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7/29/2019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1/21 01/09/13 Decision time: How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228381.800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices.html?full=true#.UiN8bRu-2So 1/21 SUBSCRIBE & SAVE 20% » MANAGE MY ACCOUNT » GIVE A GIFT » Science in Society  search New Scientist Go Home  News  In-Depth Articles  Opinion  CultureLab  Galleries  Topic Guides  Last Word  Subscribe Look for Science Jobs SPACE TECH ENVIRONMENT HEALTH LIFE PHYSICS&M ATH SCIENCE IN SOCIETY Cookies & Privacy Struggling to make your mind up? Interpret your gut instincts to help you make the right choice DECISION-MAKING was supposed to have been cracked by science long ago. It started in 1654 with an exchange of letters between two eminent French mathematicians, Blaise Pascal and Pierre Fermat. Their insights into games of chance formed the foundation of probability theory. And in the 20th century the ideas were developed into decision theory, an elegant formulation beloved of economists and social scientists today. Decision theory sees humans as "rational optimisers". Given a choice, we weigh up each option, considering its value and probability, and then choose the one with the "highest expected utility". Tweet 19 1 66 This week's issue Subscribe 31 August 2013 My New Scientist Home | Science in Society | Life | Physics & Math In-Depth Articles Decision time: How subtle forces shape your choices 14 November 2011 by Kate Douglas Magazine issue 2838. Subscribe and save Dating Me gusta 50 Lo g o ut My New Scientist

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Page 1: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Science in Society

search New Scientist Go

Home News In-Depth Articles Opinion CultureLab Galleries Topic Guides Last Word Subscribe Look for Science Jobs

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Struggling to make your mind up Interpret your gut instincts to help

you make the right choice

DECISION-MAKING was supposed to have been cracked by science

long ago It started in 1654 with an exchange of letters between twoeminent French mathematicians Blaise Pascal and Pierre Fermat

Their insights into games of chance formed the foundation of

probability theory And in the 20th century the ideas were developed

into decision theory an elegant formulation beloved of economists and

social scientists today Decision theory sees humans as rational

optimisers Given a choice we weigh up each option considering its

value and probability and then choose the one with the highest

expected utility

Tweet 19 1

66

This weeks issue

Subscribe

31 August 2013

My New Scientist

Home | Science in Society | Life | Physics amp Math | In-Depth Articles

Decision time How subtle f orces shape your choices

14 November 2011 by Kate DouglasMagazine issue 2838 Subscribe and save

Dating

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With your experience of making decisions you have probably noticed

some flaws here Theres the risible idea that humans are rational and

the dubious notion that we would be capable of the on-the-hoof

calculations of probability even if we could access all the necessary

information Decision theory explains how we would make choices if we

were logical computers or all-knowing beings But were not We are

just rather clever apes with a brain shaped by natural selection to see

us through this messy world

Decision researchers had largely ignored this inconvenient reality

occasionally patching up their theory when experiments revealed

exceptions to their rules But that make-do-and-mend approach may

soon change Earlier this year an independent institute called the

Ernst Struumlngmann Forum assembled a group of big-thinking scientists

in Frankfurt Germany to consider whether we should abandon the old

idealistic decision theory and start afresh with a new realistic one

based on evolutionary principles The week-long workshop provided a

fascinating exploration of the forces that actually shape our decisions

innate biases emotions expectations misconceptions conformity and

other all-too-human factors While our decision-making may seeminconsistent or occasionally downright perverse the truly intriguing

thing is just how often these seemingly irrational forces help us make

the right choice

We must start by acknowledging that many of our choices are not

consciously calculated Each day we may face between 2500 and

10000 decisions ranging from minor concerns about what brand of

coffee to drink to the question of who we should marry and many of

these are made in the uncharted depths of the subconscious mind

Indeed Ap Dijksterhuis at the Radboud University Nijmegen in the

Netherlands and colleagues have found that our subconscious thinkingis particularly astute when we are faced with difficult choices such as

which house to buy or deciding between two cars with many different

features (Science vol 311 p 1005)

What drives these gut feelings Being inaccessible to conscious

examination the processes are particularly difficult to fathom One idea

is that they are based on heuristics - mental rules of thumb which

applied in appropriate situations allow us to make fast decisions with

Interpret your gut instincts to help you make theright choice (Image Kotryna Zukauskaite)

1 more image

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minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will

direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little

information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to

pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when

delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests

Evolutions satnav

Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-

wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder

they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington

has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a

romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The

recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better

guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt

whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they

argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor

cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to

select the correct heuristic to use

Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious

decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of

rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us

towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to

punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain

social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from

Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the

workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic

which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun

people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead

to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle

University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really

was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors

would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes

on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review

vol 10 p 47)

Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters

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This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the

most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to

compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify

Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank

alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For

example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of

coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and

only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called

decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also

lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank

alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive

Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy

friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the

top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent

you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by

sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate

threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more

likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger

Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford

takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the

information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows

us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik

believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement

learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has

worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are

also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst

and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see

The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent

inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences

change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We

may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory

but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological

rationality

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Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew

choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the

University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that

we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise

option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to

know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising

who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of

Technology who has found that even young children assess the

expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p

40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make

wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the

alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the

immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by

manipulative leaders

Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that

flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a

rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up

precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of

apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing

on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation

An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your

reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In

purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway

because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team

players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch

And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision

theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of

our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)

So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in

ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should

become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually

make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are

not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone

searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

Have your say

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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With your experience of making decisions you have probably noticed

some flaws here Theres the risible idea that humans are rational and

the dubious notion that we would be capable of the on-the-hoof

calculations of probability even if we could access all the necessary

information Decision theory explains how we would make choices if we

were logical computers or all-knowing beings But were not We are

just rather clever apes with a brain shaped by natural selection to see

us through this messy world

Decision researchers had largely ignored this inconvenient reality

occasionally patching up their theory when experiments revealed

exceptions to their rules But that make-do-and-mend approach may

soon change Earlier this year an independent institute called the

Ernst Struumlngmann Forum assembled a group of big-thinking scientists

in Frankfurt Germany to consider whether we should abandon the old

idealistic decision theory and start afresh with a new realistic one

based on evolutionary principles The week-long workshop provided a

fascinating exploration of the forces that actually shape our decisions

innate biases emotions expectations misconceptions conformity and

other all-too-human factors While our decision-making may seeminconsistent or occasionally downright perverse the truly intriguing

thing is just how often these seemingly irrational forces help us make

the right choice

We must start by acknowledging that many of our choices are not

consciously calculated Each day we may face between 2500 and

10000 decisions ranging from minor concerns about what brand of

coffee to drink to the question of who we should marry and many of

these are made in the uncharted depths of the subconscious mind

Indeed Ap Dijksterhuis at the Radboud University Nijmegen in the

Netherlands and colleagues have found that our subconscious thinkingis particularly astute when we are faced with difficult choices such as

which house to buy or deciding between two cars with many different

features (Science vol 311 p 1005)

What drives these gut feelings Being inaccessible to conscious

examination the processes are particularly difficult to fathom One idea

is that they are based on heuristics - mental rules of thumb which

applied in appropriate situations allow us to make fast decisions with

Interpret your gut instincts to help you make theright choice (Image Kotryna Zukauskaite)

1 more image

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minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will

direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little

information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to

pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when

delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests

Evolutions satnav

Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-

wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder

they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington

has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a

romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The

recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better

guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt

whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they

argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor

cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to

select the correct heuristic to use

Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious

decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of

rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us

towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to

punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain

social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from

Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the

workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic

which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun

people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead

to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle

University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really

was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors

would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes

on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review

vol 10 p 47)

Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters

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This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the

most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to

compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify

Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank

alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For

example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of

coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and

only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called

decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also

lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank

alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive

Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy

friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the

top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent

you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by

sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate

threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more

likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger

Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford

takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the

information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows

us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik

believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement

learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has

worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are

also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst

and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see

The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent

inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences

change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We

may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory

but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological

rationality

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Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew

choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the

University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that

we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise

option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to

know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising

who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of

Technology who has found that even young children assess the

expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p

40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make

wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the

alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the

immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by

manipulative leaders

Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that

flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a

rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up

precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of

apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing

on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation

An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your

reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In

purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway

because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team

players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch

And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision

theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of

our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)

So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in

ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should

become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually

make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are

not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone

searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

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010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

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Its A Good Thing Too

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

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made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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minimal cognitive effort The recognition heuristic for example will

direct you to choose a familiar option where there is very little

information to go on The satisficing heuristic meanwhile tells you to

pick the first option that meets or exceeds your expectations when

delaying a choice for too long is not in your interests

Evolutions satnav

Heuristics are shaped by previously successful choices - either hard-

wired by evolution or learned through trial and error - so its no wonder

they tend to work Peter Todd from Indiana University Bloomington

has shown for example that satisficing is a sound basis for choosing a

romantic partner (New Scientist 4 September 1999 p 32) The

recognition heuristic meanwhile may underpin some of your better

guesses in multiple choice quizzes However some critics doubt

whether our subconscious choices really are based on heuristics they

argue that this approach to decision-making would be neither fast nor

cognitively simple since we would need a complex mental mechanism to

select the correct heuristic to use

Our emotions may instead be the driving force in subconscious

decision-making We now know that far from being the antithesis of

rationality emotions are actually evolutions satnav directing us

towards choices that have survival benefits Anger can motivate us to

punish a transgressor for instance which might help us to maintain

social order and group cohesion So says Peter Hammerstein from

Humboldt University of Berlin Germany who helped organise the

workshop Disgust meanwhile makes us fastidious and moralistic

which should prompt choices that help us avoid disease and shun

people who dont play by the rules And while fear often seems to lead

to overreactions this makes sense when you consider the dangersfacing prehistor ic humans says Daniel Nettle from Newcastle

University UK On that one occasion where a rustle in the bushes really

was made by a predator the less neurotic peers of our ancestors

would have paid the ultimate price failing to pass their laid-back genes

on to the next generation (Personality and Social Psychology Review

vol 10 p 47)

Heuristics and emotions help us subconsciously focus on what matters

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This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the

most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to

compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify

Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank

alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For

example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of

coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and

only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called

decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also

lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank

alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive

Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy

friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the

top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent

you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by

sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate

threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more

likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger

Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford

takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the

information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows

us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik

believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement

learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has

worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are

also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst

and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see

The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent

inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences

change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We

may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory

but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological

rationality

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Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew

choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the

University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that

we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise

option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to

know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising

who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of

Technology who has found that even young children assess the

expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p

40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make

wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the

alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the

immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by

manipulative leaders

Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that

flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a

rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up

precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of

apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing

on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation

An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your

reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In

purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway

because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team

players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch

And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision

theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of

our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)

So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in

ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should

become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually

make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are

not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone

searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

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made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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This is just as important when we make conscious decisions Even the

most basic everyday situations are too complex for our brains to

compute all the necessary information Instead we must simplify

Gordon Brown at the University of Warwick UK argues that we rank

alternatives based on cognitively easy binary comparisons For

example when deciding whether pound220 is too much to pay for a cup of

coffee you might recall half a dozen occasions when you paid less and

only two when you paid more leading you to place this particular coffeein the expensive category and choose not to buy it This so-called

decision by sampling approach simplifies the options but it can also

lead to bad decisions when the limited information used to rank

alternatives is incorrect or based on false beliefs ( Cognitive

Psychology vol 53 p 1) If for instance frequent nights out with boozy

friends leads you to conclude that your alcohol consumption is in the

top 20 per cent of drinkers when in fact it falls in the top 1 per cent

you are more likely to decide to ignore the problem Decision by

sampling could even sway your choice when you face more immediate

threats people living in a society with high mortality rates are more

likely to decide to put themselves at risk than someone who has hadlittle experience of danger

Thats not very heartening but Alex Kacelnik at the University of Oxford

takes a more optimistic view of our ability to pick and choose the

information upon which we base our decisions Natural selection allows

us to correct our behaviour to do what works he says Kacelnik

believes the main force influencing decision-making is reinforcement

learning In other words we learn from experience and favour what has

worked in the past Nothing controversial there But he notes we are

also swayed by our changing internal states - things like hunger thirst

and libido - so that choices are tailored to our needs Decision theoryhas long struggled with the problem that people are inconsistent (see

The logic of inconsistency) but Kacelnik argues that apparent

inconsistencies in choice can arise simply because our preferences

change according to our needs Utility is a moving target he says We

may not show the economic rationality of traditional decision theory

but our choices have their own logic which he calls biological

rationality

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Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew

choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the

University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that

we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise

option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to

know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising

who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of

Technology who has found that even young children assess the

expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p

40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make

wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the

alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the

immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by

manipulative leaders

Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that

flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a

rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up

precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of

apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing

on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation

An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your

reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In

purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway

because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team

players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch

And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision

theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of

our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)

So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in

ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should

become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually

make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are

not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone

searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the

Life Technologies Field Services

Engineer II

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

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010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

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Its A Good Thing Too

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

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made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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Natural selection can even explain our puzzling propensity to eschew

choice altogether and simply follow the herd Rob Boyd from the

University of California Los Angeles pointed out at the workshop that

we have evolved to learn from others because this is often a wise

option In most situations it is way beyond an individuals capacity to

know the best thing to do he says But we are good at recognising

who to copy says Laura Schulz of Massachusetts Institute of

Technology who has found that even young children assess the

expertise of their teachers As a result our conformist tendenciesoften lead to surprisingly good choices (New Scientist 1 May 2010 p

40) They a llow us to fit in when we start a new school or job and make

wise purchases of the latest products without full information on the

alternatives The flip side is that we can also all fall into line with the

immoral or illegal behaviour of those around us or be swayed by

manipulative leaders

Consideration of others is yet another aspect of human behaviour that

flies in the face of decision theory There are many situations in which a

rational optimiser should not cooperate since such actions can use up

precious resources that we could use to better our own circumstancesFrom an evolutionary standpoint it could be argued that some forms of

apparent altruism help us to build alliances and improve our standing

on the social ladder but what about the times we overdo cooperation

An anonymous donation to char ity for example will not boost your

reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of need In

purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it anyway

because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions reward to team

players makes us feel good In effect we are tricked by a mental glitch

And it is not the only such glitch we possess Researchers in decision

theory have uncovered a variety of mental biases underlying some of

our more illogical and arbitrary behaviours (see Mental glitches thatmake fools of us)

So whats going on Have our brains evolved to direct our behaviour in

ways that have become maladaptive in the modern world That should

become clear as more decision researchers consider how we actually

make up our minds rather than how we should Accepting that we are

not rational optimisers will make life difficult for economists and anyone

searching for a formula for choice which is why some members of the

Life Technologies Field Services

Engineer II

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

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010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

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Its A Good Thing Too

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

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made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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Frankfurt group were reluctant to abandon decision theory altogether

But a better understanding of the forces that underpin our decisions

should help everyone make better choices

Conformists for example might be persuaded to adopt environmentally

sustainable habits simply because others already have Governments

wanting us to save up for retirement need to understand why we are so

bad at making long-term decisions And we could all be more aware of

the misconceptions and biases shaping our behaviour The discoveryof decision fatigue for instance which makes judges four times more

likely to grant bail in the morning than in the afternoon might persuade

you to take more time out when facing a string of tough problems

(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences DOI

101073pnas1018033108) And understanding that the behaviours of

your nearest and dearest can bias your view of your own lifestyle might

remind you to dig into the facts before you choose to follow or reject a

new health regime

Of all the choices that you face everyday the decision to try to make

better decisions is surely the biggest no-brainer

Mental glitches that make fools of us

The human brain does not compute options like a rational

computer yet our decisions are often effective Nevertheless

some of our mental biases are hard to explain

In novel situations or ones where information is limited we

have the unfortunate habit of basing decisions on random

connections This so-called anchoring effect was first shown by

Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University and the late AmosTversky and the consequences can be bemusing One study

found that people asked to write a high number subsequently

bid more for items whose value was unknown than people who

wrote down a low number

Kahneman and Tversky also revealed our peculiar attitudes to

risk We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is

the possibility of making large gains or small losses However

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 721

we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821

From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

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charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

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Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

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Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

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consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

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p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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Page 7: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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we choose unduly risky options when there is the chance of

making a small gain or a large loss In recent years our

inclination to undervalue rare but catastrophic events has been

dubbed the Black Swan effect

Another factor underpinning some bad decisions is the

confirmation bias - our tendency to overemphasise anything

that confirms what we already believe Then theres loss

aversion it feels worse to lose something than to gain theequivalent amount making us protect what we have rather than

take a chance to make a gain Also when choosing whether to

continue with a venture we irrationally consider the investment

we have already made in it - the sunk-cost fallacy Meanwhile

our short-term bias - temporal discounting - means we tend to

prefer smaller rewards now to bigger ones later

The logic of inconsistency

If you prefer apples to plums and plums to pears then given

the choice between apples and pears you will obviously pick

apples Or will you In reality people fail to show such logical

behaviour This kind of inconsistency known as intransitivity

has been a headache for mathematicians trying to understand

decision-making But their mistake may have been to think of

the human brain as a computer rather than a biological entity

that must solve the problem of how to compare apples pears

and plums

Admittedly our understanding of what goes on in a brain when

it makes a choice is very hazy as became apparent at an Ernst

Struumlngmann Forum on decision-making in Frankfurt earlier this

year It is generally agreed that there must be a mental

common currency for comparing options What this is or how

it converts into apples pears or whatever is a mystery

However Nick Chater from the University of Warwick UK

argues that because the brain lacks time and computing power

it evaluates only a limited number of attributes for each

alternative This process could explain intransitivity according

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 821

From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

If you would like to reuse any content from New Scientist either in print or online

please contact the syndication department first for permiss ion New Scientist

does not own rights to photos but there are a variety of licensing options available

for use of articles and graphics we own the copyright to

Have your say

Me gusta 50

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

reply report this comment

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

reply report this comment

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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From issue 2838 of New Scientist magazinepage 38-41

As a subscriber you have unlimited accessto our online archive

Why not browse past issues of New Scientistmagazine

Tweet 19 1 66

to cognitive psychologist Danny Oppenheimer of Princeton

University

He believes the brain uses a kind of voting system different

brain areas weigh up the various attributes of apples pears

and plums say and compete with each other to have their

preference chosen If theres no clear winner you might decide

on any of the fruit depending on which region happens to gain

the upper hand at that moment (see diagram) Intransitivitycould be a by-product of the way our brains work rather than a

trait we have evolved for its own advantage

Kate Douglas is an editor at New Scientist

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

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read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 124633 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

An anonymous donation to charity for example will not boost

your reputation or persuade others to help you in your hour of

need In purely evolutionary terms it is a bad choice But we do it

anyway because the warm glow of altruism which is evolutions

reward to team players makes us feel good In effect we are

tricked by a mental glitch

Thats looking at it only from the evolutionary point of view --

basically how to be selfish and thereby pass on our genes But

from a moral point of view its a good thing to be altruistic Peoplegive anonymously because they believe in doing so (as advocated

by Yeshua) Im glad that people are sometimes motivated by

moral concerns and not just by instincts which evolved to help us

reproduce

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1021

Its A Good Thing TooFri Nov 11 133502 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Even from an evolutionary point of view an anonymous

donation could be rational (in a broad sense) eg if the warm

glow of altruism gave us greater confidence and hence led to

better performance in certain situations

If we found this to be the case we might even do it again and

hence conciously I touch on this in my blog - see comment

below

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 172245 GMT 2011 by Richard

What about the evolution of the mind moving from animal

desires of selfishness to higher desires of selflessness

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Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 184132 GMT 2011 by rebecca

unless you hold a belief in karma or similar gut feeling that

somehow such actions will reflect back or come back around

to benefit you in the future Rather like an insurance policy

Then its a little selfish too

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

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Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

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Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

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Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

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read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

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think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

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Back to top

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7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

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search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

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Links

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7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1121

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 202607 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Yes thats true But even then its not following an

instinct that evolved to help us reproduce Its following a

philosophy a mental idea which no other animal is able

to form Sometimes it leads to death or to not

propagating the genes one has (neither by having

children nor by increasing the number of children thatrelatives have)

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081023 GMT 2011 by Liza

What you describe here sounds a lot like memetic

evolution after all the carrier may die childlessly

but if he can pass on his ideas to followers theideas will thrive

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooMon Nov 14 225924 GMT 2011 by Ameet Virdee

Belief can also serve a person via conformity When you

behave as others expect you to they are more likely totrust you If they trust you they are more likely to help

you like you and perhaps even (directly or indirectly)

breed with you

In another way blindly giving charity also allows you in

the future to honestly admit that youre so wealthy that

youre able to provide for others as well as yourself I

wonder what people on their deathbeds feel about

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

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copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

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Page 12: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1221

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1221

charity theyve given and never told anyone about I

suspect theyve simply forgotten about it but I imagine

that if on mine it would be nicer dying with the memory of

it being known than notfor the benefit of my living

family In one way that is selfish but in another its a

long time to wait for recognition while still helping others

Why bother People like others who give charity

because it reduces the risk in their own life by knowing

them (should they need help) Charity and generosity

are certainly linked and much like an insurance policy on

good trustworthy character

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooTue Nov 15 101610 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpacademeiaedu

Re cover story - Decisions

In determining how humans make decisions one must

consider 2 aspects

1 The utility of a thing in the physical world

2 The utility of a thing in the mental world

Number one might of itself be very complex in cases where a

decision has knowingly to be made

This notwithstanding a significant number of philosphers

would argue that in considering number 2 - one would have to

first deal with the problem of deciding what exactly mind is -

and many would argue that mind or the mental involves the

existence of Qualia or qualitively subjective states (see John

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

Subscriptions

SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

Customer Service

Links

Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs

The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site

Science Jobs

Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs

Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice

copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

Log out

Page 13: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1321

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1321

Searle or David Chalmers)

As such states appear to be elusive as to there analysis or

even existence within any deterministic framework - then any

theory about decisions involving them is at best on very shaky

ground One cannot even address the problem of which

decisions are made subconsciously as opposed to

consciously as one cannot define consciousness itself

For example and very simply - how would one determine that

the colour blue has the same meaning to two different

individuals If we cannot know this - then how can we compare

the utility of a particular shade of blue paint to two individuals

who wish to paint their house blue

Perhaps the very question of how humans make decisions is

fundamental to a philosophical account of the world If one

can determine a robots idea of utility - one might subtract it

from a biologically derived utility - and the differences throw

some insight into the origin of Qualia or qualitatively

subjective states

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 141715 GMT 2011 by peter reynolds

httpphilpaperscom

One might even approach the concept of Qualia - or

Qualitatively Subjective States from the point of view of

probabilistic decision theory One might attribute specific

probability distributions to define more carefully

qualitative characteristics of objects if we start from this

end up one might get a better theory than quantum

mechanics to what extent are the apparent certainty

embodied in numbers themselves the result of mythos

reply report this comment

010913 D i i ti H btl f h h i i i i t 14 N b 2011 N S i ti t

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

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SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

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Page 14: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1421

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1421

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 150843 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I think that anonymous acts have tended to pay off by

giving me confidence in subsequent situations even if a

donation remains secret It seems to me that it is

reasonable for me to expect there to be utility in medoing so again I do not understand how anyone elses

inability to model my mind affects my utility function -)

I think your comment is very pertinent to the philosophy

of science which currently seems a little wonky -(

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 081620 GMT 2011 by Liza

People give anonymously because they believe in doing so

Are you so certain Altruism has many evulutionary benefits-

reciprocity increasing status within the group- so a general

instinct towards atruism makes us donate even if theres no

likely benefit Do people donate because they consider it the

right thing to do or because it makes them feel good How do

you even distinguish Notice that virtually no-one donates upto the point where hisher own survival or that of hisher

offspring gets threathened even if it may be the moral choice

to make

reply report this comment

Its A Good Thing Too

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

Subscriptions

SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

Customer Service

Links

Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs

The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site

Science Jobs

Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs

Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice

copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

Log out

Page 15: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1521

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1521

Wed Nov 16 230651 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The question of how altruism can arise through evolution

is hard See my comments here (long URL - click here)

But you may be right that it does and spills over to

situations where it doesnt do any good for the altruistic

persons genes Maybe our ability to be good or

philosophical is a side effect of evolution but its still true

as I say that it does not (always) promote the survival of

the genes that produced it

Yes doing the right thing can make one feel good But I

dont think thats always the case Yeshua didnt feel

good about being crucified (note his anguished prayer in

Gethsemane) And there are other cases where people

donate their lives beyond the point of survival and

reproduction What about monks and nuns -- as in the

movie Des Hommes et des Dieux or the Tibetan monks

and nuns who are setting themselves on fire for the sake

of Tibet

reply report this comment

view thread

Its A Good Thing TooWed Nov 16 100451 GMT 2011 by Driberg

As the article says many of our decisions (or actions) are

determined by feelings and emotions or the unfathomable

unconscious

From a life evolutionary point of view the survival of a species

(or living beings generally) is a like a co-ordinated group

effort so what we may think of as individual motivations are

rather things given to us by the group of living things

So we may not as idividuals always understand or be able to

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

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Page 16: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1621

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1621

consciously rationalise our motivations actions and decisions

We are rather part of a collective organism Similarly a cell

within the body may function according to its motivations

without any conscious awareness of the greater being that it

is a part of

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 130558 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

We tend to be more cautious than is logical when there is the

possibility of making large gains or small losses

I dont know A lot of people play the lottery which is an illogical

choice to go for a large gain or (more probably) incur a small loss

I once made a bit of money by offering to give a friend (who used

to play the lottery) 50 sheqels for 1 sheqel that he would give me

depending on a random number with odds 99 to 1 in my favor My

choice to do this was logical but his was not I did not manage to

convince him to stop playing the lottery

Then theres loss aversion it feels worse to lose something than

to gain the equivalent amount making us protect what we have

rather than take a chance to make a gain

Thats actually logical Things have more value when you have alittle than when you have a lot

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 134120 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

010913 Decision time Howsubtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

Subscriptions

SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

Customer Service

Links

Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs

The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site

Science Jobs

Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs

Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice

copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

Log out

Page 17: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1721

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices science in society 14 November 2011 New Scientist

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1721

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

In my blog (see below) I argue that it can be rational an

evolutionary stable strategy to play the lottery if it gives you a

sense of hope and something to talk about to help you get

through the week

More generally the comments in the article are nonesense

when separated from the context of the original work I would

like to see a fuller account not behind a pay-wall as this areais obviously very important It seems to me that much of the

rationale for it evaporated in 2008 and it is not clear what of

value remains

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyFri Nov 11 211423 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

The rationale for the pay-wall What happened in 2008

that has a bearing on that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not NecessarilyWed Nov 16 151519 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

Sorry The rationale for the views expressed in

article seems to depend on Kahneman et al who

make assumptions about economic man that were

held to be reasonable prior to the crash but now

look less so

My own view is that there is more to utility than they

acknowledge and the difference seems to have

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

Subscriptions

SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

Customer Service

Links

Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs

The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site

Science Jobs

Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs

Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice

copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

Log out

Page 18: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1821

p y y

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1821

made a difference It would be good to see a fuller

exposition of these issues

reply report this comment

view thread

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- NotNecessarily

Sun Nov 13 071424 GMT 2011 by ullrich fischer

For some of us playing the lottery is partly altruistic Im fully

aware that the odds of my winning a jackpot in the lottery is

less than being hit twice by lightning but I still put in my $2 or

so a week It buys me two things The fuzzy feeling that Im

paying a voluntary tax and slightly lightening the burden on

my fellow citizens and the slight excitement in the faint hope

that that proverbial double lightning will strike me The cost to

me is negligible the benefit slightly more than than that

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us -- Not

NecessarilyWed Nov 16 152042 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

According to the mathematician who taught me decision

theory you are deeply immoral but rational Others wouldhave it the other way around I would like to think that we

could explain your behaviour mathematically

reply report this comment

Mental Glitches That Make Fools Of Us --

Not Necessarily

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 1921

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 1921

Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

reply report this comment

1 more reply

view thread

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

search New Scientist Go

bout us

ew Scientistyndicationecruitmentdvertising

taff at New ScientistdvertiseBI Jobs

User Help

Contact UsFAQ HelpDisclaimer Ts amp Cs

CookiesPrivacy Policy

Subscriptions

SubscribeRenewGift subscriptionBack issues

Customer Service

Links

Site MapBrowse all articlesMagazine archiveNewScientistJobs

The Last WordRSS FeedsOnline Store Android AppLow-bandwidth site

Science Jobs

Search all JobsBiology JobsChemistry JobsClinical Jobs

Earth amp EnvironmentJobsEngineering JobsMaths amp IT JobsCareers Advice

copy Copyright Reed Business Information Ltd

Log out

Page 19: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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Wed Nov 16 232520 GMT 2011 by Eric Kvaalen

Why would your mathematician say that Ullrich is

deeply immoral but rational

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityFri Nov 11 132931 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

The article raises some important issues but confuses by using a

very narrow notion of rationality that appears inappropriate to the

situations described I expand on this at

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom20111111making-your-mind-up-

ns

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityTue Nov 15 051657 GMT 2011 by Emmet

Typical individualistic evolutionary psychology claptrap It has

been thousands of years since we lived in the wilderness

Absolutely no recognition that we exist in a complex society

with complicated power relations which link to class structures

divergent and hierarchical legitimacies There is a discipline

out there covering this stuff - not standardising the world to

the individual- its called sociology You might look it up

someday A Nice start would be Bourdieus Distinction

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

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Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

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010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

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Page 20: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2021

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2021

read all 27 comments Comments 1 | 2

reply report this comment

Do We Need A More Appropriate Notion Of

RationalityWed Nov 16 153338 GMT 2011 by Dave Marsay

httpdjmarsaywordpresscom

I saw the article as about the short-term problem of

making a decision based on given values rather thanthe long-term problem of how values develop So not

addressing social aspects seems reasonable as a start

But it seems a false start

My reading of the article is that we could not even use a

utility-based approach for a lone man on a desert island

If this were true then there would clearly be no grounds

for arguing that free markets lead to optimum outcomes

This may be why behavioural economics is popular But

what the article says about utility is not true unless one

has a very narrow view of utility

reply report this comment

view thread

All comments should respect the New Scientist House Rules If you

think a particular comment breaks these rules then please use theReport link in that comment to report it to us

If you are having a technical problem posting a comment please

contact technical support

Back to top

010913 Decision time How subtle forces shape your choices - science-in-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

httpslidepdfcomreaderfulldecision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choices-science-in-society- 2121

wwwnewscientistcomarticlemg21228381800-decision-time-how-subtle-forces-shape-your-choiceshtmlfull=trueUiN8bRu-2So 2121

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Page 21: Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

7292019 Decision Time_ How Subtle Forces Shape Your Choices - Science-In-society - 14 November 2011 - New Scientist

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