14543 MRS . JOSEPH
specifically condemned the violence of the Trench Revo-
lution, but nevertheless we have hailed the principles
that emerged from the French Revolution. The whole world
has, my lords. ^s^
Yes. Well , it is for that reason that I fm —'
really asking you the questions. Did the view, the point
of view as regards non-violence, was that not a point of
view which depended on the circumstances?— Not in my
understanding of i t , my lord; I would make one point
and that i s , my lords, in the Congress of Democrats
generally speaking we were only concerned with the situa-
tion in South Africa. We did not, I think ever have a
Foreign policy as such; in fact we made it clear from
the beginning that we were not aiming to be a Parliamen-
tary Party for which it would be necessary to put forward
specific policy, economic policy, or foreign policy.
We had a limited purpose, which was to assist in what we
saw the liberation of South Africa, and the granting of
the universal franchise. That is why I am finding it
difficult , ray lords, to think in terms of a specific
policy on these matters of the Congress of Democrats.
Prom time to time at our Conferences where an issue was
very much in the minds of people, a resolution would be
passed on a specific issue, but really, my lords, we did
not have a broad policy on these mattera.
Again, on the question of shall I say a rela-
tive^ violence, did the Congress of Democrats support the
principle of the African National Congress that in order
to achieve its aims it may be necessary to engage in a
unionwide struggle?— In a unionwide peaceful struggle,
yes, my lordc
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
A Unionwide 'Stay at Home'?— Stay at home, yes.
I didn't say strife , I said strike - -?—
I 'm sorry, I thought you said struggle. ;
A Unionwide strike?— Yes, my lord.
Did it support that?— Yes, my lord, it did.
Did i t , the Congress, also accept the view that
the Government which it called a Fascist Government, would
not relax and instead of granting rights would become more
and more hard?— Yes, my lords, we accepted that; it was a
realistic view of the situation. We knew that.
Did the Congress realise that in the case of an
ultimate strike which would be an indication of the failure
of any negotiations prior to that, that there might be \
violence used by the State, to break up the strike?
My lord, I 'm having a little difficulty with the use of
the word 'strike' as against a 'stay at home', where peo-
ple remain peacefully in their homes, on a very cast scale.
What do you understand the difference to be, be-
tween a strike and a stay at home?— A strike to me, my
lords, is something which relates more to specific industry
- a National stoppage of work to me is a wider term, when
people stay at home.
A strike, a bigger strike?— I t ' s again more an
expression of disapproval in which people stay at home.
I t ' s difficult - - if in fact a stay at home is carried
out in a highly disciplined manner, in which people re-
main in their homes, then i t ' s difficult to see how armed
interference could really ariseo I t ' s not a question
so much of picketing where there may be clashes - but
of people w ho s tay at home.
Well , assume there are arrests on a large scale,
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
even "by the Army - strike being an illegal act in the view
of the State - -?— Only illegal in certain cases for cer-
tain people. A stay at home in itself is not, my lord, il-
legal unless it affects the essential services. I t ' s not
an organised strike in a factory, which is illegal - - it ' s
different, my lords.
Well , as far as I understood the evidence so far
it was part of the policy of the African National Congress
that it would go as far as the universal, or a Nationwide
strike - a stay at home?— Yes.
In order to achieve i t , if necessary?— Yes.
Then, my lords, these were envisaged as being possible
even amongst our own members. We are in fact here to-day
my lords. . . .
And in that case, if there were ever a strike I.I HI I • — — — — ~ ~
oi that scale, and there were arrests on a large scale,
did the Congress of Democrats envisage the possibility
of violence occurring - - resistance of arrests?— No, my
lords, because that has not been in the policy of the
Congress as a whole. No, my lord. . .
I t ' s not what the policy was, but what the Con-
gress envisaged would happen?— That would be something
which we should try to-"prevent, my lord.
Was there a likelihood of it happening?— My lord
a likelihood really is in terms of how likely it is pes -
sible , or how near is the possibility of a Nationwide
stay at home.
Well, I 'm putting it on the basis that once
there is a Nationwide strike, it must have appeared to
the Congress Alliance that nothing else could do anything,
could achieve anything^ it would mean, it would pre-
1 4 5 4 3 MRS . JOSEPH
suppose a situation of the Government being as hard as a
rock?— Yes, my lord.
And the Congress Alliance being as determined
as anything?— Yes,
That situation must be pre-supposed before one
thinks of a nationwide strike?— Yes,
Now, in that atmosphere, having regard to the
fact that the Government of the day is as hard as a rock,
and the Congress Alliance is determined to carry on, what
would the Congress of Democrats - - or you, for that matt
what would you envisage might happen - -?— I envisage
that there mi^ht be, as you say, arrests, but I saw i t ,
and I think others too, that if that situation could be
brought about it would not be of very long duration. Our
people might have to suffer, during the time that the
pressure would be on the population as a whole. It would
not be of very long duration. Our people might have to
suffer during that time, but the pressure would be on the
population as a wholef because the country would not be
able to continue and therefore negotiations would be the
result. That is how we saw i t , my lords, that people
might have to suffer imprisonment; that is true, my
lord.
And blood flowing?-— Yes, we have made that , 1 — 1 "1 '
clear too, to our people, that even non-violent methods
might not be able to prevent violence being used against
us; we've said that repeatedly, my lords.
And if the strike is on a Nationwide scale,
would you exclude violence completely by the masses
against the authorities, if there were arrests?—
14525 MRS. JOSEPH
That would be the instruction, my lord.
But what do you envisage?— To resist provocation. 1 — \——
What do you envisage i'n that - if I may call it -
final plan?— My lord, I envisage it this way, that we
would not embark upon something of this nature which would
be of such a vast character unless we had good reason to
believe that our people would be disciplined. We would
not go into it rashly, my lord,.
That must be the hope?— Yes, it would be.
But the expectation, what would be the expectation
? — My lord, the expectation would have to depend upon
the circumstance s at the time; I don't think I could really
answer that.
Assume that the position would be that the Con-
gress Alliance had reached that stage where it was deter-
mined to carry on with a Nationwide strike, knowing that
the Government was adamant, realising also that the clash
would be short because of the . . . . . . organisation of the
Congress Alliance; and i f I may put it also, realising
that although there may be some blood it would be small
compared to a Nationwide clash, and it would be of very
short duration before victory would be achieved. Would
i
that be in line with the Congress of T^onr-atq policy? —
My lords, I don't think that at any time one can exclude
a possibility - because we have said that over and over
again - but I don't think that we would be justified in
going forward with such a plan, saying to ourselves, "Yes,
we know that there will be some casualties, but we don't
regard that as important in view of the end to be a chieved.
That, my lord, would to me be a violation of our policy.
It would be.
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
(Witness contd): Because we must always go forward with
the conscious determination to a void bloodshed; but
we have never been able to give that guarantee. But
it is fundamental to our policy, my lord, that we don't
engage in activities which we are convinced are going to
lead to bloodshed, even i f it is small. I ' l l put it that
way, my lordo
I 'm asking these questions to see how your evi-
dence about the fundamentals of your policy can be recon-
ciled to the hard "facts of l i f e ? — My lords, the funda-
mentals of our policy were reconciled to the hard facts
of life in India. It took a long time. They can be
reconciled; I believe i t , my lord.
Except that there may be this difference in I . ,
India - between India and this country- - that the very t
idea of non-violence as propagated by Ghandi is an ideas'
which, according to the evidence as such, has not been
propagated to the same extent anc! jn the same particular
manner?— It started here, my lordo
Yes; I-m now talking about the evidence before
us. Do you follow what I mean?— Yes, I do, but I mean
G-handi's first experiment was in South Africa,
And secondly, the t ype of stake that Ghandi
wanted may not be quite the same tyoe of stake that the
Congress Alliance want?— My lords, I can't claim, of
course, to be an exDert on India or on Ghandi or others,
who are much better qualified than I , but I have always
understood that Ghandi's aim was to seek liberation for
his people to decide for themselves what kind of stake
they want, and that, my lord, is in effect the aim of
the Congress Movement here; so that I see a great simi-
14527 MRS. JOSEPH
larity, but my lords, I must say I don't claim to be so
well informed about Ghandiism*
Yes, Yes, Mr. Liebenberg.
MR. LIEBENBERG % Is not the evidence before
the Court, Mrs, Joseph, that Ghandi's method had only to
serve as a lever to induce the masses to other fights of
mass action?— That passive resistance was only to be a
lever - -
A lever for mass action of other types?— I
have never seen it so, I would like to have something more
specific on that i f possible, my lord.
The Exhibit number is B„25, my lords5 at the
bottom of this - - it appears at pa°-e 1175 of the record -
it reads as follows:— "Passive resistance can be a power-
ful weapon for awakening peoples' consciousness, and arousing
their support. It prepares them for future struggle by
teaching them that readiness to sacrifice is always the
price of victory in a struggle. It oan thus be a lever
moving the whole struggle forward to mass action of other
types," Then further down? "The history of passive re-
sistance, especially of Ghandi's passive resistance move-
ment in India., proves that it is only an effective weapon
when it is used to build up the movement and prepare the
people for other forms of mass action and mass struggle."
Do you agree with this statement on the form of passive
resistance?— No, my lords, that doesn't really fall into
my view of passive resistance, but I , of course, do not
know who made that statement; it staes 'csn be' - I don't
think it is meant to be a categorical statement.
Well; in this document, Mrs.Joseph, I suggest
that it means only one thing, namely that passive resist-
14528 MRS. JOSEPH
ance is but a step to other forms of mass action?— My
lords, it can be a step to other forms, or it can achieve
an end in itself,.
You were dealing with - - at least his lordship
asked you about the struggles in Colonial countries. I
want to refresh your memory about what you said in your
evidence in chiefs You said that armed conflict in Colo-
nial countries was due not solely to the efforts of the
people to obtain rights, but also to the refusal of the
authorities to recognise the rights of the people?— Yes.
Was that your organisation's understanding of
the use of 'armed conflict' in the colonial countries?
Due not solely to the efforts of the oppressed people but
also to the authorities' refusal . . .
The failure on the part of the authorities to
recognise their rights?— My lords, I think that would ex-
press our opinion; as I say, I don't recall it ever being
formulated, but I think it would be in line with our
opinion, that armed conflict is not - - yes, it would, it
is not only due to the people coming forward - - it comes
from both sides, I think so„ I cannot see any real
difficulty in that.
Yes. but what I want to put to you is that
this evidence of ours shows an approval by implication
of the use of armed conflict in the Colonial countries.
? — It was not intended so5 my lords. I may have ex-
pressed myself not very clearly, but I don't know the
context from which you have taken this phrase - - but
it certainly wasn't my intention to express approval
of armed conflict . . . I would, however, like to know
more the context in which I made this statement. I don't
1
145?9 MRS. JOSEPH
recall it now.
May I put to you a hypothetical question? I f
two or three countries, Colonial countries in the world
were struggling for a Socialist State, and they were to
read of the success of the resolution in the Soviet Union
- would they not feel inclined to apply that method to
their struggle? They are working towards the same objec-
tive as Russia?—
KENNEDY Js Can the witness answer that?
MR. LIEBENBERG; My lord, I 'm putting a hypothetical
question. These countries are all working towards the
establishment of Socialism; they have the example of a
country like Russia where Socialism was achieved by the
means of revolution?— I really cannot say, my lords,
whether they would or not, even hypothetically I cannot
say.
You see, I want to put to you more directly that
in South Africa the success of the revolution in Russia
was praised?— It may have been,, I would like to have
some knowledge of where and how it was praised; it may
well have been, I don't knowr
Wasn ;t that the object of all those annual
meetings on the 7th November - arranged by the South
African Society for Peace and Friendship with the Soviet
Union?— Possibly for these people who attended them.
And the people who attended and who addressed
them were members of the South African Congress of Demo-
crats like Bernstein, Barsel and others?— That may well
be , my lords; I have already said that in the Congress
of Democrats people held different points of view; it
may be so.
20
25
30
14530
MRS. JOSEPH
Mra. Joseph, I was dealing with this document
0 . 292 , and I would like you to express yourself in the way
that you understand the policy of the South African Congress
of Democrats. Now, is it the view of the South African
Congress of Democrats that Fascism has been established in
South Africa?— My lords, I think, yes, we certainly hold
the view that South Africa . . .
Is a Fascist State?— Yes, that has been express-
ed. I t ' s in a broad sense, my lords, but that is a point
of view held by our organisation that South ATPrica has become
a Fascist State. I don't say completely, but that is the
trend in South Africa.
The effect of this that the Government assumes
dictatorial powers to oppress the working class?— To
oppress not only the working class . .
And to rule the country?— To rule the country
yes.
And is it further the view of your organisation
that there b very little prospect of getting any change
in the situation in or through Parliament? Because of this
?— I t ' s true to this extent, that we felt that experience
had shewn that there was very little chance of getting
any change in or through Parliament until we could strengthen
and reinforce Parliament, or the white electorate rather
through our extra-parliamentary pressure. That is correct.
We did not exclude the possibility but we felt that with-
out the extra parliamentary pressure on the white elec-
torate there would be very little chance. I think I 've
said that also at the very beginning of my evidence-in-
chief.
JT^, 14531
MRS. JOSEPH
Is it also your organisation's view that the
anti-Pascist Movement now has its heart outside of Par-
liament, in the mass movement of the peoples of all colours
?— Now has its heart?
Yes?— Yes, my lords.
That appear^ from Exhibit C .41 , my lords?—
I don't know if this is the view as expressed by my orga-
nisation, but I would agree with the principle of i t .
Now, wel l , I'm not interested in whether it
was expressed by your organisation, or not. Is that the
view of your organisation?— That the anti-Pascist move-
ment has its heart . . » yes, I said so.
That is your organisation's view. And that
Fascism can only be defeated by the defeat of the Nationa-
list Government?— Yes, my lords, we hold that view, but
I think we have qualified it also by saying that the mere
replacement of the Nationalist Government by the present
Parliamentary Opposition would not necessarily bring about
the changes which we desire; I think we have qualified
that, perhaps nob in that particular document, but as a
general expression
In this document it is stated that the
Nationalist Government can only be defeated by extra-
parliamentary action, involving the masses of the people
? — My lords, I don't recall that as an actual expression;
that limits i t , that expression of our policy. I don't
know i f that is a policy document; I seem to recognise
it as a document which was presented by an individual
for discussion at a conference.
But it is the same, I suggest, as this
previous one that I put to you, 0.41=
14532 MRS. JOSEPH
RUMPFF Js But the witness says she doesn't want
to limit the position to jhe elimination of the National-
ist Party. She further regarded it as essential that
that party should not he substituted by another Capitalist
Party.
MR. LIEBENBFRG-; And you do subscribe to the
view that ? or your organisation rather subscribes to the
view that the Fascism can only be defeated by some decisive
action of the masses of the people?— My lord it would
depend really in what sense decisive action were used.
Well , I'm asking you, Mrs. Joseph; what your
organisation had in mind?— My lords, I would like to
know more about the decisive action - - if it is just used
as a blanket phrase, then I can comment on it ; or if it
has a specific reference . then I can also comment on
i t .
You 3aid to the Court some time ago that this
circular, the Springbok Legion circular, C .292 , was in
line with your cganisation's policy. Now I'm putting to
you the section which deals with the decisive action to
defeat the Fascists. I?m asking you what action you had
in mind?-- Now I recall that the decisive action that was
considered in that circular, as far as I remember i t ,
- I don't have it in front of me - was the need for extra
parHsnentary action. Now I can put it into its reference.
And how would the masses have to - - or what
forms of extra parliamentary action would the masses have
to employ?— Those have already been specified, my lords,
as passive resistance, civil disobedience - - I don't think
they are expressed in that letter, but in the framework
of the Congress policy it has been expressed - - non-
14533 MRS. JOSEPH
collaboration, strikes, stay at homes, civil disobedience,
demonstrations.
Your problem, Mrs. Joseph, I suggest, was to
organise the non^white masses, politically?— My lords,
that was not the problem of the Congress of Democrats.,
The task of the Congress of Democrats was to specifically
work amongst the European electorate; that was the pur-
pose for which we were formed, and to assist the other
Congresses. Eut our primary task was to work amongst the
European electorate.
Did you work very closely with the other orga-
nisations?— Yes, I didp because that was included - that
we should assist the Congress organisation.
And the task of the whole Congress movement was
to organise the masses?— Organise the masses of all races,
my lords.
And to use a technical phrase, to raise their
political consciousness?— Of all rac^s, my lords.
And to get them to act in a disciplined manner
? — Yes.
By obeying the instructions of the leaders?—
Obeying instructions of the leaders, within the terms of
the Congress policy,,
And if they had embarked on some mass action,
which led to a countrywide upheaval, would you people
have been averse to i t ?— I'm not sure what is meant by
a countrywide upheaval. A stay at home on a national
scale - such as we discussed a few moments ago could lead
to a countrywide upheaval which would bring about the
negotiations, and we would not be averse to that.
14534 MRS. JOSEPH
And if their action had led to violent clashes
would you have been against that?— Yes.
Did you ever tell them that you were against i t ? —
My lords, tell who?
The people with whom you were dealing?— My lords,
we have consistently, from our platforms, put forward the
non-violent policy; I 'm not clear really as to what the
Prosecutor is getting at here.
l e t ' s deal with the struggle against passes?—Yes.
Was it your instruction to all the masses that they
should take such action as they might find necessary to
resist the pass laws?— I really cannot see how it could
ever have been my instruction to all the masses, my lords.
You wore a member of the Transvaal Action Commit-
tee of the C . O . P ? — That is so.
Did you issue a circular called "Death to the
Pass Laws" , C 1086 , my lords?— I don't recall i t ; i f
I saw it I might well remember i t .
BEKKER Js Has it been read in?
MR. LIEBEMEBRCtS Unfortunately this is used by
the Defence, my lords;
BEKKER J ; Was it put in under the present wit-
ness' evidence?
MR. LIEBEHBERG; I ' l l get the reference, my lords ,
I ' l l give it to your lordships. 2182 , my lords , is the
page reference. May i get the Exhibit , my lords , I have
not got it before me. C 6 1 0 8 6 . I ' l l read to you what
I have here, Mrs. Joseph, "The Struggle against Pass
Laws must take every form possible. There must be meet-
ings , demonstrations, petitions, resistance and other forms
of struggle which the people are sure to evolve themselves.
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
Exactly which form of s truggle must be employed will
vary from area to area. The choice of the form of
struggle must be left to the leaders in each area."
That's a circular which was issued by the Transvaal
Consultative Committee on the 1st March, 1956. You
were a member of that body?— Yes, my lords.
And here you advocated the use of other forms
of s truggle which the people are sure to evolve them-
selves?— Yes, my lords, I have already discussed this
very phrase in my evidence-in-chief., in which I think
I pointed out that this was an internal bulletin circu-
lated amongst the Congresses who were constituent bodies
of the Transvaal Consultative Committee.
You left the choice of the form ofstruggle to
the leaders?-- Yes, I'm coming to that, my lords. And
that in the context of that it would mean that there would
be other struggles which the people would be sure to
evolve themselves - and these would be, as far as the
Congresses are concerned could only be those which we
would countenance if they fell within the framework of
our non-violent methods. I did deal with this paragraph
already, my lords.
You must have foreseen the possibility of
outbreaks of violence 9 — Not at a l l , my lords.
I suggest further that i f you wanted to state
your policy of non-violence this would have been the
lecture in which to do it?—- Pirst of a l l , mylords, it
was not any lecture, it was a circular that was sent
round - a bulletin that went to the constituent organisa-
tions, and within our organisations, my lords, we know
our own policy. We know our own methods. It surely is
14537 MRS. JOSEPH
not essential that we must continue to emphasise non-
violence. Our whole internal - - our policy is one of
non-violence. Our people understand it . It would be com-
pletely irrelevant in a bulletin to say the forms must
be non-violent. We know these things, my lords. This was
not for the public, this was a bulletin for the organisa-
tion.
You left the choise of the form of struggle to the
leaders of the areas concerned?— Well, my lords, that would
be the Congress leaders, , who would then choose the form
ofstruggle within the context of the Congress policy.
How, I put it to you again, Mrs. Joseph, that
if in any given area violent clashes have arisen which
enabled them to succeed in their struggles, would you have
condemned i t ? — My lords, we would have condemned the
violence. We would have disassociated ourselves from i t .
Your real object, Mrs. Joseph,was to achieve
the results?— My lordsr that is not so.
(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2 .15 P .M . )
14538 MRS. JOSEPH
ON THE COURT RESUMING AT 2.15 P.M:
XXP BY MR. LIEBENBERG (Contd) : .
Do you agree with the view that the South African
Congress of Democrats was an organisation of all the Euro-
peans who believe in and are committed to struggle for the
principles of the African National Congress?— My lords, I
would agree that the Congress of Democrats members do stand
by the principles of the African National Congress in their
struggle for liberation; I could not say that it includes
all the Europeans who are so committed, but I would say
that all members of the Congress of Democrats.
Well , that's what I 'm putting to you, that the
Congress of Democrats as an organisation was composed of
Europeans who believed in a struggle for the principles of
the African National Congress?— My lords, yes, insofar as
those principles are concerned with the struggle for libe-
ration.
And do you also agree that it had no set of
principles of its own?— No.
Separate and distinct from those of the Con-
gresses? That it complemented and did not compete with
them?— I don't think that our principles would in any
way compete with those of the African National Congresses
or the other Congresses -
Yes; they rather - - your principles were
really those of the other Congresses working towards the
same objective?— Yes, my lords.
And they adopted the same forms of struggle
and so on?— Yes, my lords.
The object of your organisation was merely to
recruit among the Europeans some members who would work
14539 MRS. JOSEPH
together in this big movement, the Congress Movement?—
Yes, my lords, I think that is stated quite clearly; our
aim was to get people who would assist in the Congress
Alliance and would share our aim of the universal fran-
chise, and equality and justice.
You see, when you dealt with this document
C.281 on page 1729 to 1737, my lords, that is the draft
of the immediate programme of action by J . Hodgson -
you tried to exclude this document from the policy of the
South African Congress of Democrats?— My lords, I don't
recall that I tried'to exclude it from the policy; I
merely pointed out that it was not a policy document, it
was a paper presented by an individual for discussion at
the Conference and that it was not in fact adopted at the
Conference.
Well , in this paper Hodgson also advocated
the establishment of a Peoples Democratic Government in
South Africa? That is in accordance with your policy?—
We certainly advocated the establishment of a Peoples
Democratic Government,
And is it correct that Hodgson was regarded as
•
a very promiment individual as far as his role for bringing
about the establishment of the S .A . Congress of Democrats
was concerned? He played a prominent part in bringing
into existence the South African Congress of Democrats?—
I don't recall that it was prominent other than that he
was a member of the Springbok Legion, and I think he was
also a member of the Transvaal Congress of Democrats. I
don't recall the actual prominence of Mr. Hodgson as an
individual.
Your paper "Counter Attack" described him as
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
a person who took a very prominent part in the formation of
the South African Congress of Democrats?— Well, I wouldn't
dispute it ; I just said I don't recall it so specifically,
but i f it has been stated in our organ then obviously I
would not dispute i t ,
Yes, And he deals with the short term objec-
tive and the long term objective of this proposed body,
that is the Congress of Democrats?— Yes,
And he says that the immediate objective would
bebe - that is the resistance against the attacks of Fascism-
would be a defensive struggle to harrass, hamper and to
retard the programme of the Nationalists; to prevent the
further weakening of the progressive forces, to rally and
to organise more and ever more people for the task of de-
feating Fascism. Is that not in accordance with the policy
of the South African Congress of Democrats?— Generally
speaking, yes, my lords.
That is also the policy of the African National
Congress?-- Again, generally speaking, yes, my lords.
I'm no expert on their policy,, I am no authority on i t . . .
And the long term objective as he envisaged it
was to mobilise and prepare the people for decisive action
to bring about the defeat of Fascism?— That is contained
in that document, my lords,
BEKKER J : Mrs. Joseph, you made a remark
that you are not an authority on the policy of the African
National Congress; is that correct?— Well, my lords, I
wouldn't put myself up as an authority on their policy.
I said generally speaking - that is what I understand their
policy to be. I 'm not so familiar with their whole Con-
stitution, but generally that is how I understand i t .
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
MR. LIEBENBERG; Yes, but you have already agreed
that your organisation was committed to a struggle for the
principles of the African National Congress?— I said in
relation to the whole struggle for liberation, but that
in my understanding is what the African National Congress
stands for.
BEKKER J ; Yes, but rohat I have in mind is this?
before the Congress, your Congress, alligned itself with
the African National Congress, to what extent did your
Congress investigate the policy of the African National
Congress?— I think we accepted it in broad principles, my
lords. I don't know that there was ever any specific
study of the Constitution - the broad principles were known
of struggling for liberation by means of a non-violent
struggle.
MR. LIEBENBBRG; For a People's Democracy?— For
the universal franchise, my lords.
And toe stablish a People's Democracy?— To esta-
blish a Democratic Government of t he People,.
I want to know, Mrs. Joseph, were not members of
the African National Congress present at the inaugural
conference of the South African Congress of Democrats?
Were they not invited?— I'm trying to remember, my lords;
I think that fraternal delegates would have been invited
but I cannot now recall who came. I imagine there would
have been - — I am sure there would have been. . .
At the meeting in September, 1953, did they not
play a recorded speech of Mr. Mandela?— There were re-
cordings - - it may well have been one of those; I do
not recall it specifically.
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
(Witness): Bit I certainly wouldn't dispute it ; I don't
now remember exactly which speeches were played, /
And were there also members of the South African
Indian Congress present at that first conference of the
South African Congress of Democrats?— Yea, my lords, there
certainly were because I remember that Mr. Kathalia was
elected to our National Executive,
So that as far as you know there was no differ-
ence between the policy of their organisation and that
of the African National Congress?— No, my lords; there
would be no d_ff erence,;, that I can recall0
Now, in this article or paper of Hodgson's
he again speaks of the decisive action that is mentioned
in that Springbok Legion pamphlet, C ,292 . Now, wasn't
this aspect of the policy discussed at this conference?—
My lords, it may have been; I really do not recollect
the discussion that took place; this was seven years
ago now. Papers were read and as I remember it there was
some discussion on thorn, but I really cannotremember
what form that diseres: on took0
But you were all agreed on the principle of
establishing a People's Democracy in South Africa?— We
all agreed on the principle of establishing for - working
for democratic government; whether the phrase People's
Democracy was specifically used I really don't recall ,
but the principle of establishing democratic government
with all that it implies - representation of all the
people -w as certainly accepted.
You see, in this article of Hodgson's he says
the following on page 3' " I t has to d e a l . . . " that is the
National Liberation Movement - - " It has to deal with
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
the situation which requires the defeat of the Government
and its replacement with a democratic People's Government*"
I put it to you that that was a factor that was prominently
discussed at this Inaugural Conference?— My lords, the
defeat of the Nationalist Government is certainly promi-
nent in our policy. That is not in dispute for a moment,
I cannot recall whether this was featured in the discus-
sions; I really am quite unable to recall what line the
discussion took on these particular papers.
And its replacement with a Democratic People's
Government?— My lords, I am sure that the Conference
would agree on that, that the present government should
be replaced by a democratic government; to me that is
so obvious, that is what we are working for, a democratic
People's Government.
Now you gave the impression in your evidence-
in-chief that you wanted to repudiate the paper presented
by Mr. Bernstein at this conference?— My lords, may I
ask which paper that w as?
"The Road to Liberty"? Exhibit C.52 , and it
appears on page 1553 to 1564, my lords .?— My lords, I
really want to dispute the suggestion that I wanted to
repudiate that document - that is not so at a l l . I con-
fined myself to pointing out that these were not policy
statements adopted by the Conference because they were
presented through the extracts that appeared in the
Crown's Opening Address; there was the impression given
that they were policy documents. I was trying to clear
it up on a factual basis, my lords.
Those two documents were presented by people
who were elected to the Executive?— That is so, my lords.
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
And it was there decided that those two documents
should be circularised among the branches for discussion
?— Por further discussion; that is correct.
And that would be a sort of indicationto the
branches of what line the new organisation was proposing
to follow?— I don't think it can be strictly speaking
construed in that way. If that had been the actual line
that had been adopted then I imagine they would have
been adopted at Conference and circulated to branches more
for information.
But they were not rejected at the Conference?— No,
I have not suggested that they were specifically rejected.
But they were not adopted as policy statements. They
were referred to the branches for further discussion.
Because they were approved of?— I understand that
they were referred because it was felt, and I do now seem
to recpll more clearly "that the Conference itself did
not provide sufficient time for full discussion of these
documents. My lords, that happens very frequently at
conferences? when the pressure of time becomes a factor.
No resolutions were passed on their contents - merely
a resolution that they should be - - for agreement - -
I don't even know if that was a resolution - - that they
should be referred for further discussion and the impli-
cation to me is that they required further discussion.
It was not a question of repudiating or rejecting or
accepting. They wanted further discussion, on them.
No amendment to either of them was suggested
at the conference?— My lords, they were not resolu-
tions that called for amendments. I cannot really see
14545 MRS. JOSEPH
how that would ar ise .
You see, these articles - both these articles, I
put to you, saw the South African scene as outlined in
the Springbok Legion pamphlet, C .292?— That may be so.
I haven't studied the "Road to Liberty".
And both these papers suggested an organisation
of the masses to defeat Fascism; that is also in accord-
ance with your policy of your organisation?— Yes, it would
be.- I must stress, however, that I have not looked at
"The Road to Liberty" for many months. I did look at the
other paper because it occurred in the Crown's Opening
Address.
And the "Road to Liberty" makes mention of the
decisive clash to which South African affairs were moving
? — My lords, without looking at document I really would
not be able to know very clearly what the writer had in
mind.
I ' l l read it to you, Mrs. Joseph. " I think it is
that fundamentally we all feel that South African affairs
are moving to a decisive clash in which are ranged on one
side all the forces of South African reaction gathered
under the slogan of Apartheid and white supremacy, and
ton the other side all the forces of democracy and pro-
gress gathered under the banners of ending race discrimi-
nation and establishing a living and all embracing demo-
cracy" . Is not that in agreement with the policy of your
organisation?— My lords, a description of the forces of
reaction and democracy would agree with our policy but
I am not quite clear, and I would not like to commit my-
self , on what is meant by a decisive clash; whether it
means a physical clash or a clash of ideas; it is not
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
clear, my lords.
But was it not discussed, Mrs, Joseph?— I cannot
remember now whether these documents were discussed in
detail or not. I know that theyw ere read, but I have al-
ready said that I do not recall what form the discussion
took. It is a very long time ago.
Is it possible that you are not fully acquainted
with the policy of your organisation?— I have always
thought that I w as fully acquainted with the policy of the
Congress of Democrats, as a member of the National Execu-
tive .
So you claim to know the policy?— I have always
felt that I did, yes; yes, I do claim to know our policy.
Here v.e have had no less than three papers, the
Springbok Legion circular, draft of Immediate Programme
of Action, The Road to Liberty - - all three putting
this as a view - two opposing forces in South Africa.
The one is the force of a total Demo-racy and the other
is total Pascism. This one saye - The Road to Liberty
speaks of the forces of reaction, as against the forces
of progress; they all follow that same line; do you
agree?— I have already said that that is , broadly speak-
ing, the way in which we view the situation. My objection
was to the fact that I did not understand clearly what
was meant in this paper by a decisive clash - what form
of clash was envisaged-, That was my sole objection.
Well, could it mean a revolution, Mrs. Joseph?—
I don't know.
Could i t ? — I don't know what was in the mind of
thewriter; I have not been given an opportunity of study-
ing the document, my lords,
14548 MRS. JOSEPH
Well, Mrs. Joseph . . . . ? — I don't know whether
he means a violent revolution clash or not. But I would
like to stress, my lords, that in the context of the policy
of the Congress of Democrats - none of these documents
are official policy statements of the Congress of the
5
Democrats, not t he letter of the Springbok Legion, nor
these two papers, which were presented by individuals to
the Conference. There was no South African Congress
of Democrats before that conference.
May "I refresh your memory, Mrs. Joseph. Was"The 10
Threatened People"issued as an official policy statement
by the Congress of Democrats?— Yes, my lords, I would
say that "The Threatened People" was.
And may I remind you that this paragraph of "The
Road to Liberty" was literally incorporated in "The Threa- 15
tened People"?— That may be so, my lords; I would have
to look at the "Threatened People".
BEKKER J; Well, can you produce that paragraph
now?
MR. LIEBEFBERG; "The Threatened People" is C.268 20
my lords. This is issued by the South African Congress of
Democrats?— Yes. I know this pamphlet„
Now, on page 31?"Toward singing tomorrow" is the
titles "South African affairs are moving to a decisive
clash, in which are ranged on one side all the forces 25
of South African reaction, gathered under the slogans
of Apartheid and White Supremacy, and on the other side
all the forces of Democracy and Progress gathered under
the banners of ending race discrimination and establish-
ing a living and all embracing Democracy. That clash has 30 been a long time in the making-- All South African history
14549 MRS. JOSEPH
1 has been pregnant with it but until recently it has been
possible for people everywhere to avoid taking sides* to
put off the day of decision t i l l tomorrow, or to convince
themselves that the clash would somehow miraculously post-
pone for decision by a later generation." Now, do you
5
agree that this portion from "The Road to Liberty" was em-
bodied in the policy statement of your organisation?—
Yes, my lords, I agree that it was embodied in i t .
And in this paragraph theword "clash" is used
no less than ";hree times?— Yes, my lords. May I add 10
something to that, I thought I was getting another ques-
tion?
RUMFFF J : Yes?— My lords, when I see the sentence
now in the framework of this extract from "The Threatened
People" then it does become more clear to m® and I state 15
that I certainly did not interpret i t , and I don't think
the writer intended it to be so interpreted, as a revolu-
tionary clash in the sense of a violent revolution. He
is merely emph^ ap? r .g that events in So114:^ Africa pre
moving to the point where people must take a decision; 20 they cannot any longer push it into the future. That
is what I see. I don't see it in the sense, now I see
it in this content, of a physical clash or a revolution,
a violent revolutionary clash.
MR. IIEBEEBERG% Mrs,Joseph, your organisation ^
wanted a clash between these forces?— My lords, I do not
know on what grounds that is put to me, that our organi-
sation wanted a clashc
According to this paper?— That is not my in-
terpretation of it at a l l , my lords, that there is any- 50 thing that indicates that we wanted that clash.
14550
MRS. JOSEPH
It merely states that people are being compelled to make a
decision, ax1 when I say people I mean the white people,
because this pamphlet was aimed primarily at the white
electorate. That they were being compelled by events
along the road where they would have to make a decision;
they were not any longer able to stay in the middle of
the road. They would have to decide in which direotion
they are going. That has always been the point of view
of the Congress of Democrats, my lords.
I want to put to you a passage appearing on
page 2 which reads as follows; "
RUMPFP J ; Of what?
MR. LIBBENBERG: Of "The Road to Liberty" , my
lord. This void in the democratic camp must be filled,
and filled soon i f the pending clash is not in fact
to take place on racial l ines " . Now do you agree, Mrs.
Joseph, that the idea of a pending clash is not repu-
diated here but welcomed,only that some steps should be
taken to prevent it from taking place along racial lines
? — I really don't see any implication of welcome; it
merely says if it is not to take place on racial lines.
But, my lords, I would again ask if I could see this docu-
ment. I t ' s not a welcome.
BEKKER J; Place the document before the witness.
Would you agree that it predicts a clash?— The
writer seems to have that in mind, yes, my lord. He
seems to feel that a clash is coming, but I'm not sure
of the nature of the clash until I have more opportunity
to see this document. Ylhen it appeared in "The Threa-
tened People" I understood it - - now this is another
portion.
14551 M S . JOSEPH
MR. LIEBENESERG % Mrs. Joseph, we had the word
'clash' so frequently in this Court. Sejake also spoke
of a clash at the Freedom Charter Committee Meeting. Do
you remember?— Yes, I remember, but I also, I think,
gave my idea of what he intended by 'clash ' .
5
What is the ordinary meaning of the word 'clash ' ,
Mrs. Joseph?— (Witness studies document). My lords,
in this whole paragraph, what I see is an emphasis on the
importance of a body amongst Europeans which would be
comparable to the Congresses taking its stand alongside 10 the Congresses, so as to avoid the clash in whatever
sense the writer intended the word 'clash ' , being only
on racial lines. In other words it is advocating an
organisation such as the Congress of Democrats. 'Clash'
doe s not appear to have a specifically violent meaning 15
here as I read i t , my lords.
The author seems to suggest that various groups
should co-operate together under the banner of democracy
to avoid a clash taking place - an impending clash -
taking place on racial lines , but I suggest to you, Mrs.
20 Joseph, on ideological lines?— I would like to be clear
as to what the Prosecutor means by ideological lines?
Your ideology as against the one that you des-
cribe as white supremacy?— That is so, my lords? that,
as I understand i t , is the meaning of this paragraph - 25
the importance of there being a body of people who would
beprepared to take their stand with the Congresses under
the banner of democracy«
And then work for this forthcoming c!b sh? —
Not work for i t , the forthcoming clash, at a l l , my lords. 30
14552 MRS. JOSEPH
There is no such implication here, my lords.
Well , Mrs. Joseph, perhaps this, "The Threatened
People" will help you,
RUMPFF J; Just before you go on, may I just
have a look at that document? Yes.
MR. LIEBEMBERGr? If your policy was one of
exerting pressure on the electorate and in that fashion
to secure changes, political changes, what have the
references to a clash on racial lines in that document
to do with it? Why refer to a clash on racial lines ,
and avoiding the clash on racial lines?— My lords, I
imagine that that reference fits into the context of
the whole docurait. I haven't yet read the whole docu-
ment .
I suggest to you that the reference to clash
there seems to indicate that you had no policy of exert-
ing pressure on the electorate?— My lords, that is
really incorrect. The whole purpose of the Congress
of Democrats was to exert influence on the European elec-
torate; that is why we were mandated to work amongst
them.
Why speak of a decisive clash, Mrs.Joseph
if you wanted to exert pressure on the electorate?—
My lords, I can think of quite a few reasons why one
would speak of a decisive clash; if one is addressing
oneself to the European electorate one would warnthem
about the dangers of the conflict that was developing;
I can see that it would be quite logical to mention
the clash. I cannot see that it is inappropriate.
Well , I suggest to you that that clash means
one thing, and that is violent action, Mrs. Joseph?—
10
15
20
25
30
14553 MBS. JOSEPH
My lords, I do not agree; I say again I have not yet
had an opportunity of refreshing my memory on the whole
document , but I do not think it is necessarily a violent
clash, or if the writer is speaking from the point of
view of prediction - of the possibility of a violent
clash, then it may well be that in the document he is
trying to put forward ways of how this can be avoided,
not that he is welcoming i t , because I cannot see that
that would be the line of policy adopted by a member of
the Congress of Democrats, but my lords, I must really
first read the whole document,, But to me it is incon-
ceivable that such a line as is suggested by the Prose-
cutor could have been put foiward at the Inaugural Meet-
ing of tiie Congress of Democrats; it would be totally
in conflict. »
This document, "The Threatened People" C .268 ,
on pages 7 and 8 has the following passage: "We can per-
sist in a belief that we can barri -ide ourselves within
a bastion of white supremacy; we can ignore the tide
of events everywhere in the world where the under privi-
leged and the backward are advancing towards the acqui-
sition of universally recognised human rights«> We can
await the prospects of South Africa having to shoot the
issue out as in Kenya 9" Does not that suggest that the
clash would be a violent one? The prospect of having
to shoot the issue out as in Kenya ?— My lords, as I
have heard it so far the writer is simply putting
foward a thing - the course of action which could be
adopted; we could await such a prospect.
He says "We can await the prospect"?— Yes, we
could carry on in our present way and face the danger of
14554
MRS. JOSEPH
such a prospect. That is how I would understand i t , my i
lords. That does not mean that we would wait in the sense
of welcoming it . I don't see any such indication here.
Well, shooting the issue OUT; as in Ken.]a, would
that be a decisive clash?— It would be; that would be
a decisive clash, but that to my mind in this context 5
I don't know the rest of it - - but I get the implication
that the writer is putting forward the suggestion that
we could do this; we could do this, but we ought to do
something else. I would like to know the rest of that,
what follows, because I have a strong feeling that that 10
is what is coming.
The alternative, the other alternative, he says
is to "grant full rights to these people" - to the non-
Europeans; that is the other alternative?— Well , my
lords, that is the stand of the Congress Movement. 15
And if that demand of the Congress Movement
is not satisfied, then there will be a shooting out
as in Kenya?— My lords, the writer has put it as one
of the possibilities; he has not made a prophesy about
i t . These things did happen in Kenya, they did happen 20
in other places; to my mind, to say that we can await
such things doesnrt mean to say that they are unnecessarily
going to happen. I think I must see the whole paragraph
- in its whole - to get a clear impression.
Your organisation is very clear about this,
that there is a tide of events everywhere in the world
where the under privileged and backward people are gain-
ing independence?— That, my lord, is a fact, it is so.
And he says "7e can ignore that situation
but the prospects in South Africa will then be one of a
14555 MIIS. JOSEPH
violent clash as in Kenya"?— My lords, I don't really
accept that interpretation because as I have listened to
that paragraph the writer says "We can do a number of
things". He doesn't stress one more than the other.
He says "We can ignore the tide of events, we can await
the prospects of the tragic occurrences of Kenya"; I
think the paragraph, my lords, really must be considered
as a whole. He is trying to set out some of the possi-
bilities that might happen in South Africa if we ignore
the trend of eventsc
Your organisation,incidentally did Mr.Bernstein
draft this pamphlet "The Threatened People". It would be
quite logical?— There seems to be a s imilarity of some
of the paragraphs; I don't remember whetherthis was
drafted by one individual or by two or three together.
And it goes on to say "The day has passed when
a thinking South African could believe that white supre-
macy would endure for ever, or even last for another
fifty years, long enough for our own life time. The
issues have now presented themselves for our decision".
My lords, may I assist; this pamphletThe Threatened
People" was read into Court as PA.22, my lords.
BEKiER Js Where do I find it?
MR. LIEBENBBRG: I ' l l give it to your lord-
ship. PA.22 from page 1386, and a gain, my lords, at
1405 and 5421, I ' l l give your lordships the reference
to that passage in a moment, my lords, the one I'm
reading now;"The issues have now presented themselves for
our decision; can a limited democracy survive? Can
open conflict be averted? These are the issues which
loom above all else, " How I 've read to you the whole
14556
MRS. JOSEPH
paragraph, Mrs. Joseph, and I suggest to you that the 1
author had in mind what h says here, 'open conflict ' ,
on page 1387 this passage appears, my lords?— My lords,
the writer certainly in this paragraph poses that ques-
tion, "Can limited democracy survive? Can open conflict
5
be averted?" I presume he then goes on to answer i t .
That's your organisation's view, Mrs. Joseph?—
I t ' s a questio, my lords? I don't know where the view
comes in . . .
I 'm dealing with the meaning of the word 'clash'
and I suggest to you that in this paragraph that I read 10
to you, i t ' s clear that 'clash' means an open conflict;
a violent conflict, a shooting out of the issue as in
Kenya?— My lords, in view of this paragraph which has
now been read to me, it now makes clear the meaning of
'clash' in the earlier pages of this pamphlet, but surely, 15
my lords, now this word has been used in this specific
context, where I agree here it is quite clear the writer
is seeking in his mind how this - what he foresees as
the possibility of open conflict - can be averted. Now
it becomes clear, my lords, as I see it . I t ' s not a 20
question of policy„
Not the writer , Mrs. Joseph, your organisa-
tion?— My organisation has always wanted to avert the
possibility of open conflict®
Your organisation issued this pamphlet, 25
"The Threatened People"?— Yes, my lord.
And your organisation says there are two
alternatives in South Africa. Either you grant the
non-whites all the rights they want, or else you will
face the prospect of having to shoot it out?— My lords, 30
14557 MRS. JOSEPH
that is stated in a very categorical way, but it is true
that our organisation believes that it is essential to
grant universal franchise and to grant rights to all people
in South Africa. And we certainly have a fear that if
these rights are not ultimately granted there is the pos-
sibility of chaos and of a violent situation in South
Africa, as there has been in other countries. My lords,
this is the very reason why our organisation takes its
stand with Congress Alliance who shares the same view
with us, my lords, Our aim is to seek these remedies
peacefully,
Mrs. Joseph . . . ? — To want to avert open
conflicts; we don't want i t .
Your organisation recognised the Fascist state
of development in South Africa?— That is s o . We have
referred to it as a Fascist State.
And you said there was no prospect of getting
any changes through or in Parliament?— Ho, my lords, I
qualified that already,.
Your organisation, Mrs, Joseph, I don't care
whether you qualified it or not - - your organisation
said that?— My lords, then I must ask where my organisa-
tion said it o
C„41 f "Notes on the political situation issued
by your National Executive Committee"?— Then I remember
discussing that and that was what we have said - that we
do not see any possibility of Parliament as it stands at
present voluntarily remedying the situation,, That is
true, that is why we advocate and support extra parlia-
mentary pressure in addition to the actual white electorate
14558
MBS. JOSEPH
itself , the small handful of sympathisers in the white
jf j . -4 ; . v
electorate. The white electorate we believe,through pres-
sure, economic and moral, will eventually see what lies in
their own interests. That is what we believe, my lords*
Mrs. Joseph, your organisation said it was dif-
ficult to mobilise the whites for the struggle for libe-
ration because they held illusions about constitutional
and parliamentary action?— Yes, my lords, I don't dis-
agree with that statement; it is difficult to mobilise
the whites on this basis - - i t ' s part of our task to make
them see it differently — you cannot do it just at the
moment through constitutional . . . .
And you recognise that as far as being able to
get the changes that you envisage, you were up gainst a
stone wall in South Africa? And that a violent clash
was the only solution?— My lords, the Congress of Demo-
crats has never at any time put forward the view that a
violent clash is the only solution,,
You deal with the mental state of the white
electorate; you say they suffer under illusions, you
condemn the Liberal Party as well . Mrs. Joseph?— My
lords, a s far as the Liberal Party is concerned, the
criticism of the Liberal Party was only at the time of
its inception when we did not agree with its policy,
but over the years the Liberal Party has modified its
policy greatly, and there is no longer any criticism.
We work together.
Mrs,Joseph, when your organisation came into
existence in 1953, if you had wanted to struggle intra-
parliamentary, it would have been the simplest thing for
14559
MRS. JOSEPH
you to join forces with the Liberal Party?— Our orga- 1
nisation was in existence before the Liberal Party.
When the Liberal Party came into existerc e -
don't evade the question, Mrs0 Joseph - - when the
Liberal Party came into existence - - I don't care 5
which came in first - - but at the stage when the
Liberal Party engaged in Parliamentary political action
it would have been the simplest matter for your organi-
sation to join forces with that body and fight inside
Parliament?— My lords, it would not have been, because 10
the Liberal Party then would accept and put forward the
idea only of a qualified franchise, and the Congress of
Democrats stood squarely on the full franchise. It
would not have been possible to join forces at that
stage.
MR. NOKlTEs May it please your lordships, 15
there is a request from the accused who are listening
through the earphones that Mr, Liebenberg speak a
little slower,,
RUMIW^Ts Yes,
MR. LIEBEEBERG; I 'm sorry, my lords. 20
You did not condemn the Liberal Party because of its
policy as to a limited franchise, so much as you con-
demned them for not joining forces with you and the
rest of the Congress Movement in extra parliamentary
action?— My lords, I cannot accept that statement 25
and I don't know where it comes from.
Mrs. Joseph, your first criticism of the
Liberal Party was that it stood aloof from the non-
European . .
RUMPFF Ji What exhibit is this? 30
14560
MRS. JOSEPH
MR. LIEBENBERG s I ' l l give your lordships the 1
reference. This comes from "Fighting Talk" , record
page 3036, "stood aloof from the non-European masses."
That is the passsage, my lords?— My lords, is this
being put to me as an expression of the policy of our
organisation? 5
Yes?— Then, my lords, may I ask in what form
it was expressed as the policy of our organisation? And
by whom?
It was in "Fighting Talk" , Mrs. Joseph?— My
lords, "Fighting Talk" is not the organ of the South 10
African Congress of Democrats.
Mrs. Joseph, please don't evade the question.
You know that "Fighting Talk" - the whole administrative
work connected with "Fighting Talk" was done in the office
of the South African Congress of Democrats?— "Fighting 15
Talk" Committee shared our office; it was not done by
the South African Congress of Democrats. My lords, I
must really protest, that unless the Prosecutor is pre-
pared to show me in what way this is a policy statement
of my organisation, I really cannot accept it as such. 20
FUMPFF Ji Yes„
MR. LIEBEKBERG-; Mrs. Joseph, you make things
difficult. In the Exhibit C c 294 , "Springbok Legion Na-
tional Conference 1953"? page 1779, my lords - " I t was
resolved that the National Executive Committee be re- 25
quested to enter into discussion with South African
Congress of Democrats with a view to the more effective
exploitation of "Fighting Talk" as a voice of the Demo-
cratic Movement. What do you say about that, Mrs.Joseph?—
14561
14543 MRS . JOSEPH
My lords, I say about that, what finally came out of
the discussions was the decision that "Fighting Talk"
should be an independent journal,
C. 299, page 1733, my lords, "South African
Congress of Democrats National Committee Meeting, 13th
February, 1954, contains the following: 'Recognising
the important role of "Fighting Talk" in the Democratic
Movement". That's your own National Executive on which
you serve, Mrs. Joseph?— Yes,
"Recognising the important role of "Fighting
Talk" in the democratic movement"; what do you say
about this?— About this statement?
Yes, the statement of the National Executive,
that "Fighting Talk is an important - plays an important
role in the democratic movement?— My lords, I don't
disagree with that statement, but it still does not make
"Fighting Talk" the official organ of the Congress of
Democrats.
And that steps should be taken to improve its
content?— Yes„
I put it to you that that shows clearly that
your National Body recognised "Fighting Talk" as the
mouthpiece?— It shows? my lords, that we recognised that
it played an important role but there is nothing in
this to indicate that it was our official mouthpiece,
or that any statement published in "Fighting Talk"
necessarily expressed the policy of the Congress of
Democrats. If the quotation, which the Prosecutor wants
to put to me, has been published over an official of the
South African Congress of Democrats, then I will accept
it as a policy statement, but I cannot accept it as such
14562
MRS. JOSEPH
unless I have that stamp on i t . "Fighting Talk'1 pub-
lished merely articles of people, members of all the »
Congresses - they were all free to write in their indi-
vidual capacity atfiidies for ''Fighting Talk" . I did
myself, my lords.
KENNEDY J : I seem to remember, we heard evi-
dence that it was managed by an independent committee
consisting of the three Congresses?— Three or four - -
yes, I think it was three, my lord.
That is officially stated?— Yes.
MR. LIEBENBERG: But it still indicates that it
is the mouthpiece of the Congress Movement, Mrs. Joseph
? — My lords, it really depends upon what one understands
by mouthpiece. It is not . . .
RUMPFF J : Where are you getting at - - is not
this an argument?
MR. LIEBENBERG: My lord, in relation to what
his lordship Mr. Justice Kennedy put, I followed on by
suggesting to her that the "Fighting Talk" , even if it
was managed by an independent committee . . . .
RUMPFF J ; I know - - pursuance of this matter
further - it will just lead to argument.
MR. LIEBENKERG: As your lordship pleases.
May I just put one more question, my lord? I won't go
too deeply into i t , I have many references left .
RUMPFF J ; Yes.
MR. LIEBENBERG: In your paper "Counter Attack"
Exhibit C . 52 , page 2084, my lords, the following appears:
"The Johannesburg Regional Committee has asked all C .O .D .
members to get at least five annual subscriptions to
Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812
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