Design & Access Statement for

proposed conversion of existing

RAF Association club to residential

use as 14 flats with rear first floor

extension at:

Norfolk House,

No. 6 Spa Road,

Gloucester,

GL1 1UZ

Prepared By:

Angela Wadley MCIAT

Total Design Ltd

2 Court Lane

Newent

Glos.

GL18 1AR

December 2011

T866

Contents:Contents:Contents:Contents:

1. Introduction

2. Site Context and Surrounding

3. Existing Building (Norfolk House (Grade 2 Listed Building)

4. Existing skittle alley and toilet facilities extensions to rear.

5. Amount

6. Layout

7. Scale

8. Design

9. Access

10. Landscaping

11. Sustainability

12. Waste Management

13. Flood Risk

14. Ecology

15. Planning Policy / Conclusion

16. Photos External & Internal general 17. Photos Crossed reference to drawing T866.01A

18. Appendix

18.01 History Statement 18.02 Norfolk House listing text 18.03 Birds eye views of site

Design and Access Statement

ProposalProposalProposalProposal: : : : Conversion of existing RAF Association club to residential use as 14 flats with rear first floor extension.

Location:Location:Location:Location: Norfolk House, No. 6 Spa Road, Gloucester, GL1 1UZ

Our Reference:Our Reference:Our Reference:Our Reference: T866 1.1.1.1.0000 IntroductionIntroductionIntroductionIntroduction 1.1 This design and access statement is prepared in accordance of the Town and Country

Planning (General Development Procedures Order) (England) Order 2006 and will address

the design principles and concepts that have been applied to the development by reference

to:

• Context

• Amount

• Layout

• Scale

• Landscaping

• Appearance

• Access

1.2 This document is submitted in association with a full planning application for conversion of existing RAF Association club to residential use as 14 flats with rear first floor extension at Norfolk House, No. 6 Spa Road, Gloucester, GL1 1UZ.

1.3 There is a separate document which contains a Conservation Statement. This statement

addresses issues in relation to the alterations of a listed building in a conservation area under section 75 of the Planning (Listed Buildings & Conservation Areas) Act 1990.

1.4 The above document also contains a Historic statement. This document details the site and

local area history and its origins dating back to 200 years ago. See appendix for details. 1.5 This Design and Access should be read in conjunction with all other planning application

documents submitted to Gloucester City Council.

2.2.2.2.0000 Site Site Site Site ContextContextContextContext and Surroundingand Surroundingand Surroundingand Surrounding

2.1 The proposed site is within Gloucester ‘city centre’ and is located on Spa Road near the junction with Bristol Road and Southgate Street. The site is also located in the Spa conservation area. The site is currently disused and falling into a state of disrepair.

2.2 The site consists of an area of approximately 1115m². The site frontage is onto Spa Road and

the neighbouring properties are the local Job Centre (Cedar House) to the left hand side and a new build block of flats approximately 5 years old to the north/west side. There are also major shopping retail outlets to the north.

2.3 The site is level from front (North East) to rear (South West). The existing site boundaries are

marked with brickwork walls at varying heights.

2.4 The site currently consists of the main Norfolk house, (6 Spa Road) building at the front with a large vehicular access to the left hand side. Norfolk House is a 3 storey Grade 2 listed building with basement original to the site (see appendix for building listing text), however it was extended in approximately 1960’s/1970’s with a large single and two storey extension to the rear. These extensions are completely screened by Norfolk House from Spa Road (see drawings T866.01A & T866.02A).

2.5 Norfolk House, 6 Spa Road was last used as the RAF Association Club, its first members enrolled in 1948 and the doors closed after 60 years of history in March 2010. 30 years ago it was thriving and you would not be able to park or get a seat. At the end fewer than 30 members attended the club and it could not pay its way in the 21

st Century. The various

internal structures of the buildings have been opened up and altered numerous times to provide an adequate area for the clubs and associated kitchens / bars etc. The existing rear extensions were used as a skittle alley/function room and the upper floor incorporated the clubs toilet facilities.

2.6 The rear extensions to Norfolk house are not of a poor quality standard and they appear fully

adequate for conversion; however they are severely dated and are an eyesore on the

surrounding area. These extensions currently lack the aesthetically pleasing properties of the

original Norfolk House building and are of no architectural or historical importance.

2.7 We have consulted with Peter Goodhind Assoc (Structural Engineers) who have made a

preliminary site visit to confirm that our proposals are feasible in adapting the existing rear

concrete roof structure.

2.8 Overall the aim of the proposal is to upgrade existing redundant buildings and enhance the

appearance that is currently an eyesore. The objective is to improve the site and enhance the

surrounding area whilst having no detrimental effect on the conservation area.

See following page for Location Map of the site in terms of its local amenities.

2.9 Location Map

This location road map

shows the surrounding

public transport, car

parks, shopping areas

and health care

facilities in relation to

the application site.

The site is within

walking distance from

bus stops and is local

to Gloucester bus and

train station.

Gloucester’s foremost

shopping/retail areas

such as Gloucester

Quays and the City

Centre are of close

proximity to the

proposal site.

Gloucestershire Royal

Hospital is within an

accessible distance

via both car or public

transport.

3.03.03.03.0 Existing Building Existing Building Existing Building Existing Building ---- Norfolk HouseNorfolk HouseNorfolk HouseNorfolk House 6 Spa Road 6 Spa Road 6 Spa Road 6 Spa Road Grade 2 Listed BuildingGrade 2 Listed BuildingGrade 2 Listed BuildingGrade 2 Listed Building fabricsfabricsfabricsfabrics

3.1 Norfolk house is a 3 storey house with a basement level. It was grade 2 listed on 12 March

1973. The building itself dated back to circa 1820 and has stuccoed brick walls with a slate

roof.

3.2 The basement level of the building is in disrepair and has recently been used for storage and

beer cellar that served the club’s bar. The basement has no features of architectural or

historical value. Proof of this can be found in basement photos in section 16.

3.3 There are 3 shadow recesses in the front external wall with sash windows to the ground, first

and second floors set within the walls. The existing sash windows also have internal

architraves / linings / cills and some shutters all of which are to be retained, overhauled and

repaired to their original appearance and redecorated white gloss.

3.4 Access to Norfolk house is via a large timber door set in an archway at the front of the

building. This existing central entrance doorway is approached by a flight of three stone steps.

The steps and doorway are a vital component of the historic building and are all to remain

unaltered.

3.5 There are some decorative cornices around ceilings at ground floor level that are to be

retained and remain unaltered. We are proposing to conceal these cornices with new

suspended ceilings to upgrade separating floors to comply with Part E & B of the building

Regulations.

3.6 There are a number of original fireplaces within the listed building. Photos are shown in

section 17 and referenced on drawing T866.01A. some fireplaces have been removed over

the years by previous owners.

3.7. There are decorative mouldings above and around the existing external and internal door

openings in the main corridor of Norfolk House at ground floor level. Both of these mouldings

are to remain unaltered and exposed. These mouldings are in the proposed communal

corridor at ground floor and retaining them preserves the original buildings character

internally.

3.8 Prior to listing in 1973 poor alterations were carried out to the ground and first floor rooms

removing fire places and walls where the rooms were once divided.

3.9 There are no internal doors of any architectural or historic value in the existing basement or

ground floor.

We have endeavoured in our design of the proposed flats to re-use as much of the existing

original fabric as possible including the internal doors. All internal historic doors to be retained

and overhauled, repaired to their original appearance. Fire protection required to upgrade

existing doors will be carried out to a specification as agreed with Cotswold Intumescents.

3.10 There is an existing stair leading from ground floor to basement that is in disrepair and will be

removed. The basement stairs have no historic value.

There is a main set of stairs in the centre of the development (to the rear of Norfolk House)

that are to be retained and upgraded to current Building regulations. Parts of these stairs are

not original to the building and are not of historic value, handrails and balustrading will be

replaced. Existing modern handrails to be removed.

There is a separate staircase leading from first to second floor that appears original to the

building. It is proposed to re-use these stairs to serve the second floor flat therefore all

aspects of the stairs including newels, balusters, handrails and strings to be carefully

overhauled and redecorated to their original appearance.

3.11 The existing roof of Norfolk House is a slate roof at approximately 30° pitch. There is evidence

of damage internally at ground, first and second floor where floors / ceilings have

disintegrated due to water ingress from the roof. With this in mind some repairs are

anticipated for the slate roof. The existing roof covering is cement fibre slates, when repairing

the roof it is proposed to replace these with natural slates.

3.12 The external walls of Norfolk house are to remain largely unaltered. It was suggested that

additional small windows would be acceptable to the conservation officer on the south east

side of the building. However we have worked around not requiring these additional windows.

There are a number of new openings required to the basement level to convert them into

living accommodation. These include 1 window with a lightwell at the front, 2 windows below

ground level to the North West elevation, and a doorway with steps rising to ground level at

the rear.

3.13 See drawing T866.01A for existing internal finishes.

4.04.04.04.0 Existing skittle alley and toilet facilities extensions to rear.Existing skittle alley and toilet facilities extensions to rear.Existing skittle alley and toilet facilities extensions to rear.Existing skittle alley and toilet facilities extensions to rear.

4.1 The extensions constructed to the rear of Norfolk house were built in approximately 1960’s -

70’s. They were last used to house the skittle alley/function room and toilet facilities for the

RAF Association club.

4.2 The extension construction is an exposed concrete and brickwork frame with blockwork and

rendered infill panels. There are existing openings in the block and render panels that have

been blocked up or boarded over. The extensions have large areas of concrete flat roof.

4.3 The extensions at ground and first floor levels are unsightly and are in need of conversion /

repair.

5555....0000 AmountAmountAmountAmount

5.1 The overall area of the existing buildings for conversion over all storeys is approximately 735

m². An extension to the rear of Norfolk House is proposed at first floor level and is

approximately 115m² is size. In our proposal the extension has been scaled down as much as

possible however the size of the proposed is necessary for its required use.

5.2 Within the existing building conversion and new first floor extension a total of 14 flats are

proposed.

5.3 2 flats will be situated in the converted basements of Norfolk House both with a separate

access via external steps.

5.4 2 flats are to be within the ground floor of Norfolk House, these flats will be accessed by the

existing main front door. Also at ground level there are to be 4 flats to the rear of Norfolk

House in the converted ground floor extension (previously the skittle alley). All of the rear flats

will have their own individual access via a front door from the existing car parking areas

5.5 There are a total of 5 flats at first floor level. 2 of these flats are within the existing Norfolk

House shell and are accessed from the internal staircase running though the centre of the

building. There is a first floor flat that is situated within the existing extension to Norfolk House

at first floor; this flat is also accessed by the main existing internal stairs.

5.6 2 further flats are to be constructed within the new first floor extension. These will be

accessed via a new communal internal staircase.

5.7 Finally there will be one more flat at second floor level. This flat is accessed by the existing

internal staircases running through the centre of Norfolk House. This top flat will be used by

our client as his residence once all work is completed.

There is also a flat roof dormer extending out of the original roof at the rear of Norfolk House

at second floor level. This dormer is at present very unsightly and it is proposed to upgrade it

by removing the flat roof and adding a new pitched roof. This will make the dormer more in

character and enhance the rear elevation of Norfolk House. We have been recommended to

incorporate small pitched dormer roofs by council planners during the design phase. See

Design section of D&A section 8. Smaller dormers was not practical, therefore with

discussion it was deemed acceptable to amend the existing dormer to provide a window

instead of a door and change the flat roof for a pitched roof.

5.8 The external works that are required in the proposal are not extensive. There will be small

areas of patio as well as grassed garden areas for most ground floor flats with areas of new

planting to enhance the external areas.

6666....0000 LayoutLayoutLayoutLayout

6.1 The layouts of the proposed flats within the existing Norfolk House building have largely been

determined by the existing structure as we have attempted in our design to keep the

alterations to a listed building to an absolute minimum. We have always looked to keep

alterations to a minimum and retain the natural flow of the building where possible,

maintaining the original room layouts.

6.2 The layouts in the flats that are proposed in the rear skittle alley extension were more flexible

as there was very little internal structure to work around, the existing concrete roof beams and

the new party walls have been positioned under existing beams for strength and stability to

support the new extension above.

6.3 In general the layouts of all new flats have been designed in such a way to provide a

comfortable modern living area for one or two people. All flats consist of a minimum of

kitchen, dining and lounge area with at least one bedroom and bathroom. Some flats are more

spacious than others (see proposed drawing for flat numbers and their areas) due to their

locations within the existing structure. We also had a meeting with a local estate agent to

gauge their opinion on layouts of flats and bedroom numbers (see design section of D&A

Section 8).

6.4 Where possible some flats have an extra bedroom and larger living areas, these flats could be

suitable for single parents or small families.

6.5 The layout of all external works is kept to a basic design with some timber fences required to

separate different garden / courtyard areas (see proposed block plan).

7777....0000 ScaleScaleScaleScale

7.1 Careful architectural consideration and pre application planning advice (see design section 8)

have gone into sizing the proposed extension and the scale of all proposed flats within the

existing buildings. We have strived to achieve the most effective use of space.

7.2 We are not proposing to add to the footprint of existing buildings, in fact it will slightly reduce

with the addition of a new first floor extension we feel this will increase the mass of the rear

extension to an acceptable level that will reduce the monotonous existing single storey

element. With the use of good quality materials this will allow a greater integration of the main

building and the new extension, allowing the building to be read as one with two distinct

halves, old and new.

7.3 The scale of all gardens / courtyards to serve flats is again largely determined by available

space to site boundary. These areas are not excessive.

8888....0000 DesignDesignDesignDesign

8.1 We have undertaken an extensive design procedure that has involved consultations with various different parties including Bob Ristic of Gloucester City Planning and Charlotte Lewis a conservation officer at Gloucester City Council. As a result we have aimed to incorporate all planning and conservation opinions within our design.

We have also consulted the Highways department and a local Estate Agent for additional

professional opinions on the proposal (see below).

8.2 The main idea for our design was to upgrade the existing rear extension to Norfolk House and extend above it whilst making very little subtle upgrades to the listed Norfolk House building where required. We had initially explored the use of an external staircase and balcony / walkway to access the flats created in the first floor extension to the rear. There was also a roof balcony externally on the existing flat roof. We created a pitched roof over the new extension with dormer windows to both the extension and to Norfolk house. We put together a sketch design to gauge planning opinion. Upon conservations and meetings with the Bob Ristic and taking on board recommendations we determined from the original sketch design that:-

• The roof should be lowered. This was to lower the mass of the overall extension so that it would not compete with the listed building. It was the shared opinion of the planners and us that the top of the roof line be kept below the eaves of the existing listed building.

• The external staircase / balcony and walkway were not deemed acceptable as they were deemed too discordant from the rest of the design. We were advised to explore the use of an internal staircase to access first floor flats.

• Our external facades should incorporate simpler finishes to give the upgraded and new extensions to the rear a modern feel.

• The transition between ground and first floor areas externally should appear seamless and natural in their appearance so as to ensure the extension at first floor does not look disproportionate.

• Any dormer windows to the existing building needed to be small and not have a detrimental effect on the visual appearance of the listed building.

During our correspondence between the planning department and conservation officer it became apparent that the proposed scheme would need to appear as two elements. The first would be the careful and minimal upgrades to the listed Norfolk house, leaving the majority of the existing fabric unaltered where possible and ensuring there were no obvious changes to its appearance.

The second element was the upgraded and extended buildings to the rear of Norfolk House that were to look modern in design with a major overhaul of the existing appearance required. The proposals for the upgrading of the existing unsightly extensions were also looked upon favourably by the conservation officer as they would enhance its appearance greatly. We were recommended to create a visual break between the two aspects of the proposal by the conservation officer and planning. We were asked to use modern high quality materials on the development to the rear of Norfolk House. This visual break is also highlighted by the planning recommendation to lower the new roof structure, which helps the extended area of the build to appear much less significant than the existing building.

8.3 Further sketch proposals were put together incorporating all of the planning and conservation

points and reservations that we had gathered to date. We had decided to design a mansard type roof to ensure the overall roof height was kept to a minimum whilst also utilising maximum internal headroom. Bob Ristic reviewed the mansard roof and agreed to its appearance in principal. Charlotte Lewis also found the mansard roof to be an acceptable proposal in conservation terms.

8.4 In terms of our proposed external appearance we have used a natural slate / GRP roof finish

with natural slate hanging to external walls to give a modern sleek finish. The existing rear extension has a new render painted to match existing Norfolk house to upgrade its unsightly appearance. We feel this will greatly enhance the buildings to the rear of Norfolk house.

8.5 The new windows and doors to the rear of Norfolk House are to be powder coated aluminium

frames. This will help to further the modern feel of the rear buildings. The few new windows required to Norfolk house will be of a high quality timber and painted

and decorated to match the existing windows. 8.6 When considering the external layouts/parking and design we consulted Christopher Rose of

Gloucestershire County Council Highways (due to xmas break we have not received a reply to date. The external works have been designed to serve the proposed flats with some parking spaces, bin storage, communal and private gardens, patio areas and new accesses to flats (see block plan for full external design).

8.7 During the design phase we also had a meeting with a local Estate Agent Naylor Powell to

gauge their opinion on the appropriate flat designs and their sizes. We were recommended to utilise both one and two bedroom flats in our design. Also the Estate Agent was of the opinion that the flats would prove popular and be in high demand in the area if they were to be done to a high standard.

8.8 In summary we have endeavoured in our design to create aesthetically pleasing alterations

and extension to the existing buildings whilst incorporating all areas of pre-application advice

received from various professionals. We feel that the design ensures the completed buildings

will have their own character, whilst still being sympathetic to other properties within the

surrounding conservation area.

9999....0000 AccessAccessAccessAccess

9.1 The position of existing access to the site will remain. The car parking area however will be

accessed through a new low level rendered wall instead of the large industrial looking steel

gate currently on site.

9.2 As explained above the access to the converted Norfolk House will remain through existing

large front door.

10101010.0.0.0.0 LandscapingLandscapingLandscapingLandscaping

10.1 The existing brickwork walls around the site perimeter are to remain and be repaired where

necessary with the addition of railings to a height of 1800mm where required. As explained

previously the existing gravelled and tarmaced areas will be altered to incorporate gardens,

patios, bin storage etc.

10.2 There will be new separating timber fences to site boundaries as indicated on our proposed

block plan. There are also areas of new shrubs etc also indicated on block plan.

11.0 SustainabilitySustainabilitySustainabilitySustainability 11.1 The scheme involves re-using the fabric of the existing buildings on the site. Materials from

demolitions and alterations would be re-used where possible. All existing structures would be upgraded and new services installed to meet current building regulations standards, this includes Part L: Conversion of fuel and power.

11.2 Sustainable measures which are being considered in the new construction are:-

• Energy efficient light fittings to building regulation requirements.

• Zoned heating controls.

• Minimum A rating white goods – where provided.

• Low flow taps and shower.

• Salvage and re-use existing materials, where possible. 12121212....0000 Waste managementWaste managementWaste managementWaste management

12.1 The applicant will mitigate the impact of construction on the environment through the use of environmental management plans during construction and the demolition of the existing dwelling, and will;

• Set targets for minimising construction waste.

• Monitor construction waste arising.

• Segregate waste for recycling. In summary the applicant will strive to balance environmental, social and economic issues with a view to contributing to a more sustainable future.

13131313.0.0.0.0 Flood RiskFlood RiskFlood RiskFlood Risk

13.1 The site is not situated in a flood risk zone.

14141414.0.0.0.0 EcologyEcologyEcologyEcology

14.1 This application is submitted with an up to date ecology report. No evidence was found for use

of the building by bats.

15151515.0.0.0.0 Planning Policy / ConclusionPlanning Policy / ConclusionPlanning Policy / ConclusionPlanning Policy / Conclusion

15.1 As explained previously the application site is situated within the Southgate Street

Conservation Area and it is Grade 2 listed for its historic and architectural importance.

15.2 We consider that the development would not adversely affect the character and appearance

of the listed building, because of this we do not consider the proposed development to conflict

with any of the local, structure plan or national planning policies. As previously explained we

have gathered planning and conservation opinions and adapted our design to suit where

possible.

15.3 It is understood that pre-application consultation suggested the acceptability of the proposed

scheme.

15.4 In conclusion we believe that the scheme that is proposed will sit comfortably within the

existing listed building shell and within the existing site. There will be no adverse impact on

the listed building or the conservation area.

16161616.0.0.0.0 Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)

Norfolk House - viewed from Spa Road with new build block of flats in distance

Norfolk House - viewed from Spa Road

Car park area and existing ground floor skittle

alley extension to rear

Norfolk House and site access viewed from the

South of the site

Norfolk House and site access Norfolk House - viewed from Spa Road with site

access to left

Norfolk House – viewed from Spa Road with Job

Centre in distance

Skittle alley / toilet extension building where

meets Norfolk house

16161616.0.0.0.0 Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)Existing Photos (external)

Skittle Alley extension and access to club Skittle alley extension viewed from South of the

site

Existing car park Toilet area extension at first floor level

Rear alley side of 6 Spa Road looking towards

Spa Road

Skittle alley extension – viewed from North West

of site

Skittle alley extension access – with toilet area

extension above.

Norfolk House – viewed from Spa Road with new

block of flats to right hand side

16161616.0.0.0.0 Existing Existing Existing Existing PhotosPhotosPhotosPhotos (internal basement)(internal basement)(internal basement)(internal basement)

Basement storage areas Basement dry lining – poor quality dry

lining has been applied to some internal

basement walls as shown

Basement corridor – note no features of

any importance on walls, floor or ceiling

Basement stair hall Basement storage area – external walls

shown here in disrepair and in need of

upgrading

Basement area used as beer cellar for

club

Basement area used as beer cellar for

club

17.0 Photos (Crossed reference to drawing T866.01A)

Photo 1

Modern fire place to be removed.

Photo 2

Plasterboard and skim ceiling removed due to

water damage collapse.

Photo 3

Remains of plasterboard and skim ceiling where

removed due to water damage collapse.

Photo 4

Fire surround to be overhauled and repaired.

Photo 5

Remove existing gas fire and remove fire

surround. Overhaul & repair existing &

reposition where photo 1 fireplace removed at

2nd

floor right hand room.

Photo 6

Retain existing fire place with built in safe.

Photo 7

Evidence of water damaged joist and

plasterboard & skim ceiling now removed due

to collapse.

Photo 8

Retain doors where possible and provide new

doors with style and pattern to match.

Photo 9

Remove existing modern handrail and metal

balustrade and provide new 1100mm high to

landing and 900mm to stair flights.

Photo 10

Remove existing gas fire and surround carefully

checking behind for original fire.

Photo 11

Remove modern dado rail and hardboard

boarding below, throughout the ground floor

rooms.

Photo 12

Remove existing cabinet where formed in

existing window opening and make good

historic fabric left. Provide new timber double

glazed window, painted white to match new

above.

Photo 13

Leave existing plaster lath ceiling & moulding

intact and provide new plasterboard and skim

ceiling suspended underneath.

Photo 14

Leave existing plaster lath ceiling & moulding

intact and provide new plasterboard and skim

ceiling suspended underneath.

Photo 15

Remove cladding to inside of external front

door, overhaul & repair.

Photo 16

Proposed new entrance to flat 1 within the

basement.

Photo 17

Basement, with plasterboard ceiling,

walls, encased beams and existing

services from bar above

18181818.0.0.0.0 AppendixAppendixAppendixAppendix

18.01 Historic Statement

HISTORICHISTORICHISTORICHISTORIC STATEMENTSTATEMENTSTATEMENTSTATEMENT

Spa Road, GloucesterSpa Road, GloucesterSpa Road, GloucesterSpa Road, Gloucester In 1811 springs were discovered to the West of Rigney Stile (Gloucester Park) which is now called Spa Road and sankwells. The springs were discovered by Sir James Jelf, he acquired ground in this area, and built a spa along with a pump room and hot and cold baths, and a row of magnificent houses, which can still be seen in Spa Road. In 1815 the Spa Rooms were opened to subscribers, however he went bankrupt. The importance of the Spa to the City was noticed and a group of shareholders paid £6,500 to buy it. They added further amenities and sold off adjoining land and building work took place in the immediate area in 1818. They built a Hotel, later to become the Judges Lodgings and smart terrace. A Physician by the name of Dr John Baron recommended the water for its iodine content and the Spa was at its most popular in the 1820’s, but by 1829 was losing favour with the public. Unfortunately the Spa Pump Rooms are no longer standing and the only thing to be seen of them now if a plaque on a tree by the bowling green. However, the Judges Lodge and Gloucester Registry Office are original buildings. The Spa gardens are still pleasant to walk around before walking through to the main Municipal Park.

18.02 Norfolk House listing text

18.03 Birds eye views of site

Birds eye view of site from rear of site (South West)

Birds eye view of site from front of site (North East)