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Re: Defining Buddhism Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana

by Jnana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:55 am

mr. gordo wrote:The divisive thread you started here by mocking Mahayana andVajrayana (as you say "Mahāyāna a tradition which has no connection to the śramaṇaGautama"), is just another one of the reasons esangha just didn't work out.

My goodness you have a knack for jumping to fallacious conclusions! I'm not "mocking" theMahāyāna or the Vajrayāna. My Mahāyāna faith isn't contingent upon believing that the Mahāyānateachings were taught by the śramaṇa Gautama.

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mr. gordo wrote:A forum you so quickly ridicule, and yet are duplicating the samebehavior from over there into here.

Yet another inaccurate characterization. I have never once ridiculed Esangha.

mr. gordo wrote:A I have received teachings from Bhantes in Mahasi style vipassana,and they have my deepest respect. When I have discussions on Theravada forums, I amrespectful. I have no deceptive agenda because my respect in sincere and genuine. I don'tgo to a friend or mentor's house and defecate in their dining room.

A discussion of historical developments of Buddhist ideas and practices is not "disrespecting"anything or anyone. Your suggestion that it is analogous to "defecating in someone's dining room" isutterly preposterous.

All the best,

Geoff

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by kirtu » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:59 am

kirtu wrote:Tantra in general is quite a complex subject.

The śramaṇa Gautama never advocated employing passion in any way whatsoever. Thereare explicit rejections of the very notion of using passion as a path component in histeachings.

In the Sravakayana that is true but actually the word passion in the quote does not mean just orpredominately sexual contact. The main meaning is for any kind of sense contact, pleasant orunpleasant through any of the 6 sense doors. It is the transformation of the sense perceptions and notthe rejection of or indulgence in sense contact that is the key method.

But as I said we have no basis for continuing this discussion. We will just end up making dogmaticstatements at each other.





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kirtu wrote:If they lack faith in the Mahayana then that's fine. Please follow the Sravakapath. But don't malign the Bodhisattva path.

The insinuation that I'm somehow "maligning" the bodhisattva path is completely without merit andquite ridiculous.

All the best,

Geoff


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by tobes » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:12 am

It strikes me that Yeshe is raising an interesting and valid question, much discussed in Buddhistscholarship. Moreover, he is consistently providing well founded responses.

I think he deserves far more respect than he is receiving on this thread.

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by Pero » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:18 am

Yeshe D. wrote:

kirtu wrote:If they lack faith in the Mahayana then that's fine. Please followthe Sravaka path. But don't malign the Bodhisattva path.

The insinuation that I'm somehow "maligning" the bodhisattva path is completely withoutmerit and quite ridiculous.

When you say things like:















Yeah, I know the "two truths" trip.

The śramaṇa Gautama and his disciples didn't use this kind of convoluted language.

The point is this: Anyone who's faith is based on the Mahāyāna a tradition which hasno connection to the śramaṇa Gautama, i.e. the "Buddha," would be prudent to showextreme restraint from casting dispersions upon others for teaching, as you put it, a "falseDharma." What is quite laughable here, is how heterodoxy is turned into orthodoxy andthen used as a weapon against others.

It's kind of hard to take that seriously.Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one doesnot have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision. Shabkar

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Pero wrote:It's kind of hard to take that seriously.

What I'm merely trying to point out is this: The śramaṇa Gautama Buddha's life was embedded in aunique social, cultural, and historical situation. Āryāsaṅga's life was embedded in a unique social,cultural, and historical situation. Sarahapāda's life was embedded in a unique social, cultural, andhistorical situation. Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé's life was embedded in a unique social, cultural,and historical situation. Reginald Ray's life is embedded in a unique social, cultural, and historicalsituation. All of these individuals have responded to their unique situation by offering teachings whichare aimed to help their contemporaries by resonating with the unique social, cultural, and historicalsituation of their contemporaries. None of these individuals speaks for the others. We can have greatfaith in whichever path we have chosen without needing to conflate visionary narratives withhistorical situations. And we can have great faith in whichever path we've chosen without castingdispersions upon learned and dedicated teachers like Reggie Ray.










All the best,

Geoff


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by ground » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:23 am

Yeshe D. wrote:We can have great faith in whichever path we have chosen withoutneeding to conflate visionary narratives with historical situations.

From an intellectual perspective Yes.

However the role inconceivable "figures", i.e. idealized metapersons play in this context should notbe underestimated. I think that those are the "emotional experiential" basis of any efficient faith andtherefore of any efficient path. This human fact seems to be the origin of the saying that "the teacher isthe root of the path" which with reference to contemporary teachers necessarily comprises"lineage".

Kind regards

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by ground » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:40 am

My personal view is such:Mahayana is the teaching of bodhisatvas. Bodhisattvas also have written all the Mahayana sutras andsastras.The Mahayana is like a mesh: Only a few do not pass the mesh and practice the bodhisatva path. The majority practices the path that will entail devine rebirth. Another group following the Mahayana teachings actually practices the arhat path (withoutnecessarily being aware about this fact). Those who deludedly think that they follow Mahayana teachings and have aversion against theteachings of Shakyamuni Buddha (who taught the arhat path but who did not teach the Mahayana bymeans of words) are to be regretted. Actually these are the ones that require compassionate help moreurgently than any ordinary nonbuddhist but ethically qualified people.

Kind regardsLast edited by ground on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by kirtu » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:43 am

Yeshe D. wrote:


What I'm merely trying to point out is this: The śramaṇa Gautama Buddha's life wasembedded in a unique social, cultural, and historical situation.

That's not true. Shakyamuni Buddha was actually omniscient. That's one of the definitions ofBuddhahood (although we can debate what omniscience actually means). He was not constrained byhis environment. He was not an ordinary being at all not even as a physical form Buddha (aNirmanakaya). And from the Mahayana and Vajrayana perspective he gave Mahayana and someVajrayana teachings.














Āryāsaṅga's life was embedded in a unique social, cultural, and historical situation.

Sure he eventually became a 2nd Bhumi Bodhisattva. He was constrained by his perceptions awayfrom practice.

Sarahapāda's ... Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé's life was embedded in a unique social,cultural, and historical situation.

Looking at their external circumstances this is true but they weren't strictly limited in this way.

And we can have great faith in whichever path we've chosen without casting dispersionsupon learned and dedicated teachers like Reggie Ray.

I certainly hope that he blossoms into a teacher like those mentioned above ....

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by Mr. G » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:58 am

mr. gordo wrote:A I have received teachings from Bhantes in Mahasi style vipassana,and they have my deepest respect. When I have discussions on Theravada forums, I amrespectful. I have no deceptive agenda because my respect in sincere and genuine. I don'tgo to a friend or mentor's house and defecate in their dining room.

A discussion of historical developments of Buddhist ideas and practices is not"disrespecting" anything or anyone. Your suggestion that it is analogous to "defecating insomeone's dining room" is utterly preposterous.

Take a good look at the tone of your posts. There's discussion, and then there's dismissiveness in acombative fashion.

Yet another inaccurate characterization. I have never once ridiculed Esangha.

We know how successful this attitude of "[W]hy practice Buddhism if one doesn't believe in rebirth?,"conjoined with similar sentiments and actions, proved to be for Esangha. viewtopic.php?p=22531#p22531

And in my opinion the Dharma is far too precious and rare in this world for the Esangha fiasco toever be repeated in any arena or amongst any people attempting to learn and integrate all of theaspects of the eightfold path. viewtopic.php?p=22548#p22548

How foolish you are, grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention! Vasubandhu

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by Indrajala » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:19 am

Yeshe D. wrote:

Huseng wrote:However, both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna alike never rejectedthe fundamental ideas taught by the Buddha like rebirth and karma.

There are numerous examples in the Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna literature where, byblurring of distinctions between ethical and unethical conduct, karma and itsconsequences for low rebirth are diluted to the point of being meaningless. For example,the Mañjuśrīparivartāparaparyāyā Saptaśatikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra:

The texts you cited are alluding to the higher teaching of emptiness.

Those five deadly sins are dependently arisen just as enlightenment is. This is a higher teachingpresumably reserved, at least originally, for a small number of individuals who already lived ethicallives and understood well the difference between conventional and ultimate truths.

In the Mahāyāna as I am sure you know there is an idea that sentient beings are of different capacitiesand faculties.

In this case, emptiness taught to the unprepared is like feeding milk to a snake. One will come toerroneous conclusions such as karma and its consequences for low rebirth being diluted to the point ofbeing meaningless.

If one understands the teaching properly there is no such dilution.

I am sure you understand this position, but are just playing the devil's advocate.

Huseng wrote:

Yeshe D. wrote:The Indian Nikāya schools who only acceptedthe Āgamas (and corresponding Nikāyas) as the Buddha word.These schools were mainstream until at least the 5th or 6thcentury CE.








Well that's your definition of mainstream dharma, however millions of othersdevout Buddhists who practise Mahāyāna would disagree.

You're merely offering the fallacy of appeal to large numbers.

There is no fallacy to begin with. The idea of "mainstream dharma" is entirely subjective."Mainstream" by modern standards would mean that by popular majority the Mahāyāna would bemost mainstream.

Quite well established research actually.

I'm well aware of present day research and its limitations. Trying to reconstruct Indian history twothousand years ago or so is not an easy task.

It is again a demonstrable fact that anything even approaching popular support for theMahāyāna cannot be documented until 4th/5th century AD, and ... although there was as we know from Chinese translations a large and early Mahāyāna literature there wasno early, organized, independent, publicly supported movement that it could havebelonged to.

Do we have access to historical records for every single kingdom in the Indian subcontinent? Howabout accounting records?

Huseng wrote:In any case, the roots of Mahāyāna ideas are easily found inthe Āgama literature. Without ever looking at a Mahāyāna text, one could seethe spark of the Mahāyāna simply by asking, "How did Shakyamuni becomea Buddha and how can I likewise achieve such a thing?"

The śramaṇa Gautama didn't become a buddha by practicing the above teachings from theMahāyāna Sūtras and Tantras.

According to one opinion.

Then again we need to keep in mind the definition of "Buddha" differs from school to school. Evenamongst the Śrāvaka schools there was no universal consensus on the qualities of the Buddha.

One good work which outlines this is The Concept of the Buddha by Guang Xing.

Consider the following:



The concept of the Buddha was significantly advanced at the time ofthe early Indian Buddhist schools, especially the Sarvastivada and theMahasanghika. The Sarvastivadins were more empirical in their approach.They summarized and synthesized the attributes and qualities of the Buddhaas described in the early sutras before formulating, for the first time, thetwobody theory: that of the rupakAya and the dharmakAya. The rupakAya,according to the Sarvastivadins, although impure, is endowed with the thirtytwomajor and eighty minor marks as well as a onefathom halo. ThedharmakAya is endowed with the eighteen exclusive attributes: the tenpowers, the four kinds of intrepidity, the three foundations of mindfulnessand great compassion. None of the constituents of either the rupakAya orthe dharmakAya are innovative; rather, they consist of the qualities of theBuddha which were already present in early Buddhism. Some of them, suchas the ten powers and the thirtytwo major marks were simply taken fromthe NikAyas and the Agamas with further explanations. Other qualities,for instance the eighty minor marks and the onefathom halo, were takenafter careful synthesis.

As well as this:

The Mahasanghikas’ religious philosophy was based more on faith than onreason, and accepted whatever was said by the Buddha or, more precisely,whatever was taught in the NikAyas and the Agamas. As a result, theydeveloped the concept of a transcendental (lokottara) Buddha based on thesuperhuman qualities of the Buddha, as discussed in Chapter 1 above. Twoaspects of the Mahasanghikas’ concept of the Buddha can be identified: thetrue Buddha who is omniscient and omnipotent, and the manifested formsthrough which he liberates sentient beings with skilful means. Shakyamuniwas considered but one of these forms. The true Buddha supports the manifestedforms that can appear in the worlds of the ten directions. In MahayanaBuddhism, the former aspect – the true Buddha – was developed and dividedinto the concept of the dharmakAya and the concept of the sambhogakAya;the latter aspect – the manifested forms – was developed into the concept ofnirmAnakAya. Thus, the Mahasanghikas are the originators of the idea ofthe nirmAnakAya, and the manifested forms can have many embodiments.Furthermore, they also introduced the theory of numerous Buddhas existingin other worlds.

Even from a Śrāvaka position the Mahāsāṃghika approach is still based entirely on Āgama literature.They also did not accept Abhidharma as canonical. However, their vision and interpretation of theBuddha was quite different from that of Sthaviravāda schools.

Now in such a transcendental interpretation of the Buddha (lokottara) it follows that since the trueBuddha manifests forms through which he liberates sentient beings with skilful means one couldcontinue to be taught by the Buddha though Shakyamuni has long since passed away from the



physical world.

Those seeking the same transcendence could have been taught the Mahāyāna by the Buddha in purevisions. The Mahāyāna, though not taught by Shakyamuni on Earth, was still a teaching by theBuddha nevertheless. A lot of Mahāyāna scriptures are obviously not meant to be understood ashaving been taught by Shakyamuni in the ordinary physical world. Basically, Shakyamuni, who waslater identified as a nirāmaṇakāya, did not teach the Mahāyāna, but that's not problematic at all. TheMahāyāna was likely first taught by a manifested form in visions to those few individuals capable ofgrasping its import.

Even by the Mahāsāṃghika approach this is plausible. They wouldn't have accepted such visions ascanonical, but those few individuals having them would presumably have taken them quite seriouslyand perhaps taught them to others.

Your interpretation above sounds very much like Sthaviravāda, which is fine. However, there are otherŚrāvaka understandings like that of the Mahāsāṃghika who saw Buddha as representing somethingtranscendental. Indeed, they still sought Arhatship. However, in time some would have asked if itwere possible to achieve the same transcendental state that they saw as the true Buddha. They weremotivated by compassion and concern for sentient beings. The true Buddha presumably could haverevealed to them in visions the means and methods necessary to achieve something beyond Arhatship.

The result was the first Mahāyāna sūtras which are Saddharma and word of the Buddha.Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) DharmaDepository (Site)

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by Pero » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:07 am

Yeshe D. wrote:


http://wenyanwen.blogspot.com/





https://sites.google.com/site/dharmadepository/

http://huayanzang.blogspot.com/




http://huayanzang.blogspot.com/

http://indrajalapatha.blogspot.in/




...All of these individuals have responded to their unique situation by offering teachingswhich are aimed to help their contemporaries by resonating with the unique social,cultural, and historical situation of their contemporaries. None of these individuals speaksfor the others. We can have great faith in whichever path we have chosen without needingto conflate visionary narratives with historical situations. And we can have great faith inwhichever path we've chosen without casting dispersions upon learned and dedicatedteachers like Reggie Ray.

I see, I think I mostly agree with that.

Kirt wrote:That's not true. Shakyamuni Buddha was actually omniscient. That's one ofthe definitions of Buddhahood (although we can debate what omniscience actuallymeans). He was not constrained by his environment. ...

That's not true Kirt, of course he was constrained by his environment. Everyone who has a physicalbody is. Being omniscient has nothing to do with it. If I'm omniscient and I know that there is theelement buddhonium on Io which can be used as a source for creating infinite amounts of electricity itwouldn't do much good to me or anyone else to tell it to people who believe there isn't anything elsein the universe than the Moon and the Sun and/or if even electricity is not being used yet. Especially ifmy intention is to teach people how to achieve Buddhahood.Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one doesnot have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision. Shabkar

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by Astus » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:19 am

In Zen (no matter which version) they teach that there is a transmission lineage coming fromShakyamuni and even beyond that from the previous buddhas up to the current generation of so calledZen patriarchs. This concept of transmission is especially cherished in the West as something centralto Zen. Its importance is clearer if we understand that what is transmitted is the buddhamind, theenlightenment of the buddha, consequently those receiving this transmission are equals of a buddha.










But if we put aside the religious idea and look at it historically it turns out the whole transmission ismade up and has no factual basis. While the notion of this special transmission has a meaning in thecontext of Zen it is at the same time a device used by monks of the past to gain authority and prestige.Those who firmly believe in the importance of a "Zen Master" (with capitals) might find thesescholarly things insulting and offensive towards Zen (although it seems to me that those scholars whoresearch Zen's history do that not because it is such a good business but because they are interested init, might as well be followers of the religion).

The situation with other schools is similar. There is an internal, mythological legend of the history ofBuddhism and there is an external, scientific version. It is noteworthy that neither the internal nor theexternal view are finished or stable. An important difference in the two versions is in their purpose asone takes religious preferences while the other takes scientific ones. Thus one should see things forwhat they are and understand the different categories of views and statements. This is not a badpractice for being free from attachments to concepts that as we can see from this very thread too can cause emotional disturbances."If the BuddhaNature is seen, there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing."(Nirvana Sutra, T12n374p521b3; tr Yamamoto)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;True Buddha can’t be found.Does marvelous nature and spiritNeed tempering or refinement?Mind is this mind carefree;This face, the face at birth."(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b2426)

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by muni » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:07 pm

Astus wrote:Thus one should see things for what they are and understand the differentcategories of views and statements. This is not a bad practice for being free fromattachments to concepts that as we can see from this very thread too can causeemotional disturbances.

If there is doubt. Just thinking some years ago, such internet debates didn't exist. Choices.

Good, we can encourage our fellows to go beyond comfort zone.First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony ... rspective/

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by Jnana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:03 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Take a good look at the tone of your posts. There's discussion, and thenthere's dismissiveness in a combative fashion.

No dismissiveness of anything other than the conflation of religious hagiography and history. Again,your suggestion that my posts are analogous to "defecating in someone's dining room" is utterlypreposterous. If I were easily offended, your analogy would probably be considered offensive.

mr. gordo wrote:

Yeshe D. wrote:Yet another inaccurate characterization. I have never onceridiculed Esangha.

We know how successful this attitude of "[W]hy practice Buddhism if one doesn't believein rebirth?," conjoined with similar sentiments and actions, proved to be for Esangha. viewtopic.php?p=22531#p22531









http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony-of-religions-a-buddhist-perspective/





And in my opinion the Dharma is far too precious and rare in this world for the Esanghafiasco to ever be repeated in any arena or amongst any people attempting to learn andintegrate all of the aspects of the eightfold path. viewtopic.php?p=22548#p22548

If you're implying that these posts, or any others, are ridiculing Esangha, then that is a completelyinaccurate characterization and you're wrong. The mention of the Esangha fiasco is in reference to aseries of wellknown events which occurred on the Esangha forum. It is not a qualification of the Esangha Forum as a whole.

All the best,

Geoff


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by Mr. G » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:16 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:No dismissiveness of anything other than the conflation of religioushagiography and history.

I appreciate the points you bring up actually, but I’m not the only one to have noticed your hostile andflippant quips.

mr. gordo wrote:

Yeshe D. wrote:Yet another inaccurate characterization. I have never onceridiculed Esangha.

We know how successful this attitude of "[W]hy practice Buddhism if one doesn't believein rebirth?," conjoined with similar sentiments and actions, proved to be for Esangha. viewtopic.php?p=22531#p22531

And in my opinion the Dharma is far too precious and rare in this world for the Esanghafiasco to ever be repeated in any arena or amongst any people attempting to learn andintegrate all of the aspects of the eightfold path. viewtopic.php?p=22548#p22548If you're implying that these posts, or any others, are ridiculing Esangha, then that is a












completely inaccurate characterization and you're wrong. The mention of the Esanghafiasco is in reference to a series of wellknown events which occurred on the Esanghaforum. It is not a qualification of the Esangha Forum as a whole.

I’m just quoting from your words, that’s all.


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by Jnana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:43 pm

mr. gordo wrote:I’m not the only one to have noticed your hostile and flippant quips.

Any perceptions of hostility perceived on the part of the reader were not part of the posts. Again,another inaccurate characterization.

All the best,

Geoff


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by plwk » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:44 pm

TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF

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by Mr. G » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:00 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:

mr. gordo wrote:I’m not the only one to have noticed your hostile andflippant quips.

http://chancenter.org/cmc/publications/free-literature/?offset=8

http://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice

http://www.wisdompubs.org/pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=86&-Token.Action=&image=1


http://blpusa.com/category/buddhism-in-every-step










http://www.shengyen.org.tw/newSite/ArticleAdmin/book/orthodox.pdf




Any perceptions of hostility perceived on the part of the reader were not part of the posts.Again, another inaccurate characterization.

Zzzzz


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by muni » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:07 pm










plwk wrote:

Thank you plwk.First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.

http://samdhongrinpoche.com/en/harmony ... rspective/

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