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-So the $inal part o$ this lo+ post on .: smarter transaction $ees a+ain uotin+
$rom the lo+ post. &oda the transaction $ees are hardcoded into the
Bitcoin1&;Bitcoind !allet so$t!are and the rules surroundin+ those $ees are a
collection o$ heuristics that evolved over the last $our ears. 3n short the current
$ee handlin+ code is a complicated mess that !ill stop !or'in+ as soon as
transaction doules a couple o$ more times. 3n theor it should e simple.&ransaction $ees should e set +ive or ta'e et!een people creatin+
transactions !ho !ant to pa as little as possile and people validatin+ and
storin+ transactions miners !ho !ould li'e to e re!arded !ith hi+her $ees. And
the code that miners are usin+ toda to select transactions is simple: &he $ill
their loc's !ith the hi+hest $ee;'ilote transactions and hi+hest priorit
transactions i$ the choose to set aside some space in their loc's $or $ree
transactions. ?
Andreas M. Antonopoulos: @rom the earl das o$ Bitcoin 3 thin' the vision !as
al!as to ma'e the transaction $ees a mar'et an e$$icient mar'et !here the
price o$ the transaction is set to euilirium et!een suppl and demand. Suppl
ein+ the miners and demand ein+ the end-users o$ transactions. 9$$ectivel
ou !ould have euilirium at the est price possile on the net!or' at an time
and ou can ma'e choices: ou pa more ou +o $aster or ou pa less ou +et
a slo!er transaction time. &hat !as the vision un$ortunatel it hasn%t et
materialied ut is a reall +ood step in that direction. Here%s the prolem !ith
the mar'et dnamic ri+ht no!: even thou+h miners are settin+ a price implicitl
choosin+ !hich transactions the put into a loc' there%s no simple !a $or
that price to e communicated ac' to the mar'et so the prolem here is price
si+nalin+ it%s havin+ a !a to communicate that mar'et price ac' to the client
so the client can ma'e intelli+ent heuristic decisions aout !hat to pa $or the
ne0t transaction in order to achieve a speci$ic time +oal. @or instance 3 have a
transaction o$ ho! much do 3 need to pa toda to +et that transaction
veri$ied in three loc's miners. &hat%s the 'ind o$ uestion a client is as'in+.
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S.M.: -So that%s an automated process and !here does that process happen7 3n a
minin+ pool7 :D#?
A.A.: Fes it happens in the minin+ so$t!are. 9ach time ou are minin+ $or
somethin+ the $irst thin+ ou do is ou create a ne! loc' stic' all the
transactions in and then ou tr to $ind proo$-or-!or' a+ainst that ne! loc'. And
ou do that ever time ou are trin+ to $ind a loc'. &hat decision happens in
uildin+ that ne! loc' to $ind the proo$-o$-!or' and it%s part o$ the minin+
so$t!are. :"G?
S.M.: &han's $or clearin+ that up.:"?
A.A.: -So miners are reall alread settin+ the price. &he%re settin+ the price
ma'in+ a choice and that choice e$$ectivel is the decision o$ !hat transactions
to include in the loc' ased on the $ees that are in those transactions. o! the
uestion is ho! does the client tr to predict !hat%s +oin+ to happen there. And
this is the development that has een done in this particular case 3 thin' Iavin
has een !ritin+ essentiall code that uses in$ormation $rom previousl mined
loc's to tr to decide !hat the level o$ $ees in the net!or' is ri+ht no! and to
create transactions !ith the least $ees ou can pa and +et a!a !ith thecon$irmation time ou !ant. And to do that !hat Iavin is doin+ is he is usin+ a
historical analsis o$ transactions in the several past loc's then ta'in+ the
medium $ee;'ilote. Medium not avera+e that means the point in !hich hal$ o$
the transaction are more e0pensive and hal$ o$ transactions are less e0pensive
and the reason he pic's the medium is to avoid +amin+ the miners !here the
could stu$$ it a $e! miners could asicall ri+ the +ame to increase the $ees and
the is i$ ou have the simulation done e$$ectivel in the client then it could
decide !hat transaction $ees to include !ith the relativel hi+h de+ree o$
certaint that it !ill achieve it%s con$irmation time +oal !ith that level o$ $ee.
And it%s relativel hard to +ame ecause it !ould ta'e collusion multiple
miners or minin+ pools and an minin+ pool that ro'e $rom that cartel !ould
reap the ene$its o$ competition dra!in+ all o$ the transactions that have not
een serviced. So it%s a relativel e$$icient mar'et !ith +ood $eedac' loops +ood
price discover mechanism and $e!er opportunities to +ame. And it%s a mar'et
rather than a $i0ed $ee sstem. &hat%s the advancement that Iavin is su++estin+
and 3 thin' it%s a +reat ne0t step to!ards havin+ a mar'et ased transaction $ee.
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A.L.: 4eadin+ aout this reall made me thin' aout ho! Bitcoin compares !ith
the e0istin+ $inancial sstem. Because ou can loo' at !hat%s happenin+ here
!ith ho! the $ees are set in a reall similar li+ht to ho! !e use L3B/4 as a metric
to set rates in the %real !orld% and man other mar'ets that are out there. And
ecause there are so man people participatin+ in the minin+ sstem there reall
is no advanta+e in trin+ to +ame the sstem. 5hereas !ith the closed sstemli'e the L3B/4 sstem !here everone is participatin+ in the re+ulated
environment and ou have to e chosen to e on this oard suddenl the
opportunit $or collusion to tr and $leece the people !ho ou%re supposed to e
providin+ a service to *ust +oes throu+h the roo$ it seems li'e. ?
A.A.: 3 have to concern that no sstem can e desi+ned that !ill not e +amed
+iven su$$icient opportunit and mar'et participants !ho have developed an
advanta+e $or themselves !ithin the mar'et. All mar'et sstems +et +amed
eventuall. o! the real advanta+e !ith Bitcoin is even i$ Iavin sets this mar'et
discover mechanism toda and it starts +ettin+ +amed he could chan+e it in the
ne0t version o$ the client and then chan+e it a+ain and then chan+e it a+ain in a
ver pulic consensus driven approach that has ver ovious results in the
mar'et. &hat%s !hat ou can%t do !ith L3B/4 ecause ou discover the scandal
$our ears a+o and !hat e0actl has chan+ed in the calculation o$ L3B/4 -
nothin+. Mar'ets !ill e +amed. &he uestion is do ou have the capailit to
$le0il adapt to that +amin+ hit the reset utton and level a plain+ $ield a+ain.
All the other sstems are too ri+idJ Bitcoin is $le0ile enou+h to do that. &hat%s the
'e.
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addresses uic'l came to dominate and hardl anone used the pa-to-3P
$eature. 9ventuall it !as removed.E
8id either o$ ou +us ever use the 3P $eature7
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So o' that sounds +oodJ 3 had a little panic !hen the said this !as +oin+ to
replace Bitcoin addresses.
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satis$ those instructions sumittin+ a Pament messa+e. &he data is
desi+ned to e e0tensile in $uture so !e can add lots o$ use$ul $eatures.
3n $uture clic'ale itcoin lin's !ill loo' li'e this:
itcoin:9N9@BdKucir=G#KGG'D,cALCKF17
reuestOhttps:;;itcoinstore.com;r;aBcd9
5hen clic'ed our !allet app !ill do!nload the reuest 4L and read the
Pament4euest it +ets. &he reuest messa+e contains another 4L !hich is
!here to sumit the $inished transaction to (instead o$;as !ell as roadcastin+ it
to the P=P net!or').E
3 need some help understandin+ that Andreas. Basicall ou are +oin+ to clic' a
lin' and !hat happens a$ter that7 :D"?
A.A.: 3 thin' the !a to understand the Pament Protocol is to thin' o$ it
compared to the current situation !hen ou tr to u somethin+ $rom a store.
&he +ive ou an address ou put that address in our clients and ou create a
transaction !hich +oes out in the net!or' and eventuall reaches ac' to the
vendor. &hat%s a ver loosel coupled transaction. All the +ave ou is an address
and then ou *ust 'ind o$ thro! mone at it out there in the ether and hope that
some o$ that stic's and the merchant sees that transaction come ac' to them.
&his is a much more ti+htl coupled seuence !hereas it%s a three part. Fou as'
them %Ho! do 3 pa ou76 the send ou the parameters o$ ho! the pament
should e made !here the pament !ill e sent to and then ou send ac' to
the vendor the transaction si+n the si+ned transaction itsel$. o! that%s a 'e
point ecause $or man vendors i$ the have a !a o$ veri$in+ that the
transaction came ac' and !ent to the net!or' the can even accept it !ith
con$irmations. &he can trust it as properl si+ned ou 'no! ou%re not li'el to
doule-spend it ri+ht there so the can +ive ou a con$irmation. 5hereas
e$ore the *ust thre! ou an address and then listen on the net!or' and hope
that somethin+ came ac' to that address and it !as $rom ou and it !asn%t
in*ected as a doule spend and all o$ the other thin+s. 3t%s a much more ti+htl
coupled interaction !hich also allo!s ou to deal !ith prolems ecause ou
are +iven an address and ou send a pament and it%s not the ri+ht pament.
Ho! do ou do a re$und7 8o ou need to send more mone7 3s the invoice $illed7
8id ou +et a receipt7 All o$ those tpes o$ interactions at the moment at the
moment are outside the scope o$ the pament. All ou%ve done is sent and
address. 5hich !ith the Pament Protocol all o$ those can e in scope properl
de$ined so ou can have all o$ those separate parameters. 3t%s +oin+ to ma'e
Point-o$-Sale so much smoother
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A.A.: And $or users too. Because 'eep in mind that up to no! the !a to ma'e a
pament is to cop a DG character strin+ o$ +ierish or ta'e a photo o$ a !eird
suare !ith dots on it.
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$ree. .S. plaers are not allo!ed ecause America is a $ree countr. &he +host o$
Satoshi is !aitin+ $or ou @ind her at Satoshi8ice.com;&riute.E
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S.M.: &hat sounds +reat. o! memos !ould those memos e pulic li'e in the
loc'chain or are the *ust 'ind o$ $or our o!n in$ormation sain+ 3 ou+ht a
sa$e paper !allet 'it $rom Andreas... ?
A.A.: Feah this is an entirel outside o$ the loc'chain. &his is metadata that is
transacted durin+ the pament protocol. Basicall the in$ormation is sent to our
client !hich presumal !ill e displaed the screen perhaps as a !epa+e
tellin+ ou !hat this pament reuest is and it can e much more verose. So $or
e0ample ou could have a receipt that has a product name that has a picture o$
the product and a price and a ta0 ou paid and all the other in$ormation in that
memo and that !ill sho! up on ou screens so ou 'no! ou%re pain+ the ri+ht
person $or the ri+ht product.
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ErealE computer via SB. 3t has a displa and a couple o$ uttons. 3t holds our
private 'es. 5hen ou !ant to ma'e a pament the details o$ the pament are
sho!n on the screen and i$ the%re !hat ou !ant ou press / and thin+s +et
si+ned.
&here%s an ovious $la! !ith that desi+n !hen comined !ith Bitcoin as it istoda. &he Edetails o$ the pamentE ou%ll see on screen !ill loo' li'e this:
Pa ." B&C to 9N9@BdKucir=G#KGG'D,cALCKF17
5here did that address come $rom7 5ell it came $rom our computer the thin+
that proal has a virus on it. &hat virus could have s!apped out the address
sent the online shop ou%re usin+ $or one o!ned the virus author and
ecause the%re *ust random numers ou%d never 'no!. Althou+h the virus can%t
empt our !allet immediatel it can still steal paments !hen ou ma'e one
and avoidin+ that is the !hole point o$ usin+ special hard!are
&he pament protocol allo!s recipients to si+n their reuests under an EidentitE.
An EidentitE is *ust some aritrar strin+ that !as itsel$ si+ned some
Ecerti$icate authoritE. &he authorit vends si+ned statements that sa
(simpli$in+ a it): E3 Bo Smith elieve address
9N9@BdKucir=G#KGG'D,cALCKF1 is o!ned Mi'e HearnE. o! i$ our
&reor happens to trust that Bo Smith validates identities relial it can displa:
Pa ." B&C to Mi'e Hearn7
And that messa+e can%t e tampered !ith an virus. As ou can see this is
much sa$er.E
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notice ou are not +ettin+ an tips anmore7 And that our tips are msteriousl
disappearin+ into the ether. So it%s e0actl that 'ind o$ scenario ou can solve in
this case instead o$ havin+ *ust an address and te0t ou !ould have a si+n that
is part o$ the Pament Protocol ou +et a certi$icate a+ainst it so it can%t e
sustituted !ithout rea'in+ the certi$icate.
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S.M.: -So then he +oes into tal'in+ aout !h can%t !e use the PIP 5e o$ &rust
!hich asicall 3 don%t reall understand it that !ell ut PIP is a !a o$
encrptin+ emails and communications and other thin+s and the 5e o$ &rust is
!hen people validate and si+n each other6s% 'es that certain 'es elon+ tocertain people. &here used to e or still are some thin+s called 'e si+nin+
parties !here people !ill meet in person and sa %oh eah this person is !ho
the sa the are 3 can veri$ that their 'e actuall elon+s to them and 3%m
+oin+ to si+n their 'e% and then it%s creates this 5e o$ &rust !hich is a unch o$
people !ho have con$irmed that the all are !ho the sa the are and ou can
come to tap into that 5e o$ &rust to veri$ people%s 38. 3t%s 'ind o$ technical and
a little it on the lon+er side so mae !e !on%t +o into that ut Mi'e is sain+
that it%s reall not possile to comine the PIP 5e o$ &rust nor do the !ant to
!ith the ne! Bitcoin protocol. #?
A.L.: 3 thin' that this also +ets into the uestion aout should the per$ect e an
enem to the +ood7 ecause that%s essentiall the other ar+ument that Mi'e is
ma'in+ here is that es there are some prolems !ith the e0istin+ SSL
Certi$icate Authorit sstem notal that sometimes +et issued to people !ho
shouldn%t have them and that sort o$ taints the !hole thin+. So he las out a
couple o$ improvements that could e applied to this sstem as it is no!. But
reall that is the primar thin+ that this is an incremental step to!ards
somethin+ etter then !here !e are no!. 3s that ri+ht7
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A.A.: 3%d li'e to point out that also 3 don%t 'no! ho! much meanin+ to read into
this ut . is a prett si+ni$icant version numer in itsel$. &he decision to +o
versions that start !ith . is reall important ecause that means !e are no!
headin+ head-on the . release o$ Bitcoin. &hat%s the ne0t step. 9ssentiall theseare the release candidates and etas that !ill lead to the $irst o$$icial version or
release o$ Bitcoin. So it%s an important milestone to hit .. &he e0citin+
development in Linu0 happened et!een .. and ..K.
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$rontrunner and amusin+l the Sil'4oad out o$ all those three companies
proal has the est reputation
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!ith opensource pro*ects a lot o$ times is that there%s too much availailit o$
!or'ale solutions that don%t do the *o in a !a that%s accessile to people. &his
is especiall true !ith the Satoshi client 3 thin'.
5e%re *ust no! startin+ to see these ne!er !allets comin+ out that reall can
levera+e or ta'e advanta+e o$ ou 'no! *ust some o$ the asic usailit that%seen done over the last $e! ears. So these prolems are +oin+ a!a there%s a
!allet comin+ out called the Hive !allet that reall has a $ocus on usailit and
tries to continue this trend o$ ampli$in+ the Bitcoin streets !here anod can
ou 'no! reall +et into sort o$ a u!ord. But it%s reall not this hipster thin+.
3t%s !hat needs to happen. 5e need to $ocus on usailit.
Buin+ products BitPa is a ma*or ma*or plaer in that space. But at the same
time the !eren%t trin+ to reinvent the !heel as &on (Iallippi) said !hen it
comes to ho! !e u thin+s !ith Bitcoin. So to this point most merchants
acceptin+ Bitcoin use that standard shoppin+ cart $lo! !here ou add a product
to our cart and !hen ou are $inished !ith all our shoppin+ ou enter our
illin+ in$ormation pa the total !ith either our credit card or u !ith Bitcoin.
But reall Bitcoin doesn%t need anthin+ li'e that. 3t%s a !or'around created to
address prolems associate !ith identit ecause that o$ course has een
discussed ho! our mone !or's. Shall !e associate !ith identit to acuire
authoriation or permission and then ou are allo!ed to !ithdra! mone $rom
that essentiall. But !ith crptocurrenc since the holder is the o!ner !e don%t
need to do that anmore. And 3 thin' that our pament solutions aren%t +oin+ to
reuire an o$ those. Because these aren%t actuall help$ul at all and actuall it
creates more o$ a ris' situation than ou have i$ ou don%t do that.
Shameless plo here Let%s &al' Bitcoin has approved that is $ilmin+ this event and
!e%re sellin+ videocasts. 3$ ou +o to itcoinvideocasts.com then ou%ll see our
$irst documentation o$ !hat it%s called a BitCredits sstem. &he creators
Ale0andre Bour+et Luisa Buchanan have een !or'in+ on this $or the last couple
o$ months. 3t ta'es a loo' at this prolem that !e have o$ needin+ to associate
identit and it rethin's it $rom the crptocurrenc standin+ point. /ccupin+
aout one third o$ the pa+e and !ith the e0planation te0t !rapped around it ou
don%t actuall ever need to leave that pa+e in order to ma'e a pament. 3t *ust
has a little inter$ace o$$ there and it prompts ou $or the amount o$ mone that
ou are +oin+ to put in in .S. dollars and +ives ou that amount and it tells ho!
much that is in Bitcoin and ou can essentiall load this up !ith itcoin !here
then !e ta'e all the e0chan+e ris' and +ive ou ac' !esite credits that are
denominated in .S dollars and ou can u anthin+ on our sstem.
&echnicall this tal' is called %8oin+ usiness !ith a de$lationar currenc% and
people thin' this is the i+ prolem ecause !ho !ants to spend itcoins !hen
the are hard to acuire and the +ain value over time. &here has to e a
compellin+ reason and a$ter m e0perience !ith this BitCredits thin+ 3 !ant to
share m trip !ith ou. Char+e people more
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$or !hatever ou%re sellin+ and ou need to ta'e into account the $uture value o$
Bitcoin ecause our customer certainl is. And i$ the mental math doesn%t !or'
$or them the%re +oin+ to pa ou in dollars ecause !h shouldn%t the7 @or our
passes !e o$$er et!een a =-DQ discount that puts our sales around "Q
Bitcoin. o! oviousl 3 do a sho! called Let%s &al' Bitcoin and !e onl promote
this to our audience ut ou 'no! m e0perience has een that !hen 3%m trin+to u some +us reall !anted it. And !e do receive $unds $rom our sponsors in
Bitcoin and !e receive donations $rom our listeners in Bitcoin.
And so as 3 understand it reall is a valuale in$ormation $or me !here 3%m
sain+ i$ it is !orth it to e a part o$ this Bitcoin 'no!in+ that at a later date the
are +oin+ to e !orth!hile and +enerall 3 demand m DQ. 5henever 3%m doin+
services !ith someone or hire another !riter or somethin+ li'e that it%s has to e
+enerall e DQ and sometimes it%s a lot more. BitCredits is one option and 3 li'e
it a lot ecause it essentiall lets users pla mar'et a+ainst Let%s &al' Bitcoin.
5hen the u our o!n site%s credit all the volatilit is removed $rom theeuation. 5e do not ma'e credits in .S. dollars so ou can ma'e one
transaction !ith a Bitcoin memer to load up our !allet and an transaction ou
do on the site is instant and transaction e $ree
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&here are o$ course others !ho are trin+ to $ind this price the are
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ust li'e Bitcoin the onl arrier to entr is our time and +ood !or'. &han's $or
listenin+ #:=K?
and i$ ou +o ac' to
that => pa+e then ri+ht there on the $ront o$ it it sas %!e !ant to ma'e our
promises as +ood as a an'%s promises% ecause essentiall that%s !hat the%re
sain+ that%s !hen a an' e0tends credit the%re sendin+ a promise to pa.
3n the 4ipple thou+ht process the thin+ is i$ !e have the in$rastructure to issue
these credits *ust amon+st people then !h do !e need the an's in order to
$acilitate that same sort o$ transaction. 4ipple ultimatel loo's li'e it !as
desi+ned to maintain the $unctionalit o$ the an'in+ sstem !hile removin+ the
an'in+ sstem itsel$ $rom the euation. So the%re oth trin+ to solve this
prolem ut it reall is 'ind o$ $undamentall at odds ho! the%re trin+ to do it.
Bitcoin does a turn o!nership person to person ase sstem and 4ipple is uilt
on an interconnected net!or' o$ P=P credit. Bitcoins are holdin+ do!n !ith no
ris' on the redeemin+ part de$aultin+ ut !ith 4ipple that is a ris'. &he Bitcoin
sstem trans$ers o!nership o$ one thin+ itcoins. People can uild laers on top
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o$ it to do other thin+s ut at a protocol level it%s *ust itcoins on the Bitcoin
net!or'.
But !hat i$ ou don%t !ant to send itcoins7 &his is !here 4ipple is reall a +ood
option. 5hen ou send .S. dollars to the 4ipple sstem ou%re reall sendin+
3/s that can e redeemed some!here else in the sstem. 8ependin+ on ourneed to transact in non-Bitcoin terms this mi+ht e important. /r ou mi+ht
pre$er the hol o!n nature o$ crptocurrenc. And this is +ettin+ to e an
interestin+ thin+ as !e move to!ards a more pervasive Bitcoin $utureJ !e%re
startin+ to see a Bitcoin sstem develop !here ou reall can +et all o$ our
needs met !ithout ever touchin+ a currenc eside a crptocurrenc.
And ri+ht no! this is more true $or Bitcoin ut 3 thin' as !e move $or!ard !e are
+oin+ to see these in$rastructures develop !here the crptocurrenc
particularities don%t matter and it%s *ust crptocurrenc is accepted here and
!hichever one ou happen to use there%s an e0chan+e rate ased on that ased
on this mar'et mechanism.
o! 3 don%t thin' it%s $air to sa that 4ipple is Bitcoin =. 3 reall thin' it%s more
li'e a parallel evolution that rin+s it%s o!n stren+ths and !ea'nesses to the
tale. 3t etter $its the needs o$ some and it%s !orse $or others. But there%s no
uestion i$ 4ipple had matured e$ore Bitcoin came into use !e%d e havin+ a
ver similar conversation. And it !ould e *ust as !ron+ to call Bitcoin 4ipple =..
/ne o$ the liailities that 4ipple has all to itsel$ is a corporate structure.
&he ma'e the ar+ument as !ell as 3nvictus 3nnovations !hen the launched the
BitShares protocol that *ust ecause a compan desi+ns creates and releases aprotocol into the !ild doesn%t imue them !ith an responsiilit $or an
disruptions that protocol mi+ht cause.
Satoshi didn%t disappear ecause o$ all the appreciation that !as sure to e
sho!ered upon him rather the ris's o$ standin+ alon+side o$ such a disruptive
thin+ !as sure to +enerate a ad outcome. Mae not $or Satoshi ut someod
loses in that scenario ecause there are entities and individuals to !hom
pressure can e applied. 3t%s temptin+ to !ant la! en$orcement on our side.
&he%re scar $ol's doin+ a di$$icult *o. 3 used to have an unreasonale amount
o$ respect and a!e $or the people !ho appl our *ustice sstem ut over the last
$e! ears e0perience $inds that diminished. 3 see more arrests $or pett crimes
and no en$orcement o$ the la! !here the most e+re+ious violations have ta'en
place - $inance. ltimatel there isn%t much uestion here. 3n Bitcoin arrin+ a
re+istration process that sees pulic 'es issued to speci$ic names 3 don%t see
ho! ou tell si+nal $rom the noise on anthin+ ut speci$ic cases. 3n 4ipple 3
don%t 'no! ut 3%m prett curious.
3t%s also not surprisin+ that 4ipple Las ta'es this approach. 5hat choice do the
have7 3$ the%re seen as aidin+ or enalin+ ille+al activities the have $acilities
that can e raided assets that can e seied. Loo' at ho! la! en$orcement deals
!ith media pirac.
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8/14/2019 Transcription of Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 56
21/21
Anthin+ a pament net!or' !ould e +uilt o$ is or course !orse.
5e live in stran+e times ut some thin+s are so po!er$ul and dan+erous that to
si+n our name to them is tantamount to suicide. Mae not $or ou ut $or the
+oals o$ the pro*ect. o reason !h a pressured compan has to die i$ instead
the compl. 5ith mone the issues are al!as permission not technolo+.
&han's $or listenin+ to episode "# o$ Let%s &al' Bitcoin. Content $or toda6s sho!
is provided Stephanie Murph and Andreas M. Antonopolous. Music !as
provided ared 4uens. An uestions or comments email
adamUletstal'itcoin.com. See ou ne0t time