arguments smashed.doc

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"Arguments Smashed"

Bombay,April 5, 1974

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Prabhupada: Dr. Patel: Which sloka, Giriraja, 19?

Giriraja: No, 23.

Dr. Patel:

rupam mahat te bahu-vaktra-netram

maha-baho bahu-bahuru-padam

bahudaram bahu-damstra-karalam

drstva lokah pravyathitas tathaham

"All are getting frightened of You, even myself."

Prabhupada: No, the thing is that bahu-vaktram bahudaram. That means bahu

persons, many persons, all persons. What is that?

Giriraja: "Rupam-form."

Prabhupada: Form. First thing is form. Although virat, but it includes so many

forms. Then?

Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "bahu-arms..."

Prabhupada: Arms, He is exhibiting many. The same formula. Eko bahu syam.

(indistinct) Then?

Giriraja: (Continues reading synonyms to:) "bahu-damstra-..."

Prabhupada: "Many bellies" means a personal form. Damstra karalam.

Giriraja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: O mighty-armed one, all the planets

with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms,

bellies and legs, and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I."
http://prabhupadavani.org/Morning_Walks/m3u/MW037.m3uhttp://prabhupadavani.org/Morning_Walks/m3u/MW037.m3u


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Prabhupada: Kala-rupa, kala-rupa. This is called kala-rupa. Then? Yes.

Dr. Patel:

nabhah sprsam diptam aneka-varnam

vyattananam dipta-visala-netram

drstva hi tvam pravyathitantaratma

dhrtim na vindami samam ca visno

Giriraja: (reads synonyms)

Dr. Patel: At the same time, all the gods were seeing the same thing?

Prabhupada: Visnu, this word has been used, "all-pervading, all-pervading

forms." It does not mean that because all-pervading, there is no form. Form is

there always.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

damstra-karalani ca te mukhani

drstvaiva kalanala-sannibhani

diso na jane na labhe ca sarma

prasida devesa jagan-nivasa

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of lords, O refuge of the

worlds, please be gracious to me. I cannot keep my balance seeing Your

blazing deathlike faces and awful teeth. In all directions I am bewildered."

Dr. Patel: There is no comment on that.

ami ca tvam dhrtarastrasya putrah

sarve sahaivanipala-sanghaih


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bhismo dronah suta-putras tathasau

sahasmadiyair api yodha-mukhyaih

vaktrani te tvaramana visanti

damstra-karalani bhayanakani

[break]

Prabhupada: ...earth, earth, and pala means kings. Protectors, raja-pala.

Dr. Patel: Our raja-pala, Giri. [break]

Giriraja: "All the sons of Dhrtarastra along with their allied kings, and Bhisma,

Drona and Karna, and all our soldiers are rushing into Your mouths, their

heads smashed by Your fearful teeth. I see that some are being crushed

between Your teeth as well."

Prabhupada: [break] ...leaders, they are entering into the mouth of the kala just

like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime

they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the

kala just like insects and flies. That's it. [break] ...plans, but there is no plan

how to stop...

Dr. Patel: Death.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the

kala. Just like a very good example: When there is fire and all the insects and

flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty.

Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir-artha-maninah...

They have been described in Bhagavata, bahir-artha-maninah. They are

thinking this beautiful nature as everything, "There is no other thing."

Dr. Patel: There is very good description in Twelfth..., these things. [break]

Giriraja: "I see all people rushing with full speed into your mouths as mothsdash into a blazing fire." [break]

Prabhupada: The doctors also will enter. (laughter) Not only the patient, but

the doctors also. Don't think that doctors will be excused. (laughter) No, no.

That is not possible.


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Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. [break]

Dr. Patel: Just like...

Prabhupada: He was thinking, "Oh, why shall I kill?"

Dr. Patel: "If I don't fight, they will live."

Prabhupada: Yes. It is already planned. So even if you don't kill, it is there

already.

Giriraja: (reads synonyms for following verse:) "Translation: The Blessed Lord

said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all

people. With the exception of you, the Pandavas, all the soldiers here on both

sides will be slain."

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further, sir, or you want to comment?

Prabhupada: Yes. The process is going on. Although we have got so many

plans to save, nobody can be saved. The destination, the bhutva bhutva

praliyate [Bg. 8.19], that will go on. Simply vita-raga-bhaya-krodha man-maya

mam upasritah [Bg. 4.10], they will be saved. Otherwise all finished.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? [break]

Giriraja: "Translation: Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering

your enemies, you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to

death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasacin, can be but an instrument in

the fight."

Prabhupada: So this is very important verse, that by kala, by time, due course

of time, everything will be destroyed. So our duty is uttistha...

Dr. Patel: Fall in line with His wish.

Prabhupada: Yes. He wishes sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam

vraja [Bg. 18.66], man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. This is our duty, not that "I

have got that duty, that duty, that duty." That duty, that duty will not save you.

They will be destroyed. Dehapatya-kalatradi. This is explained in Bhagavata.

dehapatya-kalatradisu


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atma-sainyesv asatsv api

pramattah tasya nidhanam

pasyann api na pasyati

[SB 2.1.4]

We are attached, deha, this body. Apatya, children. Dehapatya-kalatradi, wife.

Kala... Because we increase through the wife, kalatradi. Dehapatya-

kalatradisu atma-sainyesu. We are thinking that "They are my soldiers. They

will save me from the clutches of death." Dehapatya-kalatradisv atma..., asatsv

api. They are not permanent. So although they are not permanent, they will be

killed, I am thinking, "They will save me, my soldiers." So pramatta, this

thought comes on account of becoming pramatta. Prakrsta-rupena matta,

mad. Yes. Pramatta tasya nidhanam. The plan is: everyone will be destroyed.

Tasya nidhanam pasyann api na pasyati. Although he has got experience that

"So many relatives, so many friends, so many family men, they have all died,

they could not save me, and what these, my wife, children and others, will

save me?" But because he is pramatta, pasyann api na pasyati, even though

he sees, he does not see.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Dronam ca bhismam ca jaya... [break]

Prabhupada: ...hesitating to kill Drona or Bhisma. They are teachers. But it is

duty. Krsna wanted. Because they were on the wrong side, they must be killed.

That was Krsna's desire. So he should execute. Jaya. [break]

Giriraja: "The Blessed Lord said: All the great warriors -- Drona, Bhisma,

Jayadratha, Karna -- are already destroyed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish

your enemies."

Prabhupada: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about ourKrsna consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the

credit. Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned

that "This time in Western countries, this sankirtana movement..." So it is our

duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other

things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme,

then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by


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the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad-gita, is explained

vyavasayatmika buddhir

ekeha kuru-nandana

bahu-sakha hy anantas ca

buddhayo 'vyavasayinam

[Bg. 2.41]

So those who are vyavasaya, niscayatmika-buddhi, their duty is to carry out

the orders of the Supreme. And the Supreme is giving order in two ways: as

caittya-guru from within and as spiritual master. Inside and outside.

Dr. Patel: Consult your atma within in action.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, to receive the order of Krsna, tad-vijnanartham

sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], one should approach the bona f ide

representative of Krsna and take order from Him what to do, and that is his

only duty. That is his only duty. Otherwise he will manufacture so many duties.

That will not be helpful to him. That niscayatmika-buddhih, that has been very

nicely explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, that "Whatever order I

receive from my guru, that is my life and soul. I don't mind whether I'll be

liberated or not, whether I will be successful or not. That is not my concern. My

only concern is to see whether I am factually, faithfully carrying out the order of

my guru." This is... Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura notes. So these things are

being explained in the same way that "You do not think which is right or wrong.

You simply... I have asked you to fight. You go on f ighting and take the credit.

That's all."

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sanjaya uvaca... [break]

Giriraja: "Sanjaya said to Dhrtarastra: O King, after hearing these words from

the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna trembled, fearfully offered

obeisances with folded hands and began, falteringly, to speak as follows."

Prabhupada: So without seeing visva-rupa, simply by abiding by the orders of


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Krsna, if we act, then there is no question of trembling.

Dr. Patel: So we must not try to see the visva-rupa, to tremble.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

arjuna uvaca

sthane hrsikesa tava prakirtya

jagat prahrsyaty anurajyate ca

raksamsi bhitani diso dravanti

sarve namasyanti ca siddha-sanghah

[break]

Giriraja: "O Hrsikesa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name, and

thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer

You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and

there. All this is rightly done." [break]

Prabhupada: Siddha, there is a Siddha-loka. So they can fly from one planet to

another without any machine, siddha-sangah. Means the asta-siddhi yogas,

they have got naturally.

Dr. Patel: All asta-siddhis, they have got.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are called siddha, Siddha-loka. Just like here if

anyone wants to walk over the water, he requires to acquire so much mystic

power. You see? Some of the yogis. But you will find one bird, skylark, one

swan, he is very easily doing.

Dr. Patel: They have siddhas from the birth.

Prabhupada: So they are trying to get that siddha, the perfection, by so much

yogic process, but another living entity, without understanding any yogic

process, can do that. So these things are not very great gains. There are... In

different planets there are different living entities. Just like we cannot touch

fire, but in the sun globe there are also life, human beings, but their body is

made of fire. Just like in the water. I cannot go into the water, but there are so


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many small fishes, they are living very nicely. So this we do not know. We are

trying to gain success in these material activities, but by God's will, there are

different living entities. They have already all the successes. So therefore our

real business is not to waste our time to get any material success. Our real

business is how we shall be successful to become an obedient servant ofKrsna. That's all. That is real success.


Prabhupada: (Hindi) Let me explain this. Just like Prahlada Maharaja was

offered benediction, "Now you take benediction." So he said that "Where is

benediction? I have seen my father was so powerful materially that even the

demigods, they were frightened. So even if I get certain material successes,

but you can finish it within a second. So why shall I take all these

benedictions? Please engage me as the servant of your servant. That is my

success."

Dr. Patel: Perpetual engagement in the service of...

Prabhupada: Yes. This is vaisnava-vicara.


Prabhupada: Yes. [break] It means they must. [break]

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "O great one, who stands above even Brahma, You

are the original master. Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O

limitless one? O refuge of the universe, You are the invincible source, the

cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation."

Prabhupada: So our duty is to accept the original Supreme, Krsna, because...

Dr. Patel: He is adi-karta.

Prabhupada: Adi-karta.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break]

Prabhupada: ...puranas, not new manufactured. [break] If I have to offer my

obeisances and surrender, why not to Krsna? Why an imitation Krsna? Why?

Just like if you go to purchase some medicine, the shopkeeper may say, "Now,

here is a medicine equal to this medicine, and its price is less." So no sane

man will purchase. "Why I shall purchase the imitation for being less price?

Give me the original." [break] ...the life of Ramakrishna. It is said that at the


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time of his death he said to his disciples, especially to Vivekananda, that "I am

the same Rama, I am the same Krsna," and he took it. And he preached that

"This Gadadhara Chatterjee, Ramakrishna." That's all. Then if he is referring to

the original Rama and Krsna, so why not take the original Rama and Krsna?

What is the proof? Simply by his words one can accept? Just like he is takingthe proof, Arjuna. Yes.

Giriraja: "You are the original Personality, the Godhead. You are the only

sanctuary of this manifested cosmic world. You know everything, and You are

all that is knowable. You are above the material modes. O limitless form, this

whole cosmic manifestation is pervaded by You."

Prabhupada: Now, instead of accepting the original, real thing, why people

accept imitation? What is the reason?

Dr. Patel: Because they get the earthly benefit much quicker by worshiping the

lower gods. That is why...

Prabhupada: No, no, not lower gods. Lower god, I am not speaking. Imitation

god. Lower god, demigod, they are lower. That is already... I mean to say

somebody says that "I am the same Krsna, same Rama." Why he is accepted

like that, giving up the original Rama and Krsna? What is the reason?

Dr. Patel: Guru-bhakti.

Prabhupada: What is that guru-bhakti? Guru never says that "I am Rama-Krsna, I am..." That is rascaldom. If any guru says that, then he is not guru.

Dr. Patel: He is rascal guru.

Prabhupada: He is a rascal, not guru. Rascal cannot be guru. You cannot add

this. Then they are the same, daridra-narayana. Narayana cannot be daridra;

daridra cannot be Narayana. Similarly, rascal cannot be guru, and guru is not

rascal. So this is a question. I am inquiring from you. Why people accept this

imitation?

Satsvarupa: They want to be cheated?

Prabhupada: No, they don't want to be cheated, but... Of course, they are

cheated. What is the psychology of accepting imitation false god? I am asking

you. You, doctor sir.

Dr. Patel: I have no answer.


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Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. Why you should imitate?

Dr. Patel: He has got the answer.

Prabhupada: Yes, answer.

Yasomatinandana: Because they are less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: He is more intelligent.

Prabhupada: Yes, he has accepted Krsna. Therefore he is more intelligent

than these rascals. Yes. He has accepted the original. He is not going to

accept any false imitation. Therefore he is intelligent, more intelligent.


Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break]

Giriraja: "You are air, fire, water, and You are the moon. You are the supreme

controller and the grandfather. Thus I offer my respectful obeisances unto You

a thousand times, and again and yet again." [break]

Prabhupada: Here is parampara. Now, if we follow the footsteps of Arjuna, and

we should surrender like that...

Dr. Patel: (next verse, Sanskrit) [break]

Prabhupada: ...studying Bhagavad-gita. If somebody recommends that "We

accept this false," then what kind of business this is? Everyone says, "Oh, we

have studied Bhagavad-gita." (laughs) What you have studied? You are

attached to some false imitation, and how you have studied? So am I right, Mr.

Sar?

Dr. Patel: You are always right.

Prabhupada: No, no. You are not properly answering. (laughter) I know that.

Now...

Dr. Patel: You come into altercation unnecessarily.

Prabhupada: No, no, there must be pariprasna. There must be pariprasna.

Pariprasna is required, but in submissiveness with reasoning, not like


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vagabonds, no. Pariprasna must be there. Now, after reading Bhagavad-gita, if

somebody says that "Here is an imitation God accepted," is that very nice

thing? This should be discussed. Otherwise, if we stick to our original principle

and go on reading Bhagavad-gita three times a day, then what is the use?

What is the use?

Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? (Sanskrit) [break]

Prabhupada: Answer.

Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may

fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning.

Without pariprasna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not,

anyone, recommend any imitation...

Dr. Patel: We accept God what is written in the Bhagavad-gita, all right, in toto.

Prabhupada: Therefore, if we are actually student of Bhagavad-gita, we should

accept it in total instead of deviating from that. That is my request. We are

teaching that. Why one should deviate?

Indian man (2): Krsna is one reality. He may have many forms. He may have

many names. Krsna is one reality. He is correct. But He can have many

names. Eko sad-vipra bahudha vadanti.

Prabhupada: Bahudha vadanti, but bahudha are mentioned. Mentioned. Just

like Visnu-sahasra-nama. That is in the sastra. Therefore, if you take one of

the names, then you have to refer to the sastra, not that you manufacture one

word. That you cannot do.

Indian man (2): The sastras were also made by men, sages.

Prabhupada: No, no, then which one you will accept?

Indian man (2): ...by the realized person.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sastra means...

Indian man (2): But you cannot say that in this age there are no realized

persons.


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Prabhupada: No. It must corroborate.

Indian man (2): Corroborated by whom?

Prabhupada: Corroborated by you. By you. If somebody says that "I amcorrect," then you have to refer to the sastra whether he is correct or wrong.

Just like a medical man. There is characteristic of certain chemicals. That is

mentioned. So when accepting some chemical, the medical man tests in his

laboratory whether it is correct. Not that somebody brings some chemical,

some bunch of lime, and he says, "It is sodium chloride," or "Something,

something." It must be tested. So the testing method is mentioned there, that

the avatara means, "This avatara means his feature of body is this, his work is

like this, he will come on such and such." Just like Kalki avatara. Kalki avatara,

it is mentioned in the sastra... Although He will come after four lakhs of years,

it is stated in the sastra that in Sambal... Sambal, in the house of Visnu-josi,

Kalki-avatara will come.

Dr. Patel: In central provinces.

Prabhupada: Not central provinces. Not mentioned there. Sambal it is.

Dr. Patel: In northern part of India.

Prabhupada: No, that is also not mentioned. Simply Sambal. And Bhagavata

was written five thousand years ago, and there is also mention of Lord

Buddha's name. Kikatesu bhavisyati. Bhavisyati. This word is used, "in future."So this is sastra, that even the incarnation will come four lakhs of years after or

2,500 years after, still, there is mention. His feature, his work -- everything is

there. Why should we accept a false imitation unless it is corroborated by the

sastra? You cannot say everyone is realized soul because he recommends

something. No. We have to corroborate. (aside:) Hare Krsna. This is the defect

of our understanding, that we accept everyone as realized soul. How he is

realized soul? If he is speaking something wrong, how he is realized soul?

Against the sastra. That is not realized soul. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate

kama-karatah, na siddhim avapnoti [Bg. 16.23]. Sastra reference must be

there.

Dr. Patel: In sastra all the signs, symptoms, and characteristics of a siddha are

mentioned. And those characteristics must be there with the siddha.

Prabhupada: Yeah, then we shall accept. Sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya tinete

kariya aikya. Sastra will say, and guru will say, "Yes, it is rightly said." Saintly

person also will accept. Just like Krsna is accepted by Arjuna. Param dhama

pavitram paramam bhavan. He immediately mentioned that "Such sage,


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authorities, accept. The sastra says." Not that because Krsna was His friend,

he accepted blindly. No. That is corroboration. Whether it is mentioned in the

sastras, whether other saintly persons... Just like there are so many avataras,

but we have got our acarya-sampradaya, Ramanuja, Yamunacarya. Whether

they are accepting? Not a third class man accepted, and it is accepted. Theacarya. Acaryavan puruso veda. This is the way of accepting. [break]

Everyone will create his authorities, and unlimited imitation of God will come

into existence, and people will be diverted from the reality. [break] The same

example, that "Here is an imitation medicine, very cheap, as good as the

original one." Even taking it for acceptance that it is as good as the other one,

but why in the presence of the original, I shall accept this imitation? What is

your answer? Accepting this imitation is as good as the other, but if the other

original is present, I can get it, why shall I go to the imitation? [break]

Indian man (2): No, no, that is my understanding. You correct me. According to

me, Vedas are first.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): You also say that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): Vedas only repeat the Vedic rites.

Indian man 3: Veda means Vedanta. Vedanta-sutra comes afterwards. [break]

Prabhupada: Puranas are not Vedanta?

Indian man (2): Puranas, how can it be? (indistinct)

Prabhupada: That is your mistake.

Indian man (3): Well I, I'm not a...

Prabhupada: You see, Madhva... [break] They are supplementary to the

Vedas.

Dr. Patel: These are the agamas and nigamas.

Prabhupada: This is the Mayavadi's version. They do not accept the Puranas.

This is Mayavadi version. But our parampara system, Madhvacarya, he has

accepted Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, as Vedic literature. So we have

to follow the acarya. Acaryavan puruso... Yes. Not only Madhvacarya, all, all


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other acaryas.

Indian man (2): Acarya, rsis, they have got all different...

Dr. Patel: But those people are following Sankaracarya...

Prabhupada: Yes, but Sankaracarya accepted Bhagavad-gita. Then... He

commented, and he accepted Krsna.

Dr. Patel: His commentation is different, you see.

Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. He has accepted Krsna, sa bhagavan svayam

krsnah. He has accepted. You have read, Bhagavad-gita. He has accepted.

Dr. Patel: Yes, I have read it.

Prabhupada: Then why the Sankarites will not accept Krsna as the Supreme

Personality of Godhead? [break] ...destructful question that Vedas and

Puranas...? No. Sankaracarya accepted. If you are real follower of

Sankaracarya, you accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Indian man (2): Sankaracarya also accepted Siva also. Siva and Krsna is non-

different.

Dr. Patel: No, don't say that. (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupada: They worship Visnu. They worship Visnu.

Indian man (2): They worship Visnu but their prime deity is Sankara, and not...

Prabhupada: No, no. They worship five murtis. So they give equal im...

Because Siva is also not ultimate. Sankaracarya's thesis is "Ultimately, the

Absolute Truth is nirakara." Not even Siva. Therefore, either Siva or Visnu or

Ganesa, the same thing, same thing. They are not sticking with the Siva form.

They worship Visnu form, also Ganesa, as it is recommended in that book.

[break] The difference is there. That difference is there. But we have to take

which is correct.

Indian man (2): According to their realizations, you see.

Prabhupada: No, no. We have to take which is correct.

Indian man (2): Who can take... You see, I... [break]


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Prabhupada: ...if you know which acarya is correct.

Indian man (2): Oh which acarya. So if your conscience... [break]

Prabhupada: Acarya means one. Acarya... Just like Vedavyasa. Vedavyasa.(Indian man talking in background) [break] Now, then you must know what is

God. That is God.

Indian man (2): So why talk about acaryas and why discuss these things?

Prabhupada: No, no. Why discuss not? Discussion must be there to

understand. First of all, if God is...

Indian man (2): There should be no uncompromising attitude regarding other's

views. You see we must have our attitude of brotherhood. [break]

Prabhupada: What Vyasadeva says? That is described in the...

Dr. Patel: What Vyasadeva says. Different acaryas' interpretation...

Prabhupada: No, no. There is no interpretation. How can you interpret?

Indian man (2): [break] ...follow acarya. You see... [break]

Prabhupada: Acarya means not foolishly.

Indian man (2): Foolishly? There should be rational outlook. Yes, I agree with

you. There should be rational outlook about all these things, and then, you

see...

Prabhupada: Vyasadeva says, Vyasadeva says that, in his all writing, om

namo bhagavate vasudevaya.

Indian man (2): That is all right.

Prabhupada: Yes. So krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Krsnas tu

bhagavan svayam.

Indian man (2): Sivo 'ham. Sivo 'ham.

Prabhupada: Sivo 'ham is another thing.

Indian man (2): No, that is also there, you see. You can't forget that... [break]


16/28

Prabhupada: ...when require first of all. If you... (Hindi) Interpretation when

required, when you cannot understand. But if you understand, why should you

interpret?

Indian man (2): No, he has interpreted.

Prabhupada: No, no, first of all, let us understand where interpretation is

required.

Dr. Patel: When there is a difficulty in understanding.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. When there is difficulty in understanding. But when

there is no difficulty in understanding, then why there is interpretation?

[break] ...by Krsna in the Eleventh Chapter, where is the difficulty to

understand?

[break] There is no need of interpretation. Now, suppose Krsna says, man-

mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam [Bg. 18.65].

Indian man (2): Then why these acaryas have interpretated Gita?

Prabhupada: No, no, real acarya will not interpret. The one who is false

acarya, he will interpret.

Indian man (2): So Sankaracarya was not a false acarya. He has interpreted

Gita. He has got a big bhasya of Gita. Ramanujacarya has got a big bhasya of

Gita. [break]

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Dr. Patel: This is the real thing, what the Vedas say, that even though, after

studying all and after you think that you are realized, though in keno... [break]

Prabhupada: ...wasting your time.

Dr. Patel: No, we are not wasting our time. Still I may tell you sir, that we are

not wasting our time.

Prabhupada: No, if you read, then why you are wasting time?

Dr. Patel: This is my interpretation. [break]

Prabhupada: No, no. I am not realized. No, no, no. No, no, no. I have

realized... [break] ...should stop discussing Bhagavad-gita because Bhagavad-


17/28

gita begins, evam parampara.

Indian man (2): (shouting unintelligibly)

Prabhupada: No, no. [break] ...as the acarya. And we have to accept.

Dr. Patel: What I mean to say that realized people don't criticize because final

proof nobody knows. [break]

Prabhupada: Sarvarhanam acyutejya. Simply by worshiping Krsna, man-mana

bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], you can worship

everyone. There is no need of separately worshiping the five devatas. There is

no need.

Giriraja: (reads synonyms for Bg. 11.13) "Translation: At that time Arjuna could

see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe

situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands."

Prabhupada: Yes. So, although... Now, what is important? The many, many

thousands universes divided into varieties of opulences, that is important or

Krsna important?

Dr. Patel: Krsna is important.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Dr. Patel: The whole thing was ekamsena sthito jagat.

Prabhupada: That is being explained.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

tatah sa vismayavisto

hrsta-roma dhananjayah

pranamya sirasa devam

krtanjalir abhasata


18/28

He got frightened.

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Then, bewildered and astonished, his

hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering

obeisances to the Supreme Lord."

Dr. Patel: He was frightened, seeing that. Shall I read further, arjuna uvaca?

Prabhupada: Yes. Now, why he became frightened?

Dr. Patel: On seeing such a huge, I mean, unbelievable things perhaps by

ordinary human being. In a one place of Krsna's. (indistinct) Right?

Indian man (2): He realized his insignificance because of Lord Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

arjuna uvaca

pasyami devams tava deva dehe

sarvams tatha bhuta-visesa-sanghan

brahmanam isam kamalasana-stham

rsims ca sarvan uragams ca divyan

Prabhupada: Now, he is beginning from the three deities of creation: Brahma,

Visnu, Mahesvara.

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krsna, I see assembled

together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see

Brahma sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Siva and many sages and

divine serpents."

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir?

Prabhupada: So you are understanding all this? If you have got any question,

you can ask. All right, go on.

Dr. Patel: (reads next verse Bg. 11.16, in Sanskrit)


19/28

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "aneka-many..." (pause)

Prabhupada: "Because one, there is no aneka," that is nonsense. In one,

aneka, that is philosophy.

Dr. Patel: Eko asmin bhavisyami abhutyam. (?)

Prabhupada: Aneka is one. But "Because there is aneka," therefore, "because

there is one, therefore no consideration of the aneka." That is not intelligent.

Aneka in one. That is real philosophy.

Giriraja: "Bahu-arms..."

Prabhupada: Aneka, that is in one. Therefore this aneka is not different from

the one. But this aneka does not mean that one. Read.

Giriraja: (continues synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of the universe..."

Prabhupada: Still, although he saw aneka in Krsna, still, he is seeing Krsna

there. That is real vision.

Giriraja: "O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many

forms-bellies, mouths, eyes-expanded without limit. There is no end, there is

no beginning, and there is no middle to all this."

Prabhupada: A crude example can be given. Just like a man may be director

of this company and trust of that company and so many when he is working.

But his wife is feeling that he is her husband. That's all. She does not see

anything, although he is working in aneka-rupam. This is the, a crude example.

He has his eyes to see, "Here is my beloved husband." That's all. Just like

Yasodamayi. Yasodamayi saw that all the universes within the mouth... She

asked, ordered Krsna, "I want to see whether you have eaten dirt. Open your

mouth." So Krsna opened the mouth and not only dirt, but all the universes...

So she saw, but she did not believe that Krsna can have all these universes.

So she said, "All right, that's all right. Don't do it again." She did not take care

of the universes. Although Krsna is showed him all the universes within the

mouth, she was concerned with Krsna. That's all.

Dr. Patel: (next verse, Bg. 11.17 Sanskrit)

Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "dipta-anala-..."

Prabhupada: The glowings are there; we cannot see even the sun. All the


20/28

glowings are there. It is difficult. Yes. Go on.

Giriraja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: Your form, adorned with various

crowns, clubs and discs, is difficult to see because of it glaring effulgence,

which is fiery and immeasurable like the sun."

Dr. Patel: Do you want to comment or shall I...?

Prabhupada: No, it is all right.

Dr. Patel: (next verse in Sanskrit, 11.18)

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: You are the supreme primal objective;

You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the

oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: This is to be understood. The same thing, the supremacy of

Krsna, is being repeatedly stressed in so many ways, and still, by reading

Bhagavad-gita, they do not accept the supremacy of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (reads next verse in Sanskrit, 11.19)

Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "netram-eyes..."

Prabhupada: Now, one question may be raised, that after reading all the

details of Bhagavad-gita, if somebody said, "There was no Krsna," what kind of

inter...

Dr. Patel: He is a fool.

Prabhupada: (laughs) So see. And these fools and rascals are going on as big

men. You see? What kind of Bhagavad-gita he has read, that he says that

"There was no Krsna, there was no Battlefield of Kuruksetra"? And that is ourchallenge, "Why do you say like that?"

Mr. Sar: Why do they say like that?

Indian man (2): They are ignorant people.


21/28

Dr. Patel: They are suska Vedantists.

Prabhupada: No. They are rascals, simply rascals, not suska Vedantists.

Vedantist is... His father is also not Vedantist. They do not know what is

Vedanta. Simply rascals. That is our propaganda, that why you accept theserascals as leader?

Indian man (2): Krsna is described in the Upanisads. Then how can they say

there is no Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes. Still, they say, "There was no Krsna." That is the most

regrettable incidence, that these people, they do not know what is Bhagavad-

gita, and still, they pose themselves as a knower of Bhagavad-gita. Yes. That

should be protested now. That is our mission. No, you cannot say like that.

Dr. Patel: We are going to read up to the mandir. Because we have not...

Prabhupada: [break] ...study one line, that is sufficient. It does not mean to go

like a storm and do not understand.

Dr. Patel: We don't go like a storm. We go very slowly.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Let us go slow but sure.

Giriraja: (finishes synonyms for 11.19) "Translation: You are the origin without

beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon

are among Your great unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance, You are heating

this entire universe."

Prabhupada: Krsna says that prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. Now that being

exhibited by Krsna. Not only Krsna said, but He exhibited.

Dr. Patel: And now for the real thing. Shall I read, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (reads verse 11.20 in Sanskrit)

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Although You are one, You are

spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great

one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are

perplexed."

Prabhupada: For devotee, that is a terrible form. That is not very pleasing.


22/28

Therefore they do not worship the virat form. They worship Krsna's original,

dvi-bhuja. Dvi-bhuja murlidhara syamasundara. That is the original form.

Dr. Patel: That is what we say.

Prabhupada: Yes, Dvi-bhuja murlidhara syamasundara. Venum kvanantam

aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatamsam asitambudha-sundarangam [Bs.

5.30]. Arca-vigraha. Venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatam...

Barha, this peacock feather. They are described in the Vedic literature, but

these rascals say, "That it is imagination. They have imagined." The

Mayavadis say, "They have imagined a form of God as Krsna, with peacock

feather, with murli." But that's not the fact. The fact is there in the Vedic

literature. So Krsna has got this universal form, but the devotees are not

interested with this universal form. But they know that Krsna has universal

form. Go on.

Dr. Patel: (reads next verse 11.21 in Sanskrit)

Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: All the demigods are surrendering and

entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are

singing the Vedic hymns."

Prabhupada: When the demigods... They have to offer prayers to the Lord,

instead of... How they can be worshiped on the equal level of God? How can

they be worshiped on the...? That is forbidden. Hare Krsna. Yas tu narayanam

deva. Jaya. Hare Krsna. (some people come) Yas tu narayanam devambrahma-rudradi-daivataih, samatvena vikseta sa pasandi bhaved dhruvam

[Cc. Madhya 18.116]. Narayanam devam, the Supreme Personality of God

Narayana, if one makes Him on the equal position with such big, big demigods

like Brahma, Rudra, so immediately he becomes a pasandi. And now they are

comparing with the daridra. Just see.

Dr. Patel: Now again you are going that way. Shall I read on?

Prabhupada: No, no, this is a fact, you must understand. You do not know.

You must know it. You must know it. Narayana cannot be compared with

Brahma, Rudra, and these rascals have compared Him with daridra. Just see,how much rascal they are.

Indian man (3): Illustration.

Prabhupada: Yes. Here all the... Why you are anxious to read? You be

anxious to understand first of all.


23/28

Dr. Patel: I have understood.

Prabhupada: You do not understand. That is... You fight with me. Therefore I

am reading this. Yes. We are speaking on Bhagavad-gita, not your imaginary

words. That is our point. How these rascals compare with, ordinary, poor manwith Narayana?

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupada: That's right. Yes.

Dr. Patel: I say so, but immediately I understood, but we want to understand

more and more. You say it is not possible to understand...

Prabhupada: No, if you immediately understand, then immediately you forget

also.

Dr. Patel: No, I don't forget.

Prabhupada: No, no, immediately understanding means immediately forget.

(laughter)

Dr. Patel: It is not possible to forget. I understand immediately and never

forget. For all it may not be. Shall I read further, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: (reads next verse, 22 in Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: Now he is describing who are offering prayers. All the big, big

demigods, surasangha, they are respectfully offering. And they cannot be

equal. The Mayavadi says, "All the demigods, you chant, chant Hare Krsna or

Kali Krsna or Durga Krsna, this is all the same."

Dr. Patel: Or daridra-narayana.

Prabhupada: Or daridra-narayana, that is the same.

Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "visve -- the Visvadevas..." [break]

Prabhupada: ...clearly described, what is God, what is the distinction between

God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you

can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad-gita. That is another chapter. But if

you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gita," you cannot say like that. That is our


24/28

propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gita, then you cannot say all

this nonsense. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...common features of Krsna are common to all paramparas. It can't

be different from one another.

Prabhupada: No, no. Parampara. He says, "As soon as this parampara was

lost, the Bhagavad-gita was lost." Nastah, it is said, nastah. "Therefore I am

taking you again as parampara." You see? If you do not accept...

Dr. Patel: What you say... I mean... Listen. This is one of the way of seeing

things.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, you see... open, open (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: Krsna is so multifarious and so multiple energies He has got that

only ekasmin...

Prabhupada: No, no, here it is said, in the Fourth... This is Fourth Chapter?

Dr. Patel: No, this is Twelfth Chapter. I am reading the common features of all

the sadhus. Advesta sarva-bhutanam maitrah karuna eva ca, nirmamo

nirahankarah, nirahankarah [Bg. 12.13]. We must have (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: No, that is ahankara, that "I have got my own interpretation."

That is ahankara.

Dr. Patel: But you say your own interpretation also. That is also ahankara, sir.

Prabhupada: No, no. I am taking the interpretation of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: He must be also taking in that way.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of

forbearance for others' views.

Prabhupada: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any

compromise.

Dr. Patel: You feel that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect

somebody else's views.


25/28

Prabhupada: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect.

Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go

beyond, according to the...

Prabhupada: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief.

That is truth.

Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the...

Prabhupada: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad-

gita. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah: [Bg. 7.15] "One

who is a naradhamah, he does not surrender to Krsna." So this is judgement.

Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Krsna, we accept,

naradhamah. That's all. Whatever he may be.

Dr. Patel: Krsna is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are...

Prabhupada: No, no, that is Mayavada.

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna has got name...

Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Krsna's names. That is what we are taught

from our birth.

Prabhupada: Then why you chant Hare Krsna? You can chant any name.

Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Krsna's name. That's all. That is the purest.

Prabhupada: Ah, that is contradictory. You said... Sometimes you say that

Krsna has got many names...

Dr. Patel: If I say, "Christ, Christ, Christ," it is, also goes to Krsna.

Indian man (4): But do you think all the medicines are equal?

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, there are some potent medicines, all are equal. And there

is Krsna and there is Christ and there is Bhagavan and there is Visnu and

there is Rama. The same medicine with multiple names. Okay?

Indian man (4): Well, then it is the same disease.


26/28

Dr. Patel: All the disease, one medicine.

Prabhupada: Then why don't you prescribe a particular...

Dr. Patel: Because this is supernatural. This is not ordinary medicine. This isnot the medicine of earthly things. This is the medicine of super things. That is

why one name, all. What do you want to say in this interpretation? Because we

are not dealing with earth here. We are dealing with spiritual things. And...

[break]

Prabhupada: ...sane body cannot prescribe one medicine for everyone.

Dr. Patel: But that is in this earth. In this maya. But beyond maya, you can

prescribe one medicine for all. That is Krsna's medicine. [break]

Prabhupada: ...says, duskrtino mudhah naradhamah, these words. [break] Na

mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15].

Dr. Patel: Right, but we are prapadyante.

Prabhupada: We are talking only... We are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is.

That's all. That is our business. It may be palatable or not palatable. It doesn't

matter. We have to place as it is. That criterion is there, that... [break]

Dr. Patel: ...whether he had come from the lowest of the low. [break]

Prabhupada: ...realization is this, that anyone who has not surrendered to

Krsna, he must be one of these: duskrtino mudhah naradhamah

mayayapahrta-jnana.

Dr. Patel: How can you say people are...?

Prabhupada: Vedas, Krsna says. We are fool, rascal. We simply repeat

Krsna's words. That's all. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, then you have to accept like

that.

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gita is not the secondary I mean other, literatures. [break]Why not? Have I no right to read?

Prabhupada: You can have right to misinterpret. That's all right. But we are not

going to do that. No.

Dr. Patel: It all depends upon my own intelligence.


27/28

Prabhupada: That's all right. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...dadami yogo 'ham. He gives me that yoga and I read that way.

How can you say that? I have got no power excepting the power given by God.

Prabhupada: When you take intelligence from Krsna...

Dr. Patel: That is what He gives me and I take it.

Prabhupada: And He says that "If you don't surrender Me, then you are

mudha, naradhama." He says that. He says that.

Dr. Patel: No, that is not... I mean, you are too harsh.

Prabhupada: Why harsh? I am quoting Bhagavad-gita. Na mam duskrtino

mudhah prapadyante... [Bg. 7.15].

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gita, no... Final sastras are the Vedas.

Prabhupada: Then don't accept Bhagavad-gita.

Dr. Patel: We are accepting because it is the sarva ga...

Prabhupada: Then don't accept the words. You accept Bhagavad-gita...

Dr. Patel: How can you say, "Don't accept..."

Prabhupada: No, no, here it is clearly said that "Anyone who is not

surrendered to Me, he is a miscreant, rascal, mudha, everything." That is the

test.

Dr. Patel: What do you mean by surrendering? Surrendering to His will. "Are

you surrendered to My will and fight? And, my boy, I have already killed them."

That is what we read in the Eleventh Chapter. In that surrender to His will,

God's will. That is surrender. (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: That is your interpret... Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhaktomad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65].

Dr. Patel: Mam means...

Prabhupada: Oh mam means? Again mam means?

Dr. Patel: ...mam means will, Krsna, who is representing the (indistinct) atma.


28/28

He is outer Krsna. Real Krsna is the guru, not even the murti, the arca-puja.

Prabhupada: That is your interpretation.

Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And ifyou say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on

intelligence, sir.

Prabhupada: What is intelligence? Mudha?

Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and...

Prabhupada: If one is a mudha, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the

credit of intelligence? He is a mudha. One who does not surrender to Krsna,

he is a mudha. Number one. There is no intelligence. One who has not

surrendered to Krsna, he has no intelligence. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay

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