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1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY
2 __________________________________
3 ANDREW ZAKANYCH and JOAN ZAKANYCH Plaintiffs
4 -against- Index No. L-007567-09
5 THERMO FISHER SCIENTIFIC INC., f/k/a FISHER
6 SCIENTIFIC INTERNATIONAL INC., et al., Defendants
7 __________________________________
8 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
9 LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY __________________________________
10 RAYMOND FELDNER and BARBARA FELDNER, Husband
11 and Wife Plaintiffs
12 Docket No. vs. L-001052-10
13 AMERICAN PREMIER UNDERWRITERS, INC., et al.
14 Defendants __________________________________
15
16 COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY, PA
17 __________________________________
18 ROBERT BLACKBURN, JR. Plaintiff
19 Asbestos Case vs. Term, March 2010
20 No. 02699 ASBESTOS CORPORATION LIMITED, et al.,
21 Defendants
22 __________________________________
23 Videotaped Deposition Under
24 Oral Examination of JOHN REILLY
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Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
1 Transcript of the videotaped
2 deposition of JOHN REILLY, called for Oral
3 Examination in the above-captioned matter, said
4 deposition being taken pursuant to the Federal
5 Rules of Civil Procedure by and before Michele
6 Cannata-Smith, Court Reporter and Notary Public
7 in and for the State of New York; taken at
8 Hyatt Regency Hotel, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
9 on March 1, 2011, commencing at 10:08 a.m.
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1 I N D E X
2
3 JOHN REILLY PAGE
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5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY 9
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAMS 299
7 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY 340
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11 E X H I B I T S
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13 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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15 JOHN REILLY 1 A document - 9/7/71, 133
16 JOHN REILLY 2 Fisher Scientific Catalog 148
17 74
18 JOHN REILLY 3 Letter - 1/23/76 156
19 JOHN REILLY 4 Fisher Scientific Catalog 168
20 77
21 JOHN REILLY 5 A memo - 5/2/77 180
22 JOHN REILLY 6 A letter - 10/11/78 190
23 JOHN REILLY 7 A letter - 11/6/78 199
24 JOHN REILLY 8 A memo - 11/22/78 212
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1 E X H I B I T S (CONT.)
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3 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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5 JOHN REILLY 9 A memo - 11/28/78 221
6 JOHN REILLY 10 A memo - 12/4/78 232
7 JOHN REILLY 11 A memo - 12/5/78 241
8 JOHN REILLY 12 A letter - 12/11/78 251
9 JOHN REILLY 13 A letter - 12/18/78 272
10 JOHN REILLY 14 A memo - 4/9/79 278
11 JOHN REILLY 15 A memo - 4/26/79 284
12 JOHN REILLY 16 A memo - 6/28/79 287
13 JOHN REILLY 17 A document - printed 291
14 12/29/05
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16 DEFT. REILLY 1 A resume - John Reilly 300
17 DEFT. REILLY 2 A letter - 12/3/75 328
18 DEFT. REILLY 3 A letter - 3/23/79 335
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH
3 BY: GONEN HAKLAY, ESQ. Two Commerce Square
4 2001 Market Street, Suite 2900 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
5 Appearing for the Plaintiffs
6 HINKHOUSE WILLIAMS WALSH, LLP BY: JOHN T. WILLIAMS, ESQ.
7 180 North Stetson Avenue, Suite 3400 Chicago, Illinois 60601
8 Appearing for the Defendant Fisher Scientific
9 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, PC
10 BY: WILLIAM J. BRYERS, ESQ. 1650 Arch Street, 18th Floor
11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19130 Appearing for the Defendant
12 Duro-Dyne (Blackburn)
13 ECKERT SEAMANS CHERIN & MELLOTT, LLC
14 BY: WILLIAM B. PENTECOST, JR., ESQ. 600 Grant Street, 44th Floor
15 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 Appearing for the Defendant
16 CBS (Blackburn)
17 PIETRAGALLO GORDON ALFANO BOSICK & RASPANTI, LLP
18 BY: PHILIP P. KEATING, ESQ. One Oxford Centre, 38th Floor
19 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 Appearing for the Defendant
20 General Electric (Blackburn)
21 LAVIN, O'NEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO BY: CAROLYN L. MCCORMACK, ESQ.
22 Suite 500 190 North Independence Mall West
23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106 Appearing via phone for the Defendant
24 3M Company (Blackburn)
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1 PATTON BOGGS LLP AMY D. CRISCUOLO, ESQ.
2 One Riverfront Plaza, 6th Floor Newark, New Jersey 07102
3 Appearing via phone for the Defendant Pharmacia fka Monsanto Company
4 SPEZIALI, GREENWALD & HAWKINS
5 BY: DAVID SPEZIALI, ESQ. 1081 Winslow Road
6 Williamstown, New Jersey 08094 Appearing via phone for the Defendant
7 General Electric (Feldner)
8 MCELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP CHAD D. MOUNTAIN, ESQ.
9 1617 John F. Kennedy Blvd Suite 1500
10 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Appearing via phone for the Defendants
11 Chevron U.S.A., Inc., Valero Energy Corporation and Exxon Mobil Corporation
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13 HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS BY: SHAZIA CHAUDRI deWIT, Esq.
14 40 Paterson Street New Brunswick, New Jersey 08903
15 Appearing via phone as national and local counsel for Fisher
16 Scientific, Mettler-Toledo (Feldner)
17 DINSMORE & SHOHL, LLP BY: DAVID SINGLEY, ESQ.
18 One Oxford Centre, 28th Floor Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219
19 Appearing via phone for the Defendant Minteq, Inc., incorrectly identified as a
20 wholly-owned subsidiary of Minerals Technologies, Inc. (Feldner)
21 HOFHEIMER GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP
22 BY: GARY N. SMITH, ESQ. 530 Fifth Avenue
23 New York, New York 10036 Appearing via phone for the Defendant
24 Rapid American Corp. (Blackburn)
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1 KELLEY, JASONS, MCGOWAN, SPINELLI & HANNA, L.L.P. BY: LIZA STAGLIANO, ESQ.
2 Two Liberty Place, Suite 1900 50 South 16th Street
3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 Appearing via phone for the Defendants
4 BayerCrop Science, FMC, Ingersoll Rand and Bechtel (Blackburn)
5 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH
6 BY: JANET GOLUP, ESQ. 1880 JFK Boulevard, 20th Floor
7 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Appearing via phone for the Defendant
8 Asbestos Corporation Limited (Blackburn)
9
10 ALSO PRESENT: MATT BERTLES, VIDEOGRAPHER
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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My
2 name is Matt Bertles. I'm here on behalf of
3 Veritext Court Reporting Services. Today's date
4 is March 1, 2011. The time now is approximately
5 10:08 a.m. This deposition is being held at the
6 Hyatt, Pittsburgh, located at 1111 Airport
7 Boulevard, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
8 The caption of this case is Andrew and
9 Joan Zakanych versus Thermo Fisher Scientific,
10 et al; Raymond and Margaret Feldner versus
11 American Premier Underwriters, et al.; and
12 Robert Blackburn versus Asbestos Corporation
13 Limited, et al.
14 The name of the witness today is John
15 Reilly. At this time the attorneys will
16 identify themselves after which our court
17 reporter, Michele Smith, here on behalf of
18 Veritext Reporting, will swear in the witness
19 and we can proceed.
20 MR. HAKLAY: Gonen Haklay, attorney for
21 the Plaintiffs in all three of these cases from
22 Cohen, Placitella & Roth in Philadelphia.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: John Williams,
24 Hinkhouse, Williams, Walsh in Chicago for Fisher
25 Scientific.
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1 JOHN REILLY, after being duly called
2 and sworn, testified as follows:
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Gonen, let me just make
4 one statement for the record in terms of the
5 notice. Let me just object to the subpoena.
6 The subpoenas in the Zakanych and Feldner case
7 were not properly served and procedurally
8 defective. With respect to the Pennsylvania
9 case, the subpoena was defective in that there
10 was no witness fee provided to the witness,
11 among other things. And with respect to the
12 video, there was not a proper notice with
13 respect to videotaping the deposition pursuant
14 to Rule 4017.1(b).
15 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. Well, we'll proceed
16 and your objections are on the record.
17
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY:
19
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Reilly.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Let me introduce myself again. I know
23 we just met. My name is Gonen Haklay. I'm an
24 attorney with the law firm of Cohen, Placitella
25 & Roth.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. We represent the plaintiffs in three
3 different cases in which Fisher Scientific is
4 either the defendant or one of the defendants in
5 each of those cases.
6 The first is a case in which we
7 represent a couple named Andrew and Joan
8 Zakanych; the second is a case which we
9 represent Raymond and Barbara Feldner; and the
10 third is a case in which we represent a man who
11 is now deceased named Robert Blackburn, Junior.
12 Sir, have you ever had your deposition
13 taken before?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever appeared in any way in
16 any kind of court proceeding?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you ever given testimony in any
19 way that would be used in any kind of a legal
20 case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. Well, let me give you a
23 couple of ground rules, and if at any time you
24 want to find out more about them, you just stop
25 and ask, okay? Even if I'm in the middle of a
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1 question or I just asked one before you answer.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. First, it's our goal that you only
4 answer questions you understand, okay? So if I
5 ask you a question and you do not understand it,
6 tell me you do not understand it, tell me you do
7 not know what I mean by that, tell me that
8 you're confused about that, tell me anything you
9 want that would indicate to me I should ask it
10 in a different way or a better way, okay?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Second, we don't want any wild guesses.
13 If I, for instance, ask you how long the
14 conference table is in the room next door, I
15 don't want you to guess because you don't know.
16 If I ask you how long each of these tables is
17 that we're sitting at right now, you probably
18 don't have a tape measure -- I don't know, but
19 you probably don't -- but you may very well be
20 able to give an approximation. If you can give
21 us an approximation, let us know that's what it
22 is and give it, but do not guess.
23 If, for instance, I ask you when
24 something happened, and you only know it
25 happened in the 1960s, that's the best you can
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1 do, the late 1960s or early 1960s, tell us that
2 and let us know you're approximating. If you
3 know exactly when it happened, tell us exactly
4 when it happened.
5 Third, because we have a court reporter
6 who's writing everything down, there's a couple
7 of things we need to do that are not normal for
8 conversation outside of a deposition. First,
9 even though you may know before I finish my
10 question what I'm going to ask and where I'm
11 going with a question, you have to wait for me
12 to finish so that we're not talking over each
13 other. And conversely, even though I know what
14 you're saying, I've got to wait to ask my next
15 question. So if we stop you and say, wait until
16 I finish my question, I'm not trying to be rude,
17 I'm just trying to create a good record.
18 Second, because everything is being
19 written down, people say uh-uh or uh-hum a lot.
20 We can't do that. You have to say yes or no if
21 that's the answer you intend to give. Just
22 because uh-uh and uh-hum look a lot like each
23 other when they're written down.
24 And, third, lawyers in the room may
25 enter objections to certain questions. It does
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1 not mean they're instructing you not to answer,
2 but they're creating a record that they feel
3 they need to create. If you hear a lawyer
4 entering an objection, you need to wait until
5 they're finished and then you can answer the
6 question unless instructed otherwise. Okay?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Do you have any questions?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Are you represented by a lawyer
11 here today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And who is that?
14 A. Mr. John Williams.
15 Q. Okay. Sitting to your right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams?
18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm representing
19 Mr. Reilly at this deposition, yes.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to the
23 form. To the extent the witness understands the
24 legal questions and legal implication. I'm
25 stating for the record that I have been retained
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1 to represent Mr. Reilly at this deposition.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Is that true, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And how long has Mr. Williams
6 represented you?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But
8 you can answer if you understand.
9 THE WITNESS: We met yesterday.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Okay. And is that when he started
12 representing you?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
14 That calls for a legal conclusion. But you can
15 answer if you know.
16 THE WITNESS: I knew he represented me
17 several weeks ago via telephone conversations.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. Who were those conversations
20 with? Don't tell me what was in them, tell me
21 who they were with.
22 A. With Mr. Williams and others.
23 Q. Who's the others? Who are the others?
24 A. Probably some employees of Fisher
25 Scientific -- Thermo Fisher.
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1 Q. Current employees?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who did you speak with that's a current
4 employee of Fisher Scientific?
5 A. Kathy Hartman and Edie Nataro.
6 Q. You don't have any idea how to spell
7 Nataro, do you?
8 A. I think it's N-A-T-A-R-O, I believe.
9 Q. Have you spoken with -- are either of
10 those people attorneys?
11 A. I believe Kathy Hartman is an attorney.
12 Q. For Fisher Scientific?
13 A. Thermo Fisher, yes, I believe.
14 Q. So there's no confusion, is Thermo
15 Fisher part of the current name of that company?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
17 Calls for speculation. You can answer if you
18 know.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe Thermo Fisher
20 is the proper name of that company now. That's
21 my belief.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. Okay. If I say "Fisher Scientific",
24 will it be clear that whether I say "Fisher
25 Scientific" or "Thermo Scientific", I'm
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1 referring to the company that you used to work
2 for that has continued in some corporate form
3 until today, all right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what about Edie Nataro, is she an
6 attorney?
7 A. I believe she's a paralegal.
8 Q. Does she work for Miss Ardman?
9 A. I don't know.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Hartman.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Kathy Hartman. Have you spoken to
13 anyone else at Fisher Scientific?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Who else have you spoken to other than
16 Mr. Williams, Miss Hartman and Miss Nataro?
17 A. My wife.
18 Q. Okay. Was she a former Fisher
19 Scientific employee?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Have you spoken to a Marc
22 Gaffrey?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Has anyone raised the issue of a
25 potential conflict of interest to you?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Williams in
5 addition to representing you here today --
6 actually let me back off.
7 Are you currently an employee of
8 Fisher?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When did you stop being an employee of
11 Thermo Fisher?
12 A. 1989.
13 Q. In addition to representing you today,
14 are you aware that Mr. Williams also represents
15 the company Thermo Fisher?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
17 It's leading and calls for speculation. You can
18 answer if you know.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe he is.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Okay. Can you tell us the highest
22 level of education you completed?
23 A. I have a Bachelor of Science degree
24 from Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh,
25 Pennsylvania.
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1 Q. Okay. And what year did you get that?
2 A. 1961.
3 Q. And what was your major?
4 A. Business administration.
5 Q. Did you have any minors that involved
6 scientific matters at all?
7 A. I may have had some basic chemistry.
8 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself a
9 scientist?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever had an employment in
12 which the core of that employment was as a
13 scientist?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
15 It's vague. You can answer if you understand.
16 THE WITNESS: No. I was never employed
17 as a scientist.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. When did you start working at
20 Fisher Scientific?
21 A. February of 1972.
22 Q. What did you do between 1961 and 1972?
23 A. Well, I had other jobs before Fisher.
24 Q. Right. What did you do? Who did you
25 work for after college?
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1 A. After college -- let me think for a
2 minute. After college for a few years I was a
3 salesman.
4 Q. Do you remember what company you were a
5 salesman for?
6 A. Yes. US Rubber Company and Hunt
7 Wesson.
8 Q. And what did you sell?
9 A. Hunt & Wesson was tomato products and
10 US Rubber Company is tires, golf balls,
11 mattresses, rubber products.
12 Q. To your knowledge did the products you
13 sold at either of those companies contain any
14 asbestos?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
16 Calls for speculation. But you can answer.
17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know
18 anything about that.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Are those the two companies that you
21 worked for until 1972 or was there other
22 employment?
23 A. Other employment. I went to work in
24 the safety profession at Crum & Forster
25 Insurance Companies.
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1 Q. Where are they?
2 A. Well, I worked in Pittsburgh. I don't
3 know where they're headquartered.
4 Q. What was your job at Crum & Forster?
5 A. Safety engineer.
6 Q. And what did that entail?
7 A. Performing safety inspections at
8 potential clients to see if they were a good
9 risk or a bad risk.
10 Q. A good risk or bad risk for --
11 A. Insurance.
12 Q. Okay. And what kind of training did
13 you have to perform with a safety -- were they
14 safety tests?
15 A. On-the-job training.
16 Q. And what kind of test did you perform
17 at these companies that wanted to be clients of
18 Crum & Forster Insurance?
19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean
20 by "test".
21 Q. What did you do when you would visit
22 these potential clients?
23 A. I physically went there and made an
24 inspection, a safety inspection.
25 Q. What kind of issues were you looking
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1 for when you made safety inspections?
2 A. Many, many issues that all related to
3 safety. Many. Numerous.
4 Q. Did those issues ever relate to dust?
5 A. No.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 It's vague.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Did they relate to physical features
10 such as handrails or equipment and things like
11 that?
12 A. Sure.
13 Q. When you say you got on-the-job
14 training, who trained you?
15 A. My boss who was a safety engineer.
16 Q. Do you remember his name?
17 A. Yes, I do. Walter Betzler.
18 Q. And how long were you trained on the
19 job before you were permitted to go out by
20 yourself to any potential clients when you
21 worked for Crum & Forster Insurance?
22 A. I'm not sure.
23 Q. How many years did you work for them?
24 A. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Two
25 years probably.
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1 Q. Okay. And do you remember about what
2 year you started working there?
3 A. I believe it was 1969.
4 Q. Was that the last job you had before
5 you went to work for Fisher?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Then let's stay on this one
8 first. On-the-job training, was there any
9 component of that that included reading
10 materials?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. What kind?
13 A. Safety materials.
14 Q. Safety materials of these potential
15 clients or safety materials generally?
16 A. Both.
17 Q. Did you -- did Crum & Forster ask you
18 to take any classes in safety when you got
19 there?
20 A. I can't recall, but I don't believe so.
21 Q. Was this your first experience as -- in
22 the safety profession?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you ever taken any classes in
25 safety engineering or safety generally?
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1 A. Through the years, you mean?
2 Q. Sure. Ever.
3 A. Numerous.
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever take any before you
5 got to Fisher?
6 A. I'm not quite sure.
7 Q. Okay. When you were at -- when you
8 would visit someone, a potential client of Crum
9 & Forster, how long would you spend at any
10 potential client?
11 A. It depend on the size and the
12 complexity and the processes of the client.
13 Q. Could it be more than a day?
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. Could it be as little as an hour?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ultimately get to make the
18 decision at Crum & Forster as to whether Crum &
19 Forster would accept --
20 A. I made the recommendation.
21 Q. You just have to let me finish the
22 question.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: You have to let him
24 finish the question.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. It's perfectly natural what you're
3 doing. You knew what I was going to say.
4 Did you ultimately make the call as to
5 whether the client, the potential client that
6 you visited, would become a Crum & Forster
7 client?
8 A. I made the recommendation to
9 underwriters.
10 Q. And they decided?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You said that you worked somewhere else
13 after Crum & Forster but before Fisher
14 Scientific. Where was that?
15 A. Koppers Company.
16 Q. Is that with a K?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What's the Koppers Company do?
19 A. I don't know what it does now.
20 Q. What did it do then?
21 A. When I worked there they -- chemical
22 plants, tar plants, coke oven batteries and
23 various other industrial plants.
24 Q. And what was your title there?
25 A. Division safety engineer.
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1 Q. What division?
2 A. Organic materials.
3 Q. What did that mean -- what did organic
4 materials mean at Koppers Company?
5 A. Tar companies.
6 Q. Anything else?
7 A. Coke oven batteries. Anything
8 pertaining to chemicals.
9 Q. And what did you actually do on a
10 day-to-day basis at Koppers Company?
11 A. I inspected their plants to make sure
12 that they were in safe and good condition and
13 did everything in my power to prevent
14 occupational injuries and illnesses to Kopper
15 employees.
16 Q. How many divisions were there?
17 A. I don't recall. It was a big company.
18 Q. More than one then?
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Did you have a boss there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Was there a head safety engineer
23 at Koppers Company at the time?
24 A. There were a couple.
25 Q. Did you report to one of those two?
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1 A. No. I reported to the same person that
2 they reported to.
3 Q. You reported to somebody above the
4 safety engineers?
5 A. The department head, yes.
6 Q. What department was he head of?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. Okay. Do you remember his name?
9 A. No.
10 Q. That's fine. When you inspected
11 plants, what were you looking for?
12 A. Well, again, that depended on the
13 complexity and the type of plant. Some things
14 are basic, like handrails, fire extinguishers,
15 first aid supplies, eyewash fountains, deluge
16 showers, training, accident investigation
17 training, first aid training, housekeeping.
18 Anything that pertained to safety.
19 Q. Did Koppers Company provide you with
20 any specialized training for the job?
21 A. I believe when I was at Koppers Company
22 I graduated I believe -- I'm a little bit
23 confused on dates. OSHA came in to being in
24 April of 1971, so when I was at Koppers Company
25 I went to an OSHA training academy.
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1 Q. How long was that?
2 A. The course?
3 Q. Yes, sir.
4 A. Probably two weeks.
5 Q. And what subjects did you study?
6 A. OSHA compliance, OSHA standards.
7 Q. In what area?
8 A. In every area that OSHA had a standard
9 for.
10 Q. Other than being sent to an OSHA
11 training academy, did Koppers Company provide
12 you with any other education and safety?
13 A. I probably went to a number of courses
14 that were conducted by the Western Pennsylvania
15 Safety Council.
16 Q. You say "probably". What do you mean?
17 A. Well, I'm not sure. It's a long time
18 ago.
19 Q. Are you saying you're not sure you ever
20 went or you're not sure who you worked for when
21 you went?
22 A. No, I went. So I'm not sure maybe who
23 I worked for when I went.
24 Q. So it might have been Koppers and it
25 might have been a different employer?
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1 A. It might have been Kopper and Fisher
2 both.
3 Q. And what did you study there at the
4 Western Pennsylvania Safety Council?
5 A. Well, it depended again. Accident
6 investigation, safety inspections, chemical
7 safety. Numerous.
8 Q. Did --
9 A. OSHA standards.
10 Q. Before OSHA came into being, when you
11 worked at Koppers Company against what standard
12 did you measure the conditions you would see at
13 a Koppers Company plant?
14 A. Before OSHA came into being --
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
16 assumes facts. But over my objection, you can
17 answer if you understand.
18 THE WITNESS: OSHA didn't make up
19 standards. OSHA became law and gathered
20 existing standards and made them law. So I went
21 by the existing standards.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. The existing standards for what topics?
24 A. All topics in safety.
25 Q. Okay. What connection did you have
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1 with asbestos in safety while at Koppers
2 Company?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
4 THE WITNESS: None.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. That was not an issue at Koppers
7 Company? You have to answer out loud.
8 A. No.
9 Q. That's the only thing -- I'm sorry, in
10 addition to uh-uh and uh-hum, while we are
11 videotaping you are going like this, you have to
12 answer out loud so she can write it down.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had
15 you ever in any of your previous employment had
16 to deal with any asbestos-related issues?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had
19 any of your employers ever provided you with any
20 training in any subjects related to asbestos?
21 A. I'm not sure. I don't think they did
22 because that wasn't an issue.
23 Q. What do you mean "that wasn't an
24 issue"?
25 A. In the company I worked for, it was not
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1 an issue.
2 Q. Prior to -- excuse me, during your
3 undergraduate education at Duquesne, did you
4 take any classes that in any way related to
5 asbestos specifically?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you take any classes that related
8 in any way to toxic dusts?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
10 It's vague. If you understand you can answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I
12 understand that question by what you mean "toxic
13 dust". Dust could be toxic to anybody if it
14 makes them sneeze.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Okay. Did you take any courses that
17 dealt with dust that made people sneeze while at
18 Duquesne?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt
21 with dust in any way at Duquesne?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt
24 with any toxic materials at Duquesne, dust or
25 otherwise?
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1 A. I believe I answered before that I took
2 basic chemistry at Duquesne.
3 Q. Is there anything about that course all
4 these years later that you remember more than
5 beyond generally?
6 A. No.
7 Q. That course, was that something you
8 used when you were at Koppers Company what you
9 learned in that chemistry class?
10 A. Generally.
11 Q. Did Koppers Company send you to any
12 classes to train you before they let you inspect
13 their plants?
14 A. It's hard to be specific about Koppers.
15 In the course of my safety career, I constantly
16 went to safety classes. Constantly.
17 Q. I think I'm asking something more
18 specific but apparently not well enough. You
19 testified that at the job you had before
20 Koppers, at Crum & Forster, your training was on
21 the job, correct?
22 A. Basically, yes.
23 Q. As opposed to a classroom-type
24 component, correct?
25 A. Basically, yes.
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1 Q. When you got to Koppers, when you first
2 got there, was your training on the job from
3 somebody senior to you or was there a classroom
4 component before they would let you inspect
5 their plants?
6 A. Both. I believe -- I believe I
7 answered before I went to OSHA training academy
8 while at Koppers.
9 Q. And did that OSHA training have
10 anything to do with asbestos?
11 A. No.
12 Q. When you said before that it dealt with
13 all OSHA standards, did you mean all OSHA
14 standards that were relevant to Kopper Company
15 plants?
16 A. No. I meant all OSHA standards that
17 were law.
18 Q. Okay. So whenever you did this
19 training was before OSHA issued standards on
20 asbestos?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
22 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Before you got to Fisher did you ever
25 get any training at all in asbestos?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Before you -- I asked you what
3 standards you tested against before OSHA
4 standards existed. Were the standards you
5 tested against that you told me were later
6 compiled into OSHA standards, were those written
7 down before the OSHA standards?
8 A. Oh, absolutely.
9 Q. And where were they written down?
10 A. In books, in book form. One of them is
11 the National Fire Protection Association
12 published standards.
13 Q. Were those private or governmental
14 standards; do you know?
15 A. Private.
16 Q. Were all the standards against which
17 you did your job before OSHA standards came into
18 being, were those all private standards?
19 A. Basically, yes.
20 Q. Did you receive any classroom-type
21 training on those standards before you had to
22 apply them at Koppers and Company?
23 A. Again, I went to numerous, numerous,
24 numerous classes during my career. And, you
25 know, I just don't remember exact dates.
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1 Q. As you sit here, can you remember
2 whether or not you attended such classroom-type
3 training while still at Koppers and Company?
4 A. I think I did.
5 Q. You've stated that at Koppers and
6 Company none of the training was in asbestos.
7 Was there -- did you undergo any training in
8 dusts while at Koppers and Company?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
10 It's vague. You can answer if you understand.
11 THE WITNESS: Specifically dust, no.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. Did you receive training in accident
14 investigation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. From whom?
17 A. Numerous agencies. Allegany County
18 Bomb Threat, Pittsburgh Fire Department, Western
19 Pennsylvania Safety Council.
20 Q. When you were at Koppers did you
21 receive any certifications?
22 A. I don't know if you call them
23 certifications. I certainly received diplomas
24 from completing the courses.
25 Q. Were you a certified safety inspector?
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1 A. CSP, no.
2 Q. Have you ever been a certified safety
3 inspector?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you ever attempted to take
6 whatever course work or testing as required to
7 become a certified safety inspector?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I take it that none of your employers
10 ever required you to do so, correct?
11 A. No, they did not.
12 Q. When you were at Koppers were all the
13 plants you were in charge of inspecting, were
14 they all in the Greater Pittsburgh area?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How far afield did you get to travel?
17 A. Well, I went to Minneapolis/St. Paul to
18 coke oven batteries. I went to Youngstown, Ohio
19 to a tar plant.
20 Q. Wherever your division had plants you
21 went?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how long would you spend at these
24 plants doing your inspections?
25 A. Depending on the size and the
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1 complexity of the plant.
2 Q. At the bigger plants.
3 A. Three, four days.
4 Q. Okay. Did each of those plants have
5 safety personnel of their own?
6 A. They had -- each of those plants had
7 people responsible for safety, yes.
8 Q. Someone whose job title included
9 safety?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are those the people you corresponded
12 with and met with when you went there?
13 A. I corresponded and met with many people
14 when I went there. Department heads, those
15 people.
16 Q. Was there someone from each of these
17 plants --
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Did you finish your
19 answer?
20 MR. HAKLAY: I thought he had. Had you
21 finished, sir?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: No.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Continue, please.
25 A. Let's say that the tar plant had a
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1 consulting physician who -- I might meet with
2 him or her. So I met with numerous people. I
3 might meet with the local fire department. I
4 might meet depending on -- with the local bomb
5 threat people. If it was a plant where we
6 received a bomb threat, I'd talk to bomb threat
7 authorities. So I met with numerous people.
8 Q. Was there a person at each of these
9 plants who was the person responsible for
10 keeping in contact with you when you were not at
11 the plants?
12 A. Sure.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to
14 object. It's vague and compound. But if you
15 understand what's being asked you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: If someone at the plant
17 had safety duties, yes, they stayed in touch
18 with me.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did any of the
21 plants that you oversaw safety at, were there
22 any certified safety inspectors?
23 A. To my knowledge, no.
24 Q. I probably said that wrong. Were there
25 any certified safety professionals?
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1 A. To my knowledge, no.
2 Q. Above you hierarchically at Koppers
3 Company, were there any certified safety
4 professionals?
5 A. To my knowledge, no.
6 Q. Was Koppers Company the last job you
7 had before you went to Fisher Scientific?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when you went to Fisher Scientific,
10 what year was it?
11 A. February of 1972.
12 Q. And where was -- where physically was
13 your work site?
14 A. Headquarters, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
15 Q. When you were hired at Fisher
16 Scientific, what was your job title at first?
17 A. Corporate safety director.
18 Q. To whom did you report?
19 A. Executive vice president of human
20 resources.
21 Q. Was that person in the -- the executive
22 vice president of human resources, was that
23 person someone whose duties included safety?
24 A. Yes. In those days most safety
25 professionals reported to human resources.
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1 Q. Was -- who was the executive vice
2 president when you first started?
3 A. Gordon Robinson Scott.
4 Q. That's a long name. Did Mr. Scott --
5 was Mr. Scott a certified safety professional?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you report to anybody else above
8 you other than Mr. Scott?
9 A. He was my direct report.
10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge was anybody
11 above Mr. Scott a certified safety professional?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you have people under you to -- who
14 reported to you when you first got to Fisher?
15 A. No. Well, if -- let me rephrase that.
16 No.
17 Q. Go ahead, sir.
18 A. If a person at one of Fisher's plants
19 also had safety responsibility, he or she
20 indirectly reported to me as it pertained to
21 safety, so they had both a direct report and an
22 indirect report.
23 Q. Now, you said that you stayed at Fisher
24 until I think you said 1989 or 1988.
25 A. 1989.
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1 Q. Did you retire at that point?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where did you go after that?
4 A. I became in charge of safety and
5 numerous other disciplines at the Port Authority
6 of Allegany County.
7 Q. And how long did you work there?
8 A. Seven years.
9 Q. Until about 1996?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you retire at that point or did
12 you take another job?
13 A. Well, I retired from Fisher, I retired
14 from the Port Authority, but I also took another
15 job.
16 Q. What other job did you take after your
17 second retirement?
18 A. I became a safety consultant.
19 Q. Did you work for somebody else or did
20 you have your own company?
21 A. I worked for somebody else, a small
22 consulting firm.
23 Q. What was it called?
24 A. Three Rivers Area Labor Management
25 Committee.
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1 Q. That rolls right off the tongue, sir.
2 And what did you do in that role?
3 A. What I did with all the other
4 companies, only I did it with clients.
5 Q. And how long did you stay at the Three
6 Rivers Area Labor Management Committee?
7 A. I'm not sure. I'm going to say two
8 years.
9 Q. Until approximately 1998 or so?
10 A. Approximately. I'm not quite sure.
11 Q. At that point did you retire for a
12 third time?
13 A. No retirement. I just left there. No
14 retirement.
15 Q. Did you continue working?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did you do?
18 A. I became the in-house safety consultant
19 for the Western Pennsylvania Safety Council.
20 Q. Now, you mentioned them a little
21 earlier, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That's another one answering out loud
24 things. And, I'm sorry, because I was writing,
25 in-house safety professional did you say or --
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1 what did you say?
2 A. A consultant.
3 Q. Okay. Did you work for the Western
4 Pennsylvania Safety Council?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how long did you do that?
7 A. Until they went bankrupt.
8 Q. In what year was that approximately?
9 A. I'm going to say I worked there two,
10 three years, and they went bankrupt.
11 Q. 2000, 2001, something like that?
12 A. Something like that.
13 Q. Did you take another job after that?
14 A. Sort of did a little work on my own,
15 yes.
16 Q. Okay. Shockingly, I don't know what
17 that means. What does that mean?
18 A. People knew me and knew of me and they
19 would call me and ask me to perform some safety
20 duties for them and I would do that.
21 Q. When you say "safety duties", is that
22 different from consulting?
23 A. Well, it depends. They might say, we
24 need a building evacuation procedure, and I'd
25 write them one.
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1 Q. Did you become employees of these
2 entities or were you just --
3 A. No.
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. -- or were you just employed to do a
7 specific task for them?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
9 Calls for a legal conclusion. But you can
10 answer if you know.
11 THE WITNESS: I did consulting work for
12 people that sought me out.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Did you form your own company or did
15 you just --
16 A. No. I just did it.
17 Q. Okay. Are these people you all knew
18 from your previous work?
19 A. Mostly, yes. Or people that heard
20 about my experience.
21 Q. Okay. And are you still doing that
22 kind of private consulting work on your own?
23 A. No, I'm not.
24 Q. When did you stop doing it?
25 A. I'm not sure of dates.
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1 Q. Was it this year, last year?
2 A. Oh, no. It was a few years ago.
3 Q. And when you stopped doing that a few
4 years ago, did you retire for the last time?
5 A. Yes and no. Yes, I did.
6 Q. But no --
7 A. But every once in a great while one of
8 these customers would call me up and ask me to
9 do something for them, and being the type of
10 person I am, I did it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Sometimes for a fee, sometimes gratis.
13 Q. Okay. Back before you stopped doing it
14 full time, were you doing it for a fee?
15 A. When I was a consultant, the consulting
16 firm got the fee.
17 Q. After you went out on your own but
18 before you just do it occasionally like now --
19 A. When I went out on my own, I got the
20 fee.
21 Q. You charged a fee, though?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. So on February 1972 -- strike
24 that. Pretend I didn't say that.
25 In February of 1972 when you were hired
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1 by Fisher Scientific, how many production plants
2 did Fisher Scientific have?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. You
4 can answer if you know.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly. I
6 can approximate.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Approximately how many?
9 A. Probably 26 warehouses in the United
10 States, maybe five manufacturing plants in the
11 United States, one warehouse in San Juan, Puerto
12 Rico, maybe approximately six or seven locations
13 in Canada.
14 Q. Were things being made, built, produced
15 in Canada or were they just warehouses where
16 products were stored?
17 A. In Canada probably where products were
18 stored.
19 Q. The five manufacturing plants, were you
20 in charge of safety at all of them?
21 A. I was in charge of safety in the entire
22 corporation.
23 Q. So everything you just listed, be it a
24 warehouse or a manufacturing plant, you were the
25 person that people went to at those plants or
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1 warehouses with issues of safety, correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Did you have any assistants?
4 A. In later years I had a full-time
5 assistant at Fisher.
6 Q. When did that start?
7 A. 1981, when we were purchased by Allied
8 Signal Corporation.
9 Q. Did your office remain in the same
10 place?
11 A. My office?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that it, you only had one assistant
15 over all those years?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was -- what was that person's name?
18 A. Mike Horvath.
19 Q. Was Mr. Horvath a certified safety
20 professional?
21 A. He was a safety professional. I don't
22 know whether he was certified.
23 May I say something about
24 certification?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Sure.
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1 MR. HAKLAY: Sure. Tell me what you
2 want to say about certification.
3 THE WITNESS: Certification was nothing
4 more than an agency who wanted to make money.
5 So to test you and charge you and certify you,
6 most older safety professionals like myself did
7 not think it was necessary and didn't go through
8 the trouble to get a CSP after their name.
9 In fact, one time I wrote the State of
10 Pennsylvania and said these certified safety
11 professionals report to me. I have this
12 experience.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. What certified safety professionals
15 reported to you?
16 A. At Port Authority, the doctor.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. He was considered a CSP by the State of
19 Pennsylvania because he had an MD degree.
20 Q. That automatically qualified you with a
21 CSP without testing?
22 A. What qualified me accepted by the state
23 of Pennsylvania was my experience.
24 Q. I'm sorry, I misstated my question.
25 The medical doctor automatically was a
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1 CSP because of his training as a doctor?
2 A. I don't know if he was automatically a
3 CSP, but he was automatically accepted to teach
4 certain courses because he was a doctor.
5 Q. What areas did the certification for
6 safety professionals organization test people on
7 before issuing -- taking money and issuing
8 certification?
9 A. I don't know. We didn't believe
10 that -- we safety professionals didn't believe
11 we were engineers.
12 Q. Who's "we"?
13 A. All of us.
14 Q. Who's that?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let him finish his
16 answer. You can go ahead and finish your
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: I probably knew hundreds
19 of safety professionals. So all of them.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. You didn't know any one certified
22 safety professional?
23 A. Yes. I knew certified safety
24 professionals and I knew people like me that
25 learned through experience.
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1 Q. Did you know any certified safety
2 professionals who were required to gain
3 certification for their jobs?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 Calls for speculation. But if you know you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. So you don't know whether the certified
10 safety professionals you knew just decided to do
11 it on their own or whether their job required
12 it; is that correct?
13 A. Some of them I did know decided to do
14 it on their own because they wanted a CSP after
15 their name.
16 Q. During your 17 years or so at Fisher
17 did your job title ever change from corporate
18 safety director?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When?
21 A. I'm not sure of the year. Beginning in
22 19 -- well, beginning in 1986 when Allied Signal
23 sold Fisher, we went through a metamorphosis so
24 to speak where investors purchased us and then
25 dumped us and then someone else purchased us, so
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1 then I became in charge of safety for two other
2 companies. So my title changed to manager of
3 Fisher Scientific -- manager of safety, Fisher
4 Scientific Group.
5 Q. Okay. Between 1972 and 1986 did your
6 title change?
7 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
8 Q. Between 1986 and 1989, when you retired
9 for the first time, did your title change from
10 manager of safety, Fisher Scientific Group?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object to the
13 form. It misstates facts. But go ahead and
14 answer if you understand.
15 THE WITNESS: There were a few months
16 or a -- again, I don't know dates -- that I -- I
17 interviewed my replacement. So, yes, there was
18 a few months at Fisher where I just concentrated
19 on safety products, promoting safety products,
20 so it was more or less a marketing-type job.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Did your title officially change or did
23 you just take on different responsibilities
24 because you were hiring and training your
25 replacement?
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1 A. Both.
2 Q. It wasn't a demotion of any kind,
3 though?
4 A. Oh, absolutely not.
5 Q. When you became manager of safety,
6 Fisher Scientific Group, did your
7 responsibilities change other than the fact that
8 the number of entities you were responsible for
9 increased?
10 A. No. That was about it.
11 Q. Okay. So your title changed but your
12 job remained the same except --
13 A. Basically except --
14 Q. Harder?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let him finish his
17 answer before you ask another question.
18 Are you done with your answer?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. When you started at Fisher Scientific
22 in 1972, did the company have an industrial
23 hygienist on staff?
24 A. No. To my knowledge, no.
25 Q. During your 17 years at Fisher
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1 Scientific did the company ever have an
2 industrial hygienist on staff?
3 A. I don't believe so.
4 Q. When you started --
5 A. There might have been someone who had
6 industrial hygiene experience at our chemical
7 plant in Fair Lawn, New Jersey, I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. So when you say there might have
9 been, do you have any knowledge that there was?
10 A. No. There might have been.
11 Q. When you started at Fisher Scientific
12 in 1972, did Fisher Scientific employ a medical
13 doctor?
14 A. As an employee?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Did Fisher Scientific have a medical
18 department in 1972?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did Fisher Scientific have a medical
21 department in 1989 when you left?
22 A. Yes and no. I hired a doctor to be our
23 medical consultant.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. Again, I don't know dates. Towards the
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1 end of my career at Fisher.
2 Q. Was that person an employee of Fisher
3 Scientific?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you started at Fisher Scientific
6 in 1972, you mentioned five -- approximately
7 five manufacturing plants. What did Fisher
8 Scientific manufacture at those plants?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
10 It's compound. Vague. But if you understand
11 you can answer.
12 THE WITNESS: In one they manufactured
13 laboratory furniture.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
16 A. Was the basic product.
17 Q. Where was that?
18 A. Indiana, Pennsylvania.
19 Q. Go ahead, please.
20 A. Fair Lawn, New Jersey manufactured
21 laboratory chemicals. EMD in Chicago
22 manufactured educational materials division
23 products.
24 Q. What kind of material -- what did they
25 produce there?
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1 A. Maybe a skeleton the kids could study
2 in school.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Then at one time we bought a frog farm
5 so they collected frogs and did sell them to
6 labs for dissection.
7 Q. Okay. Where else did you have --
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his
9 answer, Counsel.
10 MR. HAKLAY: He was finished.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: He wasn't finished.
12 THE WITNESS: We bought a company
13 called Pfeiffer Glass in Rochester, New York and
14 they manufactured glass pipettes.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. For lab work?
17 A. Yes. So basically that was the
18 manufacturing locations. And then later on we
19 started a manufacturing plant in Mountain Home,
20 Arkansas. So, again, we had five or six or four
21 or five manufacturing plants and they all had to
22 do with laboratory products.
23 Q. What did you make in Mountain Home,
24 Arkansas?
25 A. Some of the products that we also made
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1 in Indiana, fume hoods and laboratory furniture,
2 tables, desk, file cabinets.
3 Q. Just for my education, is a fume hood
4 considered laboratory furniture?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. Okay. When you first got to Fisher
7 Scientific, did they require you to attend any
8 classroom-type training in any subject?
9 A. If I went to Fisher Scientific when I
10 was there and said there's a class coming up, I
11 would like to attend it, they'd say go. So
12 again, I attended educational classes in safety
13 for most of my career and then I ended up
14 teaching them.
15 Q. When you first went to Fisher
16 Scientific, did they require you to attend any
17 particular safety education classes in order for
18 you to get the job?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When you first started at Fisher
21 Scientific in 1972, was Fisher Scientific
22 putting out catalogs of products to potential
23 companies or consumers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did it do so during the entire 17 or so
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1 years that you worked for them?
2 A. I believe so, yes.
3 Q. What role, if any, did you have with
4 regards to the catalogs?
5 A. I'd make sure we were using the proper
6 language.
7 Q. What does that mean?
8 A. Well, if Fisher wanted to say, "Our
9 fire extinguisher is OSHA approved," and I'd say
10 "No, it isn't. OSHA doesn't approve products."
11 Q. Did you do that in 1972?
12 A. I don't recall. Probably.
13 Q. When you just said that about fire
14 extinguishers, were you making up an example to
15 give me an example or did that ever actually
16 happen?
17 A. I don't know if it was fire
18 extinguishers, but it actually happened where
19 marketing-type, advertising-type people said
20 OSHA approved, yes.
21 Q. Were you -- for the first nine years
22 until Mike Horvath came to work for you, were
23 you the entire safety department?
24 A. We had people at each location that had
25 safety responsibilities who indirectly reported
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1 to me on matters of safety.
2 Q. In the corporate offices were you the
3 entire safety department?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were there ever any industrial
6 hygienists employed at the manufacturing plants
7 by those plants?
8 A. I don't believe so.
9 Q. Okay. Did those plants, manufacturing
10 plants, ever employ medical doctors?
11 A. When needed -- as an employee, no. But
12 when needed, yes. We sold to hospitals all
13 across the world so we were constantly
14 consulting with medical doctors if necessary.
15 Q. For purposes of marketing and sales?
16 A. For purposes of employee safety and
17 health, for purposes of laboratory products, for
18 medical purposes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. If --
21 Q. When -- go ahead.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Go ahead. You can
23 finish your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: If you were an employee,
25 a valuable employee, and you come down with a
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1 mysterious illness, the morality of Fisher
2 Scientific Company, they would get you in touch
3 with the appropriate-type doctor. So we
4 constantly interfaced with medical personnel.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. When you say "employee safety and
7 health", are you talking about Fisher Scientific
8 employees?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. I'm
10 not -- I think it assumes facts. If you
11 understand what's being asked, you can answer,
12 or ask for it to be rephrased if you don't.
13 THE WITNESS: When I first started with
14 Fisher Scientific, I was concerned and they were
15 concerned with Fisher employees. It evolved
16 into laboratory customer, employees also, so
17 both.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. You said that on occasion or at
20 times Fisher hired doctors or consulted with
21 them or -- not as employees but used medical
22 doctors for what you said was employee safety
23 and health. The use of those doctors, was that
24 for the safety and health of Fisher Scientific
25 employees or is it not limited just to that?
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1 A. Not limited just to that. We used
2 doctors when we needed medical advice,
3 consultation and service.
4 Q. Other than employee safety and health,
5 who outside of Fisher Scientific employees did
6 you use medical doctors for?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
8 It's been asked and answered. But you can
9 answer it again.
10 THE WITNESS: If a valuable customer
11 said to me, we need an answer in pathology --
12 I'm using this as an example -- I'd refer him to
13 a pathologist.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Did you --
16 A. I spent my career at Fisher interfacing
17 with medical people.
18 Q. I'm trying to figure out whether Fisher
19 actually employed the pathologist --
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Let me finish the sentence, please.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him get his question
23 out as well.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. I know you know where I'm going. But
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1 that way she can write it down.
2 A. Excuse me.
3 Q. Did Fisher Scientific actually employ
4 someone like a pathologist or were you just
5 referring good customers to help that they were
6 asking you for?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me offer an
8 objection to the extent that the question seeks
9 a legal conclusion regarding employment that's
10 objectionable. But if you understand you can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I
13 don't know how we remunerated the doctor.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Well, did you actually say, "we'd like
16 to employ you" to doctors and "we'd --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- like to refer you to our customer
19 and help them"?
20 A. No, I never said we would like to
21 employ you.
22 Q. When you would refer a good customer to
23 some kind of medical professional, be it a
24 doctor or a specialist like a pathologist
25 because they asked you for help, would you pay
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1 those doctors or were you just a referral to a
2 good customer?
3 A. I don't know. I don't know about
4 remuneration things.
5 Q. You didn't arrange for remuneration in
6 any case, correct?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. At any of the over-the-years five
9 manufacturing plants you listed here today, were
10 asbestos-containing items produced in any of
11 them?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 Calls for speculation. But you can answer.
14 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Was there asbestos used in the fume
17 hoods?
18 A. There might have been questions at one
19 time about asbestos lining in a fume hood. I
20 don't have any concrete knowledge of did we put
21 asbestos products in the fume hood. I can't
22 answer that.
23 Q. Do you know anyone who would have that
24 knowledge?
25 A. Yes. A fume hood expert.
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1 Q. A fume hood expert who was employed by
2 Fisher Scientific or a fume hood expert
3 generally?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. The
5 question assumes facts. If you understand
6 what's about being asked, you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't quite understand.
8 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. Why don't we change
9 the tape now.
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the
11 record. This is the end of tape one of this
12 deposition.
13 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken
14 from 11:07 a.m. to 11:17 a.m.)
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
16 beginning of tape two in today's deposition.
17 The time now is 11:17 a.m. and we're back on the
18 record.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Good morning, again, Mr. Reilly.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Are you ready to go?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. Did Fisher Scientific ever have a
25 manufacturing plant in the State of Indiana or
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1 only in the Town or City of Indiana,
2 Pennsylvania?
3 A. Indiana, Pennsylvania.
4 Q. I just want to clarify something that
5 we were talking about just before we took our
6 break at the end of the first tape. As you sit
7 here today, do you recall whether the fume hoods
8 produced in Indiana, Pennsylvania and possibly
9 in Mountain Home, Arkansas contained asbestos?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
11 Asked and answered.
12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: But you can answer.
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall
17 any correspondence to or from anybody in the
18 plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania relating to
19 asbestos that was contained in the fume hoods?
20 A. Specifically, I do not recall. No.
21 Q. Have you reviewed any documents before
22 your deposition here today?
23 A. What kind of documents?
24 Q. I don't know. Have you reviewed
25 anything?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you -- did you know Robert Forte?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How did you know Mr. Forte?
5 A. We were both employees at Fisher
6 Scientific.
7 Q. Were you friends with Mr. Forte?
8 A. I didn't pal around with him. But yes,
9 we were friendly.
10 Q. After you left Fisher Scientific did
11 you remain friendly with Mr. Forte?
12 A. No. Never saw him.
13 Q. So the last time you would have seen
14 him was about the time you left the company?
15 A. I may have seen him in the office the
16 other day. It looked like him.
17 Q. What office?
18 A. At Fisher.
19 Q. You visited Fisher's office the other
20 day?
21 A. That's where I park. I didn't want to
22 drive here because it's too confusing for me.
23 Q. Oh, okay. Why did you park there the
24 other day?
25 A. To talk to an old employee friend of
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1 mine, Kathy Logerman.
2 Q. Was she or is she an attorney?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was she there in 1972?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was her job?
7 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
8 Q. Was she in the safety field in any way?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Your visit with Miss Logerman, was that
11 for purposes of preparing for today or was that
12 entirely personal?
13 A. She has nothing to do with today. It
14 was personal.
15 Q. Okay. Is there any other reason you
16 went to the offices of Fisher Scientific the
17 other day?
18 A. No. Maybe to discuss the upcoming
19 deposition.
20 Q. Who did you discuss it with?
21 A. Prior to today I talked to
22 Mr. Williams.
23 Q. Right. Who did you discuss it with the
24 other day when you were at Fisher Scientific's
25 offices?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
2 the form. It's vague. You're saying "the other
3 day".
4 Do you understand what's being asked,
5 the time frame?
6 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't really there
7 the other day. Prior to today I spoke with
8 Mr. Williams at the Fisher office.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. Do you recall testifying a couple of
11 minutes ago that you were at -- you parked your
12 car in Fisher Scientific's parking lot the other
13 day?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I'm confused now, no.
17 Q. When did you go visit Kathy Logerman at
18 Fisher Scientific?
19 A. I don't know which day. Recently.
20 Q. Within the last two weeks?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who else did you speak with other than
23 Kathy Logerman when you were there?
24 A. A young lady there named Edie.
25 Q. Is Edie an attorney?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Did your discussion with Edie have
3 anything to do with preparation for today's
4 deposition?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While at Fisher Scientific sometime in
7 the last two weeks, did you review any documents
8 whatsoever?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you, other than within the last
11 two weeks, visited Fisher Scientific's offices
12 for personal visits?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was this the first time in 20 years
15 you've been there?
16 A. First time I've ever been to that
17 building, period.
18 Q. Is that a new building?
19 A. It's new to me.
20 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Other than your
21 attorney, did you discuss this deposition with
22 anybody?
23 A. No. My wife and my attorney and
24 myself.
25 Q. Have you been shown documents by
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1 anybody?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How about this morning?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. How
5 about this morning what?
6 Do you understand the question?
7 THE WITNESS: Not really. I mean --
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. I can rephrase it, sir.
10 A. We talked this morning. Naturally, we
11 talked about --
12 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm instructing you not
13 to discuss -- don't testify to what we've talked
14 about.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Right. Did you meet with your attorney
17 this morning?
18 A. I had breakfast with him.
19 Q. Okay. How long were you together this
20 morning before you came in here for this
21 deposition with him?
22 A. Forty minutes.
23 Q. During that 40 minutes were you shown
24 any documents?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Were there documents on the table?
2 A. There were papers on the table.
3 Q. Did those papers relate to Fisher
4 Scientific documents from the past?
5 A. Those papers related to me.
6 Q. What does that mean?
7 A. My background.
8 Q. What were they, those papers?
9 A. I guess my resume.
10 Q. Was there a pile of papers about as
11 thick as this document? I'm looking at, an
12 inch, inch and a half, whatever this is on the
13 table in front of you.
14 A. I don't know. I didn't look at that.
15 Q. Were you shown documents Fisher
16 Scientific -- strike that.
17 Were you shown any Fisher Scientific
18 documents that were either written by you or
19 written to you or in which you were cc'd?
20 A. We discussed prior correspondence --
21 Q. I didn't ask what you discussed.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to instruct
23 you not to talk about what we talked about. But
24 you can testify to anything you saw, but you
25 can't talk about what you and I might have
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1 discussed because there's a privilege to that,
2 okay?
3 THE WITNESS: Uh-hum.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Were you shown any such documents this
6 morning?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And were they documents from
9 when you were employed by Fisher Scientific?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was your name on some of those
12 documents?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And were there others that did not have
15 your name?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. And were some of those documents from
18 the 1970s?
19 A. I believe so.
20 Q. Were all of those documents from the
21 1970s?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Other than in the 1970s, between then
24 and this morning, had you ever seen those
25 documents?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
2 the form. It's compound. Vague. If you
3 understand you can answer it.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the
5 question.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. I'm assuming that if your name was on a
8 letter or a memo sometime in the 1970s --
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. -- that you probably saw it if you
11 wrote it?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Saw it when? Object to
13 the form. Vague.
14 THE WITNESS: I probably saw it when I
15 wrote it.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Right. And if it was a letter or a
18 memo written to you, that you probably saw it
19 back then when it was produced and sent to you,
20 correct?
21 A. Back then, sure.
22 Q. Between the time that these documents
23 you saw this morning when they were originally
24 produced, in the 1970s let's say, and this
25 morning, did you ever see any of those
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1 documents?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In the last three weeks have you seen
4 any of those documents?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How long ago did you find out that your
7 deposition had been noticed that you would have
8 to give a deposition?
9 A. I don't remember the date when the
10 sheriff showed up and rang my doorbell.
11 Q. Was it more than a couple of months
12 ago?
13 A. Oh, no.
14 Q. Within the last two months?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. Okay. After the sheriff rang your
17 doorbell, did you contact anyone concerning what
18 the sheriff gave you?
19 A. I believe I talked to Mr. Williams and
20 said I received --
21 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to instruct
22 you not to discuss what you said to me. You can
23 indicate that you contacted me but not what you
24 said.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. How is it that you knew to contact
2 Mr. Williams?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. Can
4 you rephrase it, Counsel? I just don't want to
5 invoke the privilege.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Well, okay. You said you contacted
8 Mr. Williams after the sheriff delivered
9 something to your door, correct?
10 A. That's what I said, correct.
11 Q. Right. How is it that you knew to call
12 Mr. Williams specifically?
13 A. Because I knew he was going to
14 represent Fisher Scientific.
15 Q. How did you know that?
16 A. Somebody at Fisher Scientific told me
17 that.
18 Q. Okay. Did you call somebody at the
19 company here in Pittsburgh who referred you to
20 Mr. Williams?
21 A. I talked to somebody in Pittsburgh,
22 yes.
23 Q. Who did you call in Pittsburgh at
24 Fisher Scientific?
25 A. Kathy Hartman.
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1 Q. And I think you told me you believe she
2 was she an attorney?
3 A. I believe she is.
4 Q. And you knew her previous to the
5 sheriff coming to your door?
6 A. No, never met her. In fact, I still
7 haven't met her.
8 Q. When you got this document through the
9 sheriff, did you make the decision to call
10 Fisher Scientific?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you ask for an attorney?
13 A. I asked for Kathy Hartman.
14 Q. How did you know her name?
15 A. I talked to her prior. Never met her.
16 Q. Did you talk to her prior concerning
17 this matter, this deposition or other matters?
18 A. This matter.
19 Q. Okay. When the sheriff came to your
20 door, did you already know that somebody was
21 going to request your deposition be taken?
22 A. No, not really. No.
23 Q. But you had a discussion prior to the
24 sheriff coming to your door with Miss Hartman?
25 A. I talked to her on the phone, yes.
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1 Q. Concerning this case?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
3 the form. I'm instructing you not to answer
4 about the content of any communications you've
5 had with Kathy Hartman.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. How did you know to call Miss Hartman
8 before the sheriff ever came to your door?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
10 the form to the extent it invokes the privilege.
11 Perhaps, Counsel, you can rephrase it. I mean
12 this is getting unnecessarily complicated, I
13 think, for no purpose and I think you're
14 confusing the witness a little bit. But if you
15 want to rephrase it just to not invoke the
16 privilege.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Are you confused, sir, about my
19 question? Because I will rephrase it if you
20 want.
21 A. Yes, I am a little confused. Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm a little confused.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. You'll tell me if I'm wrong. At some
25 point a sheriff came to your door, correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Subsequent to that you called
3 Miss Hartman at Fisher Scientific, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Subsequent to that you got
6 Mr. Williams' name or because of that you got
7 Mr. Williams' name and you've been in contact
8 with Mr. Williams, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Before the sheriff ever came to your
11 door, did you have contact with Miss Hartman?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. I'm going to
13 object. It's asked and answered. But you can
14 answer it again.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to back up.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Feel free.
18 A. I've had three phone calls. Maybe one
19 of them from you. I don't recall.
20 Q. It was not from me, but that's okay. I
21 know what you're talking about?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: It might be somebody
23 from your office.
24 MR. HAKLAY: It was just not from me
25 personally.
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1 THE WITNESS: I received three phone
2 calls from a law firm I believe in New Jersey
3 who are representing the plaintiff. And after
4 the third phone call, it became in my opinion
5 harassment.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Is that when you called Miss Hartman?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his
9 answer.
10 MR. HAKLAY: I did.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: No, you didn't. Go
12 ahead and finish.
13 MR. HAKLAY: Go ahead, sir.
14 THE WITNESS: That's when I decided I'm
15 being harassed by some law firm about something
16 that I knew nothing about that may have happened
17 35 years ago, and I'm 75 years old and I don't
18 deserve this, so I called the legal department
19 at Fisher Scientific to tell them I think I'm
20 being harassed.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Okay. Now I understand exactly how you
23 reached out -- why you reached out to
24 Miss Hartman because you previously reached out
25 to her, correct?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. When you were phoned by somebody
3 connected with my firm, did they ask to speak to
4 you about issues related to asbestos at Fisher
5 Scientific?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But
7 you can answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I have it written down at
9 home exactly what they asked me. I don't
10 remember. I have to go home and look at it. I
11 have the date, the time of the phone call and
12 what they asked me.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Okay. As you sit here without those
15 notes of yours, are you saying that you do not
16 remember whether the person from my firm who
17 called you on the phone asked to speak about
18 asbestos at Fisher Scientific?
19 A. No, I do not remember that. I believe
20 they asked me -- there's a suit being filed and
21 we would just like to talk to you.
22 Q. And did you express to that person that
23 you didn't wish to talk to them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And subsequent to however many calls,
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1 you called Miss Hartman?
2 A. Yes. I called the legal department at
3 Thermo Fisher and that's who I talked to.
4 Q. Okay. Is that the first time you ever
5 spoke to Miss Hartman?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you for clearing that up. Back
8 to 1972, all right? Back in 1972, when you
9 first started, what was your role with regards
10 to production of the catalog at Fisher
11 Scientific?
12 A. When I first started my role was to
13 make sure that Fisher Scientific Company was in
14 compliance with OSHA standards. It had nothing
15 to do with the catalog.
16 Q. Did you have any responsibilities or
17 take any responsibilities as concerns to the
18 catalog in 1972 when you first got to Fisher
19 Scientific?
20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. To your knowledge did you review the
22 proposed catalog for 1973 before it was mailed,
23 I assume, all over the world?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection.
25 Object to the form. It's vague. But if you
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1 understand what's being asked, you can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Did there ever come a time when as
5 director of safety -- was that your title?
6 A. Corporate safety director.
7 Q. Thank you. Did there ever come a time
8 when as corporate safety director part of your
9 job was to review the proposed catalog before it
10 was sent out to potential customers?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you ever asked to do that by
13 anybody above you at Fisher Scientific?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
15 Vague. But you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. I
17 probably got involved occasionally with the
18 catalog because of my foresight in safety. I
19 probably brought it on.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. You probably initiated it, you're
22 saying?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you do that every year or just
25 sometimes?
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1 A. I don't recall that.
2 Q. Do you remember the first year that you
3 ever looked at the proposed catalog --
4 A. No.
5 Q. Let me finish my question.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: It works both ways. You
7 have to let him finish.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't mean
9 it.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. That's okay. Don't worry about it.
12 That's the way conversation works. It's an
13 unnatural process, okay?
14 Do you recall the first year that you
15 reviewed a proposed catalog before it was sent
16 out to consumers?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 Assumes facts and mischaracterizes the witness's
19 testimony. But you can answer.
20 THE WITNESS: No, no.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Do you recall ever reviewing an entire
23 catalog or proposed catalog before it was sent
24 out to consumers?
25 A. I don't believe I ever reviewed an
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1 entire proposed catalog.
2 Q. These catalogs could be hundreds or
3 thousands of pages long, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At least hundreds, if not thousands --
6 A. I wouldn't be capable.
7 Q. With at least hundreds of thousands of
8 products, correct? Hundreds or thousands of
9 products, correct?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Did you ever instruct anybody at any
12 plant or warehouse to review proposed catalogs
13 before they were produced to consumers?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was that topic ever discussed by your
16 superiors at Fisher Scientific with you?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 That topic is vague.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Let me be more specific. Did anybody
21 above you at Fisher Scientific ever discuss with
22 you the subject of whether you should or could
23 review proposed catalogs before they're sent to
24 consumers?
25 A. I don't believe so.
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1 Q. Do you recall any documents on the
2 subject of your superiors and you discussing the
3 subject of whether you should review proposed
4 catalogs before they're sent out to consumers?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
6 Assumes facts. But you can answer if you know.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Again,
8 something that I believe I said earlier, I think
9 the only time I got involved with a catalog was
10 the language of "OSHA approved". And I think I
11 did that on my own initiative.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I don't think someone told me to do
15 that.
16 Q. And we will get to that document and
17 you can give me your comments at that time on
18 that document, okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. If I forget to show it to you, tell me
21 that I said I would show it to you and I promise
22 I will show it to you, okay?
23 Did you have any role in the decision
24 to place or not place warnings or cautions in
25 Fisher Scientific catalogs?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
2 It's vague. But you can answer if you
3 understand.
4 THE WITNESS: Specifically, I don't
5 believe, no.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Were there any warnings or cautions in
8 any Fisher Scientific catalogs in the 1970s
9 while you were at Fisher?
10 A. I don't know. I can't recall that.
11 Q. Did any of your superiors ever mention
12 to you in the 1970s the topic of your reviewing
13 any potential warnings or cautions that could be
14 in the catalog?
15 A. I don't believe so.
16 Q. Did you have any regular -- I'm sorry,
17 let me back up.
18 Who produced this catalog?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you know was there a specific
21 department within Fisher Scientific that was in
22 charge of catalog production?
23 A. I do not know.
24 Q. Do you believe that you knew that back
25 in the '70s during your employment or was that
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1 something you wouldn't have known even then?
2 A. I don't think I knew it then.
3 Q. Do you recall ever having any contact
4 with a person or persons who were in charge of
5 compiling and putting out the catalogs Fisher
6 Scientific put out in the 1970s?
7 A. Specifically, no. Could it have
8 happened, sure.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I received thousands of correspondence.
11 Sure, it could have happened.
12 Q. But you don't recall any as you sit
13 here today?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And you didn't make it your business to
16 stay in contact with the people responsible for
17 putting out the catalog?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And to be fair, you do not believe that
20 was part of your job responsibilities, correct?
21 A. I didn't think it was necessary.
22 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss it with
23 anybody at Fisher Scientific whether it was
24 necessary or not?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But
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1 you can answer if you understand.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. As you sit here today, do you know
5 whether in the 1970s any warnings about any of
6 the products in the catalog were provided to
7 consumers?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
9 It's been asked and answered. But you can
10 answer it again.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Or I don't
12 recall.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. As you sit here today, during the 1970s
15 do you know whether any warnings about potential
16 hazards of asbestos were ever provided to any
17 consumers or people to whom the catalog was
18 mailed?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
20 It's vague. But if you understand you can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't think we were
23 selling any products that contained an asbestos
24 hazard, so the answer to your question would be
25 no.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. All right. Did you ever discuss -- let
3 me back up.
4 During the 1970s, were there
5 asbestos-containing products marketed through
6 your catalog?
7 A. I don't recall years. I know at one
8 time we sold a number of products that
9 supposedly contained asbestos.
10 Q. Why do you say "supposedly"?
11 A. Because I don't know if they did. I
12 didn't -- we didn't manufacture them.
13 Q. Well, I might show you in a little bit
14 from a couple of catalogs, but as for now all I
15 want to ask you is: If a catalog described a
16 product as containing asbestos or called it
17 asbestos gloves or asbestos mittens or asbestos
18 wallboard, are you saying that you're doubting
19 whether it really contained asbestos, those
20 products?
21 A. No.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. I'm
23 going to object to the form. It's argumentative
24 and it's been asked and answered. But over my
25 objection, if you understand, you can answer it
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1 again.
2 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question,
3 please.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. If Fisher Scientific catalogs in the
6 1970s contained products or marketed products
7 that stated that they had asbestos or had
8 contained asbestos, do you question those
9 descriptions?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But if
11 you understand you can answer again.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't think we ever
13 sold a product, period, that posed a health
14 hazard.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. If I did, I would have objected and
18 questioned it, yes.
19 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask my question
20 again. I understand your answer, but it's not
21 actually the question I asked.
22 If a product in the 1970s in your
23 catalog was described as containing asbestos or
24 had the word "asbestos" in its title, such as
25 asbestos gloves or asbestos mittens, do you
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1 agree that those products had asbestos in them?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object. It lacks
3 foundation and it assumes facts. You're asking
4 the witness to speculate. If you know what the
5 question relates to you can answer it.
6 THE WITNESS: I can't answer what some
7 other manufacturer says, number one. And number
8 two, I don't know whether some of these other
9 manufacturers -- you know, I'm not into language
10 in a catalog. That wasn't my job. Except OSHA
11 approved, I'll go back to that. I'm going to
12 say the answer to your question is no, if I
13 understand you.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Okay. No, you don't question whether
16 those products had asbestos?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
18 the form about whether he questions it or not.
19 Do you understand what what's being
20 asked?
21 THE WITNESS: Not really.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Maybe you can rephrase.
23 You have two ships passing here.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. If Fisher Scientific marketed products
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1 in its catalogs in the 1970s that stated that
2 they contained asbestos in them, do you doubt
3 that they had asbestos as you sit here today?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, our ships have
6 collided, I think.
7 Do you remember the first year that you
8 noticed the words "OSHA approved" or something
9 like that in one of your Fisher catalogs?
10 A. No.
11 Q. To your knowledge was that used in more
12 than one catalog or just one?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Do you know how it came to your
15 attention that --
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. -- that those words had been used in a
18 catalog?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object
20 because we're not talking about anything in
21 particular. We're assuming facts.
22 If you understand specifically what's
23 being asked, you can answer it. If you need
24 clarification, you can ask for that, too.
25 THE WITNESS: The answer to that
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1 question is no.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. However it happened, you learned that
4 it happened and you took action, correct?
5 A. Yes. I took action if it said OSHA
6 approved. I don't know how it happened.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yes, right.
9 Q. What were your specific
10 responsibilities with regard to the
11 manufacturing plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?
12 A. Safety.
13 Q. Was any testing done -- excuse me.
14 Were safety tests conducted during your tenure
15 at the plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?
16 A. What do you mean by "safety test"?
17 Explain that.
18 Q. I don't know. Did you -- I'll ask you,
19 what kind of testing, if any, that related to
20 safety was done in that plant during your
21 tenure.
22 A. Specifically, I don't recall. But I
23 will say that if we had any knowledge of a
24 potential hazard at Indiana, we would have done
25 the necessary and/or required monitoring.
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1 Q. Okay. Did that Indiana, Pennsylvania
2 manufacturing plant exist as a Fisher Scientific
3 manufacturing plant when you started?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it still there in 1989 when you
6 left?
7 A. I'm not sure. That's one of the
8 reasons that we opened up Mountain Home. We
9 moved a lot out of Fisher, Indiana.
10 Q. Did that Indiana, Pennsylvania plant
11 exist during the entire decade of the 1970s at
12 least?
13 A. I believe so, sure.
14 Q. Okay. You said -- a moment ago you
15 gave me sort of a hypothetical. If there was a
16 problem then we would have done something.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And ordered whatever tests were
19 necessary. Can you tell me during your tenure
20 what, if any, problems you recall arising at the
21 Indiana, Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Assumes
23 facts. But if you know you can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't
25 recall.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. If there was a potential problem, was
3 it the duty of whoever was in charge of safety
4 in Indiana, Pennsylvania to contact you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you believe that that hierarchy
7 actually worked such that the person in Indiana,
8 Pennsylvania was contacting you during your
9 years?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object to the
12 form. It calls for speculation. It's an
13 incomplete hypothetical.
14 If you understand what's being asked,
15 you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: If somebody in Indiana
17 that had safety responsibilities thought there
18 was a problem, yes, he would contact me. He or
19 she, sorry.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. And you were contacted over the years
22 about various things from Indiana, correct?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. When I say "Indiana", you know I mean
25 Indiana, Pennsylvania, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. That's why I asked about the
3 State of Indiana so as not to confuse it if I
4 forget to say "Pennsylvania".
5 A. Right, right.
6 Q. Do you recall any contact, be it on the
7 phone or in person, telex, letter, any kind of
8 contact from safety personnel in Indiana,
9 Pennsylvania regarding issues about asbestos?
10 A. No, I don't. And I believe I answered
11 that before, I'm not sure. No, I don't.
12 Q. Okay. Did you see any documents this
13 morning concerning asbestos use in the Indiana,
14 Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?
15 A. I don't know if I saw them this morning
16 or whether someone told me about it that there
17 was. I think when I first started talking to
18 Kathy Hartman --
19 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to instruct
20 you not to talk about the content of any
21 communication you had with Kathy Hartman or me.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Or any other lawyer. So
24 you may want to rephrase.
25 What's the pending question?
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1 MR. HAKLAY: Read him the question
2 back, please.
3 (Whereupon, the above-requested
4 question was then read by the reporter.)
5 MR. WILLIAMS: You can answer that.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Was that a yes or a no?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did those documents discuss that
10 asbestos was used for some purpose at the
11 Indiana, Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?
12 A. I don't know exactly what they
13 discussed. They did talk about Indiana,
14 Pennsylvania and asbestos.
15 Q. Okay. And as a result --
16 A. What was said in those correspondence,
17 I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. As a result of seeing that
19 document, do you believe that asbestos was used
20 during the manufacturing process of some product
21 at Indiana, Pennsylvania?
22 A. I'm not sure. Over the years I had
23 heard that maybe some fume hoods contained a
24 liner that may have contained some asbestos.
25 That's --
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1 Q. When you heard that from whatever
2 source, what steps did you take to confirm
3 whether or not asbestos was being used at
4 Fisher's plant in Indiana, Pennsylvania?
5 A. I probably went there to find out.
6 Q. Do you recall whether you actually went
7 there to find out when you heard this?
8 A. No. But I know I would have gone there
9 to find out.
10 Q. And do you recall what happened when
11 you got to the plant to find out?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: But you can answer if
15 you know.
16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. He already did. Do you recall who you
19 met with when you went there?
20 A. No. When I went to Indiana I met with
21 numerous people.
22 Q. On the issue of whether they were using
23 asbestos in products to manufacture products, do
24 you recall who you met with or talked with about
25 that specific subject when you said you would
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1 have gone to that plant?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 It's an incomplete hypothetical and it assumes
4 facts. But if you have a specific recollection,
5 you can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have a
7 specific recollection.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Okay. As a result of hearing things --
10 let me back up.
11 Who did you hear from over the years
12 that informed you or let you know that there
13 might have been asbestos being used in Indiana,
14 Pennsylvania?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. As a result of hearing these things
17 over the years -- actually, let me back up again
18 before I ask that question. I'll get to my
19 question eventually.
20 Do you recall what year it was that you
21 first heard this?
22 A. No.
23 Q. As a result of hearing this during
24 whatever year from whatever source, what actions
25 did you take besides your belief that you
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1 visited the plant?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to just object
3 because I think the question is so vague, it's
4 failed of its own weight at this point. But if
5 you have a specific recollection, you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I can only say this, if
8 somebody, anybody, in Fisher Scientific came to
9 me and said, we have asbestos products in
10 Indiana, I would have done something.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay. I thought you said that over the
13 years you did hear that from people at Fisher
14 Scientific?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
16 You're mischaracterizing his testimony.
17 THE WITNESS: Maybe I did.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: You can answer, though.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Okay. Whether -- okay. Do you recall
21 whether over the years you heard that they might
22 be using asbestos in Indiana?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object.
24 It's been asked and answered several times.
25 Over my objection, you can answer if you have a
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1 specific recollection.
2 THE WITNESS: If somebody at Indiana
3 said to me, we have a potential problem with
4 products with asbestos, I would have done
5 something. If that happened, I don't know who
6 that somebody was and I don't know what year it
7 was.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Are you differentiating between your
10 hearing that there was asbestos used and
11 somebody telling you that asbestos was a
12 problem?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
14 the form. I don't understand the question. If
15 you do you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: No. Excuse me, I am
17 totally confused now. I really am.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. A few minutes ago you told me that
20 you'd heard over the years that asbestos might
21 be using there, correct?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 It's been asked and answered. And I think
24 you're mischaracterizing it now.
25 If you have a specific recollection,
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1 you can give it.
2 THE WITNESS: I do not have a specific
3 recollection.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Of whether anybody ever told you that?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. All right. Okay. Was any testing --
8 excuse me. Were any dust counts ever taken at
9 any of the manufacturing plants during your
10 tenure as corporate safety director?
11 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
12 the term "dust counts" as vague.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know what "dust
14 count" means.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Did you ever hire someone or have
17 someone within Fisher Scientific measure the
18 amount of dust in any specific area within any
19 of Fisher Scientific's manufacturing plants?
20 A. I don't recall specifically. But if a
21 problem came up with a fume or vapor or a dust
22 that would injure or hurt one of our employees,
23 then we did something about it and took
24 appropriate steps, yes.
25 Q. Do you recall ever actually having
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1 taken or ordered those steps taken yourself?
2 A. Specifically, no, I do not recall that.
3 Q. Do you recall whether anybody else took
4 or specifically ordered those steps to be taken
5 at any of your manufacturing plants?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection
8 in and you can answer. I'm going to object to
9 the form of the question as vague. But if you
10 understand it, you can answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall
12 specifically.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. So as you sit here today, as far as you
15 know, during your tenure at Fisher Scientific
16 nobody measured the amount of dust in any
17 specific area within any of your manufacturing
18 plants, correct?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know that.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Misstates the testimony
22 but you can answer again. It's argumentative,
23 frankly.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. Have you seen any documents at any
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1 time --
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Did we get an answer to
3 the last question?
4 MR. HAKLAY: Yes, we did.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: What was it?
6 (Whereupon, the above-requested answer
7 was then read by the reporter.)
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Have you seen any documents at any time
10 that even suggests that dust counting happened
11 at any of the manufacturing plants Fisher
12 Scientific owned during your tenure there?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object.
14 Dust counting is vague and the question is
15 argumentative. Over my objection, if you have a
16 specific recollection, you can testify.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know what "dust
18 counting" means. I never heard that term in my
19 life.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Okay. Have you seen any documents that
22 even suggest that at any time during your tenure
23 at Fisher Scientific any measurements were taken
24 of the amount of dust in any area of any of your
25 production facilities?
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1 A. Dust, no.
2 Q. Have you seen any documents at any time
3 that suggest that other substances were measured
4 in Fisher Scientific meas -- manufacturing
5 plants?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 It's vague. But you can answer if you know.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm going to say
9 probably. Because I know over the years we
10 probably measured chemical vapors at Fair Lawn,
11 New Jersey.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. When you answer that question, are you
14 referring to a specific document or a general
15 memory you have?
16 A. A general memory.
17 Q. Do you have a specific memory that you
18 ever ordered or instructed someone to measure
19 vapors at your Fair Lawn, New Jersey facility?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you have a specific memory that you
22 ever asked anyone else to do that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have a specific memory of seeing
25 any documents that said that that had been done
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1 even if you had no involvement in the process?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did Fisher Scientific safety department
4 have subscriptions to any scientific or medical
5 journals?
6 A. Oh, sure. I would think so, yes.
7 Q. For a long time you were the safety
8 department -- corporate safety department,
9 correct?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. What journals or publications did you
12 have a subscription to?
13 A. I probably read "Occupational Hazards"
14 which is a national magazine about safety. I'm
15 sure I had documents from insurance companies
16 about safety. I read available literature about
17 safety my entire time at Fisher Scientific.
18 Q. What's the "available literature"?
19 What do you mean by that phrase?
20 A. "Occupational Hazards", insurance
21 companies. I don't recall the titles now. OSHA
22 standards, OSHA briefs, Western Pennsylvania
23 Safety Council publications, National Safety
24 Council publications. Yes, I've read numerous.
25 Q. Did you have a library where you kept
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1 such publications?
2 A. Sure. Sure.
3 Q. Was it called a library?
4 A. No. I just kept my stuff. It's my
5 office.
6 Q. Was this passed on to your successor
7 when you left?
8 A. Sure. I didn't take anything home with
9 me. Sure.
10 Q. You said that during the course of your
11 career you took various courses in various
12 safety topics. When was the first time you ever
13 took a course related to asbestos?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
15 It's vague. But you can answer if you
16 understand.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I ever
18 took a course related to asbestos because we
19 didn't have an asbestos problem to my knowledge.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. As the corporate safety director, what
22 steps, if any, did you take to ensure that the
23 asbestos-containing products that were sold in
24 your catalogs were safe for consumers?
25 A. Were safe?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form as
2 vague. But you can answer if you understand.
3 THE WITNESS: I didn't believe then and
4 I don't believe now that any of our products
5 that contained asbestos were a health hazard to
6 our customers.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Are you saying that you took no steps
9 to ensure that those products --
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Let me finish my question.
12 A. I'm sorry.
13 Q. That's okay. Are you saying you took
14 no steps to ensure that those products that you
15 sold in your catalog that contained asbestos
16 were safe for consumers?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 It's a complete mischaracterization of his
19 testimony. But over my objection you can answer
20 that.
21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not saying that.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. What did you do to ensure that the
24 products were safe for consumers?
25 A. Probably wrote OSHA letters saying do
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1 these products come under your OSHA regulatory
2 asbestos standard.
3 Q. Is it your testimony that if a product
4 didn't come under a specific standard then it
5 was therefore safe for consumers?
6 A. No, that's not my statement.
7 Q. Okay. What else, if anything, did you
8 do besides probably writing to OSHA about
9 certain products coming under a specific OSHA
10 standard?
11 A. Read the available literature, read the
12 available research, talked personally to OSHA,
13 talked personally to pathologists, talked
14 personally to laboratory managers, talked
15 personally to laboratory technicians.
16 Q. Laboratory technicians at Fisher
17 Scientific or elsewhere?
18 A. Both.
19 Q. At companies -- laboratory technicians
20 at companies that provided products for your
21 catalog?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Did you speak with them?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Misstates the testimony.
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1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Because I
2 don't know the name of the companies that
3 provided the products to our catalogs or I sure
4 don't recall.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. When you first got to Fisher Scientific
7 did you ask for or conduct an inventory of all
8 the asbestos-containing products that Fisher
9 Scientific sold in its catalogs?
10 A. No.
11 Q. I think a moment ago you told me that
12 the fact that something was covered by an OSHA
13 regulatory standard doesn't necessarily mean
14 it's safe for consumers.
15 A. That's correct, what I told you.
16 Q. Other than consulting OSHA regulatory
17 standards and consulting OSHA, what did you do
18 specifically with regard to the asbestos-
19 containing products that were sold in your
20 catalog to make sure that they were safe for
21 consumers?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 It's been asked and specifically answered at
24 length. But over my objection you can answer it
25 again.
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1 THE WITNESS: I didn't believe then and
2 I don't believe now that a pair of gloves can
3 cause any health hazard to a human being. There
4 was no literature, there were no standards,
5 there was no testimony, there was no credible
6 evidence, there was no research, there was no
7 reason to even think in the entire safety
8 medical regulatory community that a pair of
9 gloves or a mat could cause health hazards. So
10 therefore --
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask the suppliers
13 of products to your catalogs to in any way prove
14 that their products were safe for consumers?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
16 It's vague on several levels. If you understand
17 what's being asked, you can answer it.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't believe
19 specifically, no.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. More specifically with regards to
22 asbestos, did you ever ask any of the suppliers
23 of asbestos-containing products to Fisher, who
24 marketed and sold them through their catalogs,
25 to prove to you that those products were safe
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1 for their regular intended use by consumers?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 It's vague. The word "prove" is vague. "Safe"
4 is vague. Over my objection, if you understand
5 what's being asked, you can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe I do.
7 There was no evidence in the world to my
8 knowledge by any expert, including medical
9 people, that a pair of laboratory gloves or a
10 mat could cause health hazards to a human being.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Therefore --
14 Q. I understand your position on that, but
15 I'm going to ask my specific question again.
16 Did you ever ask any supplier who supplied
17 asbestos-containing products --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- to Fisher Scientific for sale in its
20 catalog to provide any proof that the products
21 were safe for their intended use?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection.
23 Object to the form. It's vague and asked and
24 answered. But you can answer again.
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. As you sit here today, do you have any
3 idea whether any of the producers to
4 manufactures -- let me back up and get the
5 wording right.
6 As you sit here today, do you have any
7 idea whether the manufacturers of asbestos-
8 containing products that were sold through the
9 Fisher Scientific catalog in the 1970s ever did
10 any testing to determine whether asbestos fibers
11 were released from those products during their
12 normal use by consumers?
13 A. I have no knowledge of that, no.
14 Q. All right. As you sit here today, do
15 you have any idea whether anybody else at Fisher
16 Scientific ever asked manufacturers of asbestos-
17 containing products to prove that their normal
18 use didn't present a hazard to anyone?
19 A. No, I don't know that.
20 Q. Okay. It sounds like from based on
21 your testimony that if anybody were to have done
22 anything like that, it would be you, correct?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
24 assumes facts. But you can answer it.
25 THE WITNESS: If I thought there was a
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1 health hazard involved with a Fisher product, I
2 would have done something, yes.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Right.
5 A. I would have been the person, yes.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you okay? Do you
7 want to take a break?
8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm all right.
9 MR. HAKLAY: I think we're going to be
10 at lunchtime at the end of this tape, assuming
11 people want to take lunch and assuming you want
12 to take lunch. I'm up for whatever anybody
13 wants to be up for.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. I'm going to ask you the same question
16 only instead of about the catalog, I'm going to
17 ask you about any manufactured items by Fisher
18 Scientific that contained asbestos so we're
19 clear.
20 Here's my question: Do you know of
21 anybody else that ever ordered -- let me back
22 up. I don't need to ask it. Forget I said that
23 that entire introduction.
24 Were you in charge of educating anybody
25 about workplace dangers or safety issues?
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1 A. My, yes.
2 Q. Who were you in charge of educating or
3 were you in charge of educating everybody?
4 A. I probably educated thousands and
5 thousands of customers.
6 Q. Okay. In terms of Fisher Scientific
7 employees, were you in charge of safety
8 education?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What range of people within Fisher
11 Scientific were you in charge of safety
12 education for? Or was it everybody?
13 A. It was every Fisher employee, yes.
14 Q. Did you provide any training yourself
15 or did you train others to train their own
16 subordinates?
17 A. Both.
18 Q. Did you ever provide any training --
19 I'm sorry, in Fair Lawn, New Jersey you said --
20 what was the potential danger that you couldn't
21 remember specifically but you said you might
22 have taken a measurement for?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. The
24 term "danger" is vague and I think it misstates
25 the testimony. But over my objection you can
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1 answer.
2 THE WITNESS: The monitoring of
3 chemical vapors.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Okay. Did you provide any training
6 yourself to people in Fair Lawn, New Jersey
7 about the dangers or potential dangers of
8 chemical vapors?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you train others to train people in
11 Fair Lawn about those dangers?
12 A. Yes. But, first of all, we had a
13 full-time safety professional at Fair Lawn who
14 reported to me indirectly.
15 Q. So are you saying that that person also
16 would have had some training responsibilities?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Even if it was indirectly, did you
19 confer with that person to --
20 A. Constantly.
21 Q. Let me finish. So you would know what
22 issues they were dealing with and make sure it
23 was as complete as possible?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there somebody like that at the
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1 Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 "Like that" is vague.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. I'm sorry. That's okay. I'll make it
6 less vague.
7 Was there a full-time safety
8 professional at the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you train anybody on any safety
11 issues at the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What issues did you train employees at
14 the Indiana, Pennsylvania plant on?
15 A. Safety and health issues.
16 Q. Can you recall what safety issues you
17 actually dealt with at that plant?
18 A. Sure. Housekeeping, fire protection,
19 first aid.
20 Q. Is that also a plant where you trained
21 other people to provide that training in
22 Indiana, Pennsylvania?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But
24 if you understand you can answer.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Did you ever provide any training to
3 anybody at any of your manufacturing plants
4 about asbestos?
5 A. Specifically, no.
6 Q. Did you ever instruct somebody below
7 you or at one of the plants to provide training
8 about the potential hazards of asbestos to
9 anybody at your manufacturing plants?
10 A. Specifically, no. I don't recall. I
11 don't believe so.
12 Q. Did you ever undertake as corporate
13 safety director a search of historical
14 literature on the -- what's been known about the
15 dangers of asbestos through the years?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. How far back did you go?
18 A. What year?
19 Q. Yes. How far back in the literature
20 did you go, I'm sorry.
21 A. I'm very poor at dates and times. I
22 don't know.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. But the answer to your question is
25 absolutely.
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1 Q. Did you go back as early as the
2 beginning of the 20th century to look for
3 literature?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 It's been asked and answered.
6 THE WITNESS: Probably not.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: If you know you can
8 answer.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. Did you go back to the 1930s or so, a
11 long time before you started, to find out what
12 was known back then?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
14 It's vague. It assumes facts. If you have a
15 specific recollection, you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Do you know how far back in the search
19 for knowledge you went approximately?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. How long a project did you undertake to
22 educate yourself on the potential hazards of
23 asbestos exposure?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
25 the form. Hazard of asbestos exposure is vague
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1 and undefined and the question assumes facts.
2 But if you understand what's being asked, you
3 can answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you
5 mean by "hazards".
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Is the word "hazard" something you used
8 in your job at Fisher Scientific?
9 A. Sure.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But I'm not sure --
12 Q. What did it mean to you --
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his
14 answer. You said you're not sure --
15 THE WITNESS: I use these gloves. If
16 you ate them, that's a hazard.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. During your research that you stated
19 you did into asbestos, did you form a conclusion
20 as to whether asbestos could be dangerous to
21 humans in any circumstance?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 Mischaracterizes the witness's testimony that he
24 did research. I don't believe that was his
25 testimony. But if you understand what's being
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1 asked specifically, you can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Whenever I had knowledge
3 of asbestos, I researched all of the available
4 literature. And I found out that from all
5 available literature that it was hazardous to
6 people if they cut it, drilled it, freed it into
7 the air, broke it, tore it.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Longshoring.
11 Q. What does "freed it into the air" mean?
12 A. Fibers in the air.
13 Q. Is that process of fibers in the air,
14 freed into the air, specific to a particular
15 kind of use in an asbestos product or not?
16 A. Sure. Longshoring I just mentioned.
17 Construction, demolition. If back in the '50s
18 you were an employee who was relining a boiler
19 and you had to tear the old lining off the
20 boiler, that was asbestos.
21 Q. Okay. Do you believe that those liners
22 or pipe coverings or insulation were a hundred
23 percent asbestos or they were asbestos-
24 containing products?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Let me
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1 object. We're talking about an incomplete
2 hypothetical. Assuming facts that aren't even
3 defined in the question. If you understand
4 specifically what's being asked, you can answer.
5 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have the
6 answer to that.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Do you know one way or the other?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. If you
10 understand what --
11 THE WITNESS: I don't have the answer
12 to the physical 100 percent makeup of products.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Okay. Did you reach a conclusion in
15 your attempt to learn about asbestos at Fisher
16 Scientific as to whether products that were less
17 than 100 percent asbestos could nevertheless
18 release asbestos fibers into the air?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Form.
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Did you ever try to reach a -- or find
23 an answer to that question while you were at
24 Fisher Scientific?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But
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1 if you understand, you can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I tried to find out did
3 any of our products pose a risk to users, yes.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Did you ever do research or attempt to
6 learn about the general nature of the potential
7 hazards of asbestos to human beings outside of
8 your specific products from your catalogs?
9 A. Sure.
10 Q. Okay. And what conclusion did you
11 reach about that?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 Assumes facts. If you formed a conclusion or if
14 you have a specific recollection, you can
15 testify to it.
16 THE WITNESS: I am not an asbestos
17 expert. Nobody in this room is an asbestos
18 expert --
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, one might be.
20 MR. HAKLAY: I'm with you on that. Go
21 ahead, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: And I say that in all
23 honesty.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, I was
25 not pointing at Jack Reilly when I said that.
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1 I'm sorry I interrupted you.
2 MR. HAKLAY: I'm an expert on murderers
3 personally because that's what I've done most of
4 my career, prosecute them. Tell me -- finish
5 your answer, please.
6 THE WITNESS: The credible evidence on
7 asbestos from everybody, from safety
8 professionals, from researchers, from doctors,
9 that asbestos could be injurious to health if
10 certain set fibers got into their system. And
11 they related that to specific occupations such
12 as I said before, shipbuilding, demolition,
13 construction, pipe covering, pipe demolition,
14 boiler manufacturer, building materials, ceiling
15 tiles, floor materials. They had the potential
16 to release fibers which had the potential to
17 make people sick.
18 But there were numerous other health
19 factors associated with that. Did those people
20 smoke, how much did they breathe, for what
21 duration did they breathe. That was the
22 available literature and the knowledge and the
23 expert evidence.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. In the 1970s?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. I just wanted to pinpoint it to
3 when you were talking about it.
4 A. Yes. And before.
5 Q. So if I understand you correctly, in
6 your review of whatever literature you reviewed,
7 you read that there were people in certain
8 professions who were exposed to released
9 asbestos fibers, correct?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
11 the form. He said a lot more than that so it's
12 an incomplete hypothetical. It's been asked and
13 answered. If you want to answer it again, give
14 a complete answer, you can do so.
15 THE WITNESS: I'll just try to --
16 MR. WILLIAMS: The question
17 mischaracterizes the testimony today.
18 THE WITNESS: I'll just try to clarify
19 this.
20 MR. HAKLAY: Can you answer my question
21 while you clarify?
22 THE WITNESS: That's what I'm going to
23 try and do.
24 MR. HAKLAY: Then fine.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not an asbestos
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1 expert. Did I research literature that said
2 certain products containing asbestos could
3 release fibers in the air when this occurred
4 with those products and could potentially cause
5 health hazards? Yes.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. That was a perfect answer, meaning it
8 was an answer for my question. So thank you for
9 clarifying that.
10 A. You're welcome.
11 Q. Did you have any responsibilities with
12 regards to education of Fisher Scientific's
13 sales staff on hazards of products sold in the
14 catalogs?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
16 assumes facts not in evidence; namely, there was
17 a hazard. But over my objection, if you have a
18 specific recollection, you can give it.
19 THE WITNESS: Occasionally I would
20 travel with salespeople from Fisher Scientific
21 and answer their customers' safety concerns
22 right with the salesperson.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Did you see -- I'm sorry.
25 A. Occasionally they would invite me to
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1 sales meetings to address the salesforce. So
2 the answer to your question: Did I ever
3 interface with Fisher's salespeople concerning
4 safety? Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever have meetings with groups
6 of salespeople specifically to educate them
7 about safety issues?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And did you take it upon
10 yourself to do that?
11 A. Both. I'd be invited or I'd take it --
12 or invite myself.
13 Q. When you spoke to the sales staff,
14 whether at their invitation or your initiative
15 in meetings with some group of sales staff, did
16 you ever talk to them about asbestos?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: I was objecting to the
20 form as vague. But over my objection you can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: It never came up.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. At these meetings, whether you asked to
25 have them or they invited you to come speak to
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1 them, did you ever set the agenda yourself?
2 A. No. I set my agenda but not the agenda
3 of the meeting.
4 Q. Did you ever say -- decide I'm going
5 there and I need to tell them X, Y and Z?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 THE WITNESS: Sure.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. And I take it, other times you
10 responded to their questions and concerns; is
11 that fair?
12 A. That's fair.
13 Q. During the times where you decided that
14 there were things you needed to impart, whether
15 or not they asked about them, did you ever have
16 asbestos on that list?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. During the times you traveled
19 with salespeople on sales calls as part of your
20 job, did you ever answer customers' questions
21 about asbestos?
22 A. No. Never came up.
23 Q. Did you ever take it upon yourself to
24 raise the issue with a customer?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
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1 THE WITNESS: No. There was no
2 credible evidence about anything that Fisher
3 Scientific Company had to do with health
4 hazards. No.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Did you ever undertake any kind of
7 project or ask somebody else at Fisher
8 Scientific to do so to determine specifically
9 what type of asbestos was in the asbestos-
10 containing products that were sold through your
11 catalog?
12 A. Not to my knowledge. There was no
13 reason to.
14 Q. Okay. Did Fisher Scientific -- excuse
15 me. When a product would be sold through your
16 catalog, would Fisher Scientific receive any
17 manual that came with that product to pass on to
18 consumers?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
20 It's vague and incomplete.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
22 That's marketing. I don't know that.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Was there any kind of a requirement at
25 Fisher Scientific that a supplier of a product
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1 that would be then resold by you through your
2 catalog provide any specific information about
3 that product?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 It's incomplete, vague. If you understand
6 specifically what's being asked, you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: If I understand your
8 question, and I'm not quite sure I do, if we
9 sold first aid kits and OSHA had a requirement
10 all first aid supplies shall be approved by the
11 consulting physician; we didn't manufacture the
12 first aid kits, we distributed them. So I would
13 say to the manufacturer: Have you received
14 approval on your first aid kits by your
15 consulting physician? Yes.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Just so I understand, that consulting
18 physician would be somebody who actually worked
19 for or was hired by the manufacturer --
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. -- to approve the product before it
22 could be sold legally?
23 A. That's correct. Let me maybe try to
24 clarify it.
25 Q. Give me one second. Go ahead.
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1 A. OSHA had a requirement, which is law,
2 the law of the land, your first aid kit must be
3 approved by a consulting physician. So I would
4 ask the manufacturer of the first aid kits, do
5 you have approval from a consulting physician?
6 Sure.
7 Q. Understood. Did they have to provide
8 -- did you insist they provide you with some
9 kind of certification or document to show --
10 A. Certainly, if I asked that. Certainly.
11 Q. Did you ask -- was that a requirement
12 you had that they provide such a thing in the
13 case of first aid kits?
14 A. It's a requirement I asked for, yes.
15 Q. Okay. With regards to the asbestos-
16 containing products sold through your Fisher
17 Scientific catalog, did you ever insist that any
18 kind of documentation related to potential
19 release of asbestos fibers be provided to you?
20 A. No.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object. It
22 assumes facts not in evidence.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Do you know whether anybody else at
25 Fisher Scientific ever required something like
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1 that?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection.
3 THE WITNESS: My answer would be
4 probably not because -- and I guess I'm
5 repeating myself -- there was no credible
6 evidence in the world that laboratory products
7 that contained asbestos could potentially cause
8 a health hazard. None. So therefore why would
9 we --
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. I guess my last question --
12 A. It would be like -- I'm not being
13 funny. It would be like does this glass contain
14 asbestos, does this telephone contain asbestos,
15 does it release fibers. There's no evidence in
16 the world that this glass releases asbestos
17 fibers. So the answer is no.
18 Q. So was it your belief that asbestos
19 gloves could not release fibers under any normal
20 usage circumstances?
21 A. It was my belief --
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Asked and
23 answered. You can answer it again.
24 THE WITNESS: It was my belief that
25 asbestos gloves could (sic), weren't and would
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1 not create a potential health hazard.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: You said couldn't or
3 could? You said --
4 THE WITNESS: Could not.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have to go off
7 the record. This is the end of tape two in
8 today's deposition. The time now is 12:21 and
9 we're off the record.
10 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken
11 from 12:21 p.m. to 1:11 p.m.)
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
13 beginning of tape three of today's deposition.
14 We're going back on the record. The time now is
15 1:11 p.m.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Reilly.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Did you get a chance to get something
20 to eat?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, as you noticed we've been taking
23 breaks at the end of the videotapes which you
24 have noticed they're an hour long. There's no
25 reason for you to know that. If for any reason
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1 this afternoon, because you've already been
2 doing this for two full tapes, you think an hour
3 is too long and you need a break and you want to
4 stop after 45 minutes, we'll take breaks then or
5 whenever you need to, okay?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. If you don't, we'll go the hour unless
8 you tell us.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. I'm going to move on a little from what
11 we were talking about this morning, you will
12 probably be happy to hear.
13 Something I forgot to ask you this
14 morning. It is your understanding that what was
15 delivered to you by sheriffs at your door was a
16 subpoena?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. To appear at this deposition?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And just because I didn't ask you, were
21 those sheriffs unpleasant in any way to you?
22 A. No. He was very nice. But I did ask
23 him -- because this is all new to me -- can I
24 make a phone call before I accept this subpoena
25 and he says, no, you have no choice. I said,
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1 okay.
2 Q. So you made your phone call afterwards?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Sir, in
5 preparation for this deposition, did you review
6 the deposition transcripts of any of the three
7 Plaintiffs in this matter: Robert Blackburn,
8 Raymond Feldner or Andrew Zakanych?
9 A. No. Never heard of any of them.
10 Q. Do you know anything specifically about
11 the products that they claim they were exposed
12 to that exposed them to asbestos?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I take it then, you have no opinion as
15 to whether they are or not telling the truth
16 about anything?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
19 assumes facts.
20 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. I'm finally going
21 to mark the first document. I've marked each,
22 by the way, as John Reilly 1 and then 3/1/11 and
23 then obviously the next one will be 2, 3 or 4.
24 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 1, a document -
25 9/7/71, was then received and marked for
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1 identification.)
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. I have one for you and for the most
4 part I have one at a deposition. We'll make a
5 pile when we're done and give them to the court
6 reporter, the officially marked ones. Okay,
7 sir?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Just for the record, this is a document
10 that's two-sided that's dated September 7th,
11 1972.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: What exhibit number is
13 this?
14 MR. HAKLAY: This is Number 1.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't have a --
16 MR. HAKLAY: No, no. You need to keep
17 the one with the number. I just put a sticker
18 on it just now. That's number one. I'll say
19 the number of each one as I mark it, sir.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: This is John Reilly 1?
21 MR. HAKLAY: Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm with you.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Okay. And it's written to Tom Price
25 and Peter V. Del Boca and it's from someone --
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1 I'm sorry, it's written to Tom Price from Peter
2 V. Del Boca; is that correct, sir?
3 A. What's that, please?
4 Q. Is what I just said correct, that this
5 is a September 7, 1972 letter from Tom Price to
6 Peter V. Del Boca -- I'm sorry, from Peter V.
7 Del Boca to Tom Price?
8 A. 1971.
9 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to object
10 to form. It lacks foundation. But if you know
11 you can answer.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. You just corrected me because I said
14 "1972" and it looks like it says "1971".
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Correct?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And I will acknowledge it says
19 September 7, 1971. I misread it.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Other than that, do you know who
22 Mr. Price was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was Mr. Price?
25 A. I believe he was in either marketing or
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1 sales.
2 Q. And do you know who Mr. Del Boca was?
3 A. That name is not familiar to me.
4 Q. Okay. On the back under his -- where
5 his signature would be, it has his name and it
6 says "Quality Investigation Chemist". Have you
7 ever heard of such a title?
8 A. No. But he's probably at Fair Lawn,
9 I'm guessing. I don't know.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't want you to
11 guess or speculate. Just answer what you know.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. No. He is from
13 Fair Lawn.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. The document states he's from Fair
16 Lawn, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Right on the top. And the document
19 refers in its first sentence to Walt Fisher. Do
20 you know who that is?
21 A. I know the name.
22 Q. Who was he?
23 A. He was I believe -- I believe a Fisher
24 employee. I recognize the name.
25 Q. Okay. And this document -- this
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1 document predates your time at Fisher
2 Scientific, correct, because it's 1971?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Have you ever seen this document before
5 just now?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you shown it this morning?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. The second paragraph talks
10 about A-908 asbestos or the amphibole type which
11 contains -- which includes various silicates of
12 magnesium, iron, calcium and sodium, correct?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object. The
14 document speaks for itself. Over my objection
15 you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Are you saying correct,
17 does it say that?
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Yes. Correct, does it say that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you know, when I read something from
22 a document I will always ask you, did I do so
23 correctly, so you don't think I'm misleading
24 you. If I read something wrong or say something
25 that you don't see there, you tell me, you read
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1 it wrong or it doesn't say that, okay?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. And we'll try to figure out whether I'm
4 an idiot or whether I'm just referring to
5 something you're not looking at.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. This clearly refers to A-908 asbestos.
8 Do you recognize that phrase as something you
9 know of?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know what amphibole type of
12 asbestos means?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you believe you knew that back in
15 the 1970s, what amphibole type of asbestos
16 meant, or is that something you've never really
17 heard before?
18 A. I've never really heard that name
19 before.
20 Q. After there's a list of what look like
21 chemicals and stuff, right, on the first page?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 Over my objection you can answer.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. And then there's a paragraph that
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1 starts, "This material is toxic," correct? Do
2 you see that? I just want to make sure you're
3 with me.
4 A. Yeah, I see that.
5 Q. It says, "This material is toxic by
6 inhalation of dust particles. The tolerance, in
7 air, is about 2 million particles per cubic
8 foot. Prolonged exposure to the dust can result
9 in pulmonary fibrosis (asbestosis), emphysema
10 and lung neoplasms."
11 Did I read that correctly, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know what asbestosis is?
14 A. I believe it may be a form of lung
15 cancer.
16 Q. In your research back when you were at
17 Fisher Scientific that you told me that you did
18 into asbestos and its potential hazards were
19 dangers, did you come across the term
20 "asbestosis"?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection
23 out. Mischaracterizes the witness's prior
24 testimony about research. But over my
25 objection, you can listen to his question and
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1 then answer it if you have knowledge.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. I think you already answered.
4 A. I heard the name "asbestosis" before.
5 Q. In the review of literature you did
6 back when you were at Fisher Scientific on the
7 subject of asbestos, did you form an opinion
8 yourself or learn what causes asbestosis?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know what a lung neoplasm is?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If someone said to you that a lung
13 neoplasm is lung cancer, a malignancy, would
14 that mean anything to you or it means nothing to
15 you?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
17 assumes facts. If you know you can answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I know what they
19 mean by lung cancer, yes.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Do you know what -- do you associate a
22 neoplasm with a tumor cancerous tumor?
23 A. No. I don't know what they mean by
24 neoplasm.
25 Q. Is that a word that you believe you ran
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1 across into while during your time at Fisher
2 Scientific that came across your desk in
3 documents or otherwise?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Assumes
5 facts. But you can answer other.
6 THE WITNESS: Neoplasm?
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever attempt to seek out or
11 review literature on the causes of lung cancer
12 when you were at Fisher Scientific?
13 A. I've talked to people about lung
14 cancer. To doctors.
15 Q. Doctors in relation to your work --
16 A. Customers. Yes, in relation to my
17 work.
18 Q. Customers who purchased things from
19 your catalog or other customers?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming that
22 hospitals purchased things from our catalogs and
23 over the course of my years, I talked to
24 doctors.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. And in what context did you talk to
2 them about lung cancer?
3 A. Chemicals.
4 Q. Not asbestos?
5 A. Broad category of chemicals.
6 Q. Do you consider asbestos to be a
7 chemical?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. You
9 can answer if you understand what's being asked.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm not a chemist, but in
11 the broad form, I would say it's in the chemical
12 family.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Okay. When you talked to these doctors
15 at let's say hospital customers of Fisher
16 Scientific, did you discuss asbestos with them
17 specifically?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Where it says in that second paragraph,
20 "our A-908 asbestos," do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then it talks about asbestosis and
23 lung neoplasms a couple of paragraphs down.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Couple of paragraphs,
25 where are you referring to, Counsel?
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Do you see in the second full paragraph
3 it starts, "our A-908 asbestos"?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Then I called it a paragraph, it may
6 not be -- a list of chemicals with some numbers
7 next to it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then the next full paragraph
10 starts, "This material is toxic" includes, as we
11 already read, a reference to asbestosis and lung
12 neoplasms, correct?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
14 THE WITNESS: Correct.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. At any time during your research or
17 self-education on the issue of asbestos at
18 Fisher Scientific, did you associate asbestos
19 exposure with either asbestosis or lung
20 neoplasms?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
22 Vague. If you understand you can answer.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I
24 understand. I'll try to answer what I think I
25 understand you asked me.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Go ahead.
3 A. At my time at Fisher I did research and
4 read literature on asbestos and lung cancer,
5 yes. But it had nothing to do with Fisher
6 Scientific laboratory products.
7 Q. Okay. And you understand --
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel, you keep
9 interrupting him.
10 MR. HAKLAY: No, I don't. I believe he
11 was finished.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: No, he wasn't finished.
13 You're jumping in and cutting him off. Let him
14 finish.
15 MR. HAKLAY: Are you finished?
16 THE WITNESS: I was thinking about
17 something else. Where I'm getting a little
18 confused is if there were any literature on
19 Fisher laboratory products or anybody else's
20 laboratory products and asbestos, I would have
21 known about it. I would have talked about it.
22 I would have studied it. There was none.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Okay. Mr. Del Boca was a Fisher
25 Scientific employee you told me, correct?
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1 A. I told you I didn't recognize that
2 name.
3 Q. Right. But then you told me you
4 thought he worked in Fair Lawn because that's
5 what it says, correct?
6 A. That's what it says, yes.
7 Q. People who worked at Fair Lawn were
8 Fisher Scientific employees, correct?
9 A. Yes --
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
11 You're asking him for a legal conclusion as to
12 whether a person he doesn't know was an employee
13 legally. If you know the answer to that, you
14 can answer that. Don't speculate.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know the
16 answer to that.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Have you seen documents referencing
19 people in Fisher Scientific, as you've told me
20 Tom Price's, that reference Fair Lawn that are
21 talking about something other than Fisher
22 Scientific's plant in Fair Lawn?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
24 That question is indecipherable. If you
25 understand that question --
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1 THE WITNESS: No, I don't understand
2 that question.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. About three minutes ago did you not
5 tell me that you believe Mr. Del Boca worked at
6 Fair Lawn based on what this document states?
7 A. Yes. I saw the words "Fair Lawn".
8 Q. Let me preface the next question by
9 saying, I'm not asking about Fisher Scientific
10 products specifically, okay, sold through its
11 catalog. By 1971 does this document not let
12 anybody who wants to see it at Fisher Scientific
13 know that asbestos is a dangerous -- potentially
14 dangerous substance and it can cause asbestosis
15 and lung neoplasms?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object to the
17 form. It's vague. And you can answer it
18 however you want to answer it.
19 THE WITNESS: If I understand the
20 question, I'd say how does Peter Del Boca know
21 that this product causes lung cancer. Peter Del
22 Boca to my knowledge is not a doctor or not an
23 asbestos expert or not an asbestos scientist.
24 So how does he know.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. In the second full paragraph that
2 starts "our A-908 asbestos" --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- do you have any idea where Fisher
5 Scientific would have used or handled "our A-908
6 asbestos"?
7 A. No. Because I don't even know what
8 A-908 asbestos is.
9 Q. I think this morning we talked about
10 whether asbestos-containing products were
11 manufactured by Fisher Scientific, and I'm not
12 going to ask you those questions again, because
13 I asked them ad infinitum, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Just ask your question,
16 Counsel. You don't need to preface it. Just
17 ask it.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Did you ever in your research come
20 across designations, names, types of any kind of
21 asbestos that might have either been used to
22 manufacture products by Fisher Scientific or
23 used in products sold by Fisher Scientific?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Wow, that's really
25 compound. Could you read that back? Maybe you
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1 can break them up a little bit.
2 MR. HAKLAY: No, I'm good with that.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: It's pretty broad.
4 Well, then let's read it back.
5 (Whereupon, the above-requested
6 question was then read by the reporter.)
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. You can put that
9 aside, sir. I'm going to mark this next exhibit
10 as John Reilly 2, 3/11, the date.
11 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 2, Fisher
12 Scientific Catalog 74, was then received and
13 marked for identification.)
14 MR. HAKLAY: Take your time and look at
15 this. It looks to be about eight, nine pages
16 and it's double-sided.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: It is -- it's dense. Is
18 there anything you want him to focus on?
19 MR. HAKLAY: I do but I want him to
20 make sure he knows what he's looking at before I
21 ask him about it.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Does this appear to be part of the
25 Fisher Scientific catalog from -- company
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1 catalog from 1974?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll object to the form.
3 Lacks foundation. If you know you can answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what year.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Okay. Could you look at the first
7 page?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does the first page state "Catalog 74"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Generally speaking, would that refer to
12 the year '74?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. I actually would like you to go
15 to -- I'll give you the page numbers since this
16 is obviously not --
17 MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, this is
18 excerpts of -- that you put together, Counsel,
19 of the Catalog 74 which is a cover of it?
20 MR. HAKLAY: Yes. For the record, the
21 identical excerpt that was shown to Mr. Forte,
22 but absolutely not a complete catalog.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: But you're representing
24 that these pages come from this catalog?
25 MR. HAKLAY: Yes.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. If you can go to page 674, right almost
3 at the very end. Right there on the page on
4 your left. Do you see on the top it says,
5 "Protect Hands from Burns, Caustics and
6 Contamination"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then I'm going to read this --
9 there's a picture of what appears to be a hand
10 in a glove; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then it says, "To handle hot
13 objects. Asbestos gloves 11 inches long. Fully
14 protect hands and wrists even when holding tongs
15 in front of hot furnaces. Places for thumb and
16 four fingers. Large size. Loose fitting.
17 Fleece lined. Meets OSHA requirements."
18 Did I read that correctly?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll offer an objection.
21 The document speaks for itself.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. Would you agree that Fisher sold
24 asbestos-containing gloves through its catalogs
25 in 1974?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Foundation.
2 You can answer if you know.
3 THE WITNESS: I'd agree that Fisher
4 Scientific sold laboratory gloves that were --
5 that may have contained asbestos through its
6 catalog, yes.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Okay. Well, you say "may have
9 contained asbestos". The specific description
10 here in Fisher's own catalog is asbestos gloves.
11 A. Well, then, I would probably say --
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me offer an
13 objection. Answer to your personal knowledge.
14 We don't want you to guess or speculate.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know about 1974
16 or 19 -- it says asbestos gloves, so I would
17 assume that those gloves contained some sort of
18 asbestos.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. As you sit here with these gloves
21 pictured here, do you have any idea who the
22 supplier to Fisher Scientific of those gloves
23 was?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And that's not something that actually
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1 interested you even when you were working at
2 Fisher; is that fair?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form with
4 the phrase "interested". Over my objection, if
5 you understand what's being asked, you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I would have no reason
8 whatsoever to know who did we get these gloves
9 from.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Now, the last phrase in the description
12 is "meets OSHA requirements". Do you know what
13 that phrase means?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
15 Lack of foundation. The witness didn't draft
16 the document, how would he know what it means.
17 But over my objection, if you know you can
18 answer.
19 THE WITNESS: OSHA does not approve
20 products, so if I would have seen this I would
21 have said don't say that.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. As corporate safety director, if you
24 had seen this in 1974, you would have told the
25 sales staff that they cannot write that in a
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1 catalog to consumers; is that fair?
2 A. Yes. I would say that's -- you know,
3 OSHA might --
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his
5 answer, Counsel.
6 MR. HAKLAY: I didn't actually say a
7 word, Counsel.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: You were interrupting
9 him. Go ahead.
10 THE WITNESS: OSHA might have a
11 standard that says people shouldn't burn their
12 hands and Fisher Scientific might say, well, we
13 have these gloves and if you wear them you won't
14 burn your hands. That doesn't meet OSHA
15 requirements. And if I would have seen
16 something like this, I would have said don't use
17 that kind of language.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Is it fair to say that because this
20 language is printed in this page from a catalog
21 that at the time you did not see this?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 Calls for speculation.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't remember in 1974
25 what I saw. That's a long time ago.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Let me ask you a question --
3 A. You know.
4 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead, sir.
5 A. Maybe I saw it in 1990. I don't know.
6 Q. Let me ask you a question. If you saw
7 a catalog entry or a proposed catalog entry and
8 said they shouldn't be saying that, would you
9 express that opinion to the appropriate people
10 who put together the catalogs?
11 A. I already have, sure.
12 Q. And if you did that, were they required
13 to remove the phrase that you felt was
14 inappropriate?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
16 It's an incomplete hypothetical. If you
17 understand what's being asked you can answer.
18 THE WITNESS: They didn't report to me.
19 I didn't sign their paycheck. I was in charge
20 of corporate safety. 99.9 percent of the time
21 when I asked Fisher Scientific Company to do
22 something that pertained to safety, they did it.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. I think this morning you told us that
25 there was an occasion where you saw the words
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1 you said "OSHA approved", correct?
2 A. (Witness nods his head.)
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
4 MR. HAKLAY: You have to answer out
5 loud.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 Mischaracterizing the prior testimony. If you
8 specifically recall what you testified to
9 before, you can answer.
10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. But OSHA
11 doesn't approve products, so if I saw that
12 terminology, I would say don't use that
13 terminology.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Did you testify this morning that on at
16 least one occasion you told people not to use
17 the term "OSHA approved"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you asked whoever you asked not to
20 use it, did they listen to you and stop using
21 that term?
22 A. I believe they did, but I'm not sure.
23 Q. Okay. You can put that catalog aside.
24 Just pile them up, that's fine. I'm going to
25 have this marked as John Reilly 3, 3/1/11.
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1 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 3, letter -
2 1/23/76, was then received and marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Counsel, for you. This is a one-page
6 document. The heading says "US Department of
7 Labor, Occupational Safety and Health
8 Administration, Regional Office, Suite 15" -- I
9 think it's 220, and it's at a market Street
10 address in Philadelphia, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Do you recognize Occupational Safety
13 and Health Administration as the full name for
14 what we've been calling OSHA?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it's dated 1/23/76 and it's written
17 to Mr. John R. Reilly, Corporate Safety
18 Director, Fisher Scientific Company, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. All right. Is that you?
21 A. That's me.
22 Q. And it's signed from apparently someone
23 at OSHA named David H. Rhone, R-H-O-N-E,
24 Regional Administrator, correct?
25 A. No. It's signed for David Rhone.
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1 F-O-R.
2 Q. Oh, that's what that says?
3 A. That's what I --
4 Q. Sincerely --
5 A. That's what I read it to say.
6 Q. Sincerely yours, for, and then there's
7 a signature, and then under it in print it says,
8 David H. Rhone, Regional Administrator, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Do you know who signed it for him?
11 A. No.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 Foundation.
14 Let me just get a chance to get my
15 objections out so just wait a minute to answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Sure.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. The very beginning of this letter from
19 somebody who signed on behalf of Mr. Rhone
20 references a December 3, 1974 letter that you
21 wrote, correct?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. '75, I
23 believe.
24 MR. HAKLAY: What did I say?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: '74.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Let me read it so I don't make that
3 mistake because that's twice I've gotten dates
4 wrong already. "Dear Mr. Reilly: In your
5 letter of December 3, 1975 you requested
6 clarification of the Asbestos Standard 1910.1001
7 with reference to the use of laboratory products
8 made of asbestos. In your letter you state that
9 you believe that such products are exempt from
10 the standard because their use does not liberate
11 airborne asbestos."
12 Did I read the first paragraph
13 correctly?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The document
15 speaks for itself. But you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Okay. Did you write a letter on
19 December 3, 1975 to whoever it was at the US
20 Department of Labor?
21 A. I'm assuming I did.
22 Q. In preparation for this deposition,
23 have you seen such a letter?
24 A. I may have.
25 Q. Have you seen the letter you wrote to
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1 Mr. Rhone?
2 A. I may have.
3 Q. When did you see it?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It
5 mischaracterizes his testimony. But you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: In the last week or so
8 since I've got a subpoena, I've seen some
9 correspondence. I may have seen the December
10 3rd, '75 letter that I wrote.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Do you have any memory of that letter
13 as you sit here today?
14 A. As I sit here today, I remember writing
15 OSHA concerning laboratory products and the
16 asbestos standard, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Have you seen the letter you're
18 looking at, Exhibit 3, since 1976?
19 A. I may have seen this, yes, in the last
20 week or so, yes.
21 Q. Were you shown this document this
22 morning to your knowledge?
23 A. I may have. I'm not sure.
24 Q. All right. I want to ask you about the
25 second paragraph.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Which starts with "The use of such
3 products by customers is not addressed by this
4 standard. This standard addresses workplaces
5 where employees must handle such products during
6 storage, packaging, dispensing and shipping.
7 The release and extent of release of airborne
8 fibers can only be determined by monitoring."
9 Before I ask you a question about it,
10 did I read that paragraph correctly?
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It speaks
12 for itself. But you can answer.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Okay. What is your understanding of
16 this paragraph of this letter that was written
17 to you back in 1976?
18 A. My understanding is your laboratory
19 safety products does not come under our
20 standard.
21 Q. Now, what do you mean by "your
22 laboratory safety products"?
23 A. The only two laboratory safety products
24 that I even remember in regard to asbestos were
25 gloves and a mat.
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1 Q. Okay. Fisher Scientific sold such
2 items in its catalogs?
3 A. Gloves and a mat, yes, I believe so.
4 Q. All right. What about the fume hoods,
5 what kind of product is that?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 It's vague. If you understand what is being
8 asked, if you do, you can answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I think we already talked
10 about that. There may have been fume hood
11 liners that contained asbestos particles, but
12 they have nothing to do with the laboratory
13 safety products that we're talking about because
14 those were not manufactured by us and the fume
15 hoods were.
16 And in my letter, which I don't recall
17 the language, I was only talking to this guy
18 about laboratory safety products such as gloves
19 and mats, not fume hoods.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Such as items that you bought from
22 other companies --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- and sold through your catalog?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Nevertheless, according to this letter,
2 and based on your experience in the safety
3 field, does this letter tell you that if you did
4 make fume hoods containing asbestos that they
5 would be covered by that standard?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, Counsel, I would
7 object to form. Now you're completely
8 mischaracterizing the witness's testimony. He
9 told you what his letter related to, so you're
10 asking him to speculate with an incomplete
11 hypothetical. If you understand what's being
12 asked, you can answer. But it goes well beyond
13 the document.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, fume hoods in my
15 opinion are oranges and apples compared to
16 gloves. We manufactured the fume hoods; we
17 don't manufacture the gloves. When I wrote the
18 letter I was talking about the products that we
19 don't manufacture.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Okay. In terms of the product that you
22 did manufacture, the fume hood is what I want to
23 ask you about, was that made in a Fisher
24 Scientific workplace?
25 A. We made fume hoods at one time at
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1 Indiana, Pennsylvania.
2 Q. And were those fume hoods that were
3 manufactured in your plant in Indiana,
4 Pennsylvania, were they stored, packaged,
5 dispensed and shipped by Fisher Scientific
6 employees?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
8 THE WITNESS: I would assume so.
9 MR. WILLIAMS: We don't want you to
10 assume. We want you to know what you know. Do
11 you know?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Was Indiana, Pennsylvania, that plant,
15 populated by Fisher Scientific employees?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did they manufacture the items that
18 were manufactured there at Fisher Scientific
19 employees?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did they send them to wherever they
22 needed to be sent, those products they
23 manufactured?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
25 It's vague and it calls for -- lacks foundation.
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1 But you can answer if you know the answers to
2 these questions.
3 THE WITNESS: I never saw them take a
4 fume hood and put it in the box and put the box
5 on the truck.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Who do you think did that?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
9 Calls for speculation. But you can answer if
10 you know.
11 THE WITNESS: I would assume that
12 Fisher --
13 MR. WILLIAMS: We don't want you to
14 assume. We want you to testify to what you
15 know.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Who do you think? So it's equally
19 likely to you once produced -- Fisher Scientific
20 brought in non-Fisher Scientific employees to
21 package and ship Fisher Scientific products?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object now
23 because your questions, Counsel, are becoming
24 really argumentative. You're on direct. So I'm
25 going to object to form. And you're badgering
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1 the witness at this point, you're harassing him
2 and it's really getting inappropriate. I don't
3 appreciate it.
4 MR. HAKLAY: The only one who doesn't
5 want him to answer is you, Counsel. I don't
6 know what happened during lunch but you're not
7 letting him answer a single question.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Can I finish? Can I
9 finish my objection or are you going to
10 interrupt me, too?
11 MR. HAKLAY: Take as long as you want.
12 But I'm not going to forget my question and I'm
13 not going to leave it without an answer.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: It's a ridiculous
15 question. You're asking questions that lack
16 foundation. You're asking the witness to
17 assume. We all want the witness to testify to
18 what he knows. But if you harass him and ask
19 argumentative questions, that's inappropriate on
20 direct, so I'm objecting to form.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Do you have an answer to my question,
23 sir?
24 A. I don't know who put the fume hoods in
25 a box.
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1 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that
2 during the production of fume hoods that Fisher
3 Scientific employees would have handled those
4 fume hoods during their production?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Lacks
6 foundation. You can answer if you know.
7 THE WITNESS: If they produced the fume
8 hoods then I would assume -- not assuming, if
9 they produced the fume hoods they would have
10 handled the fume hoods.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any
13 monitoring as talked about in this letter for
14 the release and extent of release of airborne
15 fibers was ever done at your Indiana,
16 Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
18 the form because you're mischaracterizing the
19 witness's testimony. This letter had nothing to
20 do with fume hoods. He's already testified to
21 that. So over my objection, if you understand
22 what's being asked you can answer it.
23 THE WITNESS: Repeat your question,
24 please.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. Do you know whether any monitoring for
2 the release and extent of release of airborne
3 fibers was ever done in your Indiana,
4 Pennsylvania manufacturing plant?
5 A. I don't know. I don't recall.
6 Q. Did you ever order any such monitoring
7 for the release and extent of release of
8 airborne fibers?
9 A. I don't recall. I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did anybody
11 else ever order the monitor -- any monitoring
12 for the release and extent of release of
13 airborne fibers at the Indiana, PA plant?
14 A. I do not know.
15 Q. Okay. We talked a little bit -- do you
16 need more water, sir? We'll get you more.
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. Are you okay to go?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. Do you believe that the
21 fact that whoever it was at OSHA informed you
22 that the standard you asked about didn't apply
23 to gloves and mats that were in your catalog
24 meant that there were no safety requirements or
25 safety concerns with regards to the gloves and
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1 the mats?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 Document speaks for itself. The question is
4 vague with regard to safety requirements or
5 concerns. But if you understand you can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm going to try to
7 answer that this way -- I believe I've answered
8 it about four or five times, I believe, already
9 this morning -- I never personally had any
10 evidence that Fisher products that were
11 manufactured elsewhere and were sold through our
12 catalog posed a health hazard, period. Not only
13 did I not have that, there was no credible
14 evidence. There was no research.
15 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. You can put that
16 aside. It looks like you already did.
17 I'm going to mark the next document as
18 John Reilly 4. 3/1/11 is the date.
19 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 4, Fisher
20 Scientific Catalog 77, was then received and
21 marked for identification.)
22 MR. HAKLAY: Here's the marked copy for
23 you, sir, and a copy for your counsel.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. And a copy for me. The cover appears
2 to say "Fisher Scientific Company Catalog 77,"
3 correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And I will represent that this is the
6 same document that was shown to Mr. Forte at his
7 deposition and it is an incomplete version
8 certainly of a 1977 catalog.
9 I'll direct you specifically and you
10 can take as much time as you need, if you need
11 it, to page -- on the bottom right of the page
12 it says 783. Obviously, we don't have the 782
13 pages, all of them, that preceded it. Here's
14 what it looks like. It's got no pictures on it
15 whatsoever. It's about halfway through.
16 A. I don't see any --
17 Q. Look on the bottom.
18 A. There we go, okay.
19 Q. Do you see a section in this catalog
20 that's entitled "For Asbestos Counting"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it appears to -- I'm sorry, I won't
23 say -- there's talk about something called a
24 phase contrast microscope that it says is a
25 "useful tool for monitoring air pollution
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1 (according to OSHA requirements ) in plants
2 using asbestos products."
3 Did I read that small portion
4 correctly?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Document
6 speaks for itself. But you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. And do you know what a phase contrast
10 microscope is?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt what's
13 stated in Fisher Scientific's catalog that it's
14 useful for monitoring air pollution in plants
15 using asbestos products?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Lacks
17 foundation. He said he doesn't know what it is.
18 The question lacks foundation. If you know the
19 answer you can tell him.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the
21 product is.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt what it
24 says it is, that it's useful for measuring air
25 pollution in plants using asbestos products?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Foundation
2 again. But if you know you can answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I might have some doubt
4 whoever wrote that language, how do they know.
5 I didn't find any other OSHA experts in Fisher
6 Scientific Company.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. What do you mean "any other OSHA
9 experts"?
10 A. Besides myself.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. So whoever wrote that, I mean where's
13 that coming from? So yes, I could doubt that.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not OSHA
15 specifically ever stated that a phase contrast
16 microscope could be used to monitor air
17 pollution where asbestos products are
18 manufactured?
19 A. I'm not sure of that. But I will say
20 this, OSHA normally doesn't tell you what kind
21 of products they used to meet their
22 requirements, including monitoring.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you or
24 anybody at Fisher Scientific that you have
25 knowledge of ever instructed anybody to monitor
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1 air pollution in Indiana, Pennsylvania using a
2 phase contrast microscope?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No, you don't know, or no, it didn't
5 happen?
6 A. To my knowledge it didn't happen.
7 Q. It was my poorly worded question, I
8 apologize. Your no could have meant two things
9 and that was my fault.
10 If you just flip over the next page,
11 which is 1022.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. On the very top left of 1022 -- by the
14 way, this is in a section that appears to be
15 "Safety Equipment", correct? At the very top
16 left of the page.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 Document speaks for itself. Lacks foundation.
19 But if you know you can answer.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Here's where I'm looking, sir. You can
22 look wherever you want obviously.
23 A. That's what it says, Safety Equipment,
24 yes.
25 Q. And when I asked you about the phase
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1 contrast microscope that appears to be that
2 page, part of the section called microscopes?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Back to page 1022, the very top item is
5 "Asbestos Gloves", correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And in that description of the asbestos
8 gloves, it again says, "meet OSHA requirements",
9 correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Just as it did in the 1974 catalog,
12 right?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
14 Lacks foundation. And it's a misstatement
15 actually. But over my objection you can answer.
16 The document speaks for itself as well.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Right?
19 A. It says, "meet OSHA requirements,"
20 right.
21 Q. It's the same phase we saw in 1974,
22 right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. There's other asbestos products listed
25 on this page; aren't there?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There's asbestos mittens, asbestos
3 finger cots and aluminum-coated asbestos gloves,
4 correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. All right. Back in 1977 did you see
7 this page, 1022?
8 A. I don't recall that. Again, I don't
9 recall dates and what I saw.
10 Q. Well, this is now the second part of a
11 catalog that we've seen together where it has
12 that same meet OSHA requirements or meets OSHA
13 requirements phrase for gloves that have
14 asbestos. No matter what they're called because
15 they state they have asbestos.
16 Do you recall whether or not you wrote
17 a memo or confronted or approached anyone about
18 this phrase in 1977?
19 A. I -- again, I don't want to -- I'm
20 going to answer that this way and -- OSHA
21 doesn't say in its standards when you're working
22 in front of a hot oven wearing a pair of asbestos
23 gloves. It doesn't say that. So it would be
24 erroneous to say these gloves meet OSHA
25 requirements. That's the wrong language.
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1 Q. Do the OSHA requirements -- excuse me,
2 do the OSHA standards at the time as you were
3 familiar with them speak about acceptable levels
4 of asbestos fiber release from products?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
6 the form. The question lacks foundation.
7 You're asking the witness to speculate about
8 regulations that aren't in front of him. If you
9 know the answer you can answer it.
10 THE WITNESS: I -- you know, I can't
11 say yes or no definite so --
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. Okay. What do you know about the OSHA
14 standards at the time you were working at Fisher
15 Scientific in the 1970s? I'm sorry, let me make
16 it a better question.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Rather broad.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. What do you know about the OSHA
20 standards as with regards to asbestos at the
21 time you were working at Fisher Scientific in
22 the 1970s?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It's still
24 rather broad. But over my objection you can
25 answer it.
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1 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm going on what I
2 think.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, we don't want you
4 to speculate.
5 THE WITNESS: I know. So I don't know.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: If you recall.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Do you believe you ever knew what the
10 OSHA standards spoke about -- the OSHA standards
11 about asbestos in the 1970s?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you saying that so many years have
14 passed that you don't want to speculate because
15 you don't remember?
16 A. Yes. I don't remember what the wordage
17 was in an OSHA standard 35 years ago, yes.
18 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. "I don't
19 know" or "I don't remember" is always an
20 acceptable answer, okay?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Counsel, you don't
22 need to coach the witness about what's
23 acceptable. Just ask your questions, okay?
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. Do you know whether in the 1970s OSHA
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1 standards as they related to asbestos included a
2 permissible amount of asbestos fibers that could
3 be released into the air from a product?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. Do you have any idea whether these
6 specific gloves in the 1977 catalog that are
7 called asbestos gloves released more or less
8 than that OSHA standard during their normal
9 usage by ultimate consumers?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
11 It's been asked and answered several times. But
12 you can answer it again.
13 THE WITNESS: I believe then, I believe
14 now, and I believe the day I die, the gloves
15 made of asbestos don't release fibers.
16 Therefore, they are no health hazard to the
17 user.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Don't release any fibers or don't
20 release asbestos fibers?
21 A. Don't release asbestos fibers.
22 Q. Do they release any fibers?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. Now
24 we're talking about an incomplete factual
25 hypothetical that is based purely on
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1 speculation. If you know specifically what's
2 being asked rather than vague generalities, you
3 can answer. But let's keep this in an actual
4 factual basis rather than just speculation.
5 Over my objection if you know what is being
6 asked of you, you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: OSHA talks about asbestos
8 fibers. They don't talk about other fibers in
9 gloves.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Do you know --
12 A. I don't even know what the size of an
13 asbestos fiber would be.
14 Q. Do you know whether these gloves which
15 were sold through a Fisher Scientific catalog in
16 1977 whether during normal usage of this glove
17 any dusting particles or fibers from these
18 gloves would be released due to their normal
19 usage by customers?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object.
21 Counsel, that's the exact same question you just
22 asked and it's been answered. But over my
23 objection I'll let him answer it again. You can
24 answer it again. But it has been asked and
25 answered. Let's not harass the witness by
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1 asking the question over and over again because
2 you don't like the response. Over my objection
3 you can answer it one more time.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe gloves
5 then, today or tomorrow release asbestos fibers.
6 Therefore, I don't believe the gloves then,
7 today or tomorrow are a health hazard to anyone
8 that wears the gloves.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. Okay. Sir, you can put that document
11 away, please.
12 When you testified that if you had seen
13 the phrase "meet or meets OSHA requirements" was
14 something you would have spoken to somebody
15 about, did you ever speak to any of your
16 superiors about the use of that phrase that you
17 eventually saw in the catalog?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Who did you speak to?
20 A. I don't recall that. The person in
21 charge of putting out the catalog.
22 Q. Did you ever speak to your superiors as
23 opposed to someone who was in charge of putting
24 out the catalog?
25 A. About safety issues, I spoke to
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1 everyone from Ben Fisher, Chairman of the Board,
2 to the janitor, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall specifically doing
4 so with regards to the phrase "meet or meets
5 asbestos -- OSHA standards --"
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Excuse me, "meet or meets OSHA
8 requirements".
9 A. Yes. I said, don't use it.
10 Q. I'm going to mark the next document as
11 John Reilly 5, date 3/1/11. There's the
12 officially marked document for you, sir. One
13 for your counsel.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
15 MR. HAKLAY: You're welcome.
16 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 5, a memo -
17 5/2/77, was then received and marked for
18 identification.)
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. This one-page document has memo head or
21 letterhead saying Central Offices/Pittsburgh,
22 Fisher Scientific Company. It appears to be to
23 a man named Phil Hunsucker, H-U-N-S-U-C-K-E-R,
24 from A.W., Anderson, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. The
25 subject is: Asbestos Sleeving Castaloy,
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1 C-A-S-T-A-L-O-Y.
2 Sir, do you see at the bottom where it
3 says "CC"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You know what "CC" means, right?
6 A. Carbon copy.
7 Q. Right. Back then they were probably
8 still using carbon copies. And there's three
9 names: Jim Philip, Jack Reilly and Walt
10 Sandvik, it's written S-A-N-D-V-I-K. Are you
11 the Jack Reilly that's referred to?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, today you were sworn in as John
14 Reilly. Is Jack a nickname that people use?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did people at Fisher Scientific call
17 you "Jack"?
18 A. Most of them, yes.
19 Q. Can you tell me who Phil Hunsucker was?
20 A. He was in marketing and sales.
21 Q. Was he the director of marketing?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Can you take a minute and read
24 that two paragraph memo to yourself.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. Does this memo refer to the Indiana,
2 Pennsylvania plant?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. It actually just says "Indiana"
5 which is the thing I said this morning, correct?
6 A. No. It says "Indiana plant" in the
7 second paragraph.
8 Q. Right. But it doesn't say
9 Pennsylvania. It just calls it Indiana. But
10 that's the only Indiana plant you know of for
11 Fisher, correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Did A.W. Anderson work in the
14 Indiana plant?
15 A. I believe he was in charge of Indiana.
16 Q. He was the head honcho there?
17 A. Yes. Among other duties. He was a
18 vice president.
19 Q. Of the whole company?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know what asbestos sleeving
22 castaloy is?
23 A. No, I don't recall that.
24 Q. Mr. Anderson speaks about competitors
25 of Fisher Scientific replacing asbestos with
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1 other products, correct?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm losing you here,
3 Counsel. Where are you looking?
4 MR. HAKLAY: In the first paragraph.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Do you know --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. He mentioned epoxy
7 sheets.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. And he talks about the first -- the
10 very first sentence talks about that some of
11 their -- one of their competitors -- let me just
12 read it. This is a silly way to do it. "We
13 have recently been alerted to some rather
14 significant orders that were placed with one of
15 our competitors for a rather large quantity of
16 quarter inch four-by-eight epoxy sheets.
17 Investigation of that discloses that several
18 national concerns have issued directives within
19 their organizations to remove from their
20 facilities all products containing asbestos. In
21 this case they are replacing the interiors of
22 fume hoods where transite is used with epoxy."
23 And so I won't interrupt myself again
24 and just ask all my questions at once, the only
25 other paragraphs reads "Regardless of a
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1 Department of Labor statement, it does not
2 appear to me to be in keeping with our Fisher
3 image to sell to a customer a product that we
4 know is potentially hazardous. Beyond that, I
5 do not wish to handle asbestos in the Indiana
6 plant in any form if there is a suitable
7 substitute. We are in the process of developing
8 a substitute for the transite used in our
9 Indiana products."
10 Did I read those two paragraphs
11 correctly, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know what Department of Labor
14 statement is referred to in the beginning of
15 that second paragraph?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you recall receiving this memo that
18 you were cc'd back on in 1977?
19 A. No.
20 Q. During your time at Fisher did you
21 generally -- was it an efficient enough
22 operation that you generally received memos that
23 you were cc'd?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
25 That's vague and calls for speculation. If you
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1 know what's being asked you can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to
5 believe that you wouldn't have received this if
6 you were cc'd on it back then?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But you
8 can answer if you know.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't have a
10 reason to believe.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay. As you've told me that
13 Mr. Anderson was the person in charge of the
14 Indiana plant, does this refresh your
15 recollection as to whether asbestos-containing
16 products were manufactured in the Indiana,
17 Pennsylvania plant?
18 A. He's saying it does.
19 Q. Okay. At the time did you in any way
20 attempt to contradict him and say, "Hey, A.W.,
21 we don't use asbestos there"?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt
24 Mr. Anderson's writing in this memo that
25 asbestos was used in products that were
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1 manufactured in the Indiana plant?
2 A. I don't doubt it. At least he felt
3 that. I don't doubt it.
4 Q. Would Mr. Anderson's duties have been
5 -- among Mr. Anderson's duties would be to know
6 what products were manufactured in the plant he
7 ran and what components made up those products?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you have known that as well as
10 him at the time or would he have known more than
11 you?
12 A. Known what?
13 Q. What was made there and what specific
14 components went into those products.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
16 About what someone else may have known. If you
17 know the answer you can answer it.
18 THE WITNESS: I didn't know every
19 product that was made in Indiana, no.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Okay. Do you see where Mr. Anderson in
22 the second paragraph says that it wouldn't be
23 keeping with the Fisher image to "sell to a
24 customer a product that we know is potentially
25 hazardous"; do you see that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it fair to say then that Fisher knew
3 that the fume hoods that contained asbestos were
4 potentially hazardous?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
6 It's not what the document says. It's a
7 mischaracterization of what the document says.
8 Over my objection, you can answer if you know.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer it
10 this way: Fisher Scientific, including
11 Mr. Anderson, were very moralistic people. It
12 was a moral company. And if they knew anything
13 was potentially hazardous to customers, they
14 would have done something about it.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Okay. Do you know -- Mr. Anderson
17 speaks about developing a substitute for the
18 asbestos transite here. Do you know how many
19 years Fisher produced fume hoods that contained
20 asbestos?
21 A. No.
22 Q. As a result of receiving this memo as a
23 carbon copy, do you recall whether or not you
24 picked up the phone and spoke to Mr. Anderson or
25 contacted him in some other way?
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1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Do you know whether you or anybody else
3 after receiving this memo ever contacted or
4 communicated with Mr. Anderson and instructed
5 him to do monitoring of asbestos release from
6 fume hoods?
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. Okay. Did you ever do it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you believe that the OSHA standards
11 that you've referred to earlier would have
12 applied to the production of asbestos-containing
13 fume hoods in your Indiana, PA plant?
14 A. If -- if a fume hood was using asbestos
15 products in its manufacture, yes, OSHA standards
16 would have applied.
17 Q. In attempting to comply with OSHA as
18 regards to the production of fume hoods in
19 Indiana, PA, do you know any other way to find
20 out whether Fisher Scientific was in compliance,
21 other than monitoring release of fibers during
22 the production process?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. How else would you --
25 A. If the material they were putting in
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1 the fume hood contained asbestos and if they
2 were cutting it, drilling it, sawing it, sure.
3 Q. Other than monitoring for release in
4 the air, how else would Fisher Scientific have
5 known whether the release of asbestos-containing
6 dust in their Indiana, PA plant exceeded OSHA
7 standards?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
9 Calls for speculation. But if you know you can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: They wouldn't have.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. And as far as you know, no monitoring
14 was done, correct?
15 A. Not that I recall.
16 Q. Okay. You can put that aside, sir.
17 Thank you.
18 How much time do we have? Why don't we
19 take a break right now. We'll take five minutes.
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
21 tape three in today's deposition and the time
22 now is 2:09.
23 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken
24 from 2:09 p.m. to 2:21 p.m.)
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
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1 beginning of tape four in today's deposition.
2 The time now is 2:21 p.m. and we are back on the
3 record.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I'm going to mark as John Reilly 6 with
8 the day 3/1/11 on it, this next document, a
9 one-page document. I'll pass you the official
10 copy.
11 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 6, a letter -
12 10/11/78, was then received and marked for
13 identification.)
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. So far I've been good about having
16 three copies of everything.
17 Sir, is this letter addressed to Fisher
18 Scientific Company from Concerned Seventh Grade
19 Science Students?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Document
21 speaks for itself.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. And does it state that it's from -- in
25 the upper right-hand corner -- Northeastern
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1 Junior High School in Manchester, PA, dated
2 October 11, 1978?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And under Northeastern Junior
5 High School, it states, Charles R. Kohler
6 K-O-H-L-E-R. Before 1978 had you ever heard of
7 Mr. Kohler?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I'm going to read the one paragraph and
10 then ask you a series of questions about this
11 document. "Dear Sir: We are a group of
12 concerned seventh grade students from
13 Northeastern Junior High School. We are curious
14 about asbestos because we will be doing several
15 experiments with asbestos pads and are very
16 concerned about the fact that asbestos may cause
17 cancer. We would like to know if you have any
18 ideas about using an alternate chemical instead
19 of asbestos. Why aren't you warning the people
20 if asbestos is dangerous? Could you possibly
21 send us information on asbestos or an alternate
22 chemical. We would really like to know if
23 you're doing anything about asbestos pads."
24 Did I read the one paragraph correctly?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Documents
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1 speaks for itself. You can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Okay. Then the -- above the -- below
5 the letterhead of Northeastern School District,
6 Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania, 17347. And above the
7 body of the typed letter itself there appear to
8 be handwritten notes, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. First it says -- and these words
11 are crossed out -- "Jim Cairns, C-A-I-R-N-S, any
12 thoughts? Al."
13 Are those the words that are crossed
14 out?
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Foundation.
16 But if you know you can answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Do you know who Jim Cairns is or
20 what --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was Jim Cairns?
23 A. He was in charge of the educational
24 materials division in Chicago.
25 Q. Okay. Was that a division that
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1 produced products, meaning manufactured, or just
2 a catalog division of the company that just sold
3 products from others?
4 A. To the best of my recollection, just
5 sold mostly products from catalogs from others.
6 Not real pure manufacturing.
7 Q. In any case, to the extent this letter
8 refers to asbestos pads, I think you've already
9 informed us that those were not products
10 manufactured by Fisher Scientific but rather
11 sold through a catalog, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And underneath the crossed
14 out handwriting is more handwriting. It says in
15 all caps, "Jack Reilly" and then in script, "How
16 do we answer this? Appreciate your expert
17 advice. Thanks. Al Heidrich, H-E-I-D-R-I-C-H."
18 Did I pronounce his name right? Is it
19 Heidrich?
20 A. I'm not sure. Heidrich. Heidrich.
21 Q. Did you know Al Heidrich?
22 A. I know the name.
23 Q. Do you know what he did back in 1978 at
24 Fisher Scientific?
25 A. Specifically, no.
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1 Q. Did you in the course of your ordinary
2 dealings with him have any kind of -- I'm sorry,
3 did you in the course of your duties as
4 corporate safety director have contact on any
5 kind of a regular basis with Al Heidrich?
6 A. Not regular. Probably when I went to
7 EMD in Chicago I'd deal with him.
8 Q. EMD was one of your manufacturing
9 plants, correct, the educational one?
10 A. It was an educational materials
11 location.
12 Q. Okay. It was the headquarters of that
13 division, not a manufacturing plant?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I apologize, that's what you told me
16 this morning.
17 Do you recall receiving this letter
18 with the note written to you, Jack Reilly, in
19 1978?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you seen this document in the last
22 two weeks?
23 A. I believe I may have when I looked at
24 some documents, yes.
25 Q. And did you get a chance to read the
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1 entire one paragraph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you have any memory of anything that
4 relates in any way to this letter or this
5 request from these concerned seventh grade
6 science students?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Then that may make the
9 answers easy, but I have to ask some questions
10 anyway.
11 Do you know how long after October 11,
12 1978, when this is dated, that Al Heidrich
13 referred this letter to you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Before 1978 of October 11th of that
16 year, had you ever received or been made aware
17 of similar letters from school kids?
18 A. No.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
20 Lack of foundation. Assumes facts.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. The handwriting from Al Heidrich to
23 you, Jack Reilly, says, "Appreciate your expert
24 advice." In the body of this letter, the typed
25 body, do you see anything that would require
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1 expert advice from you?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. The
3 question's vague. Lacks foundation. Assumes
4 facts. If you understand what's being asked.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm going to try to
6 answer it this way -- I've said this before I'll
7 say it again -- I don't believe asbestos pads
8 caused a health hazard or could cause a health
9 hazard.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Now, I'm about to ask you something
12 that's going to be objected to. Did you ever
13 have a discussion with Mr. Heidrich where he
14 explained to you why he referred this to you?
15 A. I don't remember that, no.
16 Q. I asked a better question than I
17 thought I asked. That's the first one.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Got to keep you
19 guessing.
20 MR. HAKLAY: That's okay.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Nothing objectionable
22 about that, Counsel.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Were you aware before October of 1978
25 that Fisher Scientific marketed and sold
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1 asbestos-containing pads?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you know that Fisher
4 Scientific had marketed and sold gauze pads with
5 asbestos centers that were used in educational
6 places by such people as science students?
7 A. I believe I answered that before. I
8 only recall asbestos gloves and asbestos pads.
9 Q. Okay. When you got this letter do you
10 know whether or not you spoke to anyone about
11 what's written in this letter?
12 A. No, I don't know that specifically.
13 But I would have.
14 Q. Who do you think you would have spoken
15 to?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to object
17 and caution you not to speculate. But to the
18 extent you have a recollection, please give it.
19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have a
20 recollection.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Okay. Was your previous answer that
23 you believe you would have based on anything
24 other than what you believe your general
25 practice to be generally back then?
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1 A. I'm a father and grandfather, I love
2 children, I think they're God's greatest
3 creation, and if I would have received this
4 letter from a group of concerned students, I
5 would have done something.
6 Q. Okay. Are you -- I appreciate your
7 appreciation for children and grandchildren.
8 Are you saying that you don't believe you
9 received this?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
11 the form. He just testified he didn't recall.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Okay. A moment ago you stated that
15 because of your love for children and
16 grandchildren and the treasure that they are on
17 this earth that you would have done something if
18 you received this.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Do you know whether you did anything?
21 A. No, I don't because I don't recall
22 receiving it.
23 Q. Okay. You're just saying if you did
24 remember and had you had received it, then you
25 would have done something?
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1 A. Yes.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let me object to
3 the form. It's vague. "Done something" is
4 vague. If you understand what's being asked
5 when he says "done something", you can answer.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Do you believe that these are questions
8 -- excuse me, as a safety director of Fisher
9 Scientific do you believe that these are
10 questions that are impossible to answer for
11 these students?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you believe that these are fairly
14 simple questions that can be addressed to --
15 answers can be addressed to these kids?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You can put that one to the side. I
18 might ask you to look at it again, but you can
19 put it on the pile for now.
20 I'm going to mark as John Reilly 7 on
21 3/1/11 another one-page document.
22 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 7, a letter -
23 11/6/78, was then received and marked for
24 identification.)
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. There's a copy for your counsel.
2 Is this a letter from you on Fisher
3 Scientific Company letterhead dated November 6,
4 1978?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it addressed to OSHA?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you seen this letter in the last
9 two weeks?
10 A. I may have.
11 Q. Do you recall whether you saw it in the
12 last two weeks?
13 A. I think I probably did.
14 Q. Okay. And it's addressed to
15 "Gentlemen". I'll read it to be fair to you.
16 "I would appreciate your clarification of the
17 asbestos standard, Subpart Z, 1910.1001. I
18 interpret the standard to apply to any process
19 involving the release of airborne asbestos
20 fibers. What are your comments concerning
21 products that are made of asbestos? I am
22 speaking about certain laboratory products such
23 as gloves, finger cots, mats, fire blankets,
24 fume hood liners, gaskets, et cetera. These
25 products do not ordinarily liberate airborne
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1 fibers, however, age and usage can cause
2 dusting.
3 My real question is, do these and
4 related-type products come under 1910.1001?
5 Thank you very much for your cooperation. Very
6 truly yours, John R. Reilly, Corporate Safety
7 Director."
8 Did I read that correctly before I ask
9 you questions about it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall writing this letter to
12 OSHA?
13 A. I recall writing -- having
14 correspondence with OSHA pertaining to asbestos.
15 Q. Do you recall specifically this letter?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you speak in this letter
18 about processes involving the release of
19 airborne asbestos fibers and then state that
20 you're talking about certain laboratory
21 products. Now we've already seen gloves and
22 finger cots in what you call a catalog, right?
23 A. Uh-hum.
24 Q. Yes?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. It's just one of those rules. Are mats
2 the same kind of product you're talking about
3 that you sold through the catalog?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you hadn't mentioned fire
6 blankets. Does that refresh your recollection
7 as to whether Fisher Scientific marketed and
8 sold asbestos-containing fire blankets through
9 its catalogs?
10 A. We sold fire blankets through our
11 catalog. Whether they contained asbestos, I do
12 not recall. I do not know.
13 Q. Okay. All you know is whatever it says
14 here?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And it says gaskets. Do you
17 know whether Fisher Scientific at that time sold
18 through its catalogs asbestos-containing --
19 A. I don't recall what gaskets are.
20 Q. -- gaskets. Okay. Got to wait for me
21 to finish is all I'm trying to say.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him get his question
23 out.
24 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. Your answer is fine. Did we get all
2 that? Correct, sir, that's what you said?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But in this list of what you've
5 described as laboratory products earlier today
6 like gloves or pads, it also says fume hood
7 liners.
8 Now, I thought that earlier today and
9 this afternoon you had differentiated between
10 the laboratory products and the fume hood liners
11 that were produced in your Indiana, PA plant?
12 A. I did.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
14 the form. It's a mischaracterization of his
15 testimony. It's talking about fume hoods
16 before. He's referring to fume hood liners in
17 this letter. Over my objection, if you
18 understand what you're being asked.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Is this letter inconsistent in any way
21 with what you said earlier today?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 That's vague. If you understand you can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: If I understand you
25 correctly, I did not address fume hoods earlier
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1 when I talked about gloves and mats.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Right. We did talk about fume hoods
4 with regard to your Indiana, PA plant, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And we did not long ago see a document
7 where Mr. Anderson who was in charge of that
8 plant talked about not wanting to use asbestos
9 in products made in that plant anymore, correct?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
11 the form. That's a mischaracterization of that
12 document. If you understand exactly what's
13 being asked, you can answer it.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, I saw a document
15 that Bill Anderson raised some concerns.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Okay. And referred to the usage of
18 asbestos during the production processes in
19 Indiana, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. All right. When you wrote fume hood
22 liners in this letter to OSHA, what were you
23 talking about?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Okay. It's just been too long?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. To this point -- I'm sorry,
3 the previous -- the letter from the school
4 children in Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania from
5 Northeastern Junior High School was dated as we
6 saw October 11, 1978. This is now November 6,
7 1978, 26 days later, using October as a 31 day
8 month. To this point, do you have any memory as
9 to whether anybody had answered what you agreed
10 were the straightforward questions from those
11 children?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. Do you know whether you had answered
16 the letter from the children as of November 6th?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. In the first paragraph -- in the first
19 paragraph, the last time after you mentioned all
20 the products, the gloves, et cetera, the fume
21 hood liners, et cetera, you wrote "these
22 products do not ordinarily liberate airborne
23 fibers, however, age and usage can cause
24 dusting."
25 Now, what did you mean by "age and
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1 usage"?
2 A. That's not my language. That's not
3 Jack Reilly when I look at that. First of all,
4 I never ever used the word "dusting".
5 Q. Do you know --
6 A. OSHA doesn't use the word "dusting".
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Just let him finish his
8 answer, Counselor.
9 MR. HAKLAY: I stopped.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Don't point at him.
11 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on, sir. I'm not
12 pointing at him.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: You are pointing at him
14 right now.
15 MR. HAKLAY: You go ahead, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: I believe that someone in
17 marketing infused their language with my letter.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. Is there a signature on this
20 letter?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Whose signature is that?
23 A. Mine.
24 Q. Does that appear to be an actual
25 signature that you placed?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It looks like yours?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As corporate safety director, were you
5 responsible for anything that went out under
6 your signature?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So even if you got input from whoever
9 you wanted to get input from, a final product
10 with your signature was your responsibility,
11 correct?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
13 Responsibility is vague and undefined in your
14 question. If you understand what's being asked,
15 you can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: The responsibility of
17 this letter rests with me.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. That is what I was asking, thank
20 you.
21 And when it says "age and usage can
22 cause dusting", do you know what the word
23 "dusting" means regardless of whether OSHA ever
24 uses it?
25 A. No. Because I never used it.
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1 Q. Do you know whether or not asbestos
2 gloves, to use an example we've used a lot
3 today, with age can crack, deteriorate and
4 release dust and fibers?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
6 Incomplete factual hypothetical. But over my
7 objection, if you understand you can answer.
8 I'll state it's asked and answered several times
9 already. But over my objection, you can answer
10 it.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't think gloves
12 release asbestos fibers.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Do you believe that gloves with age and
15 usage can deteriorate such that they released
16 something that looks like dust?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: It's asked and answered.
18 It's the exact question you just asked now. But
19 you can answer it again.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm not an asbestos
21 expert. I don't know what gloves would do if
22 you cut them in half or chewed on them or jumped
23 on them.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel, let him finish.
25 THE WITNESS: And dusting is not my
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1 language.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Okay. In this letter that went out
4 under your signature that says dusting, please
5 let me preface the question, I'm not talking
6 about unnatural actions like cutting something
7 in half, I'm talking about in the ordinary use
8 of asbestos-containing gloves for their intended
9 purpose to be worn by people on their hands,
10 over time do you know whether any dust, no
11 matter what it's made of, would come off of
12 those gloves as a result of deterioration or the
13 natural process of it being older?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Let me get
15 my objection out.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Incomplete factual
18 hypothetical. Vague. Without foundation. If
19 you understand what's being asked and -- asked
20 and answered again. But you can answer it now.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. Have you ever reviewed in your review
24 of whatever literature you reviewed relating to
25 asbestos any studies relating to release of any
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1 kind of dust from the ordinary usage of
2 asbestos-containing gloves?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Vague.
4 Witness has already said he doesn't understand
5 the word "dust". But over my objection, if you
6 know what's being asked you can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: There was no literature
8 to my knowledge. No research, no statements, no
9 publicity, no books. No anything under release
10 of fibers or dust from asbestos gloves.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Okay. Do you recognize that sentence
13 that starts "these products"? The last sentence
14 of the first paragraph that we're just
15 discussing part of. Do you recognize any of
16 that sentence as having been your writing?
17 A. It appears not to be my way of
18 thinking, my way of writing, my way of
19 communicating.
20 Q. When you say -- I don't know if you
21 were guessing -- you will tell me -- when you
22 say it appears to be a collaboration or you got
23 input from someone in marketing, did I get that
24 correctly?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Do you know who you would have or who
2 you did confer with on the marketing side of
3 Fisher Scientific before writing this letter?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Would you ordinarily care what
6 marketing thought about letters to and from
7 OSHA?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
9 That's vague. But if you understand you can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: If they understood
12 something in the marketing arena which I didn't,
13 I'd listen to their input, whether I was writing
14 the letter to OSHA or to Judge Judy.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Well, do you believe that a marketing
17 person would have more knowledge of what does or
18 doesn't happen to the gloves they market with
19 age and usage?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 This is all based on speculation without any
22 foundation. If you know, if you have personal
23 knowledge, you can tell to it. If you don't,
24 don't guess or speculate.
25 THE WITNESS: I have no real knowledge
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1 of that.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Okay. All you know is it fair to say
4 is that whether or not you conferred with anyone
5 from marketing or anyone else, you included this
6 sentence about age and usage can cause dusting
7 in a letter you sent to OSHA, correct?
8 A. I included that sentence, yes.
9 Q. Okay. You can put that one aside on
10 top of the other ones. I'm going to mark the
11 next exhibit as John Reilly 8 with today's date
12 3/1/11 on it.
13 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 8, a memo -
14 11/22/78, was then received and marked for
15 identification.)
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. There's your copy, Mr. Williams.
18 There's one for you. It appears to be an
19 interoffice memo from within the Central
20 Offices/Pittsburgh Scientific Company, correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. It's to Al Heidrich from Jack Reilly-CO
23 dated November 22, 1978. Is that you, the Jack
24 Reilly referred to there?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. What does the "CO" stand for?
2 A. Company -- corporate offices.
3 Q. Okay. And the subject is the EMD
4 Catalog-OSHA Terminology. EMD catalog you've
5 already told us is the educational materials
6 division, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And it says, "Dear Al". This is the
9 same Al that handwrote the note to you on the
10 letter from the school kids, correct?
11 A. Repeat that, please.
12 Q. It's the same Al that handwrote the
13 note to you on the letter from the school kids?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. "Dear Al: Per our recent
16 telephone conversations, we legally cannot use
17 the words 'OSHA approved' in any printed
18 material, and for the record, neither can our
19 competition. OSHA does not approved products,
20 and, in fact, we could be fined by the Federal
21 Trade Commission for an unfair trade practice.
22 I am specifically referring to the asbestos mat
23 shown on page 1071 of your 79 catalog.
24 I also noticed the language, 'in full
25 compliance with OSHA' on page 1016, catalog
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1 Number 10-027-20.
2 Al, we can effectively use OSHA as a
3 marketing tool, however, we must be careful with
4 our advertising and wording. Please let me work
5 with you on all future safety literature.
6 Regards, Jack."
7 Did I read that correctly for the
8 record?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Do you recall writing this memo
11 back in 1978?
12 A. Not this particular memo, but I recall,
13 as I mentioned earlier about the terminology,
14 OSHA approved is a no-no.
15 Q. Okay. And you've told us this morning
16 you recall telling someone about it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know of any other documents that
19 like this show you telling someone about it?
20 A. Not that I recall.
21 Q. All right. Is this the kind of thing
22 you were thinking of this morning when you said
23 you recall writing things like that or talking
24 to people about things like that?
25 A. I recall talking to people and writing
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1 to people about the terminology "OSHA approved"
2 and "meets OSHA requirements", yes.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know -- to your
4 knowledge, by this date, November 22nd, 1978,
5 had anybody at Fisher Scientific written back to
6 those school children in Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania
7 and answered what you called their simple
8 questions?
9 A. I do not recall that.
10 Q. Is the fact that -- would wire gauze
11 with asbestos center pads that would be used by
12 school children be part of the educational
13 materials division?
14 A. Probably, yes. Yes.
15 Q. What connection, if any, is there
16 between the fact that a letter from school
17 children was forwarded on to you by Al Heidrich
18 and the fact that you were now writing Al about
19 using -- about the EMD catalog in OSHA
20 terminology?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Assumes facts
22 that there's any connection. Over my objection,
23 if you know.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't think there's any
25 connection.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. You think those two instances are
3 unconnected to each other?
4 A. Separate issues.
5 Q. You just happened to see the '79
6 catalog and felt the need to write to Al, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I saw you go like that, but she needs
9 to hear it.
10 Do you recall whether or not by
11 November 22nd you were still in contact with
12 anybody regarding responding to these school
13 children?
14 A. No, I don't recall.
15 Q. If you could take out -- that's number
16 -- back to number 6 from the kids. The kids
17 write that they're concerned about the fact that
18 asbestos may cause cancer. Do you see that,
19 sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Where are you reading
22 from? I don't see it.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. On the third and fourth line. What
25 would be the straightforward answer you would
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1 give to those children?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 Assumes facts. Calls for speculation. But over
4 my objection, you can answer. It's been asked
5 and answered several times.
6 THE WITNESS: They don't cause cancer.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Asbestos generally or the gauze mats --
9 A. What they're speaking about does not
10 cause cancer.
11 Q. Okay. What would you have written to
12 these children to their request that they would
13 like to know if you have any ideas about using
14 an alternate chemical instead of asbestos?
15 A. If I answered those children, I would
16 have said these pads do not cause cancer.
17 However, I will look into your request of an
18 alternate product.
19 Q. And when they ask why aren't you
20 warning the people if asbestos is dangerous,
21 what would you have told him?
22 A. It doesn't cause cancer so it's not
23 dangerous.
24 Q. When they ask for information on
25 asbestos or an alternate chemical, would you
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1 have sent some to them?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 This is without any foundation. It's based on
4 speculation. If you have a specific
5 recollection of whether you did that, you can
6 testify to it, but don't speculate.
7 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not going to
8 speculate.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. You said that all these questions were
11 simple and wouldn't be hard to answer these
12 children, correct?
13 A. I didn't say they were simple. I said
14 that this product that these children are
15 talking about does not cause cancer.
16 Q. When I asked you about the questions
17 the children were asking, you said that they
18 were straightforward and could be answered,
19 correct?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It doesn't cause
22 cancer.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Asked and answered.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. If you would have answered these
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1 children, would you have sent them information
2 on asbestos as they required -- as they
3 requested?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 It's based on speculation without any foundation
6 and fact. If you have a specific recollection
7 of doing it, you can testify to it, but don't
8 guess.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm not guessing. I
10 would have said these -- this product does not
11 cause cancer, but per your request I am sending
12 you information on an alternative.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Okay. And in the last sentence they
15 say they would really like to know if you're
16 doing anything about asbestos pads. What reply
17 would you give to the children about that?
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. Without any
19 foundation. Vague. Calls for speculation. If
20 you know you can answer.
21 THE WITNESS: Dear Children: It
22 doesn't cause cancer. However, I share your
23 concern and I'll look into some alternatives for
24 you.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. Okay. That did not take you very long
2 here 33 years later to come up with. Do you
3 believe it would have been that easy to write
4 that letter back in 1978?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
7 That's argumentative.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Do you believe that the children
10 merited a response back in 1978?
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
12 Argumentative. Assumes facts. No foundation.
13 Over my objection, you can answer if you have a
14 specific recollection.
15 THE WITNESS: I personally believe that
16 any time you ask me something in writing, you
17 deserve an answer whether you're out on a limb
18 or not. You deserve an answer.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. When Al Heidrich asked you -- that he
21 would appreciate how do we answer this,
22 appreciate your expert advice, did you tell him
23 to answer it the way you just told me you would
24 answered it?
25 A. I don't recall this letter.
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1 Q. Okay. All right. That's fair. That's
2 fine. You can put that back where it belongs
3 and you can put those on top of it, sir. I'm
4 going to mark this as John Reilly 9, 3/1/11.
5 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 9, a memo -
6 11/28/78, was then received and marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. This appears to be a one-page
10 interoffice memo from the Central Offices of
11 Pittsburgh of the Fisher Scientific Company to
12 Joel Fontaine, F-O-N-T-A-I-N-E, from Jack Reilly
13 at the Central Offices dated 11/28/1978. The
14 subject is Asbestos Products.
15 Is that you, Jack Reilly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is Joel Fontaine?
18 A. He was in marketing.
19 Q. Do you know where he was in marketing?
20 A. No. Maybe Pittsburgh. But no.
21 Q. I'm going to read the very short memo
22 and then ask you a series of questions and then
23 move on to the next one. "Dear Joel: Per our
24 recent telephone conversation, the following
25 comments are related to the current status of
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1 asbestos products: One, we are both a
2 manufacturer and a distributor of asbestos
3 products; two, attached is correspondence
4 between myself and OSHA concerning asbestos,
5 laboratory products. Also, I wrote to OSHA for
6 an update on November 6, 1978; three, we are
7 currently conducting a study to determine the
8 feasibility of continuing or discontinuing the
9 manufacture and/or distribution of products that
10 contain asbestos. Regards, Jack."
11 Did I read that correctly before I ask
12 you questions about it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall authoring this memo?
15 A. This particular memo to Joel, no. But
16 I do recall addressing the subject of
17 discontinuance.
18 Q. Is that your signature there at the
19 bottom that says "Jack"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you wrote that Fisher Scientific
22 was a manufacturer of asbestos products, what
23 were you referring to?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
25 He's already indicated he doesn't recall writing
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1 the document. But if you have a specific
2 recollection you can answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific
4 recollection. I only have conjecture.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. We've seen some evidence from
7 Mr. Anderson of asbestos use in products
8 manufactured in Indiana, PA. Do you know of any
9 other manufacturing facilities owned by Fisher
10 Scientific where asbestos might have been used?
11 A. No.
12 Q. This is now almost two months after the
13 children dated their letter that was forwarded
14 to you by Al Heidrich. Do you know whether or
15 not anyone answered these children by November
16 28, 1978?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object. It
18 assumes facts that the letter you're referring
19 to from the children have anything to do with
20 Reilly Exhibit 9. But over my objection, you
21 can answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't have any
23 recollection, no.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. As a manufacturer of asbestos products,
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1 did the OSHA -- did the then existing OSHA
2 standards apply to Fisher Scientific?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
4 Vague. If you know what's being asked you can
5 answer it.
6 THE WITNESS: If we manufactured a
7 product that contained asbestos, certainly we
8 would have to comply with the OSHA asbestos
9 standard.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. All right. Have you become aware at
12 any time since then until today of any steps the
13 safety department or any other part of Fisher
14 Scientific took to see whether their
15 manufactured products were in compliance with
16 then existing OSHA standards?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 It's vague. It's unlimited in time.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't answer
20 that. I don't know.
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Did you take any steps to ensure that
23 the products manufactured -- excuse me, did you
24 take any steps to ensure that the asbestos
25 products manufactured by Fisher Scientific as of
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1 November 28, 1978 were in compliance with then
2 existing OSHA standards?
3 A. Specifically, I do not recall.
4 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object. It
5 assumes facts and it's vague.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Do you know of any steps taken by
8 anybody other than yourself as of November 28,
9 1978 to ensure that Fisher Scientific was in
10 compliance with then existing OSHA standards
11 with regards to its manufacture of asbestos
12 products?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection. But you
14 can answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Specifically, no.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Can you think of anything that would
18 refresh your recollection or lead you to
19 discover documents or other evidence that might
20 show that you or anyone else took any steps to
21 ensure that Fisher Scientific was in compliance
22 with then existing OSHA standards with regards
23 to its manufacture of asbestos products?
24 A. At this point in time, no.
25 Q. Okay. This document refers to a
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1 November 6 letter, so let's leave that aside
2 because we looked at that.
3 The conducting of a study to determine
4 the feasibility of continuing or discontinuing
5 the manufacture and/or distribution of products
6 that contained asbestos, when did that -- when
7 did you first learn about the study?
8 A. I can't answer that specifically. I
9 can only say that I around this time or earlier
10 thought that we should discontinue selling
11 products that are not manufactured by us that
12 contain asbestos. Don't sell them.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. Because the future headaches of that
15 adverse publicity, of frivolous lawsuits, of
16 tons of correspondence of hoopla, of clamor and I
17 could go on and on. It's not worth it.
18 Asbestos then was like green is today.
19 Everybody's on the bandwagon. Let's get out of
20 the business and put those headaches to bed.
21 Q. Do you know what mesothelioma is?
22 A. I believe it is a form of cancer.
23 Q. Do you know what the causes of
24 mesothelioma are?
25 A. I believe it is asbestos.
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1 Q. Had you ever heard of mesothelioma when
2 you were a corporate safety director in 1978?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. Okay. In what context had you heard of
5 it?
6 A. Through my research.
7 Q. What research was that?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. It's been
9 asked and answered multiple times. Over my
10 objection, you can answer.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. I'll make a better question. What
13 specifically do you recall reviewing that
14 mentioned mesothelioma?
15 A. Research material. I mean I can't tell
16 you whether it was occupational hazards or
17 chemical news or the insurance newsletter or
18 Western Pennsylvania but --
19 Q. Since you had seen materials in 1978,
20 was Fisher Scientific by that time aware that
21 asbestos exposure could cause mesothelioma?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
23 That question is vague and undefined. If you
24 understand specifically what's being asked, you
25 can answer.
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1 THE WITNESS: I was aware at that time
2 that if products released airborne fibers that
3 were inhaled and ingested in the quantity set by
4 scientists that there was a possibility of
5 cancer.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Does that possibility of cancer include
8 the possibility of mesothelioma?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
10 There's no foundation. Calls for expert witness
11 testimony. If you know the answers to these
12 questions you can answer them, but don't
13 speculate.
14 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not an
15 asbestos expert. I believe mesothelioma is a
16 form of cancer.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. So yes.
20 Q. Okay. Were you the person with the
21 most working knowledge of asbestos back in 1978
22 at Fisher Scientific?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. So to the extent that you were not or
2 are not an expert, Fisher Scientific to your
3 knowledge didn't employ any experts in the
4 subject of asbestos specifically?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
6 Calls for speculation. If you know you can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm going to say again,
9 we wouldn't hire an expert in the form of
10 products that we distributed like gloves because
11 they didn't cause cancer.
12 BY MR. HAKLAY:
13 Q. Okay. And as corporate safety director
14 you didn't believe that Fisher Scientific
15 required expertise beyond yours to reach that
16 conclusion or to verify that conclusion that
17 none of the products you distributed or made
18 caused cancer?
19 A. That's --
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me get my objection
21 in. Other than everything he's testified to in
22 terms of all the people he talked to and writing
23 the US government, other than those people, you
24 can answer the question.
25 THE WITNESS: There was nobody in the
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1 world that I knew of that would say or write
2 laboratory products such as gloves containing
3 asbestos caused cancer. No, they wouldn't
4 because there was no credible evidence. In
5 fact, there was no evidence, period.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today how
8 far back the research went that you might have
9 reviewed that showed a link between asbestos
10 exposure and mesothelioma?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, I asked you about 1978. When did
13 you conclude for yourself that based on what you
14 had reviewed, asbestos exposure could cause
15 cancer?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Can you just read that
17 back I missed it?
18 (Whereupon, the above-requested
19 question was then read by the reporter.)
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
21 the form of the question. It's vague and
22 undefined in terms of asbestos and in what
23 context. And it assumes facts not in evidence.
24 If you understand what's being asked, you can
25 answer.
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1 THE WITNESS: Whenever the experts had
2 available literature, the experts that said
3 certain airborne fibers could cause cancer,
4 that's when I became aware of it.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Okay. Well, before 1972 when you went
7 to Fisher Scientific did you ever read any
8 literature on asbestos and potential harm it may
9 or may not cause to humans?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you begin doing so upon your
12 employment in 1972?
13 A. I began when the expert testimony came
14 out. And I don't know what year that was.
15 Q. Okay. Is it your belief that before
16 the 1970s there was not what you call expert
17 testimony regarding the dangers of contracting
18 cancer from exposure to airborne asbestos
19 fibers?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Mischaracterization.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Okay. You already put that document
25 aside so you don't have to. How much time do I
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1 have left? Are you willing to go another 20
2 minutes before we take a break?
3 A. I'm okay.
4 Q. Okay. Great. I'm going to mark John
5 Reilly 10, dated 3/1/11.
6 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 10, a memo -
7 12/4/78, was then received and marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. For you, Counsel. This is entitled
11 "Interdepartmental Communication, Fisher
12 Scientific Company", date December 4, 1978 to
13 Brett Harrison at Indiana from Jim Cenname?
14 A. Cenname.
15 Q. It's an M, thank you, C-E-N-N-A-M-E.
16 Of Indiana?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And the subject is Asbestos.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And for the record there are three
21 people carbon copied at the bottom and none of
22 them are Mr. Reilly.
23 Who was Mr. Harrison, did you know
24 that?
25 A. Jim Cenname's boss.
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1 Q. Okay. Who was Jim Cenname?
2 A. He was in charge of Indiana.
3 Q. Was that after Mr. Anderson?
4 A. I'm not sure. You know, people come
5 and go.
6 Q. Did they have the same job, though,
7 Mr. Anderson and Mr. Cenname?
8 A. No. Mr. Anderson was higher up. He
9 had other responsibilities. Jim Cenname was in
10 charge of Indiana.
11 Q. And Brett Harrison was his boss, you
12 said?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was he also stationed or working out of
15 Indiana?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Okay. Other than the fact that it says
18 it's Brett Harrison at Indiana, you have no
19 memory?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you seen this document in the last
22 couple of weeks?
23 A. Not to my knowledge. I may have. I
24 don't remember that. It doesn't look familiar
25 to me.
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1 Q. Do you know if you saw this document in
2 1978 or so?
3 A. No, I don't know that.
4 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you: As
5 the corporate safety director, would you -- is
6 this -- why don't you take a look at it before I
7 ask you any questions because it's not one
8 paragraph.
9 A. Okay, I read it.
10 Q. The reason I'm directing this document
11 to you, the very first line says "Attached is
12 correspondence from Jack Reilly concerning the
13 use of asbestos in our products. Jack has asked
14 me to establish a list of all products which
15 include asbestos in some shape or form." And
16 then it says that "Carl Hvozda, H-V-O-Z-D-A, has
17 completed this list and it is attached."
18 Do you recall asking Jim Cenname to
19 compile a list of all products which contain
20 asbestos in some shape or form?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. Even after seeing this
23 memo, does that refresh your recollection or you
24 still don't recall doing so?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Asked and
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1 answered.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Okay. There's a number one there and
5 it says, "Generally speaking, I have reviewed
6 the list and established the following
7 preliminary thoughts," and then it states, "The
8 use of asbestos in our instruments is confined
9 to approximately 21 products and falls into six
10 general categories. The categories are: A,
11 asbestos coated wire; B, small plates or blocks
12 of transite used as heat resistant stand-offs;
13 C, asbestos coated material such as cardboard or
14 aluminum foil as a heat shield; D, door
15 gasketing which is woven asbestos cloth; E,
16 asbestos tape with adhesive backing; F, large
17 sheets of transite or flexboard used in our
18 furniture."
19 Whether or not you recall asking
20 anybody to compile a list, do you recall
21 receiving a list from anybody?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. As you look at these six general
24 categories as they're described in this memo,
25 did Fisher Scientific manufacture and/or
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1 distribute products within these six categories?
2 A. Wire, I don't know. Blocks, I don't
3 know. Aluminum foil, I don't know. Door
4 gasketing, I don't know. Asbestos tape, I don't
5 know. The large sheets of transite we've
6 already covered that in the fume hoods.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. So that's the only one of the six that
9 ring a bell.
10 Q. Okay. And to be fair you've already
11 testified that it wasn't necessarily your job to
12 know every single product that was sold in the
13 catalogs. You were the safety person, not
14 marketing, correct?
15 A. That's correct. Plus, it would be damn
16 near impossible.
17 Q. Because there's thousands and
18 thousands --
19 A. And people could be selling you
20 products that contained asbestos that didn't
21 tell you.
22 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the
23 veracity of this list as compiled in 1978 of
24 asbestos-containing products?
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. No
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1 foundation. Assumes facts. Calls for this
2 witness to speculate. If you know you can
3 answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Okay. The first full paragraph after
7 that list of 1 A to F says, "Asbestos is a
8 problem we have been avoiding for a number of
9 years now."
10 Now, do you have knowledge of what Jim
11 Cenname meant when he wrote that?
12 A. No.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to object
14 because -- to the foundation of this question
15 because it doesn't relate to products that
16 Fisher Scientific distributed but did not
17 manufacture. The memo is limited to certain
18 products that Fisher manufactured. Over my
19 objection, you can respond.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. I think you already did. You said no,
22 correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Do you believe in 1978
25 asbestos, as it's written here, was a problem
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1 that Fisher Scientific was avoiding for a number
2 of years now?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. And I
5 would have chided Cenname.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. If you remembered seeing this you would
8 have --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Why would you have chided him?
11 A. It's a poor word "avoiding" because we
12 haven't avoided anything about asbestos. We
13 wrote OSHA, we talked to customers. I wrote a
14 memo, let's consider discontinuing them. That's
15 not avoiding.
16 Q. What part does you talked to customers
17 have in that list?
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. That list you just gave of the things
21 that you did.
22 A. Well, we got a letter from school
23 children, somebody answered them.
24 Q. Okay. This is now two months minus two
25 days from the October -- I'm sorry, it is now --
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1 from October 11th to December 4th of 1978. Do
2 you know whether as of December 4th anybody had
3 written back to those school children to answer
4 those questions?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
6 the form. It assumes facts that that letter has
7 anything to do with this December 4th, '78 memo.
8 If you have any specific knowledge of a
9 connection, you can testify to it.
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: But don't assume.
12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. Do you know whether as of December 4,
15 1978 anybody had written back to the children
16 from their letter of October 11th, 1978?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. Okay. Other than the letter from the
19 children, what other -- what else are we
20 referring to, if anything, when you said "we
21 talked with customers" when you responded as to
22 how you weren't avoiding asbestos, it wasn't a
23 problem you were avoiding?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
25 It's been asked and answered. They talked to a
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1 lot of folks. But if you want to answer it
2 again, you may.
3 THE WITNESS: I talked to customers
4 continuously, either on the telephone, in
5 person, or giving workshops -- safety workshops
6 to the customers. If any questions came up
7 regarding asbestos, I would have addressed them.
8 I wrote OSHA concerning asbestos. Avoiding is a
9 very poor word. We did everything but avoid.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. While you were reading documents after
12 you got to Fisher Scientific literature,
13 whatever you read, concerning asbestos, did you
14 read any documents that talked about something
15 called a latency period?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
17 Vague. But you can answer if you understand.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what that
19 means.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. As you sit here today, do you know what
22 a latency period is as it relates to asbestos
23 exposure?
24 A. Not really, no.
25 Q. As you sit here today, do you know on
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1 average how long from exposure to development of
2 an asbestos-related cancer it takes or usually
3 goes by?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
5 You're seeking expert witness opinion. No
6 foundation. Calls for speculation. If you know
7 you can answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. But I've
9 heard from so-called experts anywhere from 25 to
10 40 years. I don't know that.
11 BY MR. HAKLAY:
12 Q. Did you hear that from experts back in
13 the '70s or have you heard that more recently?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Okay. So as you sit here, you don't
16 know whether you knew anything about latency
17 periods during the '70s?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. You can put that aside also. I'm going
20 to mark as Reilly 11 dated 3/1/11, John Reilly
21 11, a one page.
22 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 11, a memo -
23 12/5/78, was then received and marked for
24 identification.)
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. This is on letterhead that says
2 "Educational Materials Division, Fisher
3 Scientific Company". It is to Jack Reilly from
4 Michael Hirsch, H-I-R-S-C-H. Jack Reilly's
5 location is CO, which I think you've told us is
6 corporate offices, correct?
7 A. Either that or central offices.
8 Q. But Pittsburgh?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it's from Michael Hirsch, location
11 EMD/Chicago. The subject is: Wire gauze with
12 asbestos center. It's dated December 5, 1978.
13 It's short. I'll read it very quickly. "Dear
14 Jack: We have decided to drop from our listing
15 in our new catalog wire gauze with asbestos
16 centers because of all the problems that may
17 arise with asbestos. As its replacement we are
18 listing a wire gauze with ceramic centers.
19 Please refer to the attached sheet for the
20 information on the subject. Best regards,
21 Mike -- Mike Hirsch." Then it says there's an
22 attachment.
23 Did I read that correctly before I ask
24 you questions?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Okay. Who is Mike Hirsch?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Okay. Do you even remember if he was
4 associated with EMD in Chicago or not?
5 A. He says he was. I don't -- no, I don't
6 remember him.
7 Q. In 2011 that name is a complete blank
8 to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Fair enough. Do you recall whether you
11 responded in any way to this memo back to
12 Michael Hirsch or back to anybody in EMD?
13 A. No, I don't recall.
14 Q. Have you seen this memo in the last two
15 weeks?
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Do you recall receiving this in 1978?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The Jack Reilly it's addressed to,
20 that's you, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There was no other Jack or John Reilly
23 that you know of at Fisher at that time, was
24 there?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Okay. I don't have to keep asking
2 that. It is now two months minus six days from
3 October 11 when the letter from the children in
4 Mt. Wolf, Pennsylvania at Northeastern Junior
5 High School was written to the date of this --
6 I'm sorry, do you need something, Mr. Williams?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just telling the
8 witness to wait because I'm going to object to
9 your question but I wanted you to get it out.
10 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. I thought you were
11 trying to do something so I'll start again.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just telling him to
13 wait.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. It is now two months minus six days
16 from the date of the letter from the junior high
17 students at Northeastern Junior High School to
18 Fisher Scientific. Do you know whether between
19 October 11, 1978 and December 5th, 1978 any
20 answer had been sent to those children?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Now, my objection. I'm
22 going to object because it misstates -- assumes
23 facts and misstates the record in that it
24 attempts to connect that that letter from the
25 children at that school to this December 5, 1978
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1 memo. So in that sense it assumes facts. But
2 if you understand the question you may answer
3 it.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know of anybody
5 answering the children.
6 BY MR. HAKLAY:
7 Q. You don't remember doing so yourself
8 before December 5th?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. All right. Are you aware that the wire
11 gauze with asbestos centers are the product or
12 one of the products that the children in a
13 science lab were referring to?
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Same objection.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. What products do you believe they were
18 referring to in that letter about using the
19 asbestos-containing products in their science
20 classroom --
21 A. I thought they said mats.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know what a wire gauze
23 with asbestos center would be used for in a
24 science classroom?
25 A. No, I don't. To repeat myself, the
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1 only products that we did not manufacture that
2 we sold that contained asbestos that were used
3 in the lab were gloves and mats.
4 Q. And that is the best memory you have as
5 you sit here in 2011, correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. All right. When Mr. Hirsch wrote to
8 you and wrote, "all the problems that may arise
9 with asbestos," do you know exactly what
10 Mr. Hirsch meant when he wrote that?
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Calls for
12 speculation. But if you know you can answer.
13 THE WITNESS: No. I would only
14 speculate because he wrote it, not me.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. Okay. Do you believe there's any
17 connection between the concerned seventh grade
18 science students' letter about asbestos-
19 containing equipment they used or were going to
20 use in their classroom and the decision less
21 than two months later to stop listing and
22 selling wire gauze with asbestos centers through
23 Fisher Scientific catalogs?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
25 the form. Misstates the record on several
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1 levels. The letter refers to pads. This talks
2 about wire gauze with asbestos centers. And the
3 characterization of decision misstates the
4 record. But over my objection, if you know you
5 can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Are you asking me is
7 there any connection between these two letters?
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. Let me rephrase it, okay. The October
10 11, 1978 letter came from kids in Mt. Wolf,
11 correct?
12 A. Yes. I guess that was the date.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object. It
14 assumes facts not in evidence. But you can
15 answer.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Okay. The December 5th, 1978 memo to
18 you from Michael Hirsch starts "We have decided
19 to drop from our listing", correct?
20 A. Uh-hum.
21 Q. Yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. For her, not for me.
24 To your knowledge is there any
25 connection between the October 11, 1978 letter
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1 from the children about doing experiments with
2 asbestos pads and the December 5th, 1978 memo
3 that refers to a decision to drop wire gauze
4 with asbestos centers from Fisher Scientific
5 catalogs?
6 A. That would only be speculation on my
7 part.
8 Q. Okay. So you don't know?
9 A. No.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Object.
11 MR. HAKLAY: Why don't we change the
12 tape now.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
14 tape four. We're going off the record. The
15 time now is 3:19 p.m.
16 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken
17 from 3:19 p.m. to 3:32 p.m.)
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
19 beginning of tape five in today's deposition.
20 The time now is 3:32 p.m. and we will back on
21 the record.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. You can take your time and read
24 whatever you'd like to read before we start.
25 A. I wanted to ask you if it is okay if I
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1 clarify one of my answers that I gave recently.
2 Q. With regards to what?
3 A. I went back and reread the memo of this
4 group of concerned children.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And they were talking about asbestos
7 pads.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. And then this letter from Michael
10 Hirsch to me saying we're dropping wire gauze.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. And you asked me do you think that
13 that's in connection with the letter from the
14 children.
15 Q. I asked you if there was any connection
16 between the letter from the children and the
17 decision to stop producing wire gauze with
18 asbestos centers.
19 A. And I said I didn't know or I didn't
20 think so. I'm saying now I think they're
21 dropping the wire gauze because I recommended to
22 the company to get out of business.
23 Q. Get out of what business?
24 A. Products that we don't manufacture that
25 we sell that contain asbestos.
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1 Q. Do you -- are you saying now that you
2 believe there is a connection between the letter
3 from the children and the decision to drop that
4 product --
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: He's saying the
7 opposite.
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. -- or is --
10 A. No.
11 Q. Let me finish my question.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Or is that a decision that was made
14 that had no connection to that letter from the
15 school children?
16 A. It had no connection with the letter
17 from the school children. It had a connection
18 with my letter saying let's drop these products.
19 Q. Okay. Is that a letter we've looked at
20 or --
21 A. Yes. No, we've looked at it.
22 Q. Which exhibit number is that letter?
23 A. Exhibit Number 9.
24 Q. And what is that dated?
25 A. November 28th, 1978.
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1 Q. The memo to Joel Fontaine?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where you talk about that you were both
4 a manufacturer and distributor of asbestos
5 products?
6 A. Number three.
7 Q. Number three I read into the record
8 where you talk about conducting a study to
9 determine the feasibility of continuing or
10 discontinuing the manufacture and/or
11 distribution of products that contained
12 asbestos. That's what you're referring to?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I just wanted to --
16 Q. Okay. That's fine. Anything else that
17 you want to put on with regard to that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Are you
20 ready to go forward?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been
23 marked as John Reilly 12 dated 3/1/11.
24 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 12, a letter -
25 12/11/78, was then received and marked for
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1 identification.)
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, I did answer.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Let me ask you questions. This is a
5 letter on Fisher Scientific letterhead dated
6 December 11, 1978 to Mr. Charles R. Kohler,
7 K-O-H-L-E-R, at Northeastern Junior High School
8 on Hartman Street in Manchester, PA, 17345.
9 It's signed, Very truly yours, John R. Reilly,
10 Corporate Safety Director.
11 First, are you John R. Reilly?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you recognize that signature?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Until now I'd asked you whether
16 you know who, if anyone, responded to the
17 children and you stated you had no memory of it.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Does it appear that you wrote back at
20 least to the school, if not, to the kids?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you recall the letter from the
23 kids --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- mentioned -- if you recall I put on
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1 the record that it mentioned in the upper
2 right-hand corner the name Charles Kohler.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I don't know if that's the teacher or
5 who that is. Do you know who that is?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But somebody at Northeastern Junior
8 High School?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. I'm going to read this very
11 short three paragraph letter and then ask you
12 some questions about it, correct?
13 First of all, have you seen this in the
14 last two weeks?
15 A. I may have. I'm not sure.
16 Q. You don't look like you have a strong
17 memory if you did certainly.
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Okay. Until you just had this put in
20 front of you, did you have even the slightest
21 inkling that you had written back to someone at
22 Northeastern Junior High School?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Asked and answered.
24 Object. He didn't recall. I don't know what
25 slightest inkling means. Are you quantifying
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1 now? Over my objection, you can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer it
3 this way and I've been trying to say this. Yes,
4 I would get back to children. Yes.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. But until now, the question --
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you finished with
8 your answer?
9 THE WITNESS: Not really.
10 MR. HAKLAY: Go ahead, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: And apparently from this
12 letter, when I did get back I said I have had
13 several conversations with Mrs. Snelbaker.
14 MR. HAKLAY: Let me read it into the
15 record.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you finished with
17 your answer?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. In other words,
19 yes, I did something.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Okay. "Dear Mr. Kohler: Please
22 forgive the delay in answering your letter;
23 however, I have had several telephone
24 conversations with Mrs. Snelbaker explaining the
25 situation.
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1 We are not the manufacturer of the
2 asbestos pads that you are questioning. I have
3 been in touch with the manufacturer and they are
4 going to send me literature and physical
5 properties of their product, which will be
6 forwarded to you.
7 Enclosed is a copy of the Occupational
8 Safety and Health (OSHA) asbestos standard. As
9 you can see from this standard, OSHA is
10 referring to asbestos operations that liberate
11 airborne articles, (fibers). I will be writing
12 to you again as soon as I receive literature
13 from the manufacturer. Very truly yours" and
14 then John R. Reilly.
15 Did I read it correctly into the record
16 before I ask you anything?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As you're sitting right now, do you
19 have any idea who Mrs. Snelbaker is?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you have any specific conversations
22 with whoever she may be?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You write that we are not the
25 manufacturer of the asbestos pads that you were
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1 questioning, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Do you mean by that sentence that you
4 were also not the distributor?
5 A. No, the manufacturer.
6 Q. How come you didn't write, however, we
7 distribute them and sell them through our
8 catalog?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
10 It's argumentative. It assumes facts. If you
11 understand what's being asked. It's vague.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm going to answer your
13 question I don't know.
14 BY MR. HAKLAY:
15 Q. You said you've been in touch with the
16 manufacturer. Do you know as you sit here, 33
17 years later, who that manufacturer was?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Fair enough. It then says that the
20 manufacturer will be sending literature and
21 physical properties of their product to you and
22 you will forward them to the school, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As of the time you wrote this letter,
25 do you believe you were in possession of
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1 literature -- let me ask that again. I'll
2 withdraw that.
3 To your knowledge before December 11,
4 1978, had you ever seen the manufacturer's
5 literature about their asbestos pads that you
6 sold through your catalog?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. As you sit here, do you recall ever
9 seeing them before this date?
10 A. No, I do not recall.
11 Q. As you sit here, do you know whether
12 that literature included information about
13 testing the product for asbestos fiber release
14 during use?
15 A. No, I do not.
16 Q. Why did you send Mr. Kohler the OSHA
17 standard?
18 A. So he could become familiar with the
19 law, what the law says about asbestos.
20 Q. Okay. And you write that OSHA is
21 referring -- "as you can see from the standard,
22 OSHA is referring to asbestos operations that
23 liberate airborne particles or fibers," correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. That's from your previous
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1 correspondence with OSHA what you believed the
2 standard referred to, correct, what it governed?
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
4 That question is vague. If you understand
5 what's being asked, you can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: No. It does not refer to
7 what I believe. It refers to what the standard
8 said.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. Okay. To what the OSHA standard --
11 what kind of products and in what situations the
12 OSHA standard governs?
13 A. Addressed.
14 Q. Imprecise question, I apologize.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. By writing that paragraph, are you
17 attempting to tell this school that the products
18 that you sell through your catalog do not
19 liberate airborne particles or fibers?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. The
21 document speaks for itself. It says what it
22 says. Over my objection, if you have a
23 recollection you can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that because
25 OSHA is the law that governs asbestos that
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1 people use. And I thought he should have what
2 the law says from the horse's mouth. However,
3 I'll say it again, I do not believe that
4 asbestos pads cause airborne particles that can
5 cause cancer. And neither did OSHA and neither
6 did anyone else in the world.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. I'm sorry, are you saying that the OSHA
9 standard stated that articles such as the
10 products we've been talking about, pads or
11 gloves, present no danger?
12 A. No. I'm saying that if it did present
13 a danger, it would be covered by the OSHA
14 standard.
15 Q. Are you saying that if you -- if a
16 product is not covered by an OSHA standard, that
17 Fisher Scientific had no obligation to determine
18 whether that product was nonetheless dangerous
19 or not dangerous?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object.
21 Obligation is a legal conclusion that you're
22 seeking from this witness and there's no
23 foundation for it. And the question's been
24 asked and answered several times. Over my
25 objection, you can answer it again.
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1 THE WITNESS: You will have to rephrase
2 the question. I don't know what you just said.
3 BY MR. HAKLAY:
4 Q. Did you believe that the products that
5 Fisher Scientific sold through its catalog to
6 schools such as the school that wrote were
7 covered by the OSHA standard?
8 A. No. No, they were not covered by the
9 OSHA standard because they don't liberate
10 airborne fibers.
11 Q. Did you believe as the corporate safety
12 director that regardless of -- let me ask that
13 again. I started it poorly.
14 Do you believe as the corporate safety
15 director that if a product was not covered by
16 the OSHA standard or governed by the OSHA
17 standard, that that meant that no investigation
18 needed to be done by Fisher Scientific and that
19 the product was per se safe?
20 A. No, I do not mean that at all.
21 Q. Do you believe that regardless of
22 whether a product was governed by a specific
23 OSHA standard that Fisher Scientific should have
24 -- should know whether a product is safe for its
25 intended use by its customers?
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1 A. Sure, we should know that.
2 Q. Do you believe that Fisher Scientific
3 should have taken whatever steps were necessary
4 regardless of whether a product was governed by
5 a specific OSHA standard to find out whether or
6 not its products were safe for their intended
7 use for customers?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Object. It's vague.
9 But if you understand what's being asked, you
10 can answer.
11 THE WITNESS: We did. We took due
12 diligence right down the line. I wrote OSHA, I
13 wrote the customers. There was no credible
14 evidence in the world that asbestos pads and
15 gloves caused airborne particles which could
16 cause cancer.
17 BY MR. HAKLAY:
18 Q. Do you believe in your role as Fisher
19 corporate safety director for those many years
20 that in order to know whether a product that you
21 distributed through your catalog was safe, that
22 you would have to know whether anybody had done
23 any monitoring or air testing to see whether
24 fibers or asbestos fibers were released during
25 normal usage?
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object.
2 The question is compound. It's vague. It
3 refers to anybody might do anything. If you
4 understand what's being asked you can answer it.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I think
6 we're beating a dead horse.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish.
8 THE WITNESS: If this table cloth --
9 this table cloth might contain asbestos. I
10 don't know that. But I don't think the person
11 that sold this table cloth to this hotel said,
12 yeah, you know this might contain asbestos, but
13 -- we went on what everyone else in the world
14 went on, what's a hazard according to
15 respectable expert knowledge and what isn't.
16 And pads and gloves were not and are not and
17 will not be a hazard.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Okay. What OSHA wrote to you in the
20 letter we looked at this morning that certain
21 products were not covered by a standard and
22 their danger or non-danger could only be
23 determined through what -- the word in the
24 letter was monitoring.
25 A. If they --
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me object.
2 You're paraphrasing.
3 THE WITNESS: Liberate.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Right. Did you believe as corporate
6 safety director that you needed to make sure by
7 testing or monitoring that products you
8 distributed through your catalog didn't release
9 airborne fibers?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm just going to offer
11 an objection because you're mischaracterizing
12 what -- the OSHA response letter and paraphrasing
13 it in an unfair manner. If you understand
14 what's being asked you can answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm confused now.
16 MR. HAKLAY: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: We -- you can't monitor
18 if a product doesn't release airborne fibers.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. You can't. It's impossible.
22 Q. In the letter to you --
23 MR. WILLIAMS: What -- are we referring
24 to an exhibit?
25 MR. HAKLAY: I'll give this back to
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1 you. I'm telling you the exhibit now. In the
2 letter to you right here.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: What number?
4 MR. HAKLAY: I'm getting to it,
5 Counsel. In number three, the letter of January
6 23rd, 1976 from OSHA back -- I'm sorry, from
7 OSHA to you, correct? The one where somebody
8 signed for David H. Rhone, R-H-O-N-E. In the
9 END of the second paragraph, it says, "the
10 release and extent of release of airborne fibers
11 can only be determined by monitoring," correct?
12 A. Yes, it says that.
13 Q. Did you interpret that to mean that
14 monitoring was a requirement in order to decide
15 whether a product you distributed through your
16 catalog released airborne fibers?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Now I've got to object
18 because the question is utterly unfair because
19 at the beginning of that paragraph says "the use
20 of such products by customers is not addressed
21 by this standard." And the sentence that you
22 just read relates to something else. So the
23 question is unfair, assumes facts. If you
24 understand what's being asked you can answer it.
25 THE WITNESS: Your laboratory products,
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1 such as gloves and mats, did not release
2 airborne fibers, according to the expert
3 testimony throughout the world. Therefore, no
4 monitoring was necessary.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Okay. All right. You can put number
7 three back down, sir. Put it back in order.
8 We're still on Number 12 which is your letter to
9 Mr. Kohler.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Why didn't you write directly to the
12 school children who had written to you?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Why didn't he write back
14 to a host of unidentified people? That question
15 is really unfair, Counselor. It assumes facts.
16 Calls for speculation.
17 THE WITNESS: School children didn't
18 write directly to me.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. Well, do you know of anybody else who
21 responded in writing to anyone at this school
22 other than you now that you've seen this letter?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have any belief from whatever
25 source that somebody else wrote back to the
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1 school other than you from Fisher Scientific?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just offer one
3 objection because I just want to state for the
4 record looking at Reilly Exhibit 6, it's signed
5 Concerned Seventh Grade Science Students. So to
6 the extent your question said should he have
7 wrote a letter to the Concerned Seventh Grade
8 Science Students; is that the question, Counsel?
9 MR. HAKLAY: You can answer my
10 question, sir.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: The question is
12 improper. But you can answer.
13 Can you read back what the pending
14 question is?
15 THE WITNESS: What is your question?
16 (Whereupon, the above-requested
17 question was then read by the reporter.)
18 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. This afternoon I asked you what
21 straightforward answers you would have given the
22 children, correct?
23 A. I guess.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just object to
25 the term "straightforward" as vague and
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1 undefined. But if you understand what's being
2 asked you can answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I would answer the
4 children.
5 BY MR. HAKLAY:
6 Q. Right. And I asked you what answers
7 would you have given them, correct?
8 A. The same ones I'm giving you.
9 Q. Right. And you told me what you would
10 have written to the children. That was before
11 you knew you wrote this letter that I showed
12 you, right?
13 A. Yes. Right.
14 Q. But you told me what in your
15 professional opinion based on your experience
16 you would have written back to these children,
17 correct? Yes?
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
19 Calls for speculation. He also said he didn't
20 even remember getting the letter, Counselor.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: The question is unfair.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember getting
24 the letter.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. Nevertheless, today you told me what
2 you in your professional capacity would have
3 written to these children, correct?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. That's a
5 mischaracterization of his testimony. You asked
6 him to speculate.
7 THE WITNESS: You know, we're chasing
8 tails here. First of all, I don't believe the
9 children wrote that letter.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. What do you mean?
12 A. I believe that Mr. Kohler, a teacher,
13 wrote it and to put some real emphasis on it,
14 signed it concerned children. I don't think
15 seventh grade students would write a letter like
16 that.
17 Q. Okay. Do you admit the possibility
18 that perhaps the teacher brought up the subject
19 of asbestos and as a class project they wrote a
20 letter, so we're not speculating utterly about
21 what the source of the letter is?
22 A. I can't answer that.
23 Q. All you know is that the letter is
24 signed "Concerned Seventh Grade Science
25 Students", correct?
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1 A. Right.
2 Q. Okay. This afternoon you told me --
3 A. It's not signed. It's typewritten.
4 There's no signature.
5 Q. Right. This afternoon you informed me
6 that you would have written back and told the
7 kids that the asbestos products do not cause
8 cancer but that to address their concerns you
9 would look into alternatives, correct?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
11 the form of the question. You're
12 mischaracterizing his testimony, Counsel. And
13 obviously intentionally so. You asked him to
14 speculate --
15 MR. HAKLAY: Counsel.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Counsel.
17 MR. HAKLAY: It's a New Jersey dep.
18 I'm putting on the record that I am not
19 mischaracterizing anything.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: You are.
21 MR. HAKLAY: I'm not doing anything
22 intentionally.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Can I finish my
24 objection?
25 MR. HAKLAY: Not when you start
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1 accusing me of things, you can't.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I can make an
3 objection. You can call it an accusation. I'm
4 calling it an objection.
5 MR. HAKLAY: You made your objection.
6 MR. WILLIAMS: I hadn't finished yet.
7 MR. HAKLAY: You did not call it an
8 accusation. You've accused me of intentionally
9 misrepresenting things. Those were your words.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me just say this,
11 the witness testified that he didn't even recall
12 receiving the letter which is marked as Reilly
13 Exhibit 6, and you asked him to speculate. So
14 don't indicate that somehow he testified that
15 that's what he would have done. You asked him
16 to speculate. And you're building speculation
17 upon speculation. It's unfair and it's without
18 any foundation at all. It calls for
19 speculation.
20 If you have an actual knowledge of
21 doing something you can testify to it. But
22 don't speculate.
23 BY MR. HAKLAY:
24 Q. Mr. Reilly, this afternoon did you tell
25 me if you were going to write back to those
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1 children you would have written that the
2 asbestos does not cause cancer in those products
3 but that you will look into sending them
4 information about alternative sources?
5 A. I believe that's what I told you, yes.
6 Q. Do you say any of that in this letter?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The letter
8 speaks for itself. He also said he didn't
9 recall sending the letter.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that the
11 manufacturer is going to get in touch with me
12 and give you the answers. That's what I'm
13 saying. And I'm also saying, here's the legal
14 law standard.
15 BY MR. HAKLAY:
16 Q. In writing back to the school, whether
17 to the teacher or the teacher and the children,
18 did you answer their question about asbestos
19 causing cancer in this December 11, 1978 letter?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The document
21 speaks for itself. Assumes facts not in
22 evidence. It also calls for an expert opinion.
23 THE WITNESS: I told them we were going
24 to the manufacturer, the horse's mouth.
25 BY MR. HAKLAY:
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1 Q. Okay. You can put that one aside.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. I have premarked as Number 13 another
4 one-page letter.
5 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 13, a letter -
6 12/18/78, was then received and marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. HAKLAY:
9 Q. A copy for everyone. It is dated
10 December 18, 1978 from the Fisher Scientific
11 Company letterhead to Mr. Charles R. Kohler,
12 Northeastern Junior High School in Manchester,
13 PA, from Very truly yours, John R. Reilly,
14 Corporate Safety Director.
15 Again, is this your signature?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Other than the fact that I just put
18 this letter in front of you, do you have an
19 independent recollection of sending another
20 letter to Mr. Kohler?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have you seen this in the last couple
23 of weeks?
24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 Q. I'm going to read the entire four
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1 lines. "Dear Mr. Kohler: In your original
2 letter you mention asbestos pads. I am
3 interested in identifying the product in
4 question. Is the product catalog Number 1-441A,
5 C or D? (See attached). When did you purchase
6 this product? Please send all particulars.
7 Very truly yours", and then your signature.
8 Did I read it correctly so I can ask
9 you some questions about it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It says that there's an attachment. In
12 the letter itself it says "see attached". Do
13 you have any idea what you attached?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you seen the attachment to your
16 knowledge?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Me neither. Why are you interested in
19 having the school identify the product?
20 A. Because maybe they even bought the
21 product from somebody else. I want to know
22 specifically what are you talking about.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. There are all kinds of asbestos pads on
25 the market. Maybe hundreds of them.
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1 Q. Well, let me ask you in regards to
2 answering this letter from a teacher or students
3 or a teacher and students, however you want to
4 think about it, how does the exact type of pad
5 it is, meaning A, C or D, affect your ability to
6 answer the questions you received that were
7 received in that original letter from the
8 students?
9 A. Well, again, maybe it wasn't our pad.
10 There's other suppliers of pads besides Fisher
11 Scientific Company.
12 Q. Do you recall ever receiving a response
13 from Mr. Kohler or anyone else?
14 A. No, I don't. I want to know
15 specifically what are we talking about. Are we
16 talking about this table cloth or that table
17 cloth.
18 Q. In response to your -- in regards to
19 your response to the children of the school
20 about the dangers of asbestos or the pads that
21 they're worried about, why does it matter who
22 made it?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
24 It's been asked and answered twice now. I'll
25 allow it one more time. You can answer it
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1 again.
2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer questions
3 for somebody else's product.
4 BY MR. HAKLAY:
5 Q. Okay. Did you find out something
6 between December 11, the letter we just looked
7 at, and December 18th, this letter that led you
8 to believe that you did not distribute the pads
9 in question?
10 A. I don't recall that, no.
11 Q. Did you speak to anyone -- before
12 December 11th, before the first letter back to
13 the junior high, about your response to the
14 junior high?
15 A. Specifically, I do not recall that, no.
16 Q. Did you speak to anyone between the
17 11th and the 18th about your second response
18 that you were going to write?
19 A. Specifically, I don't recall that, no.
20 Q. Do you know whether this issue was
21 discussed at board meetings or any other
22 functions where Fisher Scientific meetings or
23 memos were distributed by anybody?
24 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll just object to the
25 terminology "issue" because I think that's vague
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1 and undefinable.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. I'll define it better, that's fine. Do
4 you know if the issue of responding to the
5 letter from the school children in Mt. Wolf was
6 discussed either verbally or in meetings or in
7 any other correspondence other than your
8 responses to the school?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether
11 you ever sent on materials from the manufacturer
12 of the pads as you wrote in your December 11th
13 letter?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. You just have to let me finish my
16 question.
17 A. I thought you did.
18 Q. That was a no, you don't have any
19 knowledge whether that happened?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Do you have any information or
22 knowledge as to whether there was further
23 correspondence past this December 18th letter
24 that we're now looking at?
25 A. No, I do not.
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1 Q. To your knowledge did you or anybody
2 else from Fisher Scientific ever address a
3 letter back to this school in any way that dealt
4 with the question in the November -- October
5 11th letter from the kids that talked about
6 their worries about asbestos-causing cancer?
7 A. I do not --
8 MR. WILLIAMS: I missed it. I'm sorry,
9 can you just read it back?
10 (Whereupon, the above-requested
11 question was then read by the reporter.)
12 MR. WILLIAMS: You mean other than the
13 two that he did write? Over my objection, if
14 you understand the question you can answer. It
15 just mischaracterizes his testimony potentially
16 if you're implying --
17 THE WITNESS: If you're asking me did
18 anybody write back to these kids and say this
19 product does cause cancer or this product does
20 not cause cancer, is that what you're asking me?
21 BY MR. HAKLAY:
22 Q. Yes. Or spoke about asbestos and
23 cancer at all in response.
24 A. I do not know.
25 Q. Okay. To your knowledge you did not do
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1 so, however?
2 A. To my knowledge, no.
3 Q. Okay. You can put that -- you already
4 have put that away.
5 I'll mark this as Number 14, John
6 Reilly 14 dated 3/1/11.
7 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 14, a memo -
8 4/9/79, was then received and marked for
9 identification.)
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Keeping with my habit, it's a one-page
12 document on, again, Central Offices/Pittsburgh
13 Fisher Scientific Company heading. It's marked
14 Personal and Confidential. It's written on
15 April 9, 1979 to Harvey Mitchell and Jack
16 Daniels from Jack Reilly. The subject is
17 Asbestos.
18 Are you the Jack Reilly mentioned here?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who is Jack Daniels and was he always
21 good for a good time? I'm just kidding. Who
22 was Jack Daniels?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: It was too good to
24 resist.
25 THE WITNESS: He was a big shot in
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1 marketing and sales.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Okay. And who is Harvey Mitchell?
4 A. He was vice president I believe in
5 charge of purchasing.
6 Q. Okay. Do you -- have you seen this in
7 the last couple of weeks, this memo?
8 A. I don't recall that I have.
9 Q. Why don't you take -- it's very short,
10 why don't you take your time and read it as much
11 as you want.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I'm just going to read the first
14 paragraph -- the first paragraph, yes. "I think
15 that we should discontinue selling products that
16 contain asbestos because of adverse publicity,
17 government regulations, legal ramifications and
18 potential lawsuits. Our approach could be to
19 immediately drop low volume items and to find
20 suitable replacement material for high volume
21 items. Following are three potential suppliers
22 of replacement materials and/or products."
23 Did I read that first paragraph
24 correctly --
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. -- up through the colon at the end of
2 it? Okay. What did you mean when you wrote
3 "legal ramifications", if you remember?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. What did you mean if you wrote
6 "potential lawsuits", if you remember?
7 A. Potential frivolous lawsuits. The word
8 was left out.
9 Q. Was it left out -- do you recall
10 leaving that word out or is that now your
11 belief?
12 A. That's my belief. I'm only talking
13 about frivolous lawsuits.
14 Q. Are you saying that at the time you
15 remember thinking with regards to this memo that
16 you wanted to write frivolous and did not or are
17 you saying now based on your experience in your
18 life you think that's what you wanted to write?
19 A. That's what I mean.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: If you recall, a woman
22 sued McDonald's because she got a cup of hot
23 coffee and put the cup of hot coffee between her
24 legs. I'm saying let's not sell these products.
25 They're a pain in the butt. We're going to get
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1 in all kinds of goofy stuff. Drop them.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. Do you believe that exposure to
4 asbestos fibers in the workplace through
5 asbestos-containing products and lawsuits
6 resulting from that is the equivalent of that
7 woman who sued McDonald's because her coffee was
8 too hot because she spilled it on herself?
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object. That's
10 painfully vague and undefined and argumentative.
11 But over my objection, you can answer. That's
12 not what he said. It's a mischaracterization in
13 his testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: I was born at night but
15 not last night.
16 BY MR. HAKLAY:
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. And I knew that with all the furor and
19 hoopla and frivolous lawsuits and mountains of
20 correspondence and my telephone calls, that it's
21 not worth it for us to screw around with these
22 little products. Get rid of them. That's all.
23 Q. As of 1979 do you know whether or not
24 Fisher Scientific had been sued when you wrote
25 this memo for -- related to asbestos?
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1 A. No, I do not know that.
2 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you
3 attempted to find that out before writing this
4 memo?
5 A. No, I do not.
6 Q. Do you believe that all asbestos-
7 related lawsuits are frivolous?
8 A. No, not at all. Here's what I believe
9 and I don't know how else to say this. If we
10 gave you cancer, then we're responsible. If we
11 didn't give you cancer, we're not responsible.
12 So why are we screwing around with these
13 products that say made with asbestos. Get rid
14 of them. No, not all lawsuits are frivolous.
15 Heavens, no.
16 Q. Okay. Do you believe that all
17 asbestos-related lawsuits that make accusations
18 or allegations concerning Fisher Scientific are
19 frivolous?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to object to
21 form. It's an incomplete factual hypothetical.
22 You're asking him to speculate about lawsuits
23 that he knows nothing about and offer an expert
24 opinion about their merit. It's beyond
25 unreasonable. If you have specific knowledge
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1 about lawsuits, you can answer them. If not,
2 don't speculate.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm not speculating. I'm
4 going to answer your question the best -- and
5 this honestly with all due respect would be my
6 last answer. I don't know how else to say this.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Go on.
9 A. First of all, I don't know how many
10 asbestos lawsuits there are against Fisher. Why
11 would I know and why would I even be involved,
12 number one. But I'm not stupid and I do know
13 that some lawsuits are frivolous. So let's get
14 out of the business so we're not subjected to
15 potential frivolous lawsuits. If I harmed you
16 then I owe you; if I haven't harmed you then
17 leave me alone.
18 Q. That is as clear as it could be, thank
19 you.
20 A. You're welcome.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Indeed.
22 MR. HAKLAY: And I say that with all
23 due respect.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Just wait for a
25 question.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. I'm not disrespected in any way by your
3 answer. You answered my question and I
4 understood it.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. Okay. Can you put that document away.
7 I'm going to mark as Number 15 another one-page
8 document, Jack Reilly 15, 3/1/11. Copy to
9 counsel.
10 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 15, a memo -
11 4/26/79, was then received and marked for
12 identification.)
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. This is an interdepartmental
15 communication from Fisher Scientific Company
16 dated April 26, 1979 from Joe Cremonese -- am I
17 saying that right?
18 A. Yes, Cremonese.
19 Q. Joe Cremonese at Pittsburgh to -- to
20 Joe Cremonese at Pittsburgh from Tom Price,
21 Cleveland. It reads -- the typewritten part
22 reads, "Joe: As you know, asbestos is a
23 forbidden material. What substitutes are
24 available? Do we have a potential market in an
25 asbestos substitute?" There's a lot of
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1 handwriting on this. I'm not reading that right
2 now. As to the printed part, did I read that
3 correctly so I can ask you some questions?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it's hand signed by Tom. I think I
6 already asked you who Tom Price was.
7 A. He's in sales.
8 Q. How about Joe Cremonese?
9 A. I forget what Joe did.
10 Q. That's okay. At the bottom in
11 handwriting it says, "Tom, Jack Reilly has been
12 working on this. We will be using Epoxyn,
13 E-P-O-X-Y-N, transite linings for fume hoods.
14 I'm giving Jack a copy of this so we can provide
15 you with additional information." And then the
16 signature on this is cut off. Do you know what
17 that signature is?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you recall seeing this back in 1979?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: He's not listed as a
23 recipient on this document.
24 BY MR. HAKLAY:
25 Q. Right. It does state that someone is
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1 giving Jack a copy of this, correct?
2 A. Yes. Correct.
3 Q. You don't recall?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know if you've seen it in the
6 last month or so?
7 A. No, I have not.
8 Q. Yes or no, do you have any idea what
9 Tom Price meant when he wrote "asbestos is a
10 forbidden material"?
11 A. Tom Price is a marketing sales-type
12 individual and he's using the word that we
13 talked about before that says avoiding. He
14 doesn't know anything about safety.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. The asbestos is not forbidden.
17 Q. So you don't know what he meant when he
18 said "forbidden"; is that fair?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly what
21 he meant, no.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. That's what I asked you.
24 A. I just know he wrote it because he's a
25 marketing guy.
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1 Q. To your knowledge you never had any
2 discussion with him about his use of the word
3 "forbidden"?
4 A. Never. It's not forbidden.
5 Q. Okay. Can you put that one aside.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. This is being marked as John Reilly 16,
8 dated 3/1/11. It's two-sided. It's a two-page
9 document.
10 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 16, a memo -
11 6/28/79, was then received and marked for
12 identification.)
13 BY MR. HAKLAY:
14 Q. It's a little hard to read. We'll do
15 our best, okay?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. It's, again, on Central Offices/
18 Pittsburgh, Fisher Scientific Company letterhead
19 or memo head. It's to Jack Reilly from Bob
20 Douglas dated June 28, 1979, and I think the
21 subject says Vendor Asbestos Products. Do you
22 agree with that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. You're the Jack Reilly they're
25 talking about, I take it?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have any recollection of this
3 memo --
4 A. No.
5 Q. Why don't you take a minute to look at
6 it.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. It says "Jack, June 8 I report
9 that 16 items were still problems (actually 15).
10 Let me update you on our progress." The first
11 category says "gloves, mittens, finger cots,
12 five items," and it talks about the amount of
13 sales being $83,000 at a good profit margin,
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then there's mats, which are three
17 items, and whoever Bill is recommends
18 substituting Mica, M-I-C-A, product. He will
19 pursue with marketing. Then there's wire gauze,
20 it says, two items, and it looks to me like
21 Forma, the supplier, is changing product to
22 eliminate asbestos.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Do you recognize the name Forma
25 as a supplier of --
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1 A. No.
2 Q. We already seen a document where you
3 recommended -- or you were told wire gauze with
4 asbestos centers would be replaced with wire
5 gauze with ceramic centers, correct?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the
7 terminology of him being told. That's a
8 mischaracterization of his testimony. But over
9 my objection, you can answer.
10 BY MR. HAKLAY:
11 Q. Do you remember we --
12 A. We discussed that, yes.
13 Q. On the same page actually, it says,
14 wire, chromel, C-H-R-O-M-E-L, five items, and
15 "Bill recommends we discontinue and he will
16 pursue with marketing. He will continue to look
17 for an acceptable source -- there are
18 possibilities." And then the next paragraph
19 talks about "Jack, I suspect by the end of next
20 week decisions will have been made on all
21 products (outside suppliers) to effectively
22 remove our liability associated with asbestos
23 products." And then he says he's going to call
24 a meeting for Friday, July 6th that you
25 apparently are going to be invited to.
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1 Do you know who this Bill is?
2 A. Bill --
3 Q. Bill who is recommending discontinuing
4 or talking to the marketing department.
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. Okay. When this memo written to you --
9 which do you have any memory of this memo
10 whatsoever?
11 A. No.
12 Q. That's fine. When it talks about
13 removing our liability, to you is that the same
14 meaning as you commented earlier when you gave
15 me that very clear answer about frivolous versus
16 non-frivolous lawsuits and getting out of the
17 business?
18 A. I can't answer what he means by
19 liability. I didn't write the memo.
20 Q. Okay. That's fine. You can put it
21 down. If you have no opinion on what he meant,
22 that's fine.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: He didn't say he had no
24 opinion. He said he didn't know what he meant,
25 the writer meant. He didn't say he had no
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1 opinion. That wasn't the question.
2 BY MR. HAKLAY:
3 Q. I can ask you again. Here we go --
4 A. I'll answer it this way: My opinion is
5 that marketing and purchasing people use words
6 in the safety arena that they shouldn't and they
7 have no knowledge of and they're out of bounds.
8 Q. Out of bounds meaning they shouldn't do
9 it?
10 A. They should stick to marketing
11 terminology.
12 Q. Fair enough.
13 A. That's why we pay them.
14 Q. What is probably the last exhibit
15 marked John Reilly 17, 3/1/11.
16 (Whereupon, JOHN REILLY 17, a document
17 - printed 12/29/05, was then received and marked
18 for identification.)
19 BY MR. HAKLAY:
20 Q. It's two-sided again. It's one page --
21 one paper, two-sided. At the top, it says,
22 Personal Confidential, and then it says,
23 Asbestos Background Material. Somewhere -- let
24 me point to it and see if you can see it.
25 Somewhere here there's a bar code in the upper
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1 right and then under that it says in smaller
2 print than the rest of the page, printed
3 12/29/05.
4 A. Uh-hum.
5 Q. Do you see any other date on either of
6 these pages that this might have actually been
7 written?
8 A. Yes. Up on top, page one, under
9 Exhibit 21 it says 11/16/10.
10 Q. Right. That's actually on what's a
11 photocopy of a sticker that says 21 Forte,
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. That's actually the date of Mr. Forte's
15 deposition?
16 A. Oh, okay.
17 Q. You're correct, that's another date
18 that's written here. Ignoring what I said and
19 ignoring anything that's in a Plaintiff's
20 exhibit sticker, I don't see any date here that
21 shows what date it was written, do you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. There are four subsections here
24 and there's four sections of this and there are
25 subsections to some of them. Number one is
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1 called "Current OSHA Asbestos Standard,"
2 correct? I'm just making sure --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Number two says, "Current
5 Incidents (Publicity)," correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'm going to number three, "Recent
8 Incidents Reported to Me." Do you have any idea
9 who wrote this page and a half?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea whether you
12 wrote it or not?
13 A. No, I don't. But I sure as -- no, I
14 don't.
15 Q. That's fine. Under number three,
16 "Recent Incidents Reported to Me," it says, "B,
17 We received a letter from a group of seventh
18 grade students inquiring about one of our
19 asbestos products being linked with a health
20 hazard."
21 Did I read that correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can we conclude that it was after that
24 letter after the kids from Northeastern Junior
25 High wrote to you -- wrote to Fisher Scientific?
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1 A. I believe so, yes.
2 Q. Okay. 3E says, "A very large customer
3 returned some kettle clamps," and then it gives
4 what I assume is a product number, "Number
5 11-847-3D, A, B to us because the asbestos was
6 flaking."
7 Did I read that correctly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with asbestos-
10 containing kettle clamps?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know what kettle clamps are?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have any idea whether they're
15 educational, laboratory or --
16 A. No.
17 Q. Neither do I. Did you know before I
18 just showed you this that Fisher Scientific sold
19 through its catalog asbestos-containing kettle
20 clamps?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you made aware at any time after
23 October 11th, 1978, which is the date of the
24 letter from those kids, that Fisher Scientific
25 had distributed or sold a product through its
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1 catalog that had been returned because of
2 asbestos was flaking off of it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And then section four is called "Fisher
5 Products that Contain Asbestos," correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And A is "Indiana Products," and in
8 parentheses, it says, capital CFD and
9 instrument. Do you know what "CFD" stands for?
10 A. Contempra furniture division.
11 Q. Was that at the Indiana, PA plant?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is instrument? How is that
14 separate from the CFD?
15 A. CFD is furniture. Instruments are
16 instruments.
17 Q. Okay. And then the first paragraph
18 says, "fume hoods, worktops, furnaces, hot
19 plates, incubators, clamps, ovens, et cetera.
20 The forms of asbestos used are basically tape,
21 flexboard, marinate, insulated wire, cardboard
22 and gaskets."
23 Did I read that paragraph correctly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you know until you just read this
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1 right now that at the Indiana, PA plant the
2 Fisher products that contained asbestos included
3 fume hoods, worktops, furnaces, hot plates,
4 incubators, clamps, and ovens, et cetera?
5 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me object. It
6 assumes facts and calls for speculation.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. You can answer, sir. Did you know that
9 before you just read it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All you knew about possibly, as I
12 understood you correctly, is the fume hoods?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Did you know about the use of asbestos
15 tape, flexboard, marinate, insulated wire,
16 cardboard or gaskets?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Would you have had any reason as the
19 next paragraph states that the dollar value of
20 these products through 9/28/78 was approximately
21 $1,707,940 with an average gross profit of 40.71
22 percent?
23 A. No, I would not. And I would like to
24 add I could care less.
25 Q. That's what I figured you would say.
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1 That was not your business?
2 A. No. When it comes to safety and
3 health, I don't put dollars -- associate dollars
4 with it.
5 Q. Okay. B -- this is 4B is entitled
6 "Fair Lawn Products," and you've told me that's
7 your manufacturing facility in Fair Lawn, New
8 Jersey, correct?
9 A. For chemicals, right.
10 Q. And it says that "we sold $2,037 --
11 $2,037, average GPA 56.93 percent, worth of
12 asbestos fibers (powder) through 9/28/78. I was
13 advised that this has since been dropped from
14 our line."
15 Did I read that correctly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you know that Fair Lawn sold powder
18 asbestos fibers --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- in 1978?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is this the first time you've ever --
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me -- well, I think
24 the question is vague. But you can answer.
25 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. Is this the first time you've ever seen
3 asbestos associated with the production facility
4 of Fisher Scientific at Fair Lawn, New Jersey?
5 A. To my knowledge, yes.
6 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. If you give me one
7 more minute to see if I'm done. I may very well
8 be done. People on the phone may have
9 questions, but I don't make them ask them.
10 Sir, you've been very patient and I
11 have no more questions for you today. I think
12 we need to find if anybody in the room has any
13 questions of Mr. Reilly. Getting a big no from
14 all three of them.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: Anybody on the phone
16 have questions?
17 DEFENSE ATTORNEYS (phone): No.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm going to have a few
19 questions so why don't we take a short break and
20 then I'll ask mine.
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the
22 record. The time now is 4:20.
23 (Whereupon, a recess was then taken
24 from 4:20 p.m. to 4:33 p.m.)
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
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1 beginning of tape six in today's deposition.
2 The time now is 4:33 p.m. and we're back on the
3 record.
4
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAMS:
6
7 Q. My name is John Williams, the attorney
8 for Fisher Scientific.
9 Mr. Reilly, I know it's been a long day
10 for you and I don't mean to ask any questions
11 that are duplicative of what's already been
12 asked because I know you've answered a lot of
13 these questions already, but I do have a few
14 questions for you.
15 Where did you grow up, sir?
16 A. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
17 Q. Are you married?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long have you been married?
20 A. Next year it will be 50 years.
21 Q. Congratulations.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Do you have children?
24 A. Yes. Three grown children.
25 Q. Do you have -- what are their ages?
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1 A. 47, 45 and 42.
2 MR. HAKLAY: I'm going to lodge an
3 objection at this point to this line of
4 questioning. If you will let me have a
5 continuing objection to it, I won't interrupt
6 again.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
8 MR. HAKLAY: Will you allow me to have
9 a continuing objection?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Of course.
11 MR. HAKLAY: Thank you.
12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
13 Q. Any grandchildren?
14 A. Four.
15 Q. What are their ages?
16 A. Set of twins are 13, grandson is 14,
17 and the other granddaughter is 11.
18 Q. I want to show you what -- what I'll
19 mark as Defendant Reilly Exhibit 1. Just so as
20 not to confuse them.
21 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 1, a resume -
22 John Reilly, was then received and marked for
23 identification.)
24 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
25 Q. Can you identify what this document is?
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1 A. It's my resume.
2 Q. And when was this resume prepared?
3 A. After I retired for my records.
4 Q. So about what year, approximately?
5 A. '97, '98 maybe.
6 Q. All right. In other words, it wasn't
7 prepared for this deposition?
8 A. Oh, no, no. This was in my heirlooms.
9 Q. The first entry on your resume relates
10 to military, and it says, "United States Army
11 Security Agency - Top Secret Clearance." Can
12 you explain that for me, sir?
13 A. After basic training the US Army asked
14 me to take a battery of tests, and when I
15 completed them, they said, would you like to go
16 into the Army security agency and they briefly
17 told me what it was. But they said that depends
18 on an exhaustive background check on me.
19 Q. Is top secret clearance the highest
20 level of security clearance in the military?
21 A. It was then, yes.
22 Q. What does it take to achieve that level
23 of security clearance?
24 A. I just think you have to be a straight
25 shooter and you can sit up and take nourishment
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1 and you have good morals and you have no
2 criminal background or no police background and
3 you're a straight shooter.
4 Q. Is that -- well, strike that.
5 Did you -- where did you serve in the
6 military?
7 A. Philippine islands.
8 Q. What years?
9 A. 1954 to January 1957.
10 Q. What information -- going back for a
11 second to the top clearance, what information
12 are you privy to for the United States
13 government in getting that security clearance?
14 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You want him
15 to reveal the information that's top secret?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: No. I'm talking about
17 the broad categories of the kinds of information
18 without revealing any of the specifics
19 obviously.
20 THE WITNESS: The kinds of information
21 about my duties?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: I think I can truthfully
24 say without revealing anything that I was a
25 radio traffic analyst which meant I deciphered
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1 enemy broadcasts.
2 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
3 Q. The next category is "Education". You
4 received -- just describe what your education
5 was.
6 A. Bachelor of Science degree from
7 Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.
8 Q. And you achieved a degree?
9 A. Yes, a BS degree.
10 Q. In what? It's a Bachelor of Science
11 degree?
12 A. Yes, Bachelor of Science.
13 Q. And what year?
14 A. I graduated in 1961.
15 Q. Going back down into your -- through
16 your resume, "Professional Experience" is the
17 first thing you have and you've already
18 described in fairly good detail a lot of this
19 employment. But I wanted to just hit a couple
20 of things, if I could, real quickly. It's in
21 reverse order, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So going down to the bottom of
24 Professional Experience where you're talking
25 about Crum & Forster --
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Describe what a safety engineer is.
3 A. Excuse me. I inspected potential
4 clients for safety and then recommended to
5 underwriters whether I thought they were a poor
6 risk or a good risk.
7 Q. Now, the next entry -- and you already
8 talked about Koppers Company, which is you were
9 a division safety engineer, from 1969 to 1972 --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- is that right? And you already
12 described some of your experience. But my
13 specific question is: Did you have any
14 experience or training at that time in lab
15 safety?
16 A. Well, Koppers had labs, but no, not
17 really. I was a generalist.
18 Q. And at that time you had -- I think you
19 testified you went through the OSHA training
20 academy; is that right?
21 A. Yes. And let me clarify that a little
22 bit. I went through the training academy to
23 teach OSHA standards to teach OSHA compliance.
24 Q. I think we'll get to that. So up to
25 the point of Fisher Scientific Group, which is
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1 your next item where you were the safety
2 director, when you were hired by Fisher
3 Scientific, did you have any expertise or
4 experience then in lab safety?
5 A. In general.
6 Q. And did you have any expertise or
7 experience in OSHA compliance?
8 A. Oh, my, yes. I was -- I say this
9 humbly, I was considered an expert in OSHA
10 compliance.
11 Q. Now, for Fisher Scientific, I won't go
12 into in great detail what your job duties were,
13 you were the safety director from 1972 to 1986;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes. The last couple of years I had
16 other duties.
17 Q. Now, did Fisher Scientific advise you
18 why they were hiring you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why were they hiring you?
21 A. Their main reason was OSHA was brand
22 new and American industry to be honest with you
23 were scared to death. You know, this is a new
24 government bureaucracy. Fisher hired me to make
25 sure that they were in compliance with OSHA.
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1 Q. What was your goal as safety director
2 in your view?
3 A. In Fisher Scientific?
4 Q. Yes. What was your charge? What was
5 your goal?
6 A. My personal goal by then, I thought
7 that safety was a very noble profession and I
8 thought that if I could in my small way
9 eliminate human misery and occupational injuries
10 and illness, that would be very gratifying. So
11 my goals were to prevent accidents, to bring
12 Fisher into compliance and to build and
13 implement a corporate-wide safety program.
14 Q. Did your goals involve in any way lab
15 safety either at Fisher Scientific itself or for
16 its customers outside?
17 A. Oh, my, yes.
18 Q. Can you describe how you implemented
19 that?
20 A. When I got to Fisher I soon found out
21 that they were -- their customers were
22 laboratory personnel. So I had to learn, number
23 one, OSHA standards that could be interpreted to
24 comply with the lab; and number two, I started
25 to do work for the sales department and the
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1 marketing department. I would get a question
2 like does OSHA say anything about a fire
3 extinguisher because we sold fire extinguishers,
4 so I would teach them what OSHA said about the
5 fire extinguisher. First aid kits, fire
6 blankets.
7 And that eventually led into customer
8 workshops. And for a number of years I
9 literally gave hundreds of customer workshops on
10 lab safety throughout the United States, Puerto
11 Rico and Canada.
12 Q. I want to ask you directly: Did or did
13 not the buck stop with you at Fisher Scientific
14 to determine if any danger or hazard existed
15 with any product that Fisher Scientific supplied
16 to its customer?
17 A. The buck stopped with me.
18 Q. Let me go back to your CV, your resume,
19 for a second. Going down to near the bottom of
20 the first page, you have an entry heading that
21 says "Significant Safety Speeches/Presentations
22 and Workshops." Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the first entry is "Society of
25 Medical Technologists." Can you describe what
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1 that work was?
2 A. Medical technologist is a technician
3 that works in a medical laboratory. It could be
4 a hospital, it could be a nursing home, a
5 medical lab. And they formed their own society
6 of medical technologists by state.
7 Q. What did you do for them?
8 A. I used to be invited to address their
9 conventions on laboratory safety.
10 Q. Did you also address their conventions
11 regarding OSHA compliance?
12 A. Oh, my, yes. That was always and still
13 is a big question to lab people, what does OSHA
14 say about the lab.
15 Q. And all of these locations, these
16 states, and I see Canada and Puerto Rico listed
17 as well, these are all places you went and
18 lectured on lab safety and OSHA compliance?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The next entry below that says "Fisher
21 Scientific Company - Exposition." Can you
22 explain what that work was that you did?
23 A. Yes. We used to hold conventions and I
24 was invited to give speeches on lab safety at
25 these conventions and they're the states that I
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1 went to.
2 Q. And did these -- you gave lectures in
3 all of these different states?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did the lectures relate to lab
6 safety?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did the lectures relate to OSHA
9 compliance?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. About how many lectures did you give
12 for these two categories for Society of Medical
13 Technologists and Fisher Scientific Company -
14 Exposition?
15 A. In my career at Fisher?
16 Q. Yes. About how many if you could
17 ballpark.
18 A. This is a guess. My guess would be
19 500, 600.
20 Q. Over the course of how many years?
21 A. Ten, 12 years.
22 Q. Let's go to the next entry at the top
23 of the second page and there's a long paragraph
24 of institutions and entities here under the
25 heading "Other Organizations." Can you explain
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1 what you're intending to mean by that? What did
2 you do for them?
3 A. Same thing. I was invited to teach lab
4 safety and OSHA compliance to those
5 organizations. By then, and again, I don't like
6 too much to talk about myself, but my name was
7 getting out there and these were invites and
8 these were companies that I taught lab safety to
9 and OSHA compliance.
10 Q. And so these were essentially safety
11 workshops that you're giving?
12 A. Yes. Except where you see Duquesne
13 University -- where you see those universities.
14 For example, at Penn State --
15 Q. Let's stay on organizations for one
16 minute.
17 A. Excuse me.
18 Q. Let me stay on organizations for one
19 minute. I won't belabor this because there's a
20 whole paragraph where you gave safety workshops.
21 About how many safety workshops or lectures did
22 you give to all of these institutions?
23 A. In my career?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Hundreds.
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1 Q. Let's go to the next entry, "University
2 Safety Courses - Instructor." Can you tell us
3 what that means?
4 A. Pitt, University of Pittsburgh hired me
5 to teach a week-long safety course. Penn State
6 hired me to teach a 16-week long safety course.
7 Community College of Allegany County hired me on
8 numerous occasions to teach safety courses.
9 Q. And do these safety courses relate to
10 lab safety?
11 A. Lab safety, general safety and OSHA
12 compliance.
13 Q. And this was while you were employed by
14 Fisher Scientific?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let's continue down your CV. The next
17 entry is "Published Safety Articles and
18 Interviews." Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Let's take the first paragraph first.
21 What are you referring to there? Let me say
22 this -- let me just read into the record, it
23 says, "Pennsylvania Self-Insurers Association
24 (2), Industrial Research (2), Canadian Chemical
25 News, The Journal of Production Management,
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1 Occupational Hazards (Interviewed) and
2 Pittsburgh Press (Interviewed)."
3 What are you talking about there?
4 A. Pennsylvania Self-Insurer Associations
5 is a group of companies in the state of
6 Pennsylvania who insure themselves, and I was
7 called by them to lecture on lab safety, general
8 safety and OSHA compliance. "Industrial
9 Research", "Canadian Chemical News", "The
10 Journal of Production Management", "Occupational
11 Hazards" are all magazines related to safety,
12 national magazines that asked me to publish
13 articles.
14 For example, in one of those magazines,
15 and I believe it was "Occupational Hazards", I
16 wrote a long article on laboratory safety for
17 the '80s.
18 Q. What about "Pittsburgh Press"?
19 A. They interviewed me when I was in
20 charge of safety at the Port Authority of
21 Allegany County. We used to unfortunately once
22 or twice a year kill somebody with a bus, and I
23 had to go and investigate the fatality so The
24 Press, that's the large newspaper in Pittsburgh,
25 wanted to know what you were doing about this.
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1 Q. During the time you were at Fisher
2 Scientific were you a nationally recognized
3 safety expert?
4 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You can
5 answer, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was.
7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
8 Q. Were you a nationally recognized lab
9 safety --
10 A. Yes, I was. Probably the premier one
11 in the United States.
12 Q. Were you a nationally recognized OSHA
13 compliance expert?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. Let's go to the next paragraph of your
16 "Published Safety Articles and Interviews."
17 I'll just read it quickly. "Published a
18 Laboratory Safety Manual for International Use.
19 Wrote and published -- wrote and produced OSHA
20 HazCom, H-A-Z-C-O-M, Training Course, wrote and
21 produced numerous safety training products."
22 Can you explain what that entry relates
23 to?
24 A. Laboratory safety manual was both a
25 safety and marketing tool publication. And I
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1 basically wrote the safety section of it. And
2 it was used as a reference document in labs
3 throughout the world.
4 In fact, I have to tell you this one
5 time I was doing something for Boeing Aircraft
6 on the West Coast, and I said, what do you
7 govern your laboratory safety programs on, and
8 he handed me this manual. Well, of course, I
9 was pretty proud when I told him, thank you, I
10 wrote it.
11 Q. Let's go to the next paragraph on your
12 resume, which is "Certificates, Diplomas and
13 Awards." Now, it's a whole long paragraph and I
14 think we could probably talk for an hour about
15 all the awards, but let me ask you about a
16 couple of them. On the second line, it says,
17 "United States Department of Labor (OSHA
18 instructor, NIOSH Industrial and Laboratory
19 Safety)." Then it goes on, "National Safety
20 Council - Certificate of Recognition."
21 Can you explain what that relates to?
22 A. OSHA instructor is the course I've
23 referred to earlier that I graduated from. And
24 therefore I had their blessing to teach OSHA
25 compliance. NIOSH is the National Institute of
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1 Occupational Safety and Health. I attended a
2 laboratory safety with NIOSH. National Safety
3 Council is the largest safety organization in
4 the world and I was recognized by them for some
5 of my work.
6 Q. Next couple of lines down in that same
7 paragraph, it says, "International Golden Eagle
8 Award (Two Safety Motion Pictures)." What does
9 that relate to?
10 A. I wrote two laboratory safety movies.
11 And the second one we hired Jack Klugman from
12 "Quincy" fame to narrate it. And when he read
13 my script and his agent, and he said for this
14 amount of money, I'll do it and --
15 Q. Did he say why?
16 A. Yes. He said it's a story that has to
17 be told.
18 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to the hearsay.
19 Go ahead, sir.
20 THE WITNESS: So I flew to Hollywood
21 and we picked up Mr. Klugman at his house and I
22 worked with him for about five hours to produce
23 this movie. Those movies were entered into the
24 film festival in Cannes, France and they both
25 won the Golden Eagle award.
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1 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
2 Q. So your movie won an award in Cannes?
3 A. Both movies.
4 Q. Do you recall what year that was?
5 A. The one with Jack Klugman was 1981.
6 I'm going to guess and say the one -- the other
7 one was a few years prior.
8 Q. Okay. The last paragraph in your
9 resume relates to memberships. And again, it's
10 a rather long paragraph. But are there any
11 memberships here that are applicable or that the
12 finder of fact here in this case might want to
13 know about?
14 A. Well, yes. I'm a member of the
15 American Society of Safety Engineers.
16 Q. What does it take to become a member of
17 that?
18 A. You have to be somebody in the safety
19 profession and make some contributions. I'm a
20 professional member. I worked for and I was on
21 the board of directors of the Western
22 Pennsylvania Safety Council.
23 Q. What about the next entry, "Who's Who
24 in the Safety Profession," what is that?
25 A. That's a book of safety professionals.
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1 And, again, you have to have some
2 accomplishments and they contacted me and asked
3 me if I would like to be included in their
4 publication and I said yes.
5 Q. When were you first included? If you
6 recall.
7 A. I don't know the year. But it was the
8 first publication of who's who in the safety
9 profession.
10 Q. What about -- one more entry because we
11 can't spend all day talking about all of these
12 memberships and awards you have. But one that
13 maybe bears notice, "Marquis, M-A-R-Q-U-I-S,
14 Who's Who in the East," what does that relate
15 to?
16 A. "Marquis" is the publication that
17 publishes who's who in the world. They ask me
18 to get into their publication "Who's Who in the
19 East," and that includes Eastern Canadian
20 provinces and all Eastern states down to
21 Florida. And they put you in there if they feel
22 that you've contributed something.
23 Q. Do you recall what year that was that
24 you became a member of that society?
25 A. No. I have it at home, but no, I
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1 don't.
2 Q. You had talked earlier about
3 interviewing over the vast course of your career
4 medical professionals about lab safety issues.
5 Do you recall that?
6 A. Well, all of these workshops were
7 attended by pathologists and medical
8 technologists and laboratory managers and
9 laboratory employees. And they had hundreds and
10 hundreds of questions so it would interface.
11 Q. So you're talking about multiple
12 meetings with doctors and pathologists of all
13 different sorts?
14 A. Yes. To better answer it, let me try
15 to give you an example. Two large hospitals in
16 Pittsburgh are Mercy Hospital and St. Clara
17 Hospital and I was asked to come in and put
18 safety programs into their labs which I did.
19 Q. In all of the interviews and all the
20 discussions that you had with all the doctors
21 and medical professionals, pathologists that
22 you've described, did any of them ever raise any
23 concern about the safety of the asbestos-
24 containing lab products that we're talking about
25 here, gloves, wire gauze, mittens?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. I want to direct a few questions to you
3 specifically about these asbestos-containing lab
4 products that we're talking about here today,
5 gloves, mittens, and wire gauze with asbestos
6 centers, okay?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. I want to talk about those products
9 that Fisher Scientific sold. Is it your
10 understanding that Fisher Scientific did not
11 manufacture those products?
12 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading.
13 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
14 Q. Well, did Fisher Scientific manufacture
15 those products?
16 A. Gloves, mats and that wire mesh, no.
17 Q. Did Fisher Scientific --
18 A. Not to my knowledge.
19 MR. HAKLAY: Sir, I'm sorry. I'm going
20 to interject an objection. It does not mean I'm
21 approving or disapproving your answer. Same
22 thing, let me enter it if I'm going to and then
23 answer the question.
24 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
25 Q. Have you ever worn personally Fisher
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1 Scientific gloves or mittens?
2 A. Oh, sure. On occasion I've put them
3 on, sure.
4 Q. Have you ever worn Fisher Scientific
5 asbestos-containing gloves on occasion?
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. Were you ever afraid to put them on?
8 A. No.
9 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Relevance.
10 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
11 Q. Were you ever afraid to wear them?
12 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Relevance.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
15 Q. Have you ever handled asbestos-
16 containing wire gauze pads?
17 A. I've picked up pads.
18 Q. Were you ever afraid to pick them up?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you ever afraid to manipulate
21 them?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Let me be clear about -- let me ask you
24 a few questions very specifically because I
25 don't want there to be any confusion about it.
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1 Did you ever have any knowledge or
2 belief that these asbestos-containing lab
3 products that we're talking about, gloves,
4 mittens, wire gauze with asbestos centers were
5 hazardous or dangerous in any way?
6 A. No. Never ever ever. And I still
7 don't believe it.
8 Q. Did you ever see any evidence to that
9 effect?
10 A. No. No written research, publicity,
11 no.
12 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that they were
13 dangerous or hazardous?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Did you ever have any reason to believe
16 that they were dangerous or hazardous?
17 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 MR. HAKLAY: You can answer. You did
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
23 Q. Did you ever feel during your time at
24 Fisher Scientific that you had any reason to
25 warn Fisher Scientific customers that any of
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1 those asbestos-containing lab products were
2 dangerous or hazardous?
3 A. No. I --
4 Q. Let me ask you next --
5 MR. HAKLAY: I'm sorry, he wasn't
6 finished with his answer.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Did you have anything
8 else?
9 MR. HAKLAY: He was starting to say
10 something.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me be clear --
12 THE WITNESS: Fisher Scientific Company
13 from management on down, from Ben Fisher of the
14 original Fisher family, were very, very moral
15 ethical people. I believe I'm an ethical moral
16 person. Working for a company like that was
17 just wonderful. If anyone in that company from
18 Ben Fisher on down or myself thought that we
19 were harming people with these lab products, we
20 would have done something.
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q. What would you have done --
23 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on. Let me move to
24 strike the nonresponsive portions.
25 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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1 Q. If you had learned hypothetically that
2 there was any hazard or danger to these
3 asbestos-containing lab products, which you have
4 said there was not, what would you have done?
5 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: Told them to immediately
7 discontinue.
8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
9 Q. Let me be clear about a few other
10 questions. Did you while you were at Fisher
11 Scientific have any knowledge or belief that any
12 of these asbestos-containing lab products that
13 we're talking about, gloves, mittens, wire gauze
14 with asbestos centers, violated OSHA standards?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you -- while you were at Fisher
17 Scientific or any other time?
18 A. No.
19 Q. While you were at Fisher Scientific or
20 any other time, did you ever have any knowledge
21 or belief that the use of these asbestos-
22 containing lab products, gloves, mittens, wire
23 gauze with asbestos centers, released airborne
24 fibers of asbestos?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. To your knowledge has Fisher Scientific
2 ever put a customer at risk --
3 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
4 MR. WILLIAMS: -- by its --
5 MR. HAKLAY: I didn't know you weren't
6 finished with the question.
7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
8 Q. To your knowledge has Fisher Scientific
9 ever put a customer at risk by selling a
10 dangerous product?
11 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. You can
12 answer, sir.
13 THE WITNESS: Knowingly, no.
14 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
15 Q. Have you ever knowingly allowed Fisher
16 Scientific to sell a hazardous or unsafe
17 product?
18 A. Knowingly, no.
19 MR. HAKLAY: I'd like to enter an
20 objection to that last question, I'm sorry, on
21 the record.
22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
23 Q. You've already testified to at some
24 point these asbestos-containing lab products
25 that we're talking about, gloves, mittens, wire
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1 gauze with asbestos centers, were discontinued
2 by Fisher Scientific, right?
3 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
6 Q. Well, let me ask you: At some point
7 were these products discontinued?
8 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes.
9 Q. Who made the decision to discontinue
10 them?
11 A. Me.
12 Q. Approximately when did you make the
13 decision to discontinue them?
14 A. Late '70s. Middle to late '70s.
15 Q. Let's be clear about this. What was
16 the reason for your decision to discontinue
17 these asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,
18 mittens and wire gauze with asbestos center?
19 A. Because of future headaches.
20 Q. What do you mean by that?
21 A. Why keep getting punched in the mouth
22 when you don't have to. Why fool around with
23 little products that asbestos was the thing.
24 And you even saw today where some people said
25 forbidden and avoiding. So let's get out of
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1 that business so we don't have adverse publicity
2 and tons of correspondence and hundreds of
3 telephone calls and frivolous lawsuits. It's
4 not worth it.
5 Q. Did your decision to discontinue these
6 asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,
7 mittens, wire gauze with asbestos center, have
8 anything to do with safety concerns?
9 A. None whatsoever.
10 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to that
11 question.
12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
13 Q. Was the -- was your decision to
14 discontinue these asbestos-containing lab
15 products done in any way because you believe
16 they were dangerous or hazardous?
17 A. No.
18 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Leading. Sir,
19 if you could, when I start talking just let me
20 finish my objection just like before, okay?
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q. You had a discussion earlier with
23 counsel on direct talking about something -- or
24 a catalog reference to the effect "meets OSHA
25 requirements" and you wanted that language out
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1 of the catalog; is that right? Do you recall
2 that?
3 A. Yes. I really wanted "OSHA approved"
4 out of the catalog and then let in the "meet
5 OSHA requirements", yes.
6 Q. And why did you want that language
7 stricken? What's wrong with that language?
8 A. OSHA doesn't approve products, number
9 one. And if OSHA has a standard and it tells
10 you to comply with it, it doesn't tell you what
11 product to buy to comply with it.
12 Q. Did your desire to have that language
13 out of the catalog have anything to do -- relate
14 in any way to a belief that those products were
15 in any way dangerous or hazardous?
16 A. No, no. I mean my belief was "meets
17 OSHA products" and "OSHA approved" is a lie so
18 don't say it.
19 Q. Because -- but it doesn't have anything
20 to do with the product itself being unsafe?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It has to do with the requirements of
23 OSHA and things don't technically comply or not
24 comply; is that right?
25 MR. HAKLAY: Objection to the leading
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1 nature of that entire question.
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
4 Q. Is that right?
5 A. Yes. And I think personally I feel
6 that you might be safe in saying this certain
7 product will help you comply with an OSHA
8 standard.
9 Q. Okay. Let me mark another exhibit.
10 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 2, a letter -
11 12/3/75, was then received and marked for
12 identification.)
13 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
14 Q. And we'll call this Reilly Exhibit 2,
15 Defendant Reilly Exhibit 2.
16 You were shown on direct by counsel the
17 -- which is marked as Reilly Exhibit 3 -- OSHA's
18 January 23, 1976 response to your December 3,
19 1975 letter, but he didn't show you your actual
20 letter so that's what I'm marking. That's what
21 I'm marking here.
22 MR. HAKLAY: I have an objection to any
23 questions regarding this document, which was
24 despite clear requests in three different cases
25 not produced to Plaintiffs' counsel in Feldner,
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1 Zakanych or Blackburn.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't necessarily
3 agree with that, but note your objection.
4 MR. HAKLAY: You don't agree that it
5 wasn't produced?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Are you asking me do I
7 have a working knowledge of every document that
8 was produced in those three cases? And I can
9 recite to you as I sit here --
10 MR. HAKLAY: You said, I don't agree
11 with what you said.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: I said, I don't
13 necessarily agree with what you said.
14 MR. HAKLAY: Can I have a continuous
15 objection to any questions about this document
16 based on my objection?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: I note your objection.
18 MR. HAKLAY: Can I have a continuing
19 objection to any questions about this document?
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Certainly.
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q. Can you identify what this document is?
23 A. Well, apparently, it's the second time
24 I wrote this gentleman, David Rhone, asking
25 would you please clarify 1910.1001.
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1 Q. This is dated December 3, 1975; is that
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall why you wrote to OSHA on
5 that date?
6 A. I'm not sure. I believe that they
7 didn't answer the first letter.
8 Q. Well --
9 A. Maybe they answered it. Not to my
10 satisfaction. But I'm not sure.
11 Q. Without having to belabor showing you a
12 lot of exhibits, let me refresh your
13 recollection, if I can, that -- I want to show
14 you Reilly Exhibit 7, which was the letter that
15 was shown to you that's dated -- what's the date
16 on that letter?
17 A. November 6, '78.
18 Q. All right. So the letter that I'm now
19 showing you, what's the date on that letter?
20 A. '75.
21 Q. So Reilly Defendant's Exhibit 2 is an
22 earlier letter than the one you were shown
23 before; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So why did you write this first letter
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1 on December 3, 1975 to OSHA?
2 A. Because I want to know does your
3 standard apply to laboratory products that are
4 made of asbestos.
5 Q. Okay. You state in part, in your
6 second sentence, let me just read it, "I would
7 appreciate your clarification of the asbestos
8 standard 1910.1001. I interpret the standard to
9 apply to any process involving the release of
10 airborne asbestos fibers. I believe that
11 laboratory products are made -- that are made
12 from asbestos, i.e. gloves, finger cots, mats,
13 fire blankets, are exempt from this standard
14 because their use does not liberate airborne
15 fibers. Your clarification and cooperation is
16 greatly appreciated." And it's -- it's not
17 signed, but it says "John R. Reilly, Corporate
18 Safety Director" as the sender.
19 Did I read that correctly?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have any recollection as you sit
22 here today of writing OSHA in December of 1975?
23 A. No, not the date. I just know even
24 before this whole shebang started that I had
25 some correspondence with OSHA regarding asbestos
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1 and laboratory safety products. I recall that.
2 Q. Okay. Did you -- did anybody advise
3 you or instruct you to write OSHA in 1975 or did
4 you do it on your own?
5 A. On my own.
6 Q. Rather than giving you new exhibits, I
7 want to show you the exhibits that have been
8 previously marked if they have been. I want to
9 show you again Reilly Exhibit 6, which is the
10 letter from the Northeastern School District,
11 and ask you just a couple of questions about
12 that.
13 Now, let's just be frank about this.
14 Was this letter dated October 11, 1978, the
15 impetus for you looking into or initiating your
16 process at Fisher Scientific to discontinue the
17 asbestos-containing lab products, gloves,
18 mittens, asbestos wire gauze with asbestos
19 centers?
20 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No connection at all.
22 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
23 Q. So if someone implied or said that
24 Fisher Scientific didn't start the process of
25 discontinuing these asbestos-containing lab
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1 products and that somehow this letter, which is
2 marked as Reilly Exhibit 6 was the impetus for
3 you to do so, that would be incorrect?
4 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. It would be
6 untrue.
7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
8 Q. That's all the questions I have about
9 that exhibit.
10 Let me show you next what has
11 previously been marked as Reilly Exhibit 11
12 which is the -- which is a document dated
13 December 5, 1978. You've already been asked by
14 counsel about that; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it talks about -- it's a very short
17 letter and it says, "Dear Jack: We have decided
18 to drop from our listing in our new catalog wire
19 gauze with asbestos centers because of all the
20 problems that may arise with asbestos." And
21 you've already answered questions about that.
22 But here's my question to you: Did the
23 decision to drop wire gauze with asbestos
24 centers have anything to do with receiving the
25 letter marked as Reilly Exhibit 6 which is from
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1 the Northeastern School District?
2 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Hold on, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: No, no.
4 MR. HAKLAY: Hold on. Objection. Go
5 ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: No. I do not think so,
7 no.
8 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
9 Q. I want to show you next what was
10 previously marked as Reilly Exhibit 13, which is
11 the December 18, 1978 letter that you wrote back
12 to Mr. Charles Kohler at the Northeastern Junior
13 High School. And Counsel's already asked you
14 questions about that document. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. My question to you is very simple: Did
17 you ever hear again from either Mr. Kohler or
18 anybody at Northeastern Junior High School
19 responding to your questions about identifying
20 the product that they were asking you about?
21 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
22 Q. Okay. That's all the questions I have
23 about that document.
24 I want to mark what's been identified
25 as Defendant's Exhibit 3, which I don't believe
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1 has been marked, but, Counsel, correct me if
2 you've already marked it, but I don't believe
3 you have, which is March 23, 1979 letter from
4 the Department of Labor.
5 (Whereupon, DEFT. REILLY 3, a letter -
6 3/23/79, was then received and marked for
7 identification.)
8 MR. HAKLAY: Before you do so, I have
9 an objection to the use of this document which
10 has not been produced in any of the three cases
11 that are noticed here by Fisher Scientific to
12 counsel for any of the three Plaintiffs, which
13 is our firm in all cases.
14 Will you allow me to have a continuing
15 objection to the use of this document and any
16 questions or references to it?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Again, I don't
18 necessarily agree with the factual premise of
19 your objection. But you may certainly have a
20 continuing objection.
21 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
22 Q. Mr. Reilly, let me ask you a few
23 questions about this. Can you identify this
24 document?
25 A. I don't remember it, no.
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1 Q. It's identified as a letter from the US
2 Department of Labor, Bruce Hillenbrand dated
3 March 23, 1979. Is that what the document says?
4 And it appears to be to you, John R. Reilly.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it says, "Thank you" -- "Dear
7 Mr. Reilly: Thank you for your letter of
8 November 6, 1978 concerning the OSHA asbestos
9 standard 29 CFR 1910.1001. Please accept my
10 apology for our delay in replying." It goes on
11 to say, "During normal use of the asbestos
12 laboratory products named in your letter,
13 exposures are expected to be low and thus would
14 comply with the OSHA asbestos standard. The
15 asbestos standard does apply during the
16 manufacture, cutting, grinding, drilling and
17 sawing of these items, as well as during
18 operations which involve cleaning them with a
19 wire brush or extensive shaking (of fire
20 blankets, for instance). It goes on.
21 Do you have any recollection of
22 receiving this letter from OSHA?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of having
25 a view about what OSHA was telling you in its
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1 response to your second letter to them?
2 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. In addition to
3 my standing objection to the nature of that
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: You mean do I have any
6 comments on this letter that I'm looking at
7 here?
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: I would say unless you
10 cut, abrade, grind or drill or saw it, you're in
11 compliance.
12 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
13 Q. Did OSHA indicate to you that these
14 products that you asked about did not comply
15 with OSHA standards?
16 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
19 Q. I just have a few more questions for
20 you and I want to find the exhibit that was
21 previously marked.
22 Let me show you what was previously
23 marked as Reilly Exhibit 16. And counsel
24 already asked you some questions about this
25 Reilly Exhibit 16 -- actually, let me give you
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1 -- can you find Reilly Exhibit 16 in your stack?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. HAKLAY: Can you tell me what
4 that's dated so I can find it in mine?
5 THE WITNESS: 16, yes.
6 MR. HAKLAY: What's the date on that?
7 THE WITNESS: June 28, 1979.
8 MR. HAKLAY: Thank you.
9 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
10 Q. It's a two-sided document. Do you see
11 that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in the first paragraph relating to
14 gloves and mittens, it says, "Although sales are
15 $83,000 at a good profit margin, I have asked
16 Bill to pursue discontinuance with marketing.
17 Bill will continue to look for an acceptable
18 source, but in the meantime we will get out of
19 the business after selling off our inventory."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall at the time you
23 recommended discontinuing these asbestos-
24 containing lab products that Fisher was going to
25 continue to sell off its existing inventory?
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1 MR. HAKLAY: I'm going to object just
2 because this is to Mr. Reilly and not from
3 Mr. Reilly.
4 MR. WILLIAMS: I understand that.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure of that, but
6 I will say that I believe that selling off the
7 inventory would be okay because they don't cause
8 a health hazard.
9 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
10 Q. Would Fisher have sold off the existing
11 inventory of its gloves and mittens that
12 contained asbestos if they believed it was a
13 safety or health hazard?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 MR. HAKLAY: Objection. Go ahead.
16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not.
17 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
18 Q. Why not?
19 MR. HAKLAY: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Fisher Scientific was a
21 moral ethical company and so am I a moral
22 ethical human being. And we would not
23 deliberately, if we had knowledge, sell a
24 product that would hurt somebody.
25 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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1 Q. You know you were asked several
2 questions today from counsel where you responded
3 that you didn't recall the answer to the
4 question. These events that you were asked
5 about in large part occurred between 35 and 40
6 years ago; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: I don't have any other
9 questions.
10 MR. HAKLAY: Does anybody in the room
11 have any questions? Okay.
12 I have a couple of questions. Can we
13 go on? It won't take long.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. And then I better
15 notify somebody out there --
16 MR. HAKLAY: I have what I think is
17 just a few minutes of questioning.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay, sir.
19
20 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY:
21
22 Q. Congratulations, by the way.
23 Mr. Williams went through your curriculum vitae
24 or your resume -- or whatever you want to call
25 it -- with you, correct?
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1 A. I call it a resume.
2 Q. I just didn't want to get it wrong.
3 And you talked about all your experience and
4 your organizations, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That you've spoken to and you've
7 lectured to or that you've written to or that
8 you're a member of, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you've said when it comes to OSHA
11 compliance, I think you said not to brag, you
12 said, I'm considered somewhat of an expert on
13 OSHA compliance, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you even list some of the
16 things you've lectured about like fire safety in
17 this document, that's the first defendant
18 exhibit, right?
19 A. I guess I do.
20 Q. Okay. Did you talk about OSHA
21 compliance with asbestos standards to these
22 groups?
23 A. If it came up, yes.
24 Q. Do you specifically recall ever being
25 asked to come speak to a group about OSHA
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1 compliance with asbestos?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And, indeed, I think three different
4 times during our question and answer today you
5 told me that you do not consider yourself an
6 expert on asbestos, correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Okay. You do, however, consider
9 yourself an expert on other safety issues that
10 have corresponding OSHA standards, correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. So you're not afraid to call yourself
13 an expert and you're willing to tell everybody
14 what you are an expert on and what you're not an
15 expert on, right?
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm willing to tell
18 everybody that I'm an expert on something if I'm
19 an expert on something.
20 BY MR. HAKLAY:
21 Q. Right. And you're modest enough to say
22 what you're not an expert on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I think you said when it came to
25 asbestos safety at Fisher, the buck stopped with
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1 you, correct?
2 A. All safety stopped with me.
3 Q. That is absolutely correct. You stated
4 that all -- when it came to safety at Fisher
5 Scientific in any way, the buck stopped with
6 you, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because you were the corporate safety
9 director?
10 A. And the "expert".
11 Q. Right. Even though as you've just
12 acknowledged -- leave that aside.
13 What did you mark the December 3rd 1975
14 letter, sorry, sir? It was one of the defense
15 ones.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Let me be clear.
17 Defense 2.
18 MR. HAKLAY: I managed to keep three
19 documents straight. Can I see these so I can
20 pick something out of it and mess up the order
21 for the court reporter.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at what
24 was marked as Reilly 3 from this morning and
25 Defense Reilly -- I'll put a delta sign --
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1 Defense Reilly 2 from late this afternoon.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. What's marked as Reilly 3 dated January
4 23rd, 1976 refers to the letter -- your letter
5 of December 3, 1975 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the defense exhibit marked this
8 afternoon is your letter of December 3, 1975;
9 isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So one is a response to the
12 other, right?
13 A. It appears that to be the case.
14 Q. And in your letter, the December 3rd
15 one, you gave your belief as to what the OSHA
16 standard applies to, right?
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
18 Document speaks for itself. Object to the form.
19 It's also leading.
20 THE WITNESS: I say I interpreted the
21 standard to say this.
22 BY MR. HAKLAY:
23 Q. And you say that certain products you
24 believe are exempt from the standard for the
25 specific reason that their use doesn't liberate
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1 airborne fibers, right?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
3 Document speaks for itself.
4 THE WITNESS: That's what I say here,
5 but I also believe that they do not cause health
6 hazards.
7 BY MR. HAKLAY:
8 Q. I'm not asking about that.
9 A. Well --
10 Q. In this letter to OSHA --
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Let him finish his
12 answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm answering it that way
14 because fire blankets, finger cots, gloves and
15 mats, nobody in the world had any knowledge of
16 those products and a health hazard. I didn't
17 say that specifically.
18 BY MR. HAKLAY:
19 Q. Specifically in the letter to OSHA you
20 believed those products were exempt from the
21 OSHA standards because their use doesn't
22 liberate asbestos fibers?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And in his response to you, someone
25 signed it for Mr. Rhone, I think we've pointed
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1 out, doesn't state that they're exempt because
2 they don't liberate fibers. He actually says in
3 the second paragraph that the standard doesn't
4 apply to customer use of those products,
5 correct?
6 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. The document
7 speaks for itself.
8 THE WITNESS: I guess.
9 BY MR. HAKLAY:
10 Q. Isn't that what it says in the second
11 paragraph?
12 A. And not addressed by this standard.
13 Q. And indeed to respond to your term of
14 liberating airborne fibers, the response says,
15 "the release and extent of release of airborne
16 fibers can only be determined by monitoring,"
17 correct? Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And no monitoring of those products
20 sold through the Fisher catalog was ever ordered
21 or done by Fisher while you were the person at
22 whose desk the buck stopped, correct?
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form.
24 THE WITNESS: Because they didn't
25 liberate airborne contaminants.
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1 BY MR. HAKLAY:
2 Q. No monitoring was ever done during your
3 tenure at Fisher Scientific of those products
4 for airborne asbestos release?
5 A. That is correct because there's no need
6 to.
7 Q. Let me see if I have any other
8 questions. You can put those down. I don't
9 have any other questions about those.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. You mentioned the National Safety
12 Council. It's on your resume somewhere.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Let me try to find out where. Counsel,
15 do you know where it is?
16 A. Where it's located? In Chicago.
17 Q. Where it's located on your resume.
18 A. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Here it is under "Certificates,
20 Diplomas and Awards." You have a certificate of
21 recognition in a fire science course from the
22 National Safety Council and congratulations.
23 Were you a member -- was Fisher a member of the
24 National Safety Council when you were there?
25 A. Sure.
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1 Q. When you joined Fisher Scientific in
2 1972, was the company a member of the National
3 Safety Council?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When did they become one?
6 A. When I got there.
7 Q. Did you have something to do with that,
8 it sounds like you did?
9 A. I had everything to do with it. I said
10 to Fisher, and I'm repeating that they listen to
11 what I had to say, I said, we're going to join
12 the National Safety Council.
13 Q. Why did you tell them that that is
14 important that they pay the dues and join the
15 council?
16 A. Because that's the leading safety
17 authority in the world.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And the leading library of research in
20 the world.
21 MR. HAKLAY: That is all I have for
22 you.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Nothing further.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 MR. HAKLAY: We are done for the day.
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1 I appreciate your patience. It's been a long
2 day and I know you've never done this before.
3 THE WITNESS: I haven't. Thank you.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
5 tape six from today's deposition of John Reilly.
6 We're going off the record at the time now is
7 5:26 p.m.
8
9 (Whereupon, the deposition
10 concluded at 5:26 p.m.)
11
12 * * * * *
13
14
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1 STATE OF NEW YORK)
2 SS:
3 COUNTY OF ERIE)
4
5
6 I, MICHELE CANNATA-SMITH, a Notary
7 Public in and for the State of New York, County
8 of Erie, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that the proceedings
9 were taken down by me in a verbatim manner by
10 means of Machine Shorthand on March 1, 2011,
11 that the proceedings were taken to be used in
12 the above-entitled action.
13 I further CERTIFY that the
14 above-described transcript constitutes a true,
15 accurate and complete transcript of the
16 testimony.
17
18
19
20
21
22 MICHELE CANNATA-SMITH,
23 Notary Public, RPR, CRR
24
25
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& 5:2,9,13,17,21 6:46:8,13,17,21 7:1,58:22 9:25 19:9,2420:4,18 21:21 22:1723:9,18,18 24:6,1331:20 303:25
0
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11-847-3d 294:511/16/10 292:911/22/78 3:24
212:1411/28/1978 221:1311/28/78 4:5 221:611/6/78 3:23 199:231111 8:611:07 62:1411:17 62:14,1711th 195:15 239:1
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1617 6:91650 5:10168 3:1916th 7:217 4:13 49:16 51:25
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329:25 331:8 336:919102 7:319103 5:4 6:10 7:719106 5:2319130 5:111930s 117:101954 302:91957 302:91960s 11:25 12:1,11961 18:2,22 303:141969 22:3 304:91970s 70:18,21,23
71:8,24 84:8,1285:6 86:5,14 87:488:6,22 90:1 92:11111:9 122:25138:15 175:15,22176:11,25 231:16
1971 26:24 135:8,14135:19 137:2146:11
1972 18:21,22 19:2138:11 44:23,25 50:551:22 52:12,18 53:655:21 56:11 65:479:8,8,18 134:11135:5,14 231:6,12304:9 305:13 348:2
1973 79:221974 149:1 150:25
151:15 152:24153:24 157:20
173:11,211975 158:5,19
328:19 330:1 331:1331:22 332:3343:13 344:5,8
1976 159:18 160:17264:6 328:18 344:4
1977 169:8 174:6,18177:6 178:16184:18
1978 191:2,6 193:23194:19 195:12,15196:24 200:4 205:6205:7 212:23214:11 215:4 220:4220:10 222:6223:16 225:1,9227:2,19 228:21230:12 232:12234:2 236:23237:24 239:1,15,16242:12 243:17244:19,19,25247:10,17,25 248:2250:25 252:6 257:4271:19 272:10294:23 297:20332:14 333:13334:11 336:8
1979 278:15 281:23284:16 285:19287:20 335:3 336:3338:7
1981 46:7 316:51986 49:22 50:5,8
305:131988 39:241989 17:12 39:24,25
50:8 52:21 92:5199 3:231990 154:51996 40:91998 41:91:11 131:11,15
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2 3:16 4:17 133:23139:7 148:10,11311:24,24 328:10328:14,15 330:21343:17 344:1
2,037 297:10,1120 67:14 232:12000 42:112001 5:4 42:112010 1:192011 2:9 8:4 243:7
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7
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8
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9
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9/28/78 296:20297:12
9/7/71 3:15 133:25908 137:10 138:7
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97 301:598 301:599.9 154:20
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55:5 116:16,25149:22 238:4 333:5339:14,16 343:3
academy 26:2527:11 32:7 304:20304:22
accept 23:19 132:24336:9
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accepted 47:22 48:3accident 26:16 28:5
34:13accidents 306:11accomplishments
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270:20 328:19ad 147:13add 296:24addition 17:5,13
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156:10 203:25269:8 277:2 308:8308:10
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156:8,13administrator
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279:16 326:1advertising 56:19
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advise 305:17 332:2advised 297:13affect 274:5afield 35:16afraid 320:7,11,18
320:20 342:12afternoon 131:17,18
132:1 190:5,6 203:9266:20 269:2,5270:24 344:1,8
age 201:1 205:23,25207:21 208:3,14211:19 212:6
agencies 34:17agency 47:4 301:11
301:16agenda 126:1,2,2agent 315:13ages 299:25 300:15ago 14:17 27:18
44:2,4 66:11 72:672:12 77:17 92:1499:19 108:11 146:4153:25 176:17198:14 204:6 340:6
agree 89:1 150:23151:3 287:22 329:3329:4,10,13 335:18
agreed 205:9ahead 39:17 48:16
50:13 53:15,1957:21,22 77:12,13121:21 128:25144:2 153:9 154:4206:15 254:10315:19 334:5339:15
aid 26:15,17 115:19128:9,10,12,14129:2,4,13 307:5
air 119:7,11,12,13119:14 120:18124:3 139:7 169:25170:14,24 171:16172:1 177:3 189:4261:23
airborne 158:11160:7 166:14 167:2167:8,13 200:19,25201:19 205:22228:2 231:3,18255:11 257:23258:19 259:4260:10 261:15263:9,18 264:10,16265:2 323:23331:10,14 345:1346:14,15,25 347:4
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8:13 192:12 193:17193:21 194:5195:12,22 212:22213:8,9,12,15 214:2215:17,18 216:6220:20 223:14
alerted 183:13alfano 5:17allegany 34:17 40:6
311:7 312:21allegations 282:18allied 46:7 49:22allow 274:25 300:8
335:14allowed 324:15alternate 191:18,21
217:14,18,25alternative 219:12
271:4alternatives 219:23
269:9
aluminum 174:3235:14 236:3
american 1:13 6:248:11 305:22 316:15
amount 100:18101:16 102:24177:2 288:12315:14
amphibole 137:10138:11,15
amy 6:1analyst 302:25anderson 180:24
182:13,24 185:13186:21 187:11,16187:24 188:4 204:7204:15 223:7 233:3233:7,8
anderson's 185:24186:4,5
andrew 1:3 8:8 10:7133:8
answer 11:1,4 12:2113:1,5 14:8,1515:17 17:18 18:1519:16 28:17 29:7,1230:10 34:10 36:1937:15 43:10 45:448:16,17 49:6 50:1451:17,18 53:11 54:957:23 58:11 59:9,1160:11,12 61:13,2262:6 63:13 71:375:3 76:14 77:978:7 80:1,15 81:1983:6 84:2 86:1,1086:21,24 87:2588:11,20 89:5,6,1290:23,25 92:2393:15 95:5 96:1497:5 98:6,18,2599:15 101:8,10,22102:2,6 103:7,13105:15 106:2,19108:24 109:17
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244:20 245:2246:12 247:5,15252:2 254:1,2,8,17256:12 258:5,23259:25 261:10262:4 263:14264:24 266:9,12267:2,3 268:22271:18 274:6,25275:2 277:14281:11 283:1,4,6284:3 289:9 290:15290:18 291:4 296:8297:24 313:5318:14 319:21,23321:19,20 322:6324:12 330:7 340:3342:4 345:12
answered 31:1 32:759:8 63:11 76:1386:9 87:24 94:1098:24 99:23 108:23110:24 117:5123:13 130:23140:3 168:7 177:11178:22,25 197:7205:9,15 208:8,17209:20 215:7 217:5217:15 218:18,23218:25 220:24223:15 227:9 235:1238:23 239:25253:23 259:24274:24 284:3299:12 330:9333:21
answering 41:23245:5 254:22 274:2345:13
answers 164:1 195:9199:15 228:11249:1 266:21 267:6271:12
anybody 30:13 39:739:10 63:17 67:22
68:1 80:13 82:11,2085:23 98:8 100:5101:3 111:15,21112:12,21,24115:10 116:3,9129:24 144:19146:12 167:10171:24,25 188:2205:9 215:5 216:12225:8 235:20,21239:2,15 243:12245:4 261:22 262:3265:20 275:23277:1,18 298:12,15332:2 334:18340:10
anymore 204:9anyway 195:10apologize 172:8
194:15 258:14apology 336:10apparently 31:18
156:22 254:11289:25 329:23
appear 132:18148:24 184:2 192:7206:24 252:19
appeared 10:15appearing 5:5,8,11
5:15,19,23 6:3,6,106:15,19,23 7:3,7
appears 150:9 169:1169:22 172:14173:1 180:22210:17,22 212:18221:9 336:4 344:13
apples 162:15applicable 316:11applied 188:12,16applies 344:16apply 33:22 167:22
200:18 224:2 331:3331:9 336:15 346:4
appreciate 165:3193:16 195:23
198:6 200:16220:21,22 331:7349:1
appreciated 331:16appreciation 198:7approach 279:18approached 174:17appropriate 58:3
100:24 154:9approval 128:14
129:5approve 56:10
128:21 152:19155:11 327:8
approved 56:9,2083:10 89:11 90:891:6 128:10 129:3155:1,17 213:17,19214:14 215:1 327:3327:17
approving 319:21approximate 45:6approximately 8:4
41:9,10 42:8 45:845:12 53:6 117:19235:9 296:20 301:4325:12
approximating 12:2approximation
11:20,21april 26:24 278:15
284:16arch 5:10ardman 16:8area 27:7,8 35:14
40:24 41:6 100:18101:17 102:24
areas 48:5arena 211:12 291:6argumentative
87:23 101:22102:15 164:24165:19 220:7,12256:10 281:10
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158:8,11 159:16160:24 161:11162:4 169:20 170:2170:15,25 171:17173:5,7,24 174:2,2174:3,14,15,22175:4,20 176:11177:1,2,7,15,20,21178:7,13 179:5180:5,25 182:21,25183:20 184:5185:15,21,25 187:3187:18,20 188:5,12188:14 189:1,5191:14,15,16,19,20191:21,23 193:8196:7 197:1,5,8,8200:17,19,21201:14,19 202:8,11202:18 204:8,18208:1,12,20 209:8209:25 210:2,10213:22 215:11216:18 217:8,14,20217:25 219:2,16221:14 222:1,2,4,10222:22 223:7,10,25224:7,8,24 225:11225:23 226:6,12,18226:25 227:21228:15,21 229:4230:3,9,14,22 231:8231:18 232:18234:13,15,20 235:8235:11,13,15,16236:4,20,24 237:7237:25 238:12239:22 240:7,8,13240:22 241:2242:12,15,17245:11,19,23 246:2246:9,18,22 247:2248:2,4 249:6,18,25251:4,12 255:2,8,10255:25 257:5,13,19
257:22 258:25259:4 261:14,24262:9,12 268:19269:7 271:2,18273:2,24 274:20277:6,22 278:17279:16 281:4,5,25282:6,13,17 283:10284:22,25 286:9,16287:21 288:22289:4,22 291:23293:1,19 294:5,9,19295:2,5,20 296:2,14297:12,18 298:3318:23 319:3,5320:5,15 321:2,4322:1 323:3,12,14323:21,23,24324:24 325:1,17,18325:23 326:6,7,14331:4,7,10,12,25332:17,18,18,25333:19,20,23 336:8336:11,14,15338:23 339:12341:21 342:1,6,25345:22 347:4
asbestosis 139:9,13139:20 140:4,8142:22 143:11,19146:14
aside 148:9 155:23168:16 189:16212:9 226:1 231:25241:19 272:1 287:5343:12
asked 11:1 33:237:15 58:11 59:860:25 62:6 63:1166:4 74:13 76:1378:9,12,17,20 80:180:12 86:9 87:2488:21 89:20 90:2393:14 94:2 98:2499:23 103:22
108:23 109:17110:5,23 111:16117:5 118:2 119:1120:4 123:12125:24 126:15128:6 129:10,14130:22 142:9143:25 147:13152:5 154:17,21155:19,19 161:8162:12 166:22167:22 172:25177:11 178:2,6,22178:24 185:1 196:4196:16,17 199:4203:18 204:13207:14 208:8,17,18209:19,19 210:6217:4 218:16,23220:20 224:4 227:9227:24 230:12,24234:13,25 239:25249:12,15 252:15253:23 256:11258:5 259:24 261:9262:4 263:14264:24 266:20267:2,6 268:5269:13 270:13,15274:24 285:6286:23 299:12301:13 312:12317:2 318:17333:13 334:13337:14,24 338:15340:1,4 341:25
asking 31:17 60:689:3 145:11 146:9162:10 165:15,16175:7 179:1 207:19218:17 234:18235:19 244:1 247:6277:17,20 282:22329:6,24 334:20345:8
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311:23associations 312:4assume 79:23
151:17 163:8,10164:11,14 165:17166:8 239:11 294:4
assumes 28:1658:10 62:5 81:1883:6 89:3 92:2297:3 111:24 117:14118:1 121:13124:16 129:22133:19 140:17141:4 195:20 196:3215:21 217:3220:12 223:18225:5 230:23 237:1239:6 244:22 245:1247:14 256:10264:23 265:15271:21 296:6
assuming 71:790:21 112:10,11120:2 141:21158:21 166:8
ate 118:16attached 222:3
234:11,17 242:19273:5,12,13
attachment 242:22273:11,15
attempt 120:15121:5 141:10185:20
attempted 35:5282:3
attempting 188:17258:17
attempts 244:24attend 55:7,11,16attended 34:2 55:12
315:1 318:7attention 90:15attorney 8:20 9:24
15:11 16:6 65:266:25 67:21,2368:16 74:2,12 299:7
attorneys 8:1515:10 298:17
authoring 222:14authorities 37:7authority 40:5,14
47:16 312:20348:17
automatically 47:2047:25 48:2,3
available 104:16,18107:11,12 119:3,5122:22 231:2284:24
avenue 5:7 6:22average 241:1
296:21 297:11avoid 240:9avoided 238:12avoiding 237:8
238:1,11,15 239:22239:23 240:8286:13 325:25
award 315:8,25316:2
awards 314:13,15317:12 347:20
aware 17:4,14195:16 196:24224:11 227:20228:1 231:4 245:10294:22
b
b 3:11 4:1 5:14 9:14235:11 293:16294:5 297:5
bachelor 17:23303:6,10,12
back 17:6 44:1362:17 71:19,2176:15 79:7,8 84:1784:24 87:3 89:1195:2 97:10,17 111:4112:21 116:17,19117:1,10,12,18119:17 131:14136:4 138:14139:16 140:6147:25 148:4160:17 173:4 174:6181:7 184:18 185:6190:2 193:23197:25 214:11215:5 216:16 220:4220:10 221:2228:21 230:8,17239:3,15 241:12243:11,12 248:20249:3 252:19253:21 254:4,12263:25 264:6 265:7265:7,13,25 266:13267:16 269:6270:25 271:16275:12 277:3,9,18285:19 299:2302:10 303:15307:18 334:11
background 69:7291:23 301:18302:2,2
backing 235:16bad 20:9,10badgering 164:25ballpark 309:17balls 19:10bandwagon 226:19bankrupt 42:7,10bar 291:25barbara 1:10 10:9
based 111:20 146:6162:2 177:25197:23 211:21218:3 219:5 230:13267:15 280:17329:16
basic 18:7 26:1431:2 53:16 301:13
basically 31:22,2533:19 51:13 54:17295:20 314:1
basis 25:10 178:4194:5
batteries 24:22 25:735:18
battery 301:14bayercrop 7:4bears 317:13beating 262:6bechtel 7:4becoming 164:23bed 226:20began 231:13beginning 49:21,22
62:16 117:2 131:13157:18 184:14190:1 248:19264:19 299:1
behalf 8:2,17 157:19beings 121:7belabor 310:19
330:11belief 15:21 97:25
130:18,21,24231:15 265:24280:11,12 321:2323:11,21 327:14327:16 344:15
believe 15:8,11,1315:19 16:7 17:1922:3,20 26:21,2231:1 32:6,6,22 48:948:10 51:19 52:356:2 57:8 70:1972:19 74:1,3 77:2
[assistant - believe] Page 6
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
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believed 258:1339:12 345:20
bell 236:9belongs 221:2ben 180:1 322:13,18bertles 7:10 8:2
best 11:25 193:4242:20 246:4 283:4287:15
better 11:10 175:16196:16 227:12276:3 318:14340:14
betzler 21:17beyond 31:5 162:12
184:4 229:15282:24
big 25:17 278:25298:13 308:13
bigger 36:2bill 204:15 288:17
289:15 290:1,2,3338:16,17
bit 26:22 75:1487:13 148:1 167:15304:22
blackburn 1:18 5:125:16,20,24 6:24 7:47:8 8:12 10:11133:7 329:1
blank 243:7blankets 200:23
202:6,8,10 307:6331:13 336:20345:14
blessing 314:24blocks 235:11 236:2blvd 6:9board 180:1 275:21
316:21bob 287:19boca 134:25 135:2,6
135:7 136:2 144:24146:5,20,22
body 192:7 195:24195:25
boeing 314:5boggs 6:1boiler 119:18,20
122:14
bomb 34:18 37:4,6,6book 33:10 316:25books 33:10 210:9born 281:14bosick 5:17boss 21:15 25:20
232:25 233:11bottom 169:11,17
181:2 222:19232:21 285:10303:23 307:19
bought 54:4,12161:21 273:20
boulevard 7:6 8:7bounds 291:7,8box 164:4,4 165:25brag 341:11brand 305:21break 63:6 112:7
132:3 148:1 189:19232:2 298:19
breakfast 68:18breaks 131:23 132:4breathe 122:20,21brett 232:13 233:11
233:18briefly 301:16briefs 104:22bring 306:11broad 142:5,11
148:3 175:17,24302:17
broadcasts 303:1broke 119:7brought 80:19
164:20 268:18bruce 336:2brunswick 6:14brush 336:19bryers 5:10bs 303:9buck 307:13,17
342:25 343:5346:22
build 306:12building 42:24
67:17,18 122:14270:16
built 45:14bureaucracy 305:24burn 153:11,14burns 150:5bus 312:22business 18:4 85:15
226:20 249:22,23283:14 290:17297:1 326:1 338:19
butt 280:25buy 327:11
c
c 5:1 180:23 181:1192:11 193:17232:15 235:13242:4 273:5 274:5288:18 289:14313:20
cabinets 55:2cairns 192:11,19,22calcium 137:12call 24:4 34:22
42:19 44:8 73:11,1873:23 74:9 75:777:4 78:11 132:24133:2 181:16201:22 231:16270:3,7 289:23328:14 340:24341:1 342:12
called 2:2 9:1 40:2354:13 76:2 77:7,1878:17 79:1,2 87:16105:3 143:5 169:23173:2 174:14 177:7215:7 240:15 241:9293:1 295:4 312:7
calling 156:14 270:4calls 14:14 15:17
17:17 19:16 43:9
[believe - calls] Page 7
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
49:5 61:13 76:1877:2 78:25 93:12126:19 153:23163:25 164:9 182:9184:25 189:9 217:3219:19 228:10229:6 237:1 241:6246:11 265:16267:19 270:18271:22 281:20296:6 326:3
canada 45:13,15,17307:11 308:16
canadian 311:24312:9 317:19
cancer 139:15140:13,19 141:11141:14 142:2 144:4146:21 191:17216:18 217:6,10,16217:22 218:15,22219:11,22 226:22228:5,7,16 229:11229:18 230:3,15231:3,18 241:2259:5 261:16 269:8271:2,19 277:6,19277:20,23 282:10282:11
cancerous 140:22cannata 2:6 350:6
350:22cannes 315:24 316:2capable 82:6capacity 268:2capital 295:8caps 193:15caption 8:8captioned 2:3car 66:12carbon 181:6,8
187:23 232:21cardboard 235:13
295:21 296:16
care 211:5 296:24career 31:15 33:24
53:1 55:13 59:16105:11 122:4309:15 310:23318:3
careful 214:3carl 234:16carolyn 5:21carpenter 6:8case 1:19 8:8 9:6,9
10:6,8,10,20 61:675:1 129:13 183:21193:7 316:12344:13
cases 8:21 10:3,5328:24 329:8335:10,13
castaloy 180:25182:22
catalog 3:16,1979:10,15,18,22 80:980:18 81:3,15,23,2382:1 83:9 84:14,1884:22 85:17 86:6,1787:6,15 88:23 89:1090:12,18 106:15107:21 108:20110:20 111:9112:16 127:11,16128:2 129:17141:19 146:11148:12,25 149:1,9149:19,22,24 151:6151:10 153:1,20154:7,7 155:23161:24 167:23168:12,20 169:2,8169:19 170:13173:11 174:11177:6 178:15179:17,21,24 193:2193:11 201:22202:3,11 213:4,4,23213:25 215:19
216:6 242:15 256:8257:6 258:18 260:5261:21 263:8264:16 273:4294:19 295:1326:24 327:1,4,13333:18 346:20
catalogs 55:22 56:482:2,12,23 83:4,2584:8 85:5 87:1488:5 90:1,9 105:24108:3,9 109:13,24121:8 124:14141:22 150:24154:10 161:2 193:5202:9,18 236:13246:23 248:5
categories 235:10235:10,24 236:1302:17 309:12
category 142:5288:11 303:3
cause 109:3,9110:10 124:4 130:7146:14 191:16196:8 201:1 205:23207:22 212:6216:18 217:6,10,16217:22 218:15,21219:11,22 227:21229:11 230:14231:3,9 259:4,5261:16 269:7 271:2277:19,20 339:7345:5
caused 196:8 229:18230:3 261:15
causes 140:8 141:11146:21 226:23
causing 271:19277:6
caustics 150:5caution 197:17cautions 83:24 84:7
84:13
cbs 5:16cc 181:3,5cc'd 69:19 184:18,23
185:6cedrone 5:21ceiling 122:14cenname 232:13,14
233:1,7,9 234:18237:11 238:5
cenname's 232:25center 215:11
242:12 245:23325:18 326:7
centers 197:5242:16,18 245:11246:22 247:2 248:4249:18 289:4,5319:6 321:4 323:14323:23 325:1332:19 333:19,24
central 180:21212:19 221:10,13242:7 278:12287:17
centre 5:18 6:18century 117:2ceramic 242:18
289:5certain 12:25 48:4
107:9 122:10 123:7124:2 200:22201:20 231:3237:17 262:20328:6 344:23
certainly 34:23129:10,10 169:8224:7 253:17329:20 335:19
certificate 314:20347:20
certificates 314:12347:19
certification 46:2447:2,3 48:5,8 49:3129:9
[calls - certification] Page 8
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
certifications 34:2134:23
certified 34:25 35:235:7 37:22,25 38:339:5,11 46:19,2247:10,14 48:21,2349:1,9
certify 47:5 350:8350:13
cetera 200:24205:20,21 295:19296:4
cfd 295:8,9,14,15cfr 336:9chad 6:8chairman 180:1chance 131:19
157:14 194:25change 49:17 50:6,9
50:22 51:7 62:8248:11
changed 50:2 51:11changing 288:21characterization
247:3charge 35:13 40:4
45:20,21 47:5 50:184:22 85:4 93:3112:24 113:2,3,7,11154:19 179:21,23182:15 185:13192:23 204:7 233:2233:10 279:5 306:4312:20
charged 44:21charles 191:5 252:6
253:2 272:11334:12
chasing 268:7chaudri 6:13check 301:18chemical 24:21 28:6
52:6 103:10 114:3,8142:7,11 191:18,22217:14,25 227:17
311:24 312:9chemicals 25:8
53:21 138:21 142:3142:5 143:6 297:9
chemist 136:6142:10
chemistry 18:7 31:231:9
cherin 5:13chevron 6:11chewed 208:22chicago 5:7 8:24
53:21 192:24 194:7242:11 243:4347:16
chided 238:5,10children 198:2,7,15
205:4,11,16 215:6215:12,17 216:13217:1,12,15 218:12218:14,17 219:1,17219:21 220:9223:13,15,19238:23 239:3,15,19244:3,20,25 245:5245:12 248:1 249:4249:14,16 250:3,15250:17 252:17254:4 265:12,17266:22 267:4,10,16268:3,9,14 271:1,17274:19 276:5299:23,24
choice 132:25chromel 289:14circumstance
118:21circumstances
130:20city 63:1civil 2:5claim 133:11clamor 226:16clamps 294:3,10,12
294:20 295:19
296:4clara 318:16clarification 90:24
158:6 200:16 331:7331:15
clarify 63:4 123:18123:21 128:24249:1 304:21329:25
clarifying 124:9class 31:9 55:10
268:19classes 22:18,24
30:4,7 31:12,1633:24 55:12,17
classroom 31:2332:3 33:20 34:255:8 245:20,24246:20
cleaning 336:18clear 15:24 112:19
283:18 290:15320:23 322:11323:9 325:15328:24 343:16
clearance 301:11,19301:20,23 302:11302:13
clearing 79:7clearly 138:7cleveland 284:21client 23:8,10,12
24:5,5,7clients 20:8,17,22
21:20 22:15 41:4304:4
cloth 235:15 262:8,9262:11 274:16,17
coach 176:22coast 314:6coated 174:3 235:11
235:13code 291:25coffee 280:23,23
281:7
cohen 5:2 8:22 9:24coke 24:22 25:7
35:18collaboration
210:22collected 54:5college 18:25 19:1,2
311:7collided 90:6colon 280:1come 57:25 80:4,7
107:1,4 125:25139:19 147:19149:24 160:19201:4 209:11 220:2233:4 256:6 318:17341:25
comes 297:2 341:10coming 55:10 74:5
74:24 107:9 171:13commencing 2:9commented 290:14comments 83:17
200:20 221:25337:6
commerce 5:3commission 213:21committee 40:25
41:6common 1:16communicated
188:4communicating
210:19communication
94:21 232:11284:15
communications75:4
community 109:8311:7
companies 19:13,2019:25 20:17 25:541:4 50:2 55:23104:15,21 107:19
[certifications - companies] Page 9
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
107:20 108:2161:22 310:8 312:5
company 5:24 6:315:15,20 16:1 17:1519:4,6,10 24:15,1825:4,10,17,23 26:1926:21,24 27:1128:11,13 29:2,7,2531:8,11 32:14 33:2234:3,6,8 38:3,640:20 43:14 51:2252:1 54:12 58:264:14 73:19 79:13127:3 148:25154:21 156:18169:2 171:6 180:22182:19 187:12190:18 193:2 200:3212:20 213:2221:11 232:12242:3 249:22272:11 274:11278:13 284:15287:18 304:8308:21 309:13322:12,16,17339:21 348:2
compared 162:15competition 213:19competitors 182:24
183:11,15compile 234:19
235:20compiled 33:6
236:23compiling 85:5complete 106:18
114:23 123:14149:22 243:7350:15
completed 17:22234:17 301:15
completely 162:7completing 34:24
complexity 23:1226:13 36:1
compliance 27:679:14 188:20213:25 224:15225:1,10,21 304:23305:7,10,25 306:12308:11,18 309:9310:4,9 311:12312:8 313:13314:25 337:11341:11,13,21 342:1
complicated 75:12comply 188:17
224:8 306:24327:10,11,23,24328:7 336:14337:14
component 22:931:24 32:4
components 186:7186:14
compound 37:1453:10 71:2 147:25262:2
concentrated 50:18concern 219:23
318:23concerned 58:14,15
190:18 191:12,16195:5 198:4 216:17246:17 249:4 266:5266:7 268:14,24
concerning 72:1774:16 75:1 94:13125:3 159:15200:20 222:4234:12 240:8,13282:18 336:8
concerns 79:17124:21 126:10167:25 168:5183:18 204:15269:8 326:8
conclude 230:13293:23
concluded 349:10conclusion 14:14
43:9 60:9 118:19120:14 121:10,13145:11 229:16,16259:21
concrete 61:20condition 25:12conditions 28:12conduct 108:7conducted 27:14
91:14conducting 222:7
226:3 251:8confer 114:19 211:2conference 11:14conferred 212:4confidential 278:14
291:22confined 235:8confirm 96:2conflict 16:25confronted 174:17confuse 94:3 300:20confused 11:8 26:23
66:16 75:18,21,2299:17 144:18263:15
confusing 64:2275:14
confusion 15:14320:25
congratulations299:21 340:22347:22
conjecture 223:4connect 244:24connected 78:3connection 28:25
215:15,22,25 239:9246:17 247:7,25249:13,15 250:2,14250:16,17 332:21
consider 18:8 142:6238:14 342:5,8
considered 47:1855:4 305:9 341:12
constantly 31:15,1657:13 58:4 114:20
constitutes 350:14construction 119:17
122:13consultant 40:18
41:18 42:2 44:1552:23
consultation 59:3consulted 58:20consulting 37:1
40:22 42:22 43:1143:22 44:15 57:14108:16,17 128:11128:15,17 129:3,5
consumers 55:2381:16,24 82:13,2483:4 86:7,17 105:24106:16,24 107:5108:14,21 109:14110:1 111:12127:18 153:1 177:9
cont 4:1contact 37:10 72:17
73:1 76:7,11 85:385:16 93:4,18 94:694:8 194:4 216:11
contacted 72:2373:7 93:21 187:25188:3 317:2
contacting 93:8contain 19:13
130:13,14 222:10226:12 234:19249:25 262:9,12279:16 295:5
contained 63:9,1986:23 87:9,19 88:688:8 90:2 95:23,24106:5,15 112:18130:7 151:5,9,17
[companies - contained] Page 10
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
161:11 187:3,19189:1 202:11 224:7226:6 236:20 246:2251:11 296:2339:12
containing 61:1087:5,16 88:23105:23 108:8,19109:23 110:17111:8,17 119:24124:2 127:10129:16 147:10150:24 162:4183:20 185:15188:12 189:5 197:1202:8,18 209:8210:2 230:2 236:24245:19 246:19281:5 294:10,19318:24 319:3 320:5320:16 321:2 322:1323:3,12,22 324:24325:17 326:6,14332:17,25 338:24
contains 137:11contaminants
346:25contamination
150:6contempra 295:10content 75:4 94:20context 142:1 227:4
230:23continue 36:24
41:15 289:16311:16 338:17,25
continued 16:2continuing 222:8
226:4 251:9 300:5,9329:18 335:14,20
continuous 329:14continuously 240:4contracting 231:17contradict 185:20
contrast 169:24170:9 171:15 172:2173:1
contributed 317:22contributions
316:19conventions 308:9
308:10,23,25conversation 12:8
81:12 221:24conversations 14:17
14:19 213:16254:13,24 255:21
conversely 12:13cooperation 201:5
331:15copied 232:21copies 181:8 190:16copy 168:22,23
169:1 181:6 187:23190:10 200:1212:17 255:7 272:9284:8 285:14 286:1
core 18:12corner 190:25 253:2corp 6:24corporate 16:2
38:17 49:17 57:280:6,8 100:10 104:8105:21 116:12152:23 154:20156:17 194:4 201:6207:4 213:2 227:2229:13 234:5 242:6252:10 260:11,14261:19 263:5272:14 306:13331:17 343:8
corporation 1:206:11,11 7:8 8:1245:22 46:8
correct 31:21,2435:10 41:21 46:1,249:12 61:6 71:2073:9,10 75:25 76:3
76:8 77:25 78:182:3,8,9 85:20 91:493:22 99:21 101:18104:9 108:15111:22 123:9128:20,23 135:2,4135:16 136:16137:2,3,12,16,19139:1 143:12,14144:25 145:5,8150:10 155:1156:10,11,18,19,24157:8,9,21 169:3,4172:15 173:5,6,9,10174:4,5 182:5,11183:1 189:14 192:8193:11 194:9198:19 203:2 204:4204:5,9,19,20207:11 212:7,20,21213:6,7,10 218:12218:19 236:14,15237:22 241:18242:6 243:20 246:5247:11,19 253:12256:1,2,22 257:23257:24 258:2 264:7264:11 266:22267:7,17 268:3,25269:9 276:20 286:1286:2 288:14 289:5292:12,13,17 293:2293:5 295:5 296:13297:8 305:14 335:1340:25 341:4,8,13342:6,7,10,11 343:1343:3,6 344:5345:23 346:5,17,22347:5
corrected 135:13correctly 123:5
137:23 139:11150:18 158:13160:10 170:4184:11 191:24
201:8 203:25210:24 214:7222:11 242:23255:15 273:8279:24 285:3293:21 294:7295:23 296:12297:15 331:19
corresponded 36:1136:13
correspondence63:17 69:20 85:1095:16 159:9 201:14222:3 226:16234:12 258:1 276:7276:23 281:20326:2 331:25
corresponding342:10
cots 174:3 200:23201:22 288:11331:12 345:14
council 27:15 28:434:19 41:19 42:4104:23,24 314:20315:3 316:22347:12,22,24 348:3348:12,15
counsel 6:15 54:973:4 75:11 142:25144:8 147:16149:18 153:5,7156:5 162:6 164:23165:5 168:23176:21 178:21180:13 183:3196:22 200:1208:24 232:10264:5 266:8 269:12269:15,16 284:9326:23 328:16,25333:14 335:1,12337:23 340:2347:14
[contained - counsel] Page 11
Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. – A Veritext Company718-983-1234
counsel's 334:13counselor 206:8
265:15 267:20count 100:14counting 102:10,14
102:18 169:20counts 100:8,12county 1:1,9,16
34:17 40:6 311:7312:21 350:3,7
couple 10:7,23 12:625:24 66:10 72:1187:14 142:23,24233:22 272:22279:7 303:19305:15 314:16315:6 332:11340:12
course 27:2 31:3,731:15 35:6 105:10105:13,18 141:23194:1,3 300:10309:20 311:5,6313:20 314:8,22318:3 347:21
courses 27:13 30:1630:20,23 34:24 48:4105:11 311:2,8,9
court 1:1,8,16 2:68:3,16 10:16 12:5134:5 343:21
cover 149:19 169:1covered 108:12
162:5 236:6 259:13259:16 260:7,8,15262:21
covering 122:13coverings 119:22crack 208:3create 12:17 13:3
131:1creating 13:2creation 198:3credible 109:5 122:6
127:2 130:5 168:13
230:4 261:13cremonese 284:16
284:18,19,20 285:8criminal 302:2criscuolo 6:1crossed 192:11,13
193:13crr 350:23crum 19:24 20:4,18
21:21 22:17 23:8,1823:18 24:6,13 31:20303:25
csp 35:1 47:8,18,2148:1,3 49:14
cubic 139:7cup 280:22,23curious 191:13current 15:1,3,15
221:25 293:1,4currently 17:7
222:7curriculum 340:23customer 58:16
59:10 60:18,22 61:2126:24 184:3186:24 294:2 307:7307:9,16 324:2,9346:4
customers 44:8 60:580:10 106:6 113:5124:21 126:20141:16,18,19142:15 160:3178:19 187:13238:13,16 239:21240:3,6 260:25261:7,13 264:20306:16,21 321:25
cut 119:6 208:22285:16 337:10
cutting 144:13189:2 209:6 336:16
cv 307:18 311:16
d
d 3:1 6:1,8 180:24181:10 193:17234:16 235:14273:5 274:5
damn 236:15danger 113:20,24
259:11,13 262:22262:22 307:14323:2
dangerous 118:20146:13,14 191:20217:20,23 259:18259:19 321:5,13,16322:2 324:10326:16 327:15
dangers 112:25114:7,7,11 116:15139:19 231:17274:20
daniels 278:16,20278:22
date 8:3 72:9 78:11148:10 168:18180:11 212:11215:4 232:12 244:5244:16 247:12257:9 292:5,14,17292:20,21 294:23330:5,15,19 331:23338:6
dated 134:10 156:16191:1 195:12 200:3205:5 212:23221:13 223:13232:5 241:20242:12 250:24251:23 252:5 272:9278:6 284:16 287:8287:20 330:1,15332:14 333:12336:2 338:4 344:3
dates 26:23 33:2543:25 50:16 52:25
116:21 158:3 174:9david 6:5,17 156:23
156:25 157:8 264:8329:24
day 23:13 25:10,1064:16,20,24 65:1765:24 66:3,7,13,19177:14 190:8 205:7299:9 317:11348:25 349:2
days 36:3 38:24205:7 238:25 244:2244:15
dead 262:6deal 29:16 194:7dealing 114:22dealings 194:2dealt 30:17,20,23
32:12 115:17 277:3dear 158:4 191:11
213:8,15 219:21221:23 242:13254:21 273:1333:17 336:6
death 305:23decade 92:11deceased 10:11december 157:20
158:5,19 159:9232:12 239:1,2,7,14242:12 244:19,25245:8 247:17 248:2252:6 257:3 271:19272:10 275:6,7,12276:12,23 328:18330:1 331:1,22333:13 334:11343:13 344:5,8,14
decide 126:4 264:14decided 24:10 49:10
49:13 77:14 126:13242:14 247:18333:17
deciphered 302:25
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decision 23:18 74:983:23 246:20 247:3248:3 249:17 250:3250:13 325:9,13,16326:5,13 333:23
decisions 289:20defective 9:8,9defendant 5:8,11,15
5:19,23 6:3,6,19,237:7 10:4 300:19328:15 341:17
defendant's 330:21334:25
defendants 1:6,141:21 6:10 7:3 10:4
defense 298:17343:14,17,25 344:1344:7
define 276:3defined 120:3definite 175:11deft 4:16,17,18
300:21 328:10335:5
degree 17:23 47:19303:6,8,9,11
del 134:25 135:2,6,7136:2 144:24 146:5146:20,21
delay 254:22 336:10deliberately 339:23delivered 73:8
132:15delta 343:25deluge 26:15demolition 119:17
122:12,13demotion 51:2dense 148:17dep 269:17department 26:5,6
34:18 36:14 37:352:18,21 56:23 57:377:18 79:2 84:21104:3,8,8 156:6
158:20 184:1,13224:13 290:4306:25 307:1314:17 335:4 336:2
depend 23:11depended 26:12
28:5depending 35:25
37:4depends 42:23
301:17deposition 1:23 2:2
2:4 8:5 9:13 10:1212:8 13:19 14:162:12,16 63:2265:19 67:4,21 68:2172:7,8 74:17,21131:8,13 132:18133:5,6 134:4158:22 169:7189:21 190:1248:19 292:15299:1 301:7 349:5,9
describe 303:4304:2 306:18307:25
described 87:1588:23 203:5 235:24303:18 304:12318:22 350:14
description 3:13 4:3151:9 152:11 173:7
descriptions 88:9deserve 77:18
220:17,18designations 147:20desire 327:12desk 55:2 141:2
346:22despite 328:24detail 303:18 305:12deteriorate 208:3,15deterioration
209:12
determine 111:10127:8 222:7 226:3251:9 259:17307:14
determined 160:8262:23 264:11346:16
deutsch 6:8developing 184:7
187:17development 241:1dewit 6:13die 177:14different 10:3 11:10
27:25 42:22 50:23309:3 318:13328:24 342:3
differentiated 203:9differentiating 99:9diligence 261:12dinsmore 6:17diplomas 34:23
314:12 347:20direct 39:9,21
164:24 165:20169:9 319:2 326:23328:16
directing 234:10directives 183:18directly 265:11,18
307:12director 38:17 49:18
80:5,6,8 100:10105:21 116:13152:23 156:18181:21 194:4 199:8201:7 207:4 227:2229:13 234:5252:10 260:12,15261:19 263:6272:14 305:2,13306:1 331:18 343:9
directors 316:21disapproving
319:21
disciplines 40:5discloses 183:17discontinuance
222:17 338:16discontinue 226:10
279:15 289:15323:7 325:9,13,16326:5,14 332:16
discontinued 325:1325:7
discontinuing 222:8226:4 238:14251:10 290:3332:25 338:23
discover 225:19discuss 65:18,20,23
67:21 68:13 72:2282:21 85:22 87:295:9 142:16
discussed 69:20,2170:1 82:15 95:13275:21 276:6289:12
discussing 83:2210:15
discussion 67:274:23 196:13 287:2326:22
discussions 318:20disipio 5:21dispensed 163:5dispensing 160:6disrespected 284:2dissection 54:6distribute 236:1
256:7 275:8distributed 128:12
229:10,17 237:16261:21 263:8264:15 275:23294:25
distribution 222:9226:5 251:11
distributor 222:2251:4 256:4
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district 192:5332:10 334:1
division 1:1,9 24:2525:1 35:20 53:22192:24,25 193:2194:13 213:6215:13 242:2295:10 304:9
divisions 25:16docket 1:12doctor 47:16,25
48:1,4 52:13,2258:3 60:13,24146:22
doctors 57:10,1458:20,22,23 59:2,660:16 61:1 122:8141:14,15,24142:14 318:12,20
document 3:15 4:1369:11 74:8 83:16,1895:19 103:14 129:9133:21,24 134:9136:15,18,25 137:1137:4,14,22 146:6146:11 150:21152:16 156:6158:14 159:21162:13 168:3,17169:6 170:5 172:18173:16 179:10180:10,12,20 187:6187:7 190:8,9,20191:11 194:21199:21 204:6,12,14223:1 225:25231:24 233:21234:1,10 258:21271:20 278:12284:6,8 285:23287:9 289:2 291:16300:25 314:2328:23 329:7,15,19329:22 333:12334:14,23 335:9,15
335:24 336:3338:10 341:17344:18 345:3 346:6
documentation129:18
documents 63:21,2367:7,25 68:24 69:169:4,15,18 70:5,870:12,17,20,2571:22 72:1,4 83:194:12 95:9 101:25102:9,21 103:2,25104:15 141:3145:18 191:25194:24 214:18225:19 240:11,14343:19
doing 24:3 35:2443:21,24 44:3,13,14132:2 180:3 191:14191:23 219:7,16231:11 234:24245:7 248:1 269:21270:21 312:25314:5
dollar 296:19dollars 297:3,3door 11:14 73:9
74:5,20,24 75:8,2576:11 132:15235:14 236:3
doorbell 72:10,17double 148:16doubt 90:2 170:12
170:23 171:3,13185:23 186:2,3236:22
doubting 87:18douglas 287:20doukas 6:13draft 152:15drill 337:10drilled 119:6drilling 189:2
336:16
drive 64:22drop 242:14 247:19
248:3 250:3,18279:19 281:1333:18,23
dropped 297:13dropping 249:10,21due 178:18 261:11
283:5,23dues 348:14duly 9:1dumped 49:25dunst 6:13duplicative 299:11duquesne 17:24
30:3,18,21,24 31:2303:7 310:12
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30:17,21,24 34:11100:8,12,13,18,21101:16 102:10,14102:17,24 103:1139:6,8 189:6 208:4208:16 209:10210:1,5,10
dusting 178:17201:2 205:24 206:4206:6 207:22,23208:25 209:4 212:6
dusts 30:8 34:8duties 37:17 38:23
42:20,21 182:17186:4,5 194:3302:21 305:12,16
duty 93:3dyne 5:12
e
e 3:1,11 4:1 5:1,1156:23 180:23,24191:6 193:17221:12 232:15,15235:15 252:7 264:8
285:13 289:14eagle 315:7,25earlier 41:21 83:8
188:11 203:5,8,21203:25 214:13226:9 290:14314:23 318:2326:22 330:22
early 12:1 117:1earth 198:17east 317:14,19eastern 317:19,20easy 195:9 220:3eat 131:20eckert 5:13edie 15:5 16:5 66:24
66:25 67:2educate 117:22
125:6educated 113:4educating 112:24
113:2,3education 17:22
27:12 30:3 55:3,17113:8,12 124:12143:17 303:3,4
educational 53:2255:12 192:23 194:9194:10 197:5 213:5215:12 242:2294:15
effect 321:9 326:24effectively 214:2
289:21efficient 184:21eight 148:15 183:16either 10:4 15:9
19:13 69:18 135:25143:19 147:21240:4 242:7 276:6292:5 306:15334:17
electric 5:20 6:7eliminate 288:22
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else's 144:19 275:3emd 53:21 194:7,8
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emphasis 268:13emphysema 139:9employ 52:12 57:10
60:3,16,21 229:3employed 18:16
43:6 57:6 59:1962:1 70:9 311:13
employee 15:416:19 17:7,10 52:1453:2 57:11,16,24,2558:6,22 59:4 64:25113:13 119:18136:24 144:25145:12
employees 14:2415:1 25:15 43:158:8,15,16,21,2559:5 64:5 100:22113:7 115:13 145:8160:5 163:6,15,19164:20 166:3 318:9
employer 27:25employers 29:19
35:9employment 18:11
18:12 19:22,2329:15 60:9 84:25231:12 303:19
enclosed 255:7ended 55:13enemy 303:1energy 6:11engineer 20:5 21:15
24:25 25:22 304:2,9engineering 22:25engineers 26:4
48:11 316:15ensure 105:22 106:9
106:14,23 224:22224:24 225:9,21
entail 20:6enter 12:25 319:22
324:19entered 315:23entering 13:4entire 45:21 55:25
56:23 57:3 81:2282:1 92:11 104:17109:7 112:23 195:1272:25 328:1
entirely 65:12entities 43:2 51:8
309:24entitled 169:20
232:10 297:5350:12
entry 154:7,7 301:9304:7 307:20,24308:20 309:22311:1,17 313:22316:23 317:10
epoxy 183:6,16,22epoxyn 285:12equally 164:18equipment 21:10
172:15,23 246:19equivalent 281:6erie 350:3,8erroneous 174:24esq 5:3,6,10,14,18
5:21 6:1,5,8,13,176:22 7:1,6
essentially 310:10establish 234:14established 235:6et 1:6,13,20 8:10,11
8:13 200:24 205:20205:21 295:19296:4
ethical 322:15,15339:21,22
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179:17 307:7
everybody 113:3,12122:7 342:13,18
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110:7 122:6,23124:16 127:2129:22 130:6,15168:10,14 223:6225:19 230:4,5,23247:14 261:14271:22 321:8
evolved 58:15exact 33:25 178:21
208:18 274:4exactly 12:3,3 45:5
77:22 78:9 95:12204:12 246:9286:20
examination 1:242:3 3:5,6,7 9:18299:5 340:20
example 56:14,1559:12 208:2 310:14312:14 318:15
exceeded 189:6excerpt 149:21excerpts 149:18excuse 30:2 60:2
91:13 99:16 100:8127:14 175:1 180:7199:8 202:24224:23 304:3310:17
executive 38:19,2139:1
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exhaustive 301:18exhibit 134:12 148:9
159:18 212:11223:20 250:22,23263:24 264:1 266:4270:13 291:14292:9,20 300:19
328:9,14,15,17330:14,21 332:9333:2,9,11,25334:10,25 337:20337:23,25 338:1341:18 344:7
exhibits 330:12332:6,7
exist 92:2,11existed 33:4 307:14existing 28:20,21,23
224:1,16 225:2,10225:22 338:25339:10
expected 336:13experience 22:21
43:20 47:12,2348:25 52:6 162:2267:15 280:17303:16,24 304:12304:14 305:4,7341:3
experiments 191:15248:1
expert 61:25 62:1,2110:8 121:17,18122:2,23 124:1146:23 193:16195:23 196:1208:21 220:22228:10,15 229:2,9231:13,16 241:5262:15 265:2271:22 282:23305:9 313:3,13341:12 342:6,9,13342:14,15,18,19,22343:10
expertise 229:15305:3,6
experts 171:5,9229:3 231:1,2 241:9241:12
explain 91:17301:12 308:22
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explained 196:14explaining 254:24exposed 123:8
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139:8 143:19227:21 230:10,14231:18 240:23241:1 281:3
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75:10 160:7 166:14167:2,7,12 193:7197:18 229:1264:10 266:6346:15
extinguisher 56:9307:3,5
extinguishers 26:1456:14,18 307:3
exxon 6:11eyewash 26:15
f
f 1:5 6:9 157:1221:12 235:16237:7
facilities 102:25183:20 223:9
facility 103:19 297:7298:3
fact 47:9 51:7 74:6108:12 167:21191:16 213:20215:10,16,18216:17 219:6 230:5233:17 272:17314:4 316:12
factors 122:19facts 28:16 50:13
58:10 62:5 81:1883:6 89:3 90:2192:23 97:4 111:24117:14 118:1 120:2121:13 124:16129:22 133:19140:17 141:5195:20 196:4215:21 217:3220:12 223:18225:5 230:23 237:1239:6 244:23 245:1247:14 256:10264:23 265:15271:21 296:6
factual 177:24 178:4208:6 209:17282:21 335:18
failed 98:4fair 52:7 53:20
67:20 85:19 103:10103:19 113:19114:6,11,13 126:11126:12 133:4 136:8136:13,15 145:4,7145:20,22 146:6,7152:2 153:1,19187:2 200:15 212:3221:1 236:10243:10 256:19286:18 291:12297:6,7,17 298:4
fairly 199:13 303:18falls 235:9fame 315:12familiar 136:3 175:3
233:24 257:18294:9
family 142:12322:14
far 35:16 101:14116:17,19 117:18189:13 190:15
230:8farm 54:4fatality 312:23father 198:1fault 172:9feasibility 222:8
226:4 251:9features 21:9february 18:21
38:11 44:23,25federal 2:4 213:20fee 9:10 44:12,14,16
44:20,21feel 13:2 76:17
317:21 321:23328:5
feldner 1:10,10 6:76:16,20 8:10 9:610:9 133:8 328:25
felt 154:13 186:2216:6
festival 315:24fiber 175:4 178:13
257:13fibers 111:10 119:12
119:13 120:18122:10,16 123:9124:3 129:19130:15,17,19 160:8166:15 167:3,8,13177:2,15,19,20,21177:22 178:8,8,17179:5 188:21200:20 201:1,19205:23 208:4,12210:10 228:2 231:3231:19 255:11257:23 258:19260:10 261:24,24263:9,18 264:10,16265:2 281:4 297:12297:18 323:24331:10,15 345:1,22346:2,14,16
fibrosis 139:9field 65:8 162:3fifth 6:22figure 59:18 138:3figured 296:25file 55:2filed 78:20film 315:24final 207:9finally 133:20find 10:24 72:6 96:5
96:7,9,11 117:11120:22 121:2 171:5188:19 261:5 275:5279:19 282:3298:12 337:20338:1,4 347:14
finder 316:12fine 26:10 123:24
155:24 176:18203:1 221:2 251:16276:3 290:12,20,22293:15
fined 213:20finger 174:3 200:23
201:22 288:11331:12 345:14
fingers 150:16finish 12:9,12,16
23:21,24 36:1848:15,16 51:16 54:857:23 59:21 77:8,1281:5,7 106:11114:21 118:13122:4 144:14 153:4165:8,9 202:21206:7 208:24250:11 262:7269:23 276:15326:20 345:11
finished 13:5 36:2154:10,11 144:11,12144:15 254:7,16270:6 322:6 324:6
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first 10:6 11:3 12:822:8,21 26:15,1732:1 38:16 39:2,1450:9 55:6,15,2056:21 58:13 63:667:14,16 79:4,9,1279:18 81:2,14 90:794:17 97:21 105:12108:6 114:12115:19 128:9,10,12128:14 129:2,4,13133:21 136:19138:21 149:6,9158:12 183:4,9,10192:10 196:17205:18,18 206:3210:14 226:7234:11 237:6252:11 253:13268:8 275:12279:13,14,23 283:9288:10 295:17297:22 298:2 301:9303:17 307:5,20,24311:20,20 317:5,8330:7,25 338:13341:17
fisher 1:5,5 3:16,195:8 6:15 8:9,24 10:314:24,25 15:4,12,1315:15,19,23,2416:13,18 17:8,11,1518:20,23 22:5 23:524:13 28:1 29:14,1832:24 38:7,9,15
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178:15 180:1,22181:16 182:11,25184:2,20 186:23187:2,10,19 188:20189:4 190:17193:10,24 196:25197:3 199:8 200:2202:7,17 211:3215:5 221:11222:21 223:9 224:2224:13,25 225:9,21227:20 228:22229:2,14 231:7232:11 235:25237:16,18 238:1240:12 242:2243:23 244:18246:23 248:4 252:5259:17 260:5,18,23261:2,18 266:1272:10 274:10275:22 277:2278:13 281:24282:18 283:10284:15 287:18293:25 294:18,24295:4 296:2 298:4299:8 304:25 305:2305:11,17,24 306:3306:12,15,20307:13,15 308:20309:13,15 311:14313:1 319:9,10,14319:17,25 320:4321:24,25 322:12322:13,14,18323:10,16,19 324:1324:8,15 325:2332:16,24 335:11338:24 339:10,20342:25 343:4346:20,21 347:3,23348:1,10
fisher's 39:18 64:1996:4 125:3 151:10
fitting 150:16five 45:10,19 53:6,7
54:20,21 61:8 168:8189:19 248:19288:12 289:14315:22
fka 6:3flaking 294:6 295:2fleece 150:17flew 315:20flexboard 235:17
295:21 296:15flip 172:10floor 5:10,14,18 6:2
6:18 7:6 122:15florida 317:21fmc 7:4focus 148:18foil 235:14 236:3folks 240:1following 221:24
235:6 279:21follows 9:2fontaine 221:12,17
251:1fool 325:22foot 139:8forbidden 284:23
286:10,16,18 287:3287:4 325:25
foresight 80:18forget 83:20 94:4
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forgive 254:22forgot 132:13form 13:23 14:7,13
15:16 16:2 17:1,1618:14 19:15 21:628:15 29:3 30:932:21 33:10 34:943:4,8,14 45:3 49:450:13 53:9 58:959:7 61:12 62:463:10 66:2 68:4
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forma 288:21,24formed 121:13
308:5former 16:18forms 295:20forster 19:24 20:4
20:18 21:21 22:1723:9,18,19 24:6,1331:20 303:25
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12:10,11,15,16 13:623:22,24 30:1247:24 51:17 59:2260:8 62:5 68:6 71:575:19 81:5 86:2488:2,8,19,21 89:589:12,15 91:1 94:2595:1,4 97:18,1998:3 99:14 101:9102:3,14 103:13106:11 110:15112:15,20 116:24118:1 120:3,23123:16,20 124:8125:2 128:8 130:11139:25 145:24,25146:2,8,20 147:15148:6 154:2,6 160:9165:7,12,15,22166:23 168:3170:18 172:7 175:6175:16 178:21
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question's 196:3259:23
questioned 88:18questioning 255:2
256:1 300:4 340:17questions 11:4
12:25 13:8,24 61:1889:18 126:10,20147:12 164:2,23165:15,19 176:23183:24 191:10195:9 199:7,10,14201:9 205:10 215:8218:10,16 221:22222:12 228:12234:7 239:4 240:6242:24 252:4253:12 273:9 274:6275:2 285:3 298:9298:11,13,16,19299:10,13,14318:10 319:2320:24 323:10328:23 329:15,19
332:11 333:8,21334:14,19,22335:16,23 337:19337:24 340:2,9,11340:12 347:8,9
quickly 242:13303:20 313:17
quincy 315:12quite 23:6 30:11
41:10 62:7 128:8143:23
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radio 302:25raise 126:24 318:22raised 16:24 204:15ramifications
279:17 280:3ran 140:25 186:7rand 7:4rang 72:10,16range 113:10rapid 6:24raspanti 5:17raymond 1:10 8:10
10:9 133:8reach 120:14,22
121:11 229:15reached 77:23,23,24read 95:1,4 102:7
104:13,16,24107:11,11 123:7137:21,24,25139:11 143:11144:4 147:25 148:4148:6 150:8,18157:5 158:2,12
160:10 170:3181:23 183:12184:10 191:9,24194:25 200:15201:8 214:7 221:21222:11 230:16,19231:7 234:9 240:13240:14 242:13,23248:23,24 251:7253:10 254:14255:15 264:22266:13,17 272:25273:8 277:9,11279:10,13,23 285:2287:14 293:21294:7 295:23,25296:9 297:15311:22 313:17315:12 331:6,19
reading 22:9 216:21240:11 285:1
reads 183:25 284:21284:22
ready 62:22 251:20real 193:6 201:3
211:25 268:13303:20
really 66:6 68:774:22 87:19 89:2199:17 138:16,18147:24 164:24165:2 191:22219:15 240:24254:9 265:15304:17 321:14327:3
reason 65:15 109:7127:13 131:25,25152:7 170:12,23185:4,10,23 234:10236:22 296:18305:21 321:15,24325:16 344:25
reasons 92:8
recall 22:20 25:1726:7 56:12 63:7,1263:16,20 66:1070:16 76:19 81:1,1481:22 83:1 84:1085:3,12 86:12 87:791:22 92:20,25 94:696:6,10,18,24 97:2098:20 100:20,25101:2,3,6,11 104:21108:4 115:16116:10 155:8161:16 167:5,9174:8,9,16 176:6179:20 180:3182:23 184:17185:22 187:23188:1 189:15194:17 197:8198:11,12,21200:11 201:11,13201:15 202:12,19214:10,12,16,20,23214:25 215:9216:10,14 220:25222:14,16,25 225:3227:13 230:7234:18,24 235:19235:20 241:14243:10,13,17252:22,25 253:24257:8,10 270:11271:9 274:12275:10,15,19 279:8280:9,21 285:19286:3 316:4 317:6317:23 318:5 327:1330:4 332:1 338:22340:3 341:24
receive 33:20 34:1334:21 127:16255:12
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receiving 184:17187:22 188:3194:17 198:22235:21 243:17270:12 274:12333:24 336:22
recess 62:13 131:10189:23 248:16298:23
recipient 285:23recite 329:9recognition 314:20
347:21recognize 136:24
138:8 145:1 156:12210:12,15 252:13288:24
recognized 313:2,8313:12 315:4
recollection 97:4,798:5 99:1,25 100:3102:16 117:15121:14 124:18185:15 193:4197:18,20 202:6218:5 219:6 220:14223:2,4,23 225:18234:23 258:23272:19 288:2330:13 331:21336:21,24
recommendation23:20 24:8
recommended249:21 289:3 304:4338:23
recommending290:3
recommends 288:17289:15
record 9:4,16 12:1713:2,25 62:11,18121:24 131:7,9,14134:9 149:17,20190:3 213:18 214:8232:20 244:23246:25 247:4248:14,21 251:7253:1 254:15255:15 266:4269:18 298:22299:3 311:22324:21 349:6
records 301:3refer 59:12 60:18,22
149:11 182:1242:19 258:6
reference 143:11145:20 158:7 314:2326:24
references 157:20335:16
referencing 145:18referral 61:1referred 73:19
181:11 184:14188:11 195:13196:14 204:17212:24 258:2314:23
referring 16:1 60:5103:14 138:4142:25 203:16213:22 222:23223:18 239:20245:13,18 251:12255:10 257:21,22263:23 311:21
refers 136:19 138:7193:8 225:25 247:1248:3 258:7 262:3344:4
refresh 185:14202:6 225:18234:23 330:12
regard 91:10 108:18160:24 168:4 204:4251:17
regarding 60:9 94:9216:12 231:17240:7 308:11328:23 331:25
regardless 183:25207:23 260:12,21261:4
regards 56:4 79:9109:21 124:12129:15 167:25175:20 180:4188:18 214:6222:10 225:11,22242:20 249:2 274:1274:18 280:15
regency 2:8regional 156:8,24
157:8regular 84:16 110:1
194:5,6regulations 175:8
279:17regulatory 107:1
108:13,16 109:8reilly 1:24 2:2 3:3
3:15,16,18,19,21,223:23,24 4:5,6,7,8,94:10,11,12,13,16,164:17,18 8:15 9:1,2013:19 14:1 62:20121:25 131:17133:22,24 134:20148:10,11 155:25156:1,17 158:4168:18,19 180:11
180:16 181:9,11,14190:7,11 193:15194:18 195:23199:20,22 201:6206:3 212:11,13,22212:24 221:4,5,12221:15 223:20232:5,6,22 234:12241:20,20,22 242:3243:19,22 251:23251:24 252:9,11255:14 266:4270:12,24 272:5,13278:6,7,16,18 284:8284:10 285:11287:7,10,19,24291:15,16 298:13299:9 300:19,21,22328:10,14,15,17330:14,21 331:17332:9 333:2,11,25334:10 335:5,22336:4,7 337:23,25338:1 339:2,3343:24,25 344:1,3349:5
reilly's 242:4relate 21:4,9 69:3
237:15 309:5,8311:9 315:9 317:14327:13
related 21:2 29:1629:20 30:4,7 69:578:4 91:19 105:13105:18 122:11129:18 162:9 177:1201:4 221:25 241:2281:25 282:7,17312:11
relates 89:5 195:4240:22 264:22301:9 313:22314:21 316:9
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released 111:11123:8 177:3,7178:18 208:15228:2 261:24264:16 323:23
releases 130:16relevance 320:9,12relevant 32:14relining 119:18remain 46:9 64:11remained 51:12remember 19:4
21:16 22:1 26:831:4 33:25 34:165:7 72:9 78:10,1678:19 81:2 90:7113:21 153:24159:14 160:24176:15,16,19196:15 198:24233:16,24 243:2,3,6245:7 267:20,23280:3,4,6,15 289:11335:25
remembered 238:7remove 154:13
183:19 289:22removing 290:13remunerated 60:13
remuneration 61:461:5
repeat 88:2 166:23213:11 245:25
repeating 130:5348:10
rephrase 39:15 68:973:4 75:11,15,1989:22 94:24 247:9260:1
rephrased 58:12replaced 289:4replacement 50:17
50:25 242:17279:20,22
replacing 182:25183:21
reply 219:16replying 336:10report 25:25 38:18
39:7,9,21,22 47:11154:18 288:8
reported 26:1,2,338:25 39:14,2047:15 56:25 114:14293:8,16
reporter 2:6 8:1712:5 95:4 102:7134:6 148:6 230:19266:17 277:11343:21
reporting 8:3,18represent 10:2,7,9
10:10 14:1 73:14169:5
represented 13:1014:6,16
representing 13:1814:12 17:5,13 77:3149:23
represents 17:14request 74:21 195:5
217:12,17 219:11requested 95:3
102:6 148:5 158:5
219:3 230:18266:16 277:10
requests 328:24require 55:7,16
195:25required 35:6,10
49:2,11 91:25129:25 154:12219:2 229:15
requirement 127:24128:9 129:1,11,14264:14
requirements150:17 152:12153:15 167:24168:4 170:1 171:22173:8,19 174:12,13174:25 175:1179:13 180:8 215:2326:25 327:5,22
reread 249:3research 107:12
109:6 118:18,24121:5 124:1 139:16139:24 143:16144:3 147:19168:14 210:8 227:6227:7,15 230:8311:24 312:9321:10 348:19
researched 119:3researchers 122:8resist 278:24resistant 235:12resold 128:1resources 38:20,22
38:25respect 9:8,11,13
283:5,23respectable 262:15respond 237:19
346:13responded 126:10
239:21 243:11252:16 265:21
340:2responding 216:12
276:4 334:19response 179:2
220:10 263:12274:12,18,19275:13,17 277:23328:18 337:1344:11 345:24346:14
responses 276:8responsibilities
50:23 51:7 56:2579:16,17 85:2091:10 93:17 114:16124:11 233:9
responsibility 39:19207:10,13,16
responsible 36:737:9 51:8 85:16207:5 282:10,11
rest 292:2rests 207:17result 95:15,18 97:9
97:16,23 139:8187:22 209:12
resulting 281:6resume 4:16 69:9
300:21 301:1,2,9303:16 307:18314:12 316:9340:24 341:1347:12,17
retained 13:17,2113:25
retire 40:1,11 41:1144:4
retired 40:13,1350:8 301:3
retirement 40:1741:13,14
returned 294:3295:1
reveal 302:15
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reviewed 63:21,2481:15,25 123:6209:23,24 230:9,14235:5
reviewing 81:2284:12 227:13
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234:4,22 236:7237:24 245:10246:7 252:18 253:2255:18 261:12263:5 264:2 265:6267:6,9,12,13 269:1269:5 284:17 285:1285:25 292:1,10293:4 296:1 297:9301:6 303:21304:11,20 325:2327:1,24 328:2,4330:2,18,23 333:14340:6 341:18342:15,21 343:11344:12,16 345:1
ring 236:9risk 20:9,9,10,10
121:3 304:6,6 324:2324:9
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10:11 64:2 133:7robinson 39:3rochester 54:13role 41:2 56:3 79:9
79:12 83:23 261:18rolls 41:1room 11:14 12:24
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317:13safe 25:12 105:24,25
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safety 19:24 20:5,720:13,14,24 21:1,321:15 22:13,14,1522:18,22,25,2524:25 25:22 26:4,1827:12,15 28:4,6,728:24 29:1 31:15,1634:19,25 35:2,736:5,7,9 37:17,2137:22,25 38:3,17,2338:24 39:5,11,19,2140:4,18 41:18,19,2542:4,19,21 45:20,2146:1,19,21 47:6,1047:14 48:6,10,19,2248:23 49:1,10,1850:1,3,10,19,1951:5 55:12,17 56:2356:25 57:1,3,1658:6,22,24 59:465:8 80:5,6,8,1891:12,14,16,20 93:393:17 94:8 100:10104:3,7,8,14,16,17104:23,23 105:12105:21 109:7112:25 113:7,11114:13 115:7,10,15115:16 116:13122:7 124:21 125:4125:7 152:23154:20,22 156:7,12156:17 160:19,22160:23 161:13,18162:2 167:24,25168:4 172:15,23179:25 194:4 199:8201:6 207:4 214:5
224:13 227:2229:13 234:5236:13 240:5252:10 255:8260:11,14 261:19263:6 272:14286:14 291:6 297:2304:2,4,9,15 305:1305:4,13 306:1,7,13306:15 307:10,21308:9,18,24 309:6310:4,8,10,20,21311:2,5,6,8,9,10,11311:11,17 312:7,8312:11,16,20 313:3313:9,16,18,21,24313:25 314:1,7,19314:19 315:1,2,2,3315:8,10 316:15,18316:22,24,25 317:8318:4,18,23 326:8331:18 332:1339:13 341:16342:9,25 343:2,4,8347:11,22,24 348:3348:12,16
sale 110:19sales 57:15 124:13
125:1,13,15 126:19136:1 152:25181:20 279:1 285:7286:11 288:13306:25 338:14
salesforce 125:1salesman 19:3,5salespeople 124:20
125:3,6 126:19salesperson 124:22san 45:11sandvik 181:10satisfaction 330:10saw 64:12 69:24
71:10,12,14,18,2394:15 146:7 153:25154:5,6,25 155:11
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says 89:7 132:25135:14,18 136:6139:5 142:19 145:5145:6 150:4,12151:16 153:11156:6 157:2,7169:12,24 170:24172:23 173:8,19181:3 182:4,6186:22 187:6,7192:10 193:14195:23 199:5202:13,16 203:6207:21 209:4 213:8222:19 233:17234:11,16 235:5237:7 242:1,21243:5 256:19257:19 258:21,22259:2 264:9,12,19273:11,12 285:11286:13 287:21288:8,11,20 289:13289:23 291:21,22292:1,9,11 293:4,16294:2 295:8,18
297:10 301:10307:21 308:20311:23 314:16315:7 331:17333:17 336:3,6338:14 346:2,10,14
scared 305:23school 54:2 191:1,5
191:13 192:5195:17 205:3,5213:10,13 215:6,12215:16 216:12238:22 239:3 244:5244:17,25 250:15250:17 252:7,20253:8,22 256:22258:17 260:6265:12,17,21 266:1271:16 272:12273:19 274:19276:5,8 277:3332:10 334:1,13,18
schools 260:6science 7:4 17:23
190:19 195:6 197:6245:13,19,24246:18 266:5,8268:24 303:6,10,12347:21
scientific 1:5,6 3:163:19 5:8 6:16 8:9,2510:3 14:25 15:4,1215:23,25,25 16:1316:19 18:6,20 24:1429:14,18 38:7,9,1645:1,2 50:3,4,1051:6,21 52:1,11,1252:17,20 53:3,5,855:7,9,16,21,2158:2,7,14,24 59:560:3 62:2,24 64:664:10 65:16 66:1867:6 69:4,16,1770:9 73:14,16,2474:10 76:3 77:19
78:5,18 79:11,13,1980:13 82:16,2183:25 84:8,21 85:685:23 88:5 89:2592:2 98:8,14 100:17101:15 102:12,23103:4 104:3,4,17107:17 108:6,9110:19 111:9,16112:18 113:6,11118:8 120:16,24124:20 127:3,8,14127:16,25 129:17129:25 137:2139:17 140:6 141:2141:12 142:16143:18 144:6,25145:8,19 146:9,12147:5,11,22,23148:12,25 151:4,22153:12 154:21156:18 161:1162:24 163:5,15,18164:19,20,21 166:3168:20 169:2 171:6171:24 175:15,21178:15 180:22181:16 182:25187:10 188:20189:4 190:18193:10,24 196:25197:4 199:9 200:3202:7,17 211:3212:20 215:5221:11 222:21223:10 224:2,14,25225:9,21 227:20228:22 229:2,14231:7 232:12235:25 237:16238:1 240:12 242:3244:18 246:23248:4 252:5 259:17260:5,18,23 261:2266:1 272:10
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scientific's 65:2466:12 67:11 100:19124:12 145:22170:13
scientist 18:9,13,17146:23
scientists 228:4scott 39:3,4,5,8,11screw 281:21screwing 282:12script 193:15 315:13se 260:19seamans 5:13search 116:13
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301:20,23 302:13see 20:8 28:12 71:25
94:12 124:24137:25 139:2,4142:20 143:2146:12 150:4153:21 159:3169:16,19 174:6181:2 186:21,25195:25 204:6 216:5216:18,22 224:14255:9 257:21261:23 273:5,12291:24,24 292:5,20298:7 307:22308:16 310:12,13311:18 321:8334:14 338:10,20343:19 347:7
seeing 95:18 103:24234:22 238:7 257:9285:19
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272:22 273:15279:6 286:5 289:2298:2
self 143:17 311:23312:4
sell 19:8 54:5 184:3186:23 226:12249:25 256:7258:18 280:24324:16 338:25339:23
selling 86:23 226:10236:19 246:22279:15 324:9338:19 339:6
send 31:11 163:21191:21 255:4257:16 273:6
sender 331:18sending 219:11
256:20 271:3,9272:19
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80:10 81:15,2382:23 83:4 163:22212:7 218:1 219:1244:20 276:11
sentence 59:21136:19 183:10210:12,13,16 212:6212:8 219:14 256:3264:21 331:6
separate 216:4295:14
september 134:10135:5,19
series 191:10 221:22serve 302:5served 9:7service 59:3services 8:3set 122:10 126:1,2
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191:12 195:5246:17 266:5,7268:15,24 293:17
shaking 336:19shape 234:15,20share 219:22shazia 6:13shebang 331:24sheet 242:19sheets 183:7,16
235:17 236:5sheriff 72:10,16,18
73:8 74:5,9,19,2475:8,25 76:10
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