australian crime commission transcripts

7/24/2019 Australian Crime Commission transcripts

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(03/02/2014) (14/16344)

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TRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS

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AUSTRALIAN CRIME COMMISSION

Mr T. Sage, Examiner

Examinations

SYDNEY

Monday 3 February 2014

QUALITY CONTROL CHECKED BY BRAD RAWE 19/02/2014.

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MR RAWE: All stand. This Examination of the Australian Crime

Commission is now in session.

MR SAGE: Take a seat, thank you. Yes Ms Deakin.

5

MS DEAKIN: Thank you Sir. This is an Examination being held

pursuant to Summons number S zero zero sixteen slash one four (0016/14). The

witnesss name is The witness appears without

legal representation and I understand he wishes to make some submissions on

that basis. For the record, I note that the witness was served with the Summons10

on Tuesday the twenty eighth (28th) of January at one ten (1:10) pm and I willtender a Statutory Declaration of David Conceicao. I, the witness telephoned the

ACC at approximately four thirty (4:30) pm on Thursday to advise that he had

contacted a barrister who had said that he was unavailable today and wished to

move it to Tuesday. After some difficulty with the phone number, the witness had15

changed his phones and I managed to contact him later morning Friday the twenty

(20), sorry, Friday the thirty first (31st) of January and spoke to the witness and

said to him that you were minded not to allow the adjournment and that if hisbarrister was not available he ought to get another barrister and I asked the

witness to have his rep legal representative to telephone me. I had no further20

contact with the witness. This morning I met with him outside the Examination

Room and he indicated that he had not been able to get another lawyer in time.

For the record, I perhaps should tender the Summons so we can get started.

MR SAGE: Yes, it will be useful to have the Summons,25

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

MR SAGE: On the record before I hear from Mr

30

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MS DEAKIN: If you could show those to the witness. Mr can

you just have a look at those documents, flip through and just, are you satisfied

that that seems to be the same document that,

MR Yeah.5

MS DEAKIN: Mr Conceicao served on you on Tuesday? You dont

have to read every word but does that look like the same document?

MR Yeah.10

MS DEAKIN: Yes.

MR Yeah.

15

MR SAGE: Is your name on the front page Mr

MR Yeah, it is.

MS DEAKIN: Yes. And the other document that youve just been given,20

you havent seen that before but that a Statutory Declaration from our office

saying that at one ten (1:10) pm he handed you those documents.

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR SAGE: Thank you.

MS DEAKIN: If you could give those back, tender those.30

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MR SAGE: The Summons number sixteen of two thousand and

fourteen (16/2014) addressed to the witness returnable today the third (3rd) of

February at ten (10:00) am together with Annexure A, a copy of the Australian

Crime Commission Special Operation Authorisation and Determination National

Security Impacts from Serious and Organised Crime number two (2) of two5

thousand and thirteen (2013). Annexure B, a document headed Statement of

Rights and Obligations pursuant to Subsection 29A(3) of the Australian Crime

Commission Act 2002. Annexure C Explanatory Notes. Also with the Summons

is a Statutory Declaration which evidences the service of the Summons on the

witness on the twenty eighty of January two thousand and fourteen (28/01/2014)10

at one ten (1:10) pm. Those documents will be Exhibit one (1). Thank you. Mryou wanted to say something to me about your attempts to get a legal

representative?

MR No, I just wanted to know if I could,15

MR SAGE: You need to keep your voice up, I,

MR I just wanted to know if I could have maybe a day or so in

order to, cause Im not really sure, like what to do or whats going on really so, Id20

like if I could someone.

MR SAGE: Who have you spoken to?

MR Ive, my barristers name is Phil Butterfield and he told me25

he would be available for tomorrow.

MR SAGE: Now when Ms Deakin told you that it was possible that I

would not be giving you an adjournment unless you needed to engage another

barrister, what did you do?30

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MR I did, I tried my best but it was by the time I tried to

engage one it was Thursday and no-one would be free on Monday.

MR SAGE: Who did you speak to?

5

MR I spoke to a guy named David in Liverpool and he wasnt

free till Monday and I asked Phil Butterfield if he could send someone else and he

couldnt either.

MR SAGE: He didnt recommend someone?10

MR He couldnt, he said no-one is available at that short

notice, so.

MR SAGE: Well, youve had since last Tuesday,15

MR I know, I did get onto it as soon as possible but it just

didnt work out for me.

MR SAGE: The, tomorrow is not suitable to me and later in the week20

is not suitable and as far as Im concerned youve had enough time to get a

barrister. What is going to happen if the Examination proceeds today is that

youre going to be asked a series of questions before that happens Ill give you an

opportunity to claim self-incrimination and Ill give a direction, so that what you say

in this Examination cannot be used against you in a court. The direction that I25

would give would be subject to two (2) exceptions where your evidence may be

used in a court, that is confiscation proceedings to recover proceeds of crime and

a second (2nd) exception where your evidence here can be used even if I do give

a direction is if you were to give false evidence in your Examination. So when

youre questioned, if you lie, dont tell the truth, its referred to in the Australian30

Crime Commission Act as false evidence. If you give false evidence then thats a

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serious offence and you can be prosecuted for that, so thats the exception where

your evidence could be used in a court. Every other offence it cannot be used

against you. You understand?

MR Yeah.5

MR SAGE: Now are you prepared to be examined today?

MR I, is it,

10

MR SAGE: Pardon?

MR What do you mean by that?

MR SAGE: Well, what my intention is to continue the Examination15

now. And Im asking you, are you prepared to answer questions today?

MR I would like if I could adjourn it but if I have to yeah, ofcourse.

20

MR SAGE: Well, I, in my opinion you had enough time to get a

barrister or solicitor,

MR There wasnt, it was just wasnt,

25

MR SAGE: Or both.

MR Yeah, just, I dont know cause it was a week, if was less

than a week, so.

30

MR SAGE: Well its,

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MR Monday is a busy day for it too.

MR SAGE: Its almost a week. Im sure if you spoke to Mr Butterfield

he could have referred you to someone else.5

MR No, I did ask but he said cause by the time I asked him it

was Thursday, he goes I cant get someone for Monday.

MR SAGE: Mr Im going to continue with the Examination,10

youll be asked questions, okay. You understand?

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Thank you. Anything further you wish to put Ms Deakin15

before I go,

MS DEAKIN: No thank you Sir.

MR SAGE: To my opening remarks. Mr what Im going to do20

now is Im going to tell you some things about the Examination and I want you to

listen carefully to what Ill say to you. The first (1st) thing Ill tell you is that Im an

Examiner appointed under the Australian Crime Commission Act. And you have

been summonsed today to give evidence in relation to the matters that are

mentioned on the Summons. I know it doesnt give you much detail but as youre,25

as the questions are asked of you it will become apparent what the issues are that

we want to question you about today. You may be asked questions concerning

other matters other then those that are mentioned on the Summons but I expect

that most of the questions will relate to the subject matter on the Summons.

Examination will be conducted in private and I direct that the persons whose30

names appear on a sheet in front of me which I will sign and date with todays

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date are the only persons who may be present during your Examination. Before

you give your evidence you are required to either swear an oath or to make an

affirmation. I understand that youve indicated that you will swear an Islamic Oath,

is that correct?

5

MR (Witness nods his head).

MR SAGE: You need to answer.

MR Yes.10

MR SAGE: And you will swear that on the Koran?

MR Yes.

15

MR SAGE: Now thats the Koran as I understand thats wrapped in

front of you. If you wish to hold it, open the cover or do anything else with it thats

a matter for you, you can decide that, whatever you believe you need to do toswear an oath on the Koran. Okay.

20

MR Yeah. So do I,

MR SAGE: Pardon?

MR Do I do it now or,25

MR SAGE: What Im going to do is read the oath to you that Ive

approved and you can tell me if it is okay for you to swear. Its an Islamic Oath, its

in these words, I, then youll say your full name, swear with the sacred Koran in

my hand before Allah that the evidence I shall give in the course of this30

Examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is

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my judge and my maker. And then you can put your hand on or you can put your

head on, hold the Koran whichever you choose to do. Is that okay for you?

MR Yeah.

5

MR SAGE: Now youll have to stand.

MR Yes Sir.

MR SAGE: Can you read English?10

MR Yes.

MR SAGE: Do you want to hold the Koran.

15

MR I swear with the sacred Koran in my hand before Allah

that the evidence I shall give in the course of this Examination shall be the truth,

the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is my judge and my maker.

MR SAGE: Thank you. You can take a seat. And could you tell me20

your full name?

MR

MR SAGE: And is25

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: is ,

30

MR Yeah.

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MR SAGE: and is .

MR Yes.

5

MR SAGE: And where do you live Mr

MR .

MR SAGE: And your occupation?10

MR I dont work.

MR SAGE: So youre on some benefits?

15

MR No.

MR SAGE: No. Youre just, youre not employed?

MR No.20

MR SAGE: Okay. Some further matters I need to mention to you.

The first (1st) is that your evidence today is being recorded electronically in its

entirety using audio and video equipment. Ill also tell you your rights and

obligations under the Australian Crime Commission Act. The Act provides that25

you must answer all questions that I require you to answer and you must produce

all documents or things that I require you to produce. If a document or thing is

required during your Examination and you dont have it with you, then

arrangements can be made for the material to be delivered to the Commission.

Ms Deakin who youve met today is Counsel Assisting she is going to ask you30

most of the questions. And when she asks you a question, shes asking on my

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behalf or for me and you must answer her questions. You must answer the

questions and produce documents or things that are required from you even if

they may tend to incriminate you or render you liable to a penalty. As I said earlier

to you the Australian Crime Commission provides protection for you from self-

incrimination and what Im prepared to do is give a direction that your evidence5

here cannot be used against you for a criminal prosecution for any offence or for

imposing any penalty on you. I mentioned to you that there were two (2)

exceptions where your evidence may be used in a court, in confiscation

proceedings to recover proceeds of crime and if you gave false evidence thats an

offence and if you were prosecuted for that offence then your evidence here may10

be used against you or can be used against you in that prosecution. So do youunderstand?

MR Yeah.

15

MR SAGE: Do you wish me to make a direction giving you that

protection?

MR Yeah, yes please.

20

MR SAGE: Thank you. What I will do now is give the direction and I

give the direction under Subsection 5 of Section 30 of the Australian Crime

Commission Act and I direct that the evidence of this witness is not admissible in

evidence against him in any criminal proceedings or a proceeding to impose a

penalty other than in confiscation proceedings or secondly a proceeding in respect25

of firstly, in the case of an answer, the falsity of the answer, secondly, in the

production of a document, the falsity of any statement contained in the document.

Mr that direction gives you the protection I mentioned to you subject to the

two (2) exceptions. I now need to remind you that you must give truthful evidence

in this Examination you have sworn an oath to give truthful evidence. If you do30

give evidence which is false or misleading in a material particular or if you produce

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a document or thing during your Examination which contains a statement that you

know is untrue and you dont tell me then that is a serious offence. It carries or

attracts a significant fine or a term of imprisonment to a maximum of five (5) years.

So do you understand the importance of telling the truth?

5

MR Yes.

MR SAGE: If you dont tell the truth, you lose the protection that Ive

given you.

10

MR Yes.

MR SAGE: Okay?

MR (Witness nods his head).15

MR SAGE: Now a lot of information and evidence material has been

gathered and some of it relates to you and thats what we want to question youabout today and that is the reason why you need to tell the truth. Okay?

20

MR (Witness nods his head).

MR SAGE: Do you understand?

MR Yes.25

MR SAGE: Yeah. Now youre softly spoken, youll have to keep your

voice up.

MR Yeah.30

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MR SAGE: If I turn the air conditioning off, its going to get too hot in

here and it makes quite a bit of noise, its a bigger room, its a big room, so youll

have to keep your voice up and not only does it have to be recorded, Ms Deakin

has to hear it, I have to hear it and the other people have to hear it, hear what you

say. Okay?5

MR Yes.

MR SAGE: So speak in a loud voice,

10

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Otherwise Ill have to keep reminding you.

MR Yeah.15

MR SAGE: Righto. Ms Deakin, thank you.

MS DEAKIN: Thank you Sir. So, Mr you live at

?20

MR Yes.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Who else lives there?

25

MR My Mum and my Dad and my sister.

MS DEAKIN: And what, your Mum, your Dad and your sister, what are

their names?

30

MR .

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MS DEAKIN: Tell me their full names please?

MR .

5

MS DEAKIN: Spell your mothers surname please?

MR .

MS DEAKIN: And how old is ?10

MR

MS DEAKIN: Do you have any other siblings?

15

MR Yes, my brother.

MS DEAKIN: Your brother, whats his name?

MR20

MS DEAKIN: And where does live?

MR Hes in prison.

25

MS DEAKIN: Now since you were served with the Summons on

Tuesday who have you spoken to about coming here today?

MR Just Phil.

30

MS DEAKIN: Just Phil,

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: The barrister?

5

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, you havent spoken to anybody else?

MR No.10

MS DEAKIN: Did you tell your Mum that you were coming here today?

MR No, she saw the AFP at the front, she knew I was served

with documents,15

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR And like she doesnt know what it is exactly but she knows

like Im, I have to come somewhere.20

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Do you have a mobile phone?

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, whats the phone number?

MR I wouldnt know it by heart.

MS DEAKIN: How long have you had that phone?30

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MR Ive changed my number last week but I never had my

numbers off by heart.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So you got a new, did you get a whole new phone

or new SIM or what?5

MR No, just new, just, on my plans I can just change the

number.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So why did you decide to change your number last10

week?

MR Oh just from annoying people, so.

MS DEAKIN: Right. But its the same handset is it?15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Did you bring that today?

20

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yes.

MR Its in the locker.25

MS DEAKIN: Okay. I would like to seek an order that the contents of

that phone be produced. What that means is Im going to ask the Examiner to

order you to give the phone to us and were going to download it, the contents of

the disk and give the phone back to you.30

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Sir, I seek that order.

MR SAGE: Okay. Mr where is the phone?5

MR Its in the locker.

MR SAGE: And youve got the key?

10

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Okay. No, you keep the key. And you dont know the

number of the SIM card?

15

MR No, I (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Perhaps I can assist, is this the, I rang you on Friday,

MR On,20

MS DEAKIN: It was that phone that I rang you on, yeah?

MR The, I called youse on.

25

MS DEAKIN: You called me,

MR Yeah, the number I called youse on, yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So you first called us on a number last week and30

then that was disconnected,

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And then there was a new number,

5

MR And then I put another number, yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So the new number was

). You dont know the number,

10

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: But Im saying thats the number that we contacted you on

Friday,

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And thats the same number that you still have today,right?

20

MR You can grab my phone (wd).

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR SAGE: Okay. Now,25

MS DEAKIN: So well check that, yeah.

MR SAGE: What Im going to do is require you to produce the phone,

30

MR Yeah.

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MR SAGE: So the contents of the phone, the data on it can be

downloaded. I will leave the bench shortly. My assistant will take you out, you

can bring the phone in, you can identify it to me and then it will be handed to my

assistant and hopefully you will get it back today.5

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Okay?

10

MS DEAKIN: And Ill also ask, is there a password on that phone or alock?

MR Yeah, Ill give it to youse.

15

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Well get, yeah, well ask you to write that

password down.

MR SAGE: You can write the password down when you come back.

20

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Okay. Thank you. Ill take a short adjournment.

MR RAWE: All stand. Well take a short adjournment.25

MR SAGE: Thank you.

MR RAWE: All stand. Examination is now in session.

30

MR SAGE: Mr youve handed the phone to my assistant,

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MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: And you wrote the code on the,

5

MR Yeah.

MR SAGE: Sheet of paper?

MR Yes.10

MR SAGE: Ill make the code the next Exhibit, a handwritten note with

the code to the phone produced by the witness, code seven five two five (7525)

will be Exhibit two (2). Thank you. Ms Deakin.

15

MS DEAKIN: I might ask if the analyst could take that,

MR SAGE: Yes.

MS DEAKIN: That phone out now so the download can commence.20

Alright. Well proceed with the Examination. Now you mentioned that you

changed your number fairly regularly just to get a new SIM but you dont any of

your old numbers?

MR No, I dont know.25

MS DEAKIN: Where, do you write them down somewhere?

MR Pardon?

30

MS DEAKIN: You write them down anywhere?

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MR No, I just, I dont know, I just havent (wds).

MS DEAKIN: How do people know how to contact you?

5

MR I dont know. When I want to talk to someone, Ill call him

really quick.

MS DEAKIN: Alright. You dont want to talk to them,

10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Get a new phone.

MR (Wds).15

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Alright. Is there a landline at your parents home?

MR Yeah.

20

MS DEAKIN: Whats that number?

MR Its in my phone, I dont know either.

MS DEAKIN: Oh okay. So youve got a list of contacts in that phone?25

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. We might look at them later if we have a chance to

download it. Alright. Do you have a computer?30

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MR Yes.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. What a laptop or (wd)?

MR We got a couple but theyve actually recently like they5

dont work anymore.

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR One of them had a fan problem, heating problem, so it just10

stopped working. Another one just wasnt working for a while (wds),

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR We dont really have a computer right now.15

MS DEAKIN: Do you have an email address?

MR Yeah.

20

MS DEAKIN: Whats your email address?

MR mmhm,

MS DEAKIN: mmhm,25

MR

MS DEAKIN:

30

MR .

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MR Ive got a few actually, but I wouldnt like know them off

the top of my head.

MS DEAKIN: Where, with which service provider?

5

MR Outlook and Ive got my iTunes one,

MS DEAKIN: (Wd).

MR Or iCloud one. Pardon? The one I buy apps on my10

iPhone.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

MR Its the same one just at iCloud dot com.15

MS DEAKIN: So mmhm ).

MR Yeah at iCloud, yes.

20

MS DEAKIN: And you have that same thing like an (app)?

MR I just what apps, just see what apps its on my credit card

information.

25

MS DEAKIN: Okay. What about with, what about other service

providers,

MR I dont know, Ive had a few.

30

MS DEAKIN: Outlook, Gmail.

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MR No, Ive had a few over the years, no, Im always (wds)

told me (wds),

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.5

MR So I dont know but, I dont, like Ive had a few over the

years, the only one,

MS DEAKIN: And its always been that, youve always had,10

MR The one Ive got control off,

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

15

MR And do everything is off that one.

MS DEAKIN: How do you mean the one you got control off?

MR Like cause Ive lost the password Ive been using, the20

names and that, so Ive had a couple of these.

MS DEAKIN: Right. Okay. So thats the only, the hotmail one, is that

the only one you use at the moment?

25

MR Yeah, the same one. No, Ive got a couple but I dont

know the email off by heart, so I dont know like might have to get it from my

phone.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. And again those details probably be in your30

phone?

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MR Yeah, it will be in the phone.

MS DEAKIN: Alright. Do you have a Facebook account?

5

MR I do but its on and off and like,

MS DEAKIN: What do you mean?

MR Like I take it off and put it on.10

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR Like, sometimes I dont go onto at all (wds).

15

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Alright. And whats your Facebook profile called?

MR Its, my profile pic?

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, no, what is it, whats, sorry, whats your account20

called?

MR Its

MS DEAKIN:25

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Right. What is your pic, is it something,

30

MR (Wds) whats your profile pic,

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MS DEAKIN: Okay.

MR I didnt explain it, through my mate.

5

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, you and your mate, yeah. Who?

MR Pardon?

MS DEAKIN: Whos your mate?10

MR His name is Ali.

MS DEAKIN: Ali.

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Whats his proper name?

MR Ali (wds).20

MS DEAKIN: How come you chose to put a picture with you two (2) up

on there?

MR I dont know, hes a good mate, a friend, so.25

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Are you, do you use any other kind of social

media?

MR No, not really, I havent used the (wd) for a week but it30

didnt really work out for me.

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MS DEAKIN: Okay. No, nothing else?

MR No, nothing else.

5

MS DEAKIN: No.

MR Just Facebook.

MS DEAKIN: Now you said you dont have a job at the moment,10

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: And youre not on any benefits,

15

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: So how do you get money?

MR My parents usually support me, so.20

MS DEAKIN: Do you have an allowance, how do they pay you, before

how much money do you get from them?

MR Whatever I need I usually just ask them, theyll give me.25

MS DEAKIN: Well where do they get money from?

MR They work.

30

MS DEAKIN: They both have jobs?

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Okay. And approximately how much money do

they give you per week?5

MR Like it matter if I want to do something like over the top or

if I want to go out, theyd give me more money than usual. I usually, like I get

maybe fifty (50) bucks a day.

10

MS DEAKIN: And how do you get that money from them?

MR Cash, yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Cash, yeah. They have that much cash at home usually?15

MR Yeah, usually my Mums got fifty (50) in her wallet or,

MS DEAKIN: But just, your Mum gives you fifty dollars ($50) every day

is that how it works?20

MR Like some days shell no give me but when I ask her get

usually you know, they do tell me to go and get a job but they still give me.

MS DEAKIN: Excuse me. So around about three hundred and fifty25

(350) a week, sometimes more?

MR Yeah, if I want to go out on the weekend, they give me

more.

30

MS DEAKIN: Well, how about last week, how much did you get?

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MR About three (3), four hundred (400) I would say.

MS DEAKIN: Thee (3) or four hundred (400).

5

MR Yeah, I would (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Okay. And what would be the most in any week that

youve got from your parents?

10

MR Like if I want to, if on a weekend, I might get maybe twohundred (200) bucks plus maybe the three hundred (300) of the week or

something, so.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So, some weeks,15

MR Sometimes it matters,

MS DEAKIN: Five hundred (500), some weeks.

20

MR Like if I need, yeah, if I need more, then if I want to buy

something, theyll help me out a lot.

MS DEAKIN: You mentioned you have a credit card as well.

25

MR A debit card.

MS DEAKIN: A debit card.

MR Yeah.30

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MS DEAKIN: Right. So you have a bank account?

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: With which bank?5

MR The NAB.

MS DEAKIN: NAB. Alright. How long have you had that?

10

MR Oh, about seven (7) months,

MS DEAKIN: Alright.

MR Eight (8) months, I think.15

MS DEAKIN: And where did you bank before that?

MR Ive never usually used the bank but I was with St George

before that and I was with Commonwealth but for my St George account there I20

never put money in them, maybe like a hundred (100) bucks here and there. And

then, I dont know just, I never know why I stopped, just with the NAB.

MS DEAKIN: So how does money, excuse me, get into your NAB

account?25

MR Oh my Mum puts sometimes.

MS DEAKIN: Your Mum,

30

MR Yeah.

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MS DEAKIN: Puts money into your account?

MR My Mum tells me to save this and,

5

MS DEAKIN: Alright. So you get, most days you get fifty dollars ($50),

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: From your Mum,10

MR Or my Dad.

MS DEAKIN: And or your Dad, okay. So, on an average week youd

get three hundred and fifty dollars ($350) plus a bit extra if you want to go out on a15

weekend.

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Is it far to say maybe about five hundred dollars ($500)20

cash most weeks?

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Okay. Five hundred (500) cash most weeks and25

how much goes into your bank account most weeks?

MR Oh some, sometimes, oh sometimes my Mum would give

me money just to hold.

30

MS DEAKIN: What do you mean by that?

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MR Yeah. If you need it, if you need anything take this, take

that and,

MS DEAKIN: What gives you cash to hold?5

MR Yeah like to save.

MS DEAKIN: Alright.

10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: But,

MR But Im not sure,15

MS DEAKIN: No, lets just go back a step.

MR Like she gets, she gets, she doesnt let me touch it, like

she, its for me but I cant touch it right away.20

MS DEAKIN: And is that in cash or,

MR Yeah, in cash, I take it to the bank I put it in the bank.

25

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So sometimes your Mum gives you money and

says put that in the bank and dont use it.

MR And sometimes and the rest of the days I just get fifty (50)

a day, get (wds).30

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MS DEAKIN: Alright. And then you said your Mum sometimes puts

money in the account as well?

MR No, I, shell give me the money to put in the account,

thats right.5

MS DEAKIN: She never puts it in directly?

MR No.

10

MS DEAKIN: Youre the only, are you the only one that operates thataccount?

MR Yes, its mine, its in my name.

15

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. And, so any deposits into that account, thats you

putting money in,

MR Yeah.

20

MS DEAKIN: Nobody else puts money in there?

MR No. A couple of times people have put money in.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, who else?25

MR Just my brothers friend put money in.

MS DEAKIN: Why?

30

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MR He would just, we had sold him tyres for a car and he put

money to my account and thats about it.

MS DEAKIN: How much was that?

5

MR Its about a thousand dollars ($1,000), more, maybe

fifteen hundred (1,500).

MS DEAKIN: And how long ago was that?

10

MR Not long, it wouldnt be, theyre slicks, theyre called slicksthere, theyre good tyres, so theyre pretty expensive.

MS DEAKIN: So your brother, you sold tyres,

15

MR My brother had a friend who just got out of prison and hes

transferred the money to my account when he got out cause he bought the tyres.

MS DEAKIN: Where did he buy, who did he buy the tyres from?

20

MR From me.

MS DEAKIN: And where did you get them?

MR My cousin gave them to me for free actually.25

MS DEAKIN: So just get this clear. Your cousin, whats your cousins

name?

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MR the same name as me. He gave me

the tyres for free and when my brothers friend came out of prison which is very

recently, he came and his father actually came and picked them up but,

MS DEAKIN: So your cousin gave you fifteen hundred dollar ($1,500)5

tyres for free,

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Well where did he get them?10

MR No, he got them, (wd), he was getting new tyres so he

gave me his old ones.

MS DEAKIN: Sounds like it and he didnt want anything from you?15

MR No. We got,

MS DEAKIN: Do you owe him a favour?

20

MR Yes a trip with us.

MS DEAKIN: Well, excuse me. Alright. So you got these tyres from

and friend, whats the friend called?

25

MR David.

MS DEAKIN: David,

MR Yeah.30

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MS DEAKIN: David what?

MR I dont know, I just call him David.

MS DEAKIN: David, got out of jail, needed new tyres and gave you5

fifteen hundred bucks (1,500) for that,

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And you gave him your bank account details,10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And he put the money in there,

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And this was how long ago?

MR Not long ago.20

MS DEAKIN: What a couple of weeks,

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: A couple of days, what?

MR Something, no about, more than a couple of weeks, I

dont know around that,

30

MS DEAKIN: This year or last year?

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MR No, this year.

MS DEAKIN: This year. Okay. So sometime in the last four (4) weeks?

5

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Alright. Is there any other time when anyone else

has put money into your account?

10

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: Only that one time?

MR Never.15

MS DEAKIN: How come you only need to put money in rather than give

him your cash?

MR I dont know, thats how it works, I dont know, my brother20

told him to put the money in and go pick them up.

MS DEAKIN: Did he put cash in or did he transfer it?

MR Oh I think my brother was a bit hesitant like just in case25

something went wrong, so he goes put the money in the account and then take,

MS DEAKIN: But did he, was it a transfer or was it cash deposit?

MR Deposit, I dont know, I,30

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MS DEAKIN: You dont know, anyway,

MR (Wds).

MS DEAKIN: Fifteen hundred bucks (1,500) appears in your account.5

MR My bank accounts on my phone.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So is that your money or

10

MR No, its mine. Oh were just brothers everything is ours,together, so.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Alright. Is there any other time that anyone else

has put money in either transfer in or cash in?15

MR No, I dont think so, no.

MS DEAKIN: Any other deposits of money into your account, thats you

putting money in,20

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

25

MR Yes.

MS DEAKIN: Is there any where else that you get money from,

MR My brothers girlfriend, maybe has transferred a couple of30

times but youse have to check it out cause I,

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MS DEAKIN: Okay. Wait a minute. Lets just go through this carefully.

So, you, your brothers girlfriend may have transferred money a couple of times,

MR No, he hasnt said,5

MS DEAKIN: Why do you say that?

MR Cause Ive received money from her but,

10

MS DEAKIN: You remember that, yeah,

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Whats her name?15

MR (

MS DEAKIN: Walker.

20

MR (

MS DEAKIN: ( how do you spell that?

MR I dont know how to spell it.25

MS DEAKIN: And whats her, you dont, what her other name?

MR I dont know.

30

MS DEAKIN: So ( has, you think put money in your account,

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: A couple of times, how much?

5

MR I dont know, no.

MS DEAKIN: Are we talking fifty (50) or five hundred (500)?

MR No, Im talking maybe five hundred (500), something like,10

maybe a thousand (1,000) something like that, go have a check on it, Im notreally sure.

MS DEAKIN: No, but Im asking from your memory,

15

MR Theres been a bit, yeah, no, its maybe five hundred

(500) plus be there.

MS DEAKIN: Well how much plus?

20

MR I dont know, around five (5).

MS DEAKIN: Around five hundred (500)?

MR Yeah, two thousand (2,000) or something.25

MS DEAKIN: All together?

MR Yeah, we, maybe its been a couple of times, Ive got bad

memory, so.30

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MS DEAKIN: Well okay. Then lets just try to just think carefully, okay.

You mentioned ( how many times can you remember that she put money

in?

MR Ill say twice.5

MS DEAKIN: Well is that what you remember?

MR Thats what I remember, yes.

10

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Twice. How,

MR Im not, I just dont want to say just in case that its wrong.

MS DEAKIN: What Im asking you to do is think clearly as you can what15

you can remember, okay, dont make stuff up, dont say oh you can check, I

might, cause we can check but what I want to know is what you can remember

about the money that ( put in.

MR The fact is I dont really how much time shes put in so I20

dont want to give you a number.

MS DEAKIN: Well was it once or twice or more than that?

MR Ill say twice, I think it was twice.25

MS DEAKIN: You think it was twice?

MR Yeah, I dont want to say a number just in case its wrong.

30

MS DEAKIN: Well do you think thats right, was it less,

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MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Less than twice or more than twice?

5

MR Id say twice.

MS DEAKIN: When was that, how long ago?

MR A month, two (2) months ago in, I think, I told you Im not10

the best,

MS DEAKIN: Right. Well two (2) months ago, okay, its not that long

ago,

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: You can remember that and how much each time?

MR Say, I dont know, average maybe a thousand (1,000) Id20

say that.

MS DEAKIN: Altogether?

MR No, maybe each time.25

MS DEAKIN: One thousand (1,000) and then another one thousand

(1,000)?

MR Yeah.30

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MS DEAKIN: Why did you she put two thousand dollars ($2,000)

around about that much into your account?

MR Yeah, I dont know, she just, my brother sometimes wants

his money to be with me sometimes he wants it to be with her.5

MS DEAKIN: So its your brothers money, is it?

MR Yeah, thats my brothers money.

10

MS DEAKIN: Alright. And where does he get money from?

MR Hes got savings before he went to jail he had a bit of

money,

15

MS DEAKIN: So,

MR Well he had it cash, so.

MS DEAKIN: So your brothers got some cash,20

MR Sometimes I tell my brother to tell ( to send me

money if I,

MS DEAKIN: But is ( looking after money while hes in25

jail?

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Alright.30

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MR Sometimes I do, thats the thing, sometimes I do,

sometimes,

MS DEAKIN: No, well lets just go through this thing carefully. Your

brother has some cash stored somewhere and ( has access to that,5

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: And did you ask to give you money?

10

MR Not last, sometimes hell say to ( just put money inmy brothers account,

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, I,

15

MR Cause he might need it (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Alright. Listen Im talking about the two (2) times, youthink it might have been about two (2) times that ( has put money into your

account. Okay. Tell me about those times,20

MR I dont know.

MS DEAKIN: What happened, why is there, why is she doing that?

25

MR My brother will tell her to transfer money to my brothers

account,

MS DEAKIN: Would, did, is that what he told her?

30

MR He might not even not tell me why he will just transfer it in.

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MS DEAKIN: No, but Im asking you what you know, is that what

happened?

MR (Wds) dont touch his money.5

MS DEAKIN: So that lets just a take a step back here. Dont tell me

what he would have done or you think might happen, what do you know, what

happened, why did ( put money into your account?

10

MR Because my brother told her to.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Did you speak to your brother about that?

MR No, he just told me dont touch the money that goes into15

your account.

MS DEAKIN: How do you know which is money that you can touch andwhich isnt?

20

MR Cause I didnt know when it comes in, he tells me theres

a thousand bucks (1,000),

MS DEAKIN: Well so did you,

25

MR Theres a thousand bucks (1,000) come off from (

dont touch it.

MS DEAKIN: Okay.

30

MR So,

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MS DEAKIN: Thats what happened, is it, you had that conversation

with your brother?

MR No, this is Im giving you like an example if,5

MS DEAKIN: No, I want to know what actually happened.

MR No, I cant remember, it was awhile ago, so.

10

MS DEAKIN: No, what actually happened with the money that (put into the account, did you have a conversation with your brother,

MR Oh he would have told me about that.

15

MS DEAKIN: But did he, dont tell me what he would have done.

MR Cause I cant remember, I dont want to make a clearstatement.

20

MS DEAKIN: Why do you say he would have done, he would have said

that?

MR Cause thats what hes does, what he needs to do.

25

MS DEAKIN: How often does he do that?

MR Not much, maybe three (3), four (4).

MS DEAKIN: Well how has he done that since youve got back from30

overseas the last time?

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MR Oh I dont know. I dont know, but I told you twice (wds).

MS DEAKIN: How long has he been in jail?

5

MR Three (3) years.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So in the last four (4), five (5) months however

long is it since you got back, how often has he done that, how often has he got

money put in your account?10

MR Well I thought, maybe two (2) times I think about that.

MS DEAKIN: About two (2) times, alright. How much money altogether

are we talking about here?15

MR I dont know maybe two (2), three thousand (3,000), I

dont know, I cant.

MS DEAKIN: Well it was five hundred (500) and then it was a thousand20

(1,000) then it was two (2) and then it was three (3),

MR Cause I told you, I got bad, I told you I cant,

MS DEAKIN: You just dont know.25

MR I cant really give it to you properly.

MS DEAKIN: And is that and shes put in cash in there, has she?

30

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MR I dont know, shes transferring, I dont really check my

statements I just see the money in my account.

MS DEAKIN: Alright. So you see money coming in and you think I

better not touch that cause5

MR My brother (wds) Im not allowed to touch it, dont touch it.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Where else has money come from that go into

your account?10

MR No, my brother, my Mum and me, thats it.

MS DEAKIN: Thats it? And this David, the person with the tyres?

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Thats it?

MR Yeah.20

MS DEAKIN: No-one else?

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: Youre absolutely clear about that?

MR Hundred percent (100%).

MS DEAKIN: Alright. Well, where and are those your only sources of30

money altogether?

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MR Yeah, thats it.

MS DEAKIN: Anyone else give you cash?

5

MR No, like, just, in my head, my brother, his Miss, my

brother and his Missus and my Mum like she does what she has to do something

in my account, you know.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. Anyone else give you cash?10

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: Not at all?

15

MR No, not at all.

MS DEAKIN: Do you have any other source of income?

MR No, no other sources.20

MS DEAKIN: Do you do any work,

MR No.

25

MS DEAKIN: Legal or illegal, remember you have to answer the

question and it cant be used again you,

MR No, I dont do nothing.

30

MS DEAKIN: Are you getting money from anywhere else?

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MR No.

MS DEAKIN: So your brother, again, Im just thinking about the times

since you got back, right, your recollection is that your brother has told ( to5

put money into your account and told you not to touch it, so its still there now,

right?

MR Yeah.

10

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

MR I think I got about two grand (2,000) there.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So theres two grand (2,000) in your account, how15

much is in your account altogether now?

MR Two grand (2,000).

MS DEAKIN: Thats all your brothers money, is it?20

MR Yeah most of it. Ive got I think six hundred (600) for me.

MS DEAKIN: Youve got six hundred (600) from where?

25

MR For me in there,

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

MR Like for me and my Mum and the rest, the two grand30

(2,000) is for my brother.

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MS DEAKIN: So there should be about two thousand six hundred

(2,600) in there,

MR Yeah.5

MS DEAKIN: And two thousand (2,000) is your brothers?

MR Yeah.

10

MS DEAKIN: Now is that the only money your brother has ever put inthere or has asked ( to put in?

MR I think so, yeah, I told you what I,

15

MS DEAKIN: Well hang on, you told me that before hes been in jail for

three (3) years and this has been a regular pattern, right?

MR Oh no, this bank account has only been around for six (6)

months, I think, so,20

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So, if,

MR Six (6) or seven (7) Im not sure like the time.

25

MS DEAKIN: Alright. Before you had this bank account, did your

brother send,

MR No.

30

MS DEAKIN: Money your way?

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MR No.

MS DEAKIN: So thats only happened in the last six (6) months?

5

MR Yeah, I told you the other accounts I had they were dead.

MS DEAKIN: Alright. Is it true that your brother has only ever given you

money or put money in your account in the last six (6) months,

10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Never done it before that?

MR No.15

MS DEAKIN: Why did he start doing that six (6) months ago?

MR Why not?

20

MS DEAKIN: Well whats different, why didnt he do it two (2) years ago,

why does he do it now?

MR I dont know, hes, its up to him.

25

MS DEAKIN: What have you spoken to him about?

MR My brother, I dont know, (wds) hes like my, like hes

older than me, hes got control of everything, you know, so, I dont like sometimes

if he just does things and I dont really answer.30

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MS DEAKIN: Well whats changed, why would he put money in your

account now and tell you not to touch it?

MR Well why not, maybe I wanted a weekend away, like I

dont know.5

MS DEAKIN: But youre just, no, youre telling me its his money and

youre not allowed to touch it.

MR Yeah, thats an instance, maybe it is to, but money from10

him.

MS DEAKIN: Dont tell me maybe.

MR Maybe he had a fight with (15

MS DEAKIN: No Mr,

MR He doesnt want her to have that money.

20

MS DEAKIN: Mr listen to me, dont make up stories,

MR Im not making up stories.

MS DEAKIN: Dont tell me maybe,25

MR I just told you I got a bad,

MS DEAKIN: Dont tell me what you think might have happened,

30

MR I got a bad recollection of everything.

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MS DEAKIN: No, listen to me, dont interrupt me, tell me, think clearly

and tell me what you remember,

MR I told you,5

MS DEAKIN: If you dont remember,

MR I told you what I remember. Can I tell you that I dont

remember cause I thought I,10

MS DEAKIN: If you dont remember,

MR Youre making me make,

15

MS DEAKIN: Just say that you dont remember.

MR Youre making me make mistakes cause I dontremember, so Im trying to,

20

MS DEAKIN: You need to listen to my questions. Okay. You need to

listen to my questions. So, when did your brother first give you money?

MR I cant remember, I told you, I cant, thats why youre

making me make mistakes.25

MS DEAKIN: You had this bank account for six (6) months, before that

has your brother done, has your brother put money into your account,

MR No.30

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MS DEAKIN: In a different account?

MR No, he hasnt, no.

MS DEAKIN: He hasnt?5

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: So only just the last six (6) months he started doing this?

10

MR Yeah, a couple of times, yeah,

MS DEAKIN: Yeah.

MR So nothing regular.15

MS DEAKIN: So a couple of times he asked ( to put money in

and you reckon thats about two thousand dollars ($2,000) or so and that money isstill there?

20

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So, has ever given you money that you are

allowed to spend?

25

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: Never?

MR No. Hes got no, he doesnt have much, hes got to tell30

them to (wds).

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MS DEAKIN: Okay. So, just to be absolutely clear here, hes not, he

has never given you money that you can then spend yourself?

MR No. Usually its for my Mum, him and my Mum do5

everything they got there (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Right. And hes given you, theres two thousand dollars

($2,000) thats gone into your account that youre not allowed to spend,

10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah and theres no other money?

MR Theres six hundred dollars ($600) in the account.15

MS DEAKIN: Where does the six hundred (600) come from?

MR Its just, I dont know, just stay, its gets together for my

Mum, for me. Sometimes I dont spend my money sometimes, I put it together,20

wait, I sell stuff, like I sell my Play Station, my games and that.

MS DEAKIN: Why does want you to look after two thousand

dollars ($2,000) for him?

25

MR I dont know.

MS DEAKIN: Did he tell you?

MR I think he had a fight with his Missus, so he wanted it out30

of her grasp, yeah.

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MS DEAKIN: So he got her, he had a fight with her and he got her to

put money into your account?

MR Yeah.5

MS DEAKIN: And whats going to happen to it?

MR I dont know.

10

MS DEAKIN: Well has he said?

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: How long has he has to keep it?15

MR No, he hasnt said nothing.

MS DEAKIN: Why didnt he just get her to give you the cash?

20

MR I dont know, cause I dont see, Ive never seen (

in person only in visits cause she visits her stepdad whos in jail and they sort of

met like that. Like they knew each other on the outside but her stepdad and just

my brother and she visits him and they saw each, no they just, my brother is

secretive, hes very secretive.25

MS DEAKIN: (Wds). Now, you said that there is now about two

thousand six hundred dollars (2,600) in the account,

MR Yeah.30

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MS DEAKIN: Yeah, how long has it been at that balance?

MR (Wds) I told you (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Okay. When did the money go in?5

MR I cant, maybe last week.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. And as of the end of last year, at the end of last

year, how much money was in there?10

MR I dont know, I told you it goes up and down, sometimes I

have money, sometimes I (wds).

MS DEAKIN: Well look, the Examiner has already told you that weve15

been doing a whole lot of investigations,

MR I know.

MS DEAKIN: We have all sorts of information but I know that there was20

sixty five cents (65c) in your account at the end of the year, on the twenty fourth

(24th) of December there was sixty five cents (65c) in there, thats a nothing,

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: Nothing at all. So if theres two thousand six hundred

(2,600) in there now, it must have gone in this year, yeah.

MR Whats the money,

30

MS DEAKIN: Is that right?

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MR Whats the, yeah, whats the,

MS DEAKIN: But there was nothing in your account at the end of last

year, so it wasnt money that you cause obviously didnt give5

you any money last year because you wouldnt have spent it.

MR I never said last year.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. So the two thousand dollars ($2,000) or so that10

you got from (

MR I never seen (wds),

MS DEAKIN: And your mother, that money must have been this year,15

right?

MR Yeah, I told you I dont know, you told me the timeframe, Itold you I cant remember so youre making me fall into traps, I cant remember.

20

MS DEAKIN: Lets go through the bank account statements.

MR SAGE: Ive got the bank accounts.

MS DEAKIN: You have that,25

MR SAGE: Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Thank you Sir. Now lets go through this carefully and see

what we can work out. So, first (1st) page, lets just put this on the record, this is a30

copy of statements for account number BSB

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, account number

in the name of the of

. Thats you?

MR Yeah.5

MS DEAKIN: Yeah, thats your account? Okay. And you said you

opened an account maybe six (6) months ago, this is one thats opened on the

nineteenth (19th) of July, so this is the account weve been talking about?

10

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Okay. So the first (1st) thing that happens apart

from a couple of very small deposits. On the nineteenth (19th) of August theres

three hundred dollars ($300) deposit, do you see the credit column there? Yeah,15

so that credit column, three hundred dollars ($300) cash deposit, the next day a

hundred dollars ($100) cash deposit, two hundred dollars ($200) cash deposit.

Okay. Do you remember where that money comes from?

MR I did here and there but,20

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. So you talked about you get money from your

Mum and you put it in the bank account,

MR Yeah.25

MS DEAKIN: Yes, so thats that money?

MR Yeah.

30

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MS DEAKIN: Right. Okay. Keep moving. Turn to the next page, now

on the twenty second (22nd) of August you see how it shows Eftpos and it says

you bought something at McDonalds in Bankstown,

MR Yeah.5

MS DEAKIN: And then you paid for Ibis, the accommodation in Coffs

Harbour and then youre back in Yagoona. Why did you go to Coffs Harbour for

one (1) day?

10

MR I dont know.

MS DEAKIN: Did you to go Coffs Harbour for one day,

MR Im trying to think.15

MS DEAKIN: On the twenty second (22nd) of August?

MR I went to Ibis, Casula.

20

MS DEAKIN: Oh okay. Oh well, maybe thats maybe so thats maybe

they put it through a different accounts, it went to Ibis in Casula?

MR Yeah.

25

MS DEAKIN: Yeah. Why did you go there, do you remember?

MR Just me and my girlfriend.

MS DEAKIN: Oh okay. Alright. That may explain that. Alright. The30

next thing that happens is on the twenty sixth (26th) of August theres four hundred

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dollars ($400) cash deposit and then the very same day you take, theres two

hundred and seventy dollars ($270) in cash comes out of the ATM. Why did you

put four hundred dollars ($400) cash in and then you take two hundred and

seventy (270) out on the same day?

5

MR Cause I tried to save and it doesnt work so I just spend

money.

MS DEAKIN: So your Mums given you four hundred dollars ($400) and

said put that in the account, dont spend it,10

MR And then I (wds).

MS DEAKIN: And then two (2) hours later youre spending it? Right.

15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Okay. And same thing happens on the twenty eighth(28th) of August, you put two hundred (200) in and then you take fifty (50) straight

out from the ATM. Yeah, thats the pattern thats familiar, thats your money, your20

Mums money going in and then you taking it out in cash. Okay. Same happens

on the fourth (4th) of September, six hundred dollars ($600) goes in and then two

hundred and fifty (250) goes in, hundred (100) goes, whats, can you see the fifth

(5th) of September,

25

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Theres a hundred dollars ($100) credit and then theres

(Ragah) next to it, can you see that loan?

30

MR Yeah.

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MS DEAKIN: Well whose (Ragah), who or what is (Ragah)?

MR I dont know, I dont know, honestly dont know.

5

MS DEAKIN: You dont know why theres a hundred dollars ($100)

credit for (Ragah)?

MR No. I cant remember.

10

MS DEAKIN: (Wds).

MR Why, what is it?

MS DEAKIN: Im asking you. Okay. Well keep going. Turning to the15

next page, on page, this is page three (3), yeah, theres tran, theres the date, the

ninth (9th), tenth (10th), eleventh (11th), thirteenth (13th) and sixteenth (16th) of

September, theres three hundred dollars ($300) goes into the account on thesixteenth (16th) of September and the reference is (Batalla). Do you know what

that is?20

MR No.

MS DEAKIN: You were overseas at that time, do you know why three

hundred dollars ($300) went into your account?25

MR How would I know? Im very (wds), Im very bad.

(Batalla).

MS DEAKIN: That doesnt mean anything to you?30

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MR Im trying to think but, its been a while, so I dont know.

MS DEAKIN: If you turn to the next page, the very next day the

seventeenth (17th) of September, hundred dollars ($100) credit (Batalla), hundred

dollars ($100) goes into your account, (Batalla). What does that mean? Do you5

know where money comes from? Cause you said that the that only money that

goes into you account is your Mum and this guy with tyres and a couple of times

from

MR Yeah, that could be from my brother too. (Wds).10

MS DEAKIN: Well is it or isnt it?

MR It could be from people in prison thats family paying.

15

MS DEAKIN: Why would they be paying you?

MR I dont know, my brother does his own thing.

MS DEAKIN: Well is that your money there or not?20

MR Like what Im saying to you is my brother does his own

things sometimes and sometimes like they could be people from prison family

paying.

25

MS DEAKIN: But how would you know if thats money youre allowed to

spend or not?

MR I dont know, thats a different, thats why I cant even

recall it.30

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MS DEAKIN: Why would people in prison, their family put money into

your account?

MR From my brother, to pay my brother.

5

MS DEAKIN: Why would they be paying your brother?

MR Maybe he sold them buy-ups, maybe he sold them this

and that, I dont know they get by in there anyway.

10

MS DEAKIN: So how many people have your bank account number?

MR I wouldnt know.

MS DEAKIN: Does your brother tell them your bank account,15

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Number to put money in?

20

MR To put, yeah, to put in

MS DEAKIN: Well why didnt you mention this before?

MR I told you that, ( puts money in (wds).25

MS DEAKIN: Well is this ( or this is somebody else in the family?

MR This is (wds) I cant give you a clear answer cause then

Id be lying, its a while back, I cant really, I dont know.30

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MS DEAKIN: Twentieth (20th) of September, four thousand five hundred

dollars ($4,500) goes into your bank account, whats that?

MR That would be from my Mum.

5

MS DEAKIN: Four thousand five hundred (4,500)?

MR Yeah.

MS DEAKIN: Thats a lot more than any other deposit.10

MR I dont know, she would have put it in.

MS DEAKIN: Why, when you say that would be from your Mum, what

do you mean it would be,15

MR Oh yes.

MS DEAKIN: Is it or isnt it?

20

MR Its from my Mum, no-one else is going to put money like

that except for my Mum.

MS DEAKIN: Do you know do you that is definitely four thousand five

hundred (4,500) from your Mum?25

MR Im not going to say definitely but Im going to say most

likely.

MS DEAKIN: Well thats a large amount of money, its larger than all of30

the other amounts thats been well under a thousand (1,000),

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MR I told you my brother and Mum,

MS DEAKIN: This is quite different then any other.

5

MR My brother and my Mum have their own agreement, they

do their own thing.

MS DEAKIN: Well whats that got to do with your bank account,

10

MR Cause,

MS DEAKIN: Your brother and your Mums agreement?

MR Cause I, my brother doesnt have a bank account, so this15

is our, its mine but we use it together.

MS DEAKIN: Well is it yours or is it your brothers?

MR Its mine, in my name.20

MS DEAKIN: Look four thousand five hundred (4,500) goes in there on

the twentieth (20th) of September,

MR (Wds) I know that,25

MS DEAKIN: And the twenty third (23rd) of September you go on a

shopping spree, youre spending money, youre just spending all of that money, is

it your money or is it your brothers?

30

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MR I dont know, Im telling you its probably its my Mum, him

and my Mum theyre are in agreement.

MS DEAKIN: Youre the one spending the money.

5

MR (Wds) even if it was my money, whats the problem like I

would have told you from the start.

MS DEAKIN: Dont tell me what you think what the answer might be or

wonder what the problem is,10

MR I would have told you,

MS DEAKIN: Im trying to understand,

15

MR I would have you told from the start, I wish, I would have

told you from the start its my money.

MS DEAKIN: Four thousand five hundred (4,500) is that your money or

is it your brothers?20

MR Its my Mums money.

MS DEAKIN: Its your mothe

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