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STATE OF THE UNION WITH CANDY CROWLEY

Interview with Mike Rogers; Interview with Angus King; Interviewwith Dawn Zimmer

Aired January 19, 2014 - 09:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINALFORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Reining in big brother -- or not.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (voice-over): Today, privacy versus security. The presidentlooks for middle ground and finds no man's land.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still have along way to go to make surewe balance America's privacy interests on the metadata.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have gonetoo far in attacking the privacy rights of the American people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't think any changes were called for. The fact is the ones the president made are really minim al.

CROWLEY: Too much, too little, or mostly politics? An interview with Hous e Intelligence Comm ittee chairman, Mike Rogers.

And, Benghazi. A Senate committee concludes that the death of four Americans were avoidable and the state department failed to acton longs tanding security concerns.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were failures. And no one has been held accountable. Why?

EDITION: INTERNATIONAL U.S. MXICO ARABIC

TV: CNN CNNi CNN en Espaol HLN

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CROWLEY: Have we gotten to the bottom of Benghazi with independent senator, Angus King.

Plus, a week's worth of trouble for two titans of politics with 2016 am bitions.

And Michelle Obama h its the big 5-0 with a favorable rating north of 6-0. Our politica l panel on this week's headl iners .

This is STATE OF THE UNION.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (on-camera): Good morning. I'm Candy Crowley. New jersey governor, Chris Chris tie, is in Florida this weekend,fundraising for fellow Republicans , meeting with donors. Back home in New Jersey, there are new a llegations that his officethreatened to withhold super s torm Sandy relief funds if the mayor of Hoboken, a Dem ocrat, didn't support a Christie-backedredevelopment plan. I will speak with Hoboken mayor, Dawn Zimmer, in a few moments.

But first, in Washington, they call som ething that pleases no one a com promis e. In an election year, they often call it politics as well.Joining me now, Mike Rogers, the Republican chairm an of the House Intelligence Committee. Thank you for being here.

ROGERS: Thanks, Candy. It is great to be here.

CROWLEY: One of the bigges t sort of thing in this and the thing that's concerned so m any people is this bulk gathering of data onwhat phone numbers call what phone numbers in what manner of time and, et cetera, et cetera. So the so-called m etadata phoneprogram. The president ess entially said, I'm going to take all that data and put it somewhere else. Where is s omewhere els e?

ROGERS: That's a good point. Two things about that speech. First, I thought it was very important that the president laid out, noabuses , this was not an illegal program, it wasn't a rogue agency.

CROWLEY: Can I just s top you there? Because every time s omebody says s omething like that, I think that's becaus e the people thereare -- believe that they shouldn 't do that. But an agency is only as trustworthy as its employees. And as we all know from Mr. Snowden-- although he was a contractor -- that can change in a moment.

ROGERS: No, I understand. But what they didn't understand -- certainly Snowden didn't unders tand -- was all the levels of oversight. Acourt reviewed it, Congress reviewed it, DOJ reviewed it, the IG reviewed it. And even with the independent review board, found noabuses, legal program.

The problem was the sens ationalism of a rogue agency or domes tic spying. None of that was true. And so I thought it was im portantthat the pres ident laid that case out, hey, this was not true. You may not like the fact that this happens , but this was a legal program.Seventeen judges , 36 times approved it. Congress reviewed it. So there was plenty of oversight on this program that you don't find inother places. And I think that's why we've had no abus es in the program, No. 1.

But No. 2 in this speech -- and I think this is important -- I think only in Washington, D.C., can you announce you have a review board,and then announce in your big decis ion that you're going to review the review board, and then review the decision in 70 days. I'm for it,but I don't think it should go here, somebody else is going to have to figure this out. That's been the problem, I think, with the pres identon this particular issue.
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We really did need a decision on Friday, and what we got was lots of uncertainty. And jus t in my conversations over the weekend withintelligence officials, this new level of uncertainty is already having a bit of an im pact on our ability to protect Americans by findingterrorists who are trying to reach into the United States.

CROWLEY: What does it tell you that it wasn't really an end to this? Like here's what we're going to do, it's all done, I'm movingforward. Then he did have, well, in 60 days we'll figure out where to put this data. What does that tell you about the president's intent?

ROGERS: Well, again, it took I think a long time to com e to the conclusion where he needed to com e out and s ay, hey, this is a legalprogram. Yes, it is impactful, yes, it is important to national s ecurity.

And remember, the reason we got here is there was a gap right after 9/11. And when a ll of Americans were saying how does thishappen, well, the fact that a phone call from a known terrorist location came into the United States, the NSA could only get half of thatequation. And so we needed s omething to fill this gap. This was the program, and I think clearly through all of this turmoil and a ll ofthe spotlight, people found out, well, I guess it is a huge degree of oversight on this particular program, where you didn't even see thisin other parts of the government.

So that's how we go t here. And I do think that the presiden t is tugged (ph). He certainly is listening to the voices who say we s houldn'tdo any of this at any time for any reason, and I think he's trying to lis ten to the voices, the national s ecurity voices, which are bipartisan,saying you know what, this is an important program. We can do this with proper oversight. And you do need the oversight, but we cando it with proper oversight and protect Americans' privacy.

CROWLEY: But the truth of the matter is that his advisory board said, look, there's no real -- there's no real evidence we can point tothat this program has helped s top a terrorist attack. Others wil l differ, but that's what his advisory board found. So therefore, there is

collection of private data, what was thought to be private data, on almost every American for a program that hasn't turned up a terrorist.Does that not seem -- and the president sort of chose to then put it into private hands or someplace. Where is that place? It can't be atTarget or at any of these places that end up being hacked into. Where is that place?

ROGERS: Let me jus t say one thing about the report. One of the failings of the report was not to have long conversations with the FBI.As a matter of fact, they had no personal relations hip with the FBI in the conducting of the report. Pretty hard to come to a conclusi onthere was no impact. And when you do an investigation, it is as important to have some clue line up with the next clue. And thisprogram clearly has done that. And it has clearly had an impact, they argue a s ignificant impact, on eight of the cases in theaffirmative, meaning it led to a dis ruption. And in four of the cases -- I found this interesting, we forgot about this part of the debate -- isthat it stopped hundreds of thousands of FBI man-hours chas ing down radicals . That's hugely important. We don't have resources towaste when we know we have these targets.

Now, here's the problem w ith the president's proposal. He said he's for the program. It works. He has very serious privacy concernsby a lot (ph) of mandating that the private sector keep it, as do i t. But we're going to find the difference between now and 70 days.That's in terjected a level of uncertainty and having a who le bunch of us scratch our head. We have looked at this iss ue.

CROWLEY: So not private and not government.

ROGERS: I don't know where that goes . I don't know where that goes. I think we have to come to the conclus ion as Americans, canyou put the proper oversight on these prog rams? I think we have. I think we did. Both under Bush and under Mr. Obama, to make s urewe have a program that fills the gap that we know we m iss ed on the 9/11 September attacks. I just don't think we want to go to pre-9/11 because we haven't had an attack. Why? I argue because we have all of the tools on the table to protect Americans , and you cando it with protecting privacy and civil liberties. CROWLEY: Bottom line here -- the pres ident's propos als. Will they make Americans


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less safe in your opinion?

ROGERS: I think some of it is unworkable, and I do believe -- the machinations about going to the court is -- that is not going to makeus les s s afe necessarily. It adds confus ion. On the 215 program, I do think the way --

CROWLEY: That would be the phone records.

ROGERS: The phone records , the metadata, business records . That slows down the process . When you slow down the process , thatcauses problems . And the other piece is, should we be giving foreigners who you are trying to collect intelligence to keep Americanssafe, the same rights as United States citizens.

CROWLEY: We're going to extend some privacy rights to non- Americans.

ROGERS: So we're going to have to work through that proposal. It wasn't very clear, so we're going to have to work through it to makesure that that doesn't hinder ou r ability. We want our spy agencies spying on foreigners . That's why we have them. And it is importantthat they do that in a way that's helpful to the United States, and that does n't mean g rabbing everything. It means grabbing--

CROWLEY: Is this a political document, do you think? More to speak to the progress ives and those that were criticizing the program ingeneral than to actually make any big changes , particularly in the metadata program?

ROGERS: Well, from what you see he recomm ended, there are big changes he recomm ended. He sa id he does n't think it can staywith the government, but he's not sure go ing to the private sector. That is a huge problem as we move forward.

CROWLEY: But it hasn't happened.

ROGERS: Here is the prob lem, in dis cuss ing over the weekend. By interjecting this new l evel of having to go get a warrant for what inthe private s ector you'd use a subpoena, two different significant levels of legal au thority or the ability to prove a point, probable causeversus reasonable articulable suspicion, that creates s ome uncertainty in the program. So some have already argued this weekend, Ithink we have to shut it down un til you go and get a warrant for each. That's a problem . That means that there will be a period of timethat we will not be able to query a very secure and s afe database that only 20 people have the ability to get in and a re accountable tothe court and to Congress until we get this fixed. So that part I'm concerned about, and we've got to fix that. We better fix this tomorrow.

CROWLEY: Let me turn you to the Olympics . Lots of safety concerns as we have seen, there have been a number of terrorist attacks,from Chechnya, largely. Would you go to the Olympics? Would you feel safe? Are you going?

ROGERS: Well, that's unfair question. If I went to the Olympics, I would have security. I think the question is--

CROWLEY: How about your Michigan athletes?

ROGERS: Yeah. I am very concerned about the s ecurity status of the Olympics . I do believe that the Rus sian government needs to bemore cooperative with the United States when it comes to the security of the games. We have found a departure of cooperation that'svery concerning to me.

CROWLEY: Can you tell me what a departure of cooperation is? What does that mean? What are they doing?

ROGERS: Well, think about the problems they've had. So they've had several bombings. They disrupted plots. They've now moved


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som e 30,000 armed troops down to the region. That tells you that their level of concern is great, but we don't seem to be getting all ofthe information we need to protect our athletes in the games. I think this needs to change, and it should change s oon. This is notgoing to be a political problem for the Russians to share, although they apparently don't think so. It will be a problem--

CROWLEY: They don't want to share their intelligence with U.S. intelligence.

ROGERS: That's correct. So what we're finding is they aren't giving us the full s tory about what are the threat streams , who do we needto worry about, are those groups, the terrorist groups who have had some s uccess , are they still plotting? There's a mis sing gap , andyou never want that when you go into something I think as important as the Olympic Games and the security of the athletes, and theparticipants and those who come to watch the games.

CROWLEY: Just quickly if I can, if that does not change, would you worry about U.S. participation in the Olympics?

ROGERS: If I don't see a higher level of cooperation, I'm concerned today. I don't think anything would abate that concern short of fullcooperation from the Russ ian security services.

CROWLEY: Congress man Mike Rogers , from the great s tate of Michigan, thanks for be ing here.

ROGERS: Thanks for having me.

CROWLEY: When we return, a Senate report says the size of an attack were there, but Hillary Clinton's state department failed to act.When we return, the Benghazi controversy with Senator Angus King.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CROWLEY: Joining me now, Senator Angus king, a political independent from Maine. Although, we shouldmention that he caucuses with the Democrats. Senator King, thank you so much for joining us . I want to pick up where I left off withCongress man Rogers. You both serve on your separate Houses on the Intelligence Committee. What are your fears about theOlympics?

KING: Well, it's a very serious fear I think because the Olympics happen to be being held in an a rea of world where there has been ahistory of terrorist activity, where there's been a lot of tension between Islamis ts in that area and the government of Russia . And ofcourse, the reality, Candy, is today, terrorism is so hard to detect. There is a guy in the Middle East now who's working on the des ignof a totally non-metallic bomb.

And, you know, that kind of thing, it's -- I don't know how do you it, frankly, when you have thousands and thous ands of people andpeople m illing around. You know, we could have prevented the attack at the Boston m arathon by having 20,000 troops shoulder to

shoulder on the road. But this is a real challenge for the Russians . And I agree with Mike Rogers .

If I were them, I would be advising and working with every intelligence agency in the world as thoroughly as possible to try to preventsomething from happening.

CROWLEY: Given that nothing is ever 100 percent secure these days, is it in your mind safe enough for your family to go, for Maineathletes to go? Is it safe enough , do you think, or will it be safe enough?

KING: You know, I answer that question honestly. I would not go. And I don't think I would send my family. I don't know how you put apercentage on it, but it's just such a rich target in an area of the world that has -- you know, they've almost broadcas t that they're goingto try to do something there. I'd be -- it would be a stretch, I think, to say I'm going to send my family over.


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CROWLEY: Right. Right. And I'm assum ing that the athletes som ehow and the whole U.S. Olympic team is getting security andstrategic advice.

KING: Oh, yes, absolutely. We have a guy here in Maine, Seth Wescott, who's won two medals. And, I'm pretty sure he's going to be onthe team. And they're going to certainly have very high level of security. But, you know, it's of concern. But, you know, it's of concernhere. I'm a fraid, Candy, that this is going to be a concern anywhere in the future.

I mean, you know, you've got people that what they want is some maximum damage. They want to harm a lot of people, draw attentionto their cause, whatever it is. And, you know, I'm kind of worried about the World Cup down in Brazil as well. I think these kind ofconcerns are go ing to be heightened as we go into this uncertain world where all it takes is one guy with a bomb. CROWLEY:

Absolutely. Let me turn you to the Benghazi story this week where the Senate Intelligence Com mittee put out a bipartis an report andsaid es sentially -- I think what we all knew was that there were huge warnings and signa ls that the U.N. had pulled out some of itsfolks, the Red Cross -- I'm s orry, Britain had pulled out som e of its folks.

The Red Cross had also pulled out from some of its folks because they knew that Benghazi was not at all stable and that there wereterrorist groups working within Benghazi. I want to play for you something that your Senate colleague , Marco Rubio, s aid on the floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: They didn't have enough s ecurity. They maybe s houldn't have even been there at that stage in theprocess . Who's res ponsible for that? The buck stops with Hillary Clinton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: First of all, that was Marco Rubio On Fox News. but to his point, let me ask you, is Hillary Clinton partially to blame for thislack of security and therefore accountable for those deaths?

KING: Well, I've thought a lot about that, Candy. That's a hard question. It's ultimately a political question. Yes, she was secretary ofstate. Was she the person making decisions about security at U.S. facilities? By the way, there are over 100 around the world thathave security. Did somebody come to her and s ay we need more s ecurity at Benghazi and s he sa id, no, don't bother?

There's no evidence that I've seen that she was directly involved in that decisi on. On the other hand, she's the CEO. She's the bos s.And I've gone back and look at the law and how you hold CEOs accountable for laps es down the line. And, generally, the standard isthere has to be som e either knowledge or participation in the decision.

As I sa id at the beginning, I think the American people are going to have to make this decis ion. I'm not being a partis an of Hillary here,but I do think, you've got an o rganization with 20 or 30 or 40 ,000 people to s ay that an individual decis ion about one facility is therespons ibility the boss who really wasn't making that decision. Now, having said that, there's no question the state departmentscrewed up here.

And there should be accountability, in my opinion, who made -- who did make that decis ion in light of all the information and why and Ithink that's a very fair ques tion. And frankly, I'm s urprised and dis appointed. I know som e people who have been s ort of shiftedaround, but you know, if accountability means anything, it means s omebody paying a price for having made a dis astrous decision.CROWLEY: Right. So, then report people that kind of put on leave but then they were abound not to have done anything terribly wrong,and they were shift around to other jobs . So, you would agree that no one has been held accountable for the fact that the state


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department failed whether in the person, Hillary Clinton, or anyone els e at the s tate department. They failed to protect U.S. propertyand the U.S. people in it despite all those warnings. You think som eone should have been fired.

KING: Yes. I agree. I haven't seen any real accountability and I think that's been a failure in this whole process. And actually, SusanCollins, my colleague from Maine, had a kind of addendum to the report where she identified some people that she thought should beheld accountable bas ed upon her work on a Home land Security Committee. So, you know, I think that's part of it.

But let me sort of tie Benghazi to what you were talking with Mike Rogers about the telephone data. You know, we're pretty good inWashington at Monday morning quarterbacking and certainly on Benghazi. That's what we've been doing for about a year. Ask yourselfthis ques tion, the president of the Congres s s uspends a program o f collection of intelligence that could prevent a terrorist attack andan atomic bomb blows up in Miami.

You bet there would be a lot of discussion about, you know, would that program have helped? Who turned it off? Who decided not todo it? And all that kind of thing. And I think what we're all s truggling, the president and two intelligence com mittees, the Congress , andour country is calibrating ris k versus privacy. There are terrorist threats.

People do want to kill us, and yet, we have this thing of the Fourth Amendm ent, which is a deep abiding part of our culture and oursociety and trying to find the right balance which I think has to be calibrated all the time bas ed upon the level of risk and the technologythat's available to -- that could potentially invade our privacy. I want this data out of the hands of the United States government.

That bothers me. I don't like relying on the good faith and good nature of the peopl e in charge. I think the check and balance and I don'tknow whether it should go into a third party or some other way of holding it. But to me, it's illusory to say, well, don't worry, we've got it,but we'll only use it if we need to. Once they got it, you know, it's out of -- then, we cross the line, I think.

CROWLEY: Senator Angus King, sounds like this will be a topic for discuss ion in Washington for several weeks if not months ahead. Ireally appreciate you joining us this morning.

KING: Absolutely. Thank you, Candy.

CROWLEY: When we return, a New Jersey mayor says officials from governor Christie's office threatened to withhold superstormSandy relief funding unless she supported a redevelopment plan favored by the governor. The mayor of Hoboken New Jersey is nextas is our political panel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CROWLEY: New Jersey governor, Chris Christie's cam p is pushing back hard against claim s that hisadminis tration threatened to withhold supers torm Sandy relief funds for political reasons. Hoboken m ayor, Dawn Zimmer, says

Christie adm inistration officials indicated that her city would not receive aid if she failed to support a development project favored bythe governor.

In one of several handwritten notes about the governor that she has made public, Mayor Zimmer wrote, "I thought he was honest. Ithought he was moral. I thought he was something very different. This week, I found out he's cut from the s ame corrupt cloth that I'vebeen fighting for the last four years. I am s o disappointed. It literally brings tears to my eyes."

Joining me now, Mayor Dawn Zimmer. Thank you, madam m ayor, for being here this morning. I know you're kind of fighting losingyour voice so hopefully you won't in the middle of this interview. But let me ask you first. This happened early last year. Correct? In Mayof las t year...


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ZIMMER: Yes.

CROWLEY: ...when a couple of officials you say -- said to you, listen, Sandy relief aid will in fact may be jeopardized if you don't goalong with this redevelopment plan. Why are you here now?

ZIMMER: Well, you know, back in May when the lieutenant governor came and very directly said to me that these two things areconnected, I -- you know, I didn 't think anyone wou ld believe me. I really didn't. I mean I do, looking back, probably should have comeforward but I really didn't think anyone would believe me and quite frankly, if I came forward, no one believes me, then I'm going to putHoboken in an even worse pos ition and my number one priority as a mayor of Hoboken is to fight to make sure that we can get asmany Sandy funds as poss ible. That's m y number one priority. And I was really concerned that if I came forward, no one believed me,that we would really be cut out of the Sandy funding. But as I watched the coverage with bridge-gate, you do see parallels. I jus t felt I

had an obliga tion to come forward and as I look for the second tranche of funding come through, I'm concerned we're going to be cutout.

CROWLEY: So -- but we have seen s ince this happened in May, which I have recorded in your diary, we have seen you complem entthe mayor. We have seen you several months later say in a tweet, I'm so glad that Chris Christie is our governor. So can you squarethat for me? Becaus e as you know, coming a t this point, what the Chris Christie office says is this -- this is just politics. Why can thisnot be seen through a political lens?

ZIMMER: Well I mean that's part of the reason that this was so hard because I do have a really -- I did have a really good relationshipso I couldn't believe that they were doing this. The bottom line is that the Christie adm inistration's respons e is one of deflection. Imean the major question is , did they connect Sandy funding, Hoboken Sandy funding to the Rockefeller project. The fact is that is whatthey did. I'm coming forward. I'm sharing my story directly. I'm here talking to you. I'm sharing my journal. I'm offering to testify under

oath. What are they doing? They're hiding behind spokes people and in fact the lieutenant governor was reached directly by theBergen Record and s he declined to comm ent. I believe if and when s he is asked to testify under oath, the truth will come out becaus eI believe she will be truthful and she will tell the truth.

CROWLEY: OK. Anything that connects directly to Chris Christie on this? I m ean I understand that he had a relationship with -- you'retalking to his lieu tenant governor, that you're talking to others in h is adminis tration that he has a relationship with this Rockefellergroup. But, is there -- did he ever say anything to you? Did you ever not get funds? I know you didn't get everything you wanted, but Iimagine (ph) that's true of mos t cities in New Jersey.

ZIMMER: Well, I think we really got shortchanged on the funding. We've been saying from the very start that we have severe needs andthat we need to look at this comprehens ively and we've been asking them again and again. Now the fact is that she came, lieutenantgovernor pulled me aside and s aid es sentially, you got to move forward with the Rockefeller project. This project is really important to

the governor. And she said that she had been with him on Friday night and that this was a direct mess age from the governor.

CROWLEY: So she said -- she said that to you.

ZIMMER: She said that to me, is that this is a direct mess age from the governor. I was with him on Friday night.

CROWLEY: Again, if this happens in May, you've got a city that was just devastated by super storm Sandy that needs these funds andneeds them immediately, not you know, two or three years from now.

So in May you had this conversation and the lieutenant governor says to you, this is a direct mess age from Chris Christie, get behindthis project, or funds m ay be in jeopardy for your recovery. And then in August I think is when you tweeted, "I'm so glad he is governor


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of New Jersey." It is jus t hard to put those two things together.

ZIMMER: Well, again, I mean I had to bas ically almost set aside what she said to me because it is unbelievable, but it's true. It's trueand I'm coming forward and I just didn't feel that we were going to be able to get the funding. I was concern the people weren't going tobelieve me. I mean it is s tunning. It's outrageous , but it is true and I stand by my word. And like I s aid, I'm willing to testify under oathand I think when she testifies under oath we're going to see -- if she's asked to testify under oath, I think we're going to see the truthcome out becaus e I believe she will be truthful under oath. And I think you look at their respons e. They did not respond to the numberone question, are they linking Hoboken Sandy funding to the Rockefeller project. The fact is, they are. My number one priority, again, isto do what's right for Hoboken, to make sure that we can get that Sandy funding. At the time I just didn't think that they would -- anyonewould believe me but I'm coming forward as we look at these parallels . The parallels are that you have -- the Christie adm inistrationusing their authority to try and get something. I don't know what they were trying to get in the bridge gate but I do know what they're

trying to get in Hoboken, they're holding our Sandy funds hostage in order to get pushed through and expedite the Rockefeller project.

CROWLEY: I did speak to som eone ins ide the governor's office this morning and they said, listen, our first pot was $300 m illion. Therequest from Hoboken was $100 million. They got $70 million. And they said, when you look across the state of New Jersey, all ofthese places were hurting and needed more m oney than at that point they obviously had, that $70 million out of a $300 m illion pot atthat point is pretty good, it's almos t one-third of the funds.

ZIMMER: Well, actually, the $70 million that the governor is taking credit for, the majority of that is from the flood insurance programthat residents and bus iness es have paid themselves. They're paying premiums and they're getting those flood insu rance programsso that has nothing to do with the $70 million and the bottom line is we applied for over a $100 million and we got just, you know, alittle bit more than $300,000. Those numbers stand. I mean it's -- they're playing games with the numbers and it is a deflection. Themajority of that $70 m illion that they are talking about is from the flood insurance that they were not responsible for adminis tering.

CROWLEY: Did any other mayors so far as you know -- I'm s ure you've gotten calls from at least some of your Democratic mayoral --

ZIMMER: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that ques tion?

CROWLEY: Sure. Have you spoken to any other mayors in New Jersey that have sim ilar s tories?

ZIMMER: I've spoken to Mayor Fulop and obvious ly I know his story of what happened to him . They, too, I think have not gotten thatmuch Sandy funding. And for him, he s aw som ething very clear, you know, happen where they had some im portant meetings set up,day- long series of meetings that he was suppos ed to really have the opportunity to them -- for them, his whole adm inistration, tounderstand wha t the challenges that Jersey City was facing and thos e mee tings were cut off right away.

CROWLEY: There are lots of disasters that I've covered and always in the aftermath there is -- particularly if they're kind of statewide,there's someone who s ays, I'm not getting enough money, or the feds aren't giving us enough money, or the state aren't or theinsurance company, because it is just so overwhelmingly awful that it is almos t imposs ible to put everything back in place as it was .Could it be that the reason you're not getting the funds you want is not about this but about the fact that there s till are limited funds? I'mtold again by the New Jersey governor's office that when the next -- when the president approves the next round of aid, certainlyHoboken is going to get some. So have you seen yet the results of the threats you say you got?

ZIMMER: Well I think we have seen the results. And the fact is she made the threat. When the lieutenant comes here -- CROWLEY: Imean is there -- has it come to fruition, is what I mean? Li ke --

ZIMMER: I think it has come, yes. I think it has come to fruition. I think it has come to fruition in the first round and I'm not going to stand


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silent for the second round and have Hoboken not get funding. I mean we deserve our fair share. We deserve some of this funding.We've seen it happen in the first round and I'm not going to s tand aside. And the bottom line is s he came and she made a direct threatto me. She came and when the lieutenant governor comes , pulls you aside in a parking lot and says that these two things areconnected, I know it shouldn't be, but they are and if you tell anyone about it, I'll deny it. She felt almost guilty about saying it. Sheknows it is wrong, but that is exactly what they're trying to do.

CROWLEY: Do you think if you had stood up and dis cussed this conversation at the time it would not have gotten big play? I know yousay you wouldn't have -- you don't think anyone would believe you, but it certainly would have put it out there in the local news media,probably the national news m edia, because of Chris Chris tie's profile?

ZIMMER: I mean I don't think people at that time, I don't think people would have believed me.

ZIMMER: So, you know, I bas ically again, my number one priority is looking out for Hoboken. So I decided that it was best not to sayanything at that time because I wanted to make s ure that Hoboken still had had a chance of getting funding and I thought if I came outwith that, then we surely wouldn't get the funding. So it was a decis ion that I made a t that time.

CROWLEY: I want to read to you a part of what Chris Christie's s pokesman, Colin Reed, had to say in a s tatement to CNN in which hesaid, "it's very clear, partisan politics are at play here as Democrats m ayors with a political ax to grind come out of the woodwork andtry to get their faces on television." As one of the faces on television, I'm going to give you a chance to respond to that.

ZIMMER: I mean I'm not surprised that they are taking that approach, but in some ways I am. I'm the one that has stood with ChrisChristie from the very beginning. I mean I hos ted him in Hoboken for his first town hall meeting on the 2 percent tax cut. I stood withhim on arbitration. We've had, you know, every interaction that I've had with him, it's been a positive interaction. And so I'm not

surprised that they're trying to take this approach but I'm not -- I haven't been a part of the Democratic machine, so to speak, and so Imean to me, it's jus t - it's a deflection.

You know again, they're not answering the core question and the core question is , did the lieutenant governor say what she said. Andthey're not even ans wering that in their statement. They're hiding behind spokes people. She hers elf wouldn't get on the phone. Whenshe answered the phone, she literally -- they got her on her cell phone and she s aid, you know, I can't respond, my spokes peop le willbe responding.

Well, when it comes time if they are asked to testify, it won't be their spokes people who are testifying. It will be her testifying and shewill be as ked under oath and I think that she will be truthful and the truth will come out. For me the bottom line is actually, you know my-- the governor got a lot of support. He got a couple hundred m ore votes than m e in Hoboken and mos t of my supporters supportGovernor Chris tie. So I -- yes, I am a Democrat, but I'm someone that, you know, has been extremely supportive of the Christie

adminis tration and I have worked closely with them on a num ber of legislative issues. They really helped us with our hospital. So I'mnot in that, you know, mold, so to speak. I'm a different face. And if they really look back and reflect on that, they know that is the truth.CROWLEY: In fact the governor's office told me they were kind of surprised by this on Friday. They thought the relationship betweenyou and the governor was quite good and that in fact you were in the governor's o ffice, not meeting with the governor but meeting withsom e of his officials as late as las t Thursday. So the relationship is still OK?

ZIMMER: Well, actually, they were in my office. There was one representative from the governor's office. There was New Jersey transit.A rebui ld by design team, an international des ign team and we were talking about this plan, this com petition that we're a part of underHUD s ecretary, Donovan. It is an excellent competition that, you know, we're working on a comprehensive plan to really protectHoboken and really hoping to move that forward. But my concern is that the governor ultimately will not support this plan unless I moveforward with the Rockefeller project. And if I don't have his support on this plan, then we're not in a good position to win this


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competition. So that's my frustration and that's my concern. And again, I'm trying to do what -- you know, what I think is best forHoboken and you know, I also felt as more and m ore comes out about bridge-gate, that I had an obligation to come forward becaus e Ithink there are some strong parallels here.

CROWLEY: And you would - you would concede as a politician yourself that the Christie camp would look at this and s ee this as pilingon or supporters of the governor would say, this looks like Dem ocrats piling on and s ort of keeping it in the news.

ZIMMER: I'm sure they would look at it that way but it really -- to me, that's a deflection. Again, have they answered the question, did thelieutenant governor say this to m e? They have not directly responded to that ques tion. Did they tie Hoboken Sandy funding to theRockefeller project and, yes, they did. That is a fact and they have failed to respond to that to date and they have failed to respond to itdirectly. We have not heard from the governor directly. We have not heard from the lieutenant governor directly. And again, I believe if

she is asked to testify that she will be truthful around the truth will come out.

CROWLEY: So my last question is , when this was going on when you're in the parking lot having this discus sion w ith the lieutenantgovernor, there is a part of me that says this takes place in politics a lot. I mean to the winners go the spoils . I mean the (ph) peoplego, you know, you got to go with the governor on this becaus e it makes it really hard to do this, or et cetera. But when you were havingthis particular the conversation did you say, this sounds illegal, this sounds like a shakedown. I mean at what point -- where do youthink this categorizes in the kind of really, really hardball politics or did it occur to you was illegal?

ZIMMER: Well I mean, what I thought was, this is a threat. I mean this is a threat and this is wrong, this is not fair to Hoboken given thedevastation that we had. Our city was severely flooded. 80 percent of the city was underwater and this is not fair what she's asking meto do and it's not fair to hold those Sandy funds hostage in exchange for one development project and what she was asking m e to dowas really unfair and jus t not possible . As far as whether or not, I think it is som ething for others to look at as far as whether or not it

crosses that line. But I know from m y perspective jus t was not fair and it felt like a threat.

CROWLEY: Almost guaranteed to be continued. So I want to thank you so much, Mayor Dawn Zimmer. I appreciate your time.

ZIMMER: Thank you very much.

CROWLEY: More on a ll of this - thank you. More on all of this with our pane l in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CROWLEY: Joining me around the table Repub lican polls ter, Kristen Soltis Anderson, Michael Crowley, senior corresponden t for"Time Magazine," no relation, and CNN political commentator, Donna Brazile. Thank you all for being here es pecially since we have to

shorten our time with you.

But please here's the mayor of Hoboken sort of adding on. Where are we in the ass ess ment damage for Chris Christie?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: We're still in the, everybody is trying to figure things out stage. Right nowwhen you look at, for instance, Chris Chris tie's favorable rating there are four out of 10 Americans who are still uns ure. (INAUDIBLE)all comes out I think a lot of folks are saying, this is odd. I don't know if this all adds up. Nothing has been directly connected toGovernor Christie yet. Let's wait and see what this investigation say before we kind of make any final judgment about him as a man orhim as a potential face of the Republican Party in the future.

CROWLEY: But true but not connected then becomes look (ph) he can't manage his own s tore.


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MICHAEL CROWLEY, "TIME MAGAZINE," SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I mean I think the b ig question now is will anothershoe drop that shows that direct connection, which is really a nuclear bomb. You could imagine his career bei ng over if it looks asthough he gave direct orders to the bridge closure. But even short of that I do think people are judging him and I think it's fair to judgehim bas ed on the kinds of people who are around him and who you surround yourself with. I think that's a fair test of leadership. Sohe's definitely suffering a lot of damage. By the way, I think one thing that people forget is that, he had a lot of baggage already. Youremember the book "Game Change" talked about the Mitt Romney opposition file, you know, a lot of those allegations haven't beenproven or vetted out by the media. You better believe reporters are working on it but there may be other stories to come.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Drip, drip, drip is involved in his entire s taff. And right now i t has tainted hisbrand and als o his adminis tration. Right now it looks like things are falling apart, because every day there is a new s tory, a new

revelation.

CROWLEY: I will point out that the mayor of Hoboken did tie it to him directly. Now whether it's true or not is just a whole otherconversation, whole other investigation, but she s aid lieutenant governor said to me, I was with the governor last night and this is ames sage from him. Get behind this project or your Sandy funds are in jeopardy. Still not clear to me if her (ph) Sandy funds are -- werereally jeopardized. She believes they were. But again you know what it's like after one of these dis asters. Nobody gets enough money.

BRAZILE: She felt like she was s hort changed. And look, one thing we did know is that the party up in New Jers ey -- Democratic Partywas fractured. Many of them felt press ured to support Chris Christie. Chris Christie people were looking for crossover appeal. Theywere looking for things that they could talk about for 2016. So this s tory will continue.

CROWLEY: It also -- just the headlines themselves, it almos t -- in some ways you could say, no, none of them are true. Just the daily

headlines taken away from other things he might be doing. Raising money for Republicans et cetera.

MICHAEL CROWLEY: There's no question. I mean we could talk about is it fair, is the m edia paying too m uch attention to this s tory?Christie s taff certainly thinks they are. But it is jus t a blunt reality which I'm s ure you're seeing in the polling, it's hurting him and it'smaking Republicans, donors , party leaders who are looking for their candidate in 2016 a little more reticent. By the way, I said "GameChange." The book is "Double Down." I'm s orry.

CROWLEY: Get your books correct...

(CROSSTALK)

... colleagues and (ph) they tell us. Hillary Clinton, I want to move to her. You all had a front cover. Can Hillary -- can anyone stop

Hillary? But I bring you Benghazi.

This week, we kind of find what we already knew, which was they didn't pay any attention to the safety concerns in (INAUDIBLE)Benghazi, but it's fresh for Republicans who say, well, then who's -- if it was avoidable, who is to blame here? And you know wherethey go, Hillary Clinton. She was secretary of state.

ANDERSON: I certainly think that Republi can will talk about this. But if they expect that Benghazi will be the way they can dera il a HillaryClinton run for White House, I do think that's mis taken. I do think that it will have to be a bigger mes sage. But let's all keep in m ind thatat this point in the presidential cycle in 2008, Hillary Clinton was a top Democratic field at 39 percent and Barack Obama's namewasn't even being asked in the polls. In fact his name first shows up in CNN's polling in October 2006. So we've still got a long way togo before 2016.


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MICHAEL CROWLEY: I think you're right about that. One difference is I think even at that time in 2008, analysts were saying her vote toauthorize force (ph) in Iraq is a mass ive vulnerability, who is going to take advantage of it? She does n't have that vulnerability now. Tothose who wou ld say, what about Benghazi? I would say, Benghazi is the best Republicans have, it shows how weak their case. Sure,put ultimate respons ibility for what happened on her because s he was at the top of the chain. But I really just don't think most voters,conservatives feel pass ionately about this. I think mos t voters are not that exercised (ph) don't think that she's d irectly culpable.

CROWLEY: Right. I think actually her problem will be more from progres sives sort of looking for a new face that's a little less middle ofthe road. But I've got to change the topic because you got to go to Michelle's 50th birthday party. 20 seconds to go, tell us.

BRAZILE: It was fantastic. Amazing lady. Incredible party. She had her childhood friends there. Of course people from the

adminis tration. But the most im portant thing is that Beyonce performed and I have to tell you, John Legend sang happy birthday. Butthe mos t moving tribute came from Barack Obama who talked about the woman he m et and fell in love with. It was an amazing show.

CROWLEY: Sounds like a very good birthday. Thank you all so much for being here. And thank you all for watching STATE OF THEUNION. I'm Candy Crowley in Washington. Fareed Zakaria, GPS, is next for our viewers here in the United States.

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