eastern interior federal subsistence regional … · 10/15/2019 · 135 christensen dr., ste. 2.,...

EASTERN INTERIOR SUBSISTENCE RAC MEETING 10/15/2019 1

EASTERN INTERIOR RAC MEETING

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EASTERN INTERIOR FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING

PUBLIC MEETING

VOLUME I

Pike's Landing Fairbanks, Alaska October 15, 2019

9:00 a.m.

COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:

Sue Entsminger, Chair Andy Bassich Andrew Firmin William Glanz Michael Koehler Timothy McManus Donald Woodruff Charlie Wright

Regional Council Coordinator, Zach Stevenson

Recorded and transcribed by:

Computer Matrix Court Reporters, LLC 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 2 Anchorage, AK 99501 907-243-0668/[email protected]

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 (Fairbanks, Alaska - 10/15/2019) 4 5 (On record) 6 7 (Invocation) 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Call the

10 meeting to order of the Eastern Interior Regional 11 Advisory Council. Now I'm going to ask Andy, he is our 12 Secretary. 13 14 MR. BASSICH: I am? 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yep. To do 17 the roll call and that's on -- if you turn the page, 18 Andy, to four, right there. 19 20 MR. BASSICH: Thank you, Madame Chair. 21 Roll call for the Eastern Interior RAC. This is 22 October 12th? 14th? I don't know. Whatever. 15th, 23 sorry. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: October 15. 26 27 MR. BASSICH: It's fall time. Sue 28 Entsminger. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Here. 31 32 MR. BASSICH: Andrew Firmin. 33 34 MR. FIRMIN: Here. 35 36 MR. BASSICH: Michael J. Koehler. 37 38 MR. KOEHLER: Here. 39 40 MR. BASSICH: William Glanz. 41 42 MR. GLANZ: Here. 43 44 MR. BASSICH: Andrew Bassich here. 45 Robert C. Wright, Sr. 46 47 MR. WRIGHT: Here. 48 49 MR. BASSICH: Charlie Jagow. 50




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1 MR. JAGOW: Here. 2 3 MR. BASSICH: Donald Woodruff. 4 5 MR. WOODRUFF: Here. 6 7 MR. BASSICH: Timothy McManus. 8 9 MR. MCMANUS: Here. 10 11 MR. BASSICH: So all members are 12 present and we have a quorum, Madame Chair. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 15 We're all present. Looking at our draft agenda. 16 Welcome everyone to the Eastern Interior Regional 17 Advisory Council. We'll go around and introduce us and 18 then we'll go to the audience. We'll start with Bill. 19 20 MR. GLANZ: William Glanz, Central. 21 22 MR. MCMANUS: Tim McManus, Nenana. 23 24 MR. WRIGHT: Robert Wright, Tanana. 25 26 MR. WOODRUFF: Don Woodruff, Eagle. 27 28 MR. FIRMIN: Andrew Firmin, Fort Yukon. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Sue 31 Entsminger, Mentasta Pass. 32 33 MR. BASSICH: Andrew Bassich, Eagle. 34 35 MR. KOEHLER: Michael Koehler, Dry 36 Creek. 37 38 MR. JAGOW: Charlie Jagow, Porcupine. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. We'll 41 start with Katya. 42 43 MS. WESSELS: Katya Wessels, OSM. 44 45 MR. KRON: Tom Kron, OSM. 46 47 MS. MCDAVID: Brooke McDavid, Division 48 of Subsistence with ADF&G. 49 50




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1 MR. HAWKALUK: Good morning. I'm 2 Nathan Hawkaluk, Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. 3 4 MR. MATHEWS: Vince Mathews with 5 Arctic, Kanuti and Yukon Flats, Fairbanks. 6 7 MS. LINNELL: Karen Linnell, Ahtna 8 Intertribal Resource Commission. 9

10 MS. SMELCER: Shirley Smelcer, Ahtna 11 Intertribal Resource Commission. 12 13 MR. MASCHMANN: Gerald Maschmann with 14 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Fairbanks. 15 16 MS. STUBY: Lisa Stuby, Alaska 17 Department of Fish and Game, Sport Fish Division, 18 Fairbanks. 19 20 MS. CARROLL: Holly Carroll, Yukon 21 summer season manager for Fish and Game. 22 23 MR. BUE: Fred Bue, Fish and Wildlife 24 Service, Fairbanks. 25 26 MS. MAAS: Lisa Maas, wildlife 27 biologist with OSM. 28 29 DR. BATH: Alistair Bath, Memorial 30 University of Newfoundland, Canada. 31 32 MR. BURCH: Mark Burch, Department of 33 Fish and Game. 34 35 MR. MULLIGAN: Ben Mulligan, Alaska 36 Department of Fish and Game. 37 38 MS. CELLARIUS: Barbara Cellarius, 39 Cultural Anthropologist and Subsistence Coordinator at 40 Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve, Copper 41 Center. 42 43 MS. OKADA: Marcy Okada, Subsistence 44 Coordinator for Yukon-Charlie Rivers National 45 Preserve. 46 47 MR. HARRIS: Frank Harris, fisheries 48 biologist, OSM. 49 50




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1 DR. REAM: Good morning. Joshua Ream, 2 Regional Subsistence Program Manager for the National 3 Park Service. 4 5 MS. BORBA: Bonnie Borba, Fall Season 6 Research Biologist for Alaska Department of Fish and 7 Game. 8 9 MS. GLEASON: Christy Gleason, Fall

10 Season Assistant Manager for Fish and Game in 11 Fairbanks. 12 13 MR. SMITH: My name is David Smith, 14 Arctic Village Second Chief. 15 16 MR. PETER: Evon Peter, Arctic Village 17 and Native Village of (in Gwich'in). 18 19 MR. GILBERT: Galen Gilbert, current 20 First Chief of Arctic Village. 21 22 MS. STEVENS: Carrie Stevens, UAF. 23 24 MS. GARNETT: Tonya Garnett, Native 25 Village of Venetie Tribal Government, Arctic Village 26 Council. 27 28 MS. TRITT: Shayna Tritt, Arctic 29 Village Council. 30 31 MS. YATLIN: Tiffany Yatlin, Tribal 32 Administer for Arctic Village Council. 33 34 MS. GEMMILL: Hi. I'm Margorie 35 Gemmill. I'm Chief of Native Village of Venetie Tribal 36 Government. 37 38 MS. JAMES: Sarah James, Arctic Village 39 and Arctic Refuge. 40 41 MR. LORENZINI: Tim Lorenzini, Tetlin 42 National Wildlife Refuge. 43 44 MR. FLAGEN: Ross Flagen, Tetlin 45 National Wildlife Refuge. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Welcome 48 everyone. Now I'll go online and have anyone online 49 please introduce yourself. 50




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1 MR. LIND: Good morning, Madame Chair, 2 Council members. Orville Lind from the Office of 3 Subsistence Management. 4 5 MR. JOLY: Good morning. This is Kyle 6 Joly with the National Park Service. 7 8 MS. CRAVER: Good morning. This is Amy 9 Craver with Denali National Park and Preserve.

10 11 MS. JALLEN: Good morning. Deena 12 Jallen, Alaska Department of Fish and Game, Yukon River 13 Summer Season Assistant Manager. 14 15 MS. DAMBERG: Good morning. This is 16 Carol Damberg, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 17 Interagency Staff Committee member and Regional 18 Subsistence Coordinator. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else 21 online? 22 23 MS. STICKWAN: Gloria Stickwan with 24 Ahtna Corporation. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else? 27 28 MS. STICKWAN: Gloria Stickwan, Ahtna 29 Corporation. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, okay. I 32 thought I missed it. 33 34 MS. SCOTT: Sarah Scott, Donlin 35 (indiscernible). 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else 38 online? 39 40 MS. WORKER: This is Suzanne Worker 41 with the Office of Subsistence Management. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else? 44 45 MR. SHARP: Good morning. This is Dan 46 Sharp with BLM in Anchorage. I just joined. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I 49 assume we got everyone. 50




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1 I forgot my coordinator. Introduce yourself. 2 3 MR. STEVENSON: Uvlaalluataq. Atiga 4 Zach Stevenson. Good morning. My name is Zach 5 Stevenson. I'm the Subsistence Council Coordinator for 6 the Eastern Interior, Northwest Arctic Regions. 7 8 Thank you, Madame Chair. 9

10 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: OSM is 11 changing hats here a lot lately. Welcome everyone. 12 Now I know review and adopt the agenda is next, but as 13 I was sitting here looking at this I'm thinking our 14 reports should be next and I'll tell you why. Some 15 things that I would report on would reflect the agenda. 16 Do you guys want to do it that way or should I just 17 tell you that we're going to be flexible with the 18 agenda? 19 20 MR. BASSICH: I think it's probably 21 good for you to manage the meeting in the way that 22 makes the most sense, Sue. You probably have some more 23 information than many of us Council members have. I'm 24 quite happy with leaving it up to you to move things 25 around and be flexible on the agenda. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I 28 really feel like we should do our reports next and then 29 take up the review and adopt the agenda. So if that's 30 okay with the Council members. 31 32 (Nods affirmatively) 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Bill, do you 35 want to start. 36 37 MR. GLANZ: Bill Glanz. Anyway, the 38 caribou season was a total mess again in 25C up on the 39 summits. They overkilled in not even a season, but a 40 State hunt. Of course it didn't affect us and a lot of 41 them were asking me if we're going to go and change the 42 dates. I told them I'm certainly not. We couldn't 43 hunt the first two or three days because of the 44 hundreds of people up in the woods shooting at each 45 other. 46 47 So we don't even hunt during the first 48 hunt. Then we go out towards the end of the season to 49 hunt after they close the State. It's just a real mess 50




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1 up there. We all talk about it every year and there's 2 nothing that can be done without the House, Senate and 3 the Governor signing something for us to put it on a 4 drawing basis or something. Anyway, it's just hard to 5 talk about, so upsetting. 6 7 Then I had a problem. I didn't have a 8 problem. Somebody came to me and they said, say, you 9 know, we hunt the Wild and Scenic River and there was

10 somebody from Doyon asking where we're going and 11 showing us lots along the Scenic River. We don't want 12 nobody shooting there because this is private holdings. 13 Well, the Wild and Scenic River kind of like belongs to 14 everybody in America, so I don't know how this lady is 15 telling them where they can shoot and where they can't. 16 I understand down river. Not past the Wild and Scenic 17 Corridor. It's just overstepping, I think. 18 19 Anyway, I'm glad everybody is here and 20 I hope we have a good meeting. 21 22 Thank you. 23 24 MR. MCMANUS: Tim McManus from Nenana. 25 Lots of water this year. It seems really high. It was 26 hard to get to a lot of places that four-wheelers were 27 going to. That was a good thing for some of us. Had 28 to use canoes quite a bit. Lots of hunters came into 29 Nenana this year. Got that boat launch down there, so 30 it was packed. 31 32 The fishing was really good. There was 33 quite a bit of fish this year. A lot of the fishermen 34 did really good, especially the fall run. Other kind 35 of games that we had there was -- some people were 36 telling me that the gosling chicks weren't as abundant 37 as they were before. Other than that it was a good 38 summer and hope these meetings go good. 39 40 Thank you. 41 42 MR. WRIGHT: I was around Rampart. 43 I've been working there since the spring before the 44 snow melted. Seems like we had two springs. The 45 climate change is playing havoc on the migrating birds. 46 Ducks came in early, then it turned back to winter 47 again. I seen birds starving along the river because 48 they didn't have nothing to eat. There was no ground 49 showing. 50




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1 Yukon River Interior the water level 2 was record low this summer during the king season. It 3 made it easier for some people to fish, harder for some 4 others. Water height and level changes, fishing spots. 5 But the king run was really good and managers did a 6 great job on getting us on timing again. I'm really 7 happy about that. Hats off to them for that. Another 8 good year. I didn't do too much fall fishing due to 9 the fact that I did really well during the kings.

10 11 Moose hunting was difficult for a lot 12 of people because of the climate and the warm weather, 13 70 above. The moose didn't go into rut until right at 14 the end and a lot of people are still wanting meat that 15 didn't get it. 16 17 Other than that it was a good summer. 18 Happy to see all your faces and look forward to a great 19 meeting. 20 21 Thank you. 22 23 MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you. This is Don 24 from Eagle. Thanks to Andy and Charlie I had a really 25 good season for king salmon. I fished a lot of the 26 tricklers and that seemed to supply me and all the six 27 families I shared salmon with. 28 29 The moose season again is pretty iffy 30 because of the warm season and the pilots that were 31 flying caribou hunters in mentioned that all the bulls 32 were still up at the tree line during the major part of 33 the hunting season, so that made it very difficult to 34 harvest. 35 36 The boats that I did see come in when I 37 was fishing for chum a lot of them had two small bulls 38 in their boat, so they were pretty successful. I think 39 that's just because young bulls move a little bit 40 earlier in the season. 41 42 I had a very good fall chum season. 43 Thanks to Andy and the RAC we have a good relationship 44 with the fall season managers for chum and the 45 importance of it is to us. They did a subsistence 46 survey and our amount needed for subsistence is like 47 17,000 salmon. So now that they know exactly how much 48 salmon we need it's going to be real beneficial that 49 they have an understanding of what the needs are. It's 50




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1 not just an infinite number. I think most people had a 2 very successful fall season. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MR. FIRMIN: Good morning everyone. 7 This is Andrew Firmin. For my report I know that they 8 -- it seemed like we had a fairly decent moose season. 9 I know not everybody was successful but I did see a lot

10 of people that seemed like they were able to get more 11 than one RAC people hunting and proxy hunting for 12 elders and other extended family, which was fortunate 13 for a lot of people. 14 15 I didn't look at every moose that came 16 into town, but it seemed like one of the trends was 17 they were medium or small-bodied moose. There wasn't a 18 lot of trophies came out except those that were 19 actually looking for them. But it seemed like a lot of 20 those medium-sized moose or they were small-bodied came 21 out. 22 23 I didn't get to go fishing this year 24 unfortunately, but I was able to barter for some fish. 25 It seemed like doing the weekly surveys for YRDFA that 26 everybody had a pretty good season along the river. 27 There was plenty of sharing and caring going on, so 28 that was good for everybody. 29 30 We did have the experience on the water 31 levels all summer and even all through fall on the 32 Yukon, but our other tributaries were high and 33 fluctuating as normal, but the Yukon was pretty low all 34 summer long. 35 36 Recently I noticed that -- just talking 37 to the other people -- I went on an ATV ride last 38 weekend and put in about 20, 30 miles and didn't see 39 one rabbit, but I did see a fox. So them guys look 40 like they're in decline, but now that there's snow on 41 the ground, the snow is probably going to stick now 42 since the ground is finally freezing at home. We'll 43 see what kind of tracks are out when I get back. 44 45 Other than that I look forward to a 46 good meeting and hearing the topics this go round. 47 48 MR. BASSICH: Thank you, Madame Chair. 49 Andy Bassich from Eagle. I really want to echo the 50




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1 issues that climate change is starting to have with 2 moose hunting and the timing of the rut. I'm not sure 3 how we're going to address that into the future, but 4 it's something that needs to be in the minds of people 5 and in the minds of managers. There may be a need into 6 the future to change some of the dates for seasons. It 7 was way too warm during a lot of the season to hunt 8 moose and definitely all I saw were small bulls. 9

10 I am seeing a few more than usual signs 11 of grizzly in our area, more than I've seen in probably 12 the last 10 years. I'm not really sure why that's 13 happening, but that seems to be an observation. 14 15 As far as other ungulates, I'm really 16 kind of disappointed that the caribou didn't make it 17 over into the American summit region, Zone 3. I don't 18 think the harvest was much at all. It seems like the 19 caribou were heading that way and then they turned and 20 headed back. We're really hoping that they show up in 21 the winter. 22 23 Salmon and caribou are the mainstay for 24 the folks in Eagle. It's a really important resource, 25 so we're all keeping our fingers crossed and hoping 26 that the wind blows really hard and blows them our way 27 this winter. 28 29 Regarding how the king salmon season 30 went, people did well. I do want to make sure it's on 31 the record that even though people did well that was 32 because management did a great job. Holly Carroll is 33 in the room here. I'd like to complement her. I think 34 she's been one of the best managers we've had in the 35 king salmon fishery. She really does a great job of 36 getting fish to people up and down the river and trying 37 to balance that with the escapement needs. 38 39 But we're still below 50 percent or 40 right around 50 percent of our historic averages of 41 king salmon. There's a lot of work to do and I think 42 it's really important and incumbent upon all the 43 Councils and just the people in Alaska to keep 44 reminding ourselves that if we really want to get back 45 to king salmon the way it was, we've got a lot of work 46 ahead of us for a lot of years and it's probably this 47 generation that's going to have to do most of the work. 48 49 50




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1 Our generation is going to be gone 2 before it ever really comes back if we want to try to 3 get it to come back. So I just really want to put that 4 on the record. Although it seems like good fishing, 5 it's nowhere near what it used to be and we have to 6 keep reminding ourselves and bringing that up otherwise 7 we're just going to have this status quo. 8 9 Regarding the fall chum, people in

10 Eagle got what they needed. We have in the last two 11 years had to fish for, many people, over a month to get 12 what they needed, where we used to fish for two weeks 13 to get what we needed. So it seems like climate change 14 -- I'm not sure if that's affecting us, but it seems 15 like the runs are shifting a little bit later, at least 16 the bulk of the run. They seem like they're coming in 17 kind of normal time, but it seems like the bulk of the 18 run is coming later and later in September. 19 20 We never saw any visible pulse in 21 Eagle. It's just kind of a steady fishing, but it was 22 low. I fished longer this year than I've ever fished 23 in my life to get what I needed. Some people are 24 telling me that they're getting what they need, but 25 what they've done is reduced the amount of numbers that 26 they feel like they need because they just can't afford 27 to fish any more than 30 days. 28 29 It's getting cold, the wheels are 30 starting to ice up and they're just saying I'd like to 31 get a little bit more, but this is good enough. So we 32 still have some work in management to try to balance 33 that and see if we can't get a pulse to show up there, 34 a substantial pulse to come up. I know there's a 35 challenges with doing that, but I think all in all it 36 was a good fishing season for people. 37 38 River water was extremely low all 39 summer long. It never did come up. Water temperatures 40 were very high all summer. There's a lot of changes 41 going on in the country out there. Some of them we're 42 going to be able to do things about, some of them it's 43 just going to be a regime change on how things happen 44 into the future, I think. 45 46 I'm really looking forward to some of 47 the discussion at the meeting here and looking forward 48 to hearing from the young guys at the table because 49 really they're the ones that are going to have to solve 50




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1 a lot of these problems into the future. I'm really 2 stoked that they're involved. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MR. KOEHLER: Michael Koehler, Dry 7 Creek. The fall caribou season was really slow again, 8 really hot weather, and the herd 9 came in really late. We were up there the last couple

10 days when they're normally there and they weren't. 11 12 The heat wasn't very good for moose 13 hunting either, of course. All the moose weren't in 14 rut, of course. Yeah, it was some difficult moose 15 hunting and then taking care of the meat in that 16 temperature. One interesting thing that I found 17 talking to Sue was a lot of black bear were up a lot 18 higher than I've ever seen them before. Pretty 19 interesting. I don't know if that was due to the 20 temperature, the weather or what. We also had a really 21 good blueberry season. 22 23 I'm glad to be here. I'm glad there's 24 snow. We have about 18 inches of snow at home. It 25 settled down to about 12, but it was just amazing when 26 you come to Fairbanks and there's none. It's a 27 different world. 28 29 MR. JAGOW: Charlie Jagow. I'd have to 30 reflect everybody else's concerns about how hot it was. 31 It was a very early breakup, a very high breakup on the 32 Sheenjek and Colleen. It was a very hot and dry 33 summer. We had an extremely bad fire year in Yukon 34 Flats. Then a very warm fall with a lot of rain, which 35 made for pretty terrible moose hunting. A lot of 36 difficulty for those of us that don't have access to 37 freezers and have to keep meat in a smokehouse during 38 the season. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you, 41 Council members. First of all, I want to apologize, 42 Robert. I had a senior moment I believe. You are the 43 Secretary. 44 45 (Laughter) 46 47 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I really 48 apologize. In our area all this weather, yeah, there 49 was like 10 days in March that I put my plants out on 50




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1 the front porch because it was that warm outside, but 2 that didn't last. It got cold again and I couldn't put 3 them out again until it was time. 4 5 A lot of people are saying it stayed 6 hot, while we had a lot of rain in July and August. 7 Some of the areas did not. So we ended up with a great 8 berry year. We had some localized wolf trapping going 9 on and people in Mentasta were very successful getting

10 moose, more than the people in Tok, which I thought was 11 very interesting. Then I learned that some of the 12 people in Tok are taking advantage of some of the 13 Federal seasons up north. 14 15 And then this snow is so isolated. I 16 didn't realize you guys had that much. We had a heavy, 17 wet snow. Six inches once, three inches once and then 18 another six inches, but it settled less than a foot 19 right now. Early and a heavy, wet snow, bringing all 20 the brush down, so when you get out on a snowmachine 21 it's pretty tough to get out on a trapline. I went to 22 pull one of my bear cameras and it took me forever to 23 get out there and get back. 24 25 We were involved with Ahtna on 26 collecting hair samples around Mentasta for their bear 27 study. They'll be here giving their report later. 28 I've attended the SRC meeting taking up proposals for 29 the Wrangell Park. There will be a lot of that stuff 30 come before us. Barbara brings things up as it comes 31 up in the meeting. 32 33 As the meeting came into play, I 34 remember all the work we did on Arctic Village and 35 trying to talk to Arctic Village. I guess OSM is 36 understaffed. Katya didn't get her letter out to 37 Arctic Village that we requested from our meeting until 38 August. Then I kept contacting Ben and Carrie here. 39 40 I was trying to call Carrie Stevens who 41 is involved with Arctic Village and I still had her old 42 Fort Yukon number. I finally called her husband. I 43 wanted to talk to people in Fort Yukon because nothing 44 really happened. Remember we were talking about having 45 a working group and all this? Nothing ever happened. 46 47 So I made a phone call to Ben, he gave 48 me Arctic Village's phone number and I called up and I 49 asked them if there's any way I can meet with people on 50




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1 Monday, who would be in town. I think Carrie set it up 2 because I called Carrie and said, hey, Carrie, I'd like 3 to talk to you and I walked in at 5:30 when she told me 4 to arrive and I had 8 people from Arctic Village there. 5 6 7 So last night I spent over two hours 8 talking to the people and it was an extremely 9 productive thing. I told them I took all the blame for

10 the Board of Game proposal and we discussed it until 11 they understood the difference in the Federal and the 12 State because it takes us a while to wrap our head 13 around it sometimes. The seasons and bag limits and 14 what they mean and what you can do and what you can't 15 do. 16 17 I was impressed with the respect and I 18 told them that's what I want to see is we respect each 19 other and like the Board of Game proposal. I'm not 20 going to get into it, but at the end I thought we 21 accomplished more, like a roundtable discussion, than 22 we would have done in four years of these meetings. I 23 feel like even the hunter ed thing we had two formal 24 meetings and then we had a roundtable discussion here. 25 At least it keeps the momentum of what are wishes are 26 going. 27 28 So I felt that's what we should do with 29 the hunter ed and I also feel we should do that with 30 the -- we talked and I said you guys, Arctic Village, 31 if you were here and we could talk with you all and the 32 Council members, we would really be going forward. We 33 would have our working group. 34 35 So I have asked them or I mean I told 36 them I would like to see this happen at our meeting. 37 So that's why I wanted to do this report before we set 38 the agenda because I'm going to ask that after the 39 hunter ed one, we are doing a roundtable. I want to do 40 it with Arctic Village too. 41 42 At that point Pippa is going to help me 43 out procedurally. We'll be discussing both of them and 44 how everything works and people you'll get to hear from 45 them. I just feel it's very, very productive, so 46 that's what I'm going to be asking. 47 48 So now I'm going to move to review and 49 adopt the agenda. I want to say there's some time 50




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1 certain things that have come to me. One of the Arctic 2 Village people that would be talking has commitments to 3 do AFN this afternoon, so he's here this morning. So 4 I'd like to have it done this morning. 5 6 That proposal on GMU-12 moose the 7 biologist is out capturing and he could come in early 8 in the morning. So if we could be flexible with that 9 proposal and do it in the morning. That would be

10 WP20-50. He's flying now and he will delay flying to 11 just come in and be with us when we take this up. 12 13 So looking at the agenda I think all 14 I'm seeing then is we'll do 50 tomorrow morning and 15 then we're going to add this discussion I would say 16 after the hunter ed because of the time. All right. 17 Andy. 18 19 MR. BASSICH: Sure. Madame Chair, I'd 20 like to make a motion that we add to the agenda a 21 roundtable discussion with the people from Arctic 22 Village and I'll leave it up to the Chair to fit it in 23 to the agenda where she wishes. So why don't we vote 24 on that and I'll just have one other quick one. 25 26 MR. KOEHLER: I second that. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any other 29 discussion. Donald. 30 31 MR. WOODRUFF: I'd prefer that we 32 include Fish and Game. Mark Burch is here and he would 33 like to participate in the roundtable. He'd probably 34 have some information that we could all share. 35 36 Thank you. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I would say 39 people that need to be here for that discussion 40 whenever we discuss it they can come up also. Okay. 41 Any other discussion. 42 43 (No comments) 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 46 Everyone in favor say aye. 47 48 IN UNISON: Aye. 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone 2 opposed. 3 4 (No opposing votes) 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 7 8 MR. BASSICH: Madame Chair. I don't 9 know if we need this motion, but I'd like to make a

10 motion that the Chair be given the latitude to move the 11 agenda around in the manner she sees fit to -- let's 12 just put it this way. Make a motion that we be 13 flexible with the agenda during this meeting. 14 15 MR. FIRMIN: Second. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any other 18 discussion. 19 20 MR. FIRMIN: Question. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All in favor 23 say aye. 24 25 IN UNISON: Aye. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone 28 opposed. 29 30 (No opposing votes) 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Thank 33 you. The minutes is next. Review and adopt. 34 35 MR. FIRMIN: Move to adopt the minutes 36 as written. 37 38 MR. WOODRUFF: Second. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Discussion. 41 42 MR. FIRMIN: I read the minutes and 43 didn't see any glaring errors. That's where I saw I 44 was Secretary, but other than that it looks good to me. 45 46 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I feel pretty 47 bad. Donald. 48 49 MR. WOODRUFF: Before the meeting this 50




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1 morning I was talking with the staff and they're 2 spending about three weeks doing our minutes and that's 3 really cutting into their time. Personally, I review 4 the minutes every meeting and sometimes from home, but 5 usually I just go right to the proposals because that's 6 the critical part that we have to deal with. 7 8 I saw some issues in the minutes that 9 weren't dealt with and one of them was that me and

10 Charlie and Mr. McManus were part of a working group 11 that never formed for this Arctic Village thing. We 12 volunteered but we never heard from anybody, so I think 13 that we can all do better. I'm willing to work with 14 anybody that wants to make things a little bit 15 smoother. 16 17 Thank you. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I am finding 20 out -- they did contact me. Lisa helped me with the 21 proposal. I think what we wanted that might not be 22 completely understood in the minutes though is that we 23 wanted to see a working group working with Arctic 24 Village. Wasn't it your understanding? We wrote the 25 proposal and then we wanted to have more contact with 26 Arctic Village. 27 28 I guess OSM is understaffed is what I'm 29 hearing and there's a lot of things that we want to do 30 that's falling through the cracks and that makes it 31 really hard for us because we like to see things get 32 done. That's not to the motion but it's important that 33 we get that out at this meeting, I think. 34 35 Any other discussion. 36 37 MR. FIRMIN: Question. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The question 40 has been called for. All in favor. 41 42 IN UNISON: Aye. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone 45 opposed. 46 47 (No opposing votes) 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Motion 50




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1 passes. Now this is the part -- is there any public or 2 tribal comments on non-agenda items that we must do 3 every morning. If anybody has any non-agenda items, 4 they can come up and speak to us. 5 6 MS. LINNELL: I have a PowerPoint. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Karen did say 9 to me that AITRC wanted to give a report. It could

10 either be done -- is this like non-agenda, Karen? 11 12 MS. LINNELL: Yes. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 15 Council members, we can allow it. Do you want to see 16 the PowerPoint? 17 18 (Council nods) 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I 21 guess I would have to take a short break, huh, to set 22 up a PowerPoint or not? 23 24 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 25 This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. I think we do have a 26 projector. I was wondering if we maybe wanted it to go 27 when we have our agency and tribal organization reports 28 towards the end of the meeting. 29 30 MS. LINNELL: Is that okay, Karen, 31 because I thought you had to be over at AFN. 32 33 MS. LINNELL: I can come back. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 36 37 MS. KENNER: Just a suggestion. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah, that 40 was why I was understanding that she -- so you're good 41 with that, Karen? 42 43 MS. LINNELL: Yeah, that will be fine. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 46 Are there any other public or tribal comments on 47 non-agenda items. 48 49 MR. GRASSER: Alaska Fish and Game 50




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1 would like to give an update on the wood bison 2 restoration project. That's not on the agenda. 3 4 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I think that 5 would come under the ADF&G, that report. Council 6 members, this is where we're flexible. We're going to 7 add under ADF&G reports the wood bison. 8 9 MR. GRASSER: Thank you.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you. 12 That would be C under ADF&G on Page 3. I'm sorry. I 13 guess it's D. I got the draft of the minutes. Yeah, 14 it's item D after a burbot report. 15 16 Okay. Any other. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Under 21 old business Wildlife Closure Reviews on Page 26. It's 22 WCR20-42, Unit 12 caribou. 23 24 MS. MAAS: Thank you, Madame Chair and 25 Council. My name is Lisa Maas and I'm a wildlife 26 biologist in the Office of Subsistence Management. 27 28 As you may recall, the Council 29 considered and made a recommendation for Wildlife 30 Closure Review WCR20-42 concerning the Mentasta and 31 Chisana Caribou Herds at its meeting last March. The 32 analysis for this closure review begins on Page 26 of 33 your meeting books for reference. The Council's 34 recommendation is listed on a piece of paper that was 35 just handed out and was to maintain status quo until 36 more information is available. 37 38 The Board will make a final decision on 39 this closure review at its meeting in April. This is 40 just a brief update and reminder about this closure 41 review, but I'm happy to answer any questions or 42 provide more detail about the analysis or the closure 43 review process at the Council's discretion. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Is there a 46 timeline on this? 47 48 MS. MAAS: Yes. The Council acted on 49 this closure review last March and the Board will make 50




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1 the final decision in April on the closure review. 2 This is a new process. We used to just bring the 3 closure reviews to the Council and they stopped there 4 and the Council decided whether or not to submit a 5 proposal. 6 7 We reviewed the closure policy and now 8 they're actually being treated just like proposals, so 9 the Board will consider these just like the proposal at

10 its meeting in April. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any 13 questions. Andy. 14 15 MR. BASSICH: Has there been any new 16 information or anything that would potentially affect 17 our Council's recommendation biologically in this? 18 19 MS. MAAS: No, I'm not aware of any new 20 information. I don't think anyone here is from 21 Wrangell-St. Elias. I know they are working to put out 22 more radio collars on the Mentasta Herd, but there's 23 nothing definitive that would really change the 24 information in the analysis. 25 26 MR. BASSICH: Madame Chair. Hearing 27 that there's been no biological changes or anything 28 since we discussed this at a previous meeting this is 29 our recommendation, my recommendation to our Council is 30 that we retain our recommendation for the Federal Board 31 to take under advisement. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Did you make 34 that a motion? 35 36 MR. BASSICH: No. Just a comment. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Good. 39 40 MR. WOODRUFF: I don't think we need a 41 motion. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Lisa. 44 45 MS. MAAS: Yeah, I was just confirming 46 this is not an action item. It's just kind of a FYI, 47 remember this is happening. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So when did 50




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1 they make the change to -- you know, it goes to the 2 Council and then..... 3 4 MS. MAAS: Oh, it was this cycle. So 5 this past year is when..... 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So all 8 Wildlife Closure Reviews will be similarly treated. 9

10 MS. MAAS: Correct. So we're doing 11 them on a staggered four-year basis, so you'll see this 12 closure review again in four years and then the other 13 half of the closure reviews you'll see in two years. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 16 Thanks, Lisa. Now, the next thing on the agenda is our 17 hunter ethics education report from Katya. 18 19 MS. WESSELS: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 Members of the Council. Good to see you all. So I'm 21 going to give you an update on what happened since we 22 met last time in the spring of this year. Basically 23 the only one event took place since then I presented 24 the whole hunter ethics education initiative to the 25 Federal Subsistence Board. I am going to give you an 26 overview of what I presented to the Board. It will be 27 a good reminder for further discussion so everyone is 28 aware of what's been done so far on this initiative. 29 30 So in 2005/2009, the Council became 31 increasingly concerned about escalating user conflict 32 in the region. 48 percent of the region are Federal 33 public lands administered by U.S. Fish and Wildlife 34 Service, BLM and NPS. As you can imagine, the 35 patchwork of land ownership, different applicable 36 regulations and different cultural hunting values of 37 different user groups and present a lot of potential 38 for misunderstanding and user conflict. 39 40 In 2009, the Council voiced a need for 41 hunter ethics education program in a letter to OSM. 42 The Council took a proactive position on working 43 towards achieving understanding and 44 tolerance for different cultural values as a means to 45 reduce waste and work towards better hunter ethics in 46 the field. 47 48 Throughout 2010 to 2015, the Council 49 continued to bring this issue to the Board's attention 50




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1 and requesting hunter ethics education in its annual 2 reports. In 2016, in its annual report reply, the Board 3 stated that it fully supports this effort and looks 4 forward to a successful program. 5 6 During its winter 2017 meeting, the 7 Council had an extensive discussion on record on how to 8 proceed with this initiative. At this point the Council 9 clearly stated that it wanted the work to be done in

10 cooperation with the State. The Council felt so 11 strongly about the importance of this hunter ethics 12 education initiative that at that meeting the Council 13 voted to adopt hunter 14 ethics education as a regular agenda item for any 15 future Council meetings. 16 17 In the late spring, early summer of 19 18 2017, OSM prepared an action plan to develop pilot 19 projects and timeline for its implementation. The plan 20 and timeline were presented to the Board during its 21 July 2017 session, the Board approved them and directed 22 OSM to proceed. 23 24 The intent of this initiative from the 25 start has been to develop a positive and collaborative 26 volunteer hunter outreach and education program using 27 partnerships and a stakeholder consensus process. The 28 program that's being developed is not intended to be a 29 substitute for the State of Alaska Hunter Education 30 Program. And to be clear, this educational program 31 would not involve any new Federal regulations. The goal 32 is to work within existing structures and systems. 33 34 The Council stressed that it is 35 important to partner and 36 collaborate with other Federal land management 37 agencies, State of Alaska, Native tribal organizations, 38 and hunter organizations, air taxis and transporters. 39 To be inclusive and move forward in a positive way. 40 Create a dialogue between subsistence and 41 sport/commercial users. 42 43 The first hunter ethics education 44 brainstorming workshop was held in Fairbanks in 45 September of 2017. It brought together 22 46 representatives from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 47 BLM, NPS, Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska Department of 48 Fish and 49 Game, University of Alaska-Fairbanks, and Tanana Chiefs 50




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1 Conference. 2 3 The meeting was the first step in 4 building a stakeholder consensus. The participants of 5 that workshop stressed the importance of building 6 partnerships across different user groups and the 7 cultural sensitivity needs to go both ways, which will 8 create a better path to build cultural understanding. 9

10 It was specifically noted that in 11 Alaska user conflicts cannot be solved just by using 12 regulations, it needs to be addressed by way of human 13 to human interaction and that it's important to think 14 outside of the box to find creative ways to foster 15 partnerships. 16 17 The ideas presented at the meeting laid 18 a foundation for developing a draft hunter education 19 outreach strategy that will share different 20 perspectives, cultural, traditions and share values and 21 provide resources for hunters to get more information 22 and encourage interest and volunteer participation in 23 education programs. 24 25 During the workshop the three pilot 26 project concepts were developed. I will talk more 27 about them in a little bit. The results of the 28 workshop were summarized in the report and I shared the 29 report with you at one of the previous meetings. 30 31 After that we had a roundtable 32 discussion at the Council 33 meeting in the winter of 2018. At the same meeting the 34 Yukon 35 Flats National Wildlife Refuge reported on making steps 36 towards implementation of concept two, the local 37 community hunter liaison. 38 39 Then we had a second workshop and was 40 held in Fairbanks in October 2018. The results of this 41 workshop are still being processed. We did not 42 finalize the report. It needs some serious rewriting. 43 The success of the workshop was apparent because this 44 time around we were able to get a much wider group 45 of representatives, of stakeholders. We had about 40 46 people. 47 48 Besides Federal and State agencies we 49 additionally included subsistence users from TCC 50




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1 region, Arctic Village, Northway, Nenana, Venetie, 2 Manley and representatives from the Ahtna region, as 3 well as representatives from hunter organizations, 4 which included Alaska Wild Sheep Foundation, Alaska 5 Outdoor Council and Alaska Safari Club International. 6 We were also fortunate that time to have 7 representatives from both Fort Wainwright and Eielson 8 Air Force Base. 9

10 At that workshop the participants 11 worked on deepening the understanding and developing 12 the three concepts for the pilot 13 projects. I will talk about the first concept, local 14 community 15 liaison program. It is a targeted hunter outreach 16 program. It intends to share community-developed 17 messages about local hunting values and traditions to 18 hunters arriving at an airport. 19 20 The Fort Yukon airport was specifically 21 targeted. The community liaison would engage newly 22 arrived non-local hunters in a conversation and would 23 provide them with gift game bag imprinted with the key 24 messages developed by the project partners with 25 community input. 26 27 This would help build awareness of 28 local customs and traditions and mutual understanding 29 before hunting activities begin. A followup visit with 30 the liaison representative before hunting would be 31 offered to interested hunters. This concept project 32 could be replicated in many rural access airports. So 33 that was the concept. 34 35 It was put into reality in Fort Yukon. 36 At this point I would like to invite Vince to talk a 37 little bit more about what's been done. I have 38 actually here a hunter liaison report from Fort Yukon 39 that I'm going to pass around while Vince is talking 40 about what happened with a partial implementation of 41 this pilot project. 42 43 MR. MATHEWS: Good morning. My name is 44 Vince Mathews. I'm the Refuge Subsistence Coordinator 45 for Kanuti, Arctic and Yukon Flats. Yes, she's passing 46 around the report from Paul Shewfelt from the Fort 47 Yukon one. 48 49 Since we'll start off with the Fort 50




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1 Yukon hunter liaison, I also want to pass around the 2 brochure that was created by Council of Athabaskan 3 Tribal Governments. If I get into acronyms, that's 4 CATG. So I'll pass this around. This is provided to 5 hunters passing through at the airport and also at the 6 bridge. 7 8 So that's where that's at. We now have 9 this program or you have this program expanded to

10 Circle and I didn't make enough copies, but I think 11 there's enough for the Council members. The hunter 12 liaison in Circle City, that's another major take-off 13 point to go hunting on Federal public lands. 14 15 So that was put together by Amanda 16 Pope. I'll pass that around. You'll notice the amount 17 of hunting effort. I should say outreach effort and 18 how thorough her report is. So if you have questions 19 on that, I'll carry those back to her. I only made 20 like 10 copies, so I'll try to make some more for the 21 public. 22 23 So both of those hunter ethic outreach 24 efforts are moving forward. I apologize that I didn't 25 catch the names, but someone else in the crowd probably 26 has those names. There was some dignitaries from 27 Washington, D.C. that was passing through Fort Yukon 28 and they were extremely impressed with Paul Shewfelt 29 and that brochure. So I apologize I didn't capture 30 their names. Again, it received praise about doing this 31 effort. 32 33 So that is the hunter ethics one. I 34 don't know if you want me to go into military relations 35 or not. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Absolutely. 38 39 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. I thought you 40 would. But I'm a little concerned there's a wire under 41 this chair. Is this the hot seat? 42 43 (Laughter) 44 45 MS. WESSELS: Maybe I should present 46 the concept first before you talk more in detail. 47 48 MR. MATHEWS: Sure. 49 50




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1 MS. WESSELS: I also just wanted to add 2 that when Vince was talking about dignitaries, they 3 were upper management from the Department of Interior 4 and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Like we don't 5 remember what their names were, but they passed a 6 positive message about Paul Shewfelt's work onto our 7 Regional Director. So that was a positive aspect. 8 That's how far this concept with hunter liaison moved 9 forward. So what was done in Fort Yukon and in

10 Central. 11 12 The next concept that was 13 developed..... 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Can I ask a 16 quick question. 17 18 MS. WESSELS: Yeah. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Where did 21 this person -- is he right at the airport watching 22 people get off the airplane and then handed them stuff? 23 Is that how it happened? 24 25 MR. MATHEWS: When I observed him, 26 basically the hunters would go over to their guide 27 area, which is separate from the airport and then he 28 would greet them there and share pictures and 29 background for the area. So he would have both met him 30 at the airport itself, but when the hunters went over 31 to their guide area it's off on the apron of the 32 airport is where he would meet him. 33 34 I didn't observe him at the launching 35 ramp on the Yukon, but it probably would have been a 36 similar situation. Paul was covering both areas, but 37 mainly focusing on the airport. At Circle it would 38 have been at the boat ramp. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: What do you 41 mean by guide area. These were Alaska hunting guides 42 with their hunters? 43 44 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. It would be..... 45 46 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: And they had 47 a place at the end of the airport somewhere? 48 49 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. Correct. Now 50




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1 that's just when I observed him, but I would guess that 2 was kind of the case as well as other hunters coming 3 through. Paul did an excellent job. It was amazing to 4 watch him. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you. 7 Anyone else have any questions. 8 9 MR. FIRMIN: I do.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Go ahead. 12 13 MR. FIRMIN: Have you ever received any 14 negative comments? 15 16 MR. MATHEWS: No, I didn't and Paul's 17 report didn't mention any. Some of you met Paul. I 18 think he's always on the positive, so I think there may 19 have been times where there needed to be more 20 explanation, but I don't think there was any negative. 21 I think there was one individual that refused to talk, 22 but I'd have to get a look at his report. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 25 26 MR. BASSICH: Just from my recollection 27 of reading that report and hearing it from Paul, from 28 what I remember it was mostly positive and really I 29 think has been alluded to. It was just one person who 30 felt uncomfortable being approached and Paul didn't 31 press it. That is what he did so well is he was able 32 to read people a little bit and if he felt like they 33 would be a little bit uncomfortable by his approach he 34 just walked away in a very positive way and said have a 35 good hunt. So it was all very positive. 36 37 I think having a key person like that 38 starting a program like that is really important. 39 We'll get into a lot more discussion, but from what I 40 remember it was all very, very positive. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I think this 43 is awesome that the Refuge did this. This is great. 44 This is the kind of stuff I think that needs to happen 45 statewide. Any other questions. 46 47 (No comments) 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay, Katya, 50




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1 go ahead. 2 3 MS. WESSELS: Yeah, I also wanted to 4 remind the Council both Sue and Andy were at the second 5 workshop and Paul Shewfelt, the liaison, Fort Yukon, he 6 was presented at that meeting. I think everybody would 7 agree that he was the right man for the job. He was 8 very positive, very engaging, very entertaining. I 9 think that if we could find people like that to be

10 liaisons in every single airport, we'll move forward 11 really quickly because he could create a very good 12 atmosphere. So that's a very positive aspect of that. 13 14 So the second concept that was 15 developed at the first workshop in 2017 was working 16 with the military. Originally that concept was called 17 Don't Be That Hunter, but at the second workshop the 18 participants thought that it had a negative 19 connotation, so this concept got renamed Hunt Like An 20 Alaskan. 21 22 It would be a target hunter outreach 23 and education program to teach the importance of mutual 24 respect while hunting through building improved 25 relationships between military, local communities and 26 the land. The campaign would focus on military hunters 27 and provide information on different sets of values, 28 perceptions of hunting space and local customs and 29 tradition. 30 31 We were able to move that concept 32 forward slightly right before your meeting last March. 33 First of all we had a teleconference, Vince and I. The 34 group that volunteered to be on the working group to 35 develop the military Hunt Like an Alaskan project. So 36 there was a subcommittee if you want to call it that 37 way, building a relationship with military personnel. 38 39 So we held a teleconference on February 40 27, 2019 and then we had an in-person meeting on March 41 4th right before the Council meeting. Andy and Michael 42 Koehler participated in that subcommittee meeting. So 43 the participants were Fort Wainwright, Eielson Air 44 Force Base, Ahtna Intertribal Resource Commission, 45 Alaska Outdoor Council, Yukon-Charley National Park, 46 Arctic/Kanuti/Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge, BLM 47 and Eastern Interior Council and OSM. 48 49 There was a lot of willingness from the 50




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1 military site to work with us. Unfortunately, due to 2 the staff shortages at OSM, we were not able to move 3 forward with this concept after that meeting. So 4 there's still a possibility to do that. We just need 5 to find time. 6 7 Just to mention also the third concept. 8 It was named Hunt With Heart, It's the Alaskan Way, and 9 that would be a statewide hunter education campaign.

10 This campaign would be implemented 11 via a collective action, public, private community 12 partnership to unify Alaskan hunters around shared 13 values. 14 15 So that is a very large project that 16 will require lots of effort. There's a small 17 subcommittee that also, during the second workshop, 18 volunteered to work on this project. To my knowledge 19 nothing had been done to move this forward. 20 21 When I presented all this what's 22 happened to the Board, the Board had been very 23 favorably impressed and commended the work that's been 24 done and the Board believes that this work can address 25 public's request for more communication and building 26 trust and getting information out there to the public. 27 The Board said that it's extremely important to 28 continue this initiative. 29 30 The Board also agreed to direct OSM to 31 prepare a letter of 32 support for this initiative. It will not be a letter 33 of support for actually soliciting the funds because in 34 regards of the funding the Board said that individual 35 agencies that comprise the Board need to see more 36 specific about concrete projects before considering to 37 commit agency funding. 38 39 As you will see in the Board's reply to 40 the Annual Report, and you actually have that in your 41 meeting books, it specifically addressed in more detail 42 some of the questions that Council had about the 43 funding, about how they can't proceed. 44 45 So this is what I have to report at 46 this point. I also wanted to share with you the quote 47 that I ended with in my presentation to the Board 48 because I think it's very indicative of what we're 49 doing here and this is a quote by Aldo Leopold. He 50




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1 said, "A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the 2 hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or 3 disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are 4 dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of 5 onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance 6 of this fact." 7 8 Our hopes that the hunter ethics 9 education outreach pilot project will encourage this

10 inner consciousness to blossom. 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any 15 questions. Oh, Vince, before I forget it, in that 16 report I think the Council members like to see a copy 17 of that, what you took to the Board. 18 19 MS. WESSELS: That I took to the Board? 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. 22 23 MS. WESSELS: It's actually just my 24 notes, per se. I can share it, I guess, because it's 25 been reported to the Board. Yeah, I can email 26 everybody. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It would be 29 nice to have that. 30 31 MS. WESSELS: Yes, it's kind of a -- 32 basically summarizes everything what was done in a 33 shorter format than a bigger report. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. That 36 would be great. Thank you. 37 38 Go ahead, Donald. 39 40 MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you, Madame Chair. 41 I just want to make a comment about Eagle. I don't see 42 a lot of waste, but I don't think the hunters that come 43 there necessarily understand the hunter ethics issues. 44 45 We have a YCC group of kids that work 46 with the Park Service in the office and they do a 47 little outdoor maintenance stuff with non-aggressive 48 type tools. I think that that might be a good avenue. 49 Someone could mentor them to interview hunters at the 50




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1 boat landing. 2 3 That would get them out of the office, 4 which most kids don't want to be in, and it would 5 instill some ethics to the young people too that they 6 see other people harvesting maybe in a little more 7 appropriate way than they would, even the kids when 8 they're not around adults. 9

10 So I think that's important and I think 11 the Park Service could be very proactive about this in 12 Eagle. There's very little Park Service activity in 13 Eagle other than that in the summertime. 14 15 Thank you. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else. 18 19 Vince. 20 21 MR. MATHEWS: A little bit further on 22 the military project. We did meet, as she said, and we 23 were going to try to get clarity on goals and all that. 24 So that's still pending. 25 26 Fort Wainwright did contact us about 27 doing an event out at Eielson, but due to field work 28 and timing we weren't able to do that. So I don't know 29 if they're present in the room, but I and others need 30 to get back to them to thank them for that offer, but 31 we weren't able to pull it off and that would have been 32 some kind of booth when they were exhibiting -- well, 33 it was an open house. We'll put it that way. 34 35 So we'd have to see if they're still 36 interested and I think Donald brought up a good point. 37 Due to a lot of different staffing, we need to look at 38 getting more agencies involved in both of these 39 projects or all three of them I should say, but 40 particularly the military one. 41 42 Thank you. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Go ahead, 45 Katya. 46 47 MS. WESSELS: Thank you. I also wanted 48 to add that for the same reason like Vince was saying, 49 due to staffing shortages, OSM at this point -- you 50




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1 know, we're willing to facilitate the dialogues and 2 bring people together. 3 4 The other thing that we can offer is 5 really on our website we can have a page dedicated to 6 hunter ethics initiative and there we can put all the 7 reports that were generated during the workshops, any 8 links that are available or any of the resources that 9 have been developed. Like, for example, ADF&G, they

10 have a lot of good resources, but sometimes it's hard 11 to find them. 12 13 But if people know that this is one 14 kind of a stop-shop for the hunter ethics initiative, 15 that there they can go and there would be a link to 16 another resource. Maybe there's a video on how you 17 butcher an animal or whatever you have to do or what 18 are the cultural values of any particular area is. If 19 there's already a resource developed, they can get it 20 on our website. Go through that link to the original 21 source. We're not going to be creating, per se, new 22 materials, but it will be a start of something. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Just 25 hearing this thing that's happened in Fort Yukon is 26 like, wow, cool. It's like the whole hunter ethic 27 thing we've been only relying on some kind of money, 28 funding to meet. I see it's all here. This is how I 29 see it, guys. I see that if all these Federal agencies 30 -- we're talking on Federal land -- had similar -- 31 somebody in each of these Federal agencies had somebody 32 in these regions doing these little steps, baby steps, 33 as you called it, Andy, going forward is a lot better 34 than waiting for funding for a project to happen. 35 36 Andy. 37 38 MR. BASSICH: Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 I think Don brings up a great point that really 40 demonstrates that out of the three projects the one 41 that was the most cost-effective to initiate and 42 basically it's just a function of some of the agency 43 people, some of the public partnering together can be 44 implemented very cost effectively. Very little cost. 45 It's just adding to programs that are already in place 46 in many instances. 47 48 In the large meeting that we had, the 49 idea was to try and develop some things that could 50




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1 happen very quickly, very cost effectively, kind of a 2 mid-range approach, which is working with the military 3 and then the pie-in-the-sky type of projects that we 4 would try and develop more statewide or in regions. 5 6 So I'm just really encouraged to see 7 that people like Vince have really followed through to 8 make this happen. I think, bringing up what Don said, 9 expanding that up to Circle, possibly next year up to

10 Eagle. That's what we need to do if we want to build 11 this on a larger scale. It needs to be done small, it 12 needs to be done really effectively, cost-effectively, 13 and it needs to be done with the word that you brought 14 up, which is respect. 15 16 All of the discussions that we had in 17 the meetings that is the commonality and that is the 18 foundation of the program. If we can teach people to 19 respect other people's ways of doing things and open 20 dialogue, then we'll be really successful. 21 22 So I'm really encouraged and I do want 23 to just fright now take a minute and thank Vince for 24 what he's doing to further this. He's been very 25 instrumental in keeping the fire going. 26 27 Also Katya for keeping the fire going. 28 I know she's really in big with OSM now as far as her 29 duties and may have to pull away from this a little bit 30 more, but we wouldn't be where we're at right now if 31 she had not taken this upon herself to keep pushing at 32 our Council level and also at the Board level. So I 33 really want to thank you for that, Katya. 34 35 MS. WESSELS: Thank you. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andrew. 38 39 MR. FIRMIN: After all that praise and 40 glory I think there's plenty of room for improvement on 41 this. 42 43 (Laughter) 44 45 MR. FIRMIN: These people are community 46 representatives. They are representing our community. 47 To have somebody in their report going around and 48 labeling people in here and terming them, appointing 49 them, I don't know what you want to call them, and then 50




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1 going around and writing perceiving me as an 2 enforcement employee. 3 4 Well, they're not an enforcement 5 officer and I had to question myself if the guy was 6 even on the clock or not or is he out there for 7 himself, who is this guy, what is he doing questioning 8 people. 9

10 There needs to be some -- it's a work 11 in progress and I've got some gripes about it and I can 12 talk to you off the record later or tell it on the 13 mountain right here on the record. I don't care. But 14 there is room for improvement on that and I don't want 15 to say it's a 100 percent success rate out of the gate 16 because I have some other gripes and a different view. 17 18 19 I've sat there and watched the same 20 thing and wondered who the heck is this guy. It looked 21 like he just rolled out of bed and was over there 22 pretending to be a French person, talking like Pepe Le 23 Pew, come on now, and then he's pretending to be a law 24 enforcement officer. 25 26 I mean give the guy a coat that says 27 community liaison with CATG, not U.S. Fish and Wildlife 28 Service. I don't know if that got lost or some people 29 just weren't paying attention. The handout is good to 30 have like that so you can say, here, this is what I'm 31 about. Here's what I'm here for so there is no 32 misrepresentation. 33 34 Or to run around and tell people -- the 35 moose meat mafia. Because I've had him go there and 36 walk up to people and tell people don't give that 37 person any moose meat and that was to an elder. I was 38 like, pew, you know. And then what did he do with the 39 meat? Go give it to where? I don't have no idea. 40 Threw it in his truck and drove away. There's an 41 oversight of that, so he just took meat from an elder, 42 which happens to be my family, and I know for a fact 43 that he had -- that's just not cool in my book. 44 45 Especially when you went out and shot 46 your own moose to hunt and the other people don't have 47 moose in their freezer and you're just telling people 48 that are willing to give meat away, you're telling 49 them, no, don't give it away, I'll take it. That's 50




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1 kind of wrong. 2 3 There is some bugs to work out of that 4 system there and maybe some more oversight because it 5 says he works seven days a week with no oversight. 6 Maybe he needs to check in every day with the boss. 7 That's just my opinion. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I appreciate

10 that, Andrew. I actually want to hear about some 11 things. Maybe we need to do it roundtable, when we go 12 into the roundtable discussion. I think it's good. 13 14 (Phone ringing) 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That would be 17 five bucks if you're in the Southeast. 18 19 MR. BASSICH: But I didn't answer it 20 like (yelling) what, I'm in a meeting. 21 22 (Laughter) 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Gob bless his 25 heart and soul, Lester. At any rate the bugs need to 26 be worked out, Andrew, somehow or another. Were you 27 aware of some of these? 28 29 MR. MATHEWS: No, I was not aware of 30 it, but there may have been others. I think it needs 31 to be aired out and then we need to work with CATG for 32 guidelines, but I think it needs to be discussed. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. Who am 35 I missing? Robert. 36 37 MR. WRIGHT: I agree with Andrew. This 38 would be something good for the roundtable that needs 39 to be discussed. Thank you. 40 41 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. Well, 42 Andy and I -- Andy probably was stronger about getting 43 this whole thing started. Was it 2009? That's 10 44 years ago. There was probably stuff brought up before 45 that, but we started putting it on the record and 46 putting it in our report that we want to see something 47 happen with hunter ethics. That report went to the 48 Board. 49 50




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1 You guys understand they're, what, 2 dependant on funding to make stuff happen? I feel like 3 we could probably take a follow-up letter to the Board 4 saying we support the program and working with the 5 agencies to do what they can. That keeps the momentum 6 going without worrying about funding because they have 7 these jobs and these are some of the things that we 8 think they should be working on. 9

10 MR. BASSICH: Sue. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah. 13 14 MR. BASSICH: Just a point of 15 clarification. Are we going to get into a roundtable 16 discussion now as a part of this or are are you doing 17 that as a separate part. How do you want to make that? 18 I'm just trying to hold back some of my thoughts and 19 comments until we are actually in..... 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We should do 22 it after the roundtable. 23 24 MR. BASSICH: Or during the roundtable. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We could 27 unless they tell me we're not taking action during that 28 time. But these are our meetings. I'm coming to learn 29 that if we want to do something, we should do it. 30 31 MR. BASSICH: Okay. I guess what I'm 32 asking for is just a clear, definitive point in this 33 discussion that we know that we're into the roundtable. 34 According to the agenda, it looks like Katya was going 35 to give her report and then we'd do a roundtable. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Right. 38 39 MR. BASSICH: So we're doing them 40 separate. That's what I'm trying to clarify. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, yeah. If 43 we want to do support and the type of support we talked 44 about was the agencies getting more involved. I think 45 we would have to either do that in an annual report or 46 do it in a support letter to the Board or both. 47 48 MR. BASSICH: Okay. 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 2 So I do have a question. Did the military people 3 respond to you guys? 4 5 MS. WESSELS: Yes, they did. Like I 6 said, we had this meeting right before the last Council 7 meeting. They were very receptive, they showed in 8 strong. There were like five people together, I think. 9

10 MR. MATHEWS: There was two from each 11 base. 12 13 MS. WESSELS: Yeah. And then they 14 followed up with emails just like we were not able to 15 follow through, but they were very supportive. They 16 were very receptive. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes, but what 19 I'm asking is -- first I'm going to ask, in the 20 audience, is any of the military people here that 21 participated? 22 23 (No comments) 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Zero. Okay. 26 So can they be contacted? I mean did anyone talk to 27 them about this roundtable? 28 29 MS. WESSELS: Yes. I emailed them the 30 information. Sometimes their emails -- sometimes when 31 you send them a group email it doesn't get through. I 32 can try to send them direct emails saying..... 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: No text? 35 People tend to text everything today. 36 37 MS. WESSELS: I do not know actually 38 personal numbers, so they're not phone numbers. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So it's 41 email, okay. 42 43 MS. WESSELS: Yeah. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 46 Council members, anything else. I guess we'll probably 47 have to move the chairs around and all the players sit 48 around like we did before. 49 50




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1 Okay. I was just given a message Evon 2 Peter would be really great on this roundtable 3 discussion for Arctic Village and he has to leave at 4 11:30. I would like to take a short break, five 5 minutes, and then I would like to have all the chairs 6 set up for Arctic Village and we'll go into a 7 roundtable with that. So five minutes. 8 9 (Off record)

10 11 (On record) 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Because of 14 some conflicts with some people, they have to leave, we 15 are taking up our village roundtable discussion early. 16 To start with I sat with most all of them here. Is 17 anyone missing? Oh, Sarah is in the back. Is Sarah 18 coming forward? 19 20 MS. JAMES: Yes. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Pippa. 23 24 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 25 This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. Would now be a good 26 time for me to explain to people what we're doing and 27 the need for speaking into a mic and stating their 28 name? 29 30 MR. BASSICH: Yes. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Probably so. 33 34 MS. KENNER: Thank you very much. The 35 people that are at the table are all giving comment on 36 Proposal WP20-49 that has to do with the Arctic Village 37 Sheep Management Area. We're asking that you speak 38 into a microphone when you're talking and before you 39 start speaking if you could please state your full name 40 and then the record will be clear that you're giving 41 comment and who gave the comment. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thanks, 44 Pippa. I guess I'm not as formal. Okay. If there's 45 anyone in the audience that feels that they're being 46 left out, please let Pippa or the coordinator know 47 because that's important also. 48 49 All right. I'm going to have the 50




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1 people that are at the table -- you met us. We'll 2 start here. Introduce yourselves. 3 4 MS. GARNETT: (In Gwich'in). My name 5 is Tonya Garnett from Arctic Village. I work for the 6 Native Village of Venetie Tribal Government as well as 7 a tribal member and I also work for Arctic Village 8 Council. 9

10 MR. HAWKALUK: I don't have a mic, but 11 I'll just lean over to this one. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: You're here 14 to listen, right? 15 16 MR. HAWKALUK: I am here to listen in. 17 Good morning. Nathan Hawkaluk, Deputy Refuge Manager 18 with the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. 19 20 MR. PETER: (In Gwich'in) from Arctic 21 Village. My name is Evon Peter. I live here in 22 Fairbanks. I'm a former chief from Arctic Village as 23 well. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: What do you 26 do in Fairbanks? I'm curious. 27 28 MR. PETER: I'm here as a tribal member 29 in my capacity today. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 32 Thank you. 33 34 MS. GEMMILL: Hi. I'm Margorie Gemmill. 35 I'm Chief of Native Village of Venetie Tribal 36 Government. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It was 39 explained to me that that is Arctic Village also. 40 41 MS. GEMMILL: Yes. So our membership 42 includes Arctic Village and Venetie. 43 44 MR. SMITH: My name is David Smith, 45 Arctic Village Second Chief. 46 47 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: David 48 participated in the hunter ed at the last workshop. 49 Thank you. 50




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1 MR. GILBERT: I was also there. My 2 name is Galen Gilbert. I am the current Chief of 3 Arctic Village. 4 5 MS. JAMES: My name is Sarah James (in 6 Gwich'in). My name is Sarah James. I'm from Arctic 7 Village. My father's name is Ezias and my mother's 8 name is Martha. Ezias from Birch Creek and Martha is 9 from Arctic Village. I am elder spokesperson for the

10 Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for Venetie and Arctic 11 Village. 12 13 MS. YATLIN: Hi. My name is Tiffany 14 Yatlin. I am the Tribal Administrator for the Arctic 15 Village Council and I am from Arctic Village. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: And I might 18 add, those of you who were in Arctic Village, I believe 19 it was 2006 or '07, Edward Sam -- this is your uncle. 20 21 MS. YATLIN: Yes, Edward Sam is my 22 uncle along with David Smith, Jr. That's our uncle. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. He 25 teased me afterward. He called me Madame Chair. He 26 would call me and give me sheep reports every year. 27 Okay. At the table up here we have..... 28 29 MR. BURCH: I'm Mark Burch with the 30 Department of Fish and Game and, as you might expect 31 being from the government, I'm here to mostly listen as 32 well. 33 34 MR. MULLIGAN: Ben Mulligan, Alaska 35 Department of Fish and Game. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Would you 38 guys tell us your titles. 39 40 MR. BURCH: My title is Special 41 Projects Coordinator. 42 43 MR. MULLIGAN: Deputy Commissioner to 44 the Department. 45 46 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Do you both 47 go to Federal Board meetings? 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That helps 50




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1 people understand. You are the liaison between the 2 Federal and the State. Okay. These two people. 3 4 All right. Let's just see where we're 5 at. Last night two-plus hours I think we chatted and I 6 think it was very helpful to understand the regulation 7 process for the people of Arctic Village. 8 9 Now I want to open it to you guys.

10 Let's continue on. Unless you want to go over some 11 things from last night. What I can say where we left 12 off was nobody had seen the proposals and it was just 13 provided to you. So we're seeing a missing link of 14 communication. I would like to say that Evon really 15 wrapped his head around the understanding of the Board 16 of Game proposal versus the Federal proposal. So maybe 17 you could start off there. 18 19 MS. YATLIN: Actually we wanted our 20 elder to start out and then our Chiefs, followed by the 21 technical group. 22 23 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 24 Sounds good. 25 26 MS. JAMES: I'm here as an elder from 27 Arctic and Venetie from our reservation of 1.8 million 28 acres, Native Village of Venetie Tribal Government. 29 There's over 1,000 members and we cover fish and 30 wildlife and managing our land for many, many years. 31 Ever since I can remember. 32 33 Ever since I can remember I know about 34 Red Sheep Creek because as a family we spend many 35 months, go into the mountains and gather food coming 36 back to the village for the winter. One of the very 37 special meat that we get is sheep and we make sure we 38 take care of it and bring it home and to share it not 39 only with Arctic Village but to our region and still 40 is. 41 42 My life, my family, as I was growing 43 up, they made about five trips that I know of. I've 44 got a lot of stories about Red Sheep Creek. I've been 45 taught very well about Red Sheep Creek. I got taught 46 very well about hunting sheep; where to go, where 47 they're feeding and how we could kill if it was healthy 48 or not. Those are taught from very beginning part of 49 my life. I was taught that because that was our way of 50




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1 life. 2 3 My mom is like very -- special 4 tradition food for her is sheep and there's many, many 5 stories we've got about sheep. Sheep takes a long time 6 to be a ram. So is trout. Those two are very special 7 in our life. Back in the bow and arrow day, skin hut 8 day, they don't even bring it in the front door. They 9 bring it from the back door. That's how honorable the

10 food is. 11 12 So I grew up that way and that's how I 13 teach my people. I have one son. He went sheep 14 hunting with me when he was nine years old, then he 15 went again when he was 21, and he went again later on. 16 So he loves sheep for food. I love it. It's our 17 special medicine. We've got to have it in our diet. 18 That's the way it feels. Subsistence food is like 19 that. So that's how it is. 20 21 They are very special sheep, the Red 22 Sheep Creek, because we are known for our red ink. Our 23 nation from way back, bow and arrow day, that's an area 24 they have a red mineral that they leak on. Due to that 25 they have a red streak on their back. That's very 26 special to us because red ink is sacred to us too 27 because we use it in many ways; for our decoration, for 28 our painting, all kinds of ways. 29 30 Due to the climate change, we lost part 31 of our red ink because 10 years or five years, I don't 32 know how many years ago, there was a lot of rain up 33 that way that one summer. I think mid-summer. Water 34 eroded some of the land where the red ink is, so our 35 river was red for three days. So we do have that red 36 ink in that valley and that's very sacred to us. 37 38 We're not talking about any Dall sheep 39 or sheep in general. We're talking about Red Sheep 40 Creek and they are different from other sheep. They 41 stay within their area too. Sheep do that. They don't 42 really migrate all over the place. They migrate 43 sometime because one came down to Arctic Village area. 44 45 46 One time I wasn't there. We went from 47 Arctic Village when I was very young. I can remember 48 correctly from 1950. We had to move because we had to 49 go to school. That was forced on us and that's why we 50




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1 lived in villages. We got colonized into villages. 2 We chose Arctic Village. Our people 3 chose way back then to survive. Caribou come through 4 there and fish is there year around, all those lakes. 5 That's one place that's good to get fish. We call it 6 Vashraii K'oo. That's the Arctic Village name for 7 Neets'aii Gwich'in. That means high banks. That's 8 where they gather fish. It still runs there when the 9 fish are on the move.

10 11 We only have clear water fish, which is 12 whitefish, sheefish, grayling, stuff like that. That's 13 one that comes out of that creek into East Fork and 14 East Fork run into Chandalar and Chandalar runs into 15 Yukon. So we're all connected one way or another. So 16 that's the reason they chose Arctic Village to be where 17 it's at so we can start school and so our kids won't be 18 taken away. 19 20 At that time we had to move to Fort 21 Yukon because we couldn't do the school on our own. 22 They tried many times. But they want us back, so we 23 came back 1955. So I remember that year we went up the 24 Red Sheep Creek for two months. Then I had to go to 25 boarding school. The next time we were up I had to fly 26 out of below Birch Creek -- I mean Red Sheep Creek. 27 I've got to fly out of there in order to get back to 28 boarding school. Life works like that for us. 29 30 I'm just trying to take a picture, tell 31 you a little bit picture of my life and how our life is 32 out there as a subsistence people living off our land 33 and our way of life of thinking. What is very 34 important to us. 35 36 After this, this Red Sheep Creek is 37 gone. It's going to be gone. It's not going to come 38 back. If we all want a ram, I think sheep is not going 39 to last very long. Us, we're happy with any sheep we 40 could get because we are not there for trophy or 41 anything like that. 42 43 The health of the land, we look at it 44 and we see how many tracks we see, how many red sheep 45 on the cliff, how used is the trail. Those things we 46 observe and monitor and tell us how we could hunt, what 47 we could hunt and all that kind of stuff. We 48 need to do that with our resource because after Alaska 49 I don't 50




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1 think there's any sheep that's protected like Red Sheep 2 Creek. 3 4 (In Gwich'in). I'm not talking for 5 myself. My son, he's 44 years old now, he loves sheep 6 meat because he grew up with it. I love sheep meat 7 because I grew up with it. My grandpa, Albert E. 8 Tritt, he spoke on this protection. I grew up with the 9 issue and now I'm an elder and all these people you see

10 here we've been protecting that area since 1989. 11 That's a long time. 12 13 I think we organized then because we do 14 share, so we include other villages. To have a 15 roundtable and to continue protecting it, I think that 16 needs to happen for our people and for the people from 17 the Outside. We're not only trying to separate 18 ourselves from everybody, we're just trying to keep the 19 world in a good way. 20 21 That's what was taught to us very well. 22 You're going to hear that from our leaders and our 23 people all the time because ever since I can remember 24 Arctic Village always share and educate people and they 25 still do. You know, even today we pay $10 a gallon for 26 gas. We still try to be healthy. It is a healthy life 27 in Arctic Village. It is a healthy environment. It's 28 a healthy Red Sheep Creek. That's what we try to 29 teach. The world is a good way, that we all can enjoy 30 it and keep it alive. 31 32 (In Gwich'in). It was an honor to talk 33 to you, everyone that is here. On behalf of my elders 34 who are not here, on behalf of the child that hasn't 35 born yet, I'm honored to share. 36 37 Thank you. 38 39 MR. SMITH: As the First Chief, I know 40 Evon Peter is on a tight schedule, so I'll let Evon 41 Peter, Former Chief of Arctic Village, say his speech 42 before mine. 43 44 MR. PETER: I guess I'm older too. 45 46 (Laughter) 47 48 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Hey, my motto 49 is old too quick. I was born too late. 50




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1 MR. PETER: I want to start by saying I 2 appreciate Sue, you meeting with our people yesterday 3 and to all the others. Like you said, it was the first 4 time for just me as a tribal member to start getting 5 exposed. As we got into our conversation, I realized a 6 lot of things about the process that's just not working 7 and the need for there to be a better system put into 8 place so we could have clarity about what we're talking 9 about in conversation with each other. I'm glad that

10 all the comments that we're making, as I understand, 11 will be a part of the official testimony so that it's 12 on the record with our comments. 13 14 Listening to our elder Sarah, Sarah 15 helped raise me up in Arctic Village as well as my 16 grandfather. From our youngest age, the stories around 17 (in Gwich'in) area up there and Red Sheep Creek are a 18 part of the legacy of our families. 19 20 Shitsuu Katherine Peter, (in Gwich'in) 21 my late grandmother Katherine Peter, she wrote a book 22 too even in our language called Neets'aii Gwindaii, 23 Living in the Chandalar Country. If you all get a 24 chance to read that, maybe you'd see some of how her 25 whole introduction, because she had an arranged 26 marriage to my grandfather, was going up and spending 27 all that time up in the Red Sheep Creek area. 28 29 It talks about -- some of that story is 30 just from her perspective as another Dinjii Zhuh, 31 another Native person, but then getting married into my 32 grandfather's area, where I grew up there with him as 33 well. Hearing from Sarah it just -- you know, Arctic 34 Village, Vashraii K'oo, our community is a real special 35 place, it's a sacred place. 36 37 All of our people that come from there 38 are really loving people, humble and with big hearts 39 and a lot of rich, important knowledge has been carried 40 and kept like a coal fire, elders and our people, and 41 that important knowledge is being handed down and 42 shared. I think our people have a lot to offer. So I 43 just was so happy that we got to hear some of that 44 story from our elder Sarah as we begin this. 45 46 So a few points that I did want to make 47 that I think are really important because some -- in 48 her story, you know, she mentioned boarding schools, 49 which was a part of kind of that history related to 50




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1 colonization and assimilation that impacted our people. 2 Just like many of our people, like my mother, was sent 3 away for seven years away from the community and forced 4 only to speak English and that had an impact. 5 6 At the same time like my grandmother 7 and grandfather, that I mentioned earlier, in their 8 younger years they weren't citizens of the United 9 States. They couldn't own land. They couldn't even

10 engage in these sorts of processes like that we're now 11 finally getting to a point of being able to engage in. 12 13 At this point though I think it's 14 really important for us to recognize that we have three 15 sovereigns essentially at work in Alaska and those 16 three sovereigns are the Federal government, the State 17 government and our tribal governments. As I began 18 looking at the letter that was sent out to Arctic 19 Village, I think it was addressed to our council or our 20 chief, and it refers to just Arctic Village residents, 21 but that doesn't really adhere to the frameworks of 22 those three government-to-government relationships 23 between our tribe, the State and the Federal 24 government. 25 26 For example, our tribal government 27 wouldn't just go out into Fairbanks and say, hey, are 28 you an Alaska citizen or resident. I want you to speak 29 on behalf of all the other Alaskans. You know, we'd go 30 up to a government level and speak with the government 31 as a whole to have that government-to-government 32 relationship. So I think that the system, as far as 33 how we come together and communicate with each other, 34 needs to recognize those sovereigns and that 35 government-to-government relationship needs to be a 36 part of the process moving forward. 37 38 That's why I love that Sarah started so 39 that you all understand too that our people really 40 practice coming from a good place in our heart and in 41 our mind when we try to engage and build relationships. 42 A part of that is really slowing down 43 processes like this so that we all collectively as 44 Alaskans who are living here find a way to a 45 relationship that's really respecting and honoring each 46 other and that there's real equity. Because of this 47 history and where we're at, we're still on the path 48 together, I think, and understanding each other, our 49 different culture and world views and how we can work 50




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1 together here in Alaska for our future. 2 3 So anyway that was one point is just 4 that I think it's important that we -- and it's one of 5 the strongest rationales why just me speaking on behalf 6 of myself as a tribal member and Alaskan citizen as 7 well. I think it's important to follow the 8 recommendation of the Office of Subsistence Management 9 and oppose the WP20-49 proposal as it sits today. One

10 of the major points is that it just didn't adhere to a 11 government-to-government relationship and conversation. 12 13 The other point that came up with 14 Sarah, and I mentioned it too a little bit, is there 15 are some areas that are truly sacred, they have 16 spiritual and cultural significance to our people and 17 our communities. It's really hard to express in words 18 the feeling even that I feel right now inside of me as 19 I think back to that area and all those stories and 20 what I grew up with to these areas. For those purposes 21 I think it's important for us to recognize the 22 significance of those areas, like Red Sheep Creek area, 23 to our people and understand that importance to it. 24 25 As Sarah said, our people out of 26 necessity had to manage the resources surrounding our 27 community well and that was a matter of just our 28 survival. If we had more time, like Sarah said, 29 there's so many stories that we have from our community 30 about how our young people, even starting at like six 31 years old were in a training. 32 33 Just like now we have K through 12 34 school, but a long time ago our people had a rigorous 35 training in place because you had to understand the 36 land, the animals, the stars, constellation systems, 37 how to use them to navigate on the land if you get 38 caught out there and might not know where you're at. 39 There was a lot of training and stories that went along 40 with the way that we manage and relate to the land and 41 the resources because our survival depended upon it for 42 our people. 43 44 A part of that is, as Sarah said, for 45 our people through the local observations that she 46 referred to of the sheep we know the counts up there 47 are low right now and I spent some time after meeting 48 with Sue to kind of look back on some of the Federal 49 surveys that were done and they match up with our 50




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1 people's local observation that the counts are low up 2 there. So I think it's really important for those 3 reasons as well to have good protection there of this 4 area so that we can move towards having a good sheep 5 population. 6 7 The last piece that I'll speak to that 8 I think is really important is, one, to reiterate 9 opposition to the WP20-49 and think it would be really

10 good and important for you all as a RAC to oppose that 11 Federal proposal -- right, do I..... 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes, you got 14 it. 15 16 MR. PETER: And then also on the State 17 Board of Game proposal to also oppose the section 18 that's related to the Arctic Village Sheep Management 19 Area. The one piece of that Board of Game proposal 20 that I think, just me speaking for myself again, that 21 might be something I think we have a shared concern on 22 is again tied to the viability of the sheep population 23 up there and one part of that proposal that's not about 24 Arctic Village Sheep Management Area is related to that 25 recommendation to go from three sheep to one ram in the 26 RS-595 area that excluded Arctic Village Sheep 27 Management Area. 28 29 That portion of the recommendation of 30 reducing from three sheep to one ram is something that 31 just me personally I can understand why the RAC had an 32 interest in that just in order to protect the 33 populations of the sheep up there. So that would be the 34 only part of that proposal that to me makes sense to 35 potentially move forward. I think aside from that that 36 Board of Game proposal should also not be supported or 37 recommend to not be supported by the RAC as well. We'd 38 really appreciate that. 39 40 Sue mentioned yesterday when she met 41 with us that our village and our tribe has been wanting 42 to try to build an actual conversation, so I do think 43 that if you all decide to set up a working group so we 44 can build an ongoing conversation around Red Sheep 45 Creek, that makes sense and I'm going to have some 46 tribal members so we can learn from each other and 47 build a relationship with one another. 48 49 Then we don't find ourselves every two 50




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1 or three years or whatever that cycle is coming back to 2 the same place of trying to have this conversation 3 because it takes a lot of time, energy and resources 4 for all of our people to come together and then meet 5 and as well as you all as volunteers. 6 7 I think if we had an ongoing 8 conversation and we could avoid that extra work. Also 9 this stuff is really confusing and it takes a bit of

10 time for anybody I think to understand it and so maybe 11 as a part of that working group we could begin thinking 12 about ways to institute processes that really adhere to 13 that recognition of the three sovereigns and how we 14 relate to each other in making sure that there's viable 15 popultions of species that we depend on. 16 17 Those are just my thoughts right now. 18 Mahsi'. 19 20 MR. GILBERT: Hi. I'm Galen Gilbert, 21 First Chief of Arctic Village. You know, the people of 22 Arctic Village are very nice people and I'm talking 23 about us. When we know that something is wrong, you 24 know, we're going to fight, you know, good or bad. I 25 just want to say that first because, you know, we are 26 nice people. 27 28 Our tribe has always maintained the 29 belief to protect the area for our subsistence use and 30 because of our spiritual and historical connections to 31 that area. My grandfather Trimble gave a testimony 32 about this importance to us. My grandpa Trimble 33 Gilbert, he's also from Arctic Village, he's 84 years 34 old and he has a lot of stories and experiences with 35 sheep. He gave a testimony, a forgot where or when, 36 but it was a strong testimony about the importance to 37 us. 38 39 We have stories and legends that we 40 still hold strong today, you know, that we still want 41 to protect of that area because it's a historical site 42 that we would want to keep forever for our generations 43 to come. 44 45 You know, we haven't been in this 46 conversation and, you know, I think that is really 47 wrong because this is part of ours. We had no 48 consultations. This process needs to slow down and 49 include us and I don't think this should be rushed. I 50




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1 am testifying against this proposal because, again, you 2 know, it's a historical site. 3 4 On behalf of our council and people, we 5 would like to thank Donald Woodruff for speaking up to 6 protect the area based on the ANILCA Title VII, 7 inclusion of the spiritual and cultural significance 8 and the definition of subsistence lifestyle. 9

10 I just want to end this note by saying 11 thank you everybody for being here. I am here for 12 speaking for my people. They elected me Chief and I'm 13 their voice. 14 15 Thank you very much. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Can I 18 interrupt for one second. I swear I'm starting to be 19 an elder of forgetfulness. I want to recognize Rhonda 20 Pitka. She's on the Federal Board. She is present 21 here and she served with us as a Council member. So I 22 didn't want to forget. Sorry, Rhonda. Nice to see you 23 again. 24 25 All right. We'll move along. 26 27 Thank you. 28 29 MR. SMITH: My name is David Smith, 30 resident of Arctic Village, current Second Chief. I'm 31 currently 22 years old and I have yet to experience my 32 first sheep hunt, although I have experienced eating 33 sheep and I can tell you it's something I haven't 34 forgot and it's on my list to obtain. 35 36 The sheep population is low. The 37 people in the village have seen it. Your biology shows 38 it. The population is low. There are many other areas 39 in Alaska that provide Dall sheep. I don't see why 40 opening the Red Sheep area would benefit if the numbers 41 are already low. My Uncle Edward said that when you 42 send in people to go and kill off all the mature rams, 43 that leaves the young sheep to breed and that messes up 44 their whole cycle. 45 46 So if you take out all the full mature 47 sheep and leave nothing but the young, the young sheep 48 to breed, then they're not doing what they're meant to 49 do. They might be breeding at a young age or not 50




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1 developing the right animal. 2 3 Yeah, I go by what the elders say, what 4 my uncle says. My uncle has hunted countless times. 5 When he tells me it's not the right time to go, then 6 it's not the right time to go. It was something I was 7 looking forward to doing this year, but it's been 8 postponed until a later event. 9

10 I'm against this proposal to even 11 access the Red Sheep Creek area. I understand 12 everybody's love and wanting to go hunt sheep, but 13 there's plenty of other places to go hunt it. Alaska 14 is a vast state. Who knows, it might be different 15 within 10 years. The population might go up and it 16 might decline. It's not for us to say. It's not for 17 us to go in there and hunt them extinct. 18 19 It's something that our people have 20 lived off of as far as I can remember. I've heard 21 countless stories from people going up. People younger 22 than me have gone up and hunted. It kind of sparks -- 23 I feel upset in a way that personally I can't go up 24 there and see as many sheep as my uncle has explained 25 that should be up there. And it upsets him to have to 26 talk about it in that way and not be able to take his 27 great-nephew or his nephews or even his brothers out to 28 go hunt sheep. 29 30 It's something that you do every year, 31 but when you can't do it for one year, it sets of your 32 -- it sets off the balance, you know. What if you 33 don't hunt moose in the fall and you always plan to go 34 get sheep, but there's no sheep and you didn't get a 35 moose either. That leaves your freezer kind of barren. 36 37 38 Some people don't eat caribou. Some 39 people don't eat moose, so some people like to eat 40 sheep. My uncle, for instance, really can't eat 41 caribou or moose, but he can eat sheep. When sheep is 42 the only thing you can eat and the only thing you can 43 hunt, but you can't go hunt it because there's nothing 44 around. I wish you guys could see how upset he was, 45 you know. Maybe it would have changed your aspect on 46 it. 47 48 I don't got very much to say after 49 that. 50




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1 Thank you. 2 3 MS. GEMMILL: Hello again. Chief of 4 Native Village of Venetie Tribal Government. I just 5 want to say thank you for allowing us to speak today. 6 Since about 2005 I've been aware of this issue. It 7 keeps coming up over and over I don't know how many 8 times. 9

10 Like they said, we need -- I would like 11 some government-to-government relationship on this 12 issue. So the past, you know, we'd get a letter a 13 month before, a couple weeks before, sometimes a few 14 days before, and they're like, oh, this proposal is 15 back on the table. So we have to round up our councils 16 and our elders. It's a tiring story. 17 18 I'm really glad we got to talk and we 19 need to understand each other. I just hope you guys 20 really consider rescinding the proposal to open Red 21 Sheep Creek Area because it means a lot to our people. 22 23 I just want to say -- I can't 24 officially say Native Village of Venetie opposes 25 because I haven't conferred with my council about it. 26 Then the other issue is Arctic Village Council asked 27 for a government-to-government meeting before because 28 we're asking for due process and they want the 29 government-to-government next month after this meeting 30 today, which doesn't really make sense. 31 32 I would just like to ask if we could 33 rescind this proposal and work together so that we 34 could benefit all of us, our tribe and our people and 35 all Alaskans, for the sheep, for the future of our 36 children. 37 38 Thank you. 39 40 MS. YATLIN: Again, my name is Tiffany 41 Yatlin. I'm the tribal administrator for the Arctic 42 Village Council. I have been working for Arctic 43 Village Council for about 11 years now. 44 45 I guess I'll go right into it. Or 46 maybe I'll tell a little story about Edward Sam again 47 since Sue keeps bringing him up and he is our uncle. I 48 have a 23-month-old son. He'll be two years old next 49 month. He was 14 days old and I brought him back to 50




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1 Arctic Village and my Uncle Edward got to meet him and 2 then he took off and came back a day later and he said 3 can I name your son. I said go ahead, give him a 4 Gwich'in name. So he named him shohzhin and it's a 5 full ram of a sheep. I said I'm curious, how come 6 you're giving him that name, and he said I can tell 7 he's going to be a fast runner. And he is already a 8 fast runner. 9

10 (Laughter) 11 12 MS. YATLIN: Like David said, Edward 13 Sam was really upset. I've known Edward all my life. 14 He's been hunting chief for 26-plus years and he is my 15 godfather/uncle. And I asked him how come he never 16 went sheep hunting this past year and he looked at me 17 and he looked away and he sat down and he said, well, I 18 pay for the hunt out of my own pocket and he saves 19 throughout the whole year and he said I'm not going to 20 go this year because there is no sheep. So I feel that 21 my board is speaking on behalf of keeping it closed. 22 23 Like Margorie Gemmill mentioned, I 24 didn't see the invite to meet with the Council. I 25 didn't get it in the fax machine. I got it from Ben 26 Stevens and Carrie. So it was just all last minute, so 27 I got contacted with -- correct me his name. 28 29 MR. STEPHENSON: Zach. 30 31 MS. YATLIN: No. 32 33 MR. STEPHENSON: Orville. 34 35 MS. YATLIN: Yeah. So I contacted him 36 and I asked him to have a tribal consultation with my 37 board. He told me not until November. So I just want 38 to say thanks to Carrie and Ben for pushing me to get 39 my council here and here we are. I only had about 40 three days to get everybody together. So I would like 41 to have better communication on this behalf. 42 Especially I don't like last-minute things because it's 43 pretty hard to get everybody here with only one 44 airline. 45 46 Thank you for giving us this 47 opportunity to speak. 48 49 MS. GARNETT: Thank you, Sue, for 50




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1 arranging this roundtable so that we can discuss our 2 concerns on this issue. And thank you to Donald for 3 speaking up for the protection. I think it was last 4 year or the year before. 5 6 MR. WOODRUFF: April before last. 7 8 MS. GARNETT: April before last. 9

10 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, at the 11 Federal Board meeting. 12 13 MS. GARNETT: Uh-huh. Mahsi'. I want 14 to make sure all of our testimony here is on the 15 official record as testimonies. All of us here are 16 tribal members. We're all here as representing Arctic 17 Village and Venetie. This is just a small handful of 18 us. 19 There are many more people who would love to be here to 20 speak on this issue and we are lacking their voices, 21 their input and their knowledge. 22 23 It's because this process is being 24 rushed. This is a foreign process to us. We don't 25 understand this. We're having to learn really fast. 26 We're getting a crash course. Along the way the 27 consultation isn't -- their consultation is 28 non-existent. 29 30 In order for us to go back -- we have 31 to go back to educate our people on this process and 32 what this proposal is and we have to meet with them and 33 then we have to meet with you guys, so that way we can 34 take a formal stance on this. On the record we are 35 against this proposal WP20-49 to open Red Sheep Creek. 36 37 That place is important to us. We have 38 stories, we have history. We have a lot of evidence to 39 show that we have a strong spiritual and cultural 40 connection of significance to that land, to that area 41 and to the sheep. Our subsistence would be impacted by 42 opening that area. Like we said, the sheep population 43 is low. Your numbers tell us that. It might be a 44 little higher compared to other areas, but we're not 45 talking about other areas. We're talking about the Red 46 Sheep Creek here. 47 48 So if we're not hunting this year, then 49 why are we going to look at opening it up for other 50




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1 people to hunt? Because we go by our traditional 2 subsistence rules and laws that we've done since the 3 beginning of time that's been passed down onto us. 4 That shows us that the population is low, so we leave 5 them alone until the population is right for us to hunt 6 again. 7 8 Our Traditional Chief Trimble Gilbert 9 gave the original testimony that helped to protect this

10 area and I encourage you guys to read that testimony. 11 He wants the place to be protected forever. There's 12 other communities involved. I believe in the area 13 there's Arctic Village, Venetie, Chalkyitsik, Fort 14 Yukon and Kaktovik. I don't see them being involved in 15 this process and our consultations happening with them. 16 17 There's a lot of traditional knowledge 18 and local observation information missing in any of 19 these documents and proposals. We're constantly 20 having to work to ensure our survival all around. Not 21 only on this issue, but constantly having to work to 22 protect our people, our subsistence and our 23 spirituality and this takes a lot of time, resources 24 and energy. We ask that you guys help us to represent 25 us. 26 27 So a lot of times like we're saying we 28 need adequate consultation and advanced notice on 29 things and we're not getting that. Somewhere the ball 30 is being dropped. Like our Chief said, 31 we are happy and humble people. That's all we ask is 32 just to let us be. 33 34 Again, we're against the Proposal 35 WP20-49. Mahsi'. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I want 38 to thank all you guys. Wonderful. What I heard was 39 everyone speaking, except Evon, to the Federal 40 proposal, which is to open it to other users. What I'm 41 concerned about is the Board of Game proposal where 42 there's a three sheep limit and Evon spoke to that. I 43 would like to see some discussion. 44 45 As I said to you guys when we were 46 talking last night, it concerns me that the State has 47 on the books this three sheep limit and that chunk 48 that's just north of the Arctic Village Sheep 49 Management Area. I would like to see -- the Board of 50




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1 Game meets in March and I would like to see support or 2 just hear how you feel. Do you want to leave that on 3 the books? 4 5 That's the reason -- one of the reasons 6 was if that -- as I told you guys last night, the Board 7 of Game, what's on their book, affects other hunters 8 and it's also what they call subsistence opportunity 9 and everybody qualifies under the State law and under

10 the Federal law it's rural. 11 12 When it came to -- that proposal makes 13 everything more restrictive including if for some 14 reason down the road that was open to other users in 15 the Arctic Village Sheep Management Area, that area 16 would be on a permit if that proposal passed. That 17 would be a draw and be limited. 18 19 So that was my reason for seeing that 20 be put in to the State Board of Game. If you guys can 21 talk to that. We understand. I think it's clear. We 22 understand you don't want any non-qualified Federal 23 subsistence hunters and that was WP20-49. So I think 24 you're loud and clear on that and I hear it. And the 25 need for a working group in this, being able to talk to 26 each other, it just is so important to me. 27 28 It is complicated, as you said. Even 29 attorneys probably have a hard time understanding some 30 of this stuff. So let's just touch the button and 31 talk. 32 33 MR. PETER: This is Evon again. I 34 think it's important that it's on record that we also 35 oppose the Board of Game proposal. The portions that 36 include anything related to the Arctic Village Sheep 37 Management Area. I oppose it I should say because I'm 38 just speaking for myself. 39 40 My concern is that -- and this is my 41 concern all along that has been expressed by others 42 that have spoken, is that this whole process is like 43 super rushed and we've not been consulted prior, so 44 we're trying to digest and understand what all this 45 really means and what it relates to and correlates to 46 as far as the State regulation goes because that's the 47 Board of Game proposal. 48 49 So as it stands right now, I want to 50




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1 make sure that it's clear on the record that I'm 2 opposing the Board of Game proposal as it stands. I 3 don't know how this body engages or interacts with the 4 Board of Game procedurally, but maybe if this RAC 5 firmly votes to oppose the Federal proposal. 6 7 Then you could vote to recommend 8 opposition to the Board of Game proposal as it stands 9 currently and then submit a new recommendation that

10 just specifies the desire to make that change that you 11 all were interested in around going from three sheep to 12 one ram, that could be a separate motion. 13 14 I don't know how your body functions 15 organizationally, but that would be my recommendation 16 just so that there's clarity of opposing the current 17 Board of Game proposal and then recommending just that 18 limited area that you're talking about. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Procedurally 21 we can get help with that here. It's amending it and 22 all that good stuff, which we don't to spend a lot of 23 time on. 24 25 MR. PETER: The other thought too is I 26 think it's also important that -- and it's been 27 iterated a few times here that our tribal governments 28 haven't had the chance even to convene to have a 29 meeting to also digest this. 30 31 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: See, they 32 don't meet until March. 33 34 MR. PETER: It would be preliminary for 35 me or any of us maybe to speak specifically to a tribal 36 position on any of this because we have yet to have 37 those meetings and have a conversation. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So that's 40 where the working group would really come -- because 41 you could start working on it right away next week or a 42 couple weeks from now and keep trying to talk about it. 43 Just speak out. 44 45 MR. FIRMIN: Sue. We probably meet 46 again before the Board of Game meeting, so we could 47 reconvene and have this meeting again before then as 48 well. 49 50




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1 MS. GARNETT: I just wanted to echo 2 Evon's recommendations that we really can't take a 3 stand on that issue, on that Board of Game proposal, 4 because we haven't had enough time to discuss it and 5 talk to our people back home. We usually don't do 6 anything without having input from the people. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andrew just 9 brought up a good point. We're meeting the week before

10 the Board of Game starts. Oh, boy. Procedure. 11 12 MS. MAAS: Lisa Maas for the record. 13 The Board of Game comments are due February 21st. So 14 if this Council wants to submit a written comment, 15 those comments are due by February 21st. I think 16 hypothetically if you make an action at your next 17 meeting in March and someone is physically there to 18 present it or I think in the past we may have like 19 given it to George Pappas to present. I'm just letting 20 you know procedurally. 21 22 Thanks. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. I think 25 that's the way it would have to happen, that somebody 26 would have to be there. Yes. 27 28 MR. MULLIGAN: Ben Mulligan, Fish and 29 Game. Even if the deadline is February 21st, you still 30 can submit RCs during the meeting. That would put 31 your..... 32 33 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: RC is? 34 35 MR. MULLIGAN: Record copy. So if you 36 want to comment during the Board of Game/Board of Fish 37 meeting, you can submit comments during the meeting 38 that are official, just as it is for public comment, 39 ahead of time. So just because you're not meeting 40 until the week before you could develop your position 41 and then during the meeting submit that as an RC and 42 the Board will recognize that. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: And then you 45 could be present. Is it 15 or 20 minutes? 46 47 MR. MULLIGAN: Fifteen. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: For Councils, 50




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1 yeah. Andy. This is roundtable, so speak up. 2 3 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I'd just like 4 a little clarification. You mentioned this issue 5 involves the State of Alaska, the Federal government 6 and the tribal sovereignty you have. I'm wondering 7 what are the procedures for those discussions to happen 8 between the three. It doesn't appear to me that's 9 being addressed here.

10 11 Is it? What is the procedure for the 12 State of Alaska on an issue like this to consult with 13 and work with a sovereign tribal entity within the law 14 and is it being done? 15 16 MR. MULLIGAN: Andy, through the Chair. 17 So under State law there's no recognition of tribal 18 sovereignty, but we do reach out like we do with 19 everybody with the RACs, with ACs, with groups and we 20 can and we do meet with them. There's no special set 21 process like there is -- I think Mr. Doolittle will 22 talk about for the Federal Subsistence Board where they 23 do have tribal consultation. I will leave that to him. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I need to 26 have another senior moment. I've never met you I don't 27 think. I'll have you introduce yourself. I'm so 28 sorry. 29 30 MR. DOOLITTLE: Through the Chair. My 31 name for the record is Tom Doolittle. I've been the 32 Acting Assistant Regional Director for the Office of 33 Subsistence Management for the last year and a half. 34 Before then the Deputy. So it's great to be at Eastern 35 Interior. I've been trying to spread myself around to 36 a number of RACs. 37 38 So, Sue, you're famous in my arena as 39 far as tenure within Regional Advisory Councils and 40 this RAC is, so I'm just very happy to be here. 41 42 One of the things, as you know, is that 43 we all in government are process-based and we won't 44 have our Federal Board meeting until the week of April 45 20th, so we do have plenty of time. Orville did bring 46 up the consultation process. We do kind of lump a lot 47 of consultations together relative to our Federal 48 program that were occurring in the last few weeks. 49 50




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1 Many times what we try to do is we get 2 to see whether tribes want to have more consultation at 3 that time. The good thing is that we have plenty of 4 time within the process, both for the issues that are 5 working independently with the State of Alaska and of 6 course working through the Federal process. 7 8 So this was brought up by Orville to me 9 in a Leadership Team meeting a few weeks ago and I just

10 said, well, we have time to at least go through 11 independent consultation with tribal groups that need 12 the time to digest the issues to come up with formal 13 positions. So there's that aspect of more 14 government-to-government aspect that does come to be 15 part and parcel of the process. 16 17 The other thing is that once we 18 actually get to the Board meeting, obviously minds 19 change, positions change or positions need to be 20 reinforced, and one of the things that does start every 21 Regulatory Board meeting is a tribal consultation 22 session. It's really important to have formed opinions 23 from tribal leaders during that forum to bring to the 24 Board because over the next few days those are when the 25 actual decisions are made. 26 27 So I want to let you know that the 28 program has addressed the issue, has heard Arctic 29 Village and the other villages as well, to involve into 30 a more engaged process. If there's anything that we 31 can do as far as the Staff, we're more than willing to 32 help. And our commitment is not just a policy, but 33 also the responsibilities of the Department of Interior 34 with consultation to tribal governments. It's really 35 what we do as well. 36 37 So I want to make sure that I affirm 38 that process with the tribal leaders and with the 39 constituents that are here. Again, working with Ben 40 and Mark with the State of Alaska, our working 41 relationship and working through problems is just that. 42 We know exactly what our responsibilities to our user 43 groups are and our open dialogue and collegial working 44 relationship to address issues such as Red Sheep Creek 45 is part and parcel of our normal process as well. 46 47 I remember in 2015 I came on detail. I 48 was working on a Forest Service project at that time 49 and then I was called into Anchorage to work for six 50




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1 weeks straight on one proposal and it was Red Sheep 2 Creek. So I looked at the anthropological and 3 biological information and I can tell you that it's one 4 of the more thorough and probably well researched 5 issues that we have that's been decadal in its length. 6 Even when I was sitting out as a Refuge Manager, as a 7 Deputy Manager out at Yukon Delta Refuge back in the 8 day, I always remember hearing about Red Sheep Creek. 9

10 So it's there. I understand the issues 11 that people have brought up and I'm more than willing 12 to address any questions that you may have. 13 14 Thank you. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Go ahead. 17 18 MR. PETER: I appreciate the question 19 very much on tribal sovereignty and it's interesting 20 here that you're saying that the State does not 21 recognize tribal sovereignty because I'm looking at the 22 Department of Law, Office of Attorney General, opinion 23 from the State of Alaska that says that on the legal 24 status of tribal governments in Alaska that the State 25 of Alaska recognizes that tribes do exist in Alaska, 26 that Alaska tribes are governments with inherent 27 sovereignty and, three, that the areas where the scope 28 of that sovereignty is clear, is laid out. 29 30 This also correlates back to kind of 31 some of the story I said earlier in the comments is 32 that, you know, I'm going back to my grandparents' 33 generation to raise me, so to me it wasn't that long 34 ago where they weren't even recognized as citizens, so 35 they didn't have the right to be at the table, so there 36 weren't processes in place for how they can engage in 37 kind of these State or Federal, legal or territorial at 38 that time, and U.S. Federal processes. So there's just 39 been a big effort and lift for our people in 40 communities to have official recognition so we can 41 build processes. 42 43 I think that's where we're at right 44 now. I think the State of Alaska does recognize our 45 tribes as sovereigns, but there aren't processes in 46 place yet. So those processes I think do need to be 47 built so that we can shift the dynamic to have more 48 equality in a conversation and recognize those 49 governments more officially in the processes. 50




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1 That will help us kind of avoid, I 2 think, some of the confusion that does exist in the 3 processes currently and kind of why, as many people 4 have said, we kind of recur just around this one issue 5 as an example every couple of years. We're trying to 6 re-educate or re-understand where we're at with the 7 processes. 8 9 So I do think that there's a larger

10 systemic issue and conversation that does need to move 11 forward so that we can have more formalized processes 12 between the Federal government and the State government 13 and the tribal governments. So I do really appreciate 14 that question. 15 16 MR. BASSICH: Can I follow up. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Uh-huh 19 (affirmative). 20 21 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I was just 22 kind of confused and I've never heard any official 23 statement in the process. The other thing that I've 24 noticed in listening this morning is I'm hearing two 25 different things. I'm hearing from the people that are 26 being affected to please slow down the process, that 27 there isn't enough time, and then I'm hearing from the 28 Federal agencies and possibly the State, that there is 29 plenty of time. 30 31 So what it brings to my mind is that 32 there's two very different opinions here on how much 33 time is needed to address an issue that affects these 34 people very culturally, very spiritually and for long 35 term. That's another issue we have to try and work 36 out, I think. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy, if I 39 could. I thought what they meant was if you want to 40 take up these two proposals, we still could before next 41 meeting. But as far as the working group, that's what 42 -- we need time to start a working group and it really 43 happened because I read all this stuff here at the end 44 of that proposal and I wrote notes down. How many 45 times we were asked to have a working group. It went 46 way back to 1989. 47 48 I've been on this thing 18 years and 49 when it comes up, we should have a working group, we 50




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1 should have a way to work with Arctic Village. These 2 things are -- like she said, the ball has been dropped. 3 It isn't happening. 4 5 At any rate, that's the two timelines. 6 The timeline that I heard at the meeting last night was 7 you don't have to pass something right away. We work 8 through it and you guys are part of it. 9

10 MR. PETER: Just to clarify. I think 11 that it is inherent on this Committee or Council, the 12 RAC, to put forward a vote to oppose the Federal 13 proposal because that essentially, in my understanding, 14 would then be a very strong recommendation to the 15 Federal Board to kill that proposal as it stands. 16 17 Also to oppose the recommendation for 18 the Board of Game proposal currently because I do think 19 that the process just needs to be slowed down. I mean 20 there's not going to be from my perspective between now 21 and February enough time to bring everyone up to speed 22 on a conversation and especially because I think the 23 questions you're bringing up are big questions that I 24 think could be really helpful not only for our tribe 25 and this RAC but across the State as far as how do we 26 build these government-to-government relationships and 27 processes so that we are really -- I'm hearing the 28 voices of all the people that are really concerned and 29 then having a more open conversation with each other. 30 31 What I heard from Sue yesterday though 32 is that this RAC really specifically just has this 33 concern, the largest concern of the RAC was around this 34 three sheep to one ram. If that's the specific thing 35 that the RAC is really concerned about, that could be a 36 separate conversation from the opposition of these two 37 current proposals, which I think is really important 38 for this RAC to make that decision on. 39 40 From my perspective, as I mentioned to 41 Sue yesterday, that would be like putting forward a 42 leaf to the tribal government and to the people to say, 43 look, we understand you weren't included in this 44 process. The letter that was sent to the tribe was 45 August 19th and it was really recognizing only Arctic 46 Village citizens or residents not as tribal 47 governments, so there wasn't a due process in place for 48 the government-to-government relationships. 49 50




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1 So I think that giving the space and 2 time to have the conversations so that we do it well 3 and we do it right and we build something that could 4 really be meaningful and significant for all of us I 5 think is really important. 6 7 With that, I just really do appreciate 8 everyone creating this space and time for this 9 conversation and appreciate the leadership of our tribe

10 and our elders for inviting me to get plugged in as a 11 tribal member. So thank you all. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Did you have 14 something? 15 16 MR. SIMON: Thank you. For the record, 17 Jim Simon. I'm a consultant with the Tanana Chiefs 18 Conference. I just wanted to bring -- based on what 19 I've heard from the people from Arctic Village who are 20 discussing this, I wanted to remind you that this Board 21 of Game proposal that's being addressed was submitted 22 by you. It's my understanding from the spring meeting 23 that Mark Burch from the Alaska Department of Fish and 24 Game wrote that proposal for you. 25 26 There seems to be opposition and 27 concerns that there was no -- you know, we've had 30 28 years now of talking about establishing a working 29 group, but that probably should happen before 30 submitting a proposal like the Eastern Interior RAC 31 submitted to the Board of Game to be addressed in 32 March. 33 34 So one option would be that you could 35 pull your own proposal in order to convene the working 36 group in order to have better discussions before your 37 proposal that is proposing to dramatically decrease the 38 bag limit for subsistence in order to provide drawing 39 permit hunt opportunities for non-subsistence uses in 40 the Arctic Village Sheep Management Area. 41 42 Thank you. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I think you 45 might be misunderstanding us totally. The proposal 46 that we put forth makes the seasons and bag limits 47 less. There's less opportunity and I think -- we can 48 go through this. 49 50




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1 MR. SIMON: Yeah, thank you for that. 2 I mean it's my understanding that the proposal seeks to 3 reduce the three sheep bag limit to one ram as well as 4 to establish a new resident and non-resident drawing 5 permit hunt. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Right. And I 8 hear them, that they want that pulled from it is what 9 I'm hearing. There's time to talk about that portion 10 of it if we can get a working group together. That's 11 how I see it. 12 13 I'm taking all the blame for writing 14 that proposal because I got these guys to do it. My 15 whole thing was I'm glad we wrote it because it made 16 this happen. Otherwise this wouldn't be happening and 17 we'd still have no communication like we should have. 18 So I'm glad it happened. I don't want to confuse it 19 because we -- and me pushing them to put that forward 20 is -- if that ever did open on the Federal side, there 21 would be something in place. That's all I was trying 22 to do when I brought this forward. 23 24 The other thing was the education. The 25 education thing that was passed in 2012 to have hunter 26 education for Arctic Village and land status and all 27 that. That's not in place because there's no opening. 28 So there's nothing in place and I'd like to see it in 29 place. I think I convinced them that's why I wanted to 30 do it. We will continue on and we'll see how they feel 31 later. 32 33 There's two different things here. 34 35 Donald. 36 37 MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you, Madame Chair. 38 I have just a few things to say. One, I want to thank 39 the people of Arctic Village for recognizing my stance 40 at the Federal Subsistence Board meeting. I did throw 41 the Council under the table on that one and I just felt 42 that it was time to sort of step out of the mold and 43 speak out a little bit. 44 45 I want to encourage the people of 46 Arctic Village to participate in this tribal 47 consultation because it comes before the Federal 48 Subsistence Board what you guys say. Orville will 49 translate all that discussion to the Federal 50




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1 Subsistence Board. That's an important thing. Even 2 though it's after this meeting, I would encourage you 3 guys to participate with this tribal consultation 4 process. 5 6 The other thing is that Arctic Village 7 -- I don't know if you guys had a resource manager. 8 That's a really valuable person to have even if you 9 have to add a staff person because they're the one that

10 will see these kind of proposals coming up in the 11 literature and can make you all aware of it. Otherwise 12 it just sort of overwhelms you with paperwork and I can 13 understand how that is. 14 15 If Arctic Village wants to put their 16 own proposal in in the future, you can work with our 17 Council Coordinator and format your own proposal that 18 would resolve these issues of it coming up every two or 19 three years. For one thing, I've got to commend the 20 State for being tenacious about their job. That's 21 their job and they're tenacious about it. They're 22 going to keep going on this and we're going to see it 23 every few years until they're happy. 24 25 But if we could make everyone happy and 26 work together on this, it won't keep coming up because 27 we're not happy if we have to see it every few years 28 either. 29 30 Thank you, Madame Chair. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I just want 33 to say one thing. All Donald did -- he didn't throw us 34 under the bus. All he did was he was supposed to take 35 the RAC hat off and then go to the table and speak for 36 himself. Just procedure stuff again. 37 38 MR. MULLIGAN: Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 First, thank you guys for your testimony. Really 40 appreciate it. Took a lot of notes. I will say the 41 State introduced the Proposal WP20-49 with the idea of 42 having this issue keep coming up and working with the 43 RAC was to thread this needle of -- because before 44 always the concern was if we open up to non-Federally 45 qualified users, too many people would come in. 46 47 So if you diminish the ability -- 48 because, for us, there's no -- you can't establish the 49 rural preference and hence the bifurcation between 50




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1 State and Federal management. So everyone could come 2 in even under the subsistence, but if we diminish that 3 under the State, you'd have that possibility of not 4 having maybe that rush coming in and adressing those 5 concerns. 6 7 Ao we're not necessarily married to the 8 proposal. We were married to the idea of trying to 9 come up with an idea of opening it up but then having

10 the RAC's proposal of taking that harvest ability down 11 a level. So if it did pass and the Board of Game 12 proposal passed, you wouldn't see that high level that 13 everyone was worried about at the time. 14 15 We're more than happy to work in the 16 working group format to figure out what would exactly 17 work for everyone when it would be able to come up. So 18 we'll take another serious look at our proposal and if 19 it looks like we need to pull it, we will pull it for 20 the sake of working together to find a final solution 21 so every wildlife cycle we're not bringing this back 22 up. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Donald. 25 26 MR. WOODRUFF: One follow-up question. 27 At the Federal Subsistence Board meeting they addressed 28 pulling proposals and once they get in the system you 29 can't pull. I mean they can just sort of gloss over it 30 and reject it, but once it's in the system we can't 31 pull it. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Go ahead. 34 35 MR. FIRMIN: A couple things I just 36 wanted to point out for people just to fill in the 37 dots. It's good to see everybody from Arctic to come 38 in here and speak up for what they feel strongly about. 39 Whether we're throwing ourselves under the bus or not, 40 we've been fighting against a lot of these proposals 41 for the 12 years I've been sitting here. 42 43 I think it's good to remind that in the 44 analysis here that they -- I guess it's because OSM 45 opposes it and made the analysis that it would be 46 interesting to see the actual proposal if they're -- I 47 mean basically they shot themselves in the foot with 48 the proposal because it says they don't know if 49 Federally qualified users will be impacted or not. 50




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1 That's kind of if you don't know, then why do it. You 2 should have checked that first. 3 4 There's plenty of opposition not only 5 between -- I think some people don't realize that not 6 only there's Arctic Village Tribal Government and the 7 Venetie Tribal Government and then the Venetie Village 8 Tribal Government, so you actually have three separate 9 entities to consult with. Not to mention the other

10 tribes that are in there with Chalkyitsik, Kaktovik and 11 Fort Yukon that also could be consulted or be part of 12 this discussion as well, not only in Arctic Village. 13 14 And the other thing is the part of it 15 it says right in the analysis you can see where it's 16 pretty much a paperless society, a lot of it. Other 17 than hunting season, who goes there and hands out 18 permits or where do you go to get them. You can't even 19 get a consultation process let alone get a permit, let 20 alone have a post office or mail or a high-speed 21 internet to go send them back. 22 23 I work in an office with internet and 24 all that stuff and I can hardly get my payroll done 25 half the time just fighting the technical battles of 26 working and trying to get stuff done on a day-to-day 27 basis, then having that experience working in a tribal 28 office and a municipal office. There's only so many 29 people in that office to do the work day by day. 30 31 There's lots of interesting stuff in 32 the staff analysis and here I do notice, like as was 33 pointed out by the Arctic Village folks, the actual 34 biology hasn't changed any in the last years. I like 35 how they note -- I'm guessing this is Edward Salmon 36 here when they said there was one reported no 37 transportation. That's because he actually walked to 38 Red Sheep Creek and back. That's no joke. He walked 39 to Venetie quicker than me and David floated there with 40 a canoe that time. He beat us there on foot and we 41 were paddling from Arctic to Venetie. He's quite the 42 man. 43 44 But there is lots of things in here 45 that I could see why this proposal will most likely 46 fail. I'm pretty sure we would oppose this Federal 47 proposal and then the Board of Game proposal, if we did 48 pass it, trying to go from memory, it was for a good 49 reason and the reason that it was put forward was 50




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1 basically to force the State to open the hunter ethics. 2 Right? 3 4 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: To write it. 5 6 MR. FIRMIN: To write it. It also says 7 in our minutes in here that the State was asked to come 8 up with suggestions or a proposal to resolve this 9 issue. Instead they just want to open the doors back

10 up, which doesn't make any sense or obviously that fell 11 through the books too. Apparently nobody was 12 listening. But people change seats, people move on. 13 Maybe you guys didn't know about it. But basically 14 that was to restrict outside users to the State season, 15 which is open to everybody, and your guys's, the 16 resident season, will still remain the same. So that 17 was the reason behind it all if I remember correctly. 18 19 We've got more discussion about it. 20 We've got some time. It's not just my opinion. I just 21 wanted to throw in my two cents. 22 23 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We talked 24 about that last night. I told them how important it is 25 that I think the State should write that hunter 26 education or whatever they called it. 27 28 MR. BASSICH: Sue. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 31 32 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I guess I 33 have a quick comment and then maybe some more 34 clarification from the State. It seems to me one of 35 the most important aspects on the Federal side of this 36 issue is the cultural and spiritual aspect of it. 37 There's lots documenting that going back 15, 20 years 38 or whatever. 39 40 But on the State side when the Board of 41 Game looks at proposals, are they only looking at 42 biological aspects because we're treating everybody the 43 same or do they take into consideration cultural 44 practices, important areas, historic areas. What is 45 the official stance from the State on that? Because if 46 everyone is considered a subsistence user and treated 47 equally, how do you protect cultural practices and 48 sacred cultural places and practices within the state? 49 50




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1 MR. MULLIGAN: Through the Chair, Andy. 2 I can't give you the official one. There's a list of 3 things the Board of Game considers outside of the 4 biological and societial stuff is a part of that. We, 5 as the Department, brings the biological to them and 6 then they bring in the other considerations because 7 it's a very public process. People coming to testify, 8 bringing their own perspectives. 9

10 It's not necessarily, you know, can the 11 population take it. It's this is why this is important 12 to me, this is why I use the resource. I'd have to 13 look in my statute book to give you the official 14 listing beyond what the biological is that the Board is 15 charged with looking at. 16 17 MR. BASSICH: I appreciate that, but I 18 guess what I'm concerned about is how is that weighted. 19 We've had many discussions at this table over the years 20 about TEK, traditional ecological knowledge, and we've 21 all recognized that it is very important, that it 22 should have a very important role in decision-making 23 process and regulatory process. 24 25 Yet there's still really nothing 26 formalized that I can see on any level, Federal or 27 State, giving it some kind of weighted -- giving it 28 value and weighting it fairly heavy in the discussion. 29 What I've always been concerned about is that these 30 traditional knowledges, these cultural practices that 31 we hear from the elders have a very real possibility of 32 going extinct because we don't give them the weight 33 that they have. 34 35 So the Federal program was designed to 36 protect people in rural areas and their cultural 37 practices. So we have it in the Federal program, it's 38 given some weight, but how does the State do it? So I 39 would love to hear maybe a follow up at some other 40 meeting on specifically how does the State weigh that 41 and how does the Board of Game and the Board of Fish 42 use that information in their regulatory process. How 43 do they weight it, how do they value it. There needs 44 to be some kind of definition so people know and so 45 that it carries some weight so these things that are 46 truly Alaskan ways of living survive into the future. 47 48 MR. MULLIGAN: We can follow up with 49 the Boards on that. I'd hate to speak for them. In 50




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1 some ways they are our governing body when it comes to 2 fish and wildlife management, but I will definitely 3 pass that along and see if we can get an official 4 response of how they weigh in those other factors 5 besides the biological. 6 7 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I have a

10 person in the audience. 11 12 MS. MCDAVID: Hi, this is Brooke 13 McDavid with ADF&G, Division of Subsistence. I just 14 want to give a real brief response to Andy. At the 15 State level and the State process, there are customary 16 and traditional use determinations for various species 17 and various areas of the state. I'm sorry I don't have 18 my book with me to be able to let you know if there is 19 a C&T for sheep in the unit which you guys are 20 discussing, but that's something that I can find out. 21 22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: There is. We 23 know there is. 24 25 MS. MCDAVID: Okay. So there is. Also 26 the Board of Game can come up with an ANS for that 27 region, which perhaps someone here knows off the top of 28 their head if an ANS has been established, but that's 29 one way that the State..... 30 31 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Amount needed 32 for subsistence. 33 34 MS. MCDAVID: Yes, sorry. An amount 35 necessary for subsistence. That's one way among other 36 ways that the Board of Game can try to determine if 37 subsistence needs are being met by people that have a 38 customary..... 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Donald, did 41 you have something? 42 43 MR. WOODRUFF: Yeah. When I was at the 44 Federal Subsistence Board meeting, I opened my comments 45 asking them how much value they put on TEK, traditional 46 ecological knowledge. Off the record I was told it was 47 50 percent. In my closing comments I said that I 48 thought the TEK was undervalued and that it was an 49 important thing for our Council. 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: This was to 2 the State. 3 4 MR. WOODRUFF: Yeah, I know, but I'm 5 just saying what the Feds thought. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Wait. Go 8 back. You asked a Federal person the 50 percent or the 9 State person?

10 11 MR. WOODRUFF: No, the Federal. At the 12 Federal Subsistence Board meeting that you sent me to. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: They said TEK 15 was 50 percent. 16 17 MR. WOODRUFF: The State didn't say it. 18 The Federal Subsistence Board said that. I'm just 19 giving Andy some values that we're not just talking 20 about abstract. 21 22 MR. BASSICH: Just to follow up. I 23 appreciate your comment there, but that's still only a 24 number of amounts necessary. That's food. That 25 doesn't take into account the cultural and spiritual 26 aspects or historical use of a piece of land. That's 27 the question I'm trying to bring up. That's the 28 problem that we have. 29 30 Everything is based on numbers, 31 everything is based on different studies that way, but 32 how are these programs into the future going to protect 33 the spiritual and cultural aspects because that's a 34 pretty tough thing to quantify on a graph. It seems to 35 me everything is based on graphs and surveys and use, 36 numbers. So that's the topic I'm trying to bring up 37 here. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I want to 40 add, Andy, when it started, the whole subsistence 41 program, and the State had it, they had -- I think it 42 was an eight-point criteria. Is that still on the 43 books? I think that's what they go by is the 44 eight-point criteria. I don't know if it changed since 45 I last saw it. 46 47 MS. MCDAVID: Madame Chair. The 48 eight-point criteria is still in place and those eight 49 criteria are what is used to establish whether or not a 50




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1 customary and traditional use exists. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. We are 4 getting close to lunch. Are there any other things in 5 your head that you -- yeah, Andrew. 6 7 MR. FIRMIN: I just wanted to add one 8 thing for the cultural or the spiritual significance. 9 For me, it's similar to asking like can I go hunting in

10 the Grand Canyon or sheep hunting on El Capitan or is 11 it okay to bump an elk off in front of Old Faithful? 12 You know what I mean? People are like, no, that's a 13 National Historic Monument. Well, that's a National 14 Monument to some people. Well, it's vice versa the 15 other way around. Just like you wouldn't allow me to 16 go hunting on Mt. Rushmore, so why switch it around the 17 other way. I don't know. Maybe there are hunting 18 seasons. I'm not sure. I mean for me it's comparable. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We actually 21 have to deal with that some places. Where you're 22 hunting in a park, you have subsistence use and there's 23 -- I call them hikey-climbies, but eco-tourists running 24 around and somebody might be ended up shooting an 25 animal right in front of these people. So it's kind of 26 like what you're talking about in a way. It occurs 27 here actually. 28 29 Okay. I really appreciate you guys 30 very much. I'm hoping that the Federal and State 31 people see the need, that we continue a working group 32 and even before these two Board meetings that are 33 coming up. Then you guys will -- hopefully our Staff 34 will be talking to you and we'll figure things out, how 35 things can be done. Maybe I better come up and see 36 Edward and calm him down. 37 38 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Free meat. 39 40 (Laughter) 41 42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay, I will 43 bring you some sheep meat, I promise. Unless my senior 44 moment takes over again. Yes, I really appreciate you 45 guys because as sheep is near and dear to you all, it 46 is to me also. I took my little boy hunting when he 47 was eight years old, sheep hunting, and he's a sheep 48 hunter today. 49 50




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Page

75

1 Are you guys going to be around for the 2 afternoon? 3

4 (Nodding) 5

6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, good. So

7 if we have questions, we can bring you up. Okay. All

8 right. Great. Thanks so much everyone. We'll say --

9 you want an hour and a half? Okay, we'll come back at

10 1:30. 11

12 (Off record) 13

14 (On record) 15

16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We're

17 relaxing the rules quite a bit from the agenda. We're

18 on the Domino Effect on Page 47. Lisa Maas. 19

20 MS. MAAS: Thank you, Madame Chair.

21 Members of the Council. Again, my name is Lisa Maas.

22 I'm a wildlife biologist in the Office of Subsistence

23 Management. So this Domino Effect presentation I was

24 hoping to present to you at your March meeting, but

25 then it hadn't gone through the proper channels of

26 review. So now it has been reviewed by everyone that

27 needs to review it at OSM. 28

29 This is responding to your annual

30 report topic concerning the domino effect and it's

31 basically trying to clarify your request for the annual

32 report and make sure if we do this research we're

33 really presenting the information you really want to be

34 presented. 35

36 Again, this presentation begins on Page

37 47. I'm just going to walk through these tables and

38 figures here. So again most of the data on hunters,

39 resident communities, for game species and locations

40 across Alaska exist in Federal and State databases.

41 These hunting locations are primarily just specific to

42 the sub-unit level and of course only reflect reported

43 harvest. 44

45 So, again, while these databases likely

46 contain the information needed to examine the domino

47 effect, we're seeing further clarification before a

48 useful report could be generated such as the timeframe

49 you guys are looking at. Are you looking at the past 50




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1 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. 2 3 Any specific species, you know, 4 focusing on moose or caribou or every single species 5 possible, any units or regions to prioritize. I mean 6 it's easy to say you're interested in the entire state, 7 but if certain areas are prioritized, then we focus on 8 those first and then work down from there. 9

10 Also getting at the domino effect just 11 pertaining to the displacement of non-local and 12 non-Federally qualified hunters or only local Federally 13 qualified subsistence users. So what user groups are 14 you primarily interested with. 15 16 So, again, I just primarily used Unit 17 20E caribou as an example and compiled the data in a 18 couple different ways to try and give the Council 19 examples of what this data can look like. So then 20 hopefully you can give us feedback on, yes, this is 21 what we're looking for or, no, we actually meant this. 22 23 24 So if you look at the table on Page 48, 25 this shows the number of caribou hunters in Unit 20E by 26 resident community over a 21-year period. While the 27 Unit 20E caribou hunters lived in 148 different 28 communities, only the first 29 communities are 29 displayed in this table for demonstration purposes. 30 31 So this table is super quick to 32 generate and probably contains the information the 33 Council is seeking, but it's kind of overwhelming to 34 look at and really interpret. Again, the data is 35 there, but whether looking at that is a little too 36 overwhelming to really get at what the Council is 37 looking for. 38 39 If you turn to the next page, Page 49, 40 these graphs are much easier to interpret and detect 41 trends, but don't provide the level of detail the 42 Council may be seeking, namely specific resident 43 communities. If the Council is most concerned about 44 Federally qualified subsistence users being 45 increasingly displaced by non-subsistence users over 46 time, then graphs like these might be the most useful 47 way to present the data. 48 49 Moving on, there's a series of maps and 50




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1 these are another way to display the data. This 2 provides a visual representation of the number of 3 hunters living in various communities that hunted 4 caribou in Unit 20E over a 20-year period and then 5 divided into five-year increments. 6 7 So these maps require a lot more time 8 to prepare than a table, but provide an easier, faster 9 way to discern the primary communities and regions of

10 the state where hunters for a particular species and 11 subunit live. While large trends can be detected in 12 these maps, such as the number of non-residents hunting 13 caribou in Unit 20E increased over 20 years. Of course 14 the finer scale trends can be lost in maps like this. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Quick 17 question. It looks like there's red on top of the 18 green on the first map. So it looks like the same 19 amount to me. 20 21 MS. MAAS: The green is just denoting 22 20E. That's where the hunt area is that we're talking 23 about. The size of the circle corresponds to the 24 number of hunters from that community. 25 26 Moving on to the next couple figures on 27 Page 54 are just to demonstrate the power and 28 limitations of the data. The figures on Page 54 29 display the number and relative percentages of 30 Federally-qualified subsistence and non-Federally 31 qualified moose hunters in Unit 20E. 32 33 The figure on the left shows that the 34 number of moose hunters in Unit 20E has substantially 35 increased. Almost doubled in 20 years. However, the 36 number of Federally-qualified subsistence users has 37 remained fairly constant. If you go to the figure on 38 the right-hand side showing the percentages, this again 39 demonstrates the relative percentages of 40 Federally-qualified subsistence moose hunters in Unit 41 20E compared to total moose hunters in Unit 20E has 42 declined over 20 years. 43 44 These figures suggest that while 45 subsistence moose hunters in Unit 20E may not have been 46 displaced to other units since their number remains 47 fairly consistent, they're likely experiencing much 48 more competition from non-Federally qualified users, 49 which may be affecting the quality and success of their 50




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1 hunts. 2 3 The last figures on Page 55 depict 4 caribou hunters in Unit 23 and show very few Federally 5 qualified subsistence users from 1998 to 2016. The 6 number of Federally qualified subsistence users 7 increased sharply in 2017, which is when the State 8 began requiring registration permits to hunt caribou in 9 Unit 23.

10 11 These figures demonstrate that some 12 apparent trends may be due to changes in reporting 13 requirements rather than the domino effect. The number 14 in relative percentage of non-Federally qualified users 15 decreased in 2016 when the Board closed all Federal use 16 in 23 to caribou hunting except by Federally qualified 17 subsistence users. 18 19 The Board closed portions of Unit 23 in 20 regulatory year 2017-18, which likely explains the 21 relatively low number of non-Federally qualified users 22 in 2017. This suggests that rather than subsistence 23 users being displaced by non-local hunters, 24 non-Federally qualified caribou hunters may have been 25 displaced to other units because of the closure. 26 27 Again, this is just kind of to try and 28 demonstrate how some of the apparent domino effect 29 might be actually due to change in the reporting 30 requirements or closures that are displayed in the 31 graph but have different explanations than just being 32 displaced to other units. 33 34 So that's just the presentation in a 35 nutshell to try and give the Council an idea of what is 36 possible in displaying the data, what the data we have 37 is capable of and trying to get clarification from the 38 Council on what you're really looking for with the 39 domino effect data. 40 41 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 42 43 MR. BASSICH: Thank you, Madame Chair. 44 Thank you, Lisa, for doing this. From my perspective, 45 there's a couple things I want to comment on. First, I 46 appreciate the work done on this. In my view, probably 47 the most useful is the graphs with the circles and the 48 different communities. 49 50




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1 One of the things that maybe isn't real 2 clear in the domino effect is that oftentimes what 3 happens is it's not just -- let's just say for example 4 people from Anchorage, non-Federally qualified people 5 coming to Unit 20E to hunt caribou or moose. It's also 6 that they move into say the area around Glennallen and 7 Gulkona and then those people feel the pressure and 8 they leave their home region and then move into say 20E 9 to hunt moose and caribou.

10 11 I don't know how you can really graph 12 that or how you can even track that, but that's more of 13 what the phenomenon is in my perspective and the 14 impacts that it has. So it's not just rural versus 15 non-rural or Federally qualified versus non-Federally 16 qualified. It's more a matter of how people are moving 17 to the next closest region when they're feeling the 18 pressure and then putting the pressure on that region 19 and those people move into the next closest region 20 where they feel successful. 21 22 From my observation, what I find really 23 interesting, is how many people are coming up from 24 Southeast Alaska in the Wrangell, Juneau area, which 25 seems like an awful far way to go just to go hunt a 26 moose or a caribou. I'm not judging that. It's just 27 something that seems to be a pretty marked increase in 28 about the last five years. I don't quite understand 29 why. Maybe there's been closures there or maybe just 30 people are willing to travel farther to go hunt now. 31 32 From the perspective of people who live 33 out in the Bush, there's a thing called Bush economics. 34 You just don't go very far or you try and minimize the 35 cost of harvesting that resource. That's part of the 36 problem with what's going on in some of the rural 37 areas, is people just, A, they can't afford to go any 38 farther and they just don't have access to go any 39 farther when there's more pressure being put on them. 40 41 I guess just to summarize for me, I 42 like the circle one. I think that kind of gets to the 43 issue a little bit more, but it doesn't fully address 44 -- it addresses the Federally qualified versus 45 non-Federally qualified, but it doesn't address the way 46 -- say people from Anchorage might even go to Fairbanks 47 and they're just displacing other people that are in 48 that same group of Federally or non-Federally 49 qualified, but it doesn't really display how one 50




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1 movement to an area displaces those people to another 2 area and then those people move. 3 4 I'm hoping I'm kind of clear on what 5 I'm saying there. Are you able to follow what I'm 6 saying? 7 8 MS. MAAS: Yeah. So I mean this is -- 9 if you give us specific information like we're

10 concerned about people from Anchorage going to 11 Glennallen and then people in Glennallen going to 12 Eagle, I mean I can do the same thing for Unit 13 or 13 the Glennallen area and see over time if there's been 14 an increased number of people from Anchorage or 15 Fairbanks, outside areas coming into the Glennallen 16 hunt and then just looking at that cascade and effects 17 to this. 18 19 MR. BASSICH: Lisa, I think from my 20 perspective we could create requests that you could 21 stay busy on for the remainder of your career studying 22 this phenomenon. I think the important thing for the 23 Federal Subsistence Board and the Board of Game to 24 consider ist aht this is a phenomenon that's happening 25 because of population increase, better methods of 26 travel, access. 27 28 That's what's causing this issue and 29 it's an issue that needs to be recognize and it may in 30 the future be something that there needs to be 31 regulatory processes on when there are low abundance of 32 a species in an area and keeping it for more localized 33 harvest. That's my concern. 34 35 I don't think we need a statewide 36 analysis of it. All we need to do is demonstrate that 37 this is a phenomenon that's happening and at least have 38 that database there so that it's recognized that this 39 is a phenomenon that's happening so that in the future 40 if there's a problem, you don't have to take the time 41 to gather that information to present to the two 42 Boards. That's my main concern with it. 43 44 We're not going to do anything to stop 45 it. It's just the way Alaska is developing as 46 populations grow and as transportation and methods for 47 transportation change, but it is impacting -- since 48 we're in this body, which is a Federal subsistence 49 protection and trying to help people who live in rural 50




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1 areas, this is an impact that's happening too. 2 3 So I would hate to see OSM get wrapped 4 around the axle and feel like they have to do a full 5 statewide analysis. It's more a matter of just 6 demonstrating that this is a phenomenon, it has having 7 impacts to rural people and to Federally qualified 8 people. It's not necessarily -- the real difficulty 9 here is it's not necessarily just Federally qualified

10 people being displaced by non-Federally qualified 11 people. It crosses over into both of those, right. So 12 it's not just rural versus non-rural. 13 14 Let's just say my example. Anchorage 15 displaces Glennallen, let's say. Well, those people 16 are Federally qualified people under the programs here. 17 Then those people move up, so it looks like, oh, 18 there's not a problem because Federally qualified 19 people are just hunting in Federally qualified areas. 20 Do you understand what I'm saying? That's what the 21 issue is. 22 23 So it's hard to put definitions on it. 24 The importance in my mind is just demonstrating that it 25 is a phenomenon that's happening that's impacting 26 people at the end of the domino effect that have no 27 place else to go. That's the whole point that I was 28 trying to bring up through this discussion. 29 30 Thank you, Madame Chair. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else. 33 34 Donald. 35 36 MR. WOODRUFF: Yeah, I know this is one 37 thing that you have started, Andy, and I wanted to ask 38 you what is the timeline do you think is valuable? 39 Twenty years or 10 years? Because there's no sense 40 going back to the '80s, you know. From my experience 41 on the river this year, I met some people from Juneau, 42 okay. They had airboats or whatever kind of huge boat 43 they had. Money is not an issue for them because 44 they're living in a huge economic base, whereas us it's 45 a big issue if we have to travel hundreds of miles to 46 get our food. 47 48 MR. BASSICH: I think you just brought 49 up the point that I was trying to make. You just 50




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1 reinforced the point I was trying to make in my points 2 that I was making. As far as the timeline, going to 3 that perspective, I've noticed the big change has been 4 about the last 10 to 15 years. 5 6 I don't think you need to go further 7 back than that. the big change has been about the last 8 10 to 15 years. I've seen the really big change in the 9 last less than 10 years or seven years is where I've

10 seen the biggest change. Maybe I was just more 11 sensitive to it then because this became apparent to me 12 and I was maybe looking for it. That may be a cause and 13 effect, but I'd say Limited to no more than 15 years 14 back. but don't create a huge workload for yourselves 15 over this. I don't think that's necessary. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andrew. 18 19 MR. FIRMIN: You could probably get a 20 PhD studying that. Some of it might be related to 21 price of fuel too. Different from 99 cents a gallon to 22 seven, eight dollars a gallon. Limits me on where I go 23 anyway. 24 25 MR. KOEHLER: Yeah, I think the 26 difficulty that you're probably finding in this is 27 there's so many different variables from economic to 28 legal, regulatory variables. It's going to be very 29 difficult to be able to track in that way. There's so 30 many different areas that you have to find, so good 31 luck. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else. 34 35 (No comments) 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Just hearing 38 what you're saying, Andy, and what you're trying to get 39 at, the only thing that I could see that would give you 40 some information more is like a survey. You'd just 41 have to ask questions to people and say, hey, have you 42 changed your hunting habits because of overcrowding and 43 see if somebody from Glennallen decided to go up to 44 20E. That would be done pretty easily, I think. Just 45 a though. 46 47 Anyone else. Bill. 48 49 MR. GLANZ: Yes, that's what that 50




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1 Amanda Pope was doing in Circle this year. She was 2 asking people where they're from, where they're going 3 and she would note if they harvested or didn't harvest, 4 resident or non-resident. They had the right idea. It 5 was Tanana Chiefs doing that. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Was that TCC 8 who did that? 9

10 MR. GLANZ: I believe that's who Amanda 11 works for. She sent that report here. 12 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: CATG. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, CATG. 16 17 MR. GLANZ: Okay, CATG. I didn't know 18 which one she was working for. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 21 Anyone else. 22 23 (No comments) 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you for 26 that report. Next on the agenda is a discussion of 27 hunter ed initiative, but one of the players is the 28 Director of Fish and Game and he's at a meeting and 29 he'd like to participate. He can be here at 3:00, so 30 we're going to have that at 3:00. 31 32 We'll move on to the 805(c) report 33 information update, which is the Council Coordinator. 34 Zach is just typing away over here. 35 36 MR. STEVENSON: Thank you, Madame 37 Chair. Through the Chair, I'd like to draw folks' 38 attention to Page 56 of your meeting book. The top of 39 the page you'll see the Department of Interior crest to 40 the right, the U.S. Department of Agriculture logo and 41 on Page 56 you'll find the 805(c) report which is 42 provided to the Council in alignment with Section 43 805(c) of the Alaska National Interest Lands 44 Conservation Act. 45 46 This report provides an update to the 47 Council following the meeting of the Federal 48 Subsistence Board. In this case that meeting was held 49 on April 15th-18, 2019. In that meeting, the Board 50




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1 addressed proposed changes to subsistence fish and 2 shellfish regulations. The letter itself identified 3 actions taken on proposals affecting residents of the 4 Eastern Interior Region. The letter addresses 5 Fisheries Proposals 19-02, 19-06, 19-15, 19-05, 19-07 6 and 19-16. 7 8 If there are any further questions 9 regarding that letter, I'd be more than happy to

10 address those. That letter again is featured on Pages 11 56-57 of your meeting book. 12 13 Thank you, Madame Chair. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any 16 questions. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Zach, that's 21 a report on the Yukon/Northern area proposals on Page 22 59 and 60? Is that was the 805(c) report was? 23 24 MR. STEVENSON: Through the Chair. The 25 attachment on Pages 59 and 60 of the meeting book, as 26 you stated, provides more detail on the Yukon/Northern 27 area proposals. Again, those are proposals on Page 59 28 FP19-01 and it provides a little bit more detail on a 29 proposal in which there is a deviation from or action 30 taken that is different from what was requested by the 31 Council and that detail helps to provide a little bit 32 more explanation as to why that was taken. 33 34 In particular, the Board differed from 35 the Councils' recommendation to oppose FP19-01 to allow 36 the use of gillnets and to rescind net depth 37 restrictions in the Yukon River subdistricts 4B and 4C 38 and adopted it with a modification presented by the 39 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Board member. The 40 Board's action is discussed in the enclosed report 41 again provided on Pages 59 and 60 of your meeting book. 42 43 Thank you, Madame Chair. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any 46 questions. 47 48 (No comments) 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Going 2 into new business, wildlife proposals. The first one 3 is WP20-48, revise season and harvest limits for 4 caribou in 20F, 20E and 25C. 5 6 MS. MAAS: Thank you, Madame Chair. I 7 just want to verify. The last agenda I had had a 2019 8 first. Has that changed? 9

10 MR. STEVENSON: Through the Chair, 11 Lisa. The updated draft agenda is this document here. 12 Do you have a copy of that in front of you? The first 13 wildlife proposal on Page 2 of the updated draft agenda 14 under Item 10, new business, would be Regional Wildlife 15 Proposal 20-48, revise season and harvest limits for 16 caribou in 20F, 20E and 25C. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: You were on 19 the other agenda. 20 21 MS. MAAS: Okay. Yeah, well it just 22 keeps changing. All right. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: You've got to 25 follow along. We're bouncing all over the place. 26 27 MS. MAAS: So thanks, Madame Chair. 28 Again for the record my name is Lisa Maas and I'll be 29 presenting a summary of the analysis for Wildlife 30 Proposal WP20-48, which begins on Page 62 of your 31 meeting books. 32 33 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Can I 34 interrupt. If there's anyone that wants to testify on 35 these, you need to fill out that yellow card. Okay, 36 Lisa, go ahead. 37 38 MS. MAAS: WP20-48 was submitted by the 39 Bureau of Land Management, Eastern Interior Field 40 Office and requests alignment of Federal and State 41 regulations for the Fortymile Caribou Herd and 42 expanding the delegated authority of the BLM Eastern 43 Interior Field Office manager. 44 45 Specifically, WP20-48 requests 46 increasing the harvest limit for caribou in Units 20E, 47 25C, and a portion of Unit 20F from one caribou to up 48 to three caribou, changing the opening date for the 49 fall season from August 10th to August 1st, as well as 50




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1 the opening date for the winter season from November 2 1st to October 21st. 3 4 The proposal also requests delegated 5 authority to the Federal in-season manager to set sex 6 restrictions in all three units and delegating 7 authority to modify harvest limits and season dates in 8 Unit 20F. The Federal manager, who was also the 9 proponent of this proposal, already has this Authority

10 and Units 20E and 25C. 11 12 The BLM Eastern Interior Field Office 13 states that Federal regulations are currently more 14 restrictive than State regulations and that their 15 intent is to align Federal and State regulations to 16 increase subsistence opportunity and to reduce 17 regulatory complexity and user confusion. Delegating 18 additional authority would provide the flexibility and 19 responsiveness needed to manage the rapidly increasing 20 Fortymile Caribou Herd. 21 22 Caribou regulations in Unit 20E, 25C 23 and 20F east of the Dalton Highway and south of the 24 Yukon River, which I will hereafter refer to as Unit 25 20F southeast, target the Fortymile Caribou Herd. 26 State and Federal regulations for the Fortymile Herd 27 have generally followed recommendations from the 28 Fortymile Caribou Herd Harvest Management Coalition and 29 its management plans. 30 31 The Harvest Management Coalition has 32 representatives from State Fish and Game Advisory 33 Committees, the Eastern Interior Council, the Yukon 34 government and First Nations. Federal and State agency 35 Staff provide technical support and both the Federal 36 Subsistence Board and the Board of Game have endorsed 37 the Coalition Management Plans. 38 39 In 2018 the Board of Game liberalized 40 the State's codified regulations for the Fortymile Herd 41 to increase in-season management flexibility resulting 42 in Federal regulations becoming more restrictive than 43 State regulations. 44 45 The BLM Eastern Interior Field Office 46 also submitted Wildlife Special Action WSA 19-06, which 47 closely mirrors this proposal, for the 2019-20 48 regulatory year. BLM represented their intent to 49 submit WSA 19-06 as well as this proposal to the 50




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1 Eastern Interior Council at its 2019 winter meeting 2 last March. The council voted to support both WSA 19-06 3 and this proposal as presented by BLM staff. 4 5 The Federal Subsistence Board approved 6 WSA 19-06 in July increasing the harvest limit, 7 extending the winter season and expanding the 8 delegation of authority for Fortymile Caribou for the 9 2019-20 regulatory year.

10 11 The Fortymile Herd population has 12 fluctuated over time, but it's been stable since 1997 13 and currently numbers over 71,000 caribou, which is 14 within management objectives of 50-100,000 caribou. 15 However, the Fortymile Herd is showing signs of 16 nutritional stress as evidenced by decreasing 17 parturition or birth rates and changes in summer 18 grazing habitats. 19 20 The Fortymile Herd experiences 21 extremely high hunting pressure due to its 22 accessibility from the Steese and Taylor Highways. 23 Local rural communities have expressed concern about 24 safety, crowding and competition from non-local 25 hunters. This heavy use has resulted in a complex 26 suite of regulations and annual adjustments in-season 27 lengths and harvest limits. 28 29 Harvest of Fortymile Caribou is 30 primarily managed through fall and winter registration 31 permits and harvest quotas. The State manages the 32 Fortymile hunt by zone rather than unit. Closing zones 33 by emergency order when quotas are met. Fortymile 34 Caribou harvest has increased population and therefore 35 harvest quotas have increased. 36 37 Total Fortymile harvest range from 146 38 bulls in 1996 to 2,400 caribou in 2018. Non-local 39 residents harvest the vast majority of Fortymile 40 Caribou. Currently, Fortymile harvest management is 41 geared towards Slowing current growth through 42 increasing harvest quotas. When the Fortymile herd 43 exceeds 70,000 caribou, as it currently does, the 44 Coalition's Management Plan recommend a 4 percent 45 harvest Right. 46 47 Adoption of WP20-48 would align Federal 48 and State codified hunting regulations for the 49 Fortymile Herd which would reduce user confusion and 50




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1 precludes Federal regulations from being more 2 restrictive than State regulations. Delegating 3 additional authority to the Federal in-season manager 4 would provide the flexibility needed to respond to 5 changing herd and hunt conditions in coordination with 6 State managers. 7 8 Adopting this proposal does not 9 guarantee more liberal harvest regulations as in-season

10 managers can announce season dates and harvest limits. 11 At its winter 2019 meeting, the Eastern Interior 12 Council voiced concerns about these regulation changes 13 including conflicts with the State youth hunt, meat 14 care during hot weather and harvesting bulls during the 15 rut when they are unpalatable. 16 17 While the Fortymile Herd is at the 18 midpoint of management objectives, it is already 19 displaying signs of nutritional stress, so adjusting 20 increased harvest is needed to curtail growth. If 21 caribou populations exceed carrying capacity, their 22 populations can crash with long-lasting decreases in 23 sustained yield. Rural priority for Federally 24 qualified subsistence users could be maintained if 25 Federal seasons remain open after State seasons close. 26 27 The OSM conclusion is to support 28 Proposal WP20-48. 29 30 Thank you, Madame Chair. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Questions. 33 34 MR. WRIGHT: Could you tell me what was 35 the historical numbers like 100 years ago at the 36 beginning of management? 37 38 MS. MAAS: Yeah. So historically they 39 were really, really high. Like back in the 1930s I 40 think it was like upwards of 200,000. 41 42 MR. WRIGHT: I kind of know the 43 numbers. My question is how do you guys suppose they 44 survived if you're having hardship at 70,000? How was 45 there 200,000? 46 47 MS. MAAS: Yeah, there's a lot of 48 discussion about..... 49 50




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Page

89

1 MR. WRIGHT: It don't make sense to me. 2 I'm sorry. 3

4 MS. MAAS: .....the accuracy of the

5 numbers back then and it may have counted some of the

6 Nelchina Herd in with the Fortymile Herd. Even though

7 the estimate -- oh, here it is, 260-500,000 caribou. 8

9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Lisa, wasn't

10 that done without airplanes? 11

12 MS. MAAS: Yeah. I mean this is back

13 in the 1920s. 14

15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Did they have

16 a formula? 17

18 MR. WRIGHT: So my theory is if you're

19 seeing 500,000 back in the '20s when we had no

20 airplane, that's probably about a few percent of it.

21 If you couldn't see them, there's no way you could

22 know. 23

24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Unless they

25 extract..... 26

27 MS. MAAS: And after the 1920s they

28 crashed, during the 1930s, to less than 20,000. 29

30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Was that with

31 aircraft surveys? 32

33 MS. MAAS: I don't think the aircraft

34 surveys started until like the 1970s. Maybe 1980s. 35

36 MR. WRIGHT: I was just curious. Thank

37 you for your answer. 38

39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I remember

40 when that whole Fortymile planning team started. They

41 were saying well that's kind of like you can't really

42 justify that it's solid numbers somehow. It's

43 differently done, yes. 44

45 MR. BASSICH: There wasn't the genetics

46 back then that they have for the accuracy and those

47 numbers aren't verifiable. Statistically, they were

48 kind of a best guess number back then. 49

50




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1 MS. MAAS: Yeah, I mean I do have -- 2 the Fortymile Herd was undoubtably larger in the 1920s 3 than since that time. So even though they may have 4 peaked during the 1920s it doesn't seem to be a 5 sustainable number considering they crashed to less 6 than 20,000 in the 1930s. 7 8 If you look on Page 77, that's the 9 graph of population estimates from 1985, so since 1985

10 those estimates have been used with an aerial photo 11 census. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 14 15 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. This comment 16 is more for the Council here. The Fortymile Coalition 17 is the one responsible for making a lot of these 18 recommendations. We've had a lot of discussion about 19 this, along with the Canadians. 20 21 Although we differ a little bit in some 22 of our views and values and how we'd like to see the 23 herd grow or be sustained, one thing that did come out 24 on the Alaska side in particular is that the most 25 important thing is that the herd remain sustainable. 26 It's better to sustain it at a certain level a little 27 bit lower through harvest than it is to allow it to 28 crash because of the hardships to the people in the 29 regions that rely on this resource. 30 31 So that's why some of these were 32 initiated is to try and give the tools to managers to 33 make sure we don't let it get out of control, so there 34 is a long, consistent availability of that resource, 35 which is absolutely essential to the subsistence way of 36 life. 37 38 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Andy. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The crux of 41 this proposal is to make the Federal season align, so 42 there's more opportunity on the Federal BLM land. We 43 took this up last meeting. Isn't this one of those 44 proposals that -- was that a special action? No, it 45 was just a proposal. 46 47 MS. MAAS: Through the Chair. Yeah, 48 there was a special action WSA19-06 that they approved 49 in July. So there's currently for this regulatory year 50




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1 a special action in effect. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: And now this 4 would make it permanent. Any other questions. 5 6 (No comments) 7 8 MR. WOODRUFF: Move to adopt WP20-48. 9

10 MR. GLANZ: I'll second it. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It's been 13 moved and seconded to adopt WP20-48. Is there any 14 tribal consultations? That might have been Zach's job 15 and he's..... 16 17 MS. MAAS: I mean we had a tribal 18 consultation on all the Eastern Interior proposals, but 19 no comments were specifically received for 20-48. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any comments 22 from ADF&G. 23 24 (No comments) 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: None. 27 Federal. Now it's your turn. 28 29 MR. HERRIGES: Madame Chair. I'm Jim 30 Herriges with Eastern Interior BLM Field Office. I 31 just wanted to jump in, for those that aren't familiar 32 with it, and explain, yes, we did Have a special action 33 that was approved by the Federal Subsistence Board 34 back in June and as a result of that, as an example of 35 what this is meant to allow us to do. 36 37 We were able to change the bag limit to 38 one caribou from one bull so that we would match the 39 State season and weren't confusing to users. We also 40 would have had the option to change our season to start 41 October 21st when the State season was planned to 42 begin. 43 44 As it is, because there isn't a plan 45 for the State winter season this year, we will open 46 subsistence season -- the plan is to open it on 47 November 1st as usual and is in the current regulations 48 book. 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Any 2 questions. 3 4 MR. WOODRUFF: Jim, are you the 5 in-season manager? 6 7 MR. HERRIGES: The field office manager 8 is the in-season manager, yeah. 9

10 MR. WOODRUFF: I would encourage that 11 we don't harvest caribou in October because of the rut. 12 November 1st seems like the right time and that's going 13 to happen this year. I'll go get one and we'll see if 14 it's in rut. 15 16 (Laughter) 17 18 MR. HERRIGES: Thank you. 19 20 MR. GLANZ: We had a meeting, Alaskan 21 Coalition meeting. I can't remember her name, she's 22 the Deputy Commander of Alaska Fish and Game or 23 something up here and she said, well, we harvested 24 three of them and two of them were cows and the third 25 one was a bull and he didn't smell that bad. A bunch 26 of the Natives were in the audience laughing. 27 28 Just like the other day, there was 29 about eight, ten caribou standing on the road and said 30 you're talking to the wrong people. I said, oh, you 31 know about rutting caribou, huh. We were just kidding. 32 Anyway, that's horrible. And I'd walk out in the 33 parking lot at Central where they issue permits and 34 stuff and there would be trucks with two bull caribou 35 in it and you couldn't stand to go near it. This was 36 way after October 21st. They still were stinking 37 pretty good. I don't know how anybody could eat it 38 because my friend shot caribou one time and he found 39 out it was a rutting bull. His dogs wouldn't eat it. 40 That's how good they smell. 41 42 So I'd encourage starting November 1st 43 again like we always had it, but whatever. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I've heard 46 that, that the dogs won't even eat it. Any other 47 questions. Did you get your question answered, the 48 people who are the managers, because I didn't. Are 49 you? 50




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1 MR. BASSICH: It's the field office. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It's not you? 4 5 MR. HERRIGES: No, it's our field 6 office manager. I'm a wildlife biologist, so that 7 currently is -- the acting field office manager is John 8 Haddocks. We're in the process of hiring a new one 9 here sometime soon.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: How long has 12 he been there? 13 14 MR. HERRIGES: He's just acting as the 15 field office manager. He was associate field office 16 manager for the last couple years, so he's been around. 17 He worked for the military for quite a few years, so 18 he's been in Alaska for a long time involved with 19 wildlife issue. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 22 They're having fun next door. My goodness. All right. 23 Hearing no more questions we'll move on. Any comments 24 from tribal. 25 26 (No comments) 27 28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Advisory 29 Committee groups. 30 31 MR. GLANZ: Madame Chair. I was 32 mandated that I try to get rid of that October 21st 33 opening from my AC. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I know 36 that Upper Tanana Fortymile hasn't met yet. 37 Subsistence Resource Commissions. 38 39 (No comments) 40 41 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'm missing 42 Zach. Summary of written public comments. Go ahead, 43 Lisa. 44 45 MS. MAAS: There were no written public 46 comments for 29-48. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Do we 49 have any public testimony to this proposal, either in 50




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1 the audience or online. 2 3 (No comments) 4 5 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 6 7 MR. WOODRUFF: Call for question. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The motion is

10 on the floor. Andy. 11 12 MR. BASSICH: I think it's incumbent 13 upon us to justify our position here so I'm going to 14 make an attempt to do that. Thank you Vince Matthews 15 for training us very well here. 16 17 The things we are supposed to speak 18 about, is there a conservation concern. Yes, there is. 19 It's actually over-population which might adversely 20 affect the herd and, therefore, the hunting opportunity 21 for subsistence people. 22 23 Is the recommendation supported by 24 substantial evidence such as biological and traditional 25 ecological knowledge. Yes. The reports from area 26 managers showing low parturition rates for 27 three-year-olds showing that there is stress on the 28 herd and that might be over growing their habitat as 29 far as their ability continue to grow which could lead 30 to a crash. 31 32 Will the recommendation benefit or be 33 detrimental to subsistence. It will definitely be 34 beneficial to subsistence users because hopefully 35 through this action it will create the opportunity to 36 manage the herd so that it doesn't crash, thereby 37 allowing it to be a very consistent, reliable resource 38 for subsistence users. 39 40 Finally, will the recommendation 41 unnecessarily restrict others. By no means, no. It 42 will actually open up more opportunity for all users, 43 Federally qualified people. 44 45 So with that stated I would support the 46 motion as it is. I would like to ask from the Chair is 47 there a way that we can put in comments to try and have 48 the dates changed for that in the regulation or whether 49 that needs to be done through a separate motion. 50




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1 Madame Chair. 2 3 4 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I would say 5 you have to amend it to change that season. So that 6 would be an amended motion and it has to go now when 7 you vote on it, then you vote on the main one as 8 amended. 9

10 MR. BASSICH: Therefore I would like to 11 also make an amendment to the motion on the table that 12 the recommendation from our Council would be to change 13 the winter hunt starting date to November 1st instead 14 of October 21st. 15 16 MR. GLANZ: I'll second that, Madame 17 Chair. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Lisa 20 has..... 21 22 MR. BASSICH: Speaking to the motion 23 there's been a lot of traditional knowledge and 24 longtime hunting experience shows that bull caribou 25 hunted and harvested in October are inedible, therefore 26 it's a waste of the resource. 27 28 Thank you, Madame Chair. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Lisa. 31 32 MS. MAAS: Thanks, Madame Chair. I 33 just wanted to clarify that the October 21st date, 34 that's currently in the State codified regulations and 35 then each year the in-season managers announce a date 36 within those sideboards. So the same thing is on the 37 Federal side. Just because in the regulation booklet 38 it says October 21st, it's up to the in-season manager 39 to decide when to actually announce that date. 40 41 Also there's also cow caribou that I 42 know that Council discussed at their March meeting the 43 potential to have a cow only season in the end of 44 October because right now we are in a conservation 45 concern to try and slow population growth. 46 47 So I just wanted to clarify that. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Did they ever 50




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1 open it that early? 2 3 MS. MAAS: Last year the State did open 4 it on October 21st and this year the State opened it on 5 October 27th. Again, I mean just an FYI. If the 6 Federal regulations don't open until November 1st and 7 they are technically more restrictive than the State, 8 but again this hunt in particular we're delegating a 9 lot of authority to those in-season managers to do that

10 annual adjustment. 11 12 MR. BASSICH: If I may ask a question. 13 Has it ever worked out that we make a recommendation 14 the Federal Subsistence Board passes it and then we 15 would then put in a proposal for the State to align 16 with the Federal. 17 18 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Well, if it 19 hasn't, it certainly could be. 20 21 MR. BASSICH: Because I think in long 22 term that addresses the issue so that we don't go 23 around and around and around for the next couple years 24 on this. We're simply trying to -- I understand what 25 you're saying, but the real problem that I see is that 26 all of us that live out on the land and use this 27 resource are doing it for a long time and will 28 hopefully continue to. 29 30 Managers and in-season managers and 31 biologists come and go and may not be privy in years to 32 come of what we're discussing and what the issue is. 33 So I think it maybe would be kind of refreshing to have 34 for maybe this year or whatever a little bit more 35 restrictive policy for Federally qualified but use that 36 as the incentive to try and get the State to align to 37 the Federal. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Well, in an 40 effort to make it simple I don't know how we did here 41 because if it was left alone without the amendment, 42 they still have -- we could still comment because if 43 it's a cow season, then it wouldn't be an issue. If 44 they just had a cow season during that part that we're 45 concerned about and they wanted to shoot cows, then we 46 just took that away. 47 48 MR. BASSICH: Okay. I'm going to 49 remove my amendment to the original. 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Does the 2 second concur? 3 4 MR. GLANZ: Yes. 5 6 MR. BASSICH: So that will simplify it 7 at this point in time. I don't want to get wrapped 8 around the axle. Maybe what we could do in our 9 comments here comment of our concern of that and then

10 we're okay with the 21st opening if it's a cow only 11 season. How does that sound? 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So that will 14 be in our comments. Any other comments that you want 15 to add? 16 17 (No comments) 18 19 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you 20 guys. That worked out very slick. 21 22 MR. BASSICH: Now we can call the 23 question. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The question 26 has been called for. The motion is to support WP20-48 27 to revise seasons and harvest limits for caribou in 28 Units 20F, 20E and 25C. All in favor. 29 30 IN UNISON: Aye. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone 33 opposed. 34 35 (No opposing votes) 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Motion 38 carries. Then with our comments about that would be an 39 area that we would not support bull, cow only. 40 41 This one we're going to take up, 42 WP20-49. Rescind the closure to non-Federally 43 qualified users for sheep in Unit 25A, Arctic Village 44 Sheep Management Area. Page 98. 45 46 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 47 Members of the Council. It's very nice being here with 48 you today. My name is Pippa Kenner and I'm an 49 anthropologist with the Office of Subsistence 50




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1 Management in Anchorage. Beside me is Lisa Maas. 2 She's a wildlife biologist and a co-worker of mine. 3 The analysis of the proposal begins on Page 98. For 4 people in the audience there are some Council books on 5 the back table that you can follow along if you'd like. 6 7 This proposal was submitted by the 8 Alaska Department of Fish and Game and it requests that 9 the Arctic Village Sheep Management Area in Unit 25A be

10 open to the harvest of sheep by non-Federally qualified 11 users. 12 13 Put succinctly, the proponent states 14 that the restriction of sheep hunting to residents of 15 only a few communities is not necessary to accommodate 16 local subsistence uses. Harvest records indicate 17 residents of these communities rarely hunt sheep. 18 Furthermore, there is no biological reason to preclude 19 sheep hunting opportunities by the public in the 20 Management Area. The proponent states that this 21 restriction is not necessary to provide for subsistence 22 uses. 23 24 So real quickly, 99 percent of the 25 management area is Federal public lands and they're all 26 within the Arctic National 27 Wildlife Refuge. The customary and traditional use 28 determination includes the residents of Arctic Village, 29 Chalkyitsik, Fort Yukon, Kaktovik and Venetie. They 30 are the Federally qualified subsistence users that are 31 eligible to hunt sheep under Federal regulations in the 32 management area. 33 34 On Page 102 of your Council book is the 35 regulation that this Council submitted to the Board of 36 Game, Proposal 82, that will be taken up a couple weeks 37 before the Federal Subsistence Board meets. 38 39 The Council is requesting that the 40 State recognize the Management Area and implement two 41 harvest limits by changing the resident harvest limit 42 from three sheep every regulatory year to 43 one ram with full curl horn or larger every four 44 regulatory years and replacing most of the harvest 45 tickets with drawing permits. 46 Additionally, the Council is requesting the nonresident 47 youth hunt be eliminated in the Management Area. So 48 that's going to the Board of Game. 49 50




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1 Lisa, could you give an overview of the 2 biological background for this proposal. 3 4 MS. MAAS: Sure. Thanks, Pippa. For 5 the record, Lisa Maas. The biology is on Page 103 of 6 your meeting books. As one of the testifiers from 7 Arctic Village said this morning, sheep don't really 8 migrate, they stay in their drainages. So are 9 effectively a lot of sub-populations than one big

10 population. There hasn't been a lot of consistent 11 surveying, so it's hard to really get good trend data 12 over years because they're not always surveying the 13 exact same area. 14 15 Basically the density north of Cane 16 Creek has historically always been higher than the area 17 south of Cane Creek. So the Red Sheep/Cane Creek 18 drainages generally have higher sheep densities than 19 the ones lower and that's probably due to habitat. The 20 most recent surveys in 2016, density within the Arctic 21 Village Sheep Management Area is likely .7 to .75 sheep 22 per square mile and no surveys have been conducted 23 since 2016. That was for all of the survey area. 24 25 The most recent data for dividing 26 between the northern and southern half of the basin 27 area between 2012 and 2015 sheep density north of Cane 28 Creek was 1.5 to 1.8 sheep per square mile, whereas 29 densities south of Cane Creek was .25 to .7 sheep per 30 square mile. 31 32 So that's just a brief overview of the 33 sheep densities. 34 35 MS. KENNER: Thanks, Lisa. This is 36 Pippa Kenner again. People traditionally occupying the 37 area call themselves Neets'aii Gwich'in. The 38 literature pertaining to these people is sparse and 39 they have rarely participated in research. Gwich'in 40 number about 1,500 people and there are about 150 41 speakers of the language in America and Canada. 42 Neets'aii Gwich'in means people who dwell on the side 43 of the mountain. Their traditional territory was the 44 southern face of the Brooks Range within reach of the 45 east fork Chandalar, Koness and Sheenjek Rivers. 46 47 Arctic Village residents continued 48 their highly nomadic way of life into the 1950s and 49 there are three semi-permanent settlements, Arctic 50




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1 Village, Christian Village and Venetie. That's where 2 Neets'aii Gwich'in settled when they moved into a more 3 sedentary way of life. 4 5 Neets'aii Gwich'in are primarily 6 hunters and secondarily fishers and gatherers. They 7 are mountain people, as their name implies. They 8 prefer to stay in mountainous areas rather than the 9 flatlands to the south. Before about 1930 Neets'aii

10 Gwich'in regularly traveled over the Brooks Range to 11 the Arctic Coast to trade with the Inupiat in the area 12 of Barter Island, thus the name Barter Island. 13 14 Sheep, caribou, fish and small wildlife 15 were harvested along the travel route, traversing the 16 Brooks Range. According to Arctic Village elder 17 Trimble Gilbert, Red Sheep Creek and Cane Creek are 18 situated on this travel route. Hollis Twitchell did an 19 onsite interview with Trimble Gilbert and testified in 20 front of this Council two years ago. 21 22 Mr. Gilbert described that his clan, 23 men and women, elders and youth, would travel by foot 24 up Red Sheep Creek to a certain place and when this 25 place was reached, some men continued over the pass and 26 down the Coastal Plain to trade at Barter Island while 27 families stayed on at the site, sometimes for months, 28 harvesting and preserving sheep and other resources. 29 When they were ready to move on, they oftentimes loaded 30 boats made of animal skins with dried food that had 31 been stored in specially-made caches. Specialized 32 hunting supplies remained behind in these caches. 33 34 We have some other information about 35 the use of the Arctic Village Sheep Management Area. 36 In 2001, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's Joanne 37 Gustafson interviewed several elders at Arctic Village. 38 Elders described the existence of sheep fences up Red 39 Sheep Creek that people built to guide sheep into 40 snares or over cliffs. One elder described how men 41 would rock climb, moving slowly on the side of the 42 mountain to harvest sheep and he identified several 43 graves in the area. 44 45 Additionally, Louisiana State 46 University graduate student Frederick Hadleigh-West 47 lived with Neets'aii Gwich'in on visits ranging up to 48 two months and during all seasons. He published his 49 doctorate dissertation in 1963, describing his 50




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1 observations and experiences and he said that after 2 caribou and ground squirrel third in importance was the 3 mountain sheep hunted in the late winter. 4 Hadleigh-West identified four very specific sheep 5 hunting areas used by Arctic Village residents 6 specifically along the Sheenjek, East Fork Chandalar 7 River, Cane Creek and Red Sheep Creek. 8 9 Finally, Steven Dinero, Philadelphia

10 University, conducted field work in Arctic Village in 11 the early 2000s. He told us that among the Gwich'in 12 there's a story about how Red Sheep Creek was named, 13 which illustrates the link between subsistence and 14 religious practices and beliefs. It also underscores 15 the importance to the area to the residents of Arctic 16 Village and shed some light on why Arctic Village 17 residents consider Red Sheep Creek such a revered 18 place. 19 20 The trip from Arctic Village to Red 21 Sheep Creek itself is 45 miles and residents use great 22 effort both physically and economically to hunt sheep 23 in this drainages. Arctic Village residents have 24 commented that allowing non-Federally qualified users 25 to harvest sheep in Red Sheep Creek and Cane Creek 26 drainages during the time when Arctic Village residents 27 customarily and traditionally harvested sheep affects 28 Arctic Village residents' ability to access an 29 important sheep hunting 30 area. 31 32 Since 1993, Arctic Village residents 33 have noted to the Board that plane traffic by 34 non-Federally qualified users have interfered with 35 their ability to successfully hunt sheep in the Red 36 Sheep and Cane Creek drainages. Residents reported 37 that plane fly-overs spooked sheep and that older rams 38 can climb 39 to higher elevations, making them more difficult to 40 hunt, explaining explained that Red Sheep and Cane 41 Creek are both very 42 narrow valleys, and consequently flights through the 43 area disturb sheep. 44 45 Now I'm going to move on a little bit 46 to the harvest history that we put together. It starts 47 on Page 107. I'm going to direct you to the Table 2 on 48 Page 108. It shows that since 1985 40 permits have 49 been requested. This is Federal. The Federal permits 50




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1 are only good in the Arctic Village Sheep Management 2 Area. The number of hunts reported was 17 and there's 3 a great deal of permits that were not returned, and the 4 reported harvest was nine. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 7 8 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I was just 9 wondering if you have any records or surveys on the use

10 of reporting in a lot of these rural communities. What 11 I'm referring to is that it's pretty much a paperless 12 society in a lot of these really rural communities. 13 14 I'm not that familiar with Arctic 15 Village or Venetie, but I have experience in other 16 villages and people just don't put a lot of effort into 17 doing a lot of paper reporting because it's just their 18 way of life. We find this argument all the time in the 19 Yukon when we try to do mandatory harvest reporting for 20 king salmon and chum salmon. The argument that's 21 always used to stop that from happening is that these 22 people live in a paperless society, that they don't 23 believe that they should have to report their harvest. 24 25 So I just wonder. You know, when you 26 say -- because what's being used against these people a 27 lot of times is showing that they don't harvest 28 heavily, which maybe they don't, but it's very 29 spiritual, but that they don't show that they have much 30 success. Maybe they're just not reporting these 31 successes. Just like the people in the Lower Yukon 32 fish for salmon but they don't report that they catch 33 any salmon. 34 35 So I'm just curious because I hate to 36 see something used one way in one situation, but not 37 used in another way. Certainly I hate to see a 38 situation where just because they don't report 39 something they lose something that's very valuable to 40 them. 41 42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: When Craig 43 Fleener was here, CATG did a lot of reports and they 44 had reports that were different than the paper that 45 they were required to get. Is that still being done? 46 47 MS. KENNER: Thank you for these 48 questions. I really appreciate it, Madame Chair and 49 Member Bassich. No, TCC is not doing the harvest 50




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1 surveys that you're talking about that they were doing 2 in probably the '90s. They do do assessments of 3 harvest, but that particular program is not moving 4 forward. I think at the time they were also trying to 5 develop their own enumeration and IMS, Information 6 Management System, to a very sophisticated level. I 7 think there were problems with that between the 8 technology and the education needed to do it. 9

10 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: You said 11 '90s, but I've been on here since 2001 and Craig wasn't 12 on it to start with. So somewhere in the time I've 13 been on here Craig said that -- he worked for CATG, I 14 believe. 15 16 MS. KENNER: I'm wrong then. It was in 17 the 2000s. In my head I can't exactly..... 18 19 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah, because 20 they worked hard at trying to get more information is 21 what we were told then. 22 23 MS. KENNER: One of the things I wanted 24 to point out, Member Bassich, is that on the Lower 25 Yukon they use household harvest surveys and after the 26 season is the gold standard. That's better than any 27 reporting system. Going around and talking to people 28 face to face is the best you're going to get. 29 30 So when we're talking about fish and 31 wildlife, there is a little bit of a difference in how 32 they're treated both regulatory wise and by 33 communities. So we're just going to talk about 34 wildlife for now. I'm going to give you my 35 professional judgment. This information is located in 36 various areas and sources, but in general there is a 37 pattern and this is what the pattern is. 38 39 The more remote you go in general, the 40 less likely people are to have vendors or to have had 41 the permit system, if there is one. Somebody hascome 42 and started to develop that reporting system. So it's 43 not that people once reported and now they don't, 44 they've never reported through this paper network. 45 46 Fish and Game does an excellent job 47 when there are conservation issues. Oftentimes the 48 Alaska Department of Fish and Game -- and I can talk 49 about them because we use their system. I don't mean 50




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1 to speak for them, but we use their system. 2 3 For instance, up in the Northwest 4 Arctic Region right now with the caribou issues they're 5 having, they're just now introducing a registration 6 permit to the communities. They have to make sure 7 there's vendors, make sure the people are getting the 8 permits before -- getting a license before they can get 9 the permits. So they're kind of just starting that

10 process now. 11 12 So Arctic Village is a unique case in 13 that -- what the Alaska Department of Fish and Game has 14 done in the past in areas where people aren't reporting 15 regularly, they will fund usually three harvest surveys 16 in a row so they get three years of data. Oftentimes 17 they really want to find out how many ungulates people 18 are getting, but oftentimes they'll ask about the 19 harvest of all resources. 20 21 Arctic Village is one of these 22 communities that has never allowed a harvest survey. 23 You can commission people to work with them and Arctic 24 Village has always pushed back on one of those surveys. 25 I think we might have some harvest information for 26 Venetie. So there are places, for instance, down on 27 the Lower Yukon, Lower Kuskokwim, where I feel safe to 28 say they don't even know we're here making regulations. 29 They don't know what the regulations are, they don't 30 care. They're just doing what they always did. 31 32 We're moving people into the 20th 33 century when it comes to reporting and it's going at 34 the..... 35 36 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: 21st? 37 38 MS. KENNER: No, 20th. And it's moving 39 at the pace it probably should move. So what I wanted 40 to point out on Page 108 is that people in Arctic 41 Village and Fort Yukon have actually applied for these 42 permits and reported back. So it's not that there's no 43 reporting, we do have some reporting. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: How do they 46 get these harvest permits? 47 48 MR. MATHEWS: Vince Mathews, this time 49 with Arctic Refuge. Yes, I oversee the permits for 50




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1 seven different hunts. I think it's down to five now, 2 but was at seven. One of them is the Arctic Village 3 Sheep Management Area. So the permits are made 4 available through my office and then through staff that 5 are traveling to like Arctic Village. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Has anyone 8 gotten any in the last couple years? 9

10 MR. MATHEWS: I'd have to pull up the 11 database, but I think what they've covered they have 12 gotten them. The key point to get across there from my 13 knowledge is that this is an expensive difficult hunt. 14 I think they've covered that in past testimony. So it 15 is one where all the factors have to come into play 16 before they decide to go hunt. That's how I took away 17 the testimony in the past. 18 19 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Andy. 20 21 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I just want 22 to make the point very clear. I think -- you say that 23 oftentimes these people don't take the time in these 24 really remote areas to fill out the paperwork or 25 whatever, so there's no physical record of that. 26 27 In my opinion, oftentimes these 28 regulatory processes just say, well, there's no 29 harvest, therefore there's no concern and we should 30 open this up, when in fact the people are doing what 31 they've always done. They just don't choose to 32 participate in our methods and our regulatory process. 33 34 35 To me, it's almost like saying here's a 36 place you can go apply to be Jewish or a Christian or a 37 Protestant. It's a spiritual thing for them. It's 38 very personal and it's something they've done 39 traditionally throughout their existence up there. So 40 why do they need our permission to go do that? If I 41 was a person living there and I grew up that way, 42 that's probably the way I would feel and that's 43 probably the way I would react and conduct myself. 44 45 So the point that I'm making is just 46 because there isn't some harvest reporting doesn't 47 downplay the need there, it doesn't downplay the 48 dependance on it and it certainly shouldn't be held 49 against them and used as a mechanism to justify 50




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1 intruding on a spiritual cultural practice that is 2 obviously, because we've been talking about this for 3 every meeting just about that I've ever been to at the 4 RAC. It doesn't justify taking that or threatening 5 that cultural experience. 6 7 In my opinion, if the Federal program 8 can't protect a Native cultural or spiritual activity 9 that is that important to those people, then it fails

10 dramatically in its entire entity. This is a classic 11 example of where the Federal program has to step in and 12 protect those cultural practices in a remote area by 13 people. 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: There's no 16 motion on the floor. This is for questions. 17 18 MR. BASSICH: I know, I know. I'm just 19 voicing opinion. 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. And 22 you can do it..... 23 24 MR. BASSICH: I think it's a really 25 important concept for people to keep in mind because it 26 is impacting the overall process here. I think it's 27 just really important and I'm just trying to bring out 28 -- you know, we heard incredibly good testimony that 29 supports everything I've just said this morning and I'd 30 like to refer to that. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All I'm 33 saying, Andy, is we're trying to introduce the thing 34 and then go through the process. 35 36 MR. BASSICH: Okay. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: You can do 39 more when it's on the floor. Did you have one? 40 41 MR. WOODRUFF: I'll wait. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, okay. 44 Pippa. 45 46 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 47 I was just going to point out I had a little bit more 48 to go, but if you think you've heard enough and we're 49 ready to move on, I'm fine with that. 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Council 2 members, do you need to hear any more? 3 4 (Council shaking their heads) 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I don't think 7 so either. Now we'll just go through and then we'll 8 have our motion and continue. Next we have the 9 introduction and presentation of analysis and now a

10 report on Board consultations from tribes and ANCSA 11 corps. Who is doing that? 12 13 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 14 This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. Orville, are you 15 online? 16 17 MR. LIND: Yes, I am. 18 19 MS. KENNER: Hi, Orville. We just got 20 asked for the product of the consultation over the 21 Proposal WP20-49. 22 23 MR. LIND: Okay. I can share our 24 consultation information from September 23rd which 25 involved Eastern Interior. We had one person from the 26 village of Venetie, Myra. She said she wanted to speak 27 on Red Sheep Creek and she's not sure what is going on, 28 but she was wondering why it would be open to the 29 public. This is of concern to her. 30 31 She also stated that she would -- wants 32 to just leave it alone because the sheep are declining. 33 It should be left alone until the sheep population 34 increases. She also mentioned it is a traditional 35 hunting ground for the people living in the area, so 36 this is very concerning to her. 37 38 She asked who was the delegate for her 39 area in the Eastern Interior and the reply from OSM 40 Staff was that there was no one particularly from 41 Arctic Village or Venetie. The closest person that 42 would be for her region would be Andrew Firmin in the 43 Fort Yukon area, but there was no Council member from 44 Arctic Village. 45 There was one from Arctic Village, but he has since 46 retired. 47 48 That is all I have for consultation 49 information. 50




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1 Thank you, Madame Chair. 2 3 Council members. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Thank 6 you. Just a quick question. Were you on whenever we 7 had the roundtable discussion with Arctic Village? 8 9 MR. LIND: Yes, I was.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. So you 12 heard -- I don't need to bring it up again, but they 13 have -- there's a lack of communication for getting to 14 them when that meeting took place, so I hopefully will 15 solve that problem. 16 17 Thank you. 18 19 MR. LIND: I've been in contact with 20 the Arctic Village Council (phone breakup) September 21 27th. I did finally contact the office September 30th 22 and got to talk to her on October 1st. We talked about 23 dates and times. I did suggest that it does take some 24 time to set up consultation for the tribes and we 25 certainly are going to make it happen, but we have to 26 make it happen in a timely manner, which would be about 27 the second week in November at the earliest. 28 29 They requested after that on October 30 2nd that we have it on October 14th. As you look on 31 your calendar, October 14th was a holiday yesterday and 32 we don't function on the 14th. But I just tried 33 calling her office again and hopefully we can make the 34 connection and follow up the request. 35 36 Thank you, Madame Chair. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I might be 39 saying this twice, but I just want to let you guys know 40 that last night we talked about this, that they didn't 41 have anything to bring us at this meeting other than 42 their public testimony, but they can still do tribal 43 consultation. My understanding is then it would go to 44 the Board through Orville. And that meeting that he's 45 proposing would take it to the Board. 46 47 Any questions? 48 49 MR. WOODRUFF: Mr. Orville, are you 50




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1 still doing these tribal consultations during the moose 2 season? I think you're going to get worse results 3 doing that as opposed to when people are home. 4 5 Thank you. 6 7 MR. LIND: Yes, the time set up for 8 wildlife proposals is during this timeframe and along 9 with the Regional Advisory Council meetings. I know

10 the same question and concern was raised the last 11 wildlife proposal season also. So it is what it is and 12 we try to do the best we can in trying to follow up 13 with tribal consultation requests. 14 15 Thank you. 16 17 MR. WOODRUFF: Just a follow up. When 18 I was at the Federal Subsistence Board meeting, Rhonda, 19 the Board member, suggested that we do not do surveys 20 during the hunting season or tribal consultation. I 21 think you should push your calendar around and you'll 22 get a lot better results. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I have 25 another suggestion. Whenever there's proposals, some 26 of these entities they have so much on their plate 27 besides just wildlife proposals that maybe a personal 28 call if you're not hearing from them to see if they 29 want to get on. 30 31 I had a personal call but I was busy. 32 I had meat to take care of and harvest, so I couldn't 33 even turn on the phone. I even forgot. But I knew 34 that it was going to be challenging for me to listen 35 in. I think they're dealing with the same thing. 36 37 Go ahead. 38 39 MS. KENNER: Madame Chair. This is 40 Pippa Kenner with OSM. I just wanted to add some more 41 information. That information is this, that tribal 42 consultation isn't just one thing. The Councils, when 43 the policy was being developed and you Councils were 44 reviewing it, many Councils wanted to make sure that 45 consultation occurred before the Council meeting. That 46 all the information would be brought together. 47 48 And so it has kind of compressed that 49 front end, but any tribe at any time can request tribal 50




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1 consultation. We do have to fit it into a schedule. 2 This consultation is with our Board, so we actually 3 have Board members at the -- they're consulting 4 directly with the leadership of the five Federal 5 agencies in Alaska. You can't get higher than that. 6 7 Also we have tribal consultation again 8 before the Board meeting. So we try to create several 9 opportunities for people to come forward, tribes and

10 ANCSA corporations. 11 12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: But if 13 they're busy doing something during hunting season and 14 harvest time and you have Board members there, that 15 doesn't do much good if people can't go. That's what 16 the complaint is. 17 18 MS. KENNER: Yes. Any tribal 19 consultation is with the Board and Board members if 20 it's one village or all villages. I just wanted to 21 point that out. 22 23 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Now 24 we're at agency comments, ADF&G. Are there any 25 comments on this proposal? 26 27 MR. MULLIGAN: Nothing more than we 28 already gave this morning, ma'am. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I'm 31 hearing that there is nothing more than what we talked 32 about this morning. Federal. 33 34 (No comments) 35 36 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I can 37 probably refer to this morning again. Advisory 38 Committee groups, other Regional Advisory Councils. 39 40 (No comments) 41 42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Fish and Game 43 Advisory Committees or Subsistence Resource 44 Commissions. 45 46 (No comments) 47 48 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Summary of 49 written public comments. Go ahead. 50




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1 MR. STEVENSON: Thank you, Madame 2 Chair. For clarification, would you like me to go back 3 to WP20-48 for the summary of written public comments? 4 5 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: No, just this 6 one. 7 8 MR. STEVENSON: Understood. One moment, 9 please, Madame Chair. Regarding Proposal 20-49 there

10 was one letter opposing the Proposal 20-49 from Ms. 11 Linda Pete. That's on Page 145 of the fall 2019 12 meeting book. 13 14 Thank you, Madame Chair. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Now we're at 17 public testimony. 18 19 Carrie Stevens. 20 21 MS. STEVENS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 22 Thank you, Council. My name is Carrie Stevens and I'm 23 currently a resident of Fairbanks. I apologize that I 24 was not planning to provide public testimony on this 25 proposal, but due to some of the discussion I wanted to 26 share some of my knowledge and experience in relation 27 to the discussion on data. 28 29 I am not sanctioned by the Council of 30 Athabaskan Tribal Governments to speak at this time, 31 but I was a former employee of the CATG and just wanted 32 to clarify some of the references to harvest data and 33 surveys. 34 35 To answer some of the issues brought up 36 by Council Member Andy Bassich, it has been clearly 37 outlined in technical reports by ADF&G, namely the 38 seminole report done by Clarence Alexander and ADF&G 39 staff in 1992 that clearly has stated that the harvest 40 tag system does not produce accurate harvest data, so 41 that should not be a question. The report stated you 42 get anywhere from a 0 to 76 percent response rate for 43 harvest. That was Technical Report 215 from 1992. 44 That has been clearly outlined in technical report 45 after technical report. 46 47 In response to this issue, in the 1990s 48 and the early 2000s, CATG entered into both 809 49 agreements with OSM and self-governance agreements with 50




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1 the Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge to produce 2 accurate data on harvest. This was limited to 3 primarily the villages of the Yukon Flats National 4 Wildlife Refuge. This is why Arctic Village is only 5 included in some years. 6 7 There was no refusal to my knowledge -- 8 having lived in Arctic Village in 1999 and worked with 9 the council ever since -- any refusal to ever

10 participate in a survey. So that would be huge news 11 probably even to the people of Arctic Village. That 12 was mentioned, so I just wanted to clarify that. 13 14 Sheep were never included and, yes, 15 many times the people thought data was being gathered 16 against them. That that was the purpose and intent of 17 the data gathering. 18 19 I just want to be clear here on this 20 issue of harvest data. It is clear that the current 21 system does not produce accurate numbers. We know that 22 through 809 agreements and self-governance agreements 23 the best producers of data are tribes. This is not 24 regularly funded through OSM, although you have 25 repetitively stated in your own reports it's necessary. 26 27 28 It was a huge finding of the 2010 OSM 29 review by the Department of Interior and all the 30 failures of OSM that has yet to be corrected. I have 31 not seen OSM enter into a single other 809 agreement 32 with the tribe for Federal subsistence management since 33 2010. 34 35 I highly encourage this RAC to take up 36 these issues, not just regulatory proposals. 37 Regulatory proposals are based on data. Data is a 38 problem. Tribes are sitting there wanting to steward 39 with you these resources. The Yukon Flats National 40 Wildlife Refuge Self-governance Agreement should be 41 seen as a model. 42 43 There was survey fatigue, so currently 44 there are not household surveys being conducted in the 45 Yukon Flats. We tried many times to have this 46 conversation with the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, 47 but it's highly politicized at the moment, so could not 48 move forward because there's also very little data on 49 caribou. 50




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1 So the people of Arctic Village very 2 much wanted to produce their own data in relationship 3 and partnership with OSM and all the tribes of the 4 Yukon Flats. I just encourage RAC Member Andrew Firmin 5 to correct me if I'm wrong because he knows all this 6 information as well. 7 8 This was all clearly documented in 9 Technical Paper 377, which is one of the only technical

10 papers co-produced by ADF&G and the tribal 11 organization, the Council of Athabaskan Tribal 12 Governments. That was published in 2012. I was a 13 co-author on that report and the report clearly calls 14 for increased opportunities in co-management to better 15 manage resources. 16 17 So this is in relation to this wildlife 18 proposal, but slightly larger than that, but I could 19 not listen to the discussion and some of the errors 20 made, I'm sure in good faith, related to data. 21 22 I also want to say that CATG's data is 23 not always taken well by some people because it proves 24 the point of reliance on subsistence resources and 25 politically-hired associates who do EIS reports had it 26 taken out of the ADF&G database. When I found that 27 out, you can imagine how I felt. We use the exact same 28 integrity as ADF&G and, in fact, their data analyst 29 crunched the numbers on all of the statistical models 30 related to harvest. 31 32 This is a huge and ongoing issue for 33 every proposal that you see before you, including this 34 one. I do appreciate the comments that Member Andy 35 Bassich made related to under-reporting and that not 36 being a representation of real need and also spiritual 37 and cultural connection related to this specific 38 proposal. 39 40 I just wanted to be very clear as to 41 why sheep were not included in those surveys. It was 42 not by any desire for Arctic Village to not be 43 included. It was not funded. Nor was Arctic Village 44 funded every year to be included because it was a Yukon 45 Flats agreement related to caribou. They were all 46 large animal surveys. 47 48 It's very clear in technical report 49 after technical report by both ADF&G and OSM that the 50




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Page

114

1 best way to produce data is in partnership with tribal 2 governments and I urge you to push that forward. 3

4 Thank you. 5

6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you,

7 Carrie. Any questions. 8

9 (No comments) 10

11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Thank

12 you. 13

14 MS. STEVENS: Thank you. As you can

15 tell, it's a huge passion of mine and I think it's just

16 best for everyone to have the best information that you

17 can have on hand to make these decisions and that's the

18 best way to get it. 19

20 MS. GEMMILL: Madame Chair. 21

22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. Could

23 you come over and sit at the mic. That was the next

24 thing I was going to say, is that if anyone from Arctic

25 Village has more to add because this is under public

26 comment. Go right ahead. 27

28 MS. GEMMILL: Margorie Gemmill. I

29 wanted to say that a few years ago my late husband went

30 out sheep hunting. They applied for the permits.

31 There was three of them. My brother and my cousin

32 Daniel and they all went. They did harvest and they

33 got sheep. 34

35 To my knowledge, I don't think it was

36 -- we got the harvest tickets and we did send them in

37 and we asked Fish and Wildlife about it later, a couple

38 years later, and they're like they don't know what

39 happened to them. So those hunts -- that one hunt is

40 not even recorded. So that goes to show how the system

41 works. 42

43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That's

44 actually happened to me, but then you can get penalized

45 if you don't send them in, so sometimes they give you a

46 second notice. I don't know how the Feds do that. 47

48 Thank you for that. 49

50




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1 MS. GEMMILL: Thank you. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: As far as 4 public testimony, which is what we're on, if anyone in 5 the audience that has anything additional to add from 6 our discussion this morning. Let the record reflect 7 that all of the Arctic Village roundtable discussion is 8 part of this public testimony. If there's anything to 9 add, just raise your hand.

10 11 Pippa. 12 13 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 14 This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. The analysis has a lot 15 more information that I went over, but I would like to 16 offer it to you as it becomes appropriate. Arctic 17 Village, when it first came to the Federal Subsistence 18 Board with this proposal, it was actually Fish and Game 19 Advisory Committee. What they asked for was a 20 community reporting system and they've asked for a 21 community reporting system several times. 22 23 I haven't asked lately, but it was 24 always turned down. It was always like, oh no, we're 25 not going to do a community reporting system. These 26 are communities that would be ideally set up, tribal 27 and city structures, to actually do the harvest 28 reporting through community system. 29 30 In the past, before 2010, the feeling 31 was we're not going to set up all these community 32 reporting systems because the State is going to take 33 over management. They're going to pass a 34 constitutional amendment and the State will be the 35 managers of subsistence on Federal public land once 36 again. 37 38 But since 2010 we've been told that we 39 are to act as a stand-alone, full-time, permanent 40 program, but we haven't gotten that request. I think 41 that's something that the communities and the Council 42 should consider and the managers. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Very helpful. 45 So we've gone through the whole process of all the 46 public and our procedures. Now we're looking for a 47 motion to adopt. Council. And then we can continue 48 discussion. 49 50




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1 MR. WOODRUFF: Move to adopt WP20-49. 2 3 MR. BASSICH: Second. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It's been 6 moved and seconded to adopt. Further discussion. We 7 heard what you said earlier. 8 9 MR. BASSICH: If I may, I just want to

10 reference my earlier comments to reflect my position on 11 this proposal, Madame Chair. 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thanks, Andy. 14 15 MR. BASSICH: If I may add just one 16 more thing. I don't mean to stir the pot here, but 17 when it says here is there a conservation concern, I 18 think there is to a certain extent for the biology of 19 the animal, but certainly in my mind the biggest 20 conservation concern is the conservation of spiritual 21 and cultural practices within Native Alaska tribal 22 entities. 23 24 Thank you, Madame Chair. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Charlie. 27 28 MR. JAGOW: Yeah, it might be 29 interesting to look at the harvest report data for 30 caribou. That might kind of show the lack of reporting 31 rather than the lack of harvest because I think it's 32 probably pretty safe to assume everybody in Arctic 33 Village wants caribou. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Charlie and 36 then Pippa. 37 38 MR. WRIGHT: I echo Andy's concerns 39 about data. I'm not for this. I oppose this because 40 of the lack of data and the lack of -- the amount of 41 people from all these villages are going to be 42 affected. There's only been one village here. So I 43 have concerns. I oppose this proposal. I think the 44 EIRAC should do the same. 45 46 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Other 47 discussion. Oh, Pippa. 48 49 MS. KENNER: Pippa Kenner with OSM. I 50




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1 just wanted to respond real quickly that north of the 2 Yukon River until recently people reported as a 3 community what their caribou harvest was and that 4 program hadn't been active in a while, so we didn't 5 have it except through household harvest surveys. So 6 there's no individual reporting system set up for 7 caribou north of the Yukon in most areas. It's just 8 beginning now. 9

10 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: But his point 11 is taken what he said, that there's a need. Andrew. 12 13 MR. FIRMIN: I think that if we 14 referred back to all our earlier comments of roundtable 15 discussion was good. Just for the members of the 16 audience that we make motions in a positive note and 17 then if we like them or not, vote them up or down. I 18 think we're all pretty much on the same page. 19 20 We need to defer to a working group on 21 some of this. Until we get a working group started I 22 think we should oppose this proposal for the numerous 23 reasons we pointed out. 24 25 There's lack of tribal consultation. 26 We haven't heard from enough members of the public to 27 make an adequate decision on their behalf because 28 that's who we represent. We are here representing the 29 public. One village out of five we've heard from so 30 far. 31 32 I think there needs to be more outreach 33 to them and go through the government-to-government 34 process and have a chance at tribal consultation with 35 them and then perhaps at our next meeting or something 36 we would have some more outreach through the working 37 group that we would have more input. 38 39 A lot of this I'd like to reflect what 40 they said of the cultural and spiritual significance of 41 it. It kind of reminds me of Denali wolves. Everybody 42 puts a bugger zone for the wolves of Denali and nobody 43 wants to trap them so we can go stare at them. Well, 44 who's to say that maybe that's not want we want to do 45 too. Maybe we don't need to go hunt them. Maybe I'd 46 rather just watch them and sniff the flowers. There's 47 no difference. They're comparable I should say. 48 49 For all the reasons we've put forth I 50




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1 think we should vote this proposal down and get our 2 working group going that we requested at the last

3 meeting. That consisted of, I think, Don, Charlie and

4 myself at least were the ones that volunteered to be a

5 part of at our last meeting. 6

7 That's all I have to say. 8

9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Bill. 10

11 MR. GLANZ: I've been on this Committee

12 since '05. How many votes have we done on Arctic

13 Village. I mean we say no, no, no. It's just like an

14 ex-wife or something, they keep bringing it up and

15 bringing it up. 16

17 (Laughter) 18

19 MR. GLANZ: The State's going to have

20 to give up after a while. Anyway. 21

22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone else. 23

24 (No comments) 25

26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I just want

27 to reiterate when I read Pages -- Appendix I, the

28 regulatory history, Page 116 to 123. I took all these

29 notes and it is interesting. If I was hired to do it,

30 I'd have this graph and I'd show you how many times

31 it's been asked to have a working group. Since I've

32 been on it, it would have been even back from the first

33 one at Arctic Villlage. 34

35 MR. BASSICH: 2006. 36

37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah. Then I

38 write in my notes here 2006 no working group, 2012 no

39 working group, 2014 no working group. 2018, okay,

40 let's start a working group, and here we are again.

41 I'm a little frustrated about that part. I mean I've

42 been on working groups before and they work well. So I

43 want to really reiterate on that part. 44

45 Any other discussion. 46

47 (No comments) 48

49 MR. GLANZ: Call for the question. 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The question 2 has been called for. All in favor of WP20-49, which 3 would..... 4 5 MR. WOODRUFF: Sue. 6 7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'm sorry. 8 9 MR. WOODRUFF: Did we go through all

10 these justifications? 11 12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I heard..... 13 14 MR. WOODRUFF: Andy went through one. 15 16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Do you want 17 to go through some more? The question was called for, 18 but I will allow you to do that. 19 20 MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you, Madame Chair. 21 I refer to Andy's comment on conservation concern. Is 22 the recommendation supported by substantial evidence 23 such as biological and traditional ecological 24 knowledge. I think that all the testimony this morning 25 and in the past emphasized the TEK and their biological 26 use. Whether they write it down or not, it doesn't 27 matter. 28 29 Will the recommendation be beneficial 30 or detrimental to subsistence users. No. It's going 31 to stay the same. 32 33 Will the recommendation unnecessarily 34 restrict other users. Yes, of course. Those will be 35 non-Federally qualified subsistence users. 36 37 Thank you. 38 39 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anything 40 else. 41 42 Andy. 43 44 MR. BASSICH: Point of clarification on 45 the last bullet. Will the recommendation unnecessarily 46 restrict other users. I believe it won't because 47 there's plenty of other places to go hunting sheep that 48 are currently available. Opening this doesn't really 49 unnecessarily restrict any other users, it basically 50




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1 just would open it up and make it more broad. There is 2 no unnecessary restriction because there's plenty of 3 other places to go do sheep hunting in the area. 4 5 I just wanted to make sure that went on 6 the record for our position. Madame Chair. 7 8 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 9 Anything else.

10 11 (No comments) 12 13 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I will call 14 for the question. All in favor of opening 15 non-qualified Federal subsistence users on WP20-49 say 16 aye. 17 18 (No aye votes) 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All opposed 21 same sign. 22 23 IN UNISON: Aye. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Fails 26 unanimously. I think we should take a break. We're 27 going to move to the hunter ed. The gentleman is here. 28 I think he's out talking to somebody. Let's take like 29 10 minutes and then we'll start our roundtable 30 discussion on hunter ed. 31 32 (Off record) 33 34 (On record) 35 36 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 37 So I'm hearing that it would really make more impact 38 for us on this working group if we have a motion with 39 direction to start a working group so Zach can take it 40 back to OSM and push to do something. 41 42 Zach, what did you tell me? You will 43 work to make sure this happens for us. 44 45 MR. STEVENSON: Through the past, when 46 Councils have in other regions asked to establish a 47 working group, typically the question will then follow 48 for what objective, for what purpose, over what 49 timeframe and who is responsible for doing what, what 50




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1 are the responsibilities. 2 3 Thank you, Madame Chair. 4 5 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I personally 6 feel strongly that these kind of working relationships 7 are phenomenal for people getting along and 8 understanding each other and not having to have such 9 horrible contention.

10 11 Council members. Where are they? 12 There's seven of us here, so we still have a quorum and 13 we can operate. Andy. 14 15 MR. BASSICH: Yeah, I guess I'll get 16 the ball rolling here. I'd like to make a motion that 17 we foster a working group to work on the issues in 18 Arctic Village and the Arctic Village Sheep Management 19 Area and to bring ADF&G, OSM, people from Arctic 20 Village and Eastern RAC representation together to work 21 on the issues of the Red Sheep Management Area. That 22 this working group be formed in a very fast manner so 23 that we can begin to work on these issues prior to 24 Board of Game meetings this coming spring. 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I hear the 27 motion and you were specific to the Arctic Village 28 Sheep Management Area. Can I have you ask for the 29 areas where the three sheep limit was also. I feel, as 30 your Chair, very strongly that we need to be 31 conservative about sheep populations. That's just 32 something that happened a long time ago when it was put 33 on the books and I think it also needs to be talked 34 about. You just versed specific to the Arctic Village 35 Sheep Management Area. 36 37 MR. BASSICH: No, it's dealing with the 38 region, but I'm using that because we usually address 39 this as the Arctic Village Sheep Management. I mean 40 that's what I see in the publications speaking about 41 it. The working group would be formed to work out 42 issues regarding sheep in the region. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Is 45 there a second. 46 47 MR. WRIGHT: I'll second. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The motion 50




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1 has been made and seconded. Would you like to help us 2 out? 3 4 MR. DOOLITTLE: I would, Madame Chair. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That would be 7 wonderful. Thank you. 8 9 MR. DOOLITTLE: Tom Doolittle, Acting

10 Assistant Regional Director for OSM, through the Chair. 11 One of the things, if you notice the history of working 12 groups, a good example would be the Western Arctic 13 Caribou Herd Working Group, is that those have been 14 cooperatively sanctioned through cooperation with the 15 State and not done independently of OSM. So really it 16 needs to be a lead from ADF&G as one of the principals 17 of wildlife management so we do it in a cooperative 18 way. 19 20 So at least I'd like to have the 21 thought of allowing OSM and the State to discuss this 22 if we could about the process on how we'd envision 23 something like this to potentially work. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I thought 26 that's what Andy said when he added Fish and Game. 27 Andy, do you want to elaborate. 28 29 MR. BASSICH: No, that's exactly what 30 I'm saying. I was trying to identify the entities most 31 involved in this, which is ADF&G, OSM, Fish and 32 Wildlife Service. I left them out. The people in the 33 region, Arctic Village, Venetie, Fort Yukon, 34 Chalkyitsik and also members of the RAC here, who we 35 are under the program representing those people and 36 they're currently not represented in a seat here. So 37 we should also be involved in that since this comes 38 before us all the time. 39 40 I think the important thing is it needs 41 to be done in a timely manner. We can't push this off 42 for something that happens starting next year. This is 43 something that needs to be started now and try and 44 gather as much information and build as much of a 45 coalition and understanding and agreements so that when 46 Board of Game and the Federal program meet for their 47 meetings they have the best available information from 48 all the parties involved. 49 50




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1 MR. DOOLITTLE: Thank you, Andy. 2 Through the Chair. One of the things before, 3 obviously, OSM will respond to the request for the RAC 4 on any issue, but again in that decision of commitment 5 from OSM is that please understand that OSM needs to 6 have that dialogue with the partners for the time that 7 it takes and the bringing together the parties and the 8 planning part of an initiative like this. 9

10 I just want you to know that OSM will 11 respond to the ask of the Council and within the 12 confines and the scope of the Federal program and what 13 we can do and to be very frank on what we can't do. I 14 want to at least make sure that you have my full 15 attention and OSM's full attention on the issue and we 16 don't disagree with your premise, but again we have to 17 look through the process of it and the commitments and 18 the timing and to try and make sure that we form a 19 response more formally to this body so you have 20 something that you can hold in your hand about outcome 21 and progress on this issue. 22 23 Thank you, Madame Chair. 24 25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy. 26 27 MR. BASSICH: Thank you. I appreciate 28 that. I understand that, given the long, drawn-out 29 process in the Federal and, to a certain extent, the 30 State program. That concerns me a little bit and I 31 think one of the things in the back of my mind is that 32 if we can't get this working group working prior to 33 some of these meetings, that at least there should be 34 discussion about delaying any hard decisions on these 35 regulatory proposals until such time as a working group 36 can be formed and better inform both the Board of Game 37 and the Federal Subsistence Board. 38 39 MR. DOOLITTLE: One part of a response 40 to that, Andy, is once a proposal has been submitted a 41 legal regulatory clock is set into motion and the only 42 way that a proposal can be withdrawn is by the 43 proponent themselves. So it still would have to go 44 through our process and timing. 45 46 Again, your testimony about the 47 decision or the potential for a Board to defer, again I 48 can't make a -- be pre-decisional about -- and 49 obviously make a decision for the Federal Subsistence 50




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1 Board in any manner, but again there's other options 2 that the Board can use as long as that information is 3 presented to them for a decision. 4 5 Please realize that it is within a 6 regulatory framework and within a timeline that's been 7 set into motion legally. 8 9 Thank you.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Well, I want 12 to add it means for me, me personally, a lot to have 13 something working prior to the Board of Game meeting 14 and to be able to talk about Proposal 82 that we 15 submitted and to have the people from this region be 16 able to be a part of that. To me that's vital. 17 18 Board of Game doesn't meet in that 19 region for three more years. This is to me very 20 important with the sheep conservation because of the -- 21 you know, they found some amoeba in sheep and I think 22 it's important that we start talking about stuff that 23 affects sheep. 24 25 And we should -- if it was up to me and 26 I was the one that could hammer the thing out, there 27 wouldn't be a winter sheep season on the State side 28 period because I just don't think -- it was designed to 29 be for the people in the area and now people, oh, look 30 at that, we can go there and then people start going. 31 32 I think just for sheep conservation it 33 means a lot to me to be sure we're working on that now 34 before the Board of Game. I mean I feel strongly. You 35 want to talk about passion. I feel pretty strongly 36 about this. I want to see sheep there. I don't want 37 to see something crazy happen and nothing can happen 38 for three more years. 39 40 That I would add and I ask you all 41 could you agree that that would be part of our concern? 42 43 MR. BASSICH: Absolutely. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Donald. 46 47 MR. WOODRUFF: Sue, were you part of a 48 sheep working group? 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: For the 2 State? 3 4 MR. WOODRUFF: Yeah. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I sat in on 7 it and somebody else from this Council sat in on it. 8 It might have been Virgil. Yes, I sat in on it and the 9 coordinator who talked about wood bison, I don't see

10 him sitting here right now, but he was the -- he 11 coordinated a whole process and he was so proud that 12 he's always had people work and have a solution at the 13 end. We didn't get it from that sheep group. It 14 stopped and he didn't get a consensus like he was 15 working for. 16 17 I think maybe if they had more money 18 and time and they wouldn't have -- they kept trying to 19 reinvent the wheel in my opinion when I saw -- you 20 know, you get going down the road and then you start 21 going somewhere and somebody took them back all the 22 time. That doesn't work for coming to a consensus. 23 But, yes, I was on it. I wish we had a recording of it 24 because it was very enlightening. 25 26 MR. DOOLITTLE: Madame Chair. It 27 sounds like it's a career goal for us both. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: But I'm a 30 volunteer. 31 32 (Laughter) 33 34 MR. DOOLITTLE: Well understood. 35 36 MR. BASSICH: Madame Chair. 37 38 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Uh-huh. 39 40 MR. BASSICH: Before we vote on the 41 motion do we need any more clarification for moving 42 forward? Do we need goals or objectives? 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'd like to 45 ask OSM that. 46 47 MR. BASSICH: That's what I'm asking. 48 Because before we vote on it I'd like to make sure that 49 we make sure that they understand exactly what we're 50




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1 asking for and what some of our expectations would be. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So we're 4 asking Tom Doolittle again. We want to make sure it's 5 clear what we're asking. Is it clear? 6 7 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yes. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay.

10 11 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yes, what you're asking 12 is clear, but I wanted to also make sure that you, 13 process-wise, understand that we, again, address the 14 asks of the Regional Advisory Council and then engage 15 with our partners to provide a response back to this 16 Council about progress or whether you agree with the 17 process that we've set up to go -- again, we have to 18 address this with our partners at ADF&G as well and our 19 tribal organizations as well. 20 21 MR. BASSICH: That's clearly understood 22 to me. I would hope that we would not wait until our 23 next meeting to get that response. I would ask that 24 that be transmitted through our coordinator and that 25 the coordinator inform the Council through emails or 26 other methods what the decisions are that are being 27 made on a timely basis. 28 29 MR. DOOLITTLE: With that, Mr. 30 Stevenson. 31 32 (Laughter) 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Go ahead. 35 36 MR. STEVENSON: Through the Chair, 37 responding to Mr. Doolittle. That is understood. 38 Would it be appropriate to use correspondence as the 39 way to track that follow up? 40 41 Thank you, Madame Chair. 42 43 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yes, we'll use our 44 correspondence, but we'll act on that in a timely 45 fashion, but that means also that I have to meet with 46 our State and tribal partners obviously. We have a 47 consultation process that's involved and we'll be going 48 beyond our traditional consultation, but to a more 49 formal consultation process that we discussed before on 50




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1 Red Sheep and Cane Creek. So we want to make sure that 2 we engage those parties in that discussion as well. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I'm 7 getting notes all the time. I want to make sure. If 8 we sent a letter to the Federal Subsistence Board 9 calling for support of this working group, would it

10 even get to them in time? 11 12 MR. DOOLITTLE: Yes, as long as Mr. 13 Stevenson can draft that up, which I know he will in a 14 timely way and then we can address that and at least 15 provide that information to the Board. 16 17 MR. STEVENSON: Madame Chair. Through 18 the Chair. I believe we don't yet have a motion on the 19 record or a vote to establish..... 20 21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We have a 22 motion on the floor made by Andy and seconded by 23 Charlie Wright. 24 25 MR. STEVENSON: Thank you very much. 26 27 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We're trying 28 to just give you all the direction that you need. That 29 letter would be added to the Federal Board, so it would 30 go out ASAP. 31 32 MR. STEVENSON: Understood. Thank you. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Donald. 35 36 MR. WOODRUFF: Referring to who and 37 what responsibilities in the timeline, I think we just 38 discussed about who would be part of the working group, 39 but we didn't say what members of the Council. Is it 40 going to be the same ones that volunteered the last 41 meeting or somebody else wants to jump in there and 42 tell us how they feel about it. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Council 45 members, I don't have any trouble with being the same 46 three. It was Donald, Charlie and Charlie, yeah? 47 48 MR. JAGOW: Keep in mind I'm going to 49 be out of communication for the rest of the winter. 50




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1 I'm probably not going to be any good or any help. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That's too 4 bad. 5 6 MR. WOODRUFF: Andrew volunteered last 7 time. 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Also Andrew.

10 11 MR. FIRMIN: The minutes say Charlie 12 Jagow. 13 14 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I must have 15 got the wrong Charlie. Okay, so you three. Is that 16 good for everybody? 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I bet you I 21 thought you should be there because you work up there. 22 This is great. Are you all in agreement? We got that 23 down. What else did we miss? 24 25 MR. PAPPAS: Madame Chair. George 26 Pappas, OSM. I have a comment about timeline. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes, go 29 ahead. 30 31 MR. PAPPAS: Good afternoon. For the 32 Board meeting, comments will be due February 21st and 33 I'll work with Ben Mulligan and the Board Support 34 Section to determine if it's to be a three or 35 five-minute presentation allowed at the Board of Game 36 meeting. 37 38 Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: George, you 41 need to repeat it because somebody had a mic on and you 42 broke up. Let's turn our mics off, everyone. 43 44 MR. PAPPAS: I apologize. I heard the 45 mention of timeline. The comments that are due for 46 this proposal for the Board meeting that's coming up, 47 the comments will have to be finalized and submitted by 48 the 21st of February. 49 50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: George, your 2 boss was here and he told us that we can do it through

3 -- what do they call it? 4

5 MR. BASSICH: RCs. 6

7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: RCs. So

8 we've got it covered. 9

10 MR. PAPPAS: Thank you very much. 11

12 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Thank you.

13 Anything else. 14

15 MR. BASSICH: Call the question. 16

17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: The question

18 has been called for. All in favor of pushing this

19 working group in a positive manner say aye. 20

21 IN UNISON: Aye. 22

23 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Anyone

24 opposed. 25

26 (No opposing votes) 27

28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Hearing none.

29 Motion passes unanimously. Okay. Working group for

30 the hunter ed. Time to start. 31

32 MR. FIRMIN: Working groups are getting

33 me confused. The minutes say Mr. Firmin, Mr. Woodruff

34 and Mr. Jagow. That was for the Board of Game proposal

35 on sheep. It's a different working group. 36

37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That's

38 probably why I got confused. So I can feel a little

39 better about that. I would like to call everybody up

40 that was at these last two groups and the working group

41 meeting a year ago or whenever it was. Pull your

42 chairs up. This is an effort not to see the ball drop,

43 to continue. I would have liked to have had it come

44 right after Katya's report, but that did not happen due

45 to all these changes in the agenda, people's time,

46 whether they could or could not be here. 47

48 (Pause) 49

50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Katya, can 2 you just kind of remember where we left off so you can 3 get this thing started. 4 5 MS. WESSELS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 6 We're just here together. You know, you heard my 7 presentation this morning about what's been done on the 8 Hunter Ethics Education Initiative. Madame Chair 9 wanted to have this roundtable discussion to see how we

10 can move that initiative forward. What kind of ideas 11 people have. We need to be realistic on what can be 12 accomplished. We want to move forward slowly, but we 13 want to move forward. 14 15 As we go around this room and hear 16 people's thoughts, we want to hear suggestions that can 17 actually be accomplished to move at least one of the 18 pilot projects forward, maybe two of them. If you want 19 to take this initiative in different direction, those 20 suggestions would be welcome too, but we really want 21 something concrete I believe. If I'm wrong, Sue, maybe 22 you can correct me. 23 24 We already have three concepts 25 developed. Maybe we want to move three of them 26 forward. We need everybody's minds put together and 27 also the Council wants to keep the initiative up front 28 and center so the subject is not forgotten because it's 29 very important. 30 31 As we can see from the last two 32 workshops that there were lots of participants in those 33 workshops, so the issue is a burning issue for many 34 people. Perhaps if we talk it will have safe space to 35 talk with people to express their thoughts that we can 36 move forward together. 37 38 Thank you. 39 40 MR. BASSICH: Thank you, Katya. It's 41 always good to see everybody back here talking about 42 this. It's been a long process, but I really feel like 43 we're starting to get the ball rolling a little bit. 44 We heard the discussion on the liaison project and that 45 it's moving forward. So I think it's really important 46 to continue to build on that, fine-tuned it. 47 48 As Andrew brought up, there's some 49 issues there that need to be fine-tuned with that 50




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1 particular project. maybe, as Don recommended, begin to 2 expand it and another community like Eagle and there 3 may be some other communities that would want to be 4 involved. In doing so, it's very important to bring in 5 the partnerships of the entities, the agencies that 6 are working in those areas for that liaison project. 7 8 In my mind, thinking about this when we 9 were talking about putting this on the agenda, probably

10 the most important thing that I think we need as our 11 next step is to begin to look for outside funding. It's 12 very clear that State/Federal funding is very limited 13 and often times comes with a lot of requirements to 14 make it happen. 15 16 It doesn't mean that it won't happen, 17 but I think it's really incumbent upon us if we want to 18 proceed we're going to have to start looking for 19 outside funding primarily for meetings to formulate 20 very strong project ideas and I think that's probably 21 the may need right now. It's going to be very important 22 that we meet as a minimum I would think once a year, 23 preferably twice a year, to continue to keep these 24 initiatives alive and to further develop the detailed 25 proposals. 26 27 Number one, we need to get a little bit 28 more funding outside of State agencies. Number two, I 29 think the real goal is to take one of the other 30 initiatives like the one with the military, Be That 31 Hunter, and begin to develop very detailed proposals 32 so that when people are going to commit as agencies the 33 time or money oh, they know exactly what the goals are, 34 what the objectives are, who the players are, and what 35 it's going to entail. 36 37 Those are my thoughts and that's just 38 get the ball rolling, talking here at the table. I 39 think it's really important to here from everybody what 40 their thoughts are oh, how we should move forward and 41 maybe we could just open up with a brief discussion 42 about the possibilities of other funding sources and 43 how to reach out to them and what we want to reach out 44 to them as our goal so that they know what they're 45 spending their money on. That's really important. 46 47 Thank you. 48 49 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: This is time 50




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1 to just reach out and talk. You don't have to raise 2 your hand. Just speak up. 3

4 MR. HAWKALUK: Madame Chair. Members

5 of the Council. Nathan Hawkaluk, Deputy Refuge Manager

6 at Arctic. So just recently I moved over to Arctic

7 Refuge from Yukon Flats, about four months ago. Before

8 that I was pretty involved in the Community Liaison

9 Project, so I have a little background on that and kind

10 of its evolution over time. 11

12 I guess to stay on the funding topic,

13 it has been solely funded by the Yukon Flats National

14 Wildlife Refuge for the past two years. It's not super

15 expensive at this time. I think we're still kind of

16 learning the costs as the project builds. Per

17 community it's fairly affordable. I guess what I'm

18 saying is it doesn't need to take a lot of partners.

19 It just depends on where we feel it's vital to do it

20 at. That's why Circle was a great test case this year

21 just demonstrating some of the viability of it out

22 there, I guess. 23

24 We did bring in some other partners at

25 Circle this year. Doyon was more involved this year.

26 They had a member that was tied in and provided some

27 feedback. We could talk to the Park Service as well.

28 We talked to Alaska Professional Hunters Association as

29 well. They provided some feedback. Nobody came

30 necessarily with funding, but it was just our effort to

31 kind of pull in more partners to get more ideas, get

32 more involvement. 33

34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: What did APHA

35 do? 36

37 MR. HAWKALUK: They joined us on a

38 conference call and provided some input, gave us a

39 little information about their organization. As much

40 as anything, they're tied into the Professional Hunters

41 and they could get information out. This was specific

42 to maybe letting them know that these projects were

43 going on in these specific communities. 44

45 Also a big component of it is the

46 potential for donation and just let them know that

47 there was a place to do that. Unfortunately, I don't

48 think I was able to follow up with them before I moved

49 on to different places. That was kind of the design 50




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1 behind getting them involved because they have a better 2 communication avenue to those groups than we do. 3 4 MR. BASSICH: That brings up a really 5 good question. If we're out seeking outside funding 6 through private organizations, what's the funding path? 7 They're going to want to know who do I send this money 8 to and who is responsible for taking care of it. 9 That's something that I think is pretty important for

10 the foundation just to have a way of accounting. 11 12 Do you have any ideas? Is that 13 something one of the agencies can do? 14 15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Andy, I want 16 to tell you. You didn't call Bass Pro, right? 17 18 MR. BASSICH: No, I didn't. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I did. 21 I was looking for funding. So I know somebody that 22 worked for Cabela's and took me two years to find out 23 Bass Pro bought Cabela's. At any rate, this person is 24 a booking agent for a program called TAGS, so I knew 25 him and I called him and he said you've got to go to 26 the corporate office at Bass Pro. So I called Bass Pro 27 and I said, oh, I'm looking for funding for this cool 28 project in Alaska for hunter education and I got a 29 bloody recording and the recording -- they said, oh, 30 yeah, we'll get you that person and that person said 31 that you have to be a 301 -- or what is it? 32 33 MR. WOODRUFF: 501(c)(3). 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: 501(c)(3). 36 And you have to have the name of the group and what the 37 project is and we love to do things for this kind of 38 thing. Then it has to go to a group before they agree 39 to fund this, so it sounded like a month or months of 40 work to get funding out of them. We don't have a 41 501(c)(3). 42 43 MR. GRASSER: Before you ask any 44 foundation or funder for money you ought to know how 45 much you're asking for. So we probably need to create 46 a budget. 47 48 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: That sounds 49 interesting. 50




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1 MR. BASSICH: I agree. I think what 2 we'd need to know, A, is how the monies are going to be 3 moved, but what's the cost involved in bringing these 4 entities together. I'm talking about us to then 5 develop these programs. It's quite obvious to me we've 6 been able to kind of piggyback it onto Eastern RAC 7 meetings in the past, but if we're going to move 8 forward, we're going to have to have meetings. I don't 9 expect OSM to be able to carry the burden of these

10 meetings or ADF&G. 11 12 What we're asking for initially is 13 money to continue to develop these projects. You kind 14 of have to have that money to get the people together 15 before we can move on to other projects. We have one 16 that's working well and agencies are picking up a lot 17 of the costs of that or most of the cost of that, but 18 if we're going to move into the other ones, it's going 19 to take a little bit more because they're bigger 20 projects, they're more involved and it's going to take 21 a little bit more planning to do well and that means 22 more meeting. 23 24 So initially we need funding for 25 meetings to develop the proposals to then initiate in 26 the public. 27 28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Unless it 29 could be done like this where we're all here anyway and 30 then work through -- it's a pilot project that we 31 started to start with. 32 33 MR. STEVENSON: Or telephonic. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah, even 36 telephonically. But this is really good because we're 37 all here and it's a little bit easier to do things. As 38 you were speaking, I was thinking, man, it sounds like 39 we've got to create another working group to answer 40 those questions. In the meantime, with the Federal 41 agencies that can do projects like you did, it seems 42 like that could continue. 43 44 MR. HAWKALUK: If I could add a little 45 bit that I failed to mention earlier is at the time 46 Yukon Flats had an annual funding agreement with CATG, 47 Council of Athabaskan Tribal Governments, and basically 48 we crafted a pretty simple scope of work that outlined 49 kind of the goals and objectives of the community 50




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1 liaison and gave it to them and they agreed that they 2 could do that work for us essentially and we provided 3 the funding as part of a larger funding effort. It was 4 really pretty simple in that sense. Obviously there's 5 some kinks that need to be worked out of it in some 6 locations. I don't know if CATG is a 501(c)(3). I'm 7 looking at you, Carrie. 8 9 MS. STEVENS: Can I answer that

10 question. This is another really important issue in 11 the philanthropic community, but tribal governments are 12 tax exempt under Code 7871(c) of the IRS codes. So if 13 you partner with tribes and you educate the funder, 14 then you don't need a 501(c)(3) because you can just 15 use a tribal government. 16 17 MR. HAWKALUK: And CATG falls under 18 that definition, correct? 19 20 MS. STEVENS: Yes, 7871(c), but they 21 also have a 501(c)(3). You could just partner with 22 tribes. 23 24 MR. HAWKALUK: Yeah. So I'm just 25 throwing it out there as an option as well so we again 26 don't -- Fish and Wildlife Service, Federal agency, 27 whatever it might be, doesn't have to be the only 28 funding source. There is that nonprofit nexus to it. 29 30 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So do we need 31 to develop? 32 33 MR. GRASSER: Well, somebody must know 34 how much this meeting costs. For this to be put on it 35 must have a cost associated with it. 36 37 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: How much did 38 our last one cost? 39 40 MS. WESSELS: Well, we have a 41 preliminary bulk budget, but nothing was developed in 42 details. During the last work group different 43 organizations volunteered to be on the smaller 44 subcommittees to develop the projects. The matter is 45 that it requires like at least one person to pull 46 together that subcommittee so they can get together and 47 talk about the details of the project. 48 49 The concept is a concept, but you can 50




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1 go anywhere with a concept. Working with the military. 2 What does that entail. Does it entail that different 3 agencies, like Fish and Wildlife, BLM, NPS, organize a 4 program. Is it a monthly program, a once a year 5 program. Going to the military bases and letting the 6 people who are new to the base to find out what's going 7 on. Or is it developing some materials, is it 8 developing brochures, is it developing the website. 9

10 Just like in my presentation I said OSM 11 can have a little thing going. We can provide the link 12 to their sources that have already been developed. 13 We're talking about developing new products or programs 14 or working with other people that will require a little 15 bit more thought. 16 17 Like I said, we started with the 18 involvement of the military personnel. We started 19 meeting with the subcommittee before previous RAC 20 meeting, but we didn't follow through because basically 21 Vince and I ran out of time because we were working on 22 other projects besides that one. 23 24 MS. STEVENS: Sue, this is Carrie. If 25 I could just answer your question. I would highly 26 advise against forming another 501(c)(3). That's an 27 insane amount of administrative work. I think that 28 there are many organizations that you could partner and 29 sponsor with and funders also love that. Tanana Chiefs 30 Conference can serve as a nonprofit. 31 32 Looking at Brooke and putting her on 33 the spot to serve as a project sponsor over at Tanana 34 Chiefs Conference and the Hunting and Fishing Task 35 Force here in the Interior for the statewide projects 36 we also mentioned the Alaska Humanities Forum could 37 serve as a partner. 38 39 Brooke could also speak to their work 40 in Salmon Fellows, which is a relationship-building 41 program similar to some of the concepts she's mentioned 42 statewide or other nonprofits in other regions you want 43 to work. But I would work in a partnership with 44 existing nonprofits. Creating a new one is more work 45 than it's worth. 46 47 Thank you. 48 49 MR. GRASSER: Sue, I wasn't really 50




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1 saying we should create a new entity. I was saying 2 before you go to an existing entity you need to know 3 what your budget is or what you're asking for, how it's 4 going to be spent. Otherwise you're probably going to 5 strike out. 6 7 MR. BASSICH: I was just asking Katya 8 approximately what the cost was for getting the 9 previous meetings together that we had and she said

10 anywhere between five and ten thousand dollars 11 depending on how big those meetings were. If you 12 remember the first one, it was a relatively small focus 13 group. The second one was over 40 people and the third 14 one was kind of a committee of seven or eight, nine 15 people, which I'm sure could be done very cheaply 16 piggybacking to the RAC. 17 18 If we're going to develop -- I think 19 the other thing we discussed was that when you go to 20 develop a project you really have to do it in a 21 committee format. You can develop great ideas in a 22 large body where you get a lot of input. Once you go 23 to developing a project that's very, very important 24 that it's delegated down to a smaller committee so you 25 don't get bogged down with so many different ideas that 26 you lose your efficiency. 27 28 Maybe in the future what we need to do 29 is think about pulling the larger body together once a 30 year to project these ideas, develop these concepts and 31 then have a second working group who wants to volunteer 32 for that particular proposal to then develop detailed 33 project goals, objectives and budgets. 34 35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So this was 36 an effort not to let the ball drop, but -- yeah, Tom. 37 38 MR. DOOLITTLE: Just real quick. Just 39 a general comment. I'm very supportive of Katya and 40 what this Council is doing. Just a little bit of 41 background. For the past 26 years I've been a 42 volunteer hunter ed instructor in Anchorage. I've 43 taught over 100 classes. I taught a hunter ed class 44 last weekend and a hunter ed class the weekend before. 45 Anyway, I think this is wonderful. I've served on the 46 Steering Group for Fish and Game twice, chaired both 47 times. Anyway, a really good process and I'm 48 definitely very supportive of what you're doing. 49 50




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1 Thank you. 2 3 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I have a 4 memory of the time when we met as a group besides the 5 working group or whenever it was. One of the villages 6 had this piece of paper of their whole connection to 7 the wildlife and the land and that. It was really 8 informative. That's one of the things I thought I'd 9 like -- just like this thing that was handed out from

10 CATG, was it, that put that brochure together. I mean 11 that's the kind of stuff that we need to start with, I 12 think, that you're able to get that stuff out to 13 people. 14 15 Remember the first meeting, was it Bob 16 Hunter, the Fish and Game -- man, the material the 17 Department has now that's been added it's unbelievable 18 the material. That full curl. There's a ton. He 19 brought all this bags of stuff. There's a lot of stuff 20 that's already done. It's just getting it out. I'm 21 looking for direction, you guys, if you have some 22 ideas. 23 24 This is a pilot project. It's not the 25 whole state. It's just our region. It's small now and 26 our hope was that it would move to even bigger. 27 28 MR. HAWKALUK: Just real quick. I 29 guess the ultimate goal to kicking it off is really 30 getting a little seed money to the CATG and 31 subsequently to the communities and hoping that they'd 32 see the value in it and they'd really buy into what the 33 effort was all about and they'd support it and perhaps 34 make requests to continue to do it. 35 36 An important aspect of that as well was 37 kind of creating their own community message. I think 38 that's what you see there with that CATG thing. We 39 could craft all sorts of information and handouts, but 40 I think the important aspect is that it is community 41 developed. 42 43 That was a good step, I think. That 44 was missing the first year with some kind of handout. 45 It was nice to see that they developed it this year and 46 I think they have some signage as well. I think Doyon 47 came through with some signage at Circle. 48 49 Again, a little bit ownership, a little 50




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1 buy-in from the communities goes a long way. I'm 2 hopeful that they'll see the value in it and we'll just 3 be a partner and support their efforts in the future. 4 Whether that's happening or not, I'm not sure, but I 5 guess that's kind of the end goal with this, is kind of 6 turn ownership over to the communities and the villages 7 there set the benefit from it really. 8 9 MR. BASSICH: So it occurs to me that

10 as we move forward though -- you know, Katya is 11 overwhelmed with what she's doing. She's been kind of 12 the point of contact throughout this whole thing and 13 Vince has volunteered a tremendous amount of his time 14 to help organize and be a point of contact. 15 16 I'm not sure what his availability is, 17 but it seems like to move forward we need to develop a 18 fairly reliable point of contact so that as we have 19 these discussions, whether they be just over the phone 20 or through email we get the right people and engage in 21 the conversations and I'm thinking primarily in terms 22 of funding. 23 24 It's pretty hard for someone like me to 25 go to someone and ask them for money for this 26 initiative and they ask me, okay, how much do you need. 27 I tell them that amount. Where do I send it. Oh, 28 well, just write me a check. I don't think that's 29 going to happen very well. 30 31 So that's what I mean by we need a 32 point of contact, someone who when I go to entities and 33 I ask them for money, it's reliable, there's accounting 34 for it and that person or that entity, that agency, 35 that organization, if it's tribal. It doesn't really 36 matter, but it needs to be someone who is consistent so 37 that as we try and keep the momentum going on this, we 38 make sure that communication goes out to everyone who 39 wants to be involved because it's not mandatory. It's 40 all volunteer. 41 42 But it's going to be very important 43 that the communications get transmitted out and that 44 people who want to be engaged and participate are well 45 informed so that we don't fizzle just from a lack of 46 communication. 47 48 I guess what I'm asking for is there an 49 entity here, an agency, tribal organization that could 50




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1 help us with that initial point of contact anyway. 2 That's the crucial thing that I see right now. 3 4 MR. FIRMIN: I think TCC would be the 5 best go-between right now for everything and asking 6 money of Doyon would be the biggest landholder in the 7 Yukon Flats. For one it's protecting their own 8 shareholders and their own lands and getting that word 9 out there through them would be a good funding source

10 to start with. 11 12 Once you have that segue going and the 13 partnership between the local tribes, which are all 14 signatories of TCC, Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, 15 you have a good basis to have tribes sign on 16 individually. Then once you get a pot of money say 17 here's 10 grand, go do this project and we expect a 18 report at the end of September. 19 20 MR. BASSICH: So let's volunteer TCC to 21 be our POC. Is there anybody here that represents them 22 that would say yes or no? 23 24 (Laughter) 25 26 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Brooke. 27 28 MS. WOODS: Having been part of the 29 hunter ethics project, I think that's a great idea. 30 I'm sure we are capable of doing that. 31 32 MS. STEVENS: I have one other -- well, 33 I have a couple other passions besides data. I do 34 think that's a great idea but I also worry about like 35 funding equity because the tribes are overworked and 36 underfunded, just like the State and the Feds, so I do 37 think it's excellent. 38 39 I just worry like Brooke's list is 40 pretty long and so is Ben's, which is why he's not 41 here, but I think it would be good if you have a small 42 committee that if there's TCC, someone who is 43 accountable from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and 44 someone who's accountable from ADF&G to serve together, 45 even if they're the point of contact and they could 46 handle funds because they're certainly capable of that, 47 but that there's equal accountability staff-wise 48 between all three entities would be I think a good way 49 to move forward. 50




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1 It's not just all on one or two people 2 or one agency. Like this is another thing on your 3 plate and you didn't see it through. I think that 4 would be ideal in my mind to have someone who is 5 assigned from Fish and Wildlife and someone who is 6 assigned from ADF&G if possible. I could just assign 7 you. Eddie, assign somebody. Katya, assign somebody. 8 I think that's to create equity in the project that 9 everybody is putting in time and effort.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Zach, go 12 ahead. You're allowed to talk. 13 14 MR. STEVENSON: Through the Chair. As 15 the coordinator for this Council I would be happy to 16 provide that facilitation at the Council's request. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: At our 21 request. Okay. 22 23 MS. WESSELS: So I want to say as long 24 as my time allows I'm going to continue seeing this 25 project through. I'm not trying to get away from that. 26 I enjoy working with everyone. I think it's a very 27 important issue. It's great that Zach is willing to 28 back me up because if I'm pulled to do the regulatory 29 duties, we cannot just say we're not going to do that, 30 that there's somebody else who can help to see the 31 project through. So it's not dropped like what 32 happened with the military project in a way this year. 33 34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah, that's 35 important. So that means we have two people helping us 36 out. 37 38 MS. WESSELS: Yeah. 39 40 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I like that 41 idea. 42 43 MS. WESSELS: Yeah, I believe that OSM 44 can commit some of the time to two people to work on 45 this issue. Eddie, if you have somebody in the F&G 46 with whom we can work, that would be great if you can 47 let us know who that is. 48 49 MR. GRASSER: I'll look into it. 50




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Page

142

1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So it's a 2 committee, right? 3

4 MS. STEVENS: Who is the gentleman, I

5 apologize, he came to the first -- he was your

6 information officer here in Fairbanks and he was

7 awesome at ADF&G? 8

9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Bob Hunter? 10

11 MS. STEVENS: Or Jeff? Who's Jeff?

12 Did I just mess that name up? All the stuff and all

13 the examples. 14

15 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Hunter ed

16 guy. 17

18 MS. STEVENS: Hunter ed. 19

20 MR. GRASSER: Mike Taras. 21

22 MS. STEVENS: Mike, yeah. He was

23 really awesome. He was really awesome. 24

25 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER:

26 (Indiscernible - away from mic). 27

28 MR. GRASSER: I'm not sure we can get

29 Mike up because he's doing education programs for the

30 Department. 31

32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: He couldn't

33 do it you're saying? 34

35 MR. GRASSER: Probably not. 36

37 MS. STEVENS: He just had the most

38 knowledge of like existing programs, so we're not just

39 recreating the wheel. That was all just to serve as a

40 point of contact for ADF&G. Because he educated me on

41 so many things I didn't know already existed and we

42 were talking about recreating them at the first

43 meeting. 44

45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Uh-huh

46 (affirmative). 47

48 MS. STEVENS: Do you remember that? 49

50




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1 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Oh, yeah. 2 3 MS. WESSELS: Well, Hunter also 4 participated in a lot of the meetings as well. I think 5 he's knowledgeable of the issues in the Eastern 6 Interior. I don't know what his workload is. 7 8 MR. GRASSER: Through the Chair. So 9 Bob Hunter is with Hunter Education, Hunter Information

10 and Training Section in the State. Mike Taras is a 11 wildlife educator. So there's two different sections. 12 13 MS. STEVENS: I move that you assign 14 them both. I'm just kidding. 15 16 (Laughter) 17 18 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Eddie, is 19 there a place on the internet that all that material 20 that ADF&G has that you can find it? 21 22 MR. GRASSER: Yeah, almost all of it is 23 on the website. Actually we just created a new 24 website. It will be active starting the first of 25 January. You can go on and do a survey right now. As 26 some of you may know, we have a lot of -- or have had a 27 lot of extra (indiscernible) money and we 28 (indiscernible) in the last Administration. In our 29 goal to try and not do that, we've instituted a bunch 30 of access projects in partnership with DNR and other 31 groups. 32 33 So we created a portal on the website, 34 it's kind of like Capsis. I don't know if anybody has 35 used Capsis in this room. It's a process where you can 36 nominate legislation to the Legislature for budgetary 37 items or the House Finance Committee or Senate Finance 38 Committee. 39 40 So the portal we created is an access 41 portal and members of the public can go onto that 42 website within the structure of our website and 43 nominate access projects to the Department for funding. 44 45 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Actually Fish 46 and Game was one that never got a budget cut because 47 we're self-sustained, right? 48 49 MR. GRASSER: We had some budget cuts 50




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1 in General Fund section and Com Fish took a pretty good 2 hit. Our division was spared a lot of the cutting 3 because we don't have a lot of General Fund dollars 4 involved. So Fish and Game's management here in Alaska 5 is basically funded by people that shoot or hunt or 6 both. 7 8 9 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Or fish.

10 Fishing? 11 12 MR. GRASSER: Sport Fish Division is 13 covered by people that sport fish. The Federal 14 matching entity there is Dingell-Johnson money and 15 Wallop-Breaux money. 16 17 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Which is 18 three to one. 19 20 MR. GRASSER: Three to one. Basically 21 we're the only agency in the State that's self-funded 22 in those two divisions. 23 24 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So you can 25 provide us that portal web address? 26 27 MR. GRASSER: Yeah, we can. 28 29 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'd love to 30 see it. I'm sure everybody would. So giving it to our 31 coordinator and Katya would be great. 32 33 MS. WESSELS: Yeah, this is what -- I'm 34 glad to hear about that, Eddie, because that's what I 35 was talking about. Before I know that there's a lot of 36 products that have been developed by ADF&G. It was 37 very hard to find them. They were in different places 38 on the huge website. So if there is all this material 39 is pulled together in one spot, that would be great. 40 41 That's what I was going to suggest to 42 do on our Federal Subsistence Management Program 43 website, to put all these links to all these resources 44 that have been developed. 45 46 MR. GRASSER: Yeah, we have a lot of 47 stuff on the internet or on the web, but it's not 48 necessarily user-friendly. 49 50




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1 MS. WESSELS: And we want to make it 2 user-friendly. 3 4 MR. GRASSER: Correct. 5 6 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Vince. 7 8 MR. MATHEWS: As most of you know, I 9 don't remain silent very long. We're going through a

10 reorganization with Refuges, but I think Refuges would 11 need to be kept informed through Zach on the 12 coordination of this committee. I'll call it an 13 oversight committee that I think Carrie was talking 14 about with TCC. 15 16 I think it needs to be re-emphasized 17 just because it needs to be that this is a hunter 18 ethics group that's for all groups involved. So that 19 message has to be clearly shared out there. I wish I 20 could say a firm commitment that Refuges would have a 21 staff person involved in it. I can't do that right 22 now, but I'm sure the Refuge would want to be involved 23 with it. 24 25 In a nutshell, we're going through the 26 same thing as OSM. We have a lot of empty slots and 27 they're not being filled, so we're doing double duties. 28 Katya, I think, was doing triple duties. The whole 29 point of it is is that we'll make as much as we can on 30 it and I'll leave it at that. 31 32 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: So what I'm 33 really looking for is a direction and keep the 34 momentum. I think Andrew is ready to move on. We're 35 at 4:42 or something. So I'm hearing that we should 36 create a committee. Does anyone have any other 37 suggestions how we go forward so we don't let the ball 38 drop? 39 40 MR. BASSICH: Sue, I think the most 41 important thing is we now have Zach and Katya have said 42 that they can continue to be kind of a point of 43 contact. Brooke said that Tanana Chiefs could be -- 44 maybe, Brooke, you and I could talk a little bit about 45 how monies might be given to TCC and then dispersed. I 46 think that's going to be really important as we move 47 forward on any kind of funding from Outside entities. 48 49 Then my suggestion would be that at the 50




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1 next RAC meeting in the springtime we try and maybe, if 2 possible, meet a day in advance because it's taking 3 away from our RAC meeting. Meet the day before or the 4 day after, whichever, get some of the people involved 5 in the room that want to continue to foster the liaison 6 project and move that forward in another community or 7 two. 8 9 Then I think what also has to happen is

10 a second group that would then work on a detailed 11 project for the military outreach. I think if we could 12 accomplish that, that keeps the momentum going. It 13 gives us some time this winter to maybe try and seek 14 some additional funding to keep some of these meetings 15 going and it seems like the most cost-effective way to 16 do it. 17 18 My idea is I see one project is 19 working. It can be refined through more discussion. 20 The next logical step to me is move to our second 21 project proposal, which was working with the military 22 and develop that project to initiate and then also 23 continue to seek funding depending. As we develop that 24 project, we'll understand how much it's going to cost, 25 who needs to be involved. 26 27 I don't think we have to create the 28 wheel at all. There's so much information out there 29 through ADF&G. It's just a matter of pulling out what 30 it is we want to project, who's going to project it and 31 in what form we're going to do it. That's in a 32 nutshell all that really needs to be done to move to 33 that second proposal the way I see it. So I think it 34 could be done fairly efficiently and fairly quick in a 35 small committee. 36 37 That was my summary of what I'm hearing 38 and that would be my suggestion of how we move forward. 39 Madame Chair. 40 41 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Is 42 everybody all good with that? 43 44 (No comments) 45 46 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: All right. 47 If nobody else has anything to add to it, that would be 48 the direction that we're giving staff. 49 50




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1 All right. Anything else? 2 3 MR. BASSICH: I guess from my 4 perspective being involved, I think the most important 5 thing in my mind is to know who I need to contact to 6 talk about certain parts with. I understand who I need 7 to talk with with the military, but as far as like 8 ADF&G, trying to work with them to have a point of 9 contact there that we can work a little bit more

10 specifically rather than just the big picture all the 11 time. 12 13 I think we're getting to the point if 14 we want to keep momentum going, it's really important 15 to start bringing that picture down and start funneling 16 it down and really start getting us some really 17 detailed ideas for the projects. 18 19 That means you have to have a person 20 from each one of these agencies at those committee 21 meetings so that everybody is involved and everybody's 22 concerns or ideas are incorporated into it because the 23 last thing I want to see happen in this initiative is 24 for some project to be developed and then someone to 25 say, sorry, we didn't have any input, we don't like 26 this. 27 28 That's not the way it has to happen, it 29 has to happen with the major players, ADF&G, Fish and 30 Wildlife, Tanana Chiefs and any local government or 31 tribes in the area. Those are the key players that 32 have to be involved at the development stage. Really 33 important. 34 35 MS. WESSELS: Yeah, but also Federal, 36 NPS or BLM lands. They need to be involved. 37 38 MR. BASSICH: Absolutely. That's what 39 I mean. I didn't bring those names up, but absolutely. 40 NPS, BLM, any of the agencies need to be involved in 41 those discussions. 42 43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Eddie, go 44 ahead. 45 46 MR. GRASSER: A follow up. I agree 47 with Andy 100 percent. I think you're still missing 48 part of the hunting community. In order for this to 49 work and have people buy into it, you're going to have 50




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1 to have -- like last year I was working for Safari Club 2 International and came here representing them, but I 3 think you're going to have to include groups like that 4 if you want to have buy-in. 5 6 Just to be quite frank, having TCC as 7 the point of contact and place where you send funds, 8 most of those groups probably wouldn't do that, but 9 they would provide funding to a neutral party.

10 11 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Name a 12 neutral party. 13 14 MR. GRASSER: Can't think of one off 15 the top of my head. It's something we have to think 16 about. 17 18 MR. BASSICH: I'll be a neutral party. 19 20 (Laughter) 21 22 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: It was 23 interesting that APHA was contacted and involved, 24 Alaska Professional Hunters. I was on that board six 25 and a half years. So it's kind of nice to know that 26 that involvement is in there because that's another 27 entity that is nice to have involved. 28 29 So I mean I'm hearing everything you're 30 saying. To move forward, these point of contacts, do 31 we need to name people right now? 32 33 MR. BASSICH: No. I think we can work 34 through Katya and Zach and let's just work on 35 developing that. I think it's really important to know 36 who in an agency is going to be represented. Also to 37 have those contacts as you said, the Safari Club, 38 Professional Hunters, all of those. It's really 39 important to just start developing those partnerships 40 and those point of contact so that we can stay in good 41 communication. I don't want anybody left out. That's 42 really important in an initiative like this. 43 44 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. 45 46 MS. STEVENS: They'll all be at the 47 Sportsmen's Rendezvous on November 2nd in Anchorage. 48 All of those groups you just named. I do agree with 49 Eddie. The only group I could think of that was a 50




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1 neutral party was the Alaska Humanities Forum because 2 they do this type of work. 3

4 MR. GRASSER: Yeah, that would be a

5 neutral party, I think. 6

7 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Take note of

8 that. We have a neutral party. 9

10 MS. STEVENS: Humanities Forum. This

11 is like exactly the work that they do but they're

12 statewide, but doesn't mean they can't sponsor

13 something just in this region. 14

15 MS. WESSELS: Yeah, I actually have

16 some contacts at the Alaska Humanity Forum, so I can

17 talk to them and see if they're interested in this

18 particular type of project in general, so I can talk to

19 them and see if there's interest. 20

21 MR. BASSICH: We're good. 22

23 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yeah. Andy

24 says he thinks we're good. Everyone else. 25

26 (No comments) 27

28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. Thank

29 you for all that, gang. It's very important. What

30 time is it? 31

32 MR. FIRMIN: Everybody have their

33 homework assignment? They all know what's going on? 34

35 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'm wondering

36 the same thing. Do we have our homework assignments? 37

38 MR. BASSICH: I think so. 39

40 MR. FIRMIN: Just checking. 41

42 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: We're going

43 to find out next meeting. 44

45 MR. STEVENSON: Sue. 46

47 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes. 48

49 MR. STEVENSON: Through the Chair. 50




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1 What's evident to me through this discussion is that 2 there's no question that there's broad interest in

3 seeing this effort continue in a positive direction.

4 To that end, coming up with a little bit more focus on

5 who will be tasked with implementing this vision,

6 getting a budget, identifying the roles of those

7 partners and their responsibilities is a logical next

8 step. Ideally, we'd like to have some clarity on that

9 path sooner than later. With the goal of addressing

10 the interest in seeing this effort continue with

11 accomplishments, with actions. 12

13 Am I understanding that correctly? Is

14 that a fair synopsis of this item? 15

16 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: I'm like

17 Andrew. 18

19 MR. FIRMIN: That's what I was asking. 20

21 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: And you're

22 saying we've got to do it right now? 23

24 MR. STEVENSON: Right now. 25

26 (Laughter) 27

28 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: What I was

29 hearing is I think there's an understanding. We're

30 good. I see a lot of head shaking, so I'm there. 31

32 MR. BASSICH: Have faith. 33

34 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Okay. I have

35 faith. It is almost 5:00 o'clock. Andrew says it's

36 time to go home for the day. In the morning is

37 Proposal 20-50 and we need to start at 9:00 because

38 this biologist has to get in the air and do caribou

39 captures on the Fortymile. 40

41 MR. STEVENSON: Thanks, everybody. 42

43 MADAME CHAIR ENTSMINGER: Yes, thanks,

44 everybody for sure. 45

46 (Off record) 47

48 (PROCEEDINGS TO BE CONTINUED) 49

50




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1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) 4 )ss. 5 STATE OF ALASKA ) 6 7 I, Salena A. Hile, Notary Public in and for the 8 state of Alaska and reporter for Computer Matrix Court 9 Reporters, LLC, do hereby certify:

10 11 THAT the foregoing pages numbered 02 through 12 contain a full, true and correct Transcript of the 13 EASTERN INTERIOR FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY 14 COUNCIL MEETING, VOLUME I taken electronically on the 15 15th day of October 2019 at Fairbanks, Alaska; 16 17 THAT the transcript is a true and 18 correct transcript requested to be transcribed and 19 thereafter transcribed by under my direction and 20 reduced to print to the best of our knowledge and 21 ability; 22 23 THAT I am not an employee, attorney, or 24 party interested in any way in this action. 25 26 DATED at Anchorage, Alaska, this 28th 27 day of October 2019. 28 29 30 31 Salena A. Hile 32 Notary Public, State of Alaska 33 My Commission Expires: 09/16/22 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50

eastern interior federal subsistence regional … · 10/15/2019 · 135 christensen dr., ste. 2.,...

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