15922. N .R . MANDELA
5
Congress of Democrats?— Well . . .
I f you don't know say so?— I frankly do not
know; all that I know is that the Congress of Democrats
is an organisation of Europeans that tried to win the de-
mands set out in the Freedom Charter. I don't know i f 10
they go beyond that I ' d be surprised i f t hey do
but I 'm not au fait with the policy of the South African
Congress of Democrats.
Why would you be surprised if they did go
further?— Because they are committed to strive for the 15
winning of the demands set out in the Freedom Charter,
and those demands don't go this far 0
Now I want to put to you that this para-
graph is fully consistent with the policy of the South
African Congress of Trade Unions?— Again, my lords, 20
as far as I know the policy of the South African Congress
of Trade Unions, they fully support the Freedom Charter
but again . . . .
You make the same answer?— I make the same
answer. 25
Now I want to put to you - this same idea
with reference to the South African Indian Congress?—
My answer is the same0
Now the evidence has been that these lectures
were put forth by not only the African National Congress 30
but by the Secretariat of the National Action Council of
the Congress of the People?— That is so, my lords.
Have you any idea what prompted the other
organisations, other than the African National Congress
to subscribe to these lectures?—- That I cannot answer. 35
15923, R .N . MANDELA
Do you know whether the other organisations
in fact approved of the contents of these lectures?— No,
my lords, I do not know.
Do you know whether the African National Con-
gress approved of the contents of these lectures?— No,
my lords, I don't .
I t ' s possible?— It is possible, but I have no
information whatsoever,
Would it surprise you i f they had endorsed and
approved of the contents of these lectures?— The question
of the contents being distributed?
Yes?— No, I wouldn't be surprised.
In fact this is the type of lecture you would
expect them to put forth?— No, no, not the type of lec-
ture I would expect them to put forward; they have put
forward a number of lectures which have nothing to do with
this point of view, and I would expect them to distribute
amongst their members all points of view.
So far as you are aware, were any lectures put
out which expressed the point of view on Imperialism,
and Capitalism differing from the views on Imperialism
and Capitalism as expressed in these lectures?— No,my
lords, and I 'm not surprised because we are against
Imperialism, we want to destroy i t , my lords* and I
don't expect the Congress - - I would be surprised i f
it put forward lectures expressing that point of view.
Yes. You say that the Congress is opposed
to Imperialism?— Yes.
The Congress movement, does it not have defi-
nite views on the link between Imperialism and Capitalism?-
15924o N.R.MANDELA
Well, the Congress has no view on the link between Impe-
rialism and Capitalism. Individual members may feel that
ttere is a l ink , but from the point of view of Congress I 'm
not aware of the fact that it has any point of view on
the link between Imperialism and Capitalism.
R i g h t . . . . ? — I have hardly ever come across
a person expressing the viewpoint of the Congress - -
I'm taking Capitalism as such „ . .
You personally, Mr . Mandela, are you satisfied
that there is a strong l ink , a vital l ink between the two
? — Yes, I am personally satisfied about that.
I t ' s cleary of course, that these lectures
attack Capitalism?— That is so, my lords.
In no uncertain manner?— That is so , they do.
Now look at the next paragraph in "Change is
needed"; this is the paragraph entitled 'First things
f i r s t ' , page 661, line 4? where it sayss 'Prom this it
does not follow that the Congress movement is uninterested
and unconcerned in any changes that can be brought about
within the present sysbem of South African society,, Every
change that can be brought about whioh makes the l i fe of
the people easier is to be -valued and worked for. Every
change that makes easier and closer the day when the
whole Imperial? f4" system w i l l be overturned is something
to be worked for and valued. Such changes which do not
of themselves end Imperialist oppression are changes
which others outside the Congress movement, even opponents
of Congress, a]so want for their own reasons. It would
be childish anc foolish to say that because these others
are not preparedto go all the way with us in seeking to
15925a N .R . MANDELA
end Imperialism, therefore there can "be no short lived al- 5
liances with them for the immediate things we all want . '
Now, Mr, Mandela, as you understand this paragraph, it
suggests short lived alliances with other people who for
the moment are prepared to co-operate wion tne Congress
Movement, but who at some later stage - for whatever 1°
reason - may not go the whole way with you?-— Yes,
What groups do you think the author had in mind
?— Well , for example the Liberal Party may not be an
alliance going the whole way with us. I t ' s against
racial discrimination and to that extent they are allies , 15
but I do not know if they are with us on the question of
winning the demands set out in the Freedom Charter. I
think that is the type of thing which the author is re-
ferring to. There may be the Progressive Party; it also
in some way is an ally in the sense that they condemn 2 0
racial discrimination; they stand for the extension of
the franchise, but I understand . , .• .
The parting of the w ays is the economic reforms
? — Well , not only that. The Preedom Charter - the methods
used for winning those changes - I understand for examph 25
- this may or may not be true but I understand that
the Progressive Party , . .
BEKCER J ; Fell 9 was the Progressive Party in
existence at the time of the Indictment: period?— No, my
lord; this is just an illustration. But I understand 30
the Progressive Party for example - the leaders - have
condemned the economic boycott launched by Ghana against
South Africa , and it might well be that the Congress would
welcome that boycott; in fact it has been striving for 35
that.
15926. N.R. MANDELA
(Witness); I know the type of thing which is visualised
by the author here.
And it says, the concluding portion of this para-
graph says: ' It is from campaigns like this in which we
work with allies who we know wil l not always be with us
that we build up our strength and our support for the
great sweeping changes that must be made before Imperial-
ism is ended , ' ?— Yes, I see that.
Why is it accepted, the fact that these allies
will not always be with the Congress movement?— Well , I
don't know what the author had in mind c . .
Pausiig there, Mr. Mandela, when you made enquir-
ies, whowas indicated to you a s being the author of
these lectures?— Mr. L„ Bernstein. He was indicated to
me as being the author of these lectures*
I 'm sorry, I interrupted you - I asked you why
there was this appareht certainty that the allies would
not be always with the Congress Move- ent?— Well , I don't
know - t h a t is a question that could best be answered by
the author; it might well be that from experience he has
come to the conclusion that such all;.es would always behave
in this way - - I doi:r' know0
The Mr. ^-.msLcir to whom you refer, who is he?
Of what member i3 he an organisation?— He is a former
member of . t «
RUMPFI J; I think you mean of what organisation
is he a member?
MR. HOEXTER; Yes, my lordf I beg your lordship's
pardon; I thought that was whet I sa id . Of what organi-
sation was he a member?— He used to be a member of the
r
v 15927. N.R. MANDELA
Congress of Democrats, but he has since been banned. I 5
don*t know when he was banned.
Did you know him?— I know him.
Did you ever ask him whether he was the
author of these lectures?— No, I never discussed the
lectures with him, 1°
Now this paragraph 'First things f i r s t ' , the
question of short lived alliances, does this fit in with
the Congress viewpoint as known to you?— I don't even
know i f the Congress has a viewpoint on these alliances,
but speaking for myself I would agree with this . 15
Speaking for yourself?— I would agree with
this view.
Well , now, the next paragraph in this lecture
is the sweeping changes. This occurs at page 662 , Mr.
Mandela - to save time I won't read i t , just read it 20
through to yourself please and tell me when you have
completed your reading?-— Yes, I think it is consistent . . .
This paragraph fairly reflects the viewpoint
of the Congress?-- I think so, yes.
Now the nex" paragraph is the one with which 25
we have already dealt, ' Is it possible '?— There are one
or two sentences which are obscure.
Indicate them please?— If those sentences
indicate that the changes involve the destruction of
Capitalism, then of course it goes much further - - but 30
I don't read i " in that way, and to that extent it is
not inconsistent with the Congress viewpoints
RUIiPFF J ; May I just ask you this . Mr
Mandela. Would it be correct to say that it is the 3 5
15928. N.R. MANDELA
view of Congress and the alliance that Capitalism in
itself as such is bad - Capitalism in the political
sense, as against Socialism, for instance, but that
certain remnants of Capitalism, or certain elements of
Capitalism would still be tolerated?— That would be
most incorrect5 my lord. Congress has never discussed
the question of Capitalism in any shape or form, as far
as I am aware. The question simply has never been dis-
cussed at all . The quarrel is with Imperialism. But
Capitalism as such has never been on the Agenda in the
African National Congress, as far as I am aware,
MR. HOEXTER; As far as you personally are
concerned, Mr. Mandela, is it possible to male an intel-
ligent appraisal of Imperialism, its roots, and its effect
without considering Capitalism? Do you think i t ' s possible
to intelligently divorce the two?— Well , my lord, I have
not gone into the question of the theory or the growth of
Imperialism and its relationship to Capitalism. I only
know that a s far as Africa is concerned Imperialism has
a record of bloodshed ? violence and oppression, and I don't
want i t . The thoery behind it and its relation to Capital-
ism is irrelevant to mer and I have not gone into that.
But I know that this Imperiilioti c force has a record of
bloodshed and oppression, and it must go.
That you made clear, Mr, Mandela, but a l ittle
earlier this morning it wasput to you quite clearly whether
you personally were satisfied that there was a v ital link
between Imperialism and Capitalism; your answer was that
you personally considered there was such a l ink . Now my
question to you is this : in the light of your personal
conviction don't you think i t ' s a waste of time to consider
15929. N . R J M D E L A
Imperialism in isolation without considering how it is
related to the twin evil of Capitalism, from which on
some views it springs?— My lords, I may have said - - I
don't r emember - -
If you did say so, then you a i d i t ? — I know I
said that as far as I am concerned personally I am in 1 0
favour of a classless society? I don't favour Capitalism,
"but as to the link between Capitalism and Imperialism I
haven't gone into that. I don't want Imperialism, I
don't want Capitalism - as an individual; but whether
there is a link between the two and whether the one can
remain i f the other goes, I haven't gone into that ques-
tion.
Mr. Mandela, are you now suggesting that you
have not even at the most superficial level considered
whether the one is related to the other; is that your 2 0
answer?— My lords, I am absolutely frank in saying that
I haven't made any study whatsoever of how Imperialism is
related to Capitalism, Imperialism to me must go, and
I stand for a classless society. I don't want Capitalism
either, but as to the theoretical relationship between the 25
two that is a matter I have not gone into,
Yes0 Were the first two lectures, "The world
we live in" and "The country we live in" a bit of an eye
opener to you? Was it new stuff?— Well , insofar as they
describe the living conditions of the people under Imperial- 30
ism, there is probably nothing I did not know; "they may
have put it differently, the phraseology may be different
from mine, but in describing the conditions, the suffering
which has been brought about by Imperialism to the oppress-
ed people in the world and in South Africa , they confirm 35
15930, N . R . MANDELA
5
my own feelings.
You see, I got the impression from your evi-
dence that whatever the position was in regard to the
third lecture, the first two lectures - in the f irst two
lectures you found nothing at all which was in anyway 10 inconsistent with the viewpoint of the Congress Movement
and indeed, in any way inconsistent with your own view?—
I said so, yes, I said so.
Well , you accept then - - do I understand you
to say that this is the first time,on reading these lec-
tures, this is the first time that you see this type of
view propounded - this link between Imperialism and Capital
ism; is that the suggestion?— No, no, I 'm not suggesting
that at a l l . I may have read works which touched on the
relationship between Imperialism and Capitalism, but I have
not made any study of i t . I just don't understand nor am
I interested in that; all that I am concerned with is
that I don't want Imperialism, it mus"̂ go-
You see, just have a cursory look at the
first lecture and then I want you to tell me when you
strike any ideas that you may have encountered in your
earlier s t u d i o zi r e Mandela, i f you would please
look at page 631; there's a paragraph entitled 'Under-
standing the world ' ? at line 12 . 'Bitter struggles for
freedom and for the good things of l i fe which modern
knowledge and industry can give all men, go on everywhere
all the time. These are the struggles of our time and
i f we understand them and there is reason we can under-
stand the world we live in , its (yents and happenings ,
its history and its politics. I f we understand these
15931. N.R.MANDELA
struggles and learn how to direct themwe can direct the
course of the future, so that from all occurrences and
trends of to-day we wi l l be able to b uild for ourselves
the kind of world we would like to live in . The world
we live in is then a world divided into classes, into
masters and men. It is a world in which one small class
of men, the masters, those who own the tools, the machines,
the factories, the mines, the forests, the farms, live
from the work of the many, the working people who own
nothing but the ir ability to work. This system of some
living end growing rich through the work of others we
Call exploitation. ' Now, is it correct to say, Mandela,
that the struggle in South Africa of the Congress move-
ment is levelled firstly against national oppression,
and secondly, a gainst economic exploitation?— Yes.
Then the next paragraph in this lecture is
'What is your labour worth? ' . I don't want to waste
time on this; do you remember this paragraph?— Yes.
Does it appear to you to propound any theory
of economics which is held in any political ouarter?—
I don't know i f it does; all that I can say is that I
find it very interesting.
Yes. Good. Well , then, just look at the
concluding lines of this paragraph on page 635 , line
15 , in the middle of the page; having described this
theory of the value of labour, it s ayss 'Our world is
a world of class struggle where the workers struggle
against exploitation for the full value of their labour
and the masters struggle to exploit the workers as much
as possible for their own enrichment'. Now, is it fair
to say that that is the viewpoint, too, of the Congress
15932, N.R. MANDELA
Movement in South Africa , insofar as it accepts the libe-
ratory struggle in South Africa?— I don't think that the
Congress has a view on the class struggle. I don't think
so .
Wel l , l et ' s start from this point, Mr. Mandela;
I take it you won't suggest this is inconsistent with
the viewpoint of the Congress Movement?— No.
And I take it further that it is your own impres-
sion?— Oh, yes.
Do you know whether the South African Congress of
Trade Unions adopts any theory about the link between the
Liberatory movement and the struggle of classes?™ My lords,
I do not know.
Do you know whether the South African Congress
of Democrats sees the problem in that l ight?— No, my
lords, I don 't , except to say that I know that it fully
supports the Freedom Charter and they work for the realisa-
tion of its demands.
Yes. Then the next paragraph which is paragraph
8 is called 'Division by Nations' and it says: 'Our world
is not only divided into classes in each country, it is
also divided into nations0, different people living dif-
ferent sorts of lives in separate lands, and the struggle
of classes in our world has led to the conquest and en-
slavement of some nations by others". Now pausing there,
Mr.Mandela, i t ' s clear that the Congress movement holds
the view, and perhaps correctly, that there have been
conquests and enslavement of some nations by others?—Yes.
I put it to you that this is fully consistent
with the Congress movement viewpoint, that this has pro-
ceeded from the struggle of classes as is suggested in
15933. N.R.MANDELA
this paragraph?— Well, I repeat again that the Congress
has no policy, no view on the question of the class
struggle.
Is this your view, Mr. Mandela?— It i s .
Then it says« ' In the early days when the
wealth of the masters was made by slaves the masters
crossed the world for more and more slaves, using their
arms and weapons, gun powder and war ships - - the rulers
of those days conquered and herded like cattle the people
who st i l l lived by hunting or by tilling the soil , Africa
and Asia became the slave farms of the rulers of Europe
and terrible sufferingswere inflicted on the people. '
Is that last portion consistent with the viewpoint of
Congress?— I don't know i f it is consistent with the view-
point of Congress, but it is consistent with my own view.
Yes. So far as you know is it inconsistent
with the viewpoint of Congress?— No.
Just look at the next paragraph 9 , 'Conquering
the Colonies' . 'But in later,days the days of Capitalism,
a newkind of exploitation developed. In the countries of
Europe where industries developed f irst , England, France,
Holland, Germany, the masters in their search for ever
greater and greater profits looked around for cheaper and
cheaper labour, for cheaper and cheaper raw materials.
Again they turned to those lands where people were still
living as hunters and farmers without industries and
machines. To Africa and Asia , India and South America.
They conquered these countries by force of arms, forcing
the local native populations to work in grinding poverty
and exploitation in the mines, forests and plantations,
15934. N .R . MANDELA
where the raw materials for industry in Europe were pro-
duced.' Now that is mainly historical, but does it seem
to you to fit in with the Congress viewpoint?— Well , I
don't know if it fits in with the Congress viewpoint. It
may, it may not.
Is it your own?— It is my own.
Then paragraph 10 says, 'While the workers of
Europe, of the industrial countries, were themselves ex-
ploited as we have described, the workers of these Colo»
nies were exploited in a new way; they were often driven
to work by force, herded from their farms; by force -
almost slave workers. They were workers without rights
to change their jobs, stop work, go away, or do anything
except what they were ordered. Their wages were not even
enough to keep them alive and allow them to bring up
families. But there seemed to be such a great supply of
these Colonial semi-slaves that they could be worked to
death and allowed to die of diseases and hunger. These
were the Colonial workers as they are called. To keep them
in submission they were oppressed as a nation, denied all
the rights and privileges which workers have in the coun-
tries of Europe. All the skilled and well paid jobs were
closed to them. All the political rights were denied them.
They were exploited in a new way, a double exploitation - -
exploited as workers and oppressed and exploited as in-
ferior people - subject races . ' 'This is the exploita-
tion we call Imperialism, and those who suffer from it
we call the Colonial people' . Now, Mr . Mandela, does
that paragraph appear to you to be consistent with the
viewpoint of the Congress movement?— Again my answer is
15935 MR. MANDELA
the sane, my lords. I don't know i f it is consistent with
the viewpoint of the Congress movement, but it is certainly
consistent with my own viewpoint.
Yes. Do you find anything, any single sentence
in this paragraph, which you think might be inconsistent 10
with the viewpoint of Congress?— All I can say, ray lords,
is that the Congress has no view on the question of the
class struggle, but that I can find nothing inconsistent
with the policy of the A . N . C .
Looking at the concluding two sentences, Mr* 15
Mandela, does not the Congress Movement hold the view
that in this country there is a double exploitation of
the raasses of the people; that they are oppressed as a
natlonpl group and they are also exploited economically?—
No, not the A .N .C . - not the Congress. The Congress 20
holds the view that the African people are oppressed as
a nation; there may be members in the Congress who feel
that there is this double exploitation, but I am not aware
that the Congress has a view on this question.
Does not the Freedom Charter suggest that what 25
has to be cured is really a double exploitation?— No, it
does attack economic restrictions; it wants free economy.
Let 's have a look at the next paragraph, Mr.
Mandela. 'Struggle for Liberation ' . It says: 'Imperialism
has divided up t he whole world, not only into ports which
are owned by one or other of the Imperialist countries,
not only into Empires, but into two sections; the Colo-
nial countries of the world and the Imperialist countries,
and with that division has come new struggles; the
struggles and wars between the Imperialist countries them- 35
15936. N.R.MANDELA
10
15
selves for possession of the Colonies, and the right to
exploit then, and also the great unending struggle of
the peoples of the Colonial world against Imperialism
for the right to govern themselves, to live independent
of foreign masters, and to live as people equal with the
men of other nations.1 Pausing there, I take it that
you accept that as the viewpointof Congress?— I do, my
lords.
And i t ' s your own view?— Yes, it is my own
view,
I read further: 'Twice in the last fifty years
Imperialism has caused world wars in which every nation
in the world has been involved in the slaughter and des-
truction. Each of these wars has been fought because the
Imperialist powers have tried to re-divide the Colonies
between them. Between world wars Imperialism wages cease-
less war to subjugate and conquer new Colonial lands.
Today in Kenya and Malaya, yesterday in Korea and Indo-
china. and Palestine; before that in China, in Spain,
in Abyssinia, Imperialism lived by armed force and
terror and lived always in war . ' The second half , is
that in accord with the view held by the Congress move-
ment?— All I can say is that I see nothing in this
paragraph which is inconsistent with the policy of Con-
gress.
And i t ' s also your own view?— It is also my
own view, yes.
Then turning to paragraph 12 of this lec-
ture, 'Socialist World' , it says s 'But the struggle of
the people for their freedom cannot be held back by 35
20
25
30
15937. NR.MAUDELA
force and terror. In the age of Imperialism the peoples
struggle for their freedom has grown strong, strong
enough for whole sections of the world's people to "break
out of the net of Colonial oppression, and to achieve
their national independence, strong enough for whole sec-
tions of the world's people to hurst out of the net of
Capitalist exploitation. To overthrow the old system of
private ownership, of tools and machines and factories,
and to replace it with a new system, the system we call
Socialism where there are no passes and no exploited men
"but where all the factories and farms and mines and ma-
chines are owned in common by all the people who work
for their own benefit and are us£d not to make profits
for a f ew ' ?— It certainly is not the view of the S . A .
National Congress.
Do you say that this paragraph is inconsistent
with the African National Congress' view?— TheAfrican
National Congress has not discussed Socialism at a l l .
Is it not curious then, Mr. Mandela, that it
supports the Freedom Charter which on your own admission
that it seeks to support a form of Socialism now?— I dis-
agree. The Freedom Charter introduces Socialism in
respect of certain specified industries0, the gold mines,
the banks, and it seeks to break up the monopolies, and
there are reasons justified by our own local conditions
- i t ' s done by the State, it has Socialised certain in-
dustries; you would never argue that because the State
has socialised the Iron industry, that South Africa is a
Socialist State.
Pausing there for a moment, Mr. Mandela, what-
15938. N.R.MANDELA
5 ever the A . N . C . policy might have been, what seems to be
to you the central idea of this paragraph?— Socialism.
It seems to me that the central idea is the public owner-
ship of the means of production.
The destruction of Capitalism?— Yes. 10
Now you've already dealt with the next para-
graph, 'The world we live i n ' ; you know, that's the one
that contrasts the two groups of countries?— Yes.
Earlier this morning you seemed to agree v/ith
what was contained in this paragraph; would you read it 15
through again please; I don't want to waste time, and
tell me when you have completed your reading?— Yes.
Now I want to go through this bit by bit ; the
first senterc e says 'We live in a world divided into
Capitalists and workers who are exploited '?— Yes. 20
Is that your own view?— That's my own view.
Is that inconsistent with the viewpoint of
Congress in any way, as you know i t ? — Well , I can only
say that as far as I 'm aware the Congress has no view-
point at all on this. 25
Good. Then the next sentence says 'We live in
a world divided into Imperialist countries' , it mentions
them, which oppress and exploit the Colonial countries,
that is to say, America, Erance, Holland and Belgium, and
"We also live in a wild divided into two sections, in the 30
sense that Capitalism rules in the one group of countries,
and in the other group of countries exploitation of man
by man is being abolished' . Now, is that your view?
More or less it seems to me to be a little bit rigid .
Well . . ? — But more or less along those lines, 35
15939. N.R.MANDELA
yes.
Is it in any way inconsistent with the viewpoint
of Congress?— Except that I 'm not aware of any view-
point whatsoever of Congress on this matter.
So you cannot say whether i t ' s inconsistent 5
is that the position?— Yes, my lords.
(COURT ADJOURNED).
15
20
25
30
10
15940. 6/8/1960
N.R.MANDELA
MR. HOEXTERs My lords, the accused Ndimba
is still absent; I ask that your lordships proceed in
his absence until further notice.
KENNEDY Js What1 a the matter with him?
MR. HOEXTERs I understand that he 's still i l l ,
my lord.
RUMPFF J; Do you know anything about i t , Mr.
Fischer?
MR. FISCHER: My lords, he has an infection known
as Vincent's Angina, my lords, which is an infection which
takes effect when there is a vitamin deficiency. He has ^
been placed in hospital in order to try and remedy ths vitamin
deficiency, my lords.
RUMPFF J % Yes, very well , we will proceed in
his absence.
MR. HOEXTERs As your lordship pleases. 2 0
R.N . MANDELA (Contd0 under former oath);
XXD. BY MR. HOEXTER (Contd.) Mr. Mandela, when the Court . — 25
adjourned on Friday we had almost finished going through
the three lectures thatw ere put to you. You wil l recall
this paragraph in the third lecture entitled " I s it pos-
s i b l e ' ? — Could I look at it please?
Certainly, do so. While they are fetching the 30
book, Mr. Mandela, on page 663 of the record this will be
found?— Yes, I ' ve got i t .
Now this is the paragraph which describes the
State as an instrument which rules by armed force, and you
will recollect that at the beginning of the cross examina- 35
15941. N.R.MANDELA
tion I put to you whether this paragraph suggested any
line of political thought to you and you were not able to
remember. I ' d like to put to you very briefly Exhibit
NRM.l which was found in your possession, and I ' d like
you to look at a portion which was read into the record
at page 694-1 please. Mandela, I don't want to waste time
by reading this out aloud; i f you would look from line
2 on page 6941 you 'll find a passage beginning ' I f you
examine the State from the standpoint of this fundamental
d i v i s i o n . . . . ' and then it goes on to describe the State,
and one can sum it up by s aying it describes the State as
an apparatus of coercion. Would you just read through
that please, Mr. Mandela?— Yes, I ' ve read i t .
Now would you look then on page 6942, this is
an exerpt from the same exhibit NRM.l, line 16 , where there
is a passage which begins 'The State is a machine for main-
taining the rule of one class over another'; would you just
read through the paragraph which follcws on that?— Yes, I
have read it i up to page 9 on page 6943,
And lastly , Mr. Mandela, as far as this ex-
hibit is concerned, on page 6943, line 8 , aquotation from
page 17 of the Exhibit, which begins 'The State is a
machine for the oppression of one class by another' ; read
that please?— Yes.
Now, Mr, Mandela, would you agree with me that
the essential idea conveyed in these passages, in the
exhibit NRM.l, coincide broadly with the idea of the State
outlined in the three lectures A ,84 to A , 86?— I think so,
my lords, yes.
And does that also accord with your personal
15942o N.R.MLNDELA
views on the subject?— I don*t know about the theory -
there is a lot of theory here . . but my experience is
based purely oil the practical effect of the State theory . . .
Disregarding the theory, and taking it on your
imperical approach, does the Congress movement regard the
eUTect of State rule in the same way; would you s ay?
Well , the Congress movement hasn't discussed this question
of theory for obvious reasons. It does not refrain from
discussing this question because i t ' s negligent of its
duties, or because it has had no time, It has done so
& r very specific reasons. Congress has no special
ideology of philosophy beyond the broad aims of fighting
for equality, and it is the view of the African National
Congress that a discussion of these philosophical matters
might split the unity of the organisation, and because
of that the Congress has deliberately refrained from dis-
cussing this issue; so far as I am aware Congress has
no theory on the nature of the State- There may, of
course, be documents which say that insofar as this par-
ticular issue is concerned our State is a despotic state -
based on a ct' 1^ ?xpcrio^oe? not because of any theoretical
approach.
But whatever the underlying theory, that is
in fact what the Congress movement has decided about the
nature of the State, that i t ' s a despotic, fascist state
which rules by force?— Well , I don't know if there is un-
any formal decision. I am/aware that there has been a
discussion analysing what the nature of the State i s f
but there may have been documents which say "We condemn
the Government of South Africa because it is despotic",
15943. W.R. MANDELA
based purely on experience. 5
Now one last point as far as the lecture is con-
cerned, Mr. Mandela. In the same lecture, in the same
paragraph, the concluding portion, this is the paragraph
' Is it possible ' , the last paragraph says: ' It is clear
that such a rule as this cannot be set aside by minor 10
concessions and reforms. In the end such a s tate appara-
tus can never serve the ends of the people ' . Now, do you
agree with me that the idea there seems to be the complete
destruction of the State - in other words, the army, the
police force, the Civil Service, the Courts. The whole !5
apparatus of State w i l l have to be destroyed and replaced
by a new one I?— Well , not from my own reading of this
paragraph, but as far as I understand this paragraph all
that the author is saying is that this State based on ex-
ploitation and discrimination will make way for one which 20
is in a ccordance with the attributes of a Peoples Demo-
cracy, as defined by the author in the lecture. I f , on
the other hand, what he is saying here is that the insti-
tutions of the State as we know i t , the Parliament, the
army, the police force, the provincial councils, the 25
courts, wi l l be scrapped, and be replaced by a new form
of State without these institutions - then, of course,
that is contra to the policy of the African National
Congress, and I don't agree with i t .
30
Well , perhaps not that the new State will
succeed without these institutions, but the old institu-
tions will have to be completely scrapped and entirely
new institutions put in their place?— Well, i f he means
that, if he means that Parliament will go, the army will 35
15944. N.R. MANDELA
go f then that, of course, goes against the policy of the
African National Congress, and to that extent he is ex-
pressing his own point of view and not the point of view
of the Congress. Not even mine.
You wi l l recall that his lordship, the Presiding
10
Judge, questioned you on Priday about one of the require-
ments for a Peoples Democracy under the title "What is a
Peoples Democracy" - - the lecture mentions too, the Police
Porce and Army must be replaced by a genuire People's
Armed Guard. Do you remember that?— I remember that. 15
Well, does that not accord with Congress policy
~ with the viewpoint of Congress?— Well , I don't know what
he meant by using this phrase 'A genuine People's Armed
Guard to uphold the rights of the people ' , but as far as
I understand Congress policy when the demands set out in 20
the Preedom Charter are realised we w i l l have our ordinary
police force as it is to-day, and the army too, except,
of course, that it will break down the colour bar . The
police force will be there to carry out the normal police
duties done by the police force anywhere, and they will 25
deal with any situation which requires police duties.
But i f a particular situation is of such proportions that
it cannot be dealt with through the normal police duties
then, of course, the Army wil l be employed to deal with
such a situation. That is the ordinary use to which a
police force and a people's army wil l be used, and is
used.
Mre Mandela, I ' d like you to look please at
another exerpt from this NRM.l and I want to know in the
first place whether it accords with your personal view
15945a N.R.MANDELA
and will you therefore turn please to page 6956 of the
record, line 14 and do you see the short bit which reads
as follows; ' In order to overthrow Capitalism it was not »
only necessary to remove the bourgeosie from power, it
was not only necessary to expropriate the capitalists, but
also to smash entirely the bourgeous state machine and
its old army - its bureaucratic officialdom, and its
police force, and to substitute for it a new proletarian
form of state, a new socialist state. 1 Now, insofar as
the smashing of the bourgeous State machine is concerned,
and its organs, is that the way in which you see the pas-
sage to a Peoples Democracy, as sought by the Congress
movement? Do you see this as a necessary process, the
smashing of the State machine and all its organs as here
described?— Definitely not, my lords, Not as far as 20
the author has 3et out the attributes of a Peoples Demo-
cracy.
We are at cross purposes Mandela; disregard
the lectures for a moment and confine yourself to this
short passage in NRMS1; do you agree with this analysis 2'
of the situation, that the following things are neces-
sary before Capitalism can bo overthrown; do you per-
sonally consider this to be a correct exposition?— No,
not necessar i lymy lords. I f in the first place it means
that violence is the only necessary method to be employed 31
in bringing about a Socialist State, then, of course, my
own view - whatever the position might have been in other
countries - my own view is that it is not necessary in
this country to employ force and violence in order to bring about either the demands set out in the Freedom 35
15946. N.R. MANDELA
Charter, or even to bring about Socialism. I don't think
i t ' s necessary at all to do so.
Now disregarding the question whether force
is necessary or not, what is your comment there? Assume
that it can be a chieved without force, do you still see
the necessity for this radical substitution as far as
all organs of State are concerned?— In order to bring
about the demands of the Freedom Charter?
Yes?— Oh, no, not at a l l , my lords. I have
explained that our attitude, the attitude of Congress as
I understand i t , is that the institutions of the State
will remain as they are, e xcept that in content they will
be radically changed^ wherebefore it was an institution
confined only to members of one racial group, it will -
membership of that institution will be open to all races
in the country. But apart from that, the institutions
of the State wi l l not dismantle; they will remain exactly
as they are.
Now, that is how you understand the attitude
of the Congress?— Yes,-
Now leaving aside for a moment your under-
standing of the Congress viewpoint and coming back to
this paragraph in the lecture ' Is it possible ' , when he
says that such a State apparatus in the end cannot serve
the needs of the Congress people, how do you read that
paragraph?— I have already said that as far as I see it
there is no suggestion whatsoever in that paragraph that
the author has in mind the view that you wil l have to
smash up the present institutions of the State. I under-
stand him to mean that tiese institutions as citadels of
15947. JT.R. MANDELA
racial discrimination will have to go, but they will be
there open to all members of our multi-racial society;
that's how I understand i t . As I say, if he conveys
here the impression that these institutions will be smashed
up then, of course, that is not our policy.
One last question, Mr, Mandela, Banishing 1 0
from your mind what you may have been told about the iden-
tity of the author of these lectures, in the light of your
own reading, what do you think the political affilliation
of the author of these three lectures i s , or was at the
time when he w rote these lectures?-*- Well, my impression ^
is that the lectures are Leftist,
Communist?— Well , I don't know; it depends
what you mean by Communist; I think they are Leftist ,
Do you see anything in them whieh is inconsist*
20
ent with what you have gleaned of Communism from your own
readings?— Well , as I indicated, my lords, my own knowledge
of Marxism-Leninism is very, very, very elementary indeed.
So is mine, Mr. Mandela, but in the light of
such reading as you have done, such understanding as you
do have, do you find anything in these lectures which is
in any way inconsistent with your understanding of Commu-
nism?— Well, in the first place if there is a suggestion
in these lectures of force and violence as a means of at-
taining the Peoples Democracy, as described here, then, of
course, I don't agree with i t , my lords.
Mandela, I 'm sorry, my question may not hare
been clear. I 'm not asking you now whether or not you
agree with these lectures; that has been canvassed. The
question to you now is whether by your understanding of 35
15946* N.R.MANDELA
Communism, whether you find anything in these three lec-
tures which is inconsistent with Communism?— Well , as far
as I understand it - - I haven't engaged in any extensive
study . . .
You have been at pains to make that c l e a r , . , , ? —
I don't know whether we are ad idem about what we aretalk-
ing about. I am merely talking about Marxism; whether
that is the same thing as Communism I don't know, but I
am merely - - I have told you that I have read a l ittle
bit of Marxism, and as far as I have been able to under*
stand Marxism, i t ' s doctrine of force, is not necessarily
r method of attaining a Socialist State. Now if there
any suggestion in these lectures of force and violence
as a necessary means of bringing about changes to Social-
ism then, of course, whatever has happened in any other
country I don't agree with that.
You don't agree?— I don't agree as it applies
to our situation here.
Thank you. Now, you've put it on a theoretical
basis , Mr. Mandela; could you tell us please whether on
your reading of these three lectures there seems to be any
suggestion at all that the Peoples Democracy must, or might
be attained through violence; you've made it clear that
you don't agree with such a viewpoint, but on your reading
of the lectures, is it suggested by the lectures that that
is likely to arise?— I can 't agree - - to the passage
you have referred me, I can't agree . . .
Now I 'm nots uggesting the lectures do, I
want to know your impression of the lectures; whether
they suggest violence; you said just now ' I f these lectures
15949. N.R.MANDELA
imply the necessity for -violence then you don't agree?—
Yes.
Now the question i s , on your reading of these
lectures do they seem to you to imply violence?— Well ,
I 'm afraid that on my reading they don't seem to suggest
violence at a l l , but i f they do then, of course, I don't
agree.
Mr. Mandela, the question was put to you last
week in chief , whether on your understanding of Communism
and Marxiam-Dejiinien a revolution was always a necessity
in every country for the achievement of a Communist State
?-•• Wasn't it a violent revolution?
Or violence?— That's how I understood the
question.
Yes; and your answer was, I think, that you
felt that insofar as violence may have been implicit in
the writings of Marx and Lenin, and more specifically
in Communist manifestos, you felt that in the contemporary
world scene we had the assurance of Mr. Kruschschev that
that force would not always be necessary; it would depend
upon the conditions prevailing in any given country, to
decide whether it should be a forcible transition to
Communism, or whether the transition could be a peaceful
one. Is that your view?— Yes, my lords, it i s .
Now I ' d like to put a brief passage to you
contained in the exhibit, and I ' d like your personal com-
ments on i t . Would you look please at the issue of
"Fighting Talk" which was read into the record at page
3049; this is "Fighting Talk" of March 1956 , andthere
is an article in 'Fighting Talk' called "Kruschschev on
15950. N .R . MANDELA
Soviet Policy"; it purports to be a statement by Mr.
Krugchchev and I have frankly compared it with
another exhibit which is Kruschschev's speech at the
20th Congress of the Soviet Party and this article that
I am about to put to you seems to be an exerpt from the
10
15
20
original?— Yes.
The original is contained inPA.24. Now I*d
like you to look f irst , Mr. Mandela, at page 3049 of the
record,
RUMPFF J; Is it a long paragraph?
MR. HOEXTERs It»s very short, my lord,
RUMPFF J; Well, just read i t .
MR. HOEXTER; Yes; first of all , "Leninism
teaehes us that the ruling classes will not surrender
their power-voluntarily, and the greater or lesser intent
sity which the struggle may assume, the use or non-use
of violence in the transition to Socialism depends on the
resistance of the exploiters, on whether the exploiting
«3.ass itself resorts to violence rather than on the Pro-
letariat" . I take it that insofar as South Africa is
concerned, Mr. Mandela, and insofar as the achievement of
the Peopes Democracy by the Congress Movement in South
Africa is concerned, your view would be the same here,
that the possibility of violence is dictated in the first
place by whether or not the ruling classes resort to
30
violence?— Except that even when the ruling class uses
violence our own policy is not to resort to violence.
Yes; subject to that proviso, do you agree?—
It might be.
Now, as far as this article is concerned, I 35
15951. N.R . MANDELA
want to read you a short passage on page 350 and page 351?
the passage . . .
KENNEDY J: 3050 and 3051.
MR. HOEXTER; I beg your lordship's pardon, 3050
and 3051. I read first from 3050, line 27 , the concluding
paragraph on that page. The article sayss "The winning
of a stable parliamentary majority backed by a mass revo-
lutionary movement of the Proletariat, and of all the work-
ing people could create for the working class of a number
of Capitalist and former Colonial countries, the conditions
needed to secure fundamental social changes.' Then it goes
on on the next page, ' In the countries where Capitalism is
still strong, and has a huge military and police apparatus
at its disposal the reactionary forces w i l l , of course,
inevitably offer serious resistance; there the transition
to Socialism will be attended by a sharp class revolutionary
struggle*. Now, forgetting South Africa for a moment, on
your understanding of Communism is this the statement by
Mr. Kruschechev which you have in mind when you qualify
the writings of the old authors?— Yes. . . I 'm not looking
now, I saw the printed version of this statement, but it
rings familiar.
Yes , well , to sum up, what Kruschev says here
is that you get countries where you get a stable parlia-
mentary majority, if it is backed up by a revolutionary
movement, a mass revolutionary movement, in those coun-
tries your transition can be a peaceful one?— Yes.
But, he says, on the other hand, in countries
where Capitalism is strong, where you have this vast
military and police apparatus at the disposal of the State
15952 N .K . MANDELA
10
15
there you must expect serious resistance and you must ex-
pect that the transition to Socialism will be attended by
a sharp class revolutionary struggle?— Yes. I think that
statement appears in the printed version of the speech
which I have seen.
Yes; and do you accept that analysis of the
situation?— Well , firstly I do regard Kruschev as an ex-
pert on Marxist theory, but I don't regard what he says
ag necessarily binding on me; that is his view as an ex-
pert, and there are obviously other experts, but all that
I extract from that statement is that a peaceful transfor-
mation to Socialism is possible, and my little knowledge
that I have convinces me that such peaceful transitions
have been effected.
Do you also accept the factors he mentions
m the factors which will decide whether the transition is
to be peaceful or violent?— Well , from my own analysis
of conditions here I think it is possible in this country
to effect a peaceful transformation to Socialism, without
violence and without the necessity of being backed up by
a revolution, - just by using the ordinary institutions of
Parliament; I think that is possible,
Mr. Mandela, do you think i t ' s possible to
achieve a transformation to a Communist State in this coun-
try peacefully?— You keep on talking about a Communist
State; I talk about a Socialist State; I don't know i f
the two are the same. If you say that you a re using the
term Communist State in the same sense in which I use the
term Socialist State then perhaps we are ad idem, but I 'm
talking all the time about a peaceful transition to a 35
20
25
3C
10
15
15953. N.R.MANDELA
5
Socialist State? the two may be the same, I don't know.
But I ' d like you to either limit yourself to a transition
to a Socialist State, not a Communist State, because it may
mean a different thing. I don't know.
I appreciate the difficulty , Mr. Mandela, but
we were discussing it in the light of what Kruschev was say-
ing?— Yes. I think he talks about various forms of trans-
formation to Socialism.
Yes. But here he is obviously referring to
Socialism as Communism, not so; in this speeeh to which
you have had access?— Well , I don't know, but I am talking
about a transition to a Socialist State.
Well , l e t ' s have a look at a further article
in "Fighting Talk"? this one appears at page 3064 of the
record; I t ' s in "Fighting Talk" of November, 1956, and it
purports to be a letter by a person called Lionel Forman
to 'Fighting Talk'? i t ' s a letter about Socialism. Did
you know Lionel Forman?— Yes, I did.
And at page 3064- of the record the following
appears, i t ' s a very, very short passage, I ' l l read it to
yous ' In Britain , France, Italy and the United States for
example almostall Socialists are agreed that a decisive
Parliamentary victory by a popular front could pave the way
for a peaceful transition to Socialism because world
Capitalism is no longer in any position to intervene in
those countries as it did on behalf of Franco in 1935,
or in Quatimala (? ) last year' and he makes that statement
in the light of the previous statement as to whether the
transition should be peaceful or violent. Well , now, here
again we see this requirement of a decisive parliamentary 35
25
30
15954 N.R.MLNDELA
victory. Then in Kruschev's article it referred to a
'stable parliamentary majority 1?— Yes.
Now both these people seem to be implying that
you must have that - - that is the requirement before the
transition can be peaceable?— Yes. Well , they may
think so, but I certainly think that it is possible to
effect this transformation in the ordinary course of
using parliamentary institutions. I f I may illustrate it
fs?om the little knowledge that I have, my lords.
RUMPPF J ; Yes?— I understand from the mate-
15
r^al that I have read about Hungary that such a pea»eful
transformation was in fact effected, and this is the back»
ground of i t . Shortly before the War Hungary was under *
the pro^az-i dictatorship of Admiral Hoethy. During the
War, that is the last War, Hungary was liberated by the 20
Red Army, and the Hoethy dictatorship was set aside .
Immediately after that a number of parties which were
illegal under the Hoethy dictatorship emerged, and these
included the Communist Party, the Smallholders Party,
and the Social Democrats. These three parties formed a 25
Coalition on a common programme of land reforms and of
cleaning ^ut Fascist influence and Pas cist ideology, and
of co-operation, peaceful co-operation with neighbouring
States. How this Coalition came into power with the
Smallholders Party having the ma jority°7 in the G-ovornment
the Smallholders Party had eight Cabinet posts, the
Communist Party four, the Social Democrats four, and
I think one to the National Peasants Party. In a sub-
sequent election in 1947 the Coalition, now without the
Smallholders Party - the Communist Party, the National 35
15955 N.F-. MANDELA
Peasants Union and the Social Democrats - came into power 5
and the Communist Party scored a sweeping victory - gaining
about 60io of the votes, and it came into power in Hungary,
and up to the present time it is in power and it has brought
about a Socialist society in Hungary. Now, I am not aware
from the l ittle reading that I ' v e done, I am not aware that
it was backed by any revolutionary organisation. It was a
peaceful transformation that was effected. Just to make
sure that this was no accident - in the State of Kerala in
India such a peaceful transformation was effected there too,
where the Communist Party became the ruling power. It i s ,
of course, true that there was intervention by the Indian
Central Government and the Communist Party there is no
longer in power, but even that brief period when the Commu-
nist Party was in power does illustrate the principle that
20
it is possible to effect a peaceful transformation. Now
I think that such peaceful transformation could take place
even much more easily in our own country here, with our
own conditions . . . MR. HOEXTBR;
Provided you got a stable parliamentary majority
? — Yes. Oh, yes, 2 5
Now, what prospects do you think there were
during the period of the Indictment of achieving a stable
parliamentary majority of a Socialist Party?— Well , I
don't know in the first place i f the lectures are written
with the view that these changes will take place during
the period of the Indictment; I have never known, and
of course the author is the best person to explain that,
but as far as we are concerned and as far as I have been
able to understand Congresspolicy, the demands set out in
the Preedom Charter will be attained in the foreseeable 3 5
^ % - > 15956. n .R , MANDELA
future. It may be ten years, it may be twenty years, it
may be twenty-five years - it may be five years, but it
was in the foreseeable future; we did not visualise that
these demands would be realised in two years time, in
five years time.
That I accept, Mr. Mandela; is your answer then 1 0
this , that you expected within foreseeable time the gaining
of a stable parliamentary majority in this country by a
^ Socialist Party?— I 'm talking now about a Peoples Demo-
eraey, as referred to in the lectures. I thought when you
were referring to the period of the Indictment you had in ^
mind the attainment of a Peoples Democracy. I f we are
talking about Socialism the African National Congresshas
never had the question of the transformation to a Socialist
society in its programme at a l l . It never thought about
this question at a l l , to say nothing about the period of 2 0
the Indictment.
Well , leaving aside the African National Con-
gress for the moment, the examples you have cited in
^ Hungary and Karela, do they not support the view we have
looked at by Kruschev and Lionel Forman . . ? — I really
don't know; that I don't know.
The view that the transition to Socialism as
employed by them, that transition can be peaceful i f there
is a stable parliamentary majority?— I really don't know
what they accept and what they do not accept,
V/ell, i t ' s obvious from their articles what
they accept; the articles say implicitly in one class
or state you can have a peaceful transition; that 's the
case where there is a stable parliamentary majority. 35 r
15957. N .R . MANDELA
How do you agree with that, or have you no views on the
subject?— Well, in the first place our policy is one of
exerting pressure on the Government J depending on the
strength of that pressure the Government may capitulate
to our demands and grant all the demands set out in the
Freedom Charter without us being in Parliament, or the
voters might say 'We have changed; we will elect into
power a government which will negotiate with these people'
and they'll do so. Now, a s far as we are concerned,
there wil l be no represen t ation at all at that time in
Parliament, but because of our extra-parliamentary pres-
sure we might attain our demands without any stable par-
liamentary majority at al l . Of course, our aim is to go
to parliament and to use that parliament, but the method
which we are using now is extra-parliamentary, and those
methods in our view will bring us the things that we want.
But you say you conceive of a position where the
Government might be forced to meet all your demands at a
stage when the African National Congress has not yet
achieved any parliamentary representation at all?— Yes,
oh yes.
Now you've mentioned two possibilities ; first
of all the Government of its own volition may be forced
to recognise the demands of the Freedom Charter; the
second possibility is that although the Government, the
ruling party as such, may remain adament, the pressure
of the voters may be such that the Government will be
forced to resign?— Yes.
Is there a third possibility?— Yes, there
is the other possibility which I discussed in reply to
I think by his lordship, the Presiding Judge, i f I
15958. N .R . MANDELA
remember correctly. I gave an example here of how we
hope it might be possible for us to get our demands
accepted in full by the G-overnment. I think that as a
result say of a campaign of civil disobedience the
Government says "Gentlemen, I t ' s talk" / 'we are afraid
that we wil l not be able to carry the European popula-
tion with us on pur demands, we would suggest that we
give you fifty seats to be occupied by Africans; in
the next five years we suggest that w e should extend
it in educa-ting the country to accept your demands ' %
I think you have explained that to us , Mr.
Mandela?— Yes. "You would then have fifty African
members in Parliament;at the emd of five years we might
talk again" and the Government then might say "We will
now give you another fifty members" ? we would then
have a stable parliamentary majority and with that
majority we can say 'We declare for Socialism in this
•ountry' .
Mr. Mandela, is there a further possibility
that the application of pressure by the Congress Move-
ment might result in strong counter pressure by the
Government, the ruling class, and that there would be
violence?— Well , that possibility is always there, is
but in fact the view/held is that the more pressure we
exert the more the Government might harden. Now, that
might well be so, but we believe that our policy will
bring down the Government in spite of its intentions.
We believe that already in this country there is a large
body of voters who are hostile to the policy of the
Government, and we believe that because of pressure, both
15959. N.R'. MAUDE IA
externally and internally, this Government, in spite and 5
notwithstanding the fact that it might believe that it
can deal with any situation here with armed force, we
believe that through all the pressure, internally and
externally, the Government will be brought to realise
that its policy is futile . I think even today the
statement has been made that South Africa is the
of the Commonwealth. Countries which used to support
the racial policies of South Africa have turned against
them and condemned them, and we believe that this is
because of the mounting pressure the African National 15
Congress continues to bring.
KENNEDY Ji Mr. Mandela, assuming you were
wrong in your beliefs , do you visualise any future action
on behalf of the Government, by the Government?— Well ,
my lord . . . 20
Because I think the evidence suggests that you
could not expect the Government to soften in its views.
Have you any future plans in that event?— No, my lord.
I don't think that the Congress has ever believed that
its policy of pressure would ultimately f a i l . The Con- 25
gress, of course, does not expect that one single push
to coerce the Government to change its policy will suc-
ceed; the Congress expects that over a period, a s a
result of a repetition of these pressures, together with
world opinion, that the Government notwithstanding its 3°
attitude of ruling Africans with an iron hand, that not-
withstanding that, the methods which we are using will
bring about a realisation of our aspirations.
MR. HOEXTER; Mr. Mandela, whether or not 35
15960. N,R.MANDELA
there would be success ultimately, one thing is clear,
is it not, and that is that the African National Congress
held the view, and propagated the view, that in resisting
pressure by the Congress Movement the ruling class, the
Government, would not hesitate to retaliate - would not
hesitate to use violence and armed force against the
Congress movement?— Yes? the Congress was of that view,
my lords. We did expect force to be used, as far as the
Government is concerned, but as far as we are concerned
we took the precautions to ensure that that violence will
not come from our side.
BEKKBB J: What vie re those precautions?-- Well ,
my lord, for example in 1952 when we lodged the Defiance
Campaign, and secondly, my lord, you will notice that we
frequently use 'stay at home' not 'strike' in the ordinary
sense. Now, my lord, in a strike what is usually done is
to withdraw workers from a particular industry and then
have pickets to prevent the people from working in those
industries which are boycotted. But the Congress theory
that to have pickets might attract police violence, we
deliberately decided to use 'stay at home' where people
are asked to remain in their houses.
KENNEDY Js Supposing didn't stay in their
houses?— Well, my lord, we frequently speak to people
and tell them . . .
Can any organisation expect a hundred per-
cent unanimity of action by the people, the majority of
which might stay at home?— Well, there may be instances
when people do not behave in the manner in which we
have asked them to behave . . .
Yes, one must be realistic?— I understand.
15961 IT .R . M/JDELA
We are realistic , ray lord . . . . 5
You don't get a hundred percent of the people
who are with you?— That is quite correct, my lord.
Well , then, what is the attitude of the Con-
gress towards those people who do not agree with the
policy of Congress?— Except that in our experience we
find that people follow and agree with the policy of
non-violence. I have referred to the question of the
Defiance Campaign, my lord.
I 'm not talking about that; I 'm talking about
your question of pickets. Supposing you got 10 ,000
people v/ho agree with you and 2,000 people who say : "We
are not going to stay at home, we are going to work" -
what did you expect?— Well , my lord, in the first place
we have not had that experience; we have not had people,
when we say 'We are calling a stay at home' saying "No,
we are going to go and picket". We haven't had that
experience, my lord.
Have you had no picketing at all?— Not in
the s ense of people going to stand at the factories and
stopping people, but in 1950, my lord, there were peo- 25
pie, as people who had gone to work were coming back -
there were people who congregated at the station at
Orlando. Now, whether those people were going to assault
those who were returning from work, I don't know, but
there were people who congregated - - but we emphasised
on our side the fact that we are running the campaign
as a non-violent campaign, and we went further and said
to our foil overs, " look, there must be no intimidation. . . "
Yes, I only took this point, because you
yourself used the question of piclets. Now, as I under- 35
Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812
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