draft chapter 6 eu thy ph ro

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On he seps of he cour:Socraes case

[2a-3e]Inroducions. We mee Socraes, Euhyphro, he absen Meleus (Socraes pros-ecuor) andsreching a poinhe ciizens o Ahens. Socraes explains abou hiscase. He is accused o corruping he youh by inroducing new gods ino he ciy.

Euhyphros case:

Ough a son o prosecue a faher?[3e-5a]Euhyphro explains abou his own case. His aher caused he deah o a servan,who was himsel a murderer. Te quesion: ough a son o prosecue a aher? Howo know? Euhyphros firs sab a an accoun: amily ies don bind in hese maers.

Socraes enrolls:Wha is holiness?

[5a-6e]Socraes enrolls as Euhyphros pupil. Wha is holiness? Speculaion abou he

naure o he gods. A condiion on possible answers: no jus examples, a generalorm or idea mus be produced.

Firs atemp a definiion:Wha he gods love is holy

[7a-8a]Euhyphros firs aemp a definiion: wha he gods love is holy; wha is unloved byhem is unholy. An awkward consequence: some hings will be boh holy and unholy.

Injusice mus be punished;

Second atemp a definiion[8a-9d]

E: no one denies ha unjus killings mus be punished. S: bu here is disagreemenabou wha couns as unjus. How does Euhyphro know wha he gods will makeo his paricular case? And, again: wha is he definiion o holiness. Will i be: whaall he gods love?


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Do he gods love i because i is holy?Orders of explanaion

[9e-11b]Modified definiion: wha all he gods love is holy; wha hey all hae is unholy. Bunow a quesion: is he holy loved by he gods because i is holy, or is i holy becausei is loved by he god? An explanaion o he quesion ollows: eiher he good(holiness) comes firs, inducing love, or love induces he good qualiies (holiness).And an answer: he gods love hings because hey are good (holy). Tereore,Euhyphros definiion canno be correc. I implies a conradicion: i A is prior oB, and A = B, hen (by subsiuion) B is prior o A.

Saues of Daedalus;Conainmen relaions

[11b-12e]Euhyphros claims are like saues o Daedalus, running around in circles. A reshsar: all ha is holy is necessarily jus. Bu: is all ha is jus holy? Comparison wihhe case o ear and shame. Holiness is only one par o he domain o jusice. Buwhich par?

Care of he gods;Inconclusive conclusion

[12e-16a]Holiness is he par o jusice concerned wih he care o he gods. Bu wha soro care do he gods require? And why? Shrewd consideraion o he balance orade susaining he divine service indusry. Reurn o he proposiion ha whahe gods love is pious. Inconclusive conclusion.


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: W , S? Somehing ou o he ordinary, sincei has dragged you rom your usual hauns in he Lyceum o hang aroundhe archon basileus cour. Surely i can be ha you, like me, have a suipending agains someone beore he basileus?

: Te Ahenian erm or wha brings me here is no sui bu indic-men, Euhyphro.

E: Wha? Someone mus haveindiced you, hen. Teres noway you have indiced some-

one else.

S: No indeed.

E: Bu someone has indicedyou?

S: Tas jus i.

E: Who is i?

S: I don really know he man mysel, Euhyphro. He seems o be a youngman, and sill unknown. Hes called Meleus, I gaher. He belongs o hePihean deme, i you happen o know anyone rom here by ha namelong hair, hin litle beard, raher poiny nose.

E: Doesn ring a bell, Socraes. Bu whas he charge he brough againsyou?

S: Wha charge, you ask? No mean one, as I see i, or i is no small hing

or one so young o have figured ou such a serious siuaion. He says heknows how, and by whom, he young are corruped. More likely han nohe man is wise, so when he sees my dull ignorance corruping his wholegeneraion, he is provoked o denounce me o he ciy like a child run-ning o is moher. I hink he is he only one o our public men o makea proper sar in poliics. Ones primary concern really ough o be orhe young, so hey will become good menjus as is reasonable or a

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good armer o end young sprous firs, looking afer he res laer. In jushis way Meleus will sar off by uprooing weedssuch as myselhadamage he ender shoos o he young, as he says. Laer he will obvi-

ously urn his atenion o older men, hereby making himsel a source obouny and ruitul blessings or he ciy; a likely ae or anyone who sesou rom a saring poin as good as his one.

E: I hope so, Socraes, bu Im araid i may be jus he opposie. By ry-ing o hur you, i seems o me he makes a very crude sar, cuting a hevery hear o he ciy. Bu ell me, wha does he say you do o corruphe young?

S: I sounds like an oulandish business, my riend, when you firs hear i.

He says I abricae gods. He indics me, so he says, on behal o he oldgods, whom I don believe in, since Im busy making new ones.

E: I see, Socraes. Tis is due o he divine sign you saycomes o you now and again. Tis man has writenou his indicmen agains you as agains an innovaorin divine maters. He comes o cour o slander you,knowing such maers can easily be made o appear ina bad ligh beore he crowd. Tas how i is wih me,

oo. Whenever I speak up concerning divine matersin he assembly, and oreell he uure, hey laugh medown as i I were crazy. Ye I have never made a pre-dicion ha didn come rue. Tey envy hose o uswih such gifs. Bu you shouldn pay any atenion ohem. Jus ace hem head-on.

S: My dear Euhyphro, maybe being laughed a isn such a big deal. TeAhenians, i seems o me, don care much abou wheher so-and-so is

brainy, as long as he doesn teachhis peculiar brand o wisdom. Bu ihey sar o hink someone is bringing ohers round o his way o hink-ing, thenhe Ahenians ge riled upeiher ou o jealousy, as you say,or or some oher reason.

E: I cerainly don have any desire o pu heir eelings owards meohe es.

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S: Perhaps hey ake you or someone who is singy wih himsel, and nounduly eager o each your personal wisdom. Bu Im worried ha myondness or people makes hem hink I am ready o pour ou whaever

wisdom I have o anyone and everyoneno jus or ree, bu maybe wiha litle somehing exra ossed in, happily, i anyone is willing o lisen ome alk. Well hen, as I said jus now, i hey were jus going o laugh ame, as hey laugh a you, here would be nohing unpleasan abou heprospec o a day in cour, spen laughing and having un. Bu i hey areserious abou i, well, in ha case he oucome is somewha obscureexcep o prophes like you.

E: Perhaps i will all come o nohing,Socraes, and you will bring your caseo a graiying end, as I rus I will mine.

S: W , Euhyphro?Are you deending or prosecuing?

E: Prosecuing.

S: Who?

E: One whom I am hough insane o

indic.

S: Why? Is he a fligh risk?

E: Hes ar rom able o flee; hes acu-ally quie old.

S: Who is i?

E: My aher.

S: My dear sir! Your own aher?

E: Exacly so.

S: Wha is he charge? Wha is he case abou?

E: Murder, Socraes.

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S: Hercules! I imagine, Euhyphro, mos men don knowhow hings ough o be. I don hink jus anyone wouldbe able o do wha you are doing. Tis is a job or one

ar advanced in wisdom!E: Yes, by Zeusveryadvanced, Socraes.

S: Is i a case, hen, o your aher killing anoher rela-ive? Bu I suppose ha much is obvious. You cerainlywouldn be prosecuing your aher or killing a sranger.

E: Is ridiculous, Socraes, or you o hink i makes a difference wheherhe vicim is a sranger or a relaive. One should only consider wheher he

killer aced jusly or no. I he aced jusly, le him alone; i no, prosecueeven a killer who shares your hearh and home. You are jus as polluedi you inenionally remain under he same roo wih a person like ha,insead o puriying boh yoursel and him by bringing charges. Te vicimwas a dependen o mine, and when we were arming in Naxos he acedas our servan. In a drunken rage, he killed one o our household slaves,so my aher bound him hand and oo, hrew him ino some dich, hensen a man here o inquire o a religious advisor wha should be done. Inhe meanime, he didn show any consideraion o he man as he lay here

bound, and negleced him, hinking ha as he was a murderer i wouldnbe a big deal i he were o diewhich is jus wha happened. He diedrom hunger, he cold and his bonds beore he messenger came back romhe religious advisor. Now my aher and oher relaives are urious ha

I am prosecuing him or murder on behal oa murdererwhen, hey say, my aher didneven murder him! And besides, even i he hadjus completelymurdered him, he dead man,being a murderer, doesn deserve a second

hough. Tey say i is impious or a son oprosecue a aher or murderhas howwrong hey are, Socraes, abou how hingssand in he divine realm wih respec o holi-ness and unholiness.

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S: You on he oher hand, Euhyphro, hink your knowledge o he divine,o holiness and unholiness, is soaccurae haby Zeus!given ha i allhappened jus as you say, you have no ear o acing impiously now by

bringing your aher o rial?E: I would be o no use a all, Socraeshere wouldn be any differencebeween Euthyproand he man on he sreei I did no have accuraeknowledge o all such hings.

S: ha could possibly happen o me, admirableEuhyphro, is o become your suden and, beore he sui rom Meleussars, go offer o setle wih him. I would say o him ha even in he pasI hough i was very imporan o know abou divine maters, and now,since he says I do wrong by reaing religious subjecs carelessly and inno-vaing in hem, I have enrolled mysel as your pupil. I would say o him,

Meleus, i you gran ha Euhyphro is wise in hese maters, hen granha I have correc belies oo, and don drag me ino cour. I you dongran i, sue my eacher, no me, or corruping he oldboh me and hisaherby eaching me, and by admonishing and punishing his aher. Ihe won buy i, and doesn eiher drop he charge, or else pin i on youinsead o me, Ill ry ou he same line o deense in cour as I did in mysetlemen offer o him.

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E: Yes, by Zeus, Socraes! And i he should ry o indicme, I would find his weak spo, I hink, so ha alk inhe cour would sooner be abou him han me.

S: Im well aware o ha, my dear riend, which is whyIm so eager o become your pupil. I know ha neiherMeleus nor anyone else seems o cas you so much asa glance, whereas he has seen hrough me so sharplyand easily ha he has indiced me or impiey. So ellme now, by Zeus, ha hing you jus mainained you

knew so well: namely, wha is he naure o righeousness and unrigheous-ness, regarding murder and everyhing else. I ake i holiness always consissin some onehing, wih regard o every acion; and unholiness is alwayshe opposie o holiness, and he same as isel. For everyhing unholyalways appears o us in he same ormnamely as a orm o unholiness.

E: Mos cerainly, Socraes.

S: ell me wha you say, hen: wha do you say holiness is, and whaunholiness?

E: I say holiness is doing wha Im doing nownamely, prosecuing wrong-

doers, wheher he crime is murder or emple robbery or anyhing else,and wheher he culpri is your aher or moher or anyone else, and noprosecuing is unholy. And please noe, Socraes, ha I can poin you oa cerain prooone which I have already offered o ohersha his ishe law and ha i is righ or hings o urn ou his way, and ha we musno le a wrong-doer escape no mater whohe migh be. As i happens,hese people hemselves believe ha Zeus is he bes and mos jus ogods, bu hey admi ha Zeus bound his own aher or he injusice odevouring his sonsand ha he in his urn casraed hisaher on similar

grounds. Ye heyre angry a me or prosecuing my aher or wrong-doing! And so hey conradic hemselves in wha hey claim abou hegods and abou me.

S: Indeed, Euhyphro, isn his jus he sor o business ha has landed mein legal rouble, because I find i somehow hard o accep i when some-one says such hings abou he gods? Someone is likely o say I am going

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wrong on his very poin. Now, however, i youwho know all abou hissuffbelieve hese ales, hen I mus, i seems, give way. Wha else can Isay, since I reely admi I know nohing abou i? ell me hen, in he name

o he god o riendship, do you really believe hese hings happened?

E: Yes, Socraes, and even more asonishing hings as wellhings hamos people don know.

S: So you believe ha he gods really go o war wih one anoher, ha

here are haeul rivalries and batles beween hem, and oher hings ohis sor, like he ones narraed by he poes, or represened in variedways by our fine arissparicularly upon he robe ha is carried up ohe Acropolis during he grea Panahenaic esival, which is embroideredwih all hese sors o designs? Should we agree hese hings are lierallyrue, Euhyphro?

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E: No only hese hings, Socraes. As I was jus saying, I will, i you wish,relae many oher hings abou he gods ha Im quie sure will asoundyou when you hear hem.

S: I wouldn be a bi surprised. Somedaywhen youve go ime on yourhandsyou mus ell me all abou i. In he meanime, ry o speak moreclearly abou wha I was asking jus now. Because, my riend, you did noeach me adequaely when I inquired as o wha holiness is. You old me

ha he hing you happen o be doing a he momennamely, prose-cuing your aher or murderis holy.

E: And wha I said was rue, Socraes.

S: Ta may be. Bu here are los o oher hings, Euhyphro, ha youwould also claim are holy.

E: Yes, here are.

S: Keep in mind, hen, ha his isn wha I asked you o doo give meone or wo examples ou o he many holy acions. Raher, I asked whaessenial orm all holy acions exhibi, in virue o which hey are holy. Foryou did agree all unholy acions are unholy and all holy acions holy invirue o some shared orm, or don you remember?

E: I remember.

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S: ell me hen wha his orm is, so ha I can pay close aten-ion o i and use i as a paradigm o judge any acion, whehercommied by you or anyone else. I he acion be o he righorm, I will declare i holy; oherwise, no.

E: I ha is how you wan i, Socraes, ha is how I willgive i o you.

S: Tas wha I wan.

E: W , is holy; wha is unlovedby hem is unholy.

S: Magnificen, Euhyphro! You have

now answered in jus he way I waned.Wheher your answer is ruehasa litle somehing I don know ye.Is obvious, hough, ha you aregoing o show me ha wha yousay isrue.

E: Oh, cerainly.

S: Come hen, le us examine your words.A man or deed loved by he gods is holy. On he oher hand, a man ordeed haed by he gods is unholy. Tey are no one and he sameinac, hey are diamerical opposies: he holy and he unholy. Isn ha so?

E: I is indeed.

S: Tis seems o you a sound proposiion?

E: I hink so, Socraes.

S: Haven we also declared, Euhyphro, ha he gods exis in a sae odiscord, ha hey disagree wih each oherindeed, ha hey hae oneanoher. Haven we said his, oo?

E: We did say ha.

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S: When hared and anger arise, Euhyphro, wha sors o disagreemensare likely o be he cause? Les look a i his way. I you and I were o geino an argumen abou which o wo numbers was greaer, would his

difference o opinion urn us ino enemies and make us urious wih eachoher, or would we si down, coun up, and quickly smooh our differences?

E: Te later, cerainly.

S: Likewise, i we had a figh abou he relaive sizes o hings, we wouldquickly end he disagreemen by measuring?

E: Tas so.

S: And we would employ a scale, I hink, i we disagreed abou wha washeavier and wha ligher?

E: O course.

S: Wha sors o hings migh we argue abou ha would make us angryand hosile owards one anoher, i we couldn reach agreemen? Maybeyou don have an immediae answer, bu le me sugges somehing. Seewheher i isn hese hings: jusice and injusice, beauy and ugliness,good and bad. Aren hese he very hings or causing dispues which,

when we are unable o reach any saisacory agreemen, make peoplebecome enemies, whenever we do become enemieswheher you andI or anybody else?

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E: Tas jus how i goes in argumens abou such hings, Socraes.

S: Wha abou he gods, Euhyphro? I in ac hey ge ino argumens,won hey be abou hese sors o hings?

E: Ta mus be how i is, Socraes.

S: Ten according o your argumen, good Euhyphro, differen gods con-sider differen hings o be jus, beauiul, ugly, good, and bador heywouldn be a odds unless hey disagreed abou hese hings, would hey?

E: You are righ.

S: Each o hem loves wha each considers beauiul, good, and jus, andeach haes he opposie o hese hings?

E: Cerainly.

S: Bu now he very same hings, according o wha you say, are consideredjus by some gods bu unjus by ohers. Is because hey disagree wih oneanoher abou hese hings ha hey quarrel and war one anoher, isn i?

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E: I is.

S: Te same hings, hen, are loved by he gods and haed by hegods, and will be boh god-loved and god-haed.

E: I seems likely.

S: And he same hings will be boh holy and unholy, accord-ing o he erms o his argumen?

E: Im araid so.

S: S , youman o mysery. I did no ask you or

somehing which, while remaining oneand he same, is boh holy and unholy.Bu i appears wha is loved by he godsis also haed by hem. So i won beoo surprising i he hing youre doingnownamely, punishing your aherispleasing o Zeus bu haeul o Kronos andOuranos; is pleasing o Hephaesus bu haeulo Hera. And he same goes or any oher gods who may disagree wih

one anoher abou he mater.

E: I hink, Socraes, ha here we have somehing no god would dispue:whoever kills anyone unjusly mus pay he penaly.

S: Well now, Euhyphro, have you ever heard any man arguing ha onewho has murdered or oherwise aced unjusly should no pay he penaly?

E: Tere are endless dispues abou his sor o hing, boh in and ou ohe cours, because wrongdoers will say and do anyhing o avoid ge-ing punished.

S: Do hey admi hey have done wrong, Euhyphro, bu mainain ha,even so, hey should no be punished?

E: No, hey don admi i a all.

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S: So hen hey don say or do jus anyhing. For hey don presume oclaim ha, nor do hey deny ha hey should pay he penaly ifhey didwrong. I hink hey jus deny heir guil, don hey?

E: Tas how i is.

S: Ten hey don dispue this: wrongdoers mus be punished. Maybehey jus disagree abou who did wrong, wha hey did, and when.

E: You are righ.

S: Don he gods have he same experiencei indeed hey are a oddsabou jusice and injusice, as your argumen mainains? Some say somehave done wrong, while ohers deny i? For surely, my riend, no one,eiher among gods or men, goes so ar as o say a wrongdoer should nobe punished.

E: Yes, ha is basically rue, Socraes.

S: So paries o a given dispue, wheher gods or men, dispue abou eachseparae acioni in ac he gods ever dispue. Some say he hing wasdone jusly, ohers unjusly. Isn ha how i goes?

E: Yes, indeed.

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S: Come now, my dear Euhyphro. ell me, ha I may be he wiser or i,wha proo do you have ha all gods deem his man unjusly killedhisservan-urned-murderer, bound by he maser o his vicim, who died in

bondage beore his capor learned rom he seers wha was o be doneabou himand ha all gods consider i righ or a son o denounce andprosecue a aher on behal o such a person? Come, ry o show meclearly ha all he gods definiely believe his acion o be righ. I youcan demonsrae his adequaely I will sing he praises o your wisdomorevermore.

E: Perhaps his is no small ask, Socraeshough I could show you veryclearly indeed.

S: I quie undersand ha you hink Im dull-wied compared o he jurors,since obviously you are going o show hemha hese acions are unjusand haed by all he gods.

E: I will show hem veryclearly, Socraes, i only hey will lisen o me.

S: Tey will lisen so long as you seem o be speaking well. Bu somehingoccurred o me while you were alking, a hough I am even now urningover in my mind. Suppose Euhyphro does show me conclusively ha all

he gods consider such a deah unjus. o wha exen will he herebyhave augh me he naure o holiness and unholiness? Ta such a deedis haed by all he godsso much would seem o ollow. Bu a definiiono holiness and unholiness does no, or wha is haed by he gods has alsobeen shown o be loved by hem. So I won keep pressing he poin. Leus gran, i you like, ha all gods consider his hing unjus and hae i. Ishis, hen, he only correcion we wish o make o our accounnamely,ha wha all gods hae is unholy, whereas wha hey all love is holy, andwha some gods love and some hae is boh or neiher? Is his how we

now wish o define holy and unholy?

E: Is anyhing sopping us, Socraes?

S: No as ar as Im concerned, Euhyphro, bu consider your own posi-ion. See wheher his proposal will pave he way o he insrucion youpromised me.

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E: I he holy is wha allhe gods love, and he opposiewha allhe gods haeis unholy.

S: Ten le us examine, once again, wheherwha we have here is a sound proposiion.We could, o course, jus le i pass. Wheneverweor anyonesay somehing is so, wecould simply ake i o be so. Alernaively,we could look and see wha i all means.

E: We mus look and see, bu I really hinkwha we have now is a sound proposiion.

S: And soon we will know beter abou ha.Consider his: is he holy loved by he godsbecause i is holy, or is i holy because i isloved by he gods?

E: I don know wha you mean, Socraes.

S: Le me ry o explain more clearly. We speak o somehing carried ando a carrier; o somehing guided and a guide; o somehing seen and one

who sees. You undersand ha, in every case o his sor, hese hings aredifferen rom one anoher, and how hey are differen?

E: I hink I do.

S: Similarly, isn here somehing which is loved and somehing whichloves, separae rom i?

E: O course.

S: ell me hen wheher he hing carried is carried because someone car-ries i, or or some oher reason.

E: No, has he reason.

S: Likewise, he hing guided is guided because someone guides i, andhe hing seen is seen because someone sees i.

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E: O course.

S: I isn ha someone sees i because he hing isseen. Is he oher way round: i is seen because

someone sees i. Likewise, somehings being guideddoesn cause is guide; he hing is guided becauseo a guide. Nor do carriers come o be by hingsgeting carried; insead, hings are carried becausesomeone carries hem. Is wha I am geting a clear,Euhyphro? I mean his: when somehing comes obe, or undergoes some effec, i doesn come obe because is in a sae o becoming. Raher, i is in a sae o becom-ing precisely because i is coming o be. Likewise, effecs don happenbecause hings undergo effecs; effecs happen because o causes. Ordon you agree?

E: I do.

S: Eiher he qualiy o being lovedbelovednessis somehing hajus comes abou, or i is somehing brough abou by someones love?

E: Cerainly.

S: So his case is analogous o hose jus menioned: he hing is no lovedbecause o is belovedness; raher, i is beloved because o one wholoves i.

E: Necessarily.

S: Wha hen do we say abou holiness, Euhyphro? Surely ha i is lovedby all he gods, by your accoun?

E: Yes.

S: Is i loved because i is holy, or is here some oher reason?

E: Tere is no oher reason.

S: I is loved hen because i is holy, bu i is no holy because i is loved?

E: So i seems.

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S: And because he gods love i, i becomes loved by he gods andgod-beloved?

E: O course.

S: Wha is loved by he gods is no, hen, idenical o wha is holy, Euhyphro,nor does holy mean god-beloved, as you mainain. Tese are disinchings.

E: How so, Socraes?

S: Because we agree ha wha is holy is loved because o is holiness. Iisn holy because i is loved. Isn ha so?

E: Yes.

S: And, on he oher hand we agree ha wha is god-beloved is so, jusbecause he gods love ihas jus wha i is o be god-beloved. Is nohe case ha hey love i becauseis god-beloved.

E: rue.

S: Bu i ha which is god-beloved and ha which is holy were one andhe same, dear Euhyphro, and i he holy were loved because i was holy,

hen wha is god-beloved would be loved by he gods because i wasgod-beloved! And i he god-beloved were god-beloved because i wasloved by he gods, hen he holy would also be holy because i was lovedby he gods. Bu now you see we have wo quie opposie sors o casesherevery differen rom one anoher. We have someone who loves ahing, making i be loved; and we have a lovable hing, which makes some-one love i. Im araid ha when I asked you wha holiness is, Euhyphro,you didn wan o make is naure clear o me. Insead, you old me abouone o is properiesnamely he propery holiness has o being lovedby all he gods. Bu you have ye o ell me wha holiness is in isel. Now,i you please, sop hiding hings rom me and sar over again rom hebeginning, elling me wha holiness is. Never mind wheher i is loved byhe gods, or has some oher such qualiywe won argue abou habu ell me reely wha holiness and unholiness are.

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E: B S, I possibly explain o you whaI have in mind, because every ime we advance someproposiion i runs around in circles somehow, reus-

ing o say where we pu i.S: Your proposiions, Euhyphro, seem like he workso my ancesor, Daedalus. I i were mesaing hemand seing hem orh, you migh make un o me, say-ing ha, due o my relaion o him even my works inwords run away rom me and won say where heyrepu. As i is, hese proposiions are yours, so we needsome oher jokehey really won say pu, as youyoursel have noiced.

E: I hink ha joke suis our discussion well enough, Socraes, because Imno he one making hese hings wander around and ail o remain in onespo. I hink youre he Daedalus here, because hey would have sayedpu i i were up o me

S: Ten i looks as i I mus be even moreerribly clever han Daedalus, myriend, since he se only his own creaions in moion, while I have appar-enly animaed boh my own and hose o ohers. And he pinnacle omy genius is ha I am clever wihou waning o be, or I would give uphe wealh o analus as well as he cleverness o Daedalus, i only mywords would say and remain fixed in one spo. Bu enough o his. Since

you seem inclined o slack off, Ill have o share myexciemen wih you so ha you can each me abouholiness somehow. So don give up beore you find

a way! Consider wheher you hink all ha is holyis necessarily jus.

E: I hink so.

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S: So, hen, is allha is jus holy? Or is i raher ha while all ha is holy isjus, no all ha is jus is holy, bu some is and some no?

E: You los me here, Socraes.

S: And ye you oushine me as much in your youh as you do in wisdom!As I was saying, your rich die o wisdom has made you sluggish. Pull your-sel ogeher, my good man, because he hing Im saying is no ha hardo grasp. I am saying he opposie o wha ha poe said, who wroe:

Zeus, who has brought all that to pass, and made itgrow, you will not name/ For where there is fear thereis also shame.

I disagree wih he poe. Shall I ell you why?

E: Please do.

S: I don hink ha where here is ear here is alsoshame, or I hink many people who ear disease andpovery and many oher hings eel ear bu are noashamed o wha hey ear. Don you agree?

E: I do indeed.

S: Bu where here is shame here isalso ear. For is here anyone whoeels shame and conriion abou some maer, who does no a he sameime ear and dread a repuaion or wickedness?

E: He will ear i.

S: Ten i isn righ o say, where here is ear hereis also shame, raher ha where here is shame hereis also ear. Bu shame is no everywhere ha ear is,since ear covers a wider area han shame. Shameis parto ear, jus as odd is par o he concepo numberrom which i ollows ha i isn rueha where here is number here is also oddness.Raher, where here is oddness here is also num-ber. Do you ollow me now?

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E: Absoluely.

S: Tis is he kind o hing I was asking abou beore:where here is jusice, mus here be holiness? Or is i

raher ha where here is holiness, here is also jusice,since jusice is no coexensive wih holinessholi-ness is a par o jusice? Shall we say so, or do youhink oherwise?

E: No, has fine; I hink wha you say is righ.

S: See wha comes nex: i holiness is par o jusice, wemus, i seems, find ou wha par o jusice i migh

be. Now i you asked me a similar quesion abou hehing I jus menionedwha par o he concep o number is even, andwha kind o number i was, I would say: a number which can be dividedevenly, raher han unevenly, by wo. Or don you hink so?

E: I do.

S: ry o give me a similar accoun o whapar o jusice holiness is, so ha we can ellMeleus no o wrong us any more, and no

o indic me or sacrilege, since I have learnedenough rom you o be able o ell he differ-ence beween wha is sacred and holy andwha is no.

E: I , S, ha piey and holinessare ha par o jusice concerned wih hecare o he gods, while he par o jusice con-cerned wih he care o men comprises he

res.

S: Wha you say seems excellen, Euhyphro,bu Im sill unclear on one tinypoin. I donye know wha you mean by care, or youdon mean care o he gods in he same senseas care o oher hings. We say, or example

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don we?ha no everyone knows how o ake care o horses, onlyhe horse-breeder does.

E: Yes, I do mean i ha way.

S: So he ar o horse breeding is he care o horses.

E: Yes.

E: Nor is i he case ha everyone can care or dogs, bu he huner knowshow.

E: Ta is so.

S: So he ar o huning is he care o dogs.

E: Yes.

S: And ha o catle-raising he care o catle.

E: Quie so.

S: So, he ar o holiness and piey is he care o he gods, Euhyphro. Isha wha you mean?

E: I is.

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S: Doesn each o hese ypes o care aim a he same resul? I mean some-hing like his: i aims a some good or benefi o he hing being caredor. Jus as you see ha horses, when hey are cared or, gain some ben-

efi and are made beter. Or don you hink so?E: I do.

S: So dogs are benefied by he ar o huning, catle by he ar o catle-raising, and so on and so orh. Unless you have some noion ha careaims a harming he hing cared or?

E: By Zeus, no.

S: I aims o benefi he objec o care?

E: O course.

S: Is holiness henbeing he care o he godsalso a benefi o hem,somehing ha makes he gods beter? Would you agree ha when youdo somehing holy you improve some one o he gods?

E: No, by Zeus, I would no!

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S: I didn hink ha was wha you meanquie he conrarybu haswhy I asked wha you mean by care o he gods. I couldn believe youmean his kind o care.

E: Quie righ, Socraes. I didn mean his kind o care a all.

S: Very well, bu wha kind o care o he gods would holiness be?

E: Te kind o care, Socraes, ha slaves ake o heir masers.

S: I undersand. Holiness is shaping up o be a kind o service o he gods.

E: Exacly.

S: Could you ell me: wha is he goalha service o a docor serves obring abou? Don you hink i would be healh?

E: I hink so.

S: Wha abou being o service o shipbuilders? Wha goal would haservice aim o accomplish?

E: Clearly, Socraes, he building o a ship.

S: And as o being o service o housebuilders: he goal would be houses?

E: Yes.

S: ell me hen, my good sir, wha is he poin o he service men provideo gods? You obviously know since you say ha you, o all men, have hemos complee knowledge o diviniy.

E: And I speak he ruh, Socraes.

S: ell me hen, by Zeus: wha magnificen resul is i ha he gods achieve

when hey employ us as servans?

E: Many fine hings, Socraes.

S: And he same goes or generals, my riend. All he same, you wouldno have any rouble elling me ha he main poin o wha hey do is oachieve vicory in war. Isn ha so?

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E: O course.

S: Farmers oo, I hink, produce many fine hings, busill, he main poin o wha hey do is o bring orh

goods rom he earh.

E: Quie so.

S: Well hen, wha is he main poin o he many finehings ha he gods achieve?

E: I old you jus a litle while ago, Socraes, ha i is no easy mater oarrive a precise knowledge o hese hings. Neverheless, o pu i simply,I say ha i a man knows how o please he gods in word and deedwihprayer and sacrificehen his are holy acions ha suppor and susainprivae houses and public affairs alike. Te opposie o hese pleasingacions are unholy, and overurn and desroy everyhing.

S: You could have been much more concise, Euhyphro, i you waned o,by answering he main par o my quesion. Youre no exacly dying oeach meha much is clear. You were jus on he poin o doing so, buyou urned aside. I you had given ha answer, I would already be wellversed in holiness, hanks o you. Bu as i is, he lover o inquiry mus chase

afer his beloved, wherever he may lead him. Once more hen: wha doyou say ha he holy is, or holiness? Don you say is a kind o scienceo sacrifice and prayer?

E: I do.

S: o sacrifice is o give a gif o he gods; o pray iso ask hem or somehing?

E: Definiely, Socraes.

S: Ten holiness mus be a science o begging romhe gods and giving o hem, on his accoun.

E: You have grasped my meaning perecly, Socraes.

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S: Ta is because I wan so badly o ake in your wisdom ha I concen-rae my whole inellec upon i, les a single word o yours all o heground. Bu ell me, wha is his service o he gods? You say i is o beg

rom hem and give o hem?E: I do.

S: And o ask correcly would be o ask hem o give us hings we need?

E: Wha else?

S: And o give correcly is o give hem in reurn wha hey need rom us?For i would hardly represen echnical skill in giving o offer a gif ha isno needed in he leas.

E: rue, Socraes.

S: Holiness will hen be a sor o ar or barering beween gods and men?

E: Barering, yesi you preer o call i ha.

S: I don preer o, i i isn rue. Bu ell me, wha good do he gifs hegods receive rom us do hem? Wha hey give us is obvious enough.hereis no good we enjoy ha does no come rom hem. Bu how is heir lo

improved by wha hey receive rom us? Or have we goten so much hebeter o hem in our barer ha we ge all heir blessings, while hey genohing back in reurn?

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E: Do you really hink, Socraes, ha he gods receive somebenefi rom wha hey ge rom us?

S: Wha else could hese gifs rom us o he gods be, Euhyphro?

E: Wha else, indeed, excep or honor, reverence,and ha hing I menioned jus now, graiude?

S: Holiness, hen, is pleasing o he gods,Euhyphro, bu no beneficial or dearo hem?

E: I hink o all hings i is mos dearo hem.

S: So he holy is once again, i seems,wha is dear o he gods.

E: Mos cerainly.

S: Afer saying ha, will you be ason-ished ha your argumens won sandsill bu sar wandering off? And willyou accuse meo being he Daedalus whomakes hem walkhough you yoursel are ar more skillul han Daedalus,since you can acually make hings run in a complee circle? Perhaps ihas escaped your noice how our argumen has revolved and come righback where i sared? You surely remember how, a litle while ago, wesaid ha holiness and wha is loved by he gods were no he same, budisinc rom one anoher. Or don you remember?

E: I do.

S: Don you see ha now you are saying ha wha is dearo he gods is wha is holy? Is his he same as wha is lovedby he gods, or isn i?

E: I cerainly is.

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S: Eiher we were wrong abou wha we agreed o beore, ori we wererigh henwere wrong now.

E: Ta seems o be so.

S: So we have o begin again a he very beginning, o invesigae whaholiness is. And I won willingly give up beore I figure i ou. Don hinkme unworhy; insead, concenrae your atenion o a supreme degreeand ell he ruh. For you know his hing, i any man does, and so I willcluch you as ighly as i you were Proeus himsel, unil you ell me. I youdid notknow precisely wha is holy, and wha unholy, you would neverhave underaken o prosecue your aged aher or murder on behal oa slave. You would have been araid o risk he wrah o he gods, in case

you should be acing wrongly, and you would have el shame beoreyour ellow men. As i sands I am cerain you believe you know preciselywha is holy and wha no. So ell me, my good Euhyphro, and don keepsecre wha you hink i is.

E: Some oher ime, Socraes. I am in a hurry, and I really have o go now.

S: Wha are you doing, my riend? Will you leave, and cas me downrom he high hope I had, ha by learning rom you wha is holy and

wha no, I migh have escaped Meleus indicmen? I hoped o showhim hahanks o EuhyphroI have become wise in divine ma-ers, and ha I no longer proceed carelessly hrough my ignorance, normake innovaions wih regard o hem, and mos o all ha I will live abeter lie rom now on!

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