episode 3.30 brilliant and disgusting with brenna clarke ... · secret feminist agenda transcript 1...

Secret Feminist Agenda Transcript

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Episode3.30BrilliantandDisgustingwithBrennaClarkeGray,LuciaLorenzi,andErinWunkerMay17,2019

Hannah(Host): 00:00:10 [Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgenda,andthisisit.It'sthefinalepisodeofseasonthree.Wedidit.Congratulationseveryone.Youwillhearalittlebitmorefrommeinthefutureintheformofaaudiorecordedpeerreviewforseasonthree,solookforwardtothat.Idon'tquiteknowthetimelineonthatyet,butwe'replayingaroundalittlebitwithhowthisseasonisgoingtobepeerreviewed.Intermsoffutureepisodes,I'mtakingaslightlylongerthanusualhiatus.IamgoingtotakemuchofthesummeroffsothatIcanfocusonwritingandondoingotherprojects,andI'mgoingtobebackwithseasonfouratthebeginningofAugust.I'vealreadygotacoupleofreallyexcitingepisodeslinedupforyou.Iwillhaveacoupleinthetankalready,andasI'vementionedbefore,IalreadyhavealistofincrediblepeoplethatIamgoingtobetalkingtoforseasonfoursoI'mexcitedforthat.Iamequallyexcitedforalittlebitoftimetoworkonsomeotherprojects,whichyou'llgettoseeaswellifyoulike,thingsthataren'tpodcasts,thingsthatareslightlymorebookshaped.Sothisfinalepisode,muchlikeepisode29,isalsoanexplicitresponsetoapieceofthepeerreviewofseasontwo.Andspecificallyit'sapieceofpeerreviewthataskedmetoassembleapanelofpublicfeminists,peopledoingpublicfeministwork,publicfeministthinking,totalkaboutsomeoftheissuessurroundingbeingapublicfeministthatthatcameupinseasontwoand,andhaveabsolutelycontinuedtocomeupinseasonthree.SoItookadvantageofthefactthatIwasgoingtobeinthesameplaceatthesametimeasthreeformerguestsofthepodcast,allofwhomareotherpeopledoingthiskindoffeminismandpublickindofwork.AndImadethemhangoutwithmeinahotelroomat8:00AMandrecordtheconversationyou'reabouttolistento.ThisisprobablyoneofmyfavoriteepisodesofthepodcasteverbecauseIloveallofthesepeople,andIthinkthattheyarebrilliant.AndIreallyappreciatewhatyou'regoingtohearintermsofhowcarefullytheylistentoeachotherandhowgenerouslytheyrespondtothespecificityofoneanother'sexperiences.IhopeyouenjoyitasmuchasIdid.Solet'smeetBrenna,LuciaandErin.[Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]BrennaClarkGrayteachesintheDepartmentofEnglishatDouglasCollegejustoutsideofVancouver.SheisascholarofCanadianLiteratureaswellas


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comicbooks.ShealsohasapodcastthatIabsolutelylovethatshemakeswithherfriendJoe.That'saboutYAnovelsandtheirfilmicadaptations.It'scalledHazel&Katniss&Harry&Star,andIsuperrecommendit.There'llbealinkforitintheshownotes.LuciaLorenziisascholar,activistandwriterbasedoutofVancouver,BC.She'scurrentlyapostdoctoralfellowintheDepartmentofEnglishandCulturalStudiesatMcMasteruniversitywheresheworksonTraumaTheoryinCanadianLiterature.She'salsoprettyfamousforbeingareallygreatonTwitter.AndErinWunkerisanassistantprofessorofEnglishatDalhousieUniversityinHalifax.Shehasalsoawriter,bestknownforherbookNotesFromaFeministKilljoyandisthecofounderoftheFeministacademicblogHookandEye:FastFeminism,SlowAcademia.[Music:"RememberMyName"byMitski]

Hannah(Host): 00:04:14 Ididn'tintroducetheframingoftoday'sepisode.I'mgoingtoreadalittlebitoutofthepeerviewfromseasontwo,butbeforewegetintothat,canIeverybodyjustintroducethemselvesandsaytheirnamessothatthelistenersknowwhosevoiceiswhose?

Erin: 00:04:43 I'mErinWunker.

Lucia: 00:04:44 IamLuciaLorenzi.

Brenna: 00:04:46 I'mBrennaClarkGray.

Hannah(Host): 00:04:48 [Laughs]

Erin: 00:04:48 Suchdulcettones.

Brenna: 00:04:48 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 00:04:48 Okay.Sointhepeerreviewtoseasontwo,CarlaRice,whoisIbelievecomingbacktoapeerreviewseasonthreeaswell,hadthefollowingcritique,I'mgoingtoreadittoyou.Itwasaboutepisodes2.1and2.29.2.1istheepisodeaboutbeingashittywhitefeminist.Soinepisode2.1ItalkaboutAtwoodandin2.29ItalkaboutJudithButler,andbothofthemareaboutsortofrethinkingyourrelationshipwithfeministswhomaybeareprovingtonotenacttheirfeminisminwaysyouhadhopedto.SoRicewrites,"Bothepisodes,whiletheyraiseurgentissuesofprofoundrelevancetofeministknowledgeproductionandmobilization,alsomisstheallimportantopportunitytodelveintothemessydynamicssurroundingcriticismandaccountability.Eachofthesecommentariesanditsfollowup


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episodewouldpotentiallyhavebeenmorepowerfulhadMcGregormovedbeyondcritiqueofAtwood'sandButler'shighlyquestionableactionsandherownexperiencesofonlineabuse,towardadiscussionofreflexivity,vulnerability,andaccountabilityinpublicscholarship.McGregordoesgesturetowardthinkingaboutthevulnerabilityoffeministpublicintellectualswhereshenotes,'theindividualneverneedstobethelocusofattackbecausethere'salwaysacommunitythereabletojoininandhelp,'butshedoesn'tlinkupherdiscussionoftheemotionaltollsofbeingtrolledasafeministpublicfigurewiththeseriousresponsibilityandneedforaccountabilitythatcomeswiththisrole/territory.Followupepisodesfeaturingpanelsoffeministscholars,educatorsandactivistscouldhaveopenedspacetoreflectonethicalprocessesofspeakingoutandlisteningtocriticism,onhowcritiquemightengenderdifficultemotionssuchasangerandshameinpanelists,onhowthey'veworkedthroughtheseemotions,andonhowattendingtodifficultemotionscanleadtonewlearning."Soshegoesontotalkaboutthevariouswaysinwhichwecanthinkaboutaccountability,shame,harm,andparticularlytheemotionalmessinessofdoingpublicfeministwork.SoIaskedyou,myfriends,tositinthiscoolhotelroomwithmeat8:00AMtotalkalittlebitaboutpublicfeministeducation,andactivism,andscholarship.Andyouknow,Iwanttotalksortofbroadlyaboutit,abouttheworkthatwe'redoingindifferentwaysandwhywedotheworkthatwedo,butalsowhatthefeelingsattachedtothatwork.Solet'smaybe,let'sstartifyoucouldtalkalittlebitaboutlikehowyoupersonallydefinethescopeofwhatyourpublicfeministworklookslike.Likewhatdoyoudoandwhythatyouwouldpersonallysortofputundertherubricoflikepublicfeministwork?Anybodycanstart.

Erin: 00:07:36 Doyouthinkit'susefulforustosayournamesatthebeginning?

Hannah(Host): 00:07:39 Yeah.

Erin: 00:07:39 SothisisErintalking.I'mthinkingaboutpublicfeministworkstartedwithHookandEye:FastFeminism,SlowAcademe,whichisa,ablog,afeministacademicblogthatwasstartedbyHeatherZwickerandAmyMorrisonandIsomeyearsagonow.AndbeforethatIhadn'treallythoughtofanyoftheworkthatIdidintheacademy(soI'maCanadianliteraturescholarandapoetryscholar)andIhadn'treallythoughtofanythingthatIwasdoingaspublicbeyondgoingtopresentaconferencepaperoranythinglikethat.AndIwasnotanavidblogreader,whichmeansthatIwasnotaverygoodblogwritereitherbecauseIhadn'tdonemyhomework.


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Hannah(Host): 00:08:25 [Laughs].

Erin: 00:08:25 Andforanybodywho'slistening,who'sinterestedinblogging,KerryClareofPickleMeThishasanincrediblerecentlyposted,sortof,howtoreinvigorateyourblog.Butallofthissortastartedbecausewerealizedthattherewas,anditwasHeather'sideainitially,sherecognizedthattherewasavoidintheCanadianAcademy,especiallythis,thenewest,sortof,starsystemofnationalrecognitionofscholarlyexcellencehadjusthappenedandtherewerenowomennamedtotheseparticularpositions.[Laughs]Andsowethought,youknow,thatseemslikeaproblem.Imean,wedidstartitawhileago,butIthinkitwaslike2011.


Erin: 00:09:10 Soyouknow,andwritinginthatpublicspacedidn'tfeellikeIwaswritinginapublicspace.IfeltlikeIwaswritingtoHeatherandAmy,whowereseniorscholarstome.Iwasuntenured,acontractworker,andsoIwantedtowritein,inawaythatwasacceptabletothem,whichisIthinkaninterestingthingtothinkaboutformenow,whatthatmight'vemeant.AndthenIalso,whenwestartedgettingcommentsback,Irealizedthatpeoplewerereadingitandthat'swhenitbecamemorepublicbut,butnotbig.Itfeltlikeaconversationandthatwasreallyexciting.SoIthinkthat'sthefirstplacethatI'vedonesomepublicfacingfeministwork.

Lucia: 00:09:54 Hi,it'sLucia.


Lucia: 00:09:56 Hello?

Erin: 00:09:59 Yesitis!

Lucia: 00:09:59 Hello.IthinkmywayintopublicfeminismwasthatIwantedtokeepajournal,butIdidn'twanttohavetowriteitoutbyhand,soIjustbloggedontheinternet.Andmysenseofwhatpublicfeminismwasaboutformewasjustmehavinganopinionandputtingitoutintothevoidofangryscreamingaboutinstitutions,andnotreallyevenseriouslythinkingthatanyonewouldreadituntilpeoplestartedreadingit.

Everyone: 00:10:32 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 00:10:32 Thatgotsomanylike,"[Knowinghums]"


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Lucia: 00:10:36 Yeah.Andsoitwasn't,therewasneveranintentiontodopublicworkofanykind.AndthenIthink,Iguessthe,thissortofdual,thedualpathsofmypublicworkhavebeen,ontheonehandbeingrealmadandrealmouthyandbeinglike,"youshouldtakecareofyourself.Here'ssomenicethingsyoucando."Sothemy,IseetheworkthatIdoas,they'rebothformsofbuildingcommunity.AndIdothinkthatpartofthatbuildingofcommunityislikeintellectuallabor,andresearch,andthinkingthrough,andofferingspaceforpeopletobemessy,becauseImyselfamverymessy.Butyeah,itfeltvery,formeinparticularthesortofjumpinpeoplereadingmyblogtolikepeoplewhojustsortoflike,"ohyeah,IknowLucia,"torandomstrangersandalotofmediaattentionwasveryrapidandit,ittookplaceinthecontextofalotofinstitutionalstruggle.AndsoIthinkthatwasdifficultbecauseitfeltlikeIwasdoingitbutthentherewassortofthissortof,Idon'twanttosay"nonconsensual,"butsortofnonconsensualuptakeandfeedbackthatwasreallyhardtocopewith.

Brenna: 00:11:42 Hi.IfeellikeIdon'thaveanyanswertothisquestion.ThisisBrennabytheway.


Brenna: 00:11:46 Ifsomeonestartswith,"IfeellikeIdon'thaveanyanswertothisquestion,"it'susuallyme.IthinkIcametoapublicfacingfeminism,notthroughmyscholarshipatallbutthroughawritingforBookRiot.SoIwasoneofthelaunchwritersforBookRiotin2011.AndBookRiotgotthisexplicitsortofdiversityandinclusiveandjustlikeequitymandateintermsofitscoverageofbooksnow.Andthatwasbecauseoftheethosofthepeoplewhofoundeditandbecauseofethosofthefirstwritersforsure,butthatstatementwasn'tmadeexplicitrightaway.Andsoitwassortoflikewearrivedonthebookishinternetandpeoplewerelike,"Ohwow,there'sthislikefunvoiceinbook.Waitaminute,they'retellingmetoreadbooksbybrownpeople.Whatishappening?ThisisnotwhatIsignedupfor."


Brenna: 00:12:36 AndsoallofasuddentheywentfromlikeahandfulofTwitterfollowersto,notmassive,butwaybiggerthananticipatedpresenceinthebookishinternet.AndthensuddenlyIwasmakingpeoplereally,reallymadwithjuststuffthatIfeltwasobvious.AndsoIgotrealstridentrealfast.Andthat's,ImeanI


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oftendescribemyfeminismas"yellingatpeopleontheinternet"feminismbecausethat'swhatitprimarilyis,becausethat'sthespacethatI'mwritinginandthat'swhereI'mgettingresponses,andthat'swhereI'mseeingjustsomuchgrossnessallthetime.Andsothathasexpandedtobecomeacritiqueoftheacademyandmypositionwithinitasacollegescholarfromafeministperspective,butthat'scertainlynotwhereitstarted.

Hannah(Host): 00:13:15 That'ssointeresting.Likethereallydifferentwaysthatpeoplearriveatthebusinessofdoingscholarshipfeminism.Scholarshipfeminism.Uhoh.

Everyone: 00:13:22 [Laughs]

Brenna: 00:13:24 I'veheardofit.

Hannah(Host): 00:13:24 Yeah.[Laughs]Youfamiliarwithdoingscholarshippublicly?Okay,sohere'sa,cuzIsaid"scholarshipfeminism,"whichisnotaphrase,butitdidmakemybraindoathingwhichwaslike,whichcomesfirst:theinterestinspeakingpubliclyoronnon-traditionalplatforms,orthefeminism?Likeistheresomethingaboutfeministcommitmenttoyourscholarlyworkthatmaybeinclinesyoutowardstakingupthesepublicplatformsdifferently,ormorereadily,orwithagreatersenseofurgencythatisperhapslessevidentlynecessarytoscholarswhoaren'tthinkingoffeminismas,aspartoftheworkthatthey'redoing?

Erin: 00:14:09 Ithinkthat'sareallyinterestingquestion.Andit'sErin.AndIthinkthatIhaveananswer,wellIcertainlyhaveananswer,butI'mnotsurethatitistotallyinlinewithwhatyou'resaying.Whatyoumay,whatyousaidmademethinkandlisteningtoLuciaandBrenna,mademerealizethewaysinwhicheveninthisroomamongstfriendsandcolleaguesthatourpublicfacingafeminismtakessuchdifferentforms.Sodespitethefactthatmypublicfeminismbeganandhasmaintaineditself,toacertaindegree,onablogontheinternet,IfeellikeIlearnedfairlyquicklywhentryingtomoveintoothersgenressuchasTwitter,thatI'mnot,mymodeofthinkingandmy,myfeministpracticeisnotsuitedtothatgenre.

Hannah(Host): 00:15:00 Mmm.

Erin: 00:15:00 Itisarealskill,towriteinthewaythatI'mthinking,youknow,of,youknow,youLuciawho,who'swritingIknewbeforeIactuallyknewyouinperson.Anditisaskillto,toteachpeopleandtohaveconversations.Notonlyisitaskill,it's,it'sakindofawholeskillsetandrangeofemotionalintelligencethatIhave


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indifferentforms.AndsoIfeellikeI'mjustrecognizingnow,eventhoughI'vebeen,sortof,nominallyoffthingslikeTwitterforoverayear,thatit'snotafailureonmypartintermsofmypublicfeminismtonotdothatinthatway,butthatIdobetterthinking,moregenerativethinkingmaybeinlongerforms.So,forexample,writingessaysandwritingbooksandblogpostsistheforminwhichIfeelmostifeffectiveornot,noteveneffective.That'snotthewordthatIwanttouse.Eventhoughitcamerightoutofmymouth,hoppedrightoutofthere.


Erin: 00:16:04 It'slike,it'slikewhereyoufeelbothcomfortableandthatrightamountofriskinwhichyou'rereachingtowardspeopleandyoudon'tknowhowit'sgoingtobepickedup.Butthisisaforminwhichyoufeel,Ifeelmyself,youknow,havesome,someoxygenation.

Lucia: 00:16:20 Ithinkformemaybebecause,sothere's,there'sacoupleofthings.AndthefirstisthatI,mytrajectorythroughacademiahasalwaysbeenthatIdon'talwaysknowwhatIwanttostudy,butIknowthatithasafeministlens.


Lucia: 00:16:33 Andsoforme,Ithinkofmyselfsortoffeministfirstscholarsecond,eventhoughthetwoare,areobviouslyrelated.AndIthinkthatTwitterformehasbeenreallyimportantbecauseit'stheplacewhereI,whereIworkoutideas,andIworkoutwhatformyselfasmuchasfor,sortof,otherpeoplewhatfeministscholarshiporfeministthoughtcouldbe.AndIknowwewere,weweresortof,we'vebeentalkingaboutopenaccessandopenscholarshipandI,Isortofnevereventhinkaboutitin,inthesenseofacademicjournalsbecauseI,alotoftheworkthatIdoisbydefaultjustontheTwitterwherepeoplecanreadit.


Lucia: 00:17:13 AndsoIthinkthere'sthatdifficultyof,formeidentifyingasafeministscholar,orsolelyasthat,because"scholar"doesn'talwaysfeellikeawordthatsitswithme.Maybe"feministculturalworker"or,orlikeIhaven'tquitefoundthewordthatjustsitswellwithme.ImeanIthinkI'mlearningalsotonotdenigratemyownworkbecausealotof,ImeanI'vemetallthreeofyouonTwitter.LikeIevenmetallthreeofyouontheinternetbeforemeetingyouinperson.Andalotofpeoplesay,"oh,IknowyoufromTwitter,"whichsometimesIwanttosay"I


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alsowriteveryseriousacademicarticles.Youcanfindtheminthefollowingpaywalljournals."It'sfine.ButIthinkalotofitismyownlikecomingtotermswithmyownbaggagearoundthetermfeministscholarandwhatthatmeans.AndlikeI'mnotJudithButler,I'mnotwritingfeministscholarshipintheseverysortofhightheoreticalterms.Butyeah,Ithinkformethere'sstillalotofmetryingtoworkoutwhatitisthatIdo.AndrightnowI'minthatplacewhereIdon'tknow,Idon'thaveanythinglinedupintheacademynextandrealizinglike,oh,thatdoesn'tactuallymatter.Igetit.It'smattered.Butthere'sbeenthisthroughlineofdoingworkinadifferentspherethatisstillseriousintellectualandemotionallabor.ButwhatInecessarilycallitscholarshipattimes,yes.Andattimes,no.

Brenna: 00:18:38 Hi.Ifeelweird.Idon'tknowwhy.


Brenna: 00:18:43 Definitelyleavethatin.Yeah.Does.

Hannah(Host): 00:18:44 Isitcuzsittingaroundthecircle,justpassingthemicrophonebackandforthislikeareallynaturalandnormalwaytohangoutwithyourfriends?

Brenna: 00:18:52 [Laughs]It'scuzholdingthemicrophone,youfeellikeyouhavetohavesomethingworthwhiletosay.It'svery--

Hannah(Host): 00:18:58 ThisisBrennacomingatyoufrom97.7TheEdge.

Brenna: 00:19:02 That'strue.Noteveryonewithamicrophonehassomethingworthwhiletosay.Thankyouforthat.I,likeLucia,havefoundTwittertobeareallygenerativeplace,inthatitisalsosometimesanightmarehellscape.Itcanbeboth.Andthat'sareallyinterestingthingaboutTwitter,Ithink,whenitcomestopublicfeminism.IalsouseitasaplaceforworkingoutideasthatIalwaysswearI'mgoingtoputinlongformsomewhereandthendon't.Andthensomebodyislike,"Istorifieditforyou."AndI'mlike,"cool.Thenit'sdone.Idon'thavetodoanythingwiththat."Andagain,butoneofthethingsIlikeaboutthatisthatpeopleIlikeandrespectwilljumpin,manyoftheminthishotelroom,andhelpmethinkthroughtheideathatI'mworkingon.Andatthesametimepeoplewilljumpin,sometimeswithgenerouscriticism,andsometimestosayhorriblethings.AndIthinkthatwhenIdothenturntolongformwriting,butIthinkactuallyevenmoreappropriatelytomyteaching,Ifeelarmedandreadytoaddressthekindsofkneejerkreactionsthatcancomeupintheclassroom,thekindsof


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defensivenessthatcancomeupintheclassroombecauseI'vealready,I'vehearditandI'vebeenabletolikeparseitformyselfsothatwhenitcomesfromastudent,IcanrespondtoitinamuchmoregenerouswaythanInecessarilydotoatrollonTwitter.Andit'sfunny,I'monlyjustrealizingthisasI'msayingitoutloud,butIdothinkmyinteractionsonTwitterandthewayIapproachthesesameissuesintheclassroomaremuchmoreanalogousthanIhavethoughtaboutpreviously.ItwasinterestingformethissemesterIwasteachinggenderstudiesforthefirsttime.Like,Ialwaysteachgenderalongsideliterature,butforthefirsttimeIwasteachingjustlikeIntrotoGenderStudies.IwasalastminutereplacementanditwasthebestexperiencebecauseforthefirsttimeIwasteachinglikegenderissuesinaclassroomandIdidn'thavetospendthefirstthreeweeksbeinglike,"So,gendermatters.Here'sGender101.Here'slike,here'swhatoppressionis.Herearesomeconcepts."LikeIhadaclassroomfullofstudentswhowerealreadyinandIdidn'trealizehowmuchofmyteachingIspenddealingwithinitialdefensivereactions,whetherseatedinwhiteness,orcisness,orable-bodiedness,orstraightness,ormaleness.Itwasreallyexcitingtonothavetoworkthroughallofthat,butIrealizedthatIdoalotofthatworkingthroughwiththe,withthehelpofpeopleonTwitter,forbetterorforworse,beforeIgettotheclassroom.

Lucia: 00:21:41 Yeah.Just,it'sLucia.Brennaasyou'retalking,Iwasthinkingabout,IguessthinkingaboutwhomyTwitteraudience.LikeIalwaysassumethatmostofthepeoplewhofollowmearenotbotsandthattheyhaveabuy-intotheworkthatIdo,thatthey'renotjustsortoffollowingbecausetheyhatemeandwanttoseememakeafoolofmyself.Sothere'sthatbuyin.AndIthinkthatit,becauseIassumethatthemajorityofpeoplewhofollowmehaveabuy-in,IfeellikeI'velearnedhowtobesomuchmorecarefulandthoughtful.Whichisn'ttosaythatIdon'tliketweetthingsoffthecuff,butIthinkthatit'smadememuchmoreattentive,notsortofscared.ImeanIthinkthatsomepeoplesortofframethatargumentoflike,"Oh,I'mscaredtosayanythingbecauseofcalloutculture.AndonTwitterit'ssobad,andifImakeamistake..."ButIthinkthatI,I'vesortofbuiltaspaceformyselfwhereItrytoassumethatthepeoplewhoareengagingwithmearedoingsoingoodfaithandthat,thatIalsohavetheresponsibilitytothinkthroughingoodfaithbutnot,notsay,"oh,thisisjustadraft,"andthensayabunchofreallyawfulshit.

Hannah(Host): 00:22:52 [Knowinghum].



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Lucia: 00:22:52 Butactuallyreallylike,youknow,thinkthrough,andsometimesIdo.LikeifIwriteaTwitteressay,sometimesIdoworkitthroughinaworddocumentbefore.AndI,IthinkIalwayshavetheintentionofdoinglongformwriting,butthenIjustgetreallyfrustratedandjustdecidetolikebangitoutonTwitterinstead.Butyeah,Ithinkthinkingaboutaudiencehasbeenreallyimportantformeinthatkindofresponsibility.Butthere'sthatanxietylike,asI'veseenmyfollowercountsortofsteadilyincreaseoverthepastfewyears.Andpeopleactually,notthatpeopleweren'tlisteningtowhatIsaidbefore,butthere'sasortofveryrapiduptakeofthingsthatIsay.LikeIwantthemtobethoughtfulorIwantthemtoberealfunny...

Erin: 00:23:34 Yeah.

Lucia: 00:23:34 Alsoimportant.

Hannah(Host): 00:23:34 [Laughs]Yeah.

Lucia: 00:23:34 Youknow?Yeah.

Erin: 00:23:37 Yeah,it'sErin.Ifindmyselfthinkingaboutthewaysinwhich,andit'salmostcertainlybecauseweallmeteachother,notonlyinthecontextofpublicfacingfeminism,butpublicfacingfeminismthatwasoperatingprecariouslyorcentrallyormorestably,dependingonthefluctuationsofour,ourlivesoverthatpastnumberofyearswithinacademicspaces.AndsoI'vebeenstruckatthewaysinwhich,thoughIunderstandthem,we'vebeenthinkingaboutscholarshipassomethingthathappensinuniversitiesspacesorcollegespaces,thoseinstitutionalspaces.Whenofcourseasweallknowandhavewrittenaboutvariouslyandinmanydifferentplaces,scholarship,isn't,that'sonlyoneoftheplacesthatithappens.AndsoIwasthinkingasyouwerespeakingBrennaandLucia,thatmaybepublicfeministscholarshipandthetwomantlesoffeministandscholaroperateforme,mostgenerouslyandgeneratively,whenIamthinkingaboutareadershiporreceptioninsomeway,beitstudentsinaclassroomorthehopethatsomeonepicksupthebookthatI'vewritten,notforreasonsofpopularitybutforreasonsofconvivialityandcommunitiesthathappenthroughtextualengagementordiscursiveengagement.Andsothatforme,I'mrealizing,listeningtoyouall,thatscholarshipisactuallythatpausethatyouindicatedLucia,whereI'mthinking,"okay,I'mworkingthisoutformyselfbecauseIwantto,"youknow,Ialwayswanttobeworkingonbeingabetterfeministandabetterpersonintheworldandinmylife,asthoughthosetwothingsaredivisible.Butinsomewaystheyare,right?Yourpublicself,yourprivateselfarenotidenticalallthetime.And


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alsothatthatpauseismethinkingabouthowtoengageinawaythatsomebodymayrespond,whetherornotitispositive,orcritical,orgenerous,oryouknow,reallythosekneejerkreactions.AndsoIreally,Iyeah,thanksforthat.ThanksforteachingmeaboutwhatIactuallydo,friends.Goodjob.

Hannah(Host): 00:26:03 [Laughs]Solet'stalkaboutresponseandthat,thatsortofbeautifulunpredictabilityofresponse.Ifeellikethereis,weareallataconferencerightnow,andI'vebeenthinkingaboutlikeconferenceQ&A'sandhowwildlyboringtheyare.Andhow,forthemostpartwhentheyaren'tboringit'sbecausethey'reterrible.LikepeoplerarelysurpriseyouingoodwayinaconferenceQ&A.Like,onoccasionyougetthepleasureofthesurpriseofareallyinsightfulquestion,butforthemostpartwhatyouget[laughing]isasurpriseracist.Iswhatwe'vereallybeengettingbeengettingatthisconference.

Lucia: 00:26:44 It'snotasurpriseanymore.

Hannah(Host): 00:26:47 [Laughs]It'sjust,"stuplimity,"isawordwelearnedyesterday:the,theshockandboredom.There'sthiswayforme,atthispointinmycareerwhereIfeelrarelysurprisedordelightedbyresponsesininstitutionalsettings.Andthat'slikeevenwithmystudents,whoIlovethespecificityofeachclassroom,andthewaythatthesortofclassroomcommunitiesemerge,thereisstillsomuchabouttheworkingwithinthattheinstitutionoftheuniversityoftheclassroomthatframesthepossibilitiesforthekindsofengagementwecanhave.Andthere'ssomethingaboutthekindsofpublicscholarshipIdo,atleast,thissortofdeeponpredictabilityofthepodcastlistenershipthatleadstorealsurprise.Likereallysurprises.Andthat'sbothintermsofthat,thatispositivesurprisesometimes.Youknow,wholistens?Whoengages?WhofindssomethingofvalueintheworkthatI'mdoingorthethingsthatI'msaying?Andthenit'salsobadsurprises.Whenyousortofthinkyouknowwhoyouraudienceisandthenitturnsoutthatlikesomebodyyouwouldneverwould'vethoughtyouwerespeakingtois,infact,listeningtoyouandhatesyousomuch.Yeah.So,soIwouldlovetohearalittlebitaboutresponses,aboutthosekindsofresponsesthatyou'vereceived,thesortofresponsesfromthepublicandlikemoments,thosehavebeensurprising,pleasing,displeasing,shocking,awing.

Erin: 00:28:18 It'sErinagain.I,IamlookingoutthewindowbetweeneveryonesortofinthemiddledistancebecauseI'mputtingtogethersomethingandI'mgoingtotryit.I'mnotsureifit'saccurate,butIthinkthatintermsofsurprisesofthegoodkind,bywhichImean,"Ohwow!Huh.Ididn'texpectthat.That'sreally,wow,


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I'mexcitedaboutthat,"or"that'sinteresting,"or"Wow,I'mspeechless.You'vetakenmybreathawayinagoodway."ThosehavealmostalwayscomeinresponsetolongerthingsthatI'vewritten.So,forexample,thecollectionofessaysthatIwrote,even,andperhapsespecially,whenIwasgettingabookreview,thatwaswhatIwouldthinkofasastrongbookreview,bywhichImean,thereviewersays,"here'swhatIreally,"youknow,"here'swhatthebookisdoing.Here'swhatIreallylikeaboutit.Here'ssomeplacesofrealweakness.Overall,thisismytakeawayfromit."Thatwaswonderfullysurprisingbecausethe,theamountoftimesinwhichIfeelasthough,andIsuspectit'snot,I'mnotaloneinthis,you'respeakingintoavoid.YouknowwhatImean?Ithink,ofcourseyousaywe'reataconference.ThenumberofconferencepapersI'vewrittenandI'vegotten,youknow,thethrowawaythatpeoplearejusttryingtodo,tobepoliteorcivilsothateverybodyonthepanelgetsaquestion,andthere'snodeepengagementwiththeideasthatyou'retryingtoworkoutinthispartialandprovisionalway.AndthereallynegativeresponsesthatI'vehadarethedeeplysurprisinglike,"wow,what?Ididnotexpectyouhumanwhohas,Ithought,noconnectiontotheorbitsthatImovethrough,toevenhavemeonyourradar,careaboutanythingthatIsay,andthencareenoughaboutittoweaponizeitincertainkindsofways."That'sbeenshockingandit'sabit,againformebeenasgenreexperience.Likethoseexperienceshavehappened,andI'mnottalkingaboutcalloutorcallin.I'vebeencalledoutandcalledinondigitalspacesinwaysthat,youknow,maybewe'lltalkalittlebitlateraboutthoseresponses,inwaysthathavebeenupsettingformeinitiallyandthenhavemovedintosomethingIthinkmore,moregenerativeforthewaysinwhichI'mthinkingandbeingattentive.I'mtalkingaboutthat,"wow,youhatemeandwe'venevermet."Andthismediumallowsthiskindofinteractionin,inwhich,youknow,Ijustfindmyselfconstantlythinkinglike,"whatwouldyoudoifI,inmyfivefootwhateverbodywasstandinginfrontofyou?Wouldyousaylikewouldyouhavethegutstotalktomethatway?"Maybe,butmaybenot.Andthat,that'swhenIfinditreallycurious.Right.Yeah.So,soit's,it'sbeensofarfrommeagenreexperience,butlet'sseewhathappens.Maybethat'llchange.


Lucia: 00:31:33 Hi,it'sLucia.Theresponseformehasbeeninterestingbecause,byandlarge,it'sallbeenpositive.Likeit'sbeenreallypositive.ThenIrealizedthat,youknow,theprivilegeofbeingalight-skinnedBlackwomanonsocialmedia,andsortofinsulatedinsomewaysby,sortof,thescholarlycirclesthatImovein,thatIhaven'tgottenreallyvitriolicresponses.WhatIhavegottenare


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reallydifficult,IthinkIwaspreparedforthe,like"youareanawfulperson,hereisadeaththreat,"butIwasn'tpreparedforwerethe,sortof,verypassiveaggressiveresponsesfromwithintheinstitution,fromevenpeoplethatIdon'tinteractwithinthesespaces.AndsoI'msortoftrying,I'mrealizingmoreandmorethat,youknow,they'rethethingsthatIwriteonsocialmedia,therearepeoplereadingthemwhomightnevertellmethattheyreadthemandthey'rerespondingandIdon'tknowthatthey'rerespondingtothat.ButIthinkthehardthingaboutassertivegloballypositiveresponse,whichIdon'tthinkislike,"Luciaissogreat,andsoperfect,andshenevermessesup."

Brenna: 00:32:35 You'regreat,though.Andperfect.


Hannah(Host): 00:32:36 I'mprettyokay,likethecityofOttawa.Ithinkthatthat'smademefeelacertain,sortof,likeabitofapressuretolike,sortof,keepbeingagoodpersonandtokeepbeingingood--


Lucia: 00:32:49 Oh,Iamnotamonster.

Erin: 00:32:52 You'reamurderer,areya?


Lucia: 00:32:52 Iswear!I'mrealbad.Butitalsosometimesmakesmefeel,notmisunderstood,butsortofthatthere'smore,thatIwonderifI'mnotputtingallofmycomplexitiesoutthere.Like,yeah,Itellpeopletobegentlewiththemselveseverynight,butI'mkindofajackasstomyself.LikeIandI,andIcanberesentfulandIcanbeallthosethings.AndIthinkIdotalkaboutthem,butthereissomethingveryinterestingaboutasortofpublicresponsethathasgenerallybeenreallygreat,butmyproblemshavebeenininstitutions.LikeIamunhireableasastaffmemberatUBCbecauseIspeakaboutUBCallthetime.Right?Like,andI'mawareofthatandI'mawareofsortoftheinstitutionalresponsesofthatI'matroublemaker,andoftenbecauseofthepowerdynamics,Ican'teventalkaboutthosethings.LikeIcan'tretweetandbelike,"lookatthisshittytroll."It's,Iliterallycan'tsayanything.Andsoforme,navigatingthoseinstitutionalresponsesthatsometimesarepassiveaggressive,sometimesaremoreovertly,"you'reaproblem."Ithinkthat'sbeendifficultformebecauseitfeelslikeIhavenooutlettolikeevenprovethatithappened.


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Hannah(Host): 00:34:04 Yeah,right?It'sthemomentofbeingcalledintosomebody'sofficetohaveaconversationaboutatweetyoudidwhereyou'relike,"oh,"like,"you'renotgoingtoengagemeonTwitterwhereeverybodysees.You'regoingtousethatinstitutionalpositioningtomovetheconversationoutofthatpublicspaceintoaspacewherepoweroperatesdifferently."Yeah.Yeah.I'vehadthosemeetings.

Brenna: 00:34:28 Yeah,that'swhatIwasgoingtobringup.Iwasgonnabringupthissurprisingexperienceofsomeonecallingyourbossbecauseofsomethingyoudid.Actually,andthehilariousthingwasitwasnot,itwasnoteven,itwasnotevenpartofafeministproject.In2011IgaveapaperatCongressaboutWikipedia.Anddidyouknowthat--

Hannah(Host): 00:34:51 Boo!

Brenna: 00:34:51 Didyouknowthere'sawholecommunityofpeoplewhoareveryconcernedabouttheWikipedificationofhighereducation?Andthentheywillcall,ImeanIalsothinkthere'sagendercomponenthere.Iwasveryyoung,2011.Iwasayearintomyveryfirstrealjob.IhaddefendedmyPhD12monthsprior.AndthislikereallynothingsubtletalkIgaveaboutusingWikipediaintheclassroomandwhatitdidformystudentsresultedinlikemorethanonepersoncallingmydeantodiscussthisissuewiththem.AndIlaterrealizedthatthiswasbeingdiscussedonliketheseanti-Wikipediaforums.Myinformationwasbeingsharedinthisspace.IdidnotthinkIhadpresentedanythingcontroversial.Ihavesaidmuchmorecontroversialthingssincethattime,withoutthatresponse.Andit'sinterestingbecauseI'mstillnotquitesurewhythatdidn'tshutdownmyrelationshiptobeinginthepublicandIthinkit'sbecauseI,Iwasn'treally.I'dgivenapaperatCongress.There'dbeenlikeacoupleoflittlewriteupsaboutitandliketheNationalPostandacoupleotherplacesanditwentintowirecopyanditwentoutafewplacesandlikenoneofthatfeltpublictomeuntilitsuddenlywas.AndIthinkwhatIrealizedfromthatisthata,youcanabsolutelynotpredictresponse.[Laughs]Therewasnothingcontroversialaboutthispaper.Imeanreallyandthatmygenderwasalwaysgoingtoimpactmyexperiencelike,andmyageatthetimetoo.Ithinkdefinitely,Idefinitelydon'tthinkaseniorscholargivingthesame,franklycute,littlesubtlepaperaboutWikipediausewouldhavehadtheir,theirdeancalled.MoredifficultformetonavigatehavebeenthetimeswhenIhavewrittencriticallyabouttheinstitutionsofhigheredmoregenerallyandfoundmyselfcalledtoanswerforthempersonally.SoIwroteablogpostyearsagonowabouttherelativelyconservativenatureofthecommunitycollegeandthe


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waythat,thewaythattransferdemandsthatourcoursesstayrelativelyconservative.Weanswertootherinstitutionsandwehavetomanagethatrelationship.Andsometimestheinstitutionsgettobewildlyinnovative.Andwhenwetryit,theysortofpatusontheheadandsaylike,"no."Andacolleaguebroughtthatblogposttothedepartmentmeetingandsaid,"soyouthinkwe'reallconservative?"Anditwaslike,"okay.Imean,no,butalsoyes."ButalsowhatifyouhadcommentedonthisblogpostontheblogwherethediscussionaboutitishappeningandwhereIwouldn'thavetosortofpersonallyaccountforwhatisaninstitutionalissue?Instead,ifyou,if,ifthatcolleaguehadengagedinthatspace,theywould'veseenlotsofdifferentvoicesandlotsofdifferentperspectives,butinsteaditbecameapersonalissue.AndIthinkthatpublicworkcansometimesbe,sortof,deeplymisconstruedbypeoplewhodon'trecognizethatyoudohaveapublicprofile,thatyoumaynotbetalkingaboutthempersonally.Youprobablyaren't.Thatthey'relargerinstitutionalcritiquesthatyouaretryingtomake,andmaybenotsuccessfully,butthatIstillthinkthegenerousandfairthingtodoistohavethosediscussionsinthespaceswheretheyhavecontext.Becauseallthatmomentdidindepartmentmeetingwasupsetmycolleagueswhohadnoideawhatwasgoingon.TheyjustapparentlythinkthatI,Irunatrashedblogaboutthemall.


Brenna: 00:38:42 Right?Andthenit'slike,"cool.Thisisnotwildlyhelpful."

Erin: 00:38:46 Thismakesmethink,it'sErin,thatI,youknow,again,wehaveinacademicspacesofallsortsoflevels.Imean,Ican'timaginebecauseit'snotmyexperienceatall.ButI,Isuspectthatifyou'reworkingina,inasecondaryinstitutionoraprimaryinstitutionofeducation,thatthewayinwhichyoudoordonottakeuppublicfeministspaceiscomplexinwaysthatarebeyondmyexperience.The,Iamthinkingaboutthewaysinwhichinuniversitiesandcolleges,publicfacingscholarship,whichissooftendoneby,youknow,women,Peopleofcolor,Indigenouspeople,transpeople,queerpeople,disabledpeoplelike,youknow,allofthosefolksthatpublicscholarshipisslowtoberecognizedasscholarshipbytheinstitutionandcolleagueswhoseinterestsdonotlieinthoseareas.Andtheydon'thaveto.AlthoughitisinterestingtometorememberthatinCanada,mostofouruniversitiesarepubliclyfundedinstitutions,whichisafundamentaldifferencefromotherplaces.But,youknow,noteverybodyhastobeapublicfacingscholarinthewaysthatwe'retalkingabouttoday.Andsotherehastobethenthatinternaladditionallaboroflearningaboutwhatpublic


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scholarshipis,whatitentails,thekindsofskillsandqualitiesthatyouhavetolearn.Thatsortofpedagogicalexperienceofactuallybecomingpraxisorientedinyourscholarshipthatispublicfacing.Andeither,youknow,eithertheinstitutiondecidestolearnhowto,youknow,teachitselfhowtovaluethatscholarshiporindividualshavetodothat.Andthat'sanadditionalkindoffeministlaborthatistheminutia,youknow,thatunseeninvisiblelaborthattakesatollaswell,orcosts.At,attheveryleastatcoststime.AndIthinkit'softenveryworthit.butitisanother,anotherkindoflabor.We'reataconferenceoninstitutionalwork,sothat'sontheforefrontofmymindtoo.

Hannah(Host): 00:41:10 Yeah,that'ssokey,right?Imean,it'salwaysthe,theadditiveframingofpublicscholarship,whichIthinkwe'veprobablyallexperiencedisthatit'snever,"oh,you'redoingthisandsothiswillcountasyourscholarlywork."It's,"Oh,you'redoingthatandthat'sreallygreat,butyou'regoingtohavetodo100%oftheotherexpectedthingsthatyourcolleaguesaredoing,andyou'regoingtohavetodothisthingoverandabove."Butthenalsoyou'regoingtohavetodoallofthismanagementofthefalloutortheexpectationsortherepercussionsorthe,youknow,behindthescenesworkofit,whichforme,2018wasayearoflikewildlevelsofburnoutthatlargelyhadtodowithbehindthescenesmanagementofthefollowofthingsthatIhadsaid.

Brenna: 00:41:56 Ohreally?


Hannah(Host): 00:41:56 Iknowit'snewstoyou.

Brenna: 00:41:58 Newstome.

Hannah(Host): 00:41:58 Yeah,yeah,yeahnoneofthat,definitelynoneofthatwasalsohappeningtoyouforsure.Butthatlikejustthenumberoffuckingmeetings,andemailsandexchanges,andreadingcollectiveagreements,andjustmakingsureIreallyunderstoodacademicfreedomandhowitworkedlikethatisn'tworking.Itisexhaustinganditishardandthat'stheworkthatforsuredoesnotshowupwhenpeoplearelike,"Ooh,youmakeapodcast.That'sneat."Andit'slikeIhavesentlike5,000emailsaboutlike,blowbackforjustoneepisode.Justtheone.

Erin: 00:42:34 It'sErin.Sorry,Idon't,wellIdomean,Igrabbedthemicrightfromyourhand.


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Erin: 00:42:38 [Laughs]Idon'tmeantointerruptyouhere.ButonethingthatIwouldlovetoaddtowhatyou'vejustsaidHannah,isthat,youknow,assomeonewhoalsospentmuchof2018incloseddoormeetings,understandingandgoingthroughcollectiveagreements,andthesesortsofthingstounderstandhowacademicfreedomandresearchworks,especiallyinCanada,wherewehaveinstitutionsthatarerequiredintermsoffederalfundingandprovincialfundingtoincreasinglyturnourscholarshiptoapublicfacingway.Andthentheinstitution,becauseofthewaythatitworks,and,andallinstitutionsaredifferenteach,youknow,universityandcollegeisdifferent.Eachcollectiveagreementisdifferent,butthey'reslowertofigureouthowtosupportscholarsdoingthatwork.Andwe'veseenithappeninarangeofexamples.TheadditionaltributarytothatisthatIrealized,inwhatwasaverychallengingyearformelastyearandaroundtheseissues,theincredibleprivilegetoworkasapublicfacingfeministscholarwithinanacademy.Because,eventhoughtherearemanyexamplesoftheinstitutionfailingfeministsandmanyothers,thereisalso,youknow,inCanada,mostofuniversitieshavecollectiveagreements,notallofthem.Butmostofthemdo.Andsotherearewaysinwhichthereissupportthat,youknow,Imean,IthinkabouttheworkthatsomanyIndigenousandPeopleofcolor,youknow,aredoingonTwitterandthewaysinwhich,andI'mthinking,forexample,ifsomeonelikeArielleTwist,whoIhavethelucktoknowinperson,butalsoseethewaythatsheoperatesontheinternet.Youknow,she'salwayspointingoutthatshe'sdoingthislaborinatotallyprecariousspacewithoutthiskindofinfrastructure.Right?Andsothere's,there'sthattoo.

Lucia: 00:44:39 Yeah.Ithinkforme,thisLucia.OneofthethingsthatIdidn't,ittookmeawhiletorealizebecauseIsortofcutmyteethonpublicfeministyelling--


Lucia: 00:44:47 --inmyPhDwhere,youknow,IknewIwasn'tgoingtobethereforverylong,andIwasastudent.Andpeople,peoplecaredwhatIsaid,buttheyweren'tmessagingmydepartmentheadtobelike,"thiswomanisaliability."Andeveninthepostdoc,asIwasapproachingthejobmarketandthinkingaboutacademicjobs,IthinkI'vebeenwonderingwhatallofthisworkhasdone.Likewasthisagoodidea?Andit's,Idon'tmeanintermsofmyuseoftime,becauseifyoulookatmyCV,Ithinkit,youknow,I'vealwaysbeenlike,Igottohustletodothatotherwork.ButI


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thinkmysortoffeargoingforwardisthat,youknow,Ididn'treallytakethetimetothinkaboutit.Imean,Ididn'thavecertainprotections,butIalsodidn'thavetodealwiththose,youknow,conversations.ButIrealizedwhenIwasinanon-academicjob,nobodyknew.LikenobodywasawareofthiswholeotherlifethatIhave,butIdorememberin2017and2018whencertainthingswerehappening,beinglike,"is,ismybossatthishealtheconomicscompanygoingtogetanemail?"And,sortof,thosefearsaboutbleedingintothisotherlifethatIhadbuiltformyself.ButI'vealways,Ithinkpartofbeingastudentactivistwastheabilitytospeakveryfreelyabouttheinstitutionwithoutfearofrepercussioninsomeways.Butthenalsobeinglike,"oh,Ihaveno,Iliterallydon'thaveprotectionfromthisinstitution,"andthattheprotectionsthatIdependonaresortofinformal.It'sarefacultymembersgonnastickupforme,oraskmehowI'mdoing,oralsosubmitastatement?Andrealizingthattherewasasortoflonelinessattimes.Andbeingwillingtodothatworkandthenrealizingthatotherpeopleweren'tandperhapstheycouldn't.Perhapstheyalsohadthosefearsaboutspeakingoutandbeingpublic.Butyeah,Ithinkthat'sbeenhardformeislike,haveIhave,Iruinedmychancesorwhatever.ButIthinkitjustwasn'tsomethingthatIwasthinkingaboutbecausethe,the,itfelttoourgentthatI,itwasn'tlikeIhadajoblineduporanything,andIdon'tthink,youknow,likewaitingfortenurehasn'tserved,hasn't,hasn'tservedanyoneverywell.

Hannah(Host): 00:47:03 Imean,showmethepersonwhowaslikeplayedatsuperfuckingsafeuptotheminutetheygottenureandthenbecamearadicalafterwards.Like,Imean,maybethere'sanexample,butIthinkforthemostpart,peoplewhoaren'tdoingtheworkbeforetenuredon'tsuddenlygolike,"andnowposttenure."Doyoudisagree?

Erin: 00:47:22 Well...

Hannah(Host): 00:47:22 Imean,you'reallowedtodisagree.Isaidthatinatoneofshockandhorror.

Erin: 00:47:26 I'mjustthinkingof,youhaveoneexamplethatwasreallyimportantforuswhenwestartedHookandEye,anditwasAmerican,anAmericanbloggerwhobloggedunderthenameTenuredRadical.Andthewayinwhichthisbloggerworkedwastosay,youknow,"Iamtenured.Nowletmebreakdowninstitutionalknowledgeforyou."And,andsotherewasa,anovertasopposedtotacitrecognitionthataftertenurecomesnotjustreliefandexhaustionandposttraumaticstressbutalsoadegree,arealdegreeof,ofresponsibilitythatcamewiththe


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freedom.Sothat'sthat.Thatisa,"yes,Iagreewithyou,"andthere'soneparticularexampleinwhichIlearnedactuallyhownottooverexposemyself,whichIalsothinkthatIdidtoomuch.Youknow,whenIwasacontractworker,andI'venotbeenacontractworkerfornowtwoyearsI'minatenuretrackposition,whichisnotpermanentbutisthetracktopermanency.ButwhenIwasacontractworker,Iwrotealotaboutnotjustthematerialconditionsofcontractlabor,whicharesooftenasweknow,butneedtokeepsayinghorrificallyinequitable,butalsotheaffectiverepercussionsofcontractlabor.Andtherewasapoint,andIthinkperhapsit's,youknow,stillthere,inmycareerwherepeopleknewmeformypublicwritingonacademicprecarityandcontractworkratherthanthe,theairquotes"actualscholarship"thatIdid,whichwasthefeministliteraryscholarshipandthatwascuriousaswell.Andthatfeltveryrisky.Veryrisky.

Brenna: 00:49:18 Okay,it'sBrenna.I'mgoingtorespondtosomethingErinsaidandthenI'mgoingtorespondtosomethingLuciasaid.IamdefinitelybetterknowninourcircleasacollegefacultyactivistthanIamasaCanLitscholar.Like90%ofthetimethatI'minvitedtospeakaboutsomething,it'sdefinitelyaboutactivismandnotscholarship.AndIthinkthatwouldfeelalotscariertomeifmyPhDwasn'tstale.Ifliteraryscholarshipwasstilllike,anopportunitythatwasavailabletome,whichImeanIstilldoitoffthesideofmydeskbecauseI'mbelligerentlikethat--


Brenna: 00:49:51 --butI'mnevergoingtobecapitalL,Literature,capitalP,Professor.Andso,Imeanthathasalotoffreedomattachedtoit.IthinkIsaidthisatCongressacoupleofyearsago,butlike,it'sthisgreatsituationofhavinglikefulltimejobthatIenjoy,astrongcollectiveagreement,andastalePhDWhatareyougoingtodotome?Whatdoyouhavetoofferme?Nothing.Whataredoyougonnadotome?NothingthatwasfreeingwhenLuciawastalking,IwasthinkingaboutonespacewhereIdoalotofpublicscholarship,whichisatsciencefictionandfantasyconventions,mmhmm,whichistheplacewhereItakemycomicscholarshipandmyfeminism.AndIserveonpanels,particularlyatNorwesconinSeattle.Andonethingthathasalwaysstruckmeonthefeminismpanelsthereishowmuchmorereallife,theworkthatthosefolksaredoingfeelslikethantheworkthatI'mdoing.AndbythatImeanI'moftenservingonpanelswithpeoplewhohavebeentargetedbyGamergate,byComicsgate,peoplewhohavebeendoxed,peoplewhohavebeenSWATted,peoplewhohavehadtogointoliketheHRattheBankofAmericawheretheyworkasaparttimetellerand


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saylike,"Hey,soI'vebeendoxed,here'swhatthatwordmeanstostartwith.Herearetheconsequencesthatmighthaveforme.Doyouhavemyback?"Andwalkingintheregoinglike,whywouldthey,right?Iamsoinaweofthatwork.AndI'mwildlyawareofhowoftenthatworkisdonebywomenofcolorandqueerwomenprimarily,whofindthemselvestargetedfirstandforemost,andthenwhohaveto,whoarealreadyexistinginprecariousspacesandhavetolivewiththatconsequence.ButlikewhenLuciawassayinglike,"amIgonnahavetoliketrytoexplaintoUBCaccountabletothisliketechnicalwriter?"


Brenna: 00:51:54 Butthat'swhatlikesomanypeoplearehavingtodo,whodaretotaketheiractivismpublic,whodaretochallengethesefranklyridiculousmovementsinourculture,andwhoarerewardedforthatbyjusttheunderscoringoftheirownprecarityandtheyspeakanyway,right?LikeI'mservingonthesepanelswiththesewomenandthey'relike,andsomeofthemhavegreatstoriesabouttheirbossatBankofAmericawhowaslike,"thankyouforintroducingmetotheconceptoftrolling.Yourjobissafeandhere'swhatwe'regoingtodotoprotectyou.We'regoingtoputyouinthisnon-publicfacingpositionforalittlewhileuntilthingsdiedown."Liketherearereallygoodstoriesofpeoplerecognizinglikethatthesewomenarenotcomingintothisthroughanyfaultoftheirown.Butforeverygoodstory,youknowthatthere'sonethatdoesn'tendsohappily.AndIthinkeveninthecaseofbeingacollegescholar,wherewedonothaveacademicfreedomentrenchedinthesamewayasouruniversitycolleaguesdo,thereisarecognitionwithintheinstitutionthatacademicfreedomingeneralisagoodidea,[laughs]right?Andthere'sarespectabilityaboutnotthrowingmeunderthebuswhensomeonecallsthedeanthatprotectsmeinawaythatsomanypeopledon'thaveaccessto.Andthat'slikepartofthereasonwhyanymodicumofinstitutionalprivilegecomeswithsomuchresponsibilityinmymind.Justsomuchresponsibilityto,toamplifyatleast,likeattheveryleasttoamplifythosevoices,toshowthemsomesolidarity.Andthere,thereareamyriadmoresortoflikethrowsomemoneybehindit,right?Likethere'samillionwaystodothatwork,evenforpeoplewhodon'twanttobevocal,whodon'tfeellikethat'stheirrole.ButIthinkifyouhavesafetyandsecurityandyou'renotusingit,what,whatisthepoint?

Lucia: 00:53:48 It'sLucia.OneofthethingsIwasthinkingaboutasyouwerespeakingBrenna,isthatoneofthethingsthat'sbeenreallygoodformeisthatpublicfeminismishowI'vebuiltasafetynetthatislike,it'srelatedtolike,I'mthinkingaboutlikethefolks


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thatI'minaroomwithrightnow.Likeit's,it'speripheraltotheinstitutionbutit'snotlikelockedintoaninstitutioninaparticularway.Andforme,becauseIspeakoutagainstinstitutions,I'vehadtofindthatsafetywithinanotherkindofnet.Andso,youknow,ifUBCisn'tgoingtovouchformecuzIinvoiced,thepresidentwaslike,"payme"andthey'relike[inaudible]makerandI'mlike,"you'renotwrong,butalsopayme."Listener,Iwaspaid.


Lucia: 00:54:33 Butthat,youknow,thepeoplewhosortofthenvouchformearethepeoplethatImeetviatheinternet.Right?LikeI'mthinkingaboutlikelastyearatCongressIwasonaroundtableaboutBlackandIndigenoussolidaritiesandIwasinvitedbyDanielHeathJustice,whoIknowprimarilythroughtheinternet.AndsoIfeellikethosearetherelationshipsthatIdependon,whichiswhyfriendshipissoimportantandjustwhyourpanellatertodayisgoingtobereallygreat.BecauseIfeel,IfeellikebecauseIhaveburnedbridgeswithcertainsortofinstitutionalstructuresthatIreallydependonthatsafetynet,andthat'swhatmakesitpossibleformetodothework.Youknow,thatpeoplewillinterveneonTwitter,orIcantextsomeoneandsay"thisisreallycrappy."ButIcertainlydon'tlooktoinstitutionsforsupport.Andinsomewaysthat'ssortofnotfreeing.Idon'tthinkit'sfreeingtofeelprecariouslyinarelationshipwiththeinstitution,butitmeansthatI'vehadtodevelopotherkindsofconnectionsandsafetynets,andthat'sbeen,yeah,really,reallyvaluable.

Hannah(Host): 00:55:38 Freedom'sjustanotherwordfornothinglefttolose.


Brenna: 00:55:43 I'msorry.Itspreadit.ItwasjustthedeadpanwaythatHannah,it'sfine.


Erin: 00:55:50 Themomentmayhavepassed,butIliveforJanisJoplinreference.WhatIreallywasthinkingthough,intermsofwhatyoujustsaid,Lucia,aboutburningbridges,isthatperhaps,perhapsit'salsothatthebridgeswe'reburningandyousteppedofftosaveyourselfandthoseothernetworksthatyou'vebuilthave,youknow,acknowledgedyes,thatwasa,thatwasafireandyousavedyourself.Andalsodoyouneedsomealoe?Like,letmegetyousomealoe.Right?Youknow,like[laughs].Ithink,


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Ithinkthat'sonethingthatwedoforeachotheroutsideandinsideofinstitutions.HannahandIweretalkingaboutthislastnightisthatfeministfriendship,notjustfeministscholarship,andnotjustnotonly,butcertainlyincludedinthataspublicfacingfeministscholarshipisakindofawildingoftherepressivenatureofinstitutionalspaces.

Hannah(Host): 00:56:48 [Laughs]Alsoit'syeasty.[Laughs]Therewasanamazingpresentationyesterdayoranamazingclipofsomefeministsinthe1970sreferringfeministworkas"yeasty"anditwasreally[sighs]evocative.Yeah,that's,that's,thatone'sforEmilyHovenandIthinkwe'llenjoythatreferencetoyeastinessOkay.ThelastthingthatIwouldliketotalkabout,becauseIamcognizantofthetimeandeditingoutnoneofthisbecauseyou'reallbrilliant,isthatisshame.That'stheotherthingthat[laughs].Iknow,right?Butthat'sthespecificthingCarlawantedustotalkabout.Soherewego.WhichIthinkishelpfultoframearoundthequestionofcalloutsandcallinsandmomentsoffuckinguppublicly,whichformehasbeenthestoryofpublicscholarship,hasbeentheexperienceofmakingmistakes.Particularlybecause,youknow,podcastingiskindofalongformgenreandIgobackandIeditbutit'salsoquiteanoff-the-cuffgenre,andsoIdosaythingsthatIdon'tcatchwhenI'msayingthemandIdon'tcatchinmyedits,orthatIdon'tknow.LikeIdon'tunderstandtherepercussionsofthelanguagethatI'musing.Idon't,youknow,Ihavebeencalledinontransphobiclanguage,onableistlanguage,onnotmakingmypodcastsaccessibleinthewaysthattheyneedtobe.AndIsaycallinsinthosecasesbecausetheyarepeoplewhoarelistenerstothepodcast,intendtocontinuebeinglistenerstothepodcastandaresayinglike,"Iwantyoutosignalthatyouvalueme.Iwantyoutoworkharderonthisthing.Iwantyoutodobetter."Youknow,andIcontrastthatto,tolikeacallout,whichissomebodywhodoesn'tactuallycareaboutthework,doesn'tfeellikepartofthecommunityandjustwantstopubliclyshamemeinsomewayandIhavemoreexperiencewiththeformer,fortunately.Ifeelverygratefultohavemoreexperiencewiththeformer,butit'shappenedalotlikepeoplesayinglike,"Hey,youfuckedupagain.That'sfine.Weallfuckup.Here'swhatwewantofyou,"andhavebeenanswerabletothatand,butIhavecertainlyexperiencedthatsensationofshameandthewaythatthatshamecanproductivelymovemetotryharder,tothinkotherwise,topushmyself,toreadmore,toeducatemyselfallofthesethings.Butthatshamecanalsocauseareaction,andI'veseenithappenincollaboratorsandIfeltitinmyself,ofsaying"perhapsIshalljuststop."Like,maybethisistoohard.MaybeIdon'tlikethewaythisfeelsandIwilljustgobacktodoingthemuchsaferformsofworkthatareavailabletome.


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Brenna: 00:59:36 Iwasthinkingaboutthisyesterday,Hannah,attheconferencewhenyouaskedaquestionofpanel,awholepanel.Hannah,ifyou'veneverhadthepleasureofhearing,Hannahaskaquestioninaconferencesettingisanincrediblygenerousaskerofquestions.Hannahcanpointtowhatisdeeplyproblematicinsomeone'sworkwithouttriggeringadefensiveorashamereactioninthem,givingthemaspacetoholdonandpullthemselvesoutof,oratleastacknowledgewhatisproblematicintheworkthatthey'vedoneorwhatmightbeharmful.AnditwasjustaperfectmomentyesterdaywhenHannahaskedthisonequestioninapanelwheretherewas,sortof,likeacoupleofthingsgoingonthatneededtobeaddressed.Youcantellithasagreatteacherfromthewaysheasksaquestionlikethat.Sogenerousandsowillingtoletpeoplebetheirbestselves.That'sacallin,right?That'sreachingoutandsayingtosomeone,"it'spossibleyouhaven'tthoughtofthisbutyouneedto.I'mgoingtogiveyouthecontextforwhy.I'mgoingtoletyouaddressitalittlebithere,butI'mgoingtoencourageyoutogoawayandthinkaboutit."Andwhatyouseeinthewaypeoplerespondtothosekindsofquestionsiseither"yes,I'mgoingtotakethisopportunity"or"Ihavenothingtolearnfromyou,"andwehadboththoseresponsesinyesterday'sconferenceinresponsetothatquestion.Scholarshipatitsbestissupposedtobethatgenerativecallin.Andideallywhenwetakeourscholarlypracticepublic,weshouldbebothabletodothatwork,butalsotoreceiveit.Right?ThethingthatInoticeasIattendmoretopublic,I'mgonnacallit"publicthinking,"cuzIthinkalotofthepeopleI'mthinkingofwouldnotconsiderthemselvespublicscholarsbutpublicthinking,isthatnoteveryoneisequallyinvitedtobecalledin.Ithinktherearemanyfolkswhopresentthemselvesinawaythatmakesacallinseempointless,right?Imean,I'vehadthisexperiencesomanytimeswhereI'mlisteningtoapodcastandit'ssomebodywhoIlistenedtoallthetimewhoIlikeandrespectandtheysaysomethingandIimmediatelysitdownandIwriteanemail.AndI'vehadthesameexperiencewhereit'sapodcastthatIlistentoallthetimeandIlikeandrespectandtheysaysomethingandIdon't.There'sagendereddynamictothat.There'saracializeddynamictothatIthink,too.Ithinkthatpeoplewhoexistonthemarginsorwhoengagedeeplywithactivistculture,weexpectthemtoreceive,right?Justasweexpectthemtogivewhenappropriate.ButsothisisaroundaboutwayofsayingthatIreallybelievein,maybeIjust,maybethisisjustselfserving,butIreallybelievethatwhenyou'reontherecipientofthatcallinfrequently,itsignalsanopennessinyourscholarshipandopennessinyourthinking,anopennessinyourconnectiontootherpeoplethattheythinkthatthatcallinisworththetime.BecausewhenI'vebeenonthereceivingendofthat,ithas


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paradoxicallyit'sbeenbecauseI'vefuckedsomethingup,butIfuckedsomethingupinthecontextofsomethingthatisworthwhile.Right?Ifit'snotworthwhile,nobodybothersandifyou'reclosedoff,nobodybothers.

Hannah(Host): 01:03:09 Yeah,I,I'vesaiditanumberoftimes,likeinothercontextsthatoftenwhenIambeingcalledin,Ithink,"oh,that'swonderful.Ihavesomehowearnedthetrustofpeoplewhoarewillingtoaskmetodobetter."AndlikeIoftenfeellike,Idon'tknowifIactuallydeservethattrust,butIamgoingtotryreallyhardtohonoritbecauseitisscary,vulnerablework.Likewe'retalkingaboutthevulnerabilityofbeing,youknow,apublicthinker.Itisscary,vulnerableworktoaskpeopletodobetter,tolikethatishardandso,yeah.Yeah,there'salotoftrustthere.

Erin: 01:03:44 IthinktwoofthephysicalreactionsthatI'vehad,whichImeanwewere,wewere,I'mnotgoingtosaywhatentirelywhatweweretalkingaboutbeforewebeganrecording,butweweretalkingaboutgutresponsestothings,right?AmIright?Yes,I'mright.Andyouknow,I've,aswe'vediscussed,I'vebeenonthereceivingandI'vecallinsandcalloutsofthevarietiesofkindsthatwe'vebeentalkingabout.Andthenalsoreally,Imean,you'vesaiditalreadyhadn'tI,butIwanttounderscorelikethatkindofcalloutinwhichthepersonhas,doingthatcallingout,actuallyhasnoinvestmentinyoudoingbetterwhatsoever.They'rejustreallyinterestedinseeingyoufailandthereactionsaresodifferent.Brenna,Ilovethewaythatyou,Imean,talkaboutrealizingthatpeoplearegoodatwhattheydo:teaching,thinking,writing,youknow.Imeaneverybodyinthisroom,everybodythatI'mlisteningto,I'mlearningsomethingfrom,again,ofcoursealways.Butthewayinwhichyoudescribedtheboththe,thekindof,thereceptivenesstobeingcalledinthemorethatithappenswhenyouthink,"wow,thisis,myworkisworththis."Imean,thatmakesmethinkofthewaythatIwastalkingearlieraboutreceivingwhatwouldfeeltome,whatdoesfeel,hasfelttomelikeareallygenerousbookreviewofwritingthatI'vedonethatisnotoverthetoplaudatory,youknow?Imean,that'snice,butitalso,Ifeelsuspiciousaboutitbecause,youknow,nothingthatIwilleverwriteisfreefromthepossibilityofimprovement.And,andso,youknow,that'sgreat,butthosemomentsofcallingoutandcallingin,I'verecognizedinthelast18monthsasI'veexperiencedthemandsortofatasearchthatwasunexpectedandunprecedented,hasaphysicalreactionformethatislikeacortisoldump,andaracingoftheheart,andashakinessthathastakenme,asyouknow,manyofyouinthisroomknow,hastakenme18monthstometabolizebothpsychologicallyandphysically.Andthatisinstructivebecausethatisteachingme,Imeanthat'smybody


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teachingmethingsthatIthoughtIcouldintellectualizemywayoutof,wheninfactthatgutreactionis,ismybodyissaying,"you'renotreadyforthis.Youhavetotakeapausesothatyoucanactuallyseestraighttothink,isthisausefulcallin?Okay,itis.Sowhyareyouhavingsuchaenormousphysicalreactiontoit?Isitbecauseoftheprivilegethatyouoccupyandyou'renotusedtosomebodytellingyouyouneedtodobetter?Here'show.Okay,that'suseful.That'sreallyinteresting.Orisitbecausesomebodyreallydoesn'tlikeyouandthey'regoingforthejugular?Okay,that'suseful.Youdon'tactuallyhavetorespondtothat."

Hannah(Host): 01:06:55 No.

Erin: 01:06:55 That'sactuallynotdiscursive.Thatisoppressive.Thatdoesn'tdeserveyourtime.Sothat'sbeenreallyinstructiveformetoo,learninghowtoliveinthebodythatI'vebeen,thatismybodythatIlivein.What,youknow,likerealizingthatIhaveabodythatknowsasmuchasmybraindoes.DidIjustdosomesortofmind-bodythingthat,Ididn'tmeantodothat,youknow?SorryDescartes.


Lucia: 01:07:21 Ithinkmy,sortof,experiencesof,ofpublicfeminismandshamearetwofold.Again,ontheonehandI,IsaythatlikeIhaven'tbeencalledoutorcalledininsortofverypublicwaysthathavesortofmademefeelthatflushofshame.ButIhavehadexperiencewhereIseeithappentootherpeopleandIgetafraidandmysortoflike,"oh,Idon'twantthattohappentome."Andsortofthisalmostpreemptiveshameandlearninghowtositwiththatandbeinglike,"ifyouaresoworriedaboutyourownegoandyourshameandthatstopsyoufromdoingthework,likethat'sbad."Likeyouneedtodotheworkandbewillingtopreemptivelysitwiththatfeelingofdiscomfort.ButIthinkalsowhatI'mlearning,becauseI'ma,I'mthekindof,IreallyliketobelikedandwhenyoutalkabouthowinstitutionslikeuniversitiesorCanLitarereallyawfulandyou'renotliked,youhavetolearnhowtositwithlike,youcan'tbelikedanddothework.AndI'vehadtolearnthatthatisathing.ButalsoIthinkI'vealsolearned,asaracializedperson,thatsometimesItakeonshamethatisn'tmine.AndlearninghowtositwiththediscomfortofsomebodywhofeelsashamedorfeelsasenseofguiltaboutsomethingthatI'vesaidandbelike,"thatis,thatistheirs."Andtheymightprojectitontomeinaparticularway,butit'snotmyjobtothensortofbelike,swallowitandfeelitchurninginmybellyasmyown.SoIthinkthat,yeah,thesortofpreemptiveshame,whichis,hasinstructedmeasascholar,like


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I'mtakingonaprojectlikeabookprojectrightnow,andIhadtositdownandsaylike,really,Iliterallywrotelikeadeclarationofintentthat'slike,"youhavethesefeelingsandthesebiases.Andthismightmake,likeyouneedtowatchoutforthisandyouneedtodolikeyouneedtodothiscommunityworkandthesesortofthings,"whichisn'tsomethingthat'sgoingtopreventmefromfuckingup.CuzI'msurethatIprobablywill,butnotusingthatpotentialfeelingofshameasanexcusenottoengageintheworkbecause"oh,it'ssoscaryandIwanttobeliked."Butit'sbeenreallyhardtoobecausewhenpeopledon'tlikeme,Ijustwanttoswallowallofthat.AndI,ImeanIdofeel,Idoexperienceshame.It'stheshameofIshouldn't,Ishouldn'thavesaidanything.I'mabadperson.I'msuchatroublemaker.So,solearningwhatshameismindandwhatisn't.Andthenalsolearning,youcan'tintellectualizeyourwayoutofeverexperiencingit,soallyoucandoisbepreparedtodealwithit.

Erin: 01:09:59 Andthatstrikesmeassuchanimportantdifferentiationbetweenfeelingshameandsomethingbeingashame.Youknow?Itwouldbeashamenottotakethetimetopause,andtomoveon,andtomovethrough,ortokindof,youknow,thinkthroughorfeelthroughthosedifferentthingsincludingshame.Youknow,Ithink,yeah.Ithinkthatthere'sareallyinterestingkindofsplitinthe,theflowoffeelingstherebetweenfeelingshameandhavingsomethingbeashame.Whichislamentableright?Lamentableifithappensorlamentablethatitdidhappen.

Hannah(Host): 01:10:37 Yeah.Andbetween,feelingashamedandbeingshamedtoo,right?Likethewaythat,thatthosefeelingsaresortofcomingatyoufromoutsideandcomingfromwithinyououtintotheworld.And,andsooften,youknow,Ithink,Ithinkthat,youknow,preemptiveshame,fearofbeingashamed,incorporationofotherpeople'sexperiencesofshamecanmakeusquiet,canmakeussilentincontextsinwhichweshouldnotbesilent.Andthathasallkindsofthingstodowithlike,beingawomanspeakingpubliclyandbeingtoldthatyouarespeakingtooloudly,thatyoushouldshutup,thatyouaremaking,makingafussinawaythatyoushouldn'tmakeafuss.Andthat,Imeanwe're,we're,we'regoingontotalkaboutfeministfriendshiplatertodayatthisconference,butathingthatIhavebeenthinkingaboutalotlatelyistherolethatfeministfriendshipplays,notjustinboostingyouup,andsupportingyou,andworkingagainstthe,sortof,coercivesociallogicsoftheinstitution,butalsolikehelpingyoutoregistertimeswhen[laughing]youactuallyshouldfeelashamed.Likethegenerosityofsomebodyyouloveandtrustsayinglike,"No.Yeahdude,you,yup.Yup.No,thatwasactuallybad.Thatwasactuallya


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bad,let'stalkabouthowIcansupportyouthroughthis,butlikehmmmnope.Thatwasnotagreatmove."Wehavebeen,wehavebeenrecordingforhourand18minutesandweneedtoleave.Sounlessanybodyhasaburninganythingelse,theywouldliketosay.

Brenna: 01:12:22 Aburningyeastiness,Hannah?

Erin: 01:12:22 [Shrieks]

Hannah(Host): 01:12:24 Aburningyeastiness?Woohoo!Yeah.Okay.That's,thanks.You'reall,you'reallbrilliantanddisgusting.[Music:"RememberMyName"byMitski]

Hannah(Host): 01:12:47 Ifyou'dliketohearmorefromtoday'sguests,they'[email protected]'sGRAY.Luciaisat@empathywarriorandErin'[email protected]'sdiscussion,somearemoreactiveonTwitterthanothers.I'll,ofcourse,includelinkstoeveryone'sworkintheshownotes,whichyoucanfindalongsidealltheepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpmcgregorandyoucantweetaboutthepodcastusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Also,youcangoontoApplePodcastsandreviewtheshow.It'sagreatwayofsupportingthisproject.TherearethreenewreviewsthisweekfromEarthWideHomes,JenMeadowandClairePalmer.Thankyouallsomuch.Thepodcastthemesongis"MeshShirt"byMomJeansofftheiralbumChubRub.Youcandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Asourveryspecialfriendshipthemesong,Ichose"RememberMyName"byMitski.ThisepisodewasrecordedonthetraditionaluncededterritoriesoftheAlgonquinnationandeditedonthetraditional,uncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhfirstnationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[Music:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]

episode 3.30 brilliant and disgusting with brenna clarke ... · secret feminist agenda transcript 1...

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