committee on un-american activities3-1956

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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6625Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arexs. You have been an author in the course of the last few

years, have you not, writing for the Contemporary Reader?Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. Well, now, we have a copy of the Daily "Worker ofMay 3, 1953, and, if you will pardon the Communist jargon, perhapsit is being a stool pigeon again here, because the Coimnunist DailyWorker of tliis date tells about a new publicationthe ContemporaryReader, a new quarterly magazine. And among the contributors tothis new publication is John R. Starks.Look at this document and see if you are accurately identifiedthere.(The witness confers with his counsel.)Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. "Why ?Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest tlie witness be

ordered and directed to answer the question.Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.Mr. Starks. I decline to ansvrer that question on the basis of the

first amendment which guarantees me the riglit for freedom of press,speech, and association.

I also refuse to answer o]i the basis of the fifth amendment.Mr. Arens. Now^ I want to invite yom- attention to still anotherarticle. I want to ask you a few questions about what the CommunistDaily W^orker says about you. Maybe the Daily Worker isn't right,and I wan't to check with you on it.The Communist Daily Worker of May 3, 1953, in the article aboutthe Contemporary Reader, says

Its first issue has the promise of its credo. * * * it is heartening to see suchwriters as John R. StarlvS, as an example, 33, a railroader and a member of theBrotherhood of Railway Carmen, a native of Illinois who spent 5 years in theArmy and has the Purple Heart for wounds received as an infantry soldier inFrance. This is his first published short story.He appears in these pages with such writers as Abraham Polonsky, LesterCole, Alan Max, Martha Millet, and Millard Lanipell.

Tell us a little about yourself. Were you, in 1953, 33 years of age?(Document marked "Exhibit No. 424," see appendix, pp. 7845,7846.)(The witness confers with his counsel.)Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. In 1953 were you a railroader ?Mr. Starks. I decline to answ^er.Mr. Arens. The fact is you are right now in a Communist cell ofthe Railroad Carmen; are you not?Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. Wliy?Mr. Starks. I decline to answer.Mr. Arens. Mv. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness beordered and directed to answer the question.Mr. Frazier. You are directed to answer the question.Mr. Starks. I decline to answer that question on the basis of thefirst and fifth amendments to the Constitution.Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of William Cortor,C-o-r-t-o-r?


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6626 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Starks. I refuse to answer that question.Mr. Arens. "VVliy?Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer.Mr. Arens. Could that be because Cortor testified under oath before

this committee respecting certain people he knew to be Communists?That 3'ou just don't want to talk about Cortor?Mr. Starks. I refuse to answer.Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude

the staff interrogation of this witness.Mr. Frazier. Any questions, Mr. Velde?Mr. Velde. No questions.]\Ir. Fr^vzier. Mr. Jackson?Mr. Jackson. No questions.Mr. Frazier. The witness is dismissed.Mr. Arens. We have no more witnesses under subpena for the ses-

sions here in Chicago.There were two other witnesses who were under subpena but theyhave been canceled because of illness.Mr. Frazier. Before we conclude these hearings in Chicago, I wouldlike to comment briefly on several of the things which have emergedfrom the testimony today and yesterday which we consider of par-ticular importance.The evidence that the committee has received during these hearingsprovides further confirmation of the fact that the Communist Partyof the United States, through a variety of various agencies, is engagedin a broad program of infiltration and propaganda aimed at divestingthis Nation of the security laws designed to safeguard it against alienattck from inside and outside its borders.We have noted the evasiveness of many witnesses who have appearedand their refusal to speak freely when under oath about the natureof activities they are engaged in. And, on the other hand, we haveplaced into the record of the committee a vast array of exhibits whichspeak eloquently about those activities which they seek to veil insilence when called before us.

Certainly no one can contest the right of legitimate organizationsand sincere individuals to participate in free discussion of the lawswhich govern them.But free discussion and genuine protests are entirely different fromthe operation of the conspiracy which seeks to convert honest concernfor democratic procedures to an instrument of subversion. And it issubversion that we have to deal with here.The witnesses before us from such groups as the Michigan Com-mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, the Midwest Committeefor Protection of Foreign Born, and the INIinnesota and St. LouisCommittees for Protection of Foreign Born have no true interest inthe welfare of minority and nationality groups. Their sole interestis to exploit these groups for the benefit of world communism; todivide and confuse the ]3eople of this area and the people of the countryas a w^hole so that their stealthy advance may proceed withoutopposition.

I think it is clear to all who have attended these hearings and fol-lowed the proceedings that organizations like the American Committeefor Protection of Foreign Born and its accessories in this area haveforfeited any claim to a legitimate status.


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commujstist political subversion 6627The result of these hearings provides conclusive proof that these

organizations and the individuals who continue to participate in themin full knowledge of their purpose must stand identified as theenemies, and not the friends, of the very people whom they profess tobe helping. Their sole objective is to enable the Communist conspir-acy in the United States to function without disturbance and to makethe United States a haven for conspirators engaged in plotting itsultimate destruction.

I would like now to express the appreciation of the subcommitteefor the untiring cooperation of various people who have helped makearrangements for these proceedingsThe Honorable William J. Campbell, United States district judge;United States Marshal William W. Kipp; Building SuperintendentFrank C. Allen; and the Chicago Police Department, particularlythose detectives charged with protecting this city from subversiveelements.Do you have a statement you would like to make, Mr. Velde ?Mr. Velde. Just a few remarks, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

First of all, let me have the privilege of joining with you in thatvery fine statement, and to commend you on the fair and impartialmanner in which you have chaired this meeting.

I wish, also, to express my joy at being with my colleagues, DonJackson of California and Gordon Scherer, of Ohio, for these veryimportant and enlightening hearings.As you know, I have chosen not to run for reelection this time,and I will not be with you again.I want to say I hope you continue carrying the torch in a never-ending battle against communism and subversion against this Govern-

ment.I would like to say, too, that I believe our vf^^-y able and efficient

staff, Mr. Arens, Mr. Appell, and Mr. Weil, des. rve a word of com-mendation for the very intelligent, logical manner in which theyhave handled the investigation and the witnesses on the witness standduring this hearing.Thank you.Mr. Frazier. Mr. Velde, we appreciate your remarks. And I wishto take this occasion, since I am not going to California with you, tosay that we members who have had the honor of serving with you onthis committee appreciate the great work you have done in furtheringthe various investigations that this committee has undertaken. Wewill miss you in the next Congress.Mr. Jackson ?Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I join with both of you in the general statements that have beenmade.I also should like to pay a special word of tribute to Mr. Velde who

is not returning to Congress. And I wish him well for the valuablepublic service he has rendered the country while chairman of thiscommittee. We shall miss him on the committee.Also an additional word to the staff.


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6628 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONActually the reason some of these people take tlie fifth amendmentwhen they get in the chair is because they know that, through careful

staff work, the facts are there. The facts cannot be refuted.Congratulations, Mr. Arens and Mr. Appell and others on the staff.And also the hard-working reporter whose fingers must be cramped

by this time.Mr. Frazier. That concludes the hearings.The committee is recessed.(Whereupon, at 4 : 35 p. m., December 4, the committee was recessed,to be reconvened at 10 a. m., in room 514, Federal Building, LosAngeles, Calif., on Wednesday, December 5, 1956.)

( Committee members present : Representatives Frazier, Velde, andJackson.)

AMERICAN COMMITTEE FOR PROTECTION OF FOREIGN BORN1. Cited as subversive and Communist.{Attorney General Tom Glarh^ letters to Loyalty Review

Board^ released June 7, 191^8^ and September 21^ 19I}.8.)2. "One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United

States."{Special Committee on Un-American Activities^ Report^March 29^ 19It4^ p. 155; also cited in Report^ June 25, 194-2,P-^^') . . . . . .3. "Among the Communist-front organizations for racial agitation"which also serve as "money-collecting media" and "as special

political organizing centers for the racial minority they pretendto champion." "Works closely with the International LaborDefense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense of for-eign-born Communists and sympathizers."

{California Committee on Un-American Activities, Reports,194.7, p. 4S; 1948, p. 113.)


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONWEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1956

United States House of Representatives,Subcommittee of theCommittee on Un-American Activities,Los Angeles^ Calif.public hearing

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities metat 10 : 20 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 514, Post Office Building, LosAngeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee)presiding.Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-fornia ; Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff member present : William A. Wheeler, investigator.Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order.By virtue of the designation by Chairman Francis E. Walter, of

the Committee on Un-American .Vctivities, the subcommittee consist-ing of Mr. Velde, of Illinois, Mr. Scherer, of Ohio, and Mr. Doyle, ofCalifornia, as subcommittee chairman, is called to order. A quorumis present. Subcommittee Chairman Doyle and RepresentativeScherer. The subcommittee hearings for this morning are of neces-sity continued until tomorroAv morning at 10 a. m., Thursday, Decem-ber 6, 1956. All persons in the room who have been subpenaed fortoday are directed to return tomorrow. We regret any inconveniencecaused to any witness because of the continuance of the subpenas butthe committee has also caused inconvenience to itself by reason ofpostponement. Without further direction or proceeding the subcom-mittee stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 a. m. Allpersons present subpenaed for today are directed and ordered toappear tomorrow.Mr. Scherer. May I suggest that all persons who have been sub-penaed for today wlio are not present in the hearing room also bedirected to appear in the hearing room at 10 a. m. tomorrow.Mr. Doyle. Yes, that is correct. All persons subpenaed for todaywho do not happen to be present at this meeting are also ordered anci

directed to appear tomorrow at 10 a. m.8533357pt. 1 32 6629


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C03IMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONTHURSDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1956

United States House of Representatives,Subcommittee of theCommittee on Un-American Activities,Los Angeles^ Calif.PUBLIC hearing

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, in room 514, Federal Build-ing, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcom-mittee) presiding.Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, HaroldH, Velde, and Gordon H. Scherer.

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.Whieeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators ; and Richard S. Weil,staff member.Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please come to order.This morning this subcommittee of the Committee on Un-AmericanActivities, composed of Representatives Velde, of Illinois, Scherer,

of Ohio, and myself, Clyde Doyle, as chairman, begins hearings on theproblem of Communist political subversion in this area.These hearings are part of a series which the Committee on Un-American Activities has conducted in Washington, D. C, Youngs-

town, Ohio, and Chicago, 111., and will continue in other cities.By "political subversion" we mean the attempts of the CommunistParty and its confederate organizations to destroy the security pro-gram of the United States Government.In the hearings of this committee thus far held we have received anappalling picture of a campaign, under the direction of the SovietUnion, by the Communist Party in the United States, to rob ourNation of its defenses against ultimate annihilation by an alien con-spiracy acting in defiance and contempt of the United States Con-stitution.We have received a vast quantity of evidence of the techniques ofinfiltration and propaganda activities by which the Communist Partyenlists sincere and well-meaning citizens to accomplish this illicit pur-pose of the Communist Party and its subversive groups.

I would like to emphasize that these hearings are not intended todeal with the merit or lack of merit of any particular Federal law.We are not here to participate in legislative controversy.Our sole purpose is to examine Communist activities directed againstthese Federal laws.No one contests the right of legitimate organizations and sincere in-dividuals to participate in free discussion of the laws which governthem, and to petition their United States Congress.

6631


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6632 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONBut free discussion and genuine protest are entirely different fromthe operation of a conspiratorial apparatus which seeks to perverthonest interest and democratic procedures into an instrument of secret,,

illegal subvert i(m.And, bluntly speaking, it is subversion we are called upon to dealwith toda}'

.

The testimony before the committee in this series of hearins^s hasalready established the fact that the Communist Party in the UnitedStates has created literally hundreds of separate front organizationsto serve it in its current campaign of illegal subversion.One of the primary objectives of this campaign by the CommunistParty and its confederates is to strip our immigration and nationalitylaws of the provisions which make possible the deportation of alienCommunist agents who, by fraudulent means, have obtained residencein the United States.One of the most powerful of these agencies of the Communist Partyin the United States is the American Committee for Protection ofForeign Born, which has accessory organizations in this immediategeographic area and throughout the United States.The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, whichwe will examine in detail during these hearings startino- this morninsr,.1 1 -1-1 ^ *-"has long ranked as one of the major adjuncts of the American Com-

mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and, in turn, of the CommunistParty itself.In addition to the activities directed against the security provisions

of the immigration laws we also plan to inquire into the coordinatedefforts of the Communist Party against otlier basic anti-Communistlegislation such as is contained in the Smith Act, Internal SecurityAct, and the Communist Control Act.At this time I would like to point out that the Committee on Un-American Activities was first created as a regular standing committeeby the 79th session of Congress in 1946, and has been reestablished byevery session of Congress since then. Its powers and duties are setforth in Public Law 601 of the 79th Congress.The full committee consists of nine members. And Public Law 601of the 79th Congress expressly authorizes the creation of subcom-

mittees such as is here this morning.The committee established its own rules of procedure, which areprinted, and each witness or legal counsel appearing before the com-mittee receives a copy thereof.We hope that, as a result of these hearings, the Committee on Un-American Activities will be able to consider legislative recommenda-tions of further aid to the Government in combating the Communistconspiratorial subversive apparatus. And we hope, beyond this, thatthe information obtained here will serve further to alert the peopleof this geographical area and of the United States to the menace ofthe conspiratorial operation which still contrives to flourish among^them.

I wish to state that this subcommittee was duly appointed by thechairman of the full committee.Francis E. Walter^by authoritygiven him under Public Law 601.The full subcommittee being present, the committee will proceedwith its hearings. But, before we do this, may I say that we are in a


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6633United States Federal building. This is a subcommittee of the UnitedStates Congress. We shall expect the utmost cooperation of everyperson in this room during the committee proceedings. If my ex-pectations are not met by any person in this room that person will bepromptly removed from the room by the United States marshal.Are you ready, Mr. Arens ^Mr. Arens. Yes, Mr. Chairman.Mr. Chairman, before calling the first witness, may this record re-flect a general order from the chairman tliat each of the many exhibitswhich we expect to use during the course of these hearings be appropri-ately marked and incorporated, either by reference or in the body ofthe record or in the appendix, as the case may be.

If the chairman gives us that general order it will save consider-able time.Mr. Doym:. "Without objection, it is so ordered.May I state, for the benefit of the record and those present, thatMr. Arens is the director of our committee and also our legal counsel.

Proceed, Mr. Arens.Mr. Arens. The first witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Del-phine Murphy Smith.Kindly come forward.Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath

to you.Mr. DoTLE. Will you please raise your right hand.Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, andnothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Smith. I do.TESTIMONY OF MRS. DELPHINE MUEPHY SMITH; ACCOMPANIEDBY COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. MUREISHMr. Doyle. Will you please be seated.Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-cupation.Mrs. Smith. My name is Delphine Murphy Smith, ^ly residence is

1650 McCollom Place, Los Angeles. I am a machinist.Mr. Arens. And where are you employed, please ?Mrs. Smith. Where am I employed ?Mr. Arens. Yes.Mrs. Smith. I was subpenaed on the job, and that is 6500 South

Avalon.Mr. Arens. And you are appearing today in response to a subpenawhich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-

can Activities ?Mrs. Smith. Yes, I am.Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?Mrs. Smith. Yes, I am.Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for the

record.Mr. MuRRisii. William B. Murrish, M-u-r-r-i-s-h, Los Angeles bar.Mr. Arens. Are you Mrs. Smith or Miss Smith ?Mrs. Smith. Mrs.


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6634 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Arens. How long have you lived in the Los Angeles area ?Mrs. Smith. Right in Los Angeles ?Mr. Arexs. In the environs of Los Angeles.Mrs. Smith. The environs of Los Angeles. About 35 years. Not

in Los Angeles city.Mr. Arens. Have you ever been executive secretary for the LosAngeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?Mrs. Smith. I believe I am going to have to refuse to answer thatquestion, and I will state my reason for it, that, by asking me that,you are inquiring into my thoughts and associations.

Therefore, I am going to have to refuse to answer it on the groundsof the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-

mittee truthfully whether or not you have ever been executive secre-tary for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bornyou would be supplying information which might be used against youin a criminal proceeding?Mrs. Smith. I didn't intend to debate the matter. I merely statedthat I refuse to answer it on the grounds of the first and fifth amend-ments.Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness beordered and directed to answer the last outstanding and principalquestion.Mr. DoTLE. We believe it is an appropriate question, and I directyou to answer the same.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. You say you require that I answer that ?Mr. Doyle. I have instructed you. We believe it is an appropriate

question, and you are instructed to answer the question.Mrs. Smith. I have refused to answer it on constitutional grounds.

I stated the groundsThe first amendment, which safeguards freedom of speech, whichI am defending in this, and the fifth amendment, which protects peoplefrom testifying against themselves. I feel that this is an abrogationof my constitutional rights by demanding that I answer such a ques-tion. Beyond that, as I said before, I don't intend to debate it anyfurther.Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the witness doesn't under-stand the import of Mr. Arens' question and the decisions of the courtwith reference thereto.You have a perfect right, as you did, to invoke the fifth amendmentto the first question you answered with reference to your secretaryshipor former secretaryship of the Committee for Protection of ForeignBorn. But then Mr. Arens asked you the question whether or notyou honestly believed that to answer that question might tend or leadto a possible criminal prosecution.Now the courts have said that he has a right to ask you that, to testyour good faith in invoking the fifth amendment.And then you must answer that question "yes" or "no," namely,that you do honestly believe, in invoking the fifth amendment, youmay be subject to a possible criminal prosecution.Mr. MuRRisii. Mr. Chairman, counsel will state for the witness thatthe Supreme Court has several times said the fifth amendment is


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COMAIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6635for the protection of all the people, the innocent as well as the guilty.And it is intimately related to the first amendment and to prosecutionsunder tyrannical or unjust as well as valid prosecutions. It is ob-viousMr. Velde. Our policy is not to allow the attorney to tell the lawto the committee.Mr. MuRKisH. I am attempting to tell counsel.Mr. Velde. You are allowed to advise your client of her rights.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious that counsel for the witness doesn't

understand what I am trying to say.I merely made the explanation because if she does not answer that

question the witness is advised that she subjects herself to possiblecontempt.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. Wlien I stated my position on this I stated it clearly.

I think I did, and I meant to state it clearly. I stand on my consti-tutional grounds of the first and fifth amendments.

I understood the question placed to me. I don't intend to debate itfurther with anyone present.

I don't think there is anything more I can say about it-Mr. ScHERER. We have complied with the court's decisions.Mrs. Smith. I also adopt what my counsel said as a part of my

position.Mr. DoYLE. It is your testimony we w^ant; not your counsel's. He

is not a witness before this committee. He has a perfect right toadvise you at all times as to your legal rights, and we don't object.We are glad to have counsel present. But, for the benefit of thiscounsel and all counsel present in the room, may I make it clear thatfrom this time on I will not permit counsel to take the time of thecommittee to argue with us.We are very sorry, but we do not have the time.Mr. McRRisii. May counsel ask a question on your instructions?Mr. DoYL,E. No.Mr. JiluRRiSH. If a question of law arises may counsel undertake

to state the law ?Mr. DoTLE. No, counsel, please. Under the printed rules of thiscommittee with which you are familiar, and the policy of the com-mittee we have no time to permit counsel to argue with us. We wouldlike to have that time, but we do not have it.May I make it clear to all counsel in this room and to you, sir, thatwe will not hereafter take any time to allow counsel to argue withus on points of law or anything else because we just do not have thetime to do it.

Please let's proceed, Mr. Arens.Mr. Arens. Now, there will be shortly exhibited to you by Mr.Wheeler of this staff a photostatic copy of a signature card which thiscommittee has subpenaed from the California Bank, Los Angeles,Calif. It is a signature card for the Los Angeles Committee forProtection of Foreign Born. It is signed Delphine Murphy Smith,executive secretary. It is dated November 6, 1950.


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6636 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONKindly look at that card and tell this committee whether or not

that is a true and correct reproduction of your signature.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 425a," see appendix, p. 7847.)(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)Mr. AuExs. Would you kindly answer the question ?Mrs. Smith. What was your question?Mr. Ahens. The question is: Does the document which was just

displayed to you by Mr. Wheeler, a photostatic copy of the signaturecard for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bornon file at the California Bank, Los Angeles, Calif., bear a true andcorrect signature of yourself as executive secretary of this Los AngelesCommittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?

Mrs. Smith. I am going to take the position on that that I tookpreviously. I feel that to answer any question for this committeewould be not only a violation of my constitutional rights hut it wouldbe an abrogation of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, which safe-guards all people to answer any question that this committee putsbefore me as a violation of any constitutional grounds that I mightmention here. It is a violation of all constitutional rights.As a matter of fact, I challenge the right of this committee to askme this or any other question. Tlierefore, I am refusing to answerthis on the grounds that I previously stated, the first and fifth amend-ments.Mr. Arens. You probably will observe, if you haven't already ob-served, Mrs. Smith, that the account card for the Los Angeles

Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which we have just dis-played to you, shows, among other things, the following

:

Account formerly with Civil Rights Congress.Did you notice that on the card as it was displayed to you amoment ago ?Mrs. Smith. As I said previously, I don't intend to debate the

merits of that card, whether it is true or false, or debate any of theseissues before the committee. I am stating my position again. I havestated .it clearly.Mr. Arexs. The record will, of course, reflect, as the card is em-bodied in the record, that the account was formerly with the CivilRights Congress, according to this card.Now, Mr. ("Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and whenthis witness signs a voucher for the purpose of procuring an alloca-tion of per diem and travel expenses for appearance today, that partof the voucher which bears her signature be incorporated in thisrecord. And I say so for the reason that it would then be available forcomparison of signatures.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 425b," see appendix p. 7848.)Mr. Doyle. Without objection, it will be so ordered.Mr. MuRRisH. Counsel objects to that. May Counsel object?Counsel objects to that.Mr. Doyle. No, no.Mr. MuRRiSH. You said without objection.Mrs. Smith. I object. The witness objects.


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COMJMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6637Mr. ]SIuKRiSH. And may I respectfully ask the chairman to instructme? Because he said \vithout objection. And I don't want the record

to reflect that I did not object.Mr. Doyle. Noay, Counsel, I made it crystal clear to you that youwere not to address the committee except through your client.

Mrs. Smith. May I state, Mr. Chairman]\Ir. Doyle. This is not a court proceeding.Mr. IMuRRiSTi. iMay I not object?Mr. Doyle. That should be enough. We are all lawyers.Mr. IMuRKTSii. And I may not.Mr. Doyle. Every member of this subcommittee is a lawyer ofmany years of practice. We understand your situation. But therules of the committee do not permit you as a lawyer to make objectionson legal grounds.Mr. MuRRisH. Then when you say no objection you mean by thecommittee.Mr. Doyle. That is right.Mr. MuRRiSH. And not by counsel.Mr. Doyle. That is right.Mr. MuRRiSH. May that be clear? Because I don't want to ac-quiesce in what I would not agree to.Mr. Doyle. We are asking you to acquiesce in the rules of the com-mittee.Mr. MuRRiSH. Yes.Mr. Doyle. And you are witliin your right if you do that.Mr. MuRRisH. Yes.Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. ^Vlieeler is going to display to you a photo-

static reproduction of The Lamp, published by the American Com-mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, dated January 1950. And inthis publication of the American Committee for Protection of ForeignBorn we observe, among other things, the followingA Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was established onNovember 29 at a citywicle conference of organizations. More than 20 nonciti-

zens, residents of Los Angeles, face deportation. The committee's first taskcenters around the fight to prevent arbitrary increases iu bail.Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, and tell the Committee onUn-American Activities while you are presently under oath whether

or not that recitation of the facts is, to your certain knowledge, trueand correct.(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, p. 7111.)(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.Mrs. SsnTH. I am going to decline to answer that question on thesame grounds as I previously stated, the first and fifth amendments to

the Constitution.Mr. Arens, ]\Ir. Wlieeler is going to display to you still anotherdocument. It is a brief history of the Los Angeles Committee forProtection of Foreign Born which has, in the normal course of theactivities of this Committee on Un-American Activities, come into itscustody and control.Will j^ou kindly display that to the witness, please, Mr. Wheeler?(Document marked "Exhibit No. 426," see appendix, pp. 7849-

7851.)


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6638 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Akens. You will observe that in this brief history of the Los

Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born there appears,among other things, the followingIts

that is the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bornprior history was as a subcommittee of political deportees within the CivilRights Congress.Kindly tell the Committee on Un-American Activities whether that

statement, to your certain knowledge, is a true and correct presentationof the facts.Mrs. Smith. I would like to state that I don't intend to answer that

question. The reason I don't intend to answer it is that I deny thatthis committee has the right to ask m.e any such question pertaining tomy thoughts,my ideas, or my associations.

Therefore, I "take the same stand that I have taken before.If you ask me a thousand questions you will get a thousand an-swers the same as I have given you.Mr. ScHERER. No matter what the questions are ?

Mrs. Smith. Pertaining to any abrogation of the Bill of Rightsand my rights under the Constitution.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wlieeler is going to display to you another docu-ment which is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of a letter purport-edly from the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom,dated October 27, 1950, addressed to Mr. Abner Green in New YorkCity."Dear Abner" and so forth, and signed "Delphine Smith, executivesecretary."Kindly look at that document and tell this committee whether ornot it presents a true and correct designation of yourself.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 427," see api)endix, p. 7852.)(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ?

Mrs. Smith. As I stated before, I refuse to answer that questionon the same grounds.And, in addition, to the committee, I deny that this committee hasthe right to ask me any such questions, the questions what I do, whomI associate with, what I think, or what ideas I have.

Therefore, I stand on the same constitutional grounds, the first andfifth amendments.Mr. Arens. Mr. "VVheeler will display to you a photostatic copyof the Daily People's World of November 24, 1950, containing aletter to the editor, signed "Delphine Murphy Smith, executive sec-retary, Committee for Protection of Foreign Born."

Tlie letter is with reference to certain activities of the Los AngelesCommittee for the Protection of Foreign Born.Kindly look at that exhibit, if you please, ma'am, and tell the com-mittee whether or not that is a true and correct reproduction of aletter which you sent to the Daily People's World.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 428," see appendix, p. 7853.)(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)Mr. Arkns. Would you kindly answer the question.

Mrs. Smith. I feel compelled to refuse to answer that question.It is a tradition in the United States that people write letters to

editors. They have a right to write them.


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COMROJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6639And anything that you might produce there as a photostatic copy

of this or that, whatever it might beanyone who writes a letter hasa riglit to write it.Mr. Arens. Did you write the letter, is all we are asking.

Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that for the reasons, same reasons,I have stated.Mr. Arens. Mr. '\^'lieeler will exhibit another document to you, areproduction of a letter of the Los Angeles Committee for Protectionof Foreign Born, an appeal for money, signed "Delphine M. Smith,Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born."(Document marked "Exhibit No. 429," see appendix, p. 7854.)While he is in the process of physically transporting this documentfor your perusal tell the committee whether or not you have registeredunder the Lobbying Act of the United States Congress.Mrs. Smith. Lobbying Act of the United States Congress?Mr. Arexs. Yes. Have j^ou ever registered under the LobbyingAct?Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest that this witness be ordered and

directed to answer that question. It is a matter of public record.Mr. Dotle. It is surely an appropriate question, and I instructthe witness to answer.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. If this is a matter of public record, then you know it.If it is not a matter of public record, then you have no right torequest it.Therefore, I decline to answer on the same grounds.As I said before, no matter how many questions you place to me

that are in abrogation of my rights under the Constitution, I willrefuse to answer as man 3^ questions.Mr. Scherer. You mean this committee doesn't have the right toask you whether you are a registered lobbyist ?Do you really mean that ? Do you feel that would incriminate youto answer that question ?Mrs. Smith. As I stated, I decline to answer under the grounds ofthe first and fifth amendments.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. And, as I said, I deny to you that you have the right

to ask me such a question.^Ir. Scherer. All right. This member of the committee feels thatyour refusal to answer that question places you in contempt. Just soyou may understand.Mrs. Smith. If you place me in contempt, this is not my difficulty ; it

is not my thought. I have refused to answer on constitutional groundsthose things which I felt were an abrogation of my rights under theConstitution.Mr. Scherer. It is our duty to advise you how we feel when you

fail to answer the question.Mrs. Smith. I haven't failed to answer any question. I haveanswered all of your questions to the best of my ability under the

Constituti on. I have refusedMr. Scherer. You have refused to answer.Mrs. Smith. May I finish my answer, please?


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6640 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONI have only refused to answer those questions which I consider to

be an abrogation of my rights under the Constitution, the first andfifth amendments. That guarantees me the right to refuse to answerany questions that I feel may incriminate me and eventually, in someway or other, perhaps incrinunate other people.

I am only speaking for myself when I say I refuse to answer onthese grounds. They are strictly constitutional grounds.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you feel that you could refuse to answer a ques-tion of this committee which might incriminate someone else?Mrs. Smith. I certainly do not. I feel that my rights are being

protected.Mr. ScHERER. Th;it is what you said.Mrs. Smith. I said perhaps eventually in some wa^'I am not speaking for somebody else. I am merely speaking for

myself. I can't plead self-incrimination for somebody else; onlyfor myself.Mr. Arens. Is the record clear that this witness is ordered and di-rected to answer whether or not she is registered under the FederalLobbying Act?Mr. DoTLE. If it isn't clear I will again instruct the witness.You are instructed to answer the question whether or not you areregistered under the Federal Lobbying Act.Mrs. Smith. I repeat what I said before. I refuse to answer on

these grounds previously stated.Mr. Doyle. Very well.Mr. Arens. Have you ever been employed at the Cannon Electric

Co.?Mrs. Smith. You are inquiring into my places of employment, my

thoughts, and associations again.Again I must refuse to answer for the same reason.Mr. Arens. IMr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness beordered and directed to answer the question.Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer the question. It manifestlyis an appropriate question.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that question also, on the same

grounds.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler is going to display to you a copy of theCommunist Daily People's World with reference to the disassocia-tion from the Camion Electric Co. of certain employees. And thearticle has this heading: "Cannon Electric has carried out its firsttwo loyalty firings under agreement" and so forth, listing 1 or 2persons who have been disassociated under a loyalty program ofCannon Electric, including one Mrs. Delphine M. Smith.Kindly look at that exhibit and tell this committee whether or notyou were fired from Cannon Electric under a loyalty program.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 430," see appendix, p. 7855.)(The witness confers with her counsel.Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that question along with the other

questions for the same reasons as stated, the first and fifth amend-ments.Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention, if you please, to still an-

other document from the Communist Daily People's World. It is an


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comjmunist political subversion 6641article appearing under date of Monday, August 15, 1949: "CivilRights Congress unit hits customs for leaflet seizures."

I summarize the essence of the article with reference to seizures bycustoms officials of certain propaganda coming into the United States.It quotes in this article a Mrs. Delphine Smith, identified in the articleas from the Los Angeles Civil Rights Congress, and a member of thedelegation filing the protest.Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, ma'am, and tell the com-mittee whether or not it is an accurate representation of the facts.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 431," see appendix, p. 7856.)Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer this, as other questions, and repeatyou have no right to ask me this, 3'ou or any other body so constituted.Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document.We the people of the United States, of the city of Los Angeles in the State ofCalifornia, do on this ISTth anniversary rededicate ourselves to the principles of

the Bill of Rights.And this document attacks the House Committee on Un-American

Activities. It protests the indictment of the Communist Party traitorsin New York City. It protests a number of things. And it is signedby a number of persons, including one Delphine Smith, and issued bytlie Los Angeles Civil Rights Congress.Kindly look at this document Mr. "Wlieeler is displaying to you,and tell us whether or not you were one of the participants andleaders in that movement.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 432," see appendix, p. 7857.)(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mrs. Smith. In placing these documents, as you call them, before meand asking me these questions you are in violation of the first amend-ment to the Constitution.The first amendment protects all citizens. Therefore, I have re-fused to answer this in the same manner, the first and fifth amend-ments. I want to protect the rights of people to speak.Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of an organization dedicated tothe destruction of the Constitution of the United States?Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds that I

have stated previously, and will continue to state. The grounds ofthe first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that, in thepresence of this witness, another witness be sworn.Mr. Stephen "Wereb.Would you kindly coine forward.Mr. Doyle. Very well.Mr. Arens. Please remain standing, Mr. Wereb, while the chair-man administers an oath to you.Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truthand nothing but the truth, so help you God ?Mr. Werer. I do.

TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN A. WEEEBMr. Arens. Won't you have a seat, please, Mr. Wereb.Kindly identify yourself, if you please, sir, by name, residence,and occupation.


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6642 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Wereb. My name is Stephen A. Wereb. I own and operate theWeber Typewriter Service. I am a resident citizen of the UnitedStates.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, I expect to interrogate you at length in a

little while on other matters. But, for the present, may I ask, haveJ ou ever been a member of the Communist Party ?Mr. Wereb. At the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,I was, sir.Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you a member of theCommunist Party ?Mr. Wereb. 1944, early part of, until the middle part of 1948.Mr. Arens. During all of the time of your membership in the Com-munist Party were you so engaged solely and exclusively at thebehest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to serve your country ?Mr. Wereb. That is correct.Mr. Arens. Were you at any time ideologically identified with theconspiracy ?Mr. Wereb. No, sir.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, in the course of your membership in theCommunist Party did you have occasion to know a person by thename of Delphine Murphy Smith ?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Did you know that person as a Communist?Mr. Wereb. I did.Mr. Arens. Do you see that person in the hearing room today ?Mr. Wereb. I do.Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point her out to the committee.Mr. Wereb. That is Delphine Smith sitting there in the blue dress.Mr. Doyle. In the witness chair ?Mr. Wereb. Yes. Wearing the blue dress.TESTIMONY OF MRS. DELPHINE MUEPHY SMITHResumedMr. Arens. Mrs. Smith, would you kindly look around to yourright at the gentleman who has just testified under oath.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mr. Arens. Mrs. Smith, while you are under oath, would you kindlylook at the gentleman who has just testified. Look him in the

face and tell this committee while you are under oath and while heis under oath, did he lie or did he tell the truth when he said he knewyou as a Communist.Mrs. Smith. I don't intend to dignify these proceedings by answer-ing that question "Yes" or "No" or looking around at the witness.He is your witness. I don't intend to look at him. I have no interestin looking at him. I, therefore, refuse to answer on the same groundsI previously stated. I think this is a terrible violation of my rights oranybody else's rights under the Constitution, that I should be re-quired to question somebody, look at them or anything else. It hasnothing to do with it.Mr. Sciierer. I ask that you direct the witness to look at the wit-ness Wereb.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mr. Doyle. Just as soon as she is through conferring watli counsel.Mrs. Smith. I stand on the same grounds that I previously stoodon. I restate what I said before.


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COMIVIXINIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6643Mr. ScHERER. The record should show that the witness refused to

look at the witness as requested.Mr. Doyle. So that the record will show, I instruct you to face the

witness Mr. Wereb who has, under oath, sworn that he knew you asa member of the Communist Party. And ask you if you recognizehim.Mrs. Smith. I don't intend to dignity these proceedings by doingany thing of the sort. And I refuse on the same grounds that I pre-viously stated.Mr.ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this will concludethe staff interrogation of ]\Ii-s. Smith, with our thanks, if you please,Mrs. Smith.We would like, if you please, Mr. Chairman, to continue with theinterrogation of Mr. Wereb if the committee has no further questionsof Mrs. Smith.Mr. Doyle. Counsel, may I ask Mr. Wereb one question while Mrs.Smith is in the chair.Mr. V/ereb, you have been in the hearing room since the commence-ment of the hearing this morning ?Mr. Wereb. I have, sir.Mr. Doyle. You were here when Mrs. Smith, the witness presently

in the witness chair, was called and took the oath?Mr. Wereb. I was, sir.Mr. Doyle. You have observed her for the last 10 or 15 minuteswhile she has been on the stand ?Mr. Wereb. I did.Mr. Doyle. And you observed lier, within 10 or 15 feet of her, at all

times ?Mrs. Wereb. That is correct.Mr. Doyle. Is there any question in your mind but that this Mrs.Smith whom you have identified as a Communist is the one youknew as a Communist while you were an FBI agent ?Mr. Wereb. Not one whatsoever.Mr. Arens. I have one other question of Mrs. Smith.Mrs. Smith, I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny

the fact that you were one of the leading colonizers in heavy industryin the Los Angeles area for the Communist conspiracy, and that youwere first executive secretary at the behest of the Communist con-spiracy for the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of ForeignBorn.

Please answer that question while you are under oath.(The witness confers with her counsel.)Mrs. Smith. You know you asked me some questions herethisquestion is one of themin which you are violating the very principleswhich you purport to support. You purport to support and protect

the Constitution of the United States. By the mere existence of thiscommittee, each of you in your own way has abrogated the rij^htsunder the Constitution. You are denying that we have these riglits.And I would like to state that you are o, 5 lawyers. You said so earlier.I am no lawyer. 1 am expected to come here and pit my wits againstyou, against lawyers. So I am compelled to say what I have said.Not only compelled to protect myself, but I am compelled to protectthe Constitution of which I am being accused of violating.Mr. SciiERER. Which you Communists would destroy.


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6644 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMrs. Smith. Would you please not interrupt me ?Mr. SciiERER, iVnd you Communists would destroy it if you had the

opportunity.Mrs. Smith. Are you askingme or telling me ?Mr. ScHERER. It is a comment. That is all.Mrs. Smith. You may comment. This is your committee; it is

not mine.Mr. ScHERER. Obviously, madam.Mr. Doyle. Counsel, I think that at this point it might be well tohave the record show that, in line with my opening statement, theLos Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has longranked as one of the major adjuncts of the American Committee forProtection of Foreign Born. Let the record show, and it is under-stood, that one reason we are questioning I^Irs. Smith is not only be-cause she has been identified under oath by Mr. Wereb here in herimmediate presence just now, but that in the Guide to SubversiveOrganizations and Publications published by this committee May 14,1951, page 13 thereof, it shows, first, that the American Committee forProtection of Foreign Born, in which the Los Angeles committee isone of the main adjuncts, was cited as subversive and Communist byAttorney General Tom Clark on June 1, 1948, and September 21, 1948and that on March 29, 1944, and June 25, 1942, the Special Committeeon Un-American Activities published a statement saying

:

One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United States.And then the California Committee on Un-American Activities, in itsreport of 1947, declared as follows"Among the Communist-front organizations for racial agitation" which alsoserve as "money-collecting media" and "as special political organizing centersfor the racial minority they pretend to champion." Works closely with theInternational Labor Defense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense offoreign-born Communists and sympathizers.I wanted the record to show that for the benefit of Mrs. Smith, soshe will further understand why we have called her and asked these

questions.Mrs. Smith. You have taken a good deal of time, Mr. Chairman, toattack the Constitution. I wonder if you will permit me as muchtime to attack this committee and give valid reasons for attacking it?Mr. Doyle. We have been very courteous, and glad to be cooperativewith you.Mrs. Smith. Will you deny me the right to do that? Will youdeny me the same amount of time that you had to attack the Con-

stitution ?Mr. Doyle. You take all the time you please to make this a forumfor your speech, and that is all right.

^ Mrs. Smith. Do you deny me the right to take the same length oftime you have had to attack tlie Constitution, to defend the Con-stitution and attack this committee? Will you give me that right?Mr. ScHERER. Madam, if you will answer any of the questions thatMr. Arens asks you, any of the pertinent

Mrs. Smith. I answered every question that was asked me exceptthose in abrogation of my constitutional rights. I stood on thosegrounds only.Mr, ScHERER. You answered the question about your name and yourlocation of your employment, and that is all you have answered. The


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6645rest of the questions you have refused to answer, invoking the fifthamendment. Now I am sayinp; that

Mrs. Smith. You are in vioLation of the Constitution. For thatreason I refused to answer them, and only that reason.Mr. ScHERER. If you will answer those questions we will let youspeak for a half hour.

Mrs. Smith. You say that I can only answer those questions whichyou want me to answer. I can only say those things which you, inyour narrow little thinking, deem right for me to answer, I can onlyanswer the tilings that you think I should answer. In other words,you are denying me the right to say what I want to say.This is exactly what I said when I came before this committee, thatyou are denying the right of freedom of speech, the first amendment.You are probing into tlioughts and associations.Mr. Velde. Mrs. Smith, do you actually have contempt for thiscommittee ?Mrs. Smith. I refuse to answer questionsMr. Velde. Will you answer that question ? Do you have contempt

for this committee ?Mrs. Smith. You are denying me tliat right.Mr. Velde. Do you have contempt for this committee ? ,Mrs. Smith. 1 refuse to answer that in this committee while the

cards are stacked against me. You are lawyers. I am not a lawyer.I don't have the command of knowledge that you have pertaining tolaw.

Mr. Veij)e. May I say, Mr. Chairman, I associate myself with Mr.Scherer.Mrs. Smith. I would debate these things publicly with anybody, but

not before this committee.Mr, Dotle. Mrs. Smith, you have very able counsel by your side.Are there any other questions ?Mr. Scherer. I have just one question.Have you continued to be a member of the Communist Party sincethe Russians marched into Hungary?

Mrs. Smith. Sir, I consider that a baiting question. You are at-tempting to anger me. to throw me off guard, so I Avill say some ter-rible thing that yon will say "Ah, now we have her."'

I refuse to debate these questions with you. In an open and freeand public forum ; yes, I would de!)ate any number of questions, in-


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6646 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMrs. Smith, I have stated my reasons. I will reiterate those rea-

sons, the first and fifth amendments. As I said, no matter how manytimes you ask me, it will still be these gi'ounds.Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Smith, it is not always that we are able to produceface to face a person wlio identifies another person as a member of theCommunist Party. This morning we have been able to do thatfor your benefit in producing Mr. Wereb. He is right here within4 or 5 feet of you.I wish to ask you again whether or not 3 ou care to affirm or deny or

state that Mr. Wereb's testimony is false and untrue. He is underoath also.What is your answer to that question?Mrs. Smith. As I said before, I don't intend to, now or at any time,

dignify your witness by even looking at him. He is of no consequencetome.Mr. Doyle. Any other questions?Mr. Arens. No thank you, Mr. Chairman.Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mrs. Smith. You are excused.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, kindly assume the witness chair.

TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN A. WEREBResumedMr. Arens. Mr. Wereb, you have previously testified before theCommittee on Un-American Activities?Mr. Wereb. I have, sir.Mr. Arens. We have, for present purposes, only a few questions

to ask you to complete the record on tlie subject matter under con-sideration by the committee.During the course of your membership in the Communist Partyat the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation did you knowa person by the name of Carl Brant, B-r-a-n-t ?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Kindly tell the committee the circumstances of youracquaintanceship with him and any information you may have respect-ing activities which were, to your judgment, detrimental to thesecurity interests of this Nation.Mr. Wereb. This is going to be a long answer. Do you mind?Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.Mr. Wereb. I met Mr. Brant, Carl Brant, at one of the functionarymeetings at the Los Angeles County Communist Party. He was in-troduced to me at that time as the labor chairman.Carl Brant has appeared at every functionary meeting of the LosAngeles County Communist Party that I can recall from 1944: to

1948.He also was known to me as a representative of a union.Carl Brant has been one of the policy formers of the Los AngelesCounty Communist Party. He was the chairman of the resolutionscommittee at the flip-flop of the Browder firing. He is the man whowrote and presented to the functionaries and to the convention at thattime a resolution condenming the action of the United States Gov-ernment.He is the same gentlemanthe same man. I beg your pardon. He

is the same man who advocated violence for the first time, in myyears' living in the United States, openly and publicly.


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6647Mr. Arens. Do you have a specific illustration of that advocacy of

violence?Mr. Wereb. I was on the functionary committee of the bay area,wliich took in Torrance, Hawthorne, Inolewood, and the southwestsection. Also members of what they call the Southwest. IndustrialSection.Mr. DoYx,E. May I interrupt.The functionary committee of what?Mr. Wereb. I am speaking of the Communist Party, sir.Mr. Doyle. You were ?Mr. Wereb. Yes, sir.One afternoon we had a call from the Los Angeles County Commit-

tee at 124 West 6th Street from a person by the name of XemmySparks, who was then the chairman of the Los Angeles County Com-munist Party. He said, "Steve, I want to you to go to a meeting atan auditorium." He gave me the address, which I don't have the cor-rect number at the present time, but it is located at Jefferson nearVermont Avenue. There were about 15 to 20 functionaries at thatmeeting.Bud Blair was the chairman of the Southwest Industrial Section.Bud Blair i]itroduced this man to the functionaries as the labor chair-man of the Los Angeles County Communist Party, and that he wouldaddress the crowd.

Carl Brant stood on the podium and told the group that the Fascistcourts of the United States, or the State of California, have orderedthe limiting of pickets at a plant, the United States Motors, at thattime on strike, and that he was not going to stand for any screwyFascist decisions.He demanded that each one of the fmictionaries there, whose dutyit was to mobilize manpower, bring at least 250 people for the follow-ing morning to this plant which was located between Avalon andMain Street on Slauson Avenue. At least 250 husky manpower.

I was personally instructed to bring the longshoremen, stevedores,and those people of the Maritime Workers because it was mypar-tially my district. And at 7 o'clock the following morning they wouldgive the Los Angeles Police Department all the hell that they werelookmg for. There would be violence. And the huskier the man-power the better it would be.

I most naturally did not call anyone but the proper authorities forthat.And Carl Brant the following morning led a group of people withPhilip Connelly. They were at the head of this parade that weregomg to whip the police. He headed this group. I imagine therewere 3,000 people in this group. They were armed with civilian de-fense helmets to keep from getting hurt by the police. Some of themcarried their batons that were used, sticks and things that were gath-ered at this hall v.liere the gathering took place. And they were go-ing to be used against the police after the police warning, calling thecourt order to the men over and over.Mind you all these people were not Communists. These were unionpeople who were being led and duped by a Communist.Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify Carl Brant as a personwho, to your certain knowledge, w as a Communist and a member ofthe Communist conspiratorial apparatus?


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6648 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Wereb. I have not seen him, sir.Mr. Arexs. Did you know him as a Communist. ?Mr. AVereb. I did know him at that time as a Communist.Mr. Arens. When was that ?Mr. Wereb. That was from 1944 until the middle of 1948.Mr. Arens. Did you in the course of your experience in the Com-munist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigationknow a person by the name of Charles Gladstone ?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Could you give us further identification of Charles

Gladstone?Mr. Wereb. Charles Gladstone, sir, was a member of, I believe, thegarment industry.Mr. Arens. Where ?Mr. Wereb. In the city of Los Angeles. Also a longtime member

of the Communist Party,The very first time I was introduced to him, I was introduced tohim by a woman who was a secretary and m.embership secretary ofour group, Edith Smith. And she introduced me to him as CharleyYoung once; the next time as Charles Gladstone, and I believe therewas another alias which I don't recall at this time.And he was active, very active in the county conunittee and in func-tionary meetings. I have seen him many and many a time at those

doings.Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of your experience in the Commu-nist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, knowa person by the name of Sanford Goldner, G-o-l-d-n-e-r ?Mr. Wereb. I have seen him not too many times. Four or five timesI have seen him, sir.Mr. Arens. Where?Mr. Wereb. I have seen him at functionary meetings at 2222 West7th Street.Mr. Arens. Were those meetings to which only Communists were

admissible ?Mr. Wereb. That is correct. Not only Communists but they wereComjnunist functionaries only.Mr. Arens. Those would be full-time members of the party?Mr. Wereb. That is correct.Mr. Arens. Do you identify him as a person who, to your certain

knowledge, was a Communist?Mr. Wereb. At that time ; yes, sir.Mr. Arens. Did you, during the course of your experience in the

Conununist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investiga-tion, know a pei-son by the name of John Uhrin, U-h-r-i-n?Mr. Wereb. I have seen Mr. John UhrinI believe I have seen himin the room this morning. He is one of the few that I have seen inthe room. He has been very active in the foreign end, or the Hun-garian group.Mr. Arens. Of what?Mr. Wereb. Of the Communist Party. He has controlled the veryfirst workers' corps, workers' club, and the workers' movement in theHungarian movement as early as 1921 when he first came.


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6649Mr. Arens. Is he a person who, to your certain knowledge, was amember of the Communist Party ?Mr. AVereb. He has attended Communist Party meetings in my pres-

ence, sir.Mr. Arens. "Were those meetings to which only comrades were ad-missible?Mr. Wereb. I would not be too sure, and I wouldn't recall that at

this time, sir.Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist?Mr. Wereb. I do know that, sir.Mr. Arens. Did you know, during the course of your experiencein the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of In-vestigation, a man by the name of Frank Whitley, W-h-i-t-1-e-y ?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?Mr. Wereb. Pie was a Communist. He was a member of the WestAdams group.With all apologies to everybody hereI don't mean to point outanybody's racehe was a colored gentleman, and heI will change

that again. He was a colored man. And he tried very, very hard anumber of times to become an elected or appointed member of thecounty committee, and he never made it. But he always acted as afunctionary from the West Adams group.Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Connnunist?Mr. Wereb. I did, sir.Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Wereb, during the course of your experience

in the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of In-vestigation, did you have occasion to acquire information respectingthe emphasis wliich the Communist Party placed on a counterattackagainst the legislative efforts to expose and deal with the CommunistParty, such as the Smitli Act, the Internal Security Act, the securityprovisions of the ImmigTation and Nationality Act, Communist Con-trol Act, and comparable legislation?Mr. Wereb. I do, sir.Mr. Arens. To what extent was there an emphasis plaoed by theCommunist Part}', and to what extent is there presently an emphasisplaced by the Communist Partj^ and its front groups in creatingsentiment and in undertaking to engage in what we might call politi-cal subversion against this legislative effort of the Congress ?Mr. Wereb. At the time of my membership, sir, I do not recall just

at this present time how many fronts or how many groups the Com-munist Party had started. It was the order of one meeting wherethe chairman and speaker was William Schneiderman, who was con-victed under the Smith Act.Not at that time, of course. He has been convicted since.Mr. Schneiderman stood before the crowd and told everyone to bedoubly aware of anyone who might have police, Federal Bureau ofInvestigation, or any spy activities whatsoever because from then onthey would have to split the party into small splinters, and the smallsplinters would have to control friendly groups. They called themat that time supportive groups.And these groups I never had a chance to work in directly because

I worked from 4 to 5 nights every week, including almost every Sun-


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6650 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUB^'ERSIONday. And it was one of those things that I just couldn't take part ineverythin


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6651(Wliereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-

ent : Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.Committee m.embers present: Representatives Doyle, Velde andScherer.Mr. Doyle. The committee will please be in session.May I make two statements.

First, there will be absolutely no smoking in this room, by orderof the United States marshal.

Secondly, I want to thank the audience for its cooperation thismorning in making it fairly easy for the committee to function andfor everyone to be heard.The committee will adjourn at 12 o'clock, and reconvene at 2.Mr. Arens. Mr. Carl Brant, kindly come forward.Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnlj'^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truthand nothing but the truth, so help you God ?Mr. Brant. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CARL BEANT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,JOHN W. PORTERMr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, is this hearing being televised?Mr. Doyle. "Well, your pictures are being taken, as you see.Mr. Brant. Is it being televised ?Mr. Doyle. No, it is not, I am informed.Mr. Brant. Would you mind identifying this gentleman up here?

Is he one of the committee ?Mr. Doyle. Never mind. Let's proceed.I have told you I am informed it is not being televised.Let's proceed.Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-

pation.Mr. Brant. Carl Brant, 2843 Avenel Street, construction worker.Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, you are appearing today in response to asubpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities ?Mr. Brant. Yes.Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?Mr. Brant. Yes.Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourself.Mr. Porter. John W. Porter, Los Angeles.Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, where are you employed?]\Ir. Brant. Well, I want to answer that question in this wayI would like to make clear that my attitude toward this committeeand my response to any questions asked of me are determined by sev-

eral factors.Mr. Arens. Just tell us, are you reading from a prepared statement?Mr. Brant. I have some notes.Mr. Arens. Wlio prepared those notes ?Mr. Brant. I decline to answer that question.Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness beordered and directed to answer that question.


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6652 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Brant. I am tryinf]^ to answer the original question. Am Igoing to be permitted to answer it ?Mr. Doyle. Answer the original question, but don't read a long

statement to us.Mr. Brant. I haven't got a long statement. I want to answer thequestion. You brought me up here and expect me to answer questions.Mr. Arens. Tell the committeeand we will supersede all questionswith this for the momentto your certain knowledge was it

a Communist who participated in the preparation of the statementAvhicli you are about to read to the committee.Mr. Brant. The history and the record of this committee beingwhat it is, and my rights being placed in jeopardy, and this com-mittee being established, in my opinion, in violation of the first amend-ment to the Constitution of the United Statesbecause this commit-tee was set up under a resolution which states that its sole purpose is toinvestigate propaganda

Since propaganda is the propagation of ideas, it is a violation ofthe first amendment to the Constitution. I don't intend to be a partyto any violation of the first amendment to the Constitution.

I believe that thisMr. Arens. Would you hesitate there a moment ?Mr. Brant. Why don't you let me finish ?Mr. Arens. Will you tell us about any conspiratorial overt acts

of which you may have knowledge ?Mr. Brant. Are you afraid to let me finish the answer to the ques-tion you asked me ? You are trying to interrupt me ever}'^ time I getstarted.Mr. Arens. You go right ahead.Mr. Brant. Thank you.Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.Before he goes ahead I want to ask counsel a question.

Is this the man that Wereb just identified ?Mr. Brant. He is interrupting again. I thought I was going tohave a chance to answer the question.Mr. Scherer. Is this the man just identified as advocating forceand violence and overthrow of this Government ?Mr. Arens. Yes, that is the man. Yes, sir.Mr. Scherer. Now I understand.Mr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, could I finish the answer to the question ?Mr. Doyle. Let's you and I have an understanding because I have

an obligation, too.I will not have time to let you make this hearing a forum for a longdissertationyou understand thatfor a long speech.Mr. Brant. I want to inform you, Mr. Doyle, that I don't desire

that opportunity for a long time to talk.Mr. Doyle. I will expect you to be brief.Mr. Brant. I will try to be as brief as I can and within thede-

pending, of course, upon the kind of questions you ask of me andthe kind of interruptions that take place and so forth.But I. of course, did not come here willingly. I wouldn't come toa meeting before a connnittee of this type of my own free will andvolition.Mr. Doyle. We know that. Please answer the question and don'tmake this a forum for your prepared speech, please. I know youwould like to.


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6653Mr, Brant. Well, I am going to refuse to answer any questionswhich invade my legal rights. And the record of the committee is

such that I find it incumbent to do so. The Detroit Free Press, forexampleMr, ScHERER. I object to any reading of what the Detroit FreePress said.Mr, Brant. Are you afraid to hear what the Detroit Free Presssaid about this committee?Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-tion. And if he doesn't answer it and he continues to make a speechwe proceed to the next question. Then I will move to cite this Com-munist for contempt.Mr, Brant. What is this here, Mr. Chairman ?Mr. Velde. I will second the motion.Mr. Brant. I am here at the instance of the committee, and thereis a gadget here. I would like to know what is going on.Mr, Porter. This witness has a right to counsel, Mr. Chairman,

free from snooping and wiretapping and listening in.I ask the chairman to direct the man with the device here at the

witness' left to remove himself.Mr, Doyle, Yes. What is that ?Broadcasting Technician. Mutual Broadcasting System, sir.Mr. Doyle. The Avitness objects to it. Please desist.Mr, Arens, Mr. Brant, let's get back to the principal question.Where are you employed ?Mr, Brant, I decline to answer that question because of the rea-

sons that I was trying to state, and I want to finish stating them totJieMr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be

ordered and directed to answer the question.Mr. Brant. I am trying to answer the question.Mr. ScHERER. He is making a speech. I ask that you direct thew^itness to answer the question. If he does not invoke the fifth amend-ment, let's proceed to the next cjuestion.Mr, Brant. I am trying toMr, Scherer. I am not interested in listening to a manMr. Br.\nt. I am trying to invoke the first and fifth amendments

to the Constitution of the United States.Mr. Doyle. That is all you have to state. We are not going tolet you read an editorial from any paper or anything of that sort.

Please proceed and cooperate with the committee rules.Mr. Scherer. I suggest we proceed to the next question.Mr. Brant, I would like to have cooperation from tlie conmiitteealso. This is not a free and equal forum that is taking place here

today because you areMr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Stephen Wereb?Mr. Brant. I decline to ansAver that question because of the rea-sons I have already stated under the first and fifth amendments tothe Constitution. It is an invasion of my legal rights, and I am notgoing to ansAver the question.Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Wereb took an oath a feAV minutes ago,Mr. Wereb, would you please stand?(The witness, Wereb, arose.)


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6654 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONMr. Arens. Look over your shoulder, please, Mr. Brant, at Mr.Wereb.Mr. Brant. I don't care to look over my shoulder at this creature.Mr. SciiERER. Just a minute. I ask that you direct the witnessMr. DoTLE. May we ask your cooperation for the purpose of identi-

fication ? Because you are both under oath.Mr. Brant. I don't believe I am under any obligation to do that,Mr. Chairman. I refuse to do it.Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct him to look at the witness.Mr. Doyle. I am directing you to look at the witness Mr. Wereb.Mr. Brant. When you show courtesy to me and permit me to pro-

ceed without interruptions, I certainly will give you every courtesyin the world.Mr. Arens. Will you tell us about the Communist conspiracy if

you have any information on that ?Mr. Brant. That is a question that is asked for publicity purposes.It is a loaded question. I will not answer the question under thefirst and fifth amendments of the Constitution.Mr. Arens. Mr. Wereb testified under oath a little while ago, laidhis liberty on the line, and said that he knew you as a member of theCommunist conspiratorial apparatus. While you are imder oath tellthe committee was he lying or was he telling the truth.Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons I havealready given.

]\rr. Arens. Give the reasons again.Mr. Brant. The first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.Of course, I haven't been giving them fully, but I do stand on thefirst and fifth amendments.

JNIr. Doyle. Those are sufficient and we respect them, of course,the same as you do.Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committeetruthfully whether or not you know Mr. Wereb you would be supply-ing information which could be used against you in a criminal pro-ceeding ?Mr. Brant. I don't care to answer that question.Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness beordered and directed to answer the question.Mr. Porter. I suggest that counsel be directed to show the courtesyto the witness of not interrupting before the witness has been given areasonable opportmiity to answer the question.Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel to the witness beadmoniphed that his sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise hisclient as to his constitutional rights.Mr. Porter. If counsel will not observe the amenities on the part ofthe committee, counsel for the witness has to fight to protect the wit-ness.Mr. Doyle. You are well acquainted with the proceedings of thecommittee, and I ask your cooperation, Attorney Porter, in not vio-lating the rules of the committee. I am sure you will do that.Now_ the question is one that I believe is entirely appropriate forme to instruct you to answer, and I instruct you to answer the lastquestion.Mr. Brant. Wliat is the question, Mr. Doyle ?


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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6655Mr. DoTLE. May we have the question, please, Mr. Reporter ?(Wliereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows :)Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee truthfully whether ornot you know Mr. Wereb you would be supplying information which could beused against you in a criminal proceeding?Mr. Brant. Mr. Chairman, I don't have to state the reasons in

explanation of any legal position. I simply stand on the first andfifth amendments.Mr. ScHERER. The Court says you do. You have to answer thatquestion yes or no. If you don't, you are in contempt of the committee.Mr. DoTLE. What is your answer to that last question ?Mr. Brant. I answer it by stating that I stand on the fifth amend-ment. And the first amendment, of course.Mr. Arens. We have just one other little preliminaiy.Do you know your counsel, Mr. Porter, in any capacity other thanthe capacity of attorney and client ?Mr. Brant. I think that is a very unfair question. And I think

it is a statement which has no place in these proceedings. My counselis here to represent me legally.Mr. Arens. Yes, and I am just asking you if you know him in anyother capacity.Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer any question of that type you haveasked, under the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness beordered and directed to answer that question.Mr. Brant. And I have my right to legal counsel.Mr. Arens. We want you to have legal counsel.Tell this committee do you know your counsel, Mr. Porter, in any

capacity other than as legal counsel. 'Mr. Brant. I have already answered the question.Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered and di-rected to answer the question.Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer it under the first and fifth amend-ments.Mr. Arens. Mr. Brant, Mr. Wliecler is going to lay before you 5

letterheads of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of ForeignBorn, and on each of these letterheads your name appears as a sponsorof the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Twoare in 1954, another in 1955, and two back in 1953.(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 433-437, see appendix, pp. 7858-7860.)Would you kindly look at those letterheads and see if you canhelp this committee of the Congress undertaking to develop factson subversion as to whether or not you are accurately described there

as a sponsor of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of ForeignBorn as of the dates indicated?(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)Mr. Brant. There's several documents here. What is your question ?Mr. Arens. Out of the several dates there I just thought you per-haps could tell us whether or not any of those exhibits accuratelydescribe you as a sponsor.


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6656 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIONKindly look at those letterheads and tell the committee whether or

not you are accurately described as a sponsor of the Los AngelesCommittee for Protection of Foreign Born.(Tlie witness confers with his counsel and examines documents.)Mr. Brant. I notice one of them states that you have(The witness confers with his counsel.)Mr. Arens. Would you please answer the question.Mr. Brant. Just a moment. I will.Mr. Arens. Thank you.Mr. Brant. I refuse to answer the question under the first and fifthamendments.Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told the com-

mittee truthfully whether or not you are and have been a sponsor ofthe Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you wouldbe supplying information which might be used against you in a crimi-nal proceeding?(The witness confers with his counsel.)Mr. Brant. 1 refuse to answer that question under the fifth amend-ment.

]Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be orderedand directed to answer that question.Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that last question.(The witness confers with his counsel.)Mr. Brant, The same answer.Mr. Dotle. As you gave before to the same question ?Mr. Brant. Yes.Mr. Doyle. The first and fifth amendments?Mr. Brant. My answer is that I am standing on the first and fifthamendments.Mr. Arens. Now we have, Mr. Brant, a publication of the Com-munist Party itself of 19.30.Twenty Years of Growth and Progress of the Communist Party,USA. _ _ _ . . .And it sets forth the executive committee. And tliis publicationidentifies as one member of the executive connnittee of the Communitsconspiratorial apparatus a person by the name of Carl Brant.

Please look at that publication and tell us whether or not certainjDages accurately describe you and your status as a member of theExecutive Committee of the Communist Party.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 438a, b," see appendix, pp. 7861,T862.)(The witness examines document.)Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question on the first and fifthamendments of the Constitution.]Mr. Arens. Did that publication of the Connnunist Party lie or did

it tell the truth when it said that you were a member of the executivecommittee of this congressional district of the Communist conspiracy ^Mr. Brant. Same answer.Mr. Arens. Now do you know a man by the name of William WardKimple, K-i-m-p-1-e?Mr, Brant. Same answer. I decline to answer under the first andfifth amendments.


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COMMtTNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6657Mr. Arens. Kimple laid his liberty on the line before this com-

mittee and testified under oath that he knew you as a member of theCommunist conspiracy. Was he lying or was he telling- the trutli ?Mr, Brant. I decline to answer under the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Max Silver ?Mr. Brant. Same answer.Mr. Arens. Max Silver laid his liberty on the line and testifiedunder oath before this committee that he knew you as a member of theCommunist conspiracy and that you were a Communist. Was helying or was he telling the truth ?Mr. Brant. The same answer; first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. 1 have still another publication I want to invite to your

attention. It is the Communist Daily People's World. This Com-munist Daily People's World of February 2, 1954, has an article

:

Foreign Born Committee Sets Parley February 28The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born today announcetla conference on the campaign to repeal the Walter-McCarran law and defend

victims of the legislation.Joining in the committee in sponsorship of the conferences were anumber of people, including one Carl '"Brandt."Look at that publication and see whether or not it was erroneously

putting the finger on you as one of the sponsors of this conference.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 439," see appendix, p. 7863.)(The witness examines document.Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question because it is an

invasion of my rights under the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arjbns. Now I have still another document I want to inviteto your attention and see if you can help this Committee on Un-American Activities to develop facts on subversion. It is the Com-munist Daily People's World of Thursday, April 6, 1950. The articleto which I would invite your attention is entitled "Los Angeles Con-ference Called on Civil Rights."A number of people have joined in a call to a conference and con-vention initiated by the Civil Ilights Congress, including one Carl"Brandt."Look at that article and see if that publication accurately describesyour participation in that conference.(Document marked "Exhibit No. 440," see appendix, p. 7804.)(The witness examines document.)Mr. Brant. I decline to answer the question for the same reasons.Mr, Arens. Now w^e have still another publication. This exhibittells about a big rally to be held (April 4, 1953) under the joint aus-pices of the Civil Rights (congress and the Negro Labor Council ofTvos Angeles on behalf of the Northwest Smith Act defendants.Those were the Coninnniist traitors who were convicted.And it tells about the sponorship of this group, including one CarlBrant, United Electrical Workers, 1421.

Please look at that publication and see whether or not that CivilRights Congress was invading your rights in telling about you beinga participant in that conference.


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6658 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION ,(Document marked "Exhibit No. 441," see appendix, p. 7865.)(The witness examines document.Mr. Brant. Same answer.Mr. Arens. Now while you are under oath would you care to tellthe Committee on Un-American Activities what was behind the Eislercase? Was it all a frameup or was it something legitimate? TellUS about that, would you, please ?Mr. Brant. I don't care to discuss the Eisler case with this com-

mittee.Mr. Arens. Why?I\Ir. Brant. It is a matter of my own personal thinking as to whetherI have any thoughts about Eisler or anybody else.And under the first amendment I don't believe that it is requiredof me to reveal any thoughts that I may or may not have to this

committee.And I stand on the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committeewhat you know about the Eisler case you would be revealing facts thatcould be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?Mr. Brant. Well, I would like to tell you how and the reasons Istand on that.Mr. Arens. I wish you would, please, sir.Mr. Brant. All right. You are going to allow me, I am sure, toanswer.Mr. Arens. Sure I will.Mr. Brant. I want to read you the United States Supreme Courtdecision in the Slochower case, which stated, quoteAt the outset we must condemn the practice of imputing a sinister meaning to

the exercise of a person's constitutional right under the fifth amendment. Theright of an accused person to refuse to testify, which had been in England merelya rule of evidence, was so important to our forefathers that they raised it to thedignity of a constitutional enactment, and it has been recognized as "one of themost valuable prerogatives of the citizen." * * * We have reaffirmed our faithin this principle recently in Quinn v. United States. In XJllman v. United States,decided last month, we scored the assumption that those who claim this privilegeare either criminal or perjurers. The privilege against self-incrimination wouldbe reduced to a hollow mockery if its exercise could be taken as equivalent eitherto a confession of guilt or a conclusive presumption of perjury. As we pointedout in Ullman, a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet beinnocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.End of quote from the Slochower case by the Supreme Court.Mr. Arens. I am glad you read that.Do you have a reasonable fear of criminal prosecution if you tell

this committee what you know about the Eisler case ?Mr. Brant. I stand on the first and fifth amendments.Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, particularly in view of the status

of this record, that the witness be ordered and directed to answer thatoutstanding question.Mr. ScHERER. He has waived any right.Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question asked by counsel.Mr. Brant. In view of the Supreme Court's decision and in view of

the nature of this committee, I refuse to answer the question underthe fifth amendment of the Constitution.Mr. Arexs. I want to invite your attention to another leaflet : CivilRights Congress Division, Mobilization for Democracy.


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