Earl Graves Oral History Interview- RFK #6, 5/7/1970

Administrative Information

Creator: Earl Graves

Interviewer: Roberta W. Greene

Date of Interview: May 7, 1970

Place of Interview: New York, New York

Length: 43 pp.

Biographical Note

Graves, Earl; administrative Assistant to Senator Robert F. Kennedy [RFK], New York

(1965 - 1968). Graves discusses the Bedford-Stuyvesant project, his and RFK’s

involvement, project management issues, and the roles played by men such as Tom

Johnston, Ed Logue, and John Doar, among other issues.

Access Restrictions

Portions closed.

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Transcript of Oral History Interview

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Suggested Citation

Earl Graves, recorded interview by Roberta W. Greene, May 7, 1970, (page number),

Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program.

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

Legal Agreement Pertaining to the Oral History Interviews

of EARL G. GRAVES

Interviewed by: Roberta Greene

In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of title 44. United States Code, and subject to the tem1s, conditions, and restrictions hereinafter set forth, I, EARL GRAVES, JR., hereby give, donate, and convey to the United States of America all my rights, title, and interest in the recording and transcript of the personal interview(s) (hereinafter referred to as Materials) conducted with ROBERTA GREENE (Interviewer) on July 17, 1969; July 18, 1969; August 28, 1969; August 30, 1969; October 23, 1969; May 7, 1970; June 18, 1970 for deposit in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library.

This assignment is subject to the following terms and conditions: (I) The transcript and recording shall be available for use by researchers as

soon as they have been deposited in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and reviewed by archives staff for information that would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy and/or information the protection of which is essential to the Nation's security.

(2) I hereby assign to the United States Governn1ent all copyright we may have in the Materials.

(3) Copies of the recording may be provided by the Library to researchers upon request.

(4) Copies of the Materials may be deposited in or loaned to institutions other than the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library.

(5) The Materials may be placed on the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library·s eb site.

m/;~r; Dated

a~~ c;/sftt-Dated

Director for Presidential Libraries

Earl Graves- RFK #6

Table of Contents

Page Topic

320, 325, 330, 333, 341a Bedford-Stuyvesant project and Graves’ involvement

320, 329, 341, 343 Bedford-Stuyvesant project and Robert F. Kennedy’s

[RFK] involvement

337 Bedford-Stuyvesant project, legal matters and law firms

341, 347 Tom Johnston as the spokesman for the project

341a, 344 Bedford-Stuyvesant project and Ed Logue’s involvement

347, 353, 359 Racism, segregation, and need for integration of project

members

350, 355, 357, 360 Bedford-Stuyvesant project and John Doar’s

involvement

355 Bedford-Stuyvesant project, incorporating two

corporations

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7 May 1970

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John F. Kennedy Oral History Project

Earl Graves, RFK #6, May 7, 1970

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(A) Closed by applicable Executive Order governing access to national security information.

(B) Closed by statute or by the agency which originated the document.

(C) Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in the donor's deed of gift.

NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION

-strth Oral History Interview

with

EARL GRAVES

New York/2.~:!_~)\IJev....:> Yoe Y..

May 7, 1970

by

Roberta Greene

For the Robert F . Kennedy Oral History Program

of the Kennedy Library

how GREENE : Why don ' t you begin by explaining/your own involve-

ment in the Bedford- S~y~vesant .project got going?

GRAVES: Well, to really identi fy my own involvement in the

Bedford- Sifi~uvesant project, -I thin.le i t 1s necessary

that you mus t understand,/i really got involved

in the Bedford-St&"l)lves ant project before the Bed­

ford-S~&;ivesant project became a reality as such,

bef'ore I started working f ull- t ime for Senator C\<o\o;.,..,.l; ~:-. ~

Kennedy ./t The firs t visit that Senator Kennedy made

to Bedford- Sif.9''9;vesant.where he was officially I

taking a look at Bedford-StyJJ.-Vesant in consideration

of doing something as far as assisting the area was I

- 321 -

was \....~ i'<"'°' <!:\ ~ ' '" v \ <t' ,,, ~.~ concerned) / 16n February 6) 1966 !I ~"t=m-a;y~a.v:-.e-liTe,en .A Qr

±-rt Bedfo~d- Stf~vesant. I organized the persons who

were going to be out there with him that day,, the

regional head of the FHA (Federal Housing Authority]

and the regional head of HUD l]rousing and Urban

Development).Jl an~ I 1 m not sure,, come to thi nk ): of -+ho\·-

i t) -±--'tfi4.':l"l.¥t the legislation for HUD to become an

entity had1 in fact

1 taken place

6Q . .r,-~=t~ It seems

to me that there was a representative from HUDJ _ _,;

t}-us-tr-b-e-c-a~~-i-ts·"'-n0w·-HlID so it must have become

< a ~ abinet level office by that time. 'Btt't t~ere

were various city rep res entati ves arid various head:S

of housing agencies and so fortho Now1

I should say

that (Thomas M.) Tom Johnston really compiled that "";-) ,_.

p..,;:"'< list of getting those people~ ·0~ getting them all

o v- c \" e S -~·-.- "' -\: ,· -. c, ~··\.--- c -rr---.

there; a--M=zt-Ta-:i:gfi·~; getting them all to the right

cars ; 'affi.~ the protocol of who was to ride ~ with the I

Senator for a short while i &~ who was to get out

of the car ban.d who else could get injfi~ that type ,,,.~""'·, ( ... ~ ~

of,, I was responsible for,, including focu~·"o")n the A ~t;:> "\···y.. C-. ~t

comrnuni ty leaders who were there.,~-G-:r::-t--ef- the Senator ' \ '- \ (\ .. ,-,~;.c.,..,c:\ '""-- \.!:> \..., - I

" -s-p·efl-t time with them and was with them to the greatest

amount of time during that day) being assured that

- 322 -

Judge {j'homas RJ Jones / who was gdng to be there1

and t he other elected officials who ~vere there/

had an opportunity t o express t h ei r v i ews i n terms

of Bedf ord- St§vrves ant .Cf' Again_, I was doing this / at

that point, a s an associate in the office_, not

really~~ person who was wor king full - time on the I\

staff. I didn' t start on the staff till September

19 ., 1966, but it was pretty much after t he fac t 1

i n terms of whether or not I was going to be on

the staff. ·by April or May of that year; we kr1ew I --was going t o start f ull- time.

The first meeting, or the Senator ' s fir s t visit

through Bedford- Si/Y&~esant, I don ' t think ~had

any particular i mpact on h im other than the fact

that it appeared to be an area where there was -+o 1,-.. : I fY"-- I

blight. But i t didn 't look ·any more blighted pr o-"

bably1 than _, I guess .. a Washington; D.C 'J ghetto would, o.·r.'-\

or~ ghetto~ _to use the phr ase that some of our

old friends :Se ~ "Once you 1 ve seen one ghett o , j

you 1ve seen them all011 a:a<'r think that he had the

fee l i ng t hat_, in terms of the blighted areas_, trh-a,.'@--

i t was bad and s omething should be done. I think

the thing that i mpressed him mos t wa~~ as it di d '----···

GREENE :

GRAVES :

- 323 -

I .M. Pei when he was f i nally able to get I.!M . Pei

to come on board, was the fact that the blighted

areas were very1very bad1but the areas that were

good showed a r eal s ense of being able to be

t urned around . It was obvious that there wer e

blocks and many many streets where the hous ing I

was in excellent condit i on; at least on the surface

they were in J

The fascade . '-....;

The fa~ade . ·...::_,,I

excellent condition .

The interior of the houses in many

cases had not1

obvious1Yr been touched 1which in some

ways is an advantage because today s ome of those

same houses over on the East Sixties cost 175 ,

200 -..ft~e' thousand dollars, to have these same

amenities t hat are in those houses, !hey call it V\ '" -

charm/ ·en.~ the East Sixties1and in Bedford- Siff!J'vesant_,r

they call it an old- fashioned house or a house that

needs r emodeling .ctbwe went on a tour that t ook

approximately three hours, four hours1

and then we

came back to our original start ing point1which was

the YMCA [Young Men ' s Christian Association) on Bed­

ford Avenue ~that ' s when I would gues s you ' d say •

\

- 324 -

that the Senator had his feet put in the fire some-

what 1because the various com.munity leaders were

there and proceeded to go through ~~ what I call L' -\• .. t) ~e oneupsmanship and start off with~ I think~

7 Brooklyn Elsie Richardson and the Central . .,.,i Coordinating

Council) who turned out ultimately not to be one of

our real friends in terms of her attitudes toward

the Senator a.nd towards our office/ ~u...t.-s~@- • ·

started off by saying ~,, which is true and I ..... __ . caJ1 sympathize with that to a certa.in extent,, t hat

she didn 1 t want to be studied an~jore,, that if ;in

factJ the Senator had come out to take a look at

the area and to study the area,, that :was not ,......__,

satisfactory~ That dialogue was picked up ancl

carried on for the next hour and forty - five minutes

by the various persons who stood up . Sooner or

later I guess they got to Judge Jones and J udge l

Jones made a most emotional plea. '9,9.g,a,u.ss; Judge

Jones 1at that time ,said lle had not been considerecl

£Dr being on any board or being in charge of any-

thing or serving with us in terms of trying to

turn the community around . Judge Jones is known

for making his passionate statements1 but he outdid

- 325 -

/

himself that day in terms of talking about or in

terms of focusing on11white people i~-qi!.Er&e~ comi ng

C. •t -1 ,.._,_.;:\ \.... ~ ,.. r t • :" into Bedford- StJWy\resant> looking at us

1 ..... · • /\ I ..;> .,, :~, d

~ -l;"r--~\ I I• going away.-a.B:El'. .§_on 1 t do"with us anYfore . ~I would

say the Senator was in good spirits1if one can be

in good spirits while he 's having his feet roasted ..<"'

like this~..:etit ge handled the day as well as he could_;

considering the circumstances . C\\ I left early that

day~ I was ther~ but after about the firs t hour

and a half> I knew that I wasn ' t going to hear

anything new,.~ it was obviou.~-T~~..,~~ J ohns ton, who ~ A ,

had arrived by that time , ~ could certainly stay I

on top of anything that was going to happen that ~ \ l ,,

day.ai:l,tl when I say happen> I mean .,..... there was nothing "

that was going to be new 0 &~_!;here was going to be

no outpouring of emotions that would become negative

in terms of the Senator not being able to deal with

it. I went on back to my office at that time. In

leaving) I mentioned to the Senator I was leaving ~

he said that it was hi s intention to do something and -.,.. he hoped that I would work along with his office >

recognizing at that point that I was still an as so-

- 326 -

meaning ciate in the office _, · ·,',: 1 ~ a volunteer

1 really . He

asked would I be in touch with h i m and try to work

along . I don2t remember the exac t tim~abl~ but

it would seem to me t hat; knowing Tom Johns ton and

how aggr essive he was_, it wasn ' t much more than

probably t wo or three days)~ if it was t hat

long _, after we had our tour out there that he asked

me would I meet and help him in putting together

a group of people who s hould probably start a,p:d

have·. ~ s ome discussion about what could be done .

The Senator did want to do something ; :&oo"\ we

s hould s tar t focus i ng on where we could go and

what we could do in Bedford- S~y~vesant.

GREENE : At this point _, was it definitely decided that Bed­

ford- si$01~esant would be the area and it wouldn ' t . ~ ~ill Q,

be extended , l et's say_, in ~~FmS'""'e~ Ocean~~

Brownsville or anything like that?

GRAVES : Oh no~ _at this point, you should understa_nd that

the initial meetings that we hadc • • ,I mean , we

started off1in terms of what could be done1bY:.­

&ta~~~g-~by having dis cus s ions of maybe trying

to get twenty thousand dollars as initial seed

- 327 -

money/ jus t to kind of loolc ar ound 1and maybe having a

·('\~ little offi ce and stari to focus on doing something .

~di I mean Bedford- St-uyves ant in its elf "i'S' not even. . . .

) ' . / I \.l.J ~ 1J.H~:i ·-e t,_c- •''°'"") +a d b . ~

I mean on e of the ultimate things that -B:e-a~~er was I

just to define1in fact

1 what we were going to consider

0 Bedford ,...Stuyvesant geographical ly. 11 There wasn ' t

then, and there still is not now, a geogr aphic

consideration that is1in fact, identi fied as Bed­

ford- Stuyvesant. The Department of Hospitals in

New York has one thing.that they call Bedford-

-Si:UFvesant~ the Welfare Department.or the Social ,y '2J ::. 1\

Services Department, excuse me ;-of our city now ./\

has another thing that they consider Bedford- Sto:y:-.ve­

s an t r,· the Centra1:J3,f0~f:.1¥:Hw Model Ci t i es have ~ ~ (

s omething else which they consider Bedford- Stuy.ve-;' ' • , - \......_ ( , v · 1.~c.·v o.. \ ·•' t .1 \ ..._ !

s ant. ii1-R~ _!'.he Bedford- Stuyvesant !'es toratl~n ~rogram > /\

which is the program we ' re talking about1

whi ch then

was not identified> had somethi ng they considered

Bedford-Stuyvesant~ c;:.nd Youth in Action which is the

something which they consider Bedford- Stuyvesant .

So lI mean 1right there you have five or six agencies

- 328 -

alone that cannot agree on what in fact is Bedford-/ J

Stuyvesant. Cflso1

when we started defi ning it in the

very beginning/I woul d think t hat we were just

talking about an area that maybe was bounded on

th~touth by East~rn Parkway , on th~rth by

Broadway and F.lus"ing Avenue, .an1! jest by Washing­

ton Avenue) and on the/ast, as I said , by what ·

would be Flu~ng running into Broadway, ih fact,

that muc h ar eao But when there's this much talk

about that much area, you 're sti ll talking about

three to four hundred thousand people) and you ' re

talking about 1physically, I guess , -aee;; three

or :i. four thousand ac res or six hundred and twenty-

s ix s quare blocks, just within that f r amewor k of

that particul ar area which ultimately did end up

being the area ge~g~aphically for our project,

~hat ended up being the area we all agreed on/and

it was als o the area that ultimately1 when we did

final l y get way , way down the pa th in terms of

who was involved in the proj ect in t he various

planning agencies and so forth, th-a;;~ we agreed

upon., I mean we came together with the City Planning ,

- 329 -

Commiss6on . We came together with the various

housing authorities i n New York and the various

planners who worked with us1

and we did agree on c:G1

that being an areao g.~ j;p terms of it ever ex-

tending over into Brownsville and so forth> we

should understand that the initial group that came

together to meet with the Senator f i rst at the then >

1 YMCA t hat day 1and/secondly ,at subsequent meetings

after that, had their own thing. They really en-

visaged - this being a thing where they were talking

about Bedfor d-Stuyvesant and almost Bedford- Stuy-1 · ' !~

vesant to the point of my blocking what are you .'. -·· ~ ,.·-'

going to do for the sidewalk out in front of my

h I l' t t . 1 di' d t t ~ ouse . mean, cer ain y no ex en 1\ over

into a Brownsville or a Bushwick, all of which are

areas which are con t i guous with Bedford- Stuyvesant

and all of which have simil ar problems.

' GREENE : Of cour se, I meant not so much the comrnuni tys inter-""'. -,~

ests 1which is sort of obvious; they wanted~for them-

selves~-b~ I meant, was the Senator definitely

decided at this point on Bedford- Stuyvesan t? ~00 ,

GRAVES : W~'"i,., we recognized that if any area probably stood f -;:..

a chance of doing something, it was probably Bedford-~

- 330 -

Stuyvesant1as opposed to a Brownsville

1because

Br owns ville was much more blighted . The .political

realities of what he was t r y i ng to do did indicate

that if he was going to attempt to go into a

ghetto area, an area ~n~u~~ that was iden­

tified as ghetto, ~Ra.~probably1 looking at the

cohesiveness, if in fact there is. any, of the /

community leaders)allai looking at the demographics

of the area in terms of the economics and the ,,

income of the area and the l i ke, -aB:Gl.-.t ,ben ..... ag.aid

looking at the educational structure1 and looking 1:...-"

at where you had a real identity thing / of people Crc,,~

saying , 11 I 1 m f--0r- Bedford- Stuyvesant; I 1ve lived

there all my l ife, rr 'aIT~ Bedford-Stuyvesant

offered the chance of being able to make ito 9'- It 1 s ~ • Cv< .. 'I 0 \°=> 0.. '< -\" "

the same thing~that- I'm sure that~p~~i,.v:a.:&el.y we 111

never be able to justify I\ aREl.~th-a-t---~s1.... the thing

of restoring middle- class blockso I mean the

exterior renovation program which is part o:f the /

Bedford-Stuyvesant project right now; 1What they

are in fac t doing is restoring houses of middle~

class f amil ies. They are restoring t he houses of

persons who maybe have good jobs in t he / ost pf f ice

- 331 -

i J I or have good jobs in the Police :E.lepartment or Bire

I t / Jepartment or restoring blocks of residents who have

(

lived in that area a long time) have their houses

on jelfareo

in Bedf ord-:f.

paid for for the most part1

and are not

A person who .owns a house a brownstoRe ruv-.b

Stuyvesant~- has lived. there fifteen or twenty years . I\ Cl

I 11 . is probably not onJelfare. The blocks that we

I

went and did first were blocks t:rat stood a chance

of really being turned around and being' blocks that \ \

you could visually look at and say look at what we , I ) ::::

f I ' 11 dido Well) when you sa~ ~ook at what we did) you

really do have to take a look at what we did) because

what we did was we went out and picked blocks that

were not that bad to begin with and restored thoseo

And you have to understand the political reali ties ,-~that

of life/\says<Jou have to have some success1other-

wise people are going to feel that you 're not going

forwardo so1

I 1m not indicting what we did) I'm just , .,. • • • Dv"'"' ~-'(.., Q

saying that in even picking'\ 17~ ·GB:es·-t-B:a-.t- we had ; p i cked/-

the area ) then we had t o start picking blocks and Cfr )

projects where we could do the mosto Its the same I\

thing that we decided that we would l eaverrather

than demoldish,what is in fact go ing to be the corporate I

- 332 -

headquarters for those two corporations out there . \- 0 ....

Rather than demolishing the Sheffield -Ea-Pnes, 't-hgj?.>-

C<. ,· ... ·: you leave Sheffield-B-a:rrres up and refurbish it because

i t gives a sense of change and of improvement

rather t han just t earing down and bui lding up new .

As it stands today , I ' m sure that 1 :: building is

probably going to be well in exc ess of five mi llion

doll arsPJfrFe physical development of it, forgetting

about furnishi ngs and the like . It would have been all

much cheaper to tear that thi ng down and start I\

from sc r atch 1rather than going in ! Ci;\

that thing. .J-.meanl~here 1 s a lo;

there and gutting

t o be said for

the way they 1 ve done it because q\ they ' ve been able

to trai n young construction workers in various

trades trat they would never have had an opportunity; ,, they 1 ve been able to work out various agreements:

with unions in letting us have t hose t rainees there

who obviously are not members of the union~ it was

a matter of our finding out by dealing with the

union leaders across t ·he- Sceat , e*eus-e-m:e-,-ae-r0s-s-L~

the city, like Harry Van Arsdale and Peter Brennan1

t hat t hey really were not interested i n doing refur-

- 333 -

bishing and

rebuilding.

work that had to do with old construction ,

-.!I'-A£ _ihey were looking for the World ,- t:le bu l \-\.

Trade Centers of New York City to :p.e."Q.u-3:-1-d and United

/ Nations Plazas to be built and really could care I

l ess about something like redoing or refurbishing

e-T-:r>·eEl.-e-::bon~ the fatcade of a building like the Shef-0

\ ('\, ··1 •

field Barnes. So1it was a real educational exper­

ience. <1\I thinlc that my initial involvement in the

Bedford- Stuyvesant project was important to the

office for a twofold reason or threefold reason.

First of all I had lived in Bedford- Stuyvesant all I

my life ,so right off the bat in terms of what was ~ ) I

going to happen, you had a person who knew the

various community leaders . What I say now may

sound somewhat immodest but these are just state-!

ments of fact,~ I had lived there all .my l ife,

knew the people in that community in terms of how 0

each person ldnd of fit"-~i11___to their particular t , r V'\ e.. ~in the whole puzzle of what in fact was

Bedford- St.uyvesant, politically and sociologically

and otherwise. You had a person who has a wife who

was teaching in Bedford-Stuyvesant; I knew something

about the educational system in Bedford-Stuyvesant~

- 334 -

you had a pers on who had worked as a Federal narcotics --/ ag ent i n ar res t ing people in Bedford- Stuyvesant,

under standing t he problem of narcoti cs in Bedford-1-

St uyves ant 0 you had a person who then was working

in Bedfond- Stuyvesant and had worked for ten years

in ;:{ea1;istate in Bedford- Stuyves ant , mortgage

financing, refurbishing of their houses, sell ing

hom es to persons who were going to move into the '-J

area.-aaii~nowing the atti tudes of the people who .- /' SO..'\

were moving inJ~ I could s omething to you ;i

intelligently regarding the demographics of what

it was all about or the people who were interested

in staying in Bedford- Stuyvesa_nt . And then, in

addition, you had a person who was living there

r i ght then at that time , himsel f, and who had a

house that we could start off Jby meeting at . We -...__.

needed a place to start off from; we wanted to pick

a neutral placeo

In terms of my initial involvement, it was a --·-~-- ~

matter~ To~.-~?hns_to~-~_L~hich is always

very necessary in these kinds of -;;;;-jec~d the

Senator needed to know there was someone who they

could turn to and get an honest answer firom in

- 335 -

11 r terms of should we invite this person to the meeting J ":: I

or should we invite the other person~an~ who s hould

be chairman of the

we're going to put

--¥oard of the new corporation I

together'? bow should we form

the new corporation?,how

y.o.u~ what probl:ms -::::...

7 should it be done.,.~ <an.Q-,-c_

I do you envisage having. and

if there are going to be problems, how can we get \ f I I

around some of them and how can ·we move forward. }

The initial meetings we had included1for the

most part1

a very matriarch group" This was , I

felt , somewhat of a disaster. You had Els i e ?

Richardson, you had Louise Bouling.and you had a I

group of women who really considered this project

almost like their thing~ I mean , they: . envi saged

it as something that was going to belong to them.

They were going to name who the executive director

was going to be; if there was ever goi n g t~e an

executive director~ ~hey were going to name what

work was going to be donec ihey envisaged it as ~

being a thing that was go ing to be their own. They

really, at the time that we started up, did not of

conceive of it ever being/the magnitude that it '1.:

is today. As ,,,ft look on it in terms cf that project

- 336 -

surviving today and not having any of the blow'tlps '-

that we did have that many other poverj~rograrns have had

across the country .. ,

{interruption]

C~ The point I was making is that you didn ' t have

any problems with the corruption that has taken

place in many of the poverty programs across the

country in terms of people absconding wi th t he

funds' putting furniture __ in their own houses instead

of the furniture go ing into offices . You did ulti­which

mately have a problem, I wasn 1 t even aware of~a~~

----:-:------ r was vey surprised that they l ost probably

" a good fifty IBM (International Busines s Machines]

electric typewriters which would go into thous ands w• t\ 0\.1.,)

of dollars wh~h-they "8.,.1"el-:fl'0·i:r have a thing where t hey I\ "'

bol te·t the typ ewriters down t o t he desk which I was

not even aware of;;hich will happen anyflace. I I

mean, it~not just a matter of it happens t o be a

:i.1aek I

there

community~ any~lace where people are poor and -;. I

I

is an opportunity to do better, they 1 re going

to take advantage of it, if in fact stealing is

- 337 -

do i ng better 1as they might rationalize it i s.

GREENE : As I unders tand it, when you started out in your Q.._ 'l'\.6

association with the Senator ' s office with the , A

project, you were working with this fel l ow ~~&R~.

""F-.:t:=~~ at the Central Brooklyn Coordinating Council, , (, ~-k"'"' "' j 1] f°v- ie<i.. r.-..0 ·,, /

·s-i;-ev,e-F~i;:..:k-eQ."3.._..F-r..e eQ.man..,. that that was your or i-"

ginal contact? Is that so?

GRAVES; No, he was a lawyef~ No , no, no, no, no, no,

7

let me just focus on his name---¥r~Ron Schiffman

was the guy that we

Steve Friedman is a

who was a young lawyer., ~e was an associat e inter­

es ted in doing some work in the Senate office. :Am]:-)--

he was out_ there the first day with the Senator. --::::

Cf\ Hi s dealings really were to look at legally what

would be involved in setting up a corporation , i f

in f act we were going to set one up. I don't even

remember if he came to the first couple of community

meetings because his role was really to f ocus on

legally what we wer e all about and getting involved

in that part. I don 1 t mean to play down his role

at all , it 1 s just that once we got past the thing of

- 338 -

legally where we were going in the very beginning• ·- 6

I\ and the other consideration you should understand

is that ultimately1once we put the business board -€.. together and we had gott~ them together , it was

rather a touch and go ~ I thought it was rather •

unfortunate for him1but it was decided not to use

his law firm 1which is in itself a prestigious law -J.-,..,

firm,-aa:r~ the politics of the whole thing, he was

dumped and his law firm was dumped in terms of

that being the law firm that would represent r_·L.11 '~;·:-\h("'\\~····''-'.\ 1~r""\ :;i.-..- t.', ~ .... , .. ~,.;:r · '":

D & S ~ the law firm /\ ~

that was picked was Cravath,

Swaine a.i€1 Moore and /

t he reason it was picked is

because someone had decided that Roswell Gil patric

should be on the ~oard_a~ ~f Roswell Gilpatric ! -;

was going to be on the Board, then the businessmen in&o_ I S-

who were there, mean/Ufilliam) Paley and the rest /\

I \\ of them, looked and said, !'.[ell, why don 1 t we use

, , his law firm? <I\ Steve Friedman l who had done one hell

of a fine job in terms of getting this thing off ...l,--·

01.J I

the ground.was literally jus t put to pasture . One· j A

" day he was called in and told_," 3'.!e 1 re not going to ,,,.

/I use your law firm) and that was the end of it. And

ht law firm had really lent Steve Friedman to the

- 339 -

corporation free for a very long period of time .

He had done, I thought, a magnificent job of

handling the various problems that came up ~ 9e

was, I thought , superb . It was mos t unfortunate .

GREENE : Had t here been objections to this7 ~as there any-

body who didn ' t want to do it that way?

GRAVES: Yeah, Carter Burden was very vocal . I should say

that I personally_, not being a lawyer, number one ,

and not being that aware of hres tigious law

firms, when you s tart talking about Cravath _, Swaine

& Moore as opposed to Debevoisehl i mpton . · · 'r much J

more kne·w individuals in law firms who were con-

sidered outstanding indivi duals as lawyers in a

city more so than law firms . But I remember Carter

Burden taki ng up the gauntlet for Steve1.a~ then <v

appraising me of what was taking place) and the two \!J

of us go ing in and vocalizing to Tom Johnston that

we thought it was outrageous.arr~ Tom Johnston just

said to us that that ' s t he political realities of

life1in terms of the fact that it was not going to

'-· \t w ,,_~ • ...; t- D.... be his law firm . · It S.-1~R~Lt even matter that he

was from some second-rate law f;rmj Debevoise~ I

Plimpton is certainly a prestigious firm . It was

- 340 -

just a matter that Cravath, Swaine 4i- Moore was

going to get the work. The other side of the

coin was that it wasn' t a matter that Cravath,

Swaine & Moore was going to do volunteer workd

_that wasn 1 t it at all.i, Cravath, Swaine & Moore was

paid very handsomel y out of the resources, the

funds of Bedford-S t uyvesant 1in or~er to put I

together the legal entity of the whole two corpor-

ations and t o make it happen and to become a

reality. So1 I thought that Steve Friedman1

who

s till is a good friend in terms of seeing him

from time to time , kind of wasn ' t treated very

fairly or his firm. I

GREENE: Did he disassociate hi mself from the project after

that?

GRAVES : No, he didn ' t~ As a matter of fact, he said that

he was a sincere individual fl

because his company said go I -.::.

'f\O"'(' and that he was'\ there

ll

on out and do it~ ..£le

was there because he wanted to be there .. e·e·e-a:tl:S~

~hey could have just assigned another lawyer. And

he still very much was willing to contribute

his time, wanted to know what was going on .ar.i~ it .:i \. y., ·,rl"'\ • -=-

just spoke that much more highly in terms of I\ .

GREENE :

GRAVES :

GREENE:

GRAVES:

- 341 -

the kind of individual he wasd&eG-au&~be did not just \\

say , okay _, fine,, you 1 re not going to use my law - -

t i 11 firm, I qui t . He said, whatever I can do to hel p . • .

1

and he spent t ime working with the l awyers who

eventually took his place f r om Cravath _, Swaine &

Moore to be sure that the transition t hat took

place was a s mooth one .

Did Robert Kennedy get involved in t his at all?

Yes, there was defini tely ~scussion between

Tom Johns ton and the Senator and mys elf and Carter .

And he went along with the ? 1'

; "" Right. Well, you should unders tand that something ,, l i ke that; where it was important _, Tom Johns ton had

enough influence with the Senator that if he

figured out in his mind that this was the way / ~'\"'\E:. v.J (;.L' \ . <""'

it shoull be1a:Y:Ya that ' s 11/fhy it s hould be$ i5-fta-t;.i

_be would have built a str ong enough case that when ~

he presented it to t he Senator_, it was a f§il

accompl i . That 's the way it was g> ing to go . \...,s

,,

GREENE : Anyway, after this meeting, did you have any

follow- up s essions, either with Tom Johnston or

by yourself with t he community l eaders? I

GRAVES: Oh1that ' s what I 1 m saying., ·we got right i nto

meetings right after that f:rst meeting •• ~ GREENE : Yeah, what kind of reaction did they have to him

personally, for one thing?

GRAVES: To Tom Johnston?

GREENE: No, I mean to Robert Kennedy.

GRAVES: Oh, Kennedy came to very f ew meetings. As a

matter of fact, once we decided to get going and

really get the thing off the ground, the real /

meetings that ·were held ,hJere not held with the I

I

- 34io...-

commlLnity) Jhey were held with tryi ng to get H~ v.JbL•_\c\

businessmen who agreed to do it ,.'""Bflel--lri-s spendin§v(.__,

three or four days coming up1in the course of the

week go i ng to a meeting with a BeYLno Schmidtl-~ne day and a Bill Paley the next day and getting [Edward

J .1 Ed Logue in a meeting w·i th him and Ed Logue

being taken around Bedford- Stuyvesant oqr One of

the roles that I had ·~;;~:·:;;;;;·· that rr used to

call myself the tour leader, w-a:s-ti.Ta.( particularly

with Ed Logue i.'ll I would spent two or three weeks

with Ed Logue going around Bedford-Stuyvesant , ,__,

geographicall~ seeing the area and physically walking

- 342 -

t he area~o~ook at housing and discuss mortgage

I o"'-? r/, financing) fne of the phenomen~which the !Leal

J'state men today in Bedford- Stuyvesant still don ' t

even realiz~how it ended up that you can get

FHA (-F-e-'6.·e'ra"".l~~ows'i11-g"""'Au.i;J:i.@.:r"~~y~ mortgages in Bed-

ford- Stuyvesant -~;,as that Ed Logue and I had a

discussion one day about FHA f inancing and I told

him there was none in Bedford-Stuyvesant. He

said, well, that was impossible.~ _!here was

never FHA financing in Bedford- Stuyvesant because

in Bedford- Stuyvesant~ost . of the houses are

brownstone or frame type buildings which are

0-c\ joined on both sides by other houses1which means

that in the interior center part of the houseY

there is a room that is not going to have windowso /

The FHA had a law on the books at that time; it - ,, was a national law-that said{if you had a house

/\ that had interior rooms, rooms without windows,

you could not get FHA financing. So1 here was a

community with four hundred thousand people sitting

there in the middle of Brooklyn, not able to get

FHA. f inancing and yet being very1very poor .CfOEd

Logue and I focused on the thing~ we went and ·raised

- 343 -

it with the Senator and he and Senator (Jacob K.J Javits got that law changed. ~eaa~ there 's as

~

much corruption going on in FHA financing as

there was corruption going on in the second mart-

gage financ ing that took place in Bedford- Stuyvesan~

but today1 at leas t , people can get FHA financing in

Bedford- Stuyvesant.c~ So my involvement was to meet . I

with people like Logue" ~Y invol vement was going

around, spending a heck of a lot of t i me with I)M.

Pei 1 s offi ce1which is a ver y exciting thing for

o.~

me. They ' r e terribly bright people "that firm1 and

ears in terms

- l.. who don ' t have a..ny fuz~ between t he

j I of Black-White~ they 1 re not inter-

/ I ~

they're guys

ested in that kind of thing; that 1 s not their con~

cern. They 1 re very liberal~ was just impressed •

I

with the whole I.M. Pei operationo He was certainly

the ~iff any of the people who were involved in

the project in terms of when you had a meeting and· , l <... \0\\e~\

I .. M. Pei and his staff came to the meeting -a.na you . "\

had other planners, you always had the feeling that

maybe the other guys were looking to make a quick I

buck and run; ;i"ut I .\M. Pe i was in this becaus e he

- 344 -

was committed to it. I a.lways thought the ass o­thing

ciation of his being involved in thef 1~ent great

credi b ility to where we were going in . t his entire

project .

GREENE: Wb&&-d-rd--i-t- (just to get back to Ed Logue before .-:;.:::.

GRAVES:

I

I forget about it~when did it become clear to J that

you that he was not wor king out and/s omethi ng should

be done to get rid of him~a..~~ho did you dis cuss

it with? . /./

I don 1 t remember the exact tim~1 ~able. Let 1 s see> ........ __ .....

if we started in 1966 .. \.l+ !ell, somewhere between ,. -

1--' the peri od of the firs t meeting in February/ 1966,

rnQ,...J).e-e.em1:l·e'.t7~ ..... tg~ and the early par.t of 1967)

because Ed Logue ran for mayor of Boston in a

primary in the early part o f the s pring of 1967.

So/ that would mean that Ed Logue had been asked

or~ to find something else to do by the Senator, '-

I shou.ld say}by Tom J ohns ton for t he Senator

because Tom Johnston ·vrns the one that put it on

the line to him. 6\. we had the announcement of the

pro ject in December of 1966 at a very well publicized

and we11 put together meeting where you had someone

- 345 -

from (Nelson A .J Rockefeller 1 s office, both Senators,

and the mayor.~ the people in the c ommunity s aid

when they looked a; i~~~~;;e:~t being a I\

II

joke in the community, that whenever you get that

many white people agreeing o;; the same thing/on

the same pl atform, tna{ somebody ' s going to steal !I

from the f-ack people/ which was kind of a humorous

statement1but at the time it was no smal l thing

to put all t hose people on the s ame platform,

agreeing on the same thingoCf\That means that

between ~m-$.E$.r-a:r:i€l-AJ?-~ December of 1966 and

April of 1967, Ed Logue made' himself rather unde-

sirable in many ways1in terms of his commi~ent

to what he was about. It was always a mat t er that

Ed Logue was so busy in terms of »his involvement"

and commitment to this projecto ~By that time, Tom

Johnston_, who I must s ay and give f ull credit to,

was really the catalys t in the thingo Tom J ohnston s

ha~ limitless energies when it comes to doing

things . I don't always agree with the way he

does it and in many cases I thought he could have I

been much fairer to both myself and Carter in terms

of the way he would arrange things and his own in-

- 346 -

volvement in terms of how he came out i n the project

as opposed to how we came out in terms of who got

the credit for doing the work. But i f v

nothing else/you can say/ he had l imitless energies

in terms of really wanting to see the thing go1

-ar±-Ef focusing on this thing / and recognizing that

it could be a good thing fo r the Senator . I think

it was his energies and his drive that really caught

us up in the thing , that really wanted to make it

go . Cf\ I thi nk 1£a1so ea-use-~°b'eeat?S'B- the project

became such an overpowering thing within the Senate

office.~ ·.· __ _ it started off as

a project and ended up becoming a mons ter in terms

of the Kennedy office.13-ee-&~~Adam Walins ky was

not involved in the project at all in the beginning. -lhe "1 arrd all of a sudde?t it became apparent to Adam

1and

lJ?,. \_d e \,•r,a_ ,, ]

1 to Peter~too, that this Bedford- Stuyvesant project was1 I something ·

/that .we better get i nvolved in, otherwis e we're /I

going to get left out, because Tom Johnston was ;+

taking all the credit for. We ·l ooked up and Adam I\

was coming into town and he'd want to get involved

in it.~ Peter would come in to town and he 1 d want

to get involved in it.-an=ajt was a thing that became /

- 347 -

the a monster in the Kennedy officeo I mean/Bedfordi

Stuyvesant proj ect literally became, you kno~~qyand // ~

t h en you had t he charisma of the Kennedy name bei ng

involved in a project that had to do with a ghetto

area~~ after it was announced in December, there

was just no end to the reporters coming in and out,

"a:R( then Tom Johnston set a rule that he would be

the only one to deal with reporters.which did not I

w'Ao make eithe r mys elf or Carter, ~Fe'! were both involved

very much in the project , particularl y happy at

that point o c_.; J

GREENE : What was the reasoning behind that1 'I'hat it was ) I

too confus ing to have more than one person?

GRAVES : No, I just think ~ ... ~ell , if you want to be

realb::. candi d about it , Car ter and I were con­

vin~ed that it was probably Tom 1 s desire to appear

to be the spokes man for this project. The way to

be the spokes man for the project was to be the

only one talking to anyone about it and then you

become the expert on it. I was annoyed about it,

to a certain extent becaus e~ith the experience I I

been in jeal pstate and all the other of my having

things that I described before, in terms of input

- 348 -

that I could have made to the project, ~ha~ I --looked up and more and more it was not that I A

wasn ' t called; it was a matter that they were

going out and trying to find white experts to

Bedford- Stuy­~~

Dick -B:-l·erom; he

decide what was going to happen in I.A.)

vesant . For instance, (Richard)

"' and his Citizens' Crusade Against Poverty was

called i n. He focused on this thing because it

was a thing that Kennedy was going to be involved <

iJ) ,a:B:d they brought him in. I saw him being a

bit of ; disaster.Br&~ final ly it was turned '% 0 !'.'.>V'IJZ.

around and Dick ~~"'e"em was eliminated from the -1 l,~er\"'-L~·

project) fut for a while there, Dick Bl-oom was

the instant expert in terms of all that could

happen in the f ack community.~ ge was just an

ex-jolice ~ptain who had come out of Chicago) as

far as I was concerned 1and didn 1 t have any great ~ n

knowledge of ~· Bedford- Stuyvesant. "-iv It used to

annoy~e that every time s ome irstant expert like

this came into the office who was going to be

able to radicall y help move the project forward/

I would have to sit do~m and spend two hours

briefing him and having him pick my brain of all

- 349 -

I knew about Bedford-Stuyvesant and then having

him ask me about things which I thought were lJ.e was literally

utterly ridiculous\!l/naming persons who might have

been involved in projects who were dead~ That 1 s

how little knowledge they had of what was going

on in the community) and yet they were being called

41-on to be the white experts. 11 The whole theory_, whi ch

is really another discussion we're going to have to

have, is the thing of how you ended up with two

boards in Bedford- Stuyvesant. Under any other

given circumstances; ·~ere it not for Bobby Ken­

nedy, this thing woul d have been viewed as being ~

a racist, pla.ntation sys tern) of that white board

being the /

overseers and the ;8l ack board being the

s l aves. It literall y is ._tb.e-,tll-i.r:ig._._G±'-i~t-la·e±n.gTl..-

because it was Robert Kennedy and because ultimately

of the unfortunate, disastrous thing of the Senator ' s o.-:,$ , / q,

assination ,/ that there has never been any fla~k . ~ . v

But today to be able to justify having two executive

directors 0f one prograrn · out in Bedford- Stuyvesant

is a very1ver y difficult thing.ct\ The other thing is

that t here is no question in my mind/having dealt

with John Doar as a consultant to that corporation

GREENE :

- 350 -

t oday , that it is a most f r us trating thing for

J ohn Doar, that he knows that he only can do

certai n thi ngs and wor k in certain areas and not <' 'I: ~ re._.., k'. \ · ·. ·· {..:\ , )

b e his own guy ,. b·ee-a:tls-e Frank Thomas is certainly /\. assert

· a s t r ong enough pers onality to I . -~ himself as a

pers on who really is going to run what happens

i n Bedford- Stuyvesant . Cfrl ultimately think that

that project has got to become a thing of having

one corporation out thereo I jus t don 1 t see how

i t1s going to be workable, -~ I do think that

when Jo!Ln Doar eventually- - and I 1 m sure he will - ­..-

-e¥~fitu-a,,1-}:y decides to do something el se where )

he can be his own boss, ~h~u that proj ect wil l

revert to being a thing of having one executive

director. -6-e-1!-ta~ John Doar has been in now for

a couple of years and he and Frank have kind of could

worked along together. There "-e-a:B never be another ,,._

white person ·who could come i n and have the equal ~~)-

status •of John Doar, for whatever it's ·worth, enjoys

now as the co-director . _ _ they came on at about '-•- - ·--<-­

Is that simply because/ we111they didn 1 t really

come at the same time .

GRAVES :

GREENE :

GRAVES :

- 351 -

They didn 1 t come at the same time . John Doar came

on after> but it's because-John Doar came ·with the~ .

Just the fact that you could be able to justify

that Kennedy had gone and found a white perso~,

just the theory or the politics involved.in trying

to be able to rationalize to the press and to

the community tha,t you were going to have a white

guy sitting out there with Fra~"k. Thomas and both

of them are ,going to be executive directors of oe..\-e,,'5 \ \:,\'I

what1s &-B:<J!)-:p:~~e the same proj ect1

was in it-

self a real coup1in terms of how you handled that

press-wise.

But are you saying that it\s something sp,ecial

about Doar 1or because he -~tas .R9-~eE~ -~enpe?-y' s ma.11 >

GREENE :

GRAVES :

John Doar was a g uy ·who ~·~r'.·~:g~~;~-.-gdfu: 't· ' ':' . ~: - ' .· ... -. ··, ·o > . . - .

pas_sion.( and ~~~~-~~-anding_,. he 1vas ... 4 ::.~~§i'.,;~~[h~\L"; _a_i ong':;w_i·jch .. .Ft:~h~:- &119rfi7g.tt

• "

. _: _ _ : . . - .··y.

' . ~·· , . .. -..~ ... . ;•

. /

~·· . -~~.- -..

: .. !. ~ ~·

.:f~ -· ... .:. .,,. ~ ..... .

' (; .... , ' ~ ,.-,, .. '

.. \ :: . ~ I · • •

.... ,:: ..

GREENE :

GRAVES :

- 353 -

that you co't.1id talk about i\ ~ you ended up ~with

an all-Biack staff sitting in the Gr~ada Hotel ! . 1\ _./

in Bedford- Stuyvesant,, a.00 I went out and sought

out the site and made all the arrangements for

renting the hotel and getting all the furniture~

-a...ftf I ·went out an.d bought fift~¥housand dollars

worth of furniture in one night for the projec~

or two nights,, whatever it took.;o ~o have ar1

/ all-Black staff sitting in the center of Bedford- .

I Stuyvesant ·and to have an all-white s taff sitting

on Madison Avenue and both of them focusing on the

same project is absolutely unbelievable and incom-

prehensible to meo

Was this somet0:~r1g that was raised frequently

by the lecal people1or did they accept it?

Oh> listenc !!:.---~first of all it was raised . .. ::: l

by the staff\ ani ~ tffeii"'J t was " r ,afs'ed the local

-::.·. ·-,··

-;

- 354 -

1

He was just 1itotally a disaster

project .S\The first thing that John Doar

for the

did when

he came in was to ::say_, 11Firs t of all w~Pgot to 'l.-

integrate our staff1 and second_, we"g6t to get·

out there to Bedford- Stuyvesant . What are we

doing sitting here on Madison Avenue~ " They were

sitting on Madi son Avenue, trying . to make tfl.~ ~\ ~c.\ $\ 01'\'.S ... ·- - ·- . .. .. : ... . .

.G,..iwt,.i...z-en~;,. .. :w.o,;r.:.Ji--"f 0 r ·~t he·~.s ±aves·;,,.d ~~ffi~;~n ~£ e ci-Dsi!id-: . .. .• •.. . ' . ~· ., . 'I.

GREENE :

GRAVES :

... · • ... I r.' •• . . ~ . ;." '. .. ;· · .·

. : '... t .. · • •

355 -

Let me just ask you one more thing1before we stop 1

about the two corporations. The ·way I 1 ve always

ur1ders toad it, the functions of the two were

separate and it ·was never really supposed to

be e a question of greater and less~r authority

or one being the slave and the other the master.

Was this just a myth?

'I'ha t ·was definitely a myth. To this day , I can I

remember riding on the East Side Drive going ~o I..../'

849 United Nat i ons Plaza with Senator Kennedy/

and his driver in the car, -aT-J..~ sitting in the bacl;;:

and discussing the Bedford- Stuyvesant project

and my saying to h i m) 11Y.ou know, I ul timately

think that this thing about putting together

these two corporations is not going to be a

workable thing. 11 This is when we ·were talking

of John Doar coming on . And I remember t he

GREENE :

the Senator turning to me and sayi ng, "We have

got to have a white executi ve director because

the white businessmen a r e never going to deal

with a Black man running the show out there and f

- 356 -

him being i n charge of all that money . 11 And that

·was no myth.

Do you think this was a reflection of his per-'

s ona l f eel ings or j ust of the real i t i es of the

s ituation?

GRAVES : When tie expounded that, that was Robert Kennedy

speaking in terms of what he believed, which

happens to be a statement of fact . You know,

I 1 m deal i ng with white businessmen today in

terms of saying to them, "I want you to adver-

tis e 0 11 ~d I know the questions t hey ask me as

¥residents of corporations , _ :11Do .::- all ii1ack p:: 9pl e /·- r- ~ hate white people7 11 When these are the heads of

!'C\ major corporations as0 me questions like that in

1970, then I know is-Ra.{ what Robert Kennedy saw.,

.en-ct then you must understand that Robert Kennedy

came with the scars of having been the Attor ney ~ce.\ """..i

General and ·s=ee-R the racism which prevails i n

GREENE :

GRAVES:

GREENE :

GRAVES :

GREENE :

- 357 -

this countr y . h i s

But he wasn' t really expres sing /pers onal feelings;

he was expressing observations of the way other

people would feel . He himself would , you th~nk ,

have accepted afack direc tor1 if he thought it

would have been workable / of a single corporation?

Yes, I think so, yes. I think he would have, right .

But once it got s tarted, di d ·you find that the

two cor porations worked fairly well ?- Let ' s

s peak about after John Doar came on or were I

there problems even af ter that?

No, no , nope . One of the stumbling blocks of

this whole project right now, and1you know, no

one wants to say it, is that these people are at

loggerheads with each other half of the time each

day . I t is definitely unproductive having two

corporations out there . I know for a factlwhen

I talk to theJlack guys who are out there and

I talk to the white guys who /

are out there~ you 1:

Jr~ow, they come to me , I don 1 t have to solicit

their coming in to sit down and talk" ;--Alt.~ i t 1s a

disaster.

Now that you have John Doar and he apparently is

GRAVES :

GREENE:

GRAVES:

- 358 -

someone that is respected and his sentiments aren't

in question, do they still feel a sense of infer-

iority by the two corporation structure7 ll (I

Who~ I 1 m not sure. ~ho is they?

The people within the ;s1 ack community in Bedford- " see2

Stuyvesant~ ~o they still/this as a plantation

S Y_~ tem1 as . you

fyo~k~-;;.~:~ the ··-- ~ _, -~· .. -· .. -:;.

put it? a I Bedford- Stuyvesnt project, youshould A I

understand, for better or for worse, however it

goes, the radio programs and all that, with all

that it ha·s done and with all that it is doing,

~~/still is not as readily identifiable as the

YIA (Youth in Action] which is the CAP tconu:nJ.m.~t-y-<-. wl-.:::.·r,

at Bedford-Stuyvesant ·We"'

the only people who really

know what's going on i as far as the Bedford- Stuy­

vesant project is concerned, are either people ,,..

who work .. within tte corporation;\ that means the ,_,.r

very poor, unemployed, underemployed trainee; or . hC\..,)<";. _ \.'""\o.6.

the middle-class who Wa:f.r'OO€l-=.t,0-J::£.a~1,-:i~ their houses

fixed up , or the people who want to stay up till

twelve o ' clock at night to wacg:ithe radio program

of 11 Inside Be4ord-Stuyvesanto 11 Other than that , '\

·'-i !'.) 'L~ .....

'

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the masses of the people don 1 t really recognize

much of a difference between YIA, Bedford- Stuy-

vesant, Model Cities~ it 's all the same . All

they know is that they look around , they see

houses falling down, some being put back up,

othe:r5being torn down7and there's no real i den­

tification that that 1s a restoration thing. -A:frel~

' that's the one failing that I _ think restoration :: ~ L has had, ~E? that} at this point, restoration

;----. s hould be recognized as being the corner stone,

'--../

y --the7 key ~tone of whats going on in Bedford-~

,_/

Stuyvesanto And I think/ if there 1 s any one

contribution that I ·would want to see someone ~ .. i< ~Joi:

go and make right now1is to make Bedford- Stuyvesant, ~ A .

that Bedford-Stuyvesant project, be in fact what

is representative of that community. Al:ld-.the.w--Q ~~

the other thing that you have is that ~.e-u-ftave----=;.ha~Bedford-Stuyvesant project has a very mid-

dle- class board. That's another thing. If you ever

have to justify that to some~ne, I mean its

just that because it was Robert Kennedy and he ' s

dead and no one really wants:. to undo a lot of

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what 1s been donefthat they f i nd that acceptable.

But if they had to go and deal with that thing

today _, you would have a very unwholesome s i t uation /-­o P.--

Jec aus e the board~ yourve got t h ree j udges on r" ,, that board_, f or instance ; you 1 ve got ninety

pe~cent of the people on there a-r~ professional s \ __ ,...

making well in excess of twenty thousand dol l ars.

And that is not representative of what Bedford­'!

Stuyvesant is all about. They happen to be

people who live in Bedford- Stuyvesant for the

most part, ~ut in terms of bei ng the average

person out of Bedford- Stuyvesant, they're nota

The thing i s, al though they1!~pinion-makers,

they're not--because you have the white board

who can influence getting the money in-- t..fl.·e~e'-~

'rlD...' persons ·who you absolutely have to have

because they have such large constituenciesa

I haven ' t seen them~en they 1 ve had demonstra-~ -{ [Ccrp ol'o.:1 \C>N .

tions marching on Restoration~because "'the trainees

·were unhappy about something ~ it was not the

members of that board who turned it around1but'

Frank Thomas and J ohn Doar going out and dealing

with those kids and saying what they wanted to

GREENE :

hear~at straightened out the problems ,

We ' re going to have to do this again .

Yeah.

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