chandrashekbharati

8/20/2019 ChandrashekBharati

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Dialogues with The Guru

Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal (1892-1954),

34th Pnti!! (1912-1954) ! the Sri Sharada Peetam, Sringeri"

(Cm#iled $% Sri &" 'rishnaswam% %er)

Sr*e+ htt#+srisharada"*m.."htm

These passages from the book "Dia-

logues with The Guru" provide an-

swers to many nagging questions that

trouble the individual as well as the

society. While answering generic ques-

tions !ri carya induces one to re-

flect over the true meaning of !ana-

tama Dharma and application of its

principles to modern life.

These passages are translation of

talks with #is #oliness !ri $handra-

sekhara %harati !wamigal compiled

by !ri &. 'rishnaswamy (yer .

Table of Contents.d/aita""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""10he Sandh%a rshi#""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""150re e/tin"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""2ame and !rm"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""33ate and ree ill""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""460he 7tilit% ! d""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""51

0he Means ! a##iness""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""":2;


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Dialogues with The Guru -- Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamigal

then which ( don)t find it possible to solve by myself or with

the help of the scholars whom ( have met. ( shall be very

grateful if your #oliness will be pleased to initiate me intothe dvaita-*edanta yourself.

His Holiness: shall *ertainl% $e /er% glad t d s, i!

*an d it" Bt it is >ite $e%nd m% *m#eten*e"

Devotee: ( am sure +our #oliness is not serious. (f +our

#oliness professes incompetence to teach dvaita ( do not

see how anybody else in the world can claim to teach it.

HH: hat *an we d@ t is the natre ! the s$Ae*t" 0he

7#anishad itsel! #r*laims e wh *laims t knw, knws

nt" 0he dvaita is nt smething t $e learnt there!re it

*annt $e a thing t $e taght" t is essentiall% smething t

$e realised $% nesel!" *annt there!re ndertake t tea*h

%" !, hwe/er, in the *rse ! %r ?edanti* stdies %

want an% #assage t $e eD#lained either in a teDt r in a

*mmentar%, shall *ertainl% tr% m% $est t eD#lain it" *an

ths hel# % nl% t nderstand the signi!i*an*e ! wrds r

! senten*es whi*h are *m#sed ! wrds, r ! ideas whi*h

are *n/e%ed $% senten*es" Bt it is im#ssi$le t *n/e% t

% a *rre*t idea ! what dvaita is, !r it is neither a mat-

ter !r wrds nr is it a mental *n*e#t" t is, n the ther

hand, #re eD#erien*e whi*h trans*ends all these" S##se

d nt knw what sweetness is" Can % des*ri$e sweetnessin wrds s!!i*ientl% eD#ressi/e t *n/e% an idea ! sweet-

ness t me@

D: That is certainly impossible.

HH: Sweetness *an $e knwn nl% when #t sme sweet

thing n m% tnge" t is im#ssi$le ! $eing eD#lained in

wrds r ! $eing learnt !rm anther #ersn" t has t $e

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realised in dire*t eD#erien*e" ! a thing s !amiliar t s as

sweetness trans*ends all eD#ressin, hw m*h mre tran-

s*endental will $e the trth ! dvaita, whi*h is the s#remesweetness" am reminded in this *nne*tin ! a gentleman

wh *ame here smetime $a*k" e was a %rahmana $t his

training had all $een n the mdern lines s that he was a

%rahmana nl% in name and thanks t *ir*mstan*es, he had

attained a #rminent #sitin in #$li* li!e" t was his !irst

/isit t this #la*e" e seemed t ha/e $een /er% m*h en-

*hanted with the *r%stal *lear water ! the ri/er, the natral

s*ener% all arnd, the #ea*e!l atms#here and therthings" hen he *ame t me, he eD#ressed the delight he eD-

#erien*ed and added h%, it is brahmananda). e e/identl%

meant, ! *rse, that it was like brahmananda the $liss !

%rahman, the .$slte" t str*k me that, in s#ite ! his

training and ha$its s di/r*ed !rm r time-hnred reli-

gin, this idea that brahmananda was the highest ! all anan-

das and that, there!re, that alne *ld $e sed as a similet eD#ress a delight whi*h de!ies ade>ate eD#ressin was

still n-eradi*ated !rm his mind" mentin this in*ident t

shw that, e/en in *mmn #arlan*e when we !ind wrds

wanting t eD#ress an intense senss #leasre, we resrt

t brahmananda alne as an ade>ate r eD#ressi/e simile"

0hat means that it is ni/ersall% re*gnised that the ananda

! %rahman whi*h is the same as dvaita is $e%nd all wrds"

.sk me nt there!re t tea*h % dvaita, !r it is an im-#ssi$ilit%" Bt % ma% ask me t nra/el !r % sme

grammati*al *nstr*tin r t sl/e sme ! %r d$ts in

the lgi* ! the s%stem" 0hat is the $est that *an d !r %"

D: ( now quite understand the standpoint of +our #oli-

ness. %ut ( do not think ( shall be ,ustified in troubling +our

#oliness to solve doubts in grammar synta or logic.

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HH: t des nt matter in the least" ! the sl/ing ! e/en

s*h a d$t takes s nearer t a realisatin ! dvaita, it is

wrth ding"

D: %ut ( have not brought any book with me now and ( am

unable to state from memory any of the passages which (

found difficult to understand.

HH: e shall reser/e it then !r sme ther **asin" e

ma% nw *nsider sme t#i* !r whi*h n re!eren*e t

$ks is needed"

D: s +our #oliness pleases.

HH: irst, we shall tr% t nderstand what is meant $% d-

vaita" w ha/e % nderstd it@

D: ( have heard it eplained thus dvi means two dvita

means the state of being two that is two-ness. Dvaitam is

the same as dvita" dvaita is therefore that thing in whichthere is no two-ness or duality.

HH: ite S" hat d % *all that smething in whi*h

there is n tw-ness@

D: (t is %rahman.

HH: Per!e*tl% right" .nd $% %rahman - % mean that $asi*

#rin*i#le ! realit% where!rm the ni/erse deri/es its eDist-en*e, wheren it rests and wherein it disa##ears"

D: +es"

HH: ;et s ignre the wrd %rahman and its !ll signi!i*-

an*e !r a mment" = gi/e the name ! dvaita t the #rin-

*i#le whi*h is res#nsi$le !r the *reatin, maintenan*e and

dissltin ! the ni/erse@

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D: /uite so.

HH: = mean then that there is n tw-ness in the #rin-

*i#le@

D: +es"

HH: n ther wrds, % mean that that #rin*i#le is ne

and ne nl%@

D: $ertainly.

HH: 0 eD#lain it again, % mean that there are n tw

s*h #rin*i#les@

D: +es.

HH: .nd % *laim that r s%stem ! thght is rightl%

*alled dvaita as it enn*iates the d*trine ! the nn-eDist-

en*e ! tw s*h #rin*i#les@

D: /uite so.

HH: 0hat is all right" w we shall *nsider !r a mment

the ther s%stems ! thght, $e it Christianit% r slam, *is-

ishtdvaita or dvaita Tarka or +oga $e it an% s%stem !

thght whi*h admits the eDisten*e ! a #rin*i#le whi*h is

res#nsi$le !r the *reatin, the sstenan*e and the dissl-

tin ! the ni/erse" an% ! these s%stems e/er #r*laimthat there are tw s*h #rin*i#les r d the% all agree in #r-

*laiming that there is and *an $e nl% ne s*h #rin*i#le@

D: 0o system postulates any plurality in God. There may

be and is plurality among the devils who are as much cre-

ated beings as ourselves but certainly none in the !upreme

Godhead. #e is ever 1ne.

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HH: ite s" s%stem there!re enn*iates an% dalit%

s !ar as d is *n*erned@

D: (t is so.

HH: 0hen, e/er% s%stem, inasm*h as it negati/es the eD-

isten*e ! two ds is entitled t gi/e the name ! dvaita t

the d enn*iated $% it and t a##r#riate the same name

!r itsel! als" ! s, what is the Asti!i*atin !r %r mn-

#lising the name dvaita s#e*iall% t %r d and t %r

#arti*lar s%stem ! thght@

D: ( pray that +our #oliness may be pleased to eplain it.

HH: 0here is anther di!!i*lt%" = knw that in the d-

vaita #hils#h% a #ra*ti*al saguna %rahman and a tran-

s*endent nirguna %rahman are $th enn*iated"

D: +es"

HH: ne ! the ther s%stems a**e#ts similar distin*tin

and the% de*line t *n*ei/e ! %rahman as tw!ld@

D: +es"

HH: t wld seem there!re that all ther s%stems, eD-

*e#t %r wn, enn*iate a single s#reme #rin*i#le and that

in %r s%stem nl% there is an enn*iatin ! tw s#reme

#rin*i#les, the saguna and the nirguna" Stri*tl% s#eaking,there!re, it wld seem that all s%stems are e>all% entitled

t *all themsel/es dvaita and that, i! an% s%stem *an $e dis-

>ali!ied !rm sing that name $% reasn ! enn*iating #lr-

alit% in d, it is *ertainl% %r s%stem nl% that *an $e s

dis>ali!ied" 0he dvaita s%stem is ths nt nl% nt eD*ls-

i/el% entitled t *all itsel! dvaita, $t is nt entitled at all

t *all itsel! $% that name" w d % then *all dvaita@

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D: The answer for this also must come only from +our

#oliness.

HH: t ne*essaril%, !r % %rsel! *an gi/e the answer

>ite easil%"

D: #ow2

HH: enerall% s#eaking, a name gets atta*hed t a #arti*-

lar thing nl% i! sme attri$te whi*h is dented $% that

name ha##ens t $e the eD*lsi/e attri$te ! that thing" !

an attri$te is *mmn $etween a #arti*lar thing and se/-eral thers, that #arti*lar thing *annt $e *alled $% the

name whi*h *nntes that attri$te"

D: $ertainly "

HH: . name is there!re gi/en t a #arti*lar thing when

that thing has an eD*lsi/e *hara*teristi* ! its wn whi*h is

ass*iated with that name"

D: /uite so.

HH: w, what is the eD*lsi/e *hara*teristi* ! r s%s-

tem ! dvaita #hils#h% whi*h is a$sent in all ther s%s-

tems@

D: ( suppose the doctrine of 3aya.

HH: ite s and its im#li*atins"

D: What are the implications2

HH: Be!re we g t that >estin, tell me what d %

nderstand $% 3aya@

D: ( have heard it eplained as the differentiating prin-

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ciple which is responsible for diversity in the universe.

HH: n the ni/erse ! matter r in the ni/erse ! sls@

D: (n both. 3aya is the prime cause of all diversity in the

ob,ective as well as the sub,ective universe.

HH: 0hen, $t !r 3aya, there *an $e n di/ersit% at all@

D: ( have heard it so said.

HH: Matter, inert as it is, will ha/e n inde#endent eDist-

en*e ! its wn, $t !r 3aya@

D: +es"

HH: Similarl%, s##se, we, indi/idals as we are nw,

will ha/e n inde#endent eDisten*e ! r wn, $t !r 3aya@

D: (t would seem so.

HH: ! we d nt enn*iate an% s*h di!!erentiating #rin-

*i#le as 3aya, matter-inert matter-will #ersist in ha/ing an

eDisten*e ! its wn *nsistentl% with d the S#reme Prin-

*i#le, Ast as the md !rm whi*h a #t is made *laims *n-

sistent eDisten*e with the #tter wh ses it !r making the

#t@

D: (t is so. (n some other systems they assign to God only

the status of the potter and enunciate a primary substance

be it pradhana or the atoms or any other thing as the ma-

terial out of which the universe is made.

HH: Bt there are sme s%stems whi*h den% the inde#end-

ent eDisten*e ! matter and whi*h enn*iate that d is

imsel! the material *ase as well as the e!!i*ient *ase"

0hat is, e is as m*h the md as the #tter"

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D: /uite so. ( think such an idea is formulated by the *is-

ishtadvaitins.

HH: t !inds a #la*e in sme ther s%stems als" 0hgh

the% *n*ei/e ! d as the material as well as the e!!i*ient

*ase ! the ni/erse, the% d nt grant that d is the ma-

terial *ase ! indi/idal sls, !r sls are nt matter nr

is d the e!!i*ient *ase ! s*h sls, !r sls are nt

made"

D: ( understand "

HH: 0hen, $% #stlating that the indi/idal sls are nt

made $t eDist !rm time $eginningless, the% assign t them

an eDisten*e, an inde#endent eDisten*e, *-e/al with d

imsel!"

D: 0o doubt so for they call all souls eternal.

HH: Bt s d we" 0he di!!eren*e $etween r s%stem andtheirs lies nt in as*ri$ing eternal eDisten*e t the indi/idal

sl, $t in their as*ri$ing t it eternal inde#endent eDist-

en*e as all indi/idal sl and in r as*ri$ing the eternalit%

t %rahman and den% t the sl an% eDisten*e inde#endent

! %rahman"

D: (t is so.

HH: w then, we !ind that there are sme s%stems whi*h

#stlate the eDisten*e ! d as the S#reme Being and at

the same time grant the inde#endent eDisten*e ! matter

and als the inde#endent eDisten*e ! indi/idal sls" n

sme ther s%stems, d is *n*ei/ed ! as the S#reme Be-

ing as well as the #rimar% material *ase ! the ni/erse !

matter, there$% den%ing t inert matter an inde#endent eD-

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isten*e ! its wn, $t *n*eding s*h an eDisten*e t indi-

/idal sls"

D: +es.

HH: t is nl% in the dvaita s%stem that matter is denied

eDisten*e inde#endent ! d and the indi/idal sl als is

denied eDisten*e inde#endent ! d"

D: /uite so.

HH: t will $e *lear nw that the distingishing *hara*ter-isti*, whi*h eD*lsi/el% $elngs t the dvaita s%stem, is its

enn*iatin ! the nn-eDisten*e ! the ni/erse ! matter r

! indi/idal sls inde#endent ! d whi*h is *alled $% s

%rahman"

D: 0o doubt it is so.

HH: t mst $e then this distingishing *hara*teristi*

whi*h is res#nsi$le !r the name dvaita, whi*h r s%stem

has a##r#riated t itsel! and $% whi*h it is generall% knwn

t all"

D: %ut how does the name dvaita convey the idea of this

distinctive characteristic2

HH: = %rsel! said that dvaita signi!ied a negatin !

dalit%"

D: %ut +our #oliness pointed out that no religion in the

world postulated a duality in God2

HH: ite s" = *mmitted the mistake ! nderstanding

negatin ! tw-ness in d t mean negatin ! tw ds,

there$% gi/ing rm !r m% !rther >estins" ! dvaita

meant negatin ! tw ds, r s%stem has n sle right at

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all t a##r#riate that name t itsel! $t, i! it means n the

ther hand negatin ! an% se*nd #rin*i#le inde#endent !

d, we ha/e the sle right t mn#lise that name !r rs%stem" t is nl% in the latter sense that r s%stem ges $%

the name ! dvaita"

D: ( now understand the significance of the name4 but

there is 3aya the differentiating principle which is respons-

ible for the diversity in the universe of matter and of indi-

vidual souls. !urely that is a second principle.

HH: " 0hat *annt $e a se*nd #rin*i#le" ?iewing it as

the sakti r #wer r #tentialit% ! %rahman, it *an ha/e n

inde#endent eDisten*e ! its wn a#art !rm the sakta the

S#reme Persn r %rahman" rm the still higher stand#int

! a$slte trth, it has n eDisten*e at all" 3aya is the name

gi/en t it $e*ase it is not (ya ma), $t seems t $e, $r-

rwing its seeming realit% !rm the eternal /erit% *alled

%rahman"

D: The doctrine of 3aya is a bugbear to many of the mo-

dem scholars and they even go to the length of saying that it

is really a weak point in the otherwise sound system of d-

vaita.

HH: t will $e well i! it #r/es s m*h ! a $g$ear that

the mdern s*hlars lea/e dvaita alne" 0he dvaita d*-trine is enn*iated !rm a #lane whi*h rdinar% #e#le *an-

nt as#ire t !r /er% man% mre $irths t *me" 0he% ha/e

a$sltel% n right t a##ra*h it, m*h less t sit in Adge-

ment /er it" .s at #resent sitated, mst ! s are !ar, !ar

$elw that stage" rankl% s#eaking, it ma% take innmera$le

$irths !r sme ! s (wh d nt think ! the sl at all) t

attain e/en the stage ! the $harvaka or materialist, wh

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thinks that the sl is n ther than r #h%si*al $d% itsel!"

D: ( hope we are not so low down as that. The days of

rank materialism are past and ( am sure we can claim to be

astikas or believers.

HH: am nt s sre a$t that" ! % *nsider !r a m-

ment the signi!i*an*e ! the wrd astika ( !eel sre % will

%rsel! hesitate $e!re % *laim t $e ne" .n astika is ne

wh sa%s a thing is ( sti) and a nastika is ne wh sa%s a

thing is not (0asti)" S##se there is a /essel $e!re me" Can

a #ersn sa% that it is and anther #ersn at the same time

sa% it is not2

D: $ertainly not. (f the vessel is it is for both.

HH: ite s" S##se a man sa%s that the imala%a

mntain is, *an anther man wh has ne/er seen it sa% that

it is not2

D: #e can only say that he has never seen it. #e cannot

deny its eistence.

HH: 0hat is, in %r /iew, i! a #ersn sa%s that a thing eD-

ists and i! the eDisten*e ! the thing is #atent t all r is /eri-

!ia$le $% e/er%$d%, n ther #ersn *an #ssi$l% sa% that it

des nt eDist"

D: /uite so.

HH: 0here!re, an hnest di!!eren*e ! #inin as regards

the eDisten*e !r a thing *an #ssi$l% arise nl% i! that thing

is nt mani!estl% #er*ei/ed r is in*a#a$le ! $eing /eri!ied

immediatel%"

D: /uite so.

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HH: 0hat there is a !tre $irth is a !a*t nt e/ident t all

and nt *a#a$le ! $eing /eri!ied nw" 0hat there are regins

! eD#erien*e ther than this earth is als a !a*t neither #at-ent nr *a#a$le ! immediate /eri!i*atin" Similarl%, the eD-

isten*e ! d is nt #atent t all, nr *an it $e /eri!ied $%

r limited *a#a*it% ! #er*e#tin"

D: 0o doubt so.

HH: hen we *all a #ersn an astika we d nt merel%

mean that he sa%s that an% #arti*lar thing is4 nr, when we

*all a #ersn a na-stika d we merel% mean that he sa%s that

a #arti*lar thing is not. e se the term astika !r ne wh

asserts these three things+ the eDisten*e ! a !tre $irth,

the eDisten*e ! ther lokas of eD#erien*e, and the eDisten*e

! d" Similarl%, we se the term nastika !r ne wh

denies the eDisten*e ! these three" w, *nsider !r a m-

ment the attitde ! the mdern man, hwe/er ed*ated he

ma% *laim t $e" es his dail% *nd*t $ear t that he $e-lie/es in a !tre $irth, a !tre loka r e/en in d@ h%

des the *raEe !r #leasre in*rease da% $% da% as i! all en-

A%ment mst $e had nw r ne/er@ w is the $elie! in a !-

tre state ! eD#erien*e *nsistent with the grwing negle*t

! Dharma@ hat Asti!i*atin is there !r the in*rease in the

nm$er ! ;aw Crts and &egistratin

$elie/e in d, the Fternal itness ! all their transa*tins@

hate/er #e#le ma% *hse t sa% in #$li* and whate/er

the% ma% think ! themsel/es, am *n/in*ed that astikyam

!aith, is ging dwn ra#idl%" .ll r #resent endea/rs mst

$e dire*ted twards a restratin and maintenan*e ! s-

tikyam.

estins #sing as t whether the 7ltimate &ealit% is

ne, tw r ne-and-a-hal!, ha/e n #ra*ti*al interest !r the

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large maArit% ! s" e ma% there!re lea/e s*h >estins

!r the #resent and interest rsel/es in the #ra*ti*e ! r

Dharma" F/er%$d% knws that it is wrng t tell a lie"$d% has the slightest d$t a$t it" .ll the same, !alse-

hd is e/er n the in*rease" F/er%$d% knws that it is

wrng t *heat" .ll the same, *heating is the nrmal #ra*ti*e

in mdern li!e" hat is the #ra*ti*al se ! enn*iating the

a$stra*t trth ! the .$slte %rahman t #e#le wh are

nt #re#ared t #t int #ra*ti*e the elementar% #rin*i#les

! e/en !amanya Dharma ali-!%ing himsel! $% the earnest #ra*ti*e ! *isesha Dharma the

S#e*ial ;aw, #res*ri$ed !r him, a #ersn attains the re>is-

ite standard ! *m#eten*e t ena$le him t enter n the

std% ! dvaita" 0he tenden*% t negle*t the whlesme

d*trine that ?edanti* std% is intended nl% !r the *m#et-

ent is res#nsi$le !r the *n!sed thinking ! mdern da%s"

F/en !r sim#le *ra!ts, s*h as masnr% r *ar#entr%, a #re-liminar% *rse ! training is re>ired $e!re a #ersn is al-

lwed t handle the instrments $t in the !ield ! %rahma-

*idya, the s*ien*e ! the Sel!, the highest and the mst di!!i-

*lt ! all s*ien*es, e/er%$d% thinks himsel! *m#etent and

entitled t std% the s%stem ! dvaita and e/en t sit in

Adgement /er it" 0his attitde mst g and mst $e re-

#la*ed $% earnest endea/r !irst t se*re the ne*essar%

*m#eten*e" ! we make an hnest attem#t t se*re that*m#eten*e $% !llwing im#li*itl% the dire*tins ! the sas-

tras and ! the r, the ;rd will gide s alng the #ath !

#rgress, sl/e all r #r$lems and d$ts, !ree s !rm all

wrr% and tr$le and lead s n t the state ! realisatin

! the dvaita &ealit%, the trth and the $liss ! the a$slte

neness ! all in the ndi!!erentiated %rahman"

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HH: = ma% there!re, !r the #resent, ignre the $%s

and ask s*h >estins the answers t whi*h are likel% t $e

se!l t %"

D: The first question which suggests itself to me is with

reference to the sandhya worship. What is the deity or

upasya devata in the sandhya worship2

HH: Be!re we *nsider that, #lease tell me what % n-

derstand rdinaril% $% the sandhya wrshi#@

D: %y sandhya worship we mean the worship of the rising!un the setting !un or !un in the mid heavens.

HH: ite s" Cm#rehensi/el% s#eaking, % mean wr-

shi# ! the Sn@

D: +es"

HH: = tell me that sandhya is the wrshi# ! the Sn and

%et % ask me what is wrshi##ed in the sandhya" nt %

think it is an nne*essar% >estin@

D: 5ut so it may seem an unnecessary question but my

real question is what is the !un that is worshipped2

HH: hat d % nderstand rdinaril% $% the Sn@

D: We mean the bright celestial orb in the sky.

HH: 0hen it is that $right *elestial r$ that is wrshi##ed"

D: %ut that orb is according to science mere inert mat-

ter in a state of high combustion and is certainly not worthy

of being worshipped by intelligent beings like ourselves. (t

can neither hear our prayers nor respond to them. ( cannot

believe that our ancestors were so ignorant as to address

16


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their prayers to a mere burning mass of matter

HH: >ite agree with %" 0he% *ld ne/er ha/e $een s

!lish"

D: What then did they see in the !un to ,ustify their pray-

ers being addressed to it2

HH: = said Ast nw that addressing ! #ra%ers t inert

matter *annt $e Asti!ied $% reasn"

D: +es"

HH: hat then mst $e the natre ! the entit% t whi*h a

#ra%er is addressed@

D: The primary condition is that it must not be mere in-

ert matter but must be endowed with intelligence.

HH: .nd the se*nd *nditin@

D: That it must be able to hear our prayers and be power-

ful enough to answer them.

HH: ite s" ! r an*ients were nt !ls and %et ad-

dressed their #ra%ers t the Sn, their *n*e#tin ! the Sn

mst ha/e $een >ite di!!erent !rm that ! mere inert mat-

ter, in a state ! high *m$stin"

D: +es they must have also postulated of it intelligence

the capacity to hear us and the ability to help us.

HH: 0he s in*lding nt nl% all thse wh are nw li/ing

t raise their hands in #ra%er t the Sn, $t als the genera-

tins, #ast and !tre, in!inite in nm$er thgh the% ma%

$e@

17


18/79


D: 1f course.

HH: 0he entit% that is wrshi##ed as the Sn is there!re

ne whse intelligen*e r a$ilit% knws n limitatin ! s#a*e

r time"

D: (t must be so.

HH: = ha/e nw gt %r answer t the >estin as t

wh is wrshi##ed in the sandhya@ t is an intelligent Being,

mnis*ient and mni#tent in the matter ! hearing and re-

s#nding t its /taries"

D: +our #oliness then means that it is a deva who has his

habitation in the solar orb2

HH: ite s" e has nt nl% his ha$itatin there, $t the

slar r$ itsel! is his #h%si*al $d%"

D: +our #oliness means that the deva enlivens the solar

orb ,ust as we do our physical bodies2

HH: Gst s"

D: (f then he is embodied ,ust like us how does he hap-

pen to have such high intelligence or power as to merit our

obeisance2

HH: e attained that stats $% /irte ! the a##r#riatekarma and upasana dne $% him in a #re/is li!e"

D: Does +our #oliness mean that he was at one time ,ust

like ourselves and that he attained that status by his en-

deavour2

HH: =es"

18


19/79


D: Then he is no more than a ,iva which ( a(so am. Why

should a ,iva make prostration before another ,iva howso-

ever superior2

HH: h% shld %r sn r ##il res#e*t % and wh%

shld % shw res#e*t t %r s#erir !!i*ers@ .re nt

$th ! % Ai/as2

D: 0o doubt we are. %ut we respect our superiors as it is

in their power to help us or in,ure us if they so desire.

HH: 0hat is a /er% lw kind ! res#e*t" .n%hw, takinge/en that kind ! res#e*t, we mst res#e*t !urya devata i! it

is in his #wer t hel# s r inAre s, i! he s desires"

D: 1f course.

HH: Being a ,iva as m*h as %r s#erir !!i*ers, he will

hel# % i! % a##eal t him !r hel# r inAre % i! % ig-

nre r des#ise him" n %r wn interest then, % are$nd t wrshi# him and se*re his gdwill"

D: %ut ( need not court the favour nor fear the displeas-

ure of my superior officer if ( carry out the duties of my of-

fice faithfully.

HH: ite s"

D: (f ( preserve that attitude there is no reason why (should propitiate my superior officer.

HH: Certainl% nt"

D: !imilarly if l carry out strictly the duties en,oined on

me by the sastras ( need not propitiate any other ,iva be

he the highest devil.

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20/79


21/79


D: (t is no doubt so. %ut in that case in prostrating my-

self before !urya devata ( shall be really worshipping the

higher power even when my worship may seem addressed tothe !urya.

HH: hat ! that@

D: (f ( am able to conceive of such a higher power who

rules even the !urya that power is really the worshipped

entity although to all appearances the worship is addressed

to the !urya only.

HH: ite s"

HH: %ut +our #oliness said that it was !urya devata who

was worshipped2

D: =es" t is *rre*t s !ar as #ersns wh are nt a$le t

*n*ei/e ! a higher #wer are *n*erned" 0 thse hwe/er

wh *an *n*ei/e ! that #wer, e is the real upasya. 0hat#wer is *alled #iranyagarbha. e enli/ens and ensls nt

nl% the !urya, $t all de/ils" e enli/ens and inha$its nt

nl% the slar r$ $t all things" e is the *smi* #ersnalit%

wh is the sl ! all things"

D: ( suppose ,ust as we have the sense of 6(7 in our phys-

ical bodies so does that cosmic personality has the sense of

"(" in the entire *sms"

HH: e has"

D: (f so the difference between #im and me lies not in

the presence or the absence of the sense of 6(7 but only in

the degree the range or the magnitude of that sense. 3ine

is restricted #is is etended.

21


22/79


HH: t is s"

D: if it is the sense of "(" that is responsible for the

*n*e#t of a ,iva he must be as much a ,iva as myself.

HH: ite s" n !a*t e is *alled the irst Brn"

D: Then even if this higher power happens to $elng to

the category of 8ivas ,ust like myself the same ob,ection

which ( mentioned against the worship of !urya devata holds

good in his case also.

HH: hat then wld % like t wrshi#@

D: transcendent power which is not a ,iva.

HH: a/e it then that it is s*h a trans*endent #wer that

is wrshi##ed in the sandhya. e gi/e im the name !

lswara the ;rd, r the antaryami, the inner rler"

D: %ut ( have heard it mentioned that the terms )9ord) and)&uler) are only relative terms which are used in regard to

#im when we want to describe #im in relation to the uni-

verse which is )lorded over) or )ruled) by #im.

HH: =es, it is s"

D: (t cannot be that we can have no conception of him

apart from his relationship of some sort to the universe. #isrelationship to the universe can at best be only an e-

traneous circumstance. (n #is essence #e must have an in-

dependent eistence quite unrelated to anything else.

HH: = are right" e *all that nrelated essential eDist-

en*e %rahman.

D: (f it is so that must be the real ob,ect of worship

22


23/79


rather than the relative aspect called lshwara.

HH: t is e/en as % sa%" t is reall% the n>ali!ied %rah-

man that is wrshi##ed in the sandhya.

D: ( cannot really understand +our #oliness. +ou first said

that it was the solar orb that was the ob,ect of worship but

when ( pointed out that it was only inert matter you said

that it was !urya devata that was the ob,ect of worship4

when again ( pointed out that he was only a limited ,iva like

myself you said it was #iranyagarbha the cosmic soul that

was the ob,ect of worship when once again ( pointed out

that he was after all a ,iva however cosmic his sense of )()

may be you said that lswara the 9ord and &uler of the uni-

verse was really the ob,ect of worship4 and lastly when (

said that even he is but a relative aspect of %rahman you

said that the ob,ect of worship was %rahman itself.

HH: did sa% s"

D: %ut ( fail to see how all these statements can be recon-

ciled.

HH: here is the di!!i*lt%@

D: The ob,ect in a particular worship can be only one.

#ow can it be the solar orb or the deva enlivening it or #ir-

anyagarbha or (swara or %rahman at the same time2

HH: ne/er said that it was the slar r$ r the de/il and

s n"

D: Does +our #oliness mean to say then that the ob,ect of

worship is the solar orb and the devil and #iranyagarbha and

(swara and %rahman all put together2

23


24/79


HH: r did sa% an%thing ! that srt"

D: #ow then am ( to understand +our #oliness) state-

ments2

HH: hen did tell % that the #as%a was !urya@

D: When ( mentioned that the physical mass of burning

matter cannot be the ob,ect of worship.

HH: Be!re % mentined it, said that it was e/en that

mass that was the upasya.

D: +es.

HH: ne/er mentined that it was the slar $d% r the

deva as an alternati/e" 0 ne wh *annt *n*ei/e ! an en-

li/ening sl, the upasya is the #h%si*al mass t ne, hw-

e/er, wh de*lines t a**e#t inert matter as an $Ae*t !

wrshi#, said the upasya was !urya devata. The upasya is

e/er ne, $t its eDa*t natre /aries with the *m#eten*e !

the wrshi##ing as#irant" 0he upasya gets !rther re!ined

when e/en the *n*e#t ! a devil des nt satis!% the en>ir-

ing de/tee" e sa% then that it is #iranyagarbha. When

e/en s*h a *n*e#t seems meagre r nsatis!a*tr%, we tell

the de/tee that he is reall% wrshi##ing the S#reme ;rd

himsel! hen he $egins t !eel that e/en the ;rd-ness is a

limitatin ! is essential natre, we tell him that it is thein!inite %rahman itsel! that is reall% wrshi##ed" here is

the di!!i*lt%@

D: Does +our #oliness then mean that it is not possible to

definitely say what the ob,ect of worship in the sandhya is

ecept with reference to the mental equipment or intellec-

tual advancement of the worshipper2

24


25/79


HH: w *an there $e an $Ae*t ! wrshi# i! we ignre

the wrshi##er@ 0he natre ! the wrshi##ed ne*essaril% de-

#ends #n the natre ! the wrshi##er"

D: #ow2

HH: 0ake me !r eDam#le" .ll ! % shw me res#e*t" Bt

the $Ae*t ! res#e*t, thgh it is, rghl% s#eaking, m%sel!,

des di!!er with ea*h ne ! %" all% res#e*t thers wh are r ma% *me t $e in s*h a

#sitin r in s*h an srama, their hmage is there!re nt

#aid t me $t t m% #sitin r t the srama" .nd smethers ma% nt *are what #sitin hld r in what srama

am, $t gi/e me hmage where/er g and hwe/er ma%

$e their $Ae*t ! res#e*t is m% #h%si*al $d%" . !ew thers

will nt mind i! m% $d% is dark r gl% r e/en diseased, $t

will ne/ertheless gi/e me hmage i! $% #rit% ! mind and

*hara*ter r $% the #wer ! m% intelle*t and learning r $%

an% s#irital merit that ma% #ssess *mmand their re-

s#e*t" ?er% !ew indeed will res#e*t me !r the s#ark ! di/ine

intelligen*e whi*h inheres in me, as it des in all ! %"

D: 1f course it is not possible to say that all the devotees

that approach +our #oliness are of the same mental equip-

ment.

HH: ite s" Bt, rdinaril% all these #e#le, whether

25


26/79


the% reall% tender hmage t the #ara#hernalia r t m%

stats and srama r t m% $d% r t m% mind r t m% in-

telle*t r t the di/ine s#ark in me, #rstrate $e!re me tshw their res#e*t" Can % tell me, a#art !rm an% re!er-

en*e t the se/eral de/tees, t whm r t what the% #rs-

trate@

D: (t is no doubt very difficult to answer.

HH: Similarl%, with e/er% kind ! wrshi#" FDternall%

/iewed, there will $e n a##re*ia$le di!!eren*e $etween the

ne wh res#e*ts me !r the #ara#hernalia and anther wh

res#e*ts me !r the di/ine s#ark in me" FDternall% /iewed,

there will similarl% $e n a##re*ia$le di!!eren*e $etween the

de/tee wh in his $lind !aith is *ntent t address his #ra%-

ers t the lmins Sn and anther wh trns t it as a /is-

i$le s%m$l ! the in!inite %rahman" 0he >estin as t what

is the upasya in the sandhya wrshi# *an there!re $e

answered nl% in this wa%"

D: ( now understand how in the simple worship of the !un

all possible stages in spiritual perception have been

provided for.

HH: t is nt nl% this, !r % will !ind i! % *nsider the

matter still !rther, that all the three wa%s knwn as karma

bhakti and Gyana ha/e $een gi/en #la*es in the dail% wr-shi#, $t that is a di!!erent matter" Sim#le as the sandhya

wrshi# seems t $e, it is s!!i*ient t hel# s n t the

highest stages" t is as se!l t the highest as#irant as it is t

the $eginner" t is a !ll%, there!re, t $elittle its /ale r t

negle*t it in #ra*ti*e"

26


27/79


True Devotion

.nther e/ening, the *n/ersatin whi*h was >ite gen-

eral at !irst, gradall% trned n t the s$Ae*t ! bha,anasinging ! de/tinal sngs t the a**m#animent ! msi*" .

bhakta wh $elnged t the #art% in attendan*e mentined

that s*h de/tinal eDer*ises had an eDhilarating and sth-

ing e!!e*t n r wa%ward minds and that it was #leasing t

!ind that bha,ana #arties were $eing !rmed in in*reasing

nm$ers in e/er% twn and /illage"

His Holiness: am glad t hear this" Bt ha/e heard that

at the same time the $ser/an*e ! r religis rites is

steadil% ging dwn" h% is it s@

Devotee: (t is mainly because the ordinary people lack

faith in the efficacy of religious rites that they resort to

bha,ana for pleasing God.

HH: s##se that man% ! the #ersns engaged inbha,ana ma% nt *are !r r ma% e/en negle*t their rdinar%

religis dties like the sandhya wrshi#"

D: +es. They say that while engaged in bha,ana they can

give up the sandhya worship because bha,ana being a higher

kind of worship makes sandhya unnecessary and redundant.

HH: .s a general #r#sitin it is >ite tre that thegreater in*ldes the less" Bt hw d we knw that bha,ana

is ! greater e!!i*a*% than karma in the matter ! #leasing

d@

D: %ha,ana is a direct appeal to God while karma is but

an indirect appeal through the observance of rituals.

HH: s##se % *n*ede that we ha/e ne/er met d

27


28/79


#ersnall%"

D: $ertainly ( do.

HH: = mst als *n*ede that we *an ne/er ! r wn

a**rd !ind t what will #lease d and what will nt, !r

we *annt ask im dire*tl% nr *an e tell s in #ersn"

D: (t maybe so but we can easily ascertain it from the

!ruti which embodies #is teachings.

HH: = ma% als add the !mritis es#e*iall% the %hagavadGita, whi*h re*rd in n nmistaka$le terms is mind as di-

/lged t thse wh ha/e had the rare !rtne t hld dire*t

*mmnin with im, $th in the s#irit and in the !lesh"

D: $ertainly "

HH: .nd what d the% tea*h s@

D: They certainly do no discount bhakti.

HH: Certainl% nt" Bt the >estin is, what is $hakti@ s it

%r bha,ana r is it karma2

D: #ow can karma be bhakti2

HH: n !a*t, % will !ind that karma alne *an $e bhakti

and *ertainl% nt the bha,ana i! it is in*nsistent with r is

di/r*ed !rm karma.

D: #ow can that be2

HH: 0he ;rd tells s >ite nam$igsl% Man attains

#er!e*tin $% wrshi##ing d $% #er!rming the karma en-

Ained n him" e *learl% enn*iates here the #r#sitin

that the wa% t wrshi# im is t #er!rm nes assigned

28


29/79


karma"

D: %ut such a performance of karma is not the only way in

which devotion can be shown to the 9ord.

HH: t is the nl% wa% !r thse n whm karma is en-

Ained"

D: !urely a person who spends his time in prayer and con-

templation of the 9ord is as much a bhakta as if not more

the one who busies himself with outward rituals.

HH: ;ea/e again *m#aring" e will nt $e a bhakta at all

i! he *hses t negle*t the karma enAined n him in !a/r

! mental #ra%ers and *ntem#latin"

D: Why so2

HH: 0ake the rdinar% *ase ! a master and his ser/ants"

S##se ne ! his ser/ants is alwa%s standing $e!re him and

singing his #raises" 0he master ma% smetimes ask him t

!et*h smething !rm anther rm" S##se the ser/ant

re#lies, alities" nt ask me t lea/e %r

#resen*e" S##se again there is anther ser/ant wh is al-wa%s awa% !rm the #resen*e ! the master, $t is *arr%ing

t with s*r#ls *are all the *mmands ! the master,

*mmni*ated t him either $% the master #ersnall% r

thrgh his de#ties" here/er the master trns, he !inds

that he has $een mst l%all% $e%ed $% this ser/ant wh

nwhere seems t intrde n him" hi*h d % think is the

mre de/ted ! these tw ser/ants and with whm in %r

29


30/79


#inin, will the master $e #leased mre@

D: $ertainly the latter.

HH: s a !ather ha##% with the *hild wh alwa%s #re!ers t

sit n his la# and de*lines t d an%thing r with the ne wh

is ging t n errands@

D: With the latter ( should think.

HH: rther, *an % grant that the ser/ant, r the $%,

wh re!ses t lea/e the #resen*e ! his master r !ather anddes nt *arr% t his rders, is reall% de/ted at all@

D: !urely disobedience cannot go hand in hand with devo-

tion.

HH: ite s" 0he #rimar% test ! de/tin in an% s#here

! li!e is $edien*e, n>estining and l/ing $edien*e, nt

in>isiti/e r grm$ling $edien*e"

D: $ertainly.

HH: 0he !ruti and the !mriti are the *mmands !

M%sel!, sa%s the ;rd" Can % *n*ei/e ! a de/tin t the

;rd side $% side with a dis$edien*e ! is *mmands@

D: ( now see that bha,ana can never be a substitute for

karma.

HH: t *an ne/er $e"

D: What then is the function of bha,ana2 (t cannot cer-

tainly be all waste.

HH: . ser/ant, when he !inds leisre a!ter dis*harging all

his dties, ma% *ertainl% stand in the #resen*e ! the master,

30


31/79


$t nt when he has gt dties t #er!rm" Similarl% a #er-

sn, wh a!ter #er!rming all the karma enAined n him still

!inds leisre, *an s#end it in #ra%er r in singing the #raises! the ;rd and ths tilise the leisre t the $est ad/ant-

age" %ha,ana is ths intended nl% !r the **asins ! leis-

re in the midst ! karmic dties"

D: ( fear if a %rahmana should be asked to perform prop-

erly all the duties en,oined on him by the *edas and the

!mrtis he cannot have bha,ana at all.

HH: t is nt >ite s" t is nl% the laE% #e#le that are

e/er shrt ! time" 0he $s% nes are alwa%s a$le t !ind

leisre"

D: it seems to me that if bha,ana is to be done only at

the times not occupied by religious duties the castes other

than the %rahmanas will have more leisure for it as they

have to perform only very few religious observances. (t

seems that the non-%rahmanas are more competent to take

up bha,ana.

HH: ite s" t is intended mre !r them than !r the

Brahmanas"

D: (s it not an anomaly that the %rahmanas should be

denied equal privilege in this matter2

HH: " 0he% are nt denied this #ri/ilege as % *all it,

!r the% *an enA% it in their leisre mments" rther, %

!rget that *arr%ing t the *mmands ! the ;rd is a

greater a*t ! de/tin than singing is #raises" w % ma%

lk at the matter !rm anther #int ! /iew als"

D: What is that2

31


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HH: . ser/ant wh l/es t lk at the !a*e ! his master

and a/ids #er!rman*e ! his dties des s $e*ase he de-

ri/es #leasre !rm $eing with the master and !ears a *essa-tin ! that #leasre i! he has t #er!rm his dties"

D: (t may seem to be so.

HH: 0he nl% *nsideratin there!re whi*h weighs with

him in determining his *nd*t is his wn #leasre and nt

the #leasre ! his master"

D: !trictly analysed it is s"

HH: Can % *all s*h a ser/ant de/ted in an% sense

when he #la*es his wn sel!ish #leasre a$/e his masters

#leasre@

D: $ertainly not.

HH: Similarl%, i! a s-*alled bhakta #re!ers t sing t the

a**m#animent ! en*hanting msi* the #raises ! the ;rd

at the same time ignring, negle*ting and disregarding is di-

/ine *mmands, *an % *all him a de/tee at all@

D: ( fear not.

HH: .gain #lease *nsider !r a mment that that s-

*alled bhakta has a *n*e#tin ! the ;rd nl% as a /er% at-

tra*ti/e $Ae*t intended !r his enA%ment" hat *an $emre a$srd than dragging dwn the .ll-*ns*is,


33/79


meant single-#inted de/tin ni!rml% eD#ressed in mind,

s#ee*h and $d%"

Name and form

Devotee: 3ay ( ask one other question relation to bhakti2

His Holiness: =es" hat is it@

D: ( have seen a number of bhaktas who lead earnest and

pious lives but at the same time indulge in recrimination

and invective if any devata other than their own upasyadeva happens to be praised within their hearing. (s such an

attitude of intolerance consistent with true bhakti2

HH: it is nt" S*h an attitde is t $e !nd nt in

tre bhaktas $t nl% in thse wh ha/e n #r#er nder-

standing ! the meaning ! bhakti r ! the natre ! the

;rd t whm the% #r!ess t $e de/ted" 0he ighest Being,

the S#reme ;rd, the rler ! the ni/erse, trans*ends all#arti*lar names and !rms" ame and !rm are the attri$-

tes ! the mte prakriti. d has n name r !rm ! is

wn ntil % *lthe im, hwse/er slightl%, in prakriti. 0his

entire wrld ! name and !rm is, as it were, nl% is !eet,

t ad#t the wrds ! the 5urusha !ukta. e *annt ha/e an%

dire*t relatinshi# with the higher and larger #rtin ! is

di/ine #ersnalit%"


34/79


dire*tl% #n is !a*e, there will $e time engh t learn

whether is !rehead $ears the mark ! the gopichandana r

is adrned with bhasma. Sitated as we are at #resent at thelwest rng ! the ladder and e/en witht a gleam ! the

glr% ! is !eet, wh% shld we *hse t waste r time

and energ% in s#e*lating and wrangling a$t the natre !

is !a*e@ 0he tre bhakta ne/er des that" e is *ntent t

knw the sim#le de!initin ! the ;rd that e is the Creatr,

the Sstainer and issl/er ! the ni/erse" 0he name r

!rm that % assign t the ;rd is ! n mment t im, !r

e knws that that name r !rm is nt is essen*e, $t isa**e#ted r assmed nl% tem#raril% !r the sake ! a #ar-

ti*lar bhakta. 0he tre bhakta is als *ntent t knw that

the ?edas are is di/ine *mmands and that a stri*t #er!rm-

an*e ! the dties enAined $% them is the nl% wa% ! se*r-

ing the gra*e ! the ;rd and, within the *m#eten*e !

man, the nl% wa% ! ser/ing im"

D: %ut is it not a fact that a ,iva bhakta claims that ,iva is

the $reator the !ustainer and the Dissolver the universe

and a *ishnu bhakta claims that same thing for *ishnu2

HH: d$t at !irst sight it ma% seem t $e s" n the

/iew ! the !iva bhakta his ;rd Siva is the nl% Creatr, Ss-

tainer and issl/er ! the ni/erse he des nt grant that

an% ther entit%, *ishnu r anther, has the *hara*teristi*s !

$eing the Creatr, Sstainer and issl/er ! the ni/erse" e

des nt sa% that there are mre than ne entit% whi*h *an

*laim thse *hara*teristi*s r that his ;rd Siva is s#reme

/er all thers" hat he means and what he des $elie/e is

that the ;rd !iva is the nl% Creatr, Sstainer and issl/er

! the ni/erse" e des nt #stlate #lralit% ! ds, $t

em#hati*all% sa%s that there is $t ne gd wh is the Cre-

atr, Sstainer and issl/er ! the ni/erse and that is

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name is !iva.

D: $ertainly it is so. %ut the *ishnu bhakta says the same

thing of *ishnu. The devotee of Ganesha !ubrahmanya or

Devi also says the same thing of his upasya. Which of these

has to be taken as right2 ll of them surely cannot be right.

HH: = agree with me that nne ! these bhaktas #st-

late #lralit% ! ds@

D: ( do.

HH: = agree with me that the% all #stlate the eDist-

en*e ! nl% ne d@

D: $ertainly "

HH: = als nte that the% all agree in the de!initin !

that d as the Creatr, the Sstainer and the issl/er !

the 7ni/erse@

D: +es"

HH: Bt the% ha##en t di!!er as regards the name r the

!rm t $e attri$ted t that d@

D: /uite so.

HH: 0his shws that their *n*e#tin ! d is nt at all

!alt%"

D: +es.

HH: S##se % ha/e a grain ! ri*e $e!re % and %

satis!% %rsel! that it has gt all the *hara*teristi*s whi*h

are #e*liar t ri*e and that there!re it is ri*e des it mat-

ter the least t % i! a 0amilian gi/es it the name arisi, a Ca-

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narese *alls it akki r a Sanskrit Pandit #re!ers t *all it tan-

dula@

D: 0o it does not matter.

HH: nt % then realise that all names are eDternal t

and nt ! the essen*e ! things, thgh s*h names ha/e

great #ra*ti*al tilit% in the wrld ! names and !rms@ Simil-

arl%, i! the *hara*teristi*s ! $eing the Creatr, Sstainer and

issl/er ! the ni/erse are there, what des it matter i! e

is *alled !iva *ishvu r Devi2 0he entit% dented is the

same, thgh the names ma% di!!er" . 0amilian wh des nt

knw Canarese r Sanskrit will $e /ehement in sa%ing that

ri*e is *alled nl% as arisi and ne/er as akki r tandula" e is

>ite *rre*t s !ar as he ges, !r n s*h names are t $e

!nd in the 0amil langage with whi*h alne he is !amiliar"

.s lng as $% a #r*ess ! anal%sis, he des nt learn t diss-

*iate the name !rm the thing, the name is the thing !r him

and i! % den% that name, he will take it that % den% thething itsel!" arrelsme wh *annt

diss*iate a #arti*lar name r a #arti*lar !rm !rm his

*n*e#tin ! d" e is *rre*t s !ar as his mentalit% ges"

Bt his bhakti is !ar $elw that real bhakti whi*h realises

that d is a$/e all names and a$/e all !rms, that #arti*-

lar names are $t *n/enient denminatins !r tr%ing t

eD#ress the essentiall% ineD#ressi$le and that #arti*lar

!rms are nl% limited as#e*ts ! the essentiall% limitless

d"

D: (t seems to me that !ri *yasa is himself responsible for

these unseemly squabbles. #e wrote a large number of 5ur-

anas devoted to many different devata and in every one of

them he calls the devata dealt with there as the #ighest %e-

ing so that even a sincere reader is unable to understand

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which is really the #ighest %eing in !ri *yasa)s view.

HH: s##se we *an start with the #resm#tin that Sri

?%asa was neither an ignrant #ersn nr was he deli$eratel%

t t mislead #e#le@

D: $ertainly "

HH: e mst ha/e knwn the elementar% #r#sitin that

there *annt #ssi$l% $e mre than ne ighest Being"

D: /uite so. That is ,ust my difficulty. ( cannot under-stand how he chooses to call every one of the devatas as the

#ighest %eing.

HH: =r di!!i*lt% is /er% easil% sl/ed i! % nderstand

Sri ?%asa t sa% nt that e/er% devata is the ighest Being

$t that the ighest Being is e/er% ne ! the devatas"

D: #ow is that2

HH: 0he ighest Being ha/ing n name r !rm ! is wn

has t take n sme name r !rm when e is *n*ei/ed ! as

an $Ae*t ! wrshi#" Being in is essential natre a$sltel%

!rmless, in the a$slte /iew e has n !rm at all+ $t in

the relati/e /iew, all !rms are e>all% is"

D: ( do understand this. %ut !ri *yasa when he deals with

a particular form say !iva chooses to endow it not onlywith the attributes of the #ighest %eing but also with the

attributes peculiar to other devatas. #e does not deal with

!iva as the dissolver-aspect of the #ighest %eing but says

that #e is even *ishnu or %rahma and sometimes says that

*ishnu and %rahma are but #is aspects or offspring.

HH: 0ake a !amiliar in*ident in !amil% li!e" S##se a gen-

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tleman has !r *hildren and the $irthda% ! ne ! them

ha##ens t $e *ele$rated" 0hat *hild is the idl, the upasya

for the day. #e is seated n a raised seat in the *entral hall! the hse he is dressed in *stl% *lthes and is de*ked

with Aewels" s it nt nsal !r the mther and the ther

*hildren t #art tem#raril% with the Aewels that the% them-

sel/es sall% wear, s that the idl ma% $e $etter adrned@

D: (t is so.

HH: the mther and the ther *hildren !eel the slight-

est regret at #arting with their Aewels r the slightest en/% at

that *hild wearing them !r the **asin@

D: $ertainly they do not.

HH: Can an%$d% a**se that *hild ! de#ri/ing its mther

and the ther *hildren ! their Aewels n this da%@ rther,

will an%$d% a**se the !ather ! #artialit% twards that

*hild $e*ase he gi/es it #rminen*e !r the da% and e/ende#ri/es the thers ! their Aewels t ena$le that *hild t

shine $etter@

D: $ertainly not.

HH: w will % tell me in whm the right ! wnershi#

and #ssessin ! all this !iner% and all the Aewels reall%

/ests@

D: $ertainly in the father.

HH: ite s" es he e/er wear the Aewels himsel!@

D: 0o"

HH: 0hat means, that thgh all the Aewels reall% $elng

t him, he ne/er shws himsel! !! in them $t !inds #leasre

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in de*king t his *hildren in them as and when **asins

ma% arise@

D: /uite so.

HH: e ma% there!re sa% ! him that he ne/er wears an%

Aewels thgh all the Aewels are reall% his"

D: +es"

HH: 0he Aewels are his, nt nl% when the% are ke#t in the

sa!e in his *std% $t e/en when the *hild is a*tall% wear-ing them"

D: $ertainly "

HH: 0he ighest Being, the im#ersnal %rahman, is like

the !ather" e ne/er wears an% attri$tes, $t all the attri$-

tes whi*h e/er% ne ! the devatas has $elng t im" hen

a #arti*lar devata is *n*ei/ed ! as the upasya in a #arti*-

lar 5urana !r the #li!tment ! a t%#e ! bhakta that dev-

ata is gi/en the seat ! hnr, neDt t nne (nt e/en the

!ather, wh has t stand aside in the $a*kgrnd lking n

ha##il% at the *hild), and has t $e de*ked with all the at-

tri$tes whi*h rdinaril% g with the ther devatas als"

0here is a$sltel% n rm !r an% *harge ! #artialit% i! in

an% #arti*lar 5urana *ertain devata is gi/en #rminen*e

/er thers, !r when their trn *mes in the ther 5uranasthe% are treated with e>al #rminen*e" S*h is the attitde

! Sri ?%asa in e/er% ne ! his 5uranas" e knws that the

ighest $eing is de/id ! an% attri$tes, an% name r an%

!rm $t, as a #ra*ti*al tea*her, he knws e>all% well that

s*h an a$slte *n*e#tin is nt within the rea*h !

#e#le, a !ew eD*e#tins a#art, and, there!re, he !!ers !r

the *ntem#latin ! de/tees #arti*lar devatas wh,

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thgh mere as#e*ts ! the .$slte %rahman, are treated

!r the mment and !r all #ra*ti*al #r#ses as $eing

identi*al with the S#reme Being" e has s written the Pr-anas that the bhakta ! an% #arti*lar devata $% intensit% !

de/tinal eDer*ise *an $tain the !rits ! de/tin t ther

devata als, witht the need ! wrshi##ing them se#ar-

atel%, and !inall%, $% !rther e!!rt, *an attain e/en a knw-

ledge ! the .$slte %rahman, thrgh de/tin t his

#arti*lar devata" r #ra*ti*al wisdm, whi*h *m$ines

e*nm% ! e!!rt with maDimm $ene!it and ada#ts the d*-

trine ! the .$slte %rahman t the needs ! the de/teewitht im#airing in an% wa% the trth ! the d*trine, Sri

?%asa is inimita$le" ! we !ight amng rsel/es witht n-

derstanding Sri ?%asa #r#erl%, the !alt is rs, *ertainl% nt

his"


41/79


HH: d nt mean the d$ts, whi*h arise when we en-

dea/r t gras# the te*hni*alities ! the ?edanta s%stem,

$t nl% thse $rad #r$lems, whi*h #resent themsel/es tan% ne wh makes an attem#t at seris thinking"

D: $ertainly there are very many such doubts.

HH: ill % !rmlate ne ! s*h d$ts and tell me

hw % ha/e tried t sl/e it@

D: ( shall mention one of such doubts which is repeatedly

coming up to my mind and for which ( have found no solutionyet. ( shall be very grateful if your #oliness will solve it for

me.

HH: Please mentin it"

D: (t is no other than the problem of the eternal conflict

between fate and free-will. What are their respective

provinces and how can the conflict be avoided2

HH: 0he #r$lem is indeed a /er% great ne and wld

$a!!le the intelle*t ! the highest thinkers, i! #resented in

the wa% % ha/e dne it"

D: What is wrong with my presentation2 (n fact ( only

stated my problem and did not even eplain how ( find it

difficult to solve.

HH: =r di!!i*lt% arises e/en in that mere statement !

the #r$lem"

D: #ow2

HH: . *n!li*t is *n*ei/a$le and #ssi$le nl% i! there are

tw things" 0here *an $e n *n!li*t i! there is nl% a single

thing"

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42/79


D: %ut here there are two things fate and free-will.

HH: FDa*tl%, t is Ast that assm#tin that is res#nsi$le

!r the #r$lem arising in %r mind"

D: (t is not my assumption at all. #ow can ( ignore the

fact that they do eist as independent factors whether l

grant their eistence or not.

HH: 0hat is where % are wrng again"

D: #ow2

HH: .s a !llwer ! r !anatana Dharma, % mst knw

that !ate is nthing eDtranes t %rsel!, $t is nl% the

sm ttal ! the reslts ! %r #ast a*tins" .s d is $t

the dis#enser ! the !rits ! %r a*tins, !ate, re#resenting

thse !rits, is nt is *reatin $t nl% %rs" ree-will is

what % eDer*ise when % a*t nw"

D: !till ( do not see how they are not two distinct things.

HH: a/e it this wa%" ate is #ast karma !ree-will is

#resent karma. Bth are reall% ne, that is, karma thgh

the% ma% di!!er in the matter ! time" 0here *an $e n *n-

!li*t when the% are reall% ne"

D: %ut the difference in time is a vital difference which

we cannot possibly overlook.

HH: d nt want % t /erlk it, $t nl% t std% it

mre dee#l%" 0he #resent is $e!re % and, $% the eDer*ise

! !ree-will, % *an attem#t t sha#e it" 0he #ast is #ast and

is there!re $e%nd %r /isin and is rightl% *alled adrishta,

the nseen" = *annt reasna$l% attem#t t !ind t the

relati/e strength ! tw things nless $th ! them are $e-

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!re %" Bt, $% r /er% de!initin, !ree-will, the #resent

karma alne is $e!re % and !ate, the #ast karma is in/is-

i$le" F/en i! % see tw wrestlers #h%si*all% s>atting $e-!re %, % *annt de*ide a$t their relati/e strength"

r, ne ma% ha/e weight, the ther agilit% ne ms*les and

the ther tena*it% ne the $ene!it ! #ra*ti*e and the ther

! *lness ! Adgement and s n" e *an n these grnds

g n $ilding argments n argments t #r/e that a #ar-

ti*lar wrestler will $e the winner" Bt eD#erien*e shws that

ea*h ! these >ali!i*atins ma% !ail at an% time r ma%

#r/e t $e a dis>ali!i*atin" 0he nl% reasna$le, #ra*ti*aland sre methd ! determining their relati/e strength is t

ask them t wrestle with ea*h ther" hile this is s, hw d

% eD#e*t t !ind $% means ! argments a sltin t the

#r$lem ! the relati/e /ale ! !ate and !ree-will when the

!rmer $% its /er% natre is nseenH

D: (s there no way then of solving this problem2

HH: 0here is this wa%" 0he wrestlers mst !ight with ea*h

ther and #r/e whi*h ! them is the strnger"

D: (n other words the problem of conflict will get solved

only at the end of the conflict. %ut at that time the problem

will have ceased to have any practical significance.

HH: t nl% s, it will *ease t eDist"

D: That is before the conflict begins the problem is in-

capable of solution and after the conflict ends it is no

longer necessary to find a solution.

HH: Gst s" n either *ase, it is #r!itless t em$ark n

the en>ir% as t the relati/e strength ! !ate and !ree-will"

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D: Does +our #oliness then mean to say that we must

resign ourselves to fate2

HH: Certainl% nt" iring mre ha##iness r !r red*ing

miser%, % ha/e t eDer*ise %r !ree-will in the #resent"

D: %ut the eercise of free-will however well directed

very often fails to secure the desired result as fate steps in

and nullifies the action of free-will.

HH: = are again ignring r de!initin ! !ate" t is nt

an eDtranes and a new thing whi*h ste#s in t nlli!% %r

!reewill"


45/79


and nm$er ! s*h reslts and gi/e # in des#air an% at-

tem#t t /er*me r mitigate them" F/en in this li!e, !r-

get!lness is a $n whi*h the mer*i!l d has $een #leasedt $estw n s, s that we ma% nt $e $ried at an% m-

ment with a re*lle*tin ! all that has trans#ired in the

#ast" Similarl%, the di/ine s#ark in s is e/er $right with h#e

and makes it #ssi$le !r s t *n!identl% eDer*ise r !ree-

will" t is nt !r s t $elittle the signi!i*an*e ! these tw

$nsI!rget!lness ! the #ast and h#e !r the !tre"

D: 1ur ignorance of the past may be useful in not deter-ring the eercise of the free-will and hope may stimulate

that eercise. ll the same it cannot be denied that fate

very often does present a formidable obstacle in the way of

such eercise.

HH: t is nt >ite *rre*t t sa% that !ate #la*es $sta*les

in the wa% ! !ree-will"


46/79


HH: t need nt gide s at the start" .t the start, %

mst nt $e $sessed at all with the idea that there will $e

an% $sta*le in %r wa%" Start with $ndless h#e and withthe #resm#tin that there is nthing in the wa% ! %r eD-

er*ising the !ree-will" ! % d nt s**eed, tell %rsel!

that there has $een in the #ast a *nter-in!len*e $rght

n $% %rsel! $% eDer*ising %r !reewill in the ther dire*-

tin and, there!re, % mst nw eDer*ise %r !ree-will

with re-d$led /igr and #ersisten*e t a*hie/e %r $-

Ae*t" 0ell %rsel! that, inasm*h as the seeming $sta*le is

! %r wn making, it is *ertainl% within %r *m#eten*e t/er*me it" ! % d nt s**eed e/en a!ter this renewed

e!!rt, there *an $e a$sltel% n Asti!i*atin !r des#air,

!r !ate $eing $t a *reatre ! %r !ree-will *an ne/er $e

strnger than !reewill" =r !ailre nl% means that %r

#resent eDer*ise ! !reewill is nt s!!i*ient t *ntera*t

the reslt ! the #ast eDer*ise ! it" n ther wrds, there is

n >estin ! a relati/e #r#rtin $etween !ate and !ree-will as distin*t !a*trs in li!e" 0he relati/e #r#rtin is nl%

as $etween the intensit% ! r #ast a*tin and the intensit%

! r #resent a*tin"

D: %ut even so the relative intensity can be realised only

at the end of our present effort in a particular direction.

HH: t is alwa%s s in the *ase ! e/er%thing whi*h is ad-

rishta or nseen" 0ake, !r eDam#le, a nail dri/en int a

wden #illar" hen % see it !r the !irst time, % a*tall%

see, sa%, an in*h ! it #rAe*ting t ! the #illar" 0he rest !

it has gne int the wd and % *annt nw see what eDa*t

length ! the nail is im$edded in the wd" 0hat length,

there!re, is nseen r adrishta s !ar as % are *n*erned"

Beati!ll% /arnished as the #illar is, % d nt knw what is

the *m#sitin ! the wd in whi*h the nail is dri/en" 0hat

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als is nseen r adrishta. w s##se % want t #ll that

nail t, *an % tell me hw man% #lls will $e ne*essar%

and hw #wer!l ea*h #ll has t $e@

D: #ow can ( fi the number of pulls now2 The number

and the intensity of the pulls depend upon the length which

has gone into the wood.

HH: Certainl% s" .nd the length whi*h has gne int the

wd is nt ar$itrar%, $t de#ended #n the nm$er !

strkes whi*h dr/e it in and the intensit% ! ea*h ! s*h

strkes and the resistan*e whi*h the wd !!ered t them"

D: (t is so.

HH: 0he nm$er and intensit% ! the #lls needed t take

t the nail de#end there!re #n the nm$er and intensit%

! the strkes whi*h dr/e it in"

D: +es.

HH: Bt the strkes that dr/e in the nail are nw nseen

and nseea$le" 0he% relate t the #ast and are adrishta"

D: +es.

HH: we desist !rm the attem#t t #ll t the nail

sim#l% $e*ase we ha##en t $e ignrant ! the length ! the

nail in the wd r ! the nm$er and intensit% ! the strkeswhi*h dr/e it in@


48/79


end"

D: %ut there certainly are many things which are im-

possible to attain even after the utmost eertion.

HH: 0here % are mistaken" ! there is an% thing, it is $%

its /er% natre *a#a$le ! $eing eD#erien*ed" 0here is nth-

ing whi*h is reall% nattaina$le" . thing, hwe/er, ma% $e n-

attaina$le t s at the #arti*lar stage at whi*h we are, r

with the >ali!i*atins that we #ssess" 0he attaina$ilit% r

therwise ! a #arti*lar thing is ths nt an a$slte *hara*-

teristi* ! that thing $t is relati/e and #r#rtinate t r

*a#a*it% t attain it"

D: The success or failure of an effort can be known defin-

itely only at the end. #ow are we then to know beforehand

whether with our present capacity we may or may not eert

ourselves to attain a particular ob,ect and whether it is the

right kind of eertion for the attainment of that ob,ect.

HH: =r >estin is *ertainl% a /er% #ertinent ne" 0he

whle aim ! r Dharma sastras is t gi/e a detailed answer

t %r >estin" 0he% anal%se r *a#a*ities, r *m#et-

en*%, and #res*ri$e the a*ti/ities whi*h a #ersn endwed

with a #arti*lar adhikara *an ndertake" 0he a*ti/ities are

/aris and nm$erless, as the *a#a*ities als ha##en t $e

/aris and nm$erless" &eglatin ! a*ti/ities r, in therwrds, the dire*ting ! !ree-will int *hannels least harm!l

and mst $ene!i*ial t the as#irant, is the main !n*tin !

religin" S*h reglated a*ti/it% is *alled svadharma. &eligin

des nt !etter mans !ree-will" t lea/es him >ite !ree t

a*t, $t tells him at the same time what is gd !r him and

what is nt" 0he res#nsi$ilit% is entirel% and slel% his" e

*annt es*a#e it $% $laming !ate, !r !ate is ! his wn mak-

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ing, nr $% $laming d, !r e is $t the dis#enser ! !rits

in a**rdan*e with the merits ! a*tins" = are the master

! %r wn destin%" t is !r % t make it, t $etter it r tmar it" 0his is %r #ri/ilege" 0his is %r res#nsi$ilit%"

D: ( quite realise this. %ut often it so happens that ( am

not really the master of myself ( know for instance quite

well that a particular act is wrong at the same time ( feel

impelled to do it. !imilarly ( know that another act is right

at the same time however ( feel powerless to do it. (t

seems to me that there is some power which is able to con-trol or defy my free-will. !o long as that power is potent

how can ( be called the master of my own destiny2 What is

that power but fate2

HH: = are e/identl% *n!sing tgether tw distin*t

things" ate is a thing >ite di!!erent !rm the ther whi*h

% *all a #wer" S##se % handle an instrment !r the

!irst time" = will d it /er% *lmsil% and with great e!!rt"0he neDt time, hwe/er, % se it, % will d s less *lm-

sil% and with less e!!rt" ith re#eated ses, % will ha/e

learnt t se it easil% and witht an% e!!rt. 0hat is, the !a-

*ilit% and ease with whi*h % se a #arti*lar thing in*rease

with the nm$er ! times % se it" 0he re#eated and !amil-

iar se will lea/e $ehind a tenden*% t se it" 0he !irst time

a man steals, he des s with great e!!rt and m*h !ear the

neDt time $th his e!!rt and !ear are m*h less" .s ##r-

tnities in*rease, stealing will $e*me a nrmal ha$it with

him and will re>ire n e!!rt at all" 0his ha$it will generate

in him atenden*% t steal e/en when there is n ne*essit% t

steal" t is this tenden*% whi*h ges $% the name vasana. 0he

#wer whi*h makes % a*t as i! against %r will is nl% the

vasana whi*h itsel! is ! %r wn making" 0his is nt

!ate" 0he #nishment r reward, in the sha#e ! #ain r

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#leasre, whi*h is the ine/ita$le *nse>en*e ! an a*t, $ad

r gd, is alne the #r/in*e ! !ate r destin% 0he vasana

whi*h the ding ! an a*t lea/es $ehind in the mind in thesha#e ! a taste, a greater !a*ilit% r a greater tenden*% !r

ding the same a*t n*e again, is >ite a di!!erent thing" t

ma% $e that the #nishment r the reward ! a #ast a*t is, in

rdinar% *ir*mstan*es, na/ida$le, i! there is n *nter-

e!!rt $t the vasana *an $e easil% handled i! nl% we eDer-

*ise r !ree-will *rre*tl%"

D: %ut the number of vasanas or tendencies that rule ourhearts are endless. #ow can we possibly control them2

HH: 0he essential natre ! a vasana is t seek eD#ressin

in tward a*ts" 0his *hara*teristi* is *mmn t all vasanas

good and $ad" 0he stream ! vasana the vasana-sarit as it is

*alled, has tw *rrents, the gd and the $ad" ! % tr% t

dam # the entire stream, there ma% $e danger" 0he sastras,

there!re, d nt ask % t attem#t that"


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t an% vasanas. .t that stage, %r mind will $e #re as *r%s-

tal and all mti/e !r #arti*lar a*tin will *ease t $e" ree-

dm !rm the reslts ! #arti*lar a*tins is an ine/ita$le*nse>en*e" Bth !ate and vasana disa##ear" 0here is !ree-

dm !r e/er mre and that !reedm is *alled moksha.

Sr*e+ Dialogues with The Guru *m#iled $% &" 'rishnaswami %er

The Utility of God

. %ng man, a t%#i*al #rd*t ! the mdern s%stem !

ed*atin, was smehw attra*ted t the #resen*e ! isliness and was dl% intrd*ed t him" n the *rse ! the

*n/ersatin whi*h ensed, is liness asked him+

His Holiness: see that % ha/e a lt ! leisre" Ma%

knw hw % tilise it@

Devotee: ( cannot say that ( utilise it4 it spends itself.

HH: F/identl% % are nt ne ! thse leisred #e#le

wh *m#lain that time des nt #ass"

D: 0o.

HH: am /er% glad t hear it" n !a*t, knwing hw #re-

*is e/er% mment ! r li/es is, we mst reall% *m#lain

that time des #ass /er% >i*kl%"

D: ( do not complain about the passing of time either.

HH: t is nl% thse wh waste time that *m#lain ! the

#assing ! time" 0hse wh !eel that their time is well s#ent,

ne/er ha/e that *m#laint"


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spent. Whether it is well spent or ill spent does not affect

the inevitable passing of time. nd there are no absolute

standards from which we can say that it has been well spentor ill spent.

HH: Certainl%" Bt i! time is s#ent in sme manner whi*h

des nt in an% wa% distr$ %r e>ili$rim r an%$d%

elses, it gi/es % sme mental re#se"

D: !uch a repose is found only in sleep.

HH: ite s" Bt we *annt slee# alwa%s" e seek s*hmental re#se e/en while awake" t is nt #ssi$le !r s t

sit /a*ant minded"


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s$Ae*ts, i! nl% t #ass the time@

D: ( have read a few books but ( have found them t $e

mere wrds"

HH: hat mre *an % eD#e*t in a $k@ = mst s#-

#lement it $% %r wn thinking" Sin*e % ha/e read sme

$ks n the s$Ae*t, % mst ha/e !rmed sme idea a$t

s*h things as the e/ltin ! the ni/erse and the eDisten*e

! d"

D: %ooks do not give us any definite ideas. ;ach authoradopts his own line of speculation and wants to make out

that it is superior to every other


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them r are the% *n*ei/ed ! therwise@

D: The latest theory is that the atom is itself a gross form

of the infinite energy which is inherent in it.

HH: hate/er it $e, s*ientists realise that it is energ% r

!r*e whi*h gi/es s$stan*e r eDisten*e t the atm r

whi*h rles its a*ti/ities"

D: +es.

HH: 0he% will als ha/e t grant that that energ% is *m-mn t all atms, is hmgenes and is in!inite"

D: +es.

HH: .s energ% *an $e transmted, there is n reasn t

s##se that the #rimal energ% in ne atm is ! a di!!erent

srt !rm that in anther"

D: 1f course not.

HH:


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tra*e t atms" = and eDist" .#art !rm r #h%si*al $d-

ies whi*h are, ! *rse, matter, there is the s#ark ! intelli-

gent *ns*isness in s whi*h *annt *me nder the*ategr% ! matter and that als has t $e eD#lained i! a

*m#lete eD#lanatin ! the ni/erse is attem#ted" w d

the s*ientists see t eD#lain it@

D: The scientists proper concern themselves only with the

material universe.

HH: Bt there mst ha/e $een thinkers wh ha/e *n-

sidered the ther as#e*t als"

D: +es there are some such thinkers but ( do not think

that they have postulated a prime cause for the intelligent

principle in us. They have answered either that such prin-

ciples do not eist independent of our bodies or that they

are eternal and cannot be traced to another cause.

HH: h% did the% nt *nsistentl% assme that the wrldhad n $eginning and *annt there!re $e tra*ed t a *ase@

D: The variedness of the world requires some eplana-

tion.

HH: S des the /ariedness ! r sls"

D: %ereft of etraneous things there is no reason for our

assuming that one soul is different from another.

HH: t is e>all% s in matter" Bere!t ! eDtranes things,

there is n reasn !r r assming that ne atm ! matter

is di!!erent !rm anther" n !a*t, % tra*ed all atms t a

#rimar% *asal !r*e where there was n /ariedness"

D: +es.

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HH: M% nl% #int is, wh% dnt % *nsistentl% and !r

the same reasns #stlate the eDisten*e ! a #rimar% *asal

intelligen*e res#nsi$le !r the wrld ! in!inite sls@

D: We may do so.

HH: 0hen, ad#ting the methd ! s*ientists, we ma% ar-

ri/e at the *n*lsin that there is a #rimar% *asal !r*e re-

s#nsi$le !r the ni/erse ! matter and als there is a

#rimar% *asal intelligen*e res#nsi$le !r the ni/erse !

sls" e mst als grant that ea*h ! s*h #rimar% *ases

has in!inite #wer ! eD#ressin"

D: +es no doubt so.

HH:


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*mmn t $th !r*e and intelligen*e and whi*h *an take

n the !rm ! !r*e r intelligen*e a**rding as we /iew it

!rm the stand#int ! the ni/erse ! matter r !rm that !the sls" n ther wrds, we ma% #stlate that rt *ase

as ndi!!erentiated intelligen*e !r*e :$hit-sakti=. We *all

that %rahman" .s intelligen*e and !r*e are $t as#e*ts !

the same entit%, we *an *hara*terise it nl% $% sa%ing that it

is and we there!re smetimes gi/e it the sim#ler name !

!at Being"

D: %ut all this is only speculation.

HH: t is, i! we ignre the sta$le athrit% ! the ?edas,

whi*h enn*iate and #r*laim s*h a !a*t" .#art !rm this,

what des it mater i! it is nl% s#e*latin@ .s ha/e alread%

mentined, it hrts n$d%"

D: %ut is that any reason for wasting our brains on this

matter2

HH: t is !ar $etter than wasting r $rains n an% ther

matter" rther, there is a great #siti/e $ene!it als"

D: What is that2

HH: S##se a man is t !ee$le t walk des it nt glad-

den his heart t knw that he has smene wh is strng and

willing t s##rt him@ .nther man ma% $e /er% ill will itnt $e sme relie! t him t knw that there is a kind d*tr

near at hand t attend t him@ .nther still ma% $e srel%

tried $% #/ert% will nt his tr$le $e alle/iated $% his

knwing that there is a ri*h and kind relati/e *lse $% wh

*an #la*e him a$/e want@

D: $ertainly.

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HH: F/er% mment ! r li/es we are !a*e t !a*e with

innmera$le *ases ! srrw smetimes ill-health, sme-

times #/ert% and s n" ill it nt gladden r hearts tknw and t !eel that there is sme$d% else *lse at hand

wh *an relie/e s ! the *ases ! r srrw, and gi/e s

*m!rt, i! nl% we ask !r it@

D: (t is certainly a consoling thought.

HH: 0here is n se in lking # t anther si*k man

when % are si*k r t anther #r man when % are #r"

D: $ertainly not.

HH: e mst then think ! ne wh is strng and health%

r wh is ri*h"

D: 1f course.

Bt r di!!i*lties d nt end with illness r #/ert%@

D: 0o. The difficulties to which we are sub,ect are infin-

ite in number.

HH: n e/er% ne ! r di!!i*lties, it will $e a relie! t

knw that there eDists a !riend wh is !ree !rm that di!!i-

*lt%"

D: +es.

HH: e mst there!re knw as man% s*h !ree #ersns as

the nm$er ! di!!i*lties whi*h tr$le s"

D: %ut that is not possible as the number of difficulties

is infinite.

HH: ite s" t will there!re $e a great relie! t s i! we

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*an !ind ne #ersn wh is !ree !rm all di!!i*lties@

D: $ertainly but where are we to find him2

HH: eath is ne ! the tr$les ! this wrld@

D: $ertainly.

HH: Birth is e>all% a tr$le@

D: >ndoubtedly in fact it is the prime trouble which

leads to all other troubles.

HH: t will there!re relie/e s t knw that there is a

!riend wh is nt s$Ae*t t $irth r death and *an in addi-

tin *re s ! $th these ills"

D: 9ogically it is so.

HH: all% in!inite in nm$er" e wld there-

!re like t ha/e sme !riend wh *an !l!ill all r wants"


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stan*es" 0here!re, a#art !rm the a$stra*t >estin

whether the eDisten*e ! s*h a !riend, whm we *all d,

*an $e #r/ed r demnstrated, there *an $e n den%ing the!a*t that the $elie! in s*h a !riend is ! great #ra*ti*al $e-

ne!it"

D: #ow can we believe in a person of whose eistence

there is no #roof2

HH: we $elie/e nl% in thse things whse eDisten*e is

#r/ed@ ! we limit r $elie! t s*h things it will $e im-

#ssi$le t d an%thing in this wrld" e ha/e t ha/e !aith

in the wrds ! e/er%ne that *mes int *nta*t with s" .s

a stranger standing $% the rad dire*ts %, at %r re>est,

t a hse % are sear*hing !r, % d nt em$ark n an

en>ir% as t his hnest% r as t the *rre*tness ! his knw-

ledge $t, #la*ing immediate and im#li*it relian*e n him,

% g as dire*ted $% him" ! then % rea*h the wrng

hse, it will $e time engh t !ind !alt with him" !, hw-e/er, $e!re !llwing his dire*tins % want" him t #r/e

t % that he is right, the nl% thing he *an d is t take %

$% the hand and lead % t the hse e/en then % mst

$e #re#ared t g with him" t will nt d i! % re!se t

m/e a single ste# and %et eD#e*t him t #r/e the *rre*t-

ness ! his statement" Similarl%, when % ha/e a$sltel% n

reasn t d$t the gd !aith ! r an*ient seers wh #r-

*laim d, % mst $e #re#ared t #la*e im#li*it !aith in

their wrds" ! % !llw their di*tates and !ind at the end

that the% were wrng, it will $e time engh then t $lame

them, $t nt till then"

D: The seers were as much human beings as ourselves.

#ow did they happen to know of God when we do not2

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D: Till some years back our village was a prosperous one.

During recent years however it has gone down very much.

We pray therefore that your #oliness will be pleased to con- fer your blessings upon us so that the village may once

again get back to its former prosperity.

HH: Certainl% the ;rd will listen t %r earnest #ra%ers"

Bt desire t #int t that an a##eal t the ;rd is ne*es-

sar% nl% when the remed% is nt in r hands"

D: #ow is the remedy in our hands2

HH: = tell me that the /illage has gne dwn in #rs#er-

it% dring the re*ent %ears" Bt, i! m% in!rmatin is nt in-

*rre*t, there are mre stre%ed hses nw than $e!re and

the hses are mstl% $ilt in stne, $ri*k and mrtar and

are well lighted, well /entilated and attra*ti/e, >ite nlike

the md-walled dark and ding% that*hed hts in whi*h %r

!re!athers s#ent their li/es"

D: (t is no doubt so.

HH: = wear *lthes !iner and *stlier than what %r an-

*estrs were *ntent with and ha/e /er% man% things whi*h

the% ne/er e/en dreamt !

D: $ertainly.

HH: hile the% tra/eled $% ri*ket% *arts alng mdd%

rads t /illages nl% a !ew miles awa%, % *an nw tra/el

$% the $est ! mtr *ars /er well-#a/ed rads t #la*es

thirt% times mre distant in a$t the same time"

D: (t is true we have all this.

HH: hile the% had t $e *ntent with the il lam# !

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l*al man!a*tre t light their hses, % get %rs !rm

a*rss the seas % ha/e $rilliant lights nw, e/en i! ele*tri*

installatins ha/e nt %et rea*hed %r /illage"

D: 0o doubt we have.

HH: 0hen what is %r *m#laint@ = ha/e in a$ndan*e

all the re>isites ! *m!rt and ha##iness, !ar mre than

%r an*estrs had" hat mre d % want@

D: (t is true that we have all these things but the fact

remains that we are not as comfortable and happy as our forefathers.

HH: w *an that $e@ ! the means ! ha##iness ha/e, as

% admit, in*reased, ha##iness als mst ha/e in*reased" t

*annt #ssi$l% $e red*ed in an% *ase"

D: (t is however reduced and we desire to know how we

can regain the old happy state.

HH: 0hen we mst en>ire int the matter a little dee#er"

0here mst $e smething wrng smewhere" !, as % ad-

mit, the means ! ha##iness ha/e in*reased, the nl% #s-

si$le lgi*al *n*lsin is, either that we are wrng in the

assm#tin ! the real means ! ha##iness, assming that

the% are real means" e shall !irst *nsider whether the

mdern im#r/ements that % nw enA% are reall% themeans ! ha##iness"


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nte that the eDisten*e ! wet *la% in/aria$l% #re*edes the

making ! a *la% #t" e nte als that i! n wet *la% is

a/aila$le n *la% #t *an $e made" e in!er !rm these tw#arallel and *rr$rating !a*ts that wet *la% is the *ase

and the #t is the e!!e*t" Similarl%, i! we want t /eri!% the

statement that the mdern ad/antages are the *ase ! ha#-

#iness, we mst ad#t these tw methds" w % !ind that

% enA% these mdern amenities and %et ha/e n ha##i-

ness@

D: (t is so.

HH: 0hat means that the reasning $% the anvaya methd

des nt lead % t the *n*lsin that the% are related as

*ase and e!!e*t"

D: (t seems so.

HH: = !rther admit that %r !re!athers did nt ha/e

these mdern amenities and %et were ha##%"

D: They were.

HH: 0his again means that the reasning $% the vyatireka

methd als des nt esta$lish s*h a relatinshi#"

D: (t is so.

HH: t !llws there!re that the mdern amenities arent the real means ! ha##iness"

D: 9ogically it does.

HH: Bt we d want ha##iness@

D: $ertainly.

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