church of scientology of california, plaint i ff, · rec
TRANSCRIPT
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SUPERIOR COURT OF TEE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
DEPARTHENT No , 57 EoN. PAUL G. BRECKENRTDGET JR. , \ t uDGE
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,
P l a i n t I f f ,
V S .
GERALD ARMSTRONG,
D e f e n d a n t .
I'|ARY SUE HUBBARD,
APPEARANCES I
N o . C { 2 0 1 5 3
f n t e r v e n o r .
T u e s d a y r . I u n e S , 1 9 6 {
Volume 25
P a g e s 4 3 6 5 t o 4 5 4 7 , l n c ] .
(See Appearance page. )
l^.tNrOS C BUNCHffi*tTscA c^ilYor{ nrLEt, rDttoooutofitrs,cASrL
NANCy HARRIS, CSR NO. 6rt{HERBERT CANNON, CSR NO. 1923OFFICIAL REPORTERS
C@PY
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APPEARANCES:
F o r t h e P l a i n t i f f r PETERSOII & BRYNAI{BY: JOHN G. PETERSON8 5 3 0 W i l s h i r e B o u l e v a r dSu i te 407B e v e r l y H i l l s , C a l i f o r n i a 9 0 2 1 1( 2 1 3 ) 6 5 9 - 9 9 6 s
for the fn te rvenor r
-anq-
ROBERT N. HARRIST h e O v i a t , t B u i l d i n g5 1 7 S o u t h O l i v e S t r e e LS u i t e 9 1 5L o 6 A n g e l e s , C a l i f o r n l a 9 0 0 I 4( 2 1 3 ) 6 2 6 - 3 2 7 L
LITT & STOR}IERBY: BARI .ETT S . L ITTParanoun t P laza3 5 5 0 W i l s h i r e t s o u l e v a r dsu l te 1200Los Ange Ies , Ca l l f o rn ia 90010( 2 r 3 ) 3 8 5 - 4 3 0 3
-and-
BARRETT S. LITTBY: I { ICHAEL S. HAGNUSONThe ov ia t t Bu l l d ing6 1 7 S o u t h O l i v e S t r e e tS u l t e 1 0 0 0t o s A n g e l e s , C a l i f o r n i a 9 0 0 1 4( 213 ) 623 -7s r r
CONTOS 3 BUNCHBY: I I ICHAEL J. FLYNN
-anci-JULIA DRAGO.IEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Bou leva rdSu l te t t 00W o o d l a n d H i l l s , C a l l f o r n i a 9 1 3 6 7( 2 1 3 ) 7 1 6 - 9 { 0 0
For the Defendant :
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INDEX POR P a g e s { 3 6 5 4 5 4 7 , l n c
DAY DATE PAGE
Tuesday J u n e 5 , 1 9 8 4 A , l l .P . ! { .
{ 3 6 5{ { 8 3
PROCEEDINGS
SURREBLITTAL { 38 r
HITNESSES
P L A I N T I F F ' S :
ARIiSI.RONG, Gerald(Rcburra l )
DEFENDAN?I8 SURREBUITAL'
HALTERS; Edrard(nssuned )
DOUGLAS, Klma( Fur ther )
SCEO}|ER, Sorard
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FLAINTIPP rS r
l I I - Le t te r 6 -18-812 Ger ry to Suer 6Ddcopy, L. Ron Hubbard A gr iefts lographlcal Skebch
FORIDEN?IFICA?ION
INEVIDENCE
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I I
I$DEX oF VOLUHE 25 (Cont lnued)
EXHIB ITS
P L A I N T I F F I S :FOR
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I I I I - Copy one-page let ter 5-18-8{re Hon ier Schoner 4543 {5 {5
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L O S A N G E L E S , C A L I F O R N I A ; T U E S D A Y , J U I i E 3 , 1 9 t j 4 i 9 z ( t 4 A . t { .
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THE COURT: A ] I r rgh t , i r . t he case on t r i a l l e t t he
r e c < . r r d r e f i e c t t n a t a l l c o u n s e r a r e p r e a e n t . y o u m a y c a l r
y o u r n e x L w i t n e s s .
M:{ , l i . i , rR i i IS : YeB, Lhank yor t your i ionor .
GEiALD ARMS1T, .O i iG,
t h e d e f e n d a l i h e r e r n , c a l r e c r a : i a w i t n e r , e i n b e h a i f o f t h e
p l a i n ; r f i i ; r e b u L l a l l h a v i r r g D e e n p r e v i o u s i y B u r o r n r r € e u m e d
i h c G L i n ; a n u L e s l ' i { i e o { u r i h e r a s f o i l o w s r
T I I E c o u R T : s t r t e y o u r n a m e a g a r n f o r t h e r e c o r d , s i r .
Y O U a f e ; f f 1 1 r i i r u € I g , e L h .
: i l ; l J l T l i E S S : G e r d i u A r n r 6 L r c r n g .
i , . r i . H A R i i S : Y o u r H o n o : ; , I h a v e . 1 o o c u m e n E o a c e i
1 3 J u n e , i 9 8 l , . l . l a i ' t h a t b e m a r k e r j p r a i n c r f f , s n e x r r n o r d e r .
I b e l i e v c 9 J
: l i l C O U k : : J l I .
DIRECT E)(A!. ; I i i . lT 1O;.:
! Y H P . . H } , R I I I S :
i l : r . A r n s L : o h 9 , i a r * g o i n g t o s h c w y o u e x h i b i t
l I I a n d a s k y o u t f y o u r e c o g r r i Z € i t .
A Y e g .
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A D l r e c t i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h
o n t h e f i r s t p a g e , t h e t h i r d s e n t e n c e , . A n d y o u p r e t t y
w e l l h a v e t o a s s u m e t h e v l e r + p o i n ! o f a f a l r l y
c r i b i c a l i i o g g i s h n o n S c i e n L o l o g i s t a s t . h e
d e d l c a t e o S C l . l S . D o n ' c e v e n n e e d t h e t s i o g , .
Do you see t i r a t?
A l e s ,
A W h a t i s ' w o g g i s h ' ?
A ' l { o g g i s h ' i s a t e r n t h a t c o n e s f r o r , t h e u s e a f
Ehe word ' b log ' wh ich was an ac ronym o f ' r i o r l hy o r i en ta l
G e n l l e m a n w h i c h l t r . H u b b a r d b o r r o w e d a n d t u r n e c l i n t o a
n o n s c i e n t o l o g i s t b e i n g a H o g . A n d ' n o g g i s i r , t o a
S c l e n t o l o g i s t , m e a n s l h a t E o n e o n e d o e s n o t h a v e t , h e
p a r t i c u l a r k n o w l e d g e , w i s c i o n , a b i l i t y t h a L a s c i e n t o l o g i s t
d o e s ; t h a t h e i s u n a b r a r e , s t u c k i n t h e r e a c t i v e n i n d a n o
g e n e r a l l y l n a n o n o p t i n r u n c o n d i t l o n o f s t u p i d i t , y a n d
unav ra reness . t i r a t l s l $oEE i sh .
A A n d S C t i S , i s t n a L S c i e n t o l o g i e t ?
A Y e s .
O D l r e c t i n g y o u r a t t e n t i o r i t o t h e s e c o n d p a g e ,
t h e f l r s t p a r a g r a p h , l h e t h i r d a e n L e n c e , . I ' m n o t e v e n
a a y l n g t h a t l y i n g l s b a d . '
A n d t h e n y o u g o o n ' . . . t h e w r i t e r s h o u l o
j u s t r e a l i z e w h a t h e i s s a y i n g a n d k n o w t h e
s o u r c e o f t , h e d a t a . '
T h a t i s w h a t y o u u r r o t e ; r i g h t ?
A D i d r r y P e i r ?
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I 367
0 Y e s .
A Y e E .
0 A n c t h o s c h { : i ! - v - - ' - r t r . . : l t i s t , - . a : ) ' c - l r : i g i n a t e i
a}- t i .e t i r re ' /
- \ \ a s .
l t R . l l A R l I S j : h I l r i E l : r . I L a v e a C c ' : ; - t : ' c n t o a t e i
2 6 N o v e i u r e r , 1 9 8 , i . l ! a ) ' t l , a r - b € n r a r k e i ; - ' L a i r : : i f f ' : e x h i b i t 1 1 2 .
Ti : i COJRT: I L ; .cuEht- wa na: : : : an or : r r t i g+- r -hes{ '
m a t t e r s w o r . r i ; b e p r o d u c e 3 a l o n g t i n e d 9 o , C o u n s e l , t h a t
w e r e g o i n l t o b c . u : . e a i r , J r o s s .
l . l : . . H A r l i I ! . : I i ' : l i e r t t h a t h , e c i r i , Y ' ; u r : l : ' n o r , b e f o r e
a r : d i f Y o u r r H o n c r r e c a l l s , T s a i C t h e r e w e r e a c c u p l e o f
th i . ngu tha t now t l r a " - H r . l ' 11 ' r rn ha i i n t roduced ona ' I wa r , ' , ed
to i n+ - roduce a r t c :hc r .
! , t t : . i ' L i N : : : T h e ' s e , h a v r n e v e r b e e n p : : o o u c e d . T h i s 1 s
t h e f i r s t I h a v e s e e r ' t t . i s .
0 B i ' l i i . . l lARi l * l : I as l . ) o t l ' 11 : . Armet ro i : i ,
i g t h a t e x h i b i t l l 2 s o n e t h i n E t h a t y o u r e c o g n j - z e ?
A You mean as a l ready p : ' oouce i i n t h rs case '?
0 [ i c . D c y o u r e c c g n l z c i t ?
F . Yes .
0 And tha t i s Bon€ tb lng tha t you au tho red?
A Y e s .
a At thaL t ime wher : you h-ere wr i t ing up your
repo r t reapec t i ng Nornan S ta rk l ' w { :n t i ng ycu to be aec
checkedr fou sa id eve ry ! fu lnE was oka l ' ; i . s t ha r r iEh t?
A I s a l d v h a t ?
0 E v e r l ' t h i n g w a s a l l r i c ; h t . , t h e : ' e w a s n ' t E n y
t /2't
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prob lem; i s t ha t r i gh t?
A I ra id , " I t i e s i l l y and cou ld have been hand lc
in f i ve m inu tes ' commun ica t i on . ' I sa id , ' The repo r t p re t t y
w e l l c x p l a i n s i t a l l . "
A And was that your s tate of mind at the t ime?
A Bas ica l l y rega rd ing the r€po r t , I suppose .
0 So was i t the case that you were thrnk ing of
Ieav ing on the 25th of November t98 l?
A I don ' t know i f t ha t was the case a t t he t ime .
You chould understand that one d id not y i th ln the Sciento logy
network or to people involved ever wr i te that you ucre rca l ly
concerned ebout be ing acc checked, becauce t f thcre was
ruch rn ind icat ion, you cer ta ln ly would be sec checked s l th in
a few m lnu tcg ,
So, I t r ied to be aa d ip lomat ic as poseib le
end I ccrteinly was not going to convcy the type of terror
vh ich cx ic ted in my guto at that t ime.
A And that uaa your statc of mind vas terror at
the t ime you urotc th ie 26 November, l98I d ispatch i is that
corrcct?
A We l l , l e t ' s pu t l t t h l s ways I wae go ing
through r gre l t deal . I t may not have been the instant I
wrote i t bccause I rnay have been typ ing at that Lnstant , but
there uag a per lod of t i rae whenr EB I have tcet i f ied, I
actuel ly nadc arrangements wi th Omar Garr lgon uhere in I - -
i f I d idn ' t eome back f rom being aec checked at Ct{O INT,
I was golng to rnake arranEementa ao that we vould have to have
r neet lng ro that , I could escape f rom these people.
2 / 3
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a And had you made those arrangementa pr ior to
wr i t i ng the 26Lh Novenber , l gg l 1e t te r?
A I made the arrangements when I vent out to
C ! {O INT , so i t was a t l eas t t ha t much p rev lous l y .
0 A l l r i . gh t . D id you have a conve rea t i on w i th
I t1 r . K ings ley Winbus t i n Augus t o f 19E3?
A I v e r y e a s l l y n a y h a v e . I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e
da te , bu ! K ings ley came to my p lace and we d id ta l k r 60 I
con ' t r eca l l i f i t vas Augus t . The da te does no t s t i ck l n
n y n i n d .
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0 A n d d i d y o u t a l k t o h l m a b o u t t h e d o c u n e n t e ?
A I p o s s i b l y d i d . I - - i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a
p e r i p h e r a l s u b j e c t , b u t w e b o t h r e l a t e d o u r r e s p e c t i v e
s t o r i e s a b o u t g e t t i n g o u t o f L h e o r g a n i z a t i o n , L h e t h i n g s
t h a t h a p p e n e d t o u s . o e l i v e r y o f t h e d o c u m e n t s p l a y e d a
n a j o r p a r t i n n y b e i n g a b l e t o g e t o u t o f t h e o r g a n l z a t i o n l
a o I p r o b a b l y d i d t a l k t o h i n a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n t s . T h e r e
i s n o t h i n g p a r t i c u l a r t h a t c o m e s t o n i n d , h o w e v e r .
0 D i d y o u t e l l h i n ' , o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s d u r i n g
y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h h l m t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g w a s
a c o m p l e t e l i e a n d n o t t r u e ?
A N o . W h a L I m a y l i a v e s a i o i s , ' D o n t t b e l i e v e F l € .
I d o n r t w a n t t o b e b e l i e v e d . Y o u f i n d o u t f o r y o u r s e l f .
f a m n o t h e r e t o b e b e l i e v e d . I o o n ' t w a n t t o b e t h e n e w
L . R o n H u b b a r d w h o h a s p e o p l e b e l i e v i n g h i n i a n d c o n n i n g
t h e m . T h a L i s n o t m y p o s i t i o n . '
b e l i e v e
y o u m a k e
ayou nay
A
S o I w a s p r o b a b l y f a i r l y e r n p h a t i c w i t h , ' D o n ' r
r i e . I d o n ' t e v e n r - - I d i d n t t h a v e a n y d o c u n e n t s .
f s a l d , ' Y o u d o n ' t e v e n k n o w i f I a m l y i n g . S o
u p y o u r m i n d . '
D i d y o u s e y r H r . A r m s E r o n g , ' i { h a t I a n t e l l i n g
b e a c o n p l e t e l i e ' ?
L e t m e e x p l a i n t o y o u . W h a l I s a i d w a s , ' Y o u
D o n r t b e l i e v e m e , Y o u l o o k f o r y o u r s e l f . '
A n d t , h a t w a s t h e c o n t e x c i n w h i c h y o u s a i d v h a L
s a y i n g w a s a c o n r p l e t e l i e ?
I p r o b a b l y s a i d a t s o m e p o i n t , ' Y o u d o n r t k n o w
d o n t t k n o w .
0
you may be
A
i f I a m l y i n g o r n o t . "
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B u ! f n e v e r s a i d b o h i n r , ' I a m l y i n g t o y o u . '
I t r i e c i t o b e v e r y p r e c i s e . A n d I t r i e d t o r n a k e
s u r e b h a t h e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t I w a s g i v i n g h i n m y o s n
o b s e r v a L i o n s a n c r t h a t i t w a s n o t a L . R o n H u b b a r d t r u t h .
l ' l R . H A R R I S : N o f u r L h e r q u e s t i o n s .
CROSS-EXAHINATIOT{
BY HiT. FLYI.IN:
A H r . A r n s t r o n g , s i n c e y o u l e f t h a v e y o u t a k e n a
p a r t i c u J a r p h i l o s o p h i c a l v i e w t o w a r d t . h e n e e d o f f o r n e r
S c i e n t o l o g i s t s t o f i n d t h e t r u t h o u t f o r t h e n i s e l v e s ?
A Y e s .
A W h a t i s t h a t p h i l o s o p h i c a l v i e w ?
A W e l l , i t i s s o r t o f l i h a ! I s t a t e d .
H a n y p e o p l e s e a r c h n e o u t a n d c a l l m e a n d t a l k
to rne and ran t t o ge t wha t t hey Lh ink i s t he t . ru th f ro rn n ,e .
A L e t r n e s L o p y o u r i g h t t h e r e .
S i n c e y o u l e f t t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a n d i t h a s b e c o m e
k n o w n t h a t y o u a r e i n v o l v e d i n t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , h o w m a n y
p e o p l e w o u l d y o u e s t i m a t e h a v e c a l l e d y o u l o o k i n g t o f l n d
ou t . answers abou t L . Ron Hubbard?
A I suppose i have been ca l l ed by - - I don r t know,
maybe 20 o r 30 . And then I have been app roached by naybe
a n o t h e r 5 0 o r 1 0 0 i n d i f f e r e n t ] o c a t i o n s o r c o n t a c t s .
0 Have you been con tac t .ed by l awyers , f o r exanp le ,
as fa r away as Eng land?
A Y e s .
A G o a h e a d a n d c o n t i n u e y o u r c u r r e n t p h i l o s o p h i c a l
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v i e w t o w a r d h o w s c i e n t o l o g i s t s s h o u l . d f i n d o u t t h e t r u t h o f
w h a t i s g o i n g o n i n t h e o r g a n i z a L i o n ?
A W e I l , I g u e s s d e e p d o w n I t h i n k t h e y r l l a l l f i n d
o u t L h e t . r u t h a n d u l t i n i a t e l y w h a t r s a y o r w h a L t h e d o c u m e n t s
s a y r e a l l y d o e s n ' t m a t . L e r ; t h a t i n e v i t a b J . y t h e b r u t h a b o u t
L , R o n H u b b a r d w i l l c o m e o u t . A n d t h e r e i s n o t h i n g t h a t r
p a r t i c u l a r l y h a v e t o d o .
f a m n o t i n a p o s i L i o n r e l a t i v e t o t h e
o r g a n i z a t i o n o f w a n t i n g t o a t t a c k t h e m o r t o a t t a c k L . R o n
H u b b a r d . r a m h e r e s o r t o f b y r n i s f o r t u n e r a t h e r t h a n a n y
d e s i r e t o d o t h e g u y i n .
A N o w , i n N o v e m b e r , l 9 8 I y o u h a v e b h a t l e t t e r i n
f r o n t o f y o u w i t h r e g a r d t o y o u r s t a t e o f r r i n d a t t h a t t l r n e ;
y o u r v i f e J o c e l y n t e 8 t i f i e d t h a t w h e n y o u r d e r e i n y o u r r o o m
r h e n y o u w o u r d t a r k y o u w o u l d t u r n t h e r a o i o l o u o o u t o f f e a r
t h a t p e o p l e w o u r d b e e a v e s d r o p p i n g o r t h e r e w e r e b u g s i n t h e
r o o m ; d o y o u r e c a l l t h a L t e s t i m o n y ?
A Y e s .
A D i d t h a b t a k e p l a c e ?
A T u r n i n g t h e r a o i o u p , y e 6 ; t h a t t o o k p l a c e .
A A n d w a s t h a t t h e s t a t e o f r n i n d y o u w e r e i n a t
t h e b i m e ?
A Y e s .
A F e a r E h a t y o u r s u p e r i o r s w o u l d f i n d o u t w h a t y o u r
s t a t . e o f n i n d w a s ?
A Y e s .
A S o w h e n y o u w r o t e l e t t e r s s u c h a s t h a t l e t t e r
o f 2 6 N o v e m b e r , 1 9 8 1
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437 3
A I k e p t h o p l n g r i g h t u p t o w h e n I f i n a l l y c o u l d
n o t s t a n d t t a n y n o r e t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e a c h a n g e i n t h e
o r g a n l z a t i o n . A n d i t j u s t d i d n ' t h a p p e n a n d i t h a s n r t
h a p p e n e d . f t w l l l h a p p e n . I t i s B o r t o f l n e v l t a b l e . T h e y
c a n n o t c o n t i n u e o n w i t h t h e d e c e l t a n d r l t h t h e a t t a c k s o n
l n d i v i d u a l s a n d p e o p l e w h o s e e k t o f l n d o u t E h e t r u t h .
B u t a t t h a t t i m e i t d i d n r t h a p p e n . A n d I B i m p l y
m a d e t h e c h o i c e t o l e a v e .
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43J 4
A Nou at that tinc vrfrc you fcerful of bcing
tec checked?
A Y e B .
a And to your knowlcdge had !lr. Hrrrie cvGr gone
through a gecurity check?
TIIB COURT: l{.a th"ere an obJcctlon to that?
HR. HARRISI No.
?HE HITNESS: l{o. I don't knon. I don.t thlnk he
h a s .
A BY ltR. FLYNNT And ln the lagt fev daye have
you net siEh l1r. Hmer Ehoner?
A l e s .
0 And Ju6t yes or no, did he relate to you the
rO-hour recurity check that hc rent through vhen be tord then
hc uantcd to leave?
A YGs .
MR. AARRIS: Objectionl trearlay. Hr. Shomer is
auppoted to rppclr.
t lR. fIrYi lH: He yl l l rppear.
A Here you ryarc rhat a peraon ycnt through,
ltr. Arartrong, in thc fell of I9SI yhen they wGrG recurl.ty
checked bccauce they ranted to leave the organiratlon?
A I had a pretty fair idea of shat asaited me
lf Lt vac found out before I did lcavc that I yar going to
laavc.
a Now, ln thls axhibit narked 111 - - lncidcntal ly
ras thGra a phraee that ull ured in the upper levels of
Scicntolggy eanagenent cal led the rAeccptable truth.?
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437 5
A Ycah.
A And was that coincd by L. Ron Hubbard
if you know?
A y e s .
a And what did thet nean?
A It was a cuphanirn for lying.
O And uas it connonly underctood rnong top
nanagenent lcvcla of scientology that thcy could uae the
acceptabre truth for rhaL€ver purpoBe they ranted to
achieve?
!t[R. BARRTS: r r i l r objcct to that .comnonry underat
Your llonor.
THE couRTr Hell i f thlr vLtncsr knows he can rnlr€r.
I f he doegn' t , he can ao r ta te.
TBB TITNESS: YegI i t ra I .
O By t{R. FLYNN: Nor in cxhibit l l l you uaed
the rords, "Dcdicated scicntorogista donft even nced the
biogrephy. '
By 'dcdicated. di.d you ncan Scientologl.sts or
preclears who $ere just start ing to Join the organlzation
uho ucre trying to find out about it?
A No .
o Did you !!ean people who had onry been invorved
for e fer nonths vho yere aeking questlons about vho Lr thlr
L- lon Hubbard and thig organiaation he etartsd?
A No .
0 t{hat did you mean?
A Peoplc vho uere ln a 6tatc rherc they would
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437 6
bel ieve h im rcgard less of vhat bc ra id .
0 And regardless of vhat the facta u:re?
A Yes. t {ou1d not er r r ine the facta.
0 And did you know such people?
A Y e s .
0 And to your nind is ltorman Starky such a
person?
A Y e s .
O And had you known other high level Scientologist
ruch ae Kima Douglas, fot exanple, uho while she vas
invoi.ved would take the acoeptibrc truth regardleeg of yhat
the facte were?
Ir lR. HARRIS: HeI l , the gucst lon ca l ls for a conclus ion,
Iour f lonor, baged upon hearsly.
TEE COURT: I wi l l suste in the object ion.
0 BY MR. FLYNN; And had you known many other
high nanagenent level Scientologista sirni lar to Norman Starky
vho rould take the acceptable truth regardless of the facts,
l lr . Arustrong?
A Y e s .
THE COURT: On thig letter, can you interpret for me
rhat the word 'Cope' gtands for. HCO, I understand
neans ltubbard Communl.cation Of f ice. Cope Of f .
TBE COURT: Cope Off icer.
TBE COURT: What ie 'Cope'?
TIIE I{ITNESS: It meana to deal with, to cope with.
It ic e pcrton uho handles problems.
THE COURT: Oh. Everybody has got to have a t i t le,
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I gueas.
O By lr{R. fLyNN: Xoy, elong high lcvel lanagencnt
ScientoLogists there uaa r connon underrtanding es to uhat
rcceptable truth n€ant; lg that your testinony?
A yeg .
fHE COURT: That le vhat he reid.
O BY f'tR. fLyNH: And on page 2 rtrcrc you raid,
'r tm not Gvcn eaying tbat lying 1s bad.t waa that the frane
of aind that htgh levcl nanagenent sclantologirts hcld
throughout thc lrear8 of crSrcrl.ence that you had Ln obscrving
then?
l{R. ELYNN: I vi l l obJect to thatl cel ls for a
conclusion.
TEE COURT: I vt l l rurtein the obJcction.
A Bf HR. ELtT{Nr tfhat did you ncan vhen you raid
that, l.lr. Arngtrong?
A There l,g a couple of lcvelc of undarstanding
of that.
In ScLentology and what really perhape is
scientologD, on r phllrophic lcvcl, goodness and badness rnd
r!'ghtnerr rnd rrongnear erc juat eongl.derations, md nothing
te good or bld. I t le al l ralat ive.
Lytng 1g the Barue thing on a phlloeophlc level.
Hoscver l t ig lying. Lylng lr lying. That lc the poLnt.
I t rae ly ing.
On the othcr hand, being relatl.ver the goodnese
or bedneer shich can bc rchl.cved by a lic Lg eonething
clBG, tnd thG lylng and the defended lylng of L. Ron Hubbard
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and the deetruction of rnyone rho rought to bring to l ight
the t ru th beh . i nd the l i e i s , a t l easL i n th l s ve ry tempora l
w c r l d , i n m ) ' o p i n i < . r n , r e l a t i v e l y b a d .
0 Now hon nrany shore s tor iee d id you learn vh i le
you were in the Church of Sc iento logy?
I \TR. I IARF. IS: I th ink we have been over th is , your
Honor .
MR. FLYN! { : You r f l ono r , t h i s i s t he l as t ques t i on .
Jus t has to do w i th r rha t l y i ng i s i n t he ch ' : r ch o f sc ien to logy
T E E C O U R T : A l l r i g h t , o v e r r u l e d . Y c u c a n a n s w e r .
THE WITT, IESS: Maybe 20, mayoe more. I l ived a ghore
s to ry the w l ro le t ime .
l {F . . FLYNN: tha t l s a l l I have , Your Honc r .
T i fE COITRT: Mr. Harr is?
U R . H A R R I S : J u s t b r i e f l y .
REDIRECT EXAICINATION
BY MR. I IARRIS:
0 l . { r . Armstrong, when you were work ing in
November 1981 in the arch ivesr tou sent ouLside the church
bu i l d ing ; d id you no t?
A Y e s .
O And you regu la r l y wen t ou ts ide the chu rch
b u i l d i n g ; l s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A Y e s .
a And f rom t i r .e to t ine you would take your wi fe
and go p laces i n November o f 1981 ; i sn ' t t ha r * co r rec t?
A Y e s .
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437 9
A 6o thle trlhlng ln thc ro@r end turning thc
radio loud, this raa Just on one occaaion or rcvcral
occaeions?
A f lel l , ! l t . Harri l , u! l ivcd in our rooo. That
ig uhere we rlept. hlc didn't r leep in the strccta at that
point .
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0 I n s o f a r a a a n y c o n v € r s a t i o n e b e t u e e n y o u a n d
y o u r w i f e a b o u t l e a v i n g , y o u c e r t a i n l y h a d , i n t h a t v e r y
n o n t h , t a k e n y o u r w i f e e l s e w h e r e t h a n t h e C h u r c h ; l s t h a t
c c r r e c t ?
A l e s .
H F . . H A R R I S : N o f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s ,
H R . F L I N I { : N o t h i n g f u r t h e r r Y o u r 8 o n o r .
T I i E C O U R T : Y o u n a Y s t e P d o w n , s i r .
! 1 R , H A R R I S T l o u r H o n o r r I w o u l o a s h t h a t t h e
B o n a v e n t u r e r e c o r d s b e n a r k e d a s P l a i n t i f f r s n e x t 1 n o r d e r
a n d n o v e t h e n i n L o e v i d e n c e ,
t { R . P L I N N : N o o b j e c t l o n .
T t l E C O U R T : V e r y u e l l . I 1 3 ; E h e y r i l l b e r c c e i v e d .
!1R . HARRIS r The re i s one oLher docun ten t , You r Honor ,
v h i c h l s a c e r t i f i . e d c o p y o f t i r e R a l s L o n P l l o t l t i s a
c e r t i f i e d c o p y o f L h e R a l s t o n P i l o r A n n u a l R e p o r t .
l t a y t h a t b e n a r k e o P l a i n t i f f ' s n e x t i n o r d e r ?
T l i E C O U R T : A I l r i g h t . I I 4 .
l {R . f LY t i } i r I s t h i s be ing o f f e red a t t h i s t i ne r l ou r
Eonor ?
t { i l . HARRIST I l i 6 .
l ' lR . PLYNt i ; I r ou ld ob jec t on t , he g round tha t
M r , G a r r i s o n L e s t i f l e d t h a ! H r . A r m s t r o n g k n e w n o t h l n g a b o u t
t h l s .
H l t , L I f T r t h a t i e a l l r i g h t .
T i iE COURT: I l l e j us t ev idence o f a fac t .
I r I l o v e r r u l e t h e o b i e c t i o n . I t w i l l b e
r e c e i Y e d ,
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HR. HARRIS : l { e res t , You r Honor .
T H E C O U R T : I s t h e r e a n y g u r r e b u t t a l ?
l lR , . FLY I ' i t i : h -e have go t a l i t t l e b i t , You r Honor .
H r . i J a l t e r s , p l e a s e .
S U R R E B U T T A L
EDWARD WALTERS,
r e c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s b y t h e D e f e n o a n t l n e u r r e b u l t a l r h a v i n g
b e e n p r e v i o u s l y d u l y E w o r n , a n d t e s t i f i e o f u r t h e r a s
f o l l o u s :
T t i i i COUi tT : t l r . l . Ja l t e r6 , you have a l ready been sworn i
j u s t h a v e a a e a t a n d 6 t a t e y o u r n a m e a g a i n f o r t h e r e c o r d .
Y o u a r e s t i l l u n d e r o a t h .
T i iE WIT t iESS: Ec iward Ha l te rs , W-a - l - t -e - r - s ,
DIRECT EXAI{INATION
BY MF,. PLYNN:
A $ r . W a l t e r s , t h e r e h a s b e e n t e s t i m o n y l n t h i s
caea re la t , i ve t ,o the Eth ics ano Jus t . l ce Sys tem o f the Church
of Sc ien to logy and we have had nunerous exh ib i te wh ich uere
i n t r o d u c e d r e g a r d i n g t h a t s y s t e r n i w e r e y o u f a m i l i a r w l t h
t h e E e h i c s a n o i u s t i c e S y s t e n o f t h e C h u r c h o f
S c i e n t o l o g y ?
A Y e s .
0 H a v e y o u h a d e x t e n s i v e E r a i n i n g l n c o n n e c t i o n
wi th tha t sys tern?
A Y e s .
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0 t { h a t d l d y o u r B r a l n i n g l n v o l v e ?
A t {e1 .1 , I have done evcry aud l t ing courae up to
t h e h l g h e s t o f C l a e s V I I I . A n d I h a v e s t u d l e d t h e E t h i c s
course a l , l the l fay up . And I have func t ioned as an Eth ics
o f f l c e r .
0 A n d y o u h a v e a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d a s t o h o w m a n y
y e a r s y o u r e r e l n v o l v e d , r o u g h l y f r o n 1 9 7 0 t o 1 9 7 9 i n t h e
o r g a n l z a b i o n ?
A Y e s .
0 D u r i n g t h a t p e r t o d o f t l m e d l d y o u h a v e
e x p e r i e n c e s o n a l n o s b a d a i l y b a s i g a s t o h o w t h e E t h i c s a n d
. Ius t i ce Sys tern worked in connect ton w l th s ta f f nenbers and
h o w t t u o r k e d i n r e g a r d t o t h e G u a r d i a n r e o f f i c e ?
A Y e g .
A And rou ld you descr ibe to the Cour t how Ehe
E t h i c s a n d J u s t i c e S y s t e n w o r k e d i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e
pub l lc , s ta f f r ind Guard ianre Of f l ce pereonne. l '?
HR. I iARRIS: Ic l t d i f fe ren t as to each one? o therw ise
t t wou ld be compound and ca l l lng fo r a conc lus ion .
l lR , PLYNN: They are in te r re la ted , Iour Honor .
tHE COURTc Over ru led .
TBE WITNESS r Our bas lc too l ln Sc ien to logy is
a u d t t i n g r t h e a c t u a l s e l l i n g o f t h e a u d i t i n g a n d a l s o t h e
t r a i n i n g o f p e o p l e t o b e c o n e a u d i t o r s . T h a t l s o u r b a s l c
t h i n g t h a t w e d o .
Eth ics carne ln because o f two reasonss
One, you need e th ice 60 tha t there is a
;c t o f ,d isc tp l lne !n Sc len to logy 80 tha t an ind iv idua l
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e a n s t a r t a t o n e p o i n t , a n d e a n t h e n b e k e p t g o i n g a l o n g
t h a E p o i n t .
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Ilov rlrcn I .ntrr.d Bclcntology, I thoroughly
rgrced vith that. ltG hed to kccp r lr€rron cthical. rc hed
to keep hin on purpoaG, not coqlitttng crilrr, Dot dolng
enything that rould nakc bin an lnnorel p.rron. ?lut
rpuld be for his bonefit ro hig euditing rould rork.
All r lghtr then, therc lr rnother ridc of
cthicr. Bthice also 1r to kcep the lndivJ.dual oa our purpo.e,
the thlrd dynenLc purpoae. r donrt knor if the court 1g
fenillar vith thc dynrnicsr but the thlrd dynamic purpoac of
Scicntology - -
A That ig thc group purpoee?
A The group puq)orG, rhich Ls aruch ior€ difficult
beclure the group purpose Ls p.rpGtntcd in llcr ro that
tou tGC ln thlr courtroom, you htvc hcard all of the
higher upr ud the recret berte rnd ro fortb, but out in the
ftcld whcre I am, rhere ue deal wlth the public people,
uc hevo tons of llryerr. re havl lono of doctora. lfc havc
young proplc cglrc in rho ere off the rtreets. There arc not
these dedicatad Sclentologlsts that you Bec here wtro
bclieve anythtng.
When an lndivldual cotrrcs in, our problcn it to
try to rake hln a sclcntologlrt, rcrl hln as nuch audittng
for thc nonry that he has, Lt poealble havc hiur buy courrca
to bccone an euditor. But we have got to sorry thet at
eny tlnc hc findg out that thlnge nay not be thc uay he
thought they wer€, tr. nov hlve I nce athlct problGE.
lfe hava ethlce, lreanlng a dangar to thc
thlrd dynanlc. rn the ficld r canrt have the eon of a lavycr
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goiqg to hls father rnd reylng that ue erc rrkl.ng h!.n to
rcII hls hone or r€ arc erklng hin to dirconncct, not talk
to hls father rnynorc bccaure hls frther dlngrees rlth
Scientology and/or he read thinge end pollclcr rherc 8clcntol
Lg above the Justice tyatem, ct cetcra. So, noy, rr hevc to
handle that.
In the Guardianrs officc that bcconee
Guardianre office property. That ls a danger to Scicntology.
So, cthicg at that polnt le to put thc
individual lnto a pocl,t ion rhcre he reallzes hc Le dolng
ronethlng that ie golng to causc a thrcat to thc orgenlzation.
It is no accident that the lower condit iona are cellcd
cncny, l iabi l l ty, and as in prevlous tGstinony, i f the
lndividual docg not gee thise y€ vlll, do vhat lt takee for
bin to gct to ree it . I t depends yhere hc is. I f hc ig
brand ncw, ye have to go very casy because he could ualk
out on ua rny tine.
If he ualke out, now re have got a f lap, and
in thc Guardlan'r off ice then verd have to, i f re believe he
ie auppressive, ue declare bin fuppreralve, which Deana he
has crlmea, 3<r urr have to f lnd thc crimes.
If he is going to go to t lawyer, thcn we have
a f lap. So anyvay out j .n the f leld where I work, i t le
a d i f ferent Gth icr . One, there ie - - i t he lpe h ig audi t ing.
It kceps hisr - - ue can't have. gluy out doing imoral
thingr vhi le he is gett ing audit lng becauae uc are tcl l ing
hln rudit lng ie for his benefit , but the other sl.de of i t is
ethlce ir used for the organiration, deeign to f ind the
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cncBy.
O To keep the pcrson Ln l ine?
A y e 6 .
O Now, with regard to the falr g.ne doctrlnc
es it is understood by eomeone rho ls Juat a publlc person
taking courses, would you describe to the court hoy a
peraon ir lnstructed as to what the falr grme doctrlnc Eang
when they first come into the organization and becooe aurre
o f i t ?
A lferl , vhen they f irst come in, re hope thet thcy
ncver get aware of l t .
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0 Our Job ls no t to te l l thcn about tha t . I n€an
l f the parson v l l l cone ln and do h ls courace and g lve u8
h l a n o n e y , r e t l l n o t t h r e a t e n o r a b u s e t h e n l n a n y u a y . l . e
donrE have - - none o f tha t , conea up un lese thc pcrgon beconee
a l l a b l l l t y o r a t h r e a t t o t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n .
O A l l r l g h t ,
t lR . BARRIST l love to s t r l ke the ansuer as nonreEpons ive
to the qucs t lon , Iour Honor .
THE COURTT f r l l deny the no t lon .
A By l lR. FLYHNT Nou, DorC pcople rhen they cone
ln and t t ,a r t , aud l t lng , rha t do thc l r knou v i th regard to the
organ lza t lona l s t ruc tu rc o f the Church and rhab le done,
fo r c ranp le r r l th thc l r ln fo rna t lon g lvcn up ln a leee lon ,
rn rud l t lng ra ra lon?
l lR . BARRIST I r I l obJec t .
fHE COURTT I f I l sue ta ln the obJece ion to the fo rm o f
thc ques t , lon .
Ee can tel l rhat they are to ld. What anyone
alght hnow cal , Is for a conclusion.
A BY HR. PLINNT t lhat are people gcneral ly to ld
r l tb regard to Lha nr tu rc o f tho rud l t lng proceea Juet vhen
they r ta r t?
A t{hen they r tar t
l ln . EARRISI By th ls u l tness r e t l c he genera l l z lng
rt th ls point , Iour l lonor?
THE COURTT I th lnk he has sonc background and
lsnovlcdge.
l lR. BAR8IST l lay I volr d i re bln, Iour Honor?
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l n
T l iE COURT: Yes .
V O I R D I R E E X A M I I . I A T I O N
B I I ' 1 i I . H A R R I S :
M r
A W e r e y o u e v e r a s t a f f n e n r b e r o f a n y o r g a n i z a t i o n ,
W a l t e r s ?
A A s a p a i d s t a f f , o o . I h a v e h e l d e v e r y p o s i t i o n
t h e O r g s .
A f n w h a t O r g s ?
A I n C e l e b r i t y C e n t e r , L a s V e g a s .
0 Y o u w e r e o n s t a f f a t t h e t i n r e ?
A l l o . I w a s v o l u n t e e r s t a f f .
l l R . H A R R I S : N o f u r E h e r q u e s t i o n s .
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N ( R e S u m C d )
BY }1R, . FLYNI i :
0 N o w , i n t h e i n i t i a l s t a g e s w h e n s o r n e o n e f i r s t
c o m e s i n , ! 1 r . W a l t e r s , w h a t a r e t h e y b a s i c a l l y t o l d a b o u t
w h a t t h e a u d i t i n g p r o c e s s i s ?
A A n i n d i v i d u a l c o m e s i n ; w e d o a n i n t e r v i e w w i t h
h i n t o f i n d o u ! i f h e i s o n e o f t w o t y p e s o f p e o p l e ; i f h e
h a s s i c k n e s s , i l l n e s s , o r a b e r r a t i o n s r r { € t e l l h i m t h a t w e
h a v e t h e c u r e f o r i t ; t h a t L . R o n f i u b b a r d h a s f o u n d t h e
s i n g l e s o u r c e o f a l l a b e r r a t i o n s , € t c e t e r a . A n d w e l i n e
h i n u p t o g e t p r o c e s s l n g .
I f h e c o r r r € s l n l o o k i n g t o f i n d a n e w l i f e o r t o
h e l p h i s f e l l o w m a n o r h e l s i n t e r e s L e d i n t h e t e c h n o l o g y
a n d t h e s c i e n c e s , t h e n w e w o u l d l i n e h i m u p t o s t u d y t h e
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tcchno logy o f L . Ron Hubbard . So i t depends on wh ich one
$ e h a v e .
0 N o w , w h e n a p e r s o n b e g l n s t h e a u d i t l n g p r o c e s s
w h a t a r e t h e y t o l d w l t h r e g a r d t o w h a t l s d o n e w l t h t h e
t n f o r n a t i o n t h a t t h e y g i v e u p i n t h e a u d i t l n g p r o c e s s ?
H R . H A R R I S : A g a i n , t h i s c a l . l s f o r h e a r e a y u n l e s s i t
l s wha t t h i s r i t ness to ld somebody .
THE COURT: Over ru led .
T H E W I T N E S S : I t i s t h e D o f P i n t e r v i e w w h i c h I h a v e
d o n e n a n y t i m e s .
O BY l {R . FLYHN: D i rec to r o f P rocess ing?
A Y e s . A n d w e t e l l t h e l n d i v i d u a l t h a t w e c a n
h a n d l e h l s c a s e ; w h a t e v e r l l l n e s s o r s i c l n e e s o r p r o b l e n h e
h a s w l t h h i s f a n t l y , l n f a c t , r h a t e v e r h e h a s , w e c a n h a n d l e
i r .
T h e n v e t e l l h i m t h a t h e r l l b e a u d l t e d b y a n
i n d l v i d u a l a n d h e e h o u l d f e e l f r e e t o d l s c u s s a n y t h i n g w i t h
t h a t i n d i v i d u a l . I t w i l l b e h e l d t o t a l l y c o n f i d e n t i a l . I n
t h e e a r l y ' 7 0 ' s w e r o u l d s a y - - w e w o u l d t e l l h i n n o b o d y
rou l .d ever aee i t , . We vou ldn I t even te l l h im about the
cs .
A Case euperv leor?
A Y e s , c a s e e u p e r v l e o r .
Th ings changed as d ls t r i c t a t to rneys and peop le
l l k e t h a t , s t a r t e d l o o k l n g i n t o u s .
I n t h e n i d d l e r 7 0 r s a n d t h e e a r l y r 7 0 r s w e v t e r e
to ld to te l l them tha t the CS wou ld look a t l t and the CS
would ho ld t t con f ldent ia l and nobody sees l t bu t them. '
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Then when we had nore lega l t roub les by the
m i d - r 7 O r s r i r € w e r e t o l d t h e n t h a t n o b o d y c o u l d a e e i t a n d
b e c a u s e w e w e r e a n a p p l i e d r e l i g l o u s p h i l o s o p h y , w h i c h w e r e
t h e e x a c t , w o r d s t o u s e , a n d i t r o u l d b e p r o t e c t e d a n d a o t h e y
u e r e t o f e e l f r e e t o d i s c u s s w h a t e v e r w a s n e e d e d .
0 N o v l , f o r t h e n o s t p a r t d i d a u d i t o r s o r p r e - c l e a r s
w h o c a m e i n k n o w t h a t t h e G u a r d i a n r s o f f i c e w a s c u l l i n q
f i l e s ?
A N o .
M R . H A R R I S T f ' 1 1 o b j e c t E o t h a t . T h a t c a l l s f o r a
c o n c l u s i o n .
T I IE COURT: To your knowledge; you ean answer tha t .
?HE WITI ' IESS: I know spec i f i ca l l y tha t we t r ied very
h a r d t o n a k e s u r e t h e y d i d n ' t k n o w . l t o s t a u d i t o r s d i d n ' t
k n o w .
0 BY l {R. FLYNN: Now, what were the pohrers w i tn in
t h e o r g a n i z a b i o n o f t h e G u a r d i a n ' s O f f i c e w i t h r e g a r d t o
g e t t i n g a c c e s s t , o p r e - c l e a r f o l d e r s ?
l ' l R . E A R R I S : A g a i n , I r I I o b j e c t , y o u r H o n o r r E S c a l l i n g
f o r a c o n c l u s i o n a t t h i s p o i n E .
THE COURT: Wel l , to the ex ten t you have knowledge o f
t h l s r y o u c a n a n s w e r , I f y o u d o n r t , y o u c a n a o s t a t e .
Persona l knowledge,
THE [ { I?NESST AI I r igh t . f have persona l knowledge
o f t h e G u a r d i a n ' s O f f i c e l n L a s V e g a s g o i n g o v e r a n d a s k i n g
for any fo lder tha t they want .ed . I t a l l depended on the
c l r c u m s t a n c e 6 .
I f i t uas a b rand new person, you probab ly
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w o u l d n ' t w a l k r l g h t i n o r e v e n g o t o t h e a u d i t o r s .
Y o u s e e , w e a r e t r a i n i n g a u d i t o r s a l s o . I f t h e
a u d i t o r s k n e w L h a E r r e w e r e g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e s e f o l d e r s , w e l I ,
t h e y w o u l d I e a v e .
W e a r e t e l l i n g t h e n t h a t e v e r y t h i n g i s s o w e
n i g h t h a v e t o w a i t u n t i l t h e e n d o f t h e d a y .
I f we had a D o f P who was programned enough
t o d o a n y t h i n g t h a t H e t o l d h e r , h l m o r h e r , l r e J u s t s a i d
g i v e u s a o a n d s o ' s f o l d e r e a n d t h e y g a v e i t t o u s .
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O llw rltb regard to PC foldcr drtr rctuelly
bcing urcd rgalnrt prople that raa cullcd tra thc lolderr
vithout their knovledge, did you have porronel knovlcdgc of
ruch Lnstanccs?
A Y e s ,
llR. BARRISc lour Bonor, I thtnk thlt thl.a rag ell
on dl.rcct. tlc didnrt crorl-exralnc thc rLtneer vlth roapect
to thr t .
TEE COURTT f,cll, thit la rabuttal. It rae done
very rkctchlly on dlrcct. I think ne l lrnlted lt to Juat
very brlcf rccitatl.on of tha felr grnG doctrlnc rnd hov
Lt rer eppllcd.
Thererl blen trrtlnony on rcbuttal to the
contrary, fo I guear ltfrorc of r full cxplanation.- t
l{R. EARRIS: tsell the problen lr, Your llonor, ln
rc.pcct to vhrt llr. Ieltcre knove in Lea Vcgas helnrt
rnythlng to do ulth Hr, t falterr harnrt rnything to do
rlth llr. Arrltrong end hagnf t anythlng to do uith any of the
ritnarceg that rcre harc ln rospect to the ltcng that rre
relcvant.
I"ct I r rdalt ru arc gettl.ng into a gltuation
vhcrc BunGrous Lnrtanccr, no doubt, will be testl.flcd to
by thia vltneas uhich I have aomc doubts ebout. At least,
tt 1r a 352able Lten at thls point.
TEE COUBT: ilell' I Frrldl feel that it ig circumstrntltl
cv ldcncc.
There ls algo the Guardlanra directlve that
l{ary Sue Hubbard authored. It Lr ln cvldcnce.
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At thlg polnt I vill rccclve ,.t. If uc Aet
too far rficld, thc eourt rry chrnge lte poeition. At eny
rater le t 's go fonard.
O BY HR. FLYNN: Do you havc rcturl knwlodgc,
t | r . l fa l terE, f i ra t o f the pol icy of thc Guard ianre of f lce
to cull PC fol,derr to gct lnfornatl.on to ure lt egalnet
people?
A YeB.
A And what ls that pollcy?
THE COURT: Of courge, th is ls up to t79.
lm. I IMRIS: Ies, Your tsonor , ,79 ln Las Vegls .
O BY l lR. ELYNN: This ls bctseen t70 and '79, -
l lr . l{alterr?
A Ycg .
O And vhat is the poltcy?
A The poltcy is that tf a person courea on our
I lae or a pcrson ls a threat to the organLzation and eupprccgi
tay ue dcclared a perlon rupprearlve, then we'd know from
L. Ron Hubbardrs technology that a rupprcegive has crimes,
hldden erines, that he lt probably connectcd wlth the
Gnenyr ct cetera. 5o ttrc firat place we look for crlsres
ir ln hls PC folder. t fe take those out.
l fe actually do three things to the folders.
l{c trke the crines out of the folders. ffc do a eurvey for
buttons to see what the lndividual is rcactivc to. tte
aleo nakc a l lst of termlnals that are fr leads or any
connection to authorl. ty, distr lct attorneys, psychlatr ists
of any klnd.
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O l{hen you ray 'a lurvey for buttontr ' rtrat do
you ncan by that?
A tfel l the lndlviduals rencnber ere co,nlng ln
for counscllng and they ere usually ln onotlonal tunoil ,
Gt cctera end there are certain thinga they are looking
to protect, they ar€ vcry vorrlcd about, end if a r i fe is
havlng narltal problcns but rhc'r hed an affair on the ride
end rhe tcl ls hcr auditor about l t , rel l we rould takc that
and put that doun, knovlng that if lhe ever went to a
larryer we could cal l hcr ln, and I travc part l .clpatcd pcrronall
ln thls, rhere ve rould tcl l the pcrron, r l fcl lr Dour you
don't uent to go to e lavyer bcceurc l f you vant to do thie,
rs r11l bc Alad to rue end rc vt l l bc glad to brlng your
f l ler out and ghow the publlc uhat typc of perron you are. '
If we ere lucky, havc nobody narrlcd to a
lavycr or conncctcd to a larryrer, the lverrge p€r;on would
lcavo end not cau3e u! any probllm, rnd then urually ue
didnrt do tnything tfter that.
O But thi.c lr how lt ras uged?
A leg .
O And you pcrsonally part lcipated in nunerous
ruch?
A Ycg .
O Crn you gl.ve the nanes of at lcaat one
lndtvldual who had hlc PC data taken to nevsptper!' the
1rcllce?
A I ui l l Jurt give you the lategt. I t wae thc
rceron I lcft Sclantology, Ernic Hartwell .
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He cane to ne when he fled the beae vttera
Hubbard was hlding out, and hc cane to na telllng ne that
Subbard was prychotlc and rcrcaning and that ba had thraatancd
hin and he rae afral.d for hie l l fe, end bel,ng a good
Scientologlst tt thc tile, I took hln by the hend dova to
the GuardLanre off ice and told two lndivlduale there'
Jack Gaye and Bruce Hanllton that thJ.s guy ls raying
rone things that arc gol.ng to gct u6 Ln a lot of troublc end
re are golng to hava a f lap.
And thcn tlplcally Jack Gaye and Bruce Hanilton
uent nuts thcmaclv€s and rtartcd thlnking he wat connected
to the cnemy and atartod thlnklng I vas connccted to
Hertvrll, end I kncw thcn uc ucrc in gcrl.oug troublc. I
cellcd Ardlc I'hrron in Iog Angclcr to gct hin up here.
Then Ardi€ uarron trlkcd to nc and thcy gtarted
thc opcretl,on on Bartvell, uhich res to take hls gtuff out
of the foldcr!. lhcy told thc pollcc lrrd the Revicu Journal
Ln Lre VcAra that hc vee t tnrr&rcr. Ardie told ne about that.
They uere getting Hartuell - - they had his buttong' ud to
be honest wlth yorr Ernl.crr buttons could be puehed very
cao1 ly .
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They had h ls bu t tons and tha t had Ard lc
becon ing ac t ing pre t , ty nu t ty rnd ecrean ing . And they
t re re record ing . They were record lng i t . And they wou ld
se i l t up so i t , wou ld look l l ke he r lag b lackna i l ing the
C h u r c h . A n d A r d i e H a s t e l l i n g n e i n a a i x - h o u r w a l k v e
t ,ook , t . ry ing go hand le ne , and I wae Jus t fed up to herc
r i t h r l l t h e c r i u e s a n d s t u f f a n d h e a r l n g t h i s h e a r i n g
about . L . Ron Hubbard , who I gave n ine years o f ny l t fe to
and a lot of noney --
I t o l d A r d i e l ' T h i s h a s g o L t a e t o p , A r d l € . I
E € a n w e a r e d o i n g t h i n g s . W e c a n e n d u p l n J a i l . '
The tu rn ing po in t rae Ard ie th rea t ,en lng nc ,
t h r c a t e n l n g t o k l l l n e ; t h r e a t e n i n g t h r E h e c o u l d h a n d l e n e ,
I aa ld - -
Hy house is about ten b locks f ron the po l l ce
depar tnent . I a t ,a r ted ra lk ing toward the po l i ce dcpar tnent ,
A r d i e s a i d l ' F o r e v e r y t h i n g y o u s a y r e ' l l g e t
ten o thers to Ea l t the oppos i te . '
He sa id , rBdd ie , L . Ron Hubbard ls no t go lng to
go doun because o f th ie . '
I e a i d r ' A r d i e , I t m g o i n g i o h a n d l e t h i s f r o n
t h e i n s i d e o r t , h e o u t s i d e . '
And tha t ras the tu rn ing po ln t , rhen Ard le l , {a r ln r
t h e h i g h e s t p u b l l c o f f i c i a l l n S c i e n t o l o g y , s b a r t c d f e a r l n g
for h lnee l f r E tar ted begg ing me lha t he ras go tng to g€ t ln
t roub le l e ta rbed te l l ing nre tha t he wou ld ge t hung and be
o n t , h e R P F . f c o u l d n r t b e l i e v e i ! , A r d i e H a r i n .
I - - f o r g e t a l l t h a t .
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The nex t day me and Beven o thers vent to the
F B I .
l l R , F L Y N N T N o f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
THE COURT: You nay c ross -exan lne .
l lR . I IARRIS : Thank you r Your Honor .
CROSS-EXAI.IINATION
BY I{R. HARRIS:
0 l l r . t fa l te rs r you bave tes t i f ied about how nany
t lnes 80 fa r ln var ious fo rums?
A Hhat do you ncan? I tes t l f led once in the IRS
ca6e vhere you re re the lawyer , y€a .
0 Y e s ,
A ?hen they pu l led ne ln to depos i t ions about . every
nont h .
O Y o u t e g t i f i e d i n C l e a r n a t e r ?
A Y e s .
O And you have -- at the t ine that you were ln
Las Vegas, you vere yo lun teer e ta f f r You a tY, a t the Ce lebr i ty
Cente r ?
A Y e 6 , I u a s .
O CS for four years?
A Y e s .
A As CS you nould get fo lders of people?
A Every day .
0 And you werenr t loca ted lns lde the bu l ld ing tha t
h o u s e d t h e C e l e b r i t y C e n t e r ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A Y e 8 , I w a 8 .
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0 Y o u h a d a n o f f i c e l n t h e r e ?
A Y e s .
0 D u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f t i n r e
B y t h e w d y r w h e n d i d C e l e b r l t y C e n t e r l t a r t ?
A ' 7 5 , 1 7 6 . I - - s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d t h e r e .
0 A n d w a s t h a t a p a r t o f l h e C h u r c h o f S c i e n t o l o g y
of Las Vegae?
A W e l l , n o w r d e g e t i n t o r y o u k n o w , w h a t l s
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O XGll, dld you - -
lfl vcrc undcr thcir dlrcctlon lf ln .rGcutivc
cenG ovcr or the Gurrdlen'e officc caD oycr. But yct F
nportcd to Celcbrlty Ccnter ln loa Angclcr.
O You rcportcd to CclGbrlty Cantcr ln lot Angclcr
A My rcnlor did.
O t{ell, vtro dld you rcport to?
A To Bctty llrrlcannl. yho uar thc CO.
O The @ of rhat?
A Cclebrl,ty Centcr of Lu Vcgls.
O And fron 1970 untl. l 1975 $tro you a rtaff
nnbcr of any organlretion?
A Do you &tn llkc I contnctcd rtaff?
O yGE.
A No.
O lou ucrc voluntcer ttrff?
t L E .
0 And uhrt organl,tatlon uar thet thet you utre
e volunt.Gr rtaft f,or?
A ||clt rt th. Lu VcAar organisatLon uaually
otf tnd on. lfbenevcr there raa troublc or they wsre havlng
problcnrr thcy rould call E ln and I yould hclp out,
O Thlc sl! on - -
A I couldnrt be on gtaff ra tn crccutivc ln e
callno. I couldnrt uork l{ houra a day. I couldnrt buy
ry rGrviccg.
A lou rqrc ln exccutLvc ln a caalno?
A Y G 8 .
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O And that ras fron 1970 to I9?5?
A That I res tn ixccutlvc ln a ceslno?
O yes .
A No , a l l . du r i ng ' 75 , t oo .
O And frora t75 to r79 uere you working ln
casinog?
A Y e g .
O In othcr rords, a l l dur lng the per lod r70
through t 79 you werc rorkl,ng Ln carinos?
A Yes, I yorkcd Ln thc caal.no during the day, Lf
I ura rorking, and et nlght f ucnt over thc CS foldcrs
or to do cthicr or to bandle vhatever ve needcd to handle.
O And durlng the t ine uere you elso a professional
pool playcr?
A At that t lner Do. f gave up playing ln - -
p layed the lar t tournanent around 160 - - f th ink 166.
No , ' 7O, r round 1970 .
a And rere you knovn ae Fast Bddie?
A A lot of pcople eaid that, yca.
0 And at thc t lnc that you got lnto ScientologYt
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lndlvidual that I had tralned ae a dealer, a 21 dealer in a
cagino. He wae try!,ng to naka loney for hir Scicntology
procerslng. When he cane back, I rtnt to hia nisrion vhlch
lagtcd ebout l ix nonths.
Then I rcnt over totlE Lea Vcaae Org
and took the Dlanctica course there.
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0 So you f l rs t go t in to Sc lenro logy by way o f a
n l e s l o n r u n b y ; r . l r e e d m a n ?
A Y e s .
0 A n d d u r l n g t h a t p e r l o d o f E l n e , d u r i n g t h a t
e l r -month per lod o f l i rne I t ,ake l t you had no contac t w l th
a n y o n e f r o n t h e G u a r d l a n f s O f f i c e ?
A N o .
0 And when you nenb to the Lag vegae organ iza t lon
hov long d ld you s t ry there be fore you had any contac t r i th
lnyone f ron the Guard ianre Of f i cc?
A W e l l , l t y a s v e r y e a r l y o n , v e r y e a r l y o n t h a t
f wag approached l f l re t , by Suean Reed.
A t lhat year uaa that?
A t { a 1 1 , I t d h a v e t o s a y l t r a s , 7 I , p o s s l b l y .
A In l97 l you Here approached by Susan Reed? D ld
s h € a s k y o u t o J o i n t h c G u a r d l a n r s o f f l c e ? y e e o r n o .
A S a y , J u e t , l l k e t h a t , n o .
A At Eol lc l ro int , , Hr. l la l tera, d id you becone a
ncnber o f Ehe s ta f f o f the Guard lanre o f f l ce in Las vegas?
t lR. PLYNNT Hel l - -
?EE HITHBSST I r l l te l l you Gxact ly what happened.
0 BY ftR. BAnRfSr ?ell me tf you becane a nenber
o f tbe s ta f f o f the Guard lanrg Of f l ce o f Las Vcgas,
l l r . l l a l te rg ,
TEE COUR?r Pald or volunt,eer?
l{R. RARRIS r Ei ther .
THE t { r rNESSr That l s a d i f f i cu l t gueat lon . r wou ld
Eay no . r d ldn f t have to do rha t they - - t f they aeked ne ,
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f w o u l d n ' t h a v e ! o d o t f t h e y a e k e d n e s o u r e L h i n g , n o .
0 L e t , n e a s k y o u t h l s : d u r i n g t h e t l m e t h a t y o u
w e r e v o l u n t e e r s t a f f a b t h e L a s V e g a s o r g a n i z a t l o n , r h i c h
w o u l d h a v e b e e n f r o m t h e p e r l o d o f 1 9 7 1 t h r o u g h r o u g h l y 1 9 7 5 ;
i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A S a y t h a t a g a i n ?
0 W e r e y o u a v o l u n t e e r s t a f f a t t h e L a s V e g a s
o r g a n i z a t i o n f r o m r o u g h l y r 7 l t h r o u g h t 7 5 ?
A f w o u l d n r t s a y l t l l k e t h a t r D o . B e c a u s e i t
s o u n d s l l k e I w a s o n v o l u n t e e r s t a f f d u r i n g a l l o f t h a t t i m e .
A n d f w a s n f t .
O What wou ld you 6ay the nunrber o f t ines a week
t h a t y o u w o u l d c o m e i n d u r i n g t h e p e r l o d 1 9 7 f t h r o u g h 1 9 7 5
uas to the Las Vegas organ iza t ion?
A O h , l n a n d o u L , I w o u l d b e i n e v e r y w e e k i
soneEimes every day .
A Hohf many hours wou ld you work as a vo lun teer
s t a f f f r o m 1 9 7 1 t h r o u g h t 7 5 a v e r a g e p e r w e e k ?
A By 'h rork on s ta f f '
A Y e s . Y o u w e r e a v o l u n L e e r s t a f f .
THE WITNESST I have to exp la in someth lng . He knows
w h y . I r a s l i s t e d l n ' 7 1 a 6 a n l n t e l . l l g e n c e a g e n t t o o p e r a t e
outs lde o f the sbaf f . I was no t to be known to the s ta f f
o r to anyone thab I was an ln te l l igence agent . That i s the
reason I s igned no cont rac t .
So you know tha t f cou ld noL e ign any cont rac ts
or show anybody f was on a ta f f .
0 BY MR. HARRIS: D id your never the less , work in
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t h e L a e V e g a s o r g a n i z a t l o n a s a C S d u r i n g ] 9 7 1 t h r o u g h ' 7 5 ?
A N o .
a N e v e r r 1 8 t h a E r l g h t ?
A A s a C S , n o . I w a s n r t a C S .
A A l l r i g h t . W e r e y o u a n a u d l t o r l n t h e L a s V e g a s
o r g a n l z a t i o n f r o u r r 7 1 t o r 7 5 o n a v o l u n t a r y b a s i s ?
A J u s t v e r y r a r e l y . V e r y r a r e l y .
A Y o u h a d a f i e l d P r a c t i c e ; l s t h a ! c o r r e c t ?
A R i g h t .
0 S o y o u o p e r a t e d o u t o f y o u r h o u s e r i 8 t h a t
c o r r e c t ?
A r i g h t .
0 And wh i le opera t ing ou t o f your house you uere
e s s e n t i a l l y a n a u d i t o r ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A R i g h t .
O T h e p u b l i c t h a t y o u d e a l t w i t h w e r e n o t t h e
pub l lc u i th ln the Las Vegas organ iza t , ion fo r serv ice t
r i g h t ?
A N o t n e c e a s a r l l y , n o .
t {y Job was to audi t peop}e for Ehem to go t ,o
the Las Vegas Org .
A When they had completed a certain level of
aud i t ing a t your house, then you wou ld send then to the
L a s V e g a s o r g a n l z a t i o n ; r l g h t ?
A I f they needed soneth ing f ro ro there , yes .
O So lneofar aa the prac t ice o f the reg ls t ra r a t
the Lae Vegas organ lza t lon , d id you ho ld tha t pos t?
A At the Las Vegas Org?
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O Y e s .
A N o ; a t t h e C e l e b r i t y C e n t e r .
0 Y o u h e l d t h e p o s t o f r e g i s t r a r a t t h e C e l e b r i t y
C e n t e r ?
A I f y o u p u t l t a s ' h o l d t h e p o s t r r I c o u l d n o t .
f c o u l d n o t h o l d a n y p o s t a f t e r ' 7 L , a f t e r b e i n g e o n t a c E e d
a n d s e t u p a s a n i n t e l l l g e n c e a g e n t . I c o u l d n o t h o l d a n y
p o E L l n t h e O r g . T h a t v a s n y i n s t r u c t i o n s .
0 And you uere no t to be even known to the
o r g a n l z a t l o n r i E t h a t w h a t y o u s a i d ?
A I cou ld be known and he lp ln any way, bu t I was
t o b e a v a i l a b l e f o r o t h e r t h i n g s .
O N o w , w h e n y o u n e r e a r e g i s t r a r a t t h e C e l e b r i t y
Center in Las Vegas when was tha t?
A I d l d r e g g i n g o f f a n d o n a l l t , h e t i n e I w a s
t h e r e .
a When you say o f f and on a l l the t lme you were
t h e r e , y o u r e r e t h e r e o n a d a l l y b a s l s ?
A Y e s .
A N o w , t h l s l s f r o m t 7 5 t o t 7 9 7
A Approx i rna te ly those da tes .
O D ld you vo lunLeer fo r any execut ive pos i t ions
w i t h i n t h e C e l e b r l t y C e n t e r ?
A N o .
0 H a d y o u v o l u n t e e r e d f o r a n y e x e c u t i v e p o s l t i o n s
l n t h e L a s V e g a s o r g a n l z a b i o n ?
A N o .
O I bhought you Jus t to ld the Cour t tha t you had
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h e l d e v e r y p o s b i n t h e o r g a n l z a t l o n ?
A Do you nant ne to e rp la in ib?
A D i d y o u t . e l l E h e C o u r t t i r a t ?
A Y e s . A n d i t i s t r u e .
a D i d y o u h o l d t h e p o s i t i o n o f e x e c u t i v e d i r e c L o r ?
A D u r i n g t i m e s w h e n t h e e x e c u t i v e d i r e c t o r w a s
e i t h e r b l o w n o r b e i n g h a n d l e d b y t h e G u a r d i a n , e O f f i c e , y e 6 .
0 A b t h e C e l e b r i t y C e n t , e r ?
A Y e s .
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A In factr there rar a comrndlng officcr not en
rxecutivc dircctor at the Celebrity Ccnterl irnft that r ight,
l ir . t lalters?
A No i.t uas rn cxccutlve dlrcctort Botty Haricamql
O In your dlrect tcstinony didnrt you state
that ehe vas the CO?
A Well, lhe was 6ea Otg, ro lhe had a Sca Org
tit lc of Conmanding Off icer.
0 And ahe didnrt heve the t l t le of crccutive
di rcctor l ign ' t that r lght?
A Yes, rhe did. ?hat ir vhat re told the
publlc rhe uas cxecutl.ve director. I f ue told them it waa
Comanding Officer. they would vonder vhcther ue wrarc runnlng
I Nevy.
TEE COURT: That ie rather a dry dock, Laa Vegas.
TBE iITNESST Thet 1r one of our problems re had ln
the rlddle of the dcrcrt. Icrd bave pcople dreaeed up in
Navy outf l tsr !o r l thln the organl.zation re cal led her
Connanding Officer, but rnybody ualklng in uerd heve to say
cxecutive director.
O BY ltR. HARRIS: l,lr. HaIterB, at the tlne that
you hcld Gvery poat Ln the organl.zatlon at Celebrlty Center,
ycra you doing this on a part-tine bagis?
A YGE.
A And you rould fitl ln wherever ncededl is
that corrcct?
A Yeah, vhenever therc yas - - you ree ue had
rtaff that rould cone in, that vould be brand new. tlould
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ftnd out rtrat ue rere dolng end leava or theyrd get blosn
off bccau.G of sevcre rthLcrr ot thcy rould Jurt heva
cnotl.onal brcakdowna and lelve, end aincc - - you rrc talhlng
about very few people, Bctty and I rould do rhatcver lt var
to kcep lt golng. You Juat do whrtcyer you heve to do to kcep
the l lne goingr 80 lf you have to rupcrvl,ecr ]|ou do Lt.
A And durlng thie perlod of tine rhen you ucre
dolng utratever you could, I teke lt you rere a dcdicetcd
Eclcntologlstl 1g that correct?
A Y e s .
O And rt thc tfuuc that you uere dolng all you
could rnd holding ell thcrc poatr ln the organirationr 1zou
lcrc ln your ovn lind lytng to thc pcople rho cane in?
A
ocorrcct?
A
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A
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At the tine, no.
You bellevcd in vhat you uere doing; is that
AbeoluteIy.
Total ly?
Hhet do you noan by 'totally'?
tfell you nrl.&r"t have done lt unlegs you
total ly bellcvcd lt l r lght?
A Not that rinplc. I nean, if they agked ne to-
I would tell an lndivl,dual that ue could cure any lll.neeg he
ofhed bccrurG rr had found the aingle .ourcg all ebcrratlon.
I rouldnrt kill Peulette Coopcr if thcy agked m, to you
canrt ray total. I rouldnrt valk off thc Enpirc Statc
Building lf thcy lgked re.
O let n uk you thirr Did you at the tlrc that
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you uErs talklng to there peoprc yho hrd Jurt cons inLo
scientologyr dld you belleve rhat you uerc tclling then?
A yeg.
o Eo you veren I t r.n your own nind rying to then
at thc tlne that you talked to thenl lr that corrcct?
t{R. fLIilN: About vhat? ObJection, your Eonor.
THE couRT: tJell r wil l gustain the obJection. rt
ray bc a littlc too broad.
O BY lm. HARRIS: you eere auare of policy ln
the Lae vegas organiratl.on that you do not tell rnyone thrt
you could curc thelr i l lness; isnrt that correct, Hr. l{altcrr?
A ?here it poltcy that srye that,
A But you ignored it; lc that rlght?
A tfe all dld. tfc rcre told to ignore Lt.
Iou tee, rhrn re have lcgal problcns and
a pollcy corcE out not to do eonrcthlng, then that lcrna that
vc erc not ruppoecd to ray it Ln that yalt but re are ruppoaed
to rtlll gct this p€rlon to underetand that rre can handle
rny probren or lllneec he hes. Every reg operated ltke
thlt,
A Can you tell !€ rny peraon tbat you perronally
reggcd? |
tflR. FLt-ltN: Celebrity or any pereon?
A BI HR. HARRIST Any pGrson. GLvc lc one.
A That f rcaged?
O IeB.
A You yant eelebrl.tlcg? tfhat do you yant?
A At the Celabrity Center.
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A I pcraonally handled Lou Rarla.
O You regged Lou Raylsl le that eorrcct?
A Y€.h, me and Betty did.
O And did you tell t'tr. Ravla that you eould
curc aone l l lnegs that he had, tf lr . t falters?
A No, becauee hc didn,t have an Ll lnese.
0 Now tell Ee any pcrson that you regged at
the celebrity centcr, give ne the name of r pergon uho you
raid you could cure hlg i l lncrc?
A Oh, I cenrt rglcnber rtrat I raid to cach
P€rton.
O Can you rucnbcr .ny pGraon, ltr. lfalter:, thrt
you told you eould curc hir lllncrr yhile you vEre
voluntccrlng ea e rcgirtnr rt thc Cclcbrity Ccntcr?
A I rould have to go beck to the filce lt CC.
O You cenft tcll nc ar you rit thcre nov?
A I htndlcd hundrcdc. Until I go brck - -
O Givc nG one of thcn, llr. Ialtcrs, Juat one.
A Lct ne thlnk of toncbody back et CC.
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I have forgotten the people ye had r t - - you havc
a l i s t o f the peop le a t CC.
A H r . l { a l t e r s , t e l l m e a n y p e r s o n t h a t y o u r e g g e d
and t .o ld Lhera tha t , you cou ld take care o f the i r s ickness ,
l l l n e s s t o t a b e r r a t , l o n s i o n e p e r s o n .
A B y n a n e , I c a n f t .
A Y o u c a n ' t ?
A Nor no [ by name.
O A n d t h i e E t h i c s o f f i c e r p o s e t h a t y o u t o o k o n
a v o l u n t , a r y b a e i s , H a s t h l s a t t h e C e l e b r l t y C e n t e r ?
A Y e s .
0 And as the Eth ice o f f i cer a t the Las Vogas
Celebr i ty Center can you bel l me anyone that you gave an
Eth ics hand l ing to?
A L e t r s s e e . S h e i L a R o b i n , a p u b l i c p e r e o n .
A Has tha t because she was th rea ten ing to leave
the organ lza t ion tha t you gave her an Eth ics hand l lng?
A Y e s .
0 Give me anot,her one.
A f rene l rber do ing Eth ics r * i th le t rs seer Dave
H a m l l t , o n . H e l s o n g t a f f l a t i I I t h e r e , I t , h i n k .
A He was th rea ten ing to leave the organ iza t lon and
you gave h lm an Eth ics hand l lng ; r igh t?
A N o . H i s u a e a l i t t l e b i t d i f f e r e n t .
A And te l l me spec i f l ca l l y , t { f , . t {a l te ra , a6 th is
GO person, g lve me the name o f a f i le tha t you per rona l l y
cu l led c r lmes ou t , o f?
A K a t h y C a d e ; R e e d L i n t o n ; T r o y B a r b e r g l a s l
r4-2 1
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1 4 L 2
Dick Hafner I Karen Hafner ; Bob tsarvey . That ie more than
crne.
0 A n d d u r l n g w h a t p e r l o d o f t l m e d l d y o u d o t h i s ?
A S o m e w h e r e l n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e r 7 0 t s , E o n e i n
t h e e a r l y a n d s o m e l n t h e m i d d l e r 7 0 t s .
0 Wi th respec t to each o f thege peop le you wro t ,e
d o w n t h e i r c r l r n e s a s d i s c l o s e d l n t h e i r p C f o l d e r s , l s t h a t
r i g h t ?
A s o m e . I d i d n r t d o i t , a l l . S o m e I w o u l d l e t
l t a d d i e d o i t .
a I r n t a l k i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u p e r s o n a l l y d i d ,
1 .1R. FLYNN: I f he was present w i th aomeone e lae , your
Honor
l lR . HARRIS: l {y ques t ions are d i rec ted to what he
p e r s o n a l l y d i d , Y o u r H o n o r .
TEE WITI ' IESS : Al l r ight .
0 BY l , tR. HARRIS: Dld you wri te down in your oun
w r i t i n g t h e i r c r i n e e ?
A Y e s .
0 A n d w h a t d i d y o u d o w i t h t h a t w r i t i n g r
A I wou ld g lve l t to one I gave to Chuck Reeee,
r h o w a s I n t e l .
0 Whose PC fo lder waa tha t?
A God, i s t t hard to remenber back then. I
th ink l t l s hard to say wh lch one I gave to Chuck and
rh ich one I gave to l {add ie , I t depends on what the f lack
waa a t the t ime.
0 Which one d id you g ive to Chuek?
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A f c o u l d n ' t d e f i n i t e l y s a y .
A W h i c h o n e d i d y o u g i v e t o M a d d i e ?
A T h a t i s w h y f c a n r t s a y . I d o n r t k n o w w h i c h o n e
I g a v e t o e i t h e r o n e . B u t w e d i d t t t o g e t h e r . I m e a n i t
i s
0 W h e n y o u w r o t e t h e s e c r l n e s d o w n o n i n d i v i d u a l s
f r o n t h e P C f o l d e r s r y o u w o u l d g i v e t h e m t o C h u c k o r H a d d i e
i n e a c h i n s t a n c e ?
A Y e s . I w o u l d u s u a l l y J u s t l e a v e t h e m t h e r e .
? h e y k e p t , a l l t h e f o l d e r s .
A N o w , d i d y o u p e r s o n a l l y o n a n y o f t h e s e P C
f o l d e r s ' c r i m e s t h a t y o u c u l l e d r 9 0 t o t h e p e r s o n w h o s e
c r i m e s y o u h a d c u l l e d ?
A D l d I ?
A Y e s ; d i d y o u .
A N o . I d i d n r t h a n d l e t h a t .
A Y o u d l d n r t g o t o e n y l n d i v i d u a l a n d t h r e a t e n t h e
i n d l v l d u a l w i t h t h e c r i m e s r i E t h a t c o r r e c L ?
A N o . I - -
0 A n d y o u p e r s o n a l l y p a r t i c i p a t e d t n c r l n e s
y o u r s e l f r i 6 t h a t r l g h t ?
A y e s .
O And you go t immuni ty f rom the FBI so tha t you
c o u l d t e l l t h e m a b o u t a l l t h e c r l m e s w l t h l n w h i c h y o u h a d
p a r t i c l p a b e d r l E t h a t r i g h t ?
A I t h i n k B o r y e s .
A A n d w i t h o u t g o i n g l n t o t h e s p e c i f i c s r h o w m a n y
c r i m e s d i d y o u E e I l t h e F B I y o u h a d p a r t i c i p a t e d i n p r i o r
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44L4
to your ge t t ing l runun i ty?
A W e l I , b y t a l k i n g t o t h e r n a b o u t c r i m e e , t h e y b r o k e
i t u p .
O Give me the number tha l you to ld thern .
A C r i n e s
THE COURT: He Jus t
T H E W I T N E S S : I d i d n ' t t e l l t h e m a n u m b e r .
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t r 1 5
O BI t{R. HAnRI8r lou told thcn e rcrlce of
crlncr, rnd you hrvc an ldra ln your ntnd rbout how lany
that uttt donrt you?
A Ycalr. tf I looh rt tt llhc th.te iGrhl L
could f lgure i t out .
O Okey. Dr.d you glvc e yrl,ttcn rtatcnnt to th€
tBI tftcr fou got tnrnlty?
A f donrt thlnk !0r
A Did you trlk rlth FBI .g.rrar yhllc r ttanogrepbe
rla prefrnt?
A l{o, I bcll.ovc thcrc rar tuo FBI rcn ln the rooo.
ft rer et FBI beadqurrttrr 1n Lag Vcgal.
O Dld you rubrqucntly rcc a rcport tbrt clthcr
of tb.rc fBI rgcntr ude rhich you rgrrcd rith?
A ! to, r d ldnrt lce l t .
O Dld you rGG ths& vrltl,ng aotct?
A I dontt rGcnber. It rel vcry tnuaatic at thc
t ine.
A Did you rppear before r Judge to gst inraunlty?
A No.
O Hcre you told by eooc US tttorncy that you
hrd lnunity?
A Hot Ln thet acn3e, nG).
O Dld you.v.r gct rny yrlttcn ptocc of prpcr
thet rald, 'You lrc luunc frour pro.Gcutton for rrl thorc
crincr you c@t ttGd' ?
A llo.
O 8o rt you rlt thcro nor, ytrat rrc you rclylng
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14L6
A r ara not cvc' rorr icd about i t . r vrlr tcrr
the t ru th, rnd i f that is what i t takes.
o Al l r lght . specl f ica l ly then what ls the f l r r t
crl .me that you conmitted?
A The f i rs t?
0 The f l r s t .
THE couRTr Are ue talking about a clvil crine or
aonrthtng that is contrary to the laws of the state or
unlted states or are lrre talklng about conething wlthln
Scientolo,gy?
xR- HARRTS: r an ta lk ing about a} l o f the sr l6ss,
Your Honor, of thls State so far as he knew and the
Fedcral Goverament so far as he knew.
Ir{R- FLYH}J: What he undorstaDds a crlme to be,
lncruding eonsplracy to coruit uurder, your Eonor?
THE coIlRT: well r aagurne that uG are talking about
a trrnEaction of e part icurer nomenclature. rt nlght vary
frosr ftrta to ebate or jurisdict ion to Jurlsdict ion, and
we lre not golng to rpend our l ives on this. Just l tart
end tal l ua a fer and then anErer the questton.
THE HITNESST AlI r ight. Give you an exarnple.
Chuck Reese and f and Haddy R6ese vent to
st. Rose of t l ,na Hosprtal in Henderson becausc ttrrough
rone of their intcr they had found that they were going to
hold r ltontal Hearth Aesoclation mecting there and re
pranted a tape recordilg device underneath the table.
O Did you do that personally?
A Yeg .
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t { 1 7
O You rent l.nto this location and you planted r
tape recorder underneath the table?
A R i g h r .
0 All r ightl and did you record the convcrsation
that occurred there?
A Oh, f am 6ure I drd.
A Hell, did you get a tape of the converration?
A I rrtched the t.pc bcing trenterl.bed by
chuck Recce to bG iGnt to ros Aageles to the Guard.ian. a
o f f i c e .
a Dld you J,irten to thc tepe?
A Ho re lcft the roon.
O Did you go back lnd retrieve the tape
recorder?
A No, that y lsn, t ny Job.
O you Juat lcft l t there?
A lcah.
a So far tB you knor, it Lg ctill tbere?
A As far ar I know, no.
0 All right, did you retriave the tape from
the tape rccorder?
A No, I bel ieve Chuck Reeae did.
A When you ray you believe Chuck Reeee did,
did you ree hl.n do lt?
A No, I part icipetcd ln discucsione of hin
tel l ing how he handlcd tbe situatlon.
0 Now, when you uent in there to plant the
tape recordcr, did you plck a lock to do it?
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{ r l 8
A N o .
O Was tbe place open?
A YeB.
O And you valked into the roon vhcrc you thought
thie ras gol.ng to happen and you put r tape rccordcr
underneath the table; r ight?
A Y e E .
O So what happenad to the tepe so fer ra you
knov?
A As far a8 I know, Chuck Reese typed it up.
They rent to US GO uith the data to be aent to Flag and
the Hubbarde for cvaluation.
O Now tbir ir rorneLhing that you obrerved on
the routing?
A I uasn ' t l tanding behind h im. I an l ia ten ing
to hi.n rnd l{addy talk ebout yhat they needed to do.
0 You dldn't have anythlng to do rs far as
rending the tra,nrcrlpt anyplace I rlght?
A That 1r r ight.
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{ { I 9
A Hhat ls the nert - - by the uay, did you know
t ihe ther o r no t i t Has aga ins t the law to do yhat you d ld a t
tha t t ine?
A N o , I d i d n f t .
0 A l1 r igh t . Hhat i s the nex t c r i rne tha t , you
conu l i t ted , Ht , l {a ILers?
A h le l l , the nex t one r can t ,h ink o f le s i t t ing and
par t i c ipa t lng in d iscuss lon - - Bruce Rayr rono and Madd ie Rccre
c a ] ] e o u e i n t o t h e G u a r d i a n r s o f f i c e . A n d H a d d i e R e e s e - -
susan Reed, t ' l add ie Reese, and ts ruce Raynond ca l led ne ln to
t h e G u a r d i a n r s o f f i c e a n d e a i d t h e y H e r e e t l l r h y s t , c r i c a l
about PauIeELe Cooper and her book .
Ano Bruce Raynond was s ta r t lng to te t l rne about ,' rou are f ron New rork , Edd ie . And you know NeH ygrk p re t ty
H e l , . l . '
I e a i d , . y e g . .
And Susan uas g iv ing ne the th ing aga in about
how lurportant i t is to go clear and to help destroy the
enenr ies thaL vere ou t to ge t i tubbard and tha t vare lead ing
in a d i rec t ion . And Pau le l te cooper rs book nus t be c topped
at any coaL, eoneth ing dee igned to Srernanent ry hand le her .
r dontt know i f i t uas poison or eonrething, that ghe rrould
be done away wibh. And leading in a direct ion that r rould
posa ib ly go there .
0 And did you do t ,haL?
A
aA
lJo.
Iou dec l i ned?
I t i s no t t ha t , e inp le .
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4420
0 B u t y o u d i d n r E g o a n d p o i e o n P a u l e t t , e C o o p e r l
d i d y o u ?
A N o , I d i d n r t .
O And you saw Pau le t te Cooper down a t C learwater
jus t las t l , lay?
A Y e e , I d i d .
0 S h e i s 8 t , i l l a l i v e a n d Y e I l ?
A And I was anazed.
A W h a t i s t h e n e x t c r i m e t h a t y o u c o m m i t t e d ,
f , l r . l {a l te rs?
A A l t r igh t . Then ue had a Dr . O I Gor rnan t
D r . w i l l l a m o t c o r m a n , h e a d o f t h e P s y c h i a t r i c A s s o c i a t i o n
l n L a s V e g a s .
Someth ing had cone f rom Los Ange les to Las Vegae
t h a t t h e r e w a s a b i g c o n s p i r a e y t h a t t h e P s y c h i a t r i c
A s s o c l a t l o n w a s c o n n e c t e d w l t h ' e i t h e r A M A a n d I n t e r P o l a n d
tha t they wanted ne to go in end ac t as a pa t ien t .
a W h o l s ' t h e y ' ?
A S u s a n a n d l t a d d i e , I t h l n k , w e r e i n t h e r o o m .
0 Susan and Hadd ie had a eonversa t ion w i th you in
vh ich they asked you to do soneth ing w i th respec t to
D r . O r G o r n a n ?
A Y E S .
O Did you see any orders in connect ion w l th tha t?
A T h e y h a d a o P S i n S u s a n r e h a n d s .
O Dtd you ac tua l l y look a t l t , to de tern lne uhaL
you were supposed to do?
A N o . T h a Y t o l d n e .
5 - 3
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442 I
O When you say they to ld your uas there loneone
c p e c i f i c a l l y w h o t o l d y o u w h a t t o d o ?
A S u s a n a n d H a d d i e .
0 B o t h o f t h e m s i n u l t a n e o u s l y ?
A Y e s , s l t t l n g t h e r e a n d h a v l n g a d l s c u s s i o n o n
w h a t t h e y u a n t e d m e t o d o .
0 And pursuant , to what they wanted you to dor you
d i d d o s o m e t h i n g ?
A Y e s .
A And what d id you do?
A I went over to Dr . l { i l l l am O I Gorman I s p lace ;
He knew rhere i t Haa because chuck Reese had been fo l low ing
h i n f o r w e e k s t r y i n g t o p l a n t a g i r l o n h i m .
S o C h u c k d r o v e m e o v e r ; s h o w e d m e h i s o f f i c e .
I w e n t i n t h e r e a n d I s a w t h e s e c r e t a r y .
I s a i d , ' I w a n t b o s e e D r . O ' G o r n a n . .
I w e n t i n t o D r . O ' G o r m a n . H e s t a r b e d t a l k i n g
to ne and ny th ing was supposed to be tha t f wanted to f ind
out about poss ib ly ge t t ing aome he lp and tha t I had been
bothered by a bunch o f d i f fe ren t g roups . And r was to nent ion
E o m e d i f f e r e n t g r o u p s .
A D id you nent ion those groups to Dr . OrGorman?
A I remenber exac t ly .
A Do you rernember the conversat lon that you had
w i t h D r . O ' G o r m a n ?
A In - - you know, genera l l y , yes .
0 D ld you a t tempt to ge t t rea tnent f rom
D r . O t G o r m a n ?
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4422
A I t d i d n r t g o i n t h a t d i r e c t i o n .
0 D l d y o u t a p e r e c o r d y o u r m e e t i n g r t t h t h e
d o c l o r ?
A Y e s , f d l d .
0 A n d t h a b r d a s y o u r t a p e r e c o r d e r t h a t u a s u s e d l
l s t h a t r i g h t ?
A Y e s .
O A n d w h a t d i d y o u d o w l t h L h e t a p e ?
A I b r o u g h t i t b a c k t o t t a d d i e , C h u c k , a n d S u e a n ,
I t h i n k .
A n d t h e n t h e n e x t d a y , t h e n e x t f e w d a y e , I w o u l d
g o i n a n d l i s t e n t o w h a t
A W h a t b h e t a p e s a i d ?
A N o . I w o u l d l i s t e n t o w h a t t h e y h a d e i t h e r d o n e
w i t h l E o r w h a b t h e y h a d p l a n n e d t o d o w i t h i t .
0 l {e re you aware a t the t ime tha t you went , in to
t h e d o c t o r r s o f f i c e w i L h a e a p e r e c o r d e r o n t h a t i t n a s
aga ins t the law in Las vegas - - s t r i ke tha t in Hevada to
t a p e r e c o r d s u c h a c o n v e r s a t i o n ?
A I n e v e r e v e n t h o u g h t o f i t . I w a s w i l l i n g t o
d o w h a t e v e r i t t o o k t o p r o t e c t u s a g a i n s L t h e e n e m l e s . r
d i d n r t t h i n k o f i t .
MR. HARRIS : l r l ay we take a b reak , you r Honor .
T H E C O U R T : W e f l l t a k e 1 5 m i n u t e s .
( R e c e s s . )
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4123
THB COURT: AII r lght, in thc caaG on tr ial lct the
rccord rcf lcct that counccl erc prcrcnt.
The ritnrrc haa rctrken thc ltanrd. Just rtatG
your Drrne again for thc rocord, rlr. you arc rtlll undGr
oath.
THE HITNESS: Edward t{alterl .
THE COURTT lou nry contl,nue, ltr. Errrls.
t{R. FARRIST thank your your Bonor.
O tor, Hr. Haltcrrr thlt tape thet you radc of
Dr. o'Gornan, did you pcreonarty to go orGoruan and
thrcatcn to blecklrll hin ylth lt?
A Dld I? t |o.
o lrou vhat cthice and Jurtr,ce couree drd you
trko?
A I took rthlcr cour.€ at Lar Vegll .
A Artd uhrt ras the nanc of thrt?
A At that trne rt vas calred Bthr.cr H.t. Then
rn Ethlc! Hat, end thrn en Ethic8 Course.
A The Bthlcr Hat, yrg thet, the hat of rn Gthica
of f lcor?
A ycg.
O And you conplctcd thatl lg that correct?
A yG8 .
A And thrn you took an ethlca eour.Gl vlrcrc
rrt that?
A At CGlGbrlty Ccntar I dtd an othlcr coursc.
O Calebrity Ccntcr, Lat Vogae?
A Yc! .
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ta2a
A And how long did that course trke?
A t{erl, rith ne e fcu rcekr beceure r rae thcreet n lght .
O And f take lt thrt you prr.cd thc courre
luccesg fu l l y?
A Y E E .
0 lny othcr cthice courrea thet you took?
A The cthics part of thG crr38 g. Tbcre ir rncthics cection on thc ethrce rnd Juctice ry3tcms of
Scientology on the Class g courre.
o And thc nryn€ of the courae that rae the cthics
courrG that you took tt Celebrlty Centcr yas vhat?
A r forget. r forgct thc nene of it at the
tlnc.
a And r teke it then ae thle vorunteer ethicg
off l .cer, you daclared peopte; r ight?
A No .
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A lou nGver dec la red anybody aa a vo lun tecr E th lcc
O f f i c e r ?
A N o .
A D ld you go persona l ly to any dec la red pcrson and
t h r e a t e n t h e m w i t h t h e d a t a f r o m t h e i r p C f i l e ?
A l te persona l ly?
A Y e E .
A N o .
A D ld you go to any dec la red peraon and conn l t sone
of fense agatnsb thennr yor pereona l ly?
A N o .
a Y o u d l d n r t a t r l k e t h a t ,
D ld you have a l i s t o f peop le who were dec la red
tha t , you had w lLh you a t any t lne ln Lag Vegas?
A l e s . T h e r e w a s a l w a y s a c u r r e n t l i s t o f S p r e ,
y e s .
A Can you te l l ne d ld you car ry th ls l l s t on your
PCTSOn?
A N o .
O D id you have l t a t , you r house?
A I t , h lnk I have had one o r two a t t he house ,
y e s ,
A A n d , ! : r . l l a l t e r s , I t a k e i t o n t h l s O t G o r m a n
tape you cane back to the organ iza t lon and you t ,o ld . l l the
pub l ic and the a t ,a f f about Hhat you had done, l s ehat
c o r r e c t ?
A No. f t was des lgned no t to te l l the pub l ic ,
s t a f f . T h e y w o u l d l e a v e .
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0 S o y o u t o l d n o p u b l i c ; t h a t i s , p u b l l c
s c i e n t o l o g i s t s w h o w e r e t h e r e a n d y o u t o L d n o n e o f t h e s t a f f l
i s t .ha t cor recL ?
A G e n e r a l s t a f f ?
O T h a t r s r i g h t .
A l io .
0 N o w , i n t h e s e E t h i c s h a n d l i n g s t h a t y o u d i d a s
a v o l . u n t e e r E t h i c s o f f i c e r d i d y o u h a v e t h e p u r p o s e w h e n
d o i n g t h e s e h a n d l i n g s s i n p l y t o p r o t e c t t h e o r g a n i z a t . l o n ?
A A s a s o l e r e a s o n ?
0 Y e E .
A N o .
0 D id you have a t t he t i r ne tha t you Here do ing
these E th i cs hand l l ngs an i dea tha t t he pe rson cou ld be
h e l p e d b y y o u r E t h i c s h a n d l i n g ?
A Y e s . I b e l i e v e d t h a t , y e s .
a A n d l n s o f a r a s y o u r b e l i e f a b t h e t i m e i t h r a s
t h e b e l i e f t h a t y o u n e r e g o i n g t o m a k e t h e s e p e o p l e n o r e
a b l e a n d b e t t e r ; i s t h a ! c o r r e c t ?
A W e I l , i f s o m e b o d y i s f l a p p i n g , c a u s i n g t r o u b l e ,
o r j us t sonebody l n E th i cs?
A Le t t s d i v ide the rn i n to two c lasses , t he ones tha t
w e r e n ' t f l a p p i n g ; y o u w e r e u s i n g a S c i e n t o l o g y E t h i c s
s y s t e m l n o r d e r t o h e l p t h e n ; i s t h a t c o r r e c E ?
A H e I p t h e n r e m a i n a S c i e n t o l o g i s t r y € 8 .
a A n d h e l p t h e n a s i n d i v i d u a l s ; r i g h t ?
A Y e s .
0 And those tha t were f lapp ing , as you a iy r your
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O S o y o u t o l d n o p u b l i c ; t h a t i e , p u b l i c
S c i e n t o l o g i s t s w h o w e r e t h e r e a n d y o u t o l d n o n e o f t h e s t a f f l
i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A G e n e r a l s t a f f ?
0 T h a t r s r i g h t .
A l io .
0 N o w , i n t h e s e E t h i c s h a n d l i n g s t h a t y o u d i d a E
a v o l u n t e e r E t h i c s o f f i c e r d i d y o u h a v e t h e p u r p o s e w h e n
d o i n g t h e s e h a n d l i n g s s i m p l y t o p r o t e c t t h e o r g a n i z a t l o n ?
A A s a s o l e r e a s o n ?
A Y e 6 .
A N o .
A D i d y o u h a v e a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u H e r e d o i n g
t h e s e E t h i c s h a n d l l n g s a n i d e a t h a t t h e p e r s o n c o u l d b e
h e l p e d b y y o u r E t h i c s h a n d l i n g ?
A Y e s . I b e l i e v e d t h a t , y e s .
a And lnso fa r as you r be l i e f a t , t he l ime i t h ras
the be l i e f t ha t you were go ing to make these peop le no re
a b l e a n d b e t t e r ; i s E h a t c o r r e c t ?
A H e l . l , i f s o n e b o d y i s f l a p p i n g , c a u s i n g t r o u b l e ,
o r j us t somebody l n E th i cs?
A L e t t s d i v i d e t h e r e i n t o t w o c l a s s e s r t h e o n e s t h a t
H e r e n ' t f l a p p i n g ; y o u w e r e u s i n g a S c i e n t o l o g y E t h i c s
s y s t e m l n o r d e r l o h e l p t h e n r i s t h a t c o r r e c B ?
A H e I p t h e n r e m a i n a S c i e n t o l o g i s t r y € 8 .
a A n d h e l p t h e n i a s i n d i v i d u a l s r r i g h t ?
A Y e E .
A And those tha t were f lapp ing , a6 you aayr your
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purpose i n g i v ing then an E th i cs hand l i ng was to keep then
i n t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n , a o t h e y w o u l d n r t f l a p r i E t h a t , r t g h t ?
A N o . I t w a s m o r e t h a n t h a t . .
A Wha t was the domin r i l t pu rpose o f g l v ing them an
E t h i . c s h a n d l i n g ?
A To f i nd ou t how seve re the f l ap was i r as t . he re
a n y p o s s i b l e d a n g e r o r a l l e g e d t h r e a t t o t h e o r g a n l z a t i o n ;
l f 8 o r t o g e t t h a t l n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e G u a r d i a n r e O f f i c e
i m m e d i a t e l y f o r h a n d l i n g .
A N o w , t h e e p e c i f i c p e r s o n s w h o w e r e c a u s i n g a f l a p
t h a t y o u h a n d l e d e t h i c a l l y a n d p a s s e d o n l h e i n f o r n a t i o n t o
the Guard ian I s O f f i ce r ras who?
Give rne tha t aga in?
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0 You particl,peted ln handllng people rho v'!rc
a f lap i r lght?
A At d l f fcrcnt t lacg, y .s .
O llow vhen var the flrrt tlne?
A I canrt rprcnber the f lrrt tLm.
O Can you ncenbcr the ycar in whlch lt occurred?
A I probably handled toabody - - lctrr tcc - -
by 174 I ual, f think, e Clasg 6 at the t ine helplng e blt
on cthics end I - -
O And thir yee rt thc leee Vcgao orgenlrrtlon?
A YGB.
A Nor, rhat ret thc nltne of the pcrron yho rm
r flap rt thrt tlne that you ueod cthlca handling on?
A Okay._ I can rccrber I lethy Cldc.
A Publ ic or r ta f f?
A 6he vag r ta f f .
0 And rlrat uaB the flap?
A Thc flapr l8 I reaenbcr, yas thc rag narried,
I bclhvc to one tteff nnbcr, but havlng - - lct 'r eay
en out 2D vlth rnoth.r rttff Fnbcr, yhlch was clual.ng the
other ctaff rcnbar to g.t uprct rnd poerlbly thinking of
lcavl,ngr lnd our public people rcre rtartlng to notlce this
becausc the other rtaff grcnber ras a rupGrvltor end ahi wea
caved Ln1 and vc arc trylng - - re hava the renr to handlc
thc plenet rnd yct tbe rupervlsor 1g crylng, lnd ro I had to
get ln rad handle Xathy,
0 Arrd ln the handling of Kathy, did you thrcaten
hcr?
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A ltlattcr of dcgrcG.
O HelI dld you tclL hcr that rhc ree ceueing
problcns in the organization?
A StrrtGd out ln that dircction, yGs.
O And during thie cthl.ce haadling, did you glve
bcr r rcc chcck?
A No lt r lanrt ncaded, no.
o t{ho waa thc ncxt pcr8on that you rccall handllng
r ! a f l ap?
!lR. FLINNI your Eonor, I en going to obJcct. ne
rill be here for - -
TEE couRT: rrn gol.ng to rustaln the objcctiona.
t{R. HARRIS: t{el l , I t taatc hle
tHE coURT: Hell you have tested it . Let,r go on to
ronething elae. we could epend arr day ri th this witnesg
rnd r don't propole to do go after six veekg of this
t r i a l .
a BY |tR. IIARRTS: you eaid that Ardle lrarron uag
the highegt. off icial ln Scientologyl is that corrcct?
A Not lcAally but the hlghest publlc off icial,
the one that we repreaented to the publ.ic aa repregcnting
Sclcntolo9y.
He was the - - US AG pRO.
0 8o he was a publlc relationa per3onl lr that
corrcct?
A RLgh t .
o Now rtren rag thc laet tl.ne that you talked to
trdlc ltarron?
) f
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A The day ue took that four or elx hour rllk.
A And that four or rlx hour ualk rttat day,
vhat nonth, rhat ycar?
A I vould travc to lry lt vould bc eround l{uch 5,
7th, 8th or 9th, roncthing Ln there.
a lfor, rftcr you took thlr velk vith Ardic lirrron,
you uGnt to the pollcel lg that rtght?
A To the pollcc or the FBI. I dldn't go to thc
1rcliee.
A rell you urnt to the rBI?
A I hll.crr that lt tbe tcqucncer tct.
a Hor u e rcrult of the ucalth of lnfomation
that you gav€ the FBI, I trkc lt lots of pcoplc uerc lndl.catcd
lr that corrcct?
llR. ELIIIN: ObJcction, Your Honor.
TEE COURT: Arguncntative, luatalned.
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A 8Y i lR. BARRIST l {e l l , ras anybody lndletedr 18
far as you know, based upon your ln fo rna t ion?
HR. FLINN I Ob jec t lon , Your t lonor .
T H E C O U R T : O v e r r u l e o .
Iou can answer .
T E B f i I t l I E S S r I d o n r t k n o w w h a t t h e P B I d l d .
A Bl UR. nARRIST You donf t l rnoy rhat the IBI dtd
r i t ,h your ln fo rna t lsn?
A N o , I d o n r t .
A D l d y o u t e s t t f y b e f o r e a n y G r a n d J u r i e a ?
A t{9.
a A n d y o u a r e I c l l c n t o f f { r . F l y n n r a ; r l g h E ?
A l e s .
A And you have been a c l i cn t o f f i r . F lynnra fo r
hov long?
A L e t r s t e e . T h e u e e k a f t e r I y e n t t o t h e P B I
no, t few nont ,hs la te r .
A That wou ld bave becn t797
A ' 7 9 , y c 8 .
Lav in ta Dukopf ca l led ne about lh rea tc rhe ras
rece lv lng and aek lng ne fo r hc lp .
She told ne about t { lhe Flynn a6 the l rwyer and
aeked l f he could cone to rneet wi th ne ln Vegag, And he
d l d n r t c o n e r b u t t c o o t h e r s d l d .
A lwo f ro$ h is o f f l ce?
A Y e E .
A And you had a long ta lk w l th then and you
re ta lned theq l l l s tha t r igh t?
0 - 2
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4
b
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A Y E s .
O A n d a t . t h e t i m e s t r i k e t h a t - - a f t e r y o u
r e t a i n e d l ' 1 r . F l y n n
By the wayr have you g iven h im any noney?
A N o .
O A f L e r y o u r e t a i n e d H r . F l y n n y o u b e g a n t o g e t
p e o p l e w h o w e r e d i s a f f e c t e d w i t h S c l e n t o l o g y t o c a l l u p
M r . F l y n n , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A f n f a c t , I h a v e n e v e r a s k e d g r t o l d a n y o n e E o
c a l l I ' t i k e F l y n n .
a l iave you ga thered peop le together ln your house
f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f h a v i n g t h e m g e t t . o g e t h e r w l t h M r . p l y n n
a n d r e t a i n h i n a s c o u n s e l ?
l{R. PLYNIf : Ob J ecl ion , Your Honor .
? H E C O U R T T f ' 1 1 s u s t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
! ,1R. HARRIST No fu r ther ques t ions .
THE COURT: Red i rec t?
t {R. FLyNNs JuEt a coup le o f th lngs , Your Honor .
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY } lR. FLYNII :
A Here you sued by the Church o f Sc ien to logy
approx imat .e ly 10 days a f te r Thomas Hof fn ran and Kev in F lynn
f r o n n y o f f i c e n e t u i t h y o u f o r t h e f i r s t t i m e i n l a t e L 9 7 g ?
A Y e s ,
O And a t tha t t ime d id you re ta in me to de fend
you?
A Y e s .
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0 Have you been eued tw ice s ince then by the
C h u r c h o f S c i e n t o l o g y ?
A Y e s i t h r e e p e o p l e f r o m t , h e A t , t o r n e y G e n e r a l ' s
o f f i c e i n c l e a r w a t e r c a m e t o B e e m e a n d s u e d n e a n d e a l d r
was in a consp i racy hr i th them.
O Af te r the one meet ing w i th Thomas Hof fu ran were
you sued fo r consp i racy and v lo la t lon o f F i rs t Amendnent
R i g h t s o f t h e C h u r c h o f S c i e n t o l o g y ?
A Y E S .
0 Y o u h a v a b e e n e u e d t w l c e s l n c e t h e n f o r v l o l a t i o n
o f t h e i r F i r s t A r n e n d m e n t R i g h t s ?
A l e s .
A J u s t 6 0 E h e C o u r t , H i l l h a v e t h e r i g h t l n p r e e s l o n ,
uhat rre Eome of the names of t ,he poor prayers you have been
i n t o u r n a n e n t s w i E h ?
A W i l l l e H o s c o n l ; l , t i n n e s o t a F a L s ; J o e B a l s i s , a l l
the t .op p layers in t ,he worJd .
0 A t one t ime you re re t ,he na t lona l p lngpong Jun io r
champion o f the wor ld - - o f the Un i ted Stares?
i l R . H A R R I S : I ' l l o b j e c t , Y o u r H o n o r .
T H E C O U R T : I f l I s u s t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
l laybe he ought to ge t a L i te conmerc ia l Job .
M R . F L Y N I I : T h a t f s a l l I h a v e , y o u r H o n o r .
T H E C O U R T T A n y L h i n g f u r t h e r , l t ! . H a r r i e ?
HR. HARRIS: No, Your Honor .
THE COURT: You nay step down.
H R . F L Y N N : K i n a D o u g l a s , p l e a s e .
o B
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KII,TA CAROL ELIZABETH DOUGLAS,
c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s b y t h e D e f e n d a n t t n e u , r r e b u t t a l r r a s
s w o r n , a n d t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
T H E C L E R K : R o i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d t o b e s n o r n r p l e a s e .
T H E I { I T N E S S : I d o B o 6 w e a r .
T H E C L E R K : B e s e a L e d . S L a t e a n d e p e l l y o u r n a m e ,
p l e a s e .
T H E I { I T N E S S : K i m a , K - i - n - a , C a r o l , C - d - r - o - 1 , E l i z a b e b h
D o u g l a s , D - o - u - g - 1 - a - s .
DIRECT EXAI4 INATION
BY }IR. FLYNN :
A H r s . D o u g l a s , y o u a r e n a r r i e d t o l t i c h a e l
oougJ.as?
A C o r r e c t .
A And you uere lnvo lved w i th the Church o f
S c i e n t o l o g y b e t w e e n c e r t a i n y e a r s ?
A Y e s r G i r .
0 W h a t w e r e t h o s e y e a r s ?
A 1 9 6 8 t o 1 9 8 0 .
A I n t h e y e a r s 1 9 7 8 t o 1 9 8 0 r h a t p o s l t i o n s d i d y o u
h o l d ?
A I was COI IU. And I was ] ied ica l Of f i cer
W o r l d w i d e .
0 f {e re you the pereona l Ued ica t Of f l cer fo r t . Ron
Hubbard?
A Y e 6 , 6 1 r .
A D u r i n g w h a L p e r i o d o f t i m e ?
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4435
A F r o n 1 9 7 5 u n L l l I l e f t l n 1 9 8 0 .
0 A n d d u r i n g E h a t p e r i o d o f E l m e y o u t o o k c a r e o f
M r . H u b b a r c i ' s n e d l c a l , n e e d s ?
A Y e s , 6 i r .
a And were you in the presence o f L . Ron Hubbard
o n v l r E u a l , l y a d a i l y b a s i s d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e ?
A From L977 on ercept fo r a per iod when I took
a t w o - w e e k p e r l o d o f f e a c h y e a r . r w a s w l t h h i n r d a i l y . p r i o r
U o t h a t t h e r e H e r e t i m e s w h e n I r , a 6 d o i n g m i s s i o n s . S o I
w o u l d n ' t h a v e b e e n n i t h h l m o n a d a i l y b a s i s , b u t i t w a e
a b o u t 8 0 p e r c e n t d a i l y .
A I n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e s e m i s s i o n s r y o u w e r e t h e
d i r e c t o r o f a p p r o x i m a t e l y l 4 o r 1 5 s c i e n t o l o g y c o r p o r a t i o n s ?
A O u r i n g n y p e r i o d i n S c i e n t o l o g ! , y e s .
LlL
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o And RRF, Rertgtoul Rcrearch roundatr.on vag
onc?
I faB.
O And RBA vae rnothcr?
A Icg.
A And dld you !.acorporrte RRF?
A And n8l, yec.
o red rrr you rcnt on rlrrlon by L. Ron Eubberd
to lacorporetr tborc cor?orrtlone?
A I rtt.
o Aad ln conncctloa ulth all ruch eorpontlonr
d.td you .lgn uadrtcil lrttcrr of rcrlgnatlon?
A tr t r t l atgrad tb! t .
o fu th Frrlrorc of lnr to have L. non Eubbrrd
ncrlvr mcy?
XR. AARRIBT I rtll obJect to thrtl hrdlng.
0 Ef trn. ll,l'Uil r f t yorr kDorr.
TIE COURT: Otrtrrulod, you ean rnlnEr.
*IE IftilBBS: I.8.
O BY tG. ELll{tr1 prnn Chnrch of Selentology
orgralt.tlor?
A laa.
I ilor do roo rrcrrll ttrr date thrt you left tbc
church - - lcft rcrhLng tor L. Ron Bubbtrd.
A tlrs l6th of Janruery, 19E0.
o Prl,or to tlrrt tlnG ufrc you tn thc prcrncc ot
L. loa Eubberd rtrcn ho rpproved th. pctttlon of Goreld Arar
rrrtrd rrhibtt I tor xrurporc! of collccting docuraant! to
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4437
wrl,te r blogrrphy and dld you ree hl"m perronally rpprove lt?
A Y c g .
XR. HARRIS: ObJecLionl conPound.
THE COURTT Overruled.
A BY !lR. FLYNN: Iou raw hirn perronally approve
i r?
A Yes, I vag there when he 9or i t . Be talkad
to c about Gcrry becauge Gerry had been a Junl.or of alne.
Durlng thc pcriod that Gcrry rae Ln thc RPF I had taken the
IPF under Ey ring as COHU for c ehorL yhile and be told ac
vbat Gerryrc petition rac and he actually shovad E the thlag
tlrat hc had rigncd. HG ectually signed this plece of paper.
thic rag than typcd up by a r.lenger later on.
A Then you rty he actually signed thlg plece
of paperr you are referring to axhibit F?
A Right .
0 And You aau hlu rlgn that?
A leg, 'R, Okay.' And tt ras thcrc hla crosa on
l t .
O Nov there lg rcrne routlng oo it erhiblt F
lncludlng 'cct COEU.'
A Tbat tE n6.
0 N o l J l Z o u h a v e h e a r d L } r € o a l n € E r n e s l E a r t w e l l
ncntlonod?
A TG8.
o were you Ln the presence of L. R(,n Eubbard vtren
hc ordered thc Hartuallre PC fi les to be culled?
A Y€s. Be ordered aII crlnes Listed and rl 'gned
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by tbo f,artrnllr bofore thcy left. I belleve thc Bertnllr
uGrc inearcerated for a rhort r|rtle.
A You grve Bore photographs to Gerald Arrctrong
to rcI}?
A r d id .
0 And did thoae photographe bclong to you?
A tb.y rerc takcn by ae ylth ily eaD.rt. ?hcy
rGr. Ircrronrf ly ry photogrrpht.
A And yon arc feniller rlth thc OIC Corporatlon?
t l r r .
A And ucre ltou lrara that boerd rlnuter of thrt
corlroratlon Grc brckdrtod?
A In one lnstancer fG8.
0 Fw dld you have $rr opportunlty to pGrtoarlly
oblorrrc L. Ron Hubbard betrsen 197E rad 1980 rith rcAard to
lrrrtl,onrl or rburlve bcbavlor?
A tcg.
A ADd rbrt Atd you obrcrvc?
A Tbat tlrcrc u.rc tluc that he rrs Lrretlonal.
A And rar hr abuslve?
A I rrr bh hit ono pcrfoD. I coarldar that
tbutlYc.
O Dld you pcrronally lcc L. Ron Hubbard ordcr
p.oplc to th. RPF for nlaor lnfractlont?
A fcl, f ras onc of thGn.
O And rrhat uae the lnfractl.on?
A I bad - - LRE brd r t ldncy lnfcctlon. Ic
had trkcn tlra urlno tc3t in to bc cr.nlnod. Tha urtne tcrt
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4439
eu. brck thrt hc had rtraptoeocci baeterla and ru ttertcd
treatlng hh vlth rn lntlblotLc.
8lx nrks lrtar I did enother tcat bocaurc
be rarnrt gcttlng better. re brouEht the tcct to hln aad
It rhmd dtffercnt bretarial lnfectlon !t that polnt rad he
rtr vcry lngry and put rc ln thc Rpp.
It rar not ln RPP es tt latcr !6sr;rc rrbcn
Gcrry veg tblrc. r vee put tn to eoventry for fl.ve rrekr
rnd aobody rtr rllorcd to trlk to Da.
O Are you frntltrr rith the culllng of pC filco
rt llatcr bcadgulrt.rt end runnrr hcadquartcrs at th. Epccirl
Onit ln lt?? rad r78?
A Ycr.
o And uhet dtd yor rac rl.th rcgrrd to tlr. culllng
of PC folden?
A I hevc eullcd pC foldcrs nysclf. I blvr rsen
otlrcr .trff rnbrrt oulltng foldcre.
A lor rhrt purpoec?
A 1lo bc .cnt to B-1.
0 fDd 8-l lr vhat?
A Gnardl.rn offlcc l,atcl.
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A Now, rhen you lc f t the organ lza t lon d ld you do
w h a t E h e y c a l l ' b l o w o u t ' w i t h o u t r o u b l n g o u t ?
A Y E 6 .
0 And ras Ehat a h lgh c r ine in Sc ien to logy?
A A b s o l u t e I y .
0 And fo r whtch one cou ld be dec la red?
A Y e g ,
A Here you dec la red?
A No. LRH d id no t dec la re rne .
tRH and I had very spec ia l cornnun ica t lons . H€
h a o b e e n f r i e n d s , a n d I t h l n k r o o a v e r y s p e c l a l l e v e l f o r
qu l te a long t ine . I ha< i aeen h in th rough qu l te a lo t o f
t h l n g s .
A And uere you persona l ly fa ra i l la r w i th h is hca l th
h i e t o r y ?
A Y C E .
A And because of t .he naLure of the technology of
Sc ien to logy h is hea l th h isbory r ras he ld ou t to the pub l lc
a s b e i n g 6 u p e r i o r ?
A Y e s .
A And you know in fac t tha t h is hea l th h le to ry ras
not chat i t uas represenEed to the pub l lc asr l s tha t
c o r r e c t ?
A C o r r e c t .
A And on at Jeast one occasion you had aaved
L. I ton Hubbardrg l l fe f rom a pu lnonary enbo l lam?
A I g o t h i n r i n t o a h o s p i t a l . T h a t s a v e d h l s l f f c .
I d i d n ' t p e r s o n a l l y r a v e h l e l i f e , b u t h e h a d r e f u s e d t o g o
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i n to a hosp i ta l and r counter rnanded h is o rder wh ich ras no t
a normal th ing . But r count ,e rs randeo h is o rder on two
occas ions . That was one o f thern .
l lR . FLYNN: ThaL is a l l I have.
THE COURT: You may c ross-exan ine .
M R . L I T T : T h a n k y o u r y o u r H o n o r .
CROSS-EXAI' i INATION
BY I , lR . L ITTI
a Hr6 . Doug lasr you sa id sonre th ing about t ,he fac t
t h a t y o u h a d i n c o r p o r a t e d R R F I i s E h a t r i E h t ?
A Y e s .
0 And what you neant by that is that you took a
t r lp aonep lace and were respons ib re fo r se t t ing up the
corpora t ion?
A C o r r e c t .
A And you re tu rned ano then inned ia te ly res igned
your d i rec to r rs ; ros t in the corporaL ion and o ther peop le
a s s u m e d t h e d i r e c l o r r s p o e t ?
A QuiEe lnned la teJy .
I spent , f i ve days in a Span ish ja l l p r io r to
get t ing back In to the eh lp .
a The f i ve days tha t you spent in the Span ish ja i l ,
that r ras a6 a resul t of harassment by the spaniah government
aga ins t Sc ien to logy?
HR. FLYI {N: Ob jecL ionr lour Honor .
THE COURTT I suppose i t ls a conpouno quest lon.
You can ask i f ghe knows uhy she was pu t in ja i l .
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THE WITNESST I was pu t in Ja i l by Ehe
l f h a t i s y o u r H I - 5 l n t h i s c o u n t r y ? T h e C I A a n d
b y t h e S p a n i s h w h o w e r e a c t i n g f o r t h e C I A .
O A n d y o u i r e r e f a l s e l y a c c u s e d o f e e l l i n g d r u g s ?
t {R. FLYNN: I obJec t . Beyond the scope, Your Honor .
THE COURT: I Euppose you are ge t t ing inLo a l l k inds
o f t h l n g s .
I r J l o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n . I f y o u k n o w .
THE WITNESS: I was accused o f hav ing drugs in ny
p o s s e s s i o n .
I had a box o f choco la tes . And the Span ish
people put aone chemical .s ln and they came out purple. And
t h e y s a i d , ' Y o u B e e , t h a t i s L S D , ' o r s o m e t h i n g .
The chocolates had been glven to me by an
a i r l t n e , h a d b e e n g i v e n t o n e b y t h e c a p L a i n o n t h e a i r l i n e
sh lch I came back on wh ich was KLH because dur ing the f l igh t
t h e y c a l l e d f o r a d o c t o r l L h e y d i d n r t h a v e a d o c t o r . I r l a a
a n u r s e . T h e y h a d a n a n o n b o a r d t h a t c o u l d n r t u r i n a t e .
I sa t on the to i le t w i th h in and go t h in to
u r i n a t e .
They gave me a box o f choco la tes . That i s the
choco la tes tha t had, 'LSDr ln them.
0 BY i lR . L ITT: Were you ques t loned by the Span ish
author i t les and 6ome Amer ican about Sc ien to logy dur ing the
course o f your a r res t?
A Y e s . I h a d P C f o l d e r s w i t h n e t h a t h a d l i s t s
o f any drug tha t any person had ever taken. So they had a
l l e t o f d r u g s i n t h e m .
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vhen
rrY
d i
A
N o w , w i t h r e s p e c t t o t . h e i n c o r p o r a t i o n o f R R F ,
d t h a t o c c u r ?
a r o u n d
A n d I
, 7 2 ,
j u s e
f c a n r t r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y . I t E e e r n s t o m e i t r a s
' 7 3 , b u t I a n r n o t s u r e . I t t r a s i n t h e f a l l .
cannot remember exac t ly when i t happened.
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aa { l
lln. Lrrrs ilry this bc nerked nart ln ordcr, rour Eoaor
TllB COURTT ll5, all r l.ght.
t{R. fly-ttN: your Bonor , tf re have thc lncorporatlon
ptprrr' r thlnk thoee rhould be rarkcd rether than Juate b ld .
l i lR- Lrr": r dcn't have the incorporatlon prperr.
lfhlr ls rhat I havc, Iour Bonor.
llR. rLrFH: rn r'y rvent, r havc no obJcction to rte
eddrr lb l l l ty .
t{R. Lf?!: t{ay t Juat erk ay guertlonr plcaae, four
Eoor?
?HE COURT: Bc qf gucar-.
ttR. LIff : Thank you.
O itlss Douglae, have you r€en thls docrrrent
bcfore?
A No.
0 It 1r a reeelpt for havtng rc_celvcd g{00,
A Haybc f dld. It lc postlble. f got a lot of
ptpcrs vhen r rent dorrr thcra and ineorporated. r dldnrt
havc too nueh of an idea of rtret r dtd. r had a - - how r
'tr rupportd to do tt rnd r rort of rrnt to cach of thc
pcoplc ln Honrovl.a, end thcy then aent nE to the nert gnyr
lnd thsn r vcnt to the nart guy rnd did rhat t vaa ruppoeod
to do.
0 Now, the date on herc lr Auguet 21, 19?31 doce
thet help to rcfraeh your recollectlon u to tho tre rtrcn
RRP yas aet up?
t l id go r l th th r t .
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a Yo' rald yo' drdn|t hnow too mreh of what you
l .ere dolng, i f I undcrstand l t . Egsont la l l l , you y t r ; BcDt
dovn and your Job was to get thie corporatlon eet up?
-q ! have set un 3revious corporationg, but r heve
nov€r aet up a eorpo:ation ln Honrovtt before rnd it wasnrt
Y€ry organl,zed. dwn there.
O And other than get t ing i t set up, l t wagn' t
your Joh to then run ir- aft_er thai-?
A t{o, but f r+ar madc a corporate_. _- 1 thlnk tt
ras the gecretar l 'or t : :easurer of iL wharr r a igr red on and
elgned of f when I sot back to the sh lp.
0 80 you ",cre nado the trcaaurcr and rceretarlt
for corporatlon purposes?
t R lgh t .
a But you dld not after you returned to the
chtpr ioo did not eontlnue to functLon ac an off lcrr or
dlrcctor of RnP?
A Ho .
0 And 1'6u never dealt wj.th personally wlth any
of the actl.rlties of RpJf ls tJaat corr€ct?
A No. llouer.er there was no - _
e when you say rno,. hre are gol,ng to get confuged
hcre. Let lo€ try l t again.
You d id not handle personal ly any of the
eorporate rnrtters of RRF after you rerigned? Ansrcr the
guest ion yes i f thst Etatcrncnt is corr tc t .
A Ohr I eee . yes .
There ls cne thlng I neod to say. Bvcn though
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I rlgneC off, at that tlne tharc vac no ner nctnbcr put onto
the board to take ry pos i t ion for qu i te ! fc r nontha.
A Ok ,ay .
A So I was sort of kind of a nember but not e
nember.
0 And you test l f ieC thar- l t was your under l tendlng
that tbe purpcse of RRF had to do wlth Eoneys to LRH?
A Uh-huh.
0 And your understandlng was that that vas ln
connect icn r r i tb royal t les l ls that correet?
UR. FLYNN: ObJeet ion, Your Eonor .
THE cOURt: Fre l l , L t ie cross--exasr lnat lon.
THE I{ITNESS: i t did geem to na to have gon thLng to
do w i th roya l t i es . f don ' t unders tand , I r ead th la
th ing through. I know i t deal t wl th f inancee- f kaov l t
deal t wi th aone f lna.nces to LRH'
I t a lse ssssred to Ceal wi th a royal ty problcn.
I know there had bcen a royalty problern in Denmark becauae
frgm Europe we couldnft get mone.y out et a certain pcriodl
okay?
Things then ehanged. I don't even knov hor
and what. I donrt know what was happening out there. I
Just know there was a problern. Thls der l t v l th eone of t t .
0 BY I.{R. LfTT: All r ightl rowl you tosttf tcd
that you rere ordered to thc RPP. Actual ly I guers i t ragn ' t
the RPF.
A f t was a sPec la l RPF.
A And when was that?
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A I bc l i eve L t was t78 . No , wa i t a nonen t .
Hhen yas the raj.d on - - sben was the raid?
O l te l l I r i l l as l l you another gucst ion.
!m.. FLYIt: i : htr icir raid?
0 BY HR. IITT: Would ie Ue sone t ime around thc
sunner of L977?
A I bel. leve so,
0 And at that tiras you uere holding the
porit ion ls head of the househol,d unit?
A I was CO RU pr ior to that r t€s.
A Aod you spenl five wceks in thie eaeignrncnt?
A I spenU f ive ryeeks ln to ta l s i lence pruning
c l t ru r t r ccg .
0 And after that, you went. back and reaegurucd
your poat?
A No, I Cid not - I was cook for 400 people for
a short whiler lrrd then LRiI cane back. This r*as after the
reid f lap had sort of settred dosn. LRH had gone. He crnc
back aad he put ree back on pcst.
A And that lras ln approxkaately tho beginnlng
o f 1978?
A If you say so. I am not really good on dateg.
I tn aorry.
A Ln any event, you came back to your post as
Corunanding Off lcer of the Houeehold Unit, ls that r lght?
A That is correct.
A And you continued to retain your special
reratlonahip with t lr . Hubbard that you have testtf led to?
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A Correct .
0 AaJ you continued to work with hln es you
bave test i f led Lo on a dal l l ' bas is?
A R iEhr .
A And th i s was a f te r Lh i s ass ignmenc tha t you
have descr ibed, a l l o f Lhese events that I have been
ask ing you abou t ; i s t ha t r i gh t?
l{ow, you eaid that on occaaion you taw
l{ r . Hubbard, I th ink you eaid t 'ou Ear h im get rhat you fe l t
ras l r ra t ional . You a lso, in genere l , obgerved h in to bc | _ _
ln fact, I r l11 change tb.t, to be tn Bxtraordinary nen ln
your judgment?
A lle rras a genius aE f ar ea I was concerned.
0 And these occasions uhere you obsenred rhat
you felt uar EometineE a f i . t of teitper , for instance?
A You could ca l l iL thaL.
0 fn your oplnion and Ln your experlence, those
Tere not cbaracterigt l ,c. They yere t, lmes vhcn you observed
that llr. Hubbard would get angry or get uprct or get even,
as you vlewed lt, lrratlonal?
tl lR. FLYNN: r u111 obJect. rt is a co'nrpound guestion.
TEE COURTT tfell lt ie very compound. I don.t knoy
vhere the quert ion rnark crme in there. It kept golng on and
o n .
lm. LITT: I an givS.ng her a range of cholces,
b u t - -
TEE COURT: You anewer ycs to a range, you doD't get
Yerlr mueh.
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0 B Y l { R . L I " T : A n d t h l e c h a r a c t e r i z a L i o n t h a t
Hr . F lynn has ashed you about as to ehetber o r no t you have
€ v e r o b e e r y e d H r . H u b b a r d t o b e i r r a t i o n a l , l n y o u r
e x p e r l e n c e t h a t u a s n o [ c h a r a c t e r l s e l c o f H r . g u b b a r d , t h e s e
t h l n g s ; t h e s e w e r e t h i n g s t h a t y o u o b s e r v e d o c c a s i o n a l l y r
l s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A Occae iona lJ ,y r t€s .
A And you sa id tha i , you spent f i ve years on a
v l r t u a l d a l l y b a s i s y i t h l r r . H u b b a r d ?
A V i r t , u a l l y ; e s p e c i a l l y t h e l a s t t h r e e y e a r 8 .
A N o w , H r . F l y n n a l a o a g k e d y o u a b o u . . t . l r . H u b b a r d , s
h e a l t h .
Y o u l a e t 6 a H H r . E u o b a r d l n J a n u a r y o f 1 9 9 0 ?
A Y e g .
a And a t tha t t i rne h is hea lch $a6 the begb you had
G v e r a e e n l t ; w a s n I t t t ?
l4R. FLYNN: I obJec t . The bes t she had ever seen?
t l R . L I T T : I e s , i n h i s c a 6 e .
THl l COURT: Of l l r . Hubbard.
I t l l o v e r r u l . e 1 t .
? l lE l { r?NESST As fa r as h ie we ighb ras concerned, yeg.
f le had by th la point gone througb two €nbol isns which do have
g u i t e a l o t t o d o w l t l r w e l g h L .
t te yas s t i l l snrok ing a lo t , , about th ree or
four packe a day .
H ls we igh t be ing down t 68 fa r as I h ras concerned,
pu t h lno ln to the bes t chance he has had fo r a long t lne ,
A He was a lso cxerc io ing? you had, ln fac t l
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a s s i s t e d h i n l n s e t t , i n g u p a n e x e r c i s e p r o g r a m ?
A I t w a s r e a l b a s i c , b u t i t w a e e x e r c i a e , y e 6 .
0 Now, w i th respec t to the photographs tha t
! ! r . F l y n n a s k e d y o u a b o u t r t h e e e r e r e p h o t o g r a p h s t a k e n w h l l e
y o u u e r e s t i l l
A C h r i s t m a s a n d N e w Y e a r r s o f 1 9 8 0 e x c u s e t n e
' 7 9 .
A And l t uas your unders tand ing a t the t ine you
took the photographs tha t they Herc on ly fo r your peraona l
u s e i c o r r e c t ?
A U h - h u h .
0 Now, a f te r th ls photograph inc idenb you a t tended
a neet ing a t the Bonavent ,u re Eote l t i s tha t r igh t?
A U h - h u h .
tBE COURT: You have to ansner aud lb ly .
T H E W I T N E S S T I r n 8 o r r y . Y e s .
O BY l rR. LITT: And how is i t that you came to
a t tend th is neet ing? D ld sonebody contac t you and auggest
tha t you a t tend i ,
A Y e E .
0 Who wae that?
A . I in D inca lc i .
A And d id you a t tend the meet ing two daya or one
day?
A Two days bas lca l l y . Bu t i t wasnr t a cont inu ing
neet ing . I t l ras jus t one meet ing and Chen the nex t day we
sor t o f cha t ted and - -
0 A I I r lgh t . . Now, go lng to the second day , a t the
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t l n e t h a t , y o u a r r i v e d a t t h a t n e e t i n g w a s H r . A r n s t r o n g
t h e r e ?
A On t . l re second day?
A I f y o u r e c a l . l .
A I d o n r t k n o w . I c a n r t a n s w e r t h a t e x a c t . l y
b e c a u s e I d o n r t k n o w .
O And do you reca l l any document be lng present a t
t h a t t i n e ?
A N o t o n t h e s e c o n d d a y , b u t o n t h e f i r s t d a y , y e s .
O A l l r l g h t . L e t r E g o t o t . h e f i r s t d a y .
Do you know whether Mr . Arns t rong was there uhen
y o u a r r i v e d o n t h e f l r s t d a y ?
A I t aeens he was, bu t f am not go ing to Enear to
tha t . I t 6eens he hrag .
0 A n d w e r e t h e r e d o c u n e n t s s e t o u t o n a t a b l e o r
a bed or eometh ing?
A JusE some papers on a bed.
0 And d ld you have the unders tand ing tha t they Here
ava i lab le fo r you to look a t?
A l t i ke to ld me f cou ld look a t them.
0 l l i ke , Your l lonor?
A No l ! l r . P lynn.
0 f see . So a t th is meet ing he made a s ta tenent
bhat he had var ious docunents tha t peop le cou ld take a rook
a t t h e m , a o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t ?
l lR, FLYNN : ObJect lon .
THE COURT: ' someth ing l i ke tha t . nakes i t a lnos t
a n y t h i n g . I t i s t o o g e n e r a l .
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l . l R . L I T T : I I l I r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s t i o n .
0 l 1 r . F l ynn made the s ta temen t t ha t you
who were p resen t cou l .o l oox a t t he documen ts tha t
i s t h a t r i g h t ?
f {R . FLYNN: Ob jec t , i on , Your Honor .
T H E C O U R T : f ' 1 1 o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n .
THE WI?NESS: As I renember , H r . F l ynn was
n y s e l f a n d m y h u s b a n d , p o s s i b l y G e r r y r a s t h e r e .
e v e n s u r e .
a n d o t h e r s
u e r e t h e r e ;
t h e r e ;
I am not
B u b h e s a i d t h e r e a r e a o n e p a p e r s t h e r e t h a t y o u
c a n r e a d .
f k n e w t h e p a p e r s . I h a d s e e n t h e m b e f o r e .
A A l l r igh t . And anong the papers were a Bet o f
p a p e r s r e g a r d i n g a o n e d i a r i e s a n d j o u r n a l s o f M ! . H u b b a r d
f r o m w h a t a p p e a r e d t o b e t h e p o s t - b r a r p e r i o d , L a : e 1 9 4 0 ' s ?
A I d o n r t k n o w t h a L t h e y w e r e d i a r i e s . T h e y u e r e
w r l t i n g e o f L R H . I k n e w h i s w r i t i n g ; s o - -
A P e r s o n a l w r i t i n g s ?
A Yes, you cou ld say tha t .
O And was Bhere any th ing f ron - - any th ing e lse tha t
you remember f rom l '1 r . Hubbardrs
A I k n e w a l l t h e p a p e r s . S o I s o r t , o f d i d n ' t
rea l l y bo ther read ing then. I hac l read t .hen a l l , be fore .
0 B u t y o u r h u s b a n d h a d n ' t , h a d h e , t o y o u r
knowledge?
A He hadn ' t read them f rom ne. So I - - you know - -
0 And do you remember someLh ing hav lng to do w l th
a r i tua l , any th ing l l ke tha t . , t ,ha t waa anong the papers?
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A I b e l i e v e t h e r e w a s , y e s . I t h i n k s o .
A A n d u a s t h e r e a l s o a l e t t e r f r o m l t r s . H u b b a r d
t o H r . F l u b b a r d a n o n g t h e p a p e r s ?
A I d i d n I t g e t i n t o t h e u r t h a t m u c h . I d o n ' t k n o r ' .
T h e r e p o a s i b l y l r a s , I a n r n o L s u r e .
A 1 ] I k n o w i s t h a t I l o o k e d t h r o u g h t h e r n ; I
f l i . ppe< i t h rough then . I knew I had read the ru a l l . And I
l e f t t he ra .
0 L e t n e 6 e e i f f c a n r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t l o n .
I a r n r e f e r r i n g r p e c i f i c a l l y t o a p r i v a t e l e t t e r
o f ! t r 6 . H u b b a r d t o ! t r . H u b b a r d f r o n t h e e a r l y 1 9 5 0 r s ; d o y o u
k n o w t h e l e t t e r I a m t a ) , k i n g a b o u t ?
A I k n o w t h e l e t t e r y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .
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A You bad, ln fact., leen it uhen lt res ln
srcrage; ir tbat righca
A Ttlar- 1g correct.
a l4rc. Dougras, was that retter at tbc reeting
to che best of ) 'our recollect':-on?
A I gar:not guarant.ee that, it, wae and I cannot
6 a y - -
A But you believe it, vas?
A There ls a good posstbll i ty that it was, but
I can't - - lG I said, I did Dot retch any - _ therc lc r
good possibll i ly, but r rn not- Brcaring a hundred per ccnt
tbat lt ras Lhere bcceusc I (ion'L renenber.
0 I as not aslslng you to swear a hundred
Perccnt.
T8Ij couR?: r{erl she'r told you vbat lhc rcnoaborl,
Counsel. Lst's try a different quoetlon.
0 BY ti i l . LITTg !i lD. Douglas, did i havc a
convergation urth you last r-eeh concorting thls rubJcct?
A Uh-huh.
a And dld you LeIl ac that you rGcrllGd thle
lett.r havl,ng been at ttrc raetlng?
l{R. ELIllli: i an golrg to object, your Eonor.
F{r. Lttt has beer: involved in real estate
t;3nsactlons rrth Hrs. Dougraa' husbanc rad her been
dcveloplag tnd curtivating for thc rart trro :/aar8 t pcrlonrl
relationship * --
ldlR. Llrr: Hhat 1g thirr rhis ls outrcgeous, yqrr
Honor.
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THE couRT: werr, unresa there ig ,o'e rttorney-crrent
prlvi lege, r don't know. The fact that they nry hevc talked,
vhatever the circunstances L'erer mry go to the rrelght.
0 By !:,R. LfTT: lrtrs. Douglas, do you know vhat
the quest ion ls?
A I understand what the guest ion 18. yaa, I
rccall talklng to you and yes, r - - the thing le you are
asking me to give you a hundred percent anower.
0 No, r am rsking you for your b€st recolrection.
A r '1y best recollection ie that r berreve rt yas
there; okay? But the only thing is
a That i s f lne .
A f am not lure.
A All r ight, anrd at thls reetlng dld t{r. Flynn
of fornerrlro ruggert that there be organized conference
Scieatologlsts to try to take over ScientoloEA?
uR. FLYNN: Objcctlon, your Honor.
THE COURTI Ovcrruled.
TgE IfITNESS: Did I,1r. Flynn _ _ aru I to
a By !tR. Lftf r yes.
A I arn to answer. okay.
Mr. Plynn did nake Fention about talklng to
some scientol0gists and showing the truth of yhat the papers
that he had rhowe<l up. Also, eome of the thinge that rer€
not so public about RpFrs, folder culllngr Bo&E of the
crlninal activit ler that the Guardlaofe off l .cc had takcn to
cortain pcoplc such ag paulette Cooper.
0 HelI, let me - - t want you to focur on the
answer?
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docurcnts. You saLd thaL 1.1r. Flynn suggested a neetlng
vhere the conLents of ttrese docuin-:nt,s would be cxpolcd, elro?
THE COURT: That isa ' t wha._ she sa id, Counte l .
!{R. FLYN}I: Your Honor, r aia not on tr lal herc and,
believe me, r don't want. to becornc an L. Ron pubbard. r an
not a curt leader and r don't want to becone a cult leader,
and ry notives are not that.
HR. LITT: That ls no. -- -,
l[R. FLYNN : I obj ect.
I ' lR. LfTt: I t had to do nlth the aequence of
eventg and the handling of the document.s.
ItR. FLYNI|: Beyond the gcope.
T I IE couRT: r t h ink i t l s - - we l l , r w i l l eus ta ln
the object ion.
O By t. lR. LIIT: Has it suggested to you by
raybody that you yourrelf might want to brlng a suit against
the church?
.1, I uas asked lf I ras angry againet gelcntology
rnd I eald I had been at one tlme and I donrt knov any
sc lento l "og isr who got out o f i t vho wasn' t . r had lor t 12
years of ny l i fe .
I aar not feeling - - I was not fcelLng that
vay rhen I net Flr. Flynn and I st i l I don't feel that vay
I t th le t ine.
0 And uas iL suggeeted to you that you night
uant to sue?
MR. FLYNN: ObJect lon, your Eonor .
TEE COURT: I wIL l susLaln the obJect f .on.
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1457
MR. FLYNI\ I : The last th ing f need ls Selento logy
c l i e n t s .
MR. L ITT : Your Honor , i . f ! { r . P l ynn w ishes to tes t i f y ,
he can take the s tand .
f t iE COURT: You to ld us you were golng to ca l l h im
a long t i rne ago, and that is why you santeo h ln out o f the
c a B e .
MR. LITT: Yes, but he becarse counsel 60 He decided
not to .
T?E COURT: At l r lght . DlEregard the cornnent .
l ' lR. LITT: l , lay I have a monent?
f have no fur ther qucst lons.
T l {E COt iRT: p1r . Harr isr Bny quest ions?
MR. t tARR:S: No, Your l lonor .
TBE COUP.T: Mr. F lynn,
REDIRECT RXAI.IINATION
BY IyIR. FLYI{}I r
0 Flrs. Douglae, uas one of ) 'our duties lnslde
the organiratjon f,o courier cash around the world?
A Y e s .
!tR. EARRIS: This is treyond the scope of cros6.
MR. FLYNN: .Just has to do wi th the Spanish Ja l l .
THE COURTI Overrule tbe objection.
0 By HR. rLYNN: Have you crossad tha Unlted
States in cxcess of a hundred t ines wl th n l l l ions of
dollare ln cash?
llR. IIARRIS: $IeIl I wil l object to that, Your Bonor'
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er lcadi'ng rnd aleo bcyoad rhat hc rtetcd tt 1r for, vtry the
Lr ln thc Spanlsh Jal l .
l�HE cotrRTr Hcll lt ls of lntercet anlmay. overrulcd.
?HE flITNESST I angrer?
?TTE COTIRT: TQ!.
llE IIllfBSSr ttot 1n ereegs of a hundrd, but - -
TtE COIIRT: Xot ln axcees of a hundred?
TaE |fr?t{BSS r Bundred tlnes. t have Dot croraed the
unltod gtrtcr ln gcccr of r hundrcd. rt has baen under
thatr but I hevr cqurlcd hund.rcdt of thoucande of dollers
out of the Unl.tcd gtetce durlng tbc pcrlod vhen it rae
rctuelly r erlnlnar actlon lr lt reg rctuarry only a ccrteln
rmrnt of roncy to bc ellored to bc takcn out of the unltrd
Strtasl end r knorlngly cmtttad thrt rction at the tirc.
I BY llR. fLfNN: And do you knor ytrcre thc noney
vac tekcn rt that tino?
A ?o t$e rhlp. f took them to the Flag rhip
ryaelf .
0 Dld yotr Gver takc any noneya to Lnxarubourg or
Llchtcnateln bank lceotrntr?
A Yrs , f d ld .
O And Yhtt .Funts?
A f took lorre frorn the ahip. I eanrt give you
en arrct arcuntr but lt ras Ln gxcets of a nillion.
There rtl !n actLon that wae doran at
Llchtenstcln not - -
A Hag lt ln eaeh?
A leah. flalt r Elnutc. I donrt knor that Lt rts
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Llchtensteln. l l l rat ls the other l i t t le country?
TtrE COIJRT: Luxemlrourg.
TEE WfTNIISS: Thank you, s i r . Luxenbourg.
O BY H.R. I{LYNN : Mr. Lltt asked you about revcral
o f I { r . Hubbard ' s i l l nesses .
oid he guffer from chronic pneunonia?
HR. LITT: I d idn ' t ask aboul any of h ia i l lnesg. f
asked about his health.
THE COURT: i{el lr cross--€xamination. tfhet is tbe
bcst trealth?
O By HR. FLYNN: Did he suffer fron chronic
pneumonia?
A !Io-
O Did he suffcr from pneumonia?
A Once ln a whi le .
IHE COLTRT: Did tre have any bullet urrunds l.n bia
back?
THE } f ITNESS: No, Ei r .
0 BY l{R. ELYNNT Do you knou wherc thcrc ls en
cxhlbit undcr eeal, a ]etter of his ln 1978 ytrere he sald he
suffers fron chronic pneunonla?
A Y e t .
0 Did he suf fer f rom ar thr i t lse
A Y e s .
O Burs i t i s?
A Yss .
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a S k e l e i a l w e a k n e s s ?
A N O .
A D i d h e b r e a k h l s r r i s r s h l l e h l t t t n g a f l y o n
o n e o c c a s i o n ?
A l f you ca l l do lng tha t , r y€E; he broke l r lg
u r i g t .
THE COURTc I dor r r t know r *he ther Ehe record r t l l
re f lec t tha t , bu t t ,he w l tness book her f i s t and s laneed i t ,
d o v n o n t h e c o u n s e l c h a i r .
a BY HR. Fi .Yl i i t r l {owr you fel t very loyal to
t l r . Bubbard wh i le you re re vor t r ing fo r h i ra?
A I s t . i l l do in a cer t ,a in respec t .
A And rhen you le f t the organ iza t ion $er€ you
af ra id o f rha t they migh t do Eo you? fs tha t wh l ' you b leuZ
HR, . I , ITTr ObJec t lon .
TBE COURT: I t l s conpound, counee l .
HR. L ITTr A Iso beyond the scope,
THE COUR?: I ! nay go to c red lb i l l t y .
A BY HR. FLYNNc Here you a f ra id o f the
o r g a n i z a t i o n a f t e r y o u l e f t , t | r s . D o u g l a s ?
A Abso lu te ly .
I w o u l d l i k e t o g l v e a l i t t l e b i t n o r € o n t h a t
q u e s L l o n , i f I u a y .
0 In what , ray Here you a f ra id?
A I was no t a f ra id o f the organ lza t ion , I tas
t e r r i f i e d o f t h e G O a n d I v r a s t e r r i f l e d o f B - 1 .
I know ny fo lders have been cu l led because I have
read ny fo lders . f have Ee€n t ,he l ieLs o f cu l led c r lnes .
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I k n o w w h a t t h e y c a n u s e a g a i n s t m e .
T l iE COURT: Have you gone down and asked tha t Ehey be
d e s t r o y e d i n y o u r p r e s e n c e ?
T H E I J I T I { E S S : N o f o l . d e r s a r e e v e r d e s t r o y e d , s i r .
T H E C O U R T : H r . S p u r l o c k o n t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d a f e w
d a y s a g o s a i d t h a t a n y e x - S c i e n t o l o g i s t c a n g o d o w n a n d a s k
t o h a v e h i s P C f o l d e r s d e s t r o y e d a n d t h e y w o u l d d o s o i n h i s
p r e s e n c e . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t h a s e v e r h a p p e n e C , b u L
t h a t i s w h a t h e s a i d .
THE WIT I {ESS: I t has neve r happened to rny know ledge
b e f o r e .
Qr BY t lR . FLY I i i l : Have you seen L . Ron Hubbard
r e g u l a r l y t h r o w p l a E e s o f f o o d a c r o s s t h e r o o m ?
l {R , L ITT : Ob jec t i on , Your Honor .
T H E C O U R T : I t h i n k w e a r e g e t t i n g a l i t t l e f a r f e b c h e d
t h e r e .
H R . F L Y N I I : f h a v e n o L h i n g f u r t h e r .
T H E C O U R T : A n y t h i n g f u r t h e r , g e n t l e m e n ?
l t l l . f l A P . R I s : I ' 1 1 h a n d l e t . h e c r o s s , Y o u r H o n o r , j u s t
fo r a change o f pace .
RECROSS-EXAH INATION
BY l,tR. HITRRIS:
a l , ! r s . D o u g l a s , w h e n y o u r c o u r i e r e d y o u r n o n e y
Co Luxe raburg f ro rn Ehe sh ip , when was tha t?
A I t w a s w h e n w e w e n t t o d o a n l s s l o n . I c a n ' t
g i v e y o u t h e t i r r e . Y o u c a n t r a c e l t d o w n v e r y e a s i l y . I t
w a s w h e n t h e S w i s s r a i s e d t h e i r c u r r e n c y . T h e y d i d s o m e t h i n g
5 - 3
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w i t h t h e l r c u r r e n c y w h i c h a ! t h a t p o i n t s c a r e d L R H . A n d u h a t
h e w a n t e d w a s a l l t h e S w i s s f r a n c s t a k e n f r o r n t h e S w i s s b a n k s
t o L u x e m b o u r g a n d p u L i n L o t , h e v a u l t .
They were numbered exac t ly f rom yhatever nunrber
t h e y v r e r e . A n d t , h o s e w e r e h i s m o n i e s . A n d t h e c h u r c h ' s
n o n i e s H e r e t w o B e p a r a t e v e r y l a r g e b u n d l e s .
And tha t noney was no ! to be used by the banks
f o r a n y o t h e r r e a a o n o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t .
We had to ge t a l l Ehe nurnbers o f those Swiss
f r a n k s n h i c h i s w h a t w e d i d .
A A t l r i g h t , . S o y o u u e n b t o S w i t z e r J a n d t , o a S w i s s
banr t o t
A We Look noney f ron the sh ip .
A To Luxembourg?
A To Luxernbourg.
The t rans fer f rom SwiEzer land to Luxemtur rg had
a l ready been done in te rbank w ise because we Here ta rk ing
m i l l i o n s a n d n i l l i o n s o f d o l l a r s .
0 The n iss ion tha t you Hent , on to tbe Luxembourg
bank f ron the sh ip ras in L974, wa6 ic nob?
A A g a i n , l t i s a d a t e . A n d I r m E o r r y . I I n n o t
r e a l g o o d . I f y o u E a y E o r y e s . I d o n f t k n o w .
0 The noney that you took !o the Luxembo"irg bank
h a d b e e n s t o r e d a b o a r d b h e s h i p ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t , l n
packages?
A No. There uere Eome, bu t the na ln bu lk o f i t ,
was t rans fer red f ro rn Sr i tzer land to Luxer ibourg .
0 D id you do thaE?
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A I d l d n I t d o t h e t r a n c f e r . f t w a s l n t e r b a n k
t r a n s f e r r e d .
0 S o t h i s r a s s o n e t h i n g t h a t y o u h e a r d a b o u t
b e f o r e y o u w e n t o n y o u r m i s s i o n t , o t a k e t h e c a s h f r o m t h e
s h i p ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t . ?
A I t h 'as the pr lo r th ing - - par t o f rny n lss lon
o r d e r s t a t e d t o i n s u r e t h a t t h i s t r a n s f e r h a d b e e n d o n e .
And i t had been done wf ren we go t there . There
h r a s a l l o f t h i s n o n e y t h e r e .
0 h rhen you were on the s t r ip and were go ing to take
take the money to Luxembourg , d id you see how i t was
p a c k a g e d ?
A t { i th rubber bands arounc i i t .
A D id you see where i t h ras s to red?
A f n a s a f e .
A A b o a r d t h e s h i p ?
A C o r r e c t .
A And were you aHare
A That l s no t a l l Lhe noney. That waa Jus t par t
o f i t .
a Were you aware tha t tha t money had been
t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e s h l p f r o n r S w i s s b a n k s ?
A I have no idea where l t ca ! i le f ron . I t was noney
a b o a r d t h e s h i p p e r i o d .
O D id you depos i t i t in an account o f the Church
o f S c i e n t o l o g y o f C a l i f o r n j . a o r a n y o f i t , I s h o u l d s a y ?
t ' lR . FLYNN: Ob jecb ion , Your Honor .
THE COURT: She pu t i t in a sa fe .
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T H E W I T N E S S : I s C o r e d i t i n t h i s v a u l t .
W e a c t u a l l y w e n t i n t o t h e v a u l t . W e r e a l l y u p E e t
t h e b a n k a l o t . B u t t h e y a l l o w e d u a i n t o t h i g v a u l t ,
A D i d y o u a l s o t r a n s f e r n o n e y l n t o a n a c c o u n t i n
Luxenbourg ?
A f d o n r t r e m e m b e r r t o b e q u i t e h o n e s t w i t h y o u .
f n e a n t h e b i g g e s t p a r t o f t h a t m l s s i o n , t h e b i g t h l n g a n d
the who le reason to r the rn iss ion was ghat we had the numbers
o f t h e e x a c t f r a n t s s , S w i s s f r a n c s .
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a a 6 5
O lc l .
A tt any othar Fne)r rar tnnefrrrcd, thrt lr
posrlble, but- f don't - - I ean't naanber. All I rcrclbcr
ls taklng out a lot of nuohrtr
O All rlght, and at the tine ghat you dJ,d thle,
the pcreon rtro ras rith you rac your then burband, ?ony
Dnnleavy?
A llo.
a lho rae the othar p.non rho rae rith te{r?
A fred f,erc rrld ry huebud-to-be, ltihc Douglrr,
A And rt thr tirc th.t you put thia ln tlra brnk
la tbc rafrr you dpsrrt ksor. utrrt heppcned to lt rftcr that?
A No, I tn rorry. I don't knw lhat brppoaed
to lt. It um ln tbo bsrkr 1n tha rafr, urappcd qr.
O l{on, bor nrch rpeclflcally uas lt that you
tnnrfrrrrd to
A Xrrbor orlcl lt vac Srlcs Frmct.
A lgt.
O Hurber tuor f dottrt l,nov.
A All rlghtr good laougb.
tfhetr ttou Fr. tranrforrlng caeh - -
A I cra t!11 you hor blg tt y!8. Doer that
belp?
0 Do. Hor ebout vtran you rcrc tnnlfcrrlng cmh
lcroar the Unltrd strt8r I thtg rac froa rrbarc?
A xaj,nly froru FBOI that lc Fleg Benhlag Offlccr
[16 rhlch rould bavc bccn Al - -
o Bstaln?
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O Thank your and thcn for e vtrlle lt ras
l{ ihe Smith, and bccause I ras relatlvely truatcd ln the
ctrurch, f was glven DoDcy rent to Flag veekly.
0 Y e s .
A If there wae a blg arleslon golng back, tbcy
took largc rrrpunts of eash end lt depcndcd vho thc nLcrlon
r t6.
A 111 rlght notr how nany guch occasiont d:ld yel
get rcney fron Al Boutaln to trke to the ehlp?
A Sccrs to ne 30, l0 ttmes.
O Aad rtrat ycrr vas that?
A 1970 on to abou t . 7a .
A tnd you rould go dlrcetly to the rhlp rl.th Lt?
A Uh-huh.
O 'Ith-buh' means yee?
A tas.
O And you rould turn lt ovcr to rlroo?
A Vlcky Llvlngrton tftcr a rhllcr but lt rrsnrt
Vlcky Llvlngrton ln thc flret plrt.
It rar tobln looe for a ltttle vhtlc. 6be ulg
Cg 3. I dontt knor. 'lhcra aeGur to havc bean toraebody ln
bctrecn thcra rnd than lt rac VLeky.
O fIl right, rnd did ytru scs rhat heppcncd to
thc roncy rftcr that?
A tso.
O Dld you have r eonverlatlon ulth cl.ther
Hlcr Rooe or lttlar Llvlngrton lr to rrhat vas to bc done vith
the rcncy?
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4167
A Fone of uy buslness. I t rea l1y r rsn ' t .
0 On your rnission to Luxetrbourg to put the
Sriss france ln the safe, Has LRHfa troncy rcAreg.ted frou
church rroney?
A Yes. I t had i ts own numbers.
A Pardon ne?
A It had lts ovn nunbcre and therc sere thrse
buadres. that had its orrn nunberB in bunoles that belongcd
to C of 5 of Cal l forn ia,
l i lR. LIff : Okay. No further questions.
TEE COURT: l,[r. tlynn?
PURTHER REDIRECT EXMIIIATION
BY l{R. ELYXN r
O Vicky Livingston wa6 LRn Accountsr is tbet
correet?
A She was CS 3 for a uhilc. 6ha rar also LRE
Aecounts. She vas also PIag banking off icer, Flag.
O And the opened up p€rsonal banl accounta
for L. Ron Hubbard to yoor klowlodgel ic that corrcct?
I I donr t know.
a The bank rrlren you did thls aission rras actlng
as a sttrrage facl, l i ty for this cash; correct ' l
A Right .
O And you rere going to descrlbe hov big thcse
plles wcrei can you do that?
A le8. Can I gct up?
THE COURT: Sure.
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TBE couRT: The onc sot that beronged to c of s va.
l lke thicr but Lt, vae ebout f lat, rt ras in largc notes
becaure they yere Srisg francs; okry?
LRR 116 the s&al1er one that tort of cene
like this donn and probably about l lke ghat.
?f,E COURTT ffcrr r cuppose ve should rsk you to
describe for the record. Fow rlde wag thrs nou? rou bave
got a ruler tbere . trlaybe you can tell uB.
THE rr"NESS: Thrt rs not a normar rurer. ?hat ie
not real good.
O By HR. FLyr{N: Can you give di'aneions?
A say two foot by about three foot for c of s,
rnd thon LRB uould have been three foot by nayba one foot,
rnd thcn it rent down in tittle stepr t fo _ _ I doort
kDoy.
a And alr this cesh was kept togeiher ln tbe
vault at the storage frcllity rather tban bei,ng in a bank
rccouat?
A Right, becauee of sometbing that happcned rrth
Srlss frrneg and it arro u€nt arong yith if the brnk vent
brohc, they couldnft ul€ that ncrney to bair thcmselvea out
bccaure they rere belng a atorage house rat,her tban - -
TBE COURT: Crcdltor.
TBB I{.[TNESS: Rlghr.
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0 BY l lR. FLYNHT And thlr had not,hlng to do wlth
RRF bank accounts i cor rec t , , to your hnor ledge?
A I donf t knor { .
I nay have broken ay wr ie t .
t {R . FLYl l t ' i : That ts a l I I have, Your Bonor ,
H R . H A R R I S : N o t h i n g f u r t h e r , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURT: You nay step dorn.
l {R. FLYNNT CalI l lomer Schoroerr lour [onor,
t {R. EELLERT Good norn ingr Your Honor . you nay reca l l
ne f rom the o ther day , Hy n lne ts Lawrence He l le r .
?HE COURTT Ycs. I rencnbcr you.
H R . H E L L B R : Y o u r l l r e c a l l t h a t I r e p r e e e n t e d a n
cnployee of Aut,hor servlces rncorporated shlch was Hr, Lynan
Spur loc l r .
I a n h e r e r c p r e a e n t t n g A u b h o r S e r v i c e e I n c o r p o r a t e d
l t s e l f .
f , y underg tand ing ls tha t l t r . Schoner eerved as
a fo rner cnp loyee tnd , ln fac t , uas ln a poe l t lon where he
had accees Eo conf ldcn t la l f inanc ia l ln fo rnra t ion .
Hr . 6choner , no t on ly upon lncept lon ln to the
organ lza t lonr bu t upon l r l s te rn lna t lon , a t the t lne he le f t ,
e lgned r contract ln rhlch he obl igated htrnsel f not t ,o
d lsc lose th ls conf ldent la l f lnanc ia l ln fo r rna t lon .
The la r rh lch I have taken the l lber ty o f b r le f ing
tor lour Honorr and whlch I have aome Xerox coples of here
la very c lear tha t ln the absence o f a cont rac t and l aga in ,
v l th the Ca l l fo rn la Labor Coder rhy ln fo rmat ion wh lch
l l r . schoner or any other enployee acgulrea wlt ,h ln the couree
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and scope o f h ls e rnp loynent wh ich ls deemed to be conf ldent ia l
a n d d u e t o t h e c o n t r a c l t h a t w a s s i g n e d a n d t h e n a t u r e o f
t h i s i n f o r m a L l o n , t h e r e i s n o q u e s L i o n t h a t i t i s
c o n f l d e n t i a l a n d s h o u l d n o t b e d i s c l o s e d t o a n y n e n b e r o f
t h e p u b l l c . A n d t h e r e i s s p e c i f l c C a l l f o r n i a c a s e l a w w h l c h
l n t e r p r e t s t h e L a b o r C o d e w h i c h l s s e c t i o n 2 8 5 0 w h i c h
6 a y s t h a t s l g n l n g s u c h a c o n t r a c t o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y 1 s
t a n t a n i o u n t t o a d s r i t . t . i n g t o a n i n j u n c t i o n b e f o r e t h e c o u r t
p r e v e n t l n g d i s c l o s u r e o f t h i s c o n f l d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
2 8 6 0 a a y s I i t e r a l l y , e v e r y t h i n g w h i c h a n
employee acqu i res by v i r tue o f h is enp loyment except the
compensat ion wh ich ls due h in r f ro r r r the ernp loyer be longs to
the enp loyer whether acqu i . red lawfu l l y o r un lawfu l l y o r
d u r i n g o r a f l e r t h e e x p i r a t i o n o f t h e t e r n o f h i s
employment, .
T h e r e a r e a v a r i e t y o f a p p e l l a t e a n d C a l i f o r n i a
S u p r e m e C o u r L c a s e s t h a t . i n t e r p r e t t h l s t o s a y t h a t t h i s
ln fo rs ra t ion may ln fac t , no t be d isc l .osed under any
c i r c u m s t a n c e s ,
I u n d e r s t a n o t h a t M r . S c h o m e r h a s a l s o t a k e n
f inanc ia l v r i t ten docunenta l ion f ron h is enrp loyer unknon ing
to his employer and bas ehonn that docunentat ion perhaps to
! l r . F lynn .
I ' lR . FLyNN: Def in i te ly no t to ! . i r . F lynn .
HR. HELLER.T Your Eonor , I nay be wrong on tha t , bu t
h e h a s f i n a n c l a l d o c u t i e n t a t i o n ; t h i s i s w h a t f u n d e r s t a n d
f rom conversa t ions sh lch I have had w i th peop le yho he 6aw
a n d w i r o s t a y e d a s h o u s e g u e s t s a t h i s h o u s e a f t e r t e r n i n a t i o n
U - J
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447 L
of hls cmploynent.
I a l s o h a v e s h r o r n a f f l d a v i t s t h a t l { r . S c h o n e r ,
s p e a k i n g w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e , s a i d f o r S 2 0 0 r 0 0 0 h e w o u l d n o t
t e s t i f y i n t h i s c a s e .
I have these peop le here as w i tnesses . And the
C o u r t c a n e x a n i n e L h o s e w l t n e s s e s .
Th is i s ln fo rna t lon wh ich under any c i rcumstances
g h o u l d n o t b e d i s c l o s e d . A n d r b e l i e v e t h i s i s p a r t l c u l a r r y
t r u e b e c a u s e n y u n d e r s t a n d i n g l s t h a t H r . s c h o n e r b e g a n h i s
enp loyment w l th Auehor Serv ices Incorpora ted somet i rne 1n
n l d - l 9 8 2 .
S ince lour Honor knovs a t one t ine I was an
t t to rney o f record very ear ly on in th is caser $y reneurbrance
l s t h a t t { r . A r m e t r o n g r e i n v o l v e n e n t i n t h l e t e r m i n a t e d
aoroet ine in mtd- l982 .
I w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t H r . S c h o m e r , t h i s w l t n e s s ,
i s b e i n g u t i l i z e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f d i s c l o s i n g f i n a n c i a l
in fo rs ra t ion to the pub l ic wh ich is c l .ear ly conf ident la l
ln fo rmat ion rh ich has no re levance to th ie caae.
H r . H a r r i s a n d M r . L l t t m a y h a v e m o r e t o B a y
about . th is .
l l y func t lon here today is to p revene d iec losure
of th ls f lnanc ia l ln fo rna t ion based on Ca l i fo rn ia S ta te taw.
I h a v e t a k e n t h e l i b e r t y o f X e r o x i n g , a s I s a i d ,
a var ie ty o f S ta te , Supreme Cour tT and Appe l la te Cour t cases
which very c lear ly say tha t th is in fo rmat , ion nay no t be
d isc losed. And I nake t t r i s mot lon a t th ie t ime tha t
Hr , Schomer no t be a l lowed to tes t l f y as to any f inanc la l
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i n f o r m a t i o n .
M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t t h a t l s a l l h e i s h e r e
t o t e s t , i f y t o , r e l a t l n g t o m y c l i e n t A u t h o r S e r v l c e s
I n c o r p o r a t e d ,
U R . F L Y N N t 7 r s o u l c i l i k e t o b e h e a r d , y o u r H o n o r .
T H E C O U R T : C e r t a i n l y .
You might as we l l have a seat , | l t . Schoner .
l , ! R . F L Y N N : Y o u r H o n o r r f i r s t o f a l l , w i t h r e g a r d t o
r e l e v a n c e , l { r . s c h o m e r h a s e x t r e m e r y i m p o r t a n t t e s t i m o n y r l t h
r e g a r d t o r e l e v a n c e , n o t o n l y o n i s s u e s t h a t t h e p l a i n t i f f
a n d i n t e r v e n o r r a i s e d t h r o u g h l t r . t y n r a n s p u r l o c k a n d t h r o u g h
T e r r i G a m b o a w i t h r e g a r d t o s e c u r i t y c h e c k s , c u l l i n g o f
P C f i l e s , t h e a c t i v i t l e s o f t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a f t e r t h e y
c l a i m e d t h a t r r 1 0 0 c r i n i n a l s f r o m t h e G u a r d i a n ' s o f f i c e H e r e
renoved.
H r . S c h o r n e r ' s t e s t l n o n y w i l l s p e c i f i c a l l y s h o w
a pabtern o f conducb f rom the noment he Jo ined Ehe
organ iza t lon as he gradua l ly becarne auare o f the conduct o f
t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n r i g h t u p u n t i l t h e b i n e h e l e f t l n S e p t . e n b e r
o f L982,
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And thal- that patterrn of conduet, rtr lctr ls an
lnpor tant issuc in { . - t r : .s casc, nc.ver changec. The pr t tern of
conduct relates t '-o Eecurity checks. Hr. schomer runt through
a ten-hour ctrer:h in which l i i l ;s Ga"*.J:oa, contrary to her
toetlrnony, w.rs pre;cnt for virtual l ,y the en*,ire tcn hourr hc
ut ! lp i t on.
THE COU! I? : I don ' t t h j . n l l t ha , . i s rea l t y - - t h ie
laryer i r not obJec^, ing to t l iau.
, l{R. HEtr,sit : N{)1 r hEvc no obJection to anythlng cxcept
the d igc los ing of f inancia l in for lna*- ion.
I f Hr . F iynn 5,s i r rak ing re i l resentat - i .on that
he is not go ing Lo ( Iue6t , ion hrm cn f lnancia l in for rqat ion,
r donr t th lnk r have the r ight to obJect to any rc lavant
ter t laony.
l , iR. FLYIJN: f w111 d l : -ect ny rernarks, your Honor , to
f inrnc ia l ln for :nat ier i .
As I sce l t , rhc eu: rent - s tate of the record
ln th iE c .ae r i t h rega rd to L , Ron Eubbard ' s con t ro l o f
f lnancial affa:rs antl rr i th rcgard to onr- of the more
fundancntal lrsues in the ease; nancly, who Gcrald ArmstroDg
rorked for re la tes to +-he overa l l contre l pat terns
excrc ised by L. Ron Hubbard r ight f rcn the lneept lon of the
Rubbard Exploratlon cornpanfr through orsr o4tc, RRF, and wlth
tha creat ion of AuLbor Serr - iccs, Inc.
The test.r.nony wil l be that aII of the ldentlcel
conduct that took placc throughout thobe yearG is nol, taklng
place ln Author S6r:\rtc66, Inc. and that nothlng bas ever
cbanged vi,th regard to the control pat-ternE.
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a a 1 1
Parhape tbc rcet rellent ltcr of rvidence lc
that fox, as lour Bouor hao hcerd, for r perlod of 13
ycarE Scicntologiats throughout tha rorld, Ilkc Gcreld Anrt
and thoscands of othcrs vho peid nillions of dollera to
thia organization, bell.cvrd the rcprcrcntetl,ong tbat
L. Ron Hubbard yag aot rrccivlng rny rcDay fro the
Church of Scientology orgenlzatlong.
The tcstlrcny that nr. Echoncr hae 1r
dircct tcathony reletlng to that fraud, rclrtlag to tbe
trenrfer, ln a rix rcnth perlod be rar involved, of
$30 dll lon of church funde ylth retroactlve btl ltngs to
churcb organlrrt ionc lnto L. Ron Hubblrd.t lccount.
That LcaLirnony J.g dircctly contrary to the
lrcarr of rcprecentrtionr that llr. Bubbard nade to the
organirrtlon, lncluding tuo people llke Gerald trlstrong.
tbc court le confronted ultb I ?Gry rlgnl,fl.cant
rlturtloa hcre. If thc court rulc: la fevor of this
confidcntlallty lgr€cr.Dt to rs to prcclude this tcatimny
ln tbe fece of vbat I tubnLt to the court lr a retlrer
raerivc fnud pcrpttrrtrd by L. Ron Bubblrd, not only as
revrrhd ln ttrc documnte but ri.th rcAard to the fLnancirl
oporttlonf tad rechlnationg of this organlzatLon and bls
coatrol ovcr then, tben ln a court of lrw cvery crlainal on
thc rtroct, fvery organlzation could atnply hava t@onc
rrlte up I confldenti,ality .greemaat, end thc confldcnttrllt
tgrGeeent would prevent Boneone trom coming to court and
tcet l fy iag.
Tbe cases that l{r. Hcller referg to rr€ for the
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4475
noet Part trade seeret eases. They have to do wlth custorcr
l lats and trade seeret lnformation whlch a eonqpctltor of
the custoner ls trylng to obtain posreaelon of . l f trat
ur . schourer ls go ing t -o do is test i fy in a cour t o f law wi th
rega rd to l n fo r rna t i on tha t he possesses .
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447 6
H e l s n o t o u t s e e k l n g t o a e I I t h e i n f o r s l a l i o n
to a conpet i to r , even i f the ln fo rn iaL ion cou ld be
c o n g t r u e d t o b e a c u s t o n e r L i s t .
f a l s o h a v e n u n e r o u s c a s e s w h i c h f h a v e X e r o x e d ,
Bome o f wh ich f gave to t ,he Cour t a t the begtnn lnE o f the
c a S e r p r t t l c u l a r l y t h e A r l e n v . J o r d a n o s , B r o w n v . p r e e e e ,
l l i l t i angon v . super io r cour t l rh lch ras epec l f i ca l l y an e f lo r t
to concea l cv ldence dur ing the nr idd le o f a p roceed lng . And
Lhe cour t ru lec thaL shou ld ve ar lo r tha t happenr Do tegL in rony
cou ld Gver be adduced, l f you a tnp ly a l lowed an agreement
t o b e e n t e r e d i n t o s a y l n g t h e l n f o r n a t i o n w a s c o n f i d e n t i a l .
And there are severa l obher caaea wt r l ch say you cou ld never
cn ter lnLo a cont rac t vh ich seeks to concear o r eupp le6E
ln foru" ra t ion wh ich ls e i ther a v io la t lon o f a J ,aw or le even
d lacred l tab le in fo rna t ion . In fac t , the Resta teaent o f
cont rac ts , vh lch le c l ted fu r the A l len v . Jordanos case, the
Brown v . Preeee caee, epec i f i ca l l y says thac a cont r rc t
p rov lE ion to concea l d j ,sc red l t ,ab le in fo rmaL ion 1s vo id as
a na t te r o f law ' thoee are borh ca l i fo rn la eases . And r had
prevlouoly given a copy to the CourL and I would be happy
to g ive another copy to the Cour t .
Th ls Courb has heard s tx weeks o f tes t inony r r i t l r
regard Lo - - lnc lud ing jus t recenr , l y f ron K ima Doug lae
huge cagh t ransac t ions lnvo lv lng an ar leged ly nonpro f i t
o rgan iza t ion ln rh ich soc ioEy pu ts l t s pub l l c t rus t tha t these
funds are be lng used fo r char i tab le purposes .
In add i t lon to thc fac t t .ha t Sc ien io log is te
re l ied upon wr l tben repr€senta t lons fo r eone 15 yearo tha t ,
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L . R o n H u b b a : d w a s n ' t r e c e i v i n g t h e s e f u n d s .
M r . S c h o : r e r h a s v e r y d i r e c t t e s L i m o n y a b o u t t h e
t r a n s f e r s o f $ 3 0 m i l r i o n t o M r . H u b b a r d d i r e c t l y f r o m c h u r c h
f u n d s .
I s u b r n i t t o t h e C o u r t t h a t l f i t a l . l o w s a
c o n f i d e n t i a l t o b e u s e d i n c o u r ! t o p r e v e n t t e s r i m o n y o f t h i , s
n a t u r e f r o n c o n i n g i n i t w o u l d b e a s s i s F . i n g e v e r y o r g a n j . z a t i o n
t o g o o u t a n d e n g a g e i n t h i s t y p e o f c o n d u c t a n d s i m p l y s i g n
a c o n f i d e n t i a ] a g r e e m e n L s o n o e v i d e n c e c o u r d c o m e i n t o
prove the type o f conduct tha t was engaged in .
P o r a l l o f t h o s e r e a s o n s , y o u r H o n o r , f s u b m i t
t h a t t h i s t e s t , i m o n y o f e x l r e n e e l g n l f i c a n c e i n t h i s
p r o c e e d i n g .
A n d i h e c o n t r a c t , t h a t H r . H e l l e r i s r e f e r r l n g
t o , w h i c h I h a v e r e a d , i s a s w o r t . h l e s s a s t h e p i e c e s o f p a p e r
t h a t a l r o f L h e s e s c i e n r o l o g i s t s v e r e r e q u i r e d t o s i g n b e f o r e
t h e y i l e r e a l l o w e d t o l e a v e , t n e s e n o n d i s c l o s u r e a n d r e l e a s e
b o n d s ; i n f a c t , h r h e n H r . S c h o n e r b e s t i f i e s a b o u t t h e
c i rcurns tances under wh lch he s igned these documents , he d id
l t u n d e r d u r e s s , u n d e r t h r e a b , b e i n g s p i t l n h i s f a c e ,
be ing locked in and incarcera ted ln a roon w l th Gordon
Cook
I ' lR . HELLERs Are we ta lk ing about whet .her he can t ,es t i . f y
or nog, Your Honor?
lHE COURT: He is ta lk ing ; you le t h i rn f in ish .
l lR . FLy t , iN : So one o f che cases , fo r exanp le , f have
wi t ,h regard to a conf ident ia l agreearent re ra tes to whether
o r n o t l t w a s a n a r m ' s l e n g t h t r a n s a c t l o n .
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447 I
A B l l r . S c h o m e r w l l l t e s t l f y , t h e r e w a s a b a o l u t e l y
n o a r n r E l e n g b h n e g o t i a L i o n s b e t w e e n E r . S c h o n e r a n d t h e
A u t . h o r S e r v i c e s I n c . r h e n h e w a s o r d e r e d t o s i g n t h e s e
docurnents .
For thaL r€ason a lone, t ,he cont rac t p rov is ion
regard ing nond isc loaure j . s inapp l icab l .e .
t {R. HELLEI { : To beg in w i th , Hr . F lynn nus t be
gonewhat c la i rvoyant . He knows uhag they s tand fo r and tha t ,
t h e y d e a r r i t h t r a d e s e c r e t s . r t i s f i v e c a s e s , i n c l u d i n g
a n A L R c i E a t i o n w h i c h h a v e n o L h i n g t o d o u i t h t r a d e s e c r e t s .
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4479
Thcy deal rtrictly rith confidentlel
infonation. Labor Code 2860 and itr rnnotetimr rakc ao
lantton rhatloever of tradc lecretr ud ro knor that trade
recrtta and custorar l lrts are cntlrcly dif,fcrcnt lr?rs.
AF I have eaid I harc tbcrc. I rn happy to citr tbee ln ttrc
rccordr lf Iour Honor plcere, Lf hc rants ro to.
tHE COURtT Arc there Californie aercr?
llR. EELLERT fbele are Celifornia crae!. I bcgan
ritb Lebor Codc Scction 2860.
TEE COURT: AII right, give rB lrour ca8cs.
MIl. UELLERT Fi.ret crse f have Ls tlng v. lrclf ic
Viterain Corpor.reion, 256 CaI.Ap'. 2d. 8111, end f erk that
Iour Bonor look apcciflcally to haadnoie I of ttrat cara l!
nll t Llrr body of th€ case rl:ich deals rlth headnota I
viich talks about confidenblal infornrtion.
I rlso have Lhe case of Greenly v. Coopcr,
77 Crl.Ap.3d. 382. Thir rgaln dorls uitn confl,donthl
latonaLion, ndtcs ao lentlon of trads tecrets-
I furLbcr have Lhe case of Ernst I Brnst v.
Carl,ronr 247 Ca)-.l*r.zd, 125.
I alro heve rn ALR eltrtlon.
TilE COURTI 'rtell donrt bother glvlng n that bccaure
I donrt hevs any ALR.
!tR,. BE,LLERI Those ere the threa carcr thrt I havc
vhlch I found juet lreeterdty cvenlr.g, Your Honor.
TEE CO0Rfg tfhat uerG tTour c.ie! egalnl llt. ?lynn? I
hevc already goL theil bech tlrerc toneuharc.
tlR. SLIullr Allcn vs. Jordanoe, rhlch ir 52 Cel.Ap.3d -
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I lm aorry , l �25 CaI ReporLer at 31.
THE COUF.T: I don ' t have Cal ReporLcr .
! [R . FLYNN: There i s a Ca I .Ap . c iLe on th ie ' t oo .
T h a t i E 5 2 C a I . A p . 3 o , a t 1 6 0 .
B rown v . F rsese , rh i ch i s a t 28 Ce l .Ap .2d t
508; t f iJ . l ianson V. Super ior Cour t , whlc t r is 148 Cal Repor ter
3 9 .
l .BE COURTT I don ' t have Cal Repor ter .
HR. ELYl i l$ : I r i l l g ive you the copy of the case,
Iour Honor.
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33
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THE COURIT Ohay.
!18 . FLYHNT I have go t revera l oLharg . I t l l g lve the
clerk the copies of the cases. They are t rongst ny papcra
h e r e .
! lR. HELLERT As rc l l r your lonor t At . Flynn !ay6 the
conLrac t rh ich yae a lgned ras e lgned ag I cond l t lon o f ,
r ruppoae, l , l r . Schonerre Leaving or tcrninat lng hlr enploynent
r l th Author Serv iees IncorSrora ted .
Tbe cont rac t yas r igned on August 23rd , lgg2 .
And r understand trr . schoner worhcd for qui te sorne t lne for
Author sarv icca a f tc r th ia po in t in t ine . r th ink he rag
erelgned vl th in a coupre of aont.hs ef ter the lncept lon of
hle cnployn€nt.
I have the or lg lnal of that nhich I an happy to
shov you. I rouJ.d l ike to present th i ,e to the Court .
TBE COURT r t {e I l l r€cegs unt i } I r 30 .
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f r lE2
!lR- lIARRrsr only oa behalf of tbe church, yotrr
Honorl just to LndLcrte that whatever happencd in 1982 lneofar
rs financlal treneactions of L. Ron Hubbard, rhould not
have - -- vra Dot a part of the defense ia thlr cese, ro the
csurt rhould consldcr 352 and relcvant considentionr. He
had dready leff, Dccembcr rgl.
tfr. PLYITN: !1r. Echoner uill teot,lfy thaL the pcrjonel
oflice of L. Ron ilubbarrJ becane Author gervicerr rac. and
vill tost,ify - -
t{R. HAI(RIS: Anythi.ng before
TIIE couRTr tctrs Fc aet axGrcircd. Lotrc teke e
Flca. l uat l l 1r30.
(AE 12:00 noon I recGca ras takan sntl.l
l :30 p. [1. of the atsG dey.)
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I,oS AI{GELES, CALIFORNIAT TUESDAY, JINE S, l9g{; l :32 p.tt t .
o0o
1ts8 couRT: Alr right. r{e ar€ beck ln 3csgion.
Counsel lre preaenL.
I{ell f have reviewcd the authorities and I raa
somevhat nonplursed to think Lhat thcra night be roec
$tatut! thrt rould preclude the cvldence that vae cither
fraudulcDt or a crlme to be ruppresred. 6o r thlnk r bettcr
looh rt thcse Battera a li,Lt.le rcr€ carefully, rnd the carea
all citad by counsel for the AuLhor Eervicee dear yith
trade Bocreta, matterg which would be lagal to posscas by
rn onployer, and that obvloucly gcts into thc area of unfair
conpetit ioa, generally uattcrr of that nrture.
Obviouely lt seanr to Ee that if en raployee
had knowrcdge of fraudurent activity or crininal actlvity,
conduct rhich was a fraud upon creditora or a fraud upon
ehareholders or clientr of a particular buginerc, the law
couldnrt countenance or lolerate that type of a statute
prccludlng the testlmony of certal.nly any concept of
Juatice vould perni.t that tlpe of a balancing.
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Ihe prob len f s t l l l have, though, la rca l l y one
of rc levancc l aeeun ing tha t a l l o f us ray tha t - - I bc l l cvc
I an hav lng a l l t t le t roub le ace lng thc ro lcvancy o f l t ,
t l t . F lynn .
l { r . Arna t rong le f t ln r81 , l {c a rc t r l k lng about
rho uas the cnployec, who Has hla onployer l rhat they dld
a f t e r w a r d e , o f c o u r s e , l s l n E e r e s t l n g , b u t i t s t i I I d o e g n r t
sccm to ne to be par t i cu la r ly re levant .
There n igh t be sone oLher fo run tha t tha t n igh t
be appropr la te to ge l ln to .
t taybe you can explain to ne &ore careful ly rhat
the theory o f rc levance is .
t {R. FLINNT There are aeveral iggucs, Iour Eonorr the
crod ib l l i t y o f sevcra l o f the r i tnccses .
THE COURTT t ie l l , I don' t , bave any problen about uhat
you rant, Bo prerent about the c i rcunetanccE under rhlch he
Ief t the organizat , lon or rhatrver he yae subJected to ln the
ray of secur l ty cheek, confcor lonr l , cert ,a ln ly el l of that
rould be rGlrvant, to credlbi l l ty and var louo p€ople have
tcEt i f led and ao fo r th .
8u t the f lnanc la l r l tua t ion a f t ,e r l t r . ArEs t rong
lctt,, the fect tbat troney nay havc gone to t{r. tsubbard and
ney have gonc lega l l y r r donr t knou tha t there ra r neceesar i ry
l f raud on anybody. I rou ld th ink i f i t ras f raudu len t ,
laybe tb€ Intcrnal Revanue agents or thc state govcrnncnt
rou ld be in te rcs tcd . But r donf t knor tha t tha t rca l l y
re la teg to any o f Bhe lesues be fore BE.
l lR. PLINNT the fraud relatcr to the represGnLat lons
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t o t h e p u b l l c a n d t o s c l e n t o l o g l s t s t h a t t { r . H u b b a r d y a s n o r
r e c e i v i n g a n y f u n d s f r o n C h u r c h o r g a n i z a t i o n s .
T H E C O U R T : B u t w e a r e t r y i n g h e r e t h e C h u r c h a g a i n e t
y o u r c l i e n t , n o t w h e t h e r h e m i s u s e d o r c o n v e r t e d t h e s e
d o c u m e n t s , b r e a c h e d t r u s t r s o f o r t h .
I | 1 1 s u s t a i n a n o b j e c t i o n o n r e l e v a n c y g r o u n d s
a a t o t h e e v i d e n c e .
I ' l l c e r t a i n l y o v e r r u l e A u t h o r S e r v i c e e '
o b j e c t i o n s . I t h i n k t h a t i s t o t a l l y o f f b a s e .
l lR. FLYNN : Ca I I l l r . Schomer , p lease .
I w o u l d r a i s e o n e o t h e r a r g u n e n t r y o u r H o n o r , .
t h a t i s , t h e a r g u m e n t o f t t r . F l i n n , t h e r e l i g i o u s e x p e r t a n d
t h e r e c o r d t h a t h e c r e a t e d w i t h r e g a r d t o h i s c o n c l u s i o n s
r s t o t h e r e l i g i o u s n a t u r e o f t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a n d t h e
p o s i t i o n o f 1 , 1 r . H u b b a r d a s a r e l i g i o u s l e a d e r a n d v i t h r e g a r d
t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t b a s e d o n h i s r e s e a r c h a n d a n a l y s i s ,
e v e n t h o u g h h e a d n i t t e d t h a r i f t h e p o p e s t o l e c h u r e h f u n d s ,
i t w o u l d n o l b e s a n c t l o n e d u n d e r e i t h e r e c c l e s l a s t i c a l o r
c i v i l L a w .
He d id c rea te gornewhat o f a record w i th regard
t o h i s v i e w t h a t t h e h i e r a r c h i c a l . s t r u c t u r e o f t h e C h u r c h
o f S c i e n t o l o g y w a s a k l n t o t h e h i e r a r c h i c a l s i r u c t u r e o f t h e
R o m a n C a t h o l i c C h u r c h .
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And on that basis he arrlved ar al l klada
of concJ.uaions, moat of r, , lr ich 1 thought Here eonertrat - -
?Ef, couRT: t{e11, there ie nothlng that nyr tbet yar
cen't have r rerlglous organizaLlon thar.. operates to
endou the fount lcr wi - t i r n i l l lons of c lo i lars . I f i t yuren. t
for tax lass uhich lo ;et incg creat{e ar t i f lc iar coneept , r ,
certalnly there cau be no conslclerat. lon in that rcglrd.
At. Lhc aexrc trgre, it na1' be that in ronc
oLher forua th is ev jc lence ls re levant , buL r dcn, t roe
It ie terr ibly rercvanL here. rfhaL Dr. Fl. lnn ral.d about thrt
r dontt tbinh ctiangres vh-rther or iroL it- wo.ld bc a rel lg!,oa.
Obviousl l ' . Francis of Ass ls i , f thought that
raa rather unusrra l conSrar ing h im to Francie of AsaLsl rs
rw of poverty. H€ knoi. thit !{r. Hubbrard doosnrt bel leva ln
poverty for hin;.: l f . That.rs boen dcnxst.rrrtcrl b1' tcetLnony
hc re .
At- an:r raLo, Icttl procecri.
HOHAP.D D. SC[{O!TT.R,
call,ed as t vltnass on behelf of the cefense in surrebuttal,
uas 8rorn &nd testlf ieC as fcllol.s;
TEI cLERr: B.e serLec on the witness stand. plcarc
gtate your namc snd rpell your 1aat nano.
TBE HITilESS : Howari D . Eehorre r, S-c{r-€_-D_{_-t.
Flthin tbe cburch r ras ruore eomrnonly knoun as Eoner 6chocr,
rblch ls really an aka.
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f t l S 7
DIRECT E>3}:II.]ATI oIJ
BY T.4R - FLYI{N :
0 rr 'hen drd you f irst becorne invor.ved wit-tr the
Church of Sc iento logy, Hr . Schoner .?
A Fi rs t t inc r l : r rer - about i t , r went Lo a lecturc ,
wa6 around Hay of 1966.
0 And uhen did you leave?
A I le f t - around the Z3rd of l lecenbcr , LggZ.
0 And rihen you left, who Here you rmployed by?
A Author Serrrrces Incorporated.
A AnC when d.id you begir emp,loyrnent with
Author Servl.ces fncorporaLed?
A In l a te Hr rch o f 1962 ,
0 Now pr ior to that t lne tbat you held a post
in the Sea Organizat ion?
A f hat:, nurterous posts that I held. f jolned
the sea org rrourr<l the beglnning of scptember: 1970, and fron
that t irne forrord unti l r rrent to Author services in late
l {areh of '82, there uere nany pcsts that I he ld.
0 And uhat uere lone of thc posts?
A I was ilre eibics officer at AS HO for a good
aumbcr of nontho. r was the org officer of AS Bo foundatl.on
for r nunber of months. r t.'as the cope officer ln llco and
Flag shen it was over in the ltediterranean.
I was the axternal communications for a ycar
o r 80 .
I rae on FLag at Clcarwater. I was the
dircctor RA!|, R-A-$, Recorda, Assets rnd uaterlel for f lvc
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ycarr vbcn the rhtp e.D€ or pcople lcft the ahlp and noved
to Clcarvater.
O Now on board! the ehip lere you lvare of the
eondltl,ons of tbe RpF?
A Yes, I vas becauee f uas rrr lgned to tha RpF.
O And rhat rcrc thc condltlons ln the RpF
on board thc rhip?
A l?ellr t ! far as I vag concerned, they $ere
unbearabre. Hy frcedoo ras danled ne. r couldn't telk to
nnbcre of the crew.
fe llvcd in eubttandard berthing. ?he food
re rte vae leftovarc. of course w€ had - - there uagnrt
ruch er thlng as tlre off. lte rere ll.nlted to revgn hours a
alght t laep.
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A 9 i h a t H e r e t h e p h y s i e a l c o n d i t i o n s o f t h e a r e a
t h a t y o u r e r e r e q u i r e d t o s t a y i n ?
A F l l t . h y l n d , a c t u a l l y , r e r e r c t o r a t l n e b e r t h e d
l n a n l r e a w h l c h w a s c a l l e d l o w e r h o l d t l o . I o f t b e s h i p r h l c h
v a s u s e d f o r s t . o r a g e . A n d l t h a d l i k e a n a u x i l l a r y p a r t o f
sn anchor cha ln tha t i t ueed the anchor and bores . There
uefe cockroaches and excess rus t and so fo r th .
o And werc there na t t rcsaes on the f roor rnd r re re
t h c y f l l t h y ?
A T h e r e u e r e n a t t r c g g e e I t h i n k t h e y w e r e g o i n g
to bc th roun ou t . And then r t th the concept o f the RpFl they
kept thcn . And these yere used fo r the Rpp to s leep on .
A Dur lng tha t per lod o f t lae d id you observe
l l r . Eubbard nanag ing sc len to logy organ iza t ions th roughout
t h e w o r l d ?
A There was never a t i rne tha t , I ras on the sh ip
t h a t r d l d n o t s € e h i n n a n a g t n g s c i e n t o l o g y o r g a n i z a t l o n s .
There wasnrb anyBh lng on the sh ip tha t yen t on
f ron peraonne l ass lgnnents , the chooe ing - - the accept lng
of the nca l &enua - - when r uorked ln the programs Bureau,
a l I eva lua t ions to r the sc lcn to logy orge th roughout the wor ld
vhlch rrere being nanaged by the Hanagenent org aboard the
sh lp l a l l the evaruat lone had to go up th rough h i rn fo r
s l g n a t u r c .
A n y n l a e l o n e , w h l c h t h e r e w e r e a n u l t l t u d e o f
u lee long, tha t wou ld go ou t ueek ly to var ious orgs th roughout
the ro r ld re re a l l approved by h in r ,
A l l f lnances eere approved by h tn r . There wasnr t ,
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a n y t h l n g t h a t r e a l l y v a e n o t a p p r o v e d b y h t m a n d w a s n ' t 6 e e n
b y h l m l n c l u d l n g h i e r e s e a r c h .
Y o u k n o w r m a y b e t h e r e w a s a n e h r p r o c e s s , a u d i t i n g
p r o c e s s r t h a t h e w a s d e v e l o p i n g a n d a o f o r t h .
I m e a n t h l s r a s o n e t h l n g I a d m l r e d b e c a u s e h e
w a s c a p a b l e o f d o l n g a o n a n y d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s . A n d h e n e v e r
r e l l n q u l e h e d c o n t r o l o v e r a n y t h i n g .
I t l s l l k e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w e n t o D r h e d i d o r
h a d h l e f i n g e r l n .
0 N o w , d 1 d y o u o b s e r v e i r r a t l o n a l a n d a b u s i v e
behav lo r on board the eh lp by Hr . Hubbard?
A S e v e r a l t i m e s , I d l d .
A A n d d i d h e a n e a r a n d c u r 8 e a t , f o r l n s t a n c e ,
y o u n g g l r l s ?
A very abus ive language. r can remember one t ime
on the br ldge - -
A Hhat type of language?
THB COURT: What l s the re levancy o f h is language,
counse l?
THE I I ITNESST I t wou ld be o f the norse k lnd .
T H E C O U R T : r r l l s t r i k e t t . r t h i n k i t i s i r r e r e v a n t .
0 BY l tR. FLYNNT Going up t ,o 1982 did you aee some
photographs in t ,he possess ion o f Ter r i Gamboa?
A Yes. r renember see ing an a lbum tha t had uedd ing
photographs o f Ger ry Armst rong and a t tha t t lme Ter r i
Arns t , rong. They were in a b inder ,
And tha t I th ink tha t a f te rnoon when I le f t
r s a w T e r r t - - n o t r e r r l - - G e r r y A r n s t r o n g r e w l f e J o c e l y n ,
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119 L
O m a r G a r r i s o n a n d h l s w i f e , g o i n g l n t o t h e C l t O b u i l d i n g w b e r e
f w a s w o r k l n g .
A n d t h e n s e v e r a l w e e k s l a t e r l n T e r r i G a m b o a a n d
D a v i d I ' l i s c a v i g e ' s o f f i c e f s a n s o n e o t h e r p h o t o g r a p h s t h a t
H e r e L R H w h e n h e w a s N e w Y o r k o f f t h e s h i p .
0 A n d a r e y o u c e r t a l n t h a t y o u 8 a w t h e e e o t h e r
p h o t o g r a p h s l n T e r r i G a m b o a ' s o f f i c e a f t e r y o u s a w G e r a l d
A r n e t r o n g v i s i t t h e C H O b u i l d l n g ?
A N o d o u b t a b o u t l t . T h e r e w e r e t w o s e t s o f
p h o L o g r a p h s . O n e w a s t h e a l b u m w h i c h w a s G e r r y t s w e d d i n g ,
G e r r y a n d T e r r i r s w e d o i n g a b o a r d t h e s h i p .
T h e o t h e r s w e r e l o o s e p h o t o s t i n f a c t , T e r r i h a d
eyen ment ioned to peop le tha t $ere there and nyse l f tha t
vere look ing a t thenr , tha t these uere the ones she had go tben
f r o m G e r r y A r m s t r o n g .
0 Le t me ehow you what has been marked as
e x h i b i t D D D ; d o y o u r e c o g n i z e t h a t , H E . S c h o m e r ?
A Yes, Th is l s one o f the photographs tha t I saw
o n T e r r l ' g d e s k .
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4492
0 And
A I was 6ort of lrorrif ieo becauae LBH didnrt
exactly look very presentar\le. lL uasn'i rea]]y an imrrge-t1pa
pholograph that r an sure he would €vcr approv€ bei,ng lcen
by pubr ic or baEic.r l ly anyone . r don,t knos r f hc ever
rrculd ev€n have knorriecige that those Herc tlken.
0 All r-i.ghc. Did you eny conversarron yilh
Terri Ganboa as to rho orncd thaee photographr?
A 9{e'11 in the course of the conversaLion rrth
nyself and othor peo;.,Ie in Lhe rootr., it wag EnLion d that
these photographs hac becn gotL.n frocr Gerry Arnatrong.
e hr,d was Klura Dougles' Bue rentLoned?
A Ho.
A has Jaaes Dincalci 'a nan€ nentioneci?
A werl in the l ight becsuse Janes Dincel,ci var
vith LRll rhen he uae olf che ehip shen these photographs *cre
taken' that r knew bccaure r raa on the rhip around that
period of tinc uhen be reft or sa^ae bask to thc rbip, around
Jurt after he latt, and I kner thac Jin Dincalcr rnd enother
fellov had gone wltb bllr or vere uith hin.
0 All righi, Nfii, rhen ygu uent to rork for
AuLhor ssrvices, rnc., vas Lhrt at tlr€ lnccptlon of that
buslness or of that corporation?
A HeU rhen I started, obr ysg. rlutt oolng
lnto being. l{bcther or not lt rag lncorporatod et tbet tiaa,
r rn Dot really furle Te didn't eell it Author Errnricar
rhcn I tlrrt got. th.ro.
I thln} onc r.a3on ytr a poarl,blc - - I donrt
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4493
know l f l t was a poss ib le Lnurement th lng or Dot , but I
ras legal ly s tar t parL of t l re church and r ras actual ry
vorking for Author services because r had never really bccn
re leased f rora the church which Lai .er on r recc ivcd r
document from ltDC tel l lng me that f rrsr fou hnor, on lcavr
and no longer par t o f the chutch.
But I thj-nk rr€ were calling ourgelvls R Accountr
vhlch ras sort of the old nane for the section of tho LRB
Pers PRO of f ice, that par t o f the org or d lv ig ion t t ra t ras
tct up to take car€ of LRHrs lccountg and there uls pcrc pRo
rt the t iure thaL vould handle his pubric relationc.
0 AI I r ight . l {hat vas your post just pr lor to
going to work for Author Serv ices, Inc.?
A I nas the Dlrector of Recordrr Arrett and
tratcr ie l r t the F lag land baee i .u Clean 'ater .
A And 'Lhen you were f lown to California and you
star ted work for ASf?
A l,lo, f drove to Caltfornla bccauge I brougbt
a1L rny posaesslons ri th ma,
O All right. Nou at ASI who rere the other
individuals that you rere rorklng rith utro rorked for Asr?
A Terri Gaiab,-oa was the exeeutlve direetor.
.f{onaan_ S*lfBI, f don't Lnow j.f he was actually ca}lcd as
part of ASr or whatever we called lt at that ti-o , R lcoounta,
but he was handllng the Legal thlng along with Lyran gpurloch.
There tras a Rgn pqq!. who vas thcre. I thlnk
he was sort of looking for sone buildlnga at the tlne for ua
to nove into. r aa not 6ure lf - - r thlnk Becky pool at
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4194
the tr.r!e. ttrrt waa her nrrc. Ehe latar rerried Doug f,ay,
ro rtre bcenc Bccky Hay. She nou rorhg for Author EarvlecB.
the ure there, but I donrt thlnk ehe ras part of Author
Scrvlcee. the vaa pert of thc Special Unit et the tin.
Thcre vae Pat Brlce utro vas LRH Part 8cc.
Thcre uar Julia l{ataon vho I an not .ure vhet hcr rxact
poet rle. lfhere var Frrn Harrlg. I ler baeic tit lc res
R Aceountr at the tlr., but rhc vae rort of ovar the rcncy
116r rnd thc booka lra.l hcr huaband Fred Harri l.
Jln Iraaeaon. Joryca lrracron ras the Org
offl,ccr. Rlchard Tlnklcnbcrg, vho uta thc trcasury tecretary
rhcn I got thcrer rrrde firrt, thcrc vag DavlC llurcavl.ge uho
ril - - rort of ran the vhole lhou, but he veg lort of back
rnd forth bctrccn ClF Int bacruse he yls runnlng Clto Int
rt thc tlnc end Author Eervlcaa or R Accounta.
A Ihen you lay running CHO fntr Yaa that the
organiration to your Inouladgs that rar runnlng the Church
of Sclentology?
A ,Buppoeedly rnrnning thc Church of Eclontology.
I lrter found out thrt they rcrc not rcallyl fl.gureheade,
but they recelvrd thelr ordcre frm David ltuacavige wtro!
rocclvcd hle orderr fron Pat ead Annle BrQqlqer, who recelvod
tholr ordera fro,m LRH.
0 Nov toroe of these individulll, dld you becse
faniltrr wl,th r eorporttlon eallcd Rcllgloue Tcehaology
Ccnter?
A It tras Juet comlng lnto bclng ar I left
Author Servlces.
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0 Did you ever see the Art icles of Incorporation
of Rel ig ious Technology Canter?
A N o .
A Do you have any understanding a6 to vtto
incorporated l t?
! lR. l tAR; l IS: Wel l , i f he d idn ' t see the papers,
Your Honor, i t would clearly be hearsay.
tHE COUR.T: I wi l l eusta in the obJect ion.
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A Hhat d ld you do fo r Author gcrv lceg Inc . ?
A l {hcn r s t ,a rLed r ras a deputy t rcaeury fcc re ta ry
u n d e r D l c k T i n k l e n b e r g .
r ras b rought there becauge o f the fac t tha t they
rere hav ing ro Dany f lape tn the t r€asury l tnee and co
f o r t h .
Threc rcehs lat ,er r rer pronotcd to t r r r rury
tecretary and Rlchard Tlnklenberg Ha8 denoted to depuly
t reaaury l l c rc ta ry . And tha t i s the poat , r had un t l l
l e a v i n g .
A And juee bae lca l l y rha t . uere your du t lee?
A l {e l l , I uaa rcsponelble for any f lnancial
t ran8ac t lons go ing on ln thc o rgan l ra t lon . r t ras ro r t o f
l lke -- r ras ruppoacd to have the -- r r l the knouledge of
every th lng tha t ren t on . BuL, o f course , a lo t o f th lngs
reren ' t to rd to ne or t ,h ings tha t r rou ld t ry to f lnd ou t ,
pcop le d idn ' t bave t lne to cont tnua l l y b r le f ne on uh ich rou ld
l l ke lnc lude a l l o f h lg lnvcr tnenta and ro fo r t ,h .
But bae lca l l , y , hand l lng a l l o f h ls bank .ccounts ,
h a n d l i n g h i s a u d l t s ,
t fhen I ray .h is r . i t rou ld be LRHre l p luc a
fcpara fe cn t l t y ca l led Author gerv lcea uh ich ras the
corpora t lon ge t up to eanage h is a f fa l rs .
O A l l r lgh t . Nowp Juet y€s or Dgr th roughout the
years you uere involved ln the church of sclentology ra8 l t
a lso your unders tand lng tha t L . Ron Subbard had never rece ived
any nonier f ron the Church of Sclcntology?
A Hover 18 fa r as I kncr l t .
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1497
There re re nany po l i cy le t te rs r tany docunenta
or p ronoL iona l p leces tha t Here a lways tha t a lways had,
I c o u l d E o y r a E a s h o r e s t o r y , b u t b y u s i n g t h e v o r d s ' g h o r e
s t o r y r ' b e c a u s e i t s o r t o f d e g r a d e e a l l t t l e b i t b e c a u s e r
shore 6 !o ry nas uaua l ly sonre th ing to ld to foo l ao tseone or
to camouf lage sonre th ing . Becauee when we were on the sh ip r
ue used t ,o use var ious shore s to r ies becauae ue d ldnr t uant
i t to be known tha t ue yere Sc len to log ie t ,s .
0 So the answer i s tha t you a lways undere t .ood tha t
LRH was no t rece iv ing any Sc ien to logy non ies f ronn Sc len to logy
o r g a n i z a t i o n s l l s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A R i g h t .
A And, Jus t yes or Dor rhen you go t to ASI d ld you
f ind that to be conpletely fa lse?
t {R. H.ARRIS: I ob jec t to tha t , Your Honor .
THE COURTT Over ru led .
T tsE WITNESST les , I d id .
A BY HR. FLYNNT Nowr Et aome Po in t in t lu re d id
you te I I the peop le a t ASI tha t you wanted to leave?
A I don ' t , knor l f I cane r igh t ou t and sa id I want
to leave i t was Jus t l l ke I d idn ' t want to be on the pos t
tha t I uas on , the Job tha t I was do ing .
I vas very unhappyr you know. And I d idnr t l i ke
thc work ing cond i . t ions . And I sor t , o f e rpreseed tha t . I
con t lnua l . l y was ask ing fo r he lp r fo r , you knowr I needed
t ,o ge t Fome he lp . I cou ldnrL do i t , ygu knon. There is
s o m e L h i n g w r o n g . I j u s t , r y o u k n o w r c a D f t h a c k i t r c a n r t h a c k
uhat i s go lng on .
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A A n d , l n c i d e n t a l l y , r h a t r e r e y o u r u a g e s a t A S I ?
A I t h i n k w e h a d a b a s e s a l a r y o f $ 1 6 0 w h i c h w e
a c b u a l l y g o t c l e a r s o m e t h i n g l i k e $ I 2 ] a f t e r t a x e e r h l c h r a s
Bo be used to pay fo r - - we]1 . , $20 was !o go to our ren t o f
I i v ing ae the Conp lex wh ich was the Sc ien to logy Conp1ex.
I f w e a t e o u r n e a l s t h e r e w e h a d t o p a y $ I . 7 5
per nea l . I t , was used fo r any ned ica l tha l rc nade need,
any c lo th ing tha l you hac i to buyr e ry p rees ing or c lean ing
o f o u r s u i t s o r f o r o u r g e n e r a l r y o u k n o w , a n y t h i n g e l s e t h a t
w e n e e d e d .
A The noney was taken fo r lhose i tens ou t o f your
wages ?
A N o . f { e u e r e g i v e n a c h e c k f o r 9 } 2 I a n d , y o u k n o u ,
Eome cents . And we were jus t ob l iga ted to e i ther - - you know,
i f He go t s ick r H€ were ob l iga ted to save enough noney ou t
o f t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p o r t , i o n o f i t t o b e u s e d f o r f u t u r e d e n t a l
o r r y o u k n o w , n e d i c a l n e e d s o r v i t a n i n s , u h a t e v e r , A n d w e
were ob l iga ted Lo , you l rnowr g ive $20 a week over to the
organ iza t ion a t the Conp ler .
0 l {as tha t , to your unders tand ing , the min imun wage
at the t ime?
A I r e a l l y d i d n ' t L h i n k o f i t a L t h e t i m e , r t
cou ldnr t i f I f igured how many hours I r ro rked, rh ich vas
p r o b a b l y 8 0 t o 1 0 0 h o u r s a w e e k l I ' m s u r e i t d i d n ' t c q u a l
the min i roum t rage nh ich I know to be $3 .35 or soneLh lng
today .
A AI l r igh t . Nowr c t sone po in t in t ine you were
o r d e r e d i n t o a a e c u r i E y c h e c k ; i s B h a t c o r r e c t ?
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A I h a d s e v e r a l .
0 How nany d id you have wh i l .e you uere a t ASI?
A Two pr io r to leav lng and one 18 I - - rhen I
w a s n r t a t , A S I . I h a d b e e n r e m o v e d f r o n p o s t e n d I h a d i t
over a t the Comp1ex.
A The t i ro you had a t ASI , what happened ln thoee?
A Wel l r t ,he f i r s t one Ha6 ac tua l l y ou t a t CHO In t
w h i c h w a s a l G i l n a n 8 o t S p r i n g s . T h e y s e r e e u s p e c t i n g t h a t
someth ing uas go ingr you know, awry H i th ne , ny po6L
f u n c t i o n s .
I ras no t a 8 te l . l ,a r perEon on pos t and I rasnr t
per fo rn ing the way Dav id t t i scav ige thought I shou ld per fo rm.
And f was awoken up in the n idd le o f the n lgh t ,
l i ke 4 o 'c lock in the norn ing one Sunday morn ing and taken
i n t o a S e c C h e c k w i t . h t h r e e p e o p l e , v i t h J e s s e P r i n c e , w h o
H a 6 E h e a u d i t o r f o r a u h i l e r T e r r i G a m b o a r a n d D o u g H a y .
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lf,trr a vtrlle Jcrc h.d to lurrc end ?rrrl
bccrn tlra audl,tor ead Dog Fay nra tbrrt , ol rhtch tlray
tcpt falllng arlaep oa E. Eoth o! thcn yrr. rltting rcro.l
fron m, not thcrc' Jurt cqhtcly arlorpr rnd lrd havs to
knock on ry dark or go (tndlcettng) nlc nolrcc to veka than
uP.
Of eourus, thcl rGro tr:ytng to tlnd oot rtrat
var golng onr for laor, rtry rrr r aontttLng tbcra rlvertf
on port r lt! overt brlng arfiln frllurc to do lzour Job ea rn
ovcrt of al.rlon bccrurc ygo rr. oalttlng not to do lrotrr
rtcll.r-t lpc Job.
Of corrcr f rr! tlrbbcrgartad ln tbr a.nBG,
flrrt of ell r rre bclag thc trn t^bet lrtrr orD Lnto
brlag, thc trn grng brngod r.a c,beckod brcaurc thrrc rrt
norG then onc pcrron. f,othlng ln pollcy, but thrn to hrne
ry rudltor fall rcloep (oa F.
lhrt ru notblng aryand to thc roc ctrcck thet
happaned around tjc lOth of Octobrr, eround l0 Orclocl rt
ntght rt A8I !t 6f6f Bunrct Boolcyud.
0 fth ul. on thr prrirer of ASI?
A fclr ln thc offlcot ol lgl.
O lnd tblr rer I for proflt corporatton uadar
Cellfornla hu to your undcrrtrndlnE?
I tlrat 1r cornct. t tbtnh r rlr avrn en offl,ccr
becaure r brd rlgncd rorlr documnta rl,th no detr on lt ro thrt
Lf, I rer evrr rcrovcd fron portp th.y cold, ln turn, put
a drtc oo 1t or lf anythlng cvcr happcnadr vtrlch uu !
smon cbsreb pollcy nblch r obsctlTud rvon la clceryatcr
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rlny tfuna.
A lhat happened in thle October sccurlty check?
A We1l, certain e.rents happcr,ed prlor to thet.
?here vas a larqe gold deal that was rurp€ct of golng rour,
a leu hundred thoucand dollars which I hrd no kno,r ' lcdgc of,
shich al l of a rudden t lotrg Hay, rhc uas ray senlor rto rae
r:rponslble, tel ls the Dfi, rhich vas Davld t{ l teavlgs, and hc
Jus t b lew , vas Ju t t - - be wcn t psycho t l c .
Prlor to that he ruppoaedly found out thrt I
hrd ureC r gir l by tbe name of EIIen Reynolds*to do lon€
eudlte oB LRtirr aecounts to brl-ng then uP to date glve
cnough data tc the account$t that wag ulcd by LRHr
l{arty Grlenburg, eo he cor.r ld ft le hlg l9gl tax returnt
vhlch re had. rlready gotten thc araxlrrn nunber of trtcnlionr.
a Fe l l r so - -
A Thesa two thlngs together real Ly turned DIi
lnto a psyeho again. I tr.eatl, it Has llke a eqnoon oceurroncc
e6 far aB I rrae eoncernod bocauge tt is llkr ha arhlblted
thlr Gvery tlrnc f ras ln the off :ce.
a And Davld t'tiscavige heJ-d shat post ln Author
Serv l ce t r f ne .?
A xGll, al l r.ports thae f rrTote up eo LRH
rrould go through hin rurd ?erri Gemboa, Terri being tlra ED
of ASI and Davtd ll,iscavige CoB, Chairnran of thc Eolrdr or
I soold ray Gtrl, one of the tno. Sort of like i! dldnrt really
nake nn:ch di"f ference. He was t-he top dog and there vaa no
doubt that he uas runolng ASI and the chureh.
0 F.11 right, noq'dld Hlscavige ordcr you lnto a
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recur l ty check?
A He insnediately ordered ne lnto a tccurlty ehcck.
I vrq dragged into a roorn the cire of thts vitncss rtend
vhich e lso had a tab la in l t , and then Nan t tarky-ves r i t t ing
across fron rne with the door behind her utich vag olr€n.
There vas naybe about D foot of roon on ny left gide.
AII down the hallvay tbe uhole staff of AEI
sere there, including Terri Ganboa, Nornan Starky, Prt Brl,cc,
Llrnrn Spurlock, David Hiacavige, Fran Harris r Ered l larr le,
Becky Hay,
O Hov long dtd the aecurity check lact?
A Ten hours. f t lasted f rorc about 10 otc lock
l.n the evening to t o'clock in the rnornlng. About 6 orclock
in the rprnlng the gteff of ASI left b*lcauge thcy had to go
out to clNo rnt.
Dur{ng this tine r was just bonbardcd Ylth
theae questions arklng sho wae I rorklng for. uas f rorklng
for the CIA? lfas I a plant? fas I vorking for the FBI?
tlbere ras ell the nnney f rtole. Where are ell the Jccele
f s to le .
David f lscavige rrould sort of peek hls head ln
rtren he would be therc for naybe a half hour end leave. He
vould pe6k hLs head in end look at the meter and Brtr 'Ah hah'
sonethlng r.ad therc. WtraL crl.rnes did you conmit? ihat docs
that nean?i
I t was l lke an ln t ls ' idat . ing type th lng.
Ite said, ' f are going to f ix you.' Put a wad of tobacco
back ln his mouLh. Gave a blt to Norraan, and he
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yas eont inual ly popping in and out . They hrere s t i l l
t r y i ng to f i nd a l l t hese th lngs I had done .
Then, af ter r sorn€vrhere between f i fceen
rn inu tes toa ha l f hou r , he ca rne 1 r , and sa id , "Th i s i s t he IaE t
t lme . Te l l t he t , ru th , Come c lean . '
Prior to that Norman Starky threateneC me
that l f I dldart come clean, the same thi.ng that. happened
to Er ic Wal lery anct to Peter Gi } lar , , vho \dete c i iurch menbers
at Gilu.an Eot Springs, vhich was an int imidation because
tbey apparently trad embezzled rome noney and etole sone
al lver , and they were threatened wi th - - in fact , l t ig
by Hr. Eeller, I ras toldr i t Lenske, Lenake & i iel ler becautc
he hao connect long in the D.Ars of f lce, that thcy r r rc Aolng
to arle sure that I rpent e good deal of tine in Jetl rnd
he ralc, xDonrt worry about the cvidence. He wil l f lnd peoplc
that wil l teeti fy egainst your r io natter what crLmes re come
up u i th . " Otherwlser they rere essent ia l ly say ing that thcy
Here golng to f lnd wi tnesses to per jure themselveg because
I knew I hadn't soonLtted rnyLhing.
Anyray, then he came in at a later time and
apit ln ny face ri th tobacco juice during a sec cbeck' which
ir heresyl t f you want to think of Hubbard as a god and hlc
technologyr and t,hen Norman did tne sanre thing.
O Nornan Starky?
A Nornan Starky did the ealre thingr tnd I hrd
sort, of been good friends with Norman for a good nunber of
yaarr. For a long tiroo he ras the captain of the yacht, Apollot
you know, lnd ve elways had a good relationehip,
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O Now, vas thir accurity check to your kaoulcdge
Lntcnded for you to get somc rplrltuel galn, l{E. 6choer?
A Hell, I ras golng to bc facctiour rnd tay
naybe on lone othcr planet, but lt couldnrt porltbly have
been. There la nothlng tn poliey to thlt day that I knw of
that authorircs or condones e Eang bang rec chcck of nore
than one person. A rec chcck, cven though thcy ray thcy
can ure the deta agalntt you for furthar rctlon, thrre ig
nothlng ln pollcy that tryr nore thur onc pcrlon le there.
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0 A l l r19ht , . Now - -
A And g l t ln your face ls , you know, thaL 1e - -
u e l l , I h a v e a l r e a d y e a i d l t . S o - -
A Now, ras I ' l rE. Ganboo preaent throughout Do8! of
the aecur l ty check l
A She vae preren t th rough Eost o f t t and knew I
uas there f ron 10 orc lock uhen they 8 ta r ted un t , i l they le f t
to go t ,o Cl lO lnt to the resC of the staf f at 5 orclock ln
t h e n o r n i n g .
So hcr teg t inony tha t , i t on ly las ted an hour ras
BS, conp le te ly fabr ica ted .
A And l l r , Spur loch , HaB he Ehere th rougb no6t o f
i r ?
A I Jue t aaw h ln once or t r l ce . He never rc tua l l y
c rne c lose t ,o Ea and f i red ques t lone l l ke the res t o f the
staf f Yere dolng and told to do and blaning ae f ,or poeslbly,
you knor, our gro88 lncone to LFIH being dovn and, you know,
that possible losg of bonuges that uae going to be lset that
ras noney out of thctr pockets becauge of bonugee that they
nou ldn ' t , nake.
A HerG you fan i l la r w i th a c l tua t ion ln wh ich
.Ianes Isaacton under porer of attorney for LRE had logt 8o!ne
aoney in an lnvestnent?
A Y E 8 .
0 And dld L. Ron Subbard that ceveral hundred
thousand dol lar logs ln the lnvestnentE be bl l ted to J l r r
Isaacgon?
A leg. I rar the docunents.
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l , lR. HARRIST l lhat ls the relevance?
I n o v e t o s t r i k e i t , y o u r H o n o r .
T tsE COURT: t {ha t i s the re }evance, counee l?
f , lR . FLYNNT Cont ro l , your Honor . These peop le a l l were
s u p p o s e d l y w o r k i n g f o r a n o r g a n i z a t i o n c a l l e d A S I ; a t t h e
aane t in re they were runn ing the church o f sc ien to logy . And
h e r e i s t h e c l i e n t o f t h e c o r p o r a t i o n A S r b i ] l i n g o n e o f t h e
enp loyees fo r los t inves tnents ,
THE COURTT l ihen d id th i6 purpor ted ly happen? t {as th is
a f t e r y o u w e r e a ! A S I ?
THE WITNESST Yes. Th is was dur ing the t i rue I was a t
A S I .
T H E C O U R T : I r l l f e t t h e a n s w e r e t a n d .
0 BY UR. FLYNN: Dur ing the per iod o f t ine - -
a f te r the secur i ty check yere you locked up?
A Yes. I r las locke< i up under guard fo r the nexE
two days .
0 I ' lho was the guard?
A I t w a s a c t u a l l y a n a u d i t o r , H i s n a m e s l i p s m y
n ind r lgh t now. I p robab ly have i t ln ny b r ie fcase tha t I
u ro te l t down. But I an no t gureo
But he rea l l y d idnr t , have any knowledge o f why
he was guard ing me. But he was
A At sone point in t ine did you nanage to lcave?
A Yes. On Sunday norn ing , he - - wh i le I rae ln
the shower he sa id he was go ing down to change c lo thes because
he thought he was guard ing ne fo r aone ep i r i tua l rea8on,
ao I cou ld ge t aome good res t to fu r ther ny sp i r i tua l re lease
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4507
B h r o u g h a u d i t l n g .
0 D i d h e t e l l y o u t n a r ?
A l e s , h e d i d .
0 A 1 1 r i g h t ,
A And the minu te he to ld me tha t and I heard the
door s ram, r go t ou t o f the shower r go t d ressed and go t the
h e l l o u t o f t h e r e .
A i {here d id you go?
A I w e n t t o a f r i e n d o f n i n e ' s h o u s e r O l i v i a
l iashour s .
A Had you le f t a l l your be long ings beh ind?
A te f t w i th the c lo t ,hes on ny back .
A At some t ime d id you re tu rn bo ge t your
be long ings ?
A h l e l l , I c a l l e d u p N a n S L a r k e y , w h o w a s t h e
o r g a n i z a t i o n o f t i c e r , a n d a c t u a l l y t h e o n l y o n e t h a t s o u l d
be around because everybooy c lse had gone around t ,o G i lu ran
Bob spr ings i r reached her a t Asr and to ld her r was no t
b lowing per Be i I had jus t had t .o go ou t ano geb aome
ext ,e r io r iza t ion because r was in fear o f whaE had to happen l
rha t uas go ing t ,o happen co ne . r hac l to th ink th inga over .
She lnmed ia te ly s ta rEer i a t tack ing ne and to ld
ne fha t a r l 0 f c t10 was ou t look lng fo r ne ; r shou ld ge t my
ass back immedia te ly .
I s a i d , ' W a i t a m i n u t e . r
She kept spout, ing out at r re.
I s a i o , ' I r l l b e b a c k s o m e t i m e 1 a E e r . ,
A H h a t w a s y o u r f e a r r M l . S c h o m e r ?
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A I was i n fea r o f ny l l f e , knon ing I had been Sec
C h e c k e d f o r I 0 h o u r s , n o t a l l o w e d t o g e t u p t o g o t o t h e
b a t h r o o m i n o t a l l o w e d t o s l e e p ; n o t a l l o w e d t o h a v e a d r i n k
o f w a L e r ; n o L a l J o w e d a n y t h i n g , j u s t q u e 6 t i o n s f i r l n g a t l t e .
Y o u t e l l n e w h a t I ' m s u p p o s e d t o h a v e d o n e , a n d
I ' 1 1 t e l l y o u i f I d i d i t o r n o t .
A n d t h e y w o u l d n ' t , a l . l o w n e t h a t t y p e o f a t h l n g .
I d i d n r t k n o w w h a t t h e y w o u l d d o . A n d , y o u k n o v , k n o w i n g
o f t h i n g s l i k e I h a d n e n t i o n e d a b o u t , w e l l , t h e t h r e a t t h a t
Nornan S ta rky nade to ne abou t he L /as go ing to pu t ne i n j a i l
and they were go ing to th row the key away and have these
w l t n e s s e s s a y w h a t I s u p p o s e d l y d i d , E o b e c o n v i c t e d o r
w h a t e v e r , I m e a n , t h e r e a r e D a n y ; D d n t t h i n g s t n c l u d i n g n e
b e i n g a s s a s s i n a t e d o r w i p e d o u t , y o u k n o w , t h a t e n t e r e d n y
n i n d .
A A I l r i g h t , .
Now, were you fea r fu l t ha t t hey wou ld cone and
g e t y o u i f y o u d i d n ' U c o m e b a c k ?
A I knew i f Ehey knew where I ras a t t he t ime they
wou ld come and ge t ne .
l l'ntilt
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?hen rtret heppcned?
I yrc - - rtran I hunE up tbc Pbonc, f strrort of trcabring end r dtdnrt rcally tnow rhat r rargolng to do, rnd tlran r dccidrd that r nr gorng to go _ _I rre golng to flGG thc cLty for a vhilc, rnd I redert'ryrtl0ne to go dovn to *ir't tO rtry rrth ny brothrr,end r oarrrd ry brotlrcr up rnd r '1d r *t coalng ln thatrrcnlag rld thrt tf d b. dtrn to rcc hin.
0 And thon rbet hrpp*rod aftcr that?A Tbcn I llnt tor e rlda rLth ollvla. Icnt
ero to ttrc buch. I rer Jurt trylng to drrtlnulrtc rltttlG r bit' rad n urro rrdlng rround ln ry car rnd on tbcrey brck ry sar brokc ddn rad thc fucl pury url brokcn.
A llll .t rat point _ _
A r p.rhaar ry car rnd t[at cvcnlng rhe toorr rato thr tLrport or, DC)1 rhe dldnrt trhc le. Anotbcr grl thatrrr vlrltrng cln to vrsrt hcr took D to tha rlrport, andI f tcd to ttlrnl.
O t{or et totr polnt dld you rct,urn?
A Y.et, I dl.d.
O And rtrln dld you nturn?
I I roturncd l0 daya lrter.
O And for rtrat pqrpo.c.dld you rGturn?A follr beeaulr Teri Ganboe _ _ nll , Jy
deugrhtcre uho re rttlt rn tha cro tn Bclcntorogv to tbrrdatcr callcd E Up aad rrhed nc rhat rre happonr.ng bccauacI had told bar I rat leav!.ngr rnd she called ne up and toldrc I thould sona back.
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Then, lerrl Gamboa got on the phone and told
me that I should come beck lnmediately, and I told her vcl l
Ird thlnk about. l"t , But f had planned on eoming back Bev.n
d a y s l a t e r .
A Terri Garnhoa was with your daughter when thle
took p lace?
A Yes .
O Dld you get concarned for the recurLty of your
daughter ?
A Oh, yeah. I raal ly dldn't hnotr rhet vae golng
o!r. l{y daughter, vho ras actually rorking a6 a church
rcpret€ntative ln ASI nt the time to receive comnunleatlons
betreen the church and ASI, and they had it rorked out sonc
say to lt rarnft Bort of an i.auren€nt eltuatlon, but rhe
Iatcr ras l lrcd or kicked out of AsI for being a sreurity
r i c k .
0 So you roturncd to ASI. Thcn shet happcned?
A f rcturned to ASI. I yaa under trtled * - not
arned guard. I vas put under guard, of which f staycd untLl
bas i ca l l y I l c f t .
A Hos long Ycre you undcr guard?
A HeIl I left the 23rd of Decenberr rDd thls - -
I cane back around the 10th of Noveaber, telllng thorn tbat
f bad to b€ - - I had to bc ln Boulder beceusc I lrad told
Fy siatcr I was going to be there for Thankrglving. I yaa
ln sucb fcar of rny llfe that I even told ny eltter rfro
happened to bc coaring dorn to vlgit ny brotherr rho ataycd
vith ny brothcr ln Plorlda, that l f I didnft cal l her cvery
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otlrer nlght tbet rhe rhould call thG L.A. porlcc Deprrtrnt
rnd trrr than that r yar ktdnappcd end bclng hcld ceptlvc
ln the Corplcr.
O H o w - -
A Ihlch thcy dtdnrt hnow at al. l durlag the
tlno that r rar - - r didntt urc tbat rB r thrcat to thcn
to rtop thrn fron holding n.
O Ho,n, throtrghout thls pcrlod of tinc lt rer
your undcrrtending thrt you r!r. rn cryroyce of a for profit
corlrontlon?
A Yct. fEI dcfinttcly ras, right.
O AII rlght, Ecryl Jutt vrry brlcfly, vac tbere
a ccunl,cation ltDr, e dircct comunlcation rlnk to
Xery Euc Uubbrrd fron ASI tbilc you rtre thcrc?
A lll, !rny, aycry ue€k.
0 Aad did en lndivldual nancd Ncvl.l potter
brlng bcr omunlcatione to you?
A Yclr rny cmunlcatlon thet ntght havc to go
to LRB or - - rculd oo. frorn ber vla hi,n end rould be glven
to tcrrl Ganboa or to Dt{. urually Terri bccauae Dtd uasnrt
therc r11 tho tilc rnd enythlng that bad to go to ber ucnt
vlr hin beck to tlary Buc, rnd I Lnow thlr t!! - - f gav
varl.our docuncnta. r heard Dlt aad Nornen Btarky end Tcrri
Ganboa t.lk ycry derrogatorlly about hcr, uaing very filthy
lrnguage, calll,ng - -
O But thcrc raa a dlrcct comsunlcatlon ltnk?
A Yog.
O lfee tharc lny coruroarclal nail reryice lnvolved?
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A Io crercial nall acrvice.
A tsae thrrs a dircct cmnuaicetiona llnk to
L, Ron Hubbard?
A Drf in i te ly raa.
O t*rat rar that?
A HelI r tvG(t reek ye urote gur raports aad re
3vln nrdc r trp. that nnt up to LRH of A5r rtaff rectlnga,
trlling hin - - rvcry lrcrton uould tell hln of tbe rinds ead
thc flrpa for the rrek rnd the rtatr end eo forth. $Grd
bc up ell thunday ntght rrLti,ng r€portg to hln vtrich rere
tlron eritiguad by snr rcoiors rnd Dt{ end ?errl, r rpd then
lrtrr Pet Brockcr out rt cHo rnt rt Giraan Hot gprings.
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And then i t , rould go to I f iH; ln fact , a rout lng
uaa noL t ,o LRH, bu t r g f courEe, they a l rayr bad thc r t t c r l sk
uhlch neant LR.B. so that i f anybody found i t , l t could n€ver
r ra l l y be proved bhat lha t $a6, you know, tha t . l t ren t to
h fun . 8u t the as ter lsk raa h ln . And any th lng tha t cano back
fron hinr, you knou, had the aster iex doun at the botton of
lhe t rcport .
But aany t inee there rere rGportg thab I youl .d
ur l le tha t vou ld cone back and thcn b ls bandwr i t ing rou ld
be a ! the top rh i ,ch Ls , you knou, very o ls t ingu ishab le ,
s a y l n g r y o [ l i n o w , r v e r y u e l l d o n e r ' 0 r r r i t l n g t s o o r t h r e e
I lnes or rometh ing ln h is handwr l t ingr you knou.
arCpor ts
A
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i {bat uere the actual c l rcunstances rhereby theae
eere colJected and t , raneni t ted?
The clrcurnatances?
Right, And rherc did you go and rhat dtd you
do?
A t {e l l , Gyory reek on Tbursday a f te r 2 o rc lock ,
rhlch ras the cnd of the sciqntology stat per iodr u€ nourd
f ln ieh o f f our ro rk reck and r r i te our repor ts .
One bl ,g th ing Ehat I had to do was i bad thts
transact ion and balance gheet rhlch concerned alr of LRHrs
aseets ant i any rnonles that uere received that, reek and rhat
bEnk accounLs and so forth they uent, ln!o; p lus ny veekly
report of what th ings that r had done dur lng the rsrk and
uhat p ro jec t r rae norh ing on ar l ven t - - a f te r r f ln lshed
wrl t lng Lhenr then they nourd go to ny renlor, And r had
t ro a t t i ,nee . r had d l f fe ren t - - r nean ln i t ta l ry l t ras
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451 1
Fran Bar r ls . And la te r t t became Doug Hay. And f ro rn h l rn
l t vou ld go to Ter r i Gamboa and f rom her i t wou ld go to D l ' l .
And then he wourd rev iew a1r o f the repor ts and then ne were
out a t c l lo rn t , he wou ld take thern a l l ln a box because they
a l l went in a epec la l box . And he wou ld take them to a cabana
a l G i lman Hot Spr lnge where pa t , Broeker Ha6.
I know Pat Broeker was there because I ne t w i th
h l n p e r a o n a l l y l n L h a t c a b a n a .
BuE o f ten when I vas go ing down to the cant ina
t o e a t , l n t h e d a r k n e e s r r o u l d l o o k t h r o u g h t h e b l i n d a n d
t e e h i m i n t h e r e t a l k l n g t o T e r r l G a m b o a , N o r m a n s t a r k y , a n d
Of ten Lyman Spur lock .
And I knew they yould then have to go up to LRH
becauge they eane back , you know, to ASI . And LRH had 6een
them and wr l t ten commenta or wro te anoLher repor t back to
n e b e l l l n g n e w h a t t o d o r y o u k n o w , f o t t h e n e x t w e e k , t h a t
type o f th ing .
And th is was go lng on on a reek ly bas is?
O n a w e e k l y b a s i s .
There were a lso sone t imes checks tha t I wou ld
A
have to wr i te , a CSW to
f r o n e l t h e r h i s f o r e l g n
ASI accounts to be used
lnvestments or naybe to
broker account where h is
A Now, was ASI
tha t t ime fo r management
l { R . H A R R I S T f f l . l
LRH so tha t noney cou ld be t rans fer red
accounts 0 r h ls 10ca1 accounts to
t o e l t h e r p a y h t s b t l l s o r f o r
open up a new bank acsount or a new
s l g n a t u r e w o u l d b e r e q u i r e d .
b i l l i n g O r g s a r o u n d t h e y o r l d a r
du t ies fo r the Church?
o b J e c t t o t h a t , Y o u r R o n o r .
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T H E C O U R T T I t h t n k I r 1 1 s u e t a l n t h e o b J e c l i o n .
H R . F L Y N N : T h a t i a a l l I h a v e , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURTT You nay cross-exanine.
M R . F L Y N N : O n e o t h e r q u e a t i o n , I o u r H o n o r .
0 t {hen d ld you f i rs t Eeet ne or ta lk to ne '
M r . S c h o n e r ?
A The f i rs t t ine I ne t you uag
t {ha t le today? I donr t remember uhat day i t iE .
Tuceday. I DeL you Sunday n lgh t . I ne t you la te
Sunday a f te rnoon when f cane ln to Los Ange les .
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A tnd shen did you first talk to ne?
A I f iret talked to you, I thinkr lut Friday
vhen you calred rnd arkcd lf r rourd cose fonard end
tcetlfy in thle ca6c.
l{R. ELINbtl thank you.
TttE COURTT All r ight, ! tr. f larr isr tou tr y crors_
axlnine.
tlR. HARRIST Thrnh your your Bgnor.
CRO86_SXAXINATION
BY ltR. HARRIST
A Hr. Schcroer, I teke rt that you don,t clre for
tlr. lllrcevlge?
A You hnow, I can ttlll rey tSat par Hubberdre
tcchnologyl tb.t ttrere ic ros€ besic good i.n cveryone.
o 6o thcre lr a r i t t le b1t of good r,n Hlrcavige,
but you doa.t cere for hin?
A I could ny I don,t cari for you clchcr for
you bcing - -
A The eLtora€y for the church?
A Attorney for the church or Dorae of thcre
falrahoodr thit I hcer belng talLcd abouL.
A H e l l - -
A I an not' gorng to coue out and cay I bate
tl'r. Hiecavige. ThaL is not, you knou, r ln tur. thcre ir
toot good ln hin. r en sure Eayt€ he uas doing it for sorc
reaton. I an noL gure.
Could I get a drink ef b-rter?
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45L7
THE couRT: YeEr the cour t a t tendant wi l l get you a
dr ink of water .
O BY t {R. HARRIS: you were an eth ics of f icer
aboard the rhip; irere you?
A N o , I s a s n o t .
A At AS HO?
A y e s , I w a s .
a And duri.ng ttre perl.od that. you rnBre en ethicr
officer r teke it that you epplLed cthics Lo the best of lrour
abll t ty to help people i Ls Lhat correct?
A yea t l ia t rg correct .
0 And when you uere CHO Cope Officer, fro,a tl.nc
to tlae you had to perforn ethice functions; ie that corroct?
A R i g h L .
0 I tal<e it you have been a Chaplain at aotse
polnt?
A lou take it wrong. Nol f have never been a
Chapla in.
a Never been a Chaplain.
A Rut' I r.n a mi.nister of the church.
O A11 right, anci, as far as what happened ln the
RPF aboard the shipl you obviousry continued working after
you trad graduated from that on the rhipl ig that correct?
A I guess you could say yea. Otherwls€ from
that point forvard r wouldn't trave been in the church. r
rould have been off the ship.
A WelI i t uaan't your lntention vhllc you uere
ln tha RPF to leave the church; uraa ir?
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A N o .
O I t wae
A r thought fron tlnc to tlme that maybe it night
Dot be wor th i t .
0 But, in any event, whlle you yere aboard the
shlp and Bo on, you rere e dedicated sc ientorogis t ; is that
correct?
A Ycs, but there ig extenuat ing c i rcun ' tances.
Aboard the rhip r couldn't leave if r wanted to becauae my
passport yas locked up.
0 Did you ask enybody to leave at any tlne?
A No , I d id no t .
o And there rere peopre ttrat did reave the rhip
vhi le you uere aboard l isn ' t that correct?
A Yes, blar, cl inbed dorn the anchor chain or
dorn thc rrt.guards or the r inesr or when they uere going
out on a job, Just never canDe back. I don't think I kney
of any - - there vere a fcu that rere beached because there
vas a Flag order that said if anybody has any out cecond
dynaruLj,c, meaning promiacuoug activities, they would be beached
end they rcre aort of l l teral ly thrown off the ship or LRH
had given an order tbat they rrere to be left in 2{ hours,
something l ike that.
a l fel lr let ne ask you in al l thc t ine that you
wcre aboard the ehip, l,lr. Schoncr, is it your tcstLnony that
nobody routed out and left the ship?
A There vas a pertod of t ime now, I eort of
recall , when LRH wanted to clean the ehip of anybody that
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d idnr t want to be therer t€6, and they could leave, Just
leave. And there were a lso people, I guess, that rere rent
of f as being PTS or potent ia l t rouble aources that shouldnr t
be on the sh i .p and sent to var ious organizat ions throughout
the ro r l d t o f i n i sh up the i r b i l l i on yea r con t rac t .
a Let me ask you th is , l * . Schomer: You say
when I ' tr . Hubbard yas aboard the ship, he control led everything
undcr a l l c i rcunstances a l l the t inre; is that r ight?
A That iE too inc lus ive. I mean, f d idn ' t have
to ask him to go to the bathrroom.
A You said he manageci i t a l ] the t ime.
A l ie are talking about letrs get dovn to
braae tacks. We are talking about the management of the
Sclcntology network throughout the rorldr and everything that
had any inportance to do wj.th the running of the ship
otherr isc, that he yas the a ln ighty that ran everyth ing, yes.
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4520
A Youf re t ry ing to t r l s t ny worda around. You know,
I r l l , do the besL I can to r lgh t them.
0 I donf t t ran t to tw lsb your worde around,
l l r . 8choner .
bfhat did you personal ly obaerve l l r . Eubbard oolng
a8 you obgarved hin nanaglng everythlng?
A I gan hln personal ly -- becauee I used to uatch
ln h is w lndow rh l le he ras do ing i t e lgn Eth ics o rders
dec la r ing peop le , you knos ; a lgn Eva ls r o f courae, l t yae
not dur ing one l t t t la per lod o f t lne l l t ras dur ing a few
years - - s ign lng , you knor , the Eenus l s lgn lng t ,he OODS,
vr l t lng t ,he @DS, ordere o f the day l approv lng Eva lg l
tpprov lng n lss lon orders l s ign ing f inanc la l p lann lng tha t ,
you know, rent on aboard the ehip.
Sonet lnes I would even have to wal t outeide
rh i l c Eone docunent he had to look t t r l t ke the f l r lng o f
r n les lon order , aoneth lng l l ke bhat - -
A 8o you loohed ln hls v indow and you sav hln
s lgn lng Eva ls , lenu8r end a l l o f these o ther th lnga you have
tal l red about l correct?
A ?hrt , lg eorrcct , ,
O And OODS?
A Yee, tha t le cor rec t .
In otber uordgr I personal ly eaw hln f ron t lne
to t lne ovcr a pcr lod of t lne whl le I uas on tbc ahlp algnlng
that array of types of docuarente.
A And through the ulndow you could see th€ typeg
of docunenta tha t he nas s lgn lngr ie tha t cor rec t?
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452L
A t { e l l , i t w a s l i k e t w o f e e t a w a y o r , l l k e f s a y ,
s o n e t l r n e s r h a d t o g e t s o m e t h i n g f o r h i m t o o k a y l i k e a n
E t h i c s o r d e r o r a p e r s o n n e l o r d e r f o r a n i s s i o n o r a m i e s i o n
o r d e r w h e r e f w a s s t a n d i n g o u t s l d e h i s d o o r . A n d t h e
n e s s e n g e r w o u l d t a k e l b l n t o h i m ; p u t l t o n h l s d e s k . H e
l o o k e d a t l t l e i g n e d l t ; g a v e i t b a c k t o n e a n d r r e c o g n i z e d
h i s s i g n a t u r e w h l c h i s t h e c a m e p e r s o n r s a w s i g n l t o n t h e
d o c u m e n t .
O D i d y o u d o t h l s o n a d a l l y b a s i s , t 1 t . S c h o m e r ,
l o o k t h r o u g h l t r . H u b b a r d r s w l n d o w a n d s e e h i n d o l n g t h i s ?
A O n a d a i l y b a s i s I h a d t o g o b a c k t o m y b e r t h i n g
a t a c e r t a i n p e r l o d o f t l n e . r t i a s o r t o f r i k e r u s e d t o
w a t c h h i m t h r o u g h t h e w i n d o w , y e s .
a Y o u r o f f i c e H a s r l g h t t h e r e w h e r e y o u c o u l d w a t c h
h i m ?
A H o w d i d t h e o f f i c e g e t l n t o
A Y o u w e r e s t a n d i n g o u t s l d e o f
b a s i e a b o a r d t h e s h l p ?
A f sa id when I uou ld ra lk by
s top nany t imes and watch h lm workr l i ke
c r e w .
i r ?
h ls window on a da i ly
h l s w i n d o w I w o u l d
the re6 t o f t he
We were in awe tha t we cou ld see and be c lose
to L. Ron tsubbard who was there working and watch hir i r do
t h c e e t h l n g s a n d g o i n g t h r o u g h p c f o l d e r s a n d c s r l n g a n d s o
f o r t h .
I f you knew t ,ha t God was aboard the sh ip , you
wou ld do the same th ing .
A Thts l s the way you perce lved l t r . Hubbard a t
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t h e t i m e ?
A Y e s . H e w a s I w a s l n a w e o f h i m . T h a t l s
v h y I J o i n e d t h e C h u r c h ; t t i s s o I c o u L d h e l p h l n c l e a r t h e
p l a n e t .
0 W h a t d i d y o u m e a n b y c l e a r i n g t h e p l a n e t ?
A Y o u w o u l , d h a v e t o l o o k i n t h e T e c h d i c t i o n a r y .
T h e v o r l d ' c l e a r r ' y o u k n o w , t h e r e l g n o - - a w h o l e
d i e s e r t a t l o n o f , y o u k n o w , m a n k i n d b e i n g b e t . t e r a n d c o m l n g
t o n o r e a w a r e n e s s a n d b r o t h e r h o o d a n d t h e t h i n g s t h a t t h e y
p r e a c h i n S u n d a y s c h o o l e v e r y d a y .
I a m s u r e y o u a r e a G o d - f e a r i n g n a n y o u r s e l f .
Y o u m u s t b e .
O L e t m e a s k y o u t h i s , l 7 t . S c h o m e r : d u r i n g t h e
p e r i o d o f t l n e w h e n y o u n e r e l o o k i n g t h r o u g h l t r , E u b b a r d ' e
w i n d o w a n d s e e i n g h i n s i g n a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s d i d y o u o b s e r v e
o t h e r p e o p l e t o b e s t a n d i n g a r o u n d l o o k i n g t h r o u g h t h e w i n d o w
at the Earne t ime?
A Every day? f nean there wasn I t a c rowd around
t h e w i n d o w . f w a s n f t t h e n u c l e u s o f t h i s c r o w d .
P e o p l e w e r e c o n s t a n t l y - - 1 t H a s 6 o r t o f l i k e
I b a d b e t t e r n o t E a y e v e r y t h l n g , b e c a u s e t h e n y o u t l l a e k
ne
T H E C O U R T T L e t r s n o t g e t i n t o w h a t h e n i g h t a s k y o u ;
J u s t a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n .
T H E W I T N E S S : F r e q u e n t l y t h i s w o u l d h a p p e n , A n d
f r e q u e n l l y o t h e r p e o p l e w o u l d d o t h e a a m e t h l n g .
a BY MR. HARRIS: Now, what was your pos t a t the
t l m e t h a t y o u w e r € l o o k i n g t h r o u g h t h e w l n d o w w a t c h i n g
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4523
U r . H u b b a r d e l g n a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s ?
A I h a v e n o l d e a , I w o u l d h a v e t o 1 i s t a l l t h e
p o s t s t h a b I h e l d o n t h e F l a g s h i p . A n d a t a n y t i n e t h a t
r looked th roug i r the v indow r cou ld have had one o f thoee
P O E t 6 .
I f t h e J u d g e r o u l d l i k e t h e l r r e l e v a n t d a t a o f
a l l o f my pos ts , I rou l .d be g lad to take your t l rne .
A I r ras Jus t t ry ing to ascer ta in i f there ras aone
par t i cuJar pos t tha t you remember when you were look lng
t h r o u g h t h e w j . n d o w w a t c h i n g H r . H u b b a r d s i g n a l l o f t h e s e
t h i n g s .
A I am a nosy person. I l i ke to know what ie go ing
o n . I l i k e t o a s k q u e s t . i o n s . I h a v e d o n e i t a l l n y 1 i f e .
That i s r rhy I am up here , because I have go t a l l
o f t h i e d a t a t h a t h r e r r e t r y i n g t o c l e a r t h e a i r o n r y o u
k n o w .
A In any event , a t , sone po in t when you go t o f f the
sh ip you took over the regpong ib i l i t y o f D i rec to r o f Records ,
a 6 6 e t s a n d r o a t e r i a l s ?
A R i g h t .
A And t ,hat was at Flag?
A That wa6 a t the F lag Land Base in C learwater ,
5 0 0 C l e v e l . a n d S t r e e t .
a I n C l e a r w a t e r ?
A R igh t . ZLp code 33 1 am sor ry r your tsonor ,
fo r be ing euch a schmuck.
T t tE COURTc Jus t t ry to anawer the quese ions s imp ly .
t f e r l . L t r y t o g e t o u t a l i t t l e s o o n e r .
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al t you
l s t h a t
A
o f , y o u
Hubbard
e a r I i e r .
BY HR. HARRIST l {hen you had th is pos t I take
s t 1 1 1 f e l t t h a t y o u w e r e a d e d i c a t e d S c i e n t o l o g i e e ;
c o r r e c E ?
Y e s . I h a d d o u b t s r c € r t a i n s u p p r e s g e d d o u b t s
know, th ings tha t I wou ld see on t .he ah lp and aee
d o a n d i r r a t i o n a l b e h a v i o r l i k e w h a t w a s r n e n t i o n e d
t he Sea Org?
Y e s , I w a s .
And the peop le a round you r a l l t hose names tha t
they were s t i l l menbere o f t he Sea Org as fa r as
B u t I h e l d h i m l n a w e i 8 0 i t l s l i k e r y o u k n o w ,
t h e r e n u s t b e a r e a s o n f o r l t . I d i d n r t k n o w i t a t t h e t i m e ,
b u t l t i s E o r t o f l i k e r E t E o m e p o i n t i n t i n e , I t m s u r e w h e n
I g o b E o b e l i k e h i m , n a y b e I w o u l d , u n d e r s t a n d w h y h e c o u l d
s t i l l d o t h a t a n d r e c e l v e t h e h u n d r e d s a n d t h o u s a n d s o f h o u r s
o f a u d l t i n g w h i c h h e h a d g o t t e n .
0 When you went to work fo r ASI you nere s t i l l a
member of
A
ayou naned,
you knew?
A R i g h t . I n e v e r r e a l l y f e l t t h a t f e v e r w a s n o t
the Sea Org , regard less o f what documents sa ida menber of
I w a s .
I r n g u r e t h e r e w a 6 , f o r l e g a l r e a s o n s , t h a t t h e r e
wou ldn I t be any lnurement lnvo lved.
0 You have brought tha t up th ree or four t imes,
l l r . Schorner , about no lnurcment invo lvedt le t rne aek your
a t t h e t i n e y o u w e r e D l r e c t o r o f R e c o r d s , a s s e t s a n d m a t e r i a l s
before you went, to ASI were you belng patd by the Church of
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4525
C a l l f o r n i a ?
A Y e s , f w a s .
0 I t a k e l t y o u w e r e d o i n g n o t h i n g p e r e o n a l f o r
l , t r . H u b b a r d t r i g h t ?
A I n C l e a r w a t e r , n o , f w a s n o t .
0 A n d a b o a r d t h e s h l p d i d y o u f e e l t h a r y o u w e r e
persona l ly employed by l t r . Hubbard?
A Y e s , I d l d .
0 D i d y o u f e e l t h a t e v e r y o n e o n t h e s h l p w a s
persona l ly e rnp loyed by Hr . Hubbard?
A Y e s , I d i d .
0 And you had sen io rs when you h ,ere on board the
s h i p ; r i g h t ?
A O b v i o u s l y . f w a s n ' t t h e t o p d o g ; 6 0 - -
0 A n d y o u h a d e e n i o r s o v e r y o u r p o s t o f D i r e c t o r
o f R e c o r d e , a s s e t s a n d n a t e r i a l s ?
A Y e s , f d i d .
A And when you went to ASI and a t the t ime tha t
you went to Asr you unders tood tha t ASr wourd be run by
S c i e n t o l o g y p r i n c l p l e s i c o r r e c t ?
A Y e s , I d i d .
0 And tha t the corpora t ion wou ld be sp l l t up t i ke
an organ lza t ion board such as ln a Church?
A f d o n r t q u i t e f o l l o w t h a t .
0 W e l l r y o u k n o w w h a t a n O r g b o a r d l s , d o n r t y o u ?
A Y e s .
0 And d id you have an Org board a t ASI?
A S u r e .
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4526
0 And was i t your agreement a t the t lne tha t , you
went there to compor t youree l f a6 a sc len to log lc t a t ASr?
A y e g .
0 And you agreed Eo do tha t ,?
A W e I l , I d l d n r t r e a l l y a g r e e , I r e a l l y d i d n r b
w a n E t o b e t h e r e . B u t l f r w a n t e d t o e t a y v i t h t h e c h u r c h ,
l t h ras sor t o f l l ke r you know - -
A When you say
A I f you ran t to be Catho l i c , l f you yant to be
i n t h e C a t , h o l l c C h u r c h , l t l s l l k e t h e s a n e .
a r {hen you 6ay you d ldnr t want to be there , d idy o u p r o t e s t g o i n g t o A s I ?
A l e s , I d i d , w h e n I y a s i n C l e a r w a t e r ,
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0 To yhon did you protest?
A To the ct{o in clcerrater rhen r found out
that r uaa belng rhanghaiied to go to Asr rethcr thrn to go
to Girnan Hot 8prlngs end be in the household unlt uhere
I had vorkcd to gat to for a long tine.
0 t{hen you 3ay you fclt you uere thanghailed, you
Dcan rooebody forcibly uede you rork at ASI?
A rcrl vhcn you rork ln the churchr tou courd - -
r could look et lt nor rnd lay r vas forced to do Lt becaure
lf r vantcd to continue to be ln thc church type of thing,
it ie rort of forca. rt lr rort of an lndlrect force thlng.
You do yhat t'hcy tell you to do, you knowr fou either get
out of thc church or lrou go to tho RpF and gct redeen€d.
o 6o it re your tertrnony that 3or'one tord you
that you aruat go to ASI?
A That ta r l .ght . I d id not have a choice.
o you u.ntcd to go to Girnan Hot springs and be
in the houeahold unlt?
A Right . I had Jut t bought l ike s lx pa l rs of
Bcrnuda rhorte to bc out ln the dcsert, and I Btill have thcm
at hoae nor vith the labclr on thenr that r never uBed.
A 6o yhen you got to ASl, did you proteat to
ronebody? "Hey, I yanted to go out to the houeehold unit
et Gl'lnan Hot springs bccauae r bought six palre of Bcrnuda
8hor t3. .
TflE COURTI Oh, that ie argurnent.ative, Counael.
A By HR. HARRIST Did you protegt to anybody
!t tha tine that you got to A.9r that you didnrt want to be
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there?
A Y e s .
A To rrhom did you protest?
A F ran Har r i s , my Een io r .
She laughed at ne and sa id, 'Hel l r u€ y i l l
handre that . You wi l r get to l ike i t hcre. There wi t l be
t lo t o f benef i tg , and r an sure that work ing real c lose to
LRH end right on his l ines le rhat you already yanted to
be, l f you go to Gi lman Hot Spr ings ln the household uni t ,
l f you thought you ucre going to see LRHr lou vouldnr t have.
But you vi l lr lou wil l be in the reekly communication with
h tm. "
So, i t is l ike th is is the chance of a l i fe t ime
ao Juc t e t i ck i t ou t .
O And you told her that you would?
A f ga id , ' t l e l 1 , I guess I don r t have a cho ice . .
I d idn ' t r ca l l y aoy , rThen , I an go ing to 8 tay . "
r sa id , ' ohay , r guess I don r t have a cho ice r '
and the converaation cnded.
0 N6rr rhy did you rant to go to Gilnan Hot
Spr ings?
A Because I uanted to work close to LRH.
A And at that time - -
A That ia rhy I joined the Sea Org. That ls
Yhy I got into Scientology.
O So when you embarked upon your post rt
Author Servicesr tt leaet you dld not, make any protcst after
you etartedl ls that correct?
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4529
A I was in a cont inual protest . That is vhy
they bang ganged rne, gec checked ne,
O You understood that that was eomething Lhat
wasnr t per the pol icy ; is that correct .?
A Hel l there is a lo t o f th ings going on that
arent t per po l icy . I t is l ike d isL inguish ing whaL is po l icyi r
and what ign ' t po l icy . l lhen do you app1y, /and when don' t you
apply l t?
O llhere you Ean that one has to exerciae
Judgrnent ln applying policy?
A Sometines there 1r no judgment.
f lhat an I going to do ri th 20 people accosting
re end te l l ing ne 'Bey, th is is o f f po l icy . ' Are you
kidding ne?
You know, i t is l ike hav ing a sp i t protector
ln f ront o f you to protect the sp i t f ron f ly ing at you. You
have got to bc nuta.
A The f irst t ine that you bIew, you were under
guard. That is what you sa id; r ight?
A Yes, under guard.
O Somebody was there who told you that he
thought you eere eupposed to be there for spir i tual benefit?
A R i g h t .
O And that person you oon|t renember?
A That ia r ight .
And - - Cormier wae his last narne.
0 Cornier?
A You wi l l f ind h im at the FIag land base.
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He ls a crass r0 auditor. I Ie wir l probably be Ln the
RPF now because I sa id i t .
0 And at the time that you blew you rcnt ruay
for about 10 days and then you came back; ie that correct?
A f went auay for exactly l0 dayer !B I raid
before.
O And shen you came backr 1rou vere going to
route out?
A That ie r ight, correct. I came back to get ny
posaeseions, to get ny car which they had Bto1en from nc and
locked up at the conrplex, and to rccure my phyaical rerl bcing
that r wouldnft b€ in total fear for the rest of my l l fe
that they yere going to come and get are for what r knew.
0 TheY?
A I f igured if I routed out correctlyr I yould
have sorne chance of surviving.
0 And they took your car back to the Complex?
A ASI took ny car. John Allcok, A-l-l<--H_k3
who ie the estate manager at ASI.
O And locked tt up at the Coruplex?
A That ir correct.
0 All r ight, now, after you decided that you
nere going to route out, were you under guard?
A YeB, I was under guard the whole t ime.
0 Who was the guard?
A There were a number of guarda. The maLn gruard
was Dick s torey who was arso at the F lor ida F lag land base.
O Did Dick Storey te} l you that you couldn, t I
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A Ycah. f mean, he took me to the bathroom and
wa i ted a t t he doo r . I Rean , i t l s l i ke - - he d idn r t
come out and give me certaln - - the rules that he vas going
to fo l l ow l i ke , ' r am you r gua rd . you can f t do any th ing . .
Bu t , you know, i t l s ao r t o f l l ke you d idn r t
tel l rne that you were going to be crogs-{xanining ne, but r
lort of could f igure i t out becauee you uere doing it
to cverybody erre. r t is aometh ing, i f you are sor t o f
in tc l l igentr tou caD ror t o f by obnoais f ind out .
0 That vas the yord that you used?
A Obcervcd. Obnosic ig a Sclento logy word.
0 And ln any cvent at some pointr fou blew
agaln?
A At lome point cxact,ly the 23rd of December I
f ina l ry f innagled, which is a Jewish word not a sc iento logy
uord' Bort of connivingly got into locked rooma and got rny
gear together clorly but rurely. HaB able to get my - - a
t ra i ler and put i t a l l in and f escaped. That is bet ter .
rt is nore dramatic than browing because that is exactly what
I dld do becauee they uould prcvent you fronr blowing.
O lf ter thatr fou asked for an anrnesty; r ight?
A After that, I would say about eight months
laterr an amnesty cane out and ny daughter, who the church
forced to disconnect fro,m me and write ne a letter saying
that she hereby disconnected from me becauee r racnrt quote,
unguote, handl ing my Ecene. In other worda, I wasnr t be ing
a good boy and I waenr t get t ing back on the br ldge, which f
had no lntention of doing anlmay.
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4532
f sa id, "Okay, I y l l l roquest tn rnnosty . '
And I iGrrL in a request for an a&nesty nhrch was, you know,
b ig dea l .
a And irr your opinionr four daughter waa forccd
Lo diEcorrr i€cL' j
A I havo document.s Lhat prove enat.
A Pron her?
A That rcra yrLttcn bccaure of vhat rhe did.
In fact, ahe called ne up a few rceks agor and I heve
dosuslents thaL sublt.antiate that rhe uag convinced to
cal.L ne to give rE I fair road and good weather type of .
thlng, Just to keep ne with the church so 1 would not. go
over to the enesry ll,ne.
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In fac t , H l l t and Laura t {o l fe , vho auppoeed ly
have gone docunents , car re to ny house ln Bou lder las t weekend
w l t h t l l s s i o n o r d e r s t h a t r h a v e g o t c o p i e s o f a l s o . A n d
theyr l l p robab ly be pu t ln the RpF now becauge they happened
to leave then in the open and I roade copies of therr .
I t c l e a r l y s t a t e s v h y t h e y c a n e . A n d t h e y t e r e
supposed ly to ge t ne back to the br ldge by whatever nean8
they cou ld .
A 'Get t ing back to the br ic ige . Feana ge t t lng you
b a c k l n t o t h e C h u r c h l r i g h t ?
A N o t n e c e s s a r i l y .
g E i ther rE a pub l . l c person or aa a E ta f f nenber?
A R l E h t .
0 And you are no t go ing to do tha t?
A I d o n f t t h i n k s o .
I have thought i t over vory aer loua ly . And I
d o n ' t t h l n k m y s p i r i t u a l w e I I b e i n g w o u l d b e i t i s
p robab ly the r tgh t t ,h ing to do now.
HR. BARRIST No fu r ther gues i ions .
THE COURTT l { r . L t t t?
$lR. LITTI lhank your your Honor.
THB WITNESST Your tsonor, would you l ike documents
subml t ted tha t these o ther th lngs happened?
THE COURT: Lawyers a re t ry ing the case, I eu Jus t
e l t , t lng here .
T t lE WITNESST I donr t want to compl lca te eh ings too
n u c h .
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CROSS-EXAM INATION
BY MR. LTTT:
a t 4 r . s c h o n e r , w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d b a c k f o r t h i s f e w
w e e k s p e r i o d o f t i m e d i d y o u h a v e a n y c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i L h
y o u r s i s t e r w h i l e y o u w e r e
A E v e r y o t h e r d a y , a s f m e n t i o n e d . B e c a u s e i f I
d i d n ' t , s h e w a s g o i n g t o c a l l t h e p o l i c e .
A S o y o u r e g u l a r l y c a l l e d h e r e v e r y o t h e r d a y
p u r s u a n t t o y o u r a g r e e m e n t w i t h h e r ?
A R i g h t .
N o w y o u a r e g o i n g t o s a y - -
0 l r m n o t g o i n g t o s a y a n y t h i n g . f ' n j u s t t r y i n g
t o f l n d o u t . I d o n r t h a v e a n y g u e s t i o n p e n d i n g ,
You rnent ioned tha t , an ind iv idua l narned Nev i l le
P o t t e r - -
A Y e s .
0 came to AS I?
A Regu la rJ . y , once a Heek .
O D i d h e t a l k t o y o u ?
A O c c a s l o n a l l y .
O T o c h a t , t g s a y h e l l o r e t s o m e t h i n g t i k e t h a t ?
A Y e g .
I a s k e d h i n h o w h e w a s d o i n g . f k n e w h i s w l f e .
O And you l nd l ca ted tha f he me t w i th Eone peop le?
A l l e me t w t th Te r r l o r Du eve ry t l ne he uas the re
o r N o r n a n ; u s u a l l y w i t h ? e r r i b e c a u s e h e J u s t c a n e t o p i c k u p -
w a g n r t t h e r e E o o l o n g .
O And were you pa r t o f t hese mee t ings?
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A N o .
A A n d d i d y o u r e v i e w w h a t H r . P o t t e r d e l i v e r e d o r
p i c k e d u p ?
A Sonet ines because somet imes I had a document tha t
had to go Co HSH. And i t wou ld come back th rough tha t l ine .
So a f te r he le f t I wou l .d ge t the document .
O D i d y o u e v e r h a v e a n y d l s c u s s i o n s w l t h
f { r . P o t t e r c o n c e r n i n g l i t r s . H u b b a r d ' s u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o
tny - - vha tever communlca t ions ex is ted w l th - -
A N O .
0 And you never had a d iscues ion w l th l , [16 . Hubbard
about tha t?
A N o .
0 You ind ica ted tha t you were somebody nent ioned
t o y o u a n l n d i v i d u a l , I g u e s s t t w a s d u r i n g t h e s e c u r i t y
c h e c k , n a n e d P e t e r G i l l a m ?
A Y e s .
a And tha t th is vas an lnd iv idua l who, to your
understandlngr had enbezzled gone rooney?
A Apparent , l y he bought some th ings wt th Church
f u n d s .
O And par t o f the reason fo r your secur l ty check
was to de tern lne whether you had taken th ings i nas tha t your
unders tand lng?
A Per the technology, I must have done aomething
because ny l r ra t tona l behav io r o f want lng to leave wou ld no t
have been - - there 1g no o ther reason fo r l t , accord ing to
Hubbardr I nean. That has to be - - t t cou ldn ' t be harassment
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or l t cou ldn f t be overwhehn lng on pos t o r no t want lng to be
t h e r e . f t h a d t o b e e o n r e t h i n g t h a t y o u d i d t o t h e
o r g a n i z a t i o n , a o n e n l s s e d w l t , h h o l d t h a t y o u a r e a p l a n t ;
y o u a r e w o r k l n g f o r t h e F B I o r C I A o r s o n e t h l n g .
a S o S c i e n t o l o g i s t s b e l i e v e d t h a t i f y o u n e r e d o i n g
t h i n g s t h a t a r e n r t r t g h t p e r t h e t e c h n o l o g y , t h a t t h e r e l s
a reason fo r i t l tha t there ls aome prob lem there?
A Yes; the same fo r want ing to leave. B lowing is
an over t tha t you have conmi l ted .
a A n d o n e p o s s i b i l i t y , I t a k e l t , s i n c e t h i e n a m e o f
P e t e r G i l l a m c a n e u p , h a d t o d o w i t h w h e t h e r y o u h a d t a k e n
t h i n g s ?
A Peter G i l lan came up because they were us ing
the scare tac t i c on me tha t t .hey used on h in to confess
every lh ing tha t he d id because they were go ing to send h im
t o j a i l .
In faci , i t was connon knowledge around the
of f l ce f ehou ldnr t aay common knowledge because you '11
t ry to p in t t down even fu r ther - - bu t I had heard Norman
and DM say dur ing a nust,er that . they had sent him out and
I th lnk l t was !1 r . t se l le r tha t he had h im ta lk to tha t pu t
the scare ln to h lm tha t he ras go ing to be pu t in Ja i l . And
they have go t a lo t o f b lack peop le there t ,ha t can do th ings
to a tender young body.
0 So your unders tand ing was tha t ! t r . G i l lam had
ln fac t adn l t ted tha t he had taken th ings tha t d idn t t be long
to hin or conrnl t ted Eone form of embezzlement or thef t?
A That na6 ny unders tand ing , yes .
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O And peop le compared you to Hr . G i l la rn?
A N o . T h e y d i d n r t c o m p a r e n e t o h l m . T h e y u s e d
t h e a a m e t h r e a t s a n d s c a r e t a c t i c s t h a t t h e y u s e d o n h i m ,
u s i n g h i s n a m e , k n o w i n g I k n e w t h e t a c t i c s t h a t t h e y u s e d
o n h i m .
a H h i c h w a s t o g e t h i m t o a d r n i t t h a t h e h a d d o n e
t h e e e w r o n g t h i n g s ?
A R i g h t . O r t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o - -
0 Charge h im - -
A P l a n t
0 - - w i t h c r l n i n a ] c o n d u c t ?
A - - p l a n t f a l s e d a l a o n h i n .
a Were you there Hhen F t r . G i l lan was to ld tha t
he was go ing to have fa lse da ta p lan ted on h in?
A No. But f was there when DH to ld ne and
everybody e lse tha t was in the room tha t th is l s wha l the ,v
d i d t o h i m .
odat ,a on
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0
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m o r e .
That they to ld h im they nere go ing to p lan t fa lse
h im?
R i g h t .
And tha t l s rhy he confessed to the t ru th?
T h e t r u t h ? f d o n r t k n o w w t r a t t h e t r u t h i s a n y
Now, d td you take - - w i thout say ing vhat they
t h i s p o i n t , d i d y o u t a k e a n y n a t e r l a l s w h e n y o u l e f t
i ly onn possessions.
D id you take any ln t ,e rna l documents o f ASI?
aa twere
A S I ?
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THE I { ITNESST $hou ld I answer tha t?
THE COURTT You have go t a p r iv l lege aga lns t se l f -
l n c r l n i n a t i o n , r f y o u t h l n k 1 t n t g h t t e n d t o l n c r i n i n a t e y o u r
y o u h a v e a r i g h t t o s t a n d o n t h a t .
T H E W I T N E S S T I r l ] p l e a d t h e F i r s t A m e n d m e n t .
HR. L ITTI f t l s the F l f th Amendment .
fHE HITNBSST I do have sonrebhing ln ny safe deposi t
box back ln Bou lder , tbough.
l { R . L I T T : N o t h i n g f u r t h e r .
THE I f ITNESST Poes lb ly - -
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REDIRECT EXNITNATION
BY I{R. FLYNH:
0 l{r. Schoraer, Iet sc ahow you exhlblt
quadrupla A, 'cancel la t ion of d iaconncct ion. , nrg i t your
underrtanding that the policy of dLsconneccion had been
cancelled on 15 Novenber, 196g?
A r have a policy ratter of HC oB in ny brrefcale
that, it uar rel.nrtrtcd in Ecptenb€r of I g3.
0 Ict na rhov you thia document
tilR. LITT: Can ve knou vhat the docum€nt ie?
O By l.lR. fLyNN: l{hat 1a it, trt!. Schomer?
l,,IR. LITT; flave re rcen it b€for€?
TtlE COURTT 4A.
HR. FLYNH: Ng. Thig is
THE wrrNESSr r can get an exhibit of the rategt
Hc oB on thc dircorurcction, Lf nccersrry, your Honor.
TBE couRTs tfarr., thcre .ra trp things on thig
shcet. one Lr 'cencrrlat ion of fair gane. and then Lhere
1r 'canccllat ion of dlrconncctl.on., vhich onr ycre you
rcfcrrLng to?
THE rrrNESSr Dirconnectlon. That Ls yhat he aeked
l ? .
?HE couRTr you rcren't tarklng about the cancerration
of fair gene?
TttB ffITNESSt Ho.
o BY HR. rLyNNr Herl r wil l ask you about that.
Do you know anything about the purported cancerlatlon of
fair gane?
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A lf.ll, rbat I read ln HC OB there erc thlnge,
but is gort of l lke l t doesn't real ly Eaan too ruch. It l . !
Just a PR type thlng. ?hat happcns al l thc t lre. t trt
doesn't rn€an that that ls wtrat you arc ordcrcd to follov.
O fncldentally, t!r. Schdrer, vhen lrotr rrlrc bclng
aec checked, rere you vorklng for the CIA or tbc EBf or
thc planet Xenon?
A t ro. I donr t th lnk to . I rarnf t , dcf ln l te ly
D{'t.
0 Thlc docuncnt that trtr. Lltt Lc rcadlng,
rtrere dld you get lt?
A I found tt ln r foldar that vec lcft on thc
couch ln ny houre that bclongad to l{llt end Laure lolfc
rhcn tbey cen€ to mahe ne eae thc llght.
A Incldentally, vlteD dtd they corra to ece you?
A Cane to see ne on Trreaday cvcnlng, leat veek.
O Dl.d Geral Arnetrong eall you on trtonday cvcnlng?
A I thtnk so. Ird have to look in ay notce of
rtren he called me.
O 'And thcy rhored up, florn ln fron Clcanatcr
on ?ucsday eveni-ng?
A Risbl.
O lthen rrag the laet tirne bcfore that you had
rcen l{ilt and taura tlolfe?
A {hen I lcft Clearwater back ln l{arcb of f t2.
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0 And nere they tbro of your cJ,osest f r iends?
A Yes, t ,hey l rere .
TBE COURT: Did they know vhere you rere l lv lng?
TEE WI?NESST Oh, yes . I had ca l led then to ask how
they were do lngr you know, e lgh t nonthe be fore or lomelh ing .
A I IY l lR. FLYNNT And you plcked this up on the
c o u c h t l E t h a b c o r r e c t ?
A T h a t r s r l g h t .
A And ls th is wher : you go t the unders tand lng tha t
your daughter was forced to dieconnect f rom you?
A Wel l r th ls l s a repor t o f soneth lng tha t .
happened a couple of nonths ago. And she told me exact ly
shat ls in here. 8ut there ls another docurnent nhich you
have rhlch le the later docurnent
l tR. tLYNl l r Ftay th is be narked next in order?
TBE WITNESST This proves wlt ,houl a reasonable doubt
to rae that whlch r auspected; that she was asked or persuaded
to cal l ne Lwo week6 ago to get back into cor,munlcat ion wi th
me ao tha t f wou ldnre cont lnuer you know, o r poss ib ty go over
to the cneny l lnes .
THE COURTT I r l l , Jue t ln te r rup t .
I d t d n a r k t h l s 4 - G r s , c o n f l d e n t l a l .
A BY HR. fLyNNr The n lss lon orders o f Ut l t and
Laura t lo l fe?
A Ho. The other one that saya rhere rhe rag
perauaded to cal l ne.
A What ls thts docunent?
A Thig ras the nlselon order that I a l .eo found
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l n t h e i r f o J d e r w h i c h i s t h e m i s s i o n o r c l e r t h a t M i r t a n c l
L a u r a w o l f e c a n r e t o B o u l d e r t o , a s i t E a y 6 h e r e , t h e n i s s i o n r g
purpose is to p revent Homer f rom go ing over to the eneny camp
and get h im lnc ,v ing back on to the br idge.
A l i e r e y o u h e r e w h e n V a u g h n y o u n E t e s t i f i e d t h a t
t h e w o r d ' e n e n y " 1 6 n r t u s e d a n y n o r e ?
A Yes. I t , n igh t have s l ippec i by roe , bu t i t i s in
t h e m i s s i o n o r d e r .
t ' l R . L I T T : O b j e c t i o n . T h a t m i s s t . a t e s t h e t e s t i m o n y
o f M r . Y o u n g , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURT: Wel l , t ,he record w i l l speak f o r i t , se l f .
A n d w h e l h e r o r n o t h e s a i d i t , r d o n ' t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a ] l y .
But there was a change in so ine th ing f ro r r r ,enemy ' to' e x t e r n a L . ' f r e l n e r r b e r t h a t ,
M R . L I T T : T h a t w a s w l t h r e s p e c t t o t h e C f C s h e e t s ,
I o u r B o n o r .
A BY MR. FLYNl. l r You 6ee on the bottonr of the
e e c o n d p a g e , ' G i n u n l c k . l { e a r e h e r e t o h e r p s o r t t h i n g s o u t . .
T h i s i s M i l t a n d L a u r a t { o l f e I s n i s s i o n o r d e r s ;
cor rec t ?
t {ha t does 'G i rus ick . tJe are here to sor t th ings
out r nean, i f you know?
A AI1 n lss ion orders have 6ome k ind o f a g imin icx .
rb i s usua l ry someth ing tha t i s used as a pR- type tac t i c o f
te l l ing peop le why you are there or exp la in ing why you are
there w i thout g iv ing Ehem the rea l reason.
I f you were a burg la r o r someth ing , the g imin ick
wou ld be r came to v is i t you . But nh iLe you are ou t o f t ,he
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r o o n , f s t e a l y o u r J e w e l s .
0 O r l f y o u r r e a S c l e n t o l o g i e t t h e g i n m l c k w o u l d
b e t h a t l t w o u l . d b e f o r y o u r s p l r i t u a l b e t t e r n e n t ?
A Y e s .
H R . F L Y N N : T h e n e x t i n o r d e r , Y o u r E o n o r , p l e a s e .
THE COURT: QuadrupJ .e H.
l lR . L ITT: Does 1 ,1r . F lynn have cop ies to p rov lde uE
w l t h ?
M R . F L Y t i N : I J u s t g o l t h e n l a s t n i g h t , F l E . L t t t .
O T h i s d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m s h o w i n g H r . t i t t i s t h e
one where you f i rs t learned your daughter uas fo rced to
d isconnect f ro rn you?
A No. Th is l s t ,he one o f a phone ca l l tha t ehe
nade to ne a few weeks 89or about two reek6 ago.
0 fs there another document?
A l r io . The one is a l ready submi t ted wh ich t .h is
c o n f i r m e d n y s u s p l c l o n o r l t u a s n r t r e a l l y a e u s p i c i o n b e c a u s e
f sor t o f knew tha t ahe jus t wou ldnr t ca l l lne ou t o f the
clear blue and be a6 happy as she nas to get in comutunicat ion
wi th ne aga in becauser you know, severa l weeks be fore she
was ehe was an tagon ls t i c aga lns t ne no t ge t t lng back ln
t h e C h u r c h .
l l y s is te r had ca l led her and she sa id she was
ln no f rasre o f n tnd to ge t ln to - - you know, to be ab le to
ta lk to ne , bu t she wou ld th lnk about l t .
MR. FLYNN: Hay th is be narked nex t in o rder , Iour
Honor?
THE COURTI Quadrup le I .
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t lR . PLYNNI That l s a l l f have.
I H E C O U R T : D i d y o u d i s c u s s t h l s n l s s l o n i n f o r m a t i o n
wi t .h these peop le?
THE WITI ' IESSr They donr t know thab I have l t .
In facE r Dow tha t the Church knows f have go t
l t , H t l t a n d L a u r a W o l f e a r e g o i n g t o b e l n d e e p t r o u b l e .
B e c a u s e y o u J u s t d o n t t l e t n i s s i o n o r d e r e g e t l n t o t h e e n e n y r a
h a n d s .
They donr t know tha t f have any o f these
docunents . They are cop ies because I had a copy mach lne in
ny house, I nade cop ies and pu t the or ig ina ls back ln the
fo lders . So f never to ld them tha t I saw then or bor rowed
cop ies f rom them.
I n f a c t , I ' n a u r e t h l g l s t h e f i r s t t l m e a n y o n e
of t ,he - - we l l , s lnce f am the i r enemy, I r11 say tha t ny enemy
l s n a d e a n a r e o f t h i s .
HR. EARRIS: Are you f in lshed?
tr{R. FLYHN : I I n a1l done, Your Honor .
f move those ln to ev idence.
HR. HARRIS: l lay I c rose-exan ine br ie f l y , Your Honor?
THE COURTT Cer ta ln ly .
RECROSS-EXA}I INATION
BY ITR. HARRIS:
A Mr . Schomerr you had been comnrun ica t lng w l th
l , t l I t
I s h ls nane l io l fe?
A Wol fe l epe l l lng W-o- l - f -e .
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A Y o u h a d b e e n c o m m u n i c a t i n g w l t h H i l t l { o l f e o f f
a n d o n w h l l e y o u w e r e o u t ?
A I c a l l e d h l m a b o u t e i g h t m o n t h s a g o t o E e e h o w
h e w a s d o i n g .
H e c a l l e d m e a b o u E t w o n o n t h s a g o w h e n t h e C h u r c h
htas very heav i l y on my case to come back e i ther to C lear | ra te r
o r t o L o s A n g e l e s t o h a n d l e m y d i s a g r e e m e n t s a s f a r a s
g e t , t i n g l n n o r e a u d i t i n g .
I to ld h im there was no l ray tha t I wou ld a l low
anybody bo aud i t me f rom the Church because I am in fear o f
t h a t .
The nane of Laura Wolfe happened to come up as
b e l n g o n e o f m y b i g f r i e n d s b a c k a t F l a g .
A n d I s a i d r ' l { e l l , i f I w o u l d c o n s i d e r a n y b o i y ,
she wou ld p robab ly be the on ly one. '
0 And th ls was two r ronehs ago?
A About I would have to look in ny --
A Rough ly .
A T w o n o n t h s , s i x v e e k s a g o , s o n e t h i n g .
But a f te r they had found ou t tha t I ha< i gone up
to look in to Davey Mayors g roup up in Santa Barbara , f nean
Ehey d idnr t even ques t ion or t ry to ge t . ln contac t w l th me
a g a i n u n t i L M i l t c a l l e d t h e o t h e r d a y . g e t r i e d t o g e t n e
a week gr so be fore .
A So le t ne Jus t unders tand th is : Iou had no t
had a subpoena a t the t i rne tha t you ta lked w i th U i l t and
taura Wol fe?
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The eulcpoena youldn.t b€ effoctlve outtldefHE COUBTT
the State.
tHE HTTHESS: r ncvcr havc had a rubporne. lcver
Svlta got ona for e driving violation.
0 By !tR. BARRIS: So at the time
lrft, you bad not bceo la emrunlcrtl,on vlth
bciag e rltnus Ln abtr care?
thrt Larry tolfc
llr. tlynn tbout
A No.
: |, lp.. HARRIST All rightr tsLblng furthcr.
ftrE COURT: Hr, Lttt?
l{R, LItl: No, your Bonor,
!1R. gLt.}fH: Ior lour f,onor.
t{R- EARRrsr r thlnk the cxhlbltc are lrralovant, Bo
I'd obJect on that ground.
TEE couRT: r donrt thlak they are L*ercvl't.
fbc obJection ie ovcrruled.
}tR. EARRIS: lt€ll thcn r guese thcy yltl be ontercd.
fEE CO{IRT: AII right, you ney sLep dovn, 8ir.
!{R. FLYNNT tbat is al1 r have on rurrobuttal.
T!,8 couR?: r donf t knmr vhat ccrea eftcr aurnbuttrl,.
Do you bave anything elle?
llR. aAnRrs: r underatood tha eo,urt raa gorng to
THE couRtr resr r have got to lerve Ln a fcr nlnuter.
!tR. BARRTS; rt lr eonceiveblc vc rpuld hrvc lt rorft,
at thk atage tt, ls golng to be at rorstr oDG rltaers.
TBB CouRTl rell re can r.convene lhca tonorror roralng
rt I orclocl. If tbrre la a vitncrg, thcrc lr. tf not, u6
;l1l go tato elr tbeec uhlbltr. rG hrvc aot nrltrpre crbibrtc
.9/2
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to deal yl.th.
lf,R. ELrltN: lbet ebout clorLng rrgurantr, rour goaor?
fEB coURTr Ehat r vas thinktng !.s onco ye dcclde
rhatever crhlbl.ta erc in or out, r dght r.crf3 for berf l
day or a day, rhatcver it ls ro r crn rt.rt looklng et
rone of theec crhiblts and then hava you coEe brck rnd rrgruc.
r ccrtainly rouldn't fiairh looking at ell tlrc r-hlbits but
I could rsview
ttR. LI?i,r Tlrrt rould bc ft,ac.
tEE couRgr lta have bcan going tor flvo rrckr rad r brvc
looked at ron of tib€re trhibltt vrry burriadLy, rnd r*
tllngc erc rcrlry not ia oeguanq!. r don't rcnclbcr r lot
of thcn' ro I't rould bc helpful for ra to go ovGr .G
of tharc cxhLbita bcfore s'a tcturlly coonaaca lr{turcnt.
HR. LIEf: I tbinh for ur lr usll.
THB couRTs retrs reccaa uatil to-aorrou norning at
9 orclock.
(At 3100 p.l. the proceedlngr rrer€
adJotrrned until Hedaerdayl Juae 6, l9B{
a t 9 1 0 0 l . ! . )