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Re: 7.62x39 1.312 dia 151 grain cast lead load? [Re: Mssgn]

res45Member

Registered:

03/18/10Posts: 59

Ran a 10 rd. string of my above mention cast x39 cast bullet loads over the chrono

this weekend while doing some other testing.

Lee GC TL 160 gr. RNFP .312.5 dia.

case Win.

Primer CCI #34

12.5 grs. Alliant 2400Low 1510

High 1557

Avg. 1527

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Re: 7.62x39 1.312 dia 151 grain cast lead load? [Re: res45]

MssgnCampfire Ranger

Registered:01/27/01Posts: 2282Loc: upstate NY

I think I just bought a mold identical to yours on another board.

_________________________

"Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." Psalm

37, verse 4.

"The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt."Proverbs 12:27

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res45Member

Registered:03/18/10Posts: 59

Here is a pic of the bullet my Lee mold cast they make two versions both in .312

on has the traditional grease grooves mine is the tumble lube version.

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Res45 - why do you say that the max load is 15 grains of 2400. I was not having

any issues with pressure and worked up to 15.5 grains. This shrunk my groups

considerably with the .312 155 grain gas checked. Note that this may not be true

with YOUR rifle, but mine seemed to handle it fine. Just wondering what you based

the max load on. Tanks again for all the good input. I really appreciate the help!

I have loaded up some test loads with .314 sizer too (I'm using less powder on

these to start).

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39 1.312 dia 151 grain cast lead load? - 24hourcampfire http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topi

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#4190610 - 06/24/1006:06 AM

Edited by Mssgn (06/22/1007:12 AM)

_________________________


37, verse 4.

"The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt."

Proverbs 12:27

Top




Mr. Ed Harris was kind enough to share his loads with me. Here is his published

article:

Practical Dope on the 7.62x39

By C.E. HarrisUpdated 3-27-94

I have reloaded thousands of rounds of 7.62X39 ammunition with both cast bullets

and jacketed, in the AK and the SKS. I got frustrated with the AK as accuracy of

these seems is generally poor, at best about 5-6" at 100 yards. The SKS is morereasonable, about 3-4" and is still a real bargain these days. Most SKS rifles group

better with cast bullets than they do with ball ammunition. If you are new to cast

bullet shooting or not inclined to do a lot

of experimenting, I recommend 14.5-15.5 grs. of Hercules #2400 with the Lee

.312-155-2R bullet, cast of wheel weights and sized .312". With this load the rifle

functions like the proverbial pony trotting, and dumps the cases right

at your feet! You can also try 18-21 grs. of 4198 or 16-18 grs. of 4227 with any

bullet from 122-125 grs.

The gas ports on these guns are larger than they need to be for reliable

functioning. Lead fouling of the gas port is not a problem, but the gas piston and

cylinder will foul, which can affect functioning if neglected. The gas

piston should be removed and cleaned with Break Free, Marvel Mystery Oil or

Dexron IIe ATF and 000 steel wool after each use, and the gas cylinder scrubbed

with a shotgun bore brush. Liberally lubricating with Break Free,Marvel Mystery Oil or Dexron prior to reassembly eases the fouling problem.

You can fire several hundred rounds between cleanings if you avoid super heating

the rifle with rapid fire so that the barrel becomes too hot to hold in the bare hand.

If you do so, and let the rifle cool without stripping and cleaning it immediately it

will be difficult to disassemble!

I have not found lead fouling to be a problem in ordinary National Match Course

style firing, but only in factory endurance tests of the Ruger Mini Thirty when I was

at Ruger. Ruger does not recommend handloads of any type. Therefore, they don't

recommend cast bullets at all . However, in my experience cast loads about 1 grain

heavier than the minimum which cycle an SKS or AK will work in the

Ruger. These pose no real functional problem as long as the gas piston and its

recess in the slide handle are kept clean and well lubricated. The only common cast

bullet designs which are correct for the my original NEI designsfor this caliber and the Lee .312-155-2R and TL.312-160-2R. The latter two are

adaptations of my original NEI design with minor changes to suit Lee's

manufacturing process, and to change the appearance slightly so the Lee version

would have a distinct "product identity." Now that NEI is back in business (51583

Columbia River Hwy., Scappoose, OR 97056) Walt Melander can provide my

original 52A design with its 1-1/2-degree tapered forepart or a stepped-diameter

design similar to Lee's adaption, but with a blunter nose shape which is better for

hunting. Accuracy-wise there is no difference between them. I designed these

bullets with the intent to have the heaviest bullet which could be loaded without

the GC poking into the powder space, and which would be big enough on the

forepart to fill the large throats on the AK and SKS, as well as in the 7.62x54R

Russian, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, etc Use of a heavier bullet is also

better suited for the typical 10-inch twist rates of 7.62x39 barrels. These bullets

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have only one grease groove, (which is enough) and a substantial crimp groove

.26" from the base. The rear driving band casts .312", the front band .310" and the

forepart ahead of the crimp groove is .308." The ogival radius starts from this point

in order to maximize bearing length. These bullets have proven very accurate in a

variety of military rifles for

target work at up to 200 yards. They out shoots ball ammo in the SKS or AK with

any reasonable load. In a bolt- action target rifle they are capable of 1-1/4"

10-shot groups at 100 yards, and in a 2-groove 03A3 Springfield or M1917 Enfield

they average around 2 moa ten-shot groups at 200 yards with iron sights, with

refined loads.

I use 1 part of linotype to five parts of wheel weight metal for competition in my

.30-'06 M1917 Enfield and M1903 Springfields up to 200 yards with 16 grs. of

#2400, 20 grs. of 4227, 13 grs. of Red Dot or 12 grs. of 700-X. Accuracy of these

light cast bullet loads is far better than Ball M2 service ammunition. I use the same

charges in the .303 British and 7.62x54R Russian as well. I fill the grease grooves

with 50-50 Alox beeswax (Lee brand) then tumble Lee Liquid Alox on for a l ight

golden overcoat. These

loads don't lead for continuous use over the National Match Course, even over

double-strings of rapid-fire.

Above 1800 f.p.s. I use the same alloy, but cast the bullets "hot" until they are

uniformly frosted, then quench them directly from the mould. The heattreated,

double-lubed bullets will stand 2000 fps. in wheelweight alloy

without leading, if shot straight from the mould without siz ing, being GC'ed in a

.313" die. A caseful (28 grs.) of Accurate 2230, 2460, or H335 gives around 2000

f.p.s. in the 7.62x39.

Accurate Arms 1680 is very similar to the Olin 680 Ball powder, though slightly

slower. Both of these powders are used in 7.62x39 ball ammunition, with a charge

of 24 grs. being correct for service velocities with 123-gr. jacketed bullets using

the Accurate-IMI propellant, and 23 grs. for the slightly faster Olin powder. For a

full-power load approximating service ammunition you can also use 26.5 grs. of

RL-7 or 25.0 grs. of IMR or H4198. With cast bullets the minimum load with 1680

which functions the SKS with the Lee .312-155-2R is 16 grs. In the SKS this

produces about 1420 f.p.s. and 3" groups at 100 yds.; 18 grs. gives 1630 f.p.s. and

4" groups in the SKS. I did two strings with the Olin 680 for comparison with the

NEI 155-gr. cast bullet at 18 and 19 grs., respectively, which gave 1810 and 1930

f.p.s. I would not exceed 19 grs. of Olin 680, or 20 grs. of Accurate 1680 with the

155-gr. cast bullet, as these are both full loads.

The following tables provide additional test data on the 7.62x39. Jacketed bullet

handloads for 7.62x39- Lapua cases, Fed. 210 primers, Ctg.OAL 2.19" from CEHarticle in Handloader's Digest 12th. Edition, 1990, p.125.

20" P/V on Univ. Receiver. Vel. 24" Sako

123-gr. FMJ

24.5 H4198 2264 fps 48,170 cup 2377 ;

26.5 RL-7 2325 fps 52,000 cup 2451 ;

28.0 H322 2180 fps 42,300 cup 2287 ;

150-gr. SP

28.5 BLC2 2030 fps 40,000 cup 2140 ;

23.0 RL-7 2050 fps 52,000 cup 2162 ;

Accurate Arms 4th Edition for 7.62x39, SKS with 20.5" barrel

START MAXIMUM ;

123-gr. FMJ

24.0 A1680 2233 fps

26.5 A1680 2350 fps

26.5 A2230 1840 fps

29.5 A2230 2086 fps

PS Ball for comparison, velocities from SKS with 20.5" barrel Chicom 101-71 2415,

11 Sd East German 04-77 2448, 11 Sd

Edited by Mssgn (06/24/1010:13 AM)

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#4191165 - 06/24/1009:39 AM

#4191271 - 06/24/1010:15 AM

#4193362 - 06/25/1005:08 AM

37, verse 4.


Proverbs 12:27

Top


VAnimrod

Campfire Oracle

Registered:04/21/04Posts: 61128Loc: gone

Very cool.

Thanks!

_________________________

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Re: 7.62x39 1.312 dia 155 grain cast lead load? [Re: VAnimrod]



Loc: upstate NY

You are welcome

I figured that since he designed the bullet mold, I should take his advice for using

it!

He also mentioned that R-7 was a good powder choice but I think that the articlepredates R-7.

_________________________


37, verse 4.


Proverbs 12:27

Top


Mssgn

Campfire Ranger


My previous tests of 7.62x39 loads were through a Chinese SKS. Last night I shot

the Yugo SKS with various loads of Alliants 2400.

As a control I used my previous best load of 23.5 grains of IMR3031 behind the

155 grain gas checked lead bullet. These cycle well and are minute of paper plate

at 100 yards with iron sites and my poor shooting. This is the load I am trying to

beat.

I found that 14.5 grains or less of Alliant 2400 will not cycle the action with any

projectile that I am using.

But the gas checked cast lead projectile from the .312 155 grain Lee mold cycled

well with 15 and 15.5 grains of 2400. I tried these projectiles after running one

batch through a .312 sizer and another batch through a .314 sizer. Both shot well

at 50 yard ranges without any noticeable difference in my rifle. Every rifle is

different, so remember that my results may not be the same as yours. I did not

shoot them at 100 yards yet. That will be the next range session with several SKSfor side by side comparison of the 3031 load and the 2400 loads.

I really like the idea that I can get similar performance with 15.5 grains of powder

instead of 23.5 grains. Yea, Im that much of a bean counter that I calculated that

the 2400 load gets me 451 cartridges loaded per pound as opposed to 287 from

3031. So 154 more loads per pound of powder. That is a significant difference!

I also tried the 2400 loads with 152 grain tracer mil surp projectiles of .3105

diameter. I tried with loads of 14.5, 15, 15.5 and 15.7 grains of powder. None of

them cycled the action at all. Apparently the lead bullets expand in the bore

enough to generate more pressure to operate the gas system. But by manually

cycling the action I did get good 50 yard accuracy from the jacketed projectiles

with every powder load. Each 50 yard five shot group was under a 3 inch spread


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#4214470 - 07/03/1009:08 AM

#4220559 - 07/06/1005:35 AM

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Hop to: BulletCasting Go

again using iron sites and my poor shooting. With more care Im sure they would

shrink, but I am not really interested in a load that wont cycle the semis action.

So on to other loads.

Next steps try the cast lead loads at 100 yards in tenth of a grain increments,

and load up the jacketed projectiles with 2400 at 16 18 grains in half grain

increments. Buy some R-7.

The experiments continue!

_________________________

"Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." Psalm37, verse 4.


Proverbs 12:27

Top


res45Member


Mssgn I aware of the Ed. Harris load data,I converse with him by email on

occasion,if you look in the 94 data you will see where it mentions Hercules #2400

not the new Alliant 2400 some say the new 2400 is faster some say it's not. Not

having any of the older Hercules #2400 to do a side by side test it's hard to say.

Anyway I've never had to work my load up that high,I may do a couple of full loads

of Alliant 2400 at some point and see what they do over the chrono MV wise. As

far as the RL#7 I found 22 grs. to be accurate in my Chinese SKS but it slings the

brass into the next county.

Anyways Mr. Harris has since changed the numbers.

"Most up to date info from Ed Harris - 2008

Quote:

In the SKS start with 11 grs. of #2400 and increase the load gradually until you

get reliable function. Do not exceed 15 grains of #2400. You can work similarly

within the range of 13-18 grs. of 4227, 16-22 grs. of 4198, 18-24 grs. of RL-7"

https://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=5211&forum_id=8

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Thanks. I agree with Mr. Harris on his results with Alliant 2400:

"16 grs. of current Alliant #2400 is probably a bit on the warm side, but not

dangerous. With cast bullet loads accuracy goes to pot before pressures rise to

dangerous levels, so as a general rule accurate loads are safe ones."

Over 16 grains I began to see pressure signs on my primers. Accuracy did not

improve so there was no motivation to go with a hotter load.

I still haven't acquired R-7 but when I dO I'll try your load. Thansk for all the help!

_________________________

"Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." Psalm37, verse 4.


Proverbs 12:27

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