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31/8/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic "stress" in translations from Pali & Sanskrit

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"stress" in translations from Pali & Sanskrit

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"stress" in translations from Pali & Sanskrit

by DGA » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:22 pm

Some time ago I read Thanissaro Bikkhu's book _The Wings to Awakening,_ where, if I remembercorrectly, he translated the Pali word dukkha as "stress" rather than the more conventional terms"suffering" or "sorrow" or "dissatisfaction." Anyone know if this is isolated, or if other translatorsparticularly in Mahayana use similar diction? (Dharmaasstressrelieflanguage, I mean.)Fast and bulbous. Tight also.

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Re: "stress" in translations from Pali & Sanskrit

by retrofuturist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:23 am

Greetings Jikan,

I'd be careful as positing venerable Thanissaro's translation of dukkha as stress as implying thatDharma is for "stressrelief" in the conventional use of this phrase.

To compare to the terms you've used... suffering, sorrow and dissatisfaction are all the stress/tensionbetween what is wanted versus what is.

Maitri,Retro. Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewingeach other with kindly eyes

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by DGA » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:16 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

Thanks for the word of caution.

It seems to me that Thanissaro Bikkhu chooses his words with great care. His concern for accuracyand his respect for the Canon are obvious and commendable. When he explicitly uses the word stressin its contemporary meaning as a translation for dukkha, he's at least implying that dhamma practiceas he understands it is a form of stress relief. He's clearly doing it on purpose.

I'm not saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu understands dhamma practice *only* or *merely* as stressrelief, or that he's reducing dhamma practice to a form of corporate training or whatever, merely thathe's invoking a certain discourse in his translations for whatever reason he may have. I'm notinterested in making a value judgment on this decision. That would be boring, yes?

I'm simply asking if this is something that is specific to Thanissaro Bikkhu's translations, or if it canbe found elsewhere.Fast and bulbous. Tight also.


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by Ken1969 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:28 am

Walpola Rahula writes in What the Buddha Taught:

The First Noble Truth is generally translated by almost all scholars as 'The Noble Truth of Suffering',and it is interpreted to mean that life, according to Buddhism is nothing but suffering and pain. Both
















translation and interpreation are highly unsatisfactory and misleading. It is because of this limited,free and easy translation, and its superficial interpretation, that many people have been misled intoregarding Buddhism as pessimistic.

(Rahula eventually goes on to say:)

It is admitted that the term dukkha in the First Noble Truth contains, quite obviously, the ordinarymeaning of 'suffering', but in addition it also includes deeper ideas such as 'imperfection','impermanence', 'emptiness', insubstantiality'. It is difficult therefore to find one word to embrace thewhole conception of the term dukkha as the First Noble Truth, and so it is better to leave ituntranslated, than to give an inadeqate and wrong idea of it by conveniently translating it as 'suffering'or 'pain'.

The Buddha does not deny happiness in life when he says there is suffering...

All typos are mine, and I hope that helped!

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by meindzai » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:38 pm

Thanissaro Bhikkhu has cited three reasons for this translation. This comes from several talks that Iremember so I cannot give any reference, but I'm pretty sure they were from audiodharma.

1) It is harder to romanticize. i.e. people will romanticize suffering as if it in itself is something noble.As in "I suffer for my art" or what have you. But he says you will never hear anybody refer to "mynoble stress."

2) dukkha applies even to very refined states of concentration, including the higher jhanas/dyanas.Even when there are huge amounts of rapture and joy, there is still dukkha. The word "suffering"doesn't really fit here, so again the word "stress" is more appropriate.

3) I cannot remember the third. I was hoping that by the time I got here I would if I kept typing. Maybe there's only two. If anybody remembers please post.











I would say that Buddhism is stress relief. It's just that it's a complete and total relief of any and allthreads of stress. Not something you get sitting in a hot tub. (Though I suppose enlightenment canhappen anywhere).

EDIT: I found the third reason from another post of mine on one of dhammapal's yahoo groups.Ironically on that post I couldn't remember #1.

If you ask a lot of people if you are suffering, they will many times say "no." In such a case they willnot really be interested in any means of ending suffering. But if you ask them if they have stress."Yes, of course!"

M"The Dharma is huge." Rael

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by DGA » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:21 pm

Thanks, M. That's exactly the information I needed.

incidentally, if y'all haven't read _The Wings to Awakening,_ you should consider doing so. I found ithelpful.Fast and bulbous. Tight also.


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by Aemilius » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:11 pm

I have read the Wings to Awakening periodically, and I have gone back to it several times. I like hisstyle. I don't think all his inventions are really helpful for better understanding, at times I keepremembering that the older Palitext Society versions were more readable.Recently I tried to find the Gotami Sutta where Buddha teaches about how to recognize authenticteachings of Dharma, the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu is available for free, but the main ideadoesn't come across clearly, or not at all.At present I can't check how it is put in the Pali Text Society version, but I'm sure it is more clear andthe main point is plain evident. In the older translation there is "teaching of dharma" ( as far as Iremember it), but Thanissaro has "qualities"!? Why on earth!? Is it an accident !? Or is he confusingthe issue ?!In the description of the mentioned sutta Access to Insight says correctly that it is about the criteriahow to recognize authentic teachings of Dharma. But how do they know it ?! Through some oldercatalog maybe ? Gotami Sutta AN 8.53http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/#an8svaha

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by vinodh » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:45 am

Most Indian Languages retain the Sanskrit "Duhkha" in their language.

So, its easy for a an Indian to comprehend the entire spectrum of meanings that the word "duhkha"may imply .

One of the advantages of being Indian






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One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddhaśālistamba sūtra

na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravamsadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham

Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him] saddharmalaṅkāvatārasūtra

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by Anders » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:57 am

Aemilius wrote: At present I can't check how it is put in the Pali Text Society version, butI'm sure it is more clear and the main point is plain evident. In the older translation thereis "teaching of dharma" ( as far as I remember it), but Thanissaro has "qualities"!? Whyon earth!? Is it an accident !? Or is he confusing the issue ?!


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'Dhamma' can be translated as teaching, phenomena, quality, law and probably a host of othermeanings I am not thinking of right now. It's usually decided by context.

I guess you could read it either way here. Probably a good case for leaving it untranslated."Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hellI would endure it for myriad lifetimes As your companion in practice" Gandavyuha Sutra

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by Huifeng » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:35 am

Jikan wrote:Some time ago I read Thanissaro Bikkhu's book _The Wings to Awakening,_where, if I remember correctly, he translated the Pali word dukkha as "stress" rather thanthe more conventional terms "suffering" or "sorrow" or "dissatisfaction." Anyone know ifthis is isolated, or if other translators particularly in Mahayana use similar diction?(Dharmaasstressrelieflanguage, I mean.)

Ven Thanissaro is the only translator I know of who uses this term "stress" to translate dukkha (/duhkha). And while I'm here, I use two types of terms: suffering / pain for duhkha when it is in the sukha /duhkha paradigm; and dissatisfaction when it is in terms of the aryasatya, or the "dissatisfaction assuffering" duhkhaduhkha, "dissatisfaction as change" viparinamaduhkha and "dissatisfaction asbeing conditioned" samskaraduhkha system. The point is clearest with translating duhkhaduhkha.

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by mikenz66 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:27 am

I can't add much to the excellent discussion here, but I will say that the review by Andrew Olendski ofBhikkhu Bodhi's excellent collection "In the Buddha's Words" has some comments on the use oflanguage in English translations of the Pali. It can be read here:http://www.wisdompubs.org/pages/display ... n=&image=1

He discusses three major collections:

The first consistsof the Pali Text Society translationswhich have been generated over the pastcentury by some of Buddhism’s foremostscholars, including T. W. Rhys Davidsand his wife Caroline Rhys Davids, I. B.Horner, F. L. Woodward, and E. M. Hare.There is, however, much diversity in theirrendering of technical vocabulary (e.g.,are asavas Deadly Floods, cankers, Drugsor Poisons, intoxicants, influxes, or effluents?),and an antiquated feel to some ofthe English usage (e.g., “Yea, as thousay’st then wast thou, Bhaggava!”). Thereis also some question about whether the“academic objectivity” of a brilliant,Christian, nonmeditating linguist is thebest mode in which to attempt to rendermaterial of such subtle interiority as theBuddha’s dhamma.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu is gradually working









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towards an alternative English translationof the Pali Canon, and each new texthe translates is published for free distributionand placed on the Internet (accesstoinsight.org) for free downloading. Becauseof their preference for working in cyberspace,the younger generation of dhammaenthusiasts is widely using this version ofthe Tipitaka. But those more familiar withthe vernacular that is current in dhammacircles struggle with some of his idiosyncraticword choices (e.g., “stress” fordukkha, “frame of reference” for satipatthana,“Unbinding” for nibbana). It’s notto say that these are not excellent choicesonce one understands the reasoning, butunless or until his canon becomes morewidely adopted, many readers will tend tostub their toes upon some of these terms.Thanissaro clearly knows his traditionwell, and adds to his work the importantdimension of experiential depth.

The third English translation of the PaliCanon consists largely, but not exclusively,of the texts put out by Wisdom Publicationsin the last decade or so. Walshe’sLong Discourses, Nanamoli’s MiddleLength Discourses, and Bhikkhu Bodhi’sConnected Discourses and NumericalDiscourses, along with some freelancetranslations from the fifth Nikaya, orcollection, have come to form a coherentand reasonably consistent body of workof considerable usefulness to the modernreader. ...

I thought the bit in red was a hoot!

Mike

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by Josef » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:56 pm

Stress is the absolute worst translation of dukkha I have ever seen.It completely neuters the meaning.

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by Aemilius » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:54 am

I have high regard for the work of Thanissaro Bhikkhu, yet I think there are worse things than thestress in his translations. For example he has the word fermentation as a translation of asava or klesha!You can find it in Nimitta sutta: Themes. How does that word sound in your ear ? The ending offermentations ??svaha



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by Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:01 pm

Aemilius wrote:How does that word sound in your ear ?

Stupid. Effluent is better.http://www.atikosha.orghttp://www.bhaisajya.nethttp://www.bhaisajya.guruhttp://www.sakyapa.netའ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordialstate of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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by catmoon » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:16 pm

I think in attempting to choose terms a Western audience can connect with, Thanissaro bhikku went alittle too far. I'm no linguist, but I've listened to a few talks on Dukkha, and I think even a relativeneophyte can recognize that although the term" stress" is pointedly accurate for many Westerners, it ismuch too narrow a term to encompass the full scope of dukkha. Maybe his intention was to provideanother way of translating it, so as to broaden the meaning for those who read widely, rather than


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provide a single definitive translation.

And a side issue: is it dhukka or dukkha? I see both spellings all over the net. More dukkha hm?Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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by Jnana » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:23 pm

catmoon wrote:And a side issue: is it dhukka or dukkha? I see both spellings all over thenet.

Pāli: dukkhaSanskrit: duḥkhaLast edited by Jnana on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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by deepbluehum » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:27 pm

Sometimes it helps to break out of the translation hell to understand what the point is. Dukkha meansyou can't satisfy your desires.

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by Jnana » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:31 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Sometimes it helps to break out of the translation hell to understandwhat the point is. Dukkha means you can't satisfy your desires.

In the context of the first noble truth, the term encompasses the following:

The unsatisfactoriness of pain (dukkhadukkhatā):

birth (jāti)aging (jarā)illness (byādhi)death (maraṇa)sorrow (soka)lamentation (parideva)pain (dukkha)unhappiness (domanassa)despair (upāyāsā)

The unsatisfactoriness of change (vipariṇāmadukkhatā):

association with what is unpleasant (appiyehi sampayogo)separation from what is pleasant (piyehi vippayogo)not getting what is wanted (yampiccha na labhati)

The unsatisfactoriness of fabrications (saṅkhāradukkhatā):












the five clingingaggregates (pañcupādānakkhandhā)

The Abhidharmasamuccaya subdivides the above a bit differently as follows:

The unsatisfactoriness of pain (duḥkhaduḥkhatā):

birth (jāti)old age (jarā)sickness (vyādhi)death (maraṇa)association with what is unpleasant (apriyasamprayoga)

The unsatisfactoriness of change (vipariṇāmaduḥkhatā):

separation from what is pleasant (priyaviprayoga)not getting what is wanted (yad apīcchhan na labhate)

The unsatisfactoriness of fabrications (saṃskāraduḥkhatā):

the five clingingaggregates (pañchopādānaskandha)

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by Aemilius » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:28 am

Another Thanissaro word is "theme" for nimitta, normally translated as "sign". I think "theme" ismisleading, it is not helpful for better understanding. Your opinion ?svaha











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by Spiny Norman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:47 am

Jikan wrote:Some time ago I read Thanissaro Bikkhu's book _The Wings to Awakening,_where, if I remember correctly, he translated the Pali word dukkha as "stress" rather thanthe more conventional terms "suffering" or "sorrow" or "dissatisfaction."

I don't think "stress" is a particularly good translation of dukkha, and IMO "unsatisfactoriness" isbetter. Though perhaps it's best not to attempt to use a single word to capture the meaning.

CP

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