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Name
Address
Royal Commission ir1to:, lp ,stitutional Respons~s to Child Sexua l Abuse
Statement
Marina Helene Randall
REDACTED
STAT.0110.001.0001_M
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Occupation Retired Salvation Army Major, volunteer Administrative Manager of The Salvation Army Professional Standards Office
Date 10 January 2014
1. This statement made by me accurately sets out the evidence that I am prepared to give to the
Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. The statement is true and
correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
2. My full name is Marina Helene Randall and my date of birth is REDACTED
3. My father was a policeman. We moved around a little bit because of his work.
4. My parents were always very keen in terms of their Christian faith. They always wanted to
belong to a church, but in some places there was quite a judgmental attitude towards my
brother, David, who had Down syndrome. The attitude that tended to come across was "You
must be terribly sinful people for God to have punished you by giving you a Down syndrome
child ." My parents rejected that outright, and I do too.
5. I'm the oldest of four children. David was the third child, and the only boy.
6. When David was born, my parents were told to "Get rid of him, put him in a home, have nothing
to do with him, forget you ever had him." Members of the medical profession used to say "Your
girls will never find husbands, they'll never be appreciated."
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Statement in the matter of Case Study s Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
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7. My parents said "No, he's our child, we'll raise him in the same way (as the girls)." That was their
philosophy, but still taking into account his special needs, as you do.
8. When I was about 10 years of age, a friend of mine suggested I go to Salvation Army Sunday
School. The first thing my parents wanted to know was "Would David be accepted?" The
Salvation Army's answer was "Why wouldn't he be accepted?" David was accepted with open
arms and warmly welcomed by The Salvation Army. So as a family we've been with The Salvation
Army pretty much ever since.
9. When I finished 4th year in high school (the equivalent of year ten), my parents explained very
carefully it was no longer a possibility for me to continue at school, and that I needed to get a
job. Being the oldest, it was a bit of a drain on finances, "You're a girl, girls get married and have
families, they don't have careers."
10. Otherwise I would have gone to university, I was interested in law and psychology, and teaching
as well.
11. My mother organised for me to get a job as a junior clerk typist at The Salvation Army
Headquarters in Sydney. I found the job very frustrating and boring. There was nothing wrong, I
just wasn't stimulated; I wasn't challenged . I needed something more .
12. While I was working in Sydney, my ears pricked up when I overheard that The Salvation Army had
some schools in Papua New Guinea (PNG). The PNG Government allowed "permit teachers," and
the only qualification for being a permit teacher was that you knew more than the students you
were teaching.
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STAT.0110.001.0002_M_R
Statement in the matter of Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
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13. I made a few inquiries and the next thing I knew I was accepted, and I was sent to PNG at the age
of 17 to teach in a primary school. So my schoolmates were still finishing their HSC, and I was
teaching.
14. I taught infants and primary students. It was challenging, different. I enjoyed it, and I learned a
lot.
15. For the first year I was based at a mission station called Onamuga, which was in the Eastern
Highlands District. I taught what was called Standard One (the equivalent of first class in New
South Wales) in the eastern highlands for one year. For the second year I was transferred to a
Salvation Army demonstration school in Port Moresby. I was to teach Standard Three (the
equivalent of third class in New South Wales).
16. About half way through the second year, the teachers college in Port Moresby sent their
students into the demonstration schools. The students were to observe, and they had their
supervisors. Which meant for a lot of the teaching that I was doing there was one or two student
observers plus the supervisor, who was usually the principal of the teachers college.
17. The principal of the teachers college complemented me, and told me that I was a - I'll use the
word "blankety-blank" - good teacher.
18. A matter of weeks after that, the Government in PNG decided that they no longer wanted permit
teachers. I either had to do a full teaching qualification, or a six-month bridging E-course (E for
European) . But you had to be 21 years of age to do the short course .
19. So for the last several months of my time in PNG I worked in the office of The Salvation Army
Regional Headquarters as a secretary.
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STAT.0110.001.0003_M_R
Statement in the matter of Case Study s Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
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20. It was in my second year when I first went to Port Moresby that I met Cliff. He had come to PNG
as a Methodist, employed by The Salvation Army.
21. I returned to Australia after my second year in PNG. Cliff returned to Australia in 1972.
22. In 19711 started nursing training at the nursing education centre at the Prince Henry & Prince of
Wales Hospitals. I did one year in training. At the end of that year, in February 1972, Cliff and I
got married. At the end of the second year of training, our son, Graeme, was born. I went back to
training after he was born, but several months later we were asked if we'd be prepared to go to
lndooroopilly.
Appointment to lndooroopilly and replacement of Donald Schultz
23. Before we got married, Cl iff had made an approach to The Salvation Army, saying he wanted to
work with children.
24. In about August 1973, Cliff was told there had been a breakdown at lndooroopilly. Cliff was
approached to go to lndooroopilly because he had previously expressed an interest in working
with children .
25. Cliff had health issues, and we had a baby. So we said yes.
26. Cliff and I went to lndooroopilly in August 1973, and we left in May 1975. We were there for
nearly two years.
27. We had no idea what the breakdown was, and at that point it didn't occur to me to question
what a breakdown meant. All I knew was that we were packing up, I was finishing up at the
hospital, and we were going to Brisbane to live.
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STAT.0110.001.0004_M_R
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Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued Page 5 of
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28. There are certain things that stand out in my mind from when we arrived at lndooroopilly. Things
were a little bit "topsy-turvy" in the house flat, which made me think that things were not right.
There was a washing basket with linen in it in the lounge room. The bedroom wasn't the way you
would expect it to be if the departure of the previous house parents - Donald "Don" Schultz and
his wife - had been in a controlled, relaxed manner. Interestingly when we had settled in, we
found mashed pumpkin on the ceiling in the bedroom.
29. As time went on, we heard different stories from the boys. They told Cliff that they could hear
the Schultzes arguing and fighting, particularly at night, and they told Cliff about Don Schultz
finding his way into the beds of more than one boy.
30. I was a bit young and na·ive. I thought "That's their business, it's nothing to do with me." I didn't
think anything more about it, I just moved on. In the earlier days I felt nobody would treat kids
like that. You wouldn't do it, how could anybody? I just couldn't conceive that it would happen.
31. Every so often Cliff would come and tell me he'd been talking to one of the boys who had
disclosed about the abuse. Cliff didn't go into any detail with me as to what actually happened. It
was enough for me to know that Schultz got into bed with the boys. I thought "Why would you
do that? Why would anybody hurt a child? What's the matter with the man?"
32 . After one such conversation with one of the boys, Cliff went to Captain Wilson and said "I really
don't believe this, but is there any truth to what I've been told?"
33 . Captain Wilson confirmed the stories. He told Cliff and me that "Behaviours were really bad, we
were aware that if we didn't get Don Schultz out of Queensland in a hurry, he might have been in
big trouble; he'd be in jail."
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STAT.0110.001.0005_M_R
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STAT.0110.001.0006_M
Statement in the matter of Case Study1 5 1 i.
Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued Page '6 of
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34. This revelation occurred reasonably early on in our time at lndooroopilly, within the first four
months.
35. Don Schultz would target ~IF_G __ ~I' an eleven or twelve year old boy. uas a vulnerable,
emotionally needy kid - more so than others. He had learning difficulties. He was what we would
now call developmentally and emotionally delayed. He would have been in institutional care for
a long time.
36. There was an English couple there for a short time - a matter of weeks or a couple of months.
They had three or four children of their own.
37. They left very strangely. Cliff and I just assumed the story they told us about family and needing
to get back to England was correct.
38. There was nobody to replace the English couple for a while, and then Elke Ward and Ian Ward
were appointed. They were not Salvationists. They came from a charismatic church and were
very keen to do the right thing. They were a lovely couple, but they were very na"lve as well.
lndooroopilly Boys Home
39. When we first arrived at lndooroopilly, the staff included Captain Laurie Wilson and mwilson
as Managers. Stanley Evans and Jean Evans were house parents in "Koala House." They had
"Farewell Orders" soon after we got there (that was when the English couple came).~ and
REDACTED were house parents in Emu House. Cliff and I were the first non-officers to take a
position at lndooroopilly.
40. lndooroopilly- what was happening in that place, and what was happening for each of the kids -
was a whole new world to me.
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STAT.0110.001.0007 _M
·page 7 of 25
41. I would learn about the backgrounds of the kids, and what had happened to them before they
came to the Home - sometimes from what they would tell me, and sometimes from discussions
with Jan Doyle, the case worker from Children's Services.
42. I used to get quite angry about the parents, "they're horrible." My journey was to think "How
could parents hurt and damage their kids so badly that they would have to wind up in this
place?" One day it clicked with me - those parents were missing out on something special with
their children, and I started to feel sorry for the parents as much as I felt sorry for the kids.
43. I got to know the kids and they each had something special about them. Some of the boys had
behavioural issues, but "kids are kids." I don't care where they are from, whether they're in a
classroom in Papua New Guinea, in a kids' home, or in your own family - kids push boundaries,
get into trouble, don't always obey. But at the same time they can do the opposite, they can say
and do things that really warm you.
Daily regimen
44. There was no rule book at lndooroopilly, no list of duties.
45. My duties were explained to me byHjwilson (Captain Wilson's wife) .• showed me the
ropes, and gave me an orientation as to what would be expected of me. For instance, every
morning one of my duties was - after the boys went to school - to unwrap and butter so many
loaves of bread for the kids in my house, put them back in their packets and send them to the
kitchen where the fillings would be put on. That was the way the place ran, and that was
logistical.
46. When a boy came into Cliff and my house, I would show him where his bed and his locker was,
and tell him as much as I thought he needed to know at that point - lunch is at such-and-such a
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Statement in the matter. of. Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
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time; there will be a bell for food, you will come to the dining room, line up, and then you will be
taken in.
47. I struggled sometimes with how the Home was run, it didn't make sense to me. It was an
institution and that's all there was to it. I kept thinking "Is there a way that you could run it
differently?"
48. At the same time, we had 63 boys and 3 sets of house parents. If you were going to do the
laundry and cook for 63 kids, there had to be some kind of structure to function. If you were
going to make sure that 63 kids were where they needed to be at a given time, there had to be a
level of requirement for obedience.
49. But the structure of the household was not what you might hope for in a normal family home. A
part of me struggled with making sure that each of the kids had a sense that they were
important, that they were "who they were ." I don't know whether anybody else actually called
the kids by their number, but as far as Cliff and I were concerned, we always used their names.
Their numbers were only useful for laundry purposes.
50. In the morning, the boys were not allowed to speak. The lights would go on and the boys were
supposed to bound out of bed, quickly get changed into their play clothes, grab their
toothbrushes, and stand near the door. At that point, Cliff would be at the other end of the
hallway. He would nod to them, and they would silently march downstairs.
51. Enforcing silence was a way to hold the boys in discipline, "If we allow them to talk they'll take a
liberty." Cliff and I didn't particularly like it, but we also knew that Captain Wilson used to prowl
around and watch for kids that were taking. And if one of them was talking, it didn't go down so
well for the boy. And the house parent - Cliff in this case - would get a good dressing down . '
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STAT.0110.001.0008_M_R
STAT.0110.001.0009_M
Statement in the matter ()f Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
1 l' i;page 9 of 25
afterwards for not maintaining discipline, "You're not doing the right thing and we expect this of
you ."
S2. One day Captain Wilson had come to the House, and he heard one of the boys speaking - he
stormed in, grabbed the boy, and threw him the full length of the hallway. The floor was polished
blue linoleum, so the boy kind of slid. Cliff was very upset/ really angry about that. It shouldn't
have happened, you don't do that. It was an awful thing for a kid to wake up to.
S3. Boys who wet the bed were taken to the doctor and put on some kind of medication, which was
supposed to stop the bed wetting. I think it was "Mellaril." This was the closest thing to support
given to the boys for wetting the bed.
S4. REDACTED REDACTED 's wife) once spoke to me "on the quiet,"
trying to help me fit into the culture. She said "You have always got to understand that these
boys are naughty boys - they are naughty." She used that word over again. "And you need to
keep them down and hold them down all the time." I accepted what she said, but I didn't believe
it. I didn't argue with her either, in her mind it was the truth.
SS. There was recognition that there were strong boundaries in the Home, and the house parents
had to keep within them. I don't know that I was ever conscious or aware of what consequences
there might be if I didn't maintain those boundaries.
Conditions at the Home
S6. The Home was fairly Spartan compared to a normal family home.
S7. When the boys came into care, the Department of Children's Services issued them with a
"standard issue" of clothes, including shoes, socks, pyjamas, shirts, a jumper and maybe a
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cardigan - clothes that would be suitable for "smart casual," clothes that would be suitable for
playing around. Some kids brought clothes from home as well.
58. The boys also had to wear a "uniform" for Church, which was supplied by the Home - grey pants,
white shirt, black belt, and if I remember correctly a blue tie.
59. There was a very old chapel on the property used for storage, and it was full of clothing and
shoes, and those sorts of things. As kids grew out of clothes, the clothes that they could no
longer wear were washed and stored in the chapel. It was a dark place. When a boy went across
to get "new" clothes they were always with either myself or another house parent. I never went
on my own, I always went with the manager's wife. It was her responsibility to look after the
store room. It wasn't a very pleasant place but it was the only place where they had the space for
such storage.
60. Generally speaking, the clothes in the store room were still good, and I couldn't see a problem
with handing clothes down, because I'd lived with that all my life. For argument's sake, if one of
the boys grew out of hist-shirt, we'd take the boy to the store room and make a swap. It was
done sort of formally .
61. One of the things that I didn't like about my job was where the boys kept, and how they were
required to use their clothes. In the dormitory there were cubicles on either side of the hallway.
In each cubicle there were three beds, and as you walked into a cubicle there were three
"lockers." Each locker belonged to one of the boys in the room.
62. Part of a wall in the dormitory was also taken up by big lockers; one for each boy, and they were
all locked .
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STAT.0110.001.0010_M_R
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63 . The way the Home was run demanded the house mother - me in our case - keep all the boys'
clothes under lock and key. No boy was allowed to access any of his clothes beyond what I put
out for each boy on a daily or twice daily basis.
64. It was my responsibility to pull out of each locker the clothes that the boys were to wear, and I
would put them on their beds. So whatever day of the week it was, whatever the event - Church,
school - today we give out clean pyjamas, today we give out clean play clothes, today we give
out clean underpants (the boys did not get clean underpants every day, I think it was every 2
days).
65. I thought it was undignified for a 14, 15 year old boy- going through what you go through at that
age - to have a house mother choose which underpants or pyjamas he was going to wear. That
just didn't seem right to me.
66. Twice a week the boys were expected to put their pyjamas out to be washed. There was a basket
put out for them. Three times a week the boys were allowed to put their underpants out to be
washed. Twice a week they were allowed to put out their play clothes. Once a week they were
given the opportunity to change one sheet. That was the kind of regime the whole time, it was
very, very regimented.
67. I can remember saying to myself "These boys are not learning how to look after themselves. They
are not learning how to dress or how to look after the clothing."
68. I lived with the system for a while, until I felt comfortable enough to say " It's not good for the
kids' wellbeing." I talked it over with Cliff, and we felt that we had the autonomy in our House to
do what we thought should be done.
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STAT.0110.001.0011_M_R
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69. Cliff and I instituted a house meeting arrangement, which was frowned upon by the way. I said to
the boys "I am going to put all your clothes into your lockers in your room; you look after them.
You know what clothes you are allowed to wear, you know what you are expected to wear at
certain places and at certain times, and you know what you need to keep for good and what you
can wear for play. You know whether your clothes are dirty, and if they need a wash. I will put a
basket in a particular place. If you think your clothes are dirty, put them in the basket - even if
it's not the "change day." If you are going somewhere and you want your shirt ironed, I will leave
an ironing board and an iron there and you can figure out how to do it, or you can come and talk
to me and I' ll show you. If you have any difficulties with any of that, come and talk to me, and we
can work through it."
70. I thought it was a victory that the boys felt comfortable to say "I'm supposed to be wearing this
outfit today," and they would wear it.
71. By the time we instituted this situation, Captain John Mciver was the Manager at the Home (the
Mclvers replaced the Wilsons). Mciver said "I'm not sure that that's working I that that's a good
idea, but we'll watch and see."
72. It was working alright until one Sunday morning. The boys got dressed - they had to wear a
uniform to go to Sunday meetings at the corps at Toowong. Two of the boys in our House forgot
to put the belts on with their uniforms, and I got hauled over the coals because the boys were
not dressed properly. I was told "It is your responsibility to make sure the boys are dressed
appropriately, it reflects on us as the Managers if the boys are not dressed properly."
73 . The dormitory wasn't warm at all. Admittedly, Brisbane winters aren't terribly cold, but the kids
still felt it .
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STAT.0110.001.0012_M_R
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Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
STAT.0110.001.0013_M
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74. The mosquitos were huge. There were no mosquito nets for most of the time that we were at
the Home, the kids were eaten alive by mosquitos. Cliff and I were eaten alive by mosquitos - we
were in the same situation. Eventually screens were put up at the windows.
School
75. The boys went to school every day - primary school and high school. I can't remember how many
schools were involved with the Home - three or four.
76. It was one of Cliff's duties to drive the Home bus, which was a 60-odd seater, to take the kids to
and from school each day, and do the rounds.
77. Everyone at the schools knew the boys were "home kids." There was no question about that.
78. The boys went to school, they came home. They were expected to do their homework in the
evening under supervision.
79. Each of the three houses had a room towards the back of the house, like a mini motel room. The
person who lived in there, usually a university student, was known as the "House Master." The
House Master would look after the boys during study period times, and was responsible for
making sure the boys' routine was carried on when the house parents were away - on their
weekends off, or anything like that. The House Master that was in our House, his name was
•. I don't remember his surname. llwas a quiet person, and he did try very hard to do
the right thing, but he was also studying at the same time.
80. The boys were not given terribly much encouragement educationally beyond what was
absolutely necessary. But again, many of them were so emotionally traumatised and damaged.
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STAT.0110.001.0014_M
· \ I , Statement in the matter of Case Study 5 ·. Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Responding to the boys
Page 141of 25
81. With so many boys in the Home, regardless of the reasons for them coming to us, the vast
majority had experienced some kind of trauma in their lives, and emotional upheaval. The mere
fact of coming to the Home was an emotional upheaval. There was a crisis at least twice a day
with one or two of the boys in terms of how they were coping and what they were doing, and
their reactions. It was just constant, all the time.
82. IFG !used to tell me a story about how before he was born his mother was shot and the ~----
bullet passed into the womb, and grazed his head. That had an impact on him. I don't know how
true it was, but that was his understanding of his early life.
83. When Cliff and I had been at the Home for over a year~asked me "Can I call you Mum?" I
said "If you want to, you can." He would also come to me every so often and say "Mum, can I
have a hug?" I'd just give him a quick hug and he was okay, and he would go off. He was the only
boy that ever did that.
84. ~didn't quite know how to handle what was happening around him, and he would break out
into bad behaviour/ react very quickly. On one occasion, one of the boys said something that
upset~ ~picked up the nearest thing - an iron, but Cliff saw it and grabbed~- Cliff
just stopped ~from hitting the boy on the back of the head. Cliff would have then taken~
aside and settled him down, and tried to get out of him what had happened. Afterwards, Cliff
came to me, he was a bit upset and said "If I hadn't been there, that could have been really
nasty." Cliff was upset to think that EJould have done that, and what was going to become of
him .
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85. I can't say that~as a favourite. I responded to what~wanted. Other kids wanted other
things.
86. In one case I was in my laundry, and one of our boys came and stood in the doorway. I just
looked at him and said "What's your biggest problem?" The boy poured out this great big anxiety
about the possibility of going home to his parents; there were things at home he wasn't happy
about, and he didn't know how he would be able to cope. I listened to him, I can't remember
what I said to him, but he said "Oh, thanks," and went on his way. So how I responded depended
on what the boys came out with, and what they seemed to need.
Physical punishment
87. The role of the manager was to look after the administration of the Home; which included
ensuring food and other supplies, sorting out pays and staffing. The manager also interacted with
the Department of Children's Services, and set the rules and the ways things operated.
88. The manager was the only staff member who had the "right" to discipline the boys, in the sense
of giving corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was the standard. When kids misbehaved
they required corporal pun ishment; that was the ruling.
89. Expectations were supposed to be "infused" into the boys' thinking and understanding when
they arrived at the Home by the house parent. And the manager would possibly give a new boy a
warning when he first arrived, "This is what we expect of you. You toe the line, follow the rules,
listen to what you're told, and the adults are in charge." Probably the boys themselves when
they met a new child would give their own interpretation of what was what.
90. One incident of physical abuse that sticks out in my mind involved IFG 11 was in our ~----
bedroom when I heard a .bit of a ruckus/ this whacking noise. I looked out the window and I saw
Signature: .... ~: .. R..~ ............. ·T1 .•• Witness:. : ..... ~ .. ............. . . . ~:~nc.:.. _.
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Statement in the matter:bf} Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
STAT.0110.001.0016_M
Page 16 of 25
REDACTED with~· IX1 lhad~ and he was belting him. ---
1x1 ras holding ~and whacking I hitting him across the buttocks with his hand, and~ ---had big hands. The boy wasn't all that big - there was a significant size difference. E2Jhit ~
three times - whack, whack, whack - and then he looked at~'s face and said "You are not
crying. All right, I will make you cry." And E2Jkept hitting him and hitting him saying "You're still
not crying. Tough, huh?" I think I counted about eight or ten whacks/ slaps across the buttocks,
and they were hard smacks too. The boy just wouldn't cry. It just infuriate~
91. I was really upset about this incident. I rang Captain John Mciver, the Manager, on• our internal
phone system and said "I am really concerned . E2J's outside and he's belting into~ This
shouldn't happen." Mciver said "I' ll sort it out later, don't worry about it."
92. Captain Mciver came to the Home early in 1974, just before the Brisbane floods . The Mclvers
were there when we left in May 1975.
93. On one occasion, when John Mciver was away on furlough,IX1 !lined the boys up and ~----
said "This belting is to let you know that I am in charge."
94. When 1~x_1 ___ I (and his wife, REDACTED I had a change of appointment, Captain Mciver
said "I've got to choose a 21C, it's mandatory." Mciver chose one of the other employees (not
Cliff) . The man Mciver chose constantly agreed with everything Mciver did, there were no
problems with him. Mciver said "He is loyal to me and I trust him, and he doesn't question what I
do."
95. Another couple (their surname was Warry), replaced the 1x1 las house parents, but they ---were not Salvationists. I don't know that they stayed very long either, I got the impression that it
was all too much for them. They were also there when we left in May 1975. .·t· ' 1:··
Si~ nature: .. - ~~.£.q_(((_VJ.w.1J. .... ....... . Witness: ........ t;fj'~ ............... .
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Statement in the matter of Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Captain Laurie Wilson's sick parades
r. · .l' "1 Page 17 of 25
96. At the time we were at the Home there was an "undercurrent of belief' that Captain Wilson was
sexually abusing children. The understanding was anecdotal.
97. To the side of the kitchen was a "sick room" with a doctor's/ surgical couch. Underneath the
couch were supplies like band aids. After Captain Wilson left, because I was the only one that had
nursing experience, I went in and had a "stickybeak" - it looked fairly well stocked.
98. After Captain Wilson left it was said "Why on earth would you need a doctor's couch in there?"
But the accusations weren't specific, and I was on the na'Jve side.
99. I just thought that Captain Wilson was a megalomaniac. He wanted to be in charge of everything,
he knew everything, and he thought he was wonderful.
100. I'm sure Captain Wilson's wife thought the sun, moon and stars shone out of his left elbow.
She believed that he could fix anything, and she was proud of the fact that her own children
believed that their dad was so wonderful. If anything went wrong, "Dad will fix it."
101. I didn't like the man, he was controlling and manipulative. But he was in charge, so you
accept that.
102. I used to get annoyed because I couldn't understand why Captain Wilson would demand to
have "sick parades" every day. He also used to demand that the boys come to him if they were
sick or injured .
103. In reality there was no need for "sick parades." In fact, after Capta in Wilson left the Mclvers
didn't do sick parades.
SLgnatuce :_Jf!i..:.~e.f.. ........ .... . . . Witness: .... .. /!~ .............. .
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Statement in the ;matter of Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
I .. r :~ ; ; , Page 18 of 25
104. I did training as a nurse, but I didn't do my final exams. On one occasion, one of the boys had
a fall, and had a scratch on his arm. It wasn't life threatening or drastic, it was just
uncomfortable. I told him to wash it, "Use some soap and make sure no dirt is left in it." He went
and cleaned it, and then came back. I looked at it and I thought "There's no need for any
treatment," but the boy was distressed and wanted treatment. So I went to my own stash and
found a great big piece of Elastoplast, and put it on his arm. The boy went of "happy as Larry,"
and I didn't think any more about it.
105. Captain Wilson saw the band aid and asked "Why did you put the dressing on?" I told him
"The boy had a bit of a scratch." Captain Wilson said "You're not supposed to do that. For
anything like that, you're supposed to refer the boy to me. I'm the person that is supposed to
look after injuries, and do examinations. And the Department expects injuries to be written up in
the book." I thought "Why would you write a scratch up in a book?" But, I thought "If the
Department expects it, that's okay." In hindsight, it couldn't have been a departmental
requirement.
106. Afterwards, when people started with the "wink wink, nudge nudge," I thought Captain
Wilson must have been doing things to the boys. He must have got satisfaction or pleasure out of
having the boys in his care.
107. The feeling at the time was that something should be done about Captain Wilson, but
nobody knew where to start. If you were going to do something about it, you had to pull out the
proof, "I know this happened because." And if you were to raise it to a level where somebody
could do something about it, who would you take it to?
--· --· .Slgnatur.e : ...• /.!/..~O&tf.. .... ....... .. .. Witness_:_£: .... ~········· ·
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Statement in the matter of Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Running away
Page 19 of 25
108. We had situations at the Home fairly frequently where kids would run away, and would be
brought back by the police.
109. When boys were brought back to the Home very often they would say "I'm not going back to
that house, I have to go to Kangaroo House," where Cliff and I were .
110. Very often when boys were brought back by the police, Captain Mciver would send the boys
to us while he talked with the police. Cliff and I were supposed to settle/ calm them down, and
get them fixed up so they could go back to their house. Some of the boys refused to go back, and
a transfer was made within the Home.
Conflict with management
111. In early 1975, Cliff and I went to Sydney on holidays. We said to ourselves "We ought to let
Headquarters know the way the Home is operating." We approached Colonel Gordon Peterson,
who had overall responsibility for the Home.
112. Colonel Peterson listened to us, but - in hindsight - I suspect from his reaction that he
thought "Cliff and Marina are very sincere, but they're young, and na"lve in understanding
process. Probably [the way the Home is operating] is nowhere near as bad as what they're
saying. They're probably overreacting."
113. Colonel Peterson said "I'll look into it." But Cliff and I had the realisation afterwards "How are
they going to look into it?" Because there were no set procedures.
114. Brigadier Ready, the divisional Social Services Secretary, was next in line after Colonel
" Pete'rson. My feeling at the time was that - if Brigadier Reddy heard from us that there was a
W~cre<src• ... /!1f ~· · ···· · . ... _:_:1
STAT.0110.001.0019_M_R
STAT.0110.001.0020_M
'!Statement in the matter of Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Page 20 of 25
problem at the Home - his first port of call would be to go to the manager, and the manager
would feel "I have my job here. I'm not going to let on that there's any problem, I'm going to
smooth things over." So the complaint wouldn't go any further than that.
115. Captain Mciver was a trusted officer. It was in Captain Mclver's interest to ensure things
were not looked into at the Home. You don't air your dirty linen . You gloss over, or rationalise
things. The Salvation Army is hierarchical, you don't want to let the boss know you're not doing
the best job. You want to look good to the person who is above you. You don't tell your superiors
"I'm failing in my responsibilities, I'm goofing up."
116. Things weren't terribly comfortable for Cliff after we returned to lndooroopilly from Sydney.
Word got back to Captain Mciver. Thinking back, it could well have been because Colonel
Peterson contacted Brigadier Reddy, or Captain Mciver himself.
117. Cliff and I were tolerated and treated with due courtesy, but not with the same kind of
friendliness - not that there was an awful lot of friendliness before we left for Sydney.
118. One of the boys, ~IH_M ______ ~I and his brother REDACTED were brought to
the Home because their mother could not cope with them . ~was about 12 to 14 years of
age. She was a "poor me" kind of woman . She would visit the boys every blue moon, and she
would say to them and to me "They are naughty boys, they will be the death of me yet." They
weren't naughty boys, they were nice kids.
119. One day, Cliff and I had to tell IHM rnd .that their mother had actually died. The ~--
boys' reaction was horrible. They didn't scream or cry. They weren't catatonic, but they
withdrew into themselves. They had a scared, horrified look in their eyes, like a rabbit in the
f ~~., ..:... ... . _
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STAT.0110.001.0021_M
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Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued Page 21 of
25
headlights. They would say "Mum always said we'd be the death of her, it's our fault that she's
dead."
120. IHM rnd gwent into shock. In the highly structured environment of the Home there ~---
was no room for the boys to actually react - scream and cry, or grieve. In the mix of them trying
to cope with their mother's death, part of the reaction was that~IH_M_~lran away.
121. We were concerned about him, but he was brought back by the police. The next thing I knew
IHM fame into the House, he said something had happened in the office with Captain
' Mciver. I could see that his shoulder was dislocated . I was very upset. I looked at ~and
said "I can't fix that, we need to go to the hospital."
122. Cliff came across to the House, he was still a bit upset and angry. I said "~IH_M_~ls shoulder is
dislocated, he needs to go to the hospital to get it put back in. I can't do that." Cliff said "I'll get
the pool car and we'll take him."
123. But Captain Mciver said "You're not having the car, if the boy's shoulder is dislocated that's
easily fixed. Bring him over here." Mciver then came out of the office to make sure that Cliff
went to the House and got the boy.
124. I was concerned . I thought Captain Mciver would look at the shoulder, see that it was
dislocated, and let us take the boy to the hospital. But Mciver used a tennis ball under the boy's
arm to put his shoulder back in. I was horrified - the pain that the kid would have had, and the
damage that Mciver could have done. It really upset me. I tried to calm the boy down, he
eventually settled.
·•, ...
w'k "c,signature: .. ~1. ..... £~ ... ........... ·. : ... w.1.rnessmo.. ...... ~ ... ... .
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STAT.0110.001.0022_M
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Statement in the matter of !Case Study' 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Page 2 2 of 25
125. Jan Doyle, the social worker for the Home, came later in the day. Jan often used to see the
boys before she let Cliff and I know she was on the property. Often she'd then pop into the
House and have a cup of tea, and we'd talk.
126. Jan said "What happened to~IH_M_~r He told me that Captain Mciver did it." Cliff told the
story of what had happened in the office. Jan was upset. She went away and Cliff and I didn't
hear any more about it until the next day.
127. Cliff was a little late coming back to our unit after taking the boys to school. When he came
in he said "We've been told by Captain Mciver to be off the property before the boys get home
from school." I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach, I said "We can't just walk out on the
kids, that's ridiculous." Cliff said " I'll talk to Brigadier Ready."
128. Cliff went to see Brigadier Ready, the Social Services Secretary. But Ready had already heard
about it all from Captain Mciver. Ready called Cliff and me liars. He said we weren't to be
believed and that "You are to leave the property as directed by the Manager." Cliff and I were
devastated that we had been treated by The Salvation Army as liars, and that we had been told
to get out.
129. Our son, Graeme, was two and a half. Cliff and I couldn't just up and leave within a space of
five hours. Cliff went back to Captain Mciver and said "We can't pack up in that time. At first
Mciver said "You've got 24 hours," but then he relented and said "You've got 48 hours, and no
more."
130. Cliff and I went and spoke to Jan Doyle, and a couple of other people in her office.
131. Cliff and I didn't know where we were going to go, what we were going to do. We quickly
packed up and we left. It was made plain to us that we were not to have any interaction with the
... : WiJ:.: .. . Signature:.A .. J?.~ ...... ....... '. '> .. ~.w1~ness: ........ . ~<0.. ........... .
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·Statement in the matter of.Case Study s Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
Page 23 1of 25
boys. If they came to speak to us, we were not to speak to them . I was devastated that I couldn't
say goodbye. It felt awful to know we'd left the boys in that way.
132. Cliff and I didn't have any family in Brisbane. We got in the car and headed towards Sydney
where my parents lived. We stayed overnight in a motel and arrived in Sydney the next day. We
had phoned my parents and told them that we were coming, and my parents graciously took us
in. We lived with them for a couple of months until we were able to rent a unit of our own.
133. I understand Children's Services started to pull children out of lndooroopilly very quickly
after we left.
134. After about three months in Sydney, Colonel Peterson asked to see Cliff and me. We were in
Peterson's office for about two hours, he really grilled us over some of the things we said had
happened at the Home. Peterson called in Brigadier Jean Geddes, and she was also very strong in
grilling us, and trying to disprove what we were saying. At the end of the two hours Geddes left.
Peterson just sat there and with tears in his eyes he said "I'm sorry that it ever happened."
135. Later on Colonel Peterson offered Cliff and me another job with the Army, but at that stage
we were hurting too much. We just said "no, we couldn't ."
After lndooroopilly
136. At the time we were at lndooroopilly, Cliff and I were not officers or envoys of The Salvation
Army, we were candidates. We had nothing, and we were trying to build our financial resources
to go to College when all of this happened. So we switched from building our resources to go to
College to building our resources to buy a house. We just didn't want to have anything to do with
the Army.
. .·
.Signature: ..... g_.~£..Ov.ri~: ........ :"'::· .. 11-Z/JLJ.!Atd Witness: ..... c·r;;f'""-..-:·~· "'="" · ........ ... ........... .
STAT.0110.001.0023_M_R
Statement in the ma'tter!o f Case Study 5 Statement of Marina Helene Randall continued
·! Page 214 of 25
137. During our time at lndooroopilly, Cliff and I were constantly told that we would never make it
as officers.
138. Cliff and I were eventually accepted for Salvation Army officer training in July 1976. We
entered college in March 1977, and were commissioned and ordained in 1979. Shown to me and
marked TSAE.0120.01017.0017 and TSAE.0120.01017 .0018 respectively are copies of our
accepted applications for officer training.
139. In my career as an Officer I had a 9-year appointment on the Public Questions Board (1994 -
2002) (now The Salvation Army Moral and Social Issues Council) . At a national meeting in 1994, a
member from the Southern Territory who worked in Workplace Relations asked the Board to
consider how The Salvation Army should address inappropriate behaviour by officers. Most
Board members responded as follows, "Officers of The Salvation Army wouldn' t misbehave.
There would be no problems, and they are covered by a covenant." I thought to myself "What
planet are you on?" I spoke up at the meeting, I was quite strong at the time.
140. I believe that it was out of that meeting that came the Professional Standards Office and the
Personal Injuries Complaints Committee (PICC) . It was a slow process, but the PICC was well
under way in 1998/99.
141. The Professional Standards Office (PSO) is responsible fo r complaints handling in relation to
allegations of misconduct by officers and lay workers of the Army - past and present. The PICC is
responsible for monitoring - to some degree - the actions of the PSO, and for deciding on and
approving any compensation to be given to complainants.
142. In 1999 I was appointed to the PICC.
. _ Signatur_e_ : ,i(.{~ .~ ....... .... . Witness: .... .. .. ~ ....... .. .
STAT.0110.001.0024_M
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I . i. : 1 !1 :· Page 25 of 25
143. In 1999, I became aware of a lawsuit that was brought to the Committee's attention, which
named Captain Wilson as a perpetrator against three victims. Even then, the PICC, and Major Ken
Middleton, the Legal Secretary, showed naivety, and a lack of understanding about these
accusations.
144. In 2003 Cliff and I were each awarded the Australian Centenary Medal. Cliffs award was for
his work at the Foster House Complex, which provided accommodation for homeless men. My
award was for services to the community. Shown to me and marked TSAE.0120.01017.0050 is a
copy of a letter of congratulations from Lieutenant Colonel Ray Wilson, the Divisional
Commander.
145. Cliff retired in June 2004. Cliff took an early retirement because of his health.
146. I chose to retire at the end of January in 2012, after I turned 60. The catalyst for that choice
was the fact that I have macular degeneration.
147. In May of 2013 I started work in The Salvation Army's Professional Standards Office in a
volunteer capacity. Shortly after I started work, the Administrative Manager resigned and left the
office very quickly. I began to pick up more and more of the administrative duties, and
volunteered to come in more frequently in that capacity. Presently, I work in the office four days
a week .
Signed : .... !.d.~ ... ~ .... ...... . Date:
Witness:
Date:
. _ Sjgnatur.e :_J-.(L_/2.~ ....... ...... . Witness: .. ,CJJ~·-· ............ .
STAT.0110.001.0025_M
ME3
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