decision time_ how subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 november 2011 - new...
TRANSCRIPT
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 121
SUBSCRIBE amp SAVE 20 raquo
MANAGE MY ACCOUNT raquo
GIVE A GIFT raquo
Science in Society
search New Scientist Go
Home News In-Depth Articles Opinion CultureLab Galleries Topic Guides Last Word Subscribe Look for Science Jobs
SPACE TECH ENVIRONMENT HEALTH LIFE PHYSICSampM ATH SCIENCE IN SOCIETY Cookies amp Privacy
Struggling to make your mind up Interpret your gut instincts to help
you make the right choice
DECISION-MAKING was supposed to have been cracked by science
long ago It started in 1654 with an exchange of letters between twoeminent French mathematicians Blaise Pascal and Pierre Fermat
Their insights into games of chance formed the foundation of
probability theory And in the 20th century the ideas were developed
into decision theory an elegant formulation beloved of economists and
social scientists today Decision theory sees humans as rational
optimisers Given a choice we weigh up each option considering its
value and probability and then choose the one with the highest
expected utility
Tweet 19 1
66
This weeks issue
Subscribe
31 August 2013
My New Scientist
Home | Science in Society | Life | Physics amp Math | In-Depth Articles
Decision time How subtle f orces shape your choices
14 November 2011 by Kate DouglasMagazine issue 2838 Subscribe and save
Dating
Me gusta 50
Log out My New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 221
With your experience of making decisions you have probably noticed
some flaws here Theres the risible idea that humans are rational and
the dubious notion that we would be capable of the on-the-hoof
calculations of probability even if we could access all the necessary
information Decision theory explains how we would make choices if we
were logical computers or all-knowing beings But were not We are
just rather clever apes with a brain shaped by natural selection to see
us through this messy world
Decision researchers had largely ignored this inconvenient reality
occasionally patching up their theory when experiments revealed
exceptions to their rules But that make-do-and-mend approach may
soon change Earlier this year an independent institute called the
Ernst Struumlngmann Forum assembled a group of big-thinking scientists
in Frankfurt Germany to consider whether we should abandon the old
idealistic decision theory and start afresh with a new realistic one
based on evolutionary principles The week-long workshop provided a
fascinating exploration of the forces that actually shape our decisions
innate biases emotions expectations misconceptions conformity and
other all-too-human factors While our decision-making may seeminconsistent or occasionally downright perverse the truly intriguing
thing is just how often these seemingly irrational forces help us make
the right choice
We must start by acknowledging that many of our choices are not
consciously calculated Each day we may face between 2500 and
10000 decisions ranging from minor concerns about what brand of
coffee to drink to the question of who we should marry and many of
these are made in the uncharted depths of the subconscious mind
Indeed Ap Dijksterhuis at the Radboud University Nijmegen in the
Netherlands and colleagues have found that our subconscious thinkingis particularly astute when we are faced with difficult choices such as
which house to buy or deciding between two cars with many different
features (Science vol 311 p 1005)
What drives these gut feelings Being inaccessible to conscious
examination the processes are particularly difficult to fathom One idea
is that they are based on heuristics - mental rules of thumb which
applied in appropriate situations allow us to make fast decisions with
Interpret your gut instincts to help you make theright choice (Image Kotryna Zukauskaite)
1 more image
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 321
minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will
direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little
information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to
pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when
delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests
Evolutions satnav
Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-
wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder
they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington
has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a
romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The
recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better
guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt
whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they
argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor
cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to
select the correct heuristic to use
Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious
decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of
rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us
towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to
punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain
social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from
Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the
workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic
which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun
people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead
to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle
University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really
was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors
would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes
on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review
vol 10 p 47)
Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters
More Latest news
Race against time to investigate
Syria chemical attack
1413 22 August 2013
UN inspectors are inSyria but theyre stillwaiting for permission toexamine the site of
yesterdays alleged chemical attack ndash andime is running out
Browser to give you a more
politically balanced life
1750 19 August 2013
The Balancer is a widgetfor Googles Chromebrowser that keeps trackof the political leanings
of your surfing history ndash and suggests ways
o even things out
States lead the US toward a new
era in its war on drugs
2242 16 August 2013
A new system of evidence-basedpunishment for drugscrimes is paying
dividends in a country plagued byoverpopulated prisons
Play with antimatter from the
comfort of your home
1115 13 August 2013
Citizen science hascome to particle physicswith an experiment atCERN that asks
members of the public to help figure outwhether antimatter falls up
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 421
This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the
most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to
compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify
Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank
alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For
example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of
coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and
only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called
decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also
lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank
alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive
Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy
friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the
top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent
you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by
sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate
threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more
likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger
Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford
takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the
information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows
us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik
believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement
learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has
worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are
also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst
and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see
The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent
inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences
change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We
may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory
but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological
rationality
Most read Most commented
see all related stories
Whales tan too basking in the big
blue
Steep rise in drug harm ndash opioidsthe most deadly
Walking shark moves with ping-
pong paddle fins
Why your brain may work like a
dictionary
Poverty can sap peoples ability to
think clearly
FOLLOW US
Get editors picks in your social
streams
LATEST JOBS
Paramount Recruitment Editor
Copy Editor - Oxfordshire
Northpoint Recruitment Technical
Quality Assurance Manager
Life Technologies Supervisor
QAQC
Life Technologies Recruiter
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 521
Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew
choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the
University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that
we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise
option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to
know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising
who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of
Technology who has found that even young children assess the
expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p
40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make
wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the
alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the
immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by
manipulative leaders
Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that
flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a
rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up
precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of
apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing
on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation
An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your
reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In
purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway
because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team
players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch
And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision
theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of
our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)
So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in
ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should
become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually
make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are
not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone
searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the
Life Technologies Field Services
Engineer II
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 221
With your experience of making decisions you have probably noticed
some flaws here Theres the risible idea that humans are rational and
the dubious notion that we would be capable of the on-the-hoof
calculations of probability even if we could access all the necessary
information Decision theory explains how we would make choices if we
were logical computers or all-knowing beings But were not We are
just rather clever apes with a brain shaped by natural selection to see
us through this messy world
Decision researchers had largely ignored this inconvenient reality
occasionally patching up their theory when experiments revealed
exceptions to their rules But that make-do-and-mend approach may
soon change Earlier this year an independent institute called the
Ernst Struumlngmann Forum assembled a group of big-thinking scientists
in Frankfurt Germany to consider whether we should abandon the old
idealistic decision theory and start afresh with a new realistic one
based on evolutionary principles The week-long workshop provided a
fascinating exploration of the forces that actually shape our decisions
innate biases emotions expectations misconceptions conformity and
other all-too-human factors While our decision-making may seeminconsistent or occasionally downright perverse the truly intriguing
thing is just how often these seemingly irrational forces help us make
the right choice
We must start by acknowledging that many of our choices are not
consciously calculated Each day we may face between 2500 and
10000 decisions ranging from minor concerns about what brand of
coffee to drink to the question of who we should marry and many of
these are made in the uncharted depths of the subconscious mind
Indeed Ap Dijksterhuis at the Radboud University Nijmegen in the
Netherlands and colleagues have found that our subconscious thinkingis particularly astute when we are faced with difficult choices such as
which house to buy or deciding between two cars with many different
features (Science vol 311 p 1005)
What drives these gut feelings Being inaccessible to conscious
examination the processes are particularly difficult to fathom One idea
is that they are based on heuristics - mental rules of thumb which
applied in appropriate situations allow us to make fast decisions with
Interpret your gut instincts to help you make theright choice (Image Kotryna Zukauskaite)
1 more image
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 321
minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will
direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little
information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to
pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when
delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests
Evolutions satnav
Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-
wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder
they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington
has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a
romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The
recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better
guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt
whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they
argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor
cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to
select the correct heuristic to use
Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious
decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of
rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us
towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to
punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain
social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from
Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the
workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic
which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun
people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead
to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle
University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really
was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors
would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes
on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review
vol 10 p 47)
Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters
More Latest news
Race against time to investigate
Syria chemical attack
1413 22 August 2013
UN inspectors are inSyria but theyre stillwaiting for permission toexamine the site of
yesterdays alleged chemical attack ndash andime is running out
Browser to give you a more
politically balanced life
1750 19 August 2013
The Balancer is a widgetfor Googles Chromebrowser that keeps trackof the political leanings
of your surfing history ndash and suggests ways
o even things out
States lead the US toward a new
era in its war on drugs
2242 16 August 2013
A new system of evidence-basedpunishment for drugscrimes is paying
dividends in a country plagued byoverpopulated prisons
Play with antimatter from the
comfort of your home
1115 13 August 2013
Citizen science hascome to particle physicswith an experiment atCERN that asks
members of the public to help figure outwhether antimatter falls up
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 421
This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the
most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to
compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify
Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank
alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For
example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of
coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and
only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called
decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also
lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank
alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive
Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy
friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the
top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent
you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by
sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate
threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more
likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger
Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford
takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the
information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows
us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik
believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement
learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has
worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are
also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst
and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see
The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent
inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences
change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We
may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory
but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological
rationality
Most read Most commented
see all related stories
Whales tan too basking in the big
blue
Steep rise in drug harm ndash opioidsthe most deadly
Walking shark moves with ping-
pong paddle fins
Why your brain may work like a
dictionary
Poverty can sap peoples ability to
think clearly
FOLLOW US
Get editors picks in your social
streams
LATEST JOBS
Paramount Recruitment Editor
Copy Editor - Oxfordshire
Northpoint Recruitment Technical
Quality Assurance Manager
Life Technologies Supervisor
QAQC
Life Technologies Recruiter
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 521
Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew
choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the
University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that
we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise
option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to
know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising
who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of
Technology who has found that even young children assess the
expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p
40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make
wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the
alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the
immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by
manipulative leaders
Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that
flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a
rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up
precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of
apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing
on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation
An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your
reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In
purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway
because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team
players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch
And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision
theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of
our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)
So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in
ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should
become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually
make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are
not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone
searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the
Life Technologies Field Services
Engineer II
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 321
minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will
direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little
information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to
pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when
delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests
Evolutions satnav
Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-
wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder
they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington
has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a
romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The
recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better
guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt
whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they
argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor
cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to
select the correct heuristic to use
Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious
decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of
rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us
towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to
punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain
social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from
Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the
workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic
which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun
people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead
to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle
University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really
was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors
would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes
on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review
vol 10 p 47)
Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters
More Latest news
Race against time to investigate
Syria chemical attack
1413 22 August 2013
UN inspectors are inSyria but theyre stillwaiting for permission toexamine the site of
yesterdays alleged chemical attack ndash andime is running out
Browser to give you a more
politically balanced life
1750 19 August 2013
The Balancer is a widgetfor Googles Chromebrowser that keeps trackof the political leanings
of your surfing history ndash and suggests ways
o even things out
States lead the US toward a new
era in its war on drugs
2242 16 August 2013
A new system of evidence-basedpunishment for drugscrimes is paying
dividends in a country plagued byoverpopulated prisons
Play with antimatter from the
comfort of your home
1115 13 August 2013
Citizen science hascome to particle physicswith an experiment atCERN that asks
members of the public to help figure outwhether antimatter falls up
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 421
This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the
most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to
compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify
Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank
alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For
example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of
coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and
only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called
decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also
lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank
alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive
Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy
friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the
top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent
you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by
sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate
threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more
likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger
Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford
takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the
information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows
us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik
believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement
learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has
worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are
also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst
and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see
The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent
inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences
change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We
may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory
but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological
rationality
Most read Most commented
see all related stories
Whales tan too basking in the big
blue
Steep rise in drug harm ndash opioidsthe most deadly
Walking shark moves with ping-
pong paddle fins
Why your brain may work like a
dictionary
Poverty can sap peoples ability to
think clearly
FOLLOW US
Get editors picks in your social
streams
LATEST JOBS
Paramount Recruitment Editor
Copy Editor - Oxfordshire
Northpoint Recruitment Technical
Quality Assurance Manager
Life Technologies Supervisor
QAQC
Life Technologies Recruiter
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 521
Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew
choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the
University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that
we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise
option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to
know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising
who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of
Technology who has found that even young children assess the
expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p
40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make
wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the
alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the
immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by
manipulative leaders
Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that
flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a
rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up
precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of
apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing
on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation
An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your
reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In
purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway
because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team
players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch
And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision
theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of
our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)
So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in
ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should
become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually
make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are
not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone
searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the
Life Technologies Field Services
Engineer II
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 421
This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the
most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to
compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify
Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank
alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For
example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of
coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and
only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called
decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also
lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank
alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive
Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy
friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the
top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent
you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by
sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate
threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more
likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger
Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford
takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the
information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows
us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik
believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement
learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has
worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are
also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst
and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see
The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent
inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences
change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We
may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory
but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological
rationality
Most read Most commented
see all related stories
Whales tan too basking in the big
blue
Steep rise in drug harm ndash opioidsthe most deadly
Walking shark moves with ping-
pong paddle fins
Why your brain may work like a
dictionary
Poverty can sap peoples ability to
think clearly
FOLLOW US
Get editors picks in your social
streams
LATEST JOBS
Paramount Recruitment Editor
Copy Editor - Oxfordshire
Northpoint Recruitment Technical
Quality Assurance Manager
Life Technologies Supervisor
QAQC
Life Technologies Recruiter
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 521
Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew
choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the
University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that
we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise
option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to
know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising
who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of
Technology who has found that even young children assess the
expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p
40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make
wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the
alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the
immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by
manipulative leaders
Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that
flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a
rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up
precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of
apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing
on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation
An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your
reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In
purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway
because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team
players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch
And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision
theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of
our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)
So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in
ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should
become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually
make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are
not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone
searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the
Life Technologies Field Services
Engineer II
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 521
Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew
choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the
University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that
we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise
option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to
know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising
who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of
Technology who has found that even young children assess the
expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p
40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make
wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the
alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the
immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by
manipulative leaders
Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that
flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a
rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up
precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of
apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing
on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation
An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your
reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In
purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway
because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team
players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch
And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision
theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of
our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)
So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in
ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should
become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually
make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are
not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone
searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the
Life Technologies Field Services
Engineer II
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 621
Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether
But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions
should help everyone make better choices
Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally
sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments
wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so
bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of
the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more
likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade
you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI
101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of
your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might
remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a
new health regime
Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make
better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer
Mental glitches that make fools of us
The human brain does not compute options like a rational
computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless
some of our mental biases are hard to explain
In novel situations or ones where information is limited we
have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random
connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by
Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study
found that people asked to write a high number subsequently
bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who
wrote down a low number
Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to
risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is
the possibility of making large gains or small losses However
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721
we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of
making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our
inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been
dubbed the Black Swan effect
Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the
confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything
that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss
aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than
take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to
continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment
we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile
our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to
prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later
The logic of inconsistency
If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given
the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick
apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical
behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity
has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand
decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of
the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity
that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears
and plums
Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when
it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst
Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this
year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental
common currency for comparing options What this is or how
it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery
However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK
argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power
it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each
alternative This process could explain intransitivity according
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 821
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821
From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41
As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive
Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine
Tweet 19 1 66
to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton
University
He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different
brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears
and plums say and compete with each other to have their
preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide
on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain
the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a
trait we have evolved for its own advantage
Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist
If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online
please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist
does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available
for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to
Have your say
Me gusta 50
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 921
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 921
Commenttitle
Your name
Website
Comment
submitpreviewcancel
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost
your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of
need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it
anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions
reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are
tricked by a mental glitch
Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --
basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But
from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated
by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by
moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us
reproduce
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1021
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021
Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous
donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm
glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to
better performance in certain situations
If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and
hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment
below
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard
What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal
desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca
unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that
somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around
to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy
Then its a little selfish too
reply report this comment
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1121
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Yes thats true But even then its not following an
instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a
philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able
to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not
propagating the genes one has (neither by having
children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza
What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic
evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly
but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee
Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you
behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help
you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)
breed with you
In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in
the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that
youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I
wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221
charity theyve given and never told anyone about I
suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine
that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of
it being known than notfor the benefit of my living
family In one way that is selfish but in another its a
long time to wait for recognition while still helping others
Why bother People like others who give charity
because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing
them (should they need help) Charity and generosity
are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on
good trustworthy character
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpacademeiaedu
Re cover story - Decisions
In determining how humans make decisions one must
consider 2 aspects
1 The utility of a thing in the physical world
2 The utility of a thing in the mental world
Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a
decision has knowingly to be made
This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers
would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to
first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -
and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the
existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321
Searle or David Chalmers)
As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or
even existence within any deterministic framework - then any
theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky
ground One cannot even address the problem of which
decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to
consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself
For example and very simply - how would one determine that
the colour blue has the same meaning to two different
individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare
the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals
who wish to paint their house blue
Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is
fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one
can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it
from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw
some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively
subjective states
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds
httpphilpaperscom
One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or
Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of
probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific
probability distributions to define more carefully
qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this
end up one might get a better theory than quantum
mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty
embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos
reply report this comment
010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by
giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a
donation remains secret It seems to me that it is
reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses
inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)
I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy
of science which currently seems a little wonky -(
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza
People give anonymously because they believe in doing so
Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-
reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general
instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no
likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the
right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do
you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher
offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice
to make
reply report this comment
Its A Good Thing Too
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521
Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The question of how altruism can arise through evolution
is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)
But you may be right that it does and spills over to
situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic
persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or
philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true
as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of
the genes that produced it
Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I
dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel
good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in
Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people
donate their lives beyond the point of survival and
reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the
movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks
and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake
of Tibet
reply report this comment
view thread
Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg
As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are
determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable
unconscious
From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species
(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group
effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are
rather things given to us by the group of living things
So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621
consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions
We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell
within the body may function according to its motivations
without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it
is a part of
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the
possibility of making large gains or small losses
I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical
choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss
I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used
to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me
depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My
choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to
convince him to stop playing the lottery
Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than
to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have
rather than take a chance to make a gain
Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an
evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a
sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get
through the week
More generally the comments in the article are nonesense
when separated from the context of the original work I would
like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the
rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of
value remains
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008
that has a bearing on that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in
article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who
make assumptions about economic man that were
held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now
look less so
My own view is that there is more to utility than they
acknowledge and the difference seems to have
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821
p y y
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821
made a difference It would be good to see a fuller
exposition of these issues
reply report this comment
view thread
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily
Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer
For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully
aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is
less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or
so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im
paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on
my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope
that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to
me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not
NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
According to the mathematician who taught me decision
theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we
could explain your behaviour mathematically
reply report this comment
Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --
Not Necessarily
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921
Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen
Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is
deeply immoral but rational
reply report this comment
1 more reply
view thread
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a
very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the
situations described I expand on this at
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-
ns
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet
Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has
been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness
Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society
with complicated power relations which link to class structures
divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline
out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to
the individual- its called sociology You might look it up
someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021
read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2
reply report this comment
Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of
RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay
httpdjmarsaywordpresscom
I saw the article as about the short-term problem of
making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not
addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start
But it seems a false start
My reading of the article is that we could not even use a
utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island
If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds
for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes
This may be why behavioural economics is popular But
what the article says about utility is not true unless one
has a very narrow view of utility
reply report this comment
view thread
All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you
think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us
If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please
contact technical support
Back to top
010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out
7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist
httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121
wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121
search New Scientist Go
bout us
ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising
taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs
User Help
Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs
CookiesPrivacy Policy
Subscriptions
SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues
Customer Service
Links
Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs
The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site
Science Jobs
Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs
Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice
copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd
Log out