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Re: An open heart; poison into nectar

by Ngawang Drolma » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:27 pm

muni wrote:This is my last post.

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by BFS » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:15 pm

An open heart; poison into nectar

learn to laugh and cry with a gentle heart

Pema Chodron - All in the Same Boat

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by BFS » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:16 pm

muni wrote:

This is my last post.

I hope not, I enjoyed your posts, muni.

Take care

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by catmoon » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:34 pm

muni wrote:

This is my last post. Temporary peace will be restored, everlasting I wish all.

It better NOT be. You quit posting and I will send a thousand devas to kick your butt. I have noticed amarked change in your postings lately and I am nursing a suspicion that you have attained an insightof some kind. This needs to develop! Let it live!Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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by ground » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:54 am

ronnewmexico wrote:TM..

"but accept that others are sceptical towards your stereotype postings"

Do you have a mouse in your pocket or have "others" given you authority to speak forthem?

If you mean you are skeptical or some such, you are making the statement not "others",and feel free to state it.













If you claim authority to speak for others I say.....show the proof or else speak foryourself.

This would be a accurate representation if one wanted to make that statement correctly...

but accept that others may be skeptical towards your stereotype postings.Thusly stated it may be a correctly worded statement. Are presumes what is not known tobe. May allows for the possibility of its existance in a more than singular context but doesnot strictly state that multiple references suchly are known to exist.To have uncorrectly worded statements is normally no big deal. When one is accusinganother of sterotype postings or things of that nature, what is stated, must be corrrectlystated. By my take I personally doubt other view all M's posts are sterotypical postings.They may or may not be. Your statement initially infers others certainly do, which is notproven, and thusly implies a consensus view when none may be present. It may(or maynot) be a singular view only. When one is implying a consensus view of negative originapplies, in a public forum where many have participated, this can wrongfullydisincourage such targeted peoples from participating on that basis. If such isestablished(such concensus opinion)....I say go for it, sure, state it. That has absolutelynot been established in this issue. If you state it has I say...prove it. If not edit yourcomment.

Sorry for using the English language not as skillful as you want it to be used. Of course in this contextwhen saying "others" I am speaking from my own individual perspective. I am not claiming thatothers are actually sharing my scepticism as to his postings. How could they? His postings are verynice to read and the instructions contained appear very attractive, easy and without effort. Don't welike everything that announces "achievement without effort"? Of course we do!Actually I believe that scepticisms towards such kind of postings is usually not liked by many and thatsuch kind of instructions are generally more attractive and if one firmly believes in them one maybe calmed, selfsatisfied, peacefully abiding for oneself, perhaps experience some sort of bliss everynow and then, Bliss we may also experience when reading nice poems or seeing nice films that seemto place us outside of this disturbing world. There is nothing bad about bliss, don't get me wrong.It is perfectly natural that we are drawn towards higher blissful states. Humans are always attracted tohigher status.Do not take my scepticism as offense. Each of us may voice agreement, scepticism ... belief or doubt...If one chooses to exclusively publish a special sort of texts only then divergent views and/orscepticism may be voiced publicly. Whether the sort of texts that I am referring to have been meant bytheir authors to be published in this way is another issue.

This is the vajrayana section. I thought that vajrayana is considered "secret". Seems to be an inherentcontradiction to have a vajrayana section in a public forum. But I don't know. I consider everythingpublished openly to be subject to dialectical perspectives also. Because if it were Vajrayana then itwould be explicitely nondialectical, but then it would not be published openly.

I take the responsibility for my misunderstandings and applying language not skillfully. My intentionis not to be offensive. I am just applying freedom of speech. My perspectives may be outrightlyrejected by others. No problem with that.



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by Ngawang Drolma » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:57 am

Hi TMingyur,

It's true, there's a lot in vajrayana that's esoteric. But there's much that we can discuss, too!

It's a matter of being careful with what we share and keeping samaya. That's all

Kindly,Laura

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by ronnewmexico » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:23 pm

TM

Your perspectives are not the problem. When you are speaking of others in such a fashion, you mustbe correct in the manner in which it is stated, otherwise unintended interpretive meaning is possible.Since such communication speaks of the personal, it becomes important.


















A statement such as this is insignificant in its wrongness as it is not a personal observation on aindividual..."Sorry for using the English language not as skillful as you want it to be used", but itserves as example.

The correct statement should be....Sorry for using the English language in a manner which is not asskillful as you want it to be usedor....Sorry for using the English language not as skillfully as you want it to be used.

Stating what you are stateing initially, is incorrect gramatically. We use certain sentence structure toeffectively convey communication. Freedom of speech has nothing, under the sun, to do withexpressing things in a incorrect manner if you want to communicate effectively.

On internet boards it is mostly inconsequential to write in not correct fashions. Speaking about otherson internet boards however may be of consequence and thusly it is important to speak or writecorrectly.

As to what you actually state; I could care less, it is not my concern."This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of selftransformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" thanthrough meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

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by Ngawang Drolma » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:05 pm

Yes, it's kind of personal. I think it's good to be mindful of that when possible When we engage in that personal manner it's important to consider the other person as much aspossible, of course.

Kindly,Laura

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by muni » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:03 am

TMingyur wrote: easy and without effort. Don't we like everything that announces"achievement without effort"? Of course we do!Actually I believe that scepticisms towards such kind of postings is usually not liked bymany and that such kind of instructions are generally more attractive and if one firmlybelieves in them one may be calmed, selfsatisfied, peacefully abiding for oneself,perhaps experience some sort of bliss every now and then, Bliss we may also experiencewhen reading nice poems or seeing nice films that seem to place us outside of thisdisturbing world. There is nothing bad about bliss.

Correction. To be in higher states one can climb on a ladder. Fabricated mental states in which is thebliss experience, need no clinging. No need for, 'just nature'. Let be.

Back to topic.First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

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by ground » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:48 pm

"Abandon desire for bliss, for this harms the mind."








http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony-of-religions-a-buddhist-perspective/









Take all the sufferings of other beings and give all your happiness.

Actually all this "vajrayana" sayings about "bliss" makes me feel sick.

I feel that the small vehicle is more honest in this regard.



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by Luke » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:36 pm

TMingyur wrote:"Abandon desire for bliss, for this harms the mind."Take all the sufferings of other beings and give all your happiness.

Actually all this "vajrayana" sayings about "bliss" makes me feel sick. I feel that the small vehicle is more honest in this regard.

But sometimes feeling sick is good because it's a sign that you are purifying some of the bad karmasyou accumulated in your past. Feeling sick is often part of doing the Nyungne fasting meditationretreats, for example.

I suppose it would also be possible to take the Zen approach and ask oneself, "Who is it that feels sicknow?"

Luke













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by Jangchup Donden » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:31 am

Luke wrote:

TMingyur wrote:"Abandon desire for bliss, for this harms the mind."Take all the sufferings of other beings and give all your happiness.


But sometimes feeling sick is good because it's a sign that you are purifying some of thebad karmas you accumulated in your past. Feeling sick is often part of doing the Nyungnefasting meditation retreats, for example.

Also the Vajrasattva practice, that's a wonderful way to feel horrible and burn up some serious karma

I'm kind of confused as to what's the problem with bliss?

Even the Buddha taught that Nirvana was blissful. It's all over the place

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by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:43 am

We have to abandon both bliss and emptiness, no? But not before both have arisen in equipoise.

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by ronnewmexico » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:28 am

i am going to comment on the technical aspects of these issues, nor into discussion of terms Ipersonally cannot account for, but from a simple laypersons view and a uneducated one at that...

Bliss could be abandoned, but firstly when it presents, as it will from meditational pursuits, it must notbe attached to. It may come and go as any other feeling. Maybe it remains, maybe not....it is notsignificant as are not significant happiness or sad states as well. States they are; not reality or the real.We create circumstance through meditation. Meditation elicits bliss. However does bliss then haveany concrete identity as a solid thing we can obtain....no. It remains consequence and as such it has nointrinsic reality. So bliss is seemingly no end all or final product.

Emptiness..a conceptual view of emptiness as with all concepts must be abandoned. Emptinesshowever pervades our very being and the reality of everything we perceive as exterior. It is therefor aunderstanding and not a conceptual view. It is part of our awareness. Awareness/emptiness...one is theback side of the other seemingly.

That is but my personal view. I can however point to similiar things versed in Buddhism, that versesuch things. And not to state one school of Buddhism is better than any other.

If however you think you must abandon such things by force of will and are aiming for a blissfulnirvanic state to reside in forever....that's fine as well.













I personally will have none of that, but that's a personal decision, not better nor worse than any other.

This for your consideration, I can explain if requested. But the terms and such....don't know a one, asthey are not my concern or aim. So I am no help there.

As to fasting, I'd guess there are many ways of doing this thing. I think there may be some popularbook out now on this thing as well, and recently some popular retreats involving it. I personally have utilized fast. I would in retreat however tell peoples I am on a diet, so as not toconfuse them. It is a lower tantric method in some schools, and if you fast as spiritual means I suspectsome prior to the recent publicity of this thing consider you quite dim. Considered lower tantra, I havefound this uneducated layperson to benefit greatly from its employment, though I claim noaccomplisment.

I have never once however gotten sick though I have fasted on only water for many days at times. Iwatch the hunger, what it is that feels the hunger, and have attempted to find any reality whatsoever tothis thing called hunger and food and self. I found it very useful. Peoples at one retreat house I wasout had a truly exceptional feast of multiple vegan foods when I was there. As they thought I was onlydieting they had no problem with doing that. It was extreamly useful to watch the feast and othersparticipating with much happiness in the feast, about three days or so into my fast. I have actuallynever had such a exceptional circumstance. Wonderful...but part of the wonder was keeping the thingprivate. I personally have never felt sick from fast however, and many times I have fasted. As apractical matter it is also very useful, as you now know you can go for quite some time at least fivedays or so, and I suspect much longer, without any problem.

As to pain.....that is also very useful. It is the same general idea. I again claim no accomplishmentwhatsoever, I am the basest of persons, but when pain is watched in this fashion it seems to disappearas does hunger watched in this same fashion. I have not had occasion to watch great pain as if a legwas torn off but with pains I have watched, that thing does seem to disappear. I in fact have bad teeth,and take the opportunity of having caps and such, fillings put on with no pain meds of any sort towatch these things in a controlled environment. Which makes dentists very sad but I find mostbeneficial for this purpose. The watching seems to remove the need for such things. But as I say Ihave not had a leg torn off or some such that may be different,I don't know. You simply cannotconvince dentists you do not feel the pain they seem to be causeing. If I could fool them somehow Icertainly would.

My guess is all these things sickness pain suffering are the same and if watched in that fashion they alldisappear. Death I suspect is the same as well.

Anyway it is quite wonderful to engage the study of mind to my opinion in this fashion. I in fact arequite inspired writing about this and may engage in another retreat shortly to endeavor in this thingagain. I will be on a diet. Or perhaps I will engage cold, that may be quite useful as well. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss it and withstanding my museing on the subject. It is one ofmy favorites. The interesting nature of watching in this fashion I find quite outweigh any happinesssadness hunger pain or suffering I may have caused to self by creating such circumstance. Fasting as aaside does at times produce a blissful state as well but it passes.

This all however is my personal opinion of a uneducated layperson, so feel free to take it all with agrain of salt. I can possibly explain some of it through Buddhist literature of a particular kind ifrequested, that kind being no worse nor better than any other kind.Last edited by ronnewmexico on Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total."This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of selftransformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" thanthrough meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.






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by Jangchup Donden » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:45 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:We have to abandon both bliss and emptiness, no? But notbefore both have arisen in equipoise.

Well since bliss is emptiness, there's nothing to abandon, right?

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by muni » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:54 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:i am going to comment on the technical aspects of these issues, norinto discussion of terms I personally cannot account for, but from a simple laypersonsview and a uneducated one at that...

Bliss could be abandoned, but firstly when it presents, as it will from meditationalpursuits, it must not be attached to. It may come and go as any other feeling. Maybe itremains, maybe not....it is not significant as are not significant happiness or sad states aswell. States they are; not reality or the real. We create circumstance through meditation.Meditation elicits bliss. However does bliss then have any concrete identity as a solidthing we can obtain....no. It remains consequence and as such it has no intrinsic reality.So bliss is seemingly no end all or final product.

Emptiness..a conceptual view of emptiness as with all concepts must be abandoned.Emptiness however pervades our very being and the reality of everything we perceive asexterior. It is therefor a understanding and not a conceptual view. It is part of ourawareness. Awareness/emptiness...one is the back side of the other seemingly.

That is but my personal view. I can however point to similiar things versed in Buddhism,that verse such things. And not to state one school of Buddhism is better than any other.

If however you think you must abandon such things by force of will and are aiming for ablissful nirvanic state to reside in forever....that's fine as well.I personally will have none of that, but that's a personal decision, not better nor worsethan any other.

This for your consideration, I can explain if requested. But the terms and such....don'tknow a one, as they are not my concern or aim. So I am no help there.

As to fasting, I'd guess there are many ways of doing this thing. I think there may besome popular book out now on this thing as well, and recently some popular retreatsinvolving it. I personally have utilized fast. I would in retreat however tell peoples I am on a diet, so asnot to confuse them. It is a lower tantric method in some schools, and if you fast asspiritual means I suspect some prior to the recent publicity of this thing consider youquite dim. Considered lower tantra, I have found this uneducated layperson to benefitgreatly from its employment, though I claim no accomplisment.

I have never once however gotten sick though I have fasted on only water for many daysat times. I watch the hunger, what it is that feels the hunger, and have attempted to findany reality whatsoever to this thing called hunger and food and self. I found it veryuseful. Peoples at one retreat house I was out had a truly exceptional feast of multiplevegan foods when I was there. As they thought I was only dieting they had no problemwith doing that. It was extreamly useful to watch the feast and others participating withmuch happiness in the feast, about three days or so into my fast. I have actually never hadsuch a exceptional circumstance. Wonderful...but part of the wonder was keeping thething private. I personally have never felt sick from fast however, and many times I havefasted. As a practical matter it is also very useful, as you now know you can go for quitesome time at least five days or so, and I suspect much longer, without any problem.

As to pain.....that is also very useful. It is the same general idea. I again claim noaccomplishment whatsoever, I am the basest of persons, but when pain is watched in thisfashion it seems to disappear as does hunger watched in this same fashion. I have not had





occasion to watch great pain as if a leg was torn off but with pains I have watched, thatthing does seem to disappear. I in fact have bad teeth, and take the opportunity of havingcaps and such, fillings put on with no pain meds of any sort to watch these things in acontrolled environment. Which makes dentists very sad but I find most beneficial for thispurpose. The watching seems to remove the need for such things. But as I say I have nothad a leg torn off or some such that may be different,I don't know. You simply cannotconvince dentists you do not feel the pain they seem to be causeing. If I could fool themsomehow I certainly would.

My guess is all these things sickness pain suffering are the same and if watched in thatfashion they all disappear. Death I suspect is the same as well.

Anyway it is quite wonderful to engage the study of mind to my opinion in this fashion. Iin fact are quite inspired writing about this and may engage in another retreat shortly toendeavor in this thing again. I will be on a diet. Or perhaps I will engage cold, that maybe quite useful as well. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss it and withstanding my museing on the subject.It is one of my favorites. The interesting nature of watching in this fashion I find quiteoutweigh any happiness sadness hunger pain or suffering I may have caused to self bycreating such circumstance. Fasting as a aside does at times produce a blissful state aswell but it passes.

This all however is my personal opinion of a uneducated layperson, so feel free to take itall with a grain of salt. I can possibly explain some of it through Buddhist literature of aparticular kind if requested, that kind being no worse nor better than any other kind.

Very nice to read. First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony ... rspective/

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by ground » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:59 pm

Luke wrote:

TMingyur wrote:"Abandon desire for bliss, for this harms the mind."







http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony-of-religions-a-buddhist-perspective/




Take all the sufferings of other beings and give all your happiness.


But sometimes feeling sick is good because it's a sign that you are purifying some of thebad karmas you accumulated in your past. Feeling sick is often part of doing the Nyungnefasting meditation retreats, for example.

I suppose it would also be possible to take the Zen approach and ask oneself, "Who is itthat feels sick now?"

or we take the reasoned approach and recognize that Mahayana teaches altruism whereas thevajrayana laymen in internet forums advocate hedonism

Of course it is "hedonism in disguise". The disguise being nonsensical "emptiness talk".



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by Luke » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:11 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:I'm kind of confused as to what's the problem with bliss?Even the Buddha taught that Nirvana was blissful. It's all over the place

I think you have to distinguish between ordinary blisswhich is impermanentand the bliss ofnirvanawhich is permanent. I don't think there's anything wrong with ordinary bliss as long as yousee it as the impermanent experience it is and don't become attached to it.

TMingyur wrote:or we take the reasoned approach and recognize that Mahayana teachesaltruism whereas the vajrayana laymen in internet forums advocate hedonism











Haha, I agree. Bodhichitta motivation always has to be the heart of everything.

My lama once told me a Lojong saying which went something like this: "If I can benefit other sentient beings more by being healthy, then I will be healthy. If I can benefitother sentient beings more by being sick, then I will be sick. If I can benefit other sentient beingsmore by living, then I will live. If I can benefit other sentient beings more by dying, then I will die."

Of course, such a saying sounds crazy to most westerners because our culture is largely built uponselfinterest (which I won't pretend that I've totally disengaged from).

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by ronnewmexico » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:22 pm

Someone will now invariably post some sutra stateing the circumstance of nirvana is ultimate bliss,but aside from that which will probably follow...

Some Buddhist thought contends nothing is permanant in that fashion. Bliss is but a consequence aswell so it holds no degree of permanance. Though functionally a thing may be permanant, as ourconsciousness always produces objects to be aware of and the consequence is a continum ofconsciousness is perceived, a attainment of the circumstance of nivrana may always be characterizedby bliss(though I have heard of it described as equaniminty more truly). That does not imply absolutepermanance. It is like water being always wet. When water presents it is wet always. But that impliesnothing as to the quality of wetness being permanent. There may exist circumstance that does notproduce the presence of water.

I mention this as to my personal opinion(as is this entire post)....the consideration of things as havinga absolute nature leads to absolutism and eventually a form of theism the ideological extension ofabsolutism, which is not where things seem to be. So there is no absolute permanent nature to nirvananor bliss.










Of course your faith may hold a differing view which is fine as well and equal in some respects.

A hedonistic philosophy is a extension of nihilism the other extream view on the spectrum of religiousideology. 180 degrees from absolutism. This is rational for describing Buddhism as the middle way, itrejects the two extreams of nihilism and absolutism. Hedonists essentially discount the karmiceffect(effect of action) and its relationship to beings. As in it being a logical point(emptiness is part ofeverything) but taken to a illogical conclusion....we can then reasonably conclude nothing matters.

Well no..... though everything has empty characteristic conventionally things still exist and beings stillsuffer. Cause and effect do not cease to exist on the basis of our understanding that the objectsproduced by circumstance do not have inherant quality about them. Nihilism by logical extensionrejects ther existance of the conventional and conventional cause and effect. This is part of the reasonsome schools emphesize that it is most difficult to consider and meditate upon the nonexistance ofthings firstly....it leads to nihilism, but rather our focus is upon firstly the nonexistance of self andsoul,then perhaps the nonexistance of things, but secondary. It is very hard to consider thenonexistance(empty quality) of things and not fall directly into nihilism. That philosophy is fine andgood, on a rational basis, but the consequent result of holding such philosophy and consequent resultlead to much much suffering in unfortunate rebirth due to habitual pattern integration, a downwardspiral is begun. So Buddhist teachers, to my view, push much more towards absolutism for the novicerather than towards the emptiness characteristic of things. First is developed faith trust devotioncompassion...then is considered the empty quality of things not the other way around.

As a aside of sorts these discussions are nothing even remotely new. During the time of the Buddhaone school led by one particular teacher held the view that everything could be reduced to aquestioning hypothesis. This philosophical stance was rejected by Buddha and Buddhists of the day.Many many philosophical schools existed at the same time 2500 years ago in India, to include schoolssuch as Jainism which approximate Buddhists view of emptiness but with the addition of permanentcharacteristics to a soul, and the Brahamins which of course held the absolutist view of things. Thequestioning hypothesis peoples generally held nothing could be determined and all could be subject toinquiry, without resolution thusly the inquiry was the only absolute, which constituted in actuality asform of production, as effect...nihilism, a nihilist view.

In a Tibetan sense this divergence of view may be represented perhaps by the consideration of theHwashang school of Buddhism (which by logical extension may stem from the contemplativeexclusionary meditation of Udraka, but that is conjecture). The Hwashang school held a cosiderablefollowing in Tibet 1200 years ago, and was considered a strictly contemplative branch of ChanBuddhism(not to state that is fact) with logical conclusion of this practice considered to be a form ofnihilism, not the middle view(and not to state that is fact). But it shows the rejection of nihilism asBuddhist view regardless. I will not get into the nuances of the issue(Tibet/Chinese nationismperhaps) but generally ideologically that is the consideration.... nihilist view as oppoed to middle wayview being not sustainable in logical consideration and debate. The ultimate outcome of this disputewas settled by debate and the victor being chosen by the king of Tibet and decided which directionBuddhism would go in Tibet, a Chinese(considered) or Indian view. I would contend the actuality isprobably framed in nationalism and the historical emnity between China and Tibet but I onlyconjecture. The ultimate outcome was a rejection of what was thought to be a nihilist framed Buddhistphilosohy(not to state Chan is in any manner that).It is a story of what transpired not what transpired.

To add to your discussion for consideration. If considered irrelevent disregard I don't care if mywritings are entertaining, particularly."This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of selftransformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" thanthrough meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.





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