allison pete palmer

8/2/2019 Allison Pete Palmer

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00:00:6.00,00:00:11.98With us in this episode is Professor Palmer

00:00:12.00,00:00:18.98When we met with him and showed him aspects of the scientific miracles of the Quran and Sunnah

00:00:19.00,00:00:21.98he was *astonished*

00:00:22.00,00:00:22.98He said

00:00:23.00,00:00:31.48:"This is an *amazing* book. It describes the past, present, and future!"

00:00:31.50,00:00:42.48But he is like other scientists. They are hesitant at first, then they declare what they believe

00:00:42.5,00:00:49.98He presented a paper in Cairo about the miraculousness (of the Quran) in the field of Geology

00:00:50.0,00:00:55.98

Then concluded his paper, saying

00:00:56.0,00:01:06.00:"I don't know the cultural level of the people at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) or their scientific level,

00:01:06.02,00:01:16.98"but if it is the same as we know of early people and their modest scientific level that didn't have such abilities

00:01:17.00,00:01:20.98"then there is *no doubt* that this knowledge which we read now in the Quran

00:01:21.00,00:01:27.48"is light from the divine knowledge that has been revealed to Muhammad (pbuh)"

00:01:27.5,00:01:32.98Here he is ending his research with the following statement

00:01:33.0,00:01:35.98:"We *need research* into the history of early middle eastern oral traditions,

00:01:36.0,00:01:41.98


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"to know whether in fact such historical events have been recorded

00:01:42.0,00:01:47.98"If there is no such record it *strengthens the belief* that god transmitted through Muhammad bits of his knowledge

00:01:48.0,00:01:52.98"that we have only discovered for ourselves in recent times

00:01:53.00,00:01:58.03"We look forward to *continuing dialogue* on the topic of science in the Quran

00:01:58.05,00:01:59.98"in the context of Geology

00:02:00.00,00:02:02.98"Thank you very much!"

00:02:03.00,00:02:04.98In the 1980's Allison (Pete) Palmer was invited to participate in what he was told was

00:02:05.00,00:02:06.98an exercise to try to reconcile modern scientific discoveries against the Quran

by re-interpreting the meaning of the Arabic words00:02:07.00,00:02:08.98After helping with this exercise his comments were taken out of context and presented to the world

00:02:09.00,00:02:11.03as if Pete Palmer believed there was good scientific reason to believe the Quranwas of divine origin

00:02:11.05,00:02:13.03These clips were compiled into a video called "This is the truth" - various clips are available on YouTube and pro-Islamic websites

00:02:13.05,00:02:16.03This is the truth uncut - Allison (Pete) Palmer

00:02:16.04,00:02:21.52Yeah, so, if we start I'll ask you to say your name

00:02:21.53,00:02:23.98so that people will know who it is I am talking to

00:02:24.0,00:02:27.18So could you tell me your name please?

00:02:27.2,00:02:29.79My name is Pete Palmer

00:02:29.81,00:02:34.98And is your alias Allison "open-bracket" Pete "close-bracket" Palmer?

00:02:35.00,00:02:38.28The given name was Allison

00:02:38.29,00:02:41.06


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My parents called me Pete from the start

00:02:41.07,00:02:45.19Right okay, I wondered why you chose "Pete"

00:02:45.20,00:02:48.13I wondered if that was a name you chose later, but no

00:02:48.15,00:02:51.98They chose it because on their honeymoon they met an Italian fisherman

00:02:52.0,00:02:55.68named Peter Pipperchelli, who they really thought was pretty neat

00:02:55.7,00:03:02.51and after they gave me this family name, the "Allison" is my father's name and his father's name

00:03:02.52,00:03:06.10They said "That's not a name to call a little kid"

00:03:06.11,00:03:08.98and uh... they didn't like anybody being called "Al"

00:03:09.0,00:03:12.98and my middle name was already occupied by my mother's brother

00:03:13.0,00:03:15.98and by one of my cousins who were in town

00:03:16.0,00:03:24.88So there were too many Ralphies around so they just said they were going to callme "Pete"

00:03:24.90,00:03:31.19You were featured in a video called "This is the truth"

00:03:31.20,00:03:38.84which was a recording of various scientists at various different events

00:03:38.85,00:03:42.09What I would like to ask you first...

00:03:42.10,00:03:46.98What was your first point of contact in this whole affair?

00:03:47.0,00:03:50.98Well the very first point of contact was the telephone call I received

00:03:51.0,00:03:56.48

in January of 1985 from Mustafa Ahmad

00:03:56.5,00:04:02.00who is the north American representative of this group headed by Zindani

00:04:02.01,00:04:08.98and he asked me if I would be willing to answer questions about statements in the Quran

00:04:09.0,00:04:13.53


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that had some scientific implications

00:04:13.54,00:04:17.58and I said "Yeah I'd like to do that" and they said "Could we come out to Boulder?"

00:04:17.6,00:04:18.74He was in Chicago

00:04:18.75,00:04:23.26"Could we come out to Boulder and could we do a meet?"

00:04:23.27,00:04:30.30So I said yes and he arrived a few days later, I don't know how much later, witha colleague

00:04:30.31,00:04:34.68with intentions of having me answer about thirty questions, and I said

00:04:34.7,00:04:40.33"Wait a minute, I can't give you honest answers to most of these because these aren't my field"

00:04:40.34,00:04:45.07

But then we talked and I agreed to try to line up some folks who might help them, where I could

00:04:45.09,00:04:50.98and that was where we left that first contact, as I recall

00:04:51.0,00:04:54.88Was one of the people you recommended Bill Hay, is that right?

00:04:54.9,00:05:01.78Yeah, I recommended... I didn't tell Mustafa that until I had checked

00:05:01.8,00:05:07.38

I had people I knew who I thought might possibly be open to having a conversionlike this

00:05:07.4,00:05:11.28Most of my colleagues wouldn't touch any kind of conversation regarding theology

00:05:11.3,00:05:13.46with a ten foot pole!

00:05:13.47,00:05:18.58So I knew Peter (Hildebrand) and I knew Bill (Hay) and so I checked with them and asked if would they be interested

00:05:18.6,00:05:23.23and they said that sounded kind of fascinating

00:05:23.25,00:05:27.86During this phone call when they were explaining the purpose...

00:05:27.88,00:05:32.38Now, you mentioned briefly what they said the purpose was

00:05:32.4,00:05:36.63


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Can you elaborate on that at all? What they were saying was the purpose of this?

00:05:36.65,00:05:41.88Well I don't remember exactly which one of several early contacts...

00:05:41.90,00:05:46.75Probably know when he came out to my office I wanted to know the purpose, more about this thing

00:05:46.77,00:05:49.65The purpose as I understood it

00:05:49.67,00:05:56.36was any a periodic evaluation of statements in the Quran

00:05:56.38,00:06:00.18to see how we understand those statements today

00:06:00.2,00:06:04.33In that the Quran *had* to be the word of god and therefore

00:06:04.35,00:06:10.82they wanted to know exactly what god had in mind [laughs] you know

00:06:10.84,00:06:15.34That was what I understood we were doing was to try to clarify

00:06:15.36,00:06:20.78how you understood these *vague* statements that were in the Quran in terms of modern knowledge

00:06:20.80,00:06:22.55Right, so by periodic then

00:06:22.57,00:06:27.88does that suggest that he was implying that this is something that they do everynow and again?

00:06:27.9,00:06:28.28Yeah!

00:06:28.3,00:06:33.41They look at the Quran, look at the words, look at what the science says, and say:

00:06:33.43,00:06:36.14"This is what the Quran must mean in that case"?

00:06:36.16,00:06:38.07Yeah, exactly!

00:06:38.09,00:06:43.58So it was kind of a, well, effectively a retro-fitting exercise?

00:06:43.6,00:06:45.48The thing is that's perfectly okay

00:06:45.5,00:06:49.06you look in the old testament you get some of these vague statements


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00:06:49.08,00:06:53.88how would we understand how they came by these statements?

00:06:53.90,00:06:58.72How did they get this information? How did they get these impressions?

00:06:58.74,00:07:02.47And so we said "Yeah, I'm sure springs come out of the ground"

00:07:02.49,00:07:06.78"and the rain, and the water cycle", we know a lot more about it now than they did

00:07:06.8,00:07:11.48but they had a vague perceptions of these things

00:07:11.5,00:07:18.98During these early contacts I believe that they invited you to an interview in Jedda

00:07:19.0,00:07:20.53Yeah!

00:07:20.55,00:07:26.98

and they said that the purpose of this event in Jedda was the same thing I presume?

00:07:27.0,00:07:32.88Well I don't recall the reason they gave, what they specifically said was the purpose

00:07:32.9,00:07:36.31unless I wrote it in that document I wrote after I got back

00:07:36.33,00:07:39.28but I think they were basically vetting me

00:07:39.3,00:07:46.98to see if I could be a part of this dog and pony show that we ultimately createdthat went around

00:07:47.0,00:07:52.18I think that actually probably succeeded the Cairo meeting

00:07:52.2,00:07:55.98The first meeting was in Cairo, a short time after I was in Jedda

00:07:56.0,00:07:58.91a few months (later) I guess, I don't know what it was

00:07:58.93,00:08:04.48It was fairly soon after I was in Jedda I was invited to come back to Cairo, bring my wife

00:08:04.50,00:08:07.91and be a part of this conference

00:08:07.93,00:08:11.59And I think...


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00:08:11.61,00:08:17.70that by then I had the written text of what I was trying to say

00:08:17.72,00:08:20.22What I have now, my penultimate version

00:08:20.24,00:08:22.98I have a whole bunch of versions without dates on them

00:08:23.0,00:08:25.41so I'm not quite sure when they all came

00:08:25.43,00:08:30.76but the penultimate version which was shortly before our last contact

00:08:30.78,00:08:35.26is not that much different from what we started with, just a few minor tweaks

00:08:35.28,00:08:43.44Always I would approve the text as I read it

00:08:43.46,00:08:46.98As I would read it I would clear with Mustafa

00:08:47.0,00:08:52.68so that he knew what I was saying and it was okay with them

00:08:52.7,00:08:54.98So I didn't feel uncomfortable in the text

00:08:55.0,00:08:56.98because in the text I was basically saying

00:08:57.0,00:09:00.47"But we have to establish," that was the point of my text

00:09:00.49,00:09:05.28

"We have to establish there was no way for this knowledge to have been extent"00:09:05.3,00:09:09.28Because almost all the things that I was given

00:09:09.3,00:09:13.58you could understand as being perceptions

00:09:13.6,00:09:18.40extent at the time of the writing (creation) of the Quran

00:09:18.42,00:09:22.51After your initial contact, your initial contact was January

00:09:22.53,00:09:32.19the Jedda event according to the document you sent me was in August of the sameyear

00:09:32.21,00:09:36.61and they did an interview with you in front of cameras, do you remember that?

00:09:36.63,00:09:41.38How long did that go on for, do you recall?


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00:09:41.4,00:09:43.38I think I may have written that (down)...

00:09:43.4,00:09:47.28It went on for parts of more than one day, I think it was a couple of days

00:09:47.3,00:09:52.42They had a video studio at the Abdulaziz University

00:09:52.44,00:09:59.38and in the studio were three or four members of the geology faculty at the university

00:09:59.4,00:10:05.18each of whom had been a student of somebody I knew back in the U.S.

00:10:05.2,00:10:11.28and they were there listening to this conversation as I was being video taped

00:10:11.3,00:10:11.98[Phone rings]

00:10:12.0,00:10:15.16

Oh nuts, here goes my phone again!00:10:15.18,00:10:20.98Carry on and I'll keep recording

00:10:21.0,00:10:22.98Palmers

00:10:23.00,00:10:25.68(Listens)

00:10:25.7,00:10:29.98No, I'm in the middle of a long distance Skype conversation, I can't talk. Thank

you00:10:30.0,00:10:34.51Bah, I hate this. Money calls!

00:10:34.53,00:10:40.98Even on a Saturday they want you to give a contribution to this, contribute to that

00:10:41.0,00:10:43.39Sorry about that!

00:10:43.41,00:10:49.92

From your notes, you said that when you arrived in August

00:10:49.94,00:10:54.28Zindani reinterpreted the English translations of the Quran

00:10:54.3,00:10:57.58in order to make them more geologically accurate

00:10:57.6,00:11:01.14and then you would say in front of the camera


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00:11:01.16,00:11:04.58what you and Zindani had agreed that this idea might imply?

00:11:04.6,00:11:05.53Yeah!

00:11:05.55,00:11:06.98Does that sound fair?

00:11:07.0,00:11:12.09I think that's right, I don't remember the details of that but yeah...

00:11:12.11,00:11:17.85I was trying to make sure that what he was getting was acceptable

00:11:17.87,00:11:21.96in terms of what we now knew, so yeah

00:11:21.98,00:11:30.11According to your notes this meeting ended with you being asked an unexpected question

00:11:30.13,00:11:32.37

That I don't remember, did I say that?00:11:32.39,00:11:35.68"How could Muhammad have known?"

00:11:35.70,00:11:37.98Well that, they probably asked that and I said

00:11:38.0,00:11:43.51"We have to establish that, we don't know that"

00:11:43.53,00:11:46.03I think that in most cases he would have had to have known

00:11:46.05,00:11:50.98but we have to establish there was *no* way for him to know

00:11:51.0,00:11:54.98And then you also said that Zindani asked to help you

00:11:55.0,00:11:58.28to create a draft of a paper summarising the visit

00:11:58.3,00:12:02.04which was going to be presented in...

00:12:02.06,00:12:04.58I think that was the one you were going to present in Cairo,

00:12:04.6,00:12:08.38so Zindani helped you to go through the draft of that paper did he?

00:12:08.4,00:12:10.98Yeah, we worked that draft back and forth

00:12:11.0,00:12:14.38


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It was Zindani and myself, and I think Mustafa was involved

00:12:14.4,00:12:17.14I think we were co-authors

00:12:17.16,00:12:20.11We were listed as co-authors

00:12:20.13,00:12:26.28and we worked that over so that I was comfortable with the text

00:12:26.3,00:12:28.28and they were comfortable with the text

00:12:28.3,00:12:32.38but it was a text that was essentially sceptical

00:12:32.4,00:12:37.38So the purpose of this wasn't really to

00:12:37.4,00:12:44.38portray the opinion that this is all miraculous information?

00:12:44.4,00:12:46.44

Oh no!00:12:46.46,00:12:47.96It was supposed to be...

00:12:47.98,00:12:52.61this is how we can intepret the meanings of these vague words

00:12:52.63,00:13:00.13but we have to be sceptical about how people would have known this kind of thing?

00:13:00.15,00:13:03.64

I mean, there was nothing in the geological stuff00:13:03.66,00:13:08.69that could not have been extent in knowledge in the middle east

00:13:08.71,00:13:14.50The only part in all the various things we were given

00:13:14.52,00:13:20.07that was difficult to understand as being extent knowledge was

00:13:20.09,00:13:22.82this embryological stuff

00:13:22.84,00:13:26.24But the geological stuff all of that, seemed to me...

00:13:26.26,00:13:27.97was uh...

00:13:27.99,00:13:32.12you could kind of fudge it to say, uh...


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00:13:32.14,00:13:33.12(Changes thought)

00:13:33.14,00:13:37.98Those experiences were the kind of experiences people would have in the middle east

00:13:38.0,00:13:43.50They could be known. There was nothing that precluded that

00:13:43.52,00:13:48.06And of course the embryology part wasn't your field of expertise

00:13:48.08,00:13:52.18No, but it created an interesting question because

00:13:52.2,00:14:01.00how could you know about microscopic things long before the invention of the microscope?

00:14:01.02,00:14:02.28So that was was just one of those things.

00:14:02.3,00:14:05.74

I said "Well there's got to be an answer, but I don't know what it is"00:14:05.76,00:14:09.20Was this a low-key event?

00:14:09.22,00:14:14.23The one in Jedda was low-key

00:14:14.25,00:14:19.74The one in Cairo had a big audience, it was mostly medical people

00:14:19.76,00:14:24.48and of course the big stuff that they were excited about

00:14:24.5,00:14:26.48was the embryological stuff

00:14:26.5,00:14:29.95I don't think my stuff made much difference or much impact

00:14:29.97,00:14:31.98but we during the time we were there...

00:14:32.0,00:14:34.98and I wish I had written my notes down clearly

00:14:35.0,00:14:42.04I met with, I don't know whether it was the Islamic Brotherhood, some major organism / group

00:14:42.06,00:14:46.13I met with the secretary general of this group and I had conversations with him

00:14:46.15,00:14:50.25and I just don't find in my notes his name or anything, but


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00:14:50.27,00:14:56.55we went to his home and sat around with a dozen people and had a conversation

00:14:56.57,00:15:01.80It was kind of interesting but I didn't write down many of the details of that for some reason

00:15:01.82,00:15:05.37It wasn't directly related to the conference

00:15:05.39,00:15:11.48but it was while we were in Cairo I had this opportunity to have this meeting and conversation

00:15:11.50,00:15:15.48I don't know whether it was the Arab league, I don't remember exactly what it was called

00:15:15.5,00:15:19.32and I can't find a note that tells me

00:15:19.34,00:15:27.19Yes, this is the Cairo meeting isn't it that happened late September until earlyOctober?

00:15:27.21,00:15:33.40Yeah that was Cairo!

00:15:33.42,00:15:40.47At the end of the event you all had a nice time at king Faruk's weekend palace Ibelieve?

00:15:40.49,00:15:46.40I don't remember the palace. I remember that there was some kind of a good dinner, a banquet

00:15:46.42,00:15:47.98

but I don't remember where it was00:15:48.00,00:15:50.48The only palace I remember was in Islamabad

00:15:50.5,00:15:55.22when we were in Zia Al Haq's palace

00:15:55.24,00:15:57.48and he gave a lecture to the whole group

00:15:57.5,00:16:03.51and we stayed for dinner. It was a spectacular, really neat event!

00:16:03.53,00:16:09.23But that was in Islamabad, that was the next conference

00:16:09.25,00:16:12.76Actually I remember when I was talking to Bill (William Hay)

00:16:12.78,00:16:20.20I think it was you he said he was with when you noticed that there were no womenpresent at the meal?


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00:16:20.22,00:16:26.37Yeah, and what was interesting there was one woman that we talked to

00:16:26.39,00:16:29.98who was the vice president for education in Pakistan or something

00:16:30.0,00:16:32.32well up high in the government, but it was a woman

00:16:32.34,00:16:36.21and she and Pat my wife got talking

00:16:36.23,00:16:41.69and we found out that she was very uncomfortable about coming to this meeting

00:16:41.71,00:16:47.24because it was all men, she felt uncomfortable about it

00:16:47.26,00:16:49.36We found that kind of interesting

00:16:49.38,00:16:54.35that even though she was very high up in the government she felt uncomfortable

00:16:54.37,00:17:00.05being in the conference. I think the women were there

00:17:00.07,00:17:05.00there were the wives of myself and Peter Hildebrand

00:17:05.02,00:17:06.78and this lady

00:17:06.8,00:17:11.31they had separate table in the dining area

00:17:11.33,00:17:14.19in Zia Al Haq's palace

00:17:14.21,00:17:17.69but the woman said she was pretty uncomfortable

00:17:17.71,00:17:30.38being included, in a sense because it was somehow not Muslim

00:17:30.40,00:17:40.44(Pete Palmer has a short conversation with his wife)

00:17:40.46,00:17:44.73

Do you need to end early and do this another time?

00:17:44.75,00:17:45.98What's that?

00:17:46.0,00:17:48.49Do you need to end early and do this another time?

00:17:48.51,00:17:50.97I'm fine!


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00:17:50.99,00:17:55.56This affair in Cairo I believe ended in a bit of a furor?

00:17:55.58,00:18:01.57When you made a suggestion about the implications of Muhammad's illiteracy

00:18:01.59,00:18:05.36No, that was in Islamabad

00:18:05.38,00:18:07.80And that was after Cairo was it?

00:18:07.82,00:18:10.58That was after Cairo!

00:18:10.60,00:18:13.08Exactly when I do not remember what dates they were

00:18:13.10,00:18:19.44we went to Islamabad and that was the conference where I responded to a couple of Egyptians

00:18:19.46,00:18:25.79

who, when I suggested that we have to know there was no way for Muhammad to be involved in this,

00:18:25.81,00:18:28.48(the Egyptians) stood up and challenged me and said "But Muhammad was illiterate!"

00:18:28.5,00:18:32.28and I said "There's a difference between being illiterate and being stupid...

00:18:32.3,00:18:35.48"and I think he was probably a very brilliant man"

00:18:35.50,00:18:41.67and that got me in trouble, rescued partly by a jet-black Somali supreme court judge

00:18:41.69,00:18:45.65who was trained in England and had perfect Oxford English

00:18:45.67,00:18:47.98who stood up in the audience and said

00:18:48.0,00:18:55.91"He's right. We have to know that there was no way for this knowledge to have been extent in Muhammad's time"

00:18:55.93,00:19:00.99That was a big audience, there were several hundred people there, a couple of hundred at least

00:19:01.01,00:19:04.98and most of them were just hanging on these words about the embryology

00:19:05.0,00:19:14.56and my stuff was pretty much peripheral because I didn't have anything that they


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really could hang a case on

00:19:14.58,00:19:21.86At the end of these events Zindani created this video collection called "This isthe truth"

00:19:21.88,00:19:29.21Which in summary is supposed to be a large collection of western scientists

00:19:29.23,00:19:34.49that studied the Quran and all came to the conclusion

00:19:34.51,00:19:38.23either that they thought it was from some divine origin

00:19:38.25,00:19:41.88or that they were absolutely dumbfounded as to an explanation

00:19:41.9,00:19:44.74but weren't quite prepared to make that leap

00:19:44.76,00:19:59.62In your case what he says, I had someone translate it for me...

00:19:59.64,00:20:03.84"I don't know the cultural level which the people at the time of Muhammad..."

00:20:03.86,00:20:09.32I've got that quote here, yeah

00:20:09.34,00:20:16.47Now that quote, yeah I've got that here. I'm not sure is that supposed to be a quote from me?

00:20:16.49,00:20:21.84Just before you reply to that can I just read it out for the sake of the recording

00:20:21.86,00:20:24.75So that people know what you are responding to

00:20:24.77,00:20:29.35It says that you don't know what level the people were on at the time

00:20:29.37,00:20:35.50(Loses place in the quote from Zindani's video)

00:20:35.52,00:20:40.90Basically that these people couldn't have known these things, erm...

00:20:40.92,00:20:42.82(Finds place in quote from Zindani's video)

00:20:42.84,00:20:47.38"There is no doubt that this knowledge which we read now in the Quran...

00:20:47.4,00:20:52.87"is light from the divine knowledge that has been revealed to Muhammad"

00:20:52.89,00:20:54.58


16/26

That's not me!

00:20:54.6,00:20:56.48(Both laugh)

00:20:56.5,00:20:59.25Not me! I never would have said that!

00:20:59.27,00:21:02.87So at no point did you suggest that there would be no doubt

00:21:02.89,00:21:06.15that this information in the Quran is from a divine origin?

00:21:06.17,00:21:12.12Oh no! Because I was a total (sceptic) I totally didn't believe that that was (the case)

00:21:12.14,00:21:14.70There were rational explanations for everything!

00:21:14.72,00:21:19.41Just because we couldn't understand how to explain a couple of them (the embryology) that didn't mean

00:21:19.43,00:21:21.68that that was therefore divine knowledge

00:21:21.7,00:21:25.56I think we had to be sure there was not an explanation

00:21:25.58,00:21:36.13and the one mystery was the embryonic stuff and I found an explanation that satisfied me anyhow long after we had finished

00:21:36.15,00:21:41.51I thought that this part of the video was a bit suspicious

00:21:41.53,00:21:46.72because if you had said that there's no doubt that this is information from a divine origin

00:21:46.74,00:21:50.04that they would have said "Look what he said next"

00:21:50.06,00:21:54.58and then put the video footage on of you saying those words

00:21:54.60,00:22:00.87but effectively the most juicy part of what you were alleged to have said wasn't

shown

00:22:00.89,00:22:03.12And Zindani simply presented...

00:22:03.14,00:22:08.67"Oh, by the way. After that he went on to tell me that he thought all of this was probably from god"

00:22:08.69,00:22:14.10


17/26

So I always thought that bit was a little bit suspicious to say the least

00:22:14.12,00:22:22.38I never to my knowledge believed that this had a divine origin

00:22:22.4,00:22:26.98It had a rational human origin

00:22:27.00,00:22:29.98Another thing that I remember reading from that script

00:22:30.0,00:22:35.83is that you were apparently astonished by the accuracy of the information in theQuran

00:22:35.85,00:22:39.98and you said "What is this wonderful book?"

00:22:40.0,00:22:43.88(Laughing) That doesn't sound like me at all!

00:22:43.90,00:22:50.07I believe that the information he asked you to look at was something about the lowest point?

00:22:50.09,00:22:53.34Yeah, that was in the first interview in Jedda

00:22:53.36,00:22:55.48where they had this uh...

00:22:55.5,00:22:57.69I brought my globe with me

00:22:57.71,00:23:00.23I remember this globe, it's a really neat globe

00:23:00.25,00:23:05.70it was put out by the national geographic probably forty years or more ago

00:23:05.72,00:23:09.46They had this statement, and it was right there printed on the globe was

00:23:09.48,00:23:11.77"Lowest point on Earth"

00:23:11.79,00:23:17.45and so I said that's kinda neat that the Quran mentions that

00:23:17.47,00:23:22.94

but that doesn't prove anything particularly because they just happen to be in the right area

00:23:22.96,00:23:32.14How would you explain that information being within the possibility of human knowledge of the time?

00:23:32.16,00:23:38.00Is that something that you would be able to see, you would be able to look around and say


18/26

00:23:38.02,00:23:41.29"This looks like it is the lowest place in the region"?

00:23:41.31,00:23:46.58I mean, the people of that time I think, yeah that was problably known

00:23:46.6,00:23:52.38that that was the lowest point in their area / their world

00:23:52.4,00:23:58.78It just happened that the Quran had it right, but it wasn't because it was a bitof divine knowledge

00:23:58.8,00:24:05.00that was merely the middle eastern state of the union

00:24:05.02,00:24:09.78So it was possible that it was known locally as "The lowest place"?

00:24:09.80,00:24:12.78Yeah, sure!

00:24:12.8,00:24:16.98

We discussed this before and you said something about, it's possible to see00:24:17.0,00:24:19.99that this is the lowest place because it would be the only place

00:24:20.01,00:24:23.41where you can see that you are lower than sea level?

00:24:23.43,00:24:25.22Does that sound familiar?

00:24:25.24,00:24:26.10uh...

00:24:26.12,00:24:30.97I don't recall saying it quite like that because I wouldn't know...

00:24:30.99,00:24:36.36I probably didn't think about it, how would they measure?

00:24:36.38,00:24:39.78They would have to have some way of getting some crude measurement

00:24:39.8,00:24:45.68that said this was lower than the Red sea and maybe that's all

00:24:45.7,00:24:48.85they just figured that out, they had some sense of elevations by then,

00:24:48.87,00:24:53.90and maybe the Romans had done that

00:24:53.92,00:24:59.98They had that knowledge but I just thought it was kinda neat

00:25:00.0,00:25:03.74


19/26

that they had it as the lowest point and that's what the globe showed it as

00:25:03.76,00:25:08.17but that didn't mean anything else!

00:25:08.19,00:25:13.34Really this is basically the end of my prepared questions

00:25:13.36,00:25:19.15There are a few question I will ask which are a bit silly

00:25:19.17,00:25:25.84but I have to ask these because of the kind of responses I've had to my other interviews

00:25:25.86,00:25:31.13So the first one...

00:25:31.15,00:25:32.98Did you become a Muslim?

00:25:33.0,00:25:35.43No!

00:25:35.45,00:25:42.47Have you been paid by me or anybody else in order to participate in the interview we are having now?

00:25:42.49,00:25:43.84No, not a bit!

00:25:43.86,00:25:52.04Have you been intimidated by anyone to retract your original statements?

00:25:52.06,00:25:58.78No, my original statements as you've got them may not be quite accurate

00:25:58.80,00:26:02.37but I haven't been intimidated by anybody

00:26:02.39,00:26:04.68Are you (laughs)

00:26:04.70,00:26:08.25Are you in fact an imposter?

00:26:08.27,00:26:10.32What do you mean by that?

00:26:10.34,00:26:16.98

I don't know, could you possibly be an actor with a latex mask on? (Laughs)

00:26:17.0,00:26:23.52No, I don't do all that stuff

00:26:23.54,00:26:26.60I had to ask you that one because I have actually been asked

00:26:26.62,00:26:30.58"How do I know this isn't an actor with a latex mask on?" (Laughs)


20/26

00:26:30.60,00:26:35.28Sure I mean that's fair enough, but I don't know how you could prove it's not

00:26:35.3,00:26:38.76Pull at your face or something? (Laughs)

00:26:38.78,00:26:42.78No, I don't think we'll go down that route!

00:26:42.80,00:26:48.02What struck me with this whole series of events

00:26:48.04,00:26:54.28was that different scientists went to different venues at different times

00:26:54.3,00:26:58.87and they all seem to have had different experiences

00:26:58.89,00:27:04.92In Bill Hay's case he was told that he was trying to

00:27:04.94,00:27:08.98he was trying to help the Mullahs feel more comfortable about science

00:27:09.00,00:27:15.96and to convince them that their religion said that they should really be embracing science

00:27:15.98,00:27:22.48Alfred Kroner said the meeting he went to had nothing to do with religion what so ever

00:27:22.5,00:27:25.18it was just a geology meeting

00:27:25.20,00:27:30.49

and then they sprung some cameras on them and asked them lots of leading questions

00:27:30.51,00:27:39.30Your case seems to be probably the very initial point of contact

00:27:39.32,00:27:43.10where they were saying that they were reviewing the meanings of the Quran

00:27:43.12,00:27:45.76to make sure that they've got them correct

00:27:45.78,00:27:49.81

uh... that they are matching them up to what science says now

00:27:49.83,00:27:56.49Because you did a kind of pre-written talk

00:27:56.51,00:28:00.69it's obviously not been so easy to quote mine you

00:28:00.71,00:28:04.42and you actually haven't had any people write to you


21/26

00:28:04.44,00:28:07.36and ask "Do you believe that the Quran is from god?"

00:28:07.38,00:28:08.08Is that right?

00:28:08.1,00:28:11.18Oh no, no, never!

00:28:11.20,00:28:15.77Your experience is really in contrast to other people because

00:28:15.79,00:28:20.52Alfred (Kroner) for example said that he's had hundreds of people write to him

00:28:20.54,00:28:25.74and he had a pre-written copy/paste response

00:28:25.76,00:28:28.20It would say "Dear XXX"

00:28:28.22,00:28:30.76and then the explanation

00:28:30.78,00:28:33.97Bill (Hay) said that he'd had quite a number of people because

00:28:33.99,00:28:39.02Bill was obviously quote mined saying "I think it must be from the divine being"

00:28:39.04,00:28:42.48So obviously these other people have been quote mined

00:28:42.5,00:28:46.14So my purpose really in talking to you was

00:28:46.16,00:28:49.84because you seem to have been the initial person that they contacted

00:28:49.86,00:28:56.00I was really kind of interested in the origins of this affair

00:28:56.02,00:28:58.39What they originally said it was for...

00:28:58.41,00:29:01.98How other people got involved, and so on

00:29:02.0,00:29:06.55

It's been really interesting having you explain that to me

00:29:06.57,00:29:11.62It's been really interesting hearing about your experience of when you flew out

00:29:11.64,00:29:15.63It seems that you've been flown out to various places

00:29:15.65,00:29:17.18and on quite a number of occasions as well


22/26

00:29:17.2,00:29:25.28Oh it was beautiful, it's the way to go! First class return flight from Denver to Islamabad

00:29:25.3,00:29:28.96I don't mind that a bit, it's a long flight!

00:29:28.98,00:29:33.58I think the only meeting that Bill Hay was at was the Islamabad meeting

00:29:33.6,00:29:35.18I don't think he was at any others?

00:29:35.2,00:29:39.05I think he said he...I don't really recall

00:29:39.07,00:29:44.03There was one I missed that was in Moscow or somewhere in Russia that I was notable to get to

00:29:44.05,00:29:47.68Oh? I've never heard of a Moscow one!

00:29:47.7,00:29:52.35There was one after and I had a conflict and just couldn't go to it

00:29:52.37,00:29:55.58but I'm pretty sure was somewhere in... maybe just in the Soviet Union

00:29:55.6,00:29:57.75it may have been in an Islamic part

00:29:57.77,00:30:01.68It don't remember where it was, it could have been in Kazakhstan

00:30:01.7,00:30:05.61

or Tashkent or something like that, but I didn't go to that00:30:05.63,00:30:11.25and I don't seem to have the correspondence about that in my folder

00:30:11.27,00:30:13.28and Bill (Hay) might have been there

00:30:13.30,00:30:16.74He didn't mention Moscow, I haven't heard of that

00:30:16.76,00:30:18.78he definitely mentioned Islamabad

00:30:18.8,00:30:21.53and mentioned long boat trips and things

00:30:21.55,00:30:23.27uh... I don't really recall

00:30:23.29,00:30:28.48I thought he went to Jedda as well but I'm probably mistaken


23/26

00:30:28.5,00:30:30.38He might have gone after me

00:30:30.4,00:30:38.11because at the time I went to Jedda they (Zindani) didn't have those contacts (Bill Hay etc.)

00:30:38.13,00:30:46.15Maybe I had made them but we didn't go at the same time if he went

00:30:46.17,00:30:49.38In a summary do you think that it would be fair to say that

00:30:49.40,00:30:54.33your opinion on this entire matter seems to have been misrepresented?

00:30:54.35,00:30:57.67Well, as you have presented to me

00:30:57.69,00:31:01.56it seems like in some cases I've been misrepresented

00:31:01.58,00:31:06.20Fortunately I have the text of what I read all those meetings

00:31:06.22,00:31:10.04and I didn't deviate from that text in my presentation

00:31:10.06,00:31:15.18and in the questions and answers I always said

00:31:15.20,00:31:22.32"We have to establish that there was no way for this knowledge to have been extent at that time"

00:31:22.34,00:31:28.98And do you in any way endorse the proposition that the Quran could only have

00:31:29.0,00:31:33.00come about through some supernatural origin?

00:31:33.02,00:31:35.07No, of course not!

00:31:35.09,00:31:41.33And finally just to cover myself legally

00:31:41.35,00:31:46.52Do you give me permission to make the contents of this video recording public?

00:31:46.54,00:31:50.48Yeah, I kind of would like to see it before you do it

00:31:50.50,00:31:52.63What I'll do is...

00:31:52.65,00:31:55.83It's going to be uploaded in its entirety unedited

00:31:55.85,00:32:01.70


24/26

So it's going to include people phoning you up to ask you about financial matters and things

00:32:01.72,00:32:06.71it will all be there because I literally want it to remain 100% uncut

00:32:06.73,00:32:12.28because the name of the channel on YouTube is "ThisIsTheTruthUncut"

00:32:12.30,00:32:16.29So I can't really edit out the phone call because then it will be cut

00:32:16.31,00:32:21.39So what I'll do is, I'll upload it and let you have a look at it first

00:32:21.41,00:32:24.28If you're not happy with it and you want me to get rid of it, that's fine

00:32:24.3,00:32:28.59and if you're happy with it then I'll make it public

00:32:28.61,00:32:32.70I mean, I enjoyed my contacts with everybody involved

00:32:32.72,00:32:40.96so I wasn't vehemently trying to contradict them

00:32:40.98,00:32:47.73but I was just saying that from my point of view we have to have conclusive evidence

00:32:47.75,00:32:50.68that there's no way for this to have been extent extent knowledge

00:32:50.7,00:32:57.93and we didn't change that, we had a lot of private conversations along these lines, we just kind of agreed to disagree

00:32:57.95,00:33:04.19I think in the New York Times piece which Dan Golden wrote

00:33:04.21,00:33:13.32Zindani is quoted as saying I was the one who wouldn't commit

00:33:13.34,00:33:15.20So that was accurate then!

00:33:15.22,00:33:16.05That was accurate!

00:33:16.07,00:33:21.50Yes definitely, I think the thing is though it wasn't entirely accurate because

00:33:21.52,00:33:24.96I haven't actually yet spoken to a scientist that did commit

00:33:24.98,00:33:26.96I've spoken to about five or six on the phone

00:33:26.98,00:33:30.98


25/26

you're only about the third video interview I've done so far

00:33:31.0,00:33:36.99and so far every single one of them said "That just wasn't my opinion at all"

00:33:37.01,00:33:40.98So it would seem that you weren't the only one that wouldn't commit

00:33:41.0,00:33:44.78Maybe what he meant was...

00:33:44.8,00:33:49.98"The others were much easier to make it look like they had committed"

00:33:50.0,00:33:51.98It may be they were more tactful? I don't know

00:33:52.0,00:33:56.90Yeah, they were a bit more polite I think, maybe (laughs)

00:33:56.92,00:34:00.67We had very frank conversations

00:34:00.69,00:34:05.38

because I don't mind discussing theology with theologians00:34:05.40,00:34:06.97I enjoy that!

00:34:06.99,00:34:11.90and so we had discussions about where I came from, and why I thought the way I thought

00:34:11.91,00:34:14.59and uh...

00:34:14.60,00:34:17.79

that was okay00:34:17.81,00:34:20.04I never felt I was being

00:34:20.06,00:34:24.15sort of argued with, or had my arm twisted or anything like that

00:34:24.17,00:34:26.01It doesn't sound like you were

00:34:26.03,00:34:34.26But as long as people realise that if someone uses you as an authority

00:34:34.28,00:34:39.28on the information in the Quran regarding geology

00:34:39.3,00:34:42.63and that you as this authority say

00:34:42.65,00:34:44.98"You've really really got to be impressed by this


26/26

00:34:45.0,00:34:51.98you should be quite convinced that this is beyond the ability of a 7th century human"

00:34:52.0,00:34:55.85they know that this isn't something that they should be listening to?

00:34:55.87,00:34:59.42I never implied that at any point

00:34:59.44,00:35:02.93That's brilliant, thank you very much!

00:35:02.95,00:35:04.22You're welcome!

00:35:04.24,00:35:09.14Pete - who hasn't got the name "Pete" in his real name anywhere - Palmer

00:35:09.16,00:35:10.98Pete Palmer, thank you very much for your time, thank you very much

00:35:11.0,00:35:14.68Oh you are welcome!

allison pete palmer

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