deposition of marion d robinson · pdf file- 00106 in the united states district court for the...
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- 00106
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTFOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
HAMMOND DIVISION
UNITED STATE OF AMERICA, ))
Plaintiff, ))
vs. ))
MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC., )a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIAL )WASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., a )corporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS, )INCORPORATED, a corporation; V and E )CORPORATION, a corporation; and )ERKEST DeHART, EDWARD D. CONLEY , )
10 HELGA C. CONLEY, LOVIE DeHART, )CHARLES A. LIGHT, DAVID E. LICHT, )DELORES LICHT, EUGENE CLISIAK, )JEAtlETTE CLISIAK, LUTHER G. BLOOMBEKG , )
12 EOBEHT 3. DAVISOS, JR., VICTOR KIRSCK, )JOHN KIRSCI1, EVA KIRSCU, JOHN HILETICK, )
13 and MAPY MILKTICH, individuals , ))
14 Defendants, ))
, 5 V I A * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ) CIVIL ACTION) NO. H-79-556
16 ROBERT J. DAWSOH, JR., ))
Cross-Claimant, ))
18 vs. ))
19 MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC., )a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIAL )
20 WASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., a }corporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS, )
21 INCORPORATED, a corporation; V ana E )CORPORATION, a corporation; and )
22 ESKF.ST DsIlAHT, EDWARD D. COSLEY , !KEI.CA c. co:;iEy, LOVIE DOHAKT, )
23 CliAKLE-r. .?•. . L I G H T , DAVI'.: i. , L ICHT, )DF,LO:?ES LTC.KT, FUCEKt: C L I S I A K , )
24 JIOANI-.TTi C L I A 1 A K , U"i'K5?" G. HLOO'l-UiE'^G .. )VICTOR KIP.SCI:, joi;i; ;:ii'.ac!i, EVA KIP.SCK, )
25 jo;;r; Miiir.Tici'. , nnd I.-AUY rr i i .KTici ; , )i r. ii i v i. '\ •> a I s , )
)Defendant.-; , )
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The deposition of MARRIN DALE ROBINSON, awitness in the above entitled cause, called by theplaintiff herein, pursuant to notice and pursuant tothe Provisions of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedurefor the United States District Courts, taken beforeBrenda J. Cueller, a duly qualified and completentcourt reporter at 507 State Street, Hammond, Indiana,on Friday, January 4, 1980, commencing at the hour of4:20 p.m.
A P P E A R A N C E S :
MR. ANDREW B. BAKER,Assistant U.S. Attorney,507 State Street,Hararoond, Indiana,
on behalf of plaintiff;
ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Michael Herman,Environmental ProtectionAgency, Region Five,230 South Dearborn,Chicago, Illinois 60604;
Mr. Allan Baumann;Mr. Dean Miller.
* * * * *
MARRIN DALE ROBINSON
called as a witness by the plaintiff herein,being first duly sworn to testify the truthand nothing but the truth deposeth and saithas follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIONBy Mr. Baker:
V.'ould you state your name, please, sir?
Marrin, M-a-r-r-i-n, Dale Robinson.
How are you known, sir?
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A. How am I known?
Q. Yes, just by the name Dale?
A. Dale, right.
0- What is your present employment, sir?
A. Paul's Auto Yard.
0- Pardon me?
A. Paul's Auto Yard.
Qi Whore is that?
A. Gary, Indiana.
Q Who runs that?
A. Paul.
& Paul who, sir?
A. Shafer.
0- Are you familiar with a Ron Crouch?
A. Yes, sir.
(X Do you know where he is today?
A, Yes, sir.
0. Where is that?
A. He works at Christenson Chevie .
0- viorks at Christenson Chevrolet?
A. Yes.
Q- Do you know if he knows an Ernest DeKart?
R. Yes, sir.
0- Do you know ar. Ernsst DeHar t?
A. Yes, sir.
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0. When is the last time you saw Ernest DeHart?
A. Sunday or Tuesday — New Year's Eve -- New Year's
Day.
& Where did you see him, sir?
A. Upland, Indiana.
& Whereabouts in Upland, Indiana?
A. 710 North Avenue.
0- Is that his residence?
A. I don't know if that's his residence. That's
his property.
fr What is at that location?
A. It's a dwelling.
0 Where is Upland, Indiana, sir?
A. It's just east of Marion, Indiana.
Q. How long have you known Mr. DeHart?
A. Six, seven years.
& What is your association with Mr. DeHart?
A. I worked for him as a maintenance man and under —
when I first knew him at Midwest Recycling, I
worked as a truck driver.
0. Where is Midwest Recycling?
A. Usec! to be in Hammond.
& And when did you work there, approximately?
A, It's around 74, '75, but I coulc! be a year or
two either way at that. I don't remember.
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ft When was the last time that you saw Mr. DeHart's
wife?
A. About three years.
ft Was she not with him on New Year's Eve?
A. No. He was outside. I never stop. He was
outside unloading a truck.
ft What was your occasion to be in Upland, Indiana?
A. Me and Ron road down there because I didn't know
what this deal — I didn't even talk to him. We
didn't know what this deal was or didn't talk
to him or whatever. We had a good idea where he
was at, but we didn't know for sure.
Q. Did you have a conversation with him at that time?
A. Ko.
ft Did Mr. Crouch have a conversation with him?
A. No. Mr. Crouch's idea was not to stop, so we
didn't stop.
ft Do you know where Mr. Crouch resides today?
A. He lives in Huntsville is all. He lives on
California Avenue, but I don't know what,
ft California Avenue in Huntsville?
A. I believe, California Avenue. I'm not sure on
that.
ft Does ha have a telephone number?
A. No, he doesn't have a telephone number.
1 ft When was the last time that you had a conversation
2 with Mr. DeHart?
A. See, I been quit a year and a half — right at
two years, somewhere in there.
Q. Were you personals friends with him?
a. Yup.
ft You visit him socially and he visited you socially?
A. No, just work.
& What you would consider good terms with him today?
10 A. Up until this moment.
Mr. Crouch was on good terms with him as far as
12 you know?
13 A. No.
He's not?
(Shaking head)
Are you acquainted with Mr. DeHart's son?
Myron, yes, sir.
Does he have any other children besides Myron?
Yes. He has one, but he wasn't around with ths
company. So, I don't know him that well. I just
know him when I Bee him. I don't know his name.
You don't know his name. Do you know where he
lives today?
Myron?
No, the other con.
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A. NO.
& Do you know where Myron is today?
A. Not exactly. Myron lives in Salamonie Reservoir,
and that it.
& Where is Salamonie?
A. That is just north of Marion somewhere there.
He lives on an abandoned farm in a house trailer,
but I never seen it.
OL Have you seen the Conleys?
A. Conleys, yes.
& When is the last time you saw the Conleys?
A. About three years — I seen which Conley?
MR. HERMAN: Edward and Helga.
THE WITNESS: Edward Conley, it's been about
four years since I seen him.
Qi Do you know where he lives today?
A. No.
Qi Have you heard any rumors which would indicate
where he is?
A. He is a carpenter out east someplace, but to even
guess, I wouldn't know.
Qi The address you had for Mr. ije.llart is 710 North
Avenue, Upland, Indiana?
A, Yes, sir.
& And you don't knov/ where Myron lives?
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a.
&
A.
C-
Except around the reservoir.
In the Salmonie Reservoir?
That's correct.
Where were you first employed by Mr. DeHart?
Midwest Recycle.
And especially, where is that located as best
you can recall?
I don't know the address. It's in Hamraond,
Indiana, and it's just a block off the truck
route where he makes a little jog around Indiana,
but I can't recall the street. It's tore down
now. It's a vacant lot.
What operation was conducted at that site?
It was a thinner reclamation or reclaims thinners.
What did you do at that site?
I was a truck driver.
What did the center do? What was exactly per-
formed in the way it was worked?
Reclaimed thinner.
How did they do that?
Run it through stills.
Through what steers?
Stills.
Stills?
Stills, yes.
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0. Okay. Who owned this operation, Mr. DeHart?
A. DeKart was one of the owners. Joe Skroznic was
another owner, and there is another guy that
skipped town that was in it, but I can't --
John something or other. I can't recall right
now. It was about three of them in it, I think.
MR. HERMAN: Could you spell Sckronic?
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
MR. BAKER: Q And they operate under the
corporate name of --
A. Midwest Recycling.
& Who was your immediate boss or who was in charge
of —
A. Ed Cor.ley.
$ Ed, who?
A. Conley.
OL Ed Conley?
A, For that he was a foreman.
Q. Excuse me for a second.
MR. BEIUiA!): Let's take a break for a minute.
(Whereupon, a short recesswas taken.)
MR. BAKER: 0 This is the same Mr. Conley
you talked about previously about last seeing
about three years ago?
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Three or four years ago. I believe, I said four
years ago.
Okay. Did you have occasion to leave that em-
ployment after this recycling?
Midwest Recycling?
Right.
Yes. I didn't like the job. I quit.
And what did you do?
I went to work on construction.
Okay. Did there come a time when you returned
to the employment in an operation owned by Mr.
DeHart?
Yes.
When and where was that, sir, as best as you can
raoall?
It was in '76 — in that area. I believe, '76.
And where was the employment located?
15th Avenue.
7<!00 15th Aveneu, that was tha location depicted
in Deposition Exhibit 2?
Yes.
Did there come an occasion when there was a fire
at that location?
Yes.
Do you recall whan that was?
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It was the day Richard Mayer or was today before
Christmas when — when did the mayor of Chicago
die?
MR. BERMAN: Daley?
MR. BAUMANN: December 23 or 22.
THE WITNESS: That was the day of the fire.
MR. BAKER: Q In around the Christime, in
what year? '76?
It's been about three years. About '76, pretty
close.
Okay. And you started work at that site sometime
before that fire/ ie that correct?
Yes, about six, eight months before.
And what business was being conducted at that
site prior —
What business was being conducted?
Yea.
They was in the process of taking in thinners and
emptying drums. They had -- well, they was taking
in waste chemicals and disposing of them.
How were they disposing them?
Several different methods -- on the ground, in
thp ground, under the ground.
Did you ever observe any chemicals being disposed
of on the ground?
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A. Yes.
Qi And who was doing this?
A. The employment of Midwest or Midco. At that time,
it was Midwest,
fit Solvent Recovery?
A. Midwest Solvent.
Qi Okay.
A. I'm not for sure about that, but I think, at that
time, it was Midwest Solvent.
10 ft But it was the employees of the company that
was operating the site at this time there in '76?
12 A. Right.
And what chemicals were being disposed of on the
ground?
15 A. Right at the very first one I started as far as
16 I know at that time was thinners, acids, and
17 caustics.
18 0- And whereabouts was this being done? I hand you
19 deposition Exhibit 3 and ask you if there is
20 ; an area depicted there where these things were
21 being poured on the ground?
22 A. Frora th<3 edge of the building north and northwest
23 all tho way back into Clisiak's property.
24 Q. Are you familiar with the different properties
25 I] involved in this?
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A.
0
A.
ft
A.
ft
A.
ft
fl.
o.•>.
&a.0a.
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A,
r>.
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Yes, by looking at the -- not exactly, but I got
a rough idea where it is.
Do you know where Mr. CliBiak's got at this
place?
Yes.
When was that?
This was about six months after I was running
Industrial Tectonics.
Okay. But you didn't see him during your employ-
ment with Mr. DeHart?
No.
How about Mr. Blocroberg?
no.How about Mr. Dawson?
Mow, these names if they're not connected with
Vie Kirsch, no.
Did you ever see Vie Kirsch out there?
Yes.
When did you?
All along we hauled them for the field.
What area of the site was fill put in?
All the way from the. north -- north of the build-
ing all the v;ay through to Clisiak's property.
This all used to be south (indicating).
Was swamp put on Clirfiak's property?
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A. Yes.
Q That is a joint —
A. Northwest corner.
& Northwest?
A. Would be northeast corner of State Department.
& Has that before barrels were put on the base or
after barrel —
B. That was during. Barrels there were — drums
were buried in the swamp.
0. Who performed this work hauling and fill?
A. Vie Kirsch.
0. Himself or employees of his?
A. Employees of his.
0- Did you see him on the site observing the work.
being donw?
A. I don't know if it was Vie Kirsch hisself or one
of his officers used to come and collect the
money for the work that they had performed.
& They did this for Mr. DeHart?
ft. Yes.
Q, Can you point out to me the locations on that
where the barrels were buried and covered with
fill? Approximately?
A. C'-.-?,y. Let's aeo. In the araa west of the
original building to the State Department fence
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line. I said west, didn't 17 And then north
all the way up to the end of Clisiak's property
back to Lane Avenue. The whole area.
Q. Mow, you indicated originally that there was a
building on there — the building destroyed in
the fire?
JL Yes.
0. And were the in ground tanks under that dock
put in there before or after the fire?
A. Before.
C. Were you there when it was put in?
A. Yes.
Q V.'as the building in existence when that tank
was put in there?
A. Ho. It was put in during the construction of
tha building.
Q. What does the tank consist of that is in there?
A. Right at the present time, it is a mixture — you
got two tanks.
Q. Two tanks under the dock?
A. Yes.
Q. What ara —
A. The 20,000 gallon tankais paint sludges that is
aolidiiiac! other waste chemicals. The liquid is
caustic and jet fuel.
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ft And that's in a different tank?
fl. That's all in one tank. That's in the big tank.
ft And what is that tank, and old railroad car?
A. Yes, I think so. I'm not for sure, but I think,
that's what it was.
QL And the other tank is how big?
A. It's about 5,000 gallon tank.
ft And what's in that?
A. It is three-quarters full of paint sludges that
is solidified, hard, and the other liquid in that
is caustics and jet fuel.
ft How did jet fuel get in there?
'•- Well, the customers take out -- wash out liners
or tanks. I don't know what their operation was,
but it's just a real small portion of, you know, j
tank wash of caustic material. It's a tank that
had jet fuel in it and was washed with caustics.
Q. Mere these tanks used in your solvent recovery
system?
P. Yes.
!). Was that stuff pumped out?
\ Y-33, sir.
0. J\nd oo no-; the jet fue.l : s not in there?
\ ??o, it1;: in ther-3 now. Pr io r to -~
0. ov.?" Lot me tike this in a time sequence.
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When you first started work for Mr.
DeHart, what was being done with the chemicals
that were received — chemical waste that were
received on the site just dumped on the ground?
Part of it was, part of it wasn't.
How did they determine to do with that?
The real strong high grade -- your E.N.E.K. and
stronger thinners were poured in the — these
drums (indicating) into the tanks under the dock,
and in one, we were sucking thorn out and shipped
them to a reclaim outfit.
Your cheaper grade thinners and the
fchinners that was real heavy with paint, you know,
'ike i company washes out your paint lines, they
ill hava a lot of paint in them. So, they are
dumped on the ground and then covered with fill.
What other materials were received in there other
than those solvents you talked about?
Acids, cyanide, all your plate in sludges.
V?hat was done with these?
"our plain sludges was nickel, copper, chrome.
Wh?.t '.fore done with these materials?
"hi-;y wars dumped out in a pit in the back.
TVoy \'oro tfuripor! in a pit :'n tho back of the site?
Th^r. vb?.t wr.r. dr.no with the drums?
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The drums was — well, the acid-type drums was
took back to customers. We had several plating
companies that we would supply them with drums
if the drum empty. Sometimes they would be too
much slums and stuff in the bottom, and then we
just bury the drums.
Okay. The acid, did you participate in the bury-
ing?
Ho.
0- When you say, "We buried", you mean the company?
A. Yes, sir.
Did you participate in the pouring of the chemicals|
on the ground?
S. l!o, eir.
OL t-'hat V7as your position with them?
I was operator and maintenance man.
When you say, "operator", what did you do?
A. I dug holes.
9. You dug holes for this stuff to be buried in?
I don't know what it was for. I was just told.
And then you watched stuff being put in there?
PL Yes.
1 fi.r'1 you covered! them up?
Ye- .
thut vrag at the dirsction of Mr. DeHart?
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And did you have a supervisor over you other than
Mr. DeHart at this site at this time?
Not at this time, no.
You were taking your orders from Mr. DeHart?
Yes, sir.
You know of any other materials at this time that
were received by the site at this time that you
can describe?
No. There were others. I don't know what they
were, how much.
Do you know what was done with other material
other than you described?
I don't understand the question.
Hero any other things done with the truck -- were
-i^viks clumped out on the street or dumped into
sewers or stuff?
Yes. They were dumped into the filter bed.
Where is that?
3900 Industrial Highway.
Is that the other side owned by or operated by
Kr. DeHart?
Yes.
Kh.^r-3 is the filter bad on thot siti?
It's :.-. the cxtrans --
licr.r r jor t ion?
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fl. — northeast corner.
0- What did the filter bed consist of?
It's about three or four hundred foot long.
About 30, 35 foor wide. About seven or eight foot
deep filled with construction debris with two or
with one old tank truck, gasoline tank truck,
split in half at the north end of it and a pipe
running all over the back.
Pop?
Perforated pipe.
Where does that pipe run off to?
Into the filter bed and one goes into the creek.
Goes directly from this filter into the creek?
Uh-huh.
Did you have any part in building this?
Yes. What do you mean?
Die! you participate in building this building --
the work?
JMs an employee as told to do it?
Yes, sir.
night.
"•rh<3t was dumped in here?
7hir.:r.ici-a, tank v/ ich. £nc! ti'rJ: wash you can get
<..:.j"tli Li ;y f rcn lard to .-"h^rnp^c , cyanide, acide —
v. •.: a K , K ilt1. a c i £ .
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Q. What type did the weak come in?
A. Weak mild tank.
0- Were these dumped on the ground at the Midwest
site depicted in Exhibit 2?
A. Ask that again?
QL Were any of these tanks dumped oh the ground in
this site?
a. Yes, sir.
fr Whereabouts?
A. At the north end running from Blaine Avenue back
to within 52 75 foot State Highway line.
Q. And what was contained in these tanks?
A. Various materials. I don't know, but I can't be
sure about cyanide. Dut I'm sure that they was
thinners and very weak acids. Michigan gots a
very strict E.P. A. law and some of the — and
some of the liquid that come in you can actually
wash your hands in it, but it's illegal to dump
in Michigan. So, they bring it down — it's
real weak caustics and acids.
G *-nd also some thinnwro?
'- Thinners, yes. The thinners was run straight out
the dock. Thay had a big line running out the
clock bac): here ~- pui?p back here (indicating) .
Q. Laying on top or the ground?
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Uh-huh.
Set by a pump?
Uh-huh.
This is thinner washed from tanks or other minor
material?
This is thinner we emptied out of the drums.
Pumped into the ground?
Yes.
MR. BAKER: Let's leave the record for a
minute.
(Whereupon, a brief discussionwas held off the record.)
MR. BAKER: Q Ware any solvents you poured
out of the drums sold anywhere at this time,
1976, from this site?
Yes.
Where were they taken and sold, if you know?
Seymour Recycling.
Where is that?
Seymour, Indiana. This is the better and higher
grade thinner.
The stuff you didn't pump out on the ground?
Right.
Okay. Were any pits dug in the ground on this
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1 Bite to receive liquid chemical not in drums?
2 A. Yes.
ft And where were they dug? Can you tell me on
Exhibit 2?
ft. Well, you want it marked in this area right
here (indicating).
Q. Can you put it on 3 since I have that?
A. You can see it real good. Here, you can hardly
see it (indicating).
& How deep was that hole?
\ Eight foot.
Qi What was put in there, sir?
A. Paint sludges.
0. P.nd how was it covered up?
a. It's not.
ft It wasn't covered at all?
A. Ho. You step in that, you go over your head.
Q. Any other places on this site where things were
put into the ground?
A. That about covers that whole area there,
ft How about beyond and north of this?
A. Yes.
Q, What is up north in that area?
A. Mostly liquid.
Q What liquid would be put in there?
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A. It was water -- the drums, each drum, had any-
where from 75 to 98 percent water, and the
remainder was lacquer film. That is water and
lacquer film.
Q. That was in the drums that were taken up there?
a. No. The drums wasn't taken up there. It was
sucked out in a vacuum truck and blown out.
0 That is these particular drums with lacquer in it,
not all drums had lacquer in it?
A. No. This was from one account with the lacquer
in it, that I recall one.
0 Any other water taken up there, liquid taken
up there and dumped?
A. Not to my knowledge.
0 Did you take that taking up there and dumping?
A. No.
Q. Someone else?
A. Someone else.
& What did you say you operated for Mr. DeHart at
this site?
A. Nell, I was fill in truck driver, a dozer, and
did all the rainter.ance work.
Q, -Jho else did ha have employed with him in 1976
jit this sits, sir?
\ Mvron DeHart.
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1 (I That's his son?
2 A. Yes. That is about the only one. They come in —
3 kids cone in and go, you know. They stay one,
4 two, three months. There is a guy named Jim
5 White. A guy named Jim Gosraan that held me in
6 the other site, not this site. And that's all
7 i can remember right now, but they come and go.
8 it's a dirty, stinking job.
9 g. You say, you were a backup driver. Whom were
10 you a backup to?
11 A. I was a backup to a guy named John. They had
12 three truck drivers, but they didn't stay around
13 too long either. I can't -- John is the only one
14 I can recall. I don't recall what his last name
15 was.
16 0. Who did most of the work handling the drums and
17 so forth at this site?
18 A. Myron Dcliart and the, you know, the people that
19 came in -- the young kids, laborers. Myron was
20 ths foreman.
21 Q. v;as ha there the whole tine, 1976, or part of
22 the time?
23 A. Yos.
24 0- 13i<2 chore corns a tine whsn they had a fire on
25 this sit:ri?
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Uh-huh.
Do you know how that fire started?
Yes.
How did the fire start?
They had an open sludge pit against the north
side of the building that they dug paint sludges
into, and a laborer dumped acid into the sludge
pit -- chemical reaction.
Chemical reaction started the fire?
Yes, sir.
Then what happened?
She burned to the ground.
Did drums ignite?
Yes.
How wera the drums stored in there at that tine?
They were laid stock on top of each other about
four, five high — solid.
Do you have any idea how many drums there were
in there?
I think, estimate 70, 80,000.
Ware they on their sides or standing up?
Laying down. The biggest portion of them were
laying down.
What work, if any, did you do on this site
imafic1..Lately a f te r the f i re?
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S. We moved to 5900 Industrial Highway.
Q. Had you been over there at Industrial Highway
prior to the fire?
A. Yes.
Q. What was going on that site immediately prior
to the fire?
A. Stockpiling.
Q. Stockpiling what?
A. Chemicals, thlnners, acids, caustics.
Qt Did they stick on any of the material that came
in what they were?
fl. No. Partially, it wasn't — when they was set
in, they were segregated; but we got cramped for
space, and then it all became just one, you know.
It all came in together then.
Q. Okay.
S. The ground was rough. So, they level off the
spot, and then set cyanide there or acid and then
they go over here and set thinners, but eventually,
it all came together.
;. How many drums did you store up on the ground at
tha 7400 —
A. ."'.ppror.i.rnately •--
0 ••- or 5900 Industrial Highway?
A. C? to 100,000. That-.'3 ny guess.
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So, when did you move up there to the Industrial
Highway site after the fire at the 15th Avenue
site?
When we first moved up there? We mostly or
they mostly dug holes and dumped your — dumped
the acids and the caustic and the cyanide and
stuff, and thinners was put back and stored until
X was working on setting up a dock and pit and
vacuum tanks and stuff to where we could draw
the thinners out of the drum, and after we got
the operation going, we had four or five 20,000
gallon tanks that we were storing our better
thinner in. The bigger 20,000 gallon tank we
had sold a little bit not too much, and the rest
of it was going on the ground.
When was the pit installed in the back side of
that tract with the filter bed?
Right after the fire.
Right after the fire at the 15th Avenue site?
Right.
Okay. Ths tanks in which you were storing the
better grade solvents, were they above ground or
;,'«.::•-• the" ojctrerae east or west?
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West side, yes.
And that had better grade?
Thinner.
Flammable material?
Uh-huh.
At this time, were any materials being received
or stored at the 15th Avenue site?
No. They were still burnt when we first moved
over.
V!sre you subsequently involved then in the
separation of solvents for resale at the Industrie
Highway site?
Kot whan we first moved there, we weren't set
up to dump it.
Okay, How long did it take to do that?
wo were still in the process when it burnt.
Okay. How long did it take you then to get the
Industrial Highway site operational, approximately
Ue ware partially -- we were partially operating
after, I think, it took me about a month and a
half »;o get the docks and the tanks and every-
thing in it. We was under partial operation
and they're thinnars.
licre there buildings on the premises?
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0 What was the building, if any?
a. It was a big office building and garage.
0. And what was kept in there, if anything?
a. Cyanide.
Q. How did you know it was cyanide?
a. Because it said it on the drums.
B They were stored separately from other material?
A. 7hat section there was, yes.
Q. Was sone cyanide labeled drums on the eastern
side of the site across the fence?
a. Yes, straight out where the old garage used to
be.
P. Any materials buried in the ground on Industrial
Highv/.'.v site?
A. Yes.
Q. What was buried in the ground?
A, Cyanide, acids, tank wash, caustics, thinnera.
0. Where was that done?
A. All over.
Qi How big an area was dug up to have material be
burie.-l at that tine?
,\ Approximately 100 foot — 150 foot or 100 foot
:.-?rti: of the buildinc;, .ill the way back. 100
_oot :-or-ih of the building south, there was
nothing buried.
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And whose instructions was this done on?
Ernest Dellart.
Did he physically go out to the places where he
wanted the pit dug or stored?
Yes, hin and Myron.
Uyron was your supervisor at that site?
No. He wasn't my supervisor. He was laborer
foreman.
O}cay . What was your position at that site?
Maintenance.
Well, then did you have any part in the digging
of these sites and burying of equipment — I mean,
burying of the chemicals as the maintenance man?
As an operator, I was told to dig holes, yes.
Okay. Who told you to dig the holes?
Ernest DaHart.
Ernest rather than Myron?
Ernest -- Myron didn't tell me anything. Ernest
gave ir.y orders.
Ha told you the specific location for the hole?
He designed it and told me, and all I did was
:'!ig th™ hole when the material comes. When I
-:/ia li'atarial, I an w.-ilking about construction
.>.bri3.
i'hr.t construction ci.'ilri.s?
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ft. In the filter bed.
Q. Oh, that's for the filter bed, but other holes
where things to be dug, he pointed that out?
A. Yes, he pointed that out.
(X Would you make the decisions specifically on
the construction site of what was to be put in
the hole?
K Yes.
£ Who nade the holes?
/\ Myron and the laborers.
Q. You covered it up?
;.. Yes.
t Did thore come a. time when there was a fire at
!5200 Industrial Highway?
?:, Pardon?
0. Vlould there cos-.e a time when there was a fire
at 5900 Industrial Highway site?
?. Yes.
Q. Do you know how that happened?
R. Yec.
r. And ho-.; did that happen, sir?
A. •- -..Tsc cutting -- we had an open thinner sludge
y: t Eovcn foot wide, 2!) foot .long right nest to
... big tank, upright tank 30 foot up, and 1 was
cittir:'.; a i\ol3 on top of that; tank, and the far
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slag fell from my torch down into the thinner
pit.
And what happened?
She caught fire.
And what did you do?
Well, I was one side of the tank, and I managed
to get across the other side and climb down the
ladder and take off.
Was anyone hurt in the fire?
No.
Lucky.
Very. I might have fell in the middle of it.
I-'y Isdder slipped.
At whose instructions were you cutting the hole?
Ernest DeHart.
'/as he on the site?
You.
Specifically directing you with the activity
you were involved in?
Yes, sir. I begged him not to do it, but he
anict !>c careful. I've been going up there three
or four wee^n in advance because they had started
in <iuiv;jing before I htid the site ready, and I
;r.\r. (loi'\-j cutting .?nd welding and the ground
v-;- cr.tchinc; or, firn because he was dumping that
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A.
0
water and lacquer thinner right over the dock.
It wasn't going into no pits. It was going right
on top of the ground, and I told him three or
four before that the grounds was catching on
fire and we could no longer do it, but he said
do it, and he was signing the checks.
Did you have any fire equipment on the 5900
Industrial Highway site?
Yes.
What did you have?
A little old fire extinguisher. We had a little
acetylene tank, and then we had a little cylinder
with the chemical in it on a set of wheels.
The fire rapidly exceeded the building rather
than to be extinguished?
Pardon?
The fire rapidly exceeded the ability of that
little thing to do it?
Yes.
Before you could get down to the ladder to do it,
the firo was beyond that ability of that fire
extinguisher?
Yes.
Did you have any fire extinguisher equipment
at the 15th Avenue sito?
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NO.
None at all?
No.
Any water available there?
No.
Any water or hydrants available in the immediate
vicinity of the Industrial Highway site?
Yes, over at the airport.
But you had no hoses or water hookups on your
site?
No. We had a water hose — a little old garden
hose we had on the dock. That's all the water
we had on the dock.
Why did you cut a hole on the top of that tank?
To put a fold gate in.
What was the purpose of the tank?
That was going to be good thinner. We were
going to take it and suck into the vacuum tank,
and when the vacuum tank was full, we put it
up there for settling.
For settling?
Uh-huh.
Were you going t.o get the settled material out
in the truck?
We were going to sludge the bottom to the tank
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Q.
A.
A.
CX
A.
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and let the sludges run to another tank that was
buried.
Is that the one that caught fire?
No, that was an open sludge pit.
Okay. After the fire began at the Industrial
Highway site, did you then return to the 15th
Avenue site?
No. Not undo Midco, no.
What happened then?
I moved to Kentucky. See, I lived there permanent:
I lived there, and burned my home too.
You lived on the site?
Yes.
What did your home consist of?
An old house trailer.
Did you live there with anyone or by yourself?
My wife.
You moved then to Kentucky?
Yes.
Did there come a time when you returned to this
area?
Yes.
When was that?
When Industrial Tectonics took over. Now, the
date I'm not for sure. It must be in '77 the
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1 latter, as it is in the fall. So, it was around,
2 I believe, November of '77.
3 gi How did you learn of this?
A. Ron Crouch came down and got me.
0 How did he learn about this?
A. He was in with Ernie, and he knew Ernie was sell-
ing it and they wanted me to run the plant.
fr What was Mr. Crouch's connection with Ernie DeHart'
A. He was dispatcher and setting office all the time.
ft What office is that?
A. In Ernie's office trailer.
& At the site?
A. Yes.
Q. Was hs employed by them then at the Industrial
Highway site?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he employed by them at the 15th Avenue site?
A. Yes.
& And he performed the same functions there?
ft. Yes.
(J. Did he participate in the handling of any chemicalit
at the- site?
A. Decisions or manually handle their.?
& Manually handle then or digging holes?
f.. No.i
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He didn't do any of the labor associated with
dumping chemicals on the ground or make —
No.
Did he make any managerial decisions on that?
No. Be just dispatched the truck.
Would you direct the tank trucks to where they
would be dumped on the ground?
No.
Who did that?
Myron and Ernie.
That is it? Both sites?
Both sites.
Was Ernie DeHart still operating the site at
15th Avenue whan you came back to Indiana?
Yes.
And who was employed by him at that time on that
site, if you know?
I believe, Ron was still with him. Mitchell was
driving, and Myron and a couple of laborers was
doing the unloading, and Jim Justman.
What was Mr. Justman's function?
Maintenance.
Well, you weren't working for DeHart then. Was
Mr. Justman under your direction or control?
Ho. I worked! with him.
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You worked with him. Where did you work with him?
At the Industrial Highway.
Industrial Highway set up?
And 15th Avenue when I came back, I worked for
about two weeks.
So, oh, you did work for Mr. DeHart?
After I came back.
When you came back from Kentucky.
Yes. And then it changed over to Intec.
And who did you discuss your employment with at
Intec?
Al Tenny.
And where did this discussion take place?
By-Products Management.
And who else was present, if you remember?
In all probability Rollie Einkle. I'm not sure
if I know.
VTho is Rollie Hinkle?
He's foreman at By-Products.
Are you familiar with a Harold Eagan?
Yes.
Did ho have anything to do with your retention
or employment by Industrial Tectonics?
Well, Harold Eagan vaE salesman or he had some --
Harold Eagan was -- I don't really know what
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his -- I guess, he was a salesman for By-Products.
Harold Eagan is one I talked a lot to.
What insturctions were you given by anybody con-
corning the operation by Intec?
Who did I go to for orders?
Yes.
All three of them.
What all three?
Al Tenny, Chuck Licht( and Harold Eagan.
And what instructions, if any, were you given
on operating that site?
One instruction I was given was I was told —
I was told to clean it up the best I knew how,
and all decisions that I thought tha way it
should be handled was approved by all three.
What do you mean by that?
By Tenny, Chuck Licht, and Harold W. Eagan.
Who did you have working for you out there at
the site?
V7ell, it was still a big change over. The first
week I had employees coining in —- I don't even
remember -- from the last week to get their
chocks. They was submitted, you know, I had
Raymond, Loon Lups, or Lupe Leor. and John Leon.
Later on I!yron carae back over, and my son worked.
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Q. And who is your son, sir?
A. Michael Robinson.
Q. And where is he today?
A. He's in Kentucky.
Q. Whereabout in Kentucky?
fl. Crofton, Kentucky.
C- What was the operation of this site by Intec?
A. By Intec, we tried to go as much as legal. We
dumped into the big tanks on top. We had two
scrap haulers from Riverdale dried out and
vacuumed trucks and taken to C.I.D. and dispose
of it.
0 What did you do with the solvent you sold or
reclaimed?
S. There is a waste material. The solvent and
stuff — the better solvent went to an outfit
in Minnesota. By-Products picked it up, and
where they went, I really don't know. I didn't
make out the bills or anything.
Qi Did you send solvents to O'Claire, Wisconsin?
A. Wisconsin — I guess, that's where it is. In
the Minnesota area, yes, Wisconsin.
Q. Did you continue to get tank trucks at the site
with washing in them?
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Did you receive anything other than solvents or
paint solvents and paint waste and paint thinners?
Yes.
What material did you receive besides that?
All of your plating sludges, your caustics, and
acids. Now, in the change over, the old customer
started bringing in cyanide. We sent it back
with the exception of a few drums that had been
slipped in. That was the only cyanide that came
in there.
How about caustics and acids? What did you do
with those?
Ws stockpiled them.
where did you stockpile them, sir?
The northeast corner. You want me to call the
name of the company?
Yes.
The northeast corner of Blaine Avenue which would
be Vie Kirsen's property.
Across Blaine?
Yes.
That was done by material received by Intec?
Ir.tec, yes, sir.
Who O.id you discuss the placing of tho acids,
c M u s tics?
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<S3
Chuck Licht.
Ha knew they were there?
Yes.
And he told you to put them over there?
Yes.
Did he indicate what they were going to do with
those materials?
Eventually, they were going to try to neutralize
them.
And the plating sludee and plating waste, where
were they put?
With the acids.
Were the acids kept next to the caustics?
Ye.", all stored together.
In what kind of containers were they in?
In steel plastic lined drums.
Can you tell me what drums in that picture were
received by Intoc?
All these drums were received by Intec (indicating!
When you say, "all these", you know there are
a large number of burnt druirs on the ground.
Mo, exclude the burnt drums. Now, here -- this
zirea had fihout four, 5, COO drums that we inherited
frori Kidco -- well, I cleaned up all of Midco's
drums. Thics side was cleaned at one time (indicat ng
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It was actually cleaned with the exception of
the burnt drums. These drums that is on the
site now accumulated after the fire at CID
(indicating).
These drums down here in the southwest — south-
east corner of the site, were drums received
under the management of Intec?
I mads — made a wrong —
Southeast. This is the southwest corner.
These drums right in here (indicating) are Midco'c
and a few drums — no/ just these drums right
here (indicating). See, this straight lane is
Irtec (indicating). This straight lane is
Ir.tec, but this little area right hare is Midco
(indicating). The rest are Intec's. These drums
here are thinner drums that got about yea much
sludge (indicating). That's too heavy to send
to the reclaim and these is all that we set
back.
And these are especially acrylic resins?
Acrylic resins and some sort of plastic material.
But these piled in a. neat stack in the southeast
corner --
MR. HERMWJ: Southwest.
!'.R. BAKER: Q -- southvast corner of the
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{X
A.
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sits, were received thsre by Intec and stored
by Intec?
Yos. They are drums that we poured what thinner
we could out and the drums were still too heavy
to ship to Acme Barrel, and we stored them back
there. We eventually were going to get a deheader
and ship the solid material out.
V'sre your immediate superiors aware of what those
cirums consisted of?
Yes, sir.
And who personally knew what those drums con-
sisted of?
Chuck Licht.
How about Mr. Tenny?
Yes.
7>.nd how about Ilr. Eagan?
Well, Mr. Eagan left — I don't know what day.
I don't know how long he was there. He wasn't
there too long. He left. When Eagan left, there
was the site was claaned up. We was still in
operation, and when Eagan left, I can't even start
to get — let's see. This is -- it might have
bear, later part of '78 or first pa.rt of '79 that
JKileft, a.iC thr; site- was cleaned up. All the
drums that Kiclco had put in there and all thr>
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4C
drums that Intec had took in was cleaned because
I was sending out more drums than X was taking
in.
Q. This was when, air?
A. This is latter part of '78 or — no, can't be
that. Must be later part of '77 or '78.
Q. Early '78?
fl. Yes, because see, I've been gone a year and a
half. I get my dates mixed up. I do know when
Harold Eagan left, this site was fairly cleaned
up.
0. Were you able to expose of any burnt drums?
A. tic. When I say "cleaned", I mean with an exceptior
of the first drum.
0. Kow many drums do you think were left there from
the Midco operation when Intec began operation?
A. Just guessing, four, five thousand.
Q. And did you decant or otherwise dispose of those
other drums, intact drums, that Kidco had left
you?
ft. Yes. I had disposed of what Midco had left us
plus I had disposed of what we had took in up
until the tine of the fire.
G. The fj.ro at this ---
A. With the exceptior. of whet we had taken in in
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&
A.
&
A.
Qi
A.
0-
A,
aA.
ft
A.
&
A.
0-
A.
&
A.
o.A.
caustics, acids, and your plating sludges at
no time hava we ever disposed of.
Do you know what company supplied you with
caustics, sludges?
What company?
Yes. What company?
Rozerna.
And where is that company?
Michigan.
And were those brought down directly by their
drivers or was that material --
Yes, sir.
That would be Rozema drivers?
Yes, sir.
Ware any of the materials received from anybody
else?
Yes, sir.
Who?
Approved.
Pardon me?
Approved Industrial Disposal.
Where are thoy?
Mi-higan.
Bo you knov; whore in Michigan?
He, I dor.'t.
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ft Do you know where Rozema is located?
A. Hudson.
& Do you know how to spell that?
A. H-u-d-E-o-n.
Q. no not Hudson, Rozema.
K R-o-z-e-m-a.
& And Approved ie in --
A. Michigan.
Q. In what city?
A. Ilo, I don't — don't know what city.
0 What kind of operation did they run?
A. They pick up — that is Industrial Disposal —
Approved Industrial Disposal,
6 Anybody alse supply you with that material that
you segregated on the east si<3e of Blainc Street?
A. With the exception of getting a few drums here
and there from paint companies, that was the
raain two suppliers.
Q. Mow, the intact drums that are on there are
basically paint th.inners, paint solvents, flammabl
natter that went up in the last two fires that
lirnie DeHart had, is that correct?
A. '71';!i ihs exception cf a few. Mow, there are a
fi';:\; hero a:\d there,
p. O"-.,ny. This is thevhole pile over here with
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the plastic which is soraewhat different (indicatin
is that right? This curved —
A. This came from Caxle headed for. Now, there
are some drums in here that contain cyanide in
there that's Hidco, and maybe one or two or a
few that came in on the change over.
Q. 17here is the cyanide now?
A. Right here (indicating) .
Q. And how raany drums are involved in that?
S. Maybe — probably 79, 80 drums.
ft Does >'.T, Licht know about the cyanide?
a. The only thing Mr. Licht knows about the cyanide
is that we got the ona load in. There was a
h-.33le there. We got a loac! in, and I called,
I believe, Harold S.igan was there. And Harold
Eagnn and Al Tenny sent the load back. So, the
load came back about three or four months later
with a name sort of painted over on a different
bill of lading. It was marked as a different
material.
£t And it was accepted or returned?
A. They -A'as acoeptsd the last time.
Q. Th-sr. ::.r,n't the material you refarrad to as being
••„• ytin~U1 o drums on that site?
a. Do whai?
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That isn't the material you had pointed out
here as being cyanide for Midco here, is it?
No, no — yes, most o.f this is -- see, I cleaned.
this area up, and the stuff I couldn't dump,
I went back and restocked and most of it is
now -- Chuck Licht did not taks cyanide in, as
you know. If you call him up, you see, we got
a load of cyanide, Chuck Licht won't take it.
This is part of the stuff that was
1-sf t over by Midco (indicating) , and some, I
think, vat; cyanide. It wasn't -- night not
even be cyanide. I'm not a chemist, and also
isoive cyanide in that area right there, right
here (indicating).
J.-jain, it was labalifl cyanide?
Cyanido, yes. It's labeled the same as those
drums over at Industrial Highway.
MR. HERMAN: There is some cyanide in
the northeast corner?
THE WITI-JESS: Northeast corner, yes. They
always -- some insecticides in there.
••'"'.. BAKER: Q Where did they come from?
i:u':y rd'.re o'»: from Kichigavi . See, we had skids
o..~ lij. cr bo ••;?:•! ,'nu1. car ":O::<:JK /inr. stuff sitting
a \j c •:•.? r t'ii •„< i> 1 a c e .
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& That was prior to the fire?
A. Pardon?
Q. That was prior to the fire?
A. No. It must have been after the fire. These
weren't burned -- took in after the fire at
15th Avenue.
Q. Sut that wasn't under Mr. Licht?
A. No.
MR. BERMAN: That's on the site now.
MR. 3AKEK: Q How do you know pesticides
are in there?
.X It says pesticides, and I don't know — I can
shov you they're right in that area there
(indicating), Mr. -- virgin, all virgin material
pure acid3, insecticides, pesticides. It's
hare, to get in there. It's sort of covered up,
but all this material was scattered all out of
the place, and I went in that back -- in this
area (indicating) with a dozer or truck driver
or whatever, backed over it with a dozer.
C ."-.̂ ything in these verticle -- these pits above
cjrour.c on the tenhs?
?• (,'£:•-••.= '-C be.
C. Trio: to tht: f.-LreV
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What was put in them after the fire?
There was a cheap low-grade thinner in the south
tank there about six to 8,000 gallons, and this
tank about 6,000 (indicating) because it was
hardly full — 8500 tank and that was full of
thinner and thinner sludges.
That's the little one?
Yes.
And the big one was full of caustics and jet
fuel?
The same. That's in the tank dock.
Was jet fuel coining into your operation under
Mr. Licht?
Yes.
What form?
Bulk.
In bulk tank trucks?
Yes.
From whom was that coming?
Ro zema.
And what was done with that?
That was dumped into her tank on top, and then
we drawed that out and took it to ;JD and
disposed of it. I first caid -- we didn't have
no tank come in. I thin!., you asked the question
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if it was dumped on the ground. I don't re-
member. But the tank truck -- it's a little
vacuum. It wasn't a tank truck. It was a vacuum -
a single actual vacuum truck about how many gallon!
I believe 1500, 2,000. The vacuum truck would
come off and the vacuum and scrap haulers would
come in and haul it to CID.
That was jet fuel?
No, caustics with traces of jet fuel in it. It's
caustic wash where they wash jet fuel tanks
somewhere.
And that came from Rozeir.a?
Rozema.
But isn't this the sama tanks you used for the
solvents you were recovering?
Yes.
How would you --
They always scheduled me. I know, when it comes
in, I would schedule scrap haulers to draw me
all out, and I would be empty to where they
could put it in r.y tanks because I would have
to dig up the sludges that was solidifed in
the bottom of t:~. s tan):.
How did you get them sut?
Sucked it out wi-h a vacuum track.
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& And where would you take those?
A. Scrap haulers took it to CID.
Q. How did they carry it there, in dump trucks?
A. No, in vacuum trucks.
Q. That's how it got out by the waste hauler trucks,
or did you vacuum out of your own truck other —
A. Ho, they had their own vacuum tanks.
0. Is there any water at this site at 15th Avenue?
A. No.
Q Any hydrants or hose, some water lines on the
property?
A. No.
& Now, you indicated that Mr. Kirsch or sortie of
his employees were paid for filling this area
and providing over where drums were dumped.
Did they see the drums when they filled the
area? Were the drums visible?
A. I don't know. The driver would have to see it.
Other than that, I don't know.
Q How was he paid by, chack or cash?
A. I believe by check.
Q. By Mr. DeHart?
A. Kidco.
0. Do you know V7hat bank fiidco has a bank account
at?
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They have a couple of banks. They had Mercantile
there in Hessville.
Mercantile Bank?
In Hessville.
Any other bank?
He moved -- he changed his bank right after
the fire, and I don't know which one. I didn't
remember which one of our checls were on then.
This all through the time period before the
fire in 1976?
Right.
Okay. When did you see Mr. Clisiak over
there?
That had to be -- I just have to guess on this
because I don't really have anything to refresh
my memory there. Probably in '77 -- '77 or '78.
I don't -- I really don't know.
Okay. What was your contact with Mr. Clisiak
at this time?
With the exception of -- he shot rae -- he
wanted to know what all that stuff was on his
property.
You mean, you got the idea that r.c one ever
authorized to use his land there?
Mo, sir.
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Qi You believed he had not, is that correct?
a. No, sir. Yes, I believe, he had not.
0 Okay.
A. No, he got pretty hostile with me. Intec
don't have anything there on his property.
Qi Intec didn't put anything on his land?
A. No.
Q. Any of the workers at either these two sites, at
any site, become iltraceable to tho chemicals
on the drums or on the ground or anybody
burned or what have you from ?
A. No, just got a little hot.
Q. Never eat away any of your clothing or shoes?
fl. Yes.
Q. Whose shoss?
A. Well, mine. Not all my clothes got holes, but
in the bridges and legs and where I walked
through that stuff at night, I have to clean
around the pipe or something and, you know,
the stuff gets on, you know; and Myron, he
spit caustics on him and burned his leg.
Q. Did he have to go to the hospital or seel;
medical attention?
R. Yes. I had a few eye injuries, but they was
all minor. Ona guy -•- lacquer film, you know,
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them drums when they fill up when the sun
shines, they build up pressure and they
took the build off and he shot up and got
an eye injury. I had one guy that got,
named Dick he got some leg injuries, but
he was on Midco property; and he fell and
hurt his leg on one of those drums back
there I showed of Midco.
That is this area right here (indicating)?
No, this area right here (indicating).
There was a few drums there before the fire.
I'm showing you Exhibit 1. Was Intec res-
ponsible for any of the material down
here east of Blaine Street and sort of
the southeast of the corners of that
picture?
In the south -- in the extreme southeast is
Midco for about 75 foot, and from there
on to the small tank is Intec.
And what is the material in there that's being
just identified?
There are some acids in there and, I think,
it's mostly thinnerr. and paint sludges.
Khy is it over there as opposed to being
with the rest of the Intec nsterial?
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Well, the way the plant was run, and it
depended on the availability of the area
where we unloaded the truck. Some of
this stuff was unloaded off a truck, and
the truck may have had a two-part load, and
we put it there. And then we would eventually —
brought it down into the acid area where
we have the acid area and other material.
You have any training with any of your
employees with the proper handling of acid
material?
A seminar. After Intec was closed,
no.
After Intec was closed?
Yes.
You went to a seminar?
Yes.
Where was that?
That was out at Ripley Street at the —
I believe, Howard Johnson or Holiday Inn --
south there on 51. It was a motel just south
of the expressway on 51.
MR. DEAN MILLER: That's Ramada.
THE WITNESS: It might be.
MR. BAKER: Q Is that Portage?
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Lake Station.
Do you know a Steve Hartel?
Yes.
Kow long have you knowi him?
Four, five years.
How did you have occasion to meet him?
Through Ernie.
What was Ernie's association with him?
Ernie bought U.S. Drums on contract.
What is U.S. Drum?
That's Steve Martel's -- he owns U.S. Drum.
What is U.S. Drun? Where is it located
and what does it do?
It used to be over here on -- right over
here by this steel corapany there. Wait,
let me think a minute. It's on Torrence
Avenue just across — it's right next to
the boat docks there. Torrence Avenue
just south of Ford City. That's where it
used to be, I think. And then he's got
oorae property just north of the old Midco
site, 15th Avenue.
Hartel does?
YSE.
And Ernie was buying this on contract?
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1 A. Not the property, no.
2 0- The business?
3 A. The business, yes.
4 Q. And what does his business do?
5 A. Dispose of thinners and waste chemicals.
6 fr Did they have a still?
7 A. Steve Martel?
8 ft Yes.
9 A. Did they have a still there? No.
10 Q. Apparatus?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did that deal fall through, if you know?
13 A. Yes.
14 & And did it fall through?
15 A. Yes.
16 0- When was that?
17 A, That had to be around the latter part of
18 '76 or the first part of '77. It was
19 in and around the first fire. Ernie
20 bought the U.S. Drum business customers on
21 contract for little over $100,000. Steve
22 Martel is pretty sly. So, he got him
23 a funny contract drav/ad up not binding.
24 So, r.rnio went to bin after he
25 paid $100,000 -- now, the way he -- Steve
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Martel collected his $100,000. Ernie went
out and picked up all these drums, but
he didn't get paid or he didn't bill the
customers. Steve Martel billed the cus-
tomers, and then he give Ernie a percentage
of this money and the other percentage
went to Steve Martel on the contract. So,
he ended up paying him $100,00 and he
kept on paying off his percentage; and
he wouldn't sign a legal contract or give
Ernie the customers. So, he went back
into business for himself taking a lot
of the customers back. All these drums
that burned on this property was tool;
in during this time.
Which property, Midco one or the --
Midco one and two. See, Ernie when he
first started out, he just had three or
four, five customers — very few customers
until he got out with the Kartel and
bought out U.S. Drura and then that's when
all those truckloads cone in and -- because
Steve Martel had quite a few customers.
The placn on 9th Avenue, Ernie never had
nothing to do. He stored their, on his own
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and he took the customers back, I think.
& 9th Avenue, where?
& 9th Avenue in Gary just straight north
of that site there.
& That's Martel's operation?
A. Yes, sir.
B What is your present employment?
a. Paul's Auto Yard.
Q. I'm sorry. You did tell me. I apologize.
Do you know what business Mr.
DeHart is in now?
A. He used to run a surplus in Marion, but I
don't think that's no longer -- U.S. Army
Surplus.
0- How do you know that employees of Mr. Kirsch
did the fill over there at the Midco site
on 15th Avenue?
A. Name on the door.
0 What name was that?
A. Red Top, Vie Kirsch. I think, it was Red
Top and then went to Vie Kirsch.
Q. VJere you at the site last week when Mr.
Kirsch's employees wore out there?
A. Yes, sir.
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5 Any of them the same people you had saw at the
site?
A. They came over to get their money?
6 Yes.
A. Ho, not that I know. No.
OL It's the same type of equipment — same
makings?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you observe when you were
out there at the site?
A. Well, I was on the way down 15th when I
went to get parts, and I seen this loader
in the northeast corner.
And I was in a hurry so I went
to Indiana Central, and I was going to stop
and tell the operator not to get in it
on my way back.
Well, on my way back, I seen the
smoke into it from Cline Avenue.
So, I knew he was into it. So,
I went straight in to Paul's Auto Yard,
and I called Vie Kirsch.
And I got a hold of a receptionist,
and I tried to find out who was the immediate
foreman or supervisor of the work over there.
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They first denied that they ware
working over there, but I said, "You got
your names on the loader."
They said, "Oh, wait a minute,"
and they shipped me from department to
department.
So, finally the last guy I
talked to — there was cyanide and acids
and paint sludges and dangerous chemicals
there they were working on.
They weren't going to get someone
poisoned or blow the place up. So, they
said, "well, they would pass it on to the
right department."
Did you get the names of the people you
talked to?
Pardon?
Did you get the names of anybody you talked
to?
Ho, I didn't.
So, then about -- well, I stopped
there two or three times.
Onco was to warn O1Connor that
there v.-as some bad fuucs because the wind
was coining out of the north. It was hovering
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the ground.
That there was some bad fumes that
they ought to be careful, and then I run
into this guy here (indicating).
Q. By "this guy here", you mean Michael Herman?
A. Yes.
And he said — I told him what
was in the area. And so, I went out into
yard and came back and there was an operator
and truck driver standing there, and there
was one supervisor there. I don't know
what his name was or nothing, and I told
the operator and truck drivers, I said,
"Whatever you do, don't stand downwind be-
cause this stuff will kill you; and it
will also blow up right in your face."
I told him — told the truck
driver this and supervisor that was in the/
you know, standing there listening, and he
said, "Well, we don't have time," and he
drove away.
So, I said, "okay." I says,
"That's" -- I said "I'm not telling you
what to do. I'm just trying to tell you
it's dar.gnrous v.'hat you're doing."
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0.
A.
Where did the solvents go that you couldn't
sell at the operations connected by Intec?
CID.
Is there a swampy area back north of
this site?
Yes.
You mean, at the present time?
Yes.
Its a little high spot for three or four
hundred feet, and then way on the back
there is another swampy area.
And then it gets high again
and then there is a street there, and
then back by Martel, it's swampy.
Did Midco dump anything in that swamp?
No, not that far back. Ho.
MR. BAKER: Okay. That's all.
Do you want a chance to read this
and sign it, or do you want it to be filed
without your signature?
THE PITKHSS: It doesn't make any
difference .
KP. . BAKER: I think, we'll give you the
opportunity to sign it to make sure what
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she's taken down is accurately reflected
on what you said.
THE WITNESS: Well, there could be a
little difference in dates and stuff.
MR. BAKER: I understand that. We've
got down what you said here. I understand
your memory to date may be a little off.
Okay.
(Witness excused.)
(Further deponent saith not.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
T, Brenda J. Cueller, being a qualified andcompetent court reporter, and being first duly authorizedto administer said oath, do hereby certify there appearc dbefore roe at 507 State Street, Hammond, Indiana, on the4th day of January, 1980, the deponent, MERLIN DALEROBINSON, who was thereupon first duly sworn by me totestify the truth and nothing but the truth in responseto questions propounded to said deponent at the takingof the foregoing deposition, relating to the abovecaptioned cause now pending and undetermined in saidcourt.
I further certify that I then and there re-ported in machine shorthand the testimony so given atsaid time and place, and that the testimony was thenreduced to typewriting from my original shorthand notesand the foregoing typewritten transcript is a true andcorrect record of said testimony given at said time andplace.
I further certify that reading by tha witnessand signature to the deposition was waived by theparties on the record.
<j . Dated at Hanimond, Indiana, on this, 1980.
day
rJ. O g.S.R.