[20 SFXTM HER, 1949.) 20

7$gilatibs QvitrwL.

Tuesday, 20th September, 1949.

CONTENTS.

motion: -condolence, late Ronl. Sir JohnPa

Assent to BUis..............2204Questions : Brickworks, as to supplies for

Government buildings 2205Building supplies, as to preference to 'v

Government works..... ......... 2205Government employees, as to reduction

In Works Department .1 1..2205Vermin, as to further expertments with

virus __ .. .. .. - 2205Bills : Fisheries Act Amendment, Ir . ..... 2205

Electoral Act Amendment (No. 3), Sr.,passed .... .. ..... . .. 2205

Brands Act Amendment (No. 2), 2r.,Corn., report 2206

Buildings Operations and Building Ma-tetinla Control Act Amendment (Con-tinuance) (No. 2), 2r., Corn., report 2207

Traffic Act Ameadment (No. 2), 2r.... 222City of Perth Scheme for SuperannuatIon

(Amendments Aulhorlsatloa) (Ne. 1),2r., Corn., report...............2224

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30p.m., and read prayers.

MOTION-CONDOIENOE.

Late Ron. Sir Johtn Kirwoan.

THE OHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. ..

S. W. Parker-Metropolitan-Suburban)(4.33]: Since we last met a very great anddear friend of all of us in this House haspassed on and I would like to move-

That this House desires to place on recordits sincere appreciation of the services ren-dered to the State by the late Hon. Sir JohnKirwan, K.C.M.G., and to express its deep sym-pathy with the widow and members of hisfamily in the irreparable loss they hatve sus-tained by his decease; and that the Presidenthe asked to convey the foregoing resolution tothe members of his family.

Those of us, who were privileged to knowSir John for a long period, appreciated moreeach year his worth and the wonderful workhe had done for his fellow citizens not onlyin this State but throughout Australia. Aswe all know, from time to time he visitedthe Old Country, and when he returned fromsuch visits he was always anxious and will-ing to advise us on conditions obtaining else-where.

Sir John held the office of President ofthis Chamber for some 20 years. Prior tothat ha was for three years Chdirman ofCommittees and, in all, was for 38 years amember of this House. Earlier again, bewas the first member for Kalgoorlie in theCommonwealth House of Representatives.That is a record of wbich anyone would beproud. His achievements outside Parliamentincluded the writing of extremely interest-lug and valuable books, Also, as a journal-ist he kept the people informed. It is mensuch as he that we so much value in ourpublic life; a man against whom not oneof us has heard a word,

He always maintained the dignity of thisHouse and was punctilious 'in seeing that therules and privileges were maintained at alltimes. There were many occasions whendifficult Bills were beingo presenited to thisHouse by different Leaders, and it wasthrough his courtesy, kindness and controlof the Chamber that all measures wentthrough without any undue unpleasantness.I feel sure that all members will join withme in passing this motion that I submit,conveying sympathy to his widow and sons.

HON. E. MW. HEENANI (North-East)[4.371:- I would like to support the Ministerin the motion which he has just moved. Iwould have remained silent hut for the factthat, representing a Golddields province, Ifeel the people of that part of the Statewvould appreciate their representatives tak-ing this opportunity of expressing the highesteem in which the late Sir John Kirwanwas held by them throughout his long life-time. I had the great privilege of knowinghim all my life. His name, when I was a boyat Esperanee, was a household word becausein those days Esperance was waging a for-lon struggle for its development And theconstruction Of a railway.

I know that we, as children, regarded ourgreatest champion as being Sir Jouj Kir-.wan) in association with others such as thelate MAThomas' Walker. As I grew tomanhood I always had the greatest affectionand regard for the late Sir John, which wasincreased when I got to know him on theGoldields and later when I became a mem-ber of this House. He was one of thepioneers of the Goldfields. That is a Wordwhich connotes a great deal in the place

2203

2204 [COUNCIL.]

where we come from, and he was a constantadvocate for everything which the Goldfieldspeople thought they were rightly entitled to.

He was an extremely capable journalistand altogether an excellent advocate for theGoldfields. I am sure that it is no exaggera-tion to say that the name of Sir John Kirwanwill he cherished and will live as long asthe Goldfields continue, along with the namesof other illustrious men who contributed agreat deal to the welfare of the Goldfleldsand, indeed, to the State of Western Aus-tralia.

33ON. G. EENNETTS (South) [4.40]: 1desire to support the remarks of the Chief

IlSecretary, particularly as I succeeded to theseat occupied by Sir John Kirwan for somany years and to the gold pass that heheld. When I won the Labour selectionballot for the South Province, I was verypleased at the action of Sir John in comin3gforward and offering me some very soundadvice.

The late hon. gentleman was a greatworker for the Eastern Goldields. He wentthere in 1895 and I followed in 1896, andso we had known one another and workedtogether for many years. In becoming arepresentative of South Province, I had agreat man to follow, a man who was wellliked by all who came into contact with him.When T was in Esperance recently, expres-sions of regret were voiced at his passing,though at his age death is not unexpected,much as we may regret the passing of such

a man. The name of Sir John Kirwan willnever be forgotten in this State.

HON. A. THOMSON (South-East)[4.421: 1 wish to add my tribute to thewonderful service rendered to the State bythe late Sir John Kirwan, and particularlyto express my appreciation of the highstandard he maintained to ensure that theLegislative Council of Western Australiashould not reach the level of some otherlegislative bodies notable for the bitternessof the criticism employed in debates. WhenI entered this House after having sat forseveral years in another place, I receivedmuch friendly advice from him;, and we canall agee that he, not only as a member ofParliament but also as a citizen, served hisadopted country, doubtless with advantageto himself, but assuredly with advantage tothe State.

RON. J. Mi. A. CUNNINGHAM (South)[4.43]: As one of the younger members ofthe House representing- the province forwhich Sir John Kirwan sat for so' manyyears and served so faithfully and well, Isupport the motion. The task of filling theplace of such a man is certainly one of nomean magnitude. I did not know Sir Johnvery well, but his name was introduced sooften during my tours of the district whenfriends asked me to convey their good wishesto him, that there could have been no betterindication of the esteem and respect in which

hewas held by the whole of the people onthe Goldields. Even in the new areas hisname was well known for the good workbe did.

THE PRESIDENT [4.44]: Before put-ting the motion, I wish to express my en-dorsement of the remarks made by the ChiefSecretary and 'other speakers concerning thelate Sir John Kirwan, and especially the re-ference to his association with the Legisla-tive Council. As has been stated, Sir Johnset a very high standard in this Chamberand filled the position of President withdignity and with credit to himself. I askmembers to show their sympathy by risingin their places.

Motion passed; members standing.

ASSENT TO BULLB.

Message from the Governor received andread notifying assent to the followingBills:-

1, The Westralian Buffalo Club (Private).

2, Mental Institution Benefits (Common-wealth and State Agreement).

3, Public Service Appeal Board ActAmendment (No. 2).

4, Administration Act Amendment (No.

5, Rights in Water and Irrigation ActAmendment.

6, Water Boards Act Amendment.

7, Plant Diseases Act Amendment(No. 1).-

8, Superannuation, Sick, Death, Insur-anee, Guarantee and Endowment(Local Governing Bodies' Em-ployees) Funds Act Amendment.

2204

[20 SEr-rEtABE, 1949.] 20

QUESTIONS.

BRICKWORKS.

As to ,Sup plies for Government Buildings.

Hon. H. HEARN asked the Chief Sec-retary:

Did the State Brick Works burn specialkilns of bricks for the Old Women's Homeand other Government buildings, and if so--

(a) Was the brick output decreased inconsequence;

(b) were any of these special bricksused in inside walls;

(a) are the public able to buy thesespecial bricks?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied:

Yes.(a) No. They were burnt in the down

draft which is additional.

(b) Those unsuitable for face work.(c) No. Insufficient are manufactured

to match existing works.

BUILDING SUPPLIES.>

As to Preference to Government Works.

Hon. H. HEARN asked the Chief Sec-retary:

(1) Although the Building Operationsand Building Materials Control Act speci-fically binds the Crown, is it correct-

(a) that Government building has Dotbeen subject to the same control as pri-vate building;

(b) that Gojernsnent buildings ofsecondary importance, through hivingfirst call on materials, have been able toproceed unhampered whilst private in-dustrial eoncerns'of major importanceand housing have been held up for ma-terials?

(2) As the Government has insisted onlimiting costs on permits being grantee, .hasany such limitation been placed on Govern-ment buildingst

(3) Is there any costing system in forcewhereby the cost of any particular Govern-ment building can be establishedl

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied:-(1) (a) Yet.

(b) No.(2) By Rousing Commission-No. By

Treasury-Yes.(3) Yes

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.As to Reduction in Works Department.

Hon. H. HEARN asked the Chief Sec-retary:

What reduction, if any, has taken placeduring the past two years, in the number ofmen employed by the Public Works Depart-ment under the day labour scheme?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied:One hundred and sixty men.

VERMIN,

As to Further Experiments waith Virus.

Hon. A. L. LOTON asked the HonoraryMinister for Agriculture:

(1) Has his attention breen drawn to thestatement appearing in "The West Aus-tralian" on Monday, the 5th September,made by Mr. Dedm an, Minister in Chargeof thv C.S.I.R.O., in reply to representationstby Mr. Hamilton, M.H.R., respecting ex-periments with myxomatosis cun iculi, thevirus for spreading disease amongst rab-bits?

(2) In view of the attitude of Mr. fled-man, will be give early and favourablg con-sideration to further experiments beingconducted by the State Department of Agri-culture?7

The CHIEF SECRETARY (for the Hon-orary Minister for Agriculture) replied:

(1) Yes.(2) .Consideration is being given to ex-

periments by the State Department ofAgriculture in connection with rabbit virusdisease.

BILL-rISHELIES'ACT AXB K1ENT.Received from the Assembly an& rend a

first time.

BILL-ELECTORAL ACT AMWENDMENT(No. 3).

Read a third time and passed.

[The Deputy President took tke Chair.]

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BILL-BRANDS ACT AMENDAMT.(No. 2).

Sccond Reading.

Debate resumed from the 7th September.

RON. A. L. LOTON (South-East) [4.57]:This Bill gives very little scope for discus-sion, since all it proposes to do is to'4pro-vide a new starting aate for the registrationof brands and to limit the period of registra-tion to 10 years, at the expiration of -whichit wvillI be necessary for re-registration totake place. There are, however, a coupleof points I wish to make,

I would like to see the time limit for theexpiration of existing registrations fixed atthe 30th June, .1950, instead of the 31stDecember, because we find that re-registra-tions under 'various Acts are necessary atdifferent times of the year. For instance,a license for a motorcar expires in June,whereas a bull license expires in December.So it goes on. I would like it to be decidedthat all licenses anid registrations shall ex-pire on the .30th June or the last day ofDecember. Another point I would like tomake is this: Section 22 of. the Act statesthat-

The registrar shell, as soon as possible afterthe thirty-first day of December in each year,'cause a brand dirctory, containing all theb'ra-nds registered, transferred or cancelled upto that date, to be compiled, an.- publishedin the "Government Gazette'

I do not know whether that is being done.If it were, I think that most of the diffi-culties outlined by the Honorary Ministerfor Agriculture when he introduced the Bill,would he overcome. The Minister said thatthere are now 54,000 brands on the register.If the 'provision that I have quoted had beencomplied with, that huge accumulation wouldnot have been possible.

I note that it is necessary for a.'fee of7s. 6d. to be paid for the registration ofa brand. I1 would lie to ask whether thatwill he applicable to a person who alreadyhas a registered brand but wishes to comeunder the provisions of the Bill, or whetherit will be necessary for him to PAY onaly is.The Bill states that at the expiration of the10-year period it will be necessary to payonly Is. for re-registration; hut those peoplealready, have a registered brand, -whichapplies also to earmarks. If they have topay 7's. 6d. to register again, it woild seem

that the Bill is simply another of those pettyschemes to add something to the finances ofthe Treasury. We had several such meaaurtsin the early part of this session, dealing withtrivial sums, and their only merit was thatof collecting a few paltry pounds for theTreasurer. I do not think it should benecessary for anyone who has at registeredbrand and has complied with the require-ments of the Act to make further applica-tion and pay an additional 7s. 6d.

Unfortunately the Honorary Minister forAgriculture is not present, but I hope theChief Secretary will look into the matter andgive the House some satisfaction on thispoint. The parent Act stipulated that theState should be divided into two or moredistricts and that the same brands could heused in both districts, subject to the appro-val of the registrar. I have made inquiriesand have been advised by the registrar thatth-e State has not been divided in that way,although provision for it exists.

I regret that the Bill has not a widerscope, because I think the time has arrivedwhen consideration should be given to thecompulsory branding of sheep. Such legis-lation has been introduced in New Zealand,whore it is now an offence to put wool,branded with an approved branding material,in with other wool, and this State couldhave a similar provision. However, I havepleasure in supporting the Bill.

HON. H. TUCKEY (South-West) [5.3]:-I agree, with Mr. Loton, tbat stoekownersshould not be expected again to pay for theregistration of their brands. I take it thepurpose of this Bill is to facilitate mattersfor the department. The register is in abad state and the department is right intryting, to do something about it as there arescores of brands that have not been usedfor many years, but I do not think a stock-owner should be asked. to pay aL further fee.of 7s. 6d. A nominal charge of is. forre-registration would be sufficient. It is al-ready obligatory to brand one's sheep andit is unlawful to send unhranded sheep toa saiyard; but this law, like many others,is not closely policed and people often sendto the saleyards sheep that are not marked.I hope that when replying the Chief Secre-tary will give an assurance that the fee forre-reeisteriiig will be a nominal one of 1s.and not 7s. 6d.

'2206

[20 'SmnM~~rn, 1949.] 20

RON. G. FRASE3 (West) [5.5]: Thismay be a ease of fools rushing in -whereangels fear to tread, as I do not know muchabout brands, but when introducing theBill the Honorary Minister for Agriculture'said there were something like 54,000brands on the register. The Bill gives theregistrar. power, after 1950, to cancel theregistration of ownership of any brand.The users of brands are all over the Stateand it is more than likely that some ofthem will know nothing about this amend-ing legislation. It is also poosible thatin consequence many will not apply for re-registration.

With 54,000 brands on the register, ifthe registrar' cancels all those not re-appliedfor by the owners in 1950, it is possiblethat a number of brands still being usedby the owners will be re-allocated to newapplicants, and that could lead to. manycomplications. Is it the intention of thedepartment to notify individually the per-sons whose brands are being cancelled9'Many of them may be deceased personswho have not used their brands for years.But there should be some safeguard pro-vided s& that, the department, after a rea-sonable lime, should communicate with allwho have not applied for re-registration.That would go a long way towards pre-venting duplication of brands.

I do not think there are more than threeor four people in my own district who eversee the "Government Gazette'' in whichsuch notifications are made. I have oftenhad complaints that notices of a public na-ture are published only in the "Gazette."In such cases they might as well not bepublished -at all, in view of the very smallnumber of people who sce'*hat publication.I hope that when replying the Chief Sec-retary will tell the House what means areto be adopted for notifying persons 'whencancellations are made.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY .(fon. H.S. W. Parker-M.Netropolitani-Snburban-in reply) [5.93:- I cannot follow the argu-ment of M1r. Loton, who said that the datelaid down was the 31st Deeember, 1950. Theprovision in the Bill reads-

The registrar may, whether he does or doesnot comply with the provisions of .9uhcection(1) of this section, cancel the registration ofthe ownership of any brand which is not re-registered during the decennial year -next fol-lowing the year of its allotment.

So he can do it at any time during theyear 1961.

Hon. A. L. Lotan: I asked why theyshould not register on the 30th June 'in-stead of at any time during the year.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Obviouslythe man who goes on the land in March-wishes to get a brand straight away, with-out waiting till June, and he must paya fee of 7s. Od.-that includes an earmark-and it is his forever, or until the registrardoes certain.- things, The Bill provides-

Re-registration of the ownership of brandsmay be applied for and effected in the mannerprescribed and on payment of a fee of Is. fornil brands shown in the register as used byeach owner on any one run or farm.So there is no 7s. Gd. involved in this case.That is for the original application only.Mr. rser said that under the Bill theregistrar could, apparently wipe an ownerentirely off the slate, hut that is not so;and I do not think the hon. member hasread the relevant section of the Act, whichgives the owner adequate protection as re-gards cancellation.

Hon. G. Fraser: The amendment givesthe registrar power to cancel the registra-tion.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: The reasonfor that is that there are so many brandsregistere ,d and many of the owners may.no longer be available to have noticesserved on them. I admit that there couldbe some abuse, but it is not likely. Eventhough a mistake might arise now andagain, it could easily be rectified. The pas-tdralist watches his own brand and thoseof other people closely. I do not think thequestions raised by members during thesecond read ing debate need cause them anyfear, as the matters they referred to areall cleared up in the Bill.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In Committee.

Bill passed through Committee withoutdebate, reported without amendment andthe report adopted.I

BILL-BUILDING OPERATIONS ANDBUILDING MATERIALS CONTROL ACT

AMENDMENT (CONTINUANfCE)(No. 2).

Second Readinzg.

Debate resumed from the 6th September.

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[COUNCIL.]

EiON. A. THOMSON (South-East)[5.15]: When I was in another place I re-member the introduction there of the In-dustries Assistance Act. It was said to bemerely a temporary measure, the object ofwhich was to help the agricultural industry.If my memory serves me aright, for 44years we haxe had Bills submitted annuallyto continuie the operations of that measure.I am inclined to think that the Bill beforeus is one that will seek to continue the prin-cipal Act for a similar period. We are toldthat so many houses are required and thatartisans are not available, as a result ofwhich it is necessary to restrict buildingoperations.

When this legislation was before theHouse previously, I opposed it in manydirections. The Act contains a provision*that no permit is required in respect ofwork the cost of which does not exceed £E50.Is it not amazing-I put the query withregret-that the Government has not madeat least some effort to improve the position?We know that, wages 'have gone up; the 40-hour week has been instituted; it is difficultto obtain materials. I have closely investi-gated the whole matter and I find thematerials in respect of which we are mainlyin short supply for building purposes, haveto be obtained from the Eastern States andare mostly manufactured from steel. Mostdecidedly the adverse effects of the recentstrike arc having their repercussions here inthe retarding of building operations. I do notthink one could buy a sheet of iron today inWestern Australia.

'Hon.' 0. Fraser: You could not do sobefore the strike, let alone afterwards.

Hon. A. THO-MSON: Yes; there werecertain supplies available, and it is uselessto try to cover up the position in that way.

Hon, G. Fraser: I am not frying to dothat.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order!

Hon. A. THOMSON: I do not want tocross swords with Mr. Fraser, but we mustface facts. It is certainly time people inWestern Australia did so, in view of thepresent situation. At Albany during theweek-end I discussed matters with a gentle-man interested in building operation§-. andwe called at every shop possible beforeleaving Albany but wve could not get anyiron at all, On the way up we called at each

store we passed, and the reply was alwaysthe same-they had not seen any nails forages. It is useles to say that the strike hasnot affected the position.

Hon. 0. Fraser: I merely said that itdid not represent the whole trouble.

Hon. A. THO'MSON: It did, to a greatextent, I suggest to Mr. Fraser that heshould visit the shops in the city and ascer-tain how much rod steel there is in thisState.

Ilon. R. J. Boylen:- That position appliedbefore the strike.

Ron. A. THOMSON: The shortage wasaccentuated by the strike. People here suf-fered great discomfort regarding lack ofcoal, which was due to the strike. The factremains that most of the lines that are inshort supply here are produced in theEastern States.

Hon. G. Fraser: What about bricks?

Ilon. A. THOMSON: An ample supplyof bricks could be manufactured in thisState.

Ron. G. 1Fraser: But it is not.

Hon. A. THOM1SON: Anid I am wonder-ing whose fault it is. We kno-*v manymigrants are coming to this State, and Icertainly 'welcome them. On the other handdo we find the Commonwealth Governmentmaking any attempt to train returned menin the manufacture of bricks?1 It may bedoing so, but the fact is not apparent, Inthe couintry districts the people are sufferingin consequence. The whole trouble is that,owing to war restrictions, we have becomemore or less accustomed to being orderedhere, there and everywhere, to being toldwe must get a permit for this and that-and so the people are disgruntled, but merelysay, "What is the use?" I am sure that wecould produce all the bricks we require inWestern Australia. We have the necessarymaterials, and all we want is the requisitelabour.

Hon. G. Bennetts: That is not the positionon the Golddlelds. The people there cannotget the materials.

Hon. A. THOMSON: Let us make a com-parison. On many ocoasions in this House Ihave spoken of the lack of opportunity formany of our returned soldiers to learn atrade. Unfortunately today the excuse is ad-vanced that no more traineesz can be taken

[20 SEnuE~EuR, 1949.] 20

on because of the shortage of materials. Inthosae circumstances, it is asserted that wemust conserve what we have so that therewill not be too many requiring the use ofbricks. Compare that present- day treat-ment of our returned men with what hap-pened in the past. The Commonwealth Gov-ernment is mainly responsible for the posi-tion and the unions are also to blame inthit these men are not ailowed to be trained.In effect, a close preserve is assured for anumber of people, which reacts againsttheir fellow citizens and even against theinterests of the workers themselves

When immigrants arrive in this country,the Commonwealth Government assures themthat if they go into the rural areas they willbe paid full award rates and so forth. Thatis all right so far as it goes, hut our ownmen, who served the country well, are notable to secure full award rates and, in fact,are not permitted to work at all because ofall these restrictions from whicht we,' are suf-fering. Not only can this State produce allthe bricks required locally, but we are morefavourably situated than any other part ofthe Commonwealth with regard to timbersupplies for house building.

I desire to pay aL tribute to the Govern-ment for the very excellent work it has donein co'nncction with the housing scheme, par-ticularly within the limitations imposedupon it and in consequence of the opera-tions of the State Housing CommissionWith regard to the latter, I prophesied thatit would grow into a huge department.Never before was a prophecy more bornenut by the facts. The Housing Commissionhas developed into a huge departmentmainly because of this legislation. I opposedit when it was first introduced, and at thattime I was accused of psaking an attack onthe then secretary of the Workers' HomesBoard. I had no such intention, hut therewas no use my saying so. I was supposed tobe antagonistic to Air. Bond. I oertainlyam not opposed to the Commission, hearingin mind the limitations imposed upon itsoperations.

The Commission has done splendid work,but nevertheless it has grown and grown.The result is that, under present-day condi-tions, all incentive has been lost. When thelegislation wns originally before ParliamentI advocated-and I repeat it today-that itshould be made possible for people who had

the desire and could get the requisite ma-terials together, to do what was, possible inWestern Australia 50 years ago. A manshould be able to buy a small block and startoff with the -erection of a couple of rooms,adding to the dwelling from time to timeuntil in the end he would have a comfortablehome. I could take members round CottesloeBeach, South Freman tle and elsewhere, andpoint out to them hundreds of homes thatbad been started in such a manner.

Nowadays, however, with all the restric-tions and hampering conditions, we compelmen to wait until such time as permits aregranted and they can eventually occupyhomes, but they have to ask themselveswhether they can afford the 35s. a week theyare called upon to pay. Nevertheless theyappreciate that they have to face up to thesituation. It would have been much betterhad we assisted such men to build -their ownhomes, gradually adding to them' until theycould meet their requirements, They wouldthen be in a position to -live much morecomfortably than they have been doing dur-ing the last three or four years, In myhumble opinion, the present restrictions im-posed on building operations are most detri-mental.

I agree with what Mr. Frase~r said -whenaddressing this house two or three. yearsago. He then produced a plan, with factsand figures, and pointed out that at thattime the building of houses was to cost £100more than should have been charged. Ifthat applied then, how much more does itapply today? I shall vote against the secondreading of the Bill unless the Minister, whenreplying to the debate, is able to advancedefinite concrete proposals as to the reliefto be accorded in the future.

Is it not farcical that men in the ruralareas have to apply to the Housing Com-mission for a building permit, and the Com-mission has then to apply to the local au-thority for its approval. Such circumlocu-tion isno good. Surely to goodness the localadthorities, which have taken care of build-ing construction over the years, are justas anxious today to see that the right typeof building is erected.

Hon. G. Fraser: They are stopping a lotof construction today in many districts.

Hon. A. THOM§ON: The ratepayershave the remedy in their own bands. I couldnot imagine anyone on the Gold fields object-

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210[COUNCIL])

ig to such accommodation, nor could Iimagine anyone doing so in the province I.represent.

Hon. G. Fraser: The ratepayers have notgot it in their own hands while there is.plural voting.

Hon. A. THOMSON: I want to makemy position quite clear. I1 have no inten-tion of making a long speech. Every mem-ber has made up his mind how he will vote;but the 'Minister must be able to convinceine that even one more house can be builtwhile the present restrictions on buildingmaterials continue before I will alter mydecision. What is actually happening to-day? In all good faith, the Housing Com-mission approaches responsible contractorsin the metropolitan area and says, ''Willyou build 40 or 50 houses"' They reply,''Certainly, we wil.'' What do these eon.tractors do then? They immediately givean order for 1,000,000 bricks, and SO We findthe brickwork& cluttered up with orderswhich, if We were able lo dissect them,would disclose that the demand was not asgreat as it might appear to be on the sur-face, as all the bricks are not immediatelyrequired.

The Government should encourage inevery way possible the construction of brickcottages in the country instead of timberand asbestos houses, as in the latter casethe greater part of the material has to bebrought to the country from the mills orthe metropolitan area. All that could beavoided if the buildings were constructedof brick. There are many other pointsupon which I could touch, but I shall. makereference to only one more. 'Mr. Simpsonand Sir Charles Latham quoted extensivelyfrom a plan which showed that a bnsinessfirm could build houses which would pro-vide comfortable accommodation for 90 percent. of the married men who at presentwere living under adverhe conditions, thecost being £700 to £800.

We' should aim at reducing the cost ofbuilding, yet we find that it ig constantlyrising; it was £1,200, now it is £1,750. Whopays for the increase?9 Not you or 1, Sin.it is the working man who has to occupy thehomes that is called npon to pay a rents!of 35s. or 36is. per week. If he were allowedto build a self-help home with a couple ofrooms, and a jean-to, much of the difficultywould be overcome. All he would have

to do would be to send in a plan to a localauthority and say, "This is the plan ofthe house I propose to build and it will costtue so much. By building this portipn only,I shall reduce my cost to a minimum. "

lion. G. Fraser: Some road boards willnot permit that to be done.

Hion. A. THOMSON: The point is thatwe are all compelled to do certain thingstoday, and therefore we should compel thelocal authorities to face up to the position.

lion, H. Rearn: Uniform bylaws!

Hon. A. THOM1SON: That might over-come the difficulty. I want the cost ofhousing to be reduced; but as far as I cansee there is at present not a dog's chanceof its being reduced even by one penny.Rather, it is gradually creeping up. Whatwill be the position of people in years tocomne'? What hope will the man on thebasic wage, or a man with a decent marginover the basic wage, have of paying hisrent and gradually reducing his principal!What hope will he have of owning thehouse in his life-time!I I would not like toke facing sueft a position.

Under the Workers' Homes Scheme,workers, had a much better chance of secur-ing a home at less cost and of a muchbetter type than is being built today.Should the Bill be defeated, I amt of opinionthat things will adjust themselves. I shallcertainly not vote for the Bill unless Iknow whether the Government intends toease the controls. Let the local authori-ties do as they did in pre-war days andagree to the building of homes in the wayI have already mentioned. Finance can beraised.

We know that the Commonwealth Bankhas frozen millions of pounds of the privatebanks' money. I am certain that the pri-vate banks would be only too glad to lendnut that money on long-range terms at fourand a half per cent. They would jump atthe opportunity. In fact, it is what theCommonwealth is doing today. It is usingcheap money. There is -no shortage ofmoney, but there is a shortage of buildingm~aterials, which IF think will ultimatelyadjust itself. Unless the Minister givesme substantial reasons, by making somedefinite announcement of what the Govern.ment proposes to do in the way of easingthese restrictions, I must vote against themeasure.

2210

2231[20 SEFXHEB, 1049.]

HON. A. L. LOTON (South-East)[5.38]: When I asked members approxi-mately eight weeks ago to agree to the ad-journmenL- of the second reading of thismeasure for five weeks, 1 was hopeful that,if the motion were successful, its passingwould vonvey to the Government the atti-tude of members of this Chamber towar4scontrol of building materials. Up to a pointI think I can claim that 1 achieved a certainmeasure of success; because I anm led tobelieve that a special Cabinet meeting wasicalled the next morning to discuss, I under-stand, the housing position. I might onlybe guessing, of course, but my guess is asgood as anyone else's. A special meeting ofCabinet was tailed, and I was hopeful, asI think every member of this Chamber was,that the Governmeit would make an an-nouncement with respect to the easing ofcontrols.

Hon. G. Fraser: Did you say "every mem-ber of this Chamber"'?

Hon. A. L. LOTON: Most members ofthis Chamber;, I am sorry, Mr. Fraser. Un-fortunately, the Government did not makean announcement. Despite the fact that theBuilding- Industry Congress and the countryroad boards and, municipalities all held meet-ings and passed resolutions favouring theeasing of controls, we have had no announewent from the Government on the subject.'

Hon. A. Thomson: Mr. Playford in SouthAustralia granted an exemption.

Hon. A. L. LOT ON: I was going to men-tion that. During the last fortnight we haveheard of the easing of controls in NewSouth Wales, South Australia and Victoria.

The Chief Secretary: Do you mean coil-trols or permits?

Ao.A. L. LOTON: Permits. The easingof permits would mena aigo ontrols.

The Chief Secretary: I am afraid it wouldnot.

Hon. A, L. LOT ON: I shall read to theHouse a cutting from "The West Australian"as follows

Adelaide. Sept. 16.-To make the control ofhouse building as liberal 'as possible, a Billwould be introduced in the State Parliamentto allow house building up to L3.500 withouta permit, said the Premier (Mr. Playford) in abroadcast tonight.

'Under the Bill, any person could build ahouse for his occupation on his own land solong as the area of the house did not exceed

1,200 square feet. Other buildings, such ashotels, theatres, shops, factories, etc., wouldstill Le subject to strict control.

Hon, G. Fraser: Provided the person gotthe materials.

Hon. A. L. LOTON: That is all we wantin this State. Let people use initiative andsecure the materials, instead of having toapply to the Ho using Comm~ission for apermit- and lose much time in writing letters,which always seem to be necessary. Eventhen he may find that some other personwho put in a permit later has been fortunatepnoug-h to secure a home before he has.I have not changed my opinion on this Bill.I think that if some of the controls werelifted many more people would be gettinghomes, and that is what I Am interested in.

I want to see persons occupying their ownhomes. I do not care how small they are,so long as the J)eople own them. I do notwish to see people making application forCommonwealth rental homes;, I want themto get to work and build their own houses.1 have been told today that some of themen who have taken advantagre of theServicemen's Land Settlement Scheme arepaying as much as four figures for theirdwellings. From what I beard, someu ofthem are not prepared to accept a home with

-such a heavy indebtedness on it. I do notknow what the Chief Secretary wiU have tosay in reply, but it will have to be some-thing convincing- before a considerable nukn-ber Of members of this House will changetheir opinions on this measure. I shall voteagainst the second reading.

HON. R. J. BOYLEN (South) [5.45]:I support the second reading of the Bill.I consider that the lifting of controls wouldmake it impossible l'or the average personever to get a home. They should he con-tinued uintil sach time as the supply equalsthe demand. On the Goldields, the irk ofbuil ding materials has probably been moreapprnt than in other country areas or themetropolitan area. In some instances, con-tractors have laid the foundation blocksand, because of their in ability to procureother materials, have had to wait for weeksor months before continuing. I have Knownhouises to be almost c6mpleted, but notfinished because a fe~w materials we're stillrequired. In one instance, four houses were

2212 [COUNCIL.]

practically completed, but could not be in-halited because water piping was not avail-able.

If the controls were relinquished, a chaoticstate of affairs would exist throughout theState. The Government has realised thenecessity for controls by reimposing themin connection with bricks and cement. Ittimber and other materials were decon-trolled, it would be found, between the timeof their decontrol and the reimposition ofcontrol, that a good deal of hardship wouldbe felt by people requiring homes. ManyGoldfields homes, as well as those in countrldistricts, are built of wood and iron. 'Somehave been erected for 40 or 50 years, andare today in need of repair.

Most, of the houses built on the Gold-fields 40 years ago have white flooring, whichis now wordi out or so affected by whiteants as to need replacing. Many of thoseplaces are unsafe as a result. Although onlya small quantity of timber is required toput them into proper condition, it is becom-ing increasingly difficult to get materials.I am certain the situation is being watchedvery carefully by the 'Housing Commission.I do not know what might happen withdecontrol.

Hon. H. Hearn: Things might improve.

Hon. R. J. I3OYLEN: They might not.Many married couples attempting to rearchildren are forced to live with their parents.It is not fair to the older generation, or tothe younger generation, either. MKany peopleliving in these circumstances would havemore inducement to have children if theyhad their own homes, The country wouldnot then be robbed of future citizens, andwe would not need to concern ourselves somuch about immigration. If the controlswere lifted, there would he an inducementfor building materials to be used for pur-poses other than home construction. Theywould most certainly be used to improvebusines.4 premises. While that may be ofadvantage in some circumstances, it wouldDot generally be a necessity. They wouldprobably be used for building seaside cot-tages, which would be occupied for only oneor two months of the year. Their construe-

tion would retard the building of homes inwhich people would reside for 12 months ofeach year.

The people making the sacrifice are theones we represent here. There will be ahue and cry. if controls are not reimposed,for some time to come at least. Permitskhold be available for the erection ofsmaller-homes, similar to what Mr. Thomsonmentioned a few minutes ago. People couldspend £500 to £700 on a house and then, astheir family got larger, they could applyto have the home enlarged, if, by that time,control had not ceased altogether.

Y know of a young woman and two child-ren who live with her parents on the Gold-fields. They have had to accommodate herby turning the diningruom. into a bedroom.Her husband, a returned soldier, is a medi-cal ease under the Repatriation Commission.He is doing a rehabilitation course in Perthand earning about £5) 15s. a week, and hasbeen waiting to get a Commonwealth-Staterental home. His doctor stated recently thatbe hesitated to say where the man wouldfinish as he was becoming neurotic becauseof the separation from his wife and child-ren.I

There are many such instances. Numbersof people who have worked on the fields alltheir lives are anxious to retire to a seasideresort. Esperance is the one most favouredby the people I repriesent. If building.materials were decontrolled, those people,would have no chance of getting to thecoast. For these and other reasons, I pro-pose to support the second reading.

.THE CHIEF SECRETARLY (Ron. H.S. W. Parker-.Metropolitan-Suburban-inreply) [5.56] : The remarks of members havebeea very interesting, but I fear their know-ledge of the difficulties of the housing posi-tion is somewhat meagre. No-one can pos-sibly deny the deplorable shortage ofdwellings, but much credit must be given tothe Miinister for Housing and the Commnis-sion for their efforts to overcome the short-ages of labour. The officers of the StateHousing Commission and the Minister havea far reater knowledge of the position thancan be expeted of any member of Parlia-went.

Hon. A. Thomson: That is absolute rub-bish!

2212

[20 Sans~m, 1940.] 21

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order I

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am sorryif the Commission and the Minister forHousing, have not more knowledge than thehon. member, because be has not made hisknowledge available to them.

Hon. H. L. Roche: They would not listento him if he did.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Did the hon.member try it?

Hon. H. L. Roche: I bare not the know-ledge he has.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am pleasedto see that there is one hon. gentleman whoso much criticises the Commission, who' hasnot its knowledge, and admits it.

Hon. A. L. Loton: The hon. member didnot say that.

Hon. H. L. Roche: Let the Minister go.The CHIEF SECRETARY: I ask mem-

bers to be kind enough to allow me to ex-plain the facts. Some have been good enoughto s~ay they will listen to me, and, perhaps,support the Bill. I say without hestitationthat Do-one has a better knowledge of theronditions regarding the deplorable lack ofdwellings than has the Housing Commissionand the Mipistpr for Honsing.

lion: A. Thomson: You said, more thanmembersi of Parliament, and I took excep-tion to that-

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I repeat, agreat deal more than many members of Par-liament. As members are aware, a full-timecchairman has been appointed, and he is amain of out-standing ability as, an organiser,and with a full knowledge of the require-ments of urban and rural areas. The verybest advice is always sought by the Mlinisterand the Commission. Not long ago, some250 people connected with the buildingtrade-builders, merchants and architects-~met and unanimously agreed that all controlsshould continue. I think that was the daybefore the debate on the Bill was adjourned.

We cannot get better advice tha 'n that. Tattended such meetings myself. Many archi-tects and builders have their own views asto what should be done, and some seem tocome from the selfish angle. I anrnot sayingthat is so, but that is what 'it looks like.They could not agree. The shortage of ma-terials and labour is so great that it has notbeen possible to build the new hospitals sourgently n~eded, or the schools, administra-tive buildings or industrial buildings. Every

effort is being made to construct dwelings.Of course some schools must be built to keeppace with the rising population in the metro-politan and country areas. It is interestingto note that in 1947 only 97 self-help dwel-lings were built, but in the last quarter endedthe 3st December, 1948, they were beingbuilt at the rate of 1,000 per annum. So thestory unfolds.

Hon. R. It. Forrest: There would be moreif there were no controls.

Th8 CHIEF SECRETARY: The outcryabout housing is a popular one, but the onlysuggestion made to remedy the shortage isto lift controls. Have members thought ofthe position of iron products now and in thenear future? Have they thought of cement,and bricks? These matters have beenexhaustively inquired into, and we find thatiron products-baths, sinks, stoves, piping,etc-are unprocurable in Australia in anyquantity at present. Inquiries have beenmade oversea. No stone has been left un-turned to get essential materials. Takecement. The local company has hadmachinery on order for over.12 months, butit will be many months before it will bedelivered. This should double the output.

Hon. A. Li. Loton: There was a consider-able quantity available for kerbing.

Hon. Rt. M. Forrest: We see plenty ofkerbing iiq the city.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Will mem-hers allow me to proceed? We have placedlarge orders for cement in England, at twicethe cost of the local article. The cementworks, with Government assistance, havebeen endeavouring to install soine- winingmachinery, anfd it is anticipated that it willbe in working order by the end of the year.

Hon. R. N1. Forrest:- You will not get min-ing machinery now, will you?

'The CHIEF SECRETARY: We have it;we are endeavouring to have it installed. Itis coming from Wiluna, Members can sbiethe extent to which we aire going.

Hon. R. M. Forrest:- You just got it intime.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: We havehad it for some months; we have been trying&to get it installed. We cannot do everythingat once. Take asbestos sheets. We are ex-pectirig 100,000 sheets of corrugated asbestosto come from the United Kingdom. We havealready secured 5,000 sheets of flat asbestos,

2213

2214 [COUNCIL]

and are endeavouring to get more. We have'placed large orders for cement from Englandat twice the cost of local cement for Gov-ernment works, so as to limit Governmentdemands on the local product. The managerof the State Brickworks was sent to Englandtwo years ago to get machinery. Unfor-tunately, he died. A new manager was ap-pointed and he has tbeen sent to Englandby air to obtain and expedite delivery of thelatest machinery, but delivery takes a con-siderable time.

When that machinery arrives, it will meana considerable increase in the output ofbricks. The 'present State Brickworksmachinery is very much out of date, but itis anticipated that it will be able to carryon for some little while. Mention was madeof the Coolgardie 'rickworks. We, haveordered from them 1,000,000 bricks perannum, but we have not yet got one.

Hon. J. M. A. Cunningham: We were toldthey closed down because they could not getorders.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: The in-formation the bon. member gets is not al-ways correct.

Hon. G. Bennetts: They clscd down onaccount of the faulty construction, I believe..

The CHIEF SECRETARY.: I do notknow what the troflble is, but we have or-dered 1,000,000 bricks per annum. from the.Coolgardie works-

Hon. G. Bennetta: They are rebuildingthe plant now.

The CHIEF, SECRETARY: It was sug-gested there should be backloading, but thatis not a practicable proposition because wehave not sufficient locomotives. Locomotivesare being used for'the ordinary transport ofgoods from the transcontinental railway andpyrites are being backloaded from Norse-man. It was suggested that the productionof tiles was two years in arrears. That isnot so, and I understand that they are ap-proximately three months in arrears. Mr.Hearn criticised the Housing Commissionbecause of permits which were refused indifferent parts of the South Perth area, Ofcourse, tbat has nothing to do with theHousing Commission. Local governing bod-ies have the right to refuse permits undercertain circumstances, and members will re-call a Hill being introduced in another placeand the4 tremendous outcry it caused. It isnot easy to alter existing laws,

Timber has been mentioned and also theState Saw Mills. New timber mills are be-ing erected. A timber mill costs approxi-mnate £:200,000 and is designed to operatein the forest for a period of not less than40 years. It must first be approved by theForests Department because -reforestationmust keep up with cutting. That is what iscalled a "sustained policy." If we were tolet that policy go, we would wipe out ourforests in a matter of a few years. The millhouses which are built are designed for 50years' service. Unfortunately we had a greatsetback -recently because of a mill beingburnt down at Jarrahdale.

1k Hon. G. Bennetts: Would it not haveclosed down in any case? Was it not prac-tically cut out?

The CHIEF SECRETARY: NY, I donot think so. The State Saw Mills are re-quired to cut thre&-eighth inch cases forfruit as well as to provide building timbers,but it is anticipated that all shortages ofbuilding timbers will be overcame by the endof the present year. Mr. Roche criticised thecutting of sleepers. I am informed thatsleeper sawnailling permits are, for the mostpart, granted for areas previously cut overfor general sawmilling, together with somemarginal forest. A condition ofthese sleepersawmilling permits provides that the logsmnust be docked in the bush to sleeperlength-not exceeding 9 ft.-bef ore beingremoved to the Mill. It would not be profit-Qible to have any other type of mill in thatcountry. Experience has shown that effectiveutilisation of short length logs is obtainedonly by sleeper mills. As sleeper ordersrange in length from 6 to 9 ft. there is, ineffect, little waste in the bush on account ofmultiples of lengths and in general throughutilisation of remaining marketable timber.

At this stage I would like to quote an ex-tract from am letter dated the 17th March,1949, reticived from the Commissioner ofRailways, which indicates the sleeper posi-tion in Western Australia. It states--

The parlous state of railway maintenance istoo well known to need emphasising and thesleepers at present held by the department areonly a fraction of what are needed for re-habilitation requirements. Given a moderatecontingency of track workers as in prospectwith displaced persoins, all available sleeperswill be put on the road in quick time. T de-sire to stress the need of maintaining andaugmenting sleeper supplies for -use at theearliest -possible moment in order to keep our

[20 SEPTEMBER, 1949.]

tracks in safe operating condition. The rinkis that there will be insufficient sleepers forthe purpose. I have no fear of our obtainingtoo many. .

Hon. Sir Charles Lathamn: That waswrtten to prevent you from exporting.

Hon. R. M. Forrest: They are exportingthem now, are they not?

The CHIEF SECRETARY: A certainnumber are being exported but I want toimpress upon members that sleepers aretaken from cut-out forest~s, as a rule. Muchof this timber comes from private propertyover which we have no control. The-exportof sleepers has nothing to do with the For-ests Department, and therefore we cannotprevent it. We hmnot prevent them fromkoing to other States or the Commonwealthbecause that is a, matter for the Commin-wealth. Conferences have recently been heldwith the timber millers and these peoplehave been very generous.. They have mini-mised their exports even though they hadbeen, in many instances, committed. Thesepeople have contracts already let and theymust be fulfilled.

At that time the Commissioner was ad-vised that in view of the existing emergencyit was expected that the railways wouldhelp meet the general timber position byaccepting a reductio~n in the allocation ofsleepers for Western Australia until suchtime as production of scantlirigs could beincreased by way of the establishment ofnew mills in the lower South-West. In orderto increase fhe quantity of scantlings forthe housing scheme, sawmillers agreed sometime ago to reduce production of sleepers ingeneital purpose mills to an absolute mini-mum, with the result that today the bulk oftlie sleepers produced in Western Australiais cut in the sleeper mills. Although in thePast a small oversea export quota has beenproduced, the time is rapidly approaching

*when the whole of the output of the sleepermills will be required for Australian rail-way services, such as those of the Common-wealth, South Australia and Western Aus-tralia, and any change from sleepers toscantlings in these small sleeper mills wouldbe neither economical nor desirable.

Hon. A. L. Loton: Sleepers on the -rail-ways will not build homes.

The CHIEF SECRETARY. That isquite evident. The shortages in iron and im-ported goods from the Eastern States havebeen intensified considerably since the coal

strike, and even though the strike has endedit will be a long while before the steel workswill produce and longer still before we canget those materials here. Two million feetof steel products are on order from con-tinental sources and it is hopdd that thefirst shipmenft of portioar of that order willbe loaded nest month. Ailso 11.0 tons ofwater piping have been ordered from Pranceand are expected to be loaded this month.'

Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Did you say110 tons T

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes, wecannot get any more. We arc trying to getit fromi everywhere. We are also obtain-ing iron and steel rods and other steel ~pro-ducts from Japan. Members must bear inmind that New South Wales, Victoria andTasmania have doubled their pvc-war tim-ber output. In Western Australia the out-put is 75 per cent, of that registbred pre-war because of the shortage of manpowerand equipment, especially tractqrs, machin-err-and steel.I

Hon. H. L. Roche: There must be somecobwebs about.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: There mustbe, but I wish the hon. member wouldbrush them away. It is necessary that pro-duction of, timber he stepped up, and thisis being done as quickly as possible. Asmembers know, many new timber mills arebeing established and we hope to catch upon demand. The Government cannot beblamed because the production of timber isonly 75 per cent. oP what 'we had pre-war. We hope that in 18 months we willhave new brick-making machinery and thatwill he in full working order as Soon aspossible. We are hoping that that machin-ery will produce 300,000 to 350,000 bricksper annum as against the present output of200,000. We are also hoping that the oldmachinery will keep going for the nextthree or four years and so help us to catchup with the lag.

Two years ago our building rate had ex-ceeded the pre-war rate and was 2,120Ebuses per annum. On the 30th June,1948, the building rate had risen to 2,921houses per annum and in the last quarterof 1948 the rate was 4,030. That was morethan double the 'pre-war 'rate. It must beborne in mind that in the second half of theyear the building rate is always higher

[COUNCIL.]

than it is during the first half. I think themeason is that there are not so many holi-days in the second half of the year.

This year we had many circumstaneeswhich adversely affected the budlding rate.Members will recall the power stoppagesand then later on we had the coal strike.We must also iemember that we now havean added burden on our housing programmebecause of migrants brought in by the Corn-monwealth Government. These people aremost welcome, but their requirements haveto be added to our housing programme andduring the yeir ended March last this Stategained an additional population of 60,178people througW migration. Between the be-gining of this current month of Septemberand the 30th June next, 1,100 families, notindividuals, will arrive, and all those peoplewill eventually have to be housed.

The Commission has evolved a number ofnew techniques in building, and this hasmeant the construction of duplex houses,expansible houses and the encouragementof owner-builder or self-help houses. Twoyears ago owner-builders were constructinghouses at the rate of 167 per annum, butfor the twelve months ended June last tbeywere constructing houses at the rate of 849per annum or five times as many as twoyears ago. Contracts have been let for400 pre-cut timber houses. They will be ofa size suitable for a man, wife and one ortwo infant children, and can he expandedlater on. Fflrther, the construction has beenauthorised of either double or four-flat hut-ment buildings and tradesmen are bein-gimported from England. Last year 1,000Commonwealth rental homes were con-structed nnd 2,228 private houses wereerected. We are very proud of the factthat in proportion to the population wehave built 50 per cent, more houses thanany other State. Pre-war, 2,000 houses peryear wvere built.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: When youleft the Chair, Mr. Deputy President, I waspointing out that pre-wvar, 2,000 houses ayear was the normal requirement, but lastyear we built 3,200. Therefore, we built1,200 houses over and above the pre-warnormal requirement. This State has beenmore controlled than any other State inAustralia. In the other States, to some ex-

tent, free building of houses has been per-mitted for some time. The most controlledof the other States is South Australia whereone-is allowed to build without a permit orcan automatically obtain a permit for thebuilding of a house up to ten squares. InTasmania one can build a house of anysquarage without a permit and in otherStates the squarage ranges from 12V2 to alarger figure.

The Commission and the Government havegiven consideration to this from time totime over the last two years, and at presentfurther consideration is being *given to itto determine whether some additional liberal-isation in building opportunity might notmake for a greater c~ntribution to the totalnumber of houses built-ia other words,whether an increased opportunity may notbring about that incentive and enterprise onthe part of intending homne-owners, thepeople engaged in the manufacture of build-ing materials and the builders themselves,who will make an addition to the total volumeof houses produced. That, however, is amatter upon which no determination has yetbeen made.

-The question of liberalization of buildingcontrols is a matter which is being studiedby the Comiion and the Government. Itinvolves many important considerations, andthe anxiety of the Government and the Com-mission is to satisfy themselves before mak-ing any extensive change of policy, that theresults will be beneficial to bomne-seekers ascompared with the policy which has hithertobeen followed and which has, at all events,ensured orderly building in the State.

The position in other States is not freefrom difficulty' . Although those States haveliberalised building permits by a certainsquarage, members may have seen in thePress last week that two members of theGovernment Party in Victoria are. demand-ing that a committee be appointed to inquireinto the Victorian State Housing Commis-sion's building administration. One of these,Mr. Leckie, declared that the housing posi-tion in Vietoria had got completely out ofhand. In the meantime, the Government andthe Commission here have been pursuing apolicy' of freer issue of permits for the smalltype houses and it is proposed to extend theissue of permits under the self-help orowner-built scheme -to approximately 1,000permits a year. This enables a small type

[20 SEPTRMBER, 1949.] 21

home to be built of seven squares under themain roof and of two squares verandahspace. I think that was what Mr. Thomsonwas suggestig he would like to see.

It should be reasonably borne in mindthat the policy pursued by the Commissionhas so far ensured an expansion in thebuilding trade at least comparable with thatin the other States and the building of Com-monwealth-State rental homes at a cheaperrate than in the other States. In this Statealso we have had a finished r~ate which hascompared favourably with other Staes andtJhe standard of our Commonwealth-Staterental homes has been at least equal-andit has beenl generally suggested-superior tothose in other States. I would further addthat under the policy hitherto obtainingthose in most need of accommodation havebeen given the first opportunity of gettinga home or obtaining a permit to build forthemselves, so that building opportunity hasgone to those who, by reason of their livingconditions, can be said to have first claim.

The Commission's new programme offactory-built pre-eut timber-framed houses,which is being developed, should make anadditional contribution to the buildingschedule. Although the Commonwealth willmake arrangements for the contrac 't pre-cutting of this type of dwelling, opportunitywill be afforded to people to hecquire pre-cutdwellings in order to erect them for them-selves. Without this BiU, there will he nomeans of controlling materials in short sup-ply such as cement, galvanised iron piping,galvanised corrugated iron and steel pro-ducts required for building purposes. Therewill be no means of making provision forcountry and northern areas or to meet thespecial needs of house builders, primary pro-ducers and others engaged in essential in-dustries.

I would like members to appreciate thatthere is no State which has not maintainedtheir Building Operations and Building'Materials Control Acts and in every, Statein Australia building materials are con-trolled. This Bill is necessary in order toensure that materials in short supply areused on -work for essential purposes andto prevent their being used for unessentialbil]ding. Queensland has an Act givingpowers of materiel control which can heexercised when required. Although the Act

provides for the control of building materialsother than timber, this part of it has notyet been proclaimed. There exists however,a voluntary arrangement under which con-trol is more or less exercised over distribu-tion so that housing receives the highestprioriy

Wide powers have been given to the ChiefController of Timber, but he h6s not yetfound it necessary to exercise them. I there-fore ask members to pass* this BiU. TheGovernment would view its defeat with thegrayest apprehension respecting the conse-quences which I feel must follow any failureto pass this legislation. I feel members willtake into consideration the views expressed-in this House for an casement of controlsin house building, and I can assure Themthat this matter will receive the most care-ful consideration of the Government andthe Housing Commission.

[The' President resumed the Chair.]

Question put and a division taken withthe following result:-

Ayes .. . . . 16Noes .. . . . 8

Majority, for

ARon. G. BenatngHon. H. J. BoylenHon. L. CraigHon. ,3. M. CunninghamHon. H. A. C. DaffenHon. E. M. DasvinsHon. J. A. Dimmit$Hon. G. Fraser

Hon. Xt.Hon. L.Hon. A.Hon. G.

It. ForrestA. LoganL. LotonW. Miles

*L... -

YMSHon. Sir Frank GibsonHon. E. H1. GrayRon. E. M. HeenanHnn. Sir Chas. LathemRon. H. S. W. ParkejHon, E. TuckeyHon. F. R. WelshEon, 0. H. Simpson

(Teller.)NOES.

Hon. H1. L. RhocheHon. A. ThosonHon. IH. K. WatsonHan. H, Hearn

(Teller,)

'wutcion Unus passen.Bill read a second time.

.In committee,

Hon. J. A. Dimmitt in the Chair; theChief Secretary in charge of the Bill.

Clauses 1 and 2-agreed to.

Clause 3-Amendment of Section 38:

Hon. H. K. WATSON: I iaove an amend-ment-

That all the words after "by'' in line 2 bestruck out and the following words insertedin lien: -''d eleting all words after the word'until' in line 1. and substituting the words'the thirtieth day of September, one thousandnine hundred and fifty and no longer.' "'

2217

[COUNCIL.]

The Bill is designed to continue the opera-tion of the Act until the 31st December,1950, but I propose to restrict the durationto the 30th September of next year. Theamendment would be an indication to the.Government to bring down next year, nota mere continuance measure, buit one toamend the Act and bring it more into line-with present-day requirements. The ChiefSecretary has intimated that we are themost controlled State in the Commonwealthin the matter of permits. Only this weekNew South Wales, in which State theper-mit system has been liberalised for quitea time, has still further extended permitsfor home building. Outside of Sydney andNewcastle no permit is required, and withinthe .Sydney and Newcastle areas, a borneup td; 1,500 square feet may be built 'with-ont a permit.

We have been told by the Chief Secre-tary that the M1inister for Hosing in-variably sought the best advice. I chal-lenge him to inform us whether the Minis-ter sought advice from the Building Ad-visory Panel on exempting up to a certainsquarage, and, if so, what was the natudof the advice and whether the Governmentintends to act upon it or ignore it. Anamendment is also needed of the amountthat may be spent on an existing housewithout a permit. The present amount isvery small, whereas in New South WValesit has been fixed at £500 without a permit.There should be an easing of this restric-tion. The Government has tried practi-cally etverything except putting into effectthe policy on which it was returned,namely, individual effort and private enter-prise.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am notaware that the Government ever said thatthe Act would continue only u~ntil the endof the year. That is the only point we arediscussingw. I was surprised at Mr. Wat-son 's doubting the veracity of the Ministerfor Housing as expressed through me thathe had sought the best advice. I am notaware whether he sought advice from theBuilding Advisory Panel, but various bodieshave given advice and much of it has beenconflicting. I attended the Building In-dustry Congress and conflicting advice wasgiven there. We cannot accept all adviceon account of the conflict of views.

The hon. member has asked that the dura-tion of the Act be reduced by three months.That seems petty. If, in May of next year,it appeared that controls should be con-tinued, Parliament would have to he calledtogether earlier than usual in order to getthe measure through by September as aconsiderable time would be occupied by theAddress-in-'reply, which must take place. Ihave assured members that control will bediscontinued as far as possible, taking intoconsideration the requirements of all thepeople for the betterment of the housingof those most needing it. The Governmentwill not release control for the purpose of-allowing, people to improve the homes they~already have. We must continlie controlwhere necessa'ry in order to house peoplenow living under such shocking conditions.If it is possible to remove control, we shalldo so.

,Hon. G. FRASER: I oppose the amend-mlent, which is a eheeseparing proposal.What the hon. member desireff could beachieved without, this legislation. TheGovernment will act according to thematerial supplies available and willsee that everybody gets a fair dealMr. Watson admits that, after Septemberoif next year, some control may he necessary.No Government would heed a protest fromthis Chamber if conditions would not permitof the lifting of control. Why tinker withthe matter and raise false hopes; iii the minds;of the people? Does Mr. Watson expertsntnepone to wave a magic wand so that re-strictions on material will be tinnecessarynext year? Has the hon. member no con-fidence in his own Government's desire tofulfil its promises it at nil possible? Dlidnot his Party promise that controls wouldbe lifted wherever possible! We have con-,fidence, that the Government would carryout its promise on the hustings if such werepossible.

The amendment would place the Govern-ment in an impossible position. Next yearwe holpe that polities will be back to normal,that the session will start early in Augustand that no gag will he applied. By theend of September, the Government will nothe in the position to introduce Bills, becauseof the Address-in-reply debate. Why stultifythe Government?

Hon. F. R. Welsh: Why worry?

[20 SIEFTEMBER, 1949.121

Hon. G. FRASER: Why place the Gov-ernment in a difficult position by prescribingthat the Act must t.xpire on a certain datewhen we know that controls will have tobe retained much longer? Why not face upfairly to the position! Rousing will necessi-tate control for many years.

Hon. R. M,%. Forrest: For 20 years.

Hon. G. FRASER: I said "many" years.*'I have sufficient confidence that any Govern.ment would release any item of material assoon as that were possible. The Governmentwill be advised by the Housing Commission.If it does not conflict with its policy theGovernment will take the counsel of thoseadvisers and in 12 months' time we shall bein almost the same position as today. Whyhamstring them? Why not let the Bill runto its usual time and, when we assemblen?2xt year, have ample opportunity to reviewthe position and make a decision as to whatto do for the ensuing 12 months? Nobodyhere can visualise that materials will he soplentiful in the coming 12 months that these.controls can be lifted. Have we not hadthe example in the past year of the Govern-ment trying to carry out its policy of lift-ing controls and then being forced to re-impose them? Someone will say that wasdue to the strike. But that is not correct,because the shortage in that particular itemexisted long before the strike occurred.

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I canunderst~rnd the hona. member expressing him-self as he did because he belongs to a PartySwhich believes in controls and regimentation.But there are members here who have otherviews. I am one of those wvho do not believein regimentation and controls, and I amgoing to support the amendment. I gave anundertaking to the Covcrnmcr4 that I would]support the second reading. I was led tobelieve at that stage that there would besome amendments that would relieve thefeeling I have that some controls were un-necessary. I have been disappointed, h ut Iam preparedl to stick to my undertaking.However, I did not agree not to support thisamendment. I do not want the Leader of theHouse to run away with the idea that it isnecessary to hav~e the Address-in-reply dealtwith before anywlegislation is passed. Thatis not the case. Standing Order 36 of an-,other places states-

No business beyond what is of a. formalcharacter shall be entered upon before the Ad-dress-hp-reply to the Governor's PpeaiagSpeech has been adopted.

That is perfectly right; but Standing Order418 provides that-

In cases of urgent necessity, any StandingOrder or Orders of the House may be sus-pended on motion duly made and secondedwithout notice provided-

The CHAiRMA'N Order! I would pointout to the hon. mewmher that the StandingOrders of another place have no associationwith the activities of this House.

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I know;but it was the other place to which the ChiefSecretary was referring when he said thatthe Address-ia-reply would have to be dealtwith.

Tb& Chief Secretary: Do we not have anAddress-in-reply?

HOn. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Yes;but our Address-in-reply has been frequentlysuspended under Standing Orders.

The Chief Secretary: WhenI

Hon, Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Weknow that there is a provision in the Stand-ing Orders of another place permitting mema-bers there to suspehid Standing Orders rotany purpose cons idered urgent. Here wehave only 30 members and short speeches,which means that the Address~in-reply canbe denat with very quickly if tb6 Governmentis anxious to get the Address-ia-replythrough. I consider that any member ofthis place who feels there is a need to con-tinue this legislation will assist the Govern-ment.

The Chief Secretary: If not, he i 4auld askfor an adjournment of the Add ress-in- replyafter one speech had been delivered; thatis, if be wanted to delay progress..

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Yes;bitt the usual customn is to meet the -wishesof h6n. members, whoever 'the Leader of theHouse is and to whatever Party he beluags.But, after all, the members of this Chamberare commonsense individuals, quite reason-able in their outlook; and they would he pre-pared, if the necessity existed, to assist theGovernment. But I do not think for onemoment that we are justified in permittingthe Government to continue restrictingpeople to the expenditure of £50 in one yearwithout a pernslt. Governments in the past

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have got Bills through after an electionquite easily. I know instances when Parlia-ment was called together early in July toenable the Government to get legislationthrough because there was an early date fixedin connection with a continuance measure.

The Chief Secretary: I take it that Youwill appreciate there will have to be an earlysitting of Parliament if this amendment iscarried?

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I do notthink so. Parliament usually meets in July.I am going to see that this sort of thing isstopped as quickly as possible. I do not be-lieve that there is any need for the restric-tion imposed today upon building materialsand permits. I can understand Mr. Fraserexpressing himself as he did because he be-longs to a Party that believes in regimenta-tion. We have bad that everywhere that hisParty exists. It applies in the Old Countryand in the Federal House and wve are gettingit in every State Parliament. Yet in#NewSouth Wales, where there is a Labour Gov-ernment, controls are being removed.

Hon. 0. Fraser: Have you been reading"Comic Cus"

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: No,but I have listened to sonec I support tbeamendment.

Ron. L. CRAIG: I cannot support theamendment, which does not mean anything.I do not believe anybody here thinks thatwe will be able to release controls by the 30thSeptember next year. Much has been madeof the lifting of permits in other States, hutwithout the lifting of controls over materialsthat does not mean a thing. The fact thattthey bave lifted permits in the other Statesonly means blackmarketing.

Ron. Sir Charles Latham: There cannotbe blackmarketing if there are no controls.

Hon. L. CRAIG: People with money whohave permits to build get materials by black-marketing methods. Anybody who has heenin Victoria and New South Wales recentlywill know what is going on. Well-to-dopeople who are capable of blackmarketingare building seaside places worth up to£3,000 and £4,000, when they already havegood homes. We do not want that to happenhere. The fact that permits have been liftedin the Eastern States is the reason we aredoing better than any other State with re-gard to building.%

Our achievements in connection with homeserected, and the quality, are outstanding.The people of this State have a lot to bethankful for to the Government for the goodjob done in housing, and I am surprised thatthis Chamber is trying to take power awayfrom the Government and endeavouring tostop it doing the good job it has been carry-ing out, suggesting that the issue of permitswill remedy matters. It will not do so; itwill only aggravate the difficulties. Controlof materials has not been released in anyother State.

Altering the date from the 31st Decem-ber to the 30th September does not achieve.anything. A'Bill will have to be dealt within the next session of Parliament in anycase, and it is not likely to be passed bythe 30th September unless we have an earlysession of Parliament. We might find thaton the 25th September the Hill would bethrown out and control, not only of per-wits but of building materials, would betaken away. Imagine the chaotic conditionthat would ensue in respect of houses inprocess of being erected! There wouldbe a wild rush from people with a lot ofmoney to buy materials at any price, andwork on houses being erected would bestopped within a day.

Hon. Rt. M. Forrest: How long wouldthat last?

Hon. L. CRAIG: It might last for a goodwhile. I cannot see any point in the amend-ment. We will have to deal with% Bill tocontinue the operation of the building con-trols in September or October of next year;and if we do not like it and throw themeasure out, at least there will be a month'sor two months' notice. To say that thesecontrols shall end in September will causegreat emb arrassment to the Government,and I do not think members on our side ofthe Chamber should seek to do that.

lion. H1. L. ROCHE: I support the amend-ment because, if it is carried, it will be anindication to the Governmnent that the ma-jority of members would like to see some-thing worthwhile done by the Admninistra-tion to remove controls and restrictions onbuilding.

Hor. G4. Fraser: Put it lip as a noticeof motion and get it carried like that in-stead of in this round-about way.

2220

[20 SEPTrEBE, 1949.] 22

Hon. 11. L. ROCHE: There is nothinground-about in this amendment. Mr. Frasercould have seen it on the notice paper, ex-cept that September has been substitutedfor June. It seems to me that the Govern-mnt has not been able to fulfil its pro-mises regarding housing, and from the as-surances we have had from various Minis-ters, particularly the Minister for Housing,the UJovernmcnt appears to have triedeverything except the one principle onwhich it is reputed to stand. That principleis apparently not one to which it sub-scribes.

Hlon. G. Fraser: The Government foundthat circumstances were such that it couldnot carry out the promises it had made,that is all.

Ilon. H. L. ROCHE: That might be thereason. It is not the same as that whichactuates the hon. member's Party, whichbelieves in controls for the sake of con-trol.

Hon. G. Fraser: Who told you that yarn?

Hon. H. L. ROCHE: The Governmenthas not been asked to release all controls.It has been asked by members here and byinstitutions outside to release controls onthe cheaper types of houses, and it is notlprepared to do so. It is afraid to try tostimulate building by releasing some of thecontrols. I suggest that when Mr. Watsonqueried the sources-if he did query them-to which the Minister wvent for his advice,whehi reference was made to the best ad-vice possible, he meant that there was somequestion as to whether the advice obtainedwas the best.

Hon. H. K. Watson: The question iswhether, the advice having been received, itwas followed.

Hon. H. L. ROCHE: I wonder whetherthe advice of the Builders' Advisory Panelat the Housing Commission is the best avail-able to the Minister. Over a year ago, Iheard that panel had recommended an cas-ing of the controls, but that has not beenimplemented. I understand that lately theymade other recommendations, but on thisoccasion apparently the Minister changedtheir minds for, them. I support the amend-ment.

Hon. H. TtJCKEY: T do not think themajority of members are satisfied with allthe controls under this legislation and I do

not think that this amendment, if agreed to,would embarrass the Government. We willprobably meet in July next year and thatwould allow three months before the measureexpired, giving whatever Government mightbe in power time to bring down a furtherBill, if necessary.

The Chief Secretary: How do you makeit three months?

Hon. H. TTJCKEY: This measure is soimportaint that even it it meant calling theHouse together earlier thah usual, that wouldhe justified. Tonight wve have been toldabout certain people in Perth having all theknowledge, but there is great opposition tothese controls throughout the State. Thereis no guarantee of what is likely to happen.If the Commission, in its wisdom, wished toease the controls, it could do so; but, other-wise, tbe present position will continue nextyear. I have previously protested againstcontinuance Bills, which we cannot amend.If the amendment is agreed to, it will bean invitation for the problem to be dealtwith on its merits in September next. Iam concerned about the people we represent.It is ridiculous tb say a man cannot spendmore than £50 on building in one year. Isupport the amendment.

Hon. L. A. LOGAN: We have been ac-cused of tryidig to throw the Bill out inorder to toss controls overboard, but thatis not the position.

Hon. G.' Fraser: Then why vote againstthe Billt

Hon. L. A. LOGAN: We have waitedeight months for the Government to modifythe controls, but it hai done nothing of the.sort.

Hon. G. Fraser: Why try to throw theBill out?

Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I know somethingof the ideas of the Housing Commission,and they have not been put before us to-night. The Chief Secretary said we werebuilding self-help homes at the rate of 1,000a year.

Hon. G. Bennetts: In the metropolitanarea.

Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Then he said theGovernment was going to step the rate upto 1,000 a year. This afternoon, the Ministerfor Housing told me they were going to

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issue permits for up to 1,000 self-help homesa year, but the Chief Secretary said theyweie already doing. that.

The Chief Secretary: Small houses. Thehon. member was not here -when I spoke.

Hon. L. A. LO)GAN: I was here and heardevery word the Chief Secretary said. I hadit in mind to support the second reading ofthis measure, but after waiting eight weeksfor some relief from controls, I have noalternative but to support the amendment.

The CHIEF SECR.ETARY: I am sorryto see the turn the debate has taken, becauseit shows little confidence in the Government.It has been said that the Government hasnot implemented the platform upon whichit was elected, but the fact i§ that eventshave proved such that controls cannot helifted, although pressure is broughit to bearby people in certain walks of life.. Thatwill not influence the Government if it thinksit essential for the welfare of thec~omm unity-that controls be continued. Mir. Tuckey saidhe would vote for the amendment becausehis people wanted it, but the 'Governmentis thinking of the State as a whole and notof any particular district. The-greatest diffi-culty lies in the position of people in theheavily-populated cities and towns.

Hon. R. M. Forrest: You should encouragecountry building.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: We do. Ifthe hon. member studios the 'winbers ofpermits ranted in the metropolitamp areaand the country, he will see that the per-centage for the country is higher than thatfoi the city. Hle mentioned the position ofthe North, hut where is the acute housingposition there, as compared with that inthe metropolitan area? The present Ministerfor Housing is resigning shortly and thenew Minister will have to learn the ropes.

Hon. A. L. Loton:- We understand someof them are jockeying for the position.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I hope thehon. memnher does not get it! At any time,except immediately following an election, itmiqrht be possible to deal with legislationsuch as this in a period of three months,but it must be remembered that this Billhas just been adjourned for five weeks.

Hon. H. L. Roche: Would not Mr. Grayhave better luck!

The CHIEF SECRETARY: What willhappen if the measure is brought forwardin August or September?

Hon. Sir Charles Lathami: If we have thesame stubborn Government, the measure willhave the same -fate,

The CHIEF SECRETARY: That will bethe case if we have members who go to theelectors saying they will support the Gov-ernment and then oppose it when they gethere. The amendment would shorten theperiod of control -by three months at the ut-most, but would put whatever Governmentwas then in power to considerable inconveni-ence if Controls had then to be continued.I hope the Committee will not agree to theamendment.

Hon. A.* THOMSON: The Chief Secre-tary has just said we are endeavouring topass a vote of want of confidence in theGovernment. I congratulate Mr. Fraser onmaking political capital out of the debate,though he is not the only one to do so. Iwill not be in this House next September,and this may be one of the last votes I willexercise in this Chamber. When speakingto the second reading of the Bill, I stateddefinitely that my vote would depend onthe reply of the Chief Secretary.

For weeks now we in this House havebeen asking for an indication of the Gov-ernment's intentions with regard to givingsome relief from these controls. I havehea .rd all the Chief Secretary has said onthe matter and regret that he has not givenone word of encouragement to me to do any-thing but vote against the second reading,as I did. 'While members wish to be loyalto the Governuent, some of us feel we mustalso be loyal to the principles for ivhich wehave always stood.

Hon. Sir Charles Lath am: And to thepeople.

Hon. E. HI. Gray: To some of the people.

Hon. A. THOMSON: I have been inParliament for 35 years and have alwaysstood for the rights of private enterprise.At this late hour in my political existence,I have no intention of changing, and willnot be. accused of changing.

Hon. G. Fraser: Whichever way' YOU vote,this will not change the position.

Hon. A. THOM1SO'N: That is a matterof opinion. Many of us have requestedthat some relief he given in this regard to

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[20 SEPTEMBER, 1949.]22

justify us in voting in favour of controls.As one who has been opposed to controlsfrom the beginning, I feel that I must sup-port the amendment, Having failed to ob-tain a definite assurance from the Ministerin charge of the Bill in this House that itis the intention of the Government to af-ford a certain amount of relief, what elsecan I do? Mfust. I swallow my lifetimeprinciples and accept an assuranee thatsomething may be done, whereas, as far aswe know, no effort has been made to meetthe requests we have proferred?

I want to make my position clear so thatit may be placed on record. If we acceptthe amendment, it will mean the grantingof an extension covering twelve months.No-one would suggest that controls shouldhe entirely removed. No-one knows thatbetter than r do- We must control the erec-tion of expensive homes, but if we are tobe content to sit down until the time ar-rives when every man and woman has hisor her home, which means that controlsmust continue-

The -Chief Secretary: No-one suggestedanything of the sort,

Hon. A. THOMSON: -it will simplymean that there will not be much progresstowards freedom in the matter of building.

Hon. G. Bennetts: Then, in -your opinion,you believe the present Government has notdone any better than the Labour Govern-ment.

Hon. A: THOMSON: I am pleased tohear that interjection, because it -servesagain to indicate that some members wishto make political capital out of this mat-ter- I have definitely said that the Govern-mnent is entitled to every praise and confid-ence respecting the conditions it inherited. Imaintain that. Even if the Labour Gov-ernment had remained in power, while itmight have done as well, it certainly couldnot have done better than has the presentAdministration. All we ask is for some de-finite assurance to he recorded in "Hansard"that will Jprovide justification for some ofus to east a vote for something of which weare definitely not in favour.

Amendment put and a division taken withthe following result:

Ayes -. . . 11Noes .. .- .- 12

Majority against .. 1

Hon. J. M5. Cunningha Hon .W Miles.Hon. R. M. Forrest HOnILH L. RocheHon. H. Hearn Hon. A. ThomsonRon. Sir Chsn. Latham R on. H. K. WatsonRon: L. A. Logan Hon. H, TuokeyRou. A. L. Lotont (Taller.)

Hon. 0. BennettaHon. L. CraigRon. H. A. C. DaffenHon. E. M. DaviesBon. G. FraserHon. Sir F. Et. Gibson

Horn. E. H. GrayHon. E. M. HeenanRon. H. S. W. ParkerHon. C. HE. SimpsonHon. F. U. WelshHon. R,. 3. Boylen

(Teller.)

Amendment thus negatived.tla use put and passed.Title-agreed to.Bill reported without amendment and the

-report adepted.

EMhL-TRA~flO ACT AMENDMElNT.(No. 2).

Second Reading.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (-Hon. H.S. W. Parker-Metropolitan-Suburban)-[8.40] in moving the second reading said:This is at short Bill to bring the Traffic Actinto line with the Motor Vehicle (ThirdParty Insurance) Act, which was amendedso that wvith each motor vehicle license acomp~ulsory third party insurance covershall be issued, the premium being paid tothe liccnsing authority with the licensingfee. It was also provided that no policyshould lapse after 15 'days from the expira-tion of the license, in order tb give the ownertime to renew his license and policy.

Under the Traffic Act license plates mustbe returned to country licensing authoritieswithin 14 days if it is not proposed to re-license the vehicle. In the metropolitan areathe period allowed is 21 days. %It is desirablethat the periods of grace in each Act beidentical and the Bill, therefore, providesthat the term within which license plates,must be returned, both in the country andthe metropolitan area, shall be 15 days.

Hon. A. Thomson: The same as in thecountry.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: The periodwill be the same under both Acts. Theother amendment in the Bill provides thatan unlicensed vehicle may he driven or towedto a place for the purpose of repairs with-out fear of penalty, if at permit to do sohas been obtained in the metropolitan aresfrom the Police Department or in the

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country fhorS the local authority. A thirdparty insurance cover would he automaticallyissued with the permit. Recently there wasa case that brought this matter to a head,A man was driving an unlicensed vehicle tobe repaired and, of course, not being licensedit was uninsured. I understand the vehiclehad been out of commission for some time.

An accident occurred as the result ofwhich the passenger was very' severely in-jured. In that case, fortunately, the Ups-senger was compensated, but it could verywell have been that the owner of the vehiclewas a man of straw. It is considered thatowners of cars in such circumstances shouldbe given the opportunity to insA-e againstsuch possibilities, and an automatic insur-ance cover will be taken out when the per-mit is granted. The intention is to chargehalf-a-crown for a permit, which will pro-v'ide automatic insurance. I move--

That the Bill be now read a saecond time.On motion by Hon. L. A. Logan, debate

adjourned.

BiLL-CTY OF PERTH sHmE FORSUFEWANNUATION (AMENDMSENTS

AUTHOBISATION) (No. 1).

Second Reading.

HON. H. K. WATSON (Metropolitan)18.43] in moving the second reading said:It will be within the recollection of niemAhers that some years ago Parliament passedan Act to establish a superannuation schemefor the City of Perth, embracing all theemployees of the. municipality, both withrespect to its Electricity and Gas Depart-ment and its general municipal depart-ments. They will also remember that lastyear Parliament passed an Act confirmingan agreement whereby the State ElectricityCommission took over the electricity andgas, undertaking of the City of Perth. Inconsequence, it became necessary to wakea few sectional alterations in the terms andprovisions of what is known as the schemefor superannuation established by the Cityof Perth under the City of Perth Super-annuation Fund Act of 1934, as amendedby various subsequent measures.

The Act, as it stands, provides that thesuperannuation hoard shall consist of amember of the Electricity and Gas Com-mittee of the Council. As there is now no

such committee but merely the State Elec-tricity Commission, the provision in theparent Act is being altered accordingly.Similarly, it was provided that the othermember of the superannuation board shouldbe the General Manager of the Electriciyand Gas Department. As there is now nosuck position, it is proposed to suhatitntethe words "the City Treasurer of the CityCouncil for, the time being." The Bill alsoprovides for a consequential definition ofthe word "officer." The only other pointwith which the Bill deals is an amendmentof the provisions of the existing schemeregarding the annual contribution.

At the moment the present Act providesfor the payment of an annual sum not ex-eeding £1,700 from the Electricity and-Gas Department and an annual sum not ex-ceeding £C1,800.from -other departments ofthe council. The amending Bill providesfor the deletion of the sum to he paid fromthe Electricity and Gas Department, as thenecesary sum in connection -wi 'th thoseofficers and wages employees will now beprovided by the State Electricity Commis-sion under the terms of the purchase of theelectricity and gas 'undertaking.

Hon. L. Craig: Is this just transferringth6 obligations from the Electricity andGas Department to the State ElectricityCommission?7

Hon. H_ K. WATSON: It is really notdoing that. The obligation has been trans-ferred. It is really giving consequentialeffect to the actual transfer, which was con-tained in the agreement 'we passed lastyear. The scheme for superannuation eon-tainel full provision to cover both classesof employees. Last year, by the agree-ment, the Commission agreed to take overthe liability and, having done so, theseamendments will bring the existing super-annuation scheme into line with the actualfacts. I move-

That the Bill he not read a second time.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a seond time.

In Committee.

Bill passed throuirh Committee withoutdebate, reported without am 4 ndment andthe report adopted.

House adjouirned at A.50 p.m.

2224