2012-042 larson release document 02

8/11/2019 2012-042 Larson Release Document 02

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NATI ONAL GUARD BUREAU

AI R GUARD HI STORY

TAPE TRANSCRI PTI ON

DECLASSIFIED UNDER AUTHORITY OF THE

INTERAGENCY SECURITY CLASSIFICATION APPEALS PANEL,

E.O. 13526, SECTION 5.3(b)(3)

ISCAP APPEAL NO. 2012-042, document no. 2

DECLASSIFICATION DATE: September 29, 2014

x

I NTERVI EW OF

LARRY K. ARNOLD

19 November 2001

SECRE T

NCT0070433


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2

DR. GROSS: 11mDr . Char l es J . Gr oss, t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d

Hi st or i an i n t he Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau. Todayl s dat e i s 19

November 2001. 11m at Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base, Fl or i da, at 1st

Ai r For ce headquar t er s t o i nt er vi ew Maj or Gener al Lar r y K.

Ar nol d, t he Commander of 1st Ai r For ce concer ni ng t he t er r or i st

at t acks on t he Uni t ed St at es on 11 Sept ember 2001 and t he

r esponse of 1st Ai r For ce and ot her Ai r Def ense asset s t o t hose

event s.

* * * * *

DR. GROSS: Si r , f or t he sake of t he hi st or i cal r ecor d,

coul d you i dent i f y your sel f ?

MG ARNOLD:

Lar r y Ar nol d, Commander , 1st Ai r For ce,

Cont i nental Uni ted States NORAD Regi on ( CONR) .

DR. GROSS: Okay, very good.

MG ARNOLD: Maj or Gener al , Ai r Nat i onal Guar d, Uni t ed

St at es Ai r For ce.

DR. GROSS: Par t of t hat i s somet i mes over l ooked by t he

publ i c.

Coul d you l ayout t he f or ce st ruct ur e r ul es of

engagements , maj or organi zat i onal el ement s and respons i bi l i t i es

of your command pr i or t o 11 September 20017

MG ARNOLD: Okay. Pr i or t o 11 Sept ember 2001, we wer e

t he - - we had r eal l y t hr ee r esponsi bi l i t i es. By t he way, t o some

degr ee t hose have not si gni f i cant l y changed. NORAD i s di vi ded up

SECRET

NCT 7 434


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S E R E f

3

i nt o t hr ee r egi ons: t he Al askan r egi on, the Canadi an regi on, and

t he Uni t ed St at es or t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es NORAD r egi on.

I was t he Commander of t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es

NORAD r egi on r esponsi bl e f or ai r sover ei gnt y or I shoul d say

Aer ospace Warni ng and Aer ospace Cont r ol of t he Cont i nent al Uni t ed

St at es NORAD r egi on.

Addi t i onal l y, as Commander of 1st Ai r For ce, I was

r esponsi bl e f or or gani zi ng, t r ai ni ng and equi ppi ng our f or ces

t hat were suppor t i ng CI NCs wor l dw de. For exampl e, Nort hern

Wat ch, Sout her n Wat ch, t hat sor t of t hi ng.

A t er t i ar y r ol e t hat I had was wor ki ng f or J oi nt For ces

Command as t he Commander of Ai r For ce For ces f or J oi nt Task For ce

Ci vi l Suppor t whi ch had t o do w t h consequence management af t er a

CBRNE event , as we cal l af t er weapon of mass dest r uct i on,

Chemcal Bi ol ogi cal Radi ol ogi cal Nucl ear or Hi gh Expl osi ve,

CBRNE, C- B-R- N- E, sor t of event .

The command- and- cont r ol f orce i n the NORAD busi ness had

t o do w t h peacet i me ROE [ i . e. , r ul es of engagement ] . Those ROE

ar e pr et t y st andar d t hr oughout t he Ai r For ce. Do you want t hi s

cl assi f i ed or uncl assi f i ed?

DR. GROSS: Cl assi f i ed i f you t hi nk t hat s wher e t he

i nf or mat i on i s and we l l handl e i t t hat way.

MG ARNOLD: Al l r i ght . ROE mat t er s ar e normal l y

sensi t i ve i f not cl assi f i ed; but , basi cal l y, under peacet i me ROE,

NCT 7 435

T


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CI NC NORAD normal l y has t he r esponsi bi l i t y f or decl ar i ng a t ar get

host i l el

I E.O. 13526, section 1.4(a) I

DR. GROSS: Mm hmm Can you t al k a l i t t l e bi t about

your f or ce st r uctur e?

MG ARNOLD: For ce st r uct ur e. Our r egi on was di vi ded

i nto thr ee command- and- cont r ol sector s. The Southeast Ai r

Def ense Sect or , at Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base [ Fl or i da] ; Nor t heast

Ai r Def ense Sect or at Rome, New Yor k; and t he West er n Ai r Def ense

Sect or at McChor d Ai r For ce Bas. e i n t he st at e of Washi ngt on,

responsi bl e f or provi di ng command- and- cont r ol to those

geographi cal areas.

And what I m t al ki ng about i s t hey r un t he r adar s and

scr ambl e ai r cr af t . They have scr ambl e aut hor i t y over ai r cr af t

assi gned t o t hei r sect or ar ea. And, of cour se, we had 10 Ai r

Nat i onal Guar d [ f i ght er ] uni t s t hat wer e assi gned t o 1st Ai r

For ce, seven of whi ch wer e pul l i ng ai r sover ei gnt y al er t pr i or t o

11 September 2001, seven l ocat i ons around the count r y where they

wer e pul l i ng al er t , st ar t i ng up i n t he nor t heast woul d be Ot i s

Ai r Nat i onal Guar d Base i n Massachuset t s, pul l ed by t he 102nd,

Fi ght er W ng. At Langl ey Ai r For ce Base, Vi r gi ni a, pul l ed by t he

119t h Fi ght er W ng. At Homest ead Ai r For ce or Ai r For ce Reser ve

Base I guess now, i n Fl or i da, pul l ed by t he 125t h Fi ght er W ng.

At El l i ngt on Ai r Nat i onal Guar d Base i n Texas pul l ed by our

~ECRET

NCT0070436


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El l i ngt on uni t whi ch i s 147

t h

Out at Ol d Mar ch Ai r For ce Base

now cal l ed Ri ver si de, Ri ver si de, Cal i f or ni a, pul l ed by t he Fr esno

Ai r Nat i onal Guar d uni t 144t h Fi ght er W ng. And, pul l ed al er t at

Por t l and by t he 142nd Fi ght er Wng.

Now, I l ef t of f Tyndal l . Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base, we

had t he 148t h out of Dul ut h, t he 148t h Fi ght er W ng out of Dul ut h

pul l i ng al er t her e.

DR. GROSS: What was t he r equi r ement f or t he al er t i n

t er ms of how soon t hey had t o scr ambl e and who coul d do i t and

t hat sor t of t hi ng?

MG ARNOLD: Over t he year s, t hat s changed t o some

degr ee, but t he al er t ai r cr af t obvi ousl y t he r esponse post ur e

i mmedi at e has come t o be def i ned as soon as possi bl e, but not

l at er t han

I J

Now, year s ago, we used t o cal l i t

1 _

W th t he advent of t he i ner t i al navi gat i on syst ems, i t t ook a

l i t t l e l onger t hanl - - . . . J l toet ai r bor ne j ust f or t he

i ner t i al NAVs t o come up, even t hough t hat s not a pr obl em t oday

because of our updat ed I NS syst ems that we have.

I t has somet i mes t aken up t o 1 ~ l because peopl e

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DR. GROSS: And i n your opi ni on, how good of a cover age

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wear exposur e sui t s and we di d not ever want t hat t o be an i ssue

dur i ng peacet i me.

So we wer e al l owed up t o

_ _ _ _ _ _ 1 t o be abl e

t o r espond t o a scr ambl e pr i or t o t he 11t h.

EGRET

5

NCT 7 437


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6

f r om an ai r sover ei gnt y st andpoi nt - -

MG ARNOLD: We di dn t have ai r sover ei gnt y, we had

t oken ai r sover ei gnt y. Seven si t es ar ound t he count r y was

i nadequat e t o be abl e t o r espond. We had numerous event s wher e

no f i ght er s i n a sui t abl e l ocat i on woul d be t he end r esul t . And

t hat basi cal l y meant t her e was no way t o get t her e, f r om her e t o

t her e.

You know, t he nor t heast , f r om Ot i s al l t he way down t o

Langl ey, i t seems l i ke a l ong di st ance. I f you wer e goi ng af t er

- - i f you wer e i n t he l at t er days of t he Col d War when t he

Russi ans had been f l yi ng t hei r Bear s down t o Cuba and you wer e

r espondi ng j ust t o t hose ki nds of event s, t he east coast was

r

okay. I t wasn t gr eat , but i t was okay. You pr obabl y coul d have

responded to those events .

I f you had some t anker s, woul d

have hel ped.

But t o say t hat we had ai r sover ei gnt y wher e we coul d

get ai r bor ne and go out and t ouch an unknown ai r cr af t . w t hi n a

r easonabl e per i od of t i me - - I woul d def i ne r easonabl e per i od of

t i me, w t hi n a hal f hour , al t hough t hat s not sat i sf act or y.

Ther e was no way t hat we coul d do t hat i n ver y many pl aces i n t he

count r y unl ess the unknown happened to be cropped up.

The most di f f i cul t pl aces wer e i n t he sout heast er n par t

of t he Uni t ed St at es wher e you have 70 percent of the unknown

ai rcraf t appear i ng.

SBCRET

NCT0070438


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7

I

E.O. 13526, section 1.4(a)(g)

I

S E R E T

NCT0070439


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SBCRE:T

E.O. 13526, section 1.4(a)(g)

So. t o say t hat we had ai r sover ei gnt y was a myt h. We

had t oken ai r sover ei gnt y at best and I m not t he onl y per son t o

say that . GEN. [ Ri chard B. ] Myers when he was Commander of NORAD

[ 14 August 1998 t o 22 Febr uar y 2000] sai d t hat as wel l .

DR. GROSS: I assume t 6i s was poi nt ad but t o peopl e i n

t he Pent agon. What was t he r esponse t o al l t hat ?

MG ARNOLD: Wel l , I t hi nk t he t hought pat t er n was t hat

we wer e i n deep peace and t he onl y count r y t hat had t he

capabi l i t y of at t acki ng t he Uni t ed St at es count r y, nat i on, st at e,

w t h ai r cr af t was Russi a and t hat t he Col d War was supposed t o be

over and so, t her ef or e, we di dn t have t o wor ry about i t ; pl us

t hei r m l i t ar y was - - had been dr i ven down.

Our concer n, of cour se, had been f or some t i me about a

t er r or i st at t ack on t he Uni t ed St at es usi ng asymmet r i cal

met hodol ogi es such as a cr ui se m ssi l e or an unmanned ai r cr af t of

some t ype whi ch can f l y sl ow y but l ong di st ances and car r y smal l

payl oads t hat m ght be abl e t o do si gni f i cant damage, or t he

scenar i o I pai nt ed t o y f r om an ai r pl ane cr ossi ng over f r om

SECRET

8

NCT0070440


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BGRET

9

Mexi co or f r om some other i sl and.

So I t hi nk i t was a mat t er of pr i or i t i es and t he

Pentagon and i n some cases, t he amount of money saved was smal l .

My opi ni on i s t hat havi ng wor ked on t he Ai r For ce Boar d t hat

of t en at t hat l evel wher e - - t hese ki nds of deci s i ons ar e

pr i nci pal l y suppor ted and sol d. Most of t he t i me at t hat l evel ,

t he abi l i t y t o af f ect t he budget i s ni bbl i ng on t he f r i nges. And

I woul d consi der t he r educt i on of t he t ot al number of asset s t o

have pr oper ai r sover ei gnt y was cl assi f i ed as ni bbl i ng on t he

f r i nges.

DR. GROSS: Mm hmm But , t hat l ef t you basi cal l y

w t hout t he capabi l i t y t o accompl i sh t he mssi on?

MG ARNOLD: I f your m ssi on was t o pr ovi de ai r

sover ei gnt y f or t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es, i t l ef t us w t hout

t he capabi l i t y t o do t hat .

Now, on t he good si de, t he good si de i s t hat t he

command- and- cont r ol st r ucture, the i nf rast r ucture, the radars,

t he COM t o be abl e t o pr ot ect agai nst a t ar get com ng f r om

out si de t he Uni t ed St at es r emai ned i n pl ace. Not t hat t hey wer e

r obust . The r adar i s i nadequat e, desi gned f or FAA, not desi gned

t o l ook down, desi gned t o l ook up. They r e gr eat at 30, 000 f eet .

They were nonexi st ent bel ow I l al Ong the east coast / west

coast . I t doesn t mat t er wher e. They j ust wer en1t desi gned t o

e

~ do t hat par t i cul ar j ob.

SECRE P

NCT 7 44


10/28

SECRET

So we had ser i ous concer ns about cr ui se mssi l es and

had i ni t i ated an advanced concept technol ogy demonst r at i on, whi ch

had been appr oved f or cr ui se m ssi l e def ense. And basi cal l y

devel oped a por t abl e J oi nt Expedi t i onary Base Command- and- Cont r ol

Cent er t hat we coul d pl ace i nt o a si t uat i on, i nt o an ar ea, a

geogr aphi cal ar ea based on an event t hat we want ed t o pr ot ect .

And t hen our concept of oper at i ons woul d be t o l i nk

avai l abl e m l i t ar y asset s t hat m ght be cal l ed upon t o def end

that ar ea.

We ve never been asked t o do t hat , but we had a pl an t o

be abl e t o do t hat .

DR. GROSS: Okay. Okay. Wel l , I want t o cl ar i f y one

poi nt . You r e t al ki ng about bei ng abl e t o pr ovi de ai r

sover ei gnt y. I n t hat , as we t al ked ear l i er t oday, t hat was i n

t he cont ext of st uf f com ng i nt o t he Uni t ed St at es f r om out si de

t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es. I don t bel i eve t hat anybody ever

r eal l y was l ooki ng at what happened on t he 11t h of Sept ember f r om

somet hi ng.

MG ARNOLD: No, I don t t hi nk so. I don t t hi nk peopl e

- - you know, we t hought t her e was a possi bi l i t y of peopl e per haps

hi j acki ng ai r pl anes and hol di ng peopl e host age or put t i ng a bomb

on t hem or bl ow ng t hem up. I don t t hi nk we t hought of usi ng a

f uel ai r bomb, bei ng an Amer i can ai r l i ner , of t aki ng of f i n t he

Uni t ed St at es and t hen goi ng i n and cr ashi ng i nt o t he Wor l d Tr ade

aECRET

NCT0070442


11/28

SE RE f

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Cent er .

I t hi nk we d become - - I hat e t o use t he wor d,

compl acent , but cer t ai n i t s appl i cabl e i n r et r ospect . I t hi nk

we bel i eved t hat t he poi nt of depar tur e secur i t y t hat we had i n

our ai r l i ne t er mnal s was suf f i ci ent t o st op t hat . So we never

i magi ned somet hi ng l i ke t hat anyway. But we di d wor r y about

ai r pl anes t hat m ght t ake of f i nsi de t he Uni t ed St at es t hat woul d

per f orm some host i l e act w t hi n t he Uni t ed St at es. Our t hought

t o t hat was t hat was a l aw enf or cement i ssue.

You know, when you t hi nk of t he Uni t ed St at es m l i t ar y,

our obj ect i ve i s t o pr ot ect t he Uni t ed St at es agai nst , normal l y,

agai nst f or ei gn enemes. But , you know, when you t ake t he Pl edge

of Al l egi ance or your Oat h of Of f i ce, i t s f or ei gn and domest i c,

you know.

DR. GROSS: Al l .

MG ARNOLD: Al l . Al l enem es of t he Uni t ed St at es.

DR. GROSS: Yes.

MG ARNOLD: However , we or gani ze - - we or gani ze our l aw

enf or cement i ssues and our i nt el l i gence col l ect i on, i t s agai nst

t he l aw f or t he Uni t ed St at es m l i t ar y t o col l ect i nt el l i gence

i nt er nal l y w t hi n t he Uni t ed St at es, except under emergency

condi t i ons.

That s why we have t he FBI . They ar e al l owed f or l aw

enf or cement pur poses w t h ver y st r i ct cont r ol s t o guar ant ee your

NCT0070443


12/28

SECRE~

2

const i t ut i onal r i ght s and m ne; but t hey ar e al l owed t o col l ect

i nf ormat i on when they have probabl e cause and w th adequate cour t

order s, t hey r e al l owed t o col l ect i nf ormat i on.

The CI A, whi ch i s r eal l y par t of t he Depar t ment of

Def ense i n my mnd, cer t ai nl y par t of t he def ense i nf r ast r uct ur e,

col l ect s i nf or mat i on out si de of t he Uni t ed St at es. And t hen, of

cour se, we i n t he m l i t ar y unl ess t her e has been a st at e of

emer gency decl ar ed ar e onl y al l owed t o f i ght out si de of our

bor der s, not i nsi de.

DR. GROSS: Okay. We ve pr et t y much cover ed most of

t he st uf f i n i t em 2. I d l i ke you t o ski p ahead t o quest i on

number 3 i f t hat s al l r i ght .

MG ARNOLD: I n t he 1996 - - okay. Had t her e been a

ser i ous ef f or t t o r educe or even el i m nat e al t oget her 1st Ai r

For ce as a dedi cat ed Ai r Def ense or gani zat i on pr i or t o 11

September 01, of course.

DR. GROSS: That woul d be t heone, yeah.

MG ARNOLD: And t her e had been. I t had gone back, as

we had dr awn down the m l i t ar y - - l et me go back a l i t t l e bi t i n

hi st or y even f ur t her back. I l l go back t o 1978.

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: When t hey shut down Ai r Def ense Command

I may be wr ong a year on t hat . I t m ght have been 77. But

real l y we shut down Ai r Def ense Command and when Ai r Def ense

SECRET

NCT 7 444


13/28

SE RE F

13

Command was shut down, we di dn t now how t o do t he ai r

sover ei gnt y ms si on even t hen. So some peopl e had made deci si ons

about what t o get r i d of , but a l ot of peopl e di d not t hi nk about

t he f ol l ow- on st r uct ur e t hat was

r equ

i r ed .

So we cr eat ed t hi s t hi ng cal l ed ADTAC and real l y t he

commander of ADTAC was cal l ed the Deput y Commander of Tact i cal

Ai r Command f or Ai r Def ense. That s what ADTAC r eal l y st ood f o~.

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: Deput y Commander of Tact i cal Ai r Command

f or Ai r Def ense. Wel l , a deputy commander doesn t do anythi ng and

I r emember t al ki ng t o t he commander at t he t i me had been t he

been out t her e and I m t ryi ng t o . t hi nk of hi s name- - i t w l l come

t o me her e i n a m nut e - - of what was t he i ssue.

And he t ol d me i n a conver sat i on I had w t h hi m a f ew

year s ago t hat he t ol d t he Commander of Tact i cal Ai r Command thi s

di d not make any sense and t hat t he st af f at Tact i cal Ai r Command

i n t hose days want ed not hi ng t o do w t h any command organi zat i on

bei ng r esponsi bl e f or t he ai r def ense of . the Uni t ed States .

Wel l , eventual l y, t he power s t hat be r ose hi gher i n t he

power i n t he Ai r For ce and deci ded t hat i f you r e goi ng t o have

t o do t hi s m ssi on, t hen you have t o cr eat e a command

or gani zat i on. They cr eat ed 1st Ai r For ce. So, 1st Ai r For ce was

cr eat ed, ul t i mat el y moved t o Tyndal l , not necessar i l y f or al l t he

r i ght r easons, but moved t o Tyndal l anyway.

SE RET

NCT 7 445


14/28

~gCRET

4

And as we ended t he Col d War , but st i l l doi ng t he ai r

sover ei gnt y mssi on, st i l l r esponsi bl e f or what ever came f r om

w t hout , t her e began t o be pr essur e t o cut t he budget even

f ur t her .

And I t al ked about i t bef or e: ni bbl i ng down.

So dur i ng t he QDR [ i . e. , Quadr enni al Def ense Revi ew]

t hat was essent i al l y t he 1996 QDR, but i t r eal l y wasnl t r el eased

unt i l about , you know, l at e i n 96, [ t hat t he] QDR got r el eased.

The QDR r educed t he ai r def ense por t i on of t hi s m ssi on even

f ur t her and suggest ed t hat t her e onl y be f our dedi cat ed ai r

def ense f l yi ng uni t s and t hat any ot her r equi r ement s woul d be

suppl i ed by J oi nt For ces Command.

The good news i s t hat t he commander of NORAD at t he

t i me, GEN. Howel l Est es [ 27 August 1996 t o 13 August 1998] , woul d

not buy t hat and he f ought t o mai nt ai n seven al er t si t es at

l east.

Al so what was not vi si bl e i n t he QDR, but was behi nd

t he scenes was t hat i n t he budget ar ena t he Uni t ed St at es Ai r

For ce had t aken ever y ef f or t t o shut down 1st Ai r For ce al ong

w t h, I m ght add, 8t h Ai r For ce, and 13t h Ai r For ce because t hey

t hought t hat t hei r j obs had gone away. I can go i nt o a gr eat

deal of di scussi on about each of t hese, but 1111 st ay w t h 1st

Ai r For ce.

So f r om 1997 essent i al l y unt i l t he end of 197 and

SECRET

NCT 7 446


15/28

SE RE f

15

per haps even unt i l cl ose t o t he end of 98 t her e st i l l had been a

l ot of di scussi on about shut t i ng down t hese number ed Ai r For ces.

The bot t om l i ne was i n t he Ai r For ce t hey deci ded t hat

t hey coul dn t do away w t h t hei r number ed Ai r For ces. They st i l l

had a j ob t o do f or t hem but , even at t he l ast m nut e, what used

t o be Tact i cal Ai r Command i s now, of cour se, Ai r Combat Command,

t he st af f went t o GEN. [ Ri char d E. ] Haw ey, by t hi s t i me,

Commander of ACC [ i . e. , Ai r Cbmbat Command] and sai d, What i s

your posi t i on on shut t i ng down 1st Ai r For ce?

He sai d, I don t have a posi t i on. I s t her e a bet t er

way t o do t he m ssi on?

And, of cour se, t hat was news t o t hese f ol ks because

t hei r bel i ef was t hat t he r eason you wer e shut t i ng down 1st Ai r

For ce was because t her e was no mssi on.

They went back, t hey l ooked and t hey st udi ed. They

came back and f i nal l y, t he f i nal answer t o GEN Haw ey was, No,

we haven t f ound a bet t er way t o do t he m ssi on.

The quest i on t hat t hey shoul d have been asked bef or e

t hey ever asked t he quest i on: I s t her e a bet ter way t o do t he

m ssi on?

Or t hey shoul d have asked t hemsel ves and shoul d have

got t en a sat i sf act or y answer : I s t he m ssi on no l onger a m ssi on

of t he Uni t ed St at es Ai r For ce?

DR. GROSS: Wel l , bef or e we go on t o t he event s of t he

SECRET

NCT0070447


16/28

SECRET

16

11 Sept ember , I t hi nk i t m ght be a good t i me t o t al k about t he

RAM Team that you commssi oned sever al year s ago t o examne t hi s

quest i on of t he m ssi on and wher e i t f i t i n t he f ut ur e of t he Ai r

For ce and t he Ai r Guar d.

MG ARNOLD: Yeah. Wel l , I d had a l ong conver sat i on

w t h [ Col onel ] Dan Navi n ( Ret . ) [ Speci al Assi st ant t o MG Ar nol d] ,

r eal l y, f or a coupl e of year s about we needed a t eam t o go out

and do some anal ysi s. I t hought t hat t eam shoul d have been

sponsored by Ai r Combat Command. Ai r Combat Command. Or by the

Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau. Someone. Because we had so l i t t l e

suppor t at t he Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau al one, we wer e - - we wer e

j ust somet hi ng t hat was event ual l y goi ng t o go away and nobody

gave us much support .

So I knew t hat t he new QDR was comng up.

I t was

supposed t o be r el eased and has been r el eased, obvi ousl y, i n t he

Year 2001. And so my goal was t o do a st udy t o l ook at t he

m ssi on as we t al ked about bef or e. I s t her e a m ssi on?

And number

I

i f t her e i s no m ssi on, t hen we ought t o

di vest our sel ves of t he r esour ces and f i gur e out a bet t er way t o

use t hese r esour ces doi ng anot her mssi on t hat we have.

I f t her e was a m ssi on, whi ch I suspect ed t her e st i l l

was - - I mean t her e was a m ssi on - - t hen we needed t o have - I

asked t he quest i on: . I s t her e a bet ter mor e ef f i ci ent not

necessar i l y mor e ef f i ci ent , but ef f i ci ent i s one par t of i t , but

gECRE~

NCT0070448


17/28

SECRET

7

i s t her e a mor e ef f ect i ve way t o do t hi s m ssi on and save

r esour ces and st i l l be abl e t o do t he m ssi on?

So a study composed of most l y Guard peopl e,

unf or t unat el y, but we i ncl uded act i ve dut y peopl e f r om Tact i cal

Ai r Command or ACC, Ai r Combat Command, and f rom NORAD i n that

st udy and t her e wer e act ual l y peopl e f r om t he Rand Cor por at i on i n-

t her e as wel l as Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau and 1st Ai r For ce

headquart ers.

I chose Maj or Gener al Paul Pockmar a t o r un t hat st udy

because Paul , even t hough he was a Guar d gener al of f i cer , had

never been par t of Ai r Def ense Command and I wanted someone t o

head up t hi s st udy t hat was not l abel ed as a 1st Ai r For ce t ype

of f i cer .

And, of cour se, t he r esul t s of t hat wer e, t her e i s - -

t her e i s st i l l a m ssi on. Al l t he f our st ar s sai d so. And no

one t hought t hat we wer e goi ng t o st op doi ng aer ospace war ni ng

and aer ospace cont r ol agai nst ai r br eat hi ng t hr eat s t o Nor t h

Amer i ca.

And t hey al so di d an exhaust i ve st udy of anot her way,

doct r i nal l y sound way, of beddi ng t hi s m ssi on down f r om a

headquar ter s per spect i ve i n another numbered ai r f or ce.

And t he answer si mpl y was t he ot her number ed ai r f or ces

wer e f ul l y engaged and had pl ent y t o do.

DR. GROSS: How di d peopl e i n t he Pent agon and

SECRET

NCT 7 449


18/28

SECRET

8

t hr oughout t he Ai r For ce r espond t o your f i nal concl usi ons of

those studi es?

MG ARNOLD: I t hought i t was usef ul . You know, I m not

sur e how much vi si bi l i t y i t had, but i t had enough vi si bi l i t y

t hat

t ur ned t he t i de, f i r st of al l , i n t he Guar d Bur eau.

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: I f ound t hat f r om a per sonal i t y poi nt of

vi ew t hat [MAJ . ] GEN. Weaver , Paul Weave [ ANG Di r ect or ] , who had

never been a f oe, cer t ai nl y, but he began t o r eal ~ze because of

t he st udy and because of t he debr i ef i ng t hat we wer e goi ng t o be

ar ound f or a whi l e.

I t hi nk [ LT. ] GEN. [ Russ] Davi s [ Chi ef , Nat i onal Guar d

Bur eau] had deci ded at one t i me t hat we woul d not be ar ound f or a

l ong t i me and had expr essed t o me concer n over t he pot ent i al - -

we wer e t al ki ng at t hat t i me about conver t i ng t he Al askan 611t h

Ai r Def ense Ai r Def ense Squadr on i nt o t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d and

he was opposed t o t hat because he t hought t hat t he ai r def ense

m ssi on was a sunset m ssi on. But as a r esul t of t he Rol es and

M ssi on St udy, he concl uded t hat i t was not a sunset m ssi on. I t

may not be a bi g m ssi on, but i t was st i l l goi ng t o be t her e;

and, t her ef or e, t hen act i vel y suppor t ed t he conver si on of t he

611t h t o t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d whi ch i s i n pr ogr ess as you know.

DR. GROSS: Okay. Wel l , so much f or t he pr el i m nar i es.

Coul d you t al k about t he event s of 11 Sept ember and how you

SECRET

NCT0070450


19/28

ggCRET 9

r eact ed and what act i ons wer e t aken her e? And whom t o do what .

I know i t l s a l ong st or y.

MG ARNOLD: I t i s a l ong st or y. On t he 11t h, we had

been engaged i n a NORAD Vi gi l ant Guardi an Exer ci se.

I t was

basi cal l y a SEMEX, a command post t ype exer ci se. Then wel d been

oper at i ng - - had been i n f or about , agai n, f or f our days.

I was on t he mor ni ng of 11 of Sept ember I was up i n our

vi deo t el econf erenci ng f aci l i t y, j ust had a VTC w t h t he NORAD

staf f . The CI NC, I donl t bel i eve was act ual l y pr esent dur i ng

t hat br i ef i ng, but hi s seni or st af f was.

And, as we wal ked out t he door , I got a - - somebody had

come upst ai r s and t hey gr abbed me and sai d, We got a r eal wor l d

hi j acki ng goi ng on.

And so I r an downst ai r s t o our bat t l e cab and up t o t he

upper dai s t her e, got on t he phone w t h Col onel , [Bob] Mar r , whol s

t he Nor t heastern Def ense Sector [ Commander ] and he. tol d me,

HBost on i s - - we donl t know wher e t he ai r pl ane i s, but Bost on i s,

has a f l i ght , Uni t ed Ai r l i ne f l i ght t hat t hey bel i eve has been

hi j acked.

H

And he sai d, HI ve got t he f i ght er s on cockpi t al er t .

DR. GROSS: Mmhmm

MG ARNOLD: Now, l et me expl ai n t hi s. The pr ocedur e

f or us r espondi ng t o a hi j ack i s f or t he FAA [ i . e. , Feder al

Avi at i on Adm ni st r at i on] t o go t o t he Depar t ment of Def ense and

SECRET

NCT 7 45


20/28

S E R E T

2

r equest assi st ance. I t s consi der ed a l aw enf or cement i ssue.

DR. GROSS: Mmhmm

MG ARNOLD: They t hen, t he Depar tment of Def ense, i f

t hey agr ee t o t ake t hi s on ar e t hen supposed t o go t o CI NC NORAD.

He t hen comes down us and di r ect s us t o l aunch ai r pl anes i n

suppor t of t he hi j acked ai r pl ane.

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: You can i magi ne how l ong t hat mght t ake.

DR. GROSS: Qui t e a bi t , yeah.

MG ARNOLD: But i n r eal i t y, as soon as I got i n t her e,

Bob Mar r , he says, I t hi nk, he says, I t hi nk we need t o

scrambl e t he ai rpl anes. II

I . sai d, Go ahead and scr ambl e t hem and we l l hol d t hem

out i n 105 unt i l we get t he necessar y cl ear ance. II

I m on the phone i n the meant i me, si mul t aneousl y

t al ki ng t o t he NJ 3, Gener al Ri ck Fi nl ey, who i s br and spanki ng

new, up at NORAD. He s a Canadi an of f i cer and he sai d,

Absol ut el y, we l l go ahead and suppor t i t .

By t hem I m l ooki ng - - as I - - as we r e t al ki ng about

scr ambl i ng t he ai r pl anes whi ch was at 8: 46, t he news f l ash

suddenl y came up on t el evi si on and we saw t hi s smoki ng hol e i n

t he si de of t he Nor t h Tower of t he Wor l d Tr ade Cent er and t he

t hought t hat went t hr ough my mnd was, I wonder i f t hi s coul d be

a hi j acked ai r pl ane.

II

I al most di sm ssed i t because I knew t hat

S E R E f

NCT 7 452


21/28

SECRET

2

t he hi j ack was out of Bost on.

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: And we di dn t know wher e t he ai r pl ane was.

We j ust knew t hat we wer e bei ng r equest ed f or assi st ance. But

i n the meant i me, thi s occur r ed.

Shor t l y af t er t hat , t hat par t i cul ar col l i si on w t h t hat

Uni t ed Ai r l i ne f l i ght t hat col l i ded i nt o t he Wor l d Tr ade Cent er

was conf i r med as a hi j acked ai r pl ane. But I don t bel i eve at

t hat t i me t hat t hat wor d had got ten t o me. I t had j ust been

conf i r med; but we di d not r ecei ve t hat i nf or mat i on. And i n t he

f og and f r i ct i on of war as you know t her e, t he next t hi ng t hat I

saw was t hi s ot her ai r pl ane f l yi ng i nt o t he Sout h Tower as many

of us saw.

And by t hen, you know, t hi s was - - you begi n t o r eal i ze

t hat one coul d be an acci dent : some ai r pl ane has f l own i nt o t he

Tower . Two? Thi s l ooks l i ke some sor t of concer ted ef f or t .

Ar e you get t i ng r eady t o t ur n t hat t hi ng over ? What

ar e you t hi nki ng about doi ng?

DR. GROSS: I can t ake a l ook.

(Of f t he r ecor d. )

DR. GROSS: We r e f i ne.

MG ARNOLD: Al l r i ght . By now we begi n t o get ot her

cal l s. By t he way, t he second ai r pl ane, t he Amer i can Ai r l i nes 70

- - no, 11, yeah. Amer i can Ai r l i ne 11 I bel i eve i t was.

~ECRET

NCT 7 453


22/28

SBCRET

22

DR. GROSS: Okay.

MG ARNOLD: Had cr ashed i nt o t he Sout h Tower . By now,

we ar e get t i ng cal l s about a Uni t ed Ai r l i ne t hat had t aken of f

out of Newar k and was now wonder i ng ar ound up i n Ohi o ar ea t her e

and we had a cal l t hat t hat was a possi bl e hi j acki ng.

And so we wat ched - - we wer e t r yi ng t o f i gur e out wher e

he s goi ng. At one t i me, we t hought t hat ai r pl ane was goi ng t o

Cl evel and. He went by Cl evel and. We thought maybe he was goi ng

t o Chi cago. We t r i ed t o get ai r pl anes ai r bor ne out of Tol edo.

We t hought - - at one t i me we got a cal l f or a Del t a

f l i ght . And t hat Del t a f l i ght was t hought t o be a possi bl e

hi j acki ng;

We l ooked at t he ai r bor ne ai r pl anes we had up i n

M chi gan t o see i f t hey coul d be any hel p t o us. Nobody was i n

posi t i on. The Del t a Ai r l i nes [ f l i ght ] event ual l y l anded. The

Uni t ed 93 st ar ted headi ng sout h. We scr ambl ed we, t al ki ng t he

nor t heast [ ai r def ense sect or ] , t al ki ng t o Bob Mar r , we scr ambl ed

t hr ee ai r pl anes out of t he Langl ey det achment of t he 119t h and

headed t hem t o Washi ngt on, D. C. t o put t hem over head i n case t hat

Uni ted 93 was comng.

I n t he meant i me, as we wer e goi ng t hr ough t hi s pr ocess

o~ get t i ng t hese guys ai r bor ne, we get a cal l of a possi bl e

hi j acki ng of Amer i can Ai r l i ner 77, t he one t hat hi t t he Pent agon.

Had no cl ue wher e i t was. Di dn t see i t . No poi nt out on t hi s

SBCRET

NCT0070454


23/28

SECRET

23

t hi ng.

And t hen we get a phone cal l t hat i t s headed t owar ds

Washi ngt on, D. C. We di dn t know whet her i t was headed t owards

Washi ngt on, D. C. , f r om t he nor t h, t he sout h, di dn t know.

And, i n f act , I wasn t so sur e t hat one of t hose

ear l i er cal l ed hi j acki ngs mght have been headed down t owards

Washi ngt on, D. C. , and some ot her ai r pl anes had r un i nt o t he, i nt O

the Wor l d Trade Center .

But we t hen wat ched t he smoke go up i n Washi ngt on,

D. C. , we di dn t know wher e i t was at t he t i me. As our ai r pl anes

ar e get t i ng ai r bor ne, t hey come up Washi ngt on, D. C. We r e

wat chi ng t hi s Uni t ed - - by now we know i t i s t he Pent agon. We r e

wat chi ng t hi s ai r pl ane and we r e t hi nki ng, We r e goi ng t o have

t o out and shoot t hi s ai r pl ane down.

I n my m nd, i t wasn t even a quest . i on of ROE

I t was a

quest i on of we had had host i l e act s and, t her ef or e, we had a

cl ear ance t o f i r e.

Now, t heor et i cal l y, I t hi nk t hat i s t r ue under . our

exi st i ng ROE I t woul dn t be t rue t oday, but I don t bel i eve

t hat

I

needed t he Pr esi dent t o t el l me t o do t hat . As i t t ur ns

out , t hat ai r pl ane, you know t he passenger s we bel i eve r ushed

f or war d on t hat ai r pl ane. That ai r pl ane cr ashed up I n

Pennsyl vani a and we di d not have t o or der t hat ai r pl ane t o be

shot down.

SECRET

NCT0070455


24/28

S E R E f

24

As i t t ur ns out , t he Vi ce Pr esi dent had decl ar ed, gi ven

CI NC NORAD t he aut hor i t y t o shoot down ai r l i ner s t hat had shown

host i l e i nt ent i n t he Uni t ed St at es about t hr ee m nut es af t er t he

Uni ted 93 crashed. So t he l ast ai r pl ane cr ashed bef or e we got

cl ear ance.

I n t he meant i me - - I di dn t know i t at t he t i me, but

t he Whi t e House Secr et Ser vi ce had cal l ed up Andr ews [ Ai r For ce

Base, Mar yl and t o t he 113

th

Wng, Di st r i ct of Col umbi a Ai r

Nat i onal Guard] and Andr ews had got t en [ F- 16) ai r pl anes ai r bor ne

out of Andr ews and t hey t o f l y under neat h our CAP whi ch was over

Washi ngt on, D. C. We wer e up ar ound 20, 000 f eet ; t hey wer e f l yi ng

down r eal l y l ow and t al ki ng di r ect l y t o Washi ngt on Appr oach

Cont r ol whi ch mght have been

a

bet t er t hi ng t o do because t he

r adar s t hat wer e bei ng used by t he FAA wer e much bet t er t han t he

r adar s we wer e usi ng. Our r adar s ar e l ong- r ange r adar s as I sai d

bef or e. They wer e t al ki ng t o Appr oach Cont r ol and pr obabl y had a

bet t er pi ct ur e of what i s goi ng on.

DR. GROSS: Mmhmm

MG ARNOLD: .I n t he meant i me, t he Vi ce Pr esi dent had.

decl ar ed Washi ngt on [ DC) a f r ee f i r e zone, any ai r pl ane t hat was

ent er i ng t he Washi ngt on, D. C. ar ea was t ol d t o t ur n ar ound or be

shot down or l and i mmedi atel y.

And, by t he way, i n t he m ddl e of al l t hi s f og of war ,

. we ended up w t h 21 unknown or 21 pot ent i al hi j acked ai r pl anes.

SECRET

NCT 7 456


25/28

SECRET

25

Ther e wer e no mor e, but we wer e wor ki ng al l of t hem at t hat t i me.

We knew t hat t he Pr esi dent was down i n Fl or i da. We

asked i f we we di dn t know what he . was goi ng t o do.

Event ual l y, we asked t he quest i on i f he t akes of f do we need t o

.escor t ?

We wer e t ol d no. But t hen t he ai r pl ane t ook of f and we

got i mmedi at e wor d t hat t he Secr et Ser vi ce had asked us t o

escort .

DR. GROSS: Gees.

MG ARNOLD: And we were i n posi t i on anyway. At t hat

t i me, we had f i ght er s ai r bor ne al l over - - we wer e st ar t i ng t o

get mul t i pl e f i ght er s al l over t he count r y t o become ai r bor ne.

We di ver t ed an AWACS ai r cr af t t hat was on a t r ai ni ng

f l i ght . We had di ver t ed t hem ear l i er over t o wher e t he Pr esi dent

was, down t her e i n t he Sar asot a ar ea of Fl or i da. And so t he

AWACS was comng acr oss Fl or i da f r om t he east coast . He t hought

he was on some ki nd of an exer ci se, not a r eal wor l d t hi ng. And

we event ual l y escor t ed t he Pr esi dent al l t he way over t o

Bar ksdal e

ir

For ce Base.

We di dn t know wher e he was goi ng, t hey woul dn t say.

We l anded the. f i ght er s at Bar ksdal e Ai r For ce Base. We had ot her

f i ght er s pr epar ed t o cover . AWACS r emai ned on or bi t . We had

t anker s. We wer e di ver t i ng t anker s, scr ambl i ng t anker s i n or der

t o cover t hi s.

NCT 7 457


26/28

S E R E f

26

The Pr esi dent subsequent l y t ook of f agai n, you know,

about an hour l at er I bel i eve and pr oceeded t o Of f ut t Ai r For ce

Base and we, agai n, we di d not know wher e he was goi ng, but our

f i ght er s t 09k of f w t h hi m escor ted hi m up t o Of f ut t , had AWACS

over head as wel l . And t hen af t er - - when he was at Of f ut t , he

was t al ki ng t o t he Secr et ar y of Def ense. I r el at ed t hat t o you

t hi s mor ni ng.

I t hi nk t he l ast unknown we had was a US Ai r ways f l i ght

t hat had t aken of f out of Madr i d, Spai n, and was headed t o New

Yor k and had been r epor t ed as a possi bl e hi j acki ng.

And t he Nor t heast Ai r Def ense Sect or , wor ki ng t hr ough

t he FAA had cal l ed US Ai r s headquar t er s and t hey sai d, No. We

j ust t al ked t o t he pi l ot s and t hey r e back on t he gr ound at

Madr i d. They t ur ned ar ound. Not hi j acked.

And that was . t he end of t he bi g r un/ f l ur ry of possi bl e

hi j acki ngst hat we wer e supposed t o have at t hat t i me. The

Pr esi dent t hen got back i n hi s ai r pl ane and pr oceeded back t o

D. C. But even doi ng t hat , we wer e escor t i ng f r om t he r ear . We

had been t ol d t o st ay back. We wer e back 5 t o

m l es j ust

wat chi ng. And I t hi nk t he Secr et Ser vi ce st i l l not know ng t hat

we wer e t her e, f og and f r i ct i on of war , t ol d t he Di s t r i ct of

Col umbi a [ ANG] t o i nt er cept t he Pr esi dent comng back i nt o

Washi ngt on.

And t hey di d. They came up and j oi ned r i ght up on t he

SECRET

NCT 7 458


27/28

S E RE l

27

w ngs of t he ai r pl ane. Ther e was a l ot of pi ct ur es t aken at t hat

par t i cul ar t i me.

DR. GROSS: Yes.

MG ARNOLD: But we di dn t or der t hem f r om NORAD t o do

t hat . That was j ust Secr et Ser vi ce t ryi ng t o do t hei r own t hi ng

out t her e and t he Pr esi dent came back and l anded i n Washi ngt on,

D. C.

I n t he meant i me, we were - - we sat down w t h a map. I

j ust dr ew

ir les

around about 15 maj or met r opol i t an areas.

DR. GROSS: Nobody was t el l i ng you t o do t hi s at t hi s

t i me?

MG ARNOLD: No.

DR. GROSS: You j ust sai d, Hey, do t hi s.

MG ARNOLD: Let s do t hi s.

And we st ar ted f l ow ng ai r cr af t . We st ar ted get t i ng

communi cat i ons w t h al l t hese f i ght er uni t s. Some wer e 1st Ai r

For ce uni t s. Many - - most wer e not . And we st ar t ed put t i ng

peopl e on al er t st at us and as t hey woul d l oad t hei r ai r pl anes and

started l aunchi ng t hem i nt o t hese or bi t s up i nt o t o cover t he

popul at i on cent er s .

We di scover ed t hat t he Navy had pushed shi ps but t o sea

on t he east coast event ual l y, w t hi n t he next 12- 13 hour s,

unbel i evabl e response t i me.

[U S S ]

George Washi ngton was of f

t he coast up by New Yor k.

[U ]

J FK [ J ohn F. Kennedy] was

SE RET

NCT0070459


28/28

SECREr

28

al so on t he east coast . We wor ked w t h ADM Dawson out of 2nd

Fl eet and he r eadi l y under st ood doct r i ne. I t s a good t hi ng we d

been st udyi ng doct r i ne. CI NC NORAD had al r eady been decl ar ed t he

suppor t ed CI NCo He r ol l ed t hose f or ces r i ght under neat h us.

We rol l ed t he George Washi ngt on under t he Nor t heast Ai r

Def ense Sect or . We r ol l ed t he J FK under t he Sout heast Ai n

Def ense Sect or and t hei r Aegi s Cr ui ser s al so wer e al ong w t h t hem

and we r ol l ed t hem r i ght under t he same t hi ng. And t hat r eal l y

was wor ki ng out f r om our per spect i ve pr et t y wel l at t hat t i me.

J oe, I m goi ng t o have t o st op and get w t h you agai n.

DR. GROSS: Okay. Gr eat , t hank you ver y much.

( The i ntervi ew was adj ourned. )

2012-042 larson release document 02

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