· pdf filehighly confidential scott forstall, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013 800-826-0277 merrill...

In The Matter Of:

SOFTVIEW LLC

v.

APPLE INC.

___________________________________________________

FORSTALL, SCOTT, 30(b)(6) ‐ Vol. 1May 3, 2013

___________________________________________________

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

SoftView Exhibit 2014-1 Kyocera Corp. v. SoftView LLC

IPR2013-00004

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIALSCOTT FORSTALL, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013

800-826-0277 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - Los Angeles

Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE

SOFTVIEW LLC,

Plaintiff,

vs. NO. 10-389-LPS

APPLE INC.; AT&T MOBILITYLLC; DELL INC.; HTC CORP.;HTC AMERICA, INC.; HUAWEITECHNOLOGIES CO., LTD.;FUTUREWEI TECHNOLOGIES, INC.;KYOCERA CORP.; KYOCERAWIRELESS CORP.; LG ELECTRONICS,INC.; LG ELECTRONICS USA, NIC;LG ELECTRONICS USA, INC.; LGELECTRONICS MOBILECOMM U.S.A.,INC.; MOTOROLA MOBILITY LLC;SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.;SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.;SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,LLC; and SONY ERICSSON MOBILECOMMUNICATIONS (USA) INC.,

Defendants.___________________________________/

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

30(b)(6) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SCOTT FORSTALL

PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA

FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013

BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR, RPR, CCRR, CLR

CSR LICENSE NO. 9830


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1 PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA

2 FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013

3 10:14 a.m.

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8 30(b)(6) Videotaped Deposition of

9 SCOTT FORSTALL, taken at GIBSON DUNN &

10 CRUTCHER, LLP, 1881 Page Mill Road,

11 Palo Alto, California, pursuant to Notice,

12 before me, ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR,

13 RPR, CCRR, CLR ~ CSR License No. 9830.

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

2

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4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:

5 IRELL & MANELLA LLP

6 By: ALAN HEINRICH, Esq.

7 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900

8 Los Angeles, California 90067-4276

9 Phone: (310) 277-1010 Fax: (310) 203-7945

10 [email protected]

11

12

13 FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

14 GIBSON DUNN & CRUTCHER, LLP

15 By: H. MARK LYON, Esq.

16 1881 Page Mill Road

17 Palo Alto, California 94304-1211

18 Phone: (650) 849-5300 Fax: (650) 849-5333

19 [email protected]

20

21 ALSO PRESENT: Patricia Guerrero, Videographer

22 Andy Song, Apple Inc.

23 ---oOo---

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1 I N D E X

2 DEPOSITION OF SCOTT FORSTALL

3

4 EXAMINATION PAGE

5 MR. HEINRICH 7, 104

6 MR. LYON 96

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8 E X H I B I T S

9 EXHIBIT PAGE

10 Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent No. 7,864,163 B2; 9

11 51 pgs.

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20 Exhibit 5 Pad++: A Zoomable Graphical 81

21 Interface System, Bates

22 Kyocera PX 1006_88 - '89;

23 2 pgs.

24 Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent 7,461,353 B2; 89

25 50 pgs.

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1 E X H I B I T S (Continued.)

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3 EXHIBIT PAGE

4 Exhibit 7 Letter, Subject: Re: Patent, 89

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1 08:35 PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA

2 08:36 FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2013

3 08:36 10:14 A.M.

4 08:36

5 08:36

6 08:36

7 10:13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Volume I,

8 10:13Videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Scott Forstall.

9 10:13 In the matter of SoftView LLC versus Apple

10 10:13Inc., et al. In the U.S. District Court, District of

11 10:13Delaware. The case number is 10-389-LPS.

12 10:13 Today's date is May 3rd, 2013. The time on

13 10:13the video monitor is 10:14.

14 10:13 The videographer today is Patricia Guerrero,

15 10:13a notary public, employed by Merrill Court Reporting,

16 10:14San Francisco.

17 10:14 This video deposition is taking place at the

18 10:14Law Offices of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, 1881 Page Mill

19 10:14Road, Palo Alto, California.

20 10:14 Counsel, please voice identify yourselves and

21 10:14state whom you represent.

22 10:14 MR. HEINRICH: Alan Heinrich of Irell &

23 10:14Manella on behalf of SoftView.

24 10:14 MR. LYON: Mark Lyon of Gibson, Dunn &

25 10:14Crutcher on behalf of defendant Apple. With me is


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1 10:14Andrew Song, also of Apple.

2 10:14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.

3 10:14 The court reporter today is Andrea Ignacio of

4 Merrill Court Reporting.

5 Would the court reporter please swear in the

6 witness.

7

8 SCOTT FORSTALL,

9 having been sworn as a witness

10 by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,

11 testified as follows:

12

13 10:14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Please begin.

14 10:14

15 10:14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HEINRICH

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6 10:25 Q You worked closely with Steve Jobs during the

7 10:26development of the iPhone; correct?

8 10:26 A Correct.

9 10:26 Q And you worked closely with Steve Jobs during

10 10:26the development of the user interface specifically for

11 10:26the iPhone; correct?

12 10:26 A Yes.

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12 10:27 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Well, after the release of

13 10:27the iPhone, Apple knew from its users that browsing

14 10:27the web is, in fact, one of the most popular things

15 10:27that users do with their iPhones; correct?

16 10:28 A Yes, it is one of the more popular features

17 10:28used on the iPhone.

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23 10:39

24 10:39 Q What in particular did you seriously dislike

25 10:39about your maligned flip phone?

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1 10:39 A The user interface was absolutely terrible.

2 10:39It was confusing to do anything other than make a

3 10:39simple phone call by dialing a number. It was also

4 10:39limited. You had a powerful computing device in your

5 10:40pocket, and yet the available functionality was

6 10:40pathetically small.

7 10:40 Q Did your flip phone allow you to browse the

8 10:40Internet?

9 10:40 A I believe some of the phones had the ability

10 10:40to browse what was called WAP. WAP was a baby version

11 10:40of the Internet. It was a different format than HTML,

12 10:40which is the format standardly used to build web

13 10:40pages.

14 10:40 Q What do you mean by "baby version of the

15 10:41Internet"?

16 10:41 A You couldn't go to every web page you wanted

17 10:41to go to. A website developer would be forced to

18 10:41create a completely separate website just for a WAP

19 10:41browser. And even when they did create it, they may

20 10:41limit some of the functionality that you could get at.

21 10:41 Q What are some examples of the limits on

22 10:41functionality that would be imposed in a WAP website?

23 10:41 A Sometimes they limited the visuals, not as

24 10:41many images. Sometimes there was whole sections of

25 10:41the website that would be missing. So you may have a


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1 10:41news website, and they choose to only put up the

2 10:41headlines or the front page stories, but all of the

3 10:41sport stories don't even appear on the WAP site.

4 10:42 Q Can you think of some other examples?

5 10:42 A I don't believe video was supported in WAP.

6 10:42It was just a completely different representation,

7 10:42mainly text-based.

8 10:42 Q Was it a dumbed-down web?

9 10:42 A I would be comfortable describing it as a

10 10:42dumbed-down web.

11 10:42 Q And did that dumbing-down affect the user's

12 10:42Internet experience?

13 10:42 A Yes.

14 10:42 Q In not-so-positive ways?

15 10:42 A Yes.

16 10:42 Q Could users view graphics on WAP websites?

17 10:42 A I don't remember if there was a way for an

18 10:43image to be viewed or not. There may have been, but I

19 10:43don't have a recollection of that specifically.

20 10:43 Q What about tabular layouts? Did WAP support

21 10:43tabular layouts?

22 10:43 MR. LYON: Objection; vague.

23 10:43 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

24 10:43 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Was WAP one of the things

25 10:43that you seriously disliked about your circa 2003/2004


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1 10:43flip phone?

2 10:43 A Yes.

3 10:43 Q Did any of your colleagues have BlackBerrys

4 10:43at this time?

5 10:43 A I don't remember people at Apple carrying

6 10:44BlackBerrys.

7 10:44 Q But you and Steve and the others in the

8 10:44group, you mentioned earlier, were certainly aware of

9 10:44BlackBerrys; correct?

10 10:44 A Yes. I believe you probably carried one.

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9 10:46 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And you obviously wanted

10 10:46to improve on that; correct?

11 10:46 A We wanted to have the best mobile web

12 10:46browsing experience ever on the iPhone.

13 10:46 Q And that would include a full-feature

14 10:46Internet web browser?


16 10:46 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how you define

17 10:46"full-feature Internet browser."

18 10:46 We wanted to have a phenomenal web browsing

19 10:46experience on our mobile devices.

20 10:46 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And would that involve

21 10:46bringing the entire Internet to the iPhone user?

22 10:47 MR. LYON: Same objections.

23 10:47 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how you define

24 10:47"the entire Internet."

25 10:47 We wanted to bring as much of the Internet as

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1 10:47possible that was appropriate in a way that felt

2 10:47natural and easy to use.

3 10:47 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Do you recall testifying

4 10:47in the Samsung case that one of your goals for the

5 10:47iPhone project was to give people the entire web, the

6 10:47entire Internet experience, on a device as small as

7 10:47the iPhone?

8 10:47 A I don't remember the specific words I used.

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1 10:49

2 10:49 Q Is it true that you and the Apple team wanted

3 10:49to solve the problem of giving people the entire real

4 10:49Internet on a device the size and form factor of the

5 10:49iPhone?

6 10:49 A We wanted to give people the -- a tremendous

7 10:49comprehensive Internet experience on our mobile

8 10:49devices.

9 10:49 Q Sir, you've testified that you and your team

10 10:49wanted to solve the problem of giving people the

11 10:49entire real Internet on the iPhone device; correct?

12 10:49 A You'd have to show me the specific words of

13 10:49the testimony, but I believe that is accurate --

14 10:49 Q Okay.

15 10:49 A -- as far as what I -- what the team and I

16 10:49set out to do.

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1 10:52

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3 10:52 Q So on page 749 here of your trial testimony

4 10:52to the jury in the Apple/Samsung case, you state --

5 10:52 A At what line?

6 10:52 Q Line 11:

7 10:52 "One other one was we wanted to give people

8 10:52the entire web, the entire Internet experience. And

9 10:52the Internet is designed for a much larger screen.

10 10:52When a web developer is building a site for the

11 10:52Internet, they design it expecting a window like just

12 10:52on a computer. And yet we have this very, you know,

13 10:53compared to that, small window, small screen, into

14 10:53that web world. So we wanted to solve the problem of

15 10:53giving people the entire real Internet on this

16 10:53device."

17 10:53 That was your testimony to the jury?

18 10:53 A Yes.

19 10:53 Q And you were referring to you -- your work

20 10:53and the work of your team on the Apple iPhone;

21 10:53correct?

22 10:53 A Correct.

23 10:53 Q And that was, in fact, truthful testimony?

24 10:53 A Yes.

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23 10:55 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Do you recall any other

24 10:55web browsers for phones or other mobile devices that

25 10:55you looked at as you were starting the iPhone project?

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1 10:55 A I don't.

2 10:55 It wasn't generally the way that we operated.

3 10:55We decided we were going to build a phone. We had

4 10:55built Safari. We knew the Internet was an important

5 10:55feature on a desktop. We decided we wanted it to be

6 10:55an important useful feature on our mobile devices. So

7 10:55we set about to build the best version of that we

8 10:55could. And in many ways it's irrelevant what anyone

9 10:55else had done or was doing. We wanted to do the best.

10 10:55 Q But you were aware that there were a lot of

11 10:55drawbacks of web browsing on the existing devices of

12 10:56the day; right?

13 10:56 A The devices we were using had drawbacks.

14 10:56 Q And, in fact, you weren't aware of any phones

15 10:56that could bring the entire web Internet experience to

16 10:56the user; right?

17 10:56 A Correct.

18 10:56 Q And you weren't aware of any other mobile

19 10:56device that could bring the entire web experience to

20 10:56the user; correct?


22 10:56 THE WITNESS: It depends on how you're

23 10:56defining "mobile device." Some people divine --

24 10:56define a laptop as a mobile device. I think they did

25 10:56a very standup job.


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1 10:56 MR. HEINRICH: Q. How -- how about a

2 10:56handheld mobile device? You weren't aware of any

3 10:56other handheld mobile device that could bring the

4 10:56entire web to the user at that time; correct?


6 10:56 THE WITNESS: I don't remember a phone that

7 10:57brought a great web experience to the user, nor do I

8 10:57recall other small portable mobile devices that

9 10:57weren't laptops that did the same.

10 10:57 MR. HEINRICH: Okay. Thanks.

11 10:57 Q So going back to WAP, just a few more

12 10:57questions on that.

13 10:57 Now, WAP content wasn't displayed in its

14 10:57original HTML format because it wasn't HTML; right?

15 10:57 A WAP was not HTML. I think it stood for web

16 10:58access protocol [sic].

17 10:58 Q Or wireless access?

18 10:58 A Or wireless access -- that might be right --

19 10:58wireless access protocol [sic].

20 10:58 Q Using a WAP browser, could a user zoom in on

21 10:58content?

22 10:58 A I don't believe that WAP defined the user

23 10:58interface. That means an implementation of a WAP

24 10:58browser could have functionality to increase the font

25 10:58size, effectively zoom in.


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1 10:58 Q My question is whether you were aware of any

2 10:58WAP browsers that had that zooming functionality at

3 10:58the time?

4 10:58 A I can't recall a WAP browser that required

5 10:59horizontal scrolling.

6 10:59 If you zoom in to something, there are a few

7 10:59ways of doing it. One would be to increase the font

8 10:59size, and I would expect that some implementations of

9 10:59WAP browsers at the time had the ability to set the

10 10:59font size. But I believe they would probably rewrap

11 10:59at that point, as opposed to extend beyond the bounds

12 10:59of the device, thus requiring the user to horizontally

13 10:59scroll to read the text.

14 10:59 Q Do you recall -- do you have an actual

15 10:59recollection of a WAP browser that zoomed even by

16 10:59increasing the font size?

17 10:59 A I don't.

18 10:59

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25 11:00 Q Did you ever hear of a phone called the

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1 11:00Motorola ROKR, R-O-K-R?

2 11:00 A Yes. I believe it was referred to as the

3 11:00ROKR.

4 11:00 Q ROKR.

5 11:00 A I don't think I ever heard it called the

6 11:00ROKR.

7 11:00 Q Actually, that would make more sense.

8 11:00 So what do you know about the Motorola ROKR,

9 11:00aside from the correct -- correct pronunciation?

10 11:01 A Motorola and Apple discussed bringing music

11 11:01to cell phones, and the ROKR was a joint project

12 11:01attempt to do so.

13 11:01 Q And what time period was that project active?

14 11:01 A I'm not sure specifically. I would guess

15 11:012004, maybe.

16 11:01 Q Did the ROKR have the capability of browsing

17 11:01the Internet?

18 11:01 A I don't recall.

19 11:01 Q Other than what we've already discussed, do

20 11:01you recall any other phones of this time period in

21 11:022004 that had some web browsing capabilities?

22 11:02 A Not off the top of my head.

23 11:02

24 11:02

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16 11:08 Q Did the original iPhone have conference call

17 11:08capability?

18 11:08 A It did.

19 11:08 Q I never used it.

20 11:08 A While you were on a phone call, that six-up

21 11:08UI has a button which says "merge calls" and "make

22 11:08another call." So if you had ever chosen to, if you

23 11:09look at it, it was right there in the on call UI;

24 11:09always present.

25 11:09 Q Interesting.

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1 11:09 A In fact, I would use that instead of my

2 11:09office phone because I couldn't figure out how to make

3 11:09a conference call. And my office phone, without my

4 11:09assistant, could be on my iPhone.

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21 11:31 MR. HEINRICH: Q. So what challenges did you

22 11:31face in designing a web browser that could bring the

23 11:31entire real Internet to a mobile phone?

24 11:31 A The mobile phone is relatively small compared

25 11:31to a computer. And at the time when someone was

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1 11:31designing a website, web pages on that website, they

2 11:31generally thought about the size someone would view

3 11:32that website on a computer. They weren't considering

4 11:32what it would look like, how it would behave on a

5 11:32small device, except for the people who were creating

6 11:32these small WAP sites. But for the main homepage of

7 11:32the New York Times, of the Yahoo! home site, it was

8 11:32designed for a computer.

9 11:32 And so one challenge had to do with content

10 11:32that was created for a window size significantly

11 11:32different from a mobile phone.

12 11:32 A second challenge we faced was designing a

13 11:32touch interface. We were designing the iPhone to work

14 11:32based on your finger touching, and that's not what the

15 11:33Internet in general had been designed around. It was

16 11:33designed around a mouse and physical keyboard

17 11:33paradigm. And so we had to consider the challenges

18 11:33for designing a complete interface for a mobile device

19 11:33to see the web.

20 11:33 There were challenges related to the

21 11:33performance of the processor on a mobile device. The

22 11:33processor was considerably slower than a modern

23 11:33computer at the time.

24 11:34 The speed of the data connection on a mobile

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1 11:34computer, especially when the computer was plugged

2 11:34into the Internet. But even over wireless networks

3 11:34like Wi-Fi, a Wi-Fi network speed would surpass that

4 11:34of the original iPhone.

5 11:34 The amount of memory we had in the iPhone was

6 11:34less than the amount of memory in a computer. So we

7 11:34had to deal with performance issues related to memory

8 11:34limitations.

9 11:35 There are probably others that I'm not

10 11:35thinking of right at this second.

11 11:35 Q So in light of these and potentially other

12 11:35challenges, is it fair to say you couldn't just take a

13 11:35web browsing solution for a desktop and just port it

14 11:35to a mobile phone?

15 11:35 A Correct.

16 11:35 Q A lot of changes would be -- would need to be

17 11:35made and a lot of challenges would be overcome;

18 11:35correct?

19 11:35 A We hoped to overcome many of the challenges,

20 11:35yes.

21 11:35 Q So the first challenge you mentioned had to

22 11:35do with the web content that was created for a window

23 11:35size significantly different for a mobile phone.

24 11:35 How did you address that challenge?

25 11:36 A We used a number of techniques.


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1 11:36 One technique, which is captured in part in

2 11:36the '163 patent, was the ability for a user to

3 11:36double-tap on a logical or semantic region of a web

4 11:36page, say, a story, a caption, an image, a video or

5 11:36other logical or semantic regions, and have the iPhone

6 11:36determine what region the user -- in what region the

7 11:36user was expressing interest, and then zoom and

8 11:36substantially center that semantic region for the user

9 11:36to read or look at or watch.

10 11:37 Q So let's take an example where a user is

11 11:37viewing the New York Times website on an iPhone.

12 11:37 The solution that's described in your

13 11:37'163 patent covers, for example, the situation where a

14 11:37user taps on a column that appears in the Times'

15 11:37website, and the iPhone browser zooms into that column

16 11:37so that it fills the screen; correct?

17 11:37 MR. LYON: Objection; vague and to the extent

18 11:37it calls for a legal conclusion.

19 11:38 THE WITNESS: If a user is viewing a New York

20 11:38Times website on the iPhone, and they see a story, and

21 11:38they'd like to read that story, and that story may

22 11:38appear in a box somewhere on that page, the

23 11:38'163 patent covers the concept of sort of

24 11:38double-tapping on that story and having it zoom in,

25 11:38substantially center it, and then double-tap and zoom


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1 11:38between other parts of that story or other stories.

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2 11:42 THE WITNESS: I view the functionality of

3 11:42enabling a user to double-tap and zoom in and move

4 11:42between different regions on a web page to be very

5 11:42important, yes.

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15 11:44 MR. HEINRICH: Q. And one of the examples

16 11:44that you gave in your testimony in the Apple v.

17 11:45Samsung case was the example of a user who is tapping

18 11:45on a column in a web page; correct?

19 11:45 A I believe so.

20 11:45 Q And then having that column zoomed in on to

21 11:45fill the page, that's an important feature of the

22 11:45iPhone's browser interface; correct?

23 11:45 MR. LYON: Objection; vague and to the extent

24 11:45it mischaracterizes testimony.

25 11:45 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question.

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1 11:45I --

2 11:45 MR. HEINRICH: Sure.

3 11:45 Q And then having that column zoomed in to fill

4 11:45the page, that's an important feature of the iPhone's

5 11:45browser interface; correct?

6 11:45 MR. LYON: Same objection.

7 11:45 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean by

8 11:45"fill the page," to have a story --

9 11:45 MR. HEINRICH: I'm sorry.

10 11:45 THE WITNESS: -- or a semantic region to

11 11:46substantially fill the screen in the device.

12 11:46 MR. HEINRICH: Yeah. I'm sorry. I misspoke.

13 11:46I'm trying to just, you know, refer to your testimony

14 11:46here.

15 11:46 Q So you agree that tapping on a logical region

16 11:46of a web page, such as a column, the example that you

17 11:46gave in your prior testimony, and having that column

18 11:46zoomed in on to fill the screen, you regard that as an

19 11:46important feature of the iPhone's browser interface;

20 11:46correct?


22 11:46 THE WITNESS: I think being able to tap on a

23 11:46logical region, say, a story or a column of a story as

24 11:46a logical region, and enabling that to zoom in and

25 11:46substantially fill the screen is a useful feature,


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6 11:52 MR. HEINRICH: Q. How else did you address

7 11:52the challenge that had to do with browsing on the

8 11:52iPhone content that was created for a window

9 11:52significantly larger than the iPhone display?

10 11:52 A When you have content that's created for a

11 11:52larger window than fits on the display, you can shrink

12 11:52down that window to fit the entire content on the

13 11:52phone. That causes all the fonts to be really, really

14 11:53small.

15 11:53 Because of this, we chose to increase the

16 11:53font size in some places so that when zoomed in to fit

17 11:53the screen or even when zoomed out at times, the font

18 11:53would be legible and readable.

19 11:53 This was even if that new font size may

20 11:53violate the request of the website developer for a

21 11:53specific font size, because our thought was, they

22 11:53didn't design that website for this device, and so we

23 11:53should help the website operate correctly for our

24 11:53users on the device.

25 11:53

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8 11:54 Q Did you also implement panning as a way to

9 11:54address the small screen size of the iPhone?


11 11:54 THE WITNESS: The iPhone was based on a touch

12 11:55screen -- a capacitive touch screen. And as such,

13 11:55throughout the iPhone we used the conceit that you

14 11:55could put your finger on the screen and move it along,

15 11:55and you would translate the content underneath it.

16 11:55One of the places we used that was in the web browser

17 11:55itself.

18 11:55 We also used the concept of a two-finger

19 11:55pinch or de-pinch, which allowed you to place two

20 11:55fingers on the screen, and when you pinched inward, it

21 11:55would make the content smaller, a web page smaller, to

22 11:55see more content. When you moved your fingers farther

23 11:55away from each other, it would grow the size of the

24 11:55content.

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2 12:10 Q And it was very, very difficult to build a

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1 13:47 So why couldn't you simply look to desktop

2 13:47user interfaces to use for the iPhone?

3 13:47 MR. LYON: Objection; asked and answered.

4 13:47 THE WITNESS: As I stated earlier, there's

5 13:47many different challenges we had with the iPhone which

6 13:47are different from a desktop. They revolve around a

7 13:47number of different features, including the size of

8 13:47the screen, the computing power, the touch screen

9 13:48display on the iPhone versus a non-touch screen

10 13:48display on a computer.

11 13:48 MR. HEINRICH: Okay. I'm going to mark as

12 13:48Exhibit 5 an article entitled "Pad++: A Zoomable

13 13:48Graphical Interface System."

14 13:48 (Document marked Forstall Exhibit 5

15 13:48 for identification.)

16 13:48 MR. HEINRICH: Apologies for the lack of a

17 13:48staple there.

18 13:48 MR. LYON: Thank you.

19 13:48

20 13:48

21 13:48

22 13:48 Q Do you see the -- one of the authors of this

23 13:48article is a gentleman named Benjamin B. Bederson;

24 13:49right?

25 13:49 A I see that.

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8 13:49 Q Now, if you'd turn to the second page of this

9 13:49article.

10 13:49 At the top of the page there is Figure 1,

11 13:49which is described as a screen dump showing a series

12 13:49of World Wide -- World -- World Wide Web homepages

13 13:49loaded into Pad++; do you see that?

14 13:49 A I do.

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4 13:50 Q Okay. Well, you can put that away.

5 13:51 So when a -- an iPhone user double-taps on an

6 13:51item on a web page, such as a column, what is the

7 13:52algorithm that the iPhone uses to detect which item in

8 13:52the web page the user intended to target?

9 13:52 A I didn't implement the algorithm myself. I

10 13:52can tell you what the goals of the algorithm are, but

11 13:52I can't tell you specifically what the algorithm is

12 13:52and how it's -- precisely it works.

13 13:52 Q Okay.

14 13:52 A So the goal of it is to determine the

15 13:52semantics or logical box that the user cares to zoom

16 13:52and -- and pay attention to. The challenge is with

17 13:52HTML, there are many, many different boxes in there.

18 13:52 A -- an article with a hyperlink in the

19 13:52middle of it actually embeds a box for that hyperlink.

20 13:53But when the user double-taps on that article to read

21 13:53it, it's unlikely they mean to zoom all the way into

22 13:53that single hyperlink within the article. It's more

23 13:53likely they would like to read the article itself or a

24 13:53single column of a multicolumn article.

25 13:53 Likewise, you might have a story, and the

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1 13:53first letter of the story for, say, a news story might

2 13:53be much larger, like the New York Times has done in

3 13:53the past. It's unlikely, again, that the user is

4 13:53double-tapping to see a large T. They likely want to

5 13:53zoom in to read the article itself.

6 13:53 So the goal of the algorithm is to determine

7 13:53which of these logical boxes makes sense and choose

8 13:53that one, and then zoom it in and substantially center

9 13:53it for the user to read.

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17 14:00 Q And -- and this double-tap-to-zoom feature

18 14:00enabled you personally to browse the web much more

19 14:00quickly and fluidly; correct?


21 14:00 THE WITNESS: The invention of being able to

22 14:00double-tap on a logical region, have that logical

23 14:00region determined by the iPhone, and then have that

24 14:00zoom substantially centered, being able to double-tap

25 14:00on others and navigate around a web page, helped my

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1 14:00experience on browsing the web on the iPhone.

2 14:01 MR. HEINRICH: Q. Would you say dramatically

3 14:01changed how you use the web on the iPhone?

4 14:01 A I would add "dramatically" into my last

5 14:01description.

6 14:01 Q Okay. Was that feature difficult to

7 14:01implement?

8 14:01 A I believe it was pretty difficult.

9 14:01 Q And at one point did you think it may not

10 14:01even be possible to do it?

11 14:01 A We had an outstanding team on the iPhone, and

12 14:01there were a few things that they couldn't do once we

13 14:01knew what we wanted to accomplish. This I certainly

14 14:01thought was a challenge, especially determining the

15 14:01right regions to select when the user tapped on a

16 14:01given area of a web page. I personally had faith they

17 14:02could figure it out, but it wasn't a slam dunk at all.

18 14:02 Q Did you think it was super hard, maybe not

19 14:02possible, to come up with this feature?

20 14:02 MR. LYON: Objection; vague; asked and

21 14:02answered.

22 14:02 THE WITNESS: I thought it was challenging to

23 14:02implement. If you've ever edited HTML, if you've

24 14:02taken a web page and you've e-mailed it to someone,

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4 14:02But I had an abundance of faith in my team to

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1 14:42 The time is 2:42.

2 14:42 (WHEREUPON, the deposition ended

3 14:42 at 2:42 p.m.)

4 ---oOo---

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1 J U R A T

2

3

4

5 I, SCOTT FORSTALL, do hereby certify under

6 penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing

7 transcript of my deposition taken on May 3,

8 2013; that I have made such corrections as appear

9 noted herein in ink, initialed by me; that my

10 testimony as contained herein, as corrected, is

11 true and correct.

12

13 DATED this ____ day of _____________, 2013,

14 at _____________________________, California.

15

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20 __________________________________

21 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS

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· pdf filehighly confidential scott forstall, 30(b)(6) - 5/3/2013 800-826-0277 merrill...

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