adam kiln notes
DESCRIPTION
adam notesTRANSCRIPT
David,
Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first masonry unit in the
USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone that cares to come and do so. I am not sure
that is the same for the other units.
The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that expanded and cracked the
outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on the original design and added the plate ourselves,
obviously that was a mistake.
The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and actually gives us more
airflow through the chamber when we need it.
Arch on Adam Retort
Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision was, do we bring the
unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit?
We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for over a year, the cost of
moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us.
We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps are inside the chamber
at various points.
It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we would not need to
spend 50K on a mobile unit.
For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have students coming by to
learn more about the process.
Thanks,
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
--- In [email protected], "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote:
>
> actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA.
>
> the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in
peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right.
>
> the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated
by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a
condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has
small fans to boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a
few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more
precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser
fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water
tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below.
>
> NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate
lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with
a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo.
>
> the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out
so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also
makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding
to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures.
>
> the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is
performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other
pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle
assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at
shelburne farms VT:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/
> photos courtesy of jock gill.
>
>
> the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully
functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly
valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural
applications, which is my primary concern.
>
> for a green & peaceful planet,
> David Yarrow
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> 802-778-0663
> www.carbon-negative.us
> www.dyarrow.org
> www.ancientforests.us
> www.nutrient-dense.info
> www.farmandfood.org
> www.SeaAgri.com
> www.OnondagaVesica.info
> www.TurtleEyeland.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: freddeneedle
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM
> Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
>
>
>
> Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first
Adam Retort in the USA.
>
> It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow
Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
>
#106
58
From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 am
Subject: Adam Retort in the USA
freddeneedl
e Offline
Send Email Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where
they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of
the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
60
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:08 pm
Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
trmilesjr Offline
Send Email
Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam.
Thanks Fredde.
Tom
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
freddeneedle
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina
where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name
of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
61
From: Andrew Crane-Droesch <andrewcd@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
mynameisn
otdrew Offline
Send Email Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical
drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of
fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds
of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary?
And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get
at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the
bottom of the retort?
Looking forward to learning more.
Cheers,
Andrew
Tom Miles wrote:
Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam.
Thanks Fredde.
Tom
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
freddeneedle
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina
where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name
of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
62
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:07 pm
Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
trmilesjr Offline
Send Email
Andrew,
The Adam Retort design is owned by Chris Adam, Adam & Partner (http://www.biocoal.org/3.html ) and licensed in the US through New England Biochar. NE Biochar has also developed a mobile version of the retort that you can see in recent posts.
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/1150
The fuel wood requirement is about right. It will vary depending on the moisture of the charge in the retort and the moisture of the fuel in the burner. NE Biochar has a method of recovering stack gases from the unit they say can heat a 5,000 ft2 greenhouse.
Best to contact Peter Hirst at New England Biochar peter@...
Tom
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Andrew Crane-Droesch
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical
drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of
fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds
of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary?
And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get
at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the
bottom of the retort?
Looking forward to learning more.
Cheers,
Andrew
Tom Miles wrote:
Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam.
Thanks Fredde.
Tom
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
freddeneedle
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina
where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name
of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
68
From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:30 am
Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
bdiscoe Offline
Send Email
> -----
> From: Andrew Crane-Droesch
>
> this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings?
Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design as
a trade secret which is licensed. Of course they're entitled to do so, but
IMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractor
without revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm not
sure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknown
process.
Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source
of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars.
Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then
conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local
construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money.
IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.
Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can only
wish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or more
historically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who patented
all his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity.
-Ben
Reply
#106
69
From: Andrew Crane-Droesch <andrewcd@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:05 am
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
mynameisn
otdrew Offline
Send Email Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model.
I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by
recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel
for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system,
given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly,
pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the
material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon.
I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from
what he has!
Best,
Andrew
Ben Discoe wrote:
-----From: Andrew Crane-Droeschthis is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings?
Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design asa trade secret which is licensed. Of course they're entitled to do so, butIMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractorwithout revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm notsure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknownprocess.Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only sourceof information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars.Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you thenconclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your localconstruction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money.IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can onlywish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or morehistorically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who
patentedall his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity.-Ben------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<*> Your email settings:Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/join(Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:[email protected] [email protected]<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[email protected]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Reply
#106
77
From: "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:39 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
yarrow_davi
d Offline
Send Email the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred
dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain.
as i understand it, the license fee is not to enrich the designer, but to support
the deployment of more units in third world countries. similarly, the secrecy is
not to protect a cash cow proprietary process, but to prevent ripoff copycats that
short circuit this modest means to raise small change to fund third world
projects. this is third hand information.
chris adam saw the primitive, polluting, inefficient, wood-wasting methods being
used in (i believe) kenya to make charcoal for cooking, and developed the retort
as a far more efficient, resource conserving, low tech way to make this
essential, universal household need. as i understand the story, he has since
built his retortd in several other african and asian nations.
my hat is off to this good man and his noble efforts. i'm happy to pay him the
modest license fee, except i'm interested in far smaller, on-farm scale units.
reality is this simple technology was developed for third world nations where
technology, sheet steel, electricity, temperature sensors, motors, even a simple
fan are hard to find or money to buy. the key component is the two pieces of
sheet steel that are the lid of the firebox, and lid of the retort. the rest --
essentially the vertical components -- can be any sort of masonry, from clay to
firebox to stone.
the physical design is elegant simplicity, and is not a big mystery or revelation.
it's basically just like an oven, with the fire underneath, and a baking chamber
above. however, the baking chamber -- the retort, for you technos -- is sealed
(mostly) and has dual exhaust ports: one vents the water-laden initial pyrolysis
exhausts; then, after the water is baked out, this is shut and another port
opened to vent pyrolysis gases into the firebox for self-sustained burn. the
secrecy is mostly the exact dimensions and placement of these components to
sustain an efficient thermal process.
for a green & peaceful planet,
David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061
802-778-0663
www.carbon-negative.us
www.dyarrow.org
www.ancientforests.us
www.nutrient-dense.info
www.farmandfood.org
www.SeaAgri.com
www.OnondagaVesica.info
www.TurtleEyeland.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Crane-Droesch
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model.
I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by
recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel
for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system,
given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly,
pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the
material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon.
I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from
what he has!
Best,
Andrew
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Reply
#106
63
From: "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:38 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
palmtreepat
hos Offline
Send Email
Hello freddeneedle exciting for burner for sure!
I would love to see a video of it working... Did you see it? How do
they unload the charcoal? I would think wetting and crushing it first
then shoveling it out. Would that be possible? Or do they hand out
each piece which seems a bit labor intensive?
Geralyn D.
Reply
#106
66
From: "flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmcha
r Offline
Send Email We had the local news station out to do a presentation for Earth Day so we will
release that video when it becomes available.
As far as unloading it, we use manure forks and snow shovels, it was a little
labor intensive at first until we figured out our methods and what we were going
to store it in after unloading.
Now that we have that part figured out it has become very easy to unload and get
prepared for the next burn.
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
--- In [email protected], "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello freddeneedle exciting for burner for sure!
>
> I would love to see a video of it working... Did you see it? How do
> they unload the charcoal? I would think wetting and crushing it first
> then shoveling it out. Would that be possible? Or do they hand out
> each piece which seems a bit labor intensive?
>
> Geralyn D.
>
Reply
#106
64
From: "Dave Green" <gardenbees@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
pollinator20
01 Offline
Send Email
----- Original Message -----
From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...>
>
> It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the
> name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at
> flowfarm.org
It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic
pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property."
Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and
rodenticides, etc.
It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples."
It's a case of mixing a group with its members.
Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking
about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or
else I just quit reading right there...
Dave
Reply
#106
65
From: "flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...>
Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:51 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmcha
r Offline
Send Email Dave,
I appreciate your comments regarding the website and as I have just taken over
the website and the management of the farm I will endeavor to change that.
Regards
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
--- In [email protected], "Dave Green" <gardenbees@...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...>
> >
> > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the
> > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at
> > flowfarm.org
>
> It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic
> pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property."
> Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and
> rodenticides, etc.
>
> It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples."
> It's a case of mixing a group with its members.
>
> Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking
> about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or
> else I just quit reading right there...
>
> Dave
>
Reply
#106
67
From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 am
Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
bdiscoe Offline
Send Email
> -----
> From: Dave Green
>
> It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic
> pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property."
> Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides
Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding, but the meaning
is perfectly clear and correct in colloquial English as used by organic
farmers in the USA: Pesticides kills unwanted members of the animal kingdom,
herbicides kill the vegetable kingdom, and fungicides kill fungi.
> It's a case of mixing a group with its members. Such sloppy writing
> is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about
You might want to get a grip. If they wrote "no pesticides, insecticides or
rodenticides", then you could raise a minor quibble on redundancy. But
"pesticides and herbicides" is, in context, neither redundant nor ambiguous.
-Ben
Reply
#106
70
From: "Dave Green" <gardenbees@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:21 am
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
pollinator20
01 Offline
Send Email
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...>
> Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding
It's called plain English. Say what you mean and mean what you say. We'd all
communicate better, if we followed it.
"A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for
preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest. Pests can be
insects, mice and other animals, unwanted plants (weeds), fungi, or
microorganisms like bacteria and viruses. Though often misunderstood to
refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides,
fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests. Under United
States law, a pesticide is also any substance or mixture of substances
intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant."
(EPA)
Dave
Reply
#106
71
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:44 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
redirondog Offline
Send Email
Dear David
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Green
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "freddeneedle" <[email protected]>
>
> It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the
> name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at
> flowfarm.org
It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic
pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property."
Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and
rodenticides, etc.
# You might be technically correct, but to many people...
#PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies
# INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies
# HERBICIDES are what kills weeds
and
# FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see.
It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples."
It's a case of mixing a group with its members.
Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking
about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or
else I just quit reading right there...
# Have you found anything else of significance that was wrong, inaccurate or misleading about the article or posting?
Best wishes,
Kevin
Dave
Reply
#106
72
From: "flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmcha
r Offline
Send Email I appreciate the passion that people have on here, but it seems that the whole
intent of having the Adam Retort and the bio char is getting lost.
The intent for Flow Farm was for us to be able to use the Adam Retort as part of
our learning and educational center (in process) and of course primarily to add
to our soil. We are also in the process of establishing ourselves as a
Non-profit organization.
Our typical PH here in this region is 4.5 to 5.1 and the area is aptly named the
Sandhills. To say our soil was fast draining would be an understatement.
We are also a Vegan farm, we use no blood meal, bone meal etc in the preparation
of our soil.
Before someone says it, yes we do allow worms in our beds and we do use worm tea
for side dressings and compost tea.
Yes, we created some of our own challenges but that was our choice.
So, back to the Bio Char, we were interested in the Adam Retort unit for several
reasons, (Not in any particular order)
To fit in with the future plans of Flow Farm.
Our proximity to the NC Farm Center that has the BCS 1000.
The availability and expertise of Peter Hirst from New England Bio Char to
oversee construction.
The availability of Chris Adam to communicate ideas and suggestions for
construction and for the operation of the system.
Our poor soil content.
As far as licensing and costs, we are not licensing the unit or building it for
others why would we put the pricing on our website as its not ours to give?
But for those that are interested in licensing and construction you can contact
New England Biochar or Chris Adam and they will tell you how much it costs,
after all that's how we did it.
It took one email and one phone call to get all the information that we needed.
It's not a secret it's just a matter of going to the right people.
It seems that many are wary because of the inability to see a unit of the data
from a unit, well now there is one here in the USA so you can see it, touch it,
feel it, smell it.
If you want to crawl inside it and spend the night in there to get the full
experience we can arrange it.
Seriously though, For those that would like to come visit and see the unit in
operation then please contact us and we would be more than happy to show you it.
Bring gloves and comfy clothes that you don't mind getting dirty as you will be
loading and unloading the unit as part of the educational experience.
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
74
From: "Dave" <gardenbees@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 pm
Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
pollinator20
01 Offline
Send Email
--- In [email protected], "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...>
wrote:
> # You might be technically correct, but to many people...
>
> #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies
>
> # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies
>
> # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds
>
> and
>
> # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and
bad stuff I can't see.
OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish.
The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit
yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach.
In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily
stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the
majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can
always stay on the outside looking in.
Dave
(Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you start
getting old.)
Reply
#106
76
From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:24 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
dosidicus... Offline
Send Email
Hi Dave,
From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm.
It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated with agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”.
Best, Mark
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Dave
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
--- In [email protected], "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...> wrote:
> # You might be technically correct, but to many people...
>
> #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies
>
> # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies
>
> # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds
>
> and
>
> # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths,
and bad stuff I can't see.
OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish.
The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit
yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach.
In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily
stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the
majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can always
stay on the outside looking in.
Dave
(Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you
start getting old.)
Reply
#106
78
From: "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
yarrow_davi
d Offline
Send Email out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of
contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue this nonsense on you
own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. show some decency, judgment
and restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose
the benefit of their participation.
yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent new
england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are suffering as the
temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues to discuss.
dancing turtle
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Ludlow
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Hi Dave,
From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm.
It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated with agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”.
Best, Mark
MARKETPLACE
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Reply
#106
83
From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd <mark@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:10 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
markhyphen
Offline
Send Email hear hear
David Yarrow wrote:
>
> out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this
> kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue
> this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list.
> show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why
> people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation.
> yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent
> new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are
> suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues
> to discuss.
> dancing turtle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mark Ludlow <mailto:mark@...>
> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all
> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as
> described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide
> Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes
> substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are
> considered to be “pesticides” as any regulatory consultant will
> quickly confirm.
>
> It’s not exactly a foreign language if you’re associated with
> agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to
> understand how a fertilizer can be a “pesticide”.
>
> Best, Mark
>
> MARKETPLACE
>
> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're
> on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
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Reply
#106
84
From: "Mark Ludlow" <mark@...>
Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:51 am
Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
dosidicus... Offline
Send Email
Dear Mr. Dancing Turtle,
What, pray, did your post have to do with Biochar?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] Behalf Of
Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
hear hear
David Yarrow wrote:
>
> out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this
> kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue
> this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list.
> show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why
> people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation.
> yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent
> new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are
> suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues
> to discuss.
> dancing turtle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mark Ludlow <mailto:mark@...>
> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all
> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as
> described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide
> Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes
> substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products
are
> considered to be "pesticides" as any regulatory consultant will
> quickly confirm.
>
> It's not exactly a foreign language if you're associated with
> agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to
> understand how a fertilizer can be a "pesticide".
>
> Best, Mark
>
> MARKETPLACE
>
> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're
> on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15ohtmanp/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D
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Reply
#106
87
From: "Dave" <gardenbees@...>
Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:45 am
Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
pollinator20
01 Offline
Send Email
--- In [email protected], "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote:
>
> out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of
contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue this nonsense on you
own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. show some decency, judgment and
restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose the
benefit of their participation.
>
> yes, i am in a grumpy mood today.
Please, please, don't get in such a grumpy mood that you fail to see who your
friends are.
This group is a group to advocate for biochar, is it not? We want to communicate
its need and importance to the rest of the world, no?
If this is true, then marginalizing ourselves by making a faux pas that will
strike those with some scientific training (seems to me the most important
audience with which to communicate) think, "Oh, well, here's another whacko.
I'll skip this article."
So it's not irrelevant. Indeed how to best communicate our message is quite
central to the purpose of the group.
And it need not be contentious either. The manager of flowfarm used it as a
learning moment. He acknowledged the error and said corrections would be made.
To me, that shows character.
Others got their panties in a wad, preferring to stick to the small group jargon
that shuts them out of possibilities. I was offering a word to the wise...
And you don't need to convince me. I'm making biochar every chance I get to fire
up a burn. I'll be blogging about it in the future, and have been posting on
garden groups already.
So recognize your friends; don't treat them like enemies. Your scolding might
make someone (like me perhaps) think of leaving the list.
I've said all I will say. Those who are willing to learn have done so.
Dave
Reply
#106
73
From: "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:48 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
yarrow_davi
d Offline
Send Email actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA.
the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal
compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is
transportable. picture at right.
the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still
unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version
has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic
exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to
boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser.
also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort
temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air
conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also
required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool
ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below.
NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry
structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and
cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry
arch. no photo.
the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of
firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel
plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to
control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain
pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures.
the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations,
and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+
gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been
functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second
version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at
shelburne farms VT:http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/photos courtesy of jock gill.
the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several
refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small
scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site
forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural
applications, which is my primary concern.
for a green & peaceful planet,
David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061
802-778-0663
www.carbon-negative.us
www.dyarrow.org
www.ancientforests.us
www.nutrient-dense.info
www.farmandfood.org
www.SeaAgri.com
www.OnondagaVesica.info
www.TurtleEyeland.org
----- Original Message -----
From: freddeneedle
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM
Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina
where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name
of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
Reply
#106
79
From: "flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmcha
r Offline
Send Email David,
Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first
masonry unit in the USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone
that cares to come and do so. I am not sure that is the same for the other units.
The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that
expanded and cracked the outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on
the original design and added the plate ourselves, obviously that was a mistake.
The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and
actually gives us more airflow through the chamber when we need it.
Arch on Adam Retort
Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision
was, do we bring the unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit?
We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for
over a year, the cost of moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the
unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us.
We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps
are inside the chamber at various points.
It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we
would not need to spend 50K on a mobile unit.
For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have
students coming by to learn more about the process.
Thanks,
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
--- In [email protected], "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote:
>
> actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA.
>
> the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal
compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is
transportable. picture at right.
>
> the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still
unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version
has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic
exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to
boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser.
also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort
temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air
conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also
required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool
ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below.
>
> NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry
structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and
cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry
arch. no photo.
>
> the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of
firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel
plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to
control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain
pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures.
>
> the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality
regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each
burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit
has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the
second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at
shelburne farms VT:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/
> photos courtesy of jock gill.
>
>
> the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several
refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small
scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site
forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural
applications, which is my primary concern.
>
> for a green & peaceful planet,
> David Yarrow
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> 802-778-0663
> www.carbon-negative.us
> www.dyarrow.org
> www.ancientforests.us
> www.nutrient-dense.info
> www.farmandfood.org
> www.SeaAgri.com
> www.OnondagaVesica.info
> www.TurtleEyeland.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: freddeneedle
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM
> Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
>
>
>
> Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina
where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.
>
> It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name
of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org
>
Reply
#106
92
From: "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...>
Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:40 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
palmtreepat
hos Offline
Send Email
"flowfarmchar" Thanks for all the great pictures and info. Does the
top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? Maybe a domed
lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? I know... I know... crazy
woman questions...
Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D.
Reply
#106
93
From: "flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...>
Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:47 am
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
flowfarmcha
r Offline
Send Email It gets hot enough to fry an egg, we have tried that :)
Sounds like a fun thing to try some pizza though, I will let you know how things
turn out.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Flow Farm
Aberdeen, NC
flowfarm.org
--- In [email protected], "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> "flowfarmchar" Thanks for all the great pictures and info. Does the
> top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? Maybe a domed
> lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? I know... I know... crazy
> woman questions...
>
> Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D.
>
Reply
#106
80
From: "Greg and April" <gregandapril@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:04 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
gregh80915 Offline
Send Email
A couple of years ago ( when I looked at the retort ), it was $1000 Euro,
which translated to about $2500 US.
I suspect that the license cost is still tied to the Euro, and so the final
cost in US$ is calculated at the time of transaction.
Greg H.
.
Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is
something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 19:30
Subject: RE: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source
of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars.
Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then
conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local
construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money.
IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.
Reply
#106
81
From: "Greg and April" <gregandapril@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:09 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
gregh80915 Offline
Send Email
If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago.Greg H.
.
Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is
something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Yarrow
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:39
Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred
dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain.
Reply
#106
82
From: "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...>
Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
yarrow_davi
d Offline
Send Email as i said, this is third hand info. others will know better than me. the adam retort
is not an interest of mine.
david
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg and April
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA
If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago.Greg H.
.
MARKETPLACE
Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get
the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms
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Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
.
Reply