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Meet the Press Transcript
December 7, 2008
MR. TOM BROKAW: Our issues this Sunday: In 44 days, Barack
Obama will become the 44th president of the United States. His
new team is almost complete. But since Election Day 2008, the
list of challenges facing the incoming president has only grown:
that terrorist attack in Mumbai, growing turmoil in the financial
markets, the worst unemployment in 15 years, and the autoindustry on the verge of bankruptcy. Tough problems all waiting
on the desk of our exclusive guest, the president-elect of the
United States, Barack Obama.
And yesterday in Chicago I did sit down with the president-elect,
Barack Obama, to talk about those topics and much more.
President-elect Obama, welcome back to MEET THE PRESS.
PRES.-ELECT BARACK OBAMA: Great to be here. Thank you.
MR. BROKAW: Very nice to have you with us. As we saw in the
opening, the world has gotten considerably worse since your
election. There is no evidence that it's cause and effect, you
should be happy to know. But, nonetheless, we now are officially
in a recession. It's around the world, and most analysts think it's
going to get worse before it gets better. Sixty-seven years ago
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this day, one of your predecessors, Franklin Roosevelt, faced Pearl
Harbor.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: What are the differences between his challenges
and the ones that you face?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, first of all, I think it's important for
us to remember that as tough as times are right now, they're
nothing compared to what my grandparents went through, what
the "greatest generation" went through. You know, at this point
you already had 25, 30 percent unemployment across the
country, and we didn't have many of the social safety nets that
emerged out of the New Deal. So there's no doubt that Franklin
Roosevelt had to re-create an entire economic structure that had
entirely collapsed, and we've got some strengths that he didn't,
he didn't have.
But, look, if you look at the unemployment numbers that came
out yesterday, if you think about almost two million jobs lost so
far, if you think about the fragility of the financial system and the
fact that it is now a global financial system, so that what happens
in Thailand or Russia can have an impact here, and obviously,
what happens on Wall Street has an impact worldwide, when you
think about the structural problems that we already had in the
economy before the financial crisis, this is a big problem and it's
going to get worse. And, and one of the things that I'm
constantly mindful of are all the people I met during the
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campaign who were already struggling before things got worse.
You know, mothers and fathers who were working hard every day
but didn't have health care, couldn't figure out how to send their
kids to college. Now they're looking at pink slips, jobs being
shipped overseas that devastate entire towns. And that's why my
number one priority coming in is making sure that we've got an
economic recovery plan that is equal to the task.
MR. BROKAW: Here's what you had to say a short time ago to
the national conference of governors. It was kind of a reality
check for them to put it in some kind of a context. Let's share
that with our audience now, if we can.
(Videotape, Tuesday)
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We're going to have to make hard
choices. Like the ones that you're making right now in your state
capitals, we're going to have to make in Washington. And we are
not, as a nation, going to be able to just keep on printing money;
so, at some point, we're also going to have to make some long-
term decisions in terms of fiscal responsibility and not all of those
choices are going to be popular.
(End videotape)
MR. BROKAW: On this program about a year ago, you said thatbeing a president is 90 percent circumstances and about 10
percent agenda. The circumstances now are, as you say, very
unpopular in terms of the decisions that have to be made. Which
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are the most unpopular ones that the country's going to have to
deal with?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, fortunately, as tough as times are
right now--and things are going to get worse before they get
better--there is a convergence between circumstances and
agenda. The key for us is making sure that we jump-start that
economy in a way that doesn't just deal with the short term,
doesn't just create jobs immediately, but also puts us on a glide
path for long-term, sustainable economic growth. And that's why
I spoke in my radio address on Saturday about the importance of
investing in the largest infrastructure program--in roads and
bridges and, and other traditional infrastructure--since the
building of the federal highway system in the 1950s; rebuilding
our schools and making sure that they're energy efficient; making
sure that we're investing in electronic medical records and other
technologies that can drive down health care costs. All those
things are not only immediate--part of an immediate stimulus
package to the economy, but they're also down payments on the
kind of long-term, sustainable growth that we need.
MR. BROKAW: To give an indication of how quickly things change
now, at warp speed, when you and I last saw each other, six
weeks ago, I think it was, in Nashville, when I asked you your
priorities, you said health care, energy and education would be
your top three priorities.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
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MR. BROKAW: You didn't anticipate at that time that you would
have to outline this kind of a stimulus program. The real question
in the stimulus program that you have just described and as you
shared with, with the American audience in your radio address is
how quickly will it mean jobs out there across America and how
much is it going to cost and who's going to pay for it?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think we can get a lot of work done
fast. When I met with the governors, all of them have projects
that are shovel ready, that are going to require us to get the
money out the door, but they've already lined up the projects and
they can make them work. And now, we're going to have to
prioritize it and do it not in the old traditional politics first wave.
What we need to do is examine what are the projects where
we're going to get the most bang for the buck, how are we going
to make sure taxpayers are protected. You know, the days of just
pork coming out of Congress as a strategy, those days are over.
How much it's going to cost? My economic team is examining
that right now. And one of the things I'm very pleased with is
how fast we've gotten a first-rate economic team in place, the
fastest in modern history. They are busy working, crunching the
numbers, looking at the macro-economic data to make a
determination as to what the size and the scope of the economic
recovery plan needs to be. But it is going to be substantial. One
last point I want to make on this is that we are inheriting an
enormous budget deficit. You know, some estimates over a trillion
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dollars. That's before we do anything. And so we understand
that we've got to provide a, a, a blood infusion into the patient
right now to make sure that the patient is stabilized, and, and
that means that we, we can't worry short term about the deficit.
We've got to make sure that the economic stimulus plan is large
enough to get the economy moving.
MR. BROKAW: One of the great concerns in this country, of
course, is additional job loss, which would be considerable if the
Big Three in the auto industry in this country--GM, Ford and
Chrysler--were to go down. That drama has been playing out in
Washington and across America. Do you think the Big Three
deserve to survive?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I, I think that the Big Three U.S.
automakers have made repeated strategic mistakes. They have
not managed that industry the way they should have, and I've
been a strong critic of the auto industry's failure to adapt to
changing times--building small cars and energy efficient cars that
are going to adapt to a new market. But what I've also said is, is
that the auto industry is the backbone of American
manufacturing. It is a huge employer across many states.
Millions of people, directly or indirectly, are reliant on that
industry, and so I don't think it's an option to simply allow it to
collapse. What we have to do is to provide them with assistance,
but that assistance is conditioned on them making significant
adjustments. They're going to have to restructure, and all their
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stakeholders are going to have to restructure. Labor,
management, shareholders, creditors--everybody's going to
recognize that they have--they do not have a sustainable
business model right now. And if they expect taxpayers to help in
that adjustment process, then they can't keep on putting off the
kinds of changes that they, frankly, should have made 20 or 30
years ago. If, if they want to survive, then they better start
building a fuel-efficient car. And if they want to survive, they,
they've got to recognize that the auto market is not going to be
as large as some of their rosy scenarios that they've put forward
over the last several years.
MR. BROKAW: It's pretty clear that the Democrats are going to
try to get them a bridge loan to get through the short term, but
it's the long term that is the larger question here.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: A number of people--Paul Ingrassia, as a Pulitzer
Prize-winning reporter from The Wall Street Journal has said we
ought to have a government-structured bankruptcy and maybe
even an automobile czar of some kind. One name that has come
up is Jack Welch, the former CEO of GE, the parent company of
NBC. Does that kind of plan have any appeal for you?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, there are a lot of discussions taking
place right now between members of Congress, the Bush
administration. I've had my team have conversations with these
folks to see how can you keep the automakers' feet to the fire in
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making the changes that are necessary. But understand, these
aren't ordinary times. You know, some people have said let's just
send them through a bankruptcy process. Well, even as large a
company as GM, in ordinary times, might be able to go through a
Chapter 11 bankruptcy, restructure, and still keep their business
operations going. When you are seeing this kind of collapse at
the same time as you've got the financial system as shaky as, as
it is, that means that we're going to have to figure out ways to
put the pressure on the way a bankruptcy court would, demand
accountability, demand serious changes. But do so in a way that
it allows them to keep the factory doors open. And, you know,
right now there's a number of discussions about how to do that,
and I hope that we're going to see some short-term progress in
the next few days. My economic team is focused on what we
expect to inherit on January 20th, and we'll have some very
specific plans in terms of how to move that forward.
MR. BROKAW: But help me out here. Are you looking at the
possibility of some kind of a government structure that runs that
reorganization?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: I--we don't want government to run
companies. Generally, government historically hasn't done that
very well. What we want...
MR. BROKAW: Not to run the companies but...
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: But...
MR. BROKAW: ...to run the terms.
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PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, what, what we do need is, if
taxpayer money is at stake, which it appears may be the case, we
want to make sure that it is conditioned on a auto industry
emerging at the end of the process that actually works, that
actually functions. The last thing I want to see happen is for the
auto industry to disappear. But I'm also concerned that we don't
put 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever billion dollars into an industry,
and then, six months to a year later, they come back hat in hand
and say, "Give me more." Taxpayers, I think, are fed up. They're
going through extraordinarily difficult times right now, and they
want to see the kind of accountability that, that, that,
unfortunately, we haven't always seen coming out of Washington.
MR. BROKAW: But under that organization or any reorganization
that you settle on...
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: ...should the current management be allowed to
stay in their jobs?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Here's what I'll, I'll say, that it may not be
the same for all the, all the companies, but what I think we have
to put an end to is the head-in-the-sand approach to the auto
industry that has been prevalent for decades now. I think, in
fairness, you have seen some progress made incrementally in
many of these companies. You know, they have been building
better cars now than they were 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. They
are making some investments in the kind of green technologies
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and, and the new batteries that would allow us to create plug-in
hybrids. What we haven't seen is a sense of urgency and the
willingness to make tough decisions. And what we still see are
executive compensation packages for the auto industry that are
out of line compared to their competitors, their Japanese
competitors who are doing a lot better.
Now, it's not unique to the auto industry. We have seen that
across the board. Certainly, we saw it on Wall Street. And part
of what I'm hoping to introduce as the next president is a new
ethic of responsibility where we say that, if you're laying off
workers, the least you can do, when you're making $25 million a
year, is give up some of your compensation and some of your
bonuses. Figure out ways in which workers maybe have to take a
haircut, but they can still keep their jobs, they can still keep their
health care and they can still stay in their homes. That kind of
notion of shared benefits and burdens is something that I think
has been lost for too long, and it's something that I'd like to see
restored.
MR. BROKAW: Let's talk for a moment about consumer
responsibility when it comes to the auto industry. As soon as gas
prices began to drop, consumers moved back to the larger cars
once again, to SUVs and the big gas consumers.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: Why not take this opportunity to put a tax on
gasoline, bump it back up to $4 a gallon where people were
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prepared to pay for that, and use that revenue for alternative
energy and as a signal to the consumers those days are gone.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well...
MR. BROKAW: We're not going to have gasoline that you can just
fill up your tank for 20 bucks anymore.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, keep, keep in mind what's happening
in--to families all across America. Yes, gas prices have gone
down. But, in the meantime, maybe somebody in the family's
lost their job. In the meantime, their housing values have
plummeted. In the meantime, maybe their hours have been cut
back. Or if they're a small-business owner, their sales have gone
down 50, 60, 70 percent. So putting additional burdens on
American families right now, I think, is a mistake. What we have
to do long term is make sure that we have an energy strategy
that focuses on fuel-efficient cars, that focuses on providing
incentives for fuel-efficient cars. Same applies to buildings. We
have a enormously inefficient building stock, and we can save
huge amounts of energy costs and reduce our dependence on
foreign oil by simple things like weatherization and changing the
lighting in, in major buildings. That's going to be part of our
economic recovery plan. It actually allows us to spend some
money, put some people to work right away, but it also creates a
long-term, sustainable energy future. And I think making some
of those investments in ensuring that we change our auto fleet
over the next several years, that's going to be important as well.
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MR. BROKAW: The other big financial storm that continues to
build out there, of course, are mortgages. You said recently that
is an area of particular concern to you. The chairman of the
Federal Reserve, Bernanke, said recently that something that--
needs to be done urgently. During the course of the campaign,
you suggested a three-month moratorium. Is that still part of the
policy that you would like to have begun when you become
president of the United States? And what else needs to be done
to do something about mortgages?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I, I'm having my team examine all
the options that are out there. I'm disappointed that we haven't
seen quicker movement on this issue by the administration. And
we have said publicly and privately that we want to see a package
that helps homeowners not just because it's good for that
particular homeowner, it's good for the community. When you
have foreclosures, property values decline and you get a
downward spiral all across America. It's also good for the
financial system because keep in mind how this financial system
became so precarious in the first place. You, you had a huge
amount of debt, a huge amount of other people's money that was
being lent, and speculation was taking place on--based on these
home mortgages. And if we can strengthen those assets, then
that will strengthen the financial system as a whole.
So I think a moratorium on foreclosures remains an important
tool, an important option. I think we also should be working to
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figure out how we can get banks and homeowners to renegotiate
the terms of their mortgages so that they are sustainable. The
vast majority of people who are at threat of foreclosure are still
making monthly payments, they want to stay in their homes,
they want to stay in their communities, but the strains are
enormous. And if we can relieve some of that stress, long term
it's going to be better for the banks, it's going to be certainly
better for the community, it's going to be better for our economy
as a whole. This is going to be a top priority of my
administration.
MR. BROKAW: Have you personally conveyed your
disappointment to the administration or had your economic
advisers get in touch with Hank Paulson and say, "Why aren't you
doing more about mortgages?"
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We, we have specifically said that, moving
forward, we have to have a housing component to any actions
that we take. If we are only dealing with Wall Street and we're
not dealing with Main Street, then we're only handling one-half of
the problem.
MR. BROKAW: And finally, what about those homeowners out
there who are struggling to do the responsible thing, to pay their
mortgages?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
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MR. BROKAW: And now they look across the street and the
neighbor may be getting bailed out. So they feel they're the
victim of a double whammy.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: They're paying their taxes to bail out the guy
across the street and struggling to pay their mortgages. Why
wouldn't they just take a walk on their mortgage and say, "I want
in on that"?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, look, that, that's one of the tricky
things that we've got to figure out how to structure. We don't
want what you just described, a moral hazard problem where you
have incentive to act irresponsibly. But, you know, if my
neighbor's house is on fire, even if they were smoking in the
bedroom or leaving the stove on, right now my main incentive is
to put out that fire so that it doesn't spread to my house. And I
think most people recognize that even if there were some poor
decisions made by home buyers, that right now our biggest
incentive is to make sure that the housing market is
strengthened. I do think that we have to put in place a set of
rules of the road, some financial regulations that prevent the kind
of speculation and leveraging, that we saw, in the future.
And so, as part of our economic recovery package, what you will
see coming out of my administration right at the center is a
strong set of new financial regulations in which banks, ratings
agencies, mortgage brokers, a whole bunch of folks start having
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to be much more accountable and behave much more responsibly
because we can't put ourselves--we, we can't create the kind of
systemic risks that we're creating right now, particularly because
everything is so interdependent. We've got to have transparency,
openness, fair dealing in our financial markets. And that's an
area where I think, over the last eight years, we've fallen short.
MR. BROKAW: Mr. President-elect, we're going to take a break.
When we come back, we're going to talk about taxes, the fallout
from Mumbai, obviously, Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot more to talk
about when we continue here on MEET THE PRESS with this
exclusive interview with the President-elect.
(Announcements)
MR. BROKAW: More of our exclusive interview yesterday in
Chicago with President-elect Barack Obama after this brief station
break.
(Announcements)
MR. BROKAW: We're back with President-elect Obama. We want
to talk about taxes. That was a central piece of your campaign.
Here's what you had to say.
(Videotape, April 15, 2008)
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We need to roll back the Bush-McCain tax
cuts and invest in things like health care that are really
important. Instead of giving tax breaks to the wealthy, who don't
need them and weren't even asking for them, we should be
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putting a middle class tax cut into the pockets of working
families.
(End videotape)
MR. BROKAW: Have the economic conditions changed what you
hoped to do about taxes? When Bill Daley, your friend and
economic adviser, was on this broadcast two weeks ago, and I
raised the question about whether you would raise taxes on those
earning $250,000 or more a year, he gave a very strong
indication that you would probably not do that, you would let the
Bush tax cuts play out until 2011. Is that your plan?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, understand what my original tax plan
was. It was a net tax cut. Ninety-five percent of working families
would get tax relief. To help pay for that, people like you and me,
Tom, who make more than a quarter million dollars a year, would
play--pay slightly more. We'd essentially go back to the tax rates
that existed back in the 1990s. My economic team right now is
examining do we repeal that through legislation? Do we let it
lapse so that when the Bush tax cuts expire they're not renewed
when it comes to wealthiest Americans? And we don't yet know
what the best approach is going to be, but the overall thrust is
going to be that 95 percent of working families are going to get a
tax cut, and the wealthiest Americans, who disproportionately
benefited not only from tax cuts from the Bush administration but
also disproportionately benefited when it comes to corporate
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profits and where the gains and productivity were going, they are
going to give up a little bit more. And it turns out that...
MR. BROKAW: But right away or 2011?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, as I said, my economic team's taking
a look at this right now. But, but I think the important principle--
because sometimes when we start talking about taxes and I say I
want a more balanced tax code, people think, well, you know,
that's class warfare. No. It, it turns out that our economy grows
best when the benefits of the economy are most widely spread.
And that has been true historically. And, you know, the real
aberration has been over the last 10, 15 years in which you've
seen a huge shift in terms of resources to the wealthiest and the
vast majority of Americans taking home less and less. Their
incomes, their wages have flatlined at a time that costs of
everything have gone up, and we've actually become a more
productive society.
So what we want to do is actually go back to what has been the
traditional pattern. We have a broad-based middle class,
economic growth from the bottom up. That, I think, will be the
recipe for everybody doing better over the long term.
MR. BROKAW: Your vice president, Joe Biden, said during the
course of this campaign it would be patriotic for the wealthy to
pay more in taxes. In this economy, does he still believe that?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I--you know, I think what Joe meant
is exactly what I described, which is that if, if our entire economic
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policy is premised on the notion that greed is good and "What's in
it for me," it turns out that that's not good for anybody. It's not
good for the wealthy, it's not good for the poor, and it's not good
for the vast majority in the middle. If we've learned anything
from this current financial crisis--think about how this evolved.
You had a situation in which you started seeing home foreclosures
rise. You had a middle class that was vulnerable and couldn't
make payments. Suddenly, all the borrowing that had been--and,
and, and all the speculation that had been premised on those
folks doing OK, that starts evaporating. Next thing you know,
you've got Lehman Brothers going under. People used to think
that, well, there, there's no connection between those two
things. It turns out that when we all do well, then the economy,
as a whole, is going to benefit.
MR. BROKAW: I want to move now to international affairs, the
war on terror. Obviously, we have all been stunned by what
happened in India at Mumbai. It is still playing out in that part of
the world. You have said that the United States reserves the
right to go after terrorists in Pakistan if you have targets of
opportunity. Does India now also have that right of hot pursuit?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to comment on that.
What, what I'm going to restate is a basic principle. Number one,
if a country is attacked, it has the right to defend itself. I think
that's universally acknowledged. The second thing is that we
need a strategic partnership with all the parties in the region--
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Pakistan and India and the Afghan government--to stamp out the
kind of militant, violent, terrorist extremists that have set up base
camps and that are operating in ways that threaten the security
of everybody in the international community. And, as I've said
before, we can't continue to look at Afghanistan in isolation. We
have to see it as a part of a regional problem that includes
Pakistan, includes India, includes Kashmir, includes Iran. And
part of the kind of foreign policy I want to shape is one in which
we have tough, direct diplomacy combined with more effective
military operations, focused on what is the number one threat
against U.S. interests and U.S. lives. And that's al-Qaeda and,
and, and their various affiliates, and we are going to go after
them fiercely in the years to come.
MR. BROKAW: President Zardari of Pakistan has said that he
expects you to re-examine the American policy of using
unmanned missiles for attacks on terrorist camps in Pakistan; and
there have been civilian casualties in those attacks as well. Are
you re-examining that policy?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I--what I want to do is to create the
kind of effective, strategic partnership with Pakistan that allows
us, in concert, to assure that terrorists are not setting up safe
havens in some of these border regions between Pakistan and
Afghanistan. So far President Zardari has sent the right signals.
He's indicated that he recognizes this is not just a threat to the
United States, but it is a threat to Pakistan as well. There was a
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bombing in Pakistan just yesterday that killed scores of people,
and so you're seeing greater and greater terrorist activity inside
of Pakistan. I think this democratically-elected government
understands that threat, and I hope that in the coming months
that we're going to be able to establish the kind of close,
effective, working relationship that makes both countries safer.
MR. BROKAW: That part of the world is such a hot zone.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: Is it going to be necessary for you to appoint
some kind of a special envoy to worry only about South Asia with
presidential authority?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, my first job is to make sure that my
core national security team--Secretary of State designee Hillary
Clinton; Jim Jones, who will be my national security adviser; Bob
Gates; Susan Rice, my U.N. representative--that my intelligence
folks, when they get appointed, that we come up with a
comprehensive strategy. I have enormous confidence in Senator
Clinton's ability to rebuild alliances and to send a strong signal
that we're going to do business differently and place an emphasis
on diplomacy.
MR. BROKAW: Let's talk for a moment about Iraq. It was aprincipal--it was one of the principals in the organization of your
campaign at the beginning. A lot of people voted for you because
they thought you would bring the war in Iraq to an end very
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swiftly. Here is what you had to say on July 3rd of this year
about what you would do once you took office.
(Videotape)
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: I intend to end this war. My first day in
office I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in and I will give them a
new mission, and that is to end this war responsibly, deliberately,
but decisively.
(End videotape)
MR. BROKAW: When does the drawdown of American troops
begin and when does it end in Iraq?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, one of my first acts as president,
once I'm sworn in, will be to bring in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to
bring in my national security team, and design a plan for a
responsible drawdown. You are seeing a convergence. When I
began this campaign, there was a lot of controversy about theidea of starting to draw down troops. Now you've seen the--this
administration sign an agreement with the Iraqi government,
both creating a time frame for removing U.S. troops. And so
what I want to do is tell our Joint Chiefs, let's do it as quickly as
we can do to maintain stability in Iraq, maintain the safety of U.S.
troops, to provide a mechanism so that Iraq can start takingmore responsibility as a sovereign nation for it's own safety and
security, ensuring that you don't see any resurgence of terrorism
in Iraq that could threaten our interests. But recognizing that the
central front on terror, as Bob Gates said, started in Afghanistan,
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in the border regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's
where it will end, and that has to be our priority.
MR. BROKAW: Jim Jones, who is your new national security
adviser, the man that you want to have in that job, who was the
Marine commandant when we first went into Afghanistan, I had a
conversation with him at that time, and he said to me, "I know
how we're going to get into Afghanistan; I don't know how we're
going to get out of Afghanistan." What is he telling you today
about how we're going to get out of Afghanistan?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think we're, we're starting to see a
consensus that we have to have more effective military action,
and that means additional troops, but it also means more
effective coordination with our NATO allies. It means that we have
to have much more effective diplomacy in the region. We can't
solve Afghanistan without solving Pakistan and working more
effectively with that country. And we are going to have to make
sure that India and Pakistan are normalizing their relationship if
we're going to be effective in some of these other areas.
And we've got to really ramp up our development approach to
Afghanistan. I mean, part of the problem that we've had is the
average Afghan farmer hasn't seen any improvement in his life.
You know, we haven't seen the kinds of infrastructure
improvements, we haven't seen the security improvements, we
haven't seen the reduction in narco trafficking, we haven't seen a
reliance on rule of law in Afghanistan that would make people feel
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confident that the central government can, in fact, deliver on its
promises. And if we combine effective development, more
effective military work, as well as more effect diplomacy, then I
think that we can stabilize the situation. Our number one goal
has to be to make sure that it cannot be used as a base to launch
attacks against the United States, and we've got to get bin Laden
and we've got to get al-Qaeda.
MR. BROKAW: Here's something else that Afghan farmer has
never seen nor have any of his ancestors ever seen this: foreign
powers coming into Afghanistan and being effective and staying
very long.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right. Well, I, I think that we do have to
be mindful of the history of Afghanistan. It is tough territory.
And there's a fierce independence in Afghanistan, and if the
perception is that we are there simply to impose ourselves in a
long-term occupation, that's not going to work in Afghanistan. By
the way, that's not going to work in Iraq either. There are very
few countries that welcome long-term occupations by foreign
powers. But Afghanistan has shown that they are fiercely
resistant to that. We're going to have to convince the Afghan
people that we're not interested in dictating what happens in
Afghanistan. What we are interested in is making sure that
Afghanistan cannot be used as a base for launching terrorist
attacks. And as long as al-Qaeda and the Taliban, working in
concert with al-Qaeda, threaten directly the United States and are
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engaged in mayhem, then we've got to take action. And, and
that very limited goal of making sure that that doesn't happen, I
think, can serve as the basis for effective cooperation with the
Afghan people.
MR. BROKAW: Before we leave that part of the world, on Iraq,
there's a new phrase that has come into play called "residual
force," how many troops will stay behind in an Obama
administration. Speculation is 35,000 to 50,000. Is that a fair
number?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to speculate on the
numbers. What I've said is that we are going to maintain a large
enough force in the region to assure that our civilian troops--or
our, our, our civilian personnel and our, our embassies are
protected, to make sure that we can ferret out any remaining
terrorist activity in the region, in cooperation with the Iraqi
government, that we are providing training and logistical support,
maintaining the integrity of Iraq as necessary. And, you know,
I--one of the things that I'll be doing is evaluating what kind of
number's required to meet those very limited goals.
MR. BROKAW: Now, two other areas that could be problematic in
your administration, I want to deal with them fairly swiftly here if
I can. What are the circumstances under which you would open a
dialogue with Iran?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I've said before, I think we need to
ratchet up tough but direct diplomacy with Iran, making very
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clear to them that their development of nuclear weapons would
be unacceptable, that their funding of terrorist organizations like
Hamas and Hezbollah, their threats against Israel are contrary to
everything that we believe in and what the international
community should accept, and present a set of carrots and sticks
in, in changing their calculus about how they want to operate.
You know, in terms of carrots, I think that we can provide
economic incentives that would be helpful to a country that,
despite being a net oil producer, is under enormous strain, huge
inflation, a lot of unemployment problems there. They could
benefit from a more open economy and, and being part of the
international economic system. But we also have to focus on the
sticks, and one of the main things that diplomacy can accomplish
is to help knit together the kind of coalition with China and India
and Russia and other countries that now do business with Iran to
agree that, in order for us to change Iran's behavior, we may
have to tighten up those sanctions. But we are willing to talk to
them directly and give them a clear choice and, and ultimately let
them make a determination in terms of whether they want to do
this the hard way or, or the easy way.
MR. BROKAW: And, briefly, how soon after you take office do you
want to meet with the leaders of Russia? And which ones do you
meet with? Your counterpart is Medvedev; but, of course, the
power behind the throne is Vladimir Putin.
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PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, you know, this is something that
we're going to make a determination on. I think that it's going to
be important for us to reset U.S.-Russian relations. Russia is a
country that has made great progress economically over the last
several years. Obviously, high oil prices have helped them. They
are increasingly assertive. And when it comes to Georgia and
their threats against their neighboring countries, I think they've
been acting in a way that's contrary to international norms. We
want to cooperate with them where we can, and there are a
whole host of areas, particularly around nonproliferation of
weapons and terrorism, where we can cooperate. But we also
have to send a clear message that they have to act in ways that
are not bullying their neighbors.
MR. BROKAW: You still have some appointments to make coming
up, and there's also a good deal of consideration here in Illinois
about who will replace you in the Senate. But in New York this
weekend the big buzz is Caroline Kennedy in the United States
Senate, perhaps as the appointment to fill the seat that Hillary
Clinton is expected to vacate if she gets confirmed as secretary of
state.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: And?
MR. BROKAW: Is that a good idea?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, let me tell you this. Caroline
Kennedy has become one of my dearest friends and is just a, a
wonderful American, a wonderful person. But the last thing I
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want to do is get involved in New York politics. I've got enough
trouble in terms of Illinois politics. But just in terms of our
appointments, I am very proud of the speed with which we have
started to put together our core economic team, our national
security team, but also the excellence of the candidates. And I, I
think that it's an indication of part of the change I was talking
about during the campaign, an emphasis on competence, an
emphasis on people who are nonideological and pragmatic and
just want to do business.
You know, tomorrow, you had mentioned earlier, is when we
commemorate Pearl Harbor, and so I'm going to be making
announcement tomorrow about the head of our Veterans
Administration, General Eric Shinseki, who was a commander and
has fought in Vietnam, Bosnia, is, is somebody who has achieved
the highest level of military service. He has agreed that he is
willing to be part of this administration because both he and I
share a reverence for those who serve. I grew up in Hawaii, as
he did. My grandfather is in the Punchbowl National Cemetery.
When I reflect on the sacrifices that have been made by our
veterans and I think about how so many veterans around the
country are struggling, even more than those who have not
served--higher unemployment rates, higher homeless rates,
higher substance abuse rates, medical care that is inadequate--it
breaks my heart. And I think that General Shinseki is exactly the
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right person who's going to be able to make sure that we honor
our troops when they come home.
MR. BROKAW: He's the man who lost his job in the Bush
administration because he said that we would need more troops
in Iraq than Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld thought that we
would need at that time.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: He was right.
MR. BROKAW: And General Shinseki was right.
Let me ask you as we conclude this program this morning about
whether you and Michelle have had any discussions about the
impact that you're going to have on this country in other ways
besides international and domestic policies. You're going to have
a huge impact, culturally, in terms of the tone of the country.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.
MR. BROKAW: Who are the kinds of artists that you would like tobring to the White House?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Oh, well, you know, we have thought
about this because part of what we want to do is to open up the
White House and, and remind people this is, this is the people's
house. There is an incredible bully pulpit to be used when it
comes to, for example, education. Yes, we're going to have an
education policy. Yes, we're going to be putting more money into
school construction. But, ultimately, we want to talk about
parents reading to their kids. We want to invite kids from local
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schools into the White House. When it comes to science,
elevating science once again, and having lectures in the White
House where people are talking about traveling to the stars or
breaking down atoms, inspiring our youth to get a sense of what
discovery is all about. Thinking about the diversity of our culture
and, and inviting jazz musicians and classical musicians and
poetry readings in the White House so that, once again, we
appreciate this incredible tapestry that's America. I--you know,
that, I think, is, is going to be incredibly important, particularly
because we're going through hard times. And, historically, what
has always brought us through hard times is that national
character, that sense of optimism, that willingness to look
forward, that, that sense that better days are ahead. I think that
our art and our culture, our science, you know, that's the essence
of what makes America special, and, and we want to project that
as much as possible in the White House.
MR. BROKAW: Finally, Mr. President-elect, the White House is a
no-smoking zone, and when you were asked about this recently
by Barbara Walters, I read it very carefully, you ducked. Have
you stopped smoking?
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: You know, I have, but what I said was
that, you know, there are times where I've fallen off the wagon.
Well...
MR. BROKAW: Well, wait a minute.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: ...what can I tell...
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MR. BROKAW: Then that means you haven't stopped.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, the--fair enough. What I would say
is, is that I have done a terrific job under the circumstances of
making myself much healthier, and I think that you will not see
any violations of these rules in the White House.
MR. BROKAW: Mr. President-elect, thank you very much for
being with us today.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.
MR. BROKAW: And I know that I speak not just for MEET THE
PRESS, but for all of America when I saw we wish you only the
very best.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, Tom, thank you and congratulations
on doing such a great job on this show.
MR. BROKAW: Well, these were circumstances none of us, none
of us wanted to have, but Tim remains with us in a lot of ways, asyou know.
PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: He does.
MR. BROKAW: Thanks for being with us.
And after that discussion about the future of this country, in a
moment, the future of MEET THE PRESS.
(Announcements)
MR. BROKAW: We're back here in Washington after my exclusive
interview yesterday in Chicago with President-elect Barack
Obama. And, as you heard at the conclusion of that interview,
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this is my last Sunday as the temporary moderator of MEET THE
PRESS, an assignment that I reluctantly took on last June when
we lost my pal and our dear colleague Tim Russert. But it has
been a privilege to be in this chair during this exciting and
challenging time. I first made an appearance on MEET THE
PRESS at the height of Watergate back in 1973, and so it has a
long, rich tradition that will always be a part of me. And what will
also be a part of me are all of you. I'm extremely grateful that
you have shared your Sunday mornings with MEET THE PRESS.
But now it's time for me to move on and to introduce the new
moderator of MEET THE PRESS, another great friend and a
cherished colleague, David Gregory, who is here with us this
morning.
And, David, Tim always liked to say that MEET THE PRESS was a
national treasure, the rest of us were all temporary custodians of
all that. I'm more temporary than others at this chair right now.
But I hand this assignment off to you with also one of the best
staffs I've ever worked with, led by Betsy Fisher the executive
producer.
MR. DAVID GREGORY: Well, thank you, Tom. This is an
incredible honor, and to have it come from you is also really
special because of what you've meant to me in the course of my
career here and the course of my life. I know how Betsy and the
staff and, and I feel so grateful to you for everything you've
brought to the program in such a difficult time after Tim died, and
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it's really meant a lot. It's meant a lot to the country, it's meant
a lot to us to see your example. And I've watched your example
a lot. You nurtured me in this business, Tim did. And I was in a
unique place where I got to see two of the very best in journalism
up close. I've tried to learn a lot and you know, I've, I've, I've
thought a lot about what it means to success--succeed somebody
like Tim Russert. And I'm not Tim, but, along with this great
team, I can just work real hard to make him proud.
MR. BROKAW: Well, part of the deal is that you no longer can
break up Washington parties by doing your drop-dead imitation of
me. That has to be part of the contract, you understand that?
MR. GREGORY: Exactly. I got that memo very carefully.
Although when my--when I'm a little bit under the weather like I
am now, the voice is really close, so it's really so tempting to
break into it.
MR. BROKAW: Listen, I've been at this a long time, as you know,
and what I think really is very exciting for you and important to
this country is that everybody's paying attention now in a way
that I can't remember since 1968. We are in very, very difficult
times, and people want to participate in their own destiny. And
so it makes Sunday morning across all these networks, and
especially here on MEET THE PRESS, a critically important time in
American life, David.
MR. GREGORY: I think the country is in such a difficult place
right now and such a challenging place, and people are so
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engaged, and we just saw it. And what an important interview
with the president-elect of the United States on Sunday morning.
In a way, on this program, uniquely, can provide insights and
answers and ask tough questions to explore the nature of
leadership in Washington and the country and the world, and to
hold leaders accountable.
You know, Tim always said to me, as you have said to me, be
respectful but ask the tough questions and think of the smart
follow-up and hold them accountable. And if you come out that
way and if you're fair, you'll, you'll be just fine in the end. And
that's what this program represents to me. It's what I've learned
from this incredible staff along the way. And, you know, it's
about preparation. What I thought you have taught me in this
role and in your role at NBC News at "Nightly News" and beyond,
and what Tim has taught me is that these are treasured platforms
with which you have to pursue with great purpose, a sense of
purpose. I want my beautiful wife, Beth, and my three children
to see me pursue my career with that sense of purpose, and it
means a lot to me.
MR. BROKAW: The other thing to remember, if I may offer this
gratuitous advice, is that this broadcast is especially important
beyond the Potomac and beyond the Hudson River in New York
City. Across the country, I have been very struck by how
important this broadcast is to people as a regular appointment for
them.
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MR. GREGORY: That's right, and, and again, one of the strengths
is--of the program, is to be able to bring some of the very difficult
issues of our time to, to people in a way where they can
understand it, they can digest it, and they can make it part of
their own decision-making and opinion-making in their lives. And
a key part of that, I hope you know, is that I'm going to be
counting on you, both privately on a, on a phone call, or if I can
get out to Montana, and around this table, I'm going to need your
voice and really want your voice and your perspective.
MR. BROKAW: Well, I'll, I'll be happy to be back, but I really
encourage you to reach to your generation and get some fresh
new voices that are out there because it's a very impressive
crowd of young journalists who are coming of age.
MR. GREGORY: Right.
MR. BROKAW: David, thanks very much.
And by the way, David and I will have more of this discussion
about Washington, politics and MEET THE PRESS on our Web site
after this morning's broadcast. That Web site is mtp.msnbc.com.
David will be back here next week because, if it is Sunday, it's
MEET THE PRESS.
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