ansbacher cayman report appendix volume 7

8/14/2019 Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 7

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Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

T H E H I G H C O U R T

I N T H E M A T T E R O F TH E C OM PA NIE S A CTS 1 963 to 19 90

AND IN THE MATTER OF PAR T I I OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17

A N D I N T H E M A T T E R O F A N S B A C H E R ( C A Y M A N ) L I M I T E D

(formerly G U I N N E S S M A H O N C A Y M A N T R U S T L I M I T E D ,

A N S B A C H E R L I M I T E D an d C A Y M A N I N T E R N A T I O N A L B A N K A N D T R U S T C O M P A N Y

L I M I T E D )

R E P O R T O F T H E IN S P E C T O R S

A P P O I N T E D TO E N Q U I R E IN T O T H E

A F F A I R S OF A N S B A C H E R ( C A Y M A N )

L I M I T E D

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

V O L U M E [ 7] : A P P E N D I X X V ( 5 5 ) TO X V ( 7 3 )



ISBN 0-7557-1355-9

© Govern ment of I reland 2002



Appendix XV (55) Mr Gerald Hickey

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrGerald Hickey.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 25 May 2000.

b) Statement and attachments of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 19 May 2000.

c) Undated Guinness and Mahon memo headed 'Gerry Hickey'.

d) Receipt of share certificate of 28 May 1993.

e) Ansbacher Cayman Limited statement of current a/c of 24 June 1996.

f) Telefax of 22 September 1994 - JA Furze to IIB.

g) Extract from meeting of Board of Directors of Guinness and Mahon of 28November 1974.

h) Extract of Guinness and Mahon credit committee minutes of 4 Novem ber1971.

i) Letter of 16 Novem ber 1971 - Guinness and Mahon to Gerald Hickey.



Appendix XV (55) (1) (a)



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. GERALD HICKEY

UNDER OATH

ON THURSDAY, 25TH MAY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors:

Interviewee:

Represented by:

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

MR. GERALD HICKEY

MR. BRIAN BOHAN



I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

MR. G. HICKEY MS. MACKEY

MR. ROWAN



1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,

2 25TH MAY 2000:

3

4 MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Hickey.

5 My name is Paul Rowan. My

6 fellow inspector is Noreen Mackey. This is an

7 interview today. It is not a Court and it is not a

8 Tribunal.

9 MR. HICKEY: Yes.

10 MR. ROWAN: If you wish to consult

11 with your legal advisor,

12 if your ask us to stop we will allow you to speak to

13 him.

14 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.

15 MR. ROWAN: Equally, Mr. Bohan, if you

16 wish to make a point to

17 your client, if you ask us to stop we will allow you

18 to do that.

19 MR. BOHAN: Yes.

20 MR. HICKEY: This is not a Tribunal.

21 I thought it was a

22 Tribunal?

2 3 MS. MACKEY: No.

2 4 MR. ROWAN: No.

25 MR. BOHAN: It is an inquiry.

2 6 MR. ROWAN: It is just an

27 investigation.

28 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.

2 9 MR. ROWAN: As you can see we are

4



1 maintaining a transcript

2 of this. It will be converted into written form

3 afterwards and you will be asked to sign it.

4 MR. HICKEY: Yes.

5 MR. ROWAN: What we tend to do — and

6 it may well be appropriate

7 in this case -- is that if you feel you would like

8 to stop because you are not feeling well, would you

9 please let us know and we will arrange to have a

10 break.

11 MR. HICKEY: Thank you.

12 MR. ROWAN: In any event we tend to

13 have a break after about

14 an hour.

15 MR. HICKEY: I see.

16 MR. ROWAN: We will take it at your

17 speed.

18 MR. HICKEY: Right so. Thank you

19 very much. That is fine.

20 MR. ROWAN: I would like to ask

21 Ms. Mackey to administer

22 the oath please.

23 MR. HICKEY: Right.

24

25

26

27

28

29

5



1 MR. GERALD HICKEY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:

3

4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Hickey, I will start

5 by asking you some

6 questions and Mr. Rowan will take up then at a later

7 stage?

8 A. Yes.

9 2 Q. We sent you, as Mr. Rowan said, our long letter

10 asking you various questions. And you have sent us

11 back your unsworn statement (Exhibit 1)?

12 A. That is right, yes.

13 3 Q. You have sent us with that some documents. And you

14 have given us certain explanations or references to

15 those documents?

16 A. Yes.

17 4 Q. Before I begin to ask you questions proper about

18 your own background and your own relationship with

19 Guinness & Mahon, I want to ask you about these

20 documents that you gave us?

21 A. Yes.

22 5 Q. Are these the actual documents you got from

23 Guinness & Mahon or is it some kind of summary of

24 them?

25 A. No. What happened was this: About a year and a

26 half ago was the first time that

27 Guinness & Mahon sent me some of the documents when

28 I was asked to appear before the Moriarty Tribunal.

29 6 Q. Yes?

6



1 A. That is only one or two of these things.

2 7 Q. Yes?

3 A. It is that one and that one. (INDICATING).

4 8 Q. All of these set out at C to K, these look as if

5 they are some sort of summarised version of

6 documents (Exhibit 1)?

7 A. Yes. But I would to say that I have never seen the

8 first one apart from this one.

9 9 Q. Yes?

10 A. The first one "A" I have never seen. And that one.

11 10 Q. Yes?

12 A. I have never seen any of these until a few weeks

13 ago.

14 11 Q. Where did this come from?

15 A. Guinness & Mahon sent them to me.

16 12 Q. In that form?

17 A. Yes, in that form.

18 13 Q. Because one of them here "I" simply says 9/4/84?

19 A. "I" in this lot here?

20 14 Q. "I" in that lot there, yes. It simply says:

21 "9/4/84, a letter from Gerard Hickey toCollege Trustees in which he confirmed

22 that College Trustees Ltd..."

23

24 Did they send you that letter, Mr. Hickey?

25 A. I have no recollection whatever.

26 15 Q. No, with these documents. Is this all they sent

27 you?

28 A. That is all they sent me, yes.

29 16 Q. Just a description in other words?

7



1 A. Yes, exactly.

2 17 Q. Right. It would be important for us to actually see

3 these documents themselves. So since they didn't

4 send them to you...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. But did they not send them to you? I thought they

6 sent you everything they possibly could.

7

8

18 Q. No. They have sent us a general category of but

they haven't specifically sent us these?

9 A. I am not even certain if they have a copy of that

10 because... Do you want me to explain just a little

11 about College Trustees?

12 19 Q. Not yet, no, we will come to that. I was really

13 concerned to know whether this was a summary that

14 you had prepared of documents that had been given?

15 A. No, this is what I was sent.

16 20 Q. This is what they sent you?

17 A. Yes .

18 21 Q. That is fine, thank you. Can I just ask you first

19 of all for a brief history of your own career. You

20 were a solicitor until your retirement?

21 A. Yes. I am 73 years of age now. I qualified in

22 1948. I am therefore over 50 years a solicitor.

23 22 Q. Yes .

24 A. Do you mean my general career?

25 23 Q. If I ask you a couple of pointed questions.

26 You were with the firm of Hickey Beauchamp first of

27 all it was Hickey & O'Reilly. We had a merger in

28 1974 with two other firms and became Hickey

29 Beauchamp Kirwan & O'Reilly?



1 24 Q. And did you continue in private practice all during

2 those 50 years?

3 A. No, not at all. My father retired in 1962.

4 25 Q. Yes.

5 A. We did, as Brian can confirm, a very big litigation

6 practice. My father did it for the insurance

7 companies for the defendants.

8 26 Q. Yes?

9 A. I had to take over my father's share of that.

10 27 Q. Yes?

11 A. I did that for about 12 years to 1974. And in 1974

12 we had the merger. At that date I became chairman

13 of the partnership.

14 28 Q. Chairman?

15 A. Of the partnership.

16 29 Q. Yes?

17 A. I retired from full-time practice. I still did some

18 work and indeed some of this work. But I was

19 retired at that stage from full-time practice.

20 I then became a director of a couple of the major

21 companies. I was involved in business

22 and...(INTERJECTION).

23 30 Q. So you diversified into business really at that

24 stage?

25 A. Yes.

26 31 Q. Could we say from 1974 on that your interests were

27 more in business than in practice?

28 A. Yes. I think that is probably right. 50/50 anyway.

29 32 Q. You continued some private practice?

9



1 A. Yes, I did.

2 33 Q. You retired then altogether when?

3 A. I retired completely in 1989 I think it was. I mean

4 I hadn't been in any way active for perhaps four or

5 five years.

6 34 Q. So you retired both from business and from some form

7 of practice?

8 A. No, I retired from the practice in 1989. And then

9 of course I was fired from the two major businesses

10 when I was 65. Under the Articles you have to go.

11 35 Q. Could you tell me what those two business were?

12 A. They were CRH, which of course has given rise to

13 some of this and New Ireland Assurance was the other

14 one.

15 36 Q. And you were a director of both of those companies?

16 A. Yes. And Des Traynor was Chairman of both of them.

17 37 Q. That is right. You retired from both of those at

18 the age of 65?

19 A. That is right.

20 38 Q. And that was when?

21 A. 1992.

22 39 Q. 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 40 Q. I think that is fine for the career.

25 If we could look at your statement, Mr. Hickey

26 (Exhibit 1)?

27 A. Yes, certainly.

28 41 Q. You talk in your statement about Guinness & Mahon.

29 What I would like to know first of it all is, when

10



1 did you first develop a business relationship with

2 Guinness & Mahon?

3 A. Des Traynor and I both became directors of

4 New Ireland Assurance in 1971 I think it was.

5 42 Q. Yes?

6 A. And of course obviously got to know each other.

7 43 Q. Yes. You had never met him before?

8 A. I had never met him before then, no.

9 44 Q. Yes?

10 A. That was the time when you could set-off all bank

11 interest against your income for tax irrespective of

12 anything.

13 45 Q. Yes?

14 A. And of course an awful lot of businesses in the

15 professional end of the city were in fact doing

16 that.

17 46 Q. Yes?

18 A. They were paying interest to the bank and

19 speculating with what they borrowed from the bank

20 instead of paying tax. Maybe it was all wrong but

21 that is what was being done.

22 47 Q. Yes?

23 A. Of course there was a lot of property speculation.

24 48 Q. Yes?

25 A. I acted as solicitor for New Ireland Assurance.

26 49 Q. You were a solicitor for New Ireland?

27 A. Yes. But that really has nothing to do with this at

28 all.

29 50 Q. Right?

11



1 A. But that gave Traynor information on my performance

2 and apparently he thought that I could be relied on

3 to work efficiently. So I began to do business for

4 Guinness & Mahon.

5 51 Q. As a solicitor?

6 A. As a solicitor, yes. I was a solicitor.

7

8

52 Q. What I am really interested in at this point is when

you began to become a client of Guinness & Mahon?

9 A. I wish I knew exactly when, but I don't.

10 53 Q. Yes?

11 A. Because there was so much speculation going on.

12 And I did some myself.

13 54 Q. Yes?

14 A. But when exactly I started, I don't know. You see,

15 this document they sent me here, they don't know

16 what that date is.

17 55 Q. Yes?

18 A. They said Cathal McCarthy, the law agent of

19 Irish Permanent. I am sure you have come across

20 him?

21 56 Q. Yes?

22 A. He said he thought it was 1971 but he didn't know.

23 57 Q. You are referring to which particular document?

24 A. To Al (Exhibit 1). As you can see there he said he

25 didn't know what they were. And then I wrote 1971.

26 That "1971" is my writing if it is on your copy. I

27 think it was probably around about then

28 because...(INTERJECTION).

29 58 Q. Would that mean, Mr. Hickey, that you were in a



1 client relationship with Guinness & Mahon before you

2 met Des Traynor in 1974?

3 A. Yes up to a point.

4 59 Q. So you did know Guinness & Mahon before that?

5 A. William Forwood and Traynor were sent forward from

6 England to become joint managing directors with

7 Guinness & Mahon. I think it was in 1969.

8 60 Q. Yes?

9 A. I am sorry, I was incorrect, I did know Traynor a

10 short time before we both went on the board of

11 New Ireland.

12 61 Q. So how did you first come to know him then?

13 A. Because of the fact that New Ireland were looking

14 for directors. Somebody had died. I forget who had

15 died. One of the O'Reillys had died and there was

16 this merger at the time going on between

17 Irish Cement and Roadstone.

18 62 Q. Yes?

19 A. Which later became CRH.

20 63 Q. Yes?

21 A. And I had some involvement in that. I am terribly

22 sorry, I did meet Traynor a bit before 1971.

23 64 Q. You met Traynor before 1971?

24 A. Yes but only casually.

25 65 Q. Yes. Would you have begun around that time to

26 borrow from Guinness & Mahon?

27 A. Yes .

28 66 Q. To finance your...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. Yes, I was a client of Guinness & Mahon.



1 67 Q. You were a client?

2 A. I was a client for several deals. But I would like

3 to emphasise -- I don't know if this is the right

4 moment to bring in what I think these are?

5 68 Q. We can go through them when we come to those.

6 We will look at those.

7 A. Yes .

8 69 Q. This is just general background at this stage,

9 Mr. Hickey?

10 A. I am sorry, I did know him before.

11 70 Q. You knew him before?

12 A. Yes .

13 71 Q. You knew him from around the late 1960's?

14 A. About 1969, yes.

15 72 Q. In your statement here (Exhibit 1) -- and this may

16 lead you on to looking at the documents -- you say

17 at

18 paragraph two that you have no files or records save

19 in respect of one matter which happened 22 years

20 ago?

21 A. Yes .

22 73 Q. You say:

"I learned much later, about two years23 ago, that I was liable to capital gains

tax on the distribution of funds on the24 liquidation of the company."

25 Would you just tell me about that. What was the

26 company that was liquidated?

27 A. The company that was liquidated was a company called

28 Clonmel Estates Ltd which bought property at the

29 bottom of Abbey Street opposite to where the VHI is



1 now which was the old Brookes Thomas's. It was for

2 warehouse sites there.

3 74 Q. Had you an interest in this company?

4 A. I had a one-third interest in that. That is what

5 this was about.

6 75 Q. Yes. So you were a shareholder?

7 A. I was a one-third shareholder, yes.

8 76 Q. Were you also a director?

9 A. I was also a director, yes.

10 77 Q. So this company was liquidated?

11 A. This company was liquidated long since. You see

12 what happened was, the original intention was to do

13 a major development.

14 78 Q. Yes?

15 A. The times were bad; interest rates were too high.

16 We couldn't get the finance to develop it so we just

17 held on to it in hope. Anyway, then we got word in

18 about 1978 that Irish Life wanted to build their

19 enormous new offices down there and that they were

20 interested in the site.

21 79 Q. Yes?

22 A. So we had some discussion with them and they made us

23 an offer which yielded us a profit of about

24 £210,000.

25 80 Q. Right.

26 A. We were happy to take that and get out. What

27 happened then was, the company was liquidated.

28 There was nothing in it but cash. We decided that

29 there wasn't any point in going to the expense of



1 appointing an accountant to liquidate it, which

2 would be the normal thing to do. I was appointed

3 liquidator and I simply distributed the cash.

4 81 Q. Who were the other shareholders?

5 A. They were foreigners.

6 82 Q. All of them were foreigners?

7 A. Yes.

8 83 Q. Do you have their names?

9 A. I don't know where I stand. First of all they were

10 clients.

11 84 Q. Of yours?

12 A. Yes, they weren't resident here for tax purposes or

13 any other purpose.

14 85 Q. This is really for information. Perhaps you can

15 give us their names?

16 A. I think I am not supposed to because I was acting as

17 their solicitor. I am not supposed to disclose

18 their names.

19 86 Q. Were they also directors?

20 A. No, they were not. There names don't appear

21 anywhere.

22 87 Q. I see?

23 A. Because they didn't want their names to appear

2 4 anywhere.

25 88 Q. I see?

26 A. The only person whose name was allowed to appear was

27 mine. I was acting as their agent as well as

28 solicitor.

29 89 Q. So you were a one-third shareholder in a company in

16



1 which there were how many other shareholders.

2 Was it just two?

3 A. They weren't actual shareholders, they were sleeping

4 partners if you like.

5 90 Q. Yes?

6 A. They didn't officially appear.

7

8

91 Q.

A.

But they were the beneficial owners?

They were the beneficial owners. They were

9 beneficially entitled to two thirds.

10 92 Q. On the documents who appeared as the nominee holding

11 those shares?

12 A. I think there were some nominees in our office.

13 I forget where. But they weren't

14 people...(INTERJECTION).

15 93 Q. The shareholders appearing on the title are nominees

16 out of your office?

17 A. I think so. But these people themselves certainly

18 didn't appear.

19 94 Q. I see. Maybe we will come back to that.

20 The company was liquidated and you distributed the

21 profits ?

22 A. Yes .

23 95 Q. In relation to your own share, you then go on to

24

25

26

tell us here at paragraph three that your share was:"Placed on deposit withGuinness & Mahon and I alwaysunderstood that it was so."

I would like to ask you about that placing on

27 deposit?

28 A. Yes .

29 96 Q. First of all, how did it arise that you came to



1 place it on deposit with Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. You see, you have this document I presume?

3 97 Q. Which one is that. Is this one of the documents

4 that you have provided to us?

5 A. It is not with the A, B, C I have given. I think we

6 made a mistake and left it out of this list.

7 98 Q. Are you giving us a copy of this now?

8 A. If you wish. I am sure you have it somewhere.

9 99 Q. Actually, yes, we do have that document.

10 A. There is no date on it, but it was sometime in 1978

11 (Exhibit 2).

12 100 Q. I am sure I have it. It is page 49.

13 Yes, Mr. Hickey, we do have it.

14 A. What happened was, there was nothing in the company

15 but cash.

16 101 Q. Yes?

17 A. Its debts and all the rest of it had been paid and

18 all expenses. So I simply wrote cheques for a third

19 for myself and paid the other people.

20 102 Q. Yes?

21 A. No, I am sorry, I paid it into Guinness & Mahon.

22 103 Q. Yes. That is what I want to ask you about. When

23 you say you paid it into Guinness & Mahon, did you

24 open an account in your name at that stage?

25 A. No, I didn't.

26 104 Q. This is what I want to find out, what exactly

27 happened. Did you give this cheque to Mr. Traynor?

28 A. Yes, as I did many others.

29 105 Q. Right. Did you discuss first of all with

18



1 Mr. Traynor what was going to happen to this

2 one-third share?

3 A. I did, yes. I told him I wanted it on short-term

4 deposit.

5 106 Q. You wanted the money on short-term deposit?

6 A. Yes because as I said there, I wanted it 18 to

7 24 months later for another...(INTERJECTION).

8 107 Q. What did he say to you when you asked him to do

9 that?

10 A. I don't know whether I dealt with him. I dealt with

11 a fella called Ru Leonard, who is dead.

12 108 Q. For the moment I just want your own recollection,

13 leaving the document aside, of what actually

14 happened. You talked to Mr. Traynor or to somebody

15 about what you would do with this sum?

16 A. I am not even certain if I talked to himself. It

17 was probably Ru Leonard.

18 109 Q. You spoke to Ru Leonard?

19 A. Yes .

20 110 Q. And you said you had a sum of money you wanted to

21 place on short-term deposit?

22 A. Yes. They knew about this; they partly financed it.

23 111 Q. They had financed what?

24 A. They partly financed the purchase of the lands .

25 112 Q. I see, yes. So they were aware then that the

26 company had been liquidated?

27 A. Yes, they knew all about that.

28 113 Q. Yes. Then you said to them that you would like to

29 place your share of the profit on deposit?

19



1 A. Yes, on deposit full stop. I didn't know what they

2 were...(INTERJECTION).

3 114 Q. What did they suggest to you then as a deposit?

4 A. You see, I haven't seen this.

5 115 Q. Just leaving that aside. It is your memory I am

6 interested in?

7

8

A. They didn't suggest anything to me. I just assumed

it was on deposit.

9 116 Q. They said to you 'Yes, we will place it on

10 deposit.'?

11 A. Yes .

12 117 Q. Did they say it was going to be on deposit in

13 Ireland?

14 A. No. I assumed myself that it probably would be

15 because I wanted it quickly.

16 118 Q. You assumed it would be on deposit in Ireland?

17 A. Yes. But I mean, I didn't say that. And it looks

18 as if I was wrong. I have never seen this until

19 recently (Exhibit 2).

20 119 Q. Yes. Is this cheque that is referred to in this

21 £70,214.29 your share?

22 A. Yes. You see, I had paid the whole lot into

23 Guinness & Mahon, all the money. There is another

24 document which I think has an indication of that.

25 It is document B (Exhibit 3).

26 120 Q. Yes .

27 A. You see it refers there to £211,000 opposite my

28 name. The only thing I can assume -- again it is an

29 assumption. I am not swearing it; I just can't --



1 is that that was my share plus the other two

2 shares. You will see these other accounts at the

3 bottom, U3 and U4, I really don't know what they

4 are.

5 121 Q. Where are you talking about U3 and U4?

6 A. At the bottom of this. You see taking off certain

7 expenses -- and Guinness & Mahon may have had some

8 share themselves, I am not quite certain now -- the

9 total was £210,000.

10 122 Q. Yes. That was the total?

11 A. I am sorry, £220,000, three £70,000's. That I think

12 is the £211,000 that I paid into them there.

13 123 Q. Let me just get this clear: You put the total

14 amount on deposit with Guinness & Mahon?

15 A. I paid the total amount to Guinness & Mahon.

16 124 Q. To Guinness & Mahon?

17 A. Yes.

18 125 Q. Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?

19 A. Yes.

20 126 Q. To whom did you pay that?

21 A. I don't know which individual. I dealt with a lot

22 of individuals.

23 127 Q. Would you have given that cheque to Mr. Traynor

24 himself?

25 A. I didn't always deal with him.

26 128 Q. I know that, but on this occasion?

27 A. I don't remember, I think probably Ru Leonard

28 actually because he arranged that.

29 129 Q. When you paid that whole sum to Guinness & Mahon, it

21



1 was to hold it on whose behalf?

2 A. It was to do whatever the other people wanted them

3 to do and to put my share on deposit.

4 130 Q. So the other people were also clients of Guinness &

5 Mahon?

6 A. Yes.

7 131 Q. So when you gave that money to Guinness & Mahon, it

8 was put into an account in whose name. I presume

9 you got documents back from them showing that this

10 was on deposit?

11 A. No, I didn't. Guinness & Mahon never gave me

12 documents.

13 132 Q. So you didn't know what had happened?

14 A. I didn't really; I didn't know what happened to the

15 other shares.

16 133 Q. The entire sum, that wasn't put into a collective

17 account?

18 A. No, I don't think so, I think it was separated.

19 I think my money was put on deposit.

20 134 Q. Let me get this clear: You said a few minutes ago

21 that you distributed the funds?

22 A. I distributed them in the sense that I split them

2 3 up.

24 135 Q. But now you say you gave the whole amount to

25 Guinness & Mahon?

26 A. Yes. I think maybe you are catching me slightly

27 wrong. What I did was, I told Guinness & Mahon

28 what the divide was. The money always went into

29 Guinness & Mahon. All these monies always, the

22



1 whole lot, went into Guinness & Mahon.

2 136 Q. Right?

3 A. And I told them what the divide was and then they

4 put my share on deposit. The other shares weren't

5 my affair.

6 137 Q. So you gave that sum to Guinness & Mahon and you

7 said to them 'This is to be divided up into three

8 thirds'?

9 A. Yes.

10 138 Q. And in regard to your own share?

11 A. I didn't say anything to them, they knew about all

12 of that.

13 139 Q. But they must have had to take instructions, Mr.

14 Hickey, from somebody. You don't hand money to a

15 bank and let them do what they like. You must give

16 them some instruction?

17 A. I am afraid I cannot entirely agree with you there.

18 Mr. Traynor did things...(INTERJECTION).

19 140 Q. Was Mr. Traynor involved in this?

20 A. Of course he was, he knew all about it. He didn't

21 necessarily handle the details but he knew all about

22 it.

23 141 Q. How did he know all about it?

24 A. He knew about everything that went on.

25 142 Q. But how did he know about this. Was he one of the

26 partners in this, one of the shareholders?

27 A. No, I don't think so, although he was in some others

28 as far as I know.

29 143 Q. Right. Were Guinness & Mahon themselves

23



1 shareholders in this?

2 A. They put up some of the money. AIB put up some of

3 the money as far as I remember.

4 144 Q. Yes?

5 A. And I think Guinness & Mahon may have taken some

6 commission. They weren't actually shareholders but

7

8

they may have taken some commission, which may

account for that slight discrepancy.

9 145 Q. I see.

10 A. Then I should say to you what happened was, when the

11 distribution was made I didn't realise that this was

12 a distribution in technical terms and that I was

13 liable for tax as a distribution on the liquidation

14 of the company. That is what was pointed out to me

15 22 years later. That is when I asked Brian to

16 report to the Revenue that tax was paid on my share.

17 146 Q. I am sorry to keep harping back on this but I think

18 it is important that we get it clearly in our minds

19 so as to explain what subsequently happened and what

20 exactly happened here. If I can just summarise what

21 you have told me already?

22 A. Yes of course.

23 147 Q. If I am wrong you will tell me?

24 A. Yes .

25 148 Q. On the liquidation of this company, Clonmel Estates,

26 you and unnamed shareholders were entitled to the

27 funds in the company in the form of cash?


29 149 Q. That amounted to £220,000?



1 A. That was the profit.

2 150 Q. Yes. Was that the entire of the sum?

3 A. I think so, yes.

4 151 Q. That amounted to that. You were entitled to

5 one-third of that?


7 152 Q. You didn't hire an accountant to do the

8 distribution?

9 A. No. This was the mistake we made at the time.

10 153 Q. You were the person who undertook to divide up the

11 funds?

12 A. There was nothing except cash. All I had to do was

13 send the cash to Guinness & Mahon.

14 154 Q. Yes. So you sent the entire sum to


16 A. Yes.

17 155 Q. With no instructions other than what they were to do

18 with your share?

19 A. Yes, that is right.

20 156 Q. The only instructions you gave Guinness & Mahon was

21 in relation to your own share?

22 A. Yes.

23 157 Q. Do you have documents in relation to all of that?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 158 Q. None at all?

26 A. No.

27 159 Q. What would have happened to all of those documents?

28 A. What would have happened to them?

29 160 Q. Yes. I mean if you had documents at the time?

25



1 A. They are long since destroyed. It is 22 years ago.

2 161 Q. You didn't keep documents?

3 A. There would have been a file with the firm of

4 solicitors which is long since gone.

5 162 Q. In Hickey Beauchamp in Hickey Beauchamp there would

6 have been a file, yes?

7 163 Q. And you don't think if we enquired from

8 Hickey Beauchamp now that there would be any copies

9 of that?

10 A. I have enquired and there isn't.

11 164 Q. To get back to what happened, you gave this entire

12 sum in a cheque or a draft?

13 A. Yes.

14 165 Q. To somebody in Guinness & Mahon?

15 A. Yes. To Guinness & Mahon and I probably said to Ru

16 'This is what you have been expecting.' They knew

17 it was coming.

18 166 Q. With that you gave an instruction as to what was

19 happening to your share, which was £70,215?


21 167 Q. With regard to the two-third balance, you gave them

22 no instruction?

23 A. No, it wasn't for me. I had no authority.

24 168 Q. I understand that. How did they know what to do

25 with that?

26 A. Because they knew.

27 169 Q. But from whom would they get instructions. They

28 couldn't just act on their own behalf?

29 A. I am not very certain but I they had their own ways

26



1 of doing things.

2 170 Q. You were acting on behalf of the other two

3 shareholders there.

4 A. But I didn't give them any instructions. They just

5 simply put it all on deposit. That is what they

6 did.

7

8

171 Q. I am trying to clarify what your role was here

vis-a-vis the other shareholders because the other

9 shareholders were trusting you to look after this

10 money?

11 A. Yes but it was to send it to Guinness & Mahon. That

12 was all I was to do.

13 172 Q. Yes. With no indication as to who it was for?

14 A. No.

15 173 Q. Were Guinness & Mahon aware of who the beneficial

16 owners of this money were?

17 A. I don't think they were actually. They may have

18 been but I don't think they were.

19 174 Q. So what were they to do with the money then?

20 A. Just put it on deposit.

21 175 Q. For who; in whose name?

22 A. All in my name initially anyway.

23 176 Q. All in your name?

24 A. Yes because they didn't know who the other people

25 were.

26 177 Q. That is what I am getting at. So this entire sum

27 was put on deposit in your name?

28 A. I don't know, honestly, I don't know. I think it

29 probably was but I just don't know.

27



1 178 Q. Right.

2 A. I think it is that £216,000's there. That is

3 what I think it is.

4 179 Q. That was to be put on deposit then for a short-term?

5 A. Mine for a short-term.

6 180 Q. What about the rest?

7 A. For the other there was no

8 particular...(INTERJECTION).

9 181 Q. There was no term on it?

10 A. No.

11 182 Q. But it was to sit there. And to whom was

12 information to be given about it. Was it to you?

13 A. To me because the other people as I said to you were

14 foreigners. They were not resident here.

15 183 Q. Yes?

16 A. They were not resident here either for tax or for

17 any other purpose.

18 184 Q. I understand. The information in relation to their

19 share of this deposit was to be given to you?

20 A. Yes.

21 185 Q. So you would get statements from the bank?

22 A. If any were required at all. These people didn't

23 take any notice of the thing for years.

24 186 Q. Yes. But you were acting as you said as their

25 solicitor?

26 A. Yes.

27 187 Q. You were the person that dealt with it, if there was

28 anything to deal with?


28



1 188 Q. In other words, if these people wanted to know what

2 the state of their deposit was they would contact

3 you?

4 A. They would, yes.

5 189 Q. And you would contact Guinness & Mahon?


7 190 Q. And Guinness & Mahon would tell you and you would

8 relay information back to them?

9 A. Yes.

10 191 Q. So you were the person?

11 A. But they didn't come near me for years.

12 192 Q. Yes. When they eventually came near you then, was

13 it to withdraw all that money or to just find out?

14 A. What happened was, as far as I know, after

15 Des Traynor died in 1994 an awful lot of people

16 withdrew money from the Cayman accounts.

17 193 Q. Yes?

18 A. And I think this money was simply repatriated to

19 Europe. It certainly never came back here.

20 194 Q. This money was in a Cayman account?

21 A. I think it was, yes.

22 195 Q. And you knew it was there during that period.

23 This is the other people we are talking about?

24 A. I suppose I did. I didn't take much notice of it.

25 196 Q. The statements that you were getting, was it

26 Mr. Traynor himself who would give you occasional

27 statements?

28 A. No, he never dealt with details like that.

29 197 Q. Who would give you the statements?

29



1 A. Some of the other officials. There was a whole load

2 of them. There were a half a dozen officials there.

3 198 Q. Normally who would you contact?

4 A. There was Leonard. There was Lannigan O'Keeffe.

5 199 Q. Yes?

6 A. I cannot think of their names.

7 200 Q. They were the ones you would contact?

8 A. Yes. Traynor himself you only contacted if there

9 was some major crisis.

10 201 Q. This money -- the other two-thirds of this money --

11 was in a Cayman Island account, an account in the

12 name of Ansbacher in Cayman?

13 A. As far as I knew. But don't forget, this started in

14 1978. There was no such thing as Ansbacher then.

15 202 Q. No, at that stage it was called Guinness Mahon

16 Cayman Trust Ltd.

17 A. That is where I believe he put it.

18 203 Q. Yes. What you were aware of at that stage is that

19 it was in an account with a subsidiary of

20 Guinness & Mahon called Guinness & Mahon Cayman

21 Trust Ltd ?

22 A. That is right, as far as I know.

23 204 Q. In the Cayman Islands?

24 A. That's right. And it was earning interest there.

25 205 Q. And it was earning interest there. In relation to

26 your own share of it, did you understand that it was

27 also in Guinness Mahon Cayman?

28 A. I was not certain of that. The reason I say that is

29 because I told them that it was short-term.

30



1 206 Q. Yes?

2 A. That I wanted the money for another speculation,

3 which I did.

4 207 Q. Yes?

5 A. I withdrew it. The other was the Dolphin, which I

6 will explain to you later. We started the Dolphin

7 in 1980 and I withdrew that money about 1980.

8 208 Q. Yes?

9 A. I didn't withdraw it in the form of a backing loan.

10 209 Q. Yes?

11 A. I simply withdrew it.

12 210 Q. You withdrew it?

13 A. I just withdrew the cash.

14 211 Q. In relation to that cash, it now appears it was on a

15 short-term deposit with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

16 Ltd?

17 A. Yes.

18 212 Q. It was earning no doubt interest during that period?

19 A. It was, yes.

20 213 Q. Can I ask you, did you declare that interest?

21 A. Yes. As I say in the statement here, every year I

22 insisted that Guinness & Mahon give me the usual

23 statement that we all have to get from our bank.

24 214 Q. Yes?

25 A. For interest paid for the year to 5th April, and

26 every year Guinness & Mahon issued those interest

27 statements to me.

28 215 Q. Did those statements that Guinness & Mahon gave to

29 you cover a deposit in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

31



1 Ltd, which was not their...(INTERJECTION)?

2 A. I presume they paid them.

3 216 Q. I think it wasn't their habit because that would

4 have been a separate statement that would have come

5 from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd?

6 A. I do not think it worked that way. They simply gave

7 me a statement. You see, there were other deposits

8 and I didn't know which was which. It was all other

9 transactions.

10 217 Q. Right. The other deposits for which they would give

11 you statements, were they deposits here in Ireland?

12 A. Yes.

13 218 Q. As far as you knew what you were declaring to the

14 Revenue Commissioners was interest earned on

15 deposits here in Ireland?

16 A. No, I was simply declaring what I was given from

17 Guinness & Mahon.

18 219 Q. Yes. But you were not specifically aware that that

19 might have included overseas deposits?

20 A. I don't know quite honestly. I am not certain

21 whether I was aware at that stage or not.

22 I think I probably was actually but I am not

23 certain.

24 220 Q. You are not certain?

25 A. No.

26 221 Q. In relation to that whole episode of

27 Clonmel Estates, was Stokes Kennedy Crowley involved

28 in advising on that at that time?

29 A. Honestly I am not certain; I think they probably did

32



1 accounts for us. Honestly I don't remember at this

2 stage.

3 222 Q. Yes .

4 A. They certainly were involved in some of the other

5 matters. Of course they did my accounts all the

6 time. They got certificates of interest. If they

7

8

had thought that there was anything not right about

this, I presume they would have raised it with me.

9 But they didn't.

10 223 Q. Yes. What we can agree on now is that the entire

11 proceeds of this Clonmel Estates or the entire money

12 that was available on liquidation was in an account

13 in what is now Ansbacher Cayman, what was then

14 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?

15 A. I think that is probably correct, yes.

16 224 Q. Yours was in maybe a separate account in the same

17 name on a short-term deposit?

18 A. Yes .

19 225 Q. It appears from the document?

20 A. I am not certain but I think it was.

21 226 Q. And interest accrued on those accounts?

22 A. Interest would have accrued.

23 227 Q. As far as you knew, your evidence now is that that

24 interest was included in the statements of interest

25 given to you by Guinness & Mahon?

26 A. Yes because I wasn't certain where my account was.

27 228Q.

You weren't sure?

28 A. And I had told them it was short-term.

29 229 Q. Yes, I understand that. Did you have a trust



1 established in the Cayman Islands?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 230 Q. You didn't?

4 A. No.

5 231 Q. Were you ever advised by Des Traynor or anybody from

6 Stokes Kennedy Crowley to set up a discretionary

7

8 A.

trust overseas?

No, I never did. But there were various discussions

9 about various things. And there is a reference here

10 to the Gerald Hickey trust (Exhibit 4).

11 232 Q. I will come to that in a moment?

12 A. Quite frankly what that is about I don't know.

13 I never knew about that.

14 233 Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Mr. Traynor and

15 Mr. Reed of Stokes Kennedy Crowley in which there

16 was talk of setting up a discretionary fund?

17 A. Yes, I did, and I was involved in it and all these

18 things. It was almost his alter ego.

19 234 Q. Did they suggest to you at one stage that you set up

20 a discretionary fund?

21 A. I think they did. But you see, I had nothing in

22 particular to put into it.

23 235 Q. Yes?

24 A. I was simply dealing here and taking in effect

25 short-term profits and short-term losses also.

26 236 Q. Yes?

27 A. Then I wasn't really dealing offshore at all in that

28 sense. And I borrowed money from Guinness & Mahon

29 here and used that for speculation here.

34



1 237 Q. Can you recollect the conversation that you had with

2 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Reid in which it was suggested

3 that you might set up a discretionary fund?

4 A. It wasn't just me, it was a general suggestion about

5 trust for a number of people. There were various

6 different people involved at that stage.

7 238 Q. Were all those people present at this particular

8 meeting?

9 A. I don't know. They wouldn't all have been present.

10 I honestly do not know.

11 239 Q. The situation is that you were at a meeting with

12 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Reid at which a couple of other

13 people at least would have been present?

14 A. Yes but I was at many meetings with them about other

15 things.

16 240 Q. No, this is a meeting about a discussion about

17 discretionary trusts?

18 A. It may have occurred in the course of one of the

19 other meetings.

20 241 Q. I see. You cannot remember?

21 A. I can't honestly remember.

22 242 Q. Yes. But is your evidence that you never in fact

23 took up the suggestion of establishing a trust.

24 A. No, I never set up a trust in Cayman.

25 243 Q. Or in the Channel Islands?

26 A. No, I had no trust.

27 244 Q. So the references then in the documents that we have

28 here to the Gerald Hickey trust, you say you don't

29 know what that is?

35



1 A. I just do not know what that is. They are very much

2 later.

3 245 Q. Yes?

4 A. Yes, it was earlier 1974 Gerald Hickey Trust.

5 In 1974 it certainly wasn't Cayman I think.

6 24 6 Q. Have you the document there that is headed

7 "Gerald Hickey Trust share certificates." Are we

8 looking at the same one. I am referring to page 41

9 of our brief (Exhibit 5)?

10 A. No, share certificate, I haven't got that one.

11 247 Q. We will give one to you, Mr. Hickey (same handed)

12 Mr. Hickey, this is a document that we got from

13 Guinness & Mahon. It is headed:

14 "Gerald Hickey Trust share certificate number three

15 dated 21st February covering 9998 shares in

16 Crane Holdings in the name of Nifold Investments

17 Jersey Ltd." It say:

18 "I confirm having received the aboveshare certificate from Guinness & Mahon

19 Ltd, College Green, Dublin 2."

20

21 It is signed Gerald Hickey on 28th May 1993.

22 Is that your signature, Mr. Hickey?

23 A. That is my signature.

24 248 Q. Do you recollect signing this thing in 1993?

25 A. No, I don't quite frankly. Don't forget, this whole

26 thing failed. This was the Dolphin development.

27 249 Q. We will come to that. We haven't talked about that

28 yet.

29 A. Money had been lost.

36



1 250 Q. I just want to look at this document a bit more

2 closely. It is headed Gerald Hickey Trust?

3 A. Yes.

4 251 Q. And it talks about a share certificate covering

5 shares in Crane Holdings in the name

6 of...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. But Crane Holdings and Nifold were both Irish

8 companies.

9 252 Q. I want to ask you what they were?

10 A. Yes. Crane Holdings was the company that owned the

11 Dolphin Hotel.

12 253 Q. Crane Holdings owned the Dolphin Hotel?

13 A. Yes, in the first instance.

14 254 Q. Right.

15 A. And then it was subsequently transferred to a

16 company called Nemean.

17 255 Q. Yes. Can we just talk about Crane Holdings first?

18 A. Yes.

19 256 Q. Crane Holdings was incorporated by you, was it?

20 A. In Ireland, yes.

21 257 Q. In Ireland?

22 A. Yes.

23 258 Q. In around when?

24 A. About 1974 or 1975.

25 259 Q. And was it incorporated to hold the shares in the

26 Dolphin Hotel?

27 A. Yes, it was incorporated to buy the Dolphin Hotel

28 itself. It was the actual purchaser of the

29 Dolphin Hotel.

37



1 260 Q. And did it subsequently trade then?

2 A. Again, there was a planning permission problem. We

3 simply held the Dolphin. It had a licence and we

4 used to let the pub trade go ahead even though there

5 was nothing up above. And that went on for about

6 two years or more.

7 261 Q. Yes?

8 A. Then I got a kind of an indication that the State

9 was interested in it for a Court. As you know, the

10 Circuit Court is there.

11 262 Q. Yes?

12 A. That is the only reason I took a chance on the

13 development. I was wrong because the price of the

14 building went bananas in the course of the

15 construction. If there was a Gerald Hickey

16 Trust -- which there may have been; I don't

17 remember -- it was here. It wasn't a trust in

18 Cayman or anywhere.

19 263 Q. When you say there may have been and you don't

20 remember?

21 A. I just don't honestly remember.

22 264 Q. You think there may have been?

23 A. They refer to it.

24 265 Q. Just because of that?

25 A. Yes .

26 A. There was no limited company or trust deed.

27 266Q.

Just getting back to Crane Holdings, it held the

28 shares in the Dolphin Hotel?

29 A. No, it owned the hotel itself.



1 267 Q. And you subsequently did a development there?

2 A. Yes. That started in 1980. That is why I wanted

3 the money back.

4 268 Q. According to this the shareholder in Crane was

5 Nifold Investments?

6 A. Yes. That was because there was an intention that

7 if a profit had been made that the profit would be

8 exported.

9 269 Q. Yes. And what was Nifold Investments?

10 A. It was a Jersey company but it never did anything.

11 270 Q. And did you incorporate that company?

12 A. No, sure I couldn't have incorporated a Jersey

13 company.

14 271 Q. Did you seek to have...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. Somebody provided it, yes.

16 272 Q. It was your company?

17 A. Yes. I think Traynor provided it.

18 273 Q. Mr. Traynor provided it?

19 A. Well Guinness & Mahon provided it.

20 274 Q. Was Mr. Traynor involved in advising on this

21 holding?

22 A. No, I don't think so. Actually, he may have been

23 apart from providing the company I think.

24 275 Q. How did he -- how did it come about that

25 Guinness & Mahon or Mr. Traynor was asked to provide

26 a company in relation to this holding?

27 A. Because it was known that he supplied Jersey

28 companies.

29 276 Q. It was you who asked him?

39



1 A. Yes. I got the company from him.

2 277 Q. You wanted a Jersey company?

3 A. My idea was that if we made a profit on the

4 Dolphin Hotel, that profit would be put offshore.

5 And again, that the same situation would pertain.

6 278 Q. Nifold Investments was set up for the purpose of

7

8 A.

holding any profit that might come in?

Yes. But none came unfortunately. I think the only

9 reason that exists there is because Guinness & Mahon

10 were tidying up and they wanted to get rid of the

11 certificate and they sent it back to me and asked me

12 to sign the receipt for it.

13 279 Q. Right. You remember that was the situation?

14 A. Yes, I think I remember that alright.

15 280 Q. Yes. Now since this document is headed

16 "Gerald Hickey Trust" and refers to shares held by

17 Nifold, it would seem from this document that Nifold

18 was in some way connected with the

19 Gerald Hickey Trust. Is it possible that

20 Nifold Investments was a company that was going to

21 hold monies that would be settled on a trust to be

22 established in Jersey or the Channel Islands?

23 A. No, the company that I had some interest in in

24 Jersey was Twin Lakes.

25 281 Q. Right?

26 A. Nifold never became operative at all.

27 282Q.

Yes. Tell me about Twin Lakes then?

28 A. You can see that is referred to later as well.

29 283 Q. Yes. If you just tell me in your own words about it

40



1 rather than from the document?

2 A. It was a small company here.

3 284 Q. Yes?

4 A. Again I see Gerald Hickey Trust referred to there.

5 There was never any formal Gerald Hickey trust in

6 the sense of a limited company or trustees or

7 anything like that that I know of.

8 285 Q. Just tell me about Twin Lakes. Was Twin Lakes a

9 company incorporated in Jersey?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 286 Q. Again, did you cause it to be incorporated or ask

12 for it to be incorporated?


14 287 Q. From Des Traynor?


16 288 Q. When was that?

17 A. That would have been about 1972 or 1973.

18 289 Q. Were there two Twin Lake companies, one called

19 Twin Lake Investments and the other called

20 Twin Lake Jersey?

21 A. No, that is a misprint.

22 290 Q. Is that a misprint?

23 A. Yes.

24 291 Q. What was name of the company then?

25 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.

26 292 Q. There is no Twin Lake Investments Ltd.

27 A. No, that is a mistake.

28 293 Q. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.

29 A. Yes.

41



1 294 Q. What was the purpose of this company being provided

2 by Mr. Traynor?

3 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey)?

4 295 Q. Yes?

5 A. The one on document C £75,000.

6 296 Q. What are you referring to?

7 A. To item C.

8 297 Q. To document C (Exhibit 1)?

9 A. Yes.

10 298 Q. Document C of your documents?

11 A. Yes.

12 299 Q. If you want to take a break at any stage?

13 A. No, I will carry on while I can.

14 300 Q. Twin Lakes was provided by Des Traynor?

15 A. Provided by Guinness &Mahon.

16 301 Q. By Guinness & Mahon for what purpose?

17 A. For the purpose of holding the shares.

18 302 Q. In what?

19 A. In a company. I forget the name of the company.

20 It doesn't matter anyway. This company bought a

21 property in Grafton Street. And I made a profit on

22 the buying and selling of that property.

23 303 Q. Yes?

24 A. How much the profit was I am not certain because

25 that £75,000 referred to in C, I think that was the

26 whole purchase money. Obviously only a part of it

27 was the profit. I just cannot remember.

28 304 Q. So this company that Twin Lake had shares in was a

29 company which you were the beneficial owner of, is

42



1 that right?

2 A. If you like I was the beneficial owner of Twin Lakes

3 when Twin Lakes was the beneficial owner of the

4 shares in that company.

5 305 Q. Right.

6 A. Which owned the Grafton Street property.

7 306 Q. Ultimately the profits made by that company would go

8 to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 307 Q. You made a profit. That profit then went to

11 Twin Lakes?

12 A. It went to Twin Lakes. It went according to that to

13 Gerald Hickey Trust.

14 308 Q. Leaving that document aside, it is your recollection

15 and your account that I am interested in now. Your

16 recollection of this is that the profit on this

17 transaction went to Twin lakes?

18 A. It went to Twin Lakes.

19 309 Q. In Jersey?

20 A. Yes. It wasn't £75,000, that was the whole purchase

21 money I think.

22 310 Q. Right.

23 A. I think the profit made on it was something like

24 £25,000.

25 311 Q. Yes?

26 A. That is only recollection.

27 312 Q. In any event it was a profit and it went out to

28 Twin Lakes in Jersey?

29 A. Yes. But that is way back; that is 1974.

43



1 313 Q. Yes. Is it a possibility Mr. Traynor or

2 Guinness & Mahon in dealing with your two Jersey

3 companies, Nifold and Twin Lake would have had in

4 mind that they would hold monies that would be

5 settled on a Jersey trust?

6 A. Perhaps they I but it certainly didn't happen.

7

8

314 Q. As far as you knew the monies went to

Twin Lakes. You say no money went to Nifold, is

9 that right?


11 315 Q. The money that went to Twin Lakes was where then.

12 Where was that invested?

13 A. Guinness & Mahon had very little to do with

14 Twin Lakes except providing it.

15 316 Q. Yes?

16 A. And then I dealt with it myself afterwards and I

17 passed the profit to Jersey.

18 317 Q. Yes. Where in Jersey was it?

19 A. I forget, some bank in Jersey.

20 318 Q. Was it a Guinness & Mahon Jersey trust, a subsidiary

21 of Guinness & Mahon?

22 A. It could have been. I honestly forget. It went to

23 a Jersey bank anyway.

24 319 Q. If you look at your document C (Exhibit 1), the note

25 on it says "references herein are taken from the

26 bank statements of Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust

27 Ltd.

28 A. Maybe that is where the money went to. I know the

29 money went to Jersey.



1 320 Q. It seems from a statement of Guinness & Mahon Jersey

2 Trust Ltd, which appears in this document, that

3 lodgements were made to Guinness & Mahon Jersey

4 Trust of a cheque to the Gerald Hickey Trust for

5 £75,000. And also there is a debit to Twin Lakes of

6 £375?

7

8

A. Yes. I must say if they had the trust, I never knew

about it.

9 321 Q. You didn't know about it?

10 A. I was dealing with Twin Lakes (Jersey) myself.

11 322 Q. Yes?

12 A. Straightforward from me to the company.

13 323 Q. Yes. We can pass on from there.

14 Can I show you documents at page 21 and 23.

15 I will pass these two documents to you, Mr. Hickey.

16 (Same handed) page 21 is a statement from Ansbacher

17 Cayman Ltd. You can see that up in the top

18 left-hand corner there (Exhibit 6)?

19 A. Yes .

20 324 Q. It is not very clear but it is a bank statement of

21 Ansbacher Cayman Limited with Henry Ansbacher in

22 London?

23 A. Yes .

24 325 Q. It is an account in the name of Ansbacher Cayman in

25 Henry Ansbacher & Company, London. We have blotted

26 out everything except the reference to yourself.

27 We have "G. Hickey" and then there is a figure of

28 £82,005, a debit to that account?

29 A. I don't know what that is about.



1 326 Q. You don't know what that is about?

2 A. It may have been a borrowing for some speculation or

3 other but I really don't know what it is about.

4 I have never seen that before.

5 327 Q. You have never seen that before?

6 A. No.

7 328 Q. The date of that statement is up at the very top, up

8 beside "Ansbacher Cayman Ltd" in the middle as

9 "24th June 1996." Do you see that?

10 A. That is extraordinary.

11 329 Q. What this appears to indicate is that there was a

12 payment to you. And in fact the date of the

13 transaction is here on the statement as

14 21st June 1996 of £82,000. It is a payment in

15 sterling of £82,000 which was debited to Ansbacher

16 Cayman's account in Henry Ansbacher?

17 A. Which was debited to mean a payment to me?

18 330 Q. Yes, a payment to you?

19 A. That is a debit?

20 331 Q. Yes?

21 A. Yes. I honestly am totally taken aback. I am

22 really totally taken aback by that.

23 332 Q. You don't know what that could be to do with?

24 A. No.

25 333 Q. You can keep that document, Mr. Hickey?

26 A. It might refer to the repatriation after he died .

27 334 Q. Yes, that is right?

28 A. It might refer to the repatriation of the other

29 money I was telling you about, the other shares .

46



1 335 Q. Would they be repatriated to you?

2 A. No, not to me, it would have gone I would have

3 thought straight to Europe. But he may have put it

4 through something in London, I just don't know.

5 336 Q. It is made payable to you whatever this sum is?

6 A. I can tell you I did not.

7 337 Q. That would be a very small amount all the same,

8 wouldn't it. Would that amount equate the other two

9 shares at that stage?

10 A. My share was £70,000.

11 338 Q. Yes?

12 A. That might be one of the other two.

13 339 Q. Just one?

14 A. Yes.

15 340 Q. But why would one be made payable to you?

16 A. I don't know.

17 341 Q. Doesn't it seem unlikely that in 1996 the £70,000

18 would only have amounted to £82,000. There must

19 have been transactions in between?

20 A. They may have drawn on it.

21 342 Q. But were you not dealing with it for them?

22 A. Yes, not entirely. They may have...(INTERJECTION).

23 343 Q. But they weren't dealing directly?

24 A. I don't know. I don't think they did but they might

25 have.

26 344 Q. Do you recollect making withdrawals for the other

27 shareholders?

2 8 A. No, I don't.

29 345 Q. Or asking to have withdrawals made for them?

47



1 A. No, I don't. I have no recollection of that.

2 346 Q. The only explanation that you can think of for this

3 is that this was one of the shares and that it was

4 being paid to you. That would mean that you would

5 have to give it then to the other person. Would

6 that be right?

7 A. Maybe that I was supposed to put that through then

8 to Europe.

9 347 Q. Do you recollect that happening in 1996?

10 A. No, I don't. But as far as I understand they did

11 repatriate. I told you this; they repatriated the

12 money to Europe after Traynor died.

13 348 Q. At this stage I have to ask you who the two

14 shareholders were. It is relevant to our

15 investigation because it is clear now that they were

16 both persons or entities who held money in

17 Ansbacher Cayman. And we are obliged as part of our

18 terms of reference to identify such persons. So I

19 must ask you who they were?

20 A. I am in the difficulty that I might have to say I

21 must seek formal legal advice because I was told

22 that I was not entitled to disclose the name of the

23 clients. These people, as I say, were continentals.

24 They were nothing whatever to do with tax in this

25 country.

26 349 Q. So is your position that until you take further

27 legal advice you are not answering that question?

28 A. I have taken the advice. I have been advised that

2 9 I shouldn't.

48



1 350 Q. So you are refusing to answer that question?

2 A. I think I have to honestly. I am not trying to be

3 uncooperative.

4 351 Q. I understand. But I want to be clear that you are

5 refusing?

6 A. I think I have to at the moment.

7 352 Q. I see, right.

8 A. I don't know where they are now. I think one of

9 them is dead and I am not certain in Europe where

10 they are.

11 353 Q. Were there two or more?

12 A. Two people, husband and wife. And the husband is

13 dead.

14 354 Q. They were shareholders in Clonmel Estates?

15 A. They weren't shareholders, they had an interest.

16 There was no registration of them as shareholders .

17 355 Q. They weren't the registered shareholders?

18 A. No.

19 356 Q. But they were the beneficial owners of those other

20 shares?

21 A. I was holding two-thirds for them.

22 357 Q. They were registered in your name rather than

23 somebody else?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. BOHAN: They may have been

26 registered in nominee

27 names rather than in yours directly.

28 A. Yes, they may have been in nominee names. That is

29 right, yes. But I am not quite certain.

49



1 I have never seen that until now.

2 358 Q. Yes .

3 A. I don't know what is in this one.

4 359 Q. Maybe we will look at the other one?

5 A. I have never seen it either. That is outrageous. I

6 never had anything to do with

7 Irish Intercontinental Bank.

8 360 Q. Mr. Hickey, a lot of people are taken aback by Irish

9 Intercontinental Bank. That is very simply

10 explained by this: Anybody who had monies with

11 Ansbacher Cayman were able to use funds held in the

12 name of Ansbacher Cayman in Guinness & Mahon up to

13 1991/1992 at which stage the account of

14 Ansbacher Cayman in Guinness & Mahon was closed and

15 transferred to Irish Intercontinental Bank. That

16 didn't necessarily mean that the people dealing with

17 Ansbacher Cayman knew that this account was moved to

18 Irish Intercontinental so that is why you wouldn't

19 necessarily know that you had any dealing with

20 Irish Intercontinental Bank?

21 A. Yes .

22 361 Q. Nevertheless Irish Intercontinental Bank was dealing

23 with the Ansbacher Cayman account and so whenever

24 Mr. Traynor wished to have money transferred to the

25 Ansbacher Cayman account he would give instructions

26 to Irish Intercontinental Bank and they would

27 transfer it or do whatever the transaction was.

28 What this appears to relate to here is, this is a

29 telefax from John Furze as you see up there on the

50



1 that is to go to your account in Lloyds Bank?

2 A. Yes, I have an account in Lloyds Bank,

3 Knightsbridge.

4 369 Q. This is 1994. Would you recollect seeking to

5 withdraw money from Cayman in 1994?

6 A. I don't think I did.

7 370 Q. And transferring it to your account?

8 A. I do not think I did because I had no reason to.

9 I didn't particularly want money. But, again, you

10 never really knew what was going on in


12 371 Q. Yes?

13 A. I think that was after Traynor was dead.

14 372 Q. Yes. Trayor died in May of that year?

15 A. That is right, yes. I don't know what it was about

16 but of course the Twin Lakes thing, there was money

17 in some havens as they call them.

18 373 Q. Yes?

19 374 Q. And that may have been moved around?

20 375 Q. Yes?

21 A. He was an incredible man for moving money around

22 anywhere he felt like.

23 376 Q. When Mr. Traynor died if you wished to give

24 instructions in relation to any of the monies held

25 on behalf of these two people who held monies in

26 Clonmel or on behalf of your own deposits, who did

27 you contact in Guinness & Mahon after Mr. Traynor's

28 death. Was it Mr. Collery?

29 A. No, I don't think it was Padraig Collery.



1 It was either Mr. Collery or Mr. Corbett.

2 377 Q. But he wasn't in Guinness & Mahon?

3 378 Q. He had been?

4 379 Q. But at this time he was...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. Yes, at this time he was doing... It must have been

6 Mr. Collery. I know them both.

7 380 Q. Do you recollect contacting Mr. Field-Corbett to do

8 transactions ?

9 A. No, I do not.

10 381 Q. Is it possible that this is something you would ask

11 Mr. Collery to do perhaps?

12 A. To do what?

13 382 Q. This transaction we are looking at in relation to

14 Irish Intercontinental Bank. The John Furze

15 telefax?

16 A. I might have. Why I should have got £12,000

17 sterling.

18 383 Q. Did you meet Mr. Furze himself ever?

19 A. I once met him.

20 384 Q. Where you in correspondence with him?

21 A. No.

22 385 Q. Could you have asked him to make this transfer?

23 A. No, never.

24 386 Q. He wouldn't have done this on your instructions?

25 A. No, he would not. I met him once in Dublin.

26 387 Q. So if he did this on your behalf, it could only be

27 on the instructions of someone in either

28 Guinness & Mahon or representing Ansbacher here in

29 Ireland?



1 A. I think that is probably so, yes.

2 388 Q. That would be the case?

3 A. Yes. But £12,000 is a funny sum. I don't know

4 where it comes from.

5 389 Q. I would like to have a short word with Mr. Rowan.

6 Could we step out for a moment?

7 A. Of course, yes.

8 390 Q. Could we step into the hall?

9 A. Yes of course.

10

11 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

54



1 INTERVIEW RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:

2

3 A. I was trying to find out where I was in June 1996.

4 My wife drew my attention to the fact that we were

5 at Royal Ascot.

6 391 Q. That is a good place to be.

7 A. So maybe there was some reason for putting money

8 into my account in Lloyds in London.

9 392 Q. Because you were in London.

10 MR. BOHAN: Lloyds was 1994.

11 A. Was that 1994, I am sorry.

12 MS. MACKEY: Mr. Hickey, we shouldn't

13 have to delay you much

14 longer at all. I would like to show you a couple of

15 other documents. Can I show you a document at

16 page 36 of our brief. This is an extract from a

17 meeting of the board of directors of

18 Guinness & Mahon on 28th November 1974 (Exhibit 8).

19 A. Yes, I have this.

20 393 Q. You have a copy of that. The heading is

21 "Resident loans £10,000 and over" and you see your

22 name there?

23 A. Yes.

24 394 Q. With present balance £261,306?

25 A. Yes.

26 395 Q. This is 1974. The repayment date is

27 31st March 1975 and the comment is "suitably secured

28 excess due to interest."

29 A. Yes.

55



1 396 Q. "Suitably secured" Guinness & Mahon has explained

2 many times in public in the Moriarty Tribunal, and

3 it is now common knowledge that when they use this

4 phrase they mean secured on a deposit with one of

5 their offshore subsidiaries?

6 A. As I said to you in the letter, I know they did that

7

8

but I don't think that everything they said was

suitably secured meant that.

9 397 Q. Can I ask you, did you have loans from


11 A. Yes .

12 398 Q. That were secured in offshore deposits?

13 A. No, I don't think so. Well sorry, I may have had.

14 I may have had something that that was paid out of.

15 399 Q. Would they have been secured on your deposits either

16 in Cayman or in the Channel Islands?

17 A. It might have been one or the other. They were

18 switching money around.

19 400 Q. It is possible that your loans secured on your

20 offshore deposits?

21 A. It is possible. But they would be small. They

22 would be very small.

23 401 Q. Yes, I understand. I don't think I need to ask you

24 any other questions. Mr. Rowan will have some

25 questions all right. If I could ask you one other

26 final thing, Mr. Hickey: In talking about your

27 Cayman deposit I was asking you about the tax

28 situation and you said Guinness & Mahon sent you the

29 certificates ?



1 A. Yes.

2 402 Q. Of interest?

3 A. Yes.

4 403 Q. In relation to tax accruing in your account in

5 Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust, would you have

6 declared that also?

7 A. Yes. They would have sent certificates of interest.

8 404 Q. Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust would have?

9 A. Whoever any deposit I had abroad as far as I

10 understand it, I got a certificate of interest paid.

11 Interest credited or interest paid.

12 405 Q. You would have declared that?

13 A. I would have declared that. I sent them to SKC.

14 406 Q. You sent them to SKC?

15 A. Yes.

16 407 Q. And they declared them?

17 A. They would declare them.

18 408 Q. Presumably SKC would have documents relating to

19 these companies. Would they?

20 A. I don't think so. I think they are long since gone.

21 409 Q. Mr. Reid was involved in all of these?

22 A. Yes.

23 410 Q. He might recollect if we were to ask him?

24 A. I don't think he has anything either.

25 He is a bit like Mr. Traynor. He didn't put things

26 in writing if possible.

27 411 Q. I see. I have no further questions, Mr. Hickey.

28 Mr. Rowan has a few questions for you.

29 And then you can say what you would like to say

57



1 about your documents.

2

3 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. HICKEY BY MS. MACKEY

4

5

6

7

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

58



1 MR. HICKEY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN

2

3 412 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Hickey, the Twin Lakes

4 Jersey Ltd company, you

5 explained to Ms. Mackey that you were the beneficial

6 owner of this company?

7 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

8 413 Q. Were you the beneficial owner because you held an

9 interest in an intermediate body or did you actually

10 hold the shares yourself?

11 A. No, I think I held them myself. I am not quite

12 certain. The company of course is gone and

13 liquidated long since.

14 414 Q. I am not entirely clear. I am a little confused

15 from the papers where some abbreviations are used at

16 times?

17 A. Yes.

18 415 Q. What was the correct name of the Twin Lakes company?

19 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.

20 416 Q. Right?

21 A. That is my recollection. There was no such thing as

22 Twin Lakes Investments. Remember, Brian, I said to

23 you that was a mistake?

2 4 MR. BOHAN: That is right.

25 417 Q. MR. ROWAN: We can see from

26 Document E -- if I could

27 ask you to turn to that -- that Mars nominees held

28 shares in Twin Lakes (Jersey ) (Exhibit 1)?

29 A. But that was for the purpose of some security.

59



1 418 Q. I appreciate that. Mars nominees was?

2 A. It was the Guinness & Mahon nominee company.

3 419 Q. Effectively, does that mean that Mars nominees were

4 actually holding shares on your behalf as the

5 beneficial owner?

6 A. No, I don't think so. They might have held them as

7 security for advances.

8 420 Q. I appreciate that, but who were Mars nominees acting

9 as a nominee on behalf of if it wasn't for yourself?

10 A. In a sense it was either for myself or the

11 shareholders in Twin Lakes, whichever you like which

12 was the same thing. I was the shareholder in

13 Twin Lakes.

14 421 Q. That is the point I am just trying to clarify?

15 A. Yes .

16 422 Q. You were the sole shareholder in Twin Lakes?

17 A. Yes .

18 423 Q. And you asked Mars nominees to hold these shares on

19 your behalf?

20 A. I don't know that I did. I thought that I myself

21 stayed with Twin Lakes personally. I thought that

22 but I may be wrong. Do not forget, this is a long

23 time ago and I am not certain. You see this 1982

24 finance document, what that is about I have

25 absolutely no idea because the last thing that a

26 little company like Twin Lakes would be dealing in

27 is gilts.. We were speculating in property. We

28 were buying and selling property. The last thing we

29 would want in the world is gilts.

60



1 424 Q. Taking the document at its face value it seems

2 effectively that Guinness & Mahon were obtaining

3 some comfort because they were the holders of some

4 shares?

5 A. Yes.

6 425 Q. First of all in the finance stock and then in

7 Twin Lakes?

8 A. Yes. Or Twin Lakes held the finance stock and

9 therefore they took Twin Lakes shares into Mars

10 nominees.

11 426 Q. I see. I didn't appreciate that from the document?

12 A. That is possible I think.

13 427 Q. But effectively if Guinness & Mahon were trying to

14 derive some comfort from holding these shares, that

15 presumably was because they were advancing money to

16 someone?

17 A. They were, yes.

18 428 Q. Presumably that was to yourself or to the company?

19 A. It was to some other company. There were so many

20 companies floating around. There were about 10

21 companies in which I was involved floating around.

22 I had a bit of this and a bit of that. The whole

23 thing was just so complicated.

24 429 Q. Could you recall for us the names of those

25 companies, please?

26 A. No, I cannot, they are all long since liquidated at

27 this stage. They were all shelf companies as I

28 pointed out to you. What used to happen to me --

29 and this ties in with the explanation I wanted to

61



1 make about A. What happened was, I would be

2 instructed to buy a property. The instructions

3 usually came either from Guinness & Mahon or from a

4 firm of accountants. I would simply be told we have

5 agreed to buy such and such property for so much.

6 The deposit is so much. Cheque is here. Please

7 sign the contract in trust.

8 430 Q. Without wanting to change your train of thought,

9 what we are trying to deal with today is actually

10 your involvement with Guinness & Mahon and the

11 things we have been talking about?

12 A. Yes .

13 431 Q. Guinness & Mahon were holding these shares as a

14 security for some lending. That is what it appears

15 to be. Would you agree with that?

16 A. That is probably so, yes.

17 432 Q. All right. Mr. Hickey, could I ask you to please

18 turn to your statement at (j) (Exhibit 1)?

19 A. Yes .

20 433 Q. You say here:

21

22

"This was about the time I wasdeveloping Dolphin House."

23 A. That is right. When I say "I" I mean Crane Holdings

24 was the company that owned it. It was my sole

25 development, nobody else had any interest in it.

26 434 Q. Crane Holdings acquired the Dolphin Hotel?

27 A. Yes .

28 435 Q. Did Crane Holdings pass that hotel on to another

29 company?

62



1 A. It did to a company called Nemean Holdings, which is

2 also long since gone.

3 436 Q. Where was that company incorporated?

4 A. In Ireland.

5 437 Q. Okay. When I said to you it passed presumably the

6 property on to Nemean Holdings, is that actually

7

8 A.

what happened?

I brought the land in about the mid 1970's and had

9 to leave it there.

10 438 Q. Yes?

11 A. And as I told you, simply take income from the bar.

12 439 Q. Yes?

13 A. And then I was going to develop it starting in 1980.

14 And we decided then to put it into a new company.

15 440 Q. Why did you feel a need to do that?

16 A. I think there was some tax reason for it. We wanted

17 to have it as a new start.

18 MR. BOHAN: Also for tax reasons if he

19 was trading

20 ...(INTERJECTION)

21 MS. MACKEY: I am sorry, but we need to

22 take Mr. Hickey's evidence

23 so as not to cut across him.

24 A. We were trading. We had been trading and we didn't

25 want the trading company to be involved so we

26 transferred it into Nemean.

27 441Q.

MR. ROWAN: Which was effectively a

28 property company?

29 A. Which was a property company; it was a new property

63



1 company only formed then.

2 442 Q. Yes. The shares in Nemean Holdings Ltd were held by

3 Crane Holdings?

4 A. No, Crane Holdings disappeared; Crane Holdings

5 simply sold the property to Nemean.

6 443 Q. I see, yes. Who were the holders of the shares in

7 Nemean?

8 A. Nifold.

9 444 Q. Nifold?

10 A. Sorry, the shares in Crane Holdings. You see, we

11 didn't change it over. What happened was, maybe

12 that is why they gave me back that certificate. You

13 see, it was intended that the company that developed

14 the Dolphin, if it made a profit it would put that

15 overseas.

16 445 Q. I understand?

17 A. Actually that should be Nemean Holdings. We had

18 Nemean as well as Crane.

19 446 Q. Which document are you looking at?

20 A. I am looking at that document on page 41 (Exhibit

21 1). All they were doing is sending me back a

22 useless old certificate. They were cleaning up

23 because Crane was gone and it was Nemean that should

24 have been holding it, as I think it was holdings the

25 shares in Nifold.

26 447 Q. Okay?

27 A. They were simply giving me back a dead document.

28 448 Q. Nifold held the shares in Nemean Holdings Ltd?

29 A. That's right.



1 449 Q. Which was then the company which developed the

2 property?

3 A. That is right.

4 450 Q. All right. So that is what you mean about "I"?

5 A. I am sorry, I keep confusing it. I was the sole

6 person in that.

7

8

451 Q. Yes, I understand. In fact you say that the

borrowings from Guinness & Mahon ...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. For this development?

10 452 Q. Yes?

11 A. No. First of all, I put my own money into it and of

12 course that was for the second property. I had

13 previously bought the property back in the mid

14 1970's for £150,000. That was my own money and I

15 put that into it as well at the start of

16 development.

17 453 Q. Yes. I should have gone on to say, borrowings for

18 development were transferred from AIB?

19 A. Yes, first of all we borrowed for this purpose.

20 454 Q. Yes?

21 A. I did a great amount of other things with AIB, but

22 initially AIB agreed to finance the development.

23 455 Q. Yes?

24 A. They got cold feet at a certain stage. They thought

25 the thing was going wrong. Which proved to be right

26 in the end but I don't know whether they decided at

27 that particular stage. But any way, then I went to

28 ICC.

29 456 Q. Yes?



1 A. ICC agreed to take it over and AIB effectively were

2 taken out.

3 457 Q. Yes?

4 A. There were also these German shares which had been

5 bought, which have been listed there in one of the

6 documents. ICC insisted on getting the security of

7 those documents as additional security.

8 458 Q. All right.

9 A. Those shares are listed in "J" of my statement

10 (Exhibit 1).

11 459 Q. ICC said we will lend you the money?

12 A. Yes .

13 460 Q. They took over the borrowings from AIB?


15 461 Q. And they said 'but please we had need to take a

16 security on them?

17 A. Additional security, yes.

18 462 Q. That would have been a fixed charge?

19 A. No, what happened was it was only then that

20 Guinness & Mahon bought those shares. Actually they

21 did the purchase of them.

22 463 Q. I am talking about the property security. Would

23 that have been a fixed charge on the property?

24 A. Yes, the property security was a fixed charge.

25 But the way in which the shares were got,

26 Guinness & Mahon bought them and apparently they put

27 them into College Trustees which I never realised

28 until very very recently.

29 464 Q. Yes?



1 A. That is why apparently I had to give this letter --

2 which I have no recollection of whatever --

3 authorising ICC to get a charge on them. That is

4 referred to in some of the correspondence there .

5 465 Q. Yes. I will come back to the shares in just a

6 moment. I just want to clarify a point because it

7

8

is relevant to something which may come up a little

later. ICC took a fixed charge?

9 A. Yes .

10 466 Q. Over the property?

11 A. Yes .

12 467 Q. And that was their security?

13 A. Their main security.

14 468 Q. Secondly, they had a subsidiary security on some

15 German shares?


17 469 Q. These shares were owned by Nemean Holdings or were

18 these owned by another company?

19 A. They were owned really by Twin Lakes.

20 470 Q. The shares were owned by Twin Lakes?

21 A. And I thought they would have been in Twin Lakes'

22 name but I discovered then that Mr. Traynor had put

23 them into the name of this College Trustees, which I

24 had never even heard of.

25 471 Q. Unfortunately the Dolphin House project didn't work?

26 A. It didn't work, no.

27 472Q.

When you eventually sold the property, when was that

28 as a matter of interest?

29 A. I started to develop it in 1980 and it was finished



1 in 1982 or thereabouts and it was then leased to the

2 Board of Works to the State for courts. We then

3 agreed to sell it.

4 473 Q. With the benefit of the covenant on the lease?

5 A. Subject to the lease, yes.

6 474 Q. Yes?

7

8

A. We then agreed to sell it to INPUT, the pension

trust for about £2,000,000.

9 475 Q. Yes .

10 A. It was then discovered that the architect had made a

11 mess of the planning permission for the basement

12 carpark. When they discovered this they refused to

13 complete and we were left. That is why we took the

14 loss mainly because it cost too much to build.

15 Cramptons bill was far too high. Those are two

16 reasons why the money was lost.

17 476 Q. They reneged on the deal, is that right?

18 A. They reneged on the deal.

19 477 Q. You sold it then to somebody else?

20 A. Yes, that is right. We sold it to Silver Mines.


22 A. That must have been about 1984/1985, a couple of

23 years later at a loss of course.

24 479 Q. So when Nemean Holdings sold the building to

25 Silver Mines it incurred a loss?

26 A. Yes .

27 480Q.

That loss would have been represented I suppose by

28 an element of borrowings which was then not repaid?

29 A. Of course, a loss to ICC.



1 481 Q. Yes. I suppose effectively ICC did not get all its

2 lending back?


4 482 Q. ICC had a fixed charge on this property?

5 A. Yes.

6 483 Q. Why didn't they call in their security at some that

7 stage?

8 A. Well they did but the question was how to get it

9 sold to realise it.

10 484 Q. Who actually managed the sale?

11 A. Me.

12 485 Q. Was it the directors of Nemean Holdings, which is

13 you?

14 A. Yes. I managed the sale.

15 486 Q. Were there any other directors in Nemean Holdings ?

16 A. No. There were but they had no shares in the thing.

17 487 Q. They were nominees?

18 A. They were nominees, yes.

19 488 Q. Was Desmond Traynor one?

20 A. No. They were people in the office.

21 489 Q. Effectively you managed the sale. But was the sale

22 under pressure from ICC?

23 A. Yes, very definitely.

24 490 Q. At some stage you were a director of ICC?

25 A. I was, that is right. It was embarrassing.


27 A. I was a director of ICC I think about 1979 or maybe

28 it was 1978 to 1984. I was a director at the time

29 and the matter was extremely embarrassing.

69



1 492 Q. I can imagine?

2 A. Yes.

3 493 Q. So that when Nemean Holdings incurred the loss, then

4 ICC called in its other security?

5 A. Yes.

6 494 Q. Namely the German shares?

7 A. Yes, which had appreciated considerably.

8 495 Q. Did they ask for the share certificates or did they

9 ask you to realise the shares?

10 A. No, they had taken a lien.

11 496 Q. A lien?

12 A. Yes.

13 497 Q. On the basis of the letter that I am supposed to

14 have signed to College Trustees. They had got a

15 lien so that they were entitled to sell the share

16 under the lien?

17 498 Q. They sold the shares?

18 A. They sold the shares as far as I recollect, yes.

19 499 Q. I see, right. They were selling shares which had

20 been bought by Twin Lakes?

21 A. Which I thought had been bought by

22 Twin Lakes.

23 500 Q. But they had been bought by a company outside

24 Ireland?

25 A. Yes, which I had never heard of you. This is the

26 sort of thing Mr. Traynor did.

27 501 Q. Yes. You say that when ICC sold the shares they

28 made a substantial profit?

29 A. They reduced their loss because the shares were

70



1 worth a good deal more when they sold them.

2 502 Q. So that effectively there was a gain on the value of

3 those shares?

4 A. Yes but a loss overall to ICC.

5 503 Q. I appreciate that.

6 A. Yes .

7 504 Q. How was the accountancy sorted out as between

8 Twin Lakes and Nemean Holdings. How was the account

9 sorted out?

10 A. I do not think there was any sorting out because

11 Nemean Holdings simply lost money and Twin Lakes

12 therefore gained nothing. Just nothing happened.

13 505 Q. Did you consider whether there were any exchange

14 control issues surrounding the pledging of the

15 shares ?

16 A. No, I didn't know about this until much later.

17 I just didn't know about that until much later.

18 When did exchange control cease?

19 506 Q. In 1992?

20 A. I didn't appreciate at all that there was any

21 consideration about that, I was thinking only of

22 security.

23 507 Q. Did that become an issue at some stage?

24 A. No, there was never any issue raised.

25 508 Q. So exchange control was not something that was

26 considered?

27 A. Certainly not by me and I don't think by anybody

28 else involved.

29 509 Q. I see. Can I just go back briefly to the winding up



1 of Clonmel Estates which you said you carried out?

2 A. It was very inefficient unfortunately.

3 510 Q. Which you say you carried out as liquidator?

4 A. Yes.

5 511 Q. Effectively you had a pot of cash to distribute ?

6 A. Yes.

7 512 Q. That pot of cash actually represented a growth in

8 the value of the shares?

9 A. It was the profit on the sale of the property.

10 513 Q. Absolutely?

11 A. Yes, that is right, the shares had obviously

12 increased in value.

13 514 Q. So that in fact the shareholders therefore would

14 have been in position for gain in the value of the

15 shares?

16 A. Yes. And then passed a resolution to wind up.

17 515 Q. But the liquidator would have distributed that and

18 that would have represented in the hands of the

19 shareholders a gain?

20 A. Yes.

21 516 Q. To each of the three shareholders?

22 A. No. I was the only shareholder affected by Irish

23 tax.

24 517 Q. Each of the shareholders...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. I was the only shareholder, the others were only

26 office nominees or somebody.

27 518 Q. They were nominee shareholders acting on behalf of

28 the husband and wife who you acted for overseas ?

29 A. I don't think they would have accepted that.

72



1 I think there was only one other shareholder.

2 It was one of the girls in the office.

3 519 Q. It is important, Mr. Hickey, that we try and get

4 this clear?

5 A. Yes .

6 520 Q. When the capital was put up for Clonmel Holdings

7

8 A.

someone would have issued some shares certificates?

Yes .

9 521 Q. How many share certificates?

10 A. You are talking 25, 26 or 27 years ago. I just

11 don't know at this stage. There was more than one

12 issued to me.

13 522 Q. Yes, there would have been a share certificate to

14 you...(INTERJECTION)?

15 A. Probably for 99% of the shares in the company.

16 And there was one issued to somebody else for say

17 one share. That is what would have happened.

18 I would got 99% and somebody else as a pure nominee

19 would have 1%.

20 523 Q. That share would have been held in trust by that

21 nominee, who would have held that share in trust for

22 your overseas clients?

23 A. If you like to put it that way. But there so little

24 in it that it wasn't relevant.

25 524 Q. You were acting as their solicitor and their agent ?

26 A. Yes .

27 525Q.

I would like to be as accurate as I can?

28 A. I am sorry, I am not trying to be obstructive.

29 I never thought of it that way. I was simply their

73



1 agent and there had to be two shareholders in the

2 company then. And that was the only reason for it.

3 526 Q. So that the member of your office staff was holding

4 shares in trust?

5 A. They would have been, yes, if you want to put it

6 that way. One share, yes.

7

8

527 Q. For the actual beneficiaries who were husband and

wife overseas?

9 A. Yes. That in a way doesn't right. I was holding

10 for them all. There had to be two shareholders in

11 the company.

12 528 Q. So that when the distribution was made, which you

13 have agreed was actually in reality an enhancement

14 in the value of the shares?


16 529 Q. Then there would have been a liability, a capital

17 gain of some sort. And you said afterwards that

18 there was a tax consequence which you discovered

19 later?

20 A. Yes, for me.

21 530 Q. Which you didn't appreciate?

22 A. Yes, for me.

23 531 Q. Can you tell what that is was please?

24 A. That was because I got a distribution on the

25 liquidation of the company amounting to £70,000

26 which was my profit. I didn't realise what a

27 distribution really was. We didn't employ an

28 accountant unfortunately on the liquidation and I

29 didn't realise that that amounted to a distribution



1 which was taxable. That is what Brian reported to

2 the Revenue in the last 18 months and tax was paid

3 on that.

4 532 Q. Who were the accountants...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. The other shareholders were overseas.

6 533 Q. Sorry. What were the accountants and auditors of

7

8 A.

Clonmel?

It must have been SKC.

9 534 Q. They would have prepared a final set of accounts up

10 to the date of liquidation?

11 A. They didn't I am afraid. That is what happened.

12 The thing was done very informally and I never filed

13 any liquidators report in the companies office and

14 they came after me years later and said that the

15 last thing they have on this file is a resolution

16 appointing you liquidator. You furnished no

17 accounts. What happened.

18 535 Q. I see?

19 A. So then I explained to them what happened.

20 I told them the money had been all distributed.

21 And eventually they said okay we will strike off the

22 company. They just struck it off and that was that.

23 536 Q. And we know from what you said to us earlier that

24 the distribution of monies were given

25 to...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. Simply to Guinness & Mahon.

27 537Q.

To Guinness & Mahon?

28 A. Yes .

29 538 Q. And that it now appears to you that they went into



1 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd?

2 A. The whole lot did.

3 539 Q. And that was around 1978?

4 A. Yes .

5 540 Q. Yes. Were there any exchange control considerations

6 given to that transaction?

7

8

A. I think exchange control didn't apply to foreign

people. They could transfer their money, as far as

9 their position was concerned, without bothering

10 about Irish exchange controls.

11 541 Q. It was of course a transfer of funds out of Ireland?

12 A. It was, yes.

13 542 Q. Did you obtain exchange control for your element of

14 it?

15 A. No, I never did. I only realised it went out of

16 Ireland when I saw this.

17 543 Q. I see?

18 A. I certainly didn't have anything to do with exchange

19 control. I didn't think it arose.

20 544 Q. I suppose it has to be you because you were acting

21 for the overseas people?

22 A. Yes .

23 545 Q. You felt that exchange control didn't not apply to

24 them because they were overseas and it didn't apply

25 to you because as far as you were concerned the

26 money...(INTERJECTION)?

27 A. I didn't think it was going overseas.

28 546 Q. Right. You explained that from time to time you in

29 your capacity as advisor and solicitor to

76



1 Guinness & Mahon sat in on meetings with Mr. Traynor

2 and Mr. Dunne of SKC?

3 A. Yes. There were so many things going on. Mr. Reed

4 was advising all kinds of people about their tax

5 affairs.

6 547 Q. Yes?

7 A. Occasionally I would be involved, but I don't know

8 for who.

9 548 Q. The point I was getting at was, effectively

10 therefore you would have listened to explanations

11 about how discretionary trusts were created?

12 A. Yes.

13 54 9 Q. And the best mechanisms that were surrounding such

14 devices?

15 A. Yes, I knew of these things.

16 550 Q. And you would have been familiar with trusts which

17 would in turn have invested in companies?

18 A. Yes. I knew something about all of this as a

19 solicitor any way. I had some knowledge.

20 551 Q. Of course?

21 A. But not a detailed or expert knowledge.

22 552 Q. All right. Did we establish who owned

23 Nifold Investments?

24 A. Yes.

25 553 Q. Who owned Nifold?

26 A. I owned Nifold.

27 554 Q. You were the shareholder?

28 A. Yes.

29 555 Q. In that company?

77



1 A. Yes.

2 556 Q. Which was a company which Mr. Traynor provided?

3 A. I think so, yes. I am not quite certain but I think

4 he did.

5 557 Q. When he incorporated Nifold he issued the shares to

6 you so that you held those shares?

7 A. Yes because the intention was that if Nifold made a

8 profit. Nifold owned the shares in Nemean, in the

9 Dolphin.

10 558 Q. Yes?

11 A. And the intention was that if the Dolphin made a

12 profit the money would be put through Nifold.

13 559 Q. Yes. Does Nifold still operate?

14 A. Not at all. None of these things still operate,

15 they are all long since gone.

16 560 Q. When did Nifold cease to trade?

17 A. I haven't an idea honestly. I really haven't

18 an idea.

19 561 Q. Presumably could get hold of that information for us

20 through your advisors?

21 A. I don't think quite honestly.

22 562 Q. Presumably we could do a search in the Jersey

23 registry?

24 A. I am sure you could but you would only find that it

25 was struck off at sometime without ever having done

26 anything. It never did anything.

27 563 Q. I see.

28 A. So I think there is no point really.

29 564 Q. Okay. I am nearly through you will be pleased to

78



1 know. Did you or did you have any reason to avail

2 of the tax amnesty in 1992?

3 A. No.

4 565 Q. You didn't avail of the tax amnesty?

5 A. No, I did not. I didn't have any reason to .

6 566 Q. I see. This is my final question to you. If I

7

8 A.

could ask you to turn to your main statement please?

Yes .

9 567 Q. At point number five you say:

10

11

12

"I knew Mr. Traynor whom I found to bevery astute. He had many ways ofconcealment other than numbered orlettered accounts."

13 Would you like to enlarge a little on that?

14 A. That is exactly what I am saying applies to Exhibit

15 "A." You can see that there four transactions listed

16 at A. What happened as far as I can recollect is

17 that he simply or possibly some firm of accountants

18 instructed me to buy property. I never knew who the

19 purchaser was. He may have been involved in it

20 himself. It was simply a shelf company furnished by

21 accountants with nominee directors. I would then

22 buy the property. They provided the money and they

23 were very punctual in providing money. Then in due

24 course I would sell the property and I would send the

25 proceeds of course back to Guinness & Mahon. The

26 fact that my name is there and is on these things

27 doesn't mean that I had anything whatever to do with

28 the thing personally. As I said to you he had a

29 photographic memory. He knew every transaction that

79



1 was going on. And the only reason that he put

2 anybody else's name was in case he forgot something.

3 He knew I would have a file on it. He did that with

4 a number of accountants as far as I know. He put

5 their name there; that was all. And then some

6 figures and he could get on to them if he had to.

7 As I say, those figures there don't imply that these

8 things had anything to do with me personally.

9 568 Q. From what you say, if Mr. Traynor had sent you over

10 a document and said 'would you please sign that'

11 acting as a nominee or something of that sort, you

12 would have done that without really being interested

13 in the implications for you of doing that?

14 A. I might have but I doubt it ever happened except

15 possibly this College Trustees thing. That is the

16 only letter that I appear to have signed which I

17 have no recollection whatever of.

18 569 Q. Am I not right in believing that solicitors when

19 they act on behalf of a client usually want to be

20 fairly clear as to the basis upon which they are

21 acting if they are signing contracts for that sort

22 of thing?

23 A. Yes.

24 570 Q. For instance, if they are signing contracts for

25 purchase, they want to be pretty sure that the

26 client will produce the money when it comes to that?

27 A. Yes, but you see I was instructed by

28 Guinness & Mahon. And they always produced the

29 money on the dot. They were the best payers ever.

80



1 Then the moment you completed the transaction and

2 registered your deeds and had them all ready and

3 sent back the deeds to Guinness & Mahon with your

4 account, your account was paid immediately.

5 They were absolutely reliable financially and that

6 is why one acted simply on their instructions. Who

7

8

the purchasers were, I most of the time didn't know

at all.

9 571 Q. Yes. So that you would have placed a great deal of

10 confidence in Guinness & Mahon?

11 A. Completely.

12 572 Q. And perhaps in Mr. Traynor?

13 A. Yes, completely. That is what everybody did then.

14 People gave him millions, as you know. Everybody

15 had complete confidence in him. He was regarded as

16 a totally honest man and also as a totally able man.

17 573 Q. Yes, absolutely.

18 A. That is the way it was.

19 574 Q. Yes .

20 A. As I say, I was only a pawn in these things. As for

21 recollection, as I said we had a big litigation

22 practice in those days and all this stuff was only a

23 very small proportion of the work.

24 575 Q. I understand.

25 A. It was a very small proportion of the legal work I

26 had to do.

27 576Q.

Ms. Mackey wants to make one point to you arising

28 from something I asked.

29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. HICKEY BY MR. ROWAN



1 MR. HICKEY WAS EXAMINED BY MS. MACKEY

2 577 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is going back again to

3 Clonmel Estates Ltd and

4 these two foreign people?

5 A. Yes.

6 578 Q. I had misunderstood your earlier evidence and I

7 thought that nominees in your office held two-thirds

8 of the shares on behalf of those?

9 A. Yes.

10 579 Q. Now I understand your evidence to be that you held

11 all the shares except one?


13 580 Q. The reality is that you were holding shares for them

14 as well as your own, is that right?


16 581 Q. What was the basis of that; was it a gentleman's

17 agreement?

18 A. Yes.

19 582 Q. You agreed with these people that...(INTERJECTION)

20 A. Yes.

21 583 Q. Effectively you were a trustee of their shares?

22 A. I suppose I was, yes. But the one thing that they

23 did not want was their name to appear anywhere.

24 584 Q. Yes. So in fact in all documentation relating to

25 the thing you were the majority shareholder?


27 585 Q. And on paper all the proceeds belonged to you?

28 A. I suppose that is correct. I was the majority

29 shareholder but I had, if you like, a private trust.

82



1 I wouldn't have claimed...(INTERJECTION).

2 586 Q. What I am saying is, anyone looking at this would

3 say that the entire distribution was made to you?

4 A. That is not correct.

5 587 Q. What would be correct then?

6 A. That I got my share; I got my third share.

7 588 Q. What documents show that the entire thing was not

8 yours?

9 A. The only thing I can say to you is that these

10 tot-ups were something to do with it all.

11 I am not too certain which. But my share is the

12 bottom there.

13 589 Q. No, I understand that the reality of the thing was

14 that in fact you had a third share of the proceeds

15 and that these two people had the other two shares?

16 A. Yes.

17 590 Q. I understand that was the reality of it?

18 A. Yes.

19 591 Q. But as you say, they didn't want their name to

20 appear anywhere?


22 592 Q. They were not shareholders?

23 A. They were not Irish nationals.

24 593 Q. I understand that too, but they were not

25 shareholders more importantly at all?

26 A. No.

27 594 Q. You were in fact the majority shareholder?

28 A. Formally, yes.

29 595 Q. Insofar as anybody looking at documentation relating

83



1 to the liquidation of Clonmel was concerned, there

2 was only one distribution?

3 A. The distribution was wrong by me.

4 596 Q. There was only one distribution. That is how it

5 would appear now. In fact you had an agreement with

6 two other people that out of that distribution they

7

8 A.

would get two-thirds?

The distribution that I made was simply send off the

9 money to Guinness & Mahon. Then they split it up.

10 597 Q. Yes but that distribution was for the shareholders?

11 A. Yes .

12 598 Q. As far as you as liquidator was concerned, you were

13 distributing to the shareholders?

14 A. No, I never believed that myself.

15 599 Q. I know you didn't believe that. But that was the

16 reality of the legal transaction that was happening?

17 A. I don't know, I mean the whole thing was sent to


19 600 Q. Yes?

20 A. They knew what way to split it up.

21 601 Q. But in fact anybody looking at this company saw that

22 the distributions list would go to the shareholders

23 and the shareholders were Mr. Gerald Hickey and a

24 nominee who held one share?

25 A. If you want to put it that way.

26 602 Q. That is what was on paper?

27 A. That may be correct. There must be such a thing as

28 a verbal trust.

29 603 Q. There was a verbal trust between you and these two

84



1 people?

2 A. Yes.

3 604 Q. That in fact you would only...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. Yes.

5 605 Q. There was a gentleman's agreement at the base of

6 this thing?

7 A. That is right.

8 606 Q. And a paper transaction that didn't reflect that?

9 A. It did not reflect that, that is correct.

10 607 Q. That is grand, thank you very much.

11 The other thing is, I wonder would you write to

12 College Trustees Ltd?

13 A. Yes.

14 608 Q. And ask them for any information they have in their

15 possession, if they have any, in relation to Nifold

16 and Twin Lakes?

17 A. They have already been written to.

18 609 Q. About that?

19 A. Not specifically about that but about a number of

20 things.

21 610 Q. Right?

22 A. And they won't reply to anything. They just simply

23 won't reply.

24 611 Q. Would you write and ask them specifically for any

25 files they have in relation to those two companies?

26 A. Okay.

27 612 Q. Including their accounts or balance sheets or

28 anything they have now. If they reply and say

29 nothing?

85



1 A. We know they have refused to reply to questions

2 about other things.

3 613 Q. Yes. If on this occasion you would do that?

4 A. Yes .

5 614 Q. And if you would also write to Ansbacher Cayman?

6 A. They won't reply either.

7

8

615 Q. Let us at least be seen to do what we should do.

Please write to them and ask them for any

9 information in relation to an account held

10 in...(INTERJECTION)

11 616 Q. MR. ROWAN: I know you don't know

12 anything about the

13 Gerald Hickey trust, but perhaps you would ask them

14 whether in fact they can confirm that there was such

15 a vehicle?

16 A. I don't think they can even if.

17 617 Q. MS. MACKEY: If you wouldn't mind

18 adding that to the request

19 to College?

20 A. Okay.

21 618 Q. In relation to the deposits that were in Cayman, if

22 you would ask Ansbacher Cayman to give you any

23 information they have in relation to an account held

24 in their name referenced to G. Hickey in

25 Henry Ansbacher & Company, London?

26 A. The only thing I should say to you is that I

27 appeared before the Moriarty Tribunal.

28 619 Q. Yes?

29 A. And passed out.



1 620 Q. Yes, I know?

2 A. They asked me to provide them with a letter

3 authorising Ansbacher Cayman to provide them with

4 any information as regards to me, which I did.

5 A. Yes.

6 A. Which I understand they sent to Ansbacher and

7 Ansbacher simply did not reply.

8 621 Q. Yes, I understand that. But this is a different

9 inquiry?

10 A. Okay, if you want me to do it.

11 622 Q. The account number in Henry Ansbacher & Company I

12 can give you. It is 190017-101 and any other

13 information that Ansbacher have in relation to an

14 account referenced to Gerald Hickey or

15 Clonmel Estates?

16 A. They wouldn't have anything on that. They never

17 heard of it or saw it.

18

19 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much and we

20 are sorry to have kept you

21 for so long.

22 A. Thank you very much for coming to me. I appreciate

23 that very much.

2 4 MR. ROWAN: What will happen is that

25 we will get this

26 transcribed and we will then make contact with you

27 about arrangements to have it signed by you when you

28 have checked through the contents of it.

29 A. There is so much of it, it could be a mile long.

87



1 MR. ROWAN: Yes. Thank you once

2 again.

3 A. I gather that you then send some statement of what

4 your report will be to the person involved?

5 MS. MACKEY: That will be phase two of

6 our investigation. That

7 is set out in your letter. That is down the road.

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. MACKEY: Obviously we will

10 communicate with you again

11 but that is going to be some time in the future,

12 Mr. Hickey.

13 A. Yes.

14

15 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

88



t) .3.0 too



Appendix XV (55) (1) (b)



I, Gerald Hickey of 6 6 M orion Village, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4, retired solicitor, make thisstatement for the benefit of the Inspector's appointed by order of the High Court to Ansbacker(Cayman) Limited.

1. I acted as a solicitor during the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's on behalf of a number ofpeople wh o had business w ith Guinness and Mahon and I was also a personal borrowerwith Guinness and Mahon for a number of speculative projects.

2. I have long since retired. I am in poor health and I have no files or records save inrespect o f one matter which happened about 22 years ago. I learned much later, about 2years ago, that I was liable to capital gains tax on the distribution of funds on theliquidation o f a company. This matter has since been reported voluntarily to theRevenue Commissioners and tax has been computed and paid.

3. My share of the above distribution was placed on deposit with Guinness and Mahon andI always understood that it was so. I withdrew the money about 18-24 months later. Ihave no knowledge how Guinness and Mahon dealt with my deposit internally. If it wasplaced w ith any offshore entity, it was without my consent or authority. My intereststatement received was on Guinness and Mahon paper. Such statement (one p,er year)were immediately sent by me to my accountants Stokes Kennedy & Crowley (nowKPMG). I did not retain copies.

4. My name appears on documents relating to College Trustees Limited, tf I signed anyletter to that company, I do not understand why and haVe no recollection. I say that I

have no knowledge or information whatsoever relating to that company.

5. I knew Mr. Traynor whom I found to be very astute. He had many ways o f concealmentother than numbered or lettered accounts. He could remember the.most intricate dealingsand would, at any time, be au fait with any matter on which I dealt with him and wouldput the name of the solicitor/accountant who acted in any particular matter down in casehe had to check the details.

5. I acted as solicitor on many transactions forwarded* to me by Guinness and Mahon.Invariably, the purchaser would be an Irish registered shelf company. I would have hadno knowledge of the beneficial owners but would be acting on the instructions ofGuinness and Mahon. I would be instructed to sign any contract in trust for the

purchaser and would complete the purchase in the ordinary way for the purchaser.

I would be instructed to act on the sale and tosign the contract in trust for the vendor andcomplete the sale in the normal way.

Guinness and Mahon always provided the money.

7. I have seen the term "suitably secured" on some o f the documents recently received fromGuinness and Mahon and would have assumed that it meant many other situations otherthan a "backing situation", e.g. property security, or personal security.



I beg to refer to som e documentation recently received from Guinness and Mahon:

(a) Document A:

I have no knowledge or information relating to this matter. "J.D.T." obviouslyrefers to Mr. Traynor.

(b) Document B:I can on ly speculate what this matter refers to. I can on ly assume that thisincludes the full distribution of the transaction referred to at No. 2 . Afterdeduction of expenses etc. only a l /3 r i interest approximately was owned by m e.If it is other than this, I have no knowledge.

(c) Document C:I think this refers to a profit from the sale of premises in Grafton Street. It is

prior to the imposition o f capital gains tax.

I d o not know what the reference to the "Gerald Hickey Trust" is and I have noknow ledge or information to such a trust but it may have some relation to m yinterest referred to at (b) above.

(d) Document D:Twin Lake Investments Ltd. This was m y own company registered in Jersey andhad nothing to do with Guinness and Mahon.

(e) Document E:

I h ave no knowledge or information relating to the stock referred to or to MarsNom inees Limited or to Account399 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited.

(f) Document F:This may have referred to a sale of property to Irish Life. I have no memory of it

(g) Document G:The m atters here refer to me and I presume tax w as paid in the normal way as thestatements of interest earned would hav»been sent to SKC at the time.

(h) Document H:I have no knowledge or information relating to this.

(i) Document I:I have no recollection of signing such a letter to College Trustees Limited. Seemy reference to College Trustees Limited at No. 4. Tw in Lakes (Jersey) Limitedwas the company in which I was involved.

(j) Document J:This w as about the time I was developing Dolphin House. Borrowings in relationto that development were transferred from AIB to ICC Pic. ICC wanted a lien onthe property and on some German shares (referred to in the document). Theseshares were purchased offshore through Guinness and Mahon as part of the

overall deal. Dolphin House lost money for ICC but the sale of the shares made asubstantial profit for them, reducing their loss on the property.



C \ Document K:I have no knowledge or information relating to this. I did not have an Ansbackeraccount as far as I was aware, neither did Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited.

I have made this statement from memory and I believe same to be true. However, the mattersreferred to happened many years ago and may suffer from the normal defects of memory.



. ' • • ••«*•

t

J t

S X . - ^ .W L

Reported Details

J.D.T.

4 | « l i |

918.I Gerry

7 Hickey.

J.D.T. We shall shortly receive £290,000for deposit in Cayman. Agreed that

we will make available an overdraftfacility of £90,000 on a back to backarrangement. Friction will be 1$%.



UV.-I.UU ilXCKCy, 9* 261,306 233,382 31.3.75 Suitably secured - exccss due

o o o u i o C JO O ^ «



Gerald Hickey gj. j 53,524.84| 120,000 j 30.6.72 Suitably secured.



Gerald Hickuy si 102,372.43 100,000 16.U.72 Suitably secured.



GUINNESS & HAHON LIMITED

A P P E N D I X 70

\

B

Borrower

Gerald Hickey

Loan. 8a1ance O uts tan din ga t 30 Ap ril 1978 Oeposf t '

Cayman

£

Offshore

Guernsey

604,878 - 604,87859S,000 - •595,000

450,000 450,000

X J,179,486 400,000350,488 350,488 V

X 416,467 230,000

211,018 211,018

199,556 199,556

- X 264,867 147,967

125,000 125,000

124,449 124,449

113,648 113,648

108,447 108,447

61 ,488 . 61,488

V 118,904 43,000

•<. 69,035 : 25,000

9,269 9,259

5,002,000 2,481,614 -f- • 1,317,594

i y i j w i

• The bank holds additi onal se cu rit y in resp ect of many of t he above loa ns.

D o c u m e n t N o . 15



NOTE : References herein are taken from theBank Statements of Guinness & MahonJersey Trust Limited

File Nam e: - Gerard Hickey

20.12.73 Twin Lak es-deb it9.1.74 Ch eque-G erald Hickey Trust26.8.74 Twin Lakes - debit (amount not known)



NOTE : References herein are taken from theBank Statements of Guinness & MahonLimited - Jersey Trust/Trustees Account

File Name : - Gerard Hickey

16.11.73 Gerry Hickey Trust re. Grafton Property - debit14.1.74 Filing Fee for 1974 - Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.15.1.74 Twin Lakes Investments Ltd. - debit



NOTE ! References herein are taken from theGuinness & Mahon (Dublin) Limitedof Securities held for Guinness MahonJersey Trust

File Name: - Gerard Hickey

1982 150,000 Eire 10.5% Finance Stock 1982

N/O Mars Nominees Limited Account 399 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited



N o. 1. £2/949N o. 2. £201,366

Extension for period of one year to 31/12/78

9i% Fixed

Already taken up In the form of Loan Accounts"Suitably Secured".



NOTE : References herein are taken from theAnsbacher Correspondence files

File N am e: - Gerard Hickey - Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited

15.1.90 Geriy Hickey £5,000.0019.1.90 Tw in Lakes (Jersey) Limited Stg.£2,000 .002.4.90 Tw in Lakes (Jersey) Limited Stg.£2,50O.OO29.6 .90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited12.11 .90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited



File N am e: - Gerard Hickey

G - Jersey Trust Special Account

4.7.75 Refund G. Hickey



NOTE: File : Tw in Lakes Jersey Limited

File Name : - Gerard Hickey

9.4.84 Letter from Gerard Hickey to College Trustees in whichhe confirmed that College Trustees Limited should givean undertaking in a specified form to the Industrial CreditCom pany Limited regarding securities totalling approximatelyDM.600,000.



r \

NOTE : References herein are takes from theTwinlakes correspondence file

File Name : Gerard Hickey

J.4.80 Acco unt opened - lodged IR£7,875

15.4.80 Counterfoil for Government Holdings o f £150 ,000, onwhich interest o f £7,875 was payable

22.4.81 Accou nt opened - lodged IR£7,8759.4.84 Letter from Gerard Hickey to College Trustees re.

Twinlakes Jersey Ltd. He confirmed his wish thatthey should give the undertaking iii the attachedletter to the Industrial Credit Co., Ltd.

9.4.84 Undertaking from College Trustees Ltd. in which theyconfirm that they have purchased a list o f securitiesfor Twinlakes Jersey Ltd. The shares purchased areas follows -84 0 shares in BASF at a cost of DM .150540 shares in Deutsche Bank - cost DM. 199 ,530230 shares in BMW - cost DM.97,865825 shares in Bayer - cost DM. 150,645

19.1.90 Letter from Ansbacher Stg£2,000 to Twinlakes fromAccount 602

17.10.90 Letter from Twinlakes, Guernsey requesting that their

account 476608 be closed, there is a reference on theletter to CC401.

J

v j

V 1 '

< K

»



NOTE : References herein are taken from theTracing

File Nam e : - Gerard Hickey

26.10 .90 Ansbacher 01354602 Account -Twinlakes, Jersey - It had opened an account with Guinness & Mahon

on 15.11.82. On 26.10.90 IR£11,900 moved to Ansbacher 602

22.1.9021.2.90

2.5.9024.5.90

Ansbacher 03154602 Account <

j *



Appendix XV (55) (1) (c)



v . :

. •. _ • if:••• ' • • • • ' • : ; . '. . •'"

.•..'••.•••• - »• . Jfcfr•J. -.C:.. V.i v.. .. i ^rtVstfiSf/

••• • Y • ^ - i g m M

... . , . . . • . .5* «

GERRY HICKEY.!

CHEQUE £70,215.29 to.

for one mont h. Ru to

ratsapplicabls.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . , s

• . . - • «••» ... . • 1 ' » • M • * • ' . . . ^ 4.

V

1

\ *"* * v • .. v ta... . •• , • . x * * . • V * .4.*? • •* -- •• **

• * »v»W ? Y' ^' '«• I '1, « • t .ir>* A

m/ - - « • J L »'. » 11 1 » j 1 * *»' «» 1. Jy" ..V ' " v '.'v •• .Ijwfcl

'..'.I

, , . 7 .MI.W •f/.K* S - / ^ H.-tJVft

, • - - s r . - J v »

. 1. ....1 h I'.s.tai. . 1 1 1 ~ * 1 1 ri <n .. w»w 1 ti.iil

. .. . ..... . . — . ! — —

• • v Vi i f f *



Appendix XV (55) (1) (d)



r<

ggRALB B I O B T TOT8T

Share Certificate Mo. 3 dated 21st February 1974 covering9998 shares in Crane Holdings in name of Nifold Investments(Jersey) Limited.

I confirm having received the above Share Certificate from. Guinness t ahon Ltd, 17 College Green, Dublin 2.

SignedtGerald Rickey /

Date i



Appendix XV (55) (1) (e)



a n

M W I iM M VM

hitim icst m m

~ywu inniii

«iVv .

< n > c m i n

irmin . nu-iwiMoi

- r iJIMM

I MtWtl/1m • RiCKTr #S

MfMMft



J Mttl 2WUK9& »--«• ^y-101

.v.

II11H

Rtiit

Change

of

Address

W t t

Henzy Ansbacher & Co. Limited

M m Hi..* I M t ^ ^ f g ^ M o ^ y ^ w * * » »

ITATBiEWr OP ACCOUKT • '

- u«oos<oo

i

c



Appendix XV (55) (1) (!)



T r iTrvaf Orovp

TelefaxFrom: jgtn A* l u a *

>•410665

FK lM tIN 949 S t S f

Woo. in r ia

To : X&Lah intarecRtimafcal Budc - MallafXsBlud

Attention: is. n a n v a u t h a m t e

FBX N O : 011-3531-6783-034

Dote: 22 B m p b m b e r 1994

N o . o f P « p w Ala p m g m a d y

Woal dyem pIeU BttH uteS ra 1*00000utoDows:

L L O Y D S B A N K L O O T E D

1 D D

QiSdioy

Son Code: 30-948-1

Arccwmt N o . Q329953

£«HI o u r •coocnt wmrtw Q9UD1087/I1

p y w m m i w r a w m i o p i w w f M O M g r M U M B H U M H W I m i

V vviM fwfcwd te



Appendix XV (55) (1) (g)



frVr^.-r r ^ M H f c e T . yg ^ H

T|"1fl-1t r*"* 1 0 0 0 0

«B d (1) IwU.»i«h»l»

J t fcHW m^lr . * • -

0»r»l<f *tok«yK - Ml, SO* 93S, >1.1.74 lalMblr ••eiuwi - n » u .Am to int«rw

o



Q u i C o U U i t r e . U e e t i K J G r - o f u | / i / > l

Reported Details

y918.f GerryHickey.

J.D.T. Ife shall shortly receive £290,000ior deposit la Cayman. Agreed thattre will make available an overdraftfacility of £90,000 on a back to backarrangement. Friction will be li%.



Appendix XV (55) (1) (i)



GUIN.^ZSS A M A H O N LT?

wtiufCS rc J; \mt;-» . cJ

• •• SSI I>4«»S

* - . •»*«,» , «..«•• •».» • s...» ......

Our rei. 'D:ew

' t f t t u y

c < / t

17. CO '. LZ C: G.-.2SN.

O t s !_l N, 2.

P. O.iOX 53A.

16th November, 1971.

C-erald Hickey, Esq.,•rj - 26, Shrewsbury Road,

Dublin] • 4./

.•vi

Dear Sir,

Further to your conversation with ilr. Traynor,v/e write to confirm that we are prepared to make available-o you, facilities to the extent" of £100,000 (one hundredthousand pounds), subject to the following conditions:

1. all funds being placed at your disposal to beavailed of by you in the form of a LoanAccount,

2. though repayable on demand the funds have beenmade available to you for the period oftwelve months after which time the position

• will be reviewed,

3. we proucse to charge interest t a fixed rateof 9^%. Interest will be calculated on aquarterly basis and will become due on the31st December, 31st march, 30th June and30th September. •

The cheque for £100,000 drawn by you and paid inat the funster & Leinster Bank Ltd., Dame Street, has to-day been debited to the new Loan Account. Meanwhile, weshall be obliged if you would be kind enough to sign aud

/ return the attached copy of this Facility Letter therebyconfirming your acceptance.of the terms and conditionscontained therein.

Yours faithfully,for C-UIN2JESS & SIAHON LTD.



Appendix XV (56) Mr Jorge Hine & Mrs Margo H ine

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrJorge & Mrs Margo H ine.

a) Letter of 24 December 1986 from MJ Pender to BA U rsell.

b) Guinness and Mahon schedule re hypothecated loans as at 31 January1988.

c) Guinness and Mahon memo of 10 December 1987 to GMCT.

d) Schedule of GMCT balances prepared by Mr Padraig Collery on 19October 1987.



M.J.P.'to RA. Ursell 24th December, 1986

Bruce :

As requested I list hereundarpartJculars of the Accounts for which we hold backingdepos i t s from G M C T :

a) Non Resident Accounts ( which are included in the full set-.:effcategory for Central Bank Returns : -

J A M Hine 101,000.00



- 9t -

i«

Ifp amn 10

M m *~mrmi —athaeata« l>W8lit» 31 J U W T » H

L o u Deposit Met Bal Currency

1000 1000 (000

icayaan J & M line 13 63 0S$

III

i



« . <•

n

\

TO: G.M.C.T.

DATE: 10th December, 1987.

TEST:

Attention: Mike Shields.

Re: Jorge & Ms. Margo Hine Loan U.S.$100,000

Above loan was reduced by U.S.$1,000. Maturity date 21st May, 1988. Interest ra te 18% fixed.

Trust you will agree with above particulars.

Regards: Pa t O'Dwyer,

AUTHORISED BY;

DEBIT:

COST:

FILE:



VotVl OP « * U % A M A L .

£Ht>{

M m Ma

o7itoai7 Hint UStI

fry GWCurCL V-s



Appendix XV (57) Mr Denis A Jackson

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrDenis A Jackson.

a) Sehedule of names supplied by Mr Stakelum with his letter to theInspectors of 21 February 2001

b) Letter of 15 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon .

c) Letter of 25 June 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 17 January 1990 - Martin Lanigan-O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.



SCHEDULE 1

Name. Offthors Bac Ho DatoDapotf DataDapotft S * * c b * Funds Source of FundsBack loan. Opanad Closed OflWiora I1W1 Pounds.

Denis Jackson. Yes. No. Mid 1980s. c. 19S7/K None.

c



42 Fitzwilliam Square,Dublin 2.

1V>1: 765144/763065Fta: 612035

P.O. Bob 887, O m d Caymn, Brickh Woe IndiaPhone (809) 949-465V4

Telex: CP 4305Fn: (809) 949-7946

(809) 949-5267

15th January, 1990.

M. Lanigan O'Kaeffe, Esq.,Managing Director,Guinness A Mahon United,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

Dear Martin,

Cbuld you please arrange to let me have a Sterling Draft in the BUR of

Stg.£5,000 payable to Denis Jiackson and debit Ansbacher AccountMb.13154602.

I would like to collect this Draft cn Wednesday naming please ifpossible.

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Traynor.

/AJW



*

i Iftnifir i>*rlW fTirwj fudliftr ffuMfni n r

Pica* e p l y o:42 FftzwflHam Square,Dublin 1Td: 765144/763065Fax: 612095

M. David Huaphriea, Esq.,—v Senior Manager - Operations,

Guinness * Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

P.O. Box 87, Onad Gqraa, Mfak W m ]PhMKCNQMMin/4

T*kCT4NSFuc 009) M*-7M

25th June, 1990.

*

§

Dear David,Could you please arrange to let ne have a draft forStg.£5,000.00 payable to Denis Jackson and debit the costto Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Traynor.

JDT/AJW



17th January, 1990

Mr J D Traynor42 Fitswllliam SquareDUBLIN 2

Daar Das

I rafar to your lattars of 15th. January. Enclosed please finddrafts as follows:

Denis Jackson 8TO£5,000.00

The Starling equivalent of the XRP draft la £2,835.00.

Yours sincersly

Martin Ldhigan-O'Xaaffe

enc



Appendix XV (58) Mr Thomas Jackson

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrThomas Jackson.

a) Telefax of 31 May 1976 - JD Traynor to GMCT.



TO: ' J o i n i.Tttra«, Haq., Guinnaaii Mahon Cayman Truat Ltd.,

DATE: May, 1976.

TEtfT: v

On Frank tae'a Inatraetion* plaaaa tranafar 200.00 fro* TcrayJaokaea* a aeeaunt to <•

O'Conaox-a h t m ^ i Traral Inc.,583, Vast 207 Straat,Haw Tork 10034. 'Attention Barry ISronay.

j.D.mnroa

AUTHORISED BY: "

DEBIT:

COST:

Wtfc



Appendix XV (59) Jamila Pty Ltd

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating toJamila Pty Ltd.

a) Facsimile of 3 March 1981 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.

b) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr RH Tolley.

c) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Mr RH Tolley to Guinness and Mahon .

d) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to GM CT.

e) Letter of 7 August 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.

f) Letter of 2 December 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr RH Tolley.



: O

2 3 2 0 3 M A R S E l4303 6MCT CP

0 2

3 MARCH 1981

6 H OUBLINATT L0AN8 DEPT

REF WILSON BISHOP.TOLLEY BACK TOT BACK LOAM

• m J . V

• • « / • t - & \

' Vv. *

WE HAVE BEEN ADVISED BY MR TOLLEY THAT HE HA8 NOT RECEIVED THE LOAN V*A6REEHENT FOR SI6NATURE. I PRESUME THIS REFERS TO A NEW BACK TO, ; . ^ <

BACK LOAN. IF NOT ALREAOY SENT COULD YOU PLEASE EXPEDITE .

6UINNES8 HAHON CAYNAN TRUST

2 3 2 0 3 H A R B E I4303 6NCT CPE

tV

c



TOLLEYt MELBOURNE» AUSTRALI A.GUI NNESS+ MAHON L T D DUBLI N6. J.6i.

' I L A P / L

' . f 7 7 M7 / I FA CI LI TY LETTER OUTLI N I N G TERM S A ND CON DI TI ON SL E TO NEU LOAN I S BEI NG PREPARED AND U L L B E FORUARDED T O> JE COURSE W I TH GUARANTEES FOR SI GNATURE. FUNDS H I L L B E

RON COMPLETI ON O F NECESSARY DOCVMENTAI ON AND LODGEMENT O F. FU ND S WI TH G . M . C . T .

m D G . M . C. T. O F THE P OSI T O N .*• ••».« * i i •

Y E R

i i 08*',33127



REFERRING J ( Q H Y - . LETTER 15.1.61 RE6AADINS THIS SUBJECT HESHORTLY BE REPAYING EITHER UB DLR6 301000 OR lOOiOOO OEUTBCHfe;KARKSiOfVMRMER LpANB. TRUST YOU ARE PREPARES LOAN AfREE«ltfr

M I unrtanie MA DVD lUl.nnn I AAM TAlM.1t.';

„ _ . . . . ___ FUNDS. JMUkft r/V. Bu m IP in® ™ •AUBTRkj»SlSMjTOL..I 87 BUEEN STREET. MELBOURNE ACCOUNT NO.l fe-.flAHE ARE^IiyiWTp SHOW RESERVE BANK OF AUSTRALIA LOAN AGREEMEN

AND GUAR^pEES. | ' "'TOLLEY* 'T.s'2 3 2 0 S H A B ^ g t t t - .



Appendix XV (59) ( l ) (d)



m

m w x n - , • •:"

f p r i g ^ j a ^ I M M E I" ' • [ ' ' $ 2 9 3 4 3 0 3 +

Vj"03 6NCT CP

i f f ' 2 3 2 0 3 t M M E I

t o r •F R O N tD A T E I

j*.

• G U I N N E S S H A H O N C A Y M A N T R U S T

S U I N N E S S + M A H O N L T D D U B L I N6 ; 3 . 3 i .

R E t J A M I L A P R O P . LI

•it'

u « £lZ . y

e ' R E C E I V E D B A C K I N G . F U N D S P . M . 2 6 0 , 0 0 a1

A N V T H A W r• Y O U . U I L L u H O L O S A M E T V " O U R ' O U R E E O R D E R . 1 U 1 L L t o m ' K ? n o r ^ • ' * • P t f

, v f a c i l i t h l e t t e r a n d i-i" . - : * W I

. A C C O U N T . H I T H N . B . ' Of fE G A R D SP A T • 0 ' D U Y E R + +

4303 6MCT CP

2 3 2 0 3 M A R S E I

P H W f f SSB?-

• r. • ,(:iSfr*a



A p p e n d i x X V ( 5 9 ) ( l ) ( e )



Daar Mtk*»

W M O H W B O P I f f t l B y fi g Q fiy L TD * y ;.::.,; ^ f ^ j i ^ l

"' • ' ' T . • I in"? IXI'I • T* • • I I . ' •

? fit*?*

•S• • * . j : -

l.tafar to ourraoaat

in tncioalne

i1

v ' r i - t . .T-

M

In tha o i m of Jamiia Proparty Llmjtad.1 hava raoalvad ac ha qu a. .

raquaatiag Intaraat dabliadto tha acoouaton tha 30tbjuna, tha oradlt

lneaptton to data.

Copiaa of tha two Loan aooauntaln tha nam ao f WU ao nB ii ho p

Tollay Pty L t d . Cromjaauary l9?Utodat«7

• y t i . ' o t r m ' :

P.

' . 41

• V.

bacomaa payablaoh thaSOth Baptaob ar.M ft Sajoaiifair'/;3Cat Mar ch „:•. •.• .isf e,

and 30tfa jM B^ aa ry aa r^ >r 5

• * . > J

t • • :

* • • *" V -vvsv" .' .••I, .vv

D . M.40 ;027 4Va»pactivaly.^

• P .6*'f^^"•"•••••'sli'iifc

-cfc-.r;



/ ' Ax.-*-.-/-

• —- T-iiiiffrmiMirSSi.'

PatO'Dwyar • •• '" •y ^W ^mBanking Ma nag er V:'. * v r - r r ^ + f f i j ^ * ' , • • • •'*».

Tpfrrt

•••uUVJ

v"*? <••.•»> •> i r1,.

i. rttfVy**it,' •

. • . *• . r. V- .

MM i. • • •

. • ». , • . . ... v • V > • . ,-m ,...

i • • «• # • .'V'V -'Vuv* y/.H*••.».' r • .• • • v.-'

- •

J;;

•J . '

- V . . • . . •• y*;»V• i**' .•••> v1:.*"-!*'

'!• '»». , ,V ' I*--r • «><«>



Appendix XV (59) (1) (f)



^ U N K E B S C

tiOr Ref: PO'D/SC

J i m )

2nd December, 1981.

Mr. R. H. Tolley,Managing Director,Wilson Bishop Tolley ft Co. P ty. Lt d. ,628-630, Bourke Street,

MELBOURNE,VICTORIA 3000

Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. Pty. Ltd.,JMi!5_teB!Tl§t§nL!:lBiS!4

Dear Mr. Tolley,

I refer to recen t correspondence In connection with the above loa ns .r As the loansare now proving inconv enient to us I shall be obliged 1f you w ill(. kindly made arrangements/to repay the outstanding li a b il it ie s . Sums of

«t<to4.230.M. 3031770:10 and U .S .WtW W S ' will be required to repay the ca pita l sumsplus Interest as at 80th Pe6enibeP|198]:' The amounts In question should bepaid In to our accounts a t Deutsche Bank A.6 ., Postfach 2631, D. 6000 Frankfurt(Main) 1 , Account No. 932 6935 and Manufacturers Hanover Tru st Company,In ter na tio na l D ivi sio n, 4 New York P laza , N.Y. 1100 15 Account No. 544-7-23776under adv ice t o u s. The above figures have been made up as follo ws:-

Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. P ty . L td. D.M. Loan

Interest to 89*h December ill fliVIJi99

,40.874. T 8

Wilson Bishop To llsy ft Co. Pty. Ltd. U.S.$ Loan 01,664.74-Interest to lflth eeember -481:IS*

Jamila Proprietary Limited D.M. Loan

f o o t , c

1 * > e x > ct o S t . y/

* e t ~ v « w

I n t e r e s t t o 20tiUDeeember 8.706.95

Yours sincerely,

260,00(h00 A ^ I O S W

nW M I

«f gmtwi*..! f w

Pat O'OwyerMAJfc i siMi Mi NMM&



Appendix XV (60) Mr William Kearney

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrWilliam Kearney.

a) Letter of 30 June 1976 - TR Leonard to GMCT.

b) Letter of 30 June 1976 - TR Leonard to Mr Frank Lee.

c) Letter of 8 July 1976 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 17 December 1976 - TR Leonard to William K earney.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr W illiam Kearney.

a) Letter of 10 October 2001 - Barry M O'M eara & Son to the Inspectors.



Our Weft TRL:AB

30th

J.A.Furze. Esq..8u1 tiness Mahon Cayaan Trust Ltd.,P.O.Box. 867.Grand Cayaan*BRITISH WEST INDIES.

Dear John*

Also enclosed Is a copy latter froa Frank Lee dated 29th.June. 1976. and I confira having effected all transfersas Instructed fro® hare to-day. Consequently, -theMonarch Property loans have bean discharged 1a full andtha G.M.C.T. 'tr series In starling deposits have beeneliminated. A balance of $127.90 now reaalns on a G.M.C.T.*U.' Doltar Deposit account I opened to facilitate thesetransfers and perhaps you would advise ae as to tha disposalof these funds In dua course.

Kind regards*

.* Yours sincerely*

MANA6ER ACCOUNTS

zze ooeoeo/io//.oo/o



Our Ra f: TRLiAB.

F r an k L e e , E s q . ,W e s t b o r o ,M o n t e n o t t e ,CORK

re; Monarch Properties Ltd.

Dear Frank,I thank you for your latter dated 29th.June, 1976,enclosing cheque 1n tha .sua of S19,068. 70 to discharge.,the Monarch loans.

TRe dollar transfers to 1n.Houston and to.C.J. and A.M.Colllna 1a New York have been effected asrequested.

Iaa to-daysand1ngadi4«f t 1n tha sua of 917,018. 81 to . W

Jqhn Furze for credit to an account 1n tha naae of Nllllaa

Yours sincerely.

T.R.LEONARDHANA6ER ACCOUNTS.

eze ooeoeo/'to/'/.oo/'o



Appendix XV (60) (l)(c)



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED

Mi kMt Mo

Tmx »30« *

CsMtJUMrtN (MMMM

8tfa JUly, 1976

y a m t m t

our raf MBlOlb

ROlSm M7

trttkftWNttodbi

T. R. L m o l t B>I>

GolaMM a Mbon Zialted17 Ooilagp Q atmPnfrHr 2

Daar Ha,

I thank yoa faryour lafetar of 30th A w 1976 mtOadng

X h a w alao liquidated all tha " T lariaa taeling dqxxits.

WLtti regard to tfea outstanding credit of UB6127.90to GM London tea cradit to our 7 IVB UB Dollar

Thanking you in tbi»

'Xbuza ainoamly,



Our Ref: TRL;AB

17th* December, 1976.

Ml I.I tan Kearney, Esq.,

Dear Mr. Kaerney,

At the request of SuImmm Mshon Cayman Trust Halted I aneleaaherewith cheque In the sua of £10,418.10, repreaentlne U.S. ,Dollars 17,398. 23 at 1.67.

I should be plaeaed If you would kindly acknowledge receipt ofth is cheque by signing and returning the enclosed copy of th i s

Yours sincerely.

TI7T7

Enc/2.

ACCOUNTS.



r /<:/.

B a r r v M . O ' M e a r a & S onV

SOLICITORS

Our Ref:

Your Ref:

JAP /C OK/PUO121/8

C/K13/NSPM

18, South Mall ,Cork, I re land.

Tel : (021) 427 3305

Fax: (021) 427 4693

D . X . N o . 2 0 5 9

E-mail: [email protected]

Ths Office

Of the Inspectors of the High CourtThird FloorTrident HouseBlackrockCo Dublin

10 th October 2001

Re: W illiam Kearney Deceased

Dear Inspectors,

We confirm that we have been handed your letter of the 21 s t ult. addressed toVeronica Purcell. The Executors of the Estate of William Kearney are VeronicaPurcell and Peter Kearney and we are instructed by them to respond to you.

W e confirm that this firm acted in the administration of the Estate of the late WilliamKearney who died on the 19 t h of September 1994/ At the time of his death a thoroughand full evaluation of his assets was und ertaken.by this office for Probate purposesand the usual Searches were made in financial institutions. Arising out of thatevaluation of his assets no reference or evidence was found to suggest that the lateWilliam Kearney was a client of Ansbacher, Guinness Mahon or in anyway involvedwith or connected with Monarch P roperties L imited.

We are instructed by the Ex ecutors to inform you that our clients are very surprised atthe allegation that their father m ay have had any such an account. They do not have

any knowledge nor do they accept that William Kearney had such an account asalleged. This surprise is based on the fact that he was not a good manger of hisfinances and throughout his life he immersed himself totally in his medical career tothe exclusion of everything else. One can only assume if there was such an accountas you allege it was opened w ithout his instructions and/or w ithout his kno wledge.

We refer to the docum entation furnished by you particularly the four letters attachedto your letter and we m ake the following observations and com men ts upon the saidletters.

We refer to the two letters dated the 30 of June 1976, one written by T R Leonard to

J A Furze and the second b y T R Leonard to Frank Lee. John Purcell BCLSimon J. Murphy BCL

Catherine M. Deasy BCLBarry G. O'Meara BCLCrona Hughes BCLVirginia Harring ton BABCLnapComp

Consultants:John A. O'Meara

KE0233/1/4104lntwi 6d&)elan

Dublin Office:

26 / 27 Upper Ormond Quay.

mailto:[email protected]




(a) If an account ,vas opened in the name of William Kearney who authorised theopening of the account? Is there a signature on any docum ents opening thealleged account?

(b) Who are the signatories on the account?(c) Who controlled the account?(d) Who signed the Authority for the withdrawal of monies?(e) It is noted that the mon ies were in dollars. Where had the dollars originated

from?

We no w refer to the other two letters, namely, the letter dated the 8 t h of July 1976Michael Shield of Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust Limited to T R Leonard ofGuinness and Mah on Limited and letter of the 17 th of December 1976 from T RLeonard addressed to William Kearney (no address). W e mak e the followingobservations and comments:-

(a) The funds were placed on deposit for six months on the 8 t h of July 1976. Theywere withdrawn before the six m onths were up on the 17 th of D ecember 1976.Who authorised the withdrawal?

(b) Who signed the withdrawal docum ent?(c) On who se instructions were these mo nies moved from place to place as it is

quite clear there were no instructions from W illiam Kearney?(d) W e refer to the purported letter to W illiam Kearney Esq. dated the 17 th of

Decem ber. To what address was this letter sent?(e) The said letter of the 17 t h of December refers to a receipt. Do you have a

receipt and by whom is it signed? If such a receipt exists and is signed by o neWilliam Kearney please furnish a copy and we w ill let you know w hether we

believe it is the signature of the late Professor W illiam Kearney.(f) W ho instructed T R Leonard to send the said mo nies to a W illiam Kearney onthe 17 th of December 1976?

Neither our clients nor ourselves have any know ledge or reason to believe that the lateW illiam K earney was a client of Ansbacher, other than the evidence you havefurnished which in itself is not conclusive, in that you h ave n ot furnished sufficientdocum entation to show that mon ies were held in the nam e of the late ProfessorW illiam Kearney, nor is there any evidence that he received such monies. Mo resignificantly we have not received any documentation from you to-date to show hissignature attached to any documentation opening an account or withdrawing monies

from an account. It is also noted that your conclusion was that Professor W illiamKearney as a client of Ansbacher. Non e of the documentation furnished refers to aProfessor W illiam K earney. For this reason amongst several others we cannot acceptyour conclusion.

We are concerned that the letters attached to your letter of the 21 s t ult. includes thenames of other third parties, which appear unrelated to the alleged paym ent toW illiam Kearney. We trust that no such publication of the late Professor W illiamKearney's name will be made to any third parties or published without fulljustification for same and that no such publication w ill take place without this officebeing first notified so that we have on behalf of our clients the full opportunity to

consider same. Please confirm.

KE0233/I/41040L-I.DOC



Finally we wish to point out in the strongest manner that the letters you have sent usdo not establish that Professor William Kearney was a client of Ansbacher.

KE0233/1/410401/-1. DOC



Appendix XV (61) Mr John Kennedy

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrJohn Kennedy.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr John Kennedy dated 13 April 2000.

b) Letter and enclosures of 15 March 2000 - Mr John Kennedy to Inspectors.

c) Letter of 17 June 1993 - Cayman International Bank & Trust C o Limitedto IIB.

d) Statement of a/c of Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited of 6October 1994.



Appendix XV (61) (l )( a )



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN KENNEDY

UNDER OATH

ON THURSDAY, 13TH APRIL 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. JOHN KENNEDY

Represented by: MR. DAVID CLARKE

McCANN FITZGERALD

2 HARBOURMASTER PLACE

IFSC

DUBLIN 1



WITNESS

MR. J. KENNEDY

I N D E X

EXAMINATION

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO



1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,

2 13TH MARCH 2000

3

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Kennedy, let me

5 introduce myself. I am

6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. We

7 are two of the Inspectors who have been appointed,

8 as you know, by The High Court.

9

10 I should explain to you, as I do to other people

11 who come to us like you, that this is not a Court

12 hearing. It is not a Tribunal. It is an

13 investigation. We are carrying out an investigation

14 and we want to ask you some questions.

15

16 If in the course of the questions we ask you if you

17 wish to get the advice of your solicitor on the

18 question please tell us and we will stop asking you

19 questions.

20

21 Similarly, if your solicitor wishes at any time to

22 ask us to stop, that he wishes to consult with you,

23 he is a liberty to do so.

24

25 Mr. Kennedy, we take your evidence on oath and we

26 will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, now, to

27 administer the oath to you.

28 MR. CLARKE: There are a couple of

29 small points, Sir, which I

4



1 would like to make when Mr. Kennedy has been

2 administered the oath.

3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well.

4

5

6

7

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

5



1 MR. JOHN KENNEDY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS

2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:

3

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, Mr. Clarke?

5 MR. CLARKE: Forgive me, Sir. It is

6 just a few small points,

7 having spoken to Mr. Kennedy about it.

8

9 As you have said, Sir, the Inspectors are here

10 carrying out an investigation and I have confirmed

11 to Mr. Kennedy, and I think I understand the

12 position correctly, that the inspection is obviously

13 an inspection into the affairs of the company.

14

15 In the Inspector's letter to us, understandably they

16 said clearly, that in order for the purpose of doing

17 that it was going to be necessary to ask Mr. Kennedy

18 questions about his affairs with the company.

19

20 However, I think I am right in saying, Sir, that

21 the inspection is not an inspection or report in

22 relation to Mr. Kennedy's own tax affairs. I take

23 it that that is the situation.

24

25 It has a particular, I suppose, significance in

26 relation to Mr. Kennedy's own position because as

27 you will be aware from the statement, which we would

28 have submitted to you beforehand, Mr. Kennedy did

29 take advantage of The Waiver Act 1973 and by virtue

6



1 of that I think is the intention of the Act; he is

2 to be regarded as having fully dealt with all his

3 tax affairs and they would not be enquired into

4 other than under the...(INTERJECTION).

5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I know what you say

6 Mr. Clarke. If there is

7

8

any question that I ask that you wish to raise any

point on please let me know.

9 MR. CLARKE: I understand that, Sir,

10 sorry.

11 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Kennedy, you supplied

12 us with a statement and I

13 would like to take you through the statement and ask

14 you some questions arising from it. However, before

15 that perhaps you could just give me an outline of

16 your business history before that. You were in the

17 developing, the building, trade, is that right?

18 A. Yes, that is right, since about 19 -- what year?

19 The late 1960s I think.

20 2 Q. The late 1960s, yes. Had you a partner then,

21 Mr. McKeon?

22 A. I had a partner, Mr. McKeon.

23 3 Q. What was the name of your company then?

24 A. Sheelin Homes Limited.

25 4 Q. Yes. Before you established this trust had you had

26 any dealings with Mr. Traynor or Guinness & Mahon?

27 A. Yes, with a Guinness & Mahon. Sheelin Homes had

28 purchased two sites from Guinness & Mahon.

29 5 Q. From Guinness & Mahon?



1 A. Yes .

2 6 Q. Did you meet Mr. Traynor then in the course of your

3 business arrangements with Guinness & Mahon or how

4 did that come about...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. No, I met Mr. O'Kelly.

6 7 Q. Mr. O'Kelly?

7 A. Yes .

8 8 Q. Was it at Mr. O'Kelly's suggestion then that you

9 considered establishing a trust in the Cayman

10 Islands ?

11 A. I just can't remember that.

12 9 Q. Yes?

13 A. It was explained to me by Mr. Traynor.

14 10 Q. Yes?

15 A. Just exactly the first instance of it I just don't

16 remember exactly.

17 11 Q. You do not remember?

18 A. No.

19 12 Q. Yes. However, either Mr. Traynor contacted you or

20 Mr. O'Kelly suggested that you contact and talk to

21 Mr. Traynor about it, is that what happened?

22 A. Yes .

23 13 Q. Right. I would like you to explain Mr. Kennedy, in

24 as much detail as you can, what Mr. Traynor told you

25 it was proposed to do?

26 A. Mr. Traynor explained that instead of having money

27 in an account with one of the banks in Dublin like

28 AIB or Bank Of Ireland or whatever, which wasn't

29 disclosed income or not disclosed money, that if the



1 money were given to him he could put it, treat it,

2 in such a way that if questions were asked about the

3 money that the money would be effectively outside my

4 control and my ownership.

5 14 Q. Yes?

6 A. Totally outside my own ownership and control, but

7 that it was a question of being able to trust

8 Mr. Traynor entirely and that if I could get over

9 that problem with him then the money would be

10 outside my ownership and control in every sense of

11 the word but that he would have -- I would have an

12 understanding with him that at the same time while

13 it wasn't legally my money he would make it

14 available to me for whatever purpose I wished.

15 15 Q. Yes. Did he explain to you about the establishment

16 of a trust?

17 A. Yes.

18 16 Q. Had you ever come across a discretionary trust

19 before this?

20 A. No.

21 17 Q. Did he explain to you that this was a discretionary

22 trust?

23 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).

24 18 Q. Do you remember those words being used?

25 A. I don't recall those words.

26 19 Q. You do not recall it?

27 A. No, what the gist of it was, I remember distinctly

28 saying, that I would have no control legally at all.

29 20 Q. Yes?

9



1 A. Or ownership over the money.

2 21 Q. Yes?

3 A. Once I passed it to him.

4 22 Q. Yes. However...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. But -- pardon.

6 23 Q. No. Did he explain to you about the money being in

7 the ownership of a trust company and that you would

8 be sending a Letter Of Wishes as to how you wished

9 the trust company to use the money?

10 A. There was certainly a Letter Of Wishes. I don't

11 recall to whom the Letter Of Wishes was addressed

12 but that didn't seem to me important for the reason

13 that it was a question that if I knew if the money

14 was passed out of my control that it was simply a

15 matter of relying entirely.

16 24 Q. On him?

17 A. On Mr. Traynor's good...(INTERJECTION).

18 25 Q. I see?

19 A. Good will.

20 26 Q. I see. Mr. Kennedy, you did not consult any legal

21 advisor, did you?

22 A. Not at all.

23 27 Q. About this?

24 A. No.

25 28 Q. I am sure you had an accountant yourself at the

26 time. Perhaps, you had a personal accountant, had

27 you, for your own personal affairs?

28 A. I am an accountant myself.

29 29 Q. You are an accountant yourself?

10



1 A. And I did have an accountant as well.

2 30 Q. Yes?

3 A. But it was on the basis with Mr. Traynor that this

4 wasn't to be discussed with anybody else.

5 31 Q. With anybody else?

6 A. And I was comfortable with that just simply because

7 I accepted him at his word.

8 32 Q. You trusted Mr. Traynor?

9 A. Yes.

10 33 Q. Who were your firm of accountants then?

11 A. Buckley Delaney.

12 34 Q. Buckley?

13 A. Buckley Delaney.

14 35 Q. Delaney, yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 36 Q. They looked after your company's accounts, did they?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 37 Q. Did they look after your own personal tax accounts

19 as well?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 38 Q. You did not talk to -- was it Mr. Delaney who was

22 looking after them?

23 A. Mr. Dan Delaney, yes.

24 39 Q. Yes. Can you remember did you actually sign a

25 Trust Deed yourself Mr. Kennedy?

2 6 A. I do remember a document, quite a thick document.

27 40 Q. Yes?

28 A. You know, something like that (INDICATING).

29 41 Q. Yes?

11



1 A. I am sure I signed it. I don't remember, you know.

2 42 Q. Yes?

3 A. And I wasn't that concerned about it to be honest.

4 43 Q. Yes?

5 A. But I do -- there was certainly a document and there

6 was certainly a Letter Of Wishes.

7 44 Q. Yes?

8 A. They are the only two documents that I actually

9 remember.

10 45 Q. Yes. You see why I ask you that Mr. Kennedy is that

11 some of the evidence which we have obtained would

12 indicate that a person in your position actually did

13 not himself sign the Trust Deed, that somebody else

14 signed the Trust Deed, that you were told -- that

15 you could have been told that it would be a person

16 in the Cayman Islands who would be actually signing

17 the Deed. Do you remember anything like that being

18 said?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 46 Q. You do not?

21 A. No.

22 47 Q. You do not -- can you -- have you any recollection

23 of actually signing it or just reading the document?

24 A. I don't remember signing it.

25 48 Q. You do not remember signing it?

26 A. I just kind of -- I assumed I had signed it. I

27 don't remember it.

28 49 Q. Yes, I see, yes. What about the Letter Of Wishes,

29 can you remember signing it?

12



1 A. I think I did sign the Letter Of Wishes.

2 50 Q. You think you signed?

3 A. I remember -- I think I remember signing the

4 Letter Of Wishes.

5 51 Q. Do you remember what it said?

6 A. I think it was a very short letter and I think the

7 gist of it was that if I weren't around that the

8 money would be available to my family.

9 52 Q. Yes. However, did it indicate that it would be

10 available to you if you were around?

11 A. I don't remember.


13 A. No.

14 54 Q. Yes?

15 A. I don't remember the letter, no.

16 55 Q. Yes. There was a company established also in the

17 Cayman Islands, Penta Investments Limited, is that

18 right?


20 56 Q. Were you told about it?

21 A. Just the name I knew about but other than that I

22 didn't know. I had no details about the company.

23 57 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. I don't remember seeing the Articles or memorandum

25 or lists or whatever.

26 58 Q. I wonder did you see at any time, perhaps, a very

27 short statement of account of the trust in which it

28 would have indicated that perhaps the trust owned

29 the shares in Penta Investment Limited. Can you

13



1 remember that?


3 59 Q. You do not?


5 60 Q. Do you know who owned the shares in Penta Investment

6 Limited?

7 A. No.

8 61 Q. You do not?

9 A. No, I don't remember, no.

10 62 Q. Right. Do you remember who was the Trustee then of

11 this trust?

12 A. I don't remember, no.

13 63 Q. What about the company that was in the Cayman

14 Islands that was a subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon,

15 this Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited. Did you

16 ever hear of that company?

17 A. I don't. It doesn't ring a bell.

18 64 Q. You do not?

19 A. I don't remember it.

20 65 Q. You do not remember who the Trustee was in the

21 Trust Deed that you saw?

22 A. I don't remember at all.

23 66 Q. You do not remember whether it was the company or

24 who it was?

25 A. I don't remember, no. Sorry, I

26 just...(INTERJECTION).

27 67 Q. You left it all to Mr. Traynor?

28 A. Yes.

29 68 Q. Yes?

14



1 A. Yes .

2 69 Q. At some point then you transferred funds?

3 A. Yes .

4 70 Q. Again was this at Mr. Traynor's direction?

5 A. Yes .

6 71 Q. Do you remember how -- who you transferred the funds

7

8 A.

to?

I remember one meeting at the Bank Of Ireland in

9 College Green where we transferred, my partner and

10 myself transferred, money. It was just across the

11 counter if you like and Mr. Collery was there

12 at that meeting and the money was transferred,

13 literally handed over.

14 72 Q. It was not in bank notes I take it?

15 A. Yes, it was in bank notes.

16 73 Q. Was it in bank notes?

17 A. It was in bank notes.

18 74 Q. I see?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 75 Q. I see. He then -- you handed over the money to him

21 and he looked after it. He was going to put it,

22 sent it, out to Cayman Islands, is that it?

23 A. No, it was actually -- we were sitting -- standing

24 on the same side of the counter and I was here

25 (INDICATING) and he was there (INDICATING).

26 Mr. McKeon and myself was here (INDICATING) and he

27 was there (INDICATING) and we just transferred the

28 money to there (INDICATING).

29 76 Q. Yes?



1 A. And he transferred it over across the counter. It

2 was -- that was all.

3 77 Q. However, did you know where it was going to go?

4 A. No, I understood it wasn't going anywhere. That it

5 was...(INTERJECTION).

6 78 Q. Going to stay in Ireland you say?

7 A. Yes.

8 79 Q. I see. However, I will come to that now?

9 A. Yes.

10 80 Q. However, before I do so, the money that was

11 initially sent by you for the trust, for the purpose

12 of the trust?

13 A. For Penta.

14 81 Q. For Penta Investments?

15 A. Yes.

16 82 Q. Was given in cash by you to Mr. Collery?

17 A. And one other -- there was -- I also -- so far as

18 I can recall there was money in an account, in

19 accounts, with Guinness & Mahon which I think would

20 have been transferred but I wasn't involved in that,

21 transferred to Penta at the same time.

22 83 Q. Yes. However, Penta Investments was incorporated in

23 the Cayman Islands, was it not?

24 A. I didn't know that at the time.

25 84 Q. You did not know that?

2 6 A. I didn't know that at the time.

27 85 Q. At the time?

28 A. No.

29 86 Q. I see. You have learnd it since, have you?

16



1 A. I have been informed of it, yes.

2 87 Q. I see. What you said in your statement (Exhibit 1),

3 and I am quoting from the third paragraph. I don't

4 know if you have...(INTERJECTION)?

5 A. I have it with me, yes.

6 88 Q. Got a copy of it there?

7 A. Yes .

8 89 Q. Do you see in the middle of the page:

9

10

11

12

"As far as I can recall myunderstanding was that the trust was tobe established in the Cayman Islandsbut that the money would be held inIreland with 'matching funds' heldoff-shore."

13 A. Yes .

14 90 Q. Could you just expand a little bit on that?

15 A. Yes. That is just an expression I remember being

16 used at the time.

17 91 Q. Yes?

18 A. And what I understood it to mean was that while the

19 cash that I had with Penta would be in Ireland, that

20 there were some other accounts somewhere else that

21 somehow -- that instead of actually physically

22 moving funds around the place, that the funds I had

23 would remain here and that maybe somebody else would

24 have access to those funds and I would have access

25 to funds somewhere else. I don't know. I didn't

26 actually get into the detail of it at all.

27 92 Q. I see?

28 A. It was just a strange thing because Mr. Traynor had

29 this thing of just being able to exude confidence



1 and I just went down that road with him.

2 93 Q. Yes?

3 A. And I didn't enquire in detail.

4 94 Q. Yes?

5 A. It wasn't a big issue.

6 95 Q. Looking back on it now and looking at the documents

7 that you have since seen?

8 A. Yes.

9 96 Q. Is it not clear that Penta Investments was

10 incorporated, as you say indeed in this letter, in

11 the Cayman Islands?

12 A. Yes.

13 97 Q. Is that not clear?

14 A. It is clear now, yes.

15 98 Q. Is it not clear too that Penta Investments had money

16 on deposit in the name of Penta Investments in the

17 Cayman Islands because Mr. Furze was dividing up the

18 interest, which the money had earned, between you

19 and your partner in the company, is that not clear

20 from the documents?

21 A. Yes, that is clear.

22 99 Q. Now? Now, you did not know it then, is that the

23 position?

24 A. Well, to be quite honest I hadn't really thought

25 about it very much then.

26 100 Q. Yes?

27 A. I am not sure that it is inconsistent with the

28 concept of the matching funds either.

29 101 Q. No?

18



1 A. I am not sure.

2 102 Q. We -- I am not for a moment...(INTERJECTION)?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 103 Q. Arguing that point with you. I am just trying to

5 find out what, in fact, what happened?

6 A. Yes.

7 104 Q. What you now know happened?

8 A. Yes.

9 105 Q. Does it now not look as if this Cayman Island

10 company had on its books the funds?

11 A. Yes.

12 106 Q. Which you had transferred, given, to Mr. Collery and

13 that in some way these funds were on the books of

14 the Cayman company in Cayman earning interest,

15 which Mr. Furze divided up, and which you

16 used subsequently as part of the documents that you

17 showed to the Revenue?

18 A. That is correct.

19 107 Q. Is that not so?

20 A. That is exactly right, yes.

21 108 Q. So that, in fact, you were paying tax on interest

22 that arose in the Cayman Islands?

23 A. Yes.

24 109 Q. Does that not look -- is that not what was

25 happening?

26 A. Yes, that is exactly it.

27 110 Q. Yes?

28 A. The situation, yes.

29 111 Q. Yes. I just want to understand what, in fact,

19



1 happened?

2 A. Yes .

3 112 Q. I can see that your knowledge of what happened

4 now is different to your knowledge when the

5 scheme started, is that not so?

6 A. It is so but I am still not clear exactly, you know,

7 where the money was.

8 113 Q. Where the money was?

9 A. I am still not... (INTERJECTION) .

10 114 Q. I understand?

11 A. I still don't understand that.

12 115 Q. Yes. Leaving aside the technicalities of where the

13 money was?

14 A. Yes .

15 116 Q. You seemed to have had no doubt that you were

16 entitled to use the money that you had given to

17 Mr. Collery and Mr. Traynor?

18 A. I didn't. I understood clearly that I didn't have a

19 legal entitlement.

20 117 Q. Yes?

21 A. I passed over the legal ownership but that, under

22 Mr. Traynor's arrangement, I would be able to use

23 them. That was the good will.

24 118 Q. Yes?

25 A. The understanding of the trust.

26 119 Q. Because, in fact, the accounts you got were in the

27 name, were they not, of originally the Guinness

28 Mahon Cayman Island Trust and then later

29 "Ansbacher", is that not so? Did you not see the



1 accounts?

2 A. No.

3 120 Q. Did you not?

4 A. No, no. The word "Ansbacher" never

5 properly...(INTERJECTION).

6 121 Q. Never?

7 A. Never occurred, no.

8 122 Q. I see. When you got accounts from time to time?

9 A. Yes.

10 123 Q. Were these as a result of asking Mr. Traynor or

11 would they come automatically to you, do you

12 remember?

13 A. I just don't remember. I'm sure I would have been

14 curious about it. They came very infrequently like

15 maybe once a year or maybe that kind of thing,

16 infrequent.

17 124 Q. Yes?

18 A. And when they came they were on just simple blank

19 sheets of paper with some numbers.

20 125 Q. I see. There was no name on it?

21 A. There was no name.

22 126 Q. Yes?

23 A. Or addresses.

24 127 Q. Yes?

25 A. Or anything like that.

26 128 Q. The blank sheets of paper, were they rather like a

27 bank statement?

28 A. No.

29 129 Q. Which showed credit and...(INTERJECTION)?

21



1 A. No.

2 130 Q. They were not at all...(INTERJECTION)?

3 A. No.

4 131 Q. Like bank statements?

5 A. No, no. Not at all, no.

6 132 Q. Yes. They were as if they were typed up on a blank

7 sheet of paper?

8 A. Yes.

9 133 Q. The figures?

10 A. Absolutely, yes.

11 134 Q. What did those figures show?

12 A. They showed how the balance on -- I presume -- I

13 just can't remember now. I think it would have

14 shown the balance of say Penta Limited under

15 whatever denominations, dollars, sterling and

16 whatever maybe three or four lines.

17 135 Q. However, it was in the name of Penta Investments

18 Limited, is that right?

19 A. As far as I am remember, yes.

20 136 Q. As far as you remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 137 Q. Yes. This showed you what account, what deposits,

23 the company held?

24 A. Yes, the accumulated...(INTERJECTION).

25 138 Q. The accumulated?

26 A. Value.

27 139 Q. Value?

28 A. Of that money, yes.

29 140 Q. If we could just develop it a little bit. If you

22



1 turn over the page to the paragraph beginning

2 (Exhibit 1):

3 "From time to time I receivedstatements"?

4

5 A. Yes.

6 141 Q. It reads:

7 "I was asked from time to time in whatcurrency I wished to have the funds or

8 parts of the funds denominated..."

9

10 A. Yes.

11 142 Q.

"...and I chose currencies from time to

12 time..."?

13

14 A. Yes.

15 143 Q. Who asked you about that Mr. Kennedy? Was it

16 Mr. Traynor?

17 A. Either Mr. O'Kelly or Mr. Traynor.

18 144 Q. Mr. O'Kelly or Mr. Traynor?

19 A. Yes.

20 145 Q. Would you have talked with both of them about this?

21 A. I am sure I did. There were very few conversations

22 about it.

23 146 Q. Yes?

24 A. It wasn't -- you know what I mean? It wasn't a

25 thing where there was a lot of communication. There

26 was very little communication.

27 147 Q. Yes?

28 A. Yes.

29 148 Q. You say:

23



1

2 A.

"I chose currencies from time to timeas I thought were most profitable"?

Yes .

3 149 Q. Would you say, "Well, I would like so much of my

4 funds in dollars security, in dollars, or so much

5 of my funds in Deutschemarks." Is that what

6 happened?

7 A. That is exactly, yes.

8 150 Q. You knew they were on deposit, is that right?

9 A. Yes. They were on deposit in effect. I knew they

10 were on deposit, yes.

11 151 Q. Yes?

12 A. I didn't get into -- it didn't strike me, you

13 know, as to where or when and so on. I thought

14 Mr. Traynor was kind of running some kind of

15 arrangement where he could -- everything seemed to

16 be really easy for him and the money was on deposit.

17 152 Q. The money was on deposit?

18 A. Yes .

19 153 Q. Then it was on deposit in sterling, some of it was

20 in a sterling account, is that right? Some of it

21 was in a dollar account and some of it was in a

22 Deutschemarks, is that what you understood?

23 A. They were denominated in those currencies.

24 154 Q. Denominated in those?

25 A. What I mean by that, I think, is I assumed

26 Mr. Traynor had sufficient, you know, he had --

27 whatever large funds he was dealing with he could

28 say -- he could place your -- give you denominations

29 in whatever way you wanted it.

24



1 155 Q. Yes?

2 A. And you took your chances on it in that way.

3 156 Q. What you mean by that is that if the currency

4 appreciated you would gain by it?

5 A. Yes .

6 157 Q. Is that it?


8 158 Q. You would have known also, of course, that the money

9 was earning interest?

10 A. Yes .

11 159 Q. From the knowledge you have since received

12 Mr. Kennedy, are you aware that, in fact, the

13 money to which you were entitled was held in a

14 coded account in "Ansbacher's" name, or in

15 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust's name as it then

16 was, in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?

17 A. No.

18 160 Q. Did you know that it was in a coded account?

19 A. No, I didn't know.

20 161 Q. Yes. I would just like to refer you to a letter.

21 It is page 66 (Exhibit 2) (Same Handed)?

22 A. Thank you.

23 162 Q. It is a letter of the 17th June 1993. It is at

24 the time of the amnesty, the time you were

25 arranging, I think, to pay the arrears of taxes.

26 This is a letter from The Cayman International Bank

27 And Trust Company. It is from Joan Williams, you

28 will see. That is Mr. Traynor's secretary. It is

29 to The Irish Intercontinental Bank?



1 A. Yes.

2 163 Q. If I may pause there? Did you know that funds

3 over which you had control were in The Irish

4 Intercontinental Bank?

5 A. No.


7 A. No.

8 165 Q. Did you think that your funds were still in some way

9 associated with Guinness & Mahon?

10 A. Yes.

11 166 Q. Did you know that, in fact, Mr. Traynor had left


13 A. I knew he left. I can't remember just what date.

14 167 Q. The date?

15 A. I do remember.

16 168 Q. Yes?

17 A. I did know he left at some stage.

18 169 Q. However, even thought he left you still assumed?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 170 Q. That the funds were in Guinness & Mahon?

21 A. Yes.

22 171 Q. Yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 172 Q. It is just that I want to refer you there in

25 this letter (Exhibit 2), which is addressed to

26 Mr. Redmond in The Irish Intercontinental Bank. It

27 is referring to the movement of funds. You will see

28 on the third line:

29 "Holding on deposit under reference B/Pand B/Q."

26



1

2 Then if you look further down the paragraph?

3 A. Yes.

4 173 Q. You will see:

5

"DMs in Account Ref. B/P..."

6

7 And then:

8 "US$ in Account Ref. B/P."

9 You do not know that that was the code used in the

10 account for your funds?

11 A. No.

12 174 Q. You do not know that?

13 A. No, I don't know that, no.

14 175 Q. You do not know, do you, that the account, that

15 the funds over which you had control, in

16 Guinness & Mahon were also under the code B/P?

17 A. No.

18 176 Q. You do not know anything about that?

19 A. No. Could I just say?

20 177 Q. Yes?

21 A. That the 17th June 1993, that was — that is the

22 date on that letter.

23 178 Q. That is right, yes?

24 A. That the amnesty thing didn't arise until December,

25 November or December 1993.

26 179 Q. Yes?

27 A. So, this wouldn't have been connected with that.

28 180 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?

29 A. Was it?

27



1 181 Q. Perhaps, I am wrong then about that?

2 A. Yes.

3 182 Q. Because -- you can tell me. The records show

4 that your money was moved at that time to the

5 Isle Of Man. Did you know that?

6 A. No.


8 A. No.

9 184 Q. Did Mr. Traynor tell you that this was being done?

10 A. No. I have no recollection of that any way.

11 185 Q. You see Mr. Kennedy the records show that, for

12 reasons that have not yet been divulged, Mr. Traynor

13 at this time in June moved all your money to the

14 Isle Of Man and then back again to Dublin. You did

15 not know that?

16 A. No.

17 186 Q. While I am on this subject, I am just trying to get

18 you to be as specific as you can be, when did you

19 decide that you were going to go to The Revenue and

20 make a payment of arrears of taxes? When did you

21 decide that?

22 A. Sometime in 1993.

23 187 Q. I am just wondering was it in June 1993?

24 A. No. I think I am pretty certain. I think it is

25 much later than that.

26 188 Q. Yes?

27 A. Much later than that.

28 189 Q. I see. I know the actual payment was made much

29 later?

28



1 A. Yes.

2 190 Q. The payment was made in December or so?

3 A. Yes.

4 191 Q. Of 1993 — January 1994, the payment was made?

5 A. The payment was made in January 1994.

6 192 Q. Yes?

7 A. But the declaration was made, I think, in

8 December 1993.

9 193 Q. I see?

10 A. November or December 1993.

11 194 Q. It was later than this?

12 A. Yes.

13 195 Q. That... (INTERJECTION)?

14 A. And I didn't discuss that intention to do that.

15 196 Q. There was talk?

16 A. With Mr. Traynor until around November or December.

17 197 Q. Yes. I will return to that in a few moments. If

18 you look at your statement, the second page of your

19 statement (Exhibit 1)?

20 A. Yes.

21 198 Q. Do you see the paragraph starting:

22

"In or about 1990 I discussed

23 arrangements..."?

24

25 A. Yes.

26 199 Q.

"... under which AIB. . ."?

27

28 A. Yes.

29 200 Q.

"...would advance money for the

29



1 purchase and development of land on thesecurity of a guarantee to be given by

2 Guinness & Mahon..."?

3

4 A. Yes.

5 201 Q.

"...which might be partly secured by

6 funds in Penta Investments Limited."?

7

8 A. Yes.

9 202 Q. Can you remember the details of this?

10 A. What I remember is Mr. Traynor being in touch with

11 AIB and I presume I arranged either with Mr. Traynor

12 with AIB to contact each other, to be in touch, and

13 to have a conversation whereby words of comfort, or

14 letters of comfort, would be exchanged or that a

15 letter of guarantee or whatever would pass.

16 203 Q. Yes?

17 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

18 204 Q. A letter of guarantee from?

19 A. From Mr. Traynor to AIB.

20 205 Q. Yes?

21 A. To support the borrowings that we had in relation

22 to...(INTERJECTION).

23 206 Q. You say a guarantee:

24 "The security of a guarantee to begiven by Guinness & Mahon."

25

26 Is that right?

27 A. Yes, that is what I understood.

28 207 Q. Yes. Then Guinness & Mahon then in turn would look

29 for some security from you in respect of the

30



1 guarantee and that was to be the funds of Penta

2 Investments, is that right?

3 A. Well, he didn't have to look to me because he had

4 it. I mean he was controlling Penta.

5 208 Q. Yes?

6 A. So, I wasn't -- I didn't have to sign anything or

7 do anything like that.

8 209 Q. You did not sign anything?

9 A. No.

10 210 Q. However, did you know that, in fact, that Penta

11 Investment's interest in deposits were going to

12 be used as security?

13 A. That was my understanding.

14 211 Q. Did you not also know Mr. Kennedy that if you

15 wanted to you could personally withdraw funds

16 from the deposits which were held?

17 A. Yes, I did know that.

18 212 Q. You did know that?

19 A. Yes.

20 213 Q. You did, in fact, withdraw personally, did you not?

21 A. No.

22 214 Q. I am...(INTERJECTION)?


24 215 Q. Perhaps your recollection...(INTERJECTION)?


26 216 Q. Your recollection is mistaken?

27 A. Yes.

28 217 Q. Because I just want to draw you attention to this.

29 It is page 50 and then the backing document (Same

31



1 Handed) (Exhibit 3)?

2 A. Thank you.

3 218 Q. The photostat is not very good I am afraid. This

4 is the Cayman International Bank & Trust Company

5 Limited account in Irish Intercontinental Bank. Do

6 you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 219 Q. It is June 1993?

9 A. Yes.

10 220 Q. Do you see the entry that is highlighted?

11 A. Yes.

12 221 Q. It is the 17th June and it is a debit of £9,835?

13 A. Yes.

14 222 Q. If you just turn over the page to the backing

15 document?

16 A. Yes.

17 223 Q. The customer is

18 "CIBTC"

19

20 and you will see that there at the top?

21 A. Yes.

22 224 Q. You will see:

23 "OUT TO - Client's Instructions"

24

25 frame and you will see:

2 6 "Cheque"?

27

28 A. Yes.

29 225 Q.

"For order of John Kennedy"?

32



1

2 A. Yes.

3 226 Q. It would seem as if this was a cheque which was

4 paid out of the Cayman International Bank's

5 account in your favour?

6 A. Yes.

7 227 Q. Would you agree with that?

8 A. Yes, it certainly does seem like that, yes.

9 228 Q. Yes. It would seem that you drew that money from

10 this account. Can you remember that?

11 A. I don't remember it.

12 229 Q. You do not remember that?

13 A. I don't remember it, no.

14 230 Q. It looks very clear that it happened?

15 A. Certainly that would...(INTERJECTION).

16 231 Q. Would indicate it?

17 A. That would indicate it, yes.

18 232 Q. If we could turn now to the amnesty?

19 A. Yes.

20 233 Q. How did it come about that you decided that The

21 Statute that was enacted by the Oireachtas at that

22 time was one which applied to you? How did you come

23 to that conclusion? Did you take advice and whose

24 advice did you take?

25 A. No, it was -- there was a lot of discussion about it

26 that year and I just decided to do it.

27 234 Q. Whose advice, who did you discuss it with? What

28 professional advisor did you discuss it with?

29 A. No, I came to the conclusion myself that that was

33



1 the thing to do.

2 235 Q. Yes?

3 A. And then having decided that I got, I took, advice

4 as to how to make sure that I complied with it.

5 236 Q. Whose advice did you take?

6 A. I took the advice of Dan Delaney and

7 Padraig Bennett.

8 237 Q. When you say that you thought it was the thing to

9 do, the Act, I think, required persons who owed tax

10 to pay up the arrears?

11 A. Yes.

12 238 Q. You came to the conclusion that you owed tax?

13 A. Yes.

14 239 Q. However, did somebody not advise you that you did

15 owe tax or did you work it out yourself?

16 A. No, I knew that the money that was there had not be

17 declared to The Revenue.

18 240 Q. Yes. However, you must have come to the conclusion

19 that it should have been declared to The Revenue?

20 A. Yes.

21 241 Q. I am just wondering did anybody advise you of that

22 or did you come to it yourself?

23 A. No, I knew that. I knew that myself.

24 242 Q. You knew it yourself?

25 A. Yes.

26 243 Q. Mr. Delaney then arranged the payments and

27 negotiated on your behalf with The Revenue, is

28 that right?

29 A. Yes.

34



1 244 Q. Can you remember when that was, when you went to

2 Mr. Delaney first of all?

3 A. November or December of 1993.

4 245 Q. Not before that?

5 A. Not before that, no.

6 24 6 Q. Yes. You have explained that the documents which

7 you had were destroyed?

8 A. Yes.

9 247 Q. However, in relation to the Trust Deed, can you

10 remember whether or not you would have given that

11 to Mr. Delaney or perhaps to your legal advisor?

12 A. No.

13 248 Q. You did not?

14 A. No.

15 249 Q. You must have had the Trust Deed then, did you?

16 A. I certainly had a document if that was the Trust

17 Deed. I mean I certainly had a document at that

18 stage.

19 250 Q. You did not give that, a copy of that, to your legal

20 advisors?

21 A. No.

22 251 Q. Or to your accountants?

23 A. No.

24 252 Q. When did you destroy it, do you know?

25 A. Well, just about -- I just can't -- around that time

26 after the -- after we had completed the transaction

27 with The Revenue. Once we had made all of the

28 returns there was a sense of relief about it all and

29 it was just destroyed at that stage.

35



1 253 Q. Do you remember was the Letter Of Wishes destroyed?

2 A. Yes, as well.

3 254 Q. How is it that you have some documents? How is it

4 that you have been able to show us, give us, some

5 documents? Why were they not all destroyed?

6 A. Well, I think these were part of the parcel that

7 went with the -- in computing the tax for the

8 purpose of the amnesty.

9 255 Q. Yes. Could we just look at the documents (Exhibit

10 1) that you have forwarded to us? Do you see one

11 that is headed:

12 "Investment in Global Fund"?

13

14 A. Yes.

15 256 Q. There is Penta and then there is Tara. Do you know

16 what Global Fund was?

17 A. I don't.

18 257 Q. Who gave you that document do you remember?


20 258 Q. Was it Mr. Traynor?

21 A. I think -- I don't remember exactly. I don't

22 remember.

23 259 Q. You contacted Mr. Traynor, did you not?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 260 Q. What was his attitude to the fact that you were

26 going -- that you were accepting that you should

27 have been paying tax on these, on this interest?

28 Was he -- did he try to dissuade you from doing it?

29 A. No, he expressed surprise but not...(INTERJECTION).

36



1 261 Q. He did not say anything?

2 A. He didn't dissuade me.

3 2 62 Q. Do you see the next document:

4

"Exchange Position"

5

6 do you know where that came from?

7 A. No. No, I don't recall exactly.

8 263 Q. If you look at the next document?

9 A. Yes.

10 264 Q.

"On the basis of these figures, the

11 split is as follows..."?

12

13 A. Yes.

14 265 Q. It is signed by Mr. Furze?

15 A. Yes.

16 266 Q. That is dividing up the interest between the

17 two companies, is that not so?

18 A. Yes.

19 267 Q. Is this as a result of enquiries which you

20 personally made or which Mr. Delaney, your

21 accountant, had made?

22 A. No, I -- at this stage I think it is to do with --

23 it is the response to my request for information,

24 which is just two documents on, which starts with:

25 "The following is an outline of theinformation required."

26

27 268 Q. This is obviously a part of a letter?

28 A. Yes.

29 269 Q. Why have you left out the earlier part of the

37



1 letter?

2 A. On -- that is this letter here (INDICATING)?

3 270 Q. Yes?

4 A. No, that was the letter. My recollection and my

5 assumption at this stage, I think, is that this was

6 typed in my office in a way where the person typing

7

8

it wouldn't know what it was all about and that was

conveyed to Mr. Traynor to show the nature of the

9 information I required.

10 271 Q. However, this seems to me to be just part of a

11 letter:

12

13

"The following is an outline of theinformation required"?

14 A. Yes .

15 272 Q. I am just wondering, there is no, "Dear

16 Mr. Traynor." There is no...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. No, that would have been specifically excluded as a

18 matter of the person typing the letter not knowing

19 what was happening.

20 273 Q. Is there any reason why the letter which you sent to

21 Mr. Traynor should not be made available to us?

22 A. Pardon?

23 274 Q. Is there any reason why the letter which you -- the

24 full letter which you...(INTERJECTION)?

25 A. No, no. That is -- I think that is the full letter.

26 275 Q. The full letter?

27 A. I think that is the complete document.

28 276 Q. There would not have landed on Mr. Traynor's desk

29 a letter saying:



1 "The following is an outline of theinformation required"?

2

3 A. No, no, but I had discussed it in...(INTERJECTION).

4 277 Q. It must have been as a result of discussion?

5 A. It was, yes.

6 278 Q. Yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 279 Q. Then you said:

9 "NOTE: ITEMS NO. 1, 3, 4 and 5 AREREQUIRED TODAY"?

10

11 A. Yes.

12 280 Q. This was sent on to him as a result of your

13 telephone conversation presumably, was that it?

14 A. No, I met Mr. Traynor.

15 281 Q. Yes?

16 A. And said I decided to, with Mr. McKeon, avail of the

17 amnesty and then we said we would contact him with

18 whatever information we needed to get.

19 282 Q. Yes?

20 A. And this was the information that we needed to get.

21 283 Q. Yes?

22 A. And required to...(INTERJECTION).

23 284 Q. You went with your accountant, did you?

24 A. Pardon?

25 285 Q. You went with your accountant to Mr. Traynor or did

26 you go by yourself?

27 A. No, I went with Mr. -- pardon me, I went with

28 Mr. McKeon and Mr. Bennett.

29 286 Q. Mr?

39



1 A. Mr. Bennett was a tax advisor, one I decided to use

2 the amnesty I decided to use Mr. Padraig Bennett,

3 who is a tax consultant.

4 287 Q. Was he different from the firm you just mentioned?

5 A. Yes. He is not part of Buckley Delaney. He was a

6 tax consultant.

7 288 Q. Right?

8 A. With SKC.

9 289 Q. With who?

10 A. SKC. Kennedy -- KPMG, is it? Yes, KPMG I think,

11 yes.

12 290 Q. When did you consult Mr. Bennett then?

13 A. Again, November/December, about this particular

14 matter.

15 291 Q. Was Mr. Bennett an accountant?

16 A. A tax consultant.

17 292 Q. A consultant?

18 A. Yes.

19 293 Q. Did you say Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

20 A. Yes, or — KPMG I think. Whatever they call

21 themselves.

22 294 Q. Whatever firm it was?

23 A. Yes.

24 295 Q. Yes. If you could just go back to these documents

25 that we were looking at (Exhibit 1)?

26 A. Yes.

27 296 Q. The one headed:

28 "Penta Investments Limited."

29

40



1 Then:

2 "Assets as at 5th April 1991."

3

4 Then:

5

"Assets as at 5th April 1992."

6

7 Then:

8 "Assets as at 5th April 1993."

9

10 That is what Mr. Traynor would have given you, is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 297 Q. Yes. There is a letter of the 7th January 1994?

14 A. Yes.

15 298 Q. In which Mr. Redmond was asked for cheques payable

16 to The Revenue Commissioners?

17 A. Yes.

18 299 Q. Do you know who signed this letter, it was 42

19 Fitzwilliam Square?

20 A. Yes.

21 300 Q. Who signed this letter?

22 A. Sean McKeon.

23 301 Q. Sean McKeon. Was that on your behalf or on behalf

24 of himself?

25 A. Both.

26 302 Q. Both?

27 A. Yes.

28 303 Q. What was 42 Fitzwilliam Square? What were those

29 offices?

41



1 A. That was Des Traynor's office.

2 304 Q. Des Traynor's office?

3 A. Yes.

4 305 Q. It was Mr. McKeon, your partner, that signed this

5 letter having -- presumably it had been typed up in

6 his office?

7 A. In Mr. Traynor's office I assume.

8 306 Q. Mr. Traynor's office, yes?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 307 Q. Mr. Kennedy, I propose, if it is all right with you,

11 to have a short adjournment now for a cup of coffee

12 for about ten minutes?

13 A. Yes.

14 308 Q. If you would like to stay here and you can have a

15 cup of coffee if you would like one and we will be

16 back in about ten minutes?

17 A. Okay.

18


20

21 309 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions now

22 remaining. Mr. Kennedy,

23 could we go back to your letter, your statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 310 Q. Of the 15th March?

26 A. Yes.

27 311 Q. Do you see the last paragraph starting:

28 "The funds to be held on trust were Ibelieve assigned by me to a company

29 called Penta Investments Limited."

42



1

2 I think I asked you this before Mr. Kennedy, but

3 did you know whether the funds that you were giving

4 over were sent to Penta Investments direct or

5 whether they went to the Trustees?

6 A. No.

7 312 Q. You do not know?

8 A. I don't know.

9 313 Q. Could you just go down the paragraph a little bit

10 where you say:

11 "The actual transfer of funds wasmade in about September 1986. Some

12 of the money was transferred toMr. Padraig Collery."

13

14 That is the incident you described earlier?


16 314 Q. Where you had cash and you gave it to Mr. Collery?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 315 Q."At the Bank of Ireland, College Green,

19 Dublin and the remainder wastransferred to the trust direct from

20 accounts with Guinness & Mahon"?

21

22 A. Yes.

23 316 Q. Did you have accounts in Guinness & Mahon?

24 A. Yes.

25 317 Q. Existing accounts?

26 A. Yes.

27 318 Q. These were then transferred you assume?

28 A. Yes, yes.

29 319 Q. To the trust or to Penta Investments, you do not

43



1 know which?

2 A. I don't know. I assume Penta.

3 320 Q. Yes. After you paid the arrears of tax, and you

4 disclosed to The Revenue the interest on the

5 deposits which you should have disclosed and you

6 did not, you had not done, did you use the funds

7

8

which you had? Did you use "Ansbacher" in any way,

or Guinness & Mahon in any way, in relation to

9 the funds that you had then?

10 A. At the time of the amnesty?

11 321 Q. Yes?

12 A. No. I didn't recall until I went to look at the

13 papers recently that it was through the IIB, The

14 Intercontinental Bank, that the funds were drawn

15 down from.

16 322 Q. No. However, I am just...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. Sorry.

18 323 Q. Mr. Clarke is right. I am not concerned, we are not

19 concerned, with your private tax affairs?

20 A. No.

21 324 Q. However, it is only in respect of your dealings with

22 the company, with "Ansbacher"?

23 A. Yes .

24 325 Q. What I want to know is, after 1993 had you any

25 further dealings with "Ansbacher"?

26 A. None at all.

27 326Q.

None at all?

28 A. No.

29 327 Q. We would require, if it is possible to obtain it,



1 the Deed of Trust and the Letter Of Wishes. I

2 understand from what you have said in your

3 statement, and what you have told us, that

4 these were destroyed?

5 A. Yes.

6 328 Q. However, the original should be with "Ansbacher" in


8 A. Yes.

9 329 Q. I wonder could we ask you to write to "Ansbacher" to

10 produce these documents?

11 A. Could I just say that my solicitor did the

12 correspondence with those banks.

13 330 Q. Yes?

14 A. May I ask my solicitor to fill you in.

15 331 Q. Yes, of course, yes.

16 MR. CLARKE: We did, in fact — well,

17 Sir, I should say that we

18 had hoped that we would be able to obtain this

19 material from Guinness & Mahon, as I think we wrote

20 to the Inspectors initially, and had understood

21 that, in fact, they would have such information.

22 They recently told us that they were mistaken, that

23 they do not have such information.

24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.

25 MR. CLARKE: We have recently written,

26 by "recently" I mean about

27 a week ago, in the light of that information from

28 Guinness & Mahon, to "Ansbacher" to ask them

29 particularly for information about Penta. We have

45



1 not yet received any information back.


3 MR. CLARKE: I do not -- of course, we

4 can write specifically

5 asking for the Trust Deed.

6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I want you specifically to

7 write for the Trust Deed.

8 MR. CLARKE: Yes.

9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And the Letter Of

10 Wishes.

11 MR. CLARKE: And the Letter Of Wishes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then.

13 MR. CLARKE: Yes.

14

15 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN KENNEDY BY

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

17

18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. Very well.

19 Mr. Kennedy, thank you for

20 your attendance. We will ask you it to come in to

21 sign the transcript when it has been typed up?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.

2 4 MR. CLARKE: Thank you.

25 A. Thank you.

2 6 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much.


28

29

46



SovLcxVvar

Slooo



Appendix XV (61) ( l) (b )



73 Merrion VillageDublin 4

Office of the Inspectors appointed byOrder of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd3rd FloorTrident HouseBlackrockCo Dublin

15 March 2000

Private & Confidential

Dear Sir

I refer o your letter to me dated 20 January 2000 and to subsequent correspondence between youand my solicitors.

As my solicitors have informed you on my behalf, I did arrange for the establishment of a trustof a kind which I believe probably corresponded to the description at point (1) of appendix Cattached to your letter. As they have also explained, I now have practically no records relatingto the trust and although, as I explain below, I have sought material from wo banks who may

have such records, I have not yet received any. Without being able to refer o such material, I amnot able to recall specific details as to the arrangements put in place, but I understand that theInspectors would like to have a written statement at this stage of matters which I do remember.

To the best of my knowledge and recollection I established the trust in about September 1986following discussions with the late Mr Desmond Traynor when Mr Traynor told me that intereston funds in such a trust would not be liable to Irish tax. As far as I can recall my understandingwas that the trust was to be established in the Cayman Islands but that the money would be heldin Ireland with "matching funds" held off-shore. I was introduced o Mr Traynor by Guinness& Mahon and probably by Mr Maurice O'Kelly who had previously worked with that bank. Atthe time Guinness & Mahon held money on deposit for companies associated with me. Such

companies had also previously acquired two properties from he bank. Mr O'Kelly was thesenior person with whom I would normally have dealt.

The funds to be held on trust were I believe assigned by me to a company called PentaInvestments Limited, incorporated in the Cayman Islands. At about the same time I recallsigning a form of deed of trust and a letter of wishes addressed to the trustees. I assume that thecompany was established and those documents were prepared by Guinness & Mahon or MrTraynor, because I did not personally arrange these things or arrange for any other professionaladviser to cany them out. The actual transfer of funds was made in about September 1986; someof the money was transferred to Mr Padraig Colliery (who I understood to be acting for Guinness& Mahon and Mr Traynor) at the Bank of Ireland, College Green, Dublin and the remainder wastransferred to the trust direct from accounts with Guinness & Mahon. I do not believe that I eversubsequently transferred further funds to the company or the trust (or to any other company or



trust associated with Mr Traynor or with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited). Prior to repayment ofthese funds to me (in the circumstances described below), I do not believe that I ever receivedany money in respect of the funds from Guinness & Mahon, Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or MrTraynor.

From time to time I received statements of the amounts held in the trust; these were infrequent.The statements were arranged by or through Mr. Traynor. I was asked from ime to time in whatcurrency I wished to have the funds or parts of the funds denominated and I chose currenciesfrom time to time as I thought these most profitable (although I do not know whether any fundsof mine were ever actually converted). So far as I can recall the only persons to whom I wouldhave spoken about this were Mr O' Kelly, Mr Traynor or, possibly, Mr Traynor's secretary, Joan

Williams. These communications were all verbal.

In about 19901 discussed arrangements under which AIB, who wore bankers to various propertydevelopment companies in which I was involved, would advance money for the purchase anddevelopment of development land on the security of a guarantee to be given by Guinness &Mahon which might be partly secured by funds in Penta Investments Limited. The purchase anddevelopment of the lands proceeded but I do not recall whether these particular securityarrangements were proceeded with. As already mentioned I am awaiting information from AIBas to whether such arrangements were ever entered into.

In 19931 availed of the W aiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Act 1993 to declare to theIrish Revenue the amount of tax, calculated as provided for by that Act, which were owed inrespect of the funds in the trust. With the.assistance of my accountant Mr Dan Delaney ofBuckley Delaney & Co (who had not been involved in establishing the fund or the trust), Icalculated the amount of the fund and the interest which had been earned upon i t For thispurpose I wrote to Mr Traynor, who arranged for some details of the sums involved to beprovided. I do not recall any direct contact with Mr John Furze (whose name appears on one ofthe documents attached) in relation to this information or at any other time, although I believeI may have met him once with M r Traynor in Mr Traynor's office around the time ofestablishment of the trust in 1986. A substantial part of the funds were payable by way of taxeither by m e or by companies associated with me and I arranged with Mr Traynor for the re-payment of all of iie funds. I do not recall the details of these instructions, but I believe that thepayments were made by Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited, partly in the form of cheques made

payable to the Revenue Commissioners.

Shortly after having made the appropriate payments to the Revenue and having received theirreceipt (and I believe not later than the end of January 1994), I arranged for such limitedmaterials as I had at the time relating to the fund, the trust or Penta Investments Limited (otherthan papers produced in the calculation of the amount due to the Revenue Commissioners) to bedestroyed - my recollection is that other than the Amnesty working papers the only othermaterials which I would have had at the time were the trust deed, the letter of wishes andpossibly some copies of previous statements received from Mr Traynor. Having paid the taxesdue under and in accordance with the Amnesty and having re-established the balance elsewhere,there was no point in preserving any of the materials other than those which were relevant to thecalculation of tax payable under the Amnesty.



In the papers produced in the calculation of tax due there are working papers prepared by MrDelaney, a short financial statement of eight lines headed 'Investment in Global Fund' apparentlyshowing values as at 30 September 1993 of Penta' and 'Tara'. There are also similar statementsheaded 'exchange position' stating what were said to be 'overall realised gain(s)' as of 1September 1993; the final page from what appears to be a letter from Mr Furze dated 6 December

1993 which shows 'the split' of what appears to be earned interest for the year ending 30September 1991 and the two years ending 30 September 1'993 and a page setting out whatappeared to have been regarded as the assets of Penta Investments Limited as of 5 April in eachof 1991,1992 and 1993. There is also a copy of a list of questions which I sent to Mr Traynorat the time when the amounts due under the Amnesty were being calculated, seeking informationas to sums involved. I attach a copy of these papers (other than the working papers) on which Ihave covered up the amounts of money involved as invited by your letter of 20 January.

The 'Tara' referred to above is I believe a company established on the instructions of my formerpartner Se&n McKeon with whom I believe the Inspectors have been in communication and whoI believe established a fund of a similar kind to that established by me. I also have copy of aletter dated 7 January 1994 written by Mr McKeon to Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited fromwhich I have derived the information which I have given as to the final repayment of the fund.I am enclosing a copy of this letter also and have notified Mr. McKeon that I am so doing.

Having regard to what is said in your letter, my solicitors have on my instructions written to bothGuinness & Mahon and to AIB to ask them for copy of any material which they have relating tothe fund established by me or the prospective guarantee respectively. I attach copies of mysolicitors' letters. My solicitors advise me that they have been informed by Guinness & Mahonthat Guinness & Mahon have record of having papers in connection with Penta InvestmentsLimited, but these papers have not yet been produced to me.

Signed

atSOH\KOMCDY\STATO].WPD



Investment in Global Fund

P E N T A 3 o , . X £ >

37466 Per Balance Sheet

Less Discount

Net Cost

T A R A 3 0 . 7* T * *

46324 Per Balance Sheet

Less Discount

Net Cost



r

P E N T A

3 0 / 9 / 9 1

E x c h a n g e P o a i t i o n

9

30/9/93

L « a s :

L os s ' 90

A n l a f D«nfMKtt«i IfiOl CV/T 0 . ...

fU Oil / ^ f c s -

( s r



"On the basis of these figures, he split is as Mows: p & i ' t ^ et r

Year to 30-09-91

J* year to 03-04-91Vi year to 30-09-91

Two years to 30-09-93 & r- v •

V4 year to 05-04-92 — - WV4 year o 30-09-02 IV4 year to 05-04-93 ? * 7V4 year to 30-09-93



12/01/93 18:0* TT809 949 9267 C.I.B.T.C.

Q

PENTA INVESTMENTS LIMITED

AmfiamarnAiBttlttl

j

s n r u m t i a £ v/

DHtrrscHMAR&a d m k - ^

U.S. D OL LA RS U S D . , ^

yrwat.TNG

lAyys

US. .DOLLARS

STBRT..MI fc

flgflTSCKMAMtt DMK.'

U.S, D O L L A R S U S D 1

t

£D M K . /

USD ' /

jinSflAgriB 199ft i



Cayman International Bank and Trust Company Limited

flease reply to:42 Fitzwilliam Square,

Dublin 2.Tel: 6765144/676 3065Fax: 6612035

P.O. Box 837, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands. British West lndi«• Telephone (309)949-8655 Telex CP 4305

FaerimUe (809) 949-7946

ffonngty Ansbacher Tirnrt^)

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,Corporate Services,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Merrion Square,DUBLIN 2.

17th

J ' i ^ t

0 & V Z O

J

Dear Ronan,

Further to our letter of yesterday's date in connection with theUS Dollars and DeutscheMarks which you are holding on depositunder reference B/P and B/Q, could you please arrange value 29thJune to transfer principal and interest in each case to:

Bank of Ireland, International Dept., Head Office,Lower Baggot Street, Dublin 2,

for the following Accounts: ^trr YiV*^

DMs in Account Ref. B/P to DEM Account No.31525301 v » 1 ..

US$ in Account Ref. B/P to US$ Account No.31525300 ^ ^

DMs in Account Ref. B/Q to DEM Account No.31526301

US$ in Account Ref. B/Q to US$ Account No.31 526300

It would be appreciated if you could advise the exact amountsbeing transferred so that we can in turn advise Bank of Ireland.

Could you also please arrange value 29th June to transfer two

amounts of Sterling as follows, debiting both sums to our No.1Account No.02/01087/81 . These should also go to Bank of Ireland.

Stg.£500,000 to GB£ Account No.31525302 _ ft*8 CA

Stg.£375,000 to GB£ Account No.31526302 $ VC?

Please advise if you have any problj

Yours sincerely,

Fdfe CAYMAN INT ERNAT IONAL BANK AND TRUST CO . LTD .

Guernsey - Monaco - Zurich - Nassau - Cayman - BVI

s or if anything is not clear.

d / V



Appendix XV (61) (l){d)



S l A I & M f c J M ) CAYHAN HTERNATIOML BANK ITRUST COHPANY LldlTgJC/O CWPiifiATc SERVICESATTN Ht i it rtEU«0'»l»

HUSH INTERCONTINENTAL BAN91 Motion SquareDoblin 2.T«l«phone: (QU64I97JJ

A/CJ 02/01037/dlGbP

JE? <1 tic* NUN S£S

PAtiE NU: 000

T«l«»: 33322Facsmik: 101)6711074

ARCHIVE CCPY •• "txtowntdati.0oCCT9*

DATI OCTAUVAUM .OATI OCT CMOIT BAkAJtCI

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RE IT 1J1»10 4JTHDRAVAI. VAL.2»Cp9J j

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IliJ-L»3 t,JwO.OO13JOLV3 2,000.10lSJ-L'JZ <0,936.001VJULV3 4,424.4719JJLV3- 4,6o0.0uZOJuLvJ 14,330.992uJuLV3• 75,u0(i.U022JUL43 1,517.0723JUL93; 24,000.0.2iJjL93 I ,0b0 .0a25JuLv3 945.36Ju j u l vS 11.714.^4

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CAY.-A:. INTEHKATIONAI. SA.N*. »T.iOaT CuePAHY LlnlTt->C/V CuRiH-nATE StPVlLsa

td. N0.40837IVX



Appendix XV (62) Dr Colm K illeen

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to DrColm K illeen.

a) Transcript of evidence of Dr Colm Killeen dated 15 February 2000.

b) Cheque dated March 1991 - IIB payable to CMT Killeen.

c) Letter of 28 February 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

d) Letter of 10 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

e) Letter of 8 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

f) Letter of 11 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

g) Letter of 26 June 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon .

h) Letter of 12 Novem ber 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

i) Letter of 10 June 1991 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

j) Letter of 5 July 1993 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

k) Letter of 22 May 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Dr Colm K illeen.

a) Letter of 20 December 2001 - Eugene F Collins to the Inspectors.




S



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF DR. COLM KILLEEN

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 15TH FEBRUARY 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT


MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL


Interviewee:

Accompanied by:

DR. COLM KILLEEN

Mr. T. Leggett

Eugene F. Collins

Temple Chambers

3 Burlington Road

Dublin 4



I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGES

DR. T.C. KILLEEN MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 4 - 5

MS. MACKEY 5 - 2 9

MR. ROWAN 3 0 - 3 5

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 36 - 38



1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,

2 15TH FEBRUARY 2000

3

4 DR. COLM KILLEEN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED,

5 AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

6

7 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Dr. Killeen, we have

8 received this morning from

9 your solicitor, Mr. Leggett, a preliminary

10 statement, which we understand that you wish to make

11 to us?

12 A. Yes.

13 2 Q. We accept that. It is unnecessary for you to read

14 it, we will accept this as your preliminary

15 statement and we will put it into the record of this

16 interview?

17 A. Very well.

18 3 Q. If you would like to sign it.

19 A. Yes.

20 "Preliminary Statement by Dr. T.C.Killeen to the Joint Inspectors21 Investigating Ansbacher (Cayman)

Limited.22

I wish to state at the outset of this23 interview that my presence here is at

your direction, acting as you are under24 the powers conferred upon you by the

Companies Act 1990 and by the Court. I

25 have not come to this interviewvoluntarily and any statements or

26 confessions are made under thecompulsion of my involuntary attendance

27 here. Having said that, it is mydesire and indeed obligation to

28 co-operate fully with the investigationand I shall answer your questions as

29 completely and truthfully as I amable."

4



1

2 4 Q. Doctor, I am going to ask Ms. Mackey to ask you some

3 questions first?

4

c

A. Yes .

3

6 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. JUSTICE

7

o

COSTELLO

o

9 DR. KILLEEN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY

10

11 5 Q. MR. MACKEY: Doctor, I wonder if you

12 would tell us first a

13 little bit about yourself and your qualifications.

14 First of all, your full name is ...(INTERJECTION).

15 A. Thomas Columbia Killeen.

16 6 Q. You are a medical doctor?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 7 Q. Are you a general practitioner?

19 A. A family practitioner, yes.

20 8 Q. You are in practice at present?

21 A. I am in practice at present. I have been in

22 practice in Dubin since 1st March 1955. At the

23 moment I am practising in 14 Mountjoy Square. We

24 did have a surgery in 67A Mountjoy Square and we had

25 a disastrous fire about two years ago.

26 9 Q. Can you tell us when you first came in contact with

27 Ansbacher Cayman and how that came about?

28 A. That is a difficult one now. The first I knew of

29 the word "Ansbacher" was about two to three years



1 before Des Traynor died, and he wrote to me to say

2 that he was resigning from his chairmanship and that

3 Ansbacher would be taken over. To be truthful in

4 illo tempore, I thought Ansbacher was a man, because

5 I never heard the name mentioned before that.

6 10 Q. Perhaps I could ask you what your contact with

7 Mr. Traynor? You knew Mr. Traynor then for some

8 time prior to that?

9 A. Yes, I did. It is a slightly involved item. I

10 first met Mr. Traynor circa 1957, in Frank Glennon

11 Glennon's office on the Quays. Frank Glennon &

12 Company were my insurance people at that time. I

13 remember going into the Glennon office which was on

14 the Quays at that time. The man I dealt with was a

15 very one of nature's gentlemen, a man called Gerry

16 Glynn, who died -- oh, he died shortly after that.

17 But, he introduced me to Des Traynor because Des was

18 their accountant at that time. Des set up a

19 separate arrangement for us because even though we

20 were ...(INTERJECTION).

21 11 Q. Sorry, I don't want to cut across you, but I would

22 just like to take this in stages. He set up this

23 arrangement for ...(INTERJECTION).

24 A. He asked me to visit him in Haughey Boland's offices

25 in Amien Street.

26 12 Q. What caused him to ask you to visit him? Had you

27 spoken ...(INTERJECTION).

28 A. I had no accountant and Mr. Glennon suggested that I

29 should do this. When we were turned out of

6



1 University College in 1951, with a degree of

2 medicine under my arm, I knew all about medicine, I

3 knew nothing about anything else, and we had no

4 accountant that time and Mr. Glennon suggested I

5 should have one and he suggested Mr. Traynor.

6 13 Q. When you say "we"?

7 A. My wife and myself were in practice together.

8 14 Q. You were in practice together?

9 A. Yes .

10 15 Q. Your wife is Dr. Ita Killeen?

11 A. Ita Killeen, yes. I visited Mr. Traynor in his

12 office in Amien Street and he set up this simple

13 method of keeping books, which we still use to the

14 present day. There were three columns on the sheet,

15 fees earned, fees not banked and fees banked. A

16 simple arrangement. Then, maybe once or twice, I

17 would have seen him up to about 1962/63/64, around

18 that time. Then I lost contact with him, until we

19 moved house -- I used to live in St. Lawrence Road

20 in illo tempore then we moved house to a house in

21 Howth Road called 'Belvedere', which was next door

22 to Des Traynor.


24 A. 1977, May/June 1977. We bought the house in 1976,

25 but we weren't allowed to move into it. The

26 contract stated at that time it wouldn't be

27 completed for six months. Why, I don't know. But

28 we moved then in the middle of 1977. My wife used

29 to do a lot of domiciliary midwifery and one of



1 the things that she used to do, herself and a

2 midwife, ran a nursing home on the Howth Road. She

3 used to do a lot of charity work,

4 particularly for the famous Father Cleary, and he

5 used to have a whole lot of these poor unfortunate

6 girls that he used to collect and she used to

7 deliver them in St. Anthony's Nursing Home in Howth

8 Road. One of these girls wanted to keep the baby

9 and we were short a domestic at the time, so we

10 offered to take this girl and the child, which we

11 did. As time went on, Des Traynor had a young son

12 who was a similar age to this youngster that we were

13 looking after and they used to go in next door, and

14 one Sunday they were in next door and they were

15 blowing into Des Traynor's dogs' eyes and one of

16 them bit this youngster. This would be about 1982

17 or 1983. Mr. Traynor came in and was very upset

18 about this and we arranged for the child to be taken

19 to Temple Street and stitched. I had decided not to

20 deal with it myself, personally, because of the

21 ...(INTERJECTION).

22 17 Q. Sorry, not to cut across you, Dr. Killeen, but what

23 I am really trying to establish here is when you

24 first entered into some sort of commercial

25 relationship ...(INTERJECTION).

26 A. That is what I am coming to. Mr. Traynor used to

27 come in once or twice and he said, "Come in and we

28 will talk." So I went into his home a short time

29 after this incident and he brought me into the study

8



1 and we decided to start talking about money matters,

2 because I had originally known that he was the

3 Manager of Guinness & Mahon.

4 18 Q. Did you at that stage wish to make some sort of

5 financial arrangement about your own affairs?

6 A. It kind of developed into that, insofar as that I

7

8

knew he was involved as a Manager of Guinness &

Mahon and I also was informed, as well, at a dinner

9 one evening, on a totally different thing, that

10 merchant banks pay better interest than ordinary

11 banks.

12 19 Q. So you mentioned to him that you were interested in

13 some sort of?

14 A. Yes, we discussed who my bank was, which was the

15 Bank of Ireland on O'Connell Street. I have been

16 there since 1955, still am. He mentioned that

17 Guinness & Mahon, being a merchant bank, they have

18 higher interest. So I started to pass some money

19 over to Des Traynor.

20 20 Q. Let's get this clear now. Did he suggest you open

21 an account in Guinness & Mahon?

22 A. Yes .

23 21 Q. In the bank itself?

24 A. Yes .

25 22 Q. So you opened what, a deposit account in Guinness &

26 Mahon?

27 A. Yes .

28 23 Q. You went into Guinness & Mahon, did you, and sign




1 A. No, I never -- I may have stood in the bank once.

2 24 Q. How did you open this account?

3 A. He did it in his study next door. He was my next

4 door neighbour.

5 25 Q. Yes, I understand that.

6 A. We are "132", he was "134".

7 26 Q. I understand that. What happened in his study?

8 A. I used to give him -- it would be mostly cheques and

9 some cash.

10 27 Q. Just to get this clear. When you opened the account

11 for the first time, what happened, you handed him

12 money?

13 A. That's right.

14 28 Q. But you didn't sign any documents?

15 A. I honestly cannot remember. Maybe I did now, I do

16 not remember. All I will say is that working in

17 Mountjoy Square, it was a working class practice.

18 At that time we didn't deal with much cash. So,

19 everything that I gave Des Traynor, it was in the

20 thing "fees earned" and "not banked". What was not

21 banked, some of that was around the house and the

22 other was given to Des Traynor. In point of fact,

23 our accountants used to say to me, "You have

24 terrible drawings? You have drawn enormous amounts

25 of money? What are you doing with it?" I said, "I

26 am spending it." More than once they used to say

27 this to me, "You have drawn an enormous amount of

28 money ..." (INTERJECTION).

29 29 Q. Doctor, this is not really clear to me yet. You



1 opened an account with Des Traynor in his house?

2 A. That is right.

3 30 Q. Did he tell you this account was in Guinness & Mahon

4 Bank or it was somewhere else? What was your

5 understanding of where your money was?

6 A. Guinness & Mahon.

7 31 Q. Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?

8 A. Yes .

9 32 Q. Did you receive statements from Guinness & Mahon

10 after that?

11 A. I did, but there were always strips. There was

12 nothing written on the top of them and there were

13 just amounts.

14 33 Q. How did they arrive to you?

15 A. He used to drop them into the letter box.

16 34 Q. Did you ever ask him why the name of Guinness &

17 Mahon was not written on these?

18 A. No, I never did.

19 35 Q. Why was that?

20 A. Is was the fact he was my next door neighbour, my

21 friend. You don't sort of argue when you could see

22 some interest coming up.

23 36 Q. Yes. Did he explain to you that you would get a

24 higher rate of interest with Guinness & Mahon?

25 A. Than ordinary banks.

26 37 Q. Than ordinary banks?

27 A. Yes .

28 MR. LEGGETT: Sorry, Ms. Mackey, if I

29 could just mention one



1 thing, it may be of assistance. I have some

2 documentation here that has only recently become

3 available, included with which are the statements,

4 or at least some of the statements supplied by

5 Mr. Traynor to Dr. Killeen.

6 MR. MACKEY: Do you have copies of

7 those?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you could hand them in.

10 A. Yes, certainly. If I could just clarify. I have

11 three different types of documents here and I have

12 identified them. One are the copy statements that

13 Dr. Killeen has been able to unearth, as provided to

14 him by Des Traynor. You will see, as you go through

15 those, there is a reference to Guinness & Mahon at

16 the bottom. I am afraid that is misleading. It is

17 a superimposition of a compliment slip. It is not

18 actually a name appearing on the statement itself.

19 I have another set of statements which Dr. Killeen

20 was able to source through Padraig Collery who took

21 over the responsibility for his account, following

22 an interview we had with the legal team for the

23 Moriarty Tribunal, and I have handed those in.

24 Lastly, I have copies of expenditure documentation

25 which vouch the usage the usage of some of that

26 money, but I have to say it has not been cross

27 referenced, on aircraft which Dr. Killeen has

28 maintained over the years, planes.

29 38 Q. MS. MACKEY: Very good. Dr. Killeen,

12



1 you received these

2 statements from time to time from Mr. Traynor?

3 A. Yes .

4 39 Q. How often would you receive these?

5 A. Probably every three months. Maybe it might run six

6 months. But they were always slips, nothing on the

7 top of them.

8 40 Q. But they showed interest that was accrued?

9 A. That's right.

10 41 Q. From time to time then you passed a cheque or cash

11 to Mr. Traynor?


13 42 Q. He looked after it for you?


15 43 Q. And that would be reflected on these statements?

16 A. It would, yes.

17 44 Q. Now, at what stage did you become aware that money

18 was not in Guinness & Mahon but was somewhere else,

19 or did you become aware of that?

20 A. I remember there was an article in the paper one

21 time where the famous Gay Byrne had money with an

22 accountant and he did away with it and I began to

23 ask questions after that.

24 45 Q. Now we are going back now to the 1980's?

25 A. That probably would be sometime towards the end of

26 1988/89, around that time.

27 46Q.

You asked questions of whom?

28 A. I asked Mr. Traynor. I said, "Where is all this

29 money?"



1 47 Q. What did he say to you?

2 A. He said, "It is in the Cayman." Now, this bothered

3 me. We have a banker friend who lives in America

4 and I spoke to this gentlemen about the situation.

5 He said to me, "I will come back to you." He came

6 back to me after two months and he said, "You have

7

8

no money in the Cayman Islands." This bothered me.

Then I said to Des -- this would be probably about

9 another six or eight or ten months after that. I

10 said, "Des, where is all this damn money?" Because

11 I had occasion to get a cheque for some repairs to

12 my aircraft and it was a Sterling cheque. He said,

13 "Your money is in England."

14 48 Q. He told you your money was in England?

15 A. Yes. That is all I can tell you then, until I got a

16 letter to say that he was retiring as Chairman, or

17 looking after the money, and Ansbacher, which I now

18 know, was an account. That is the first I ever

19 heard of Ansbacher.

20 49 Q. That was in 19 ... ?

21 A. That would be about two to three years before he

22 died.

23 50 Q. So about 1991?

24 A. Yes, about that, 1991, 1992. He also informed me at

25 that time that he could take no more money from me.

26 51 Q. That he could take no more money?

27 A. No more money.

28 52 Q. What did you do upon receipt of that letter? What

29 steps did you take?



1 A. Nothing really. When I heard that the money was in

2 England, I wasn't too perturbed. Anyway, any time I

3 asked for a cheque to get the repairs done, if they

4 were large sums, I gave him two to three days notice

5 and a cheque would be organised for me, with the

6 Sterling.

7 53 Q. Who would you ask once he had retired?

8 A. I asked Des.

9 54 Q. He still gave you any money that you required out of

10 the fund?

11 A. Yes, at that time.

12 55 Q. When you say "at that time", after his retirement?

13 A. That would have been after I became aware, like when

14 he said Ansbacher, which I thought was a man,

15 actually. He told me that this Ansbacher thing was

16 being taken over and that was it, but I never dealt

17 with Ansbacher, whoever it was, I always spoke to

18 Des next door.

19 56 Q. How long after that did you continue to receive

20 payments out from Ansbacher? Did it go on up to the

21 time of Mr. Traynor's death?

22 A. Oh, it did and after as well.

23 57 Q. Up to the time of his death he continued to be able

24 to provide it?

25 A. Yes .

26 58 Q. Even though he had retired?

27 A. I used to get whatever cheque I needed.

28 59 Q. From him?

29 A. Yes .



1 60 Q. Did he make clear to you in his letter saying that

2 he was retiring that he would be able to continue to

3 draw money?

4 A. No, he made it clear that he was retiring from the

5 business he ran and I understood really that he had

6 packed in in Guinness & Mahon. That is what I

7

8

understood. But, up to the time of his death I used

to deal with him if I needed a cheque for --

9 practically all that money went on looking after our

10 aircraft.

11 61 Q. But you could not lodge anymore money?

12 A. No.

13 62 Q. After his death, what happened then?

14 A. Then I was introduced to Padraig Collery.

15 63 Q. Who introduced you to Mr. Collery?

16 A. Padraig Collery -- well, I know Padraig Collery

17 called to my home.


19 A. As far as I remember, and he said ...(INTERJECTION).

20 65 Q. Sorry, when did this happen?

21 A. This would be about two, three, four days after Des

22 died.

23 66 Q. He called to your house?

24 A. To your home, yes.

25 67 Q. Had you ever met him at that stage?

26 A. I am nearly sure. Did I meet him in Traynors? I

27 cannot remember now, but I know that this man

28 introduced himself. I also met another man called

29 John Furze in Traynors about two to three days after

16



1 Mr. Traynor's death.

2 68 Q. In Mr. Traynor's house?

3 A. In Mr. Traynor's house. I have an idea that maybe I

4 met Padraig Collery there, but it was intimated to

5 me that Padraig Collery was the man that would be

6 dealing with this after that.

7 69 Q. Then he called to your house?

8 A. I think he called to my house, as well, too. When

9 things began to go on and all this thing kind of

10 came to the fore, I spoke to Mr. Collery and said,

11 "Listen, I want to finalise all this sort of thing

12 and how much money do I have?"

13 70 Q. Before we get on to that point, can we go back to

14 just after Mr. Traynor's death?

15 A. Yes .

16 71 Q. Padraig Collery intimated to you, whether he came to

17 you or you met him in Mr. Traynor's house, he

18 intimated to you that he was now the person dealing

19 with it?


21 72 Q. Did you deal with him then for sometime afterwards?

22 A. Yes. There was another man involved, as well, too.

23 If I needed a cheque, I was asked to contact him for

24 it.

25 73 Q. Who was he?

26 A. A man called Corbett.

27 74Q.

Sam Field-Corbett ?

28 A. Sam Field-Corbett.

29 75 Q. Who told you to contact him?



1 A. I have an idea that either Mr. Corbett rang me or

2 else Padraig Collery told me. I am a bit hazy about

3 that, actually.

4 76 Q. Did you, in fact, deal with Mr. Corbett as well as

5 Mr. Collery?

6 A. I did, yes. If I needed a cheque, I either rang one

7 or the other of them. As far as I remember, it was

8 Mr. Field-Corbett that used to -- I only had

9 communications with him maybe twice, or three times

10 at the very, very most. He would arrange to have a

11 cheque delivered to me or I would pick up a cheque.

12 77 Q. Where would you pick up that cheque if you wanted

13 it?

14 A. I think it was in a block of -- it was like an

15 apartment block, a small apartment block in Wine

16 Tavern Street.

17 78 Q. Would it be Mr. Field-Corbett's office in Wine

18 Tavern Street?

19 A. Yes.

20 79 Q. When would you receive it, would it always be a

21 cheque or would you at times receive it in cash?

22 A. It was always a cheque, yes, never cash, no. It was

23 always a Sterling cheque.

24 80 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death were you able to lodge

25 anymore money?

26 A. No.

27 81 Q. All the lodgements stopped three years before his

28 death?

29 A. Yes. The lodgement of money stopped two to three

18



1 years before Mr. Traynor died.

2 82 Q. Can I ask you, in relation to the money that you

3 would lodge, was this declared income?

4 A. The money that was given to Mr. Traynor came out of

5 the practice and it was in the section "not lodged".

6 83 Q. Was it declared income?

7 A. Oh, yes, yes. As I told you, when Mr. Traynor

8 originally set up this there were three columns,

9 fees earned, not lodged and lodged, and all that

10 money was declared income.

11 84 Q. Very good.

12 A. As I mentioned to you, my accountants were always

13 saying, "What are you doing with the money you are

14 taking out?"

15 85 Q. In relation then to the interest that accrued on the

16 deposit, was that declared?

17 A. No, no. Originally, I always that in a merchant

18 bank, that Guinness & Mahon dealt with the interest

19 situation as regards tax. Unfortunately, I found

20 out when Mr. Traynor told me that the money was in

21 the Cayman. At that stage I came to know that this

22 really wasn't strictly legal, but I didn't tell my

23 accountants about it.

24 86 Q. You didn't tell your accountants?

25 A. No, I didn't know what to do with it, really, so I

2 6 decided to keep my month shut.

27 87 Q. Who were your accountants during all this time? It

28 was no longer Mr. Traynor?

29 A. No, it was Haughey Boland originally and then they

19



1 merged with Howard and something, and then there was

2 another merging and they are now Deloitte & Touche.

3 88 Q. At the time you had this arrangement with

4 Mr. Traynor who was your accountant?

5 A. Well, it was Deloitte & Touche, well, Howards, etc,

6 but I never mentioned -- the first time I ever

7

8

mentioned this was after I asked Mr. Collery to

finalise the arrangements and he gave me a cheque.

9 I lodged that in Killester branch of the Bank of

10 Ireland, and then I informed the accountants that I

11 had this and, of course, they nearly went through

12 me.

13 89 Q. When you entered into the original relationship with

14 Mr. Traynor, thinking, you have told us, that that

15 was a deposit in Guinness & Mahon ...(INTERJECTION).

16 A. Yes .

17 90 Q. ... did your accountants know about it then?

18 A. No.

19 91 Q. You didn't tell your accountants?

20 A. No. The money had been declared for tax purposes.

21 When I took the money out it was my business,

22 really, because my tax had been paid on it. As I

23 told, we were a working class practice, very little

24 cash in illo tempore, and then from 1972 onwards

25 everything was Eastern Health Board and it was all

26 cheques that came in. So it had to be declared, we

27 had to declare it.

28 92 Q. These would be then your fees that were being

29 lodged?



1 A. That's right.

2 93 Q. Would they be also fees of your wife?

3 A. Yes.

4 94 Q. Was there any other monies other than your fees that

5 went into this account?

6 A. Well, there were all classes of fees. We would do

7 an examination with the Gardai, they would send me a

8 cheque ...(INTERJECTION).

9 95 Q. They were all fees, but apart from the


11 A. We would have medico-legal fees.

12 96 Q. Apart from medical fees, were there any other funds

13 going into it.

14 A. No, no, all medical work medically. There would be

15 some cash in, as well. Fees were very small in

16 those days, like a pound or two or three.

17 97 Q. Some of your fees would be in cash?

18 A. Yes.

19 98 Q. Can I ask you whether you availed of the 1993 tax

20 amnesty?

21 A. No, I didn't.


23 A. I should have, but I didn't.

24 100 Q. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Traynor the setting up

25 of a Trust?

26 A. No, and it was never discussed with me either, or

27 suggested.

28 101 Q. You did not do such a thing?

29 A. No.

21



1 102 Q. Your account was a deposit ...(INTERJECTION).

2 A. Even though we lived next door, we did not meet that

3 often.

4 103 Q. Yes, I understand. Do you accept, Dr. Killeen, that

5 you had an Ansbacher deposit?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 104 Q. You don't?

8 A. Well, I do, and you are right. That is strictly

9 incorrect now. Originally, I always thought that

10 was Guinness & Mahon and the first I heard about the

11 word, the name "Ansbacher" was about two to three

12 years before Des died.

13 105 Q. Let me put it another way. Do you accept that you

14 had money in an off-shore account?

15 A. I do now, but I did not know then.

16 106 Q. But you knew three years before he died?

17 A. I knew three years before he died that there was

18 definitely ...(INTERJECTION).

19 107 Q. You knew your money was not, at that stage, in

20 Ireland?

21 A. No, I always -- as I told you, when I met this

22 American banker and he informed me that I had no

23 money in the Cayman -- how he knew that, I don't

24 know. I suppose in the banking business. But, he

25 informed me that I had no money in the Cayman

26 Islands.

27 108 Q. I think you told us that Mr. Traynor told you at

28 that stage ...(INTERJECTION).

29 A. That's right.

22



1 109 Q. ... that the money was in Cayman?

2 A. That's right. Then, after the article on Gay Byrne

3 and his accountant, I started to ask questions.

4 But, before I asked him I had spoken to this banker

5 friend in the US and he told me that we had no money

6 in the Cayman Islands. When I asked Des then he

7 said, "Your money is in England."

8 110 Q. Do you now accept that your money was, in fact, in

9 an off-shore account?

10 A. Oh, yes, I accept that now, but I didn't know that

11 at that time.

12 111 Q. That is the account that is now known as Ansbacher?

13 A. Yes, but then I also have to correlate what my

14 American friend said to me. He said, "You have no

15 money in the Cayman Islands." So, if I had no money

16 in the Cayman Islands, ipso facto, anybody else,

17 they didn't have it in the Cayman Islands either.

18 112 Q. Yes. But, anyway, you now accept that that is the

19 case?

20 A. Oh, yes.

21 113 Q. I would just like to put a couple of documents to

22 you, just for the record, Dr. Killeen, that you

23 might identify them or give your views upon them?


25 114 Q. The first one I would like to put to you is a cheque

26 drawn on Irish Intercontinental Bank, to the value

27 of £16,000, payable to C.M.T. Killeen. Is that you,

28 Dr. Killeen Exhibit 1?

29 A. No.

23



1 115 Q. That is not you?

2 A. That is my son.

3 116 Q. That is your son?

4 A. Yes .

5 117 Q. Well, just holding onto that for a moment, can I

6 pass you a letter dated 28th February 1991 (same

7 handed) Exhibit 11.

8 A. Thank you.

9 118 Q. From Joan Williams. Did you ever meet Ms. Williams,

10 who was Mr. Traynor's secretary, Dr. Killeen?

11 A. Yes .

12 119 Q. You did meet her

13 A. I did, yes.

14 120 Q. This, as you can see, is a letter from her addressed

15 to the Irish Intercontinental Bank?

16 A. Right.

17 121 Q. Asking the bank to arrange to let her have for

18 collection an Irish pound draft for £16,000, payable

19 to C.M.T. Killeen, and that the Sterling cost was to

20 be debited to the Ansbacher Limited call account

21 0201087/81. That was the Ansbacher account


23 A. Yes, the cheque was inadvertently made out to my

24 son.

25 122 Q. But it should have been for, was it?

26 A. Yes, and I know what that cheque was. That cheque

27 was for an engine -- well, not a replacement but an

28 overhaul that was on an aircraft that I bought at

29 that time. That cheque, that is incorrect, it



1 should not have been made out to C.M.T. Killeen, it

2 should have been made out to T.C. Killeen.

3 123 Q. So this is and withdrawal from your account?

4 A. That is right, yes, but I never saw this letter or I

5 never heard of Ansbacher Limited, I think, at that

6 time.

7 124 Q. But you recognise the withdrawal?

8 A. Oh, yes, but as I said to you, pay to the order of

9 C.M.T. Killeen, that is incorrect, that should have

10 been me.

11 125 Q. That should have been you?

12 A. Yes .

13 126 Q. Now, can I pass you another letter dated 10th June

14 1992 (same handed) Exhibit 3?

15 A. Thank you.

16 127 Q. Again, it is a letter from Joan Williams asking the

17 bank, the IIB, to have available for collection a

18 cheque payable to C. Killeen for £4,600?


20 128 Q. Do you recognise that as another withdrawal?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 129 Q. Very good.

23 A. But I do not recognise, I never knew anybody named

24 Ronan Redmond and I never heard of Irish

25 Intercontinental Bank.

26 130 Q. As we now know, the Ansbacher account was moved at a

27 certain point from Guinness & Mahon to IIB?

28 A. I never knew that, but I know that I got £4,600

29 Sterling.



1 131 Q. Very good. Finally, can I pass you two letters

2 dated 8th June, Exhibit 4, and 11th June 1992,

3 Exhibit 5, respectively?

4 A. Yes .

5 132 Q. If you would look first at that of 8th June, and

6 again you see it is a letter from Joan Williams to

7

8 A.

Ronan Redmond at the IIB, asking ...(INTERJECTION).

That is 1992.

9 133 Q. Yes, it is just a couple of days before the earlier

10 one, I should think. Asking to have £46 payable to

11 you, and the next letter cancels that. Now, I think

12 what possibly happened was that that £4 6 was

13 inadvertently mentioned instead of £4,600, which you

14 got in fact two days later. Do you recollect at any

15 stage asking for £46 ...(INTERJECTION)?

16 A. I have never seen these letters before.

17 134 Q. You have never seen those?

18 A. No. The date is June. It must have been £4,600.

19 135 Q. Yes, I think it was mistake?

20 A. Because that was again paid for maintenance.

21 136 Q. Finally, can I pass you ...(INTERJECTION).

22 A. Can I keep these?

23 137 Q. They will be part of the transcript which you will

24 get a copy of, if you so wish?

25 A. Do I need to give these back.

26 138 Q. Yes. Finally, can I pass you a copy of another

27 cheque? This is a cheque £28,750 payable -- it is

28 quite a bad copy, but I think if you carefully at it

29 you will see it is payable to Dr. Ita Killeen,



1 Exhibit 6?

2 A. What is the date on this, 1985 is it?

3 139 Q. It is 19th November 1986?

4 A. Yes .

5 140 Q. You recognise that cheque or does it jog anything in

6 your memory?

7 A. The date jogs my memory.

8 141 Q. Does the amount? It is quite a large cheque.

9 A. Yes it is, and I know what it is for, as well, too.

10 142 Q. What?

11 A. We bought an apartment in Portugal at that time, but

12 we did pass it through the -- I got approval from

13 two people, the Bank of Portugal to import money and

14 the Central Bank to export money.

15 143 Q. Did you give that cheque, or your wife give that

16 cheque to Mr. Traynor to lodge?

17 A. I think that would have been sent on probably to the

18 estate agency in Portugal, as far as I remember. I

19 never realised that her name was on the cheque, but

20 I know what that is for, that is what it is, we

21 bought an apartment at that time. But, as I said,

22 we did get approval from the Bank of Portugal to

23 import money and we did get approval from the

24 Central Bank.

25 144 Q. I understand that. We are not really concerned with

26 that aspect of it. What I am really trying to find

27 out here is whether this cheque was handed by you to

28 Mr. Traynor at any stage?

29 A. Handed to Mr. Traynor?



1 145 Q. Given to Mr. Traynor to lodge to your account?

2 A. I don't think I ever -- that would have been a

3 cheque that we had taken onwards, but I would not

4 have given it to Mr. Traynor. I don't think I ever

5 gave him that type of an amount ever.

6 MS. MACKEY: Very good. We might maybe

7 take a break here for

8 coffee and you and your solicitor are welcome to

9 have a cup of coffee. We will come back in about

10 ten minutes and continue on. Thank you very much.

11

12 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)

13

14 A. I can clarify this cheque for you now, Exhibit 7, I

15 know exactly what it is.

16 146 Q. Okay.

17 A. This cheque pertains to an apartment that was

18 purchased in Portugal. When we were there, there

19 was quite a high demand for this particular complex

20 and we had to produce the money rapidly and borrowed

21 the money from an Irish man who had a home down

22 there and he loaned me the money. That was pay-back

23 for him.

24 147 Q. It was pay-back for him?

25 A. Yes. This is in my wife's name, because she was the

26 one who was pushing for this apartment at that time.

27 I do not think she ever saw that cheque. I think it

28 was an inter-bank -- it definitely pertains to us.

29 148 Q. Okay. Thank you?

28



1 A. And it is definitely on apartment 304E Villa Magna,

2 Montechoro.

3 MS. MACKEY: Very good, that is fine.

4 Thank you very much.

5

6 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MS. MACKEY

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

29



1 DR. KILLEEN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN

2

3 14 9 Q. MR. ROWAN: Dr. Killeen, you

4 mentioned, in connection

5 with the purchase of the apartment, that you had

6 sought and obtained Central Bank clearance

7 ... (INTERJECTION) .

8 A. That is right.

9 150 Q. Presumably for paying out of the country. How did

10 you go about that?

11 A. You see, there were two apartments here. The

12 original one was only a studio apartment and it is

13 201A Villa Magna, Montechoro. In those days you

14 could not take money in or out without getting the

15 thing. I remember, I think, I personally wrote to

16 the Central Bank and I know I wrote to the Bank of

17 Portugal and they acknowledged, both were

18 acknowledged that it could be done.

19 151 Q. You wrote to the Central Bank and said, "I intend to

20 purchase a property and it is going to cost me so

21 much money and I am going to need to pay this money

22 in respect of the purchase."

23 A. Right, and I paid a cheque out of my personal

24 account for the first one. That would have been

25 around 1982, I think. I remember signing one of my

26 own cheques to the value, I think it was £19,000 at

27 that time.

28 152 Q. Yes, and the Central Bank ...(INTERJECTION).

29 A. Yes, and I had Bank of Portugal approval and I had

30



1 approval for the Central Bank. I filled out one of

2 my personal cheques at that time, because that was

3 before the Guinness & Mahon business.

4 153 Q. Central Bank wrote back to you and said, "Thank your

5 for your letter, we approve this transaction."

6 A. That is was approved, yes.

7 154 Q. Did you retain that letter, by any chance?

8 A. I don't think so, because, you see, when we moved

9 into this one, that was it. You see, when this came

10 about there was no problem about shifting money in

11 or out at that time. That was shortly after we

12 bought the first apartment in 204A Villa Magna,

13 Montechoro. The situation about taking money in or

14 out, you didn't have to ask for permission.

15 155 Q. Just returning then to the main issue, you obviously

16 got to know Desmond Traynor pretty well, you were

17 his next door neighbour?

18 A. Yes .

19 156 Q. When he and you agreed that you would open the first

20 deposit account with Guinness & Mahon it was done

21 informally in his study in his home?


23 157 Q. Subsequently, you would have dropped cash or cheques

24 into him to lodge to the account?


26 158 Q. You asked him from time to time to withdraw money

27 from the account?


29 159 Q. You got periodical statements which did not have any

31



1 name on top of them?

2 A. Completely blank, and they were all -- I understood

3 they were all done in his study.

4 160 Q. This was a pretty informal arrangement, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 161 Q. Is that what you expected of a merchant bank?

7

8

A. Looking back on it now, of course, no, but at that

time -- I mean, the man was my next door neighbour.

9 He was a, let's say, a financial wizard, well known

10 in business circles in Dublin. I would never dream

11 of questioning him about the situation. Every time

12 I got one of these slips it was always what I had

13 given him came up on it. There was no reason for me

14 to doubt the situation.

15 162 Q. He was an important man in the banking community?

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 163 Q. And was busy, I take it?

18 A. He was which?

19 164 Q. He was busy. He would have been pretty involved

20 with all the responsibilities he had?

21 A. Oh, yes, yes.

22 165 Q. Did you ever wonder why someone who was that

23 important and that busy could find the time to act

24 almost like a bank messenger?

25 A. Well, you see, we looked after him medically, I was

26 his family doctor, and he wasn't a man that was very

27 well and we looked after him fairly well. So, I had

28 no reason to doubt or worry about my end of the

29 money.

32



1 166 Q. It was really a question around the idea that

2 someone who had risen to quite a high level in the

3 respective organisations in which he was, how he

4 could possibly have devoted the time to accepting

5 lodgements and getting payments out? Was this not a

6 strange phenomomen?

7 A. No, it wasn't. It wasn't strange to me, because I

8 honestly thought that I was the only one that he was

9 doing this for and he was only doing it because I

10 was his next door neighbour. That is the reason I

11 had no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.

12 Absolutely none at all.

13 167 Q. The element of informality -- I was going to use the

14 word "secrecy", but let me use the word

15 "informality" about it.

16 A. Yes.

17 168 Q. That didn't strike a cord with you until the issue

18 came up of the possibility of maybe something being

19 not quite right with this, whenever the scandal came

20 up about the radio or television personality's

21 money?

22 A. Yes, but then as I harken back to what my I

23 originally said here, when we were turned out of

24 University College we knew everything about medicine

25 but we got no lecturing on how one should behave in

26 one's life as regards money, finance or anything.

27 It was dreadful. We were never given any --

28 everything was medicine. So, from my point of view,

29 I was very green as regards money, and Des was the

33



1 first man who really started to lay the foundations

2 for an accountancy situation for our practice.

3 169 Q. I was really divorcing a little the accountancy need

4 for the practice from the issue of having a bank

5 account. I mean, you had a bank account. You had

6 one with the Bank of Ireland ...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. I have been with the Bank of Ireland since 1955.

8 170 Q. When you got a Bank of Ireland statement it had

9 "Bank of Ireland" on the top of it?

10 A. That is right, that is correct. It never was an

11 issue with me. Because, as I said to you, Des

12 Traynor was such a high profile banker and he was my

13 next door neighbour and we looked after him. There

14 was no reason to think anything otherwise.

15 Absolutely none. When you come to think of it, boy,

16 was I naive, wasn't I. My goodness.

17 171 Q. In effect, what was happening was that you knew

18 Mr. Traynor and he knew you?

19 A. Yes.

20 172 Q. He was putting his confidence in you as a medical

21 practitioner?

22 A. That's right.

23 173 Q. And you were putting your confidence in him as a

24 banker?

25 A. Exactly.

26 174 Q. How do you feel now about having put that confidence

27 in him?

28 A. Well, put it this way, my confidence in him is

29 shattered now. Both my wife and myself have always

34



1 practised medicine to the proper ethics of the Irish

2 medical profession and never, ever, ever did

3 anything, ever, to people, you know, question that I

4 was ever did anything wrong medically. Whereas, my

5 confidence in Des now is shattered, really.

6 MR. ROWAN: Thank you. I do not have

7 anything further to ask.

8

9 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. ROWAN

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

35



1 DR. KILLEEN WAS FURTHER EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

3

4 175 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions,

5 Doctor. The document that

6 you gave us this morning would seem to start in

7 1983, and the documents here go on up to 1985 and

8 1986 and 1987?

9 A. Yes.

10 176 Q. Can you remember when you first started getting

11 statements from Mr. Traynor? Was it before 1983?

12 These are 1983.

13 A. Mr. Costello, I cannot really. It would be about

14 that time.

15 177 Q. Is that when it started, your arrangement with

16 Mr. Traynor started? Was it the early 80' s, was it

17 before 1980?

18 A. No, no, it couldn't have been, because, as I said,

19 we didn't move into 'Belvedere' -- that is next door

20 to him -- until 1977, and then it was a good few

21 years after that.

22 178 Q. Could we take it that it was sometime not very long

23 before 1983?


25 179 Q. These documents that you have handed in are the bank

26 documents that there was no name or title


28 A. There was never anything on the -- there were never

29 any captions, Mr. Costello, never.

36



1 180 Q. It shows, however, that there was interest credited

2 to this account?

3 A. Yes.

4 181 Q. You knew throughout all these years that interested

5 was credited to it?

6 A. Yes.

7 182 Q. It is this interest, you realise now, that tax

8 should have been paid?

9 A. That is right.

10 183 Q. Now, you told your accountants about this and they

11 apparently thought you had been very foolish, or

12 words to that effect -- and I don't want to go into

13 that -- but when was that?

14 A. After I got the cheque from Mr. Collery and I lodged

15 it in the bank in Killester about 18 months ago.

16 184 Q. You went to your accountants?

17 A. I did, and I told them about that.

18 185 Q. Who was the accountant?

19 A. David Richardson in Deloitte & Touche.

20 186 Q. Mr. Richardson?

21 A. Yes, and he insisted on informing the tax people

22 that this money was there now and tax had to be paid

23 for it, and from the moment that that money came

24 into my possession he insisted on paying tax.

25 187 Q. What about the arrears, tax on the arrears, are you

26 negotiating with the Revenue?

27 A. No, I haven't. That has to be dealt with. That is

28 the next debacle that I have got myself into.

29 188 Q. Are you going to do this?

37



1 A. Oh, yes, I will, yes. Yes, definitely, yes. I

2 definitely want to make my peace with the Revenue

3 Commissioners, yes.

4 189 Q. Very well, then, I think that is everything. Thank

5 you, Dr. Killeen. We will ask you to sign the

6 transcript of the evidence when it will be completed

7 in the next few days.

8 A. Right. Will that be sent out to me?

9 190 Q. If you wouldn't mind coming in here to sign it?

10 A. Right.

11 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. JUSTICE

12 COSTELLO

13


15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

38



^ ,3.00 o



•*as2aai«i" q a ^ a a a u : zuoTiosa* a z



Anabachcr LimitedA Mt m b t r o f t h e H tn r y A n sb a eh t r H o ld i n g s PL C M er c h a

Please reply to:

42 F itzwilliam Square,Dub lin 2.Tel; 765144/763065Fax: 612035

Garrett Logan, Esq., ,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Merrion Square,DUBLIN 2.

P.O. Box 817, Grind Cayman, Britah West IndiaPhone (809) 949-4431/4

Telex: CP 4305fiuc (809) 949-7944(809) 949-3267

V e & y

Dear Garrett,

Could you please arrange to let me have £ o r ejection tomorrowmorning, Friday 1st March, an Irish Pounds Draft for IH£16,000payable to C.M.T. Killeen and debit the sterling cost to"nsbacher Limited Call Account N o.0 2^0 1'8 1. .

Yours sincerely.

«

^ x s u ^ k i J U L

For ANSBACHER LIMITED

J D T / A J W

<V3



r - £ - Please reply o:42 Ftewffliam Square,D u b l i n !

Tel: 765144/763065Fax: 612035

Ansbacher Limited

P.O. Box 887, Grind Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West Indies

Telephone: (809) 949-8635 Telex: CP 4305

Facsimile (809) 949-7944 (809) 949-5267

VIA FAX 10th June, 1992.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,Corporate Services,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited91 Kerrion Square,

DUBLIN 2.

y^cn Sq..

Dear Ronan,

Could you please arrange to let, me have for collection as souxias possible a Sterling cheque fu*. Lh. Sterling equivalent ofIRE4,600 payable to C. K l l l e a m a n d debit the cost to AnsbacherLimited Account

Yours sincerely,

For ANSBACHER LIMITED

/AJW

* w n o n or thx anss ju 3» i w ^ f l ^ t * ^ w rra o r ro x a1 Z 3



Please reply o: Ansbacher Limited42 FfoEwffliam Square, P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Ctyman Islands, British West indies

P u b l i n 1 Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305

I d : ^ A 4 ^ 7 6 3 0 6 5 Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267

Far 612035

8th Jtane, 199.2.Ronan Redmond, Esq.,Corporate Services,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Merrion Square,DUBLIN 2.

Dear Ronan,

Could you please arrange to let me have tor collection onWednesday morning 10th June a Sterling cheque for the Sterlingequivalent of IRS46.00 payable to C. -iMILJnd debit the cos*to Ansbacher Limited Account No,

Yours sincerely,

JoftN. r y.i. o •j f ' ^ p

for ANSBACHER L I M H ^ t ^

P.S. I would appreciate it if you could advise theIrish Pound/Sterling Exchange Rate used for abovewhich I would like to have at same time as cheque.

^Js^T/AJWA t a r a x or t h s a n w

wA kOMBxx o* THX AHsxAcm j k s ^ wrra o m e n . „ , ,



Pleasereply o:42 Fitzwflliam Square,Dublin 1

Tel: 765144/763065Far 612035

Ansbacher Limited

P.O. Box 817, Guild Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West ladies

. Telephone: (109) 949-8635 Telex: CP 4305-Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267

; ^ JUM992

11th June, 1992.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,Corporate Services,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Herrion Square,DUBLIN 2.

Dear Ronan,

I return herewith Sterling cheque for Stg.£42.36 payable toC. Killeen which you issued on 10ifh . Unfortunately thisis not now required and I should be grateful therefore if you

would cancel it and reimburse Ansbacher Limited Account

Apologies for the confusion.

Yours sincerely,

. O b e x - L i n e .

Fdr ANSBACHER LIMITED

/AJW

A mbobx orTO* a m a a

a u o l o c a t j d w t u b l ax mc mt • n t m v n k j w d l an ds .^ «unNsir.uoiuooAKDSwrRsaxjuo



Appendix XV (62) ( l) (g )



763065ftcalmiUa: 612035 ^ • 42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE

DUBLIN 2.

26th June, 1990.N. David Bomphries, Esq.,Senior Manager - Operations,Guinness A Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

i.

^t"'Dear David,- *

AT"!^Could you please arrange to debit the Account of/"^Dr. T.C. Killeen Ho.11981001 with IR£2,400.00 and credit

that amount to Kent ford Securities Limited No. 2 AccountNo.12460002.

oI would also like to have an up to date Statement ofDr. Killeen's Account.

Tours sincerely.

J.D. Traynor.

JDT/AJW



Tal: 768144/783008Fax: 612035

42 RTZWILL1AM SQUARE,DUBLIN 2.

12th November, 1990M. David Humphries, Esq.,Senior Manager - Operations,Guinness £ Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DPBLIN 2.

Dear David,

Could you please arrange to have IRE5,400 transferred fromthe Account of Dr. Colm Killeen No.11981001 to KentfordSecurities Limited Account No.^**™*-*

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Travnor.

JDT/AJW

//



t



. . .. . . r v : .,

FILE UNDER;

42 FittwOHam Square,Dublin 2.TU: 765144/763065Fax: 612035

"Ansbacher limited

fbMK QM) MMfSI/4TUhc (74309

Hue 009)M M M(80S) 94»-S2S7

M. David Humphries, Esq.,

Senior Manager - Operations,Guinness & Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

10th June, 1991.

)

Dear David,

Could you please arrange to let me L.-.. - r collection onWednesday morning IRE1,000.00 in ouh Cram the Account of

.•^Dr. Killeen, Account No. 11981001

Yours sincerely, fi /vXLfeat ,

J.D. Travnor.

JDT/AJW



Appendix XV (62) (1)0)



42RTZWUXIAKISQUARETel: 878 5144/878 3065 DUBLIN 2Fax: 661 2036

5th July, 1993.

H. David Humphries, Esq.,Senior Manager - Operations,Guinness & Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

Dear David,

Could you please arrange to let me have for collectionan Irish Pounds draft for IRei,000.00 payable to Bank ofIreland and debit the Account of Dr^olm and Dr. ItaKilleen No.13180001.

Yours sincerely.

JDT/AJW



Appendix XV (62) ( l) (k )



42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE

DUBLIN 2.

M. David Humphries, Esq.,Senior Manager - Operations,Guinness * Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DUBLIN 2.

* 22nd May, 1990.

Dear David,

Could you please' arrange to have the Account of Dr . ColmKilleen, Mo.11981001 debited: with IRE5,000 and to havethat amount credited to Kentford Securities Limited No.2

Account No.12460002. \• Yours sincerely,

\

J.D. Travnor.

JDT/AJW



Strictly Private & ConfidentialThe Inspectors

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited3 r d FloorTrident HouseBlackrockCo. Dublin

ourref TL/PH/IC22074.001 yourref 20 th December2001

Re: Ou r client: Dr. Colm Killeen

Preliminary Findings

Dear Sirs and Madam,

As you know this firm represents Dr. Colm Killeen and the writer attended with him during the course ofhis interview with the Inspectors on 15 th February 2000.

We have been passed by Dr. Killeen the copy of your letter to him of 3 r d December 2001. We note fromthis that your preliminary conclusions are that Dr. Killeen was a client of Ansbacher and that thisconclusion is based on the evidence given by him to the inspectors and the further documentationenclosed with your letter.

Whilst Dr. Killeen has accepted, with the benefit of having the relevant evidence put to himretrospectively, that he had an account with Ansbacher, we believe that it would be entirely disingenuousfor your report not to record his ignorance of this fact at the time during which the account was operatedwithout his knowledge or consent. In this regard we would refer you, in particular, to pages 5 and 6 ofthe transcript of his evidence in which he states "to be truthful I thought Ansbacher was a man,because I never heard the name mentioned before that". We w ould also refer you to the followingsections of the transcript:-

Page 9 - l ines 20 -2 4Page 14 - lines 14 to 19Page 15 - lines 1 3 -1 8 " but I never dealt with Ansbacher, whoever it

was, I always spoke to Des next door. "Page 20- l in es 13 - 1 6Page 22 - lines 4 - 26 .

It is quite evident from the extracts to which we have made reference that Dr. Killeen was a perfectlyinnocent party in relation to any dealings with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or its associated orsubsidiary banks. He invested m oney through M r. Traynor in Guinness & Mahon B ank on the basis thatit provided a better interest rate and on the (then mistaken) belief that the appropriate income tax wouldbe deducted at source. The monies passed to Mr. Traynor for investment were all declared income andhe made a payment to the Revenue Commissioners at the earliest possible opportunity in settlement ofunpaid taxes arising on the interest earned.

f 1 R

l;-Tnpfi-> Chambers

3 Ruriirqton Road

Dublin 4

Tel: +353 1 202 6400

Fax: +353 1 667 5200

DX 25

Email: lawyer@efcie

Websi te: www.efc.ie

Partners ' "!-••:;.• i i.r-;F-n-- F-ineno M:ip:••• ;\ii. \\ O u n o i ! : David c'isor Teny Leiyjett Gerard Coll Bai ry O'Noil Leonora Malone David Cantrell

D'. ' ..i i1 '-.:-.. !.v;\r w Associates '::nGi'. Urfor'V.:.!-. M.-ir; E. Barrett John Cosiello I Uv. C,'Sui!iv,in Lili.ni Halpin Ronan O'

:•'.;'.!• M.ii'.i/- i 1 1'' 1 iP'.'itv L'oou \,:.ith Deboiah \olly VVilliarn Ay'mer NnHn MtGiaih David Hackeit

Consultants M.iig,ut>t Furke-Stounton Fut li Finlay

http://www.efc.ie/

http://www.efc.ie/



We believe these factors should be properly recorded in your report. Failure to do so would be to makea finding hat does not reflect Dr. Killeen's right to fair and proper procedure and would impinge on hisrights to natural justice. He will take all appropriate steps to protect his position.

Yours faithfully,

Eugene F. Collins

f:\uscrs\phfickettVdec01\kHleeti2ninsp doc



Appendix XV (63) Mr Richard Law es & Picton InvestmentsLimited

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrRichard Law es and Picton Investments L imited.

a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Padraig Collery dated 11 January2000.

b) Letter of 9 November 1976 - GMCT to SKC Services.

c) Letter of 11 January 1982 - Guinness and M ahon to Central Bank ofIreland.

d) Letter of 4 January 1983 - Stokes Kennedy Crowley & Co to Guinness

and Mahon.

e) Letter of 7 April 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Picton Investments Ltd.

f) Guinness and Mahon statement of a/c at October 1977 re Picton

Investments Ltd.

g) Deposit dealing slip - GMCT re Picton.



Appendix XV (63) ( l) (a )



A

1 A. I didn't recall it but there is documentation that

2 when X was going through with Mr. Ryan that it

3 showed that had some transactions which

4 went through the accounts of'Hamilton Ross.

5 295 Q. What these are names of other persons who had an

6 interest in this deposit whom you don't remember but

7 whom you are satisfied were involved?

8 A. Prom on the evidence that is coming to us, yeB, they

9 have had relationships there.

10 296 Q. And then names mentioned by Mr. Ryan as having

11 association, Picton investments Ltd, is that another

12 name you do not remember?

13 A. No, Picton Investments Ltd , to the best of my

14 knowledge, whilst it was a Cayman company had an

15 account directly with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin, in

16 its own right. It didn11 have any relationship with

17 Ansbacher or Hamilton Ross or College Trustees. It

18 was a company that had a direct relationship with

19 Guinness & Mahon Dublin.

20 297 Q. Do you know who was the person, the beneficiary whom

2 1 controlled it?22 A. I think it had associations with Mr. Lawes and

23 Mr. Lawes had something to do with Connaught Foods

24 Ltd.

25 2 "8 Q. MS. MACXZYt Mr. Richard Lawes was it?

26 A. I don't know the first name. I believe he was a

27 scientist or a chemist. I know he was from the UK.

28 i met him on one occasion but nothing more than that

29 do I know about him.



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITEDA Member ol the Gulnneaa Mahon Merchant Banking Group

NO 9-4653MCP 305

,U."iii GufnneM

Rtt Bex 887

Grand Cayman

British Weat Indie*

E . K e e g a n , E s q . ,S.K.C. S e r v i c e s ,H&r.court House,H a r c o u r t S t r e e t ,DUBLIN 2 .

9th November, 1976.

Dear Mr. K eeg an,

V e h a v e t o d a y r e c e i v e d fro m G u i n n e s s + U a ho nL i m it ed o n b e h a l f o f p i c t o n I n v e s t m e n t s L i m i t e d £ 5 0 0 , 0 0 0b e in g d i v i d e n d fro m C o n n au g h t F o o d s L i m i t e d .

V e h a v e a r r a n g e d w i t h G u i n n e s s + M ahon L i m i t e d t op l a c e t h e s e f u n d s f o r o n e m o n th t o 9 t h D e ce m b er a t 15% .The f u nd s a r e E u r o s t e r l i n g a n d t h e r a t e I s b a s e da c c o r d i n g l y .

Your sFor GO

i t h f u l l y ,ON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.

i

i



O u r Re f; M C K /B K tlth January, 1982.

E xc h an g e Co n t ro l D epa r tmen t ,Cen tra l 3ank o f I r e l and,Dame Street,2 U S L I N , 2 .

Dear Sirs,

! ' '' ); . Con nac ht Fo ods L imited

Per miss ion I s sou ght for the payment by the above Com pany or" a d iv ide ndof £500,000 to I ts par en t com pan y, P lcton Inves tme nts, P .O . t iox 837,G r a n d C a y m a n .

* . ' V:

Au enclose the usual letter f rom the Company 's au d i t o r s .

Your* fa i tn f i . l l y .



Appendix XV (63) ( l) (d )



V Stokes Kennedy Crowley & Co.W « Chartered Accountants

Harcourt H ouse.Harcourt Street.

Dublin 2, Ireland.Telephone (01) 757971Telex 24494

Our Rcf. EK/MH

Your Ref.

4 Ja nu a ry , 1983

Guinnes s & Mahon L td . ,

17 Co l l ege Gre en ,Dub l in 2 .

w. A t t e n t i o n : M r . M a r t i n K e a n e

D e a r S i r s ,

Connacht Foods Limi ted

We a re au d i to r s o f t he above company .

We und e r s t an d t h a t t he company p rop oses t o pay a d iv id end to i t s sh a r eh o l de r so f £ 5 0 0 ,0 0 0 .

We conf i rm th a t i n ou r op in i on th e company has adequ a t e Re ta in ed Ea rn ings andResources t o a l l ow paymen t o f a d iv i den d in t he amoun t s t a t e d abov e .

Y o u r s f a i t h f u l l y ,

-/L^ Q u , 1>STOKES KENNEDY CROWLEY & CO .

Ale* Uurraluhn CallaghaftK>m CarrollDt-clan CiiHin%Niwl Ci»>kcCiMKir Oiwley1-auicmx Ciimley

WiHuni KrfcyEdgar ForsierNorman JudgeKdward KeeganAmhony LynchDnmml MillerJohn Naah

Brian O'ConnorFergus OTierneyDun KeidAles SpainMichael Spellmail(iarrclt Walkw

(.'omultanteNorman liakRonald il.ilpcr("hriitophcr I'ulUnMark IfcihhyiiJim DourlyK k M (<«••• ne

Hon HarmNoel HollandRay JacksonJerome KanncdvMichael MacNamaraGerard McEvoyPaul MeCuwan

Niall O'CarrollMichael Varianlien WilsonRobert imdv

AssociateNiall Crowley

OHieev HclfaM, Cork. Galway. imerick and New York



Appendix XV (63) (l )( e)



n

GUINNESS+MAHONITD17 Cortege Box SSATfetephone:782444

^Lcton InvestmeQta^S) 7th April, 1977.c7oTj".A.Fur2e, Esq.TGulnness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.P.O.Box. 887,Grand Cayman.BRITISH WEST INDIES.

Dear Sirs,

We confirm having accepted the following funds from you:

Vahm 7th April, 1977.

Amount £524,670.15 (Stg.).

Plana Rsy Existing deposit plus ia

for ccount Yourselves.

Tarm . Fixed to 6th May, 1977

Rats % par nnum 9.

O . '/"~

v4 ^

r n no

M , T h r o u< i

h Direcft.

YoumWthfuHy,

for QUMMB dS+ MAH ONU P

• • # rrr» «tt

AnwmbwoiawQuinnMfPMtaniup

JUta d iJ tI.CtfylmLqr*Jnr,



r

. .ACCOUNT- • ^ ACCOUF

INVESTMENTS

'zfcste J W i u .

00 J

• ' PARTICULARS BALANCe

K I Q M T TP AT 1 &

TO 10/1/77

505,164.33

50CVOOO.OO

:. 164.38

do

SOC QOOJOO

50^00400

S00lQ0(j.p0«

, 1

•w.*'- v

f.M1

y.v •

p | :Vo/, /'77 icr

Jtt/2/77 AT. 15KX .

526, 476.83 ;

526,4.76.63 s

• 52^476^2-

5£6,47<S^2. 526,47 >j33

526^47.4^3

20iSlfi,45

524476j|3 . S2M76iBf

)&M7«.8S:

llfk'Mt

S..1-:

... ' .jtSn#nt»rMrk • i • >> fry ; -li/i,,- lj—>47* . * > • • • -

Jmfe-.Plctori In-Vedtfaianta Ltd,,P v O ; 8 B 7 y Srand Cabman;

v-'- • Brltiih' W0st -iMieg

G u in n e s s & M a h o n L td17 CO LL EG E (SREEN DUBLIN2

T ELgl^ONE 7824MTELfe^ ''5205

iwSR:*;'? ••• T • • • • • • .•: & . .' . 1 . . .



f**^

Appendix XV (63) (1) (g)



Appendix XV (64) Mr Frank Lee

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrFrank Lee.

a) GMCT memo of 16 December 1976 to Mr TR L eonard.

b) Letter of 9 December 1976 - GMCT to Mr Frank Lee.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Frank Lee.

a) Letter of 3 December 2000 - Mr Frank Lee to the Inspectors.



U 1 1

VK

5205 MARS El

305GUINNESS CP

16 DECEMBER .1976

ATTENTION HR. T. R . LEONARD

P ^ R E T DELAY I N REPL YIN G CONCERNING DEPOSITS I N NAME OF .. X x x . AND FRANK LEE. I N CA SE OF X X X X X X * WOULD YOU

~ASE PAY HI M POUNDS t O . U I 8 . t a OESI TING THI S AMOUNT TO THES„.<IDRY SUB-COMPANY ACCOUN T. I N YOUR LETTER TO Hf M WOULD YOU

.EASE BE GOOD ENOUGH TO ADVI SE THA T TH I S REPRESENTS THE P R I N -CIP AL ON HI S D EPOSI TS ACCOUNT OF DOLLARS 1 7 .0 1 8 .8 1 TOGETHERt f lTH I NTEREST OF DOLLARS 3 7 9 . 4 2 . TOTAL DOLLAR AMOUNT I S1 7 .3 9 8 .2 3 WHICH HAS BEEN CONVERTED TO POUNDS'AT 1 .6 7 PRODUCING>OUNDS t Q . M 8 .1 0 .

N THE CASS OF FRANK LEE HI S DEPOSI T BALANCE I S DOLLARS 5 .4 5 4 . 0 0LUS IN TEREST OF DOLLARS 1 3. 3 3 M AKING A TOTAL OF DOLLARS 54 6 7 .3 3 .H I S HAS BEEN CONVERTED ALSO AT 1 .6 7 PRODUCING POUNDS 3 2 7 3 .8 5 - —-HI CH AMOUNT SHOULD ALSO BE DEB I TED TO THE"SUNDAY SUB-COMPANY „CCOUNT AND P AI D TO HI M . I AM NOT CERTAIN WHETHER I N HI S REQUEST * *0 WITHDRAW THE BALANCE FRANK WISHED TO I NCLUDE THE L ATESTRED IT OF DOLLARS 5 ,0 6 0 AND SUGGEST YOU CONTACT HI M TO B OTAIN-ARJFI CATIQN ON THI S POI NT.

of

rt'.n

J BOTH INSTAN CES IS SHOULD BE GRATEFUL IF YOU WOULD AD VIS E THEE F IC IA R IE S OF THE DOLLAR ' AMOUNTS AND CONVERS ION TO POUNDS AND

• fA1N TH EIR S IGNA TU RES TO A COPY OF YOUR LETTEfT THEREBY ACKNOW-GING R E CE IP T . THE SE COPY' LETTERS SHOULD BE FORWARDED TO US IN

E COURSE. '

J



/""S



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITEDA Mwnbar ol tha Quinmn M aho* MwoHwt Banking Oroup

TalaphooaNo s—k2s3/ 4

Tatac <7306

P.0.BMU7

OamdCammn

yourref

)

MF/ii

9th ViceubtA, 1976Ht. fturnfc Lee

MwfiinftiCOAtIK E LA W

Vua fjumk,

KEDHALL INVESTMENTS MUTEDKEPHALL TW8T

.Ttotfc yo u {OA gout I ttttA « ( t9 th HovtwBtt eonflmOig a g u m m t toth t IfguuA puvMtd in the atamutU ot; xwhich accomfitnUd my l it tu to you o{ 75th OctobtK.

I mom heart pUatu/u <Ln incloUng tut vapdattd 8o6mee Shut pttpeuudai at 30th NovcabcA and txpuutd t it Focwd Stirling. Hum thUttUl l e t that thou, heu 4* pi a Alight ttdutUon In th t loanUguxt by ulxtui of tht loot that m have unUtan oft tht .. .AhaxtA at co*t. Van taLU Atcoll that theit *hcwu wvu Mid andtht halt ptoauxU vudJUtd dJJuatty to tht account ol X x xXX> <•* Mftifct** H rffnurf Bank.

4 t u i oh th e ftoftt end Lo44 Account U tht b ituut taxntd ox Mexxx dtpoilt account ptUoK to th e comwuton O{ tht tolaice o{ theaccount Unto US dotla/ii.

In 4o fax oa tht anet* ate eoncuntd, having diipo*td ol tht

Aha*** tk t only JbuutMKt ttmbUng JU 750 thou* o{ 41 eaah Inv - x x x x : and mt toan «uetft have been Inc/ujutdbu vlttut o{ th t US$100,000 ubxuuMd to XXX finally, In eonmctlonmtk tht Steeling account* you ttUl notiee an Xncfceate In tht..batonat by uUttut o{ th t -intviUt allowed pilot to eonvuilon.

.../e



A ;

I Vu PwiOt Lt t9th VtaoAvt, 1976

Vagt t

On the t u m f ti o n. t h at you m i l l b t l n t poUtto* to O0*ee the ttefci&igHe are om cmetuttd a l l

ftagffneei to U.S. doUo/U «t at exc/Uutfe A«te o* T.iS. Al io wHeudaxt account* *J a t 3«& Move et expteuei in G~S. do l lou , ondrjttopMe that tftete foot the 6o*& of aftiee ooouAt ing. PvtMapi yo umould be kind uuugk to M ae ata* JutRu you agJitt t k u t (fyufuuand aJUo odulie. mt H you have any qutxJju.

'• '-J-

Tukning now to the account* oi X x x , * oaeXlyth t• M M * tnc loUng MAoanti MU eh Z th &U *>a {Ant A* i txo lanatoHyboth In Pound StuUng and In U.S. toUtou. Awe peUwp* j/oaw w U be Unrf enough to ton^Um you* , a g wm n t t o t h t dollo*. M t u u40 that we can eiutffce yen* Aecoftcb tatth ouu.

Final ly, I «oa&* aawMoH that theee U a tmt l ovvuUat t on the ban*account of x x * ^ am* a4 thete be cxpuuu owe* t h t nexttwo month* in the f rm of Qowumtnt ftei, etc. Sot ^ xX X 1 p* opo4t InUkacting At LtomMd t o elate the' * x eiU

depot l t account umt t t l ng tho«e fowl* to at fo£ eeectit to the euuenCaccount of . >f> 7 take, i t t h U action * t t £ imltk yoaA approval.

Ovtx t h t aortic ol the next few dayi, I m lU be mitfcifl to you itndlngUmJUan. aummt i both in Foawf SUMling and U.S. do l tax i fee the vatUom<nt l t iu mtth uktah mt M e • mftml/ y Involved.

Yowu t lnatAt ly ,

9JOHN A. ROSE

Enctl.



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t i + r z- ^ ^ ^ ^

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Appendix XV (65) Mr Michael Leyden, deceased & M rsDorothy Leyden

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrMichael Leyden, deceased & Mrs Dorothy Leyden.

a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Jack Stakelum dated 8 November2000.

b) Letter of 18 October 2000 from Inspectors to Mr Jack Stakelum.

c) Letter of 6 November 2000 and enclosure from Mr Stakelum toInspectors.

d) Letter of 21 February 2001 and enclosures from Mr Stakelum toInspectors.

e) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 7 April 1976.

f) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 8 April 1976.

g) Letter of 4 April 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

h) Letter of 13 June 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

i) Guinness and Mahon list of suitably secured loans dated 1976, 1977 &

1978, (extracts).



23 147 Q. When did that start?

24 A. I am inclined to believe 1976 but it might have been

25 1977. I would have started on my own in late 1975.

26 x only had one year of operations in 1975.

27 148 Q. Would you tell us what the arrangement in a general

2 8 way was with Mr. Traynor. How was this service

29 operated?



4

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2 6

27

2 8

29

If I can take a typical example/ a client may have

asked me to look after funds that in almost all

cases that I am aware of were already abroad.

I would have asked Mr. Traynor to advise me where

the funds might be transferred to, and then the

client would issue instructions when I got the

tracking route or account name or code or whatever

they might be.

Could you not be a little bit more specific because

you know these terms, X don't know. Would you mind

explaining them to us?

If the client wished to place the funds with me and

they were in some Royal Bank of Scotland in Jersey

or wherever.

This is client's of yours?Yes.

Why would they want to place their funds with you?

They might be unhappy about monitorihg the funds in

the sense of. what interest rate...(INTERJECTION).

But you were not a "bank?

No.

They were asking your advice as to where to put the

funds?

They were asking me whether I could monitor those

funds on their behalf.

Monitor is a word you use; I don't understand it.

Your clients have funds and they come into you.

What do they ask you to do?

They would say 'We have funds offshore' wherever

31



r^

1 they might have been 'Can you look after these funds

2 for me.'

3 155 Q. "Can you look after these funds." What did that

4 mean?

5 A. Would you endeavour to get the best interest rate.

6 Would you monitor the funds. '

7 156 Q. Take it slowly. Would you endeavour to get the best

8 interest rate. Were they asking you to change

9 where their funds were into some other financial

10 institution?

11 A. I don't think they would come in and say 'We have

12 funds. Will you change them for some other

13 financial institution.• I think a discussion would

14 have arose with them that they would have advised me

15 that they had £X in funds and say 'Can you look

16 after these funds on my behalf.'

17 157 Q. What does that mean? -

18 A. It.means that they might not want to•correspond

19 directly, with .whatever foreign bank they were using.

20 They might not want to get mail received from

21 foreign banks on the basis of monthly statements.

22They wouldn't feel that necessarily competent about

23 looking at whether the funds should be placed

24 one month or three months or six months. And that

25 they would like me to look after those factors.

26 158 Q. What did you do then?

27 A. I would probably advise them at some stage that

28 there would be a facility available through




You then contacted Guinness & Mahon?

Yes.

You used the word "facility." What does that mean

in this connection?

It means I would probably have contacted

Des Traynor. I would have said 'I have a client

— for the most part he wouldn't know who my clients

were — that wishes to have funds monitored abroad

by me.'

Don't used the word "monitored" because I don'.t

understand what it means. You have a client.

What is he to do?

Des Traynor is to give me an account number, a

reference, a bank where the client who would have

the funds would have to give instructions to his

bank to have the funds moved. Those funds —

I don't understand these things either — might be

moved to a receiving bank.

This is very important. If you don't understand it,

I understand even less. Let us take a typical

client with funds in Jersey. You tell Mr. Traynor

that this client is: dissatisfied. What does

Mr. Traynor then do?He gives me coded references. I don't remember but

it might well be a reference to a bank account in

London for so and so, for the account of so and so.

What was the bank?

Mr. Costello, I don't remember and I am sure those

instructions would have varied over the years.

33



1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

2 2

23

24

25

2 6

27

28

29

What was the account, in whose name was the account

to be placed?

X have a difficulty answering that question, not

wanting to be uncooperative. " All I am saying is

that Mr. Traynor would be seeking to get the funds

under his control and there is a transfer process.

You must have known the financial institution in

which your clients's funds were going to be placed?

The only answer I can give to that is I don't recall

because over the years they probably used different

financial institutions.

Tell me some of them that were used that

Mr. Traynor would have told you about. Give me the

names of some of those, Mr. Stakelum?

It is very difficult unde? oath, but let us try

Guinness & Mahon London for a start. I don't know.

But if it was Guinness & Mahon London, it would

probably be account of so and so, reference so and

-so-etc. etc.. But I am not absolutely positive of.,

that. It could also vary depending on the currency.

If it was dollars it might be something else.

What other financial institution did he tell you

that the money was going to be deposited in?

I don't know, I just don't know. It would be a

once-off instruction. I don't know. It probably

would depend on where the funds were coming from

too.

Do your best. I am sure you are under strain,

Mr. Stakelum. Tell me the numbers of other

34



1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

212 2

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

institutions that clients of yours had money

deposited as a result of your contact with

Mr. Traynor?

I just cannot answer that. That is not wanting to

be uncooperative, I just caruiot remember.

Why can't you remember?

How do I answer a question of why I cannot remember?

For example, were any of the funds lodged in any of

the Guinness & Mahon subsidiaries in Cayman or in

the Channel Islands?

I don't think so. But I think the funds would be

initially lodged somewhere maybe for the account of

Guinness Mahon Cayman, reference number so and so,

maybe for the account in Guinness & Mahon London for

Guinness & Mahon Dublin. I am not too sure.

You would get specific instructions.

It may have been the account of Guinness & Mahon in

Dublin or Guinness & Mahon in London. Was this the

offshore bank we are talking.about, Guinness & Mahon

Cayman Trust, the Ansbacher bank. They would have

been lodged in its account in Dublin or lodged in

its account in London?

It may well have been, I don't remember.

But you are under oath now?

That's right.

You are under oath. Can you say that funds your

client had asked you in relation to assistance were

lodged in an account in the name of Guinness Mahon

Cayman Trust in Dublin or in London?

35



1 A. I cannot remember. I suspect that some of the

2 instructions given at the time would be what was at

3 the best requirements of the Guinness & Mahon bank,

4 what their internal ...(INTERJECTION).

5 174 Q. A few minutes ago you to said to me that you gave

6 Mr. Traynor instructions and that you transferred

7 funds to him and they were transferred offshore, is

8 that not right. Didn't you say that to me a few

9 minutes ago?

10 A. They were probably offshore already. I thought we

11 were talking about a client...(INTERJECTION).

12 175 Q. They were offshore already you think?

13 A. Yes, most of the funds were offshore already.

14 176 Q. All the funds of these clients we are talking about

15 were offshore. Did you ever.have clients coming in

16 to you with funds that weren't offshore?

17 A. Yes.

18 177 Q. What would happen then?

19 A. • --At different stages,, in the early stages I think

20 Irish pounds could be converted without any problem

21 into Sterling. It is one and the same in the

22 1970's. Then-they could be moved from Sterling.

23 178 Q. Were they put offshore, the funds?

24 A. Yes.

25 179 Q. Where?

26 A. All I know is that with Des Traynor I would have

27 assumed Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, later

28 Ansbacher. But it could well have been

29 College Trustees or Guinness & Mahon Guernsey.

36



1 180 Q. One or the other?

2 A. Yes, I assume one or the other.

3 181 Q. Did any of your clients to your knowledge establish

4 trusts with the assistance of Guinness & Mahon with

5 Mr. Traynor either in the Cayman Islands or in the

6 Channel Islands?

7 A. Hot to my knowledge.

8 182 Q. None of than told you that they had done this?

r^ 9 A. No.

10 183 Q. Mr. Traynor didn't tell you that he was going to

11 suggest this to them?

12 A. No.

13 184 Q. You are pretty certain on that or are you doubtful

14 about it?

15 A. I am not aware certainly of any clients that

16 established such trusts. I am not aware of any

17 that did.

18 185 Q. If they didn't establish trusts, you are aware of

19 . clients who transferred funds offshore?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 186 Q. We will break now for a cup of coffee,

22 Mr. Stakelum, for about ten minutes or so.

23


25

2 6

27

28

29



OurRef: C/S1Q/NM

18* October 2000

Mr. Jack Stakehini"Fairmont"Ballyronan RoadKilpedderCo. Wicklow

Strictly Private & Confidential -Addressee Only

Dear Sir

I refer to your letter of 11 October 2000, and I reply an my own behalf, and on behalf of mycolleagues, Mr. Justice Declan Costdlo and-Mr. Paul Rowan.•

We now wish tn wfamtnft yni ym<W rmfh concerning the matters set out in our two letters dated30 August 2000 and 21 September 2000. To thal'end, I propose that an interview would takeplace in our offices at fee above address, either en Wednesday 8 or on Thursday 9 November, at10.00 a.m. Perhaps you would make contact with our secretary, Ms Prances Gaynar at the abovephone number to confirm either date, or to make mutually convenient alternative arrangements ifthose dates do not suit you.

We note your refusal to provide us with, names of yourdients prior to examination. I must pointout to you that you are obliged by law to provide us with the information w e have required ofyou. In that regard, I refer you to Appendix B of our two letters, which sets out our statutorypowers. You will note that section 10(5) of the Companies Act 1990 imposes a duty upon you tocomply with our requirement, and, in the case of a refusal to do so, m&es provision for thematter to be dealt with by the High Court

I therefore repeat our requirement that you provide us with the names and addresses of thoseclients who you may have advised in relation to trusts in the Cayman or Channel Islands, or inrelation to the transfer of funds to either o f those islands. We require this information to beprovided in writing prior to the interview. We have noted also your expressed intention to argueat interview feat t would be invidious to disclose fee dentity of your clients. Once again, I mustpoint out to youfeat you are obliged to do so, in compliance with our requirement The interviewis not the proper forum in which to make submissions, and it is not our practice to entertain them.

Yours faithfully

„f 8 fii'T ;i.



"FAIRMONT"

BALLYRONAN ROAD

KILPEDDER

CO. WICKLOWTELEPHONE: 2810646 FAX: 2810645MOBILE: 087 2854660

CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT .JACK STAKELUM

The InspectorsFloor

Trident House A0»

Z0^ —

Blackroclc

CO. DUBLIN

6 November, 2000

Dear Sirs,

With reference to your letterof tho 18* October, and in particular the thirdparagraph, I should point out that I did not refiise as such to provide the information inquestion, merely that I should be afforded the opportunity to argue why I should not beasked to (fivulge such information. The persons in question dealt with me cm anunderstanding of confidentiality, and as the Inspectors will surely appreciate, it is difficultnot to honour that confidentiality, particularly when one has been used, over one'sprofessional life, to honouring the confidentiality of Clients.

Howr/or, as you point out o r c e f u l l y n your letter, you are not prepared to allowme that opportunity and you have referred to the legal position. In the circumstances, Iattach a list of the names and addresses of the persons in question

Your&fiuthMy,

Encly

V.A.T. Number 23S448SK



iGTTeii 6

i

C f hi .

r

Midud Lcjdat, c/o The Bungalow, Holme Lane,- Measingham, Hear Scunthorpe,

South Humbcrside. England, (deceased)

r s



21 February2001.

JOHN J. STAKELUM"Fairmont"• Ballyronan Road,

Kilpedder, Co. Wicklow.

( e p m - T )

The High Court Inspectors,3 rd

Floor,

Trident House,Blackrock,Co. Dublin.

>« m m

Re: Interviews with the Inspectors on 8/11/2000 and 6/12/2000.

Dear Inspectors,

•He content in sections l and 2 has been written m order to add clarification to the information^

given in my Statement dated 22 September 2000.



1. Th e Consultancy Business I set np in 1975.•

In December 1975 I decided to set up a business that would provide a general financialConsultancy service to clients. I had identified the market need in Haughey Boland & Companyduring my auditing work: but more particularly during toy receivership, liquidation and financialrestructuring experience. The services I decided to focus on were:

• Preparation o f properly assembled requests for financing from banks.• Preparation of w ell constructed projected cash flow and profit and loss statements.

• Accompanying clienis at meetings with their bankers.• The presentation o f meaningful management accounts and the procedures within businessesfor the timely production of them.

• Being a sounding board for all lands of operating issues - both problems and perceivedopportunites.

• Guidance on where to go and tow to request professional services.• Helping businesses in difficulty to get back to profitability or to move logically to

receivership or liquidation.• Acting for clients in the purchase or safe of businesses.• Acting in a non-Executive Director capacity when requested to do so.

Those were the principal service headings under which I operated in the name o f Business

Enterprises Limited from December 1975 until my retirement on the 31 October 1998. Th isbusiness was busy, demanding and successful. Typically, it occupied well over 100% of 50 -hour weeks.

2.- Th e service I gave to persons who wished to hold ftmds offshore.

Involvement w ith the savings o f clients in any capacity whatsoever was not envisaged in m yoriginal plan. When in due course I agreed to provide a service I required that it be on aminimalist basis. Towards thid my stipulations were:

• Funds would be deposited in licensed banks at rates of interest that would be competitive and

market related. This empowered depositors to be satisfied concerning both safety andinterest rates.

• All decisions in relation to movements in these funds would be conveyed to me directly andorally by the person concerned;

® I would undertake no advisory or management role in relation to these fhnds and this factwas communicated to each person with particular reference to decisions that concerned thebuying or selling of investments.



• I would neither' issue'nor obtain receipts for. movements in funds. Neither would I keep anyledger records, issue statements or engage in correspondence.

• Information in relation to balances and rates of interest would be provided on an oral basis

only.• Originally, no charge was envisaged for this service but over time it became necessary to

recover costs on a case by case basis.

My operating procedure for this service had but four components:

• A deposit account in G&M that I have described as a hoteitpotch account.• A manual memorandum record I kept in my office under my personal control.• A float account in AIB.• A monthly reconciliation o f the sum of the memorandum record s with the sum o f the

accounts) in G&M and any float balances.

In the interest o f completeness perixaps I should add also:

• G&M would be aware o f the total fluids I had in my hotchpotch account• G&M would not be aware of the names of the depositors whose funds, in aggregate,

comprised the balance in the hotchpotch account albeit that a name and an amount couldsurface as part of another business transaction with the bank, e.g. a back-to-back loan.

• Some of my clients would b e aware generally that the fiwds they held offshore were in aG&M vehicle. Other clients would be aware that their funds were ofEshore but would haveno awareness or care about the name of the bank in which their money was deposited.

• Only I knew the names in the memorandum account and only I knew the ownership of thebalance in the float account kept in AIB.



5. The information requested by Ma. Mackey on the 6 December 2000.

The information requested by M s. Mackey on 6 December'2000 is given in the three schedules

that are appended to this letter.

Schedule 1 relates to the list o f names I sent to the Inspectors on 6 November 2000. All on thisschedule had oflshore deposits in G&M through my procedure.

Yours sincerely,



SCHEDULE 1

Name. OffshoreDeposits

Back to Data DepositBack loan. Opened

DatsDaposrtClosed

Source of Funds Source of Funds- Offshore Irish Pounds.

Michael Leyden. Yea. PoeslUy. c. 1978. On death mid 60s. AH. None.By wife c. 1887/88.

c



7th April, 1976

It«m 88(C ) Leyden T a r — Liaited

Agreed to adv anc e Loan of up to £40, 000 - suitably secured.

. !.

K

i



Appendix XV (65) (l) (f )



n W G Dtf (g/iMiffef /i^efwfc l^

e02 8th April, 1976.

PRESENT: J.H.G., T.G.L.F. (Part tiae), J.D.T., M.E.O'K.

REPORTED DETAILS

L e y d a n F a m aL i m i t e d . J.D.T. Agreed t o a d v a n c e l o a n o f u p t o

£40,000, suitably ••cured.



Autbacfaer I'wptf*

A M tn tk tf ^ f t kt S utff A M ktth tf M A p W C ifc tta lfc iif

PImm e p l y o:42Ftttwttliam Square,DubUnZTW: 765144/76306SRnu 6120M

P A W . O M d C q pM . M h k W M M h i

tac CMP) N^TM

Q M I M M K T

H. David Humphries, Esq. rSenior Manager - Operations,Guinness t Mahon Limited,17 College Green,DOBLIW 2.

4th April, 1990.

Dear David,

could you plMM arrange tha issue of a Starling Draft forStg.878,000.00 payable to Leyden (Scunthorpe) Linlted anddebit Ansbacher Limited Account Ho.13154602.

X would like to have this Draft collected on Friday morningplease.

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Travnor.

JD T/AJW



Appendix XV (65) (1) (h)



r ^

A Mmb tr o f Om Hurry Aiubtdm Hokbtgj PLC Mtrchmu tanking Group

Please reply to:42 FitzwQliam Square,D u b l i n !Tel: 765144/763065F a r 612035

P.O. Box IT. Onod Cayman, British W«t lndinPhoar. (109) 94M6S3- 4

T«t«c CP430SFas (109) 949-7946

(109) 949-3267

G a r r e t t L o ga n, E s q . ,I r i s h I n t e r c o n t i n e n t a l Bank L i m i te d ,91 M e r r i o n S q u a r e ,DUBLIN 2 .

D e a r G a r r e t t ,

C o u ld y ou p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o l e t me h a v e f o r c o l l e c t i o n t w oS t e r l i n g D r a f t s a s fo l lo w :

P a y a b l e t o A . B e n n e t t

P a y a b l e t o D . L e y d e n

£1 ,640.000TtO'Vl.O6'

£8,550.0<^\.o'UO>

P l e a s e d e b i t t h e c o s t o f e a c h t o A n sb a c h er L i m i t e d A c c o u n tN o . 0 2 / 0 1 0 8 7 / 8 1 .

Y o u r s f i n c e r e l y ,

n * S x X O

tlx ANSBACHER LIMITED

DPC/AJW



Appendix XV (65) ( l) (i )



# r. ' i 5 - -

Wr

i f

11.

Ii,

LeydeaFcnnsLid.

Michael Leyden

4040

f ^ r> tf • 1 '

f m - l

r



m -

Michael Leyden



31s-

Michael Leyden



Appendix XV (66) Mr James Henry Lindsay

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrJames Henry Lindsay.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James Henry (John Harold) Lindsay dated 24March 2000.

b) Guinness and Mahon statement of 19 February 1987 re GM CT.

c) Telefax of 31 March 1994 - Cayman International Bank & Trust GroupLimited to IIB.

d) Letter of 13 October 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr James Henry Lindsay.

a) Letter of 3 December 2001 - Gore & Grimes Solicitors to the Inspectors.



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JAMES HENRY LINDSAY

UNDER OATH

ON FRIDAY, 24TH MARCH 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors:

Solicitor to the Inspectors

Interviewee:


MS. MACKEY BL

MS. M. CUMMINS

MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY

Represented by: MR. KARL HAYES

GORE & GRIMES



WITNESS

MR. J. LINDSAY

I N D E X

EXAMINATION




1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS ON TUESDAY,

2 2 4TH MARCH 2 000

3

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will start

5 our interview.

6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello

8 and Ms. Mackey is on my

9 right. We are the Inspectors, two of the

10 Inspectors, appointed by The High Court, as you

11 know.

12 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.

13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you

14 that this is not a Court.

15 It is not a tribunal.

16 MR. LINDSAY: Right.

17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is an investigation.

18 MR. LINDSAY: Sure.

19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If in the course of the

20 questions that we ask, you

21 wish to consult with your solicitor please tell me

22 that you wish to consult and we will stop the

23 questioning while to do so.

24 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.

25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If your solicitor wishes

26 to consult with you he can

27 indicate this to me and we will stop questioning for

28 that purpose.

29 MR. LINDSAY: Right, Okay.

4



1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, in this

2 investigation your

3 evidence will be taken under oath and I will ask our

4 solicitor now, Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath

5 to you.

6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes. Do I stand up?

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, it is all right.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

5



1 MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS

2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

3

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, there is

5 one preliminary matter

6 that I want to raise with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 2 Q. In our letter to you we asked you for a detailed

9 statement about your relationship with "Ansbacher"

10 and we have not received any statement?

11 A. Just a moment ago Mr. Hayes here mentioned that to

12 me.

13 3 Q. Yes?

14 A. There was a chap in Deloitte Touche called

15 Eamonn Coates and I understood from him that he had

16 made the arrangement that I come here and, in fact,

17 that was it. I looked through that.

18 4 Q. However, Mr. Lindsay it could not be clearer. We

19 asked in our letter to you for a full and detailed

20 statement of all the dealings that the company had

21 with you either directly or indirectly. What was

22 the problem about giving us a statement?

23 A. Absolutely no problem. I mean it is a stupid thing

24 to say but I didn't even see that because what I

25 immediately did was I got in touch

26 with Eamonn Coates.

27 5 Q. What is his name?

28 A. Eamonn Coates.

29 6 Q. Coates?

6



1 A. He is with Deloitte Touche.

2 7 Q. Yes?

3 A. They were our accountants.

4 8 Q. Yes?

5 A. And I understood that he had contacted this office

6 here. He said, "What you have to do now is turn up

7 on the 24th".

8 9 Q. Yes. Did he not advise you that you should make a

9 statement?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 10 Q. Did you not see this in the letter?

12 A. No, I didn't. I must admit that when I saw so much

13 of this letter I thought, "Well, this is something

14 for my accountant".

15 11 Q. Yes. Perhaps, you can outline now to us?


17 12 Q. What your...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. In other words my understanding...(INTERJECTION).

19 13 Q. No, sorry, just wait now. Just before we go on. We

20 also asked for all the documents that you had?

21 A. I don't have any documents. I haven't had for maybe

22 ten years or so.

23 14 Q. Who were your accountants?

24 A. Deloitte Touche.

25 15 Q. From 1979?

26 A. From before that.

27 16 Q. From before that?

28 A. Yes.

29 17 Q. Have you asked them have they any records or

7



1 documents ?

2 A. No, but I presume they have the records, all our tax

3 records.

4 18 Q. Yes. However, also all your relationships with the

5 company, would they not have?

6 A. With which company now?

7 19 Q. With "Ansbacher"?

8 A. I don't think we had any relationship with

9 "Ansbacher".

10 20 Q. Do you not?

11 A. I don't think so.

12 21 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. Because at the time when our

14 company...(INTERJECTION).

15 22 Q. No, I am talking about your company. I am talking

16 about you personally?

17 A. No, I know personally. When it went belly up --

18 that I think was about the time that

19 Guinness & Mahon became involved with "Ansbacher".

20 23 Q. Are you saying that you had no relationship at all

21 with the company, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

22 Company, which subsequently changed its name

23 to "Ansbacher"?

24 A. Yes, certainly with Guinness & Mahon, yes.

25 24 Q. No?

26 A. Very much so.

27 25Q.

No, I am asking: Did you have any relationship with

28 the company itself, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

29 Limited?



1 A. Yes, Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, yes.

2 26 Q. You did?

3 A. Yes.

4 27 Q. Personally?

5 A. No. Well, the company.

6 28 Q. No, no. Leave the company. I am not asking you

7 about the company, Mr. Lindsay?

8 A. Yes.

9 29 Q. I am asking you personally. Did you not have a

10 personal relationship?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 30 Q. You did?

13 A. Yes, subsequent -- well, we will come to that.

14 31 Q. How are we to carry out this investigation if you

15 have not given us the documents?

16 A. But I haven't got any documents.

17 32 Q. Your accountants have?

18 A. I presume they have.

19 33 Q. Very well then. Tell us about your own personal

20 relationship with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

21 Limited?

22 A. Right, Cayman -- you see that is subsequent to the

23 Super Ser business.

24 34 Q. Yes?

25 A. Because when the Super Ser business went flat I got

26 a job in Bangladesh and during that time I had

27 problems at home. My wife was looking for a divorce

28 and she had a Court Order at one time that I

29 couldn't issue any cheques.

9



1 35 Q. What year are we talking about?

2 A. 1986 or 1987 I would think, somewhere about there.

3 I had three kids in college in America and they had

4 to be paid.

5 36 Q. What are their names?

6 A. Ann Lindsay.

7 37 Q. Alan?

8 A. Ann.

9 38 Q. Ann?

10 A. Ann, yes.

11 39 Q. Yes?

12 A. And she was in a university called Highland

13 University near Alberqueque New Mexico.

14 40 Q. Yes?

15 A. Now, she wouldn't go over there unless her boyfriend

16 went with her.

17 41 Q. We need not go into these details. What were the

18 other sons?

19 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).

20 42 Q. Had you sons?

21 A. Yes.

22 43 Q. What were their names?

23 A. Yes, Ralph Lindsay.

24 44 Q. Yes?

25 A. And he was in Washington State University doing

26 forestry.

27 45 Q. Had you another son?

28 A. Yes, Alan.

29 46 Q. Alan?

10



1 A. He lives in Spain.

2 47 Q. Yes. You were saying then that something happened

3 in 1986?

4 A. Yes. I rang up Mr. Traynor and said, "I have got a

5 problem here and any money that I have sent to a

6 bank or to Dublin I can't write a cheque on it."

7

8

So, he said, "You just get the money sent to me and

I will sort that out," which he did. It was in

9 Cayman and that is how I became involved with --

10 personally now, that is how I became involved with

11 Guinness & Mahon Cayman.

12 48 Q. Yes. Tell us what the arrangement was?

13 A. The arrangement was that the money would be sent to

14 him and then whenever I wanted money sent to pay

15 school fees or anything like that he would forward

16 the money.

17 49 Q. Yes. Did he tell you what he was going to do with

18 the money? You forwarded money to him?

19 A. Yes .

20 50 Q. Did he tell you what he was going to do with it?

21 A. No. He was going to pay any bills that I wanted

22 paid out of it.

23 51 Q. Did he tell you it was going into the Cayman, the

24 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?

25 A. I don't remember him using that term actually

26 but...(INTERJECTION).

27 52Q.

What did you understand, Mr. Lindsay?

28 A. Well, in those days -- I mean I certainly hadn't the

29 same understanding of Cayman.



1 53 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what did you understand that he was

2 going to do with the money? Where was he putting

3 it? Where was he going to deposit it?

4 A. I honestly don't know. I presume it was Cayman.

5 54 Q. Yes?

6 A. Because it was out of the jurisdiction of the

7 Court Order that was against me.

8 55 Q. Yes. Tell me everything now that you can about this

9 arrangement?

10 A. Well, that worked okay. All the fees were paid and

11 all the rest of it. Each of the three were four

12 years in college and when it was more or less over

13 there was a remainder and I said -- I had a son in

14 Spain who was getting married and I got the

15 remainder sent to him to buy his house.

16 56 Q. Yes.

17 A. That was the end of that association.

18 57 Q. Yes. Did you enter into any Trust Deed in relation

19 to this arrangement?

20 A. No, none at all.

21 58 Q. You just... (INTERJECTION) ?

22 A. It was just done...(INTERJECTION).

23 59 Q. You just handed on money to Mr. Traynor?

24 A. Yes, and that was the way I had dealt with him from

25 the very beginning.

26 60 Q. Yes. Did you pay any tax on the interest that the

27 money earned?

28 A. No. I don't even know if it did earn interest.

2 9 61 Q. Mr. Lindsay, I want to put some documents now to you

12



1 that have come into our possession as a result of

2 the investigation. This is the first ledger

3 "Resident & Non-Resident Loans". It is one that

4 is 1973. If you would hand that up to him

5 (Same handed)?

6 A. Thank you.

7

8

62 Q. No, no. It is not that.

MS CUMMINS: It is, Judge, I have taken

9 the names out of it just.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, all right. Hand it

11 up (Same Handed).

12 A. Thank you.

13 63 Q. Sorry, would you just give me that back please. It

14 does not matter about the names Ms. Cummins. Show

15 me that letter? It does not matter about the names.

16 Just hand it up (Exhibit 1) (Same handed)?

17 A. Yes .

18 64 Q. This is a record from Guinness & Mahon here in

19 Ireland?

20 A. Yes .

21 65 Q. It is a record of "Resident & Non-Resident Loans"?

22 A. Yes .

23 66 Q. It refers to you Mr. Lindsay, "J. H. Lindsay," and

24 it is a loan of £17,000. There is a balance on the

25 loan of £17,445.80. You will see that the repayment

26 date is 1973 and then the comment "suitably

27 secured," is written after it. This is a loan in

28 1973 to you personally?

29 A. Yes .



1 67 Q. By Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. Maybe. I don't know.


4 A. No, I don't.

5 69 Q. You see the information which we have obtained

6 Mr. Lindsay is that the phrase "suitably secured",

7

8

means that it was a cash back loan and that it was

on a deposit in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman

9 Trust Limited?

10 A. Yes .

11 70 Q. That is what the "suitably secured" means. If this

12 is so this would appear that you had a loan from

13 Guinness & Mahon as far back as 1973 that was

14 secured on -- that was cash backed?

15 A. The only security that Guinness & Mahon ever got

16 from us was -- I know I have to answer you directly

17 but may I go just a little bit beyond that?

18 71 Q. Yes?

19 A. When we first of all got the agencies for these

20 units, these heaters, portable gas heaters.

21 72 Q. Yes?

22 A. We brought some of them home and they -- obviously

23 there was an interest in them and over a year they

24 started to, you know, sell. We then felt that if we

25 could get in a big number of these we could

26 definitely sell them.

27 73Q.

Yes?

28 A. So, I went to the Bank Of Ireland, which was my bank

29 and my father's bank and my grandfather's bank, but



1 any way they wouldn't give us the money. As a

2 matter of fact it might have been -- I don't know if

3 that would fit in with that or not but it might have

4 been about £17,000. It was a big sum then.

5 74 Q. Yes?

6 A. And we were with Haughey Boland then. They were our

7

8

accountants and they sent us to Guinness & Mahon and

there I met Mr. Traynor. He said, "Can you

9 definitely sell these?" I said, "Yes, absolutely,

10 definitely." He said, "What proof can you give me?"

11 I said, "Well, Calor Kosangas have said that they

12 would take a percentage of them." He said, "You get

13 me a substantial order from Calor Kosangas and I

14 will give you the money".

15 75 Q. Yes?

16 A. So, I went to Calor Kosangas and they agreed to take

17 them and I gave him the thing and he gave us the

18 money.

19 76 Q. This is you? You say "us" Mr. Lindsay?

20 A. Yes, the firm.

21 77 Q. No. However, this is not a loan to your firm. I

22 will come to the loans to the firm in a minute. I

23 am talking -- this is a personal loan to you?

24 A. Well, maybe at that stage it was a personal loan.

25 78 Q. Yes?

26 A. I don't even know if we were a firm then.

27 79 Q. You see the phrase "suitably secured"?

28 A. Yes, I do.

29 80 Q. Which I have drawn your attention to?



1 A. Yes .

2 81 Q. Did Mr. Traynor then make the arrangement that you

3 were to transfer money to the Cayman Islands?

4 A. No, he never mentioned that.

5 82 Q. You say that was in 1986?

6 A. That was -- yes, that was much later.

7

8

83 Q. I see. You see I have to suggest to you that this

loan was continued on Mr. Lindsay and that the

9 documents show that you were still indebted

10 to Guinness & Mahon in 1975. That is the first one.

11 Perhaps, I gave you the wrong date. It was 1973,

12 that was the repayment date. Would you look at the

13 other document "J. H. Lindsay" (Same Handed)?

14 A. Thank you.

15 84 Q. Again, "suitable secured". I must suggest to you

16 Mr. Lindsay that that loan, probably it was the same

17 loan, was secured by a Cayman deposit?

18 A. No, it wasn't. The only security, as I say, that we

19 ever gave Guinness & Mahon, and it happened again

20 later, was in the form that he would advance money

21 against orders.

22 85 Q. Mr. Lindsay, may I refer you to another document.

23 Ms. Cummins, it is the ledger account for 1987. It

24 shows a draft issue to Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 2)(Same

25 Handed)?

26 A. Thank you.

27 86Q.

Do you see that?

28 A. Yes. When was this, 19...(INTERJECTION)?

29 87 Q. 1987?

16



1 A. 1987.

2 88 Q. I will just show you what this document is. It is a

3 ledger account in Dublin of Guinness & Mahon. It is

4 the account of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.

5 Do you see that on the left-hand side, the top on

6 the left-hand side?

7 A. Yes.

8 89 Q. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 90 Q. You see it is a sterling account. That Guinness

11 Mahon Cayman Trust Limited had in Guinness & Mahon

12 Limited?

13 A. Yes.

14 91 Q. Do you see about a third of the way down on the

15 left-hand side in February 1987;

16 "draft issued to J. H. Lindsay"?

17

18 A. Yes.

19 92 Q. £13,411?

20 A. I don't think the figure is there, but is it?

21 93 Q. Perhaps, it is the wrong figure?

22 A. Yes.

23 94 Q. Sorry. It is £1,000. I am sorry I am misreading

24 it.

25 A. £1,000.

26 95 Q. It is £1,066?

27 A. £1,066.

28 96 Q. Yes?

29 A. Yes.

17



1 97 Q. Is that not a draft issued to you for £1,066.26 from

2 the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account?

3 A. I don't know what it is. I could make suggestions.

4 98 Q. Just look at it now. Does it not appear that the

5 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account is

6 debited with this figure, this draft, which is

7 payable to you?

8 A. Yes, but by this stage the company had an account in

9 Cayman.

10 99 Q. I am just asking you about this payment to you, out

11 to you personally?

12 A. I have no idea. I mean it could have been for

13 tickets, air tickets, or I don't know.

14 100 Q. Out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited

15 account?

16 A. Out of our account in the Cayman.

17 101 Q. No, this is your personal payment, a payment to you,

18 out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?

19 A. I have no idea why they put that there.

20 102 Q. Yes?

21 A. I have no idea at all.

22 103 Q. All right. I want you to look at page 29. It is a

23 report about H. Lindsay (Exhibit 3)(Same Handed)?

24 A. Thank you.

25 104 Q. I want to explain to you what this document is

26 Mr. Lindsay?

27 A. Yes.

28 105 Q. This is a report from Guinness & Mahon. It is 1978,

29 April 1978?

18



1 A. Yes.

2 106 Q. It is a report to The Central Bank by

3 Guinness & Mahon. It is describing its major loans

4 to the bank?

5 A. Yes.

6 107 Q. To The Central Bank. It has there,

7 "H. Lindsay - £156,537".

8

9 That is you. You are described as:

10 "Mr. Lindsay is a major shareholder inSuper Ser Limited."?

11

12 A. Yes.

13 108 Q. Is that you?

14 A. Yes, I was a 50% shareholder.

15 109 Q. Yes. It says the purpose of the loan was

16 "personal loan/working capital".

17

18 Do you remember that loan?

19 A. No, I do not.

20 110 Q. Do you see it says that securities are held?

21 A. Securities,

22 "Guarantees are held up to £175,000..."

23

24 111 Q. Guarantees?

25 A. Yes.

26 112 Q. Yes. Then it goes on:

27 "Comment: Guinness & Mahon are happyto continue this facility to

28 Mr. Lindsay. No facility letter wasavailable in respect of this loan which

29 was arranged personally byMr. Traynor."

19



2 Can you remember that?

3 A. I mean I never got £156,000 or £175,000 from

4 Guinness & Mahon personally. I can only suggest

5 that they are confusing the company and me.

6 113 Q. Would you turn over the page to the next page

7 (Same Handed)?

8 A. Yes.

9 114 Q. This is a continuation and it talks about:

10 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay - £1,336,023"

11

12 and,

13 "Super Ser Limited - £1,179,486".

14

15 These are loans to, it says,

16 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?

17

18 A. Yes, all right. I don't see it.

19 115 Q. Do you remember...(INTERJECTION).

20 A. Yes, yes, I see it.

21 116 Q. Do you remember a substantial loan of £1.3 million?

22 A. No, I don't but I can imagine circumstances in which

23 it could have happened.

24 117 Q. Yes. The document says:

25 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?

26

27 A. Yes.

28 118 Q. Was it to you personally or to the company?

29 A. Well, I never got anything like that.

20



1 119 Q. You never got it?

2 A. No.

3 120 Q. You were mentioning that the company had deposits.

4 Do you see,

5 "Security: Super Ser Limited hasdeposits of around £400,000 with

6 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?

7

8 A. Yes.

9 121 Q. That is what you are referring to? That seems to

10 have -- the company seems to have had deposits in

11 the Cayman Islands in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

12 Limited?

13 A. Yes.

14 122 Q. Do you see this was in 1978?

15 A. 1978, maybe.

16 123 Q. I should explain to you that I am not

17 investigating...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. No.

19 124 Q. We are not investigating the company today?

20 A. Yes.

21 125 Q. I am investigating your personal affairs?

22 A. Yes, all right.

23 126 Q. However, you referred to the fact that the company

24 had deposits?

25 A. Yes.

26 127 Q. I am just drawing your attention to this fact?

27 A. Yes. May I explain some of the intertwining?

28 128 Q. Yes, do?

29 A. Well, we started off selling heaters here and we had

21



1 an Irish company.

2 129 Q. What was the name of it?

3 A. Super Ser Limited.

4 130 Q. Super Ser Limited?

5 A. Yes.

6 131 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?

7 A. Yes.

8 132 Q. And when you say "we" who was "we"?

9 A. A man called Goosen.

10 133 Q. Yes?

11 A. And myself.

12 134 Q. Yes?

13 A. We were 50/50 in it.

14 135 Q. Yes?

15 A. Then things began to dry up a bit here and we went

16 to England.

17 136 Q. Yes?

18 A. Mr. Goosen went to England and he started the same

19 thing there and I was also 50/50 in that.

20 137 Q. Yes?

21 A. Now, that sold an awful lot more stuff than we sold

22 in Ireland.

23 138 Q. What was the name of that company?

24 A. I think it was Super Ser UK Limited.

25 139 Q. Yes?

26 A. Or something.

27 140 Q. Yes?

28 A. Yes, and then subsequently we decided that our sales

29 were slowing down, and as the people who supplied us

22



1 with these heaters were getting more and more

2 expensive, and as more and more competition was

3 coming on the market it was, you know, really very

4 difficult for us to deal with Super Ser Spain

5 anymore. So, we decided to build a factory, which

6 we built.

7 141 Q. Where?

8 A. In Tallaght.

9 142 Q. Yes?

10 A. And we completely equipped that and we started to

11 make our own heaters.

12 143 Q. Was that Mr. Goosen and yourself?

13 A. Yes .

14 144 Q. Was that in Super Ser Limited or another company?

15 A. No, I am not quite sure what we called ourselves

16 then but the product that we made was Ardant,

17 A-r-d-a-n-t.

18 145 Q. Yes?

19 A. A-n-t, we were not allowed to have E-n-t.

20 146 Q. When was that Mr. Lindsay?

21 A. I don't know. It might have been somewhere around

22 1978/1980.

23 147 Q. Could the loans that are referred to here, in this

24 document, be loans in respect of the building of the

25 factory?

26 A. It could be but I am not saying definitely it is.

27 148Q.

Yes?

28 A. We now had a factory and we had a lot of people

29 working in it and we had an expensive Research &

23



1 Development Department, and it got to the point

2 where we had to sell 70,000 units before we broke

3 even.

4 149 Q. Could I just interrupt you? What is the name of the

5 company that you are talking about?

6 A. Our factory?

7 150 Q. What was the name of the company?

8 A. I think it was Ardant.

9 151 Q. Ardant?

10 A. A-r-d-a-n-t.

11 152 Q. Limited?

12 A. Yes .

13 153 Q. It was a separate factory. Did Super Ser Limited

14 remain in business?

15 A. No, no, that ran down.

16 154 Q. Yes?

17 A. So, in other words what we were doing was supplying

18 our customers from Tallaght instead of from Spain.

19 155 Q. Yes?

20 A. But it became obvious then that -- when we started

21 to sell the heaters a bottle of gas was 18 shillings

22 or a pound or something like that, and that would

23 enable a person to give some measure of heat to a

24 house for a week.

25 156 Q. Yes?

26 A. But by this time now, up about around 1980 or

27 thereabouts, it was something like £10 for a bottle

28 of gas and that plus the fact that they do not wear

29 out the place got saturated, we knew we had to get

24



1 markets somewhere else. So, I went to America to

2 see what could be done there but the sale of unflued

3 gas heaters was forbidden there. I went there and

4 there was a man in the United States who is in

5 charge of all standards.

6 157 Q. If I could interrupt you Mr. Lindsay? I am not

7

8 A.

today concerned about the company liabilities?

Yes, right.

9 158 Q. I am concerned about your own personal liabilities?

10 A. Yes, right, yes.

11 159 Q. And your arrangements, your own personal

12 arrangements ?

13 A. Yes .

14 160 Q. With Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited and

15 subsequently "Ansbacher"?

16 A. Yes .

17 161 Q. So unless what you are telling me now is something

18 to do...(INTERJECTION)?

19 A. Well, I think it is.

20 162 Q. With your personal...(INTERJECTION)?

21 A. Well, I think -- yes, I think it has, in so much as

22 eventually we were successful and we were the only

23 company, not Japanese, German, Italian or Spanish,

24 nothing -- we were the only company to get a heater

25 passed for the United States.

26 163 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

27 A. And then we started a company in the Unites States

28 and we appointed a man, an accountant.




1 A. Well, I now -- It probably has our own name. I am

2 not too sure but I know the name of the product that

3 we sold was the Shamrock heater.

4 165 Q. However, again, I want to explain to you Mr. Lindsay

5 that I am concerned about your own

6 personal...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. Yes .

8 166 Q. Relationship with Cayman?

9 A. Sure.

10 167 Q. I am not quite certain what relevance this has?

11 A. Well, when we started the factory, or the company in

12 America, a man called John Grace was the man we

13 appointed to run it.

14 168 Q. Yes?

15 A. And we transferred money from England, from

16 Super Ser UK because they had more money in their

17 account than we had, to start this American company.

18 Although I was never in Cayman I understood that

19 this bank, that was looking after us was in Cayman.

20 169 Q. Yes?

21 A. But may I say that -- I mean in those days Cayman

22 was just a name of another bank. It didn't have the

23 sort of ramifications that it has today.

24 170 Q. Mr. Lindsay, would you look at another document?

25 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 4). I will explain what this

26 document is to you. This is from Mr. Furze. Do you

27 know who Mr. Furze is?

28 A. I never met him but I knew who he was.

29 171 Q. You know the name?



1 A. Yes.

2 172 Q. He is, in fact, a Managing Director, one of the

3 Managing Directors of the Guinness Mahon Cayman

4 Trust Company in Cayman?

5 A. Yes, I knew he was associated with Des Traynor.

6 173 Q. Yes. That is from Mr. Furze?

7 A. Right.

8 174 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. Alan Lindsay, that is it.

10 175 Q. Yes?

11 A. That is what I was talking about, I am sure.

12 176 Q. This is a transfer of £270,000:

13 "Should be grateful if you wouldarrange the transfer of Stg£270,00014 to..."

15

16 Barcelona?

17 A. Yes.

18 177 Q. This is the account of an Alan Lindsay?

19 A. Yes.

20 178 Q. This is from The Irish Intercontinental Bank

21 Limited?

22 A. Well, now, I never had anything to do with

23 Intercontinental Bank.

24 179 Q. You may not have known it but the account which you

25 could draw on?

26 A. Yes.

27 180 Q. Was at that time -- it had been moved to The Irish

28 Intercontinental Bank?

29 A. Yes.

27



1 181 Q. This is the sum of money that you paid to your son,

2 is that right?

3 A. Yes .

4 182 Q. This was paid out of the account of Guinness Mahon

5 Cayman Trust in IIB?

6 A. Yes .

7 183 Q. You see the debit?

8 A. Yes .

9 184 Q. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. Is it of any interest where I got that money?

11 185 Q. Sorry?

12 A. Is it of any interest where I got that money?

13 186 Q. If you want to tell me, yes?

14 A. I know you want to stick directly on the point.

15 187 Q. Yes. I want to stick to your


17 A. Yes. First of all the business, the heater

18 business, in the United States blossomed. It went

19 tremendously and then suddenly all the gas

20 suppliers, all the Seven Sisters as they call

21 themselves, stopped the supply of gas for portable

22 gas heaters because it says -- in the States the

23 legal position was that people would start wheeling

24 them up against curtains and so forth and it was too

25 liable for claims and they had ordered that the

26 supply of gas for heaters to be stopped. So, in one

27 day our business was stopped.

28 188 Q. Yes?

29 A. Then after that I had to do something and I got a



1 job as a production engineer.

2 189 Q. I am sorry. I am going to stop you Mr. Lindsay

3 because I just am concerned to obtain evidence from

4 you about your relationship with Guinness Mahon

5 Cayman Trust Limited?

6 A. Yes .

7 190 Q. It looks as if you had £270,000?

8 A. £270,000, yes.

9 191 Q. There?

10 A. Yes .

11 192 Q. Which was transferred to your son?

12 A. And that was after I had paid for three children.

13 193 Q. Yes?

14 A. For four years.

15 194 Q. Yes. However, what I am suggesting to you, perhaps

16 you could comment on it Mr. Lindsay, is that it is

17 extremely unlikely that a sum of that magnitude

18 would not be earning interest?

19 A. I never got any documents. I never got a sheet of

20 paper. It was absolutely trust and I trusted

21 Des Traynor.

22 195 Q. I am sure of that?

23 A. And I would trust him again.

24 196 Q. I am sure of that. However, Mr. Lindsay what I am

25 suggesting to you is that it is extremely unlikely

26 that that sum, which was on deposit in the

27 Cayman Islands, did not earn interest?

28 A. I have absolutely -- I never got any indication that

29 it was. He was doing me a favour.

29



1 197 Q. What did you think? What did you think? What is

2 your thought now about this?

3 A. Well, I am wiser now than I...(INTERJECTION).

4 198 Q. What do you think now?

5 A. Well, if I had a ton of money to invest now I would

6 want interest on it but in those days he was doing

7 me a favour.

8 199 Q. Yes. If you would just have a look at another

9 letter there (Exhibit 5)(Same Handed)?

10 A. Yes.

11 200 Q. It is the 1992 letter and it is to Mr. Redmond in

12 The Irish Intercontinental Bank. It is from

13 "Ansbacher" here in Dublin, 42 Fitzwilliam Square.

14 It is a letter to him stating:

15 "Could you please arrange to let mehave for collection a U.S. Dollar

16 cheque for US$2,315.00 payable to RalphLindsay and debit the Sterling cost to

17 "Ansbacher"..."

18

19 That is your son Ralph?

20 A. Yes, that is one that was in college in America.

21 201 Q. This is in 1992 and you are drawing from the

22 "Ansbacher" account in IIB in this sum of $2,315?

23 A. Well, obviously it is from the same account in the

2 4 Cayman.

25 202 Q. Yes, yes. However, you have control of it and you

26 are directing that that sum be paid to you son?

27 A. Yes. All I ever had to do was just ring Mr. Traynor

28 and tell him that I wanted this money.

29 203 Q. Yes?

30



1 A. Its seem quite incredible now but I mean he would

2 even say, "What do you want it for?" you know.

3 204 Q. Yes. Did you do this frequently? Did you ask him

4 for money frequently?

5 A. No, infrequently.

6 205 Q. Infrequently?

7 A. As a matter of fact that sum that I sent, that I got

8 sent, to him when I was working in Bangladesh. I

9 was working for an American firm in Bangladesh

10 otherwise I wouldn't have got that money.

11 206 Q. Yes?

12 A. But as a matter of fact, you know, I certainly don't

13 remember that but I mean it is quite possible that

14 he wanted $2,000 for something or another.

15 207 Q. I want you to refer to one other document now,

16 Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 6)(Same Handed)?

17 A. Yes.

18 208 Q. You see that this again a ledger account of

19 Guinness & Mahon Limited. Do you see, on the

20 left-hand side, that it is an account "Amiens

21 Limited." Then on the 31st October 1986

22 "J.H. Lindsay - £1,000 debit"?

23 A. Sorry, what is Amiens?

24 209 Q. I will tell you now in a moment?

25 A. Yes.

26 210 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that from

27 Amiens Limited it would appear that £1,000 was paid

28 to you in 1986?

29 A. I never heard of Amiens.

31



1 211 Q. Yes. I will come to that in a moment. However, do

2 you recall receiving a payment yourself of £1,000,

3 organised by Mr. Traynor?

4 A. I don't.

5 212 Q. You could have though? I mean it is a long time

6 ago?

7 A. I could have.

8 213 Q. You could have?

9 A. Yes.

10 214 Q. What Amiens Limited was, Mr. Lindsay, was an account

11 which Des Traynor, Mr. Desmond Traynor, operated?

12 A. Yes.

13 215 Q. He used this account by transfering from

14 "Ansbacher's" account in Guinness & Mahon into

15 Amiens and paying clients of "Ansbacher" out of the

16 Amiens. That is why I am asking you about this?

17 A. Yes.

18 216 Q. This was a payment to you. This would appear to be

19 a payment to you organised by Mr. Traynor of £1,000?

20 A. If it is there it must have happened but I

21 can't...(INTERJECTION).

22 217 Q. You cannot remember?

23 A. I mean £1,000, it wouldn't be the sort of sum that I

24 would be going to Des Traynor really looking for,

2 5 you know.

26 218 Q. Yes?

27 A. Unless it was like in America where if I wanted

28 monies sent to Ralph or to my daughter and that.

29 219 Q. You would have obtained it?

32



1 A. Yes .

2 220 Q. And you would have sent it?

3 A. Yes .

4 221 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what we have been doing is breaking for

5 a short time for a coffee break?

6 A. Yes .

7

8

222 Q. What I would suggest is that we break for about ten

minutes now and you can have a cup of coffee if you

9 would like it?

10 A. Thank you.

11 223 Q. We have not got very much more to ask you. However,

12 if we could come back in ten minutes.

13 A. Yes .

14


16

17 224 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will

18 resume our interview now.

19 I understand, Mr. Hayes, that you would like to

20 clarify something with us?

21 MR. HAYES: Indeed if I may Inspector?

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.

23 MR. HAYES: Well, it is entirely our

24 fault because we have not

25 given you a written statement as we should have.


27 MR. HAYES: We will rectify that.


29 MR. HAYES: I only came into it



1 recently on that aspect.


3 MR. HAYES: However, from hearing

4 these questions -- I mean

5 I think there is one aspect that does need to be

6 clarified.


8 MR. HAYES: And it is this.


10 MR. HAYES: That, and I am authorized

11 by Mr. Lindsay to say

12 this, from the very start of his involvement with

13 Mr. Traynor and "Ansbacher" -- sorry, Guinness &

14 Mahon which became "Ansbacher" and so forth, that

15 was entirely a business affair, if I might put it as

16 such.


18 MR. HAYES: Up to the time when the

19 business ceased and

20 Mr. Lindsay moved to Bangladesh.


22 MR. HAYES: Unfortunately,

23 Mr. Lindsay's grasp of

24 dates is -- we will have to check records and try

25 and get the exact dates but all of the dealings with

26 Mr. Traynor were to do with his companies, which

27 were Super Ser...(INTERJECTION)

28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not want to interrupt

2 9 you Mr. Hayes.

34



1 MR. HAYES: Yes.

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have put

3 certain documents to

4 Mr. Lindsay which gives certain dates.

5 MR. HAYES: Yes.

6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not think it would be

7 appropriate for you to be

8 giving us evidence that your client may have told

9 you about. We have to go on the evidence that the

10 witness gives us.

11 MR. HAYES: Yes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And if he cannot remember

13 we take that into account.

14 MR. HAYES: Yes.

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, it would help us

16 if you could get a

17 detailed statement, if he could prepare a detailed

18 statement.

19 MR. HAYES: Yes, we will do that.

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. Also it would help

21 us if he would get the

22 documents from his accountants because we would

23 require all the documents that the accountants have.

24 MR. HAYES: Yes. As I say I only came

25 into this fairly recently

26 myself. I will attend to that.


2 8 MR. HAYES: What I am trying to

29 achieve just here is the

35



1 background.


3 MR. HAYES: I do not want to give

4 evidence or anything like

5 that.


7 MR. HAYES: And the statement will

8 make it clear that his

9 dealings with the bank were of -- I mean I have seen

10 the documents and I have seen reference to him

11 personally and, of course, but there does seem to be

12 a confusion about that. It is that when it refers

13 to him it should really have referred


15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what you say.

16 However, we have to decide

17 that.

18 MR. HAYES: Obviously, yes. I just

19 wanted to make that point.

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I know. However, we

21 have the evidence that he

22 personally had money, that he gave money to

23 Mr. Traynor. He says he thought that it was

24 in 1986. It would seem to be earlier. However, the

25 actual dates may or may not be significant, we have

26 to wait. However, what is absolutely clear is that

27 at some point in time he had a personal account in


29 A. Yes.

36



1 MR. HAYES: However, may I just say?


3 MR. HAYES: You see in the statement

4 we will make it clear,

5 that in relation to this American business, that he

6 has sort of explained to you, an account was needed

7 to service that business. It was said to

8 Mr. Lindsay by Mr. Traynor that they would open that

9 account in the Cayman Islands and that that is how

10 the account came to be opened for that. I think

11 this is a point which has not been conveyed because

12 we have not given a statement.

13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Hayes, I know that you

14 are trying to clarify the

15 situation.

16 MR. HAYES: Yes.

17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have to go on

18 the evidence that the

19 witness gives us.

2 0 MR. HAYES: Yes.

21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: At the moment I understand

22 that there was a

23 considerable amount of dealing with the company. We

24 have heard evidence that there was £400,000 lodged

25 by the company in the Cayman Islands.

2 6 MR. HAYES: Yes.

27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What we are concerned with

28 today is Mr. Lindsay's own

29 personal dealings with the company. At the moment

37



1 the evidence establishes that he had personal

2 dealings and that is what I am concerned with today.

3 MR. HAYES: If I could just

4 make one final point?


6 MR. HAYES: When the company ceased to

7 trade, at that point,

8 unfortunately I cannot remember the year,

9 Mr. Lindsay went to Bangladesh.


11 MR. HAYES: And it was at that point

12 that he will say, in this

13 statement, that the personal dealings commenced

14 between himself and...(INTERJECTION).

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: He has said that already.

16 MR. HAYES: Yes. Then for five years

17 he was resident in

18 Bangladesh.


20 MR. HAYES: And as he has explained

21 remitting the monies,

22 which he earned there to Mr. Traynor.


24 MR. HAYES: I thought that that needed

25 clarity.

26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well. You can

27 get the matter clarified.

2 8 MR. HAYES: Yes.

29 225 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: There are only a few more

38



1 questions that I want to

2 ask you Mr. Lindsay?

3 A. Yes.

4 226 Q. When the money, that I have referred to, was

5 transferred to your son in Barcelona?

6 A. Yes.

7 227 Q. Did that close the account in Cayman?

8 A. Yes.

9 228 Q. You had no further dealings with it?

10 A. No, further at all, no.

11 229 Q. There was a substantial sum of money in the account?

12 A. Yes.

13 230 Q. At that stage?

14 A. Yes.

15 231 Q. Had you deposited money in the account from time to

16 time?

17 A. Continuously I would think, almost shipment by

18 shipment.

19 232 Q. In your own personal account?

20 A. Yes.

21 233 Q. I am talking about?

22 A. Shipment by shipment of carpets from Bangladesh.

23 234 Q. In your own personal account, the money you gave to

24 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Traynor put it into the Cayman

25 account?

26 A. Yes.

27 235 Q. That lasted for some years?

28 A. Yes.

29 236 Q. You came back to Ireland then, is that right?

39



1 A. Yes, yes.

2 237 Q. What I wish to know is, did you thereafter deposit

3 money?

4 A. No, not a penny.

5 238 Q. All the money that was in the Cayman came from a?

6 A. Yes.

7 239 Q. From a source in Bangladesh?

8 A. From earnings in Bangladesh.

9 240 Q. In Bangladesh?

10 A. Yes.

11 241 Q. You will tell us the date on which that occurred?

12 You will find this out from your records?

13 A. Yes, I will. A date as regards from what year to

14 what year and so forth.

15 242 Q. Approximately what are we talking about?


17 243 Q. Are we talking about...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. Five years about.

19 244 Q. However, in the 1980s or 1970s?

20 A. No, no, I wasn't in -- it would have been in

21 the 1980s.

22 245 Q. In the 1980s. Perhaps, I might get it this way:

23 You set up Super Ser?

24 A. Yes. Incidently that was the name of the

25 Spanish company.

26 246 Q. Yes. Super Ser Limited?

27 A. Yes.

28 247 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?

29 A. Yes.

40



1 248 Q. Your partner in that, a 50% shareholder, with you

2 was Mr. Goosen?

3 A. Yes.

4 249 Q. When did that company cease to carry on trade?

5 A. 1982/1983, was it?

6 250 Q. Early 1980s you think?

7 A. Yes.

8 251 Q. Was it then that you went to Bangladesh?

9 A. Yes.

10 252 Q. When you returned after five years what business

11 activity did you undertake then?

12 A. Well, you see all the time in the background, from

13 my grandfather's time, we had a motorcycle shop

14 in Ship Street.

15 253 Q. Yes?

16 A. And all the time that was ticking over but I mean it

17 made virtually no money.

18 254 Q. Yes?

19 A. And I had a man looking after that while I was away.

20 255 Q. When you can back what did you do?

21 A. When I came back I went back into that.

22 256 Q. Yes?

23 A. That is it and then it packed up.

24 257 Q. What did you do then?

25 A. Then I retired. I mean that was -- I was getting on

26 then.

27 258 Q. When did Ardant Limited establish and your factory

28 establish making these heaters?

29 A. It would have been maybe 1980, would it? 1978 or

41



1 1980.

2 259 Q. How long did that company operate for?

3 A. Well, the main operation of that company quickly

4 became the America operation.

5 260 Q. Was there a separate company established in

6 the United States?

7 A. Yes.

8 2 61 Q. Do you remember the name of that company?

9 A. I know the heaters were called Shamrocks. Possibly

10 it was called Ardant.

11 262 Q. Would your accountants know?

12 A. Maybe, maybe. Certainly the man who was our

13 manager, the man who looked after it, he would know.

14 263 Q. What was his name?

15 A. John Grace.

16 264 Q. John Grace?

17 A. A further complication there. He spoke perfect

18 English. He came from Gibralter. His real name I

19 believe is Quan Gracias.

20 265 Q. Yes?

21 A. But everybody called him John Grace.

22 266 Q. Where is he now? Where is Mr. Grace now?

23 A. Well, I haven't spoken to him for a few years but he

24 lived in Norfolk, Virginia.

25 267 Q. In Virginia?

26 A. Yes.

27 268 Q. Very well then. If you would like to consider what

28 we were saying today?

29 A. Yes.

42



1 269 Q. And you could make a further statement then and

2 obtain all the documents that you can from them?

3 A. Yes.

4 270 Q. It is not a question of getting a selection of

5 documents, it is all the documents, that your

6 solicitors might have in relation to your own


8 A. Yes.

9 271 Q. There is one final matter that I want to ask you

10 about. It does appear that Super Ser, from what you

11 tell us, ceased to carry on business?

12 A. Yes.

13 272 Q. There are very substantial sums of money that

14 Super Ser apparently had on deposit?

15 A. Yes.

16 273 Q. $400,000 according to this document?

17 A. Yes.

18 274 Q. What became of the funds?

19 A. It disappeared like that in so much as when -- we

20 had endless orders. We took a half an hour on

21 American television with, you know, people talking

22 about the...(INTERJECTION).

23 275 Q. I am not talking about the American company. I am

24 talking about the Irish company?

25 A. Yes.

26 276 Q. That had very substantial sums on deposits?

27 A. Yes.

28 277 Q. Of $400,000 in "Ansbacher"?

29 A. Yes.

43



1 278 Q. In Cayman?

2 A. Yes.

3 279 Q. And substantial sums in London and in New York?

4 A. Yes.

5 280 Q. Or in America?

6 A. Yes.

7 281 Q. What became of the funds?

8 A. Yes, just -- may I just sort to get to that?

9 282 Q. Yes?

10 A. We had the orders. So, we got big loans from

11 Guinness & Mahon to service this American market.

12 We got big loans and then suddenly it was stopped

13 like that. It just stopped and Guinness & Mahon

14 took everything. They just took it like that.

15 283 Q. Then it was Super Ser that you say were servicing

16 the American market? The Irish company here?

17 A. Yes -- no, no, the money came from England.

18 284 Q. Yes?

19 A. Because they had the majority of the money.

20 285 Q. You are going to tell us when Super Ser ceased

21 trading? However, it does appear from the records

22 we have that Super Ser was a client of "Ansbacher"

23 and we would have to investigate Super Ser?

24 A. Yes.

25 286 Q. Apart from you is there anybody else that can assist

26 us in relation to Super Ser and its accounts and its

27 dealings with "Ansbacher"?

28 A. I don't even know -- I mean I am surprised when I

29 saw that there. I think that our (inaudible) with

44



1 Guinness & Mahon more or less coincided -- I

2 remember Mr. Traynor told me one day, he said, "I

3 have sold a bank in Cayman to a South African

4 company" which I haven't heard mentioned since.

5 287 Q. Yes?

6 A. And that, I think, was one of your last meetings.

7

8

288 Q. No. I am asking you about Super Ser, Mr. Lindsay.

What about Mr. Goosen? Where is he?

9 A. He lives in England.

10 289 Q. Yes?

11 A. He and I had a big disagreement about it. He didn't

12 want to go to America and events proved him right.

13 290 Q. Is there anybody else that can help us about the

14 Super Ser company apart from yourself? Did you have

15 accountants? Did Haughey Boland look after you?

16 A. Yes .

17 291 Q. Would you ask your accountants for any records that

18 they have in relation to Super Ser?

19 A. Yes .

20 292 Q. And in particular in relation to the deposits that

21 Super Ser had in the Cayman Islands?


23 293 Q. Very well then?

24 A. May I add?

25 294 Q. Yes?

26 A. It seems an incredible naive approach to things now

27 but I was trained as a fitter and turner and for me

28 to make something that people in America would buy

29 in colossal numbers was a dream.



1 295 Q. Yes?

2 A. And when it just shut down like that and

3 Guinness & Mahon took all the money I didn't even

4 want to bloody know whether we owed them money or

5 whether they owed us money.

6 296 Q. Yes. Very well. Thank you for your assistance

7 Mr. Lindsay. We can look at the situation again

8 then in the light of the documents?

9 A. Yes.

10 297 Q. That you sent on to us?

11 A. Yes. All right.

12 298 Q. Thank you.

13 A. Thank you.

14 MR. HAYES: Thank you.

15

16 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

46



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY

UNDER OATH

ON FRIDAY, 24TH MARCH 2000






Stenographer



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I n t e r n a t i o n a ls t Gro u p

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V^DHBIirKBIl MUUIKU

Company Limited

P.O. Box 887Grand CaymanwmrmiwomTalaptana 809 949 6655Tain CP 4305

FacaMo 809 949 5287

From: John A. Furze, Esq. Refno.

To: Irish Intercontinental Bani, Dublin Ireland

Attention: RONAN REEMOND, ESQ.

Fox No: 011-3531-6785-034Dais: 31-03-94

No. of Pages(indudk^Hione}:

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Should be pateA! if yon would airange die transfiscf St* £270,000 to:

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A L A N U N D S A Y N A s o c .

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MLd^jgyi jhMhtfon y h|Mjl|BMldhftaA iMllMllfllMiMltaMllVIVtMtlR

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Guernsey. Monaco. Swfewtanl e t e l Man, Bahamas, Cayman Mand Briish Wgh Wandf



Appendix XV (66) (l )( d )



Please reply to:

42 FltzwOIiani Square,Dublin 2.Tel: 765144/763063Fax: 612035

Ansbacher LimitedP.O. Box 117, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, Britiah West Indies

Telephone: (109) 949-8655 Telex: CP 430S

Facsimile (109) 949-7946 (109) 949-5267

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,Corporate Services, *Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Merrion Square,PVBfrlN 2.

13th October, 1992.

Dear Ronan,

Could you please arrange to let me have for collection a <}U.S. Dollar cheque for USS2,315.00 payable to Ralph Lindsay 'and debit the Sterling cost to Ansbacher Limited AccountNo.02/01087/81.

Yours sincerely,

• - - • • -

For ANSBACHER LIMITED Wr

JDT/AJW

A MEMBER or THE OiUACW U ^AHWA L TRU ^M ^ W CO H^m WITH OfDCOALSO LOCATED M THE lAMAMAJ MnW VMS* ISLAND*

GUERNSEY MOKACO AND SWrREMJUn

T



G O R E & G R I M E S

I ' W i \l MM I HI >1 Si sY|j 11 ll ll ! I 1 I ."i Ivi ! ">

' ; > • . ' -i •••!•> I \ \ ; I \ ' ' <!-•"• I - > 1 I'. i \

I M.im I--.-- v

KH\AB ' C/L04 /NSPML00296.17

PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

The Inspectors,Third Floor, Trident House,Blackrock,Co. Dublin 3 Decemb er, 2001

RE: HARRY LINDSAY AND SUPER SER LIMITED

Dear Sirs,

With reference to your letter of the 7 t h November, our Client was never informed bythe Post Office that these letters from you were available for his collection.

With reference to your " Preliminary Conclusions" , Mr. Lind say did ackno wledge in

the course of his examination before the Inspectors that he was indeed a Client ofAnsbacher and, as a Director of Super Ser Limited, that that Company also was aClient of Ansbacher. He would h owever l ike to mak e the point that at that t ime, therewas no suggestion of an y impropriety in being a customer of that Bank. It is only inrecent years that evidence has emerged in the public domain which, as you put i t inyour letter, " justifies f indings and/ or inferences that you m ay consid er to be adverseto your interests, good nam e and/ or reputation" .

Our Client was introduced to this Institution, in the manner he has described in hisevidence to you, by Mr. Traynor, and was not aware of anything at al l improper in hisconducting the business that he did conduct at that t ime with Mr. Traynor.

L00296/17/ 7102LE-1.LET



Appendix XV (67) Mr Joseph C layton Love Junior

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrJoseph Clayton Love Junior.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Clayton Love Jnr dated 8 March 2000.

b) Statement of Mr Clayton Love Jnr dated March 2000.

c) Supplemental statement of Mr Clayton Love Jnr of 24 May 2000.

d) Elizabeth Love trust deed dated 23 April 1971.

e) Letter of 7 December 2001 - JW O'Donovan Solicitors to the Inspectors.

f) Transcript of submissions made on behalf of Mr Love dated 20 M arch2002.



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.

UNDER OATH

ON WEDNESDAY, 8TH MARCH 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT

THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY BL

SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS

INTERVIEWEE: MR. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.

INSTRUCTED BY: MR. CORMAC 0'HANLON

J.W. 0'DONOVAN

53 SOUTH MALL

CORK



1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,

2 8TH MARCH 2000

3

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Love, we will start

5 our interview. I am

6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. We

7 are the Inspectors who have been appointed which by

8 the High Court. I should perhaps explain this is

9 not a Court, it is not a Tribunal, it is an

10 interview. If you have any problems about any

11 questions that we ask you that you would like to

12 take advice on, please let me know and you are at

13 liberty to ask your solicitor for advice.

14 Similarly, if your solicitor feels that there is any

15 question that he would like to discuss with you

16 before you answer, you are at liberty to discuss the

17 matter with your solicitor and we will adjourn to

18 allow you do so.

19 A. Okay.

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I will now ask our

21 solicitor to administer

22 the oath to you.

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3



1 MR. LOVE HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS,

2 BY THE INSPECTORS

3

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Love, yesterday we

5 received your statement.

6 We received no documents, although it was indicated

7 to us that perhaps you would be sending us

8 documents.

9 A. Judge, we are in the process of trying to get as

10 much information as we can from the Cayman to put

11 the document together. Maybe Cormac would best

12 answer that, can he?

13 2 Q. Strictly speaking no, we can go into it later. I

14 have to explain to you that it does appear as of

15 now, at any rate, that we may have to call you back

16 again, Mr. Love.

17 A. That is okay.

18 3 Q. You understand that. We only received your

19 statement yesterday, we have no documents in

20 relation to it, so it may well be necessary, first

21 of all, in relation to the documents that you may

22 furnish to us and secondly, in relation to the

23 documents that we may ask you for that a further

24 interview takes place.

25 A. Okay.

26 4 Q. Mr. Love, I want to begin by referring you to our

27 main long letter we sent to you and to the

28 information which we sought in it. It is a letter

29 of 21st December 1999. Do you have it there

4



1 (Exhibit 1)?

2 A. Yes.

3 5 Q. Would you look at Appendix C of that letter?

4 A. Yes.

5 6 Q. Do you see we ask for:

6 "... a full and detailed statement ofall the dealings which the Company had

7 with you, whether directly orindirectly. This should include

8 details of the manner in which serviceswere supplied by the Company, the dates

9 on which they were supplied, the namesof the person or persons who acted on

10 behalf of the Company in supplying themand the names of your professional

11 advisers who may have advised youconcerning the supply of the services.

12Without prejudice to the generality of

13 the foregoing, the statement shoulddeal with the following matters...."14

15 And we set them out.

16

17 Mr. Love, I have to draw your attention to the fact

18 that the matters on which we sought your assistance

19 are not included in your statement and I propose to

20 go through this letter now to ask you for further

21 assistance and to ask you for the documents which we

22 consider to be necessary. Would you turn over the

23 page to the Cayman Island Trust and Trust companies?

24 It reads:

25

26 "If you caused to be executed a deed of trust orother instrument in the Cayman Islands

27 or elsewhere whereby the Company orsome other person associated with it or

28 acting at its discretion was a trusteeor managed th trust and you transferred

29 money or other assets to the trustand/or if you caused to be established

5



1 in the Cayman Islands a body corporateto which you caused to be assigned

2 money or other assets and which weremanaged by the Company or some other

3 person associated with it or acting atits direction, you should

4(a) Furnish all correspondence relating

5 to the establishment of the Trust."

6 Mr. Love, would you tell me first of all what trusts

7 you established or caused to be established in the

8 Cayman Islands?

9 A. The trust that was established in the Cayman Islands

10 was the Elizabeth Love Trust. That is referred to

11 in my statement. The company associated with that

12 is Yale. I do not have a copy of the Trust Deed.

13 I have had difficulty getting information from the

14 Cayman but recently I asked my son to go out to the

15 Cayman and I spoke there to a Brian Bothwell before

16 he left and they have promised to give us

17 information arising out of that.

18 7 Q. What was the date when it was established?

19 A. The trust was established in the early 1970's, if my

20 recollection is correct.

21 8 Q. Can you not be a bit more specific?

22 A. No, I cannot. I don't have any information on it

23 myself.

24 9 Q. Mr. Love, you must have had professional advice, did

25 you not?

26 A. Yes, I took the advice of both Des Traynor at the

27 time and Michael McMahon in Haughey Boland.

28 10 Q. I just want to get this clear. Your firm or your

29 company, of course, would have had accountants. Did

6



1 you have your own personal accountants looking after

2 your tax affairs?

3 A. Michael McMahon of Haughey Boland.

4 11 Q. Was he separate from the accountants

5 .... (INTERJECTION)

6 A. From Des Traynor, yes, he was.

7 12 Q. That were dealing with your company.

8 A. But remember Des Traynor was a partner in

9 Haughey Boland before he left.

10 13 Q. I know that, and he was also on the Board of your

11 family company?

12 A. The family company had nothing to do with this,

13 Judge.

14 14 Q. I understand that, yes. Did Mr. McMahon advise you

15 about discretionary trusts?

16 A. The intention to set up a discretionary trust was

17 that obviously, being in the property business, one

18 has to realise it is a cyclical business and the

19 whole idea of the discretionary trust was to try and

20 establish some fund in which at least at that time I

21 was only a potential, if you will, beneficiary from

22 the trust and a borrower from it.

23 15 Q. Just listen to the question, we will go into that

24 later. Did you obtain advice on the setting up of

25 this company?

26 A. Whether the trust was proposed to me by

27 Desmond Traynor, I would have discussed it,

28 obviously, with Michael McMahon.

29 16 Q. Yes, that is what I would have thought. Did



1 Michael McMahon advise you fully in relation to it?

2 A. He said it was perfectly legal.

3 17 Q. Did he advise you, he did?

4 A. In what respect?

5 18 Q. Did he write to you?

6 A. Michael McMahon was not a very good writer.

7 19 Q. Did he write to you, then?

8 A. No, he didn't, not that I can recollect.

9 20 Q. You would have talked to him then about the legality

10 of the trust?

11 A. Yes, I would.

12 21 Q. Did you have a solicitor at the time?

13 A. I would have had a solicitor at the time but I

14 wouldn't have talked to him about tax matters.

15 22 Q. Who was the solicitor, then?

16 A. Charlie Hennessy of James W. 0'Donovan, Cork.

17 23 Q. So you did not discuss it with your solicitor?

18 A. No.

19 24 Q. That means that the legal documents establishing the

20 trust were not drawn up by your solicitor?

21 A. No, they were not.

22 25 Q. Who drew them up?

23 A. I presume they were drawn up in the Caymans.

24 26 Q. Why do you presume that?

25 A. Des Traynor handled all of these affairs for me and

26 I had absolute faith in him, to be honest with you.

27 He organised all that for me, or for my wife,

28 rather, and the family. The same would have applied

29 for the Channel Island Trust.

8



1 27 Q. You must have signed a document, or your wife must

2 have signed a document?

3 A. We haven't got that in our possession.

4 28 Q. Just take it in stages.

5 A. No, I appreciate what you are saying.

6 29 Q. My question is did your wife or yourself sign a

7 document?

8 A. I did not sign a document.

9 30 Q. Did your wife?

10 A. I don't think she did. She says she has no

11 recollection of it.

12 31 Q. That means there has been no Trust Deed signed,

13 then?

14 A. I don't know, Judge. I wish I did know.

15 32 Q. Could it have been that somebody else signed the

16 Trust Deed?

17 A. It is possible but I don't know.

18 33 Q. When you say it is possible, I am sure you have

19 heard all the evidence that has been in the public

20 domain about nominee accountants being appointed to

21 execute these documents. Were you told that?

22 A. It is possible that Des Traynor might have done it

23 on my behalf but I don't know, Judge.

24 34 Q. Were you told that one of the ways of dealing with

25 this situation of establishing trusts would be to

26 have the Trust Deed executed by, say, an accountant?

27 A. I think I was at the time, yes, I think I was.

28 35 Q. So if neither your wife or you signed a document and

29 a Trust Deed was executed, it would appear as if it

9



1 was executed by a person in the Cayman Islands?

2 A. I imagine so, Judge, yes.

3 36 Q. Why was that, do you think?

4 A. Because of the advice of Des Traynor.

5 37 Q. What advice did he give you?

6 A. To create the trust in the Cayman Islands.

7 38 Q. The accountant in the Cayman Islands would not have

8 had any money so you had to transfer or your wife

9 had to transfer funds?

10 A. We transferred money, as I said in my statement,

11 from the Channel Island Trust to the Cayman Islands.

12 39 Q. I just want to come to that in a moment. The

13 situation was that you must have been informed that

14 a trust had been established. Were you informed who

15 the trustees were?

16 A. I have no recollection of it at this point in time,

17 Judge.

18 40 Q. Yes, but who do you think were the trustees now?

19 A. Who are the trustees now?

20 41 Q. Yes.

21 A. That is something we have asked the bank for, or

22 Clayton has asked the bank for, and they are to come

23 back to us on that.

24 42 Q. Who do you think are the trustees?

25 A. I don't know, Judge.

26 43 Q. It has been 30 years now and you do not know who the

27 trustees are?

28 A. No, I don't, Judge.

29 44 Q. Who do you think they were?

10



1 A. I presume some personnel within the bank.

2 45 Q. In the bank?

3 A. I presume, but I am not sure.

4 46 Q. Could it have been the bank itself is trustee?

5 A. I do not know, Judge.

6 47 Q. Did you ever see a copy of the trust?

7 A. No, I never did.

8 48 Q. Do you know how the trust operated? Were you told

9 how the trust would operate and what the trustees

10 would do?

11 A. I don't understand your question.

12 49 Q. Sorry, I will make it clearer. You told me about

13 Yale Securities. Tell me what Mr. Traynor told you

14 about Yale Securities?

15 A. That it was part and parcel of the trust.

16 50 Q. Tell me what he told you.

17 A. That it was a company within the Cayman Islands as

18 part and parcel of the trust.

19 51 Q. What does part and parcel mean?

20 A. It handled the money aspect.

21 52 Q. It handled the money, yes. Did he tell you that in

22 fact the trustees would own the shares in this

23 company?

24 A. I don't recollect, Judge.

25 53 Q. They would handle the money?

26 A. Yes.

27 54 Q. Would that mean that the money would be transferred

28 to them?

29 A. I don't know how the money was transferred to them

11



1 but I would get annual statements from

2 Desmond Traynor which he would show me and that

3 would be it, really.

4 55 Q. You got statements from Des Traynor?

5 A. He would just give me a blank statement, like a

6 statement of affairs, but I never kept a copy.

7 56 Q. Was the bank statement ....(INTERJECTION)

8 A. It wasn't a bank statement, it would have been a

9 statement of affairs. There was only one bank

10 statement that I have in my possession which we will

11 give you a copy of in due course, which is way back

12 in 1970, I think, early 1970's. That was from

13 Guinness Mahon in Cayman.

14 57 Q. The statement of affairs that Mr. Traynor gave you,

15 was this on a regular basis?

16 A. Once a year at most.

17 58 Q. Was this a statement of affairs of the trust or of

18 the company?

19 A. It would be of the company, I believe.

20 59 Q. Of the company?

21 A. Yes, which as far as I was concerned was part and

22 parcel of the trust.

23 60 Q. Did he ever give you any other documents about the

24 company, for example, about any of its deposits, any

25 of its funds?

26 A. No.

27 61Q.

Only a statement of affairs?

28 A. Just that, yes. The only other document I have, as

29 I said to you, Judge, is ones early in 1970 which

12



1 shows a bank account.

2 62 Q. Where is the bank?

3 A. In Cayman.

4 63 Q. Does it show a deposit?

5 A. It does, yes.

6 64 Q. It names the bank?

7 A. It names the bank, it names Yale and it names the

8 trust, I think.

9 65 Q. So what you have is you have Yale being shown as a

10 depositor in the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Bank?

11 A. Correct.

12 66 Q. Is that where the money was deposited during the

13 life of the trust, do you think?

14 A. Sorry, Judge?

15 67 Q. Do you think the money was deposited in the Guinness

16 Mahon Cayman Trust Bank throughout the life of the

17 trust?

18 A. Yes.

19 68 Q. The trustees never sought to invest the money in

20 securities or anything like this, it was always on

21 deposit?

22 A. On deposit, yes. There was one investment made in

23 America in property but it wasn't very successful.

24 69 Q. Is that the Lyndon one?

25 A. The Lyndon one, yes.

26 70 Q. We will come to that later. Apart from Yale

27 Securities, was there another company?

28 A. Apart from Yale Securities, I think there was

29 another company in the early days, I think it was

13



1 Orchard but I can't remember, Judge. It is on the

2 statement or included in the statement.

3 71 Q. What was Orchard?

4 A. It was part and parcel of the set-up that Des made

5 but then it was disbanded and Yale became the

6 company.

7 72 Q. Can you not be a bit more explicit?

8 A. I cannot, Judge. I mean, it is 30 years ago.

9 73 Q. I know that. Orchard was apparently part of the

10 scheme that Mr. Traynor had put together for you?

11 A. Yes.

12 74 Q. Did you get any statements?

13 A. No. No, I never received a statement from Orchard.

14 75 Q. The funds that were paid into this trust, they came,

15 you say, from the Channel Islands; is that right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 76 Q. Tell me about that.

18 A. Guinness Mahon and I were partners in property

19 ventures in the UK and the Clayton Love Trust was

20 set up for that purpose in the Channel Islands.

21 77 Q. Just take it more slowly. The money which went

22 into Cayman came from the Channel Island trust?

23 A. Yes.

24 78 Q. Just tell me about the establishment of that trust?

25 A. There was a company set up to do property

26 developments, with myself and Guinness Mahon as

27 partners.


29 A. Wildwood Investments.

14



1 80 Q. Where was that incorporated?

2 A. In the Channel Islands.

3 81 Q. That was a limited company?

4 A. Yes.

5 82 Q. It was a joint venture between you and Guinness

6 Mahon?

7 A. Correct.

8 83 Q. When was a trust established?

9 A. At the same time.

10 84 Q. Was there a Trust Deed executed?

11 A. Again, I have no recollection of seeing it, judge.

12 85 Q. Tell me about the arrangement that Mr. Traynor made

13 in relation to it?

14 A. The trust was set up in the Channel Islands.

15 86 Q. Just tell me about what Mr. Traynor advised you?

16 A. I was advised at the time, I think, that I should

17 set up this trust in the Channel Islands I think for

18 holding the shares in Wildwood, I think, I am not

19 sure or my share of the equity in Wildwood, and that

20 Wildwood would conduct the business of property in

21 the UK.

22 87 Q. When was that? What year was that?

23 A. The early 1970's, I think, Judge. Mid 1970's or

24 early 1970's, I would say.

25 88 Q. It should be possible to be more precise because

26 this was a venture undertaken between you and

27 Guinness Mahon, was it not, a joint venture?

28 A. Yes.

29 89 Q. When did that start?

15



1 A. My recollection is around about 1973 or 1974 but I

2 cannot be dead certain.

3 90 Q. Yes, it is hard to be accurate but I will require

4 you to be much more accurate, Mr. Love, and make

5 enquiries. You can easily find out from when the

6 company was incorporated. For example, you will be

7

8

able to get me the Trust Deed, I am sure. In 1973

or 1974 then, a joint venture was undertaken in

9 London?

10 A. That's correct, yes, London Properties.

11 91 Q. Is this the one that is referred to in your

12 statement that went wrong?

13 A. Yes .

14 92 Q. Wildwood Investments was set up and at the same time

15 a Trust Deed was executed by which the trust would

16 hold your share in Wildwood?

17 A. That's correct, that is my understanding.

18 93 Q. What share was that?

19 A. 60%.

20 94 Q. The Trust Deed must have been prepared by someone

21 and signed by someone, do you know?

22 A. I don't know. I don't have a copy of it, as I said

23 to you.

24 95 Q. I am not asking you about a copy, I am asking you

25 who executed it?

26 A. I imagine it was dealt with by Guinness Mahon Jersey

27 Trust.

28 96 Q. As the previous one you have mentioned?

29 A. I think so.



1 97 Q. So that a nominee was used as the settlor of the

2 trust?

3 A. I would imagine so.

4 98 Q. And you signed nothing?

5 A. I certainly have no recollection of signing

6 anything, Judge.

7 99 Q. Did you ever see the Trust Deed?

8 A. I have no recollection of ever seeing the Trust

9 Deed.

10 100 Q. Do you know what company was employed to draft

11 ....(INTERJECTION)


13 101 Q. There were subsidiaries of Guinness Mahon in the

14 Cayman Islands, were there not?

15 A. Guinness Mahon Bank, yes.

16 102 Q. Were they in existence at the time, do you know?

17 A. Of?

18 103 Q. When this was set up, when Wildwood Investments



21 104 Q. Sorry, I meant Channel Islands. Were there not

22 subsidiaries established in the Channel Islands?

23 A. It was Guinness Mahon Jersey Trust.

24 105 Q. Do you think it is likely that Guinness Mahon Jersey

25 Trust were the trustees of this?

26 A. I would imagine so.

27 106 Q. Had you any correspondence relating to the

28 establishment of this trust?

29 A. If I did, Judge, I don't have it now.

17



1 107 Q. Would it have been with Mr. Traynor?

2 A. It would have been with Mr. Traynor, yes.

3 108 Q. Then the best of your recollection is that this

4 trust was established sometime in 1973/74 and its

5 assets would be your 60% shareholding in Wildwood

6 Investments?

7 A. Yes.

8 109 Q. The development took place, we understand, and it

9 was financially unsuccessful?

10 A. No, the development never took place. We bought the

11 properties, put the site together and had the

12 development ready to go ahead and lost the tenant.

13 110 Q. How long did that take?

14 A. Two or three years.

15 111 Q. That gets us to 1976/77?

16 A. 1977/78.

17 112 Q. From this venture, was there £75,000 to £80,000


19 A. Yes, there were surplus properties.

20 113 Q. This was in Wildwood Investments Company Limited?

21 A. It would have come out of that, yes.

22 114 Q. To the shareholders?

23 A. Yes.

24 115 Q. To the shareholders and then to the trustees?

25 A. Exactly.

26 116 Q. This would have been about 1977/78?

27 A. Yes.

28 117 Q. That means, Mr. Love, that the payment to your

29 wife's trust would not be until then?

18



1 A. That is one thing that struck me now, Judge, and I

2 do not know how that occurred if the trust was set

3 up in the early 1970's.

4 118 Q. Yes, exactly. You are wrong, are you not Mr. Love,

5 you must be wrong?

6 A. Well, I can't explain it to you otherwise, Judge.

7 119 Q. Do you know when Yale Securities was incorporated?

8 A. No, I don't, Judge.

9 120 Q. Our investigations indicate that it was established

10 in March 1971?

11 A. I would think that would be about right, yes.

12 121 Q. How did it have funds then if they did not come from

13 your Channel Island trust?


15 122 Q. Aren't you mistaken in your recollection?

16 A. I will check on it, Judge.

17 123 Q. The trusts that you have told us about were the ones

18 that your wife established in 1971, you say. When

19 you say your wife established them

20 ....(INTERJECTION).

21 A. They were established in her name, Judge.

22 124 Q. It would appear as if the name of the settlor was an

23 accountant in the Cayman Islands.

24 A. Yes.

25 125 Q. What I wonder is can you remember who the

26 beneficiaries of the discretionary trust were?

27 A. It would be the family, I presume, my family.

28 126 Q. Can you remember?

29 A. Yes, I think it was my family, that is what it was

19



1 set up for.

2 127 Q. Can you remember who was named as a beneficiary?

3 A. I don't remember. My children, I presume, my wife

4 and my children. I was a potential beneficiary of

5 it too obviously. It was set up for the family.

6 128 Q. You were a potential beneficiary of it?

7 A. Yes, I was, and a borrower from it subsequently.

8 129 Q. Leave that aside for the moment. The beneficiaries

9 of this trust established in 1971 was yourself, your

10 wife and your children?

11 A. Yes, that is my recollection, yes, Judge.

12 130 Q. Why do you call it your wife's trust?

13 A. Because Des Traynor advised me to do it in her name.

14 131 Q. The name of the trust was what?

15 A. The Elizabeth Love Trust.

16 132 Q. The beneficiaries of the trust were yourself, your

17 wife and your children?

18 A. I think I was a beneficiary, yes. It certainly was

19 intended that they would be.

20 133 Q. That is one trust. The other trust that was

21 established was in the Channel Islands, do you

22 remember the name of that?

23 A. The Clayton Love CI Trust.

24 134 Q. Channel Island Trust?

25 A. Yes.

26 135 Q. Who were the beneficiaries in that?

27 A. I imagine they would have been the same.

28 136 Q. The same?

29 A. I imagine, but I am not sure, Judge.

20



1 137 Q. Your wife, yourself and your children?

2 A. I imagine, but it could well be just myself

3 exclusively because as a shareholder that might have

4 been the arrangement.

5 138 Q. It would not have been a discretionary trust if you

6 were the only beneficiary?

7 A. That is true, that is true.

8 139 Q. Have you made any effort to try to get a hold of

9 this trust?

10 A. We are making efforts to get hold of it.

11 140 Q. Do you know what efforts are you making?

12 A. I am making contact with the people in the Channel

13 Islands.

14 141 Q. Who?

15 A. With Guinness Mahon and their successors, and so far

16 been unsuccessful.

17 142 Q. Have you written to them?

18 A. Yes.

19 143 Q. Over the time you must have met some of the people

20 from the Channel Islands?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 144 Q. Did you not?

23 A. No.

24 145 Q. There was a Mr. Lipscombe.

25 A. I knew of him but I never met him.

26 146 Q. He was one of the persons involved in managing the

27 trust, was he not?

28 A. Yes, as I understand it, yes. Judge, I would like

29 to say the whole of the Channel Islands Wildwood

21



1 thing was a very bad memory for me. It was

2 something I put aside and forgot about because I had

3 to extract myself from a very serious position. If

4 I am a bit sort of not memorising, I actually shut

5 it all out of my mind.

6 147 Q. This is why it is so important to get the documents.

7 A. Yes, I agree, Judge.

8 148 Q. I am surprised that there are difficulties in

9 getting the documents. Those are two trusts that

10 you told us that you established. Are there any

11 others ?

12 A. No, no others, Judge.

13 149 Q. I think you are not correct there because you did

14 tell us in your statement about another trust,

15 Lynbrett?

16 A. Yes, Lynbrett, that was a trust set up between five

17 of us to do with property dealings in North America.

18 150 Q. Why I am asking you about it is because it does

19 appear that a trust document was in fact drawn up,

20 was it not?

21 A. I don't ever recollect seeing one but I might have,

22 Judge.

23 151 Q. It does appear that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was

24 the trustee named?

25 A. Yes, in the Lynbrett Trust, yes.

26 152 Q. Is that right?

27 A. I think so, yes, Judge.

28 153 Q. It does appear that the Lynbrett Trust was to take

29 shares in five companies, was that the arrangement?

22



1 A. I am lost, Judge.

2 154 Q. Perhaps you will tell me what you recollect was the

3 arrangement.

4 A. We got involved in property deals in Arizona and as

5 I understood the trust took advanced monies to those

6 deals -- no, I am mistaken now. The monies we put

7

8

up in the Lynbrett Trust were part of the equity

towards these deals and the money was borrowed from

9 AIB in New York and I think the ratio was something

10 like 80:20, 20% equity and 80% borrowing if I am

11 correct. I am not sure who else was involved in the

12 Lynbrett Trust because there were another four

13 people involved in that.

14 155 Q. You are saying you are not sure.

15 A. No, I am not sure.

16 156 Q. Don't you know that Mr. Hugh Coveney was involved?

17 A. He was definitely, yes.

18 157 Q. You are sure of him?

19 A. Very much so.

20 158 Q. It is in the public domain what Mr. Coveney's role

21 in this was.

22 A. Yes .

23 159 Q. Mr. Coveney was a close personal friend of yours, I

24 think.

25 A. He was, yes.

26 160 Q. He was involved in this venture and Guinness Mahon

27 Cayman Trust was the trustee.

28 A. Yes, I think so.

29 161 Q. I am just pointing this out to you because of the

23



1 statement that you had made in your written

2 statement that Mr. Coveney never had any involvement

3 to your knowledge with the Guinness Mahon Cayman

4 Trust, he had involvement?

5 A. No, in that context he was, yes, Judge.

6 162 Q. You were not aware of his other ....(INTERJECTION).

7

8

A. I was not aware of the other context and that is

what I am referring you to there.

9 163 Q. You knew Mr. Coveney was involved in this?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 164 Q. Because he was one of your partners?

12 A. Correct.

13 165 Q. Not otherwise. Did you know that the Lynbrett Trust

14 in fact lodged money here?

15 A. Judge, I don't think I said that I wasn't aware that

16 Mr. Coveney was a member of the trust.

17 166 Q. No, no, you did not.

18 A. I didn't say that.

19 167 Q. Maybe I am wrong in paraphrasing what you said. Did

20 you know that Lynbrett Trust was in fact entitled to

21 one of these sub-accounts that Guinness Mahon Cayman

22 Trust Limited had in Guinness & Mahon here in

23 Dublin?

24 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

25 168 Q. Just have a look at this photostat. This is a

26 Guinness Mahon Limited ledger statement. It shows

27 the account is in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman

28 Trust Limited and it shows credits to Lynbrett of

29 £4,500 and Lynbrett £1,756.67 in May 1986. You know



1 about the pooled accounts which Guinness Mahon

2 Cayman Trust had, you know about this; do you not?

3 A. Yes, I know about it from the papers.

4 169 Q. You know from the papers that there was a pooled

5 account and there were a number of coded

6 sub-accounts?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 170 Q. Do you know did you know that Lynbrett was one of

9 the sub ....(INTERJECTION).

10 A. No, I was not aware of that. This is the first I

11 know of that.

12 171 Q. I want to refer you to a letter in relation to the

13 deposits. I want you to look at this letter, it is

14 a letter of 21st June 1977 and it is addressed to

15 Mr. Furze and signed by Mr. Traynor and headed

16 "Re Yale Securities Limited." It says:

17 "Dear John

18 At the present time we have twohypothecation agreements re M. and M.l.

19 against advances in Dublin for LilySecurities and Taurus Securities.

20 Arising out of discussions it has now21 been agreed for interest purposes only

M. and M.I deposits will be offset22 against Lily and Taurus but that the

funds will be actually hypothecated to23 GMCT re advances by Guinness & Mahon to

Clayton Love Jnr. on two loan accounts24 one for £25,000, one for £13,000.

25 Would you please let me have newagreements on these lines."

26

27 Can you explain that to me, Mr. Love?

28 A. Lily and Taurus were companies that I used for

2 9 property development.

25



1 172 Q. Sorry, just tell me what they were.

2 A. I think Lily had to do with a property in Adelaide

3 Road, I think, I am not too sure.

4 173 Q. Lily Securities Limited, it was registered in

5 Ireland?

6 A. Yes, and Taurus the same way.

7 174 Q. These were property companies of yours?

8 A. Yes.

9 175 Q. You were the beneficial owner of the company?

10 A. Yes.

11 176 Q. It would appear that Guinness & Mahon were lending

12 money to these companies?

13 A. Yes.

14 177 Q."For interest purposes only the M. and

15 M.I. deposits will be offset againstLily."

16

17 What are the M. and M.I. deposits?

18 A. The f M f was the Yale account and I don't know what

19 Ml is.

20 178 Q. It appears it must have been one of your accounts?


22 179 Q. Do not know what Ml was?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 180 Q. Could it have been a way of identifying what we have

25 come to know as blocked accounts when part of an

26 account was being used as security for a loan, that

27 was a portion of the main accounts, or the M account

28 in this case, created and called an Ml account and

29 was used as a blocked account to indicate that that

26



1 portion of the deposit was used as security for a

2 loan?


4 181 Q. Did you have other loans from Guinness & Mahon at

5 this time?

6 A. In 1977?

7 182 Q. In 1977.

8 A. I certainly had loans to Wilton Securities in 1977

9 from Guinness & Mahon, of that I am pretty certain.

10 I might have had loans to Douglas Developments at

11 the time, I am not sure.

12 183 Q. Do you know why the account was a coded account?

13 A. I do not know, Judge.

14 184 Q. You do not know?

15 A. No, I don't, no.

16 185 Q. It seemed to be the account of Yale Securities

17 Limited, is that right?

18 A. That's right.

19 186 Q. It seems to have been a coded account?

20 A. Yes.

21 187 Q. Your understanding was that it was an account in the

22 Cayman Islands?

23 A. I would definitely understand that, yes, Judge.

24 188 Q. The funds of Yale Securities Limited were being used

25 then as security for loans made to you?

26 A. That would appear on the letter, yes.

27 189 Q. I want you to look at some other documents. The

28 first document I want to show you is a letter of

29 2nd October 1991 from Joan Williams to Mr. Logan in

27



1 the Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 4).

2 "Dear Garrett

3

4

5

Could you please arrange to lodge theenclosed draft for Stg.£21,250.00 tocredit of Ansbacher Limited account,No. 02/01087/81."

6 The account number is given. Joan Williams is

7

8

Mr. Traynor's secretary and that is arranging to

lodge a sterling draft of £21,250 in the Ansbacher

9 main account, is that not right?

10 A. Yes .

11 190 Q. The information which we have obtained is that that

12 was a draft purchased by Lyndon Properties and the

13 funds used to purchase the draft were debited to the

14 current account of Lyndon Properties in November

15 1991. We will just show you the next document,

16 (Exhibit 5) the photostat is not very clear but it

17 is clear it is a draft. Can you explain to me how

18 Lyndon Properties were lodging money into the main

19 account in IIB of Ansbacher?

20 A. I cannot, Judge. I have never seen this before.

21 191 Q. They were though.

22 A. From the evidence, yes.

23 192 Q. There is a further document, if you look down to a

24 letter from Joan Williams of 17th December 1991

25 (Exhibit 6), Joan Williams is asking Mr. Logan to

26 lodge enclosed draft for £27,750stg. to Ansbacher

27 account. Again the information which we have

28 obtained from the Bank of Ireland is that the draft

29 was purchased by Lyndon Properties of 3 Inns Quay,

28



1 Dublin. The funds used to purchase the draft were

2 debited from the current account of Lyndon

3 Properties on 16th December 1991, again this is a

4 lodgment to the Ansbacher account. Lyndon

5 properties is your company?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 193 Q. It is 100% owned by you?

8 A. Yes .

9 194 Q. Are you not able to explain to me how it came about

10 that ....(INTERJECTION).

11 A. I have to go back and check the records.

12 195 Q. Would you check?

13 A. Yes, I will of course, two payments.

14 196 Q. Would you turn to another document of 27th May 1994

15 and this is from Joan Williams to Mr. Redmond in the

16 Irish Intercontinental Bank and it states:

17 "Could you please arrange to lodge the

enclosed sterling cheque for Stg.18

1 Q

£30,000 to C.I.B.T.C. account..."

20 It is the same numbered account. It is the main

21 account, is it not? The cheque is underneath there

22 on the photostat and it is a C&E Love cheque, that

23 is you and your wife, a personal cheque?

24 A. Correct.

25 197 Q. This would appear to be a lodgment to the Ansbacher

26 account of £30,000 made by you?

27 A. Yes .

28 198 Q. Can you explain that?

29 A. I can't, Judge.



1 199 Q. It does appear that you were using the Ansbacher

2 account as an account?

3 A. No, I was not, Judge. I am sure there is a rational

4 explanation for these.

5 200 Q. Perhaps but at the moment it looks as if monies were

6 being paid in by your company and by yourself into

7 this account, is that not so?

8 A. Certainly on that evidence, yes.

9 201 Q. There is another document, the letter of 7th June

10 1994 from Ms. Williams to Mr. Redmond enclosing a

11 sterling cheque of £7,000 to the same account on one

12 of your wife's personal cheques, that is another

13 lodgment?

14 A. Yes, £7,000, yes.

15 MR. O'HANLON: Judge, would you give us a

16 moment?

17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, would you like to go

18 to the consultation room?

19 MR. O'HANLON: Yes, just for a moment.

20

21

22 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)

23

2 4 MR. O'HANLON: Thank you.

25 202 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: These cheques were sent on

26 by Joan Williams,

27 Mr. Traynor's secretary. Would you have handed

28 these cheques to Ms. Williams or would you have

29 written and posted them or were you in the habit of

30



1 giving cheques to Mr. Traynor?

2 A. I imagine the first cheques, the cheques paid by

3 Lyndon to IIB, is it? They are drafts to IIB, I

4 suspect they have something to do with the loan

5 arrangements that Mr. Traynor was making for me and

6 I will check that. I suspect that these, and I am

7

8

not certain now, could be repayments of loans that

Mr. Traynor had advanced to me.

9 203 Q. That Mr. Traynor had advanced to you?

10 A. Yes .

11 204 Q. Did you obtain loans from Mr. Traynor?

12 A. If I wanted cash for things like, he certainly

13 would, yes.

14 205 Q. Would you have any records of these loans?

15 A. No, they would be very small anyway, as you can see.

16 On a personal basis he would certainly be helpful to

17 me. I don't know, Judge, what they were for but I

18 will try and check.

19 206 Q. If they were loans, were these personal loans from

20 Mr. Traynor to you?

21 A. He would do that for me, yes.

22 207 Q. These cheques are not made payable to Mr. Traynor?

23 A. No, but maybe that is the way he asked for the

24 repayment to be made, I don't know.

25 208 Q. Very well, you will try and check it out.

26 A. I will, and these two surprised me to be honest with

27 you.

28 209 Q. I want to come to this substantial loan by IIB and I

29 want to show you a number of documents. The first

31



2

one is page 31A and is an Intercontinental Bank

internal memo. This is an internal memo of the

3 Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 9) and I want your

4 comments on it. It is from Liam Dolan and the

5 subject is Lyndon Properties and it is dated 29th

6 November 1990. He states:

7 "I spoke to Des Traynor following ourprevious meeting. I confirmed with him

8 and that we saw no problem in settingup the facility for Lyndon Properties

9 on the basis of a back-to-back loan of£2 million at a margin of 1%. I told

10 him that we would envisage taking hisdeposit into Credit Bank London as this

11 is required to be in anotherj urisdiction."

12

13 Mr. Traynor obviously wanted it in another

14 jurisdiction, not in Ireland; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 210 Q. It refers to a margin of 1%, do you know what that

17 is?

18 A. I imagine that is the fee that would have to be paid

19 for the back to back loan.

20 211 Q. There would be interest paid on the deposit and

21 interest paid on the loan, and the margin was 1%?

22 A. I imagine so, yes.

23 212 Q."He was happy with that and asked that

24 we should send him out the formsnecessary. We will have Sam Field

25 Corbett who looks after the affairs ofthis company contact us in regard to

26 details of the loan.

27 We should proceed to get creditapproval for this transaction and we

28 also need to agree a margin for KBLondon."

29

32



1 Would you just turn to the next document which is a

2 facility letter of 28th January 1991 (Exhibit 10).

3 It is addressed to your company and for the

4 attention of Mr. Field-Corbett and it sets out the

5 nature of the facilities, the drawdown date. If you

6 turn to paragraph 5 on the next page:

7 "Security

8

9

10

11

Any and all indebtedness or liabilityof the Borrower to IIB is to be securedby the guarantee of Mr. Clayton Loveand such other security in such form asshall be required by IIB to itsabsolute discretion from time to time."

12 A. That's right.

13 213 Q. There is no mention in that letter that the security

14 was to be back to back?

15 A. No.

16 214 Q. Do you know that in fact it was deliberately kept

17 out of the letter?

18 A. I am not sure but I know it was back to back, Judge.

19 215 Q. You are not sure it was deliberately kept out?

20 A. No.

21 216 Q. Could it have been deliberately kept out?

22 A. I don't know, Judge. I have signed that letter

23 anyway, so I have seen that letter before.

24 217 Q. I want to refer you now to the next document which

25 is another IIB credit application of 30th November

26 1990 and it refers to the description of the credit

27 lines cash back demand facilities, the initial

28 balance and the interest to be drawn up. Then over

29 the next page it guarantees a collateral charge on

33



1 deposit place with KB London at a minimum (Exhibit

2 11) •

3 A. Yes .

4 218 Q. So there is no doubt that it was back to back, it

5 was the security of the deposit that was the main

6 security that was being granted?

7 A. Yes .

8 219 Q. If you look at the last page, page 4, the summary of

9 the purpose was the back to back facility to Lyndon

10 properties. "Major risk. Borrowers negative net

11 worth. Accounts qualified." I will come to that

12 later but in fact your negative net worth was the

13 serious financial position your company was in at

14 the time?

15 A. At that time, yes.

16 220 Q. Your accounts were qualified?

17 A. Correct.

18 221 Q. Will you turn over the page to:

19

20

"The facility is fully secured by atleast the amount placed with KB

London."

21

22 A. Yes .

23

24

25

222 Q."Due to cash back nature of thistransaction, the provision of thisfacility is recommended."

26 A. Yes .

27 223Q.

The next document we need not delay on it, just to

28 look at it for information purposes. It is the

29 guarantee by Credit Bank which was part of the

34



1 arrangement, Credit Bank was to guarantee the loan

2 (Exhibit 12). Then if you look at the next document

3 there is a counter indemnity from Ansbacher and

4 there is a (Exhibit 13) mortgage of the monies

5 outstanding which we need not bother about. There

6 is a side letter from the Credit Bank which we need

7 not bother about for present purposes. Would you

8 just look at a letter of 26th February 1991 from

9 Mr. Traynor transferring the £2 million in this

10 company's new deposit account which just opened and

11 debiting the Ansbacher Limited call deposit account.

12 The £2 million was sent from the Ansbacher account

13 in IIB in Dublin to the Credit Bank in London

14 (Exhibit 14).

15

16 Now I want to come to documents that were generated

17 in 1993 arising from a new loan structure. Would

18 you just look at a memorandum from Claire Gannon,

19 the subject being Lyndon Properties and it refers to

20 the previous securities structure which we have just

21 mentioned and then a proposed new securities

22 structure.

23 "A new security arrangement has beenapproved; (credit application no. 7005)

24 where my CIBT places GBPI 1.45 with KBLondon as trustee for the beneficial

25 owner of the deposit. (YaleSecurities) CIBT therefore executes the

26 security documents as trustee and notin its own personal capacity and CIBT's

27 liability is limited to, the creditbalance in the deposit account. This

28 is in order that the transaction is offbalance sheet for CIBT."

29

35



1 For reasons which CIBT thought were good, the

2 security was being changed and instead they were

3 lodging it as trustee, is that correct?

4 A. That is what the document says.

5 224 Q. It states that the beneficial owner of the deposit

6 is Yale Securities, do you accept that?

7 A. I do, yes.

8 225 Q. That this deposit in the name of Ansbacher, that

9 Yale Securities was the beneficiary?

10 A. As part of the Elizabeth Love Trust.

11 226 Q. Yes, I am just looking at what is stated in this,

12 Yale Securities is a separate company

13 ....(INTERJECTION).

14 A. In responding to you, Judge, I do not want you to

15 think that I am taking Yale separate from the

16 Elizabeth Love Trust, they are part and parcel of

17 the same being, if I may use that word.

18 227 Q. This is a matter that would have to be looked at as

19 I am doing it in the legal way.

20 A. I understand.

21 228 Q. In the legal way Yale Securities is a separate

22 company of which it would appear, although we do not

23 know yet, it would appear that the shares are owned

24 by this trust, but Yale Securities was the

25 beneficial owner of the money which was held in the

26 Ansbacher account?

27 A. I accept that, Judge, yes.

28 229 Q. Just one matter that I have to draw your attention

29 to, it is absolutely clear that Yale Securities was

36



1 a company which was involved from 1971 in your

2 affairs and you were fully conversant with its

3 existence and with its operations. Did you say to

4 Mr. Ryan, the authorised officer, that you had no

5 knowledge of Yale Securities?

6 A. In one interview I said I hadn't and in another

7

8

interview I said I had. With great respects to

Mr. Ryan I went along to his interview as an

9 employee of the bank and was given assurance that

10 the questions I would be asked would be about what I

11 did as a Director of the bank and he ambushed me,

12 Judge, and I got confused and I am sorry about that.

13 230 Q. I see, very well. I just want to ask you some

14 questions about your role as a director of Guinness

15 & Mahon. You have said in your statement there were

16 meetings with the Board only three times a year or

17 so?

18 A. Three or four times a year.

19 231 Q. The main business was carried on by the executives.

20 A. Correct.

21 232 Q. Were you on any committee?

22 A. Yes, I would have been asked to attend committees

23 from time to time if they were discussing something

24 to do with Cork or anything else I could make a

25 contribution to.

26 233 Q. Are you indicating that you only went to Guinness &

27 Mahon three times a year?

28 A. No, no, I would visit regularly. If I was in Dublin

29 once a week I would be in there. I probably didn't

37



1 go once a week, but probably about 40 times a year I

2 suspect.

3 234 Q. You were regularly going there?

4 A. I was, yes.

5 235 Q. As a director of this substantial company you would

6 have had to attend, would you not?

7 A. The bank were partners to me in all of the

8 developments pretty well.

9 236 Q. Apart from that, your duty as a director would

10 require you to ....(INTERJECTION).

11 A. Yes, as a non-Executive I would attend, yes.

12 237 Q. More than just attend, you had a duty as a director,

13 had you not, to supervise the affairs of the company

14 and to familarise yourself with how the company was

15 doing?

16 A. I suppose, Judge, at the board meetings certainly we

17 would get accounts or progress of accounts from

18 companies that were going to be established, but one

19 never as a non-Executive Director saw what loans

20 were being given to people.

21 238 Q. No, I am not saying that.

22 A. I certainly was not aware of the back-to-back or

23 whatever you call it, whatever is in the Press,

24 "suitable security", is that the word they use?

25 That was never discussed in front of me.

26 239 Q. You have said in your statement that you did not

27 know anything about the internal audit report?

28 A. No, that never came before a Board meeting that I

29 was at.

38



1 240 Q. Did you know about the system that was being

2 reported on in the internal report?

3 A. No.

4 241 Q. Did you know that ....(INTERJECTION).

5 A. This was the report which is in the Press which

6 condemns large deposits of money, is that what you

7 are saying?

8 242 Q. No, I am referring to the report which is in

9 Appendix 12 to the McCracken Report which is an

10 internal report from the accountants in the head

11 office in London (Exhibit 16)?

12 A. No, I was not aware of that.

13 243 Q. Do you know what I am talking about now?

14 A. I think I do because I read it in the Press, Judge.

15 244 Q. What I am asking you is did you know about the

16 approved account system?

17 A. No, I did not, Judge.

18 245 Q. Did you not know that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

19 were very large depositors in Guinness & Mahon in

20 Dublin?

21 A. I would have been aware that they were depositors in

22 both London and Dublin but not to the extent that

23 has now been exposed.

24 246 Q. When you say "not to the extent", they were in the

25 accounts, you could see in the accounts a huge

26 percentage of the total deposits?

27 A. We would just get the total number of deposits.

28 247 Q. So you did not know?

29 A. I was never aware of a breakdown of it.

39



1 248 Q. You did not know that your company depended to a

2 very considerable extent ....(INTERJECTION).

3 A. No, I was not aware, Judge.

4 24 9 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Traynor leaving the company?

5 A. Yes.

6 250 Q. Were you aware of the terms on which he left?

7 A. No, I was not.

8 251 Q. Were you aware that one of the terms was that the

9 deposits held by the Cayman company were to be run

10 down over a period of ....(INTERJECTION).

11 A. No, I was not told that.

12 252 Q. Were you aware that people could enter into

13 agreements with Mr. Traynor by which they could

14 lodge money to the Ansbacher account and take money

15 out of the Ansbacher account?

16 A. No, Judge, I was not.

17 253 Q. You were aware that the Ansbacher account was

18 earning money or was earning interest?

19 A. I would imagine any deposits would be earning

20 interest, yes.

21 254 Q. So that Yale Securities if it was the beneficial

22 owner of a deposit was entitled to interest?

23 A. Yes, of course.

24 255 Q. That interest in this case would have gone back to

25 the Cayman Islands to Yale Securities and then back

26 to the trustees?

27 A. If it had any monies on deposit, yes.

28 256 Q. I take it from what you have said today and from

29 your statement that none of the financial

40



1 arrangements that you have been referring to

2 generated any income which you thought should be

3 returned for your own personal income tax purposes?

4 A. Judge, I not alone took advice from Desmond Traynor

5 but I also took advice from Michael McMahon and

6 subse quent to that to his successor in Haughey

7 Boland.

8 257 Q. Who was that?

9 A. Michael McMahon's successor would be Pat Kenny.

10 258 Q. Mr. Kenny. When did you take advice from him?

11 A. More recently because I was dealing with Michael

12 McMahon for a long time.

13 259 Q. When did he ....(INTERJECTION).

14 A. Michael died in 1988 or something, I am not too sure

15 of the time he died but some time in the mid 1980's.

16 I took advice also, I remember, on the Wildwood, all

17 of that aspect was done by the bank through Don Reid

18 because they gave tax advice on that.

19 260 Q. I was going to ask you about that. I interrupted

20 you, after Mr. McMahon's death who did you take

21 advice from?

22 A. From his successor in Guinness & Mahon, I think it

23 was Pat Kenny but I am not sure. There was a lady I

24 used to deal with inside, mostly anyway. I did not

25 need the advice of senior tax advisors really in a

26 way for a lot of my time with them.

27 261 Q. Mr. Don Reid gave you advice?

28 A. He gave advice to the bank on the setting up of the

29 Wildwood situation.

41



1 262 Q. Did you discuss it with him?

2 A. I imagine that would have been discussed with him

3 and Guinness & Mahon.

4 263 Q. Did you discuss it?

5 A. No, not personally.

6 264 Q. Why did you mention Don Reid then?

7 A. Because I wanted to tell you in relation to Wildwood

8 that was a separate issue that was not dealt with by

9 my own tax people.

10 265 Q. Did you discuss Wildwood with Don Reid?

11 A. He would have set up the arrangement and I would

12 have checked it out with my own people.

13 266 Q. Did you discuss it with Mr. Don Reid?

14 A. I imagine I did, yes, but it would have been done in

15 consultation with Guinness & Mahon, Judge.

16 267 Q. When you say you discussed it with Mr. Don Reid, Don

17 Reid was advisor to Guinness & Mahon?

18 A. Yes.

19 268 Q. Then you say you would have checked it out with your

20 own people, who were they?

21 A. I would have asked whoever was the tax guy dealing

22 in Haughey Boland.

23 269 Q. At that time who would it have been?

24 A. I don't know, I can't remember. I imagine it would

25 have been Michael McMahon.

26 270 Q. Did Mr. Reid write out any memorandum for you?

27 A. Not that I am aware of, no. If he did I don't

28 recollect it.

29 271 Q. Do you think that Mr. McMahon would have

42



1 .... (INTERJECTION) .

2 A. Mr. McMahon was a very bad writer, as I said to you

3 already.

4 272 Q. Do you think he would have had any correspondence

5 with Mr. Reid?

6 A. I doubt it. I would have given him what we were

7 doing and asked him was it okay.

8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is all I have to ask

9 you about, but as I have

10 indicated we will have to get further information

11 later on. Ms. Mackey may like to ask you some

12 questions.

13 273 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just a couple of

14 questions, Mr. Love.

15 First of all, in relation to the Cayman trust, the

16 Elizabeth Love Trust, has any further monies been

17 lodged to it since its setting up?

18 A. The money that was borrowed from IIB as I understand

19 it ended up with Yale and then came back.

20 274 Q. Came back to?

21 A. Back to back the IIB loan.

22 275 Q. No, the question I asked you was about the Elizabeth

23 Love Trust.

24 A. The Elizabeth Love Trust as far as money is

25 concerned, there is Yale in my mind.

26 276 Q. So that money came back to Yale, so that augmented,

27 is that what you are telling me?

28 A. Sorry?

29 277 Q. Maybe I will phrase it another way. The Elizabeth

43



1 Love Trust was set up with monies that came from the

2 Channel Island Trust?

3 A. Yes, into Yale and then the trust.

4 278 Q. Were any further monies added over the years?

5 A. The only monies added over the years would have been

6 the £2 million that was borrowed from IIB.

7 279 Q. Right. No further lodgments were made by yourself

8 or your wife or your family to this trust?

9 A. No.

10 280 Q. Obviously interest accruing on Yale's deposit, as

11 you explained to us, would have been going back into

12 the trust as well from Ansbacher?

13 A. Yes.

14 281 Q. You told us a little in your statements about

15 borrowings that you made from the Elizabeth Love

16 Trust through Yale, could you tell us a little bit

17 about that now?

18 A. I made borrowings in the amount, they were all of a

19 personal nature and they would be paid back.

20 282 Q. How was that arranged and who arranged that you

21 could make borrowings?

22 A. When the trust was set up it was agreed that I use

23 or I borrowed, I think, in the early mid 1970's when

24 things were not too good, I borrowed money at that

25 time from the trust and then did nothing really

26 until the early 1990's.

27 283 Q. You said when the trust was set up it was agreed

28 that you could do this?

29 A. Yes.

44



1 284 Q. Who agreed this?

2 A. The trust agreed it with me.

3 285 Q. Who on behalf of the trust?

4 A. Des Traynor.

5 286 Q. Des Traynor was not one of the trustees, was he?

6 A. I imagine he agreed it with the trustees,

7 Ms. Mackey.

8 287 Q. Did you have any documentary evidence of that?

9 A. None whatsoever.

10 288 Q. It was clear to you from the inauguration of the

11 trust that you could borrow from it?

12 A. Correct, yes.

13 289 Q. Mr. Traynor told you this verbally, did he?

14 A. Yes.

15 290 Q. Can you recollect the conversation of what was said?

16 A. No, I can't.

17 291 Q. Did you ask him if this would be possible?

18 A. I imagine I did, but I can't recollect, Ms. Mackey,

19 other than it had to be done as I was advised by

20 Michael McMahon that it had to be a done on a

21 commercial basis and that was the reason for the

22 1.5% charge.

23 292 Q. You were advised by Michael McMahon that the trust

24 had to be ....(INTERJECTION).

25 A. If I borrowed money from the trust I had to pay

26 commercial rates for it.

27 293 Q. This was something you had discussed with Michael

28 McMahon from the time of the setting up of the

29 trust?

45



1 A. Yes.

2 294 Q. Whether you could borrow money from it?

3 A. Correct, and was it permissible and was it in order.

4 295 Q. Then you went to Des Traynor and you asked him to

5 agree that?

6 A. I am not too sure, the idea might have come from

7 him, I don't know. I would obviously have

8 cross-checked it with Michael McMahon at the time.

9 296 Q. Did you ever sign a letter of wishes in respect of

10 this trust?

11 A. No.

12 297 Q. Did your wife?

13 A. No, not that I am aware of.

14 298 Q. Have you ever seen a letter of wishes in relation to

15 this trust?

16 A. No.

17 299 Q. In relation to the borrowings from the trust over

18 the years, you have given us an amount of capital

19 and interest.

20 A. Correct, yes, most of it is interest.

21 300 Q. Did you make repayments over the years of interest?

22 A. No, the repayments will be made from the monies

2 3 Lyndon owe me.

24 301 Q. They will be made but to date no repayments have

25 been made?

26 A. No.

27 302 Q. In relation to the Channel Island trust, that is the

28 trust in your name, is that still in existence?

29 A. No, as far as I know it is not.

46



1 303 Q. Can you tell us when that came to an end?

2 A. I don't know. I have sent out information asking

3 about that. I suspect it ended when the money was

4 transferred to Cayman.

5 304 Q. In 1971?

6 A. It would have been later, the mid 1970's or

7 something like that.

8 305 Q. I think you said you were going to check about this,

9 there seems to be some confusion about dates.

10 A. Yes, I agree with that. I don't disagree with that.

11 Again I want to make the point to you and I think I

12 made it to the Judge, it was for me a very

13 unsettling time and things about it I tend to put

14 out of my mind. I was over the wall and thankfully

15 by 1981 there was light at the end of the tunnel and

16 certainly there was very much light at the end of

17 the tunnel in the 1990's even though the accounts

18 declare otherwise. Thankfully nowadays it is all

19 behind me.

20 306 Q. As the Judge said, all the more reason why if we can

21 get to look at documents relating to this we would

22 will be able to clarify it.

23 A. I am well aware of that, but you must understand in

24 my mind that it was a part of my life that I wanted

25 to just put aside and get rid of.

2 6 MS. MACKEY: I understand that. I do

27 not have any further

28 questions to ask you, Mr. Love. Thank you.

29 307 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Before we finish Mr. Love,

47



1 315 Q. What about Statements of Affairs, can you get those

2 over the years?

3 A. I don't know. Des prepared those.

4 316 Q. Will you try?

5 A. I will. Traynor used to give me those and I don't

6 know whether they are out there.

7 317 Q. Will you try?

8 A. I will, yes.

9 318 Q. You know the documents from our letter that we

10 require?

11 A. Yes, I do, Judge.

12 319 Q. We will be in touch with you arising from today and

13 arising from the statement we got yesterday, but in

14 the meantime if you have got documents that you are

15 going to send on to us that you would do so.

16 MR. O'HANLON: I was going to say, Judge,

17 in relation to the

18 documents, to date we have assembled quite a number

19 of documents and obviously the IIB and GM documents

20 which you have seen yourselves, but in addition to

21 that we have documents relating to that whole

22 Guinness Mahon saga in London, the various

23 transactions between the parties right up to the

24 1990 transaction whereby, in effect, Yale acquired

25 the debt from Guinness Mahon London which Lyndon

26 repaid and we have that assignment and so forth. In

27 relation to the Cayman situation, obviously we do

28 not know how long this is going to take but our hope

29 is that we will actually have accounts in addition

49



1 to trust documents. What I was going to suggest is,

2 and it is not ideal that one do these things

3 piecemeal, but nevertheless because we are not in

4 entire control of the situation that we would give

5 you what we have at the moment immediately and

6 obviously follow up once we get the balance.

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well, thank you.

8

9 END OF INTERVIEW

10

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13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

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29

50



STATEMENT OF J. CLAYTON LOVE JNR. TO INSPECTORS APPOINTEDBY ORDER OF THE HIGH COURT TO ANSBACHER ( CAYMAN )LIMITED.

1.0. FAMILY BACKGROUND:

1.1. My father Clayton Love Snr. was born 9 May 1903. He died in 1983. There werefour children o f the marriage namely Betsy, Bryan, John and I. Bryan and John aretwins.

1.2. My mother and father separated when I was in my teens. This was a particularlydifficulty separation. My father had commenced, a rela tion ship with a German

national named Anna Gertrude Heidom who had been sent to live with us by heruncle and guardian at the end of the war. The relationship led to the end o f my parentsmarriage. On the separation Anna Gertrude and my fattier m oved out of the familyhome to a house in Cork City and later to Dublin. My brother Bryan went to live withour father and Anna Gertrude in Dublin. Betsy, John and I stayed with our mother inCork. A s is undoubtedly common in situations of this nature various members of thefamily took sides. My sister Betsy did not speak to nor meet her father again until afew days before he died.

1.3 .1 married Elizabeth Love (nee McCann) in 1951. We have three children namelyClayton, Sarah and Neill. My son Clayton also has a son who is called Clayton.

2.0. THE FAMILY BUSINESS:

2.1. The family business consisted of a group o f companies collectively known as theClayton Love Group ("CLG" ) which was controlled by my late father who w as theprincipal shareholder. The companies traded as Ship Chandlers, Fish Processors, F ishWholesalers, General Wholesalers, Fishing Boat Operators, Restaurant Operators andFrozen Food Distributors. This latter business held the Findus Frozen FoodsDistribution franchise for Ireland.

2.2. My father, my brothers Bryan and John, Anna Gertrude and I worked with CLG.

2.3. In the late 1950's my late father decided to look for a larger firm of Accountantsto service CLG which at this stage was operating in Cork, Dublin and Southamptonand was also planning to expand to London and France. In the events HaugheyBoland & Co. were chosen and that firm nominated the late Desmond Traynor tohandle the account. The first occasion on which I met Des Traynor was in or about1959.



t

2.4. The late Mr. Traynor was quickly forced to adapt to the difficulties that existedwithin the CLG and suffice it to say that before long he gained the respect o f all of us.

He became an unofficial referee in areas of disagreement of which there were many.He had a great ability to resolve differences of opinion and indeed he was appointed aDirector of CLG in the late 1960's.

2.5. However differences and difficulties within the family business continued and Ithink it is fair to say that many of these differences were of a personal nature andirrespective of the rights or wrongs of the situation undoubtedly many of them had astheir origin the unhappy differences which had arisen between our parents. My ownrelationship with m y father was not good and we were often at odds with each other. Iwas chosen to represent Ireland at sailing for the Olympic Games in Melbourne in1956. My father refused to permit me have holidays and I was obliged to withdraw

from the team.

2.6. From the mid 1960's Des Traynor encouraged me to consider alternativeemployment options. He felt I would be better off outside CLG. One of the optionswhich I gave careful consideration to was emigrating to the U.S.A . or Canada.Ultimately on Des Traynor's advice I opted to stay in Ireland and I left theemployment of CLG in 1969. Within a fairly short period of time I was appointed aDirector o f a number o f companies and I also commenced work as a propertydeveloper in my own right. Des Traynor was my financial and business advisor.

2.7. My personal and professional relationship with Des Traynor continued. I reliedon h is advice and over the years I never had cause to question his advice and actions

on my behalf. I found him a most trustworthy and competent advisor. He was discreetand confidential and for example never discussed other the activities or businesses ofother clients with me nor in my presence. I vested considerable authority anddiscretion in Mr. Traynor and as stated never had reason to doubt or question hiscapacity or judgement while acting on my behalf.

^ 3.0 CLAYTON LOVE DISTRIBUTION LIMITED:

3. 1. 1 have been associated in the media with this company. I am not nor have I everbeen a Director, Shareholder or Executive in this company. This media speculation or

reporting has essentially confused my late father and L

4.0 GUINNESS AND MAHON (IRELAND) LIMITED ( "THE BANK" )

4.1 .1 w as asked by the late John Guinness who was a friend of mine through sailingto becom e a non-executive Director of the Bank so as to assist in developing itsbusiness in the Cork region. Mr. Guinness was then a Director of Guinness Mahon &Co. Ltd. ("GM") the holding company of the Bank and the Chairman o f the Bank.The Bank wanted to develop business in the Cork area through a local branch by



means of a locally based board member. I was accordingly appointed a Director of theBank in 1969 and I retired on 30 April 1990.

4.2.The Irish Board members included William Forward, Maurice O'Kelly, JohnGuinness, Desmond Traynor, and Don O'Connor. All of these, with the exception ofMr.O'Connor were executives of the Bank and/or of GM. I was the sole non-executive Director. The Secretary was Gerald McCracken. GM nominated a numberof directors from time to time.

4.3. Approximately 3 or 4 Board meetings were held in'Dublin each year. In generalthe meetings lasted circa one hour or so and were followed by lunch. I do not recallever having received minutes o f any such meetings. The meetings followed anAgenda and as far as I can recall dealt with the Banks own trading accounts, bad debtwrite offs etc. While I did not attend every board meeting, I did attend such meetingson a regular basis. During my term the management of the Bank changed on a number

of occasions as indeed did the identity of its controlling shareholders.

4.4 . In addition to Board meetings, I assisted the Bank informally when required. Ingeneral such assistance dealt with new business, e.g. what my views were on aparticular project or potential borrower.

4.5. Business discussed at board meetings did not deal with individual accounts andsave on very rare occasions I would not have been aware of any specific dealings ortransactions which customers had with the Bank. I might have known that particularcompanies or individuals may have been customers but no more than that. I wastherefore generally aware of the main Cork based customers and the people that theBank targeted through its Cork branch for the purpose of developing its business. Iwas asked on occasion to arrange introductions with professionals such as solicitorsand accountants and to attend local branch functions. I was certainly not aware ofspecific dealings or facilities which customers had either locally in Cork or throughDublin. The business which was discussed at board meetings generally dealt withoverall performance direction and the development strategy for the Bank. AccordinglyI was aware that the Bank like other Banks had investments in Banks and TrusteeCompanies in the Channel Islands and in the Cayman Islands. I was aware as to thegeneral performance of these operations and as to whether the Bank had disposed ofthese investments or branches.

4.6. Indeed to reinforce this position I was not aware (if press reports are true) that thelate Hugh Coveney T.D. who was a very close personal friend of mine was also acustomer of the Bank and further that the late Des Traynor was hisfinancial adviser.Other than as detailed on the heading Yale Securities Limited hereafter, I was notaware o f any day to day operations o f these branches, die identity of any of thecustomers or the size or nature of any particular transactions.

4.7.1 was aware that the Bank disposed of its interest in the Cayman Islands in orabout I think 1978 to a consortium which I understood involved Des Traynor in someshape or form. I have no idea as to what his direct or indirect involvement was or as toany of the other partners in the venture. Des Traynor never informed me of theposition nor did any one else in the Bank. Des Traynor never asked me if I wished to



join such consortium and as stated to this day I have no idea as to who else wasinvolved save what I read in the media.

4 .8 .1 had no knowledge whatever of D es Traynor's activities or those of the otherexecutives within the Bank; the extent of GMCT or other customer deposits in theBank; the reported internal audit report carried out by GM; nor of the term "suitablysecured".

4. 9 .1 believe I met John Furze on three occasions. The last time w as at Des Traynorsfuneral. The first and second occasions were at the Bank. Each o f these m eetings w asvery brief and of a social nature. I was aware of the existence of GMCT andunderstood that it carried on offshore banking and trust services. W hile I knew thatGMCT was sold to Des Traynor and others, I did not know the details and neverspoke to Des Traynor about it.

4. 10 .1 understood that Overseas Nominees was a trust company owned by GMCT inmuch the same w ay that Mars Nominees was of the Bank.

4.11. As a result o f problems encountered by me in the U.K. property market in themid to late 1970's my continued position as a Director of the Bank was always indoubt and this is elaborated on later on in this statement.

5.0 MY PROPERTY DEVELOPMENTS FROM THE LATE 1960's:

5.1. The first major development which I undertook was the construction of the

Douglas Shopping Centre in Cork. This was the second such shopping centre built inIreland, the Stillorgan Centre being the first. At this stage Des Traynor was the jointManaging Director of the Bank and he looked after all of the funding and fin ancialplanning aspects for the project The Bank was a partner in the venture to the extent of40%. I focused on the planning and development issues and our relationship was verymuch a continuation of how we had worked together in CLG. Des Traynor was not ashareholder or partner in the development nor indeed in any subsequent developmentswhich I undertook. The Douglas Shopping Centre development was a success and Imoved on to other developments with Des Traynor handling all aspects of myfinan cia l affairs. Des Traynor dealt with both the commercial and financial affairs ofthe property business and indeed he also handled my private banking affairs.

5.2. From the start of the 1970's D es Traynor pointed me in the direction of Londonand I began to look at a number of options which were introduced to m e by GM inassociation with the Guinness and Mahon Property Company Limited ( " GMPC" )based in D ublin, a subsidiary of the Bank. That business was carried on throughChannel Island companies which were owned by a Channel Island Discretionary Trustcalled the Clayton Love C.I. Trust. The potential beneficiaries of w hich were myfamily and m e. To the best of my recollection the Trustees were a Mr. Woodwardand/or the Guinness and Mahon Jersey Trust Limited or nominees thereof. I do nothave a copy o f the Trust Deed.

5.3. I was advised by GM, the Bank and Des Traynor that the most tax efficient

manner in carrying out developments in the U.K. was through Channel Island



companies owned by a Channel Island Discretionary Trust. Any profits earned would,so long as they were not remitted to Ireland, not be subject to Irish tax. Accordinglythey set up the necessary structure. At the time I took tax advice fro m Michael

McMahon who was then a tax partner in Haughey Boland. In particular his advicedealt with a suitable tax structure and the advice which I received was that such astructure was lawful and tax efficient Further he advised me that so long as nodisbursements were made to me I would have no liability for income tax in Ireland.He further advised that if I borrowed money from the Trusts or companies I would .have to do so on a commercial basis as otherwise I might have a liability to incometax in Ireland.

5.4. hi the events I identified some interesting opportunities in London in associationwith GMPC and we began assembling a site for a major office development in theWhitechapel area of London. A large number of interests had to be acquired and many

of these were surplus to our needs. It was nevertheless important for us to buy in theseinterests so as to develop the site. This acquisition tgok a number of years to achieve.Interests which were surplus to requirements were disposed o f and this resulted in thegeneration of profits of circa £75,000/£80,000 to which I will refer to later.

5.5. GM were the bankers to the Whitechapel project and essentially the project was ajoint venture between the Clayton Love C.I. Trust companies and GMPC. GMadvanced £2.6m. stg. to the project. This was guaranteed as to 60% by me and 40%by GMPC which was a 40% shareholder in the project.

5.6. Our plan was to assemble a site, obtain planning approval, find a prospectivetenant and sign up that tenant in advance of commencing construction. The U .K.

Inland Revenue surfaced as the likely party to take a letting of the entire developmentand we were in final negotiations with them when the property market largelycollapsed. A s a result the U.K. Inland Revenue were forced to re-assess their propertyrequirements and at the ultimate moment pulled out o f the pre-let negotiations leavingus with a project in respect of which we did not have a tenant Every effort was madeto locate an alternative tenant but it became apparent that it was going to be verydifficult to do so in the aftermath of the property crash or indeed even to dispose ofthe assets without incurring enormous losses.

5.7. De s Traynor, GMPC, the Bank, GM and I worked hard to rescue the situation.My position appeared quite hopeless. I had given a personal guarantee and the moniesdue on foot of that guarantee were far greater than my assets. The only card I had wasthat GM had introduced the Whitechapel project to me and the Bank was a 40%shareholder in the project. I felt that they had responsibility to assist in finding asolution. GM, the Bank and Des Traynor assessed the situation and came up with anarrangement whereby my assets and those of the companies involved in theWhitechapel project came under GM control. I had little choice but to accept. LyndonProperties Limited ("Lyndon") was the vehicle for the implementation of the deal.

5.8. GM appointed three of their executives to the board of Lyndon and effectivelytook control o f the company and this remained so until 23 April 1981 when two of thethree GM appointed Directors resigned as a result of a further agreement with GM inrelation to my indebtedness and that of Lyndon.



5.9. By 30 April 1982 the balance sheet of Lyndon showed a cumulative loss o f£5,519 ,080. GM w as owed £2,620,527 and I was owed £3,345,566. These loans werepayable in sterling. M y loan was acquired from GM at nominal cost as part of the re-

structuring. GM were entitled to interest on part of its loan. I was not entitled tointerest on m y loan. Any repayment of my loan would g ive rise to a Capital Gains Taxcharge for me on the amount repaid and it was clearly understood and agreed that Iwould not receive any repayment on my loan until such time as GMs loan wascleared.

5.10. B y 1990 Lyndons total indebtedness was circa IR£$.lm. and it had accumulatedlosses of ER£3.1m. GM was owed £3.3m. Stg. and I was owed £2.8m

5.11. The part of the GM loan bearing interest had to be repaid. How ever anagreement was not fina lised in relation to the element o f the GM loan on w hichinterest was not being earned. M y understanding was that i f the interest bearingelement of the loan was satisfactorily paid then^GM might look favourably ondisposing of the non-interest bearing loan on favourable terms to me. Des Traynorinformed me that at the time GM was firmly of the view that there was n o chance ofthem or me receiving repayment of my loan or their non-interest bearing element oftheir loan. Finally in March 1976 GM agreed terms and these were detailed in theirletter of 24 March 1976 to Lyndon.

5.12. Des Traynor was concerned about this last element as personnel in the Bankwere changing from time to time as indeed was ownership of the Bank itself. Hisconcern was that an "understanding" may be worthless as a result o f a change inpersonnel and particularly of course if my net worth increased. As I understand the

position Mr. Traynor sought clarification with GM and by April 1990 the fina lelement of the first two parts of the loan was repaid. Des Traynor negotiated with GMand their preferred option was to assign the non-interest bearing element of the loan toa Third Party at a nominal cost of IR£1,000. The amount of the loan was £2,100,000stg.

5.13. Des Traynor proposed that Yale Securities Limited should purchase the loanfrom GM. This had two advantages

GM w as no longer in control of the loan and the uncertainty surrounding theloan and my potential personal liability was removed.

The Elizabeth Love Trust which was the owner o f Yale Securities Limited hadan opportunity o f generating income should Lyndon be able to repay the loan.

5.14. Accordingly Overseas Nominees purchased the GM loan on behalf of YaleSecurities Limitd for IR£1,000. Yale Securities Limited is a Cayman Islandsregistered company owned by a Cayman Island Discretionary Trust called theElizabeth Love Trust which on occasion has been referred to as the Y ale Trust. Onacquisition of the loan Yale Securities Limited demanded repayment of the loan fro mLyndon. Appropriate exchange control approval was obtained from the Central Bankand Lyndon paid Yale from monies borrowed fro m Irish Intercontinental Bank("DOB"). A condition of the arrangement with Yale w as that it would place the monies



it received on deposit as security for the IIB loan to Lyndon. This security wouldreduce as Lyndon repaid IIB.

5.15 . Des Traynor handled these transactions with the Trustees of the Elizabeth LoveTrust and the Directors of Yale Securities Limited.

6.0 THE ELIZABETH LOVE TRUST

6.1. After I left executive employment with CLG. I was advised to establish a trust soas to make provision for my wife and children in the event that personal guaranteesetc. which were required for property development would be called as a result ofwhich I might lose my assets.

6.2. A trust was established in the Channel Islands and this was the Clayton Love C.LTrust The trust owned a number of companies which were active in the U.K. propertymarket. Later Des Traynor advised that a discretionary trust for my wife and childrenbe established by the trustees of the Clayton Love C.I. Trust and this was set up andbased in the Cayman Islands. This was known as the Elizabeth Love Trust. That trusthad £75,000/£80,000 settled on it by the trustees of the Clayton Love C.I. Trust. Thesource of this money was the profits generated from some of the property activity inthe UJC The Elizabeth Love Trust owned two Cayman Island companies namelyOrchid Limited and Yale Securities Limited. Initially it loaned these m onies to Orchidwhich later repaid the monies and then loaned them to Yale Securities Limited.Orchid ceased trading and was removed from the Cayman Islands company register

some years ago. Yale Securities Limited continues to trade but it has yet to make adistribution to the Elizabeth Love Trust.

6.3. From the outset it was agreed with the Trustees of the Elizabeth Love Trust that Icould borrow as required from the Trust via Yale Securities Limited at a commercialrate which was calculated at 1.5% above deposit rates. This rate rose to 16/17% in theearly 1980's. M y indebtedness as at 30 September 1999 was £2,497,473 stg of which£1,281,684 stg was interest I expect that by the end of this year Lyndon will be in aposition to repay what it owes me and I plan to repay Yale Securities Limited fro mthose net proceeds.

6.4. As Yale Securities Limited is the only asset of the Elizabeth Love Trust and asthe Elizabeth Love Trust has not made any distributions to the potential beneficiariesof that trust, the value of Yale Securities Limited is essentially the value of the trust asat this stage.

6.5. Yale has had a mixed but ultimately successful trading record to date. It hasachieved its objective albeit somewhat later than planned.

6.6. All monies received by Yale has been generated from trading activities save theoriginal loan fro m the Elizabeth Love Trust which in turn received this from theClayton Love C.I. Trust Those monies were generated from trading activities outsidethe State.



6.7. The primary motive in establishing Yale was not as might be expected taxationavoidance. Rather it was to protect my firmly n the event o f afinancial disaster. Overthe years Yale has supported activities which I have been involved in in the Irishproperty market in the sense of providing loan security and direct loans to variousproperty companies with w hich I was involved.

6.8. Yale was also involved in a property investment in the United States which wasunsuccessful and indeed considerable losses incurred. That investment w as throughLynbrette Trust and related to an investment in a trailer park in Arizona which wasbanked by AIB.

7.0 ANSBACHER DEPOSITS

7.1. Until the publication of the McCracken report I was unaware of the schemewhich Des Traynor operated on behalf of Ansbacher Cayman Limited ("Ansbacher")depositors and I say this in both my capacity as a foxpier Director of the Bank and as a

connected person to Yale Securities Limited and indeed as a personal friend of thelate Des Traynor.

7.2. I was aware that Yale had deposits with GMCT and that these had an accountreference of "M". I did not know where the deposits were held. However I was awarethat GMCT did have deposits with the Bank and also with GM.

7.3. Whenever I required to borrow from Yale, I advised Des Traynor who wouldeither directly request the money or in the alternative get me to contact some one ineither Dublin or in the Cayman Islands. I was very open about this and indeed most ofthe requests were confirmed by me in writing. I simply assumed that the money wastransferred from Yale through the Cayman Islands.

7.4. Since D es Traynors death any dealings have been with Ansbacher.

7.5. I know both Sam Field Corbett and Padraig Collery and approached them forclarification as to how Des Traynor had been handling any of Yale Securities moneyand while they were happy to assist they were unable to give me any helpfulinformation.

7 .6 .1 have been in direct contact with Ansbacher who have been helpful in terms ofproviding information on Y ales accounts but have not been able to give me anyinformation beyond that I am awaiting copy of the Yale accounts from Ansbacher.

7.7.1 believe that loans from Yale Securities Limited were routed to me via HamiltonRoss on the instructions of Des Traynor.

J.(^ Jl ar ch 2000.



SUPPLEMENTAL STATEMENT OF J. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.TO INSPECTORS APPOINTED BY ORDER OF THE HIGHCOURT TO ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED

1.0. CLAYTO N LOV E C.I. TRUST:

1.1. This Trust was established in or about 1971. While to date I have been unable toobtain a copy of the Trust Deed I am aware that one w as executed as I havediscovered a copy document sent to me by Des Traynor showing that under Clause32(1) of the Deed Christopher Woodward resigned as a Trustee and appointedGuinness & M ahon Jersey Trust Limited in his place on 17 December 1973. How everI understand that Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust Limited (Reg. No. 61S8) wasdissolved on 2 October 1989. The only documents which I hold are those alreadyfurnished being a copy of the said document which was sent by the late Mr. Traynorto me on 14 February 1974 and the Joan Williams letter to me of 26 April 1974. Aspreviously indicated this Trust owned a number of property companies which tradedin the U.K. It generated some funds and settled c.£75 ,000/£80,000 on the ElizabethLove Trust. The late Mr. Traynor established the Trust for m e and while I have no

recollection of signing a Trust Deed, clearly such must have been prepared. I havenever received a distribution from this Trust. A s previously advised I was advised thatit was perfectly legitimate to establish the Trust at the time o f its establishment.

2.0. TH E ELIZABETH LOVE TRUST:

2.1. The late Mr. Traynor arranged for the establishment of this Trust and as stated theTrust was established on 23 April 1971.

3.0. TRANSCRIPT OF EXAMINATION 8 MARCH 2000:

3.1. I wish to clarify certain of the responses given by me during my examination on 8March 2 000 as follows:-

Q7. Since the date of my examination my son has travelled to the Cayman Islands andobtained a copy of the Trust Deed which we now know is dated 23 April 1971.

Q30. My wife Betty signed the Deed.

Q35. As stated we now know that the Trust Deed was signed by my wife Betty.

1 OOCO233OU0IMSSIMATT



Q38. Please refer to the Des Traynor letter of 2 November 1972 regarding the initial capitalof £40,518 .35 and £20,000 which was paid to the Trust in 1971 and 1972. Thesemonies were transferred from the Channel Islands to the Cayman Islands.

Q55. The only statement ever shown to me by De s Traynor constituting what I would

regard as a Bank statement is the copy statement of Guinness & Mahon Limitedfurnished by me. Other than that document the only document which Mr. Traynorever gave to me was a form of Statement of Affairs which as stated he gave m e once ayear at most.

Q69. The American property investment was via Lynbrette Trust and not LyndonProperties.

Q89. My answer is incorrect The properties were assembled from 1969 (please refer toparagraph 5.2. of my statement and to Q7 of the transcript).

Q108. We now know that the Channel Islands Trust was established on 3 September 1971.However it was in the process o f being established for some period before that but forhow long I cannot be certain. The 1971 advance of £40,518 to the Cayman Trust wasI believe from profits generated by the property companies in the U.K. I can certainlystate that the source was not from any income or capital of mine or that of my wifewhich was generated in Ireland.

Q l l l . The years are incorrect Please refer to the 1976 Bank re-structuring document.

Q150. Et seq: Lynbrette was a Trust wherein Yale invested w ith others in a property venturein the United States. As previously advised the development was unsuccessful.

Q171. Yale's M and M l account were set off against personal debts.

Q179. The account (M l) was the property of Yale Securities Limited.

Q189 :

195. I have checked the accounts of Lyndon Properties and these payments are treated as aloan by Lyndon to Yale.

Q196-202. These cheques i.e. £30,000 and £7,000 were lodged from personal accounts and were

re-payments of loans by me to the late Mr. Traynor. Insofar as I can ascertain the

monies have nothing whatever to do with the Elizabeth Love Trust or Yale SecuritiesLimited. On a number of occasions Mr. Traynor made personal advances to me forlimited periods of time. While I have no recollection of these monies, I b elieve thatthese cheques represented repayments by me of such advances.

Q199. I want to make it abundantly clear that I have not at any stage used the Ansbacheraccounts as a personal account or anything of that nature. We are endeavouring toobtain a copy o f the Yale accounts and these will of course be provided once received.

2«>OOJV!OU«/t31SSU-IATT



C / U 0 5 / 0 2 / 0 6 Q 4 0 0 4

l i p

THIS INDENTURE OF SETTLEMENT is made the day of f avvl

A.D. 1971 BBTWBBH SLIZAHSTH L0V3 . of "Clanricarde", Blackrock

Road, Cork, Ireland (hereinafter called "the Settlor") of

the one part and GVIMESS MASON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED a

company incorporated under the laws of the Cayman Islands

arid carrying on business therein (hereinafter called "theTrustees" which term shall also include any additional or

successor trustee or trustees hereof) of the other part

WHEREAS the Settlor has caused the property-

described in the First Schedule hereto (which together

with the money investments and property for the time being

representing the same and any additions or diminishments

thereto and any further property becoming subject to the»

trusts hereof is hereinafter called "the Trust Fund") to

be duly transferred into the name or under the control of

the Trustees with the intent that the same shall be held

upon the trusts hereinafter expressed

NOW THIS SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH as follows:

1. The Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust

Fund during the period commencing on the date of execution

of these presents and terminating on the expiration of

twenty (20) years after the death of the last survivor of

the lineal descendents now living of ..His Late Majesty King

George the Fifth or on the expiration of seventy years from

the date hereof (whichever shall be the earlier)- (said periocE

being /



C / ' _ 0 3 / 0 2 / C c C 4 00 5

•"v" y '-'"v v.""1!1""111.* 1

I 1 ' "ill i n I

T'

Page Two

being hereinafter called "the Accumulation Periodand

said termination data being hereinafter called "the

Fixed Bate") UPOH TEUST as' to investments or property

other than money either to permit all or any of the sane

to remain as invested for as long as the Trustees shall

in their absolute discretion deem Jit or to sell call in

or convert into money all or any of such investments orproperty UPQM TRUST, as to money including the money

arising from any such sale calling in or conversion as)

aforesaid to invest the same in or upon any of the invest-««

meats hereinafter authorised

2. TBS Trustees may apply or invest the Trust Fund

in the purchase of or at interest upon the security of such

stocks funds shares securities options or other investments

or property whether real or personal movaEe or immovable

of whatever nature and wherever situate (including any

fractional or undivided interest therein and including the

purchase maintenance or improvement of a freehold or lease-

hold dwellinghouse situate anywhere in the world for use

as a residence) and whether involving liability or not and

whether producing income or not or upon such personal

credit with or without security, .as the Trustees in their

absolute discretion shall think fit with power from time

to time to vary such investments for others of a like

nature (yet being under no duty to diversify investments)

and with, power to hold cash funds uninvested and other

non-income producing property to ..the extent that theTrustees shall have the same full and unrestricted powers

of investing the Trust Fund in all respects as if they

were /



Page Three

•ware absolute owners beneficially entitled PROVIDED however

that in the professed execution of the trusts and powers

hereof the Trustees shall not be liable for any loss to

the Trust Fund arising by reason of any investments made

in good 'faith or by -reason of any mistake or omission

mads in good faith by the Trustees or by reason of any

other matter or thing except wilful and individual fraud

or wilful and individual wrong-doing on the part of the

Trustees who are sought to be made liable without limitingthe generality of the foregoing the Trustees are hereby

specifically empowered to male investments and to acquire

property without any requirement of diversification even

though such investments or property may be highly specul&-ti\

or not of a type which are ordinarily legal or suitable

trust investments or holdings in particular the Trustees

may margin or hypothecate trust assets or securities in

whole or in part sell short purchase or sell-options puts

calls or other contracts or securities or commodities and

carry on trading activities of every type whatsoever

3. THE Trustees shall have the power to sell lease

or exchange and to grant options to purchase lease or

exchange any property movable or immovable (which expressionshall be deemed always to include any part or share of s lv l j -

such property which may at any time constitute the whole

or any part of the Trust Fund) either at public auction oir

private sale for such consideration and on such terras credit

or security as the Trustees may deem advisable and wbetherr

for the purpose of re-investmant distribution .or diversiorr.

and no purchaser on any sale by the Trustees or other person

deal i nor tu-i+'K ™ •



Page Four

into the propriety or validity of any act of the Trustees

or to see to the application of any money paid or property

transferred to or'"upon the order of the Trustees

4. During the Accumulation Period the Trustees shall

stand possessed of the Trust Fund and the income thereof

upon^tha following trusts that is to say:

(a) Upon Trust for all or any to the exclusion

of the others or other of the persons described in the

Second Schedule hereto (hereinafter called "the BeneficiariesfO

* in such shares ajud in such manner and object to such limit-

ations and provisions as the Trustees in their absolute and

uncontrolled discretion at any time or times before the

Fixed Date by any deed or deeds revocable or irrevocable

without transgressing the rule, against perpetuities way

appoint and so that oy ny such appointment the Trustees

may confer upon any appointee any valid power or powers of

appointment in favour of any other Beneficiary AMD it is

expressly provided (without prejudice to the generality of

the foregoing) that the Trustees may appoint on discretionary

trusts and that such trusts may include as objects of the

powers as regards income of the Trust Fund any Beneficiarj

and may dispose of the whole or any part of the Trust Fund

to the Trustees of any other Settlement (in existence at

the time of such disposition and whether in accordance with

the laws of the Cayman Islands or not) under which any

Beneficiary is a beneficiary" .to be held as an accretion

to the Trust Fund thereof and 'subject to' any such appoint-

ment and so far as the same may not extend

(b) /



C / L O S / 0 2 / 0 a 0 4 0 0

Page Five

<b) Upon Trust -to accumulate any income of the

Trust Fund in the -way of compound interest hy investing

the same and the resulting income therefrom in any of

the investments hereinbefore authorised and adding such

accumulations .and resulting income as accretions to and

as "a* part of the Trust Fund

<e) Provided always that the Trustees in their

absolute discretion may pay or apply at any time and from

time to time during the Accumulation Period all or any part

of the income or capital of the Trust #und to or for the

benefit of the Beneficiaries and if more than one for any

one or more to the exclusion of the other or others of

them and in such shares as the Trustees may in theirabsolute discretion think fit

(<3) Upon the termination of the Trust on the

Fixed Date Upon Trust as to the balance of the Trust Fund

to or for the benefit of the children of Elizabeth Love

as shall be living immediately before the Fixed Date if

more than one in equal shares per stirpes and subject as

aforesaid the Trustees shall hold the capital and income

of the Trust Fund in Trust for the National Trust of

Ireland and the receipts of the Treasurer for the time

being of such Charity shall be a good discharge to the

Trustees

, (e) Any payment or '-application of the Trust

Fund to or for the benefit of any"one or more of the

parties hereinbefore enumerated may be made either out-

right or in trust for the said party or parties which

trust or trusts mav be frv.*™ * L - -



C / L O S . ' 0 2 / 0 6 0 4 0 0 i

Page Six

provisions and upon such terms and conditions includingtrusts and powers exercisable at the discretion of any

•person or persons as the Trustees may in their absolute

discretion think fit

5. IN addition to all the powers vested in the

Trustees expressly or by implication hereunder or by law

or statute the Trustees shall have all the followingpowers and may in their absolute discretion exercise all

or any of the same from time to time in such manner and to

* such extent if at all as may seem to them desirable

(a) To receive additional property or donations

by gift or will or by the provisions of any other trust

or trusts or otherwise from any person or persons as

additions to this Trust and as part of the Trust Fund and

to hold the same upon the Trusts herein set forth and to

administer such additions under the provisions hereof

<b) With respect to any property constituting

the whole or part of the Trust Fund to exercise all powers

which individual beneficial owners might exercise without

being restricted in any way by the office of trustee includ-ing (without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing)

the following powers

(i) To promote and incorporate companies to

carry on any business whatsoever and power to

liquidate the same and distribute their, assets

in specie or otherwise .

(ii) To vote upon or in respect of any shares

sscurities bonds notes or other evidence or

interest /



C y U 0 5 / 0 2 y 0 3 0 4 0 C 1 0

j m m x ss i m s ^ ^ m m m m ^ m s m a m

Page Seven

i' .

interest .in .or obligations of any corporation

trust association or concern whether or not

affecting the security or the apparent security

of any part of the Trust Fund or the purchase

or sale or lease of the assets of any such

corporation trust association or concern and

(iii) To give proxies or powers of attorney

' with or without power of substitution for voting« «

or acting 011 behalf of the Trustees as the owners

of any such property and

(iv) To participate in and consent to anycorporate reorganisation consolidation merger •

liquidation dissolution sale or lease or in and

to any other change in any corporation or in its

financial structure affecting any securities or

other property held hereunder and

i

(v) To become a party to any voting trust ordeposit any securities or property held here-

under with any protective reorganisation or

similar committee or in any voting trust or with

any depositary designated thereby and

(vi) To exerciss or concur in exercising the

voting and other rights attaching to any securities

.for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund

so as. to become a Director or other officer or

employee of any company and to be entitled to

vote for and to be paid and to retain for the

Trustees' use and benefit reasonable remuneration



C y U 0 5 / 0 2 / 0 3 0 4 0 0

Page Eight

(vii) To hold or deposit any securities or

other property .in bearer form or in the name of

the Trustees or in the name of any one of them

being a Trust Corporation or in the name of some

other persons or partnership or in the name of a

duly appointed nominee without disclosing the' >

fiduciary relationship and

(viii) To omit to register bonds or securities

and

I

<ix) To .keep the whole or any part of the

documents relating to and the money investments

and property comprised in the said Trust Fundwithin or without the said Cayman Islands

(c) To invest re-invest and manage the Trust

Fund either separately or together with other funds to

acquire and retain the shares or securities of investment

companies or investment trusts whether of the open or

closed type and without notice to anyone to participate

in any common trust fund maintained by any corporate

trustee at any. time serving hereunder

(d) To engage the services of an investment

adviser or advisers at the expense of the Trust Fund and

without liability to follow the recommendations of such

adviser or advisers even though such recommendations may

be highly speculative or not of a type which would ordinarily

be legal or suitable trust investments

(e) To borrow or lend money on such terms

and from or to such persons including the Beneficiaries

a s H p Trn^ + onc v Hn+avm iiiB +.0 lhp> r n a sn n a h lp anr? nrnnfir-



C / L O 5 / 0 2 / 0 S 0 4 0 0 12

Page Mine

and -without limiting the generality of the foregoing to

margin or hypofchscate'all or any -portions of the Trust

' Fund

(f) To make execute and deliver deeds conveyances

assignments'transfers options leases mortgages instruments

of pledge instruments creating liens contracts and other

instruments sealed or unsealed to raze or erect any build-

ing or other structures and to make any lcind of improve-

ments which the Trustees deem proper

(g) Without prejudice to the jurisdiction of

the Court and according to the respective rights and

interests <?f the persons interested to treat as income or

capital or to apportion between income and capital any

dividends stock dividends rights interest rent issues and

profits derived from any property at any time comprised

in the Trust Fund and generally to determine what part of

the receipts of the Trust is income and what is capital

and whether or not such property is wasting or unproductive

or was purchased at a premium or discount and notwith-

standing the time whan such dividends stock dividends

rights interest rents issues or profits were earned accrued

declared or paid to make such reserves out of income or

capital as the Trustees deem proper for expenses taxes and

other liabilities of the Trust to pay from income or froro

capital or to apportion between income and capital any

expenses of making or changing investments and'-of selling

exchanging or leasing including brokers' commissions and

charges and generally to determine what part of the

expenses of the Trust shall be charged to capital and



C / L 0 S / 0 2/Ca0 4 0 0

S S i P i i l ^ i M

Page Ten

and separate parts or shares the allocation of income

gains profits losses and distributions

<h) To carry on participate or invest in any» t

corporation partnership joint venture or bo-operative and

to enter into such leases contracts or other undertakingsrelating to the Trust Fund or any part of 'it as the Trustees

shall in their uncontrolled discretion deem advantageous

notwithstanding that such leases contracts or undertakings

* 'extend or may extend beyond the termination of this Trust

(i) To institute prosecute and defend any suits

or actions or other proceedings affecting the Trustees or

the Trust Fund or any part thereof to compromise any matters%

of difference or compound any debts owing to them as

Trustees or any other claims and to adjust any disputes

in relation to debts or clairos against them as Trustees

upon evidence that to the Trustees shall seem, sufficient

and in whole or in part at public auction or private sale

or otherwise and upon such terms and for such terms as the

Trustees, deem advisable to make partition with the co-owners

or joint owners besides the Trust having any interest in

any properties in which the Trustees are interested and to

make such partition either by sale or by set-off or by

agreement or otherwise (including where deemed desirable

provision for equality ol exchange)

(j) To take' the opinion or advice of counselconcerning any difference arising under this Settlement

or any matter in any way relating to the Trust Fund or to

the Trustees' duties in connection with the Trust Fund and



c / ' '_ 0 3/02/0i30400 1 +

Page Eleven

(i) To employ and pay at the expense of the

Trust Fund any.aga'rft -in any part of the world whether

an attorney solicitor banker accountant stockbroker or

other agent and whether or not being one of the Trustees

hereunder to transact any business or do any act required

to be transacted or done in the execution of the trusts

hereof including the receipt or payment of money and the

execution of documents and no firm association or corporat-

ion any of whose securities are included within the Trust

Fund and no purchaser or other person dealing with any

agent purporting to act, under delegation of authority

from the Trustees shall be required to ascertain or

enquire whether a case exists in which such delegation is

permitted or whether such delegated authority is stillsubsisting BKJ'/IDSD however that the Trustees shall not

be responsible for the default negligence or fraud of any

agent so employed or for any loss 'occasioned thereby

although the employment of such agent was not strictly

necessary or expedient

(1) Upon and for the purpose of any distribution,

or appropriation of the Trust Fund or any part thereof in

their unfettered discretion to place such value on any aad

all assets from time to time forming part of the Trust

Fund as to them in their absolute and uncontrolled discret-

ion shall seem just and proper and any such valuation

made in good faith shall b'e absolutely final and binding

and conclusive on all beneficiaries hereunder and furtherupon any such discretion or appropriation to determine to

whom specified assets shall be given and to distribute the

same subject to the payment of such amounts as mav be



C/LOS/G 2/030400

Page Twelve

1

necessary to adjust the shares of the various B6neficiaries

. -and further that .any distributions of the Trust Fund may

be either made directly to any Beneficiary or applied

for his benefit by the Trustees or during his minority

made to his duly appointed guardian or to any person with

whom he lives or resides for the use of the said Beneficiary

^ without responsibility for its expenditure

6, WITHOUT prejudice to the generality of Clause)

5 hereof if the Trust Fuiids shall include any shares or« 1 • '

other interests in a company the ownership of which gives

to them the right in any circumstances to control the

. affairs of the Company or of any of its subsidiaries the

Trustees shall be under no liability or duty to appoint

any representative to the Board of the said Company or

of any of its subsidiaries and further shall have no

responsibility to enquire into oversee or take part in

the management or affairs or business of the Company or

) any of its subsidiaries

7. IN addition to reimbursement of their proper

expenses the Trustees shall be entitled to remuneration

(free of any probate succession estate or other death

duties wheresoever payable and as a first charge on the

Trust Fund) for their services as Trustees in accordance

with their published scale of fees in force from time

to time PROVIDED however that the Trustees may 'transact

v on behalf of or with the Trust or any Beneficiary here-

under any business which by their constitution they are

a u t h o r i s e d /



C/L03/02/030400 13

r

j

Paga Thirteen

Vt , authorised to undertake, upon the same terms as would for

I T

• the time being be made'with an ordinary customer and

without accounting for any profit thereby made and in

particular and without prejudice to the generality of the

J foregoing the Trustees may retain on current account or

deposit account or advance at interest all "moneys necessaryor convenient to be retained or advanced in connection with

the Trust and may retain for themselves any commission or

i remuneration paid or allowed by stockbrokers insurance

J ' 4 .companies or other agents without being..liable to account

for any profit thereby PROVIDED further that the Trustees

may transact business on behalf of the Trust or any

beneficiary hereunder with any corporation or partnership

in which tha Trustees are office holders or shareholders

or partners or are otherwise financially interested or with

any person or firm holding shares of being otherwise

S-s financially interested in the Trustees without being

liable to account for any profit accruing to the Trustees

a3 such office holders shareholders or partners as a result

of such business and the Trustees may hold office in any

corporation shares or securities Which comprise or form

part of the Trust Fund and shall not be liabie to account

to the Trust for emoluments received by them as such

office holders

8 * ( a ) T H S T r u s t e e s h e r e o f ( w h e th e r o r i g i n a l o r

s u b s t i t u t e d ) may a t a ny t im e o r t im e s be r em oved f r o m t h e i r

o f f i c e o f T r u s t e e b y a D ee d e x e c u te d b y th e S e t t l o r ( h e r e i n -

a f t e r c a l l e d " t h a A p p o i n t o r " ) . a n d d e l i v e r e d to th e - T r u s t e e s

a n d th e A p po i n t o r m ay b y deed exe c u t ed a n d de l i v e r ed a s •



C/L03^02/060400 17

fa

Page Fourteen

not resident in the Cayman Islands to be Trustees either

jointly with any other,then continuing Trustees or solely

if after removal'there shall not bo any continuing

Trustees and thereupon the Trust Fund shall be by such

assurance as may be necessary or expedient vested jointly

in the persons who shall thereupon become the Trustees of

the Trusts hereby created PROVIDED howev.er that an outgoing

trustee who is liable as a trustee hereof or may on the

death of any person become liable as a former trustee •

• * thereof for any income probate estate or other duties fees

or taxes shall not be bound to transfer the Trust Fund as

aforesaid unless reasonable security is provided fori

indemnifying such outgoing trustee against such liability

PROVIDED ALSO that no removal of trustees by the Appointor

shall be effective unless after such removal (either with* Vs •

or without a raw appointment) there shall remain at least

one trustee being a trust corporation or two trustees

being individuals

(b) Without prejudice to the powers contained

in sub-clause (a) of the Clause if a Trustee hereof

whether original or substituted shall die or being a

corporation be dissolved or shall desire to be discharged

from all or any of the trusts or powers hereof or shall

i*efuse or become unfit to act therein or become incapable

of acting therein then the following persons namely:

(i) The Settlor or if she shall be dead'or unable or unwilling to act

(ii) The surviving or continuing Trustees

hereof for the time being or if there be



C/L05/0 2/030400 13

V

Page Fifteen

no surviving or continuing Trustees» l •

(iii) The personal representatives of the

i last surviving Trustee if such last

i _ Trustee was an individual but if such

last Trustee was a corporation then

^ such last Trustee upon retirement may

^ m s by deed appoint one or more other persons

: .-•••. . •".»" or corporation (whether or not being ori

.including the persons exercising the» f

power) to be a Trustee-or Trustees in

the place of the Trustee so deceased

dissolved desiring to be discharged

refusing or being unfit or being

incapable as aforesaid

(c) Tha powers in Bub-clause (a) of this Clause

pm. contained may at any time be irrevocably released by a

^ deed executed by the Appointor and delivered to the

Trustees and the Appointor may in like manner revocably

or irrevocably grant the said powers to any person or

persons to take effect immediately or after the death of

the Appointor as the case may be

(d) The Trustees hereof or any of them (whether

original or substituted) may if they so desire resign as

Trustees hereunder after 30 days written notice of their

intention so to do sent by registered prepaid post to

the Appointor or such person as the Appointor may from

time to time appoint in writing such resignation shall

become effective upon the day specified in such notice of

resignation



C / L O 5 / 0 2 / 0 S Q 4 0 0

\

Page Sixteen

(e) In the event of the resignation of the

• Trustees hereof .or; in case there shall be no trustee

hereunder Guinness Mahon Bahamas Trust Company Limited or

its successors shall become substituted Trustees hereunderi i

(f) Upon the resignation or removal of the

Trustees as hereinbefore provided the Trustees shall be

entitled to receive reimbursement out of the Trust Fund for

all expenses incurred by them in connection with the settle-

ment of the account of the Trustees« •

(g) On every change in the trusteeship a

memorandum shall be endorsed on or permanently affixed

- to this Settlement stating the names of the Trustees for

the time being and shall be signed by the persons so named

and authenticated by a notary or notaries public and any

person dealing with the Trust shall be entitled to rely

upon any such memorandum (or the latest of such memoranda

^ if more than one) as sufficient evidence that the persons

named therein are the fully constituted Trustees for the

time being of this Settlement

(h) Any substituted Trustees of this Settlement

shall have all the powers conferred upon the Trustees by

law and these presents and any and all banks brokers

nominees or other depositories custodians of the Trust

Fund shall be atthorised to accept instructions from the

said substituted Trustees as to the dispositions- thereof

r ^ 9.

THE Trustees shall provide for the safekeeping of

all documents of title and securities the subject of

this /



C / L 0 5 / 0 2 / 0 3 0 4 0 0 20

Page Seventeen

this Settlement and may: at the expense of the Trust Fund

. (which expense may include any charges for the safe

custody of securities and the collection and remittance

of income) deposit the same in the custody of any bank

banking company corporate trustee or stockbroker in any

part of the world that undertakes the safe custody of

securities as part of its business but so that the Trustees

shall not be in any wise responsible for the misapplication

of the same or any of them by such banking company corporate

trustee or stockbroker or for any loss ..which may be occasioned

thereby

10. IN the event of any income probate estate or otherduties fees or taxes becoming payable in the Cayman Islands

or elsewhere in respect of the Trust Fund or any part

thereof on the death of the Settlor or of any Beneficiary

or otherwise the Trustees may at their discretion pay all

or any part of such duties fees and taxes out of the Trust

Fund without recourse against any Beneficiary or refuse

to paiy the same or any part thereof unless indemnifiedand to determine the time and manner of such payment if

any

11, NO bond shall be required of the Trustees herein

named (whether original or substituted) or if a bond should

be required by law to the extent that a waiver by the

Settlor is effective no surety shall be required on such

a bond



C / L G S / O 2 / 0 S 0 4 0 02 1

Page Eighteent

12. THIS Trust shall be irrevocable and the Settlor

v expressly waives, all right and power whether alone or in

c o n j u n c t i o n w i t h a n y o t h e r p e r s o n t o a l t e r a me nd o r revoke

t h i s S e t t l e m e n t i n w h o l e o r i n p a r t o r a s t o a n y o f i t s

t e r m s

13. THE Trustees shall not be personally liable on

•v. contract made by them in the administration of the Trust

and persons entering into contracts with the Trustees

' shall look solely to the Trust Fund

*• ••

14. WITHOOT prejudice to the right under the general

law of the Trustees to refuse disclosure of any document

• it is hereby declared that the Trustees shall not be

bound to disclose to any person any of the following

documents that is to say:

(1) Any document disclosing any deliberations

of the Trustees (or any of the Trustees) as to the manner

in which the Trustees should exercise any power or any

discretion conferred upon the Trustees by this Settlement

or disclosing the reasons for any particular exercise of

any such power or any such discretion or the material

upon which such reasons shall or m^it have been based

(2) Any other document relating to the exercise

or proposed exercise of any power or any discretion conferred

on the Trustees by this Settlement (not being legal advice

_ obtained by the Trustees at the cost of the trust estate)

AND /



C/LCS/02/030400 2 2

Page Nineteen

AND IT IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED that the TRUSTEES

' MAY PERMIT any Beneficiary' personally to inspect any copy

oI this So It lento n I or any documents rola Ling to Iho '1'rusL

at the principal office of any corporate Trustee hereoft t

but .shall not be bound to give any further, information to' . ' • •

any Beneficiary relating to the affairs of the Trust or to

permit any Beneficiary to make any copies of any documents

relating to the Trust

.15. THIS Settlement is made under the laws of the

Cayman Islands and the rights of all parties and the

construction and effect of each and every provision hereof

shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and

construed only according to the laws of the Cayman Islands

which shall be tha forum for the administration of this

Trust

PROVIDED however that the Trustees may from time

to time during the Accumulation Period by deed declare that

this Trust and the rights of all parties and the construction

and effect of the provisions hereof shall from the date of

such declaration be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction

of and construed only according to the laws of some other

jurisdiction (other than the Cayman Islands) in which one

or more of the Trustees then serving in office is resident

and that the forum for the administration of this Trust

shall thenceforth be such other jurisdiction PROVIDED

further that the Trustees may not declare that this Trustand the rights of all parties and the construction and

effect of the provisions hereof shall be subject to the

jurisdiction of and construed according to the laws of a



C/L.05/0 2/ 0604-00

». 111 '•'J

F.^T.Miii-r^tiM.^u.ri^i.m,

Page Twenty

jurisdiction which would cause a material change in the

vrights of the Beneficiaries hereunder or which would not

recognise the validity of this Trust if such non-recognition

would result in the revocation or termination of the Trust* •

16. ANY person of full age to whom or for whose

benefit any capital or income may be liable to be appointed

transferred paid or applied by or in consequence of an

exercise of any power or discration vested in the Trustees

or in any other person may by deed revocably or irrevocably

disclaim his interest as an object of such power or discretion,

either wholly or with respect to any specified part or share

of such capital or income and then such power or discretion

shall (despite anything contained elsewhere in this Deed)

pro tanto cease to be exercisable'

IN WITNESS whereof the said Elizabeth Love has set her hand

and seal and the Common Seal of Guinness Mahon Cayman

Trust Limited has been hereunto affixed the day and year

first above written

THE FIRST SCHEDULE

One Hundred Pounds Sterling (£100.00)

!THE SECOND SCHEDULE / .»



C/L05/02/060400 ' 24

Page Twenty-One

THE SECOND . SCHEDULE

1. The Settlor Elizabeth Love of "Clanricarde",i

Blackrock Soad, Cork, Ireland and her husband

or widower and issue (of whatever degree) and

her brothers and sisters and their issue (of

whatever degree) and the brothers and sisters

of her husband and their issue (of whatever

degree)

2 . Jocal Investments Halted

SIGNED SEALED andDELIVERED by theabove-named in thepresence of:

S. —•

\S 'v>.v< V — i v

THE COMMON SEAL'OP GUINNESSMHON CAYMAN^RUST LIMITED 'has been hereunto affixed inthe pre§enfce ybf:

((((((((



;:;nii20i) Ka\ r...-).•! 2 I 42T3TO-I [email protected]

: v. ' f * ' • "'•: i ? V \ \

S O L I C I T O R S V | fffl-g

Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.,

Mr. Michael C. Cush S.C.,Office of the Inspectors of Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.,3 l d Floor, Trident House,Blackrock,Co. Dublin.

RE GIS TE RE D PO ST By Fax and Post 01-283 3929

Dull' \ (i ii r relr re nee Our reference7 December, 2001. C/L05/NM COH\JM\000025\20036

RE: J . CLAYTO N LOV E JNR.

Dear Ms. Mackey & Mr. Cush,

We refer to the draft preliminary co nclusions notified by you un der cover of letter dated 20November 2001. At the outset, we are concerned that your preliminary view is somewhat atodds with the docum entation exhibited by you and upon which you state to rely. At the core ofour concern is the fact that, unlike Yale Securities Limited, Mr. Joseph C layton Love Junior

never held any account with Ansbacher.

1. Under the terms of the Order of 22 September 1999 as subsequently amended by theOrder of 8 December 2 000, the Court has appointed you and your colleagues underSection 8 of T he Com panies A ct 1990 to investigate and report on the affairs of thecompan y and in particular to define the nature and extent of the Irish business ofAnsbacher (Caym an) Limited ("Ansbacher") from 1971 to date. The Order providesthat this relates to the business carried on by Ansbacher whether in the State orotherwise on behalf of Irish residents; whether the affairs of Ansbacher wereconducted w ith intent to defraud its creditors or the creditors of any person orotherwise for a fraudulent or unlawful purpose. It is accepted that the scope of the

Order is sufficiently broad to encom pass the nature of the business which was carriedon by Ansbacher in the State, brief particulars of which are described in the Report ofthe Trinunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Paym ents). However, Mr. Lo ve has not was notinvolved in such.

2. It is submitted that you are obliged to comply with the rules of natural justice w henyou are about to make a determination on an issue which adversely affects our client.

3. The preliminary conclusion that Mr. Love was a client of Ansbacher is not true andfurther is not supported by any evidence. The con trary is the position. Th e onlyevidence is to the effect that Mr. Love was not at any stage a client of Ansbacher.

000025/20036/4903'

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l . o r m a r l\ It II LI I I IDI I m .L.. I.I.II It a i in I M i a n a l i . n i I I C1 . .I . U I . UT I J i - n n m - O S u l l i v a n ll i :l . . vlTI I ' a t r i r k .1 l l r a i l l i - y II C oln in .1.1.11 . A1TI of «hp«nd«n hwytn

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Mr. Love was instrumental in ensuring that the Elizabeth Love Trust was establishedon 23 April L971. That Trust owned Y ale Securities Limited ("Yale "). Yale advancedmon ies to M r. Love from time to time over the years. In paragraph 3 of yourpreliminary conclusion these advances are referred to as "borrowings". It is not

understood why the word borrowings is described in this fashion. The sworn evidencewhich you have is that Yale made advances to Mr. Love at his request. Mr. Love hasalready advised that no m onies were received from the Trust, but rather from YaleSecurities Lim ited. To this extent, you might am end paragraph 3 of your recitals.

Contrary to the assertion that "to date he has not made any repayments ", Mr. Love hasin fact repaid all monies advanced by Yale to him. Mr. Love furnished a statement on24 March 2000 and subsequently a clarification statement on 24 M ay 2000.Subsequently, all of Mr. Lo ve's indebtedness to Yale comprising both principal andinterest was repaid by him in or about Augu st 2000.

In relation to paragraph 2 of your recitals, we wo uld appreciate if you m ight clarifythat the source of the monies was from U.K. property transactions. In this context, werefer you to Clause 6.2 of Mr. Love's statement.

The expression that Mr. Love was a "client of Ansbacher" is both ambiguous and, wesuggest, incorrect. A client of a Bank is generally understood to mean a depositor or aborrower or perhaps a person who otherwise is provided with banking services forconsideration. Mr. Love was not a borrower of Ansbacher. He was a borrower of YaleSecurities Limited. Mr. Love does not and never has held monies with Ansbacher. Hehas never borrowed m onies from Ansbacher and he has not retained An sbacher toprovide banking services.

Your investigation has been conducted in an atmosphere of intense med ia comm entand reporting, the effect of which is that the Ansbacher depositors should be "namedand sham ed". Your R eport will no doubt have the effect of causing considerabledamage and loss of reputation to those named therein as having been depositors inAnsbacher or otherwise clients o f that bank W hile you will, pot .have any control orinfluence on the manner in which yo ur Report will be publicised, you will appreciatethat it will enter the public domain shortly after its co nclusion.

While not directly relevant to your conclusions, we are aware that the Elizabeth LoveTrust has been w ound up.

Your preliminary conclusion is also stated to be based on a memorandum prepared forthe Moriarty Tribunal by the late Mr. Hugh Coveney. You will appreciate that ourclient knows nothing of this memorandum. He has had no involvement in itspreparation. In this memorandum the late Mr. Coveney, who was a businessman andlot a lawyer, is reported to have stated that Yale represented the interest of Mr. Love inthe Lynbrette Trust. I would respectfully draw your attention to the following:-



n ' D ') N ; ? V A .NI I

i. The opening sentence of recital num ber 4 is prejudicial to our client, insofar as it

suggests that Mr. Love did not disclose the circumstances relating to the developmentnear Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A.

ii. The late Mr. Coveney died in March 1998. He has not given any evidence to you. Themem orandum is second hand hearsay. There is no evidence available to you from thelate Mr. Coveney. W e know nothing of the circumstances no r background to thefurnishing by the late Mr. Coveney of the memorandum to the Moriarty Tribunal. Thatmemorandum does not constitute evidence to you. It is certainly the case that you maynot rely upon that docum ent in the face of sworn evidence w hich contradicts it. Mr.Love has confirmed that Lynbrette was a Trust wherein Yale invested with others in aproperty venture in the United States. Businessmen such as the late Mr. Coveney and

indeed his partners in the venture might well have understood that Yale "representedMr. Love". However there was no evidence or legal basis for that view and that view ismistaken.

iii. It is surprising that you would seek to rely upon a docum ent of this nature when theother parties to Lynbrette are alive and capable of giving you sw orn evidence. Hav eyou examined Mr. Collins, Mr. Boland or Mr. Dineen? Presumably they have notgiven you evidence to indicate that Yale "represented the interests of Mr. Love" in thesense that Mr. Lo ve was the legal or beneficial own er of Yale, and presumably, youhave been un able to obtain any evidence to corroborate the assertion. W hy therefore isreliance placed on a docum ent prepared for the Moriarty Tribunal when M r. Love has

given sworn evidence to the effect that at all times in the Lynbrette transaction herepresented the interests of Yale,. That is a perfectly understandable and, we w ouldsuggest, normal po sition when one is dealing with a family Trust.

7. We enclose:-

i. Affidavit of Joseph Clayton Love Junior.

We should be obliged if you would please confirm that you will liter your preiiminaryconclusion w hich, as stated, is untrue and has not been substantiated b y evidence. Insofar asMr. Love is concerned, he would not have a difficulty in a conclusion that:-

"Yale Securities Limited was a client of Ansbacher. The Elizabeth Love Trust was the legal

an d beneficial owner of Yale Securities Limited, which company made advances to Mr. J.

Clayton Love Jnr. over a number of years. These advances have been repaid in full with

interest by Mr. Love. Yale Securities Limited was a client of Ansbacher. "

For eas ; of reference, we enclose marked up version of your draft and look forward to hearingfurther from you. If it would be of assistance, we w ould be prepared to meet w ith you toclarify any detail.



J W O ' D 0 N 0 V A N

Should y ou, notwithstanding the foregoing, decide not to alter your preliminary view to reflect

the foregoing, we confirm that we require to cross examine any witness on whose evidenceyou may rely, examine any document available to you and make oral submissions on theseissues before you com plete your report.



IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED, ANDIN THE MA TTER OF THE COM PANIES ACT 1990, SECTIO N 8 .

AFFIDAVIT OF JOSEPH CLAYTON LOVE

I, JOSEPH CLAYTO N LOVE, of Tanglewood, Currabinny, in the County of Cork,Com pany D irector, aged 18 years and upwards make Oath and say as follows:

1. I make this Affidavit from facts within my own knowledge save where otherwiseappears, and where so appearing I depose to the same believing the sam e to be true.

2. I beg to refer to the Preliminary C onclusion of the Inspectors notified to m e bylettei of 20 November 2001. That conclusion states:

"Mr. Love was a client of Ansbacher".

3. This conclusion is not true. Furthermore, it suggests that I held monies inAnsbacher, or otherwise benefited from a scheme to unlawfully evade the payment of

taxes to the State, and thereby com mit a criminal offence.

4 .1 have depo sed to the fact that I borrowed mo nies from Yale Secuities Limited, anasset of the Elizabeth Love Trust. I say and believe that this does not constitute me tobe a client of Ansbacher. Contrary to what is asserted in the Preliminary Co nclusion, Ihave repaid all monies advanced to me by Yale together with interest. That repaymentwas made in August 2000 from monies legally and beneficially owned by me andheld in the State.

5. 1 have never received a distribution from the Elizabeth Love T rust.

6. In so far as the Inspectors appear to rely on a mem orandum prepared b y the lateHugh Coveney which deals with the Lynbrette Trust, I say that Yale SecuritiesLimited w as one o f the investors in that venture, as set out previously at paragraph 6.8of my statement of 6 March 2000.1 say that Yale Securities Limited did not representmy interests, rather the conv erse.

7. I further say that I was never the legal or beneficial owner of Yale SecuritiesLimited.

000025/20036/4904AF~1.DOC



SWORN by the Deponent this f *day of December 2001 at

Carrigaline, County Cork, beforeme a Practising So licitor, and Iknow the Deponent.

:TISING SOLICITOR

000025/20036/4904AF-1 DO C



SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE

MADE BY MR. 0'HANLON, SOLICITOR

ON WEDNESDAY, 20TH MARCH 2002






Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors: MS. N. MACKEY BL

MR. M. CUSH SC

Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS

Submissions on behalf of

Mr. Clayton Love: MR. C. 0'HANLON SOLICITOR

J.W. 0'DONOVAN & CO

SOLICITORS



1 SUBMISSIONS BY MR. CORMAC O'HANLON, SOLICITOR ON

2 BEHALF OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE, COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON

3 WEDNESDAY, 20TH MARCH 2002:

4

5 MS. MACKEY: Good morning,

6 Mr. 0'Hanlon.

7 I am Noreen Mackey and this is Mr. Cush.

8 MR. O'HANLON: Good morning to you.

9 I recall from the last

10 time. Mr. Cush was not

11 here on the last occasion.

12 MS. MACKEY: We have come along this

13 morning really to hear

14 your submissions or to hear your speaking about your

15 written submissions. What we propose to do is

16 listen to you. If you wish, you can wait until the

17 very end and then we can ask you questions that

18 might arise or we can engage with you as we go

19 along.

2 0 MR. O'HANLON: You deal with it as you

21 see fit.

22 MS. MACKEY: Whichever suits you.

23 MR. O'HANLON: I have prepared a

24 very brief note which is

25 very largely repetitious. In a sense I am not too

26 sure that there is an awful lot to be said for going

27 through this line by line. The first item --

28 really I think it is important to begin at the

29 beginning so to speak -- as to what the High Court

3



1 order appointing you requires you to do: It seems

2 to me that the raison d'etre of this inquiry was

3 essentially that the company was carrying on a

4 banking business in the State without a banking

5 licence. This was obviously a matter of great

6 surprise and shock arising out of the McCracken

7 report and the extent indeed of the business carried

8 on by Ansbacher in the State clearly on behalf of

9 Irish residents. That so to speak is the

10 background. That is the canvass upon which

11 obviously your enquiries are directed. That is

12 what the order focuses the attention on, namely the

13 extent of the business carried on by Ansbacher in

14 this State for Irish residents or indeed elsewhere

15 for Irish residents.

16

17 Turning to the actual facts, the facts seem to me to

18 be largely accepted by you on the basis of the

19 preliminary conclusions which you have drawn.

20 It is a matter of interpretation in one or two

21 specific instances. But just to go back on what

22 those were: Mr. Love was not the settlor of the

23 Elizabeth Love Trust but there is no doubt but that

24 he was the instrumental party in having the

25 Elizabeth Love Trust established. The purpose of

26 it was not tax evasion or indeed tax avoidance.

27 There may have been an element of tax avoidance.

28 But primarily because of his apprehension of

29 financial difficulties he was advised to do it.

4



1 He thought it a good idea. He sought professional

2 advice and he did it. We have eventually, as you

3 know after the last occasion, got the trust

4 document. The trust document I suspect is as one

5 would expect a document of this nature to be.

6 It is not the form of document which I rather

7 suspect you may have seen here dealing with other

8 parties. It is a properly constituted trust

9 document.

10

11 The funding of the trust was from external assets.

12 In other words, there was no question of assets

13 generated within the Irish State being chanelled to

14 initially Jersey but later to Cayman.

15 1 Q. MR. CUSH: This is all the Elizabeth

16 Love Trust?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: All of the Elizabeth Love

18 Trust, yes.

19 Mr. Love himself and essentially his family -- the

20 potential beneficiaries are the wider family,

21 Mrs. Love's spouse, children, brothers, sisters, the

22 normal potential family beneficiaries. In the

23 event there has been one distribution from that

24 trust. In other words, it was largely wound up in

25 August 2000.

26 2 Q. MS. MACKEY: That is the distribution?

27 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes, that is the

28 distribution.

29 Yale was the creature, the trading creature of the

5



1 trust. It was the wealth generator of the trust,

2 so it was the engine by which wealth was to be

3 created. You may recall Mr. Love's evidence in

4 relation to the advances made to him. He was

5 advised firstly that there was no circumstance in

6 which he could get a distribution from the trust

7 because it would be subject to tax. If he had

8 borrowed money from the trust it had to be subject

9 to interest. He received advances, small advances

10 I think initially. And indeed from recollection,

11 over the first 10 or 15 years the advances were

12 small but later more substantial. He has given

13 evidence in relation to that. He has given

14 evidence in relation to the methodology by which it

15 was done, all essentially via Mr. Traynor. You

16 asked for written documents in relation to that.

17 Loan agreements, what one might call standard

18 banking documentation. It isn't there; there are

19 no such documents. Is that surprising? I would

20 say not terribly surprising. It is a family trust.

21 If one were advising the trustees, one might say

22 'You shouldn't be doing it this way.' But we are

23 now looking back at what was done maybe five, ten,

24 twenty years ago, and they didn't do it that way.

25 But he was told 'If you want an advance from the

26 trust through Yale, it will be done this way' and

27 the money was made available to him. He had to

28 repay the money and in the event has repaid all of

29 that money plus interest. The amount of that was

6



1 very substantial. I think you have seen the

2 accounts. These accounts incidentally were not

3 furnished to Mr. Love, they were furnished to his

4 daughter who was the ultimate beneficiary. But

5 they give you an idea of the magnitude of what you

6 are looking at.

7

8

3 Q. MR. CUSH: Did Mr. Love not seek

these accounts?

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: He sought the accounts.

10 4 Q. MR. CUSH: They weren't provided?

11 A. MR. O'HANLON: They were not provided to

12 him. From recollection,

13 the only account he said he ever saw through the

14 years of the advances was a memorandum account or a

15 statement.

16 5 Q. MR. CUSH: Statement of affairs from

17 Mr. Traynor?

18 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. Specifically in

19 fact I was looking for

20 those because I thought that would be of

21 considerable value to us if we had those, but we

22 don't have them and he doesn't have them. He said

23 all that was ever done was that he was shown a copy

24 of a statement or a memorandum account.

25 6 Q. MS. MACKEY: On what basis did they

26 provide them to his

27 daughter and not to himself?

28 A. MR. O'HANLON: Because she became the

29 ultimate beneficiary.



1 7 Q. MS. MACKEY: In the second schedule

2 here we just have a group or class of potential

3 beneficiaries. She is not particularly named in

4 any special way?

5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: But the structure of the

6 trust is essentially

7 discretionary within a class. The trustees made a

8 distribution within the class and that is the end of

9 it.

10 8 Q. MS. MACKEY: They made them to her you

11 mean?

12 A. MR. 0'HANLON: To her. She was the

13 beneficiary. So the

14 trust has in fact been wound up. The distribution

15 has been made and the distribution was August 2000.

16 9 Q. MR. CUSH: The accounts were provided

17 to her then?

18 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Accounts were then

19 provided to her because

20 there was a tax calculation in relation to that

21 distribution. And that is a matter for her.

22 10 Q. MR. CUSH: But there is no reason why

23 accounts wouldn't be

24 provided before?

25 A. MR. 0'HANLON: To?

26 11 Q. MR. CUSH: To anyone in the class of

27 beneficiaries?

2 8 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Wrong, no.

29 12 Q. MS. MACKEY: Particularly to the person

8



1 who is able to borrow

2 money?

3 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, I think that is very

4 important. I can set up

5 a trust today and I can name everybody in this room

6 as a potential beneficiary, but you are entitled to

7 absolutely nothing. You are a potential

8 beneficiary until such time as the trustees say

9 'Right, here is the distribution to you.' You then

10 have a right from that moment on, but before that

11 you are only a potential beneficiary.

12 13 Q. MS. MACKEY: But what about the person

13 who in fact was the mover,

14 the motivating person, Mr. Love, who was able to

15 obtain loans. Was he not entitled to some

16 documentation? How did he become entitled to get a

17 loan?

18 A. MR. O'HANLON: Can we move one step back

19 first of all. When you

20 say the prime mover - he is not the settlor,

21 Mrs. Love was the settlor of this trust. That

22 said, of course he was instrumental in setting it

2 3 up.

2 4 14 Q. MS. MACKEY: What do you mean by that?

25 A. MR. O'HANLON: It was he who had it

26 established. It was he

27 who sought advice, got advice. The purpose of it

28 was the protection of his family.

2 9 15 Q. MS. MACKEY: They were his funds?

9



1 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, they were not.

2 No, they were not his funds. No monies of his have

3 ever ended up in this trust.

4 16 Q. MS. MACKEY: Whose funds were settled

5 on it?

6 A. MR. 0'HANLON: They were settled on

7

8

various companies.

You may remember UK Investments. Those companies

9 were actually held by companies which in turn were

10 held by Yale which in turn were held by the trust.

11 17 Q. MS. MACKEY: Who was the ultimate owner

12 of those funds, the

13 ultimate beneficial owner of the funds that I am

14 talking about?

15 A. MR. 0'HANLON: The very first funds?

16 18 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes?

17 A. MR. 0'HANLON: You may remember in the

18 statement -- we can go

19 back through it if you wish -- that with the very

20 first funds there was a trust in the Channel Islands

21 which was his trust, the Clayton Love Channel Island

22 Trust. Those funds came across to Cayman.

23 Mrs. Love I think had a trust -- I may be mistaken

24 in that -- in the Channel Islands as well. There

25 was an initial figure of something like £50,000 or

26 £70,000 which was generated from profits in the UK

27 on foot of some property transaction. Those were

28 simply in the Channel Islands and those monies were

29 moved from the Channel Islands to the Cayman

10



1 Islands.

2 19 Q. MS. MACKEY: Were they Mr. Love's or

3 Mrs. Love's originally

4 looking at the thing realistically?

5 A. MR. O'HANLON: What does "realistically "

6 mean?

7 20 Q. MS. MACKEY: Who really owned the

8 funds?

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Does that mean legally

10 because if it is legally

11 the answer may not be...(INTERJECTION)

12 21 Q. MS. MACKEY: Legally the company?

13 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes.

14 22 Q. MS. MACKEY: But who was the ultimate

15 beneficiary of the company

16 if you like?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: May I turn to paragraph

18 5.4 of his original

19 statement, Exhibit I. I will read it to you.

20 It says:

21 "In the events I identified someinteresting opportunities in London in

22 association with GMPC [Guinness MahonProperty Company] and we began

23 assembling a site for a major officedevelopment in the Whitechapel area of

24 London. A large number of interestshad to be acquired and many of these

25 were surplus to our needs. It wasnevertheless important for us to buy in

26 these interests so as to develop thesite. This acquisition took a number

27 of years to achieve. Interests whichwere surplus to requirements were

28 disposed of and this resulted in thegeneration of profits of circa

29 £75,000/£80,000 to which I will referlater."

11



2 That was essentially the seed capital.

3 23 Q. MS. MACKEY: I think that answers the

4 question I was trying to

5 get at. We have moved away from the question I

6 asked you first, which started off this train of

7 thought. Mr. Love was, I used the phrase, the prime

8 mover. But he was the motivating force

9 originally?

10 A. MR. O'HANLON: I think prime mover is

11 actually fine.

12 He was the wealth generator.

13 24 Q. MS. MACKEY: The wealth generator.

14 That is a good phrase.

15 He was the wealth generator and in those

16 circumstances allied to the fact that the trustees

17 saw fit to make loans to him, was he not entitled to

18 get statements?

19 A. MR. O'HANLON: Statement of indebtedness,

20 yes.

21 25 Q. MS. MACKEY: But statements of affairs,

22 statements of accounts

23 such as these?

24 A. MR. O'HANLON: No. That really is a

25 matter for the trustees

2 6 and I cannot answer it. He didn't. He was shown

27 a statement. He didn't question it.

28 26 Q. MR. CUSH: I don't think he knew who

29 the trustees were, is that

12



1 right?

2 A. MR. 0'HANLON: In fact when he was here

3 he said he didn't. He gave evidence as to whether

4 he knew and you may remember his answers. In the

5 event he was wrong in a number of respects. But

6 anyway the trust document was later obtained.

7 And that shows the position because there was a

8 question, for example, from Judge Costello who was

9 wondering whether there was a question of

10 accountants being the settlors effectively, which

11 again one has read about as being an unusual

12 mechanism which was adopted apparently in a number

13 of similar transactions. I am simply adverting to

14 that to show that that was not the methodology used

15 here. And the methodology used here was one which

16 one would normally expect in the establishment of a

17 trust.

18 27 Q. MR. CUSH: On the face of it, it

19 would appear that it is a

20 perfectly properly constituted trust?

21 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Correct.

22 28 Q. MR. CUSH: Where some of the concern

23 arises is as to its

24 operation and particularly to the borrowing?

25 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Indeed and whether there

26 were borrowings at all.

27 29 Q. MR. CUSH: And whether they were real

28 borrowings at all?

29 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Exactly. Here is the

13



1 acid test. They have repaid, they have been repaid

2 with interest. We are not talking about £20,000 or

3 £40,000 or £50,000 or £100,000. This is on top of

4 his own sworn evidence. You see, I am reluctant to

5 advert to his own evidence in relation to his

6 friendship with Des Traynor. But you are talking

7 about people there who go way back when, very close

8 friends. Des Traynor was his business adviser.

9 You may recall in his statement the family

10 background was a particularly unhappy, fractious

11 background. Well known but particularly fractious

12 at a young age in life contrary to popular belief

13 with the golden spoon in the mouth and so on.

14 It wasn't like that; he actually left the business

15 but quite quickly was a success. But thereafter

16 the insecurity of the self-employed, and the

17 insecurity is real. He was particularly conscious

18 of that. He gave that as the raison d'etre for

19 this. It may have been clever. From a tax

20 avoidance point of view very clever but he was

21 advised that it was perfectly legitimate provided it

22 was not effectively funded from assets within the

23 State. And furthermore, no distributions were made

24 to him because if they were he would simply have to

25 pay tax on the distributed income as it came into

26 the State. That is the way it was set up. It may

27 not have been in its operation. It may not have

28 been perfect. It may not have followed every line,

29 dotted every "i" or crossed every "t" but this is

14



1 the way it was done. We are now many years later

2 looking back at a situation and looking at it I

3 suppose in association with other people whose

4 affairs are certainly not known to me but would be

5 known to you. I suspect it is quite dissimilar

6 frankly to many of those. There may be

7 similarities with others, I don't know. It may

8 have been, I rather suspect, that you have common

9 advisers. But you may recall his own evidence in

10 relation to what he knew or didn't know of

11 Des Traynor, and they were very, very close friends.

12 Hugh Coveney was a particularly good friend of his.

13 He said he was not aware that Des was an adviser to

14 Hugh Coveney. That tells you a little something

15 of the relationship between the two. And if Des

16 Traynor 'Here is a statement. This is what is

17 there. This is what you owe' that was enough for

18 him.

19 30 Q. MR. CUSH: Is that what the

20 statement of affairs

21 showed? We have evidence from Mr. Love saying that

22 he got statements of affairs maybe once a year on a

23 blank sheet of paper. One got the impression from

24 reading the transcript that it was a pretty informal

25 presentation?

26 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I took it from that to be

27 an extremely informal

28 presentation. I wasn't entirely clear as to

2 9 whether, for example, it meant what you and I might

15



1 understand to be a statement of affairs, as in

2 assets, liabilities or whatever. It may have been a

3 bank account. It may have shown the extent of the

4 trust and what its obligations were and fees were or

5 something like that. Presumably these trustees and

6 these people are paid every year. Something of

7 that nature but I am not entirely clear about it.

8 31 Q. MR. CUSH: Is there evidence to

9 demonstrate that the

10 statement of affairs such as it was showed the

11 borrowing by Mr. Love?

12 A. MR. O'HANLON: I cannot say that that is

13 the position because he

14 didn't say it was. He didn't say it was in the

15 transcript.

16 32 Q. MR. CUSH: I don't think he did?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: That is my point and

18 therefore I cannot say

19 that he did. His recollection of what was in those

20 documents was extremely hazy.

21 33 Q. MR. CUSH: He was very straight about

22 it?

23 A. MR. O'HANLON: Extremely hazy so I cannot

24 say the answer to that is

25 yes.

2 6 34 Q. MS. MACKEY: To get a few dates

27 straight in my own head,

28 Mr. O'Hanlon. The trust was wound up on that final

29 distribution. That distribution that you mentioned

16



1 to the daughter was made on what date?

2 A. MR. 0'HANLON: August 2000.

3 35 Q. MS. MACKEY: The repayment of the loan

4 was made when?

5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: At or about that time.

6 36 Q. MR. CUSH: Sometime post September

7 1999, before August 2000?

8 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Exactly. It was after he

9 was here and prior to the

10 winding up.

11 37 Q. MS. MACKEY: But you don't have the

12 exact date?

13 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't have the exact

14 date but I can provide the

15 exact date. It would be very easy to provide the

16 exact date on which the monies were paid. But I

17 know it is between those two dates.

18 38 Q. MR. CUSH: The statements of affairs

19 that he got from

20 Mr. Traynor, he didn't keep those?

21 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, he didn't because of

22 course that would have

23 been extremely useful. But again, one is going

24 back how many years? But again he just doesn't have

25 them. In fact he didn't have anything frankly

26 other than the most recent accounts. He doesn't

27 keep records of that nature.

28 39 Q. MR. CUSH: Then the accounts,

29 Exhibit II.

17



1 I understand now that they were provided to Mr.

2 Love's daughter?


4 40 Q. MR. CUSH: What do you know about the

5 intervening years

6 preparation of accounts. Were they even prepared?

7 A. MR. O'HANLON: We don't know. We asked

8 for accounts in fact.

9 41 Q. MR. CUSH: And you got them this

10 year. There is obviously

11 a previous year?

12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Of course there is,

13 exactly.

14 42 Q. MR. CUSH: That might suggest that

15 previous years have been

16 prepared. It might?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: For example, if it is a

18 limited liability company,

19 one would assume that the company had to be audited

20 every year.

21 43 Q. MR. CUSH: It should have been.

22 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know what the

23 obligation in the Cayman

24 is in relation to these matters but one would assume

25 that it was. Unfortunately, this is the only thing

26 that has not been made available to us. Mr. Love

27 had asked for this, but frankly any enquiry of that

28 nature simply went into the sand.

2 9 44 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did his daughter get this

18



1 as a matter of course once

2 the distribution was made or did she ask for it?

3 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, it was actually

4 provided, Exhibit II.

5 45 Q. MS. MACKEY: It was sent to her?

6 A. MR. O'HANLON: It was sent to her.

7 46 Q. MS . MACKEY: It is not signed,

8 Exhibit II?

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: I noticed that.

10 You will notice it is

11 unaudited.

12 47 Q. MR. CUSH: The difficulty really is

13 that there are a number of

14 indications that the assets of the trust were being

15 treated by Mr. Love as a loan if they are not

16 borrowings ?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: If they are not

18 borrowings. You see, it

19 is a huge jump to say that they are not. I am sure

20 if I was sitting where you are sitting, that would

21 be my immediate suspicion.

22 48 Q. MR. CUSH: On the one side we have

23 Mr. Love's sworn

24 testimony. We have these accounts which show them

25 as a loan?

26 A. MR. O'HANLON: You have the repayments.

27 49Q.

MR. CUSH: And we have repayment.

28 So they are the three

29 indications that they were borrowings?

19



1 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Essentially what you have

2 against that is what I

3 might call the informality of the availability of

4 the funds.

5 50 Q. MS. MACKEY: And the long period of

6 time?

7 A. MR. 0'HANLON: And the long period of

8 time.

9 51 Q. MS. MACKEY: The very long period of

10 time.

11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: It is a very long period

12 of time. But then again,

13 why is that surprising? If he was the wealth

14 creator which indeed he was. If the net effect of

15 the advancing of funds to him was ultimately to

16 benefit the trust, which it was. It mightn't have

17 worked out that way of course. Again, if you were

18 the respective trustees you might have a very

19 different view

20 52 Q. MR. CUSH: No trustee acting properly

21 should make advances from

22 the trust on no terms it would appear, whether terms

23 as to repayment..(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Terms were agreed as to

25 repayment. You mean as

26 to fixed interest or a fixed time period?

27 53 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes.

28 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Absolutely

29 54 Q. MR. CUSH: What were the rates of

20



1 interest?

2 A. MR. O'HANLON: The rates of interest were

3 1.5% above deposit rate.

4 55 Q. MR. CUSH: That is what has been

5 done?

6 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, that was the agreement

7 and that was his sworn

8 evidence as well. Again, historically, I suspect

9 it was reasonably generous for the 1970's, but then

10 again his own evidence was that we have all

11 forgotten that in times of hyper-inflation that

12 equalled 17% at various times and when banks's

13 margins were more generous perhaps than they are

14 today. I take the point that if any of us were

15 trustees, that that is not the way you would set it

16 up. But then again, do consider that the success

17 of the trust was to a large extent part and parcel

18 of his ability. In other words, the trust would

19 generate profit if he was successful. This wasn't

20 a trust in the normal sense I suppose of a single

21 settlement and this is to be used in perpetuity for

22 these beneficiaries or for specific periods of time

23 or for specific beneficiaries and for specific

24 purposes. He was the wealth generator of the

25 trust. He was the entrepreneur. Investing £100

26 in AIB might give you £4 a year. Investing £100

27 with him might give you £50,000 if successful.

28 You might lose it just as well. Within that

29 context it is perhaps not entirely surprising.

21



1 It is not entirely surprising because effectively

2 the benefit of the advances was to generate wealth,

3 as it did.

4 56 Q. MS. MACKEY: As the beneficiary?

5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: As it actually did.

6 But as I say, it could

7 have been the other way around.

8 57 Q. MS. MACKEY: Supposing Mr. Love had

9 been unable to repay the

10 loan?

11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Then the trustees would

12 have a cause of action

13 against him.

14 58 Q. MS. MACKEY: But when would that have

15 been ascertained?

16 There was no date by which he had to repay it?

17 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Presumably the legal

18 position would be that the

19 money would be repayable on demand. If monies are

20 advanced...(INTERJECTION)

21 MS. MACKEY: The actual repayment - was

22 that as a result of a

2 3 demand?

24 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, I don't believe so.

25 59 Q. MR. CUSH: What about the

26 distribution to the

27 daughter? What evidence, if any, do you have of the

28 trustees exercising a discretion to make that

29 distribution?

22



1 A. MR. O'HANLON: The payment to her?

2 60 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes. But apart from that

3 is there any other

4 evidence?

5 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, but I can provide you

6 with an affidavit I

7 presume from her?

8 61 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes.

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Only to say she received

10 it. But other than that,

11 the trustees haven't given their internal

12 machinations as to how they arrive at her and not

13 others.

14 62 Q. MS. MACKEY: How did that circumstance

15 arise? Was there some

16 correspondence from the trustees first saying

17 'We are now minded to make a distribution' or was it

18 initiated from this end or how did this suddenly

19 come about?

20 A. MR. O'HANLON: It couldn't be initiated

21 from this end.

22 63 Q. MS. MACKEY: What happened?

23 A. MR. O'HANLON: It simply couldn't be

24 initiated from this end.

25 64 Q. MS. MACKEY: So what happened?

26 A. MR. O'HANLON: She received it.

27 65 Q. MS. MACKEY: Suddenly out of the blue

28 like that?

2 9 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know. I am not

23



1 privy to her affairs.

2 I don't actually know precisely what she received or

3 didn't receive other than the fact that she received

4 a distribution.

5 66 Q. MS. MACKEY: She has provided Mr. Love

6 with these statements?

7 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Precisely.

8 67 Q. MS. MACKEY: Presumably there was also

9 a covering letter winding

10 up the trust or some such document?

11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't know. I don't

12 know what she got other

13 than the fact that I know she got it.

14 68 Q. MS. MACKEY: If there is, would it not

15 be relevant to our

16 investigation to have that as part of the trust

17 documents?

18 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Certainly if it exists.

19 69 Q. MS. MACKEY: There must have been

20 something coming to her.

21 She didn't get a cheque in the post and nothing

22 else.

23 70 Q. MR. CUSH: Presumably some sort of a

24 statement that the

25 trustees have decided to make a distribution to her

26 and here is the cheque or whatever?

27 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't know is the short

28 answer. I am not privy

2 9 to that, I don't know.

24



1 71 Q. MR. CUSH: Would you mind making

2 enquiries?

3 A. MR. O'HANLON: Not at all, absolutely

4 not. Of her?

5 72 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes, of her.

6 73 Q. MS. MACKEY: Does she live here?

7 A. MR. O'HANLON: She does live in Ireland.

8 74 Q. MS. MACKEY: It may be that it would be

9 necessary for us to

10 interview her and ultimately to find out how the

11 thing was wound up?

12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed. I can found out

13 exactly what is there and

14 provide that.

15 75 Q. MS. MACKEY: Any correspondence she

16 received in relation to

17 the winding up of the trust or the distribution

18 would be relevant. Or communications of any kind.

19 If she had, for example, a telephone call from

20 Cayman or whatever, some communication made with

21 them.

22 76 Q. MR. CUSH: And I suppose just to be

23 clear, some confirmation

24 that there is no arrangement as between her and her

25 father in relation to the fund?

26 A. MR. O'HANLON: Absolutely. I can assure

27 you there isn't. I know

28 that.

29 77 Q. MS. MACKEY: Presumably there must have

25



1 also been some decision on

2 the part of the trustees as to why the entire

3 distribution was made to her rather than to...Does

4 she have brothers and sisters alive?

5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: She would have two

6 brothers.

7 78 Q. MS. MACKEY: Still living?

8 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Yes, two brothers.

9 79 Q. MS. MACKEY: And the other beneficiary

10 is listed here, the

11 mother. Is she still living?

12 MR. 0'HANLON: She is alive. Mr. Love

13 would be I guess in his

14 mid 70's. She is slightly older. Her health is

15 not good. She has Alzheimers.

16 80 Q. MS. MACKEY: There are her brothers and

17 sisters. There is the

18 settlor, herself, her husband Mr. Love himself and

19 their issue which takes in the daughter. There are

20 her brothers and sisters and Mr. Love's brothers and

21 sisters and their issue?

22 A. MR. 0'HANLON: There is the wider family.

23 81 Q. MS. MACKEY: So there was quite a large

24 class of potential

25 beneficiaries, and in the event it all came to one.

26 It was picked it would seem almost arbitrarily but

27 presumably there was some decision made?

28 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Presumably. But that is

29 a matter for the trustees

26



1 and I am not sure ...(INTERJECTION)

2 82 Q. MS. MACKEY: Absolutely. But I am

3 wondering whether that

4 would have been notified to her?

5 A. MR. O'HANLON: As to the reason why her

6 8 3 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes, why she hit the

7 jackpot as it were?

8 84 Q. MR. CUSH: Is there anything else on

9 that trust that you want

10 to say to us. You might want to say something

11 about the Lynbrette Trust?

12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Lynbrette was simply a

13 venture, that is all it

14 was. It was another venture of Yale unsuccessful.

15 This was one of the unsuccessful ones as it happens.

16 Singularly and startlingly unsuccessful from

17 recollection but it was an unsuccessful venture.

18 I don't think there is much more to be said about

19 that unless you have some specific queries about it?

20 85 Q. MS. MACKEY: You would agree that Yale

21 was one of the potential

22 beneficiaries?

23 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes. It was a Yale

24 venture. There is no

25 argument about that. But again, as we would see

26 it, it was the confusion of Mr. Love and Yale

27 understandably.

28 8 6 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes. Could you say

29 something about that,

27



1 Mr. O'Hanlon. Do you have our preliminary

2 conclusion there, Exhibit III?

3 A. MR. O'HANLON: I do.

4 8 7 Q. MS. MACKEY: Would you look at number

5 five, the most recent one

6 where we talk about Yale.

7 A. MR. O'HANLON: You say:

8 "A further Ansbacher involvementconcerns a consortium formed to carry

9 out a development near Phoenix,Arizona, USA. Upon the advice of

10 Mr. Des Traynor of GMI, a scheme wasconstructed involving the establishment

11 of a discretionary trust, (theLynbrette Trust) of which GMCT was the

12 Trustee. The Trust had asbeneficiaries five Cayman companies.

13 Four of these represented the interestsof four of the participants. The14 fifth company was Yale, and Mr. Love

has informed the Inspectors through his

15 solicitor that in the consortium herepresented the interests of Yale

16 rather than the converse. In view ofthe conclusion reached by the

17 Inspectors at paragraph 4, theInspectors are of the view that the

18 interests of Yale and those ofMr. Love are identical, and that in

19 fact he was a de facto potentialbeneficiary of the Lynbrette Trust."

20

21 What we say in relation to that is that Lynbrette

22 was a creature of Yale.

23 88 Q. MS. MACKEY: A creature of Yale?

24 A. MR. O'HANLON: A creature of Yale.

25 Sorry, Yale was the

26 potential beneficiary of the success of Lynbrette or

27 failure of Lynbrette. One of the potential

28 beneficiaries of that success. Mr. Love's

29 involvement in Yale is simply via the Elizabeth Love

28



1 Trust as a potential beneficiary. But he was a

2 wealth generator for the Elizabeth Love Trust/Yale.

3 8 9 Q. MS. MACKEY: To be clear in my own mind

4 as to the connection between Lynbrette and the

5 Elizabeth Love Trust insofar as this venture is

6 concerned -- and indeed it is what happened.

7 Lynbrette failed; that property venture failed --

8 Yale took the flack?

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Correct.

10 90 Q. MS. MACKEY: Is it the case that the

11 Elizabeth Trust took the

12 flack?

13 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. Its asset was

14 reduced in consequence of

15 that fiasco.

16 91 Q. MS. MACKEY: Is it the case then that

17 the funds used in the

18 Lynbrette venture came from the Elizabeth Love

19 Trust?

2 0 A. MR. O'HANLON: It came from Yale.

21 92 Q. MS. MACKEY: Where did Yale get them?

22 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yale had them; I don't

2 3 know.

24 93 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did they borrow them from

25 the trust?

2 6 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know. I presume

27 Yale had funds from day

28 one.

2 9 94 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did Yale not hold the

29



1 funds of the Elizabeth

2 Love Trust. Is that not what Yale is doing in the

3 context of the Elizabeth Love Trust?

4 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes. Yale was simply a

5 creature of the Elizabeth

6 Love Trust and it used whatever funds were available

7 to either invest or advance. So this was therefore

8 an investment.

9 95 Q. MS. MACKEY: So it held all the funds

10 of the trust?

11 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed, correct.

12 96 Q. MS. MACKEY: And it invested and it did

13 various things?

14 A. MR. O'HANLON: Correct.

15 97 Q. MS. MACKEY: One of the investments

16 that was made was this?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: Was Lynbrette, correct.

18 I don't think there is any

19 great area of contention in relation to this.

20 98 Q. MS. MACKEY: There may not be

21 contention but I want to

22 be clear in my mind where Mr. Love comes into this.

23 As I understand the whole Lynbrette scheme, a

24 consortium was formed to carry out a development?

2 5 A. MR. O'HANLON: Correct.

2 6 99 Q. MS. MACKEY: That comprised a certain

27 number of American

28 businessmen and five Irish businessmen, of whom one

29 is Mr. Love?

30



1 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, Yale. Mr. Love

2 wasn't party to it, Yale

3 was the party to it.

4 100 Q. MS. MACKEY: To the whole development;

5 Mr. Love was not party at

6 all?

7 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, Yale was party to it.

8 101 Q. MR. CUSH: This is why you say

9 that Mr. Love represented

10 the interests of Yale?

11 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. The success or

12 failure of Lynbrette was

13 to fall to Yale, not to Mr. Love.

14 102 Q. MS. MACKEY: When you say that he

15 represented the interests

16 of Yale, what do you mean by that?

17 A. MR. O'HANLON: I mean that in a sense he

18 was a mere trustee, that

19 he was an agent for Yale. If money was made, Yale

20 gained. If money is lost, Yale loses not Mr. Love

21 personally. It is simply another aspect of him

22 being hopefully the wealth generator or loss

23 generator in this instance for Yale, no more than

24 that.

25 103 Q. MS. MACKEY: But is it not perhaps

26 another indication of

27 Mr. Love's ability in an indirect fashion to use the

28 funds of the Elizabeth Love Trust?

29 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't think so at all.

31



1 His motivation in all of

2 this was to generate wealth for the Elizabeth Love

3 Trust for his family. This is simply part of that.

4 104 Q. MS. MACKEY: But surely insofar as Yale

5 as a creature of the

6 Elizabeth Love Trust would be investing or doing

7 various things, it would be the trustees who would

8 be doing the investing? Here we have Mr. Love

9 acting as some kind of agent for the trust, in fact

10 deciding on an investment, risking funds?

11 A. MR. O'HANLON: But you see, that is not

12 the way in fact.

13 The trustees effectively would make advances to

14 Mr. Love.

15 105 Q. MS. MACKEY: Was this an advance they

16 made? I am looking now

17 at this investment into the Lynbrette scheme which

18 on your submission is an investment made by Yale?


20 106 Q. MS. MACKEY: And Yale is the company

21 that runs the Elizabeth

22 Love fund?


24 107 Q. MS. MACKEY: The whole purpose of the

25 trustees of the trust are

26 to manage the funds, to ensure they are properly

27 invested, to do all the running of them and so on.

28 And therefore, if any of the Yale funds were to be

29 used in such a scheme, I would have thought that the

32



1 trustees would be the ones to decide they were to do

2 so?

3 A. MR. O'HANLON: But who is to say that

4 they didn't?

5 108 Q. MS. MACKEY: We see no indication.

6 What we see is Mr. Love.

7 He is the only person we see?

8 A. MR. O'HANLON: Of course because you

9 don't see the trustees and

10 they are not here. But who is to say what went on

11 in relation to that?

12 109 Q. MR. CUSH: Mr. Love might be able to

13 say that he asked the

14 trustees or negotiated with them or persuaded them

15 endless things.

16 110 Q. MS. MACKEY: If he saw this property

17 opportunity, this

18 development opportunity, this investment

19 opportunity, and he felt that this would be a good

20 chance for the trust to make some money, wouldn't he

21 have to at least contact the trustees and say

22 'There is an opportunity available. Someone has

23 approached me about this.'

24 A. MR. O'HANLON: For a start, I am quite

25 sure he has never ever

26 spoken to any trustee because he never knew who the

27 trustees were. Therefore any negotiations he had

28 was through Mr. Traynor or any discussions he had

2 9 was through Mr. Traynor. He didn't give evidence

33



1 from recollection in relation to that aspect of it

2 other than generally about what occurred. So I

3 assume that in relation to this, the financing of it

4 was dealt with by Mr. Traynor and presumably

5 Mr. Traynor said 'Yale does X and Yale does Y.'

6 111 Q. MS. MACKEY: I don't think we have any

7 evidence of that in

8 relation to him?

9 A. MR. O'HANLON: It should be easy enough

10 to check that Mr. Love as

11 to what his recollection is of exactly how it was

12 financed.

13 112 Q. MS. MACKEY: The two things are

14 interlinked in that sense?

15 A. MR. O'HANLON: They are; I appreciate the

16 point.

17 113 Q. MR. CUSH: There are a couple of

18 things that you might be

19 able to help us with. Aside from

20 that...(INTERJECTION)?

21 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, I think we will.

22 Just to recap if I may:

23 The date of repayment by Mr. Love is number one.

24 Secondly, the statement of affairs from Yale as to

25 what was in these documents. The trustees to

26 Mr. Love's daughter in terms of the distribution as

27 to what documentation there is. Confirmation that

28 there was no agreement, tacit or otherwise, between

29 the daughter and the father. Does the daughter

34



1 know why she was the lucky one.

2 114 Q. MS. MACKEY: I think that would all

3 come within the category

4 of documents relating to the distribution?

5 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed. And finally

6 Yale's involvement in

7 Lynbrette.

8 115 Q. MS. MACKEY: With Mr. Love's

9 recollection of it.

10 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed and exactly how the

11 financing....Did he not

12 say in relation to it....I certainly read somewhere

13 that it was Mr. Traynor who arranged the financing

14 of that.

15 116 Q. MR. CUSH: The structures.

16 A. MR. O'HANLON: That is as far frankly as

17 I know of that. I have

18 certainly come across that aspect of it.

19 117 Q. MS. MACKEY: He certainly advised about

20 the construction of the

21 scheme.

22 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed.

2 3 118 Q. MS. MACKEY: I don't remember anything

24 being said -- but I might

25 be wrong -- about the financing?

26 A. MR. O'HANLON: If you would leave

27 that with me and I will

28 get that as soon as I can.

29 119 Q. MR. CUSH: In terms of timing?

35



1 A. MR. O'HANLON: I suppose you want to

2 lock-up shop.

3 If we say ten days or something like that?

4 120 Q. MS. MACKEY: If we could have it before

5 Easter?

6 A. MR. O'HANLON: That would be fine.

7 121 Q. MS. MACKEY: Actually by Thursday

8 evening, 28th March, if

9 that is possible because we will be closed on the

10 Friday.

11

12 END OF SUBMISSIONS BY MR O'HANLON ON BEHALF OF

13 MR. CLAYTON LOVE

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

36



Appendix XV (68) Mr Bryan Lynam

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrByran Lynam

a) Unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 June 2000.

b) Letter of 22 June 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Solicitor to theInspectors.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Bryan Lynam.

Letter of 21 August 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.

Letter of 21 August 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.

Letter of 17 September 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.

Letter of 26 October 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.

a)

b)

c)

d)



REVISED UNSWORN STATEMENT O F

EDDIE LYNAM ff;vv&w »

I, Eddie Lynam, make this statement supplemental to my unsworn Statement of 23rd

March, 2000 .

I should mention that I was asked on 23rd March, 2000 by the Honourable Mr. Justice

Costello to ascertain whether I had any further documentation, including any trustdocumentation or letters of wishes.

When I m et with the Inspectors on 23rd March, 2000 I furnished to them all

documentation which was within my possession, power or procurement at that tim e.

Subsequent to my meeting with the Inspectors, I carried out a further search o f my

house (having previously carried out thorough searches at m y hom e) and I uncovered

further documentation that I had not bean aware of prior to the meeting.

I en close further copy bank statements from Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. A s you

previously indicated to me by letter dated 23rd December, 1999 that you have no

interest in financial details, I have accordingly been advised by my Solicitors that it is

appropriate for me to delete such details. I have also uncovered two letters of wishes,

one dated 3rd September, 1981, the other dated 5th March, 1987.

In February, 19 94 1 instructed Mr Des Traynor to transfer my account into the names

of my son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam, for convenience purposes

only. M y children were aware that the beneficial interest in the monies w ould remain

with me.

I also enclose herewith further correspondence received by me from Mr Padraig

Colleiy, Ms Joan Williams and Mr Des Traynor which I discovered as a result of my

recent search. It would also appear from the documentation enclosed herewith that on



certain occasions where Mr Des Traynor was unable to contact me (to receiveinstructions), the deposit was "rolled over", by Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, on his

instructions.

I can now also confirm that the joint-account w hich I held with m y brother was split

in approximately March, 1987. This is evidenced by a letter from Mr Des Traynor.

On 23rd M arch, 20001 w as under the mistaken belief that at no stage did I transferany funds to an account in the Isle of Man. It would appear from the documentation

enc losed herewith (that I have recently discovered) that monies w ere transferred to

Ulster Bank, Isle o f Man, by Mr Des Traynor, on my instructions. I apologise for any

confusion that might have been caused in this regard. Without the benefit of this

information I would not have been in a position to confirm that I gave these

instructions to Mr. De s Traynor. I still have no recollection of g iving these

instructions to Mr. Des Traynor.

As yo u are aware, I wrote to Mr Padraig Colleiy asking him to furnish to m e any

documentation that he might have had in relation to my account. I also wrote to

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited and Mr. Cathal Mac Carthy of Guinness Mahon

(Ireland) Limited. I have not received a reply from any of these parties.

(1477/001 EC/DOCS/STATE2.DOC)



j n

SOLICITORS

TlUPHONBi 933*1 «1 nut

Ms. Mary Cummins,Solicitor to the Inspectors,3rd Floor,Trident House,

our Rot 1477-001/LKS/EC/010611L2

Blackrock,

Co. Dublin YOU* Rift C/L06/MLCraf

22** June, 2001

Re: Our Client! Edward P. Lynam

Dear Ms. Cummins, a* < m m

We refer to your letter of 12 th inst

Our client instructs us to respond to your letter as follows:-

Regnrding paragraphs 1 and 2

As you are aware, our client instructed Mr Desmond Traynor to transfer his account held with Ansbacher(Cayman) Limited ("Ansbacher") to the names of his son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Maty Lynam.Our client gave this instruction to Mr Traynor for convenience purposes only (our client retaining thebeneficial interest in the monies), however, our client is not sure whether he communicated this specificfact to Mr Traynor. Our client instructs us that after receiving Mr Tiaynor's reply of March, 1994,our client received no further correspondence from Mr Traynor or Mr Collpry to the best of hisknowledge and that any other correspondence relating to this account was sent to Ms Mary Lynam.

Our client understands that Ms. Mary Lynam and Mr Bryan Lynam wrote to Mr Collery by letter dated2 2 n d February, 1995 on our client's instructions and instructed him to transfer the funds held wifeAnsbacher to an account in Ulster Bank (Isle of Man) Limited. This letter also sought confirmation thatthe account with Ansbacher had been closed

Regarding Paragraph 3

As previously advised, our client instructs us that to the best of his knowledge no lodgments were madeto the account held by htm wife Ansbacher after fee nitial lodgment. The correspondence referred to inyour letter under reply refers to the bank account being "rolled over" on a periodic basis.

We trust this tetter clarifies your queries.

Y0,,rc +V,!«+ifiiM>/

L K SHIELDS. SOLICITORS.



His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary,Ms. Noreen M ackey B.L.,

Mr Paul Row an F.C.A. & Mr M ichael Cush S.C.,

Inspectors,

Third Floor, Trident House,Blackrock, Co. Dublin

SOLICITORS3 9 / 4 0 U P P E R M O U N T S T R EE T

D U B L I N 2 , I R E L A N D .

T E L E P H O N E : 353+1 661 0866F A C S I M I L E : 353+1 661 0883

D.D.E. Box No: 123E - M A I L : emai l@lkshields. ie W E B S I T E : h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e

O U R RE F :

Y O U R R E F :

1477-001/EB/BMG/010820L2

C/L06/NSPM

21 s t August, 2001

re: Our Clients: Ms Mary Maher & Mr Bryan Lynam

Dear Sirs/Madam ,

We refer to your letters of 31 s t July, 2001 addressed to ou r clients.

Our clients wish to respond to the preliminary conclusion by you that our clients were "a client

of Ansbacher". Our clients note that you have not defined what is meant by "a client of

An sbache r" and we should be obliged if you might do so. Furthermore, you mig ht clarify

whether our clients are entitled to pursue option (d) as set out in Appendix C of your letter un der

reply, if they so wish.

Finally, we enclose herewith letters written on behalf of our clients seeking certain confirmations

from you.

Yours faithfully,

LTK SHIELDS, SOLICITORS

Ends .

L. > IK E. \CE K. SH IELD ? . U t t lL N D BLTU St "A RWOA MlOOVEKN, I R CH CAKVEY ; 0 SH I'H U GAVIN, r 'MMET SCT'.LY. GERARD HALPEXNY• E S T I \ > .k K L NN A . M I CH A EL K A Y ' , : . . X ' G E N ' E l ' A N M \ ' G . i M ' I D ' l i . A l l .LIAMS. FIONA rHOKNTOV MCOI.A PALMER,

^UI.EV.'.rE !'.'!!--'. I.-..S J!L CKLEV. . U,LA ,1'::; 'PP I'Y L. NM EN ./' HH Jj' DAL','. ",1 'Yi X MAHCO 'V MICKEY ; - i ( ' 'A\ 'OK ML' ' 1 >ME-

"V J H L U B ; V

Htl - :. 'ERVAI O HAL.^-K .;: '••>,>. i l- ' -R, : ' \E:Ll, CAHI ! IAN NI. ' .vLlAiN. . ' !)I<A .. 'KAMI': ' . \ s . , .„ • , . . . ,„ ,„„ ,„ , ntOM AS TM KS.">V.f m.


http://www.lkshields.ie/





SOLICITORS3 9 / 4 0 U P P E R M O U N T ST R E ET


T E L E P HO N E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 6 6

F A C SI M IL E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 8 3

D.D.E. Box No: 123

The Inspectors,

His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary,

Ms Noreen M ackey B.L., Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A.,

Mr Michael CushS.C.,

4th Floor,

Trident House,Blackrock,County Dublin.

E - M A I L : emai l@lkshields. ie W E B S I T E : h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e

O U R R E F :

1477-001/LKS/EC/010820L3

Y O U R R E F :

21 s t August, 2001

a m i oRe: Our Clients: Mr Bryan Lynam & Ms. Mary Maher

Dear Sirs/Madam,

We refer to your letters of 3 1 s t July, 2001 with enclosures to our clients and are instructed to

reply to same. W e note that you have formed the preliminary conclusion that our clients were " a

client of Ansbacher" and that you have afforded our clients the opportunity to provide you with a

written reply to this preliminary conclusion.

W hile it is acknow ledged that you have set out the procedures to be followed by the Inspectors atAppendix C to your letters of 31 s t July, 2001, prior to advising our clients to provide any written

response, or indeed any respon se, we request certain assurances from you.

We refer you to the Supreme Court Judgment In the Matter of National Irish Bank Limited,

(unreported, 21st January, 1999), in which Judgment M r. Justice Barrington stated, inter alia,:-

"In these circumstances I would uphold the decision of the learned High Court Judge bu t

would add the s tatement that a confession of a B an k Official obtained by the Inspectors as a

result of the exercise by them of their powers under Section 10 of the Companies Act, 1990

would not, in general, be admissible at a subsequent criminal trial of su ch Officials, unless, in

any particular case, the trial Judge was satisfied that the confession was voluntary."

In order to protect the interests of our clients and to guard against any perception that our clientswill voluntarily answer questions, provide information or provide books or docum ents orinformation to you as Inspectors (which they will not), we request that you confirm that you

accept that any information given, or questions answered, or books or records furnished, by ourclients would not be voluntarily given.

LAURENCE K. SHIELDS, ED MUN D BUTLER, PATRICIA McGO VERN, HU GH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY, GERARD HALPEN NY,JUSTIN McKENNA , MICHAEL KAVANACH, EUGENE FAN NING, DAVID J.H. WILUAMS, FIONA THORNTO N, NICOLA PALMER.

AOIFE BRADLEY, STEPHEN DREN NAN, SIOBH AN BUCKLEY, PAULA BURKE, EOIN CUN NEEN , PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, JANE MEEH AN, CONO R MULLANY, JAMES M cGIL UO N,NIAMH McKEON, OliLAIGH O'DWYER. DERVAL O' HALLORAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NUALLA IN, CORA CRAMPTON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant).







We look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

SHIELDS, SOLICITORS



SOLICITORS3 9 / 4 0 U P P E R M O U N T ST R E E T

D U B L I N 2, I R E L A N D .

T E L E PH O N E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 6 6

F A C SI M IL E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 8 3

D . D . E . B o x N o : 1 2 3

The Joint-Inspectors,

3rd Floor,

Trident House,

E - M A I L : emai l@lkshields. ie W E B S I T E :

h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e O U R R E F :

1477-001/LKS/EC/010913 L4Blackrock,

Co. Dublin.Y O U R R E F :

C/L13 / C/M47/M LC/mf

By Hand

17th September, 20 01

re: Our Client: Bryan Lynam

Dear Sirs/Madam,

We refer to previous correspondence in relation to our client Bryan Lynam and to yourpreliminary conclusions communicated in your letter of the 31 st July 2001. Let us firstly put onrecord our instructions that our client was not at any stage a "client" of Ansbacher and did not atany stage have any beneficial interest in any funds in an Ansbacher account.

With reference to the Inspectors preliminary conclusions in relation to Mr. Edw ard Lyn am, w e

note your comment that:-

"Although Mr. Lynam claims to have retained the beneficial interest in the deposit

account, the documents do not support this assertion. "

This, com bined w ith the reference to the change of a name, is an implied finding that our clientheld a beneficial interest in that account after February 1994. That finding would be imm enselydamag ing to our client's good nam e and would reflect a position which is untrue in fact. W ebelieve this to be an unjustified attack on our clie nt's good name in circumstances w here the

unchallenged evidence, of Edward Lynam is that he himself wa s at all times the beneficial owner.Indeed, there is no other evidence as to beneficial ownership of the funds in that account. There

is of course evidence as to a change of name of the account but that does not add ress the issue ofbeneficial ownership. It is quite wrong to refer to the change of name independently of the true

position on beneficial ownership and in a way wh ich creates the misleading impression that ourclient was a client of A nsbacher.

In the light of your invitation to our client to submit a written statement we now enclose anaffidavit sworn by our client setting out the true position on oath. Please note that our clientsubmits this affidavit and this letter under com pulsion of the process in which the Inspectors areengaged and in that sense, it is not a volun tary statement. How ever, if you have any doubt as to

LAURENCE K. SHIELDS, EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McGOVERN, HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY, GERARD HALPENNY,JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANIAC.H, EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILLIAMS, FIONA THORNTON, NICOLA PALMER,

AOII'E BRADLEY, STEPHEN BRKNNAN. SIOBHAN BUCKLEY PAULA BURKE, FOIN CUNNEEN, PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, JANE MEEHAN, CONOR MULLANY, JAMES McGILLlON,NIAMH McKEON, ORLAIGH O'DWYER, DEKVAL O' IIALLORAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NU ALLAIN, CORA CRAM ITON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant).







the veracity of what our client says on oath, we invite you to exercise your powers to require himto attend for cross-examination and confirm that if so required, he will attend.

In the circumstances, we request you to alter your conclusions and not include any finding to the

effect that Bryan Lynam enjoyed the use of the funds on d eposit and not to include a co nclusionthat Bryan Lynam was a "client" of Ansbacher since both of those conclusions would be untrue,unsupported by the evidence and in all the circumstances, an unjustified attack on our c lient'sgood name.

Yours faithfiillv

L.K. SHIELDS, SOLICITORS



SOLICITORS3 9 / 4 0 U P P E R M O U N T S T R EE T


T E L E PH O N E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 6 6

F A C SI M IL E : 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 8 3

D.D.E. Box No: 123

His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary,Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.,

Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A. & Mr Michael Cush S.C.,

E - M A I L : emai l@lkshields. ie W E B S I T E : h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e

O U R R E F :

1477-001/EC/BMG/011023L2

Joint- Inspectors, Third Floor,Trident House, Blackrock, Co. Dublin

Y O U R R E F : C/L06/NSPM

26th October, 2001

R e : O u r C li e n t : M r B r y a n L y n a m

Dear Sirs/Madam,

We refer to your letter of 11"' October, 2001, the contents of which w e have noted.

We assume that your preliminary conclusion that our client was a "client of Ansbacher" (whichyou have not defined, despite our requests) was determined on the basis of the existence of ourclien t's nam e as a signatory on the account and letters signed by her and not on any considerationof the beneficial ownership of the account. If so, it seems to us that you have attached a m eaning

to the concept of "clien t" which is strained and quite simply w rong and results in a seriousinjustice to our client. We do not accept that your terms of reference entitle you to resolvedisputed issues as to the meaning of this term. Your function is, inter alia, to identify personsfalling into a certain category and not to reach co nclusions of law as to the mean ing of that

category. If there is doubt, it should be resolved by the court before our client's go od nam e isimpugned.

In the event that you are of the view that our assumption is incorrect and you consider the issueof beneficial ownership to be relevant to forming your preliminary conclusions then w e invite

you to call our client to an interview with you on the usual involuntary basis.

Finally, we note that your letter under reply was not signed by Mr M ichael Cush, S.C.

Yours faithfully.

LAURENCE K. SHIELDS. EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McCOVFRN. HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY. GERARD HALPENNY,JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANACH. EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILLIAMS, FIONA THORN TON, NICOLA PALMER,

AOIFE BRADLEY, STEPHEN BRENNAN, SIOBHAN BUCKLEY, PAULA BURKE, EOIN CL'NNEEN, PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, CONOR MULLANY, JAMES McGILLION,N1AMH MckEON , ORLAIGH O'DVVYER, DEKVAl. O' HA LLOliAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NUAI.LAIN, CORACRAMPTON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant)-







Appendix XV (69) Mr Edward Lynam

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrEdward Lynam.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 March 2000.

b) Unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 March 2000.

c) Letter of 3 December 1979 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.

d) Letter of 2 January 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.

e) Letter of 3 March 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.

f) Letter of 2 April 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.

g) Letter of 11 September 1981 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam .

h) Letter of 1 March 1982 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.

i) Letter of 4 November 1986 - JD Traynor to Mr Edward Lynam.

j) Letter of 5 March 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

k) Letter of 5 June 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

1) Letter of 5 September 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

m) Revised unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 June 2000.

n) Letter of 22 June 2001 - LK Shields to Solicitor to Inspectors.



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. EDWARD LYNAM

UNDER OATH

ON THURSDAY, 23RD MARCH 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT


MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL


Interviewee: MR. EDWARD LYNAM

Represented by: MR. LAURENCE SHIELDS

LK SHIELDS SOLICITORS

42 UPPER MOUNT STREET

DUBLIN 2



I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION

MR. E. LYNAM MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY



1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY

2 23RD MARCH 2000

3

4

5 MR. SHIELDS: Sorry for holding you

6 up. Mr. Lynam's taxi took

7 a lot longer to get into our office and then I took

8 a lot longer ferreting around looking for a car

9 parking space.

10 MR. JUSTICE SMYTH: Mr. Lynam, we will start

11 our interview then.

12 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello

14 and on my right is

15 Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. We are the

16 Inspectors as you know.

17 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Who have been appointed by

19 the Court to undertake

20 this investigation.

21 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you

23 that this is not a Court

24 and it is not a Tribunal. It is an investigation.

25 If in the course of the questions that we ask you,

26 you wish to obtain the advice of your solicitor.

2 7 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Please tell me so and we

29 will stop and you can ask

4



1 the solicitor.

2 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Similarly, if in the

4 course of the questions

5 your solicitor would wish to ask permission to

6 advise you, then we will stop and you can take

7 advice. You understand that you are free then to

8 take legal advice at any time during the course of

9 this interview.

10 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This interview is held

12 under oath and I will ask

13 our solicitor now to administer the oath to you

14 Mr. Lynam.

15 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

5



1 MR. EDWARD LYNAM, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED,

2 AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

3

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lynam, you received a

5 long letter from us, is

6 that not so?

7 A. Yes.

8 2 Q. If you would just look at me, Mr. Lynam?

9 A. Yes.

10 3 Q. You will recall that in that letter we asked for a

11 full and detailed statement?

12 A. Yes.

13 4 Q. I want to know why you did not comply with that

14 request.

15 MR. SHIELDS: Well...(INTERJECTION)

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields, I must

17 ask the witness the

18 question.

19 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.

20 A. I think it came -- was that the one from you? I got

21 it from you?

22 5 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?

23 A. Well, that would be Christmas Eve.

24 6 Q. Yes?

25 A. Well, I didn't — I think I sought advice

26 afterwards.

27 7 Q. Yes?

28 A. And then the next thing I got another letter from

29 you I think.

6



1 8 Q. Yes?

2 A. And that is the reason I didn't bother up to that.

3 9 Q. You did not bother today?

4 A. Because I was always --• it was iminent, you know.

5 10 Q. Yes . Because it was iminent you did not -- have you

6 got a statement?

7 MR. SHIELDS: We have an unsworn

8 statement.

9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I see.

10 MR. SHIELDS: Which we want to hand

11 over.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .

13 MR. SHIELDS: And that is the point I

14 was trying to make.

15 11 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. However, the witness

16 then is going to hand in

17 an unsworn statement?

18 A. Yes .

19 MR. SHIELDS: Correct.

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. SHIELDS: There are three copies

23 of it there. That is the

24 signed one (Exhibit 1) (Same Handed).

25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .

26 MR. SHIELDS: So that there are

27 additional copies.

28 12 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You will appreciate

29 Mr. Lynam that it will be



1 impossible for us to read the statement.

2 MR. SHIELDS: It is a very short

3 statement.

4 13 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That has now being given

5 Mr. Lynam?

6 A. Yes.

7 14 Q. It will be impossible for us to deal with it. It

8 may be necessary for us to recall you?

9 A. Yes.

10 15 Q. At a later date?

11 A. Yes.

12 16 Q. Do you understand that, Mr. Lynam?

13 A. I understand that, yes. It is a very short

14 statement.

15 17 Q. Mr. Lynam, this indicates that Mr. Traynor wrote to

16 you in 1986 and he says that he attaches the

17 original letter of wishes from you both?

18 A. Yes.

19 18 Q. It says:

20 "When you have had the opportunity toconsider please ring to advise me of21 the position"?

22

23 A. Yes, I can't recall what happened then.

24 19 Q. However, I wonder where the letter of wishes is?

25 A. I don't know at the moment. I honestly don't know.

26 20 Q. Have you looked for it Mr. Lynam?

27 A. Since, yes, I have.

28 21 Q. Do you know where it is? Where you would put it?

29 A. It would be -- it must be with Traynor's office.

8



1 22 Q. In Traynor's office?

2 A. It must be. That is the only place. I don't think

3 I have it. I haven't got it.

4 23 Q. Did you look in your own records?

5 A. Well, I haven't much records at all.

6 24 Q. No. However, you will see that this is a letter

7 written to you. Is this your home address?

8 A. Yes.

9 25 Q. 313 Navan Road?

10 A. Yes.

11 26 Q. Yes?

12 A. Yes, well, there was -- my brother was handling the

13 correspondence in relation to those things, you

14 know, and I have no correspondence at all really.

15 27 Q. Are you E.P. Lynam?

16 A. I am Edward P. Lynam, yes.

17 28 Q. This letter was written to you?

18 A. It was written to me.

19 29 Q. Have you looked for the letter of wishes?

20 A. Yes, and I can't find it.

21 30 Q. You cannot find it?

22 A. No.

23 31 Q. Where did you look?

24 A. In the house, in my own house, in some of the

25 drawers and that is all. That is the only way I

26 could find it.

27 32 Q. Did you have a solicitor at the time?

28 A. What year was that? I had solicitors all the time.

29 33 Q. Who was your solicitor at the time?

9



1 A. I don't know. It might have been O'Connor &

2 Company.

3 MR. SHIELDS: This is 1986.

4 A. 1986, it might have been John. It was either

5 Michael Staines or John S. O'Connor, one of the two.

6 1986 would be Michael Staines I think.

7 34 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Michael Staines, you

8 think?

9 A. I think it would have been, yes.

10 35 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?

11 A. I didn't ask him come to think of it.

12 36 Q. You did not ask him?

13 A. No.

14 37 Q. Where did you find this letter?

15 A. That letter would have been given to me

16 by...(INTERJECTION).

17 38 Q. Sorry Mr. Lynam?

18 A. It would have been given to me...(INTERJECTION).

19 39 Q. If I could just interrupt you?

20 A. Yes.

21 40 Q. For a moment?

22 A. Yes.

23 41 Q. Mr. Lynam, I appreciate that this happened a long

24 time ago?

25 A. Yes.

2 6 42 Q. And that your memory may be infirm and I would

27 prefer if you would just tell me if you cannot

2 8 remember?

2 9 A. I can't remember.

10



1 43 Q. Just tell me if you cannot remember?

2 A. I can't.

3 44 Q. And if you cannot remember we can go into it perhaps

4 further. However, at the moment I would prefer if

5 you would indicate to me if you cannot remember?

6 A. I can't remember where it is.

7 45 Q. Okay?

8 A. Right.

9 MR. SHIELDS: I think -- sorry, just if

10 I may say that we have

11 tried to have a number of interviews. We have only

12 been instructed by Mr. Lynam since his letter

13 arrived from the Inspectors.


15 MR. SHIELDS: We have tried to get the

16 picture, which is set out

17 in the unsworn statement, and I would have to say

18 that Mr. Lynam's recollection is far from clear on a

19 lot of occasions.

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Shields,

21 if...(INTERJECTION).

22 MR. SHIELDS: That is why we have tried


24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If I

25 could...(INTERJECTION).

26 MR. SHIELDS: Put it together in that.

27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Shields?


29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If I could stop you?

11



1 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This is not a Court of

3 law.

4 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.

5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we are

6 investigating the

7 position.

8 MR. SHIELDS: I accept that. I accept

9 that.

10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And we have to make our

11 judgment ourselves.


13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Not on what he may have

14 told you or may not have

15 told to you.

16 MR. SHIELDS: I accept that fully.

17 A. Yes.

18 46 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I must press you a little

19 bit on this, Mr. Lynam?

20 A. Yes.

21 47 Q. You have produced for us a letter of the

22 4th November 1986 in your statement(Exhibit 1)?

23 A. Yes.

24 48 Q. Where did you get this letter?

25 A. I got it from one of my nieces.

26 49 Q. Your niece?

27 A. Yes.

28 50 Q. What is her name?

29 A. Eileen.

12



1 51 Q. MR. SHIELDS: Are you sure now?

2 A. No, hold on.

3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields.

4 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry.

5 A. No.

6 52 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am sorry. I

7 must...(INTERJECTION).

8 A. No, hold on a minute, sorry

9 53 Q. I must ask you not to comment?

10 MR. SHIELDS: But I think his

11 recollection

12 is...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. No, I know. I got the letter that you have, this

14 one here, at the time of the split.

15 MR. SHIELDS: You gave us that letter.

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. SHIELDS: The question being asked

18 of you is "where did you

19 get it"?

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields.


22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I really

23 must...(INTERJECTION).


25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I really must insist that

26 we carry out these

27 procedures in a proper way.

28 A. Yes. You want to know where I got this letter?

29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am examining the

13



1 witness.

2 MR. SHIELDS: Yes, sorry.

3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you want to stop any

4 question to give him legal

5 advice do so.

6 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.

7 54 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?

8 A. Is this the letter you are referring to?

9 November the 4th is that the letter you have?

10 55 Q. Yes. I am referring to one on the

11 4th November 1986?

12 A. Yes, I would have got that from Trinity Street,

13 Des Traynor.

14 56 Q. Who did you get it from?

15 A. Des Traynor.

16 57 Q. Yes?

17 A. That is the name that is on it any way.

18 58 Q. No. However, you have handed this letter to me now.

19 Do you know where you got it: Who you got it from?

20 A. I found that. That is one of the few things that I

21 found.

22 59 Q. Where did you find it?

23 A. In my own house.

24 60 Q. In your own house?

25 A. Yes.

26 61 Q. Had you an accountant, Mr. Lynam?

27 A. Yes. When...(INTERJECTION)?

28 62 Q. Who...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. In this period?

14



1 63 Q. Yes?

2 A. It was Haughey Boland.

3 64 Q. Haughey Boland?

4 A. Yes.

5 65 Q. At the present time have you an accountant?

6 A. Yes.

7 66 Q. Who is that?

8 A. Deloitte & Touche.

9 67 Q. They are the successors?

10 A. Yes.

11 68 Q. To Haughey Boland?

12 A. Yes.

13 69 Q. Did you make enquiries from them about any of the

14 documents?

15 A. No, they wouldn't have them.

16 70 Q. You did not make enquiries?

17 A. I didn't make enquiries because I know they wouldn't

18 have them. Traynor wouldn't deal with any of them.

19 71 Q. He dealt directly with you?

20 A. Yes, anything I would get I got from him.

21 72 Q. Yes?

22 A. Or my brother would get it.

23 73 Q. Yes. In relation to this, this refers to a letter

24 of wishes?

25 A. Yes.

26 74 Q. It would appear to indicate that a trust had been

27 established?

28 A. Yes. I can't recall that to be quite honest, the

29 details of that now. I mean if it has been -- if

15



1 there was a trust done it must be there so.

2 75 Q. Where do you think it is?

3 A. It must be in -- it is in being but I don't know

4 about it.

5 76 Q. Yes. Would you be prepared to write to "Ansbacher"

6 in Cayman?

7 A. Yes, any of them...(INTERJECTION).

8 77 Q. For a copy of it?

9 A. I will write to anybody that you want me to. I will

10 do it and I will get it.

11 78 Q. Yes. Have you done so up to now?

12 A. No.

13 79 Q. Will you?

14 A. I will, yes. I certainly will, yes.

15 80 Q. If I may just return Mr. Lynam to your -- just if

16 you could briefly indicate your history? You are a

17 builder?

18 A. Yes.

19 81 Q. You have been a builder?

20 A. Yes. I was a builder, a house builder, for the

21 last 54 years.

22 82 Q. Yes?

23 A. And I was in partnership with my brother.

24 83 Q. Yes?

25 A. Early on.

26 84 Q. Yes?

27 A. Most of the time.

28 85 Q. Yes?

29 A. And we built houses everywhere and we were with

16



1 Haughey Boland. Haughey Boland were our

2 accountants.

3 86 Q. Yes?

4 A. And the rest you have it there. Well -- I got a

5 call from Des Traynor when he left, after he left,

6 Haughey Boland.

7 87 Q. Yes?

8 A. And he would have known our firm because they did

9 accounts you see for it.

10 88 Q. Yes?

11 A. He did.

12 89 Q. Yes?

13 A. He was involved in the accounts for one year and he

14 knew there was no overdrafts and that we would be --

15 any money we didn't use we would always put it on

16 deposit and that.

17 90 Q. Yes. With him?

18 A. No, we used it in building sites around here. The

19 usual thing around here.

20 91 Q. Yes?

21 A. But he then -- he came up with -- well, he rang me,

22 as I told you. He rang me to see did I -- had I any

23 money I wanted to put on deposit.

24 92 Q. Yes?

25 A. It is exactly as it is there.

26 93 Q. As you said in your statement?

27 A. That is it.

28 94 Q. Yes?

29 A. And being exactly as it says there.

17



1 95 Q. In the statement. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

2 A. Yes. So, I saw him very little. I haven't -- I

3 didn't see him for about the last five or six years.

4 96 Q. Yes?

5 A. Or ten years.

6 97 Q. Yes. Perhaps, we will go through your statement.

7 Mr. Shields has he got a copy of the statement?

8 MR. SHIELDS: He has, yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 98 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Perhaps, we will go

11 through the statement with

12 you (Exhibit 1)?

13 A. Yes.

14 99 Q. In 1979 you received a call from Mr. Traynor. Was

15 he looking after your accounts at that time?

16 A. No.

17 100 Q. However, his firm...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. He had left Haughey Boland.

19 101 Q. He left Haughey Boland?

20 A. Yes.

21 102 Q. You consulted with your brother and you got in touch

22 with him then?

23 A. And we met Traynor.

24 103 Q. You met Mr. Traynor?

25 A. Yes, we met Traynor. My brother and I met Traynor.

26 104 Q. Yes. Had he looked after your accounts in Haughey

27 Boland. Did you know Mr. Traynor?

28 A. I did know him.

29 105 Q. You did know him?

18



1 A. I knew him well but he only looked after the

2 accounts about -- I think he only did one year.

3 That is about all.

4 106 Q. Yes. He told you then that there would be deposits

5 in a bank in the Caymans of which he was a Director?

6 A. Yes.

7 107 Q. Did you know that bank? Did you know the name of

8 the bank?

9 A. No, at that time I didn't know.

10 108 Q. However, later on you learnt it?

11 A. I did, yes, "Ansbacher".

12 109 Q. Yes. The Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, I think it

13 was known as then?

14 A. No, I didn't, I never heard that word before.

15 110 Q. What one did you hear?

16 A. I only heard that in the papers lately.

17 111 Q. What bank did you hear?

18 A. At first I didn't. I might have been told

19 "Ansbacher" but I didn't -- "Ansbacher Cayman"

20 became noticeable once or twice afterwards.

21 112 Q. Afterwards?

22 A. Yes.

23 113 Q. Later on?

24 A. Yes, but not during this, what is going on now.

25 114 Q. Yes?

26 A. But afterwards I knew there was "Ansbacher" and I

27 think it was based in London. There was something

28 to do with London. At that time I used to get an

29 odd confirmation of the amounts.

19



1 115 Q. Of the amounts?

2 A. Yes.

3 116 Q. Who gave you those, Mr. Lynam?

4 A. I got them from Ms. Williams in Traynor's office.

5 117 Q. In Traynor's office?

6 A. Yes.

7 118 Q. Yes?

8 A. She would give it to me over the phone. She would

9 ring me, "Mr. Lynam," telling me the interest it

10 made this month.

11 119 Q. Yes?

12 A. And she might confirm it. Sometimes she would but

13 not always.

14 120 Q. The interest was changing?

15 A. Yes.

16 121 Q. She would tell you what interest was earned?

17 A. She would tell you that your interest was changing.

18 122 Q. Yes?

19 A. And she would give me the balance every now and

20 again.

21 123 Q. Yes?

22 A. Over the phone so...(INTERJECTION).

23 124 Q. Did you ever go into the office and get any sort of

24 statement from her?

25 A. I did. Well, no. She sent me a few statements.

26 125 Q. Did she?

27 A. I have to say that, yes.

28 126 Q. Yes?

29 A. And I think -- no, she sent me them all right.

20



1 127 Q. She sent them to you?

2 A. She sent them to me alright. Yes, she did send them

3 all right.

4 128 Q. Can you remember was there any name on the top of

5 the statement?

6 A. "Ansbacher".

7 129 Q. Or was it cut off?

8 A. "Ansbacher".

9 130 Q. "Ansbacher"?

10 A. "Ansbacher".

11 131 Q. Yes. Did you ever visit Mr. Traynor in his office?

12 A. I visited him in -- no, the only time I visited

13 Traynor since he left Haughey Boland was the once

14 when I went to see him with my brother to open the

15 account.

16 132 Q. Yes?

17 A. And once on another occasion, I can't remember what

18 it was about and then there was another time. About

19 three or four times I went to see him.

20 133 Q. Yes?

21 A. Twice was in Trinity Street I think.

22 134 Q. Yes?

23 A. And once was in Fitzwilliam.

24 135 Q. Was it the Cement Roadstone Office?

25 A. Fitzwilliam.

26 136 Q. The Cement Roadstone offices?

27 A. Cement Roadstone's offices.

28 137 Q. Yes?

29 A. But that was for another matter.

21



1 138 Q. Yes?

2 A. It was nothing to do with this matter.

3 139 Q. I see. Perhaps, we will go on. Just pick up the

4 statement there and we will go through it?

5 A. Yes.

6 140 Q. He told you it would be deposited in a bank in the

7 Cayman Islands?

8 A. Yes.

9 141 Q. It reads:

10 "A joint deposit account was opened formy brother and I in August 1979"?

11

12 A. Yes.

13 142 Q. You were told then the rate would be approximately

14 16.75%?

15 A. Yes.

16 143 Q. That is a very accurate figure in your statement. I

17 was wondering really how you remember that?

18 A. I am sorry?

19 144 Q. Or had you any record?

20 A. No, it is a copy. I have no records at all and I

21 got a copy from my niece.

22 145 Q. From your niece?

23 A. Yes.

24 146 Q. What is her name?

25 A. Eileen Lynam.

26 147 Q. Eileen?

2 7 A. Lynam.

2 8 14 8 Q. Lynam?

29 A. Is that her single name, yes.

22



1 149 Q. How would she have a copy of it?

2 A. Her father. Well, her father. My brother was

3 involved.

4 150 Q. Your brother?

5 A. Yes.

6 151 Q. Your brother's daughter would have been looking

7 after it?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. SHIELDS: His brother.

10 A. My brother.

11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.


13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what I thought.

14 That is ... (INTERJECTION) .

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. SHIELDS: His brother's daughter.


18 MR. SHIELDS: His brother's daughter.

19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what I thought,

20 yes.

21 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry, yes.

22 152 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. James Lynam?

2 3 A. James Lynam.

24 153 Q. Is that right?


26 154 Q. Yes?

27 A. That is it.

28 155 Q. James was a...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. He was a partner with me.

23



1 156 Q. A partner with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 157 Q. He was in the joint account with you?

4 A. Yes.

5 158 Q. His daughter was looking after them then, was she?

6 A. Well, I have only got these lately.

7 159 Q. Only lately?

8 A. I only got these lately.

9 160 Q. Anyway we can make further enquiries about that?

10 A. Yes.

11 161 Q. If we just move on then. The money remained in that

12 account without any further lodgements or

13 withdrawals until 1987?

14 A. Yes.

15 162 Q. It would appear that the joint account was split?

16 A. Yes.

17 163 Q. Again, did you get that from your niece, that

18 information?

19 A. No, I got that from the letter. I remember seeing a

20 letter from Traynor about that.

21 164 Q. Yes?

22 A. In this.

23 165 Q. I think it is one of the ones that you gave us where

24 it says ... (INTERJECTION)?

25 A. Yes, then it is there, yes.

26 166 Q. The split was effective. They just announced the

27 split of the account, is that right?

28 A. Yes.

29 167 Q. Between your brother and yourself?

24



1 A. Yes.

2 168 Q. Then you say that you had made no further lodgements

3 to your account following the division of the joint

4 deposit?

5 A. Yes, I didn't.

6 169 Q. Did you know that you could draw monies on this

7 account?

8 A. Well, I knew I could draw money any time I wanted.

9 170 Q. And you did, did you not?

10 A. No.

11 171 Q. I will come to that in a moment but I think your

12 recollection is not correct there. Did you not

13 transfer money to the Isle of Man?

14 A. Not at that -- what time are you talking about?

15 172 Q. I will come to that in a moment if you do not

16 recollect it?

17 A. Yes.

18 173 Q. I will show you the documents. You go on to say,

19 "I should mention that occasionally Ireceived telephone calls from

20 Mr. Des Traynor..."?

21

22 A. Yes.

23 174 Q.

"...and Ms. Joan Williams who informed

24 me of the balance..."

25

26 You have told me that?

27 A. Yes.

28 175 Q. In March 1995 you instructed Mr. Padraig Collery to

29 close your account?

25



1 A. Yes.

2 176 Q. Just in relation to the use you made of the account,

3 I have to ask you to look at certain letters, which

4 were internal letters from IIB, internal letters in

5 IIB. It is page 24. Have you got that?

6 MS. CUMMINS: Page 24, Judge, is it.

7 177 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Page 25. Do you see in

8 this letter (Exhibit 2)?

9 A. Yes.

10 178 Q. This is a letter from Mr. Traynor to

11 The Irish Intercontinental Bank and it is:

12 "Could you please arrange the transferof Stg£15,000.00 to Ulster Bank Isle

13 of Man Limited for credit to theAccount of Edward P. Lynam,14 Account No. 601195. The cost should

be debited to our Call Account..."

15

16 And it gives the "Ansbacher" call account. That was

17 a transfer of money that you asked for to

18 the Isle of Man?

19 A. Where did I ask for it? I never asked for it. I

20 don't know anything about The Intercontinental Bank.

21 179 Q. Sorry?

22 A. I don't know anything about The Intercontinental

23 Bank. I never heard of it. Well, I heard of it

24 somewhere but...(INTERJECTION).

25 180 Q. Did you not ask Mr. Traynor to transfer?

26 A. No.

27 181 Q. Stg£15,000?

28 A. No.

29 182 Q. Had you an account in The Ulster Bank?

26



1 A. In 0'Connell Street.

2 183 Q. Had you got an account in the Isle of Man?

3 A. I beg your pardon?

4 184 Q. In the Isle of Man?

5 A. No. Could I talk to my solicitor?

6 185 Q. Yes, yes. (Short Discussion) Perhaps, I will put

7

8

it another way to you, Mr. Lynam. This letter,

obviously you never saw this letter before. It is

9 letter that is written by Mr. Traynor to The

10 Irish Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 2)?

11 A. Yes .

12 186 Q. You might not have known that the "Ansbacher"

13 account was in The Irish Intercontinental Bank, is

14 that correct? You did not know where the

15 "Ansbacher" account was?

16 A. No, I knew -- I never -- I didn't know anything

17 about The Intercontinental Bank.

18 187 Q. However, what I am suggesting to you is that from

19 time to time you drew money. You went to

20 Mr. Traynor and asked him for money?

21 A. No, never did, never ever.

22 188 Q. Did you leave the money in Cayman from 197 9 and

23 never touched it?

24 A. Yes .

25 189 Q. You never touched it?

26 A. That is right. It is exactly as it says in the

27 letter.

28 190 Q. Pardon?

29 A. It is exactly as in my statement.

27



1 191 Q. I just want to see if your recollection

2 is...(INTERJECTION)?

3 MR. SHIELDS: Can we keep copies of

4 these?

5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Of course, of course.

6 MR. SHIELDS: You will give us a copy?

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, of course.

8 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.

9 192 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would just look

10 there is another letter?

11 A. Yes.

12 193 Q. On the 5th June 1991 (Exhibit 3) (Same Handed)?

13 A. Yes.

14 194 Q. This is a transfer of another sum to the Isle of

15 Man?

16 A. That is nothing to do with me.

17 195 Q. I wonder... (INTERJECTION)?

18 A. It is not. It is definitely not me.

19 196 Q. You had an account in The Ulster Bank?

20 A. Yes.

21 197 Q. In Dublin, was it?

22 A. Yes, O'Connell Street.

23 198 Q. Do you see this gives the account of Edward P. Lynam

24 and account number 601195. Again, it actually gives

25 the account number?

26 A. I know but I never got those. I never got -- whose

27 is that to? I have never got money from "Ansbacher"

28 account. I don't know. It is foreign. It is

29 completely foreign.

28



1 199 Q. You see there was another withdrawal in

2 September 1991. It is a letter from Joan Williams

3 to IIB relating to a transfer (Exhibit 4)?

4 A. Not me, no. Definitely not me. Definitely not me.

5 200 Q. These are -- this is the account of Edward P. Lynam.

6 Are you Edward P. Lynam?

7 A. That is right.

8 201 Q. Yes?

9 A. I wonder is that me? I don't know what my

10 Ulster Bank number is here. I have no cheque book

11 with me but it gives a number and all. No, it is

12 definitely -- I never got money -- "to the

13 account"...(INTERJECTION).

14 202 Q. I think the explanation may be Mr. Lynam, if you see

15 on the letter of the 5th March 1991 (Exhibit 3)?

16 A. Yes.

17 203 Q. It says,

18 "to..."

19

20 And then,

21 "...West London..."

22

2 3 MS. MACKEY: Nat West.

24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry,

25 "...Nat West..."

26

27 And then,

28 "...A/C Ulster Bank Belfast..."

29

29



1 And then,

2 "...A/C Ulster Bank Isle of Man"?

3

4 A. Sure I know nothing about that, nothing at all.

5 Sure the information...(INTERJECTION).

6 204 Q. Perhaps, you could make enquiries in The Ulster

7 Bank, could you?

8 A. Yes.

9 205 Q. Could you make enquires in The Ulster Bank?

10 A. Yes, yes, certainly.

11 206 Q. You could make enquiries in the Ulster Bank, Isle of

12 Man Limited, about this account number too, could

13 you?

14 A. Which one is that?

15 MR. SHIELDS: That is the one the Judge,

16 the Inspector, is asking

17 you about. This account (INDICATING).

18 A. I don't -- am I getting this right? They are asking

19 -- what are they asking?

20 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry Judge I think,

21 just to clarify the

22 position, I know you are asking the witness.


24 MR. SHIELDS: However, I think just to

25 clarify the position,

26 while it is not entirely within the ambit of the

27 Inspectors other than that the money goes, he did

28 have an account, as I understand it. Now, what date

29 it was opened on I don't know, in the Isle of Man.

30



1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, sorry,

2 Mr. Shields, you cannot

3 give the evidence.

4 MR. SHIELDS: Yes. No, I can't. No, I

5 am just clarifying it and

6 then maybe you can ask Mr. Lynam again because his

7 recollection is not perhaps clear.

8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Now it

9 appears...(INTERJECTION).

10 MR. SHIELDS: He had an account at one

11 stage in the Isle of Man,

12 okay.

13 207 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It appears that you must

14 have instructed your

15 solicitors that you had an account in the

16 Isle of Man and that you are mistaken, your memory

17 is mistaken?

18 A. No.

19 208 Q. Did you not make enquires about it?

20 A. No, I didn't instruct anybody.

21 MR. SHIELDS: However, he did not give

22 any instructions. I mean

23 this is ... (INTERJECTION) .

24 A. No, this is foreign to me. I know nothing about

25 that at all.

26 209 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. I take it then

27 that you

28 will...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. It could be a mistake.

31



1 210 Q. Discuss these questions with your solicitor at the

2 end of this and if it is necessary you will clarify

3 the matter?

4 A. Yes.

5 211 Q. In the light of what your solicitor said?

6 A. Yes, I certainly will.

7 212 Q. I want to refer you to another letter of the

8 27th February 1995 (Exhibit 5)(Same Handed)?

9 A. Yes.

10 213 Q. This is from Mr. Collery and it is to The

11 Intercontinental Bank:

12 "I should be grateful if you wouldplease transfer the sum of £581,000.00

13 to the Ulster Bank (Isle of Man)Limited for the account of..."14

15 And it is the same numbered account.

16 "This transfer should be debited..."

17

18 And then to the account number?

19 A. Could I ... (INTERJECTION) .

20 214 Q. No, sorry. I just want you to try to recollect.

21 Can you recollect? You told us in your statement

22 that you closed the account?

23 A. Yes.

24 215 Q. This seems to be the closing of the account?

25 A. Yes.

26 216 Q. £581,000.00?

27 A. Yes.

28 217 Q. Does it not look like Mr. Collery transferred that

29 to your account in the Isle of Man?

32



1 A. Yes, yes.

2 218 Q. It does?

3 A. But the other is foreign to me completely...

4 219 Q. Then this is not foreign to you?

5 A. No, no, that one is not.

6 220 Q. You had an account in the Isle of Man in 1995?

7 A. Yes.

8 221 Q. Yes?

9 A. But it was only opened somewhere around that -- no,

10 just before that.

11 222 Q. You can check this out but I think your recollection

12 is faulty, Mr. Lynam. It looks as if you had,

13 because it is the same numbered account in this

14 letter as in the earlier letters in 1991?

15 A. Well, the first I have heard of it is all here now.

16 I know about the £581,000.

17 223 Q. Yes?

18 A. But I don't remember the other one.

19 224 Q. Yes?

20 A. I know nothing about the other one.

21 225 Q. Mr. Lynam, you were told from time to time that this

22 money was earning interest and you were told the

23 interest it was earning?

24 A. Which money?

25 226 Q. The money that you were giving to Mr. Traynor?

26 A. Yes.

27 227 Q. Did you in your statements to the Revenue and your

28 tax liabilities did you include these interests?

29 A. No.

33




2 A. No.

3 229 Q. That is all I want to ask you, Mr. Lynam?

4 A. Yes.

5 230 Q. Mr. Lynam, we could stop now for a cup of coffee if

6 that would be suitable for you?

7 A. Yes.

8 231 Q. We will resume then in about ten minute's time?

9 A. Yes, no problem.

10 232 Q. And we will not hold you very long?

11 A. Yes.

12


14

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lynam, we will

16 resume. I have no further

17 questions.

18

19 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. LYNAM BY MR. JUSTICE

20 COSTELLO

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

34



1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, Ms. Mackey

2 would like you to ask you

3 some questions.

4 A. Yes.

5

6 MR. LYNAM WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY

7

8 233 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just a few very brief

9 questions, Mr. Lynam?

10 A. Yes.

11 234 Q. First of all you mentioned to us earlier that you

12 received statements from time to time from

13 Ms. Joan Williams?

14 A. Yes.

15 235 Q. In her office, in Mr. Traynor's office?

16 A. I did.

17 236 Q. Which of the offices was that?

18 A. It was in Trinity Street, on the side

19 of...(INTERJECTION).

20 237 Q. You went into Joan Williams in Trinity Street?

21 A. No, you see, no. Joan Williams would ring me every

22 -- I think every three months or something.

23 238 Q. Yes?

24 A. And it would be, "Mr. Lynam, the interest is so much

25 this month," and I would say, "You can renew it."

26 239 Q. Yes?

27 A. And maybe a week or two afterwards she would send me

28 a note. Sometimes but then sometimes she didn't.

29 240 Q. She would send it to you in the post?

35



1 A. Yes.

2 241 Q. Yes. However, did you ever go in to see

3 Ms. Williams?

4 A. No, I never went to go to see her no.

5 242 Q. Right?

6 A. But I went in there. The only time I saw her was

7 when Traynor was there.

8 243 Q. Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 244 Q. You told us about those?

11 A. Yes.

12 245 Q. You were telling us there also that your niece,

13 Eileen Lynam, gave you some documents?

14 A. Yes.

15 24 6 Q. From which you were able to prepare your statement

16 today?

17 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).

18 247 Q. Could you ask her Ms. Lynam if she has some more?

19 A. No, I asked her to give us I asked her to ask her

20 father.

21 248 Q. Yes?

22 A. He is very sick.

23 249 Q. Yes?

24 A. "Had he any documents in relation to the account

25 because I hadn't got any?"

26 250 Q. Yes?

27 A. Because he used to keep everything.

28 251 Q. Yes?

29 A. But she said that she would get some for me and the

36



1 next thing her brother brought in this thing to me.

2 It just gave me details of that.

3 252 Q. Yes?

4 A. That is all.

5 253 Q. Yes?

6 A. It only related to me.

7 254 Q. Yes?

8 A. What we started with and things like that.

9 255 Q. Would you ask her Mr. Lynam if she has a copy of the

10 letter of wishes that is referred to in this letter?

11 A. Yes.

12 256 Q. Would you ask her that?

13 A. Yes.

14 257 Q. And ask her if she has a copy of The Trust Deed?

15 A. Yes.

16 258 Q. Would you mind?

17 A. Yes.

18 259 Q. Thank you very much. The other thing I wanted to

19 ask you, is your brother still living, is he?

20 A. Yes.

21 260 Q. Yes. Is he in good health?

22 A. No.

23 261 Q. Is he not?

24 A. No, not in good health at all.

25 262 Q. Yes?

26 A. Pretty bad.

27 263 Q. Is he?

28 A. Yes.

29 264 Q. Could you give us his address?

37



1 A. La Vista Avenue, Sutton. 18 La Vista Avenue,

2 Sutton.

3 265 Q. 18?

4 A. La Vista Avenue, Sutton.

5 266 Q. La Vista Avenue, Sutton?

6 A. Sutton. I think it is 18 he is in.

7 267 Q. Okay.

8 A. James Lynam.

9 268 Q. That is Dublin 13?

10 A. I don't know. I am not too sure.

11 269 Q. I think so. Okay. That is all the questions I have

12 for you. Thanks, Mr. Lynam.

13

14 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. LYNAM BY MS. MACKEY

15

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I think that is everything

17 Mr. Lynam. Your statement

18 today will be transcribed and we would ask you to

19 come in to sign the transcript of evidence. If you

20 want a copy of the transcript we can supply it to

21 you.

22 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You have to pay for it

24 unfortunately according to

25 the rules but we can supply it to you.

26 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We would be glad if you

28 could get us any further

29 information now that we have raised with you.



1 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You could ask Mr. Shields

3 to send it on to us.

4 MR. LYNAM: Sure, yes. So, in other

5 words I look into the few

6 questions.

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Look into these matters

8 that we have raised with

9 you.

10 MR. LYNAM: Yes.

11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You could, if you would

12 like to, incorporate it

13 into a further more detailed statement and send on

14 the documents to us through your solicitor, that

15 would be fine.

16 MR. LYNAM: Okay. Yes.

17 MR. SHIELDS: Sorry, there are not any

18 more letters that we

19 should be aware of?

20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No.

21 MR. SHIELDS: No.

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Okay.

23 MR. SHIELDS: Thank you.

24

25 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.

26

27

28

29

39



THE EXAMINATION WAjv-jyHEN CONCLggatf.

O W e f t - "J 7 /



UNSWORN STATEMENTOF

MR. EDDIE LYNAM

I refer to your letter of 21st December, 1999.

In approximately July, 1979,1 received a telephone call from Mr. Des Traynor. He

asked me whether I had any monies to invest. I said that I would consult with my

brother and would talk to him in due course.

My brother and I met with Mr. Des Traynor some time ater. Mr. Des Traynor said

that the monies would be deposited in a Bank in the Cayman Islands of which he was a

director. A joint deposit account was opened for my brother and I in August, 1979.

We were told at this time that the rate of return would be approximately 16.75%.

The monies remained in that account without any further lodgements or withdrawals

by me until approximately April, 1987, when, it would appear, the joint-deposit

account was split. I do not recall any instruction from me to split the joint-deposit

account. I made no further lodgements to my account following the division of thejoint-deposit account.

I should mention that occasionally I received telephone calls from Mr. Des Traynor

and Ms. Joan Williams who informed me of the balance in my account from time to

time.

On 6th March, 199S I instructed Mr. Padraig Collery to close my account and to

transfer the monies when the account was closed.

I note in your letter to me of 21st December, 1999, at paragraph 6 of Appendix C

thereof you refer to the Exchange Control Acts (1954-1992). I do not know whether

1477-001/EC/DK/SB/StateeLdoc



any application was m$de on ray behalf under the Exchange Control Acts (1954

1992).

Further, I have no recollection of a letter of wishes having been signed by me,

however, it is apparent from correspondence from Mr. Des Traynor (an extract of

which I enclose herewith) that I may have signed such a letter of wishes. As you have

indicated in your letter of 21st December, 1999 that you have no interest in financial

details, I have been advised by my Solicitors that it is appropriate that the portion of

this letter relating to financial details be blocked out.

I have written to Mr. Padraig Collery asking him to furnish to me any books and

records pertaining to my account in his possession (if same are to hand) and I amawaiting his reply.

Dated this day of March, 2000

EDDIE LYNAM

1477-001/EC/DK/SB/Stateel.doc



niiKiMerc a a a h o N C A Y MA* ' TRUST LIMITED

A Mambar of ttia Qulmwu Mahon Marchant Banking Group

V.Talephona No 9-4653/ 4

Talax CP 305

Cable Addraas Guinness

3rd December, 1979.

yourraf

our rat

Messrs. Edward Lynam,313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Dear Sirs,

We confirm having accepted the following funds fromyou:

Value:

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:

Interest at Maturity:

Amount Maturing:

Tours faithfully,GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.

R0. Box 88?

Grand Cayman

British West Indies


Edward Lynam.

1 Month to 31/12/1979.

Direct.



GUINNESS M AHON CAYM AN TRUST LIMITED

Tklcphon* No 9-4653/4

CablaAddrass Guinnats

CP 308

RO. Box 887

Grand Cayman

Britiah Waat Indie*

2nd January, 1980.

yourraf

ourrtf

Messrs. Edward Lynam,

313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Dear Sirs,


Value: 31st December, 1979.

Amount:

For Account: Edward Lynam.

Term: 1 Month to 31/1/1980.

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Direct.

Amount Maturing:

Yours faithfully,GUINNESS MAHON CAIMAN TRUST LTD



wda ym an p i jst l imited

A tMtow of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group

TWephoneNo 9-4863/4

Telex CP 305

Cable Address Guinneaa

yourref

our ref

Messrs. Edward3B Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Lynam,

P.O. Box 887

Grand Cayman

Britiah West Indies

3rd March, 1980.

i f

Dear Sirs,

le confirm having accepted the following funds fromyou:

Value:

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:

29th February, 1980.

Edward Lynam.

1 Month to 31st March, 1980.

Direct.

Yours faithfully,GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED.



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITEDA Member of tha Gulnnesa Mahon Merchant Banking Group

Telephone No 9-4853/4

Tele* CP 305

Cable Address Guinness

your raf

our raf

Messrs. Edward313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Lynam,

P.O. Box 88 7

Grand Cayman

Britiah West Indiea

2nd April, 1980.

Dear Sirs,

We confirm having accepted the following funds from

you:

Value:Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:

31st March, 1980.

Edward Lynam.

3 Months to 30th June, 1980.

Direct.

Tours faithfully,

GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED

L ULu.



miWMESR m ah o n tru st limitedA Member of the Guinnesa M»hon Merchant Banking Group

Telephone No 9-4653/4 \ , , P 0. Box 687 i j

Telex CP 4305 Grand Cayman

Cable Address Guinness British West indies

your r*f

our ref

11th September, 198

Messrs. Edward313 Havan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Lynam,

Dear Sin,


Value:

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Maturity:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:

31st August, 1981.

Edward

1 month

Lynam

30th September, 1981.

Direct.

Yours faithfully,

GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.

, L : QLju .



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED119 vsrvup

Telephone No 9- 4653/4

Telex CP 430S

Cable Address Guinness

»

>

P. 0 Box 887w

Grand Cayman

British West Indies

your ref

our ref

1st March, 1982.

Messrs. Edward Lynam,313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Dear Sirs,


Value:

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Maturity:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:

28th February, 1982.

Edward Lynam.

1 month.

31st March, 1982.

Direct.

Yours faithfully,


OLu



Appendix XV (69) (l )( i)



\Ttf. 79644/794834Talac 33B67

FacskniBr. 720642

STRICTLY PERSONAL

E.P. Lynam, Esq.,313 Navan Road,DPBLIN 7.

3 TR I NI TY STR E E T,D U B L I N 2 .

Q

4th November, 1986.

Dear Eddie,

The split effective 3rd September is:

Since inception instructions have been given by youvia Joan Williams or myself. Attached hereto theoriginal letters of wishes from you both. I have no ideawhat is included. i

" • When you have had the opportunity to consider pleasering^to advise me of the position.

Kindest regards,

Yours sincerely,

JDT/AJW

J.D. Travnor.



Appendix XV (69) (1) (j)



A Mntktr eftht lUnry AruMur UoUh*i FUC Utrtfitnt Mmk*g Oro

Pleue reply to:42 FlttwQliun SquareDublin 1Tfel: 765144/763065Rue: 612035

P.a Bos 117, Ckmad CQROM, Britkfc Wm latinPtmiK (Mf) MM4S3/4

IMMC GP4MSFuc(Mf) 949-7946

(109) 9494267

Garrett Logan, Bag.,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Nerrion Square,D D B L I N 2 .

5th March, 1991

Dear Garrett,

Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.£15,000.00 to

Ulster Bank Isle of Han Limited.

for credit to the Account of Edward F. Lynam, Account No.601195.

The cost should be debited to our Call Account

Youra sincerely,

J.P. Traynor.

"Tltt^

D/c. o&a

i S G N A T U ^

l r H6C K6P

JDT/AJW

J<9

10-2.



Appendix XV (69) (l )(k )



A Mtmbtr of ih* Httvy Arubethtr Hokttngi PLC Mtrdumt Ba.1

if Please reply to:42 Fitzwilliam Square,Dublin 2.Tel: 765144/763063Fax: 612035

P.O. Box 1*7, Onmd Caymu, Brittt W ot JadittPhone (109) 94»4&3J/4

Ttlwc CPOMFuc (MM) 949-79*4

(1091 W-J267

5th June, 1991Garrett Loqran, Sag.,Irish intercontinental Bank Limited91 Marrion Square,DOBLIM 2.

j Dear Garrett,

Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.ei4,483.32 to

• Ulster Bank Isle of Man Limited.

for credit to the Account of Edtrard P. Lynam, Account No.601195.

The cost should be debited to our Call Account No.02/01087/81.

Yours sincerely,

/AJW

Z2T?



Appendix XV (69) (1) (I)



. \

... •

A Mtmbtr of th* Htnry Ambsehtr HoiOngs PLC Mtrdmu BankingPleue reply to:42 FitzwfllUm Square,Dublin ZTfel: 765144/763065F)u: 612035

P.O. Box 117, OtMd Otymn, Ml* W«t bdfa*Pfcow: (109) 94W6J3/4

T t t a C P 4 3MB ms (109) MM946

(809) 949-3267

Garrett Logan, Bsq.,Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,91 Merxion Square,DUBLIN 2.

5th September, 1991

Dear Garrett,

Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg,^12,709.85 to

Ulster Bank xsl« of Han Liraiti

for credit to the Account of Edward P. Li tarn, Account No.601195.The cost should be debited to our Call < boouat No. 02/01087/81 .•

Yours sinoerely,

For AM8BACHBR LIMITED

/AJW

2 g

T



Appendix XV (69) ( l) (m )



REVISED UNSWORN STATEMENT O F

EDDIE LYNAM

I, Eddie Lynam, make this statement supplemental to my unsworn Statement o f 23rd

March, 2000.

I should mention that I was asked on 23rd March, 2000 by the Honourable Mr. Justice

Costello to ascertain whether I had any further documentation, including any trust

documentation or letters of wishes.

When I met with the Inspectors on 23rd March, 2000 I furnished to them all

documentation which was within my possession, power or procurement at that time.

Subsequent to my meeting w ith the Inspectors, I carried out a further search of my

house (having previously carried out thorough searches at my hom e) and I uncovered

further documentation that I had not been aware of prior to the meeting.

I enclose further copy bank statements from Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. As you

previously indicated to me by letter dated 23rd December, 1999 that you have no

interest infinancial details, I have accordingly been advised by my Solicitors that it is

appropriate for me to delete such details. I have also uncovered two letters of wishes,

one dated 3rd September, 1981, the other dated 5th March, 1987.

In February, 19 941 instructed Mr Des Traynor to transfer my account into the namesof my son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam, for convenience purposes

only. My children were aware that the beneficial interest in the monies would remain

with me.

I also enclose herewith further correspondence received by me fro m Mr Padraig

Collery, Ms Joan Williams and Mr Des Traynor which I discovered as a result of my

recent search. It would also appear from the documentation enclosed herewith that on



certain occasions where Mr Des Traynor was unable to contact me (to receive

instructions), the deposit was "rolled over", by Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, on his

instructions.

I can now also confirm that the joint-account which I held with my brother was split

in approximately March, 1987. This is evidenced by a letter from Mr Des Traynor.

On 23rd March, 2000 I was under the mistaken belief that at no stage did I transfer

any funds to an account in the Isle of Man. It would appear from the documentation

enclosed herewith (that I have recently discovered) that monies were transferred to

Ulster Bank, Isle o f Man, by Mr Des Traynor, on my instructions. I apologise for any

confusion that might have been caused in this regard. Without the benefit of this

information I would not have been in a position to confirm that I gave these

instructions to Mr. Des Traynor. I still have no recollection o f giving these

instructions to Mr. Des Traynor.

As you are aware, I wrote to Mr Padraig Collery asking him to furnish to me any

documentation that he might have had in relation to my account. I also wrote to

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited and Mr. Cathal Mac Carthy o f Guinness Mahon

(Ireland) Limited. I have not received a reply from any of these parties.

Mr Eddie Lynam

(1477/001 EC/DOCS/STATE2.DOC)



Appendix XV (69) ( l) (n )



D B M B iOLICITORS

39/40 UPPER MOUNT STRICTDUBLIN 2, IRELAND.

Ms. Mary Cumm ins,Solicitor to the Inspectors,3rd Floor,Trident H ouse,

TELEPHONE: 353+1 Ml 0M«FACSIMILE: 393+1 Ml 0SS3D.D.B. BOX NO: 123E - M A I L : e m a l M l k i h t « l d ( . t c

W E B S I T E : h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e

oueref , 1477-001/LKS/EC/010611L2

Blackrock,Co. Dublin YOUR REF: C/L06/MLC/mf

22ndJune, 2001

Re: Oar Client: Edward P. Lynam

Dear Ms. Cummins,jmm m

We refer to your letter of 12*h inst.

Our client instructs us to respond to your letter as follows:-

Regarding paragraphs 1 and 2

As you are aware, our client instructed Mr Desmond Traynor to transfer his account held with Ansbacher

(Cayman) Limited ("Ansbacher") to the names of his son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam.Our client gave this instruction to Mr Traynor for convenience purposes only (our client retaining thebeneficial interest in the monies), however, our client is not sure whether he communicated this specificfact to Mr Traynor. Our client instructs us that after receiving Mr Traynor's reply of 7^ March, 1994,our client received no further correspondence from Mr Traynor or Mr Collery to the best of hisknowledge and that any other correspondence relating to this account was sent to Ms Mary Lynam.

Our client understands that Ms. Mary Lynam and Mr Bryan Lynam wrote to Mr Collery by letter dated22nd February, 1995 on our client's instructions and instructed him to transfer the funds held withAnsbacher to an account in Ulster Bank (Isle of Man) Limited. This letter also sought confirmation thatthe account with Ansbacher had been closed.

Regarding Paragraph 3

As previously advised, our client instructs us that to the best of his knowledge no lodgments were madeto the account held by him with Ansbacher after the initial lodgment. The correspondence referred to inyour letter under reply refers to the bank account being "rolled over" on a periodic basis.

We trust this letter clarifies your queries.

UUMNCt K. MMMK RMUMD IUTUX. I-ATKIC1A MCCOVON, MUCH CAKVR JOMECH U. C IN, MOT U4X CMAKD HAIIINNY.HIOTN McMNNA, UtCHACL KAVANACH, tUClNl FANNING, DAVID J-H. WIUJAk* HON* THOKNTON, NlCTX.A l-AUKK.AOIFt MAOUY. CrtnUN WOMAN, SKMHAN BUCKUKFAULA DUMCI. KXN CUNMtN. PHILIP DAW, PAT a n . ARCO W. HKKIY.IANS MOHAN. CONOR MUtiANJAMSS McClUJCHMAMH MdCaoKOHAICHOrDMYa. OUVALO- HAIKMAM jeJNmx O' Mill . CAMHAN a NUALLAIN • COKA CHAWTON T m m M nMkil THOMAS IACKSON (CemHaiHt

You rs taithflilly.

L K SHIELD S. SOLICITORS.





Appendix XV (71) Mr James Lynam , deceased

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MrJames Lynam.

a) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.

b) Letter of 3 December 1979 - GMCT to Edward and James Lynam.

c) Letter of 2 January 1980 - GMCT to Edward and James Lynam.

d) Calculation of interest on A/A5A a/c from 1 April 1997 to 30 June 1997.



UNSW ORN STATEMENT OF Mr. James LynamPrepared for the Inspectors A ppointed by O rder of the High C ourt to Ansb acher

(Cayman) Ltd

I have been involved in a property company known as E & J Lynam Properties Ltdfor very many years. The Company started about 55 years ago and has been bu ildingproperties in and around the Dublin Area ever since.. I was familiar with Des T raynoras he audited the company accounts for many years; At that time he was with the.firm Haughey Bo land Accountants.

In or about 1979 during a discussion with Mr. Traynor he said that if I wished toinvest money he could arrange for this and I would get a better rate of interest. The

initial conversation was relatively short. I do hot remem ber it in detail however hedid say that the monies , would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records Ithink this conversation and my initial investment, which occurred with my brother

E tcX ^ j c m - A -Jatfies, nannen*d in or about 1979.

I brl ir/e the rv-nies v e rs lodged with IU Za. s&uic of Guinness MahonCayman Trust Ltd. I never heard of this Bank before.

I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trus t There is areference in some of my papers to a Letter of Wishes however I do not have a copy ofsame.

I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this dep osit This is largelybecause there were no additions o r .withdrawals from the account until circa 1990. I

f 0 * think it was around this time also that the account which I held join tly with m ybrother was split into two separate accounts.

I received letters from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances andinterest accrued and I have enclosed copies of those which I have retained. I alsoreceived letters from Des Traynor directly from his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.However I had little or no direct contact with him. In 1985 I developed kidneyfailure and suffered ill health until I had a successful kidney transplant in M ay 1989.

In reality up to this time the money merely sat in the account and I took very littleinterest in it.

After my transplant I took mo re interest in the account and had some contact with D es

Traynor at 42 Fitzwilliam Square. M y practice was to telephone his office and talk

with Ms. Williams to advise the particular amount I wished to withdraw and some

days later I wo uld call to the office and collect the amou nt in cash. In this period I

held some mon ies in a call deposit account and other monies in a fixed deposit

accoun t. I continu ed to receive letters from Mr. Trayn or during the period

confirming the up to date p osnicr..



In or about 1994 Mr. Traynor told me about Mr. John Furze and a Mr. PadraigCollery and said that if I had any queries Mr. Collery would handle them on m ybehalf if he (Mr. Traynor) was not available. After Mr. Traynor's death I either made

. contact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies afterMr. Traynor's death I would contact Mr. Collery by phone and collect it in the usual

• way. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.

In June 1995 I divided the money into three accounts yvhich the documentation showswere numbered A /A5-A, A /A5-D, A /A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide threeseparate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Mary could draw. Theyhave dealt directly with Mr. Collery since that time.

Eventually the iiree accounts were closed in late 1997.

In relation to the .questions raised in A ppendix C the following are my replies, to thebest of my knowledge: . ..

1. (a) There was no Trust(b) Monies first ransferred in 1979 .(c) None(d) onwards(e) Not relevant(f) I have no copy of a letter of wishes although it appears from my

records that one was signed(g) No Trustees involved. I dealt directly w ith Mr. Traynor and M r.

Collery.

2. . I did not avail of this service

3.-7. Not relevant

8. None.



Appendix XV (71) (l )( b )



GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITEDA Member of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group

Telephone No 9-4653/ 4

Tele x . CP 305

Cabl e Address Guinness

P.O.Box 887

Grand Cayman

British West Indies

your ref

our ref

3rd December, 1979.

.

Messrs. Edward & James Lynam,313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

Dear Sirs,


Value:

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Rate % -per— annum:.

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:


£322,299.17

Edward and James Lynam.

1 Month to 31/12/1979.

16| %.Direct.

£4,482.39

£326,781.56

Yours faithfully,

GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN" TRUST LIT).



Appendix XV (71) (l)(c)



Telephone No

Telex

Cable Addre ss

GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITEDA Member of (he Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group

9—46S3/ 4

CP 30 5

Guinness

RO. Box 887

Grand Cayman

Brit ish West indi es

" 2nd January, 1980.

your ref

our ref

Messrs. Edward & James Lynam,

^ 313 Navan Road,DUBLIN 7.

."•••&S

r

Dear Sirs,

We confirm having accepted the following funds from

you:

Value: •

Amount:

For Account:

Term:

Rate % per annum:

Arranged through:


Amount Maturing:

31st December, 1979.

£326,781.56

Edward and James Lynam.

1 Month to 31/1/1980.

Direct.

£4,648.80

£331,430.36

Yours faithfully,


/ A ' / !



Appendix XV (71) (l)(d)



AJA5A

1/4/97

30/6/97.

Opening Balance

Drawn

Interest 1/4 - 30/6 @ 5.5%

91,003-56

11,003-56

80,000-00

1,084-93

81,084-93 -r• / w . -

M



Appendix XV (72) Ms Mary Lynam

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MsMary Lynam.

a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Mary Lynam dated 30 November 2000.

b) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Mary Lynam.

a) Letter of 7 December 2001 - Sheehan & Company Solicitors to theInspectors.



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. MARY LYNAM

UNDER OATH

ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL


Interviewee: MS. M. LYNAMRepresented by: MR. J. SHEEHAN

SHEEHAN & CO



1 INTERVIEW WITH MS. MARY LYNAM COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS

2 ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000:

3

4 MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, this will only

5 take a few moments.

6 Mr. Sheehan probably explained to you what we want.

7 We are going to take your evidence under oath.

8 Ms. Cummins will now administer the oath to you.

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3



1 MS. MARY LYNAM, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS INTERVIEWED

2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:

3

4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, just to clear

5 up some matters that arose

6 as a result of a statement that your father sent in.

7 To explain to you as we explained to your sister --

8 this isn't a Tribunal or a court, it is simply an

9 interview, an information gathering exercise. If at

10 any stage you want to ask Mr. Sheehan anything or

11 get advice from him, tell us and we will stop.

12 Likewise he knows that he can do the same if he

13 wants to advise you. Perhaps we could give

14 Ms. Lynam a copy of her father's statement to refer

15 to it. Are you familiar with this statement that

16 was prepared (EXHIBIT 1)?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 2 Q. If you would just look at the very last page of it.

19 You will see on the second paragraph that your

20 father describes the dividing of the account in 1995

21 into three separate accounts, one of which was

22 A/A5-A related to himself, A/A5-G related to your

23 sister and A/A5-D which appears to be related to

24 you?

25 A. Yes.

26 3 Q. At the time that happened did your father explain to

27 you what he was doing. I am only asking you about

28 A/A5-D?

29 A. I think it was after he had split it, then he told

4



1 us what he had done. He explained that he had this

2 money and it was in an account.

3 4 Q. Did he tell you where it was?

4 A. I think he would have said that it was in the

5 Caymans. I think that is where. I am not 100% sure

6 about where. I certainly knew it wasn't in Dublin.

7 5 Q. Did he tell you why he was doing this, dividing it

8 up?

9 A. His health; he wasn't very well. I think he was

10 afraid that he would die and the money would be

11 lost. He wanted us to know about it. Then he

12 introduced us and explained about splitting the

13 account. He then introduced us to Padraig Collery.

14 6 Q. Was that the occasion when Padraig Collery came out

15 to your father's house?

16 A. Yes .

17 7 Q. You and your sister were there?

18 A. Yes .

19 8 Q. Were you present at that meeting?

20 A. Yes. Padraig was introduced to us.

21 9 Q. Did he himself explain anything to you,

22 Padraig Collery, about how this worked?

23 A. No, I don't remember him saying very much at all.

24 I think my father had explained to us the money that

25 he would draw. He then suggested that we would draw

26 from the account.

2710 Q.

An account specific to yourself?

28 A. Yes .

29 11 Q. Did you know that there was an account specifically



1 for you that you could draw from?

2 A. Yes, I think I did.

3 12 Q. Did you know -- I am not asking you for figures --

4 how much was in that account?

5 A. Yes, he would have told us.

6 13 Q. You knew what was there available for you?

7 A. Yes .

8 14 Q. After that date did you in fact draw on that account

9 at all?

10 A. We would have, yes.

11 15 Q. Just you yourself?

12 A. What would happen is that my father would explain to

13 us how he used to draw it and he expected us to do

14 the same. I think fairly much the same amounts

15 were getting withdrawn and Eileen and I had some of

16 it.

17 16 Q. I am not quite clear about this. It wouldn't be a

18 case that you would decide you needed money for

19 something and withdraw it as you would draw it from

20 a bank account here in Dublin. Is that the way it

21 worked?

22 A. No, we would have drawn what he had been drawing.

23 17 Q. He had been drawing regular sums?

24 A. Yes .

25 18 Q. For you and your sister?

26 A. Over the years he would have given us bits and

27 pieces, not very regularly. But then he started

28 giving us money a little bit more regularly after I

29 had separated. In 1995 he said that he would draw



1 the interest every three months or every

2 four months.

3 19 Q. Effectively what happened was that at the end of the

4 three-month period while this was on fixed deposit

5 you would effectively draw off the interest?

6 A. Yes. Sometimes he would then suggest that he would

7

8

want to draw more. He would say 'We will draw more'

or sometimes if Eileen or I had a particular event

9 we would say 'Can we draw more?'

10 20 Q. It was never a question that you as such said

11 'Now I need some money, I should get some.'

12 You just did this automatically at the end of the

13 three-month period?

14 A. Yes, we followed my father's system.

15 21 Q. In fact did you initiate a withdrawal ever?

16 A. Without speaking to my father first or without

17 informing my father?

18 22 Q. Or even just you deciding you wanted it and then

19 informing your father that you were doing it?

20 A. I couldn't honestly say because it was coming in a

21 set pattern. Whether I would have said 'Can I take

22 some more' or should I, I probably might have done.

23 I probably would have if there was something I

24 needed.

25 23 Q. Some necessity that arose?

26 A. Something that was coming up.

27 24Q.

In the event that you wanted to do something like

28 that, would you contact Padraig Collery?

29 A. No, Eileen usually did it. Maybe I telephoned him



1 once.

2 25 Q. She was the contact person for Padraig Collery?

3 A. Because she was the older sister.

4 26 Q. That is the way it was done. Basically she did it

5 for all three of you?

6 A. Yes, she did.

7

8

27 Q. When it came to the closing of the account in 1997

did you have any part in dealing with the closing

9 down of the account?

10 A. At that stage my father was sicker. I think he

11 wouldn't have been out of the house very often at

12 that stage. I took whatever advice was available

13 and we said that the best thing to do would be to

14 close it, so we did.

15 28 Q. When you say advice was available, what advice would

16 you have got at that stage?

17 A. From Padraig Collery.

18 29 Q. When the accounts were closed down I understand from

19 your sister that they were moved temporarily

20 somewhere else?

21 A. Yes .

22 30 Q. Two of them were amalgamated, namely yours and your

23 father's?

24 A. Yes .

25 31 Q. How or why did that arise?

26 A. Because my father was ill and he couldn't travel.

27 He was put into a situation that the money was being

28 moved. He would have had no access to it except

29 through one of us. And to open up the account.



1 I think it was just because he wouldn't have any

2 access to the money at all unless it was put in my

3 name.

4 32 Q. So it was put in your name?

5 A. Yes .

6 33 Q. The two accounts at that stage then were in your

7 name and your sister's name?

8 A. Yes, they would have been. They weren't in our

9 names, they were in company names.

10 34 Q. I had understood that from your sister. No doubt

11 there was a signatory who could deal with the

12 accounts in the companies names. Would that have

13 been you and your sister in respect to the two

14 accounts?

15 A. Yes. The accounts were put into company names.

16 It was then explained how we could access these

17 accounts. When you said did I ever sign anything,

18 it would have been the letter if we had sent one in

19 arranging for some funds.

20 35 Q. You and your sister basically could deal with these

21 accounts on behalf of your father?

22 A. Yes .

23 36 Q. Finally the other question I want to ask you is --

24 during the period that they were on deposit, these

25 three separate accounts both in Cayman and

26 subsequently in this temporary offshore location,

27 did you in respect of A/A5-D return to the

28 Revenue Commissioners the interest that was accruing

29 on your account?



1 A. No, I haven't.

2 37 Q. That is all I want to ask you. For the record can I

3 have a brief background of your career. Do you work

4 at the moment?

5 A. No, I don't, not at the moment. After a few years

6 working in secretarial and accounts work I went into

7 the family building company. I worked there until

8 about three or four years ago.

9 38 Q. You were in E & J Lynam Properties Limited?

10 A. Yes.

11 39 Q. You are not working now?

12 A. No, I am not.

13 40 Q. Thank you very much, Ms. Lynam. We haven't any

14 other questions to ask you. Thank you for doing

15 this today. It saves us writing to you and asking

16 you to come back another day.

17

18 END OF INTERVIEW OF MS. MARY LYNAM

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

10



UNSWORN STATEMENT OF Mr. James LynamPrepared for the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher

(Cayman) Ltd

I have been involved in a property company known asE&S Lynam Properties Ltdfor very many years. The Company started about 55 years ago and has been building

properties in and around the Dublin Area ever since. I was familiar with Des Traynoras he audited the company accounts for many years. At that time he was with thefirm HaugheyBoland Accountants.

In or about 1979 during a discussion with Mr. Traynor he said that if I wished toinvest money he could arrange for this and I would get a better rate of interest Theinitial conversation was relatively short. I do not remember it in detail however hedid say (hat the monies would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records Ithink this conversation and my initial investment, which occurred with my brother•James, happen^ in or about 1979.

I Li.Hi.ve the z^c^ies Woiw lodged with jj«ui&. ior tuc Uaiue o f Guinness Mahon

Cayman Trust Ltd I never heard of this Bank before.

I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trust There is areference in some of my papers to a Letter of Wishes however I do not have a copy ofsame.

I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this deposit This is largelybecause there were no additions or withdrawals from the account until circa 1990. Ithink it was around this time also that the account which I held jointly with mybrother was split into two separate accounts.

I received letters from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances and

interest accrued and I have enclosed copies of those which I have retained. I alsoreceived letters from Des Traynor directlyfrom his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.However I had little or no direct contact with him. In 1985 I developed kidneyfailure and suffered ill health until I had a successful kidney transplant in May 1989.In reality up to this time the money merely sat in the account and I took very littleinterest in it

After my transplant I took more interest in the account and had some contact with DesTraynor at 42 Fitzwilliam Square. My practice was to telephone his office and talkwith Ms. Williams to advise the particular amount I wished to withdraw and somedays later I would call to the office and collect the amount in cash. In this period Iheld some monies in a call deposit account and other monies in a fixed deposit

account. I continued to receive letters from Mr. Traynor during the periodconfirming the up to date position.



In or about 1994 Mr. Traynor told me about Mr. John Furze and a Mr. PadraigCollery and said that if I had any queries Mr. Collery would handle them on m ybehalf if he (Mr. Traynor) was not available. After Mr. Traynor's death I either madecontact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies afterMr. Traynor's death I would contact Mr. Collery by phone and collect it in the usualway. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.

In June 19951 divided title money into three accounts which the documentation showswere numbered A/A5-A, A/A5-D, A/A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide threeseparate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Maxy could draw. Theyhave dealt directly with Mr. Colleiy since that time.

Eventually the three accounts wore closed in late 1997.

In relation to the .questions raised in Appendix C the following are my replies, to thebest of my knowledge:

1. (a) There was no Trust(b) Monies first transferred in 1979(c) None(d) i, '.'0 onwards(a) relevant(f) I have no copy of a letter of wishes although it appears from my

records that one was signed(g) No Trustees involved. I dealt directly with Mr. Traynor and Mr.

Collery.

2. I did not avail o f this service

3.-7. Not relevant

8. None.



S h e e h a n & C o m p a n yS O L I C I T O R S

I C L A R E S T R E E T D U B L I N 2. T E L E P H O N E (II 6 6 16 9 22

T E L E F A X (II 6 6 I 0 0 I .V D . D . E . I < X

JPS/DC/L367 C/L08/NSPM 7 t h December 2001th

Inspectors appointed b y Order of the High CourtTo Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd3 r d Floor

d

Trident HouseBlackrockCo. Dublin

FAX: 283 3929

RE: O ur Client: Ms. Mary Lyn am

Dear S irs,

We acknoAvledge receipt of your letter dated 16 th November 2001 in relation to our abovenamed client.

Our client disagrees w ith the preliminary conclusion of the Inspectors that she was aclient of Ansbacher on the grounds that she never considered herself to be the truebeneficial owner of the funds in any particular account of that Institution.

Yours faithfullv

SHEEHAN & CO.

J E R E M I A H S H E K H A N B .A . DA V I D C . C O L B E R T B . A . . L L . B .

C R A I N N E A H E R N B . C . L . . M E L F E R G U S O N B . Sc . D . L . S. . D O L O R E S O ' K E E F F E B . C . L . .

GE RA RD CL E A R Y B .A . Di p I .S .. CHR I S V A N DE R L E E L L . B . ( 1.11 n d 11 n I

C O N S U L T A N T C i A R R E T T S H E E H A N B . C .L . L L . B .



Appendix XV (73) Ms Hedli MacNeice, deceased

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MsHedli MacNeice.

a) Guinness and Mahon loan decision memo of 31 May 1978.

b) Telex of 11 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT and telex of12 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GM CT.

c) Telex of 12 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GM CT.

d) Letter of 15 February 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GM CT.

e) Guinness and Mahon statement re GMCT of 17 January 1979.



L O A N .DECISION M i-J_M U ^

REFERENCE: ; MINUTE NUMBER: DATE:

\AM E OF APPLICANT: ^ g * ^ c A/«-uc*jnuaQp |f

Vy

^ M O U N T : 5 C?

PURPOSE:

W R M & S O UR CE O F R EP AY ME NT S: - / - ^ M W

-•••CiS

RATE: 517.

C O M M I T M E N T F E E:

D R A W D O W N : C t w .

SECURITY

. . . . » • . • . • • . . .

REVIEW DATE: . '

O T H E R R E L E V A N T C O M M E N T S F O RINC ORP ORA TIO N IN DECISION MEMO': M V .(Continued Overleaf)

AUTHORISED

. J

1 T\ n.c-^,..,-,!,^,,^ , Rnvicw Date Di?.ris«d



305GUINNESS CP5205 "MARS El

T C # X5UINNESS + MAHON CAYMAN TRUST

FROM GUIMSESS + MAHON, M I L DUB LI N

OATE 11TH JAN 19 77

PLEASE AUTHORISE ME TO REMIT TO MRS. MACN. IN PARIS FRENCH FRANCEQUIVALENT OF POUNDS STERLING SEVEN HUNQRED AND TO OEBIT SUN. SUBCO. ACCOUNT.

REGAROS RU.

15s \k

5205 MARS El

3056UINNESS CP

TELEX M ESSAGE

T 0 :John Furze Esq., Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.,

DATS ,2 / 1 / 77

TEST:

Reference my telex li/l/77 re Mrs.MacN. can you authorise payment asrequested - by return If possible.

Regards Ru

AUTHORISED BY:

DEBIT:

COST:

FILE:



3 0 5 G U IN N ES S CPr 5 2 &5 jMAFIS E l

TO GUI NN ESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST

FROM GUINNESS + MAHON, j DU BL I N

DATE I2 TH JAN I S7 7

FOR JOHN FURZE

REFERENCE MY TELEX I t / 1 / 7 7 RE MRS. MACN. CAN YOU AUTHORISE PAYMENTAS REQUESTED - BY RETURN I F PO SSI B LE.

REGARDS RU

16:22

5205 MARS El

3Q5GUINNESS CP

ft]

» —

l ^ o - o iif mio

r=v>

//a •



•-jft-r .• x-j 'H'f "r.• • . . .

•.. :v•' • - ; v . 1 - - - ' ' - V • ••

•• ' ••. :. ' )':• -X .

: 15th . February, 1977. * . • • • I •. • • .• ' " • " ' -VI"*' " ,

•'il • i

0.A.Furze, fq./,- J '' 'Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.P.O.Box. 887 . N " :. ' . *.

• ••• Grand Cayman,. 4 .BRITISH WEST INDIES;. P ; • .

!

. . V

y .

' Dear .John,4'

- I confirm W ttlex advlte of the 15th. Inst., "hen I advised yeu' < that I was debiting Sundry Sub.Company Account.£500.00 1n respect' c a s h handed to Mrs.MacN. on 10/2/77.

i • ••

? Yours sincerely,' *»• - • •

Jf -n. •

L " : 'T.RlEdNARU. '. MANAGER ACCOUNTS.

- '. • a--..

, .• > . •

•V* • .•

.jS^ v-"" y-.-



Appendix XV (70) Ms Eileen Lynam

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to MsEileen Lynam.

a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Eileen Lynam dated 30 November 2000.

b) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Ms Eileen Lynam.

a) Letter of 7 December 2001 - Sheehan & Company Solicitors to theInspectors.



PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. EILEEN LYNAM

UNDER OATH

ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000






Stenographer



PRESENT

The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL


Interviewee: MS. E. LYNAMRepresented by: MR. J. SHEEHAN

SHEEHAN & CO



1 INTERVIEW WITH MS. EILEEN LYNAM COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS

2 ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000:

3

4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, we are going to

5 begin our interview with

6 you in your own capacity. Because you have already

7 taken the oath we are not going to swear you again.

8 You are still under oath. We are commencing our

9 interview with you about your own affairs. For the

10 record can I have a little bit about yourself, your

11 career, your background?

12 A. I left school in 1975. I was at college, UCD, doing

13 a degree. I joined the Irish Times then in 1980

14 where I have worked for 20 years.

15 2 Q. As a journalist?

16 A. No, I work in the editor's office. I am his

17 personal assistant. I have worked part-time three

18 days a week since my twins were born in 1990.

19 3 Q. You are still with the Irish Times?

20 A. I am, yes.

21 4 Q. That is sufficient. Thank you very much. We can

22 do this very quickly because it is simply a matter

23 of dealing with what is here in your father's

24 statement (EXHIBIT 1), namely that in 1995 he

25 divided the money into three accounts numbered as we

26 have already listed them: A/A5-A, A/A5-D and

27 A/A5-G?

28 A. Yes.

29 5 Q. Your father says that the purpose of this was to

3



1 provide three separate funds on which he himself and

2 his two daughters could draw?

3 A. Yes.

4 6 Q. Speaking for yourself and not for your father or for

5 your sister, what did your father tell you about

6 that at that time?

7 A. He said that he no longer wanted to deal with

8 Padraig Collery because he wasn't able to because of

9 his health. He wasn't up to it. He wanted us to

10 look after it, to look after it on our own behalf

11 and on his behalf and to let him know if we wanted

12 to draw anything.

13 7 Q. When he told you this, had he already made this

14 arrangement or did he just make it then?

15 A. No, I think he called Padraig Collery out to the

16 house.

17 My sister and I were there and he introduced us.

18 8 Q. You were present at this meeting?

19 A. I cannot remember whether he told Padraig Collery

20 over the telephone in advance of it what his

21 intention was or whether he told him that day.

22 9 Q. But you were present at all times that day, were

23 you?

24 A. It was in 1995; I cannot remember whether my father

25 had five or ten minutes first with Padraig Collery.

26 I honestly can't. He probably did have a few

27 minutes.

28 10 Q. Can you tell me what occurred during the time you

29 were present. What did you learn personally?

4



1 A. Just that he was going to divide the accounts and

2 that myself and I would be dealing with Padraig

3 Collery in the future on my father's behalf. All

4 contact would come through me or my sister. Either

5 one of us were contactable.

6 11 Q. Did he tell that you that one account would be

7

8 A.

particularly for you?

Yes. The one that began with "G" would be for me

9 and the one that began with "D" would be for my

10 sister.

11 12 Q. This is because of your surnames?

12 A. The names of our husbands, yes.

13 13 Q. Did he tell you how he was dividing the amount of

14 money he was putting into it?

15 A. He did, yes.

16 14 Q. I am not asking you for figures; we are not

17 concerned with that?

18 A. He did say how he was dividing it up, yes.

19 15 Q. He told you how he would divide it. You knew

20 exactly how much would be in yours?

21 A. I did, yes.

22 i—

1

Q. You met Mr. Collery on that occasion?

23 A. I did, yes.

24 17 Q. You were introduced to him and he knew you were the

25 person who could deal with that account?

26 A. Yes .

27 18 Q. After that date did you in fact make any

28 withdrawals ?

29 A. I did, yes.



1 i—

1

vo

Q. When was the first one?

2 A. The accounts were to mature on a three-monthly

3 basis. I am trying to remember. Sometimes I think

4 it was every three months, sometimes it was every

5 six months.

6 20 Q. Did you understand at that stage where the money

7 was ?

8 A. Yes .

9 21 Q. You knew it was offshore?

10 A. I did, yes.

11 22 Q. Did you know the name of the entity it was with at

12 that stage?

13 A. Cayman islands. I don't think I knew the word

14 "Ansbacher" no.

15 23 Q. You were saying it rolled over every three to

16 six months?

17 A. Yes .

18 24 Q. When did you make your first withdrawal was the

19 question I asked?

20 A. As far as my recollection is, I think three months

21 after that.

22 25 Q. At the end of the first maturity?

23 A. Yes .

24 26 Q. You didn't withdraw the entirety at that stage?

25 A. No. My father's use of it was to provide money.

26 He used to take a small amount of money and divide

27 it then between my sister and myself. He wanted us

28 to continue in that vein. There was certainly no

29 question that we could go in and take everything.



1 27 Q. You withdrew a certain amount?

2 A. Yes .

3 28 Q. What did you do when you wanted to withdraw it.

4 Did you contact Mr. Collery?

5 A. Yes, I would tell my father. I would ask him did he

6 want anything from the balance of the other account,

7

8

the A/A5-A account. Invariably he did. I would

arrange for Padraig Collery to come to my house. I

9 would ring him.

10 29 Q. Would you tell him on the telephone what it was you

11 wanted and how much you wanted and he would bring it

12 then?

13 A. Yes .

14 30 Q. Is that the way it was done?

15 A. Yes .

16 31 Q. Did you yourself add anything to that fund?

17 A. No.

18 32 Q. According to your father's statement (EXHIBIT 1)

19 here all three accounts were closed in late 1997?

20 A. Yes .

21 33 Q. Can you explain to me how that arose?

22 A. It was obvious that the whole Ansbacher thing was in

23 the newspapers. I talked about it to my father and

24 what was the best option to do. The best option was

25 to close it. At that time or just shortly

26 afterwards I asked Padraig Collery for the name of a

27 solicitor. He introduced me to Jerry Sheehan.

28 34 Q. That was after the accounts were closed, was it?

29 A. I cannot remember the timing of that. I am trying



1 to remember the newspapers. It was around the

2 time. It was probably at the same time, 1997.

3 35 Q. Could you tell me about the closing of it, who

4 arranged that?

5 A. I asked Padraig Collery to arrange for the closure

6 of the accounts.

7 36 Q. How was that done. What happened to the money?

8 A. The money was transferred by bearer bonds.

9 37 Q. To?

10 A. It was transferred to a bank in another offshore

11 account.

12 38 Q. In whose name would that have been transferred?

13 A. It was changed into two company names:

14 North Verilin and West Avoca. I didn't know how to

15 arrange to get it back into the country at that

16 stage. I was taking legal advice on that.

17 39 Q. Just to be clear about this, there were three

18 accounts?

19 A. Yes.

20 40 Q. When you were closing them, were the funds kept

21 separately in their new home or amalgamated?

22 A. Two were amalgamated and one was kept separately.

23 41 Q. Which were the two that were amalgamated?

24 A. "D" and "A" were amalgamated.

25 42 Q. That is your sister's and your father's?

26 A. Yes. "G" was kept separately.

27 43 Q. Did it continue in that way?

28 A. It did, yes. That was a temporary measure until we

29 took legal advice on what was the best path to

8



1 pursue.

2 44 Q. Just to make clear in my questioning that I am not

3 concerned with what ultimately became of the money,

4 what I am concerned to know is whether you retained

5 control over your part of it?

6 A. I dealt with it with the bank, yes.

7 45 Q. I take it that it was repatriated at some stage?

8 A. Yes .

9 46 Q. Did you retain control of the part that had been

10 yours ?

11 A. No. The accounts were closed and a cheque issued to

12 my sister and I who we considered the beneficial

13 owner of the account, James Lynam, and they were

14 returned to Dublin and lodged to the Revenue

15 Commissioners.

16 47 Q. So the entirety of the funds went to your father?

17 A. Absolutely, yes.

18CO

^1 Q. I see. During the course of the time that the

19 money was on deposit in Ansbacher Cayman under the

20 code name A/A5-G it earned interest?

21 A. Yes .

22 49 Q. Did you personally return that interest during that

23 time to the Revenue Commissioners?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 50 Q. I don't think I need to ask you any more questions,

26 Ms. Lynam. Thank you very much.

27 A. Just to point out that my first meeting with Jerry

28 was in 1998. So that when I say we were taking

29 legal advice, my sister and I were discussing what



1 we should do. We didn't know what to do. My

2 father was too ill and we didn't like to discuss it

3 with him. We decided to lodge the money and then

4 work out what to do.

5 51 Q. That is fine. Thank you very much, Ms. Lynam.

6

7 END OF INTERVIEW WITH MS. EILEEN LYNAM

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

10



? OJ ^ CL/U i-

yvo-



UNSWORN STATEMENT O F Mr. James LynamPrepared for the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbach er

(Cayman) Ltd

I have been involved in a property company known as E & J Lynam Properties Ltdfor very many years. The Company started about 55 years ago and has been buildingproperties in and around the Dublin Area ever since. I was familiar with Des Traynoras he audited the company accounts for many years. At that time he was with thef irm Haughey Boland Accountants.

In or about 1979 during a discussion with Mr. Traynor he said that if I wished toinvest money he could arrange for this and I would get a better rate of interest. Theinitial conversation was relatively short. I do not remember it in detail however hedid say that the monies would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records Ithink this conversation and m y initial investment, which occurred with my brotherJames, happened in or about 1979.

I believe the monies were lodged with the Bank for the name of Guinness MahonCayman Trust I * J I never heard of ihis Bank before.

I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trust. There is areference in some of my papers to a Letter of Wishes however I do not have a copy of

same.I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this deposit. This is largelybecause there were no additions or withdrawals rom the account until circa 1990 . Ithink it was around this time also that the account which I held jointly with mybrother was split into two separate accounts.

I received letters from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances andinterest accrued and I have enclosed copies of those which I have retained. I alsoreceived letters ro m Des Traynor directly ro m his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.However I had little or no direct contact with him. In 1985 I developed kidneyfailure and suffered ill health until I had a successful kidney transplant in May 1989.In reality up to this time the money merely sat in the account and I took very little

interest in it.

After my transplant I took more interest in the account and had some contact with DesTraynor at 42 Fitzwilliam Square. My practice was to telephone his office and talkwith Ms. Williams to advise the particular amount I wished to withdraw and somedays later I would call to the office and collect the amount in cash. In this period Iheld some monies in a call deposit account and other monies in a fixed depositaccount. I continued to receive letters fr o m Mr. Traynor during the periodconfirming the up to date position.



In or about 1994 Mr. Traynor told me about Mr. John Furze and a Mr. PadraigCollery and said that if I had any queries M r. Collery would handle them on my

behalf if he (Mr. Traynor) was not available. After Mr. Traynor's death I either madecontact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies afterMr. Traynor's death I would contact Mr. Collery by phone and collect it in the usualway. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.

In June 1995 I divided the money into three accounts which the documentation showswere numbered AJAS-A, A/A5-D, A/A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide threeseparate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Mary could draw. Theyhave dealt directly with Mr. Collery since that time.

Eventually the three accounts were closed in late 1997.

In relation to the questions raised in Appendix C the following are my replies, to the

best of my knowledge:

(a) There was no Trust(b) Monies i rst transferred in 1979(c) None(d) 1990 onwards(o) Not relevant(f) J ' no copy oi a letter of wishes although it appears from my

records that ojin was signed(g) No Trustees involved. I dealt directly with Mr. Traynor and Mr.

Collery.

2. I did not avail of this service

3.-7. Not relevant

8. None.

r*

ansbacher cayman report appendix volume 7

Documents