exhibit b-2 text designations (herrero-solomons) · exhibit b-2 text designations...

Exhibit B-2

Text Designations

(Herrero-Solomons)

Case 5:11-cv-00360-OLG-JES-XR Document 1092-3 Filed 06/13/14 of 480

INDEX TO TEXT DESIGNATIONS

Volume I

Witness Page No.

Anchia, Rafael

Archer, Jeffrey

Aycock, Jimmie Don

Bruce, Bonnie

Callanen, Jacquelyn

Calvert, Rogene

Coleman, Garnet

Davis, Denise

Davis, Yvonne

De Leon, Sergio

Delco, Wilhelmina

Downton, Ryan

Dukes, Dawnna

Dyer, Clare

Farrar, Jessica

Garza, John

Geren, Charlie

Gonzales, Larry

Hanna, David

5

53

65

83

155

171

202

217

224

262

281

304

343

383

402

435

444

474

489


Volume II

Witness Page No.

Herrero, Abel

Hunter, Todd

Johnson, Gordon

Kaufman, Lisa

Lozano, J.M.

Margo, Donald

Marquez, Marisa

Martinez-Fischer, Trey

Menendez, Jose

Moody, Joe

Oliveira, Rene

Pickett, Joe

Raymond, Richard

Rodriguez, Armando

Rodriguez, Eddie

Rodriguez, Jose

Seliger, Kel

Solomons, Burt

5

41

59

63

83

123

145

192

241

249

301

319

363

371

382

428

462

469


Volume III

Witness Page No.

Thompson, Senfronia

Trabulsi, Richard

Turner, Chris

Vo, Hubert

West, Royce

5

71

73

127

156


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations ABEL HERRERO

State Defendants’

Deposition Designations for

Abel Herrero

1



6:10-16

10 I guess before we get started, can you

11 state your full name for the -- for the court reporter,

12 please.

13 A Abel Herrero.

14 Q All right. And what's your current residence

15 address?

16 [REDACTED] Robstown, Texas.

15:4-6

4 Q Okay. So you haven't represented clients or

5 worked as an attorney in voting rights cases, correct?

6 A Correct.

15:20-22

20 Are you an expert in voting rights

21 litigation?

22 A No.

19:23-20:4

23 Q Okay. In 2013, you were present for the 83rd

24 legislative session, correct?

25 A Yes.

Page 20

1 Q You were not on the House Redistricting

2 Committee during 2013 nor during the special session,

3 correct?

2



4 A Correct.

22:8-17

8 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) As far as when you're

9 considering what is an opportunity district, is there

10 any threshold number that you believe exists that makes

11 a district a minority opportunity district?

12 A Is there a percentage threshold?

13 Q Yes.

14 A I believe so.

15 Q Okay. And what is that threshold in your

16 view?

17 A I cannot recall.

26:7-14

7 Q Yeah. Can a community of -- can there be a

8 community of interest without ethnicity being involved?

9 A I think that's part of it, though.

10 Q Well, that's part of it, but so -- so my

11 question is, is there something -- without ethnicity

12 being in the equation, is there something that can be a

13 community of interest without ethnicity?

14 A If you're not talking about people.

27:3-16

3 My question is, are you suggesting that

4 to be a community of interest you have to have the

3



5 same ethnicity?

6 A I think I've answered it. And I said if

7 you're talking about people, that is something that you

8 would consider.

9 Q Okay. Something you would consider, but is it

10 required?

11 A In my opinion?

12 Q Yes.

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay.

15 A Because ethnicities you would have common --

16 common interests.

29:3-6

3 Q All right. Now, you're a member of the

4 Mexican American Legislative Caucus, right? We talked

5 about that.

6 A Yes.

30:3-11

3 Q Okay. And you understand that MALC is one of

4 the plaintiffs that's suing the State of Texas, correct?

5 A I understand.

6 Q You understand that MALC is suing Texas based

7 on the 2011 redistricting plans?

8 A Yes.

4



9 Q You understand that MALC is suing Texas based

10 on the 2013 redistricting plans?

11 A I -- that's my understanding .

30:19-31:2

19 Q Okay. You've previously been an officer with

20 MALC?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay. In fact, you were their -- you were

23 legal counsel for MALC, correct, at one point?

24 A I believe so, yes.

25 Q You held another officer position with MALC,

Page 31

1 right? What was that?

2 A Vice chair.

31:20-32:2

20 Q Okay. I'm going to ask you later about the

21 2013 session, but -- but let me just ask you while we're

22 talking about this, is the -- was the 2013 legislative

23 session in any way out of the ordinary as compared to

24 other legislative sessions that have considered

25 redistricting bills?

Page 32

1 A I don't have a reference point into it

2 personally.

5



42:5-8

5 Did you -- you weren't in Austin

6 participating in redistricting committee proceedings in

7 2011, correct?

8 A Correct.

48:24-49:3

24 Q Okay. Prior to the 2011 legislative session,

25 Nueces County had three House districts, right?

Page 49

1 A Correct.

2 Q Those were House Districts 32, 33 and 34.

3 A Correct.

50:8-21

8 Q Now, I want to talk a little bit about the

9 representatives that were -- that represented these

10 three districts in Nueces County coming into the 2011

11 session.

12 First I want to talk about Representative

13 Todd Hunter. Mr. Hunter was the house district

14 representative for District 32, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q At the time of the session, he had served

17 multiple terms in the Texas House of Representatives,

18 right?

6



19 A Previous terms.

20 Q Okay. Multiple previous terms?

21 A I don't know how many.

51:1-52:7

1 Q Okay. He also served -- he was elected again

2 in 2008 and then again in 2010, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q He was one of the more senior members of the

5 Nueces County -- he was the senior member of the Nueces

6 County House delegation, right?

7 A At what time?

8 Q In 2000 -- in 2011 as the redistricting

9 session began?

10 A He had the most seniority of the three state

11 representatives representing Nueces County in 2011.

12 Q And Mr. Hunter served on the House

13 Redistricting Committee during the 2011 session, right?

14 A I believe so.

15 Q What is your relationship like with

16 Mr. Hunter?

17 A Good.

18 Q Okay. The two of you are cordial?

19 A I'm sorry?

20 Q You're cordial?

7



21 A I consider him a friend.

22 Q Okay. You work well with Representative

23 Hunter?

24 A I do.

25 Q You work on issues together?

Page 52

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. Do you think he cares about Nueces

3 County?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Do you think he effectively represents Nueces

6 County in the legislature?

7 A Yes.

53:19-55:9

19 (Exhibit No. 2 marked.)

20 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) And this is from the -- this

21 is from the House District Plan H100.

22 So this was in place as the 2011 session

23 began, right?

24 A The -- I'm sorry. Ask me that question again?

25 Q The plan H100 was the benchmark plan that was

Page 54

1 in effect in 2011, correct?

2 A Yes.

8



3 Q Okay. And so -- and what this exhibit that I

4 showed you, which is Herrero No. 2, is -- reflects the

5 Hispanic CVAP population for the various House districts

6 in the state of Texas, correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And that reflects that in Mr. Hunter's

9 District 32, 36 percent of the population within the

10 district is -- was 36 percent, right?

11 A Plus or minus.

12 MR. GARZA: Objection; mischaracterizes

13 the exhibit. That's not what it was in 2010. That's

14 what it was based on the community survey.

15 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Okay. Does this document

16 reflect that the HCVAP for House District Plan H100 was

17 36 percent?

18 MR. FREEMAN: Objection; mischaracterizes

19 the nature of the document. Given the nature of the

20 five-year American Community Survey, it's not a pinpoint

21 of any given date.

22 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Okay. You can go ahead and

23 answer.

24 A I can say that with this document that has

25 been handed to me as noted as Deposition Exhibit No. 2

Page 55

9



1 under District 32 shows a Hispanic CVAP of 36.0 with a

2 plus or minus of 1.4.

3 Q Okay. And the -- another representative

4 from -- and by the way, Mr. Hunter's a Republican,

5 right?

6 A Now.

7 Q Okay. He was Republican when he came to the

8 legislative session of 2011?

9 A Yes.

55:15-56:10

15 Let's talk about another district, which

16 is District 34. And that's one you're familiar with,

17 correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And in the legislature of 2011, the

20 representative from District 34 was Representative

21 Connie Scott, right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Ms. Scott, you and Ms. Scott had run against

24 each other back in 2010, correct?

25 A Correct.

Page 56

1 Q And she had won that election by approximately

2 2,000 votes; is that right?

10



3 A That's what I recall.

4 Q Okay. And the two of you had actually run in

5 that district against one another back in 2008 as well,

6 right?

7 A Correct.

8 Q And in that election, you had beaten her by

9 approximately 2,500 votes, correct?

10 A Right.

88:10-89:8

10 Q All right. Let's talk about HD 33.

11 Mr. Raul Torres was a representative of

12 HD 33, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q He was elected, and you can look at it on

15 there and then -- well, what is the HCVAP for HD 33

16 based upon Exhibit No. 2?

17 A For which district?

18 Q District 33.

19 A Based on Deposition Exhibit No. 2, under

20 District 33? Is that what you're asking me?

21 Q Yeah, the HCVAP under HD 33.

22 A Under HD District 33 is, according to this

23 document, 62.2 with a variance of 1.7.

24 Q Okay. Mr. Torres was a Hispanic, correct?

11



25 He's Hispanic?

Page 89

1 A I believe so.

2 Q And he is a Republican, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. So we're clear, as the 2011 legislative

5 session began, Nueces County had three elected

6 Republican House members from Districts 32, 33 and 34,

7 right?

8 A Yes.

91:23-92:4

23 Q Okay. So the question I have is do you

24 believe that the 2011 Texas House redistricting plan --

25 actually, I'll ask about the congressional first.

Page 92

1 Do you believe that the 2011

2 congressional map passed by the House, C185, was enacted

3 for a racially discriminatory purpose?

4 A I don't know.

92:12-17

12 Q Okay. And since your recollection is -- is

13 refreshed, let me ask you, do you have an opinion one

14 way or the other as to whether or not the Texas House

15 redistricting plan was enacted for a racially

12



16 discriminatory purpose?

17 A I do not know.

94:17-95:10

17 Okay. And Exhibit No. 6 indicates that

18 the Texas population from the 2000 -- and you can see

19 the source on the top left, it says, "Data 2010 Census."

20 Do you see that?

21 A I do, sir.

22 Q Okay. And if you look -- well, on the top

23 line of the first page, it indicates the total state

24 population is 25,145,561, correct?

25 A 25,145,561.

Page 95

1 Q Yes. So the state population had grown

2 significantly from 2010 -- from 2000 to 2010, right?

3 A About 5 million people, I think. Am I reading

4 that right?

5 Q I think approximately, yeah. And it's true

6 that -- that the growth experienced in the state, you

7 would agree, was not evenly distributed throughout the

8 entire state, right?

9 A There were more -- there was more growth in

10 certain areas than compared to other areas of the state.

96:19-25

13



19 Q Okay. So the -- and in Nueces County, the

20 figures had indicated that Nueces County had also grown

21 from 2000 to 2010, right? You'd agree with that?

22 A That's my understanding.

23 Q But would you agree that Nueces County had

24 grown at a lower rate than the rest of the State?

25 A I think it depends on what you compare it to.

97:20-24

20 Q Okay. Understood. But when you're comparing

21 Nueces County's growth rate as compared to the rest of

22 the state, it grew at a lower rate than the rest of the

23 state as a whole, right?

24 A Right.

98:6-16

6 (Exhibit Nos. 7 and 8 marked.)

7 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Election results show you

8 that as well. And one is from -- No. 7 is from the year

9 2000 and No. 8 is from the year 2010. And what these

10 are -- what these reflect is census data and populations

11 of different counties as well as the available districts

12 to the right.

13 Before we even get into that, let me just

14 ask you, do you know -- the Texas House of

15 Representatives has 150 seats, right?

14



16 A Yes.

99:6-11

6 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Okay. Do you understand that

7 when -- that the way the population is -- district

8 population is determined is by dividing the overall

9 population of the state by the 150 seats that are

10 available? You understand that, right?

11 A I do.

99:18-100:2

18 Q Sure. The document that I've shown you, which

19 is Exhibit No. 7, indicates -- has a list of counties on

20 the left side, correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q A column marked "POP," for "population" to the

23 right, correct?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q And -- and the number for Nueces County there

Page 100

1 is 313,645, correct?

2 A Yes.

100:7-101:4

7 You understand that the population of

8 313,645 in Nueces County, that the number to the right

9 is the number of districts that Nueces County was

15



10 entitled to by virtue of the population in Nueces

11 County, right?

12 A I think I understand what your question is,

13 and if you assume, then, that the ideal district

14 population is 139,000 --

15 Q Above, correct.

16 A Right. That you take that number and use the

17 population of that respective county and divide, and

18 that would give you a 2.2.

19 Q That's right.

20 A Which would indicate that under an ideal

21 district population based on whatever that population

22 is -- for example, for Nueces County that you would end

23 up with 2.2562 --

24 Q Right.

25 A -- districts representing that county.

Page 101

1 Q That's right. And so you're dividing Nueces

2 County by the ideal district population and you get

3 2.25, right?

4 A Yes.

101:19-22

19 Q At the top of Exhibit No. 8, you can see

20 Rockwall County, that the percentage growth rank was

16



21 80.84, correct?

22 A Okay.

102:13-25

13 Q And it indicates that the percentage growth

14 rank of Cameron was 21.18 percent growth, right?

15 A It does.

16 Q Okay. So Cameron County grew at a level of

17 21.18.

18 Now, let's look at Nueces County, which

19 is -- you have to flip two back -- two pages back. And

20 on the top of the third page, it says Nueces County.

21 And there it lists the population for 2010 as 340,223

22 and the population for 2000 was 313,645, and the overall

23 percentage growth rate was 8.47.

24 Did I get all that right?

25 A That's what it shows, yes.

105:1-5

1 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Mr. Herrero, I've handed you

2 Exhibit No. 9. And on that are the 2010 census figures

3 with the district ratios in the right-hand column.

4 Do you see that?

5 A Yes.

105:11-20

11 And the ideal district population is, I

17



12 think 100 -- can you read that?

13 A 167,637.

14 Q Okay. So can you just look at Nueces County

15 on that list?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And you'd agree the ideal district number as

18 listed in that document is 2.02, right?

19 A Yes. As it's listed in this document, it's

20 2.0294.

106:13-19

13 The U.S. census numbers and the Nueces

14 County numbers, when you divide the ideal population,

15 result in a decrease from the ideal district population

16 ratio from 2.25 to 2.02.

17 You don't have any reason to dispute

18 that, right?

19 A That's correct.

108:24-109:20

24 Q Okay. And so based on the -- on the census

25 numbers, you would agree that the calculation of 2.02

Page 109

1 and in view of the county line rule would necessitate

2 that Nueces County was provided two House districts,

3 correct?

18



4 A If I understand your question correctly, if --

5 with respect to the county and based on ideal district

6 population based on numbers generated from the 2010

7 census, that it would show that it would have 2.0295

8 districts for that county.

9 Q And you're -- okay. And you're familiar with

10 the county line rule? You've heard of that rule?

11 A I have.

12 Q Okay. And it's a rule that's been in place

13 during your entire tenure in the legislature, correct?

14 A That's my understanding.

15 Q It's not just a rule, but it's -- it's

16 something that's located in the Texas Constitution of

17 Article -- Article III, Section 26, right?

18 A I don't know that that's the -- the location.

19 I don't have any reason to disagree with the reference

20 that you made to it.

114:6-18

6 Q Okay. Do you know -- do you believe that

7 the -- that the Hispanic population in Nueces County is

8 sufficient to form a majority in two Texas House

9 districts?

10 So if it were just narrowed to two, do

11 you think it's sufficient -- the Hispanic population is

19



12 sufficient to form a majority that is citizen voting age

13 population?

14 A I believe so.

15 Q Okay. And do you believe that the Hispanic

16 population in Nueces County -- and let me ask you, do

17 you think that was the case in 2010?

18 A No.

123:10-21

10 Q You -- my question -- and personal knowledge

11 is what I'm asking about.

12 You don't have personal knowledge of what

13 the redistricting committee considered when they were

14 reviewing the issue of Nueces County's ideal population

15 with respect to the county line, right?

16 A I don't know what each one of them was

17 thinking, if that's what the question is.

18 Q Do you know if individual members of the

19 redistricting committee sought legal advice on the

20 question?

21 A I can't say from personal knowledge.

124:24-125:16

24 So do you know if any redistricting

25 committee members discussed with outside legal counsel

Page 125

20



1 this issue of the whole county in Nueces County?

2 A Legislative counsel included or not?

3 Q I'm talking about outside private law firms

4 first.

5 A I don't know.

6 Q What about the Texas Legislative Council? Do

7 you know if they were consulted?

8 A I don't know. But I know that as a member of

9 the redistricting committee, they were part of the

10 process; and I don't know if they were or were not in

11 that, in those times that you're asking.

12 Q Okay. And I think along the lines of

13 something you said earlier, you can't tell us why a

14 particular legislator voted for the 2011 redistricting

15 bills, correct?

16 A No, I don't.

128:18-129:17

18 Q And as -- as far as the three sitting

19 legislators from Nueces County going into the 2010

20 session, when they -- since the redistricting plan was

21 offered, there were only two -- two districts, correct?

22 Based on H283 in Nueces County?

23 A Yes. If I understand -- your question is

24 there were three state reps for Nueces County that they

21



25 were in the map, only now going to be two –

Page 129

1 Q Right.

2 A -- State representative seats in Nueces

3 County?

4 Q Right.

5 A Right, that's what this shows in Exhibit 3.

6 Q So if that's the case, then two of the three

7 Republicans would have to be paired that were sitting

8 House district representatives from Nueces County,

9 right?


11 Q And the sitting legislators who were paired

12 were Connie Scott and Raul Torres, right?

13 A Yes. But I think if you're asking me what

14 I --

15 Q No, no, no. My question is just they were the

16 ones that were paired, right?

17 A Yes.

130:9-14

9 Q And you ran -- the court left in place the

10 House district configuration of Nueces County and you

11 ran for the seat, seat 34, in 2012, right?

12 A Yes.

22



13 Q And you won, right?

14 A Yes.

131:23-132:3

23 Q Okay. Is -- is 34 now a Latino opportunity

24 district as it's currently configured and under the

25 election that you ran under in 2012?

Page 132

1 A I believe that it is, as again, because it has

2 now three former state legislators that are Latinos that

3 have a majority of Latino voters in it. 32 would not.

134:10-15

10 Q Every Hispanic voter in the Nueces County was

11 represented by a Republican in 2010.

12 A I can -- I think I know what you're asking.

13 And there were three -- I think I've answered it

14 already. Three State reps were Republican representing

15 Nueces County in 2011.

137:3-11

3 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) Okay. So I'm handing you

4 Exhibit No. 10. Mr. Garza. And this is a transcript of

5 the Subcommittee on Redistricting and Judiciary and

6 Civil Jurisprudence Public Forum in Corpus Christi

7 June 21, 2010, right?

8 A Yes.

23



9 Q You chaired this committee hearing, right?

10 A I would have to look at it. I don't recall

11 now.

139:3-25

3 Q Okay. Now, I assume as being on the

4 subcommittee on redistricting that you felt like it was

5 a -- it was a positive thing to have field hearings in

6 various areas throughout Texas. Is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You thought it was a -- a positive thing to

9 hear from the community and particularly the community

10 in Corpus Christi?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And you valued the opinions of the --

13 of the individuals who appeared at the committee to

14 provide their outlook and viewpoints about redistricting

15 issues?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Okay. And would you agree that -- that the --

18 that during this subcommittee hearing, that citizens

19 came forward and provided their opinions about the

20 upcoming redistricting cycle?

21 A Those that were able to do so did.

22 Q Okay. And you felt like doing this --

24



23 conducting these types of hearings in your community was

24 a valuable exercise?

25 A Yes.

146:1-148:5

1 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) And it says, "REPRESENTATIVE

2 HERRERO: 'Dr. John Long.'" And I'll let you get there

3 first, sorry.

4 Okay. So at the top of page 95, it says,

5 "REPRESENTATIVE HERRERO: 'Dr. John Long.'"

6 Mr. Long says, "Thank you, Representative

7 Hunter and committee for this opportunity to speak. I'm

8 John Long, a plain old citizen of Refugio County. And

9 Refugio County, as you well know, lies on the coast

10 between Calhoun County and Aransas County, that the

11 interests of our county are coastal and coastal-type

12 farming, which includes maize and cotton.

13 "I find it quite inconsistent, and it's

14 my opinion that it is not reasonable, that this county

15 be included with a large land area of district that

16 reaches way over into the center of the state and down

17 into the Valley. So I wish you would consider that in

18 your redistricting. And I offer that as my opinion."

19 Did I read that correctly?

20 A Yes.

25



21 Q Okay. I want to also go to page 58. And here

22 you recognize Alicia Bookout, correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And here, Ms. Bookout -- and I'll read the

25 last paragraph of what she says: "Having lived in the

Page 147

1 Rio Grande Valley for many years, I know that the two

2 areas don't share many common interests. But I live

3 here now, and I love Corpus. And I'm interested in

4 seeing our area represented cohesively and coherently.

5 Thank you for your time."

6 Then I want you to go to page 69. And

7 you can see Representative Hildebran on page 69. and it

8 says -- I'll start in the middle of the paragraph:

9 read] "But what I'm picking up, that there is some

10 interest in this area of having a congressional district

11 that's not tied to the Valley. But you've been around a

12 long time. You've studied the history of

13 redistricting."


15 A Yes.

16 Q I'll read one more to you. It's on page 105.

17 Okay. I'm reading for you Mr. Dalton. He says: "I've

18 got six points I want to make." And I'm going to just

26



19 skim down to the last statement, the last two

20 paragraphs. "And lastly, I think our community of

21 interest should have one port to represent."


23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. Do you recall if during this or any

25 other field hearing, whether or not citizens came

Page 148

1 forward and requested a district that was separate from

2 Cameron County or the Valley?

3 A Yes. But I also thought -- and that's why I

4 was wanting to read through the transcript -- that there

5 were others that testified otherwise.

148:10-149:3

10 Q And some of the citizens wanted Nueces County

11 to be the flagship of its own congressional district.

12 A Anchored by Nueces County, I guess is...

13 Q "Anchored" is a word I've heard or I've seen

14 somewhere.

15 So you agree that some citizens in these

16 field hearings came forward and they came with differing

17 views, right?

18 A Right.

19 Q And some of the citizens came forward and they

27



20 said, "We'd like to have Nueces County the anchor of

21 CD" -- "of its home congressional district."

22 That's what they said, right?

23 A Some did and some did not.

24 Q Okay. And Cameron County has been in the same

25 congressional district as Nueces County. Going into

Page 149

1 2010, Cameron County, Brownsville, was in the same

2 district as Nueces, right?

3 A Yes.

149:23-150:15

23 What I'm saying is that Blake Farenthold

24 was elected to represent CD 27 in November of 2010,

25 right?

Page 150

1 A Correct.

2 Q Okay. And Mr. Farenthold's a Republican,

3 right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Mr. Farenthold is from Nueces County?

6 A Does he live there now or was he originally

7 from there?

8 Q Is he originally from there?

9 A I don't remember.

28



10 Q Okay. Does he live there now?

11 A I believe so.

12 Q Okay. And he, Mr. Farenthold, practiced law

13 at the Kleberg Law Firm in Corpus Christi for seven

14 years?

15 A I don't know that.

150:19-151:8

19 Q Okay. Now, Corpus and Brownsville have -- and

20 you're very familiar with the economic climate of Nueces

21 County, right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q A huge -- huge economic driver within Corpus

24 Christi is the Port of Corpus Christi.

25 A Yes.

Page 151

1 Q It's one of the largest ports in our region,

2 right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now, Brownsville also has a port, right?

5 A Right.

6 Q And so there is a -- their ports compete for

7 business?

8 A Yes.

155:6-25

29



6 Q Okay. Okay. So I want to show you what I'll

7 go ahead and mark as Exhibit No. 11. And I'll show you

8 Exhibit No. 12. All right.

9 (Exhibit Nos. 11 and 12 marked.)

10 Q (By Mr. Sweeten) So we've established that

11 C185 was passed by the Texas legislature in 2011, right?

12 A Yes. That's the one on Exhibit 4.

13 Q Okay. And that -- that new congressional map,

14 C185, no longer had Brownsville and -- and Corpus

15 Christi or Nueces County and Cameron County in the same

16 congressional district, right?

17 A Correct.

18 Q All right. So the first thing I handed you

19 was the -- I think it was No. 11. And that was the --

20 and that -- that document relates to plan --

21 Congressional Plan C100, which was the benchmark

22 coming -- that was in place prior to the 2011

23 redistricting session, right?

24 C100 was the benchmark?

25 A The old District 27.

156:1-157:2

1 Q That's right. Old Congressional District 27.

2 Right.

3 So let's take a look at District 27. And

30



4 in it, it shows, if you look at Cameron County --

5 A What page, sir?

6 Q Oh, I'm sorry. On page -- it's where the

7 subheading District 27 is, second-to-the-last page, so 6

8 of 7.

9 A Okay.

10 Q Okay. So there it says that -- and it shows

11 the counties that make up District 27, right?

12 A They did.

13 Q Okay. And so under C100 Cameron County was

14 309 -- had a population of 309,000 and Nueces County had

15 a population of 340,000, right?

16 A More or less, yes.

17 Q Okay. So you had Brownsville with over

18 300,000 in the district and Nueces County -- I'm sorry.

19 Cameron County with over 300,000, Nueces County with

20 over 340,000; and those two, plus some surrounding

21 counties like Kennedy, Kleberg, Willacy, and San

22 Patricio made up the remainder, right?

23 A Yes.

24 Q So obviously the two biggest centers in

25 population were Cameron and Nueces. That's what that

Page 157

1 shows, right?

31



2 A Yes.

157:9-20

9 Q Okay. Now, like the other document, this

10 document that reflects -- that refers to C185 lists the

11 counties that are in District 27, right?

12 A The new District 27.

13 Q Right. And this was -- this was the plan that

14 the new legislature passed, correct? C185 is the new?

15 A Right. I think that's what it was.

16 Q Okay. So if we look across at Nueces County,

17 of the total population of 698,000 that's within that

18 district, Nueces County is 340,223 citizens within that

19 district, right?

20 A Yeah, that's what it shows.

158:8-16

8 Q Yeah. So up at the top, it says that the

9 total population of District 27 is 698,487 and that the

10 population within District 27 of Nueces County is

11 340,223, right?

12 A Right.

13 Q So Nueces County makes up of District 27 close

14 to 50 percent of the population of -- of CD 27 under the

15 new plan, right?

16 A I'd have to do the math.

32



158:22-24

22 Q Okay. You don't dispute that it's nearly

23 50 percent of the population?

24 A Whatever it would be.

159:2-10

2 Q Okay. It's a little shy of 50 percent. Okay.

3 So now, you also -- if you look at the

4 other counties that are -- that are in CD 27, the next

5 largest population is Victoria at 86,793, right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And so Nueces County is almost four times

8 bigger than the next largest county within District 27,

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

159:15-25

15 Q Unlike the last plan, C100 and the numbers

16 shown there for CD 27, there's not another county within

17 CD 27 outside of Nueces that has a population of over

18 300,000, right?

19 A Right.

20 Q Okay. So I want to ask a little bit about

21 Corpus and Brownsville.

22 Now, they have different NBC, ABC and CBS

23 affiliates, right?

33



24 A They have each respective affiliates for those

25 networks.

160:4-7

4 Q Okay. Corpus has a different -- has the

5 Caller-Times newspaper and Brownsville has the Herald,

6 right?

7 A Right.

163:7-20

7 Q Okay. Lots of -- lots of claims against the

8 State of Texas in this lawsuit by multiple plaintiffs

9 including the Department of Justice.

10 What I'm trying to do is to find out if

11 you, Representative Herrero, have any criticisms about

12 C185 and the plan passed by the 2011 legislature as

13 you're sitting here now?

14 A I don't have any personal specific knowledge

15 of an opinion on that issue. I would have to -- I know

16 I didn't support it in the legislature in 2013. And so

17 it's for those same reasons.

18 But I can't recall sitting here today

19 what the data is that makes me believe that that is not

20 the district that should have been drawn as it is.

181:17-22

17 Q Okay. Let's talk about the process of -- and

34



18 I guess, before I do that, I've got to ask this too.

19 Do you believe that the 2013 Texas

20 Congressional Redistricting Plan was enacted with a

21 racially discriminatory purpose?

22 A I don't know.

184:18-21

18 Q But members of the redistricting committee

19 were present for those field hearings and heard the

20 citizen testimony, correct?

21 A Yes, and that's part of the process.

188:18-189:16

18 You would agree that the 2013 legislature

19 had -- the Senate had its own redistricting committee,

20 right?

21 A Right.

22 Q You weren't a part of those proceedings,

23 correct?

24 A Not officially, no.

25 Q Okay. And you also understand that citizens

Page 189

1 were invited to come in and address issues that they may

2 have with the proposed plans, right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. You understand that multiple Senate

35



5 hearings were held, Senate Redistricting Committee

6 meetings were held that allowed for citizen input?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You understand that the House also had its own

9 redistricting committee, correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Chaired by Chairman Drew Darby, right?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you also understand that Chairman Darby

14 had multiple -- that the redistricting committee had

15 multiple hearings that solicited public input, correct?

16 A I believe so.

36


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations TODD HUNTER

State Defendants’


Todd Hunter

1



5:20-21

20 REPRESENTATIVE TODD HUNTER,

21 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

32:16-34:24

16 Q. Great. What was the purpose of the 2010 field

17 hearings?

18 THE WITNESS: It will be a narrative.

19 MR. SWEETEN: No, you can -- you can

20 respond to the question, yeah.

21 A. The hearings were to educate the public that

22 redistricting was coming. It was to educate the public

23 on demographics and information that we were getting from

24 the state demographer. It was to allow areas of the

25 state to give us their ideas. It was to allow areas of

Page 33

1 the state to not be surprised and wake up to find out

2 they have another legislator who they didn't know would

3 be their legislator. The other idea was, let's prepare,

4 let's get ready, let's make everybody understand,

5 legislators and public, so they're not surprised in 2011.

6 2010 was to educate, make everybody aware, start

7 discussing the issues, start engaging the issues, get the

8 public involved. And they were given until December 31,

9 2010, to get any other further information that they

2



10 couldn't get at any of the field hearings, and we thought

11 this was a great comprehensive way to involve the

12 legislators and the public and to try to involve

13 different areas of the state.

14 Q. Did the 2010 field hearings have any other

15 purposes besides what you've named?

16 A. It gave people an opportunity, the public, to

17 propose plans and concepts. We had some plans and

18 concepts being proposed. It allowed legislators to start

19 looking at their areas to come up with their plans and

20 proposals. It also gave the public and legislators,

21 hopefully, 2010 so they could use that preparation time

22 when all the information started moving in 2011 so it

23 wasn't a rush. They were given plenty, plenty of time.

24 And the other idea was, let's start the discourse, let's

25 start the engagement, let's start everybody talking to

Page 34

1 try to get alignment and try to make this a process that

2 was open.

3 Q. Were there any other purposes for the 2010

4 field hearings?

5 A. I think that covers it.

6 Q. Okay. What was your role in planning the 2010

7 field hearings?

3



8 A. My role was joint with the chairman of

9 Redistricting. Both of us worked together.

10 Q. And what -- what did you do to plan the 2010

11 field hearings?

12 A. We talked to members on Redistricting

13 Committee, members on Judiciary Committee, and members in

14 the House to find out what areas of the state we should

15 host hearings.

16 Q. And did you choose the ultimate locations?

17 A. We jointly chose and we deferred to members on

18 picking locations.

19 Q. Okay. Who had authority to decide the final

20 list of locations?

21 A. Both committees.

22 Q. Okay. And was there any vote by those

23 committees or it was just a discussion?

24 A. It was just discussion.

35:4-21

4 Q. Okay. In terms of the planning process, is

5 there anything else that you did to plan for the

6 hearings?

7 A. Well, we publicized it. We gave it to the

8 media. We provided notice of all the hearings. We did

9 everything we could to at least place it on electronic

4



10 notification so that the public would know and would

11 attend, and we encouraged legislators who were not on

12 Redistricting or Judiciary to attend.

13 Q. And how did you publicize it?

14 A. I personally did not, but it's my understanding

15 that either the staff of the committees or the Speaker's

16 office personnel took the notices and sent them to the

17 media outlets.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And if we held it in a member's jurisdiction,

20 we relied on that member to notify everybody in that

21 jurisdiction.

36:6-13

6 Q. Am I correct that the Senate Redistricting

7 Committee was not involved in the planning of the 2010

8 field hearings?

9 A. You're incorrect.

10 Q. I'm incorrect? How was the Senate

11 Redistricting Committee involved?

12 A. Because they contacted us to join with us on

13 some field hearings.

36:16-37:10

16 Q. Which hearings did they contact either the

17 House Redistricting Committee or the House Judiciary and

5



18 Civil Jurisprudence Committee about?

19 A. Dallas, we had a joint hearing, and I think

20 there was a West Texas one, and I believe there was

21 something -- I can't remember, but I do remember Dallas.

22 Q. Okay. Did members of the Senate Redistricting

23 Committee ever preside at any of the 2010 field hearings?

24 A. I believe they were joint.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 37

1 A. So everybody was equal.

2 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge -- you've only

3 mentioned two hearings at which senators participated in

4 a joint hearing. To your knowledge approximately how

5 many more do you recall of the field hearings had -- were

6 jointly conducted with the Senate?

7 A. I recall Dallas. I said I think there was a

8 West Texas.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. There may have been a Houston one.

38:8-40:21

8 (Exhibit No. 2 marked)

9 Q. Chairman, have you seen this document before?

10 A. I'm sure I have. I don't recall.

11 Q. What is this document?

6



12 A. The document is called Interim Report by the

13 House Committee on Redistricting, January 2011.

14 Q. And does this document contain a list of the

15 2010 field hearings beginning on page 3?

16 A. It appears to provide a list of hearings.

17 Q. And if we could just proceed through this.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. To your recollection did you attend the field

20 hearing on June 21, 2010, in San Antonio?

21 A. Let's see here. All right. Well, I think the

22 first one was June 2 in Austin. Yes.

23 Q. And so you attended June 2 in Austin?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That was the full committee.

Page 39

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That was why I skipped that.

3 A. Oh, okay.

4 Q. And it was in Austin. And that June 2, 2010,

5 hearing, that was for invited testimony only, correct?

6 A. It says that here. I don't recall.

7 Q. Okay. Do you recall if you attended the

8 June 21, 2010, hearing in San Antonio?

9 A. Yes.

7



10 Q. Did you attend the July 19 hearing in McAllen?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you attend the July 20 hearing in Laredo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I assume you attended the July 21 hearing

15 in Corpus?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you attend the August 16 hearing in

18 El Paso?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you attend the August 18 hearing in

21 Lubbock?

22 A. I don't think so.

23 Q. Did you attend the September 20 hearing in

24 Dallas?

25 A. Yes.

Page 40


2 Arlington?

3 A. Yes.


5 Richardson?


7 Q. Did you attend the October 18 hearing in

8



8 Beaumont?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you attend the October 20 hearing in

11 Marshall?

12 A. I don't believe so.

13 Q. And did you attend the October 27 hearing in

14 Abilene?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did you attend the November 17 hearing in

17 Austin?

18 A. I believe so.

19 Q. Did you attend the November 20 hearing in

20 Houston?

21 A. I believe so.

41:5-10

5 Q. Do you recall seeing Gerardo Interiano at any

6 of the 2010 field hearings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know how many of these hearings he

9 attended?

10 A. No.

43:5-44:6

5 Q. Does the January 2011 interim report of the

6 Texas House Redistricting Committee describe the

9



7 information that the committee gathered regarding

8 redistricting of legislative, congressional, and State

9 Board of Education districts?

10 A. It references --

11 MR. SWEETEN: Objection, vague. But go

12 ahead.

13 A. It references it.

14 Q. It references the hearings, but it doesn't

15 describe the testimony that was given at the hearings,

16 does it?

17 A. It does in Carol Alvarado's attachment.

18 Q. That's a separate appendix to the report. So

19 excluding that appendix, does the interim report describe

20 the information that the committee gathered during the

21 field hearings? I'll ask about the appendix in a moment.

22 A. Okay. Specifically, no. Generally, yes.

23 Q. Generally it just states that information was

24 gathered, but it doesn't convey what that information

25 was, correct?

Page 44

1 A. I agree.

2 Q. Okay. But as you just said, the letter from

3 Representative Carol Alvarado that's attached as an

4 appendix does provide a partial description of the 2010

10



5 field hearings, correct?

6 A. It provides her comments.

44:24-45:6

24 Q. Okay. Am I correct that this is the only

25 information conveyed in the 2010 interim Redistricting

Page 45

1 Committee report or its appendix regarding the substance

2 of testimony at the 2010 field hearings?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And why is that?

5 A. Because I think this is personal comment, not

6 substance. This is an opinion by a member.

63:17-64:6

17 Q. Okay. Let's move over to the 2010 trip to

18 visit the congressional delegation.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. When did you take that trip?

21 A. All I remember, it was after the Arlington

22 field hearing.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. That's all I can remember.

25 Q. Well, am I correct, based on the January 2011

Page 64

1 interim report, that the Arlington field hearing was on

11



2 September 21, 2010?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. So sometime after September 21, 2010?

5 A. I believe you're correct. I'll rely on you.

6 Yes.

65:17-25

17 Q. Do you remember what members of Congress you

18 met with?

19 A. Some, yes.

20 Q. Who did you meet with?

21 A. Lloyd Doggett, Henry Cuellar, Shirley Jackson

22 Lee, Lamar Smith, Ron Paul, Charlie Gonzalez. I may have

23 met more in a grouping in a hallway someplace, but

24 those -- and then I met a couple of the congressmen from

25 Dallas, I think.

66:23-24

23 Q. How did the meetings -- what was the substance

24 of the meetings?

67:5-68:3

5 Q. As a general matter.

6 A. The purpose for going to meet with Democrat and

7 Republicans in Congress were to inform them of the

8 hearings, inform them of getting any information to the

9 committee, inform them of the process, make them aware of

12



10 what we could. It was basically, we're here to let you

11 know of next year's redistricting, and any opportunity

12 you would like to discuss with us, meet with us, visit

13 with us, we're here, and the purpose was to be

14 bipartisan, going up there to talk. Some of the members

15 I know, as I indicated early on. I've just known them

16 for a while. And so I had a very, very good discussion

17 with every member that I talked to that I can remember,

18 and they were very friendly in discussion, but it was

19 mainly informational to give them an opportunity to plug

20 into what we were doing and I wanted them completely

21 aware of the issue, because they're in Washington, D.C.,

22 and we're in Texas.

23 Q. Do you think that members of Congress are not

24 aware that redistricting comes in the years following the

25 census?

Page 68

1 A. I can't tell you what Congress is aware or not,

2 but I think it's prudent to be on the side of trying to

3 get them involved and engaged and to make them aware.

72:13-22

13 Q. Did you retain any outside consultants, you

14 personally, to draw maps of Nueces County?

15 A. No.

13



16 Q. Are you aware of who made the final map of

17 Nueces County for the House 2011 plan in terms of the

18 very precise lines that were made?

19 A. No. But it's all me, so whatever happens is

20 me.

21 Q. You signed off on the final map?

22 A. I signed off, and anything that was done is me.

84:7-85:1

7 What was the purpose of the amendment that

8 you offered on the floor of the Texas House during the

9 2011 debate over the House plan?

10 A. 2011?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. What I can recall is, in my discussions with

13 our delegation this amendment would have given -- it

14 would have actually -- it was a way we could shift some

15 precincts that complied with the county line rule and the

16 federal law at the time. We discussed it with the

17 delegation. They seemed to be fine, and so we were going

18 to do that. It was kind of a generalized thought at the

19 time, talk with them, and they felt that -- I think some

20 of the precincts maybe some people had had contact with

21 before or knew people, and it fit within the law

22 category, and that's what we were concerned about is the

14



23 law category.

24 Q. Did you have any other reasons for wanting to

25 shift those precincts?

Page 85

1 A. No.

116:16-119:5

16 BY MR. SWEETEN:

17 Q. You were on the Redistricting Committee in

18 2013, correct?

19 A. In 2013, yes.

20 Q. And you were part of the process, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you attend -- were there field hearings

23 held during the 2013 process?

24 A. Yes, there were.

25 Q. Did you attend those field hearings?

Page 117

1 A. I believe I attended all of them.

2 Q. Okay. Did you attend committee meetings in

3 2013?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. On redistricting?

7 Q. Correct.

15



8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, there was a plan that was passed out of

10 HD 58, which is the House plan, and then the

11 congressional plan C 235. Did you review the court's

12 order with respect -- the interim order passed by the

13 court in February of 2012?

14 A. I probably reviewed the order or I -- I

15 reviewed part -- are you talking about the federal court

16 in San Antonio?

17 Q. Yes, sir.

18 A. I probably reviewed parts of it. I can't tell

19 you that I read everything.

20 Q. Okay. Was that the starting point for the

21 analysis on the House and congressional plans that were

22 reviewed in 2013?

23 A. I believe so.

24 Q. Was the House plan passed -- was the interim

25 plan -- interim San Antonio court order passed by the

Page 118

1 House?

2 A. I believe the federal court San Antonio plan

3 for the state House districts was passed with some

4 modification.

5 Q. There were amendments taken?

16



6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The congressional plan, was it -- was it

8 passed -- the interim plan by -- by the San Antonio

9 court, was it passed by the House?

10 A. I believe it was.

11 Q. What was the purpose of passing the

12 redistricting bills in 2013?

13 A. From those of us in Redistricting, we felt like

14 the interim plan by the federal court met the

15 requirements, the legal, the factual, the discussions

16 throughout the trial, and some of us that have the lawyer

17 involvement, you know, respect the judiciary. They

18 started with that. There were some modifications on the

19 state House, and I believe that we felt it was legal and

20 it -- it met the state and federal law and was equitable,

21 fair, and we did work with some members to modify the

22 state plan, which we did, and that's how we moved

23 forward, but we felt that it was a good basis and we felt

24 that it was fair and equitable and met the federal and

25 state standards and --

Page 119

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- we went forward.

3 Q. Is that the legislative purpose for passing

17



4 those bills?

5 A. Well, it was our legislative purpose, yes.

18


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations GORDON JOHNSON

State Defendants’


Gordon Johnson

1



4:20-22

20 Q. Sir, if you would please give your full name

21 for the record.

22 A. Gordon Robert Johnson.

10:24-11:1

24 Q. And let me go back. When did you begin

25 working for Speaker Straus?

Page 11

1 A. July of 2009.

11:18-19

18 Q. And do you still work for Speaker Straus?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

16:2-16

2 Q. Did you grow up in Dallas as well?

3 A. No, ma'am. I grew up here. We moved down

4 here -- I was born in December of 1961, and we moved

5 down here in January of '63. And I've been here --

6 except for going away to school, I've been here since.

7 Q. When did you go away to school?

8 A. I left and went to A&M in 1979. And then from

9 there, I went to Houston to go to South Texas College of

10 Law. And then I moved back here when I was finished

11 with law school in December of '86.

12 Q. Is that when you graduated from law school?

2



13 A. Yes, ma'am.

14 Q. And you went to Texas A&M. What degree did

15 you receive there?

16 A. Petroleum engineering.

26:10-13

10 Q. Did you have any other roles with respect to

11 the 2011 redistricting process, other than calendar

12 management?

13 A. No, ma'am.

35:11-22

11 Q. Sir, did you feel that you had any influence

12 during the 2011 redistricting process?

13 A. No, ma'am. On redistricting or --

14 Q. Yes, sir.

15 A. No, ma'am. I don't feel I have any influence

16 on anything we do. I wish I did, but --

17 Q. Without being modest.

18 A. -- I don't feel like I do. They don't

19 listen -- it's like being at home, nobody listens to me.

20 Q. Did you provide any opinions or consulting on

21 the 2011 redistricting process?

22 A. No, ma'am.

48:14-49:2

14 Q. Are you aware of any influence that members

3



15 outside of the redistricting committee, such as

16 yourself, had on the 2011 redistricting process?

17 A. Members or people?

18 Q. Let's start with members.

19 A. I would imagine -- I'm not aware of any, no,

20 ma'am. I --

21 Q. Strictly in your personal knowledge.

22 A. No, ma'am.

23 Q. Are you aware of any influence that people

24 outside of the legislature had on the redistricting

25 process?

Page 49

1 A. No, ma'am, I'm not aware of -- there's nothing

2 I could -- no, ma'am. No, ma'am.

60:25-61:2

25 Q. What power would you have had to control the

Page 61

1 drawing of those districts?

2 A. None.

4


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations LISA KAUFMAN

1

State Defendants’


Lisa Kaufman



2

4:14-16

14 Q. -- we'll skip the introductions, but why don' t

15 you state your name for the record, please?

16 A. Lisa Kaufman.

24:2-22

2 Q. Okay. What was your role in the Speaker's

3 Office specifically with regard to the 2012

4 redistricting process?

5 A. Like tax, education, health and human,

6 redistricting was a policy area that we covered, and I

7 had a staff person assigned to cover redistrictin g just

8 like I would tax or health and human or education or

9 anything else.

10 Q. And who is that person?

11 A. Gerardo Interiano.

12 Q. Were you Mr. Interiano's supervisor?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. Was there anyone in-between you and

15 Mr. Interiano?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you hire Mr. Interiano?

18 A. The Speaker actually hired Mr. Interiano, but I

19 interviewed with him prior to his joining the st aff.

20 Q. Okay. And did you report directly to the

21 Speaker?

22 A. I did.

25:10-22



3

10 Q. Okay. Well, turning back to redistricting,

11 tell me what you did in that role in the Speaker 's

12 Office with regard to redistricting. It was a po licy

13 area, sure, but tell me what that means.

14 A. I would advise Gerardo in terms of what -- wh at

15 the process was in terms of getting a bill throu gh. I

16 would have regular meetings with him about where we

17 were. Honestly, I dealt with it just like I woul d of

18 any other policy area. He would do regular repor ts to

19 me, just like all my other staff, in terms of wh ere we

20 were, where the problems were. If I needed to ta lk to a

21 member, the direction we wanted to go or the tim ing of

22 things. That's basically how it worked.

26:18-27:2

18 Q. You said you handled outside contracts in bot h

19 of the redistricting cycles that you were involv ed with.

20 Why have outside counsel to begin with? There ar e a lot

21 of lawyers right inside the Capitol.

22 A. There's a lot of lawyers, but as you know,

23 redistricting is sort of a specialized area and not one,

24 fortunately, that we do more than every ten year s, and

25 so it doesn't allow for -- it doesn't make any s ense

Page 27

1 internally for us to keep a lot of redistricting lawyers

2 during the interim periods between decades.

31:1:32:2

1 Q. What sorts of things would Mr. Interiano need



4

2 to come and meet with you about?

3 A. Where we were with the maps, what -- you know,

4 they had run reports on this or that, maps that w ere

5 drawn, members that wanted this or that, how the numbers

6 looked, anything, really.

7 Q. And when Mr. Interiano came to you with an

8 issue like that --

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. -- how would those issues get resolved?

11 A. It depended on the issue. Sometimes I would

12 say you need to go talk to this member or that m ember.

13 Sometimes I would say you need to talk to the he ad of

14 that delegation or this delegation. Sometimes it would

15 be talking to the chairman, obviously, Represent ative

16 Chairman Solomons. Sometimes it would be the Spe aker.

17 Depending on the issue.

18 Q. Would there ever be a time when -- were there

19 any occasions when you would simply make a decis ion?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Were there any occasions --

22 A. Well, let me back up. Yes, I'm sure there wer e

23 times that I just made a decision, so it kind of depends

24 on what the -- what the issue was. You know, the whole

25 process was very member-driven, and so I'm sure that

Page 32

1 there were times where I directed him to go back and

2 deal with the member or the multiple members.



5

35:14-23

14 Q. What role did you have in the redistricting f or

15 Bexar County in 2011?

16 A. I didn't have any direct role in redistrictin g

17 the House. The members of Bexar County through t heir

18 delegation worked on the map for Bexar County, d id all

19 the -- basically, all the other major urban cent ers. So

20 I would have gotten information from them on the ir map.

21 But I didn't have any direct involvement in -- t he

22 process was member-driven, so it was -- I took m y cues

23 from the members.

36:7-36:17

7 Q. Thinking about Bexar County and redistricting

8 the House map for Bexar County, did Mr. Interiano come

9 to you with issues that you needed to discuss or resolve

10 with him?

11 A. He probably did, but I can't remember anythin g

12 specific to Bexar County. My recollection on Bex ar

13 County really was that Mr. Villarreal and Ms. Mc Clendon

14 were the delegates or the -- the heads of those

15 delegates -- of those groups of those counties t hat ran

16 most of their stuff through those members. That' s --

17 that's really my recollection of Bexar County.

37:11-38:1

11 Q. What was your role in redistricting Dallas

12 County?

13 A. Again, I didn't have any individual role in



6

14 that. It was the Dallas County delegation drew a map

15 and would then bring it to -- that was at the ge neral

16 Speaker's direction, "Let the members draw the m ap."

17 The members would draw the map and bring it to t he

18 chairman. I don't recall anything specific to Da llas

19 County. Again, it was different than that.

20 Q. You don't remember having to resolve disputes

21 among members with regard to Dallas County?

22 A. Not -- yeah, not -- not with regard to Dallas

23 County, I don't. I can't say they always got alo ng, but

24 I can't say that I remember this member and this member

25 had an issue. I don't have a recollection of tha t in

Page 38

1 Dallas County.

39:2-10

2 Q. (By Mr. Sells) Okay. What about Hidalgo

3 County, what was your role in drawing the boundar ies for

4 Hidalgo?

5 A. It's going to be the same every time, which is

6 that, you know, we asked members in those distric ts to

7 draw their district, and if we could make them al l work,

8 then we plugged them in like a puzzle piece. If w e

9 couldn't, then we would have to maneuver around t o make

10 it all fit together.

39:24-40:9

24 Q. (By Mr. Sells) What about Nueces County?

25 A. Nueces County, the discussion was whether or



7

Page 40

1 not -- how many seats should be in Nueces County, and I

2 remember a lot of discussion about that.

3 Q. Okay. What do you remember?

4 A. I remember that there were certain members tha t

5 thought that they should have more seats in Nuece s

6 County than other members thought that they shoul d have

7 in Nueces County.

8 Q. Which members?

9 A. Representative Hunter, in particular.

41:7-22

7 Q. What do you recall about how that got resolved ?

8 A. It got resolved when the official numbers came

9 out to determine whether or not Nueces County act ually

10 had the amount, the numbers that they would have another

11 seat or not have another seat. So if -- that mig ht have

12 been a directive I would have given Gerardo at t he time,

13 which was, let's wait and see what the numbers l ook

14 like.

15 Q. And do you remember what you did after the

16 numbers came out?

17 A. I believe they only have two seats.

18 Q. Did you make that call?

19 A. No, the numbers made that call.

20 Q. I want to shift focus to the Congressional pl an

21 briefly.

22 A. Okay.



8

42:1-6

1 Q. Tell me, generally speaking, how that map was

2 drawn.

3 A. I believe that the congressional delegation,

4 working through Congressman Smith, drew a map, an d that

5 they brought it to us after they -- there was a m ap

6 drawn.

42:13-15

13 Q. When you said "they brought it to us," who

14 brought it to us?

15 A. Congressman Smith.

43:25-44:4

25 Q. Why was the Texas House more your concern tha n

Page 44

1 Congress?

2 A. Because I worked for the House and I worked fo r

3 the Speaker and the Speaker is elected by the Hou se

4 members.

60:5-9

5 Q. (By Mr. Sells) So, Ms. Kaufman, I want to

6 focus your attention now on a specific time perio d in

7 the redistricting process, that being November an d

8 December of 2010.

9 A. Okay.

60:18-61:9

18 Q. What else do you remember about that time

19 period with regard to the redistricting process?



9

20 A. I'm sure we were getting ready for -- I mean,

21 we were going right into session in January, so we were

22 getting ready for session. And in addition to hi ring,

23 you know, staff to handle redistricting, I think that's

24 the time I did the beta testing on RedAppl. And

25 sometime during that period, it might have been a little

Page 61

1 bit before that period -- before -- maybe it was in

2 October as opposed to November, but it could have been

3 in November, I went to Washington, D.C. on behalf of the

4 Speaker to meet with at least some -- we did it i n two

5 trips, part of the congressional delegation, to j ust

6 tell them that, you know, we're going to start on

7 redistricting and our door is open and they shoul d feel

8 free to come in and talk to us about it or send u s

9 information.

66:23-68:14

23 Q. (By Mr. Sells) What is Exhibit 3?

24 A. It appears to be an e-mail from Mr. Interiano

25 to myself and Mr. Hull with a cc to Mr. Opiela d ated

Page 67

1 December 7, 2010.

2 Q. And this is an e-mail from Mr. Interiano's

3 personal account, correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And is this to your personal account or to you r

6 State account?



10

7 A. I can't tell.

8 Q. And what is this e-mail about?

9 A. It's about data that Mr. Interiano is trying t o

10 get, and it appears that he's being responsive t o the

11 previous -- or some iteration of his previous qu estions

12 about types of data and when we could get it.

13 I can tell you, in reading this, it does

14 refresh my recollection that the legislative ses sion

15 situation is only 140 days, and so we had a lot of angst

16 about when the -- the census data would come in and how

17 that -- we couldn't really wait for that to happ en in

18 order for us to get the maps drawn and -- to sta rt

19 drawing the maps at that time.

20 So I do recall that, you know, Gerardo

21 would have been directed to start trying to get people

22 to have discussions about the maps or get some s ort of

23 preliminary drawing of the maps without having t he most

24 accurate numbers drawn before -- was it February or

25 March is when the numbers came in? I don't reall y

Page 68

1 recall exactly when -- so that we had something t o start

2 with. And I -- there was a discussion somehow tha t

3 Maptitude, which is a private company, I think, t hat --

4 I've actually never been on it, but I think it's a

5 system similar to RedAppl, but it's a private ven dor --

6 thought that the data that they had or could have would

7 be more timely than the data that RedAppl was usi ng



11

8 based on the previous census numbers. And so I th ink

9 that was the discussion was, okay, is there a way for us

10 to use the Maptitude numbers in the RedAppl syst em,

11 because obviously, we had to do it in RedAppl, s o that

12 at least we could get started and not have to wa it until

13 March to at least have something to start with. So I

14 think that's that this discussion was about.

70:1-71:4

1 Q. Okay. Do you know why Mr. Interiano says that

2 he's looking for data at the census block level?

3 MS. COLMENERO: Objection as to the extent

4 it calls for speculation.

5 A. No.

6 Q. (By Mr. Sells) Do you know why Mr. Interiano

7 would be seeking data which wasn't publicly avail able?

8 MS. COLMENERO: Same objection.

9 A. Well, we get data all the time in the

10 legislature that's not publicly available, so th at

11 doesn't surprise me. I'm sure that he was trying to get

12 at much -- again, because we didn't have the rea l

13 numbers yet or the authorized numbers yet, we we re

14 trying to get as much data as we could to get th e

15 process started. So he says, "So we are moving i n a

16 good direction," if you look at the second to la st

17 sentence, that's -- that's what his reference is , what

18 he's directing at me, which was I'm -- I'm movin g that

19 process forward so that we're ready to either ha ve a



12

20 map -- you know, the first map filed or -- or ha ve

21 hearings or whatever it was. And available publi cly

22 also may have been -- you can ask Leg Council, b ut I

23 think that our -- our internal Leg Council isn't the

24 same as -- I mean, our internal RedAppl wasn't e xactly

25 the same technology as what the public uses. And so

Page 71

1 when he says "not available publicly," he might h ave

2 meant that, which was that the -- it wasn't avail able on

3 the public's RedAppl, but it was available on our --

4 there was a way for us to get it on our RedAppl.

81:2-84:22

2 Q. (By Mr. Sells) What is Exhibit 6?

3 A. It's an e-mail from Gerardo dated March 29,

4 2011, to Denise and myself.

5 Q. And what is this about?

6 A. It appears to be Gerardo asking us to approve

7 these talking points to give to the Speaker about a

8 meeting between the Speaker and Chairman Solomons .

9 Q. So how -- educate me about why the Speaker

10 would need talking points for a meeting with Cha irman

11 Solomons?

12 A. Okay. Because -- as true of any subject, I

13 mean, first of all, the Speaker has 149 other me mbers,

14 all of their issues, all of his standing committ ees and

15 the 7,000 bills that get filed. So he can't real ly be

16 expected to have day-to-day knowledge about thos e



13

17 issues. And you'll see where he says on here, on the

18 second bullet point, "Allow for the budget to de bate to

19 end." That -- at that point in time over -- over

20 everything else was this 27 billion dollar short fall.

21 And so that was the thing that the Speaker was m ost

22 involved in, the most contentious thing that was going

23 on, and how we would -- and the only constitutio nal duty

24 that we had, the one thing that he had to get pa ssed was

25 that. And so the day-to-day running of redistric ting or

Page 82

1 education or anything else, he left to the his ch airmen.

2 That's -- partially, that's his style anyway. It was a

3 -- that's part of what the shift was between Crad dick

4 being Speaker and Straus becoming Speaker was tha t they

5 wanted -- the membership wanted to be back in con trol.

6 They didn't want it to be top -- so top heavy. So the

7 Speaker's style was much more -- I don't know if

8 bureaucratic is the right word here, but more tea m

9 approach as opposed to top-down driven. And so he let

10 his chairmen do their jobs. And he would have we ekly

11 chairmen meetings. And sometimes when a big bill was

12 coming up or a big subject matter was coming up,

13 depending on what it was, that he would have the

14 chairmen come in and kind of brief him. So I thi nk what

15 -- and he would rely on me and Denise and the re st of

16 his staff to keep him abreast as to issues, you know,

17 that were happening, as long as everything was r unning



14

18 along as fine, and he would call his chairmen in

19 periodically to get an update or -- and otherwis e,

20 that's kind of how it went.

21 So I think that what Gerardo is doing is

22 saying it was time at that point for the Speaker and the

23 Chairman Solomons to sit down and have a check-i n,

24 status check. And Gerardo was giving him kind of the

25 back talking points on that, which would have be en what

Page 83

1 we would have done for any meeting on any subject .

2 And especially in light of where we were

3 with the budget at that point in time, he was rea lly --

4 that was really the day-to-day thing that he was

5 involved in most. So if he's suggesting, like her e, he

6 suggests that we slow down the process to allow f or the

7 budget, it's because when you're running the floo r --

8 first of all, the budget debate happens all night .

9 Basically, it's a -- you know, it starts in the m orning

10 and it goes until the next morning. They -- they tend

11 to debate it all night long. So you got a lot of people

12 who are cranky and tired and their favorite thin gs that

13 they want to allocate money to are now -- has go ne away

14 because with the shortfall, we took everything o ff.

15 As someone who directed how the floor ran,

16 we wouldn't ever put that up against a contentio us issue

17 like redistricting or anything else that you can think

18 of that would be vouchers or emotive type of iss ues,



15

19 abortion. I mean, we would -- we would never set the

20 floor up like that because it's just -- I mean, that

21 would just -- it would explode. I mean, they wou ld have

22 a temper tantrum and all go away. So that's not how you

23 would do that. And so I think Gerardo, I'm sure, at

24 mine and Denise's suggestion, said, you know, wh ere we

25 are in process, you need to slow this down so th at we

Page 84

1 can get the budget bill done first. Let emotions calm

2 down from that. And then we'll let redistricting, which

3 is also another emotive issue, come up. So that's what

4 this was about, it looks like.

5 Q. What do you make of the third bullet point

6 about pairing?

7 A. Pairing? Well, let me start with this: When

8 we drew the maps, we started with protected distr icts,

9 and so those were sort of drawn first, and then w e put

10 where the pairings occurred happened after that. So I'm

11 sure, in looking at the actual numbers, there we re areas

12 where in order to make sure that the protected d istricts

13 remained protected, where a pairing had to occur . In

14 all these cases, it's all Republicans, and it's all

15 primarily in rural-ish areas. And so at some poi nt, it

16 does become a call as to how -- which way you go . And

17 that's -- that's -- so what Gerardo was doing wa s giving

18 him, in these areas where it looked like there w as going

19 to have to be a pairing, there was no protection , and



16

20 they didn't have the population numbers, somebod y was

21 going to have to make that call. And so he's sug gesting

22 that they discuss that, the different options.

92:1-93:4

1 Q. I guess what I'm getting at is would you poll

2 members on a topic before announcing or introduci ng a

3 bill on a subject?

4 A. Yes, sure. I mean, if the Speaker was saying,

5 "I'm thinking about X, Y or Z," we might poll mem bers or

6 senior members or particular regions or whatever and

7 say, "How do you feel about this subject? We're

8 thinking we're going to -- you know, the Speaker would

9 like to advance this directive or this initiative , how

10 do you feel about it?"

11 Q. Is one of the functions or purposes of pollin g

12 to limit debate or amendment on a bill?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Why do you say that?

15 A. Because that wasn't its function. Its functio n

16 was to see -- I mean, you might limit debate on stuff

17 like with a calendar rule, so there is that func tion,

18 but that's not the -- but polling isn't that fun ction.

19 There -- the idea of polling is really just to s ee if

20 you can figure out how the outcome is going to h appen.

21 Now, oftentimes, there's a bill that you do it s o you

22 can find out if there's a problem. So you can de cide,

23 fix the problem, don't fix the problem, whatever it is.



17

24 But I guess it's human nature, the Speaker's alw ays

25 wanted to know, before he got on the dais, how t hat day

Page 93

1 was going to play out. Unfortunately, I wasn't

2 clairvoyant enough to always tell him that, but t hat was

3 the answer he wanted. So I would poll to see how the

4 day was going to turn out.

94:22-96:15

22 Q. Did you poll on the redistricting bill?

23 A. We polled in a different way on redistricting ,

24 which is that we -- each member saw their distri ct map

25 drawn, and they signed off on it. So I don't rec all us

Page 95

1 polling on the map as a whole, although we might have.

2 I don't have a -- that wouldn't have been unusual if I

3 did, but I don't have a specific recollection of doing

4 that. But I do know that we -- each of the member s got

5 a copy of their map, and they had to sign it.

6 Q. What -- what does the signature mean?

7 A. That they were okay. That they had signed off

8 on their district.

9 Q. Does that mean that they had signed off on the

10 bill?

11 A. No, although, you know, redistricting is a

12 very -- unlike other legislation, it's a very pe rsonal

13 deal. And so most of the time, the thing that th ey're

14 most concerned about is their own individual dis tricts,



18

15 and so it meant that. Clearly, if -- if they wer e

16 getting paired with somebody, more times than no t, they

17 wouldn't have signed off on that, because it's n ot in

18 their self interest to do that.

19 Q. Gotcha. But a member could be altruistic and

20 decide to vote against a bill even though he or she was

21 fine with his or her own district, right?

22 A. It certainly could have, and maybe they did.

23 Q. Was there any stated quid pro quo that you're

24 aware of?

25 A. What kind of quid pro quo?

Page 96

1 Q. Signing -- signing the -- for the signature

2 on -- on a district?

3 A. No. I mean, I can't -- there wouldn't be a way

4 to do that. I mean, we would say, "You were happy with

5 your district, and signed off on your district an d

6 check." You know. I'm sure that there were times that

7 even if they were happy with their district, that maybe

8 there would be Democrats that weren't happy with the

9 overall map. So there's no way to hold them to sa y,

10 yes, you have to vote that way because you signe d off on

11 your district. Our point was that it was a

12 member-driven map and it was drawn for incumbenc y

13 protection, and that's who our -- who the consti tuents

14 were, were the members, and if they were happy, then

15 that was -- with their map, that's how –



19

115:20-116:9

20 Q. Now you said earlier that you interviewed him

21 for the job?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Why did you hire him or recommend hiring him?

24 A. Because he -- he's lawyer, and he's bright, a nd

25 he had -- knew the congressional delegation.

Page 116

1 Q. But he had no redistricting experience,

2 correct?

3 A. I don't remember if he did or if he didn't, ha d

4 he been involved in redistricting the time before in

5 any, you know, iteration. He had worked for Lamar , and

6 Lamar had -- he knew about redistricting before w e hired

7 him. Now how he knew about that or whether it was just

8 through his working for Lamar, that's possible, b ut I

9 don't -- I don't have a recollection of that.

116:16-117:8

16 Q. Would it have been mattered to you that he

17 didn't have any redistricting experience or not?

18 A. Not as long as he could draw -- you know, I

19 mean, he took the training to draw the maps, and so as

20 long as you can do that. There's not -- I think I told

21 Mr. Sells before, there's not that many people t hat are

22 just around, hanging around that know how to do this.

23 And so Mr. Sims is one, and we talked about why we

24 wouldn't have hired him. So, really, you know, G erardo



20

25 had -- understood the congressional delegation,

Page 117

1 understood the -- or at least knew the congressio nal

2 delegation from working there and understood, kne w all

3 the members and what their districts looked like, and --

4 at least as they did at that time. And so it was a

5 natural place for us to hire. And he was willing to do

6 the RedAppl training. And honestly, as you know b ecause

7 you have been around this for quite a few decades , we

8 used to draw the maps on the floor with a crayon.

117:18-118:4

18 Q. When you interviewed him for the job, you kno w,

19 in your own mind at the time, if you can recall, did it

20 matter whether or not he had drawn maps and done so in a

21 way that was geared towards compliance with the Voting

22 Rights Act?

23 A. I don't believe we had necessarily had that

24 discussion. I don't know that he previously drew maps.

25 So I don't know that -- obviously, we would have

Page 118

1 directed him to draw maps in compliance with the Voting

2 Rights Act. We wouldn't do anything against the l aw,

3 right, but I don't have a recollection of whether he had

4 previously drawn or not drawn.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations J.M. Lozano

State Defendants’


J.M. Lozano

1



4:1-2

1 JOSE MANUEL LOZANO,

2 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

8:6-7

6 Q. Great. Representative, where were you born?

7 A. Guadalajara Jalisco, Mexico.

8:12-16

12 Q. And where did you grow up?

13 A. In Premont, Texas, Jim Wells County.

14 Q. And when did you become a United States

15 citizen?

16 A. I believe I was seven years old.

9:5-6

5 Q. Where do you live now?

6 A. In Kingsville, Texas, Kleberg County.

15:18-22

18 Q. And what is your history of running for

19 office?

20 A. First time was in -- for the legislature in --

21 for the 2011 session. First time I've ever run for

22 office.

16:7-23

7 Q. And what district was that when you first ran

8 in 2010?

2



9 A. So in 2010, it was also House District 43.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But the district was different than it is

12 today. It was different counties.

13 Q. What counties?

14 A. It was Kleberg County, Kenedy County, Brooks

15 County, Jim Hogg, Willacy and part of Cameron County.

16 And I ran in that election. I defeated the incumbent in

17 the Democratic primary.

18 Q. And who was your opponent in the Democratic

19 primary?

20 A. Tara Rios-Ybarra.

21 Q. And was Ms. Rios-Ybarra an incumbent at the

22 time?

23 A. Yes. Democrat.

17:1-19

1 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned that your father

2 had not -- sorry. Let me jump back. You ran again in

3 2012 for State House District --

4 A. Re-election.

5 Q. -- 43. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that was as a Republican?

8 A. Yes.

3



9 Q. And you're running again this term. Correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Also as a Republican?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in 2012, did you have a primary opponent?

14 A. Yes. Oh, yeah.

15 Q. Who were your primary opponents?

16 A. Bill Wilson from Portland and Willie Vaden

17 from Ingleside. Both are from San Patricio County.

18 Q. Okay. And were both of those gentlemen Anglo?

19 A. Yes.

18:8-10

8 Q. Okay. That's fine. So, did you have a runoff

9 in 2012, in the primary?

10 A. Yes. With Bill Wilson.

18:25-19:14

25 Q. Did you have an opponent in the general

Page 19

1 election in 2012?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And who was that?

4 A. Yvonne Gonzalez Toureilles. And Toureilles is

5 T-O-U-R-E-I-L-L-E-S. She served -- former Democratic

6 legislator who served, I believe, eight -- six or eight

4



7 years in the legislature. She got defeated in 2010.

8 Q. Did she previously represent District 35?

9 A. Yes, she previously represented two of the

10 counties that were in the new district that I was in.

11 Q. Okay. And how close was that election, the

12 general election in 2012?

13 A. I think that was 51-and-a-half or 52 percent

14 for me.

20:17-21

17 Q. That's fine then. What committees did you

18 serve on in the legislature from 2011 to 2012?

19 A. Energy Resources, which was the most requested

20 committee by the legislators. Basically, we fill out a

21 card with our committee preferences.

22:5-24:22

5 Q. Okay. You didn't serve on redistricting,

6 correct, in 2010 --

7 A. No.

8 Q. -- or, excuse me, in 2011?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you didn't do any similar work prior --

11 after your campaign and before your service to make

12 yourself a good candidate to serve on redistricting?

13 A. No. Although, when I ran for office against

5



14 the Democrat incumbent, I used redistricting as one of

15 my platforms.

16 Q. And what was redistricting on your platform?

17 A. Basically, my opponent was from the southern

18 most part of the district, from South Padre Island. I

19 was from Kingsville, the northern most part. And

20 District 43 has had a representative from Kingsville or

21 Kleberg County, with the exception of her 14 months in

22 office at the time, as far back, maybe like 25 years.

23 And so I knew that the next session was going to be a

24 redistricting session and I knew that there was a lot of

25 growth in the South Texas border, so I knew that there

Page 23

1 might be a new district created and it would push my

2 district north, because they would take my south out.

3 And if the reps from the south -- I felt and my argument

4 was that she wouldn't be there to protect my

5 constituents' interest where I'm from. Kleberg County,

6 Jim Wells, Brooks, those are all the areas that I grew

7 up in as a little boy -- well, up to now. And so I

8 wanted to be there to fight for the region.

9 Q. And in the context of redistricting, what was

10 fighting for the region?

11 A. So, basically, if you're from South Padre

6



12 Island, you don't care about oil and gas, farming and

13 ag. You care about beach erosion. And so if you're

14 from South Padre Island, you don't care about rural

15 South Texas, like someone that grew up in south rural

16 South Texas. And that's where I'm from.

17 Q. Okay. So it wasn't a matter of different

18 preferences for redistricting for a representative from

19 South Padre Island versus a representative from

20 Kingsville, it was just a matter that there were

21 different overall issues that would concern different

22 parts of the existing district; is that correct?

23 A. That. But in addition to the geography, where

24 you're from South Padre Island and they tell you,

25 there's enough growth here, we can create your own

Page 24

1 district and take out the whole northern part, you could

2 just worry about the southern part now. And what's

3 going to happen to the rest? Well, they wouldn't care.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. So they would potentially pair us with a

6 Corpus Christi, which were a lot of the proposals made

7 during this legislative session, this last one. And

8 that would eliminate the possibility of there ever being

9 a representative from Kleberg County again, which had

7



10 been the case for like 25, 30 years. Irma Rangel was

11 our state -- was our State rep for decades. She served

12 as chair of higher education. She brought the

13 university where I live, A&M Kingsville, millions of

14 dollars in state funds, and a pharmacy school which is

15 named after her now.

16 And that's obviously the way it works.

17 If you're a legislator, you help your communities. And

18 so I worried that they would pair us with Nueces County,

19 a big population center, which was a proposal by several

20 maps, MALC, you name them. And my constituents where I

21 grew up would never have the ability to elect their own

22 representative again.

26:25-27:5

25 Q. Okay. What committees did you serve on in the

Page 27

1 83rd legislature?

2 A. Energy Resources again and vice chair of

3 International Trade.

4 Q. Again, not redistricting?

5 A. Not redistricting. And I never asked for it.

43:2-8

2 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) So, do you believe that the

3 2011 House map diluted the voices of the people in

8



4 Hidalgo County?

5 MR. FREDERICK: Object, to the extent it

6 calls for a legal conclusion, but you can answer.

7 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) As you used the term.

8 A. Yeah. No, I don't.

43:14-44:4

14 Q. I can give you a copy of the committee

15 proposal, not the final map. So I can't represent to

16 you that there weren't any alterations on the floor, but

17 I will represent to you that it is my understanding that

18 this is almost the exact map, but may not be 100 percent

19 the exact map. But if it helps refresh your

20 recollection, I'm happy just to have you look at it.

21 MR. FREDERICK: And just for the record,

22 this is Plan H153.

23 A. This actually looks like the one that was

24 adopted for the purposes of Hidalgo.

25 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) And so, why -- based on that

Page 44

1 map, why do you not believe that the 2011 House map

2 diluted the voices of people in Hidalgo County?

3 A. I think they still had the same number of

4 State representatives.

44:12-20

9



12 Q. Did you have any concerns about what the

13 shapes of the districts might look like within Hidalgo

14 County?

15 A. No. I mean, basically, just from college, you

16 know, the history of redistricting that I took, members

17 try and protect their district, whether -- in this case

18 everyone is a Democrat for the most part in Hidalgo, and

19 so those Democrats are just trying to protect their

20 incumbency.

54:8-14

8 Q. And what district was that that you had a

9 problem with in 2011?

10 A. I think it was Hubert Vo's -- Representative

11 Hubert Vo's House seat. I believe there was an

12 apartment complex in his House district cut in half.

13 And he was neighboring with another Democrat, so I felt

14 like there was an injustice there on those residents.

57:15-58:18

15 Q. Can I ask, how do the interests of Kleberg

16 County and Nueces County differ?

17 A. The interests between Nueces and Kleberg?

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. Oh, gosh, there's competing interests.

20 Q. How do their interests compete?

10



21 A. Okay. So you have a naval air station in

22 Corpus, you have one in Kleberg -- one in Nueces, one in

23 Kleberg County. You have an A&M University system

24 school in Nueces and one in Kleberg. You obviously have

25 both, in terms of job creation, competing for companies,

Page 58

1 because they're both regionally situated along the same

2 rail lines, along the same highway systems. So Kleberg

3 can offer cheaper land for prospective companies to set

4 up shop than Nueces, but Nueces does all they can to

5 recruit those companies, so we compete that way,

6 economically.

7 You know, in South Texas you have a

8 problem where -- in the whole country, you have a

9 problem where rural America is dying. That's where I

10 grew up. Where towns in the '50s and '60s were booming

11 because of oil and gas, and they've withered away like

12 on a vine because of neglect from Washington and because

13 of urbanization. And so when you consider pairing it

14 with one of those urban areas, the urban area would get

15 more from the representation than the rural area. And

16 so my job is to help my communities where I grew up.

17 And that's a way of doing that is making sure that

18 they're not paired.

11



61:21-62:18

21 Q. Did you ever meet with any of the staff for

22 the House Redistricting Committee?

23 MR. FREDERICK: Object as vague.

24 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) During the 2011 House

25 redistricting process, did you ever meet with any staff

Page 62

1 members from the House Redistricting Committee?

2 MR. FREDERICK: Same objection.

3 A. I might have gone in and talked with the

4 Speaker's office. I did that a lot during session to

5 help with legislation or whatever. But -- when I felt

6 that there were people trying to pair us with Nueces,

7 I'm sure I went in and told the Speaker's office.

8 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) And did you ever meet with

9 an individual named Gerardo Interiano in the Speaker's

10 office?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how many times did you meet with

13 Mr. Interiano?

14 A. I don't -- I remember speaking with him on the

15 House floor multiple times, like, "Hey, they're trying

16 to do this to my district," or "This is happening in The

17 Valley." I don't remember -- in an office, I honestly

12



18 don't remember.

64:3-24

3 Q. Do you know if you requested any redistricting

4 data from the Texas Legislative Council?

5 A. Absolutely. I mean, it was obviously done

6 through my office, which would have been at the time,

7 Josh Reyna. Josh Reyna, I believe he's now with Senator

8 Hinojosa's office. And it would just be figures,

9 percentages, you know -- yeah, on populations of

10 counties in my area.

11 Q. And do you know what type of data you

12 requested?

13 A. Just -- I'm sure just population. I mean,

14 what -- how many people are there, could we keep the

15 district as is. You know, could we create another House

16 district, just that kind of --

17 Q. Did you ever look at any data related to

18 ethnicity, subgroups within those populations?

19 A. I think when you request like census figures,

20 all that comes in there already.

21 Q. Okay. Did you ever request any data related

22 to Spanish surname voter registration?

23 A. Just -- no. I mean, unless it's in the census

24 data, I didn't specifically request that.

13



67:3-69:19

3 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet with other

4 representatives from the Rio Grande Valley, as a group,

5 to discuss redistricting?

6 A. We may have met as a group with Rene Oliveira,

7 who is the dean of The Valley delegation. Rene

8 Oliveira. Representative Oliveira is O-L -- whew --

9 who was also my desk mate in that session. And, you

10 know, on and off, we'd go -- we'd talk to each other on

11 the floor of the House.

12 Q. I'd like to discuss the meeting with

13 Representative Oliveira.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Do you recall -- first, do you recall who was

16 present at that meeting?

17 A. It would have been -- I would assume almost

18 all, if not all, of the South Texas representatives.

19 Q. And do you remember whether that group met

20 once, more than once?

21 A. I don't. I don't know.

22 Q. Do you know if any legislative staff were

23 present at that meeting?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Do you remember if anyone brought outside

14



Page 68

1 consultants?

2 A. No, I don't -- I don't remember. Usually,

3 like, when we do that and there's staff, it's hard to

4 see who's there, because they're like in the back of the

5 room, and the reps are at the table talking.

6 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of that

7 meeting?

8 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; form.

9 A. Well, it was just -- whether it was talking

10 about Congressional or -- or House seats -- State House

11 seats, what maps are going to be proposed and -- I mean,

12 it was just all about protecting the interests of -- of

13 the region that we each represented.

14 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) And did you work together

15 with the other representatives from Cameron County to --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- figure out what the divisions would be

18 within that county?

19 A. The one that I shared -- the county I shared

20 with other Valley reps was Cameron County. The

21 boundaries were with Representative Eddie Lucio and

22 Representative Rene Oliveira. And so I basically stayed

23 out of their area. Basically, I just told them,

15



24 whatever areas you guys give me in a map, y'all put out

25 as a proposal, you guys divide Cameron County however

Page 69

1 you see fit, because I'm not from there. And like I

2 said a while back in this depo, people were just trying

3 to draw districts for them to get re-elected, and that's

4 what they were trying to do.

5 Q. And did this group decide whether you would

6 get the remainder of Cameron County --

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. -- or whether it would be attached to any

9 district?

10 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; vague.

11 A. Well, of course, I didn't even get to pick

12 which precinct I wanted in Cameron. I mean, like when

13 Rene Oliveira told me, my desk mate, "Hey, I'm going to

14 get South Padre Island, because the bridge from Port

15 Isabel, which I represent, connects to South Padre

16 Island. The only way to get there is through the

17 bridge, so I'm going to get South Padre," he's the dean.

18 You know, I wasn't going to sit there and dispute that

19 with him.

70:3-71:24

3 Q. Okay. And so the process, with regard to

16



4 Cameron, was -- tell me if I'm wrong -- it was that

5 essentially the two representatives whose districts were

6 wholly within Cameron County figured out what part they

7 wanted and you got the remainder?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Was there any discussion in the whole

10 Valley group of what the process would be for Hidalgo

11 County?

12 MR. FREDERICK: Object as vague, but you

13 can answer.

14 A. The Hidalgo delegation had their own issues

15 that I wasn't part of that.

16 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) You were never present for

17 any meetings that discussed what the process would be

18 for Hidalgo County?

19 A. No. I did see tempers.

20 Q. When did you see tempers?

21 A. On the floor of the House.

22 Q. Between whom?

23 A. It would be Mando Martinez, Armando Martinez

24 from Weslaco. I'm trying to remember if there was a

25 House member there, or if it was just him speaking with

Page 71

1 one of the Speaker's staff members on the floor of the

17



2 House, outside the rail. And that's the one time I've

3 ever seen him very upset, and it dealt with his district

4 lines.

5 Q. And do you know why he was very upset?

6 A. He didn't want the Delta area in his district,

7 because -- I don't know why he didn't want the Delta

8 area, to be honest. That's where my father-in-law is,

9 that's a great area to represent. But he didn't want

10 the Delta area, which is Elsa, Elsa, Texas. Gosh, I'm

11 trying to remember all the little cities there. He

12 basically wanted his district to stay the same. And I

13 think he felt like he wasn't -- things weren't going his

14 way and he was upset.

15 Q. And who had previously represented the Delta

16 area?

17 A. I think that was Aaron. I think it was

18 Representative Pena.

19 Q. Okay. Did you observe anything else in -- any

20 other disputes regarding the Hidalgo County delegation?

21 A. No. I mean, other than whatever happened on

22 the House floor, that's -- that's all I saw, nothing

23 in -- I wasn't in the meetings, if they had any. I

24 don't know.

72:11-15

18



11 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) Do you know what preferences

12 Representative Pena expressed in the redistricting

13 process?

14 A. Just drawing a district that he could be

15 re-elected in.

72:25-74:10

25 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) Do you know what preferences

Page 73

1 Representative Guillen expressed during the


3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. So other than attending the meetings with

5 Representative Oliveira --

6 A. Actually, yes, I do remember. He didn't want

7 to go into Laredo or Webb County.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Other than that...

10 Q. And how did you find that out?

11 A. On the floor, just conversation, "How does

12 your district look?" "How does yours look?"

13 Q. Other than the meetings -- meeting that we

14 discussed with The Valley delegation, and other than

15 discussions with the Speaker's staff, and other than

16 discussions on the House floor, and other than voting on

19



17 the House floor, what other actions, if any, did you

18 take related to the 2011 House redistricting process?

19 A. Initially, there were some meetings with -- as

20 I was a member of MALC, Mexican American Legislative

21 Caucus, we had meetings where they would bring in MALC's

22 attorney and he'd brief us on districts and things like

23 that. And then there were a few times that I called him

24 into my office, because of the fact that they were just

25 diluting the voice of my area in some other versions of

Page 74

1 the maps, and being done without even giving the MALC

2 members notice. And then to a point where I felt they

3 just completely cut me out. They didn't let me know of

4 meetings.

5 Q. And was that Jose Garza?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And what maps -- well, first, what maps raised

8 concerns for you? Do you recall which --

9 A. There were several pairing us with -- the

10 whole region I grew up in with Nueces County.

74:14-75:11

14 Q. And so your concerns were only with the MALC

15 maps that did pair you with Nueces County?

16 A. Yeah. And they were just sprung on us, they

20



17 didn't even let us know. And we're MALC members.

18 Q. And what meetings did you become aware of that

19 you had not been invited to attend?

20 A. I couldn't remember specifically, but I do

21 know that after the -- after the session, there was a --

22 I'm assuming it was H283. Was that the first Court --

23 oh, no, the first interim House plan. When that came

24 out, I contacted MALC, because, you know, as a

25 legislator -- as a member of MALC, you know, I looked to

Page 75

1 them, because they had an attorney fighting for us. And

2 that first interim House plan, I believe, paired Kleberg

3 with Nueces, if I'm not mistaken. And so I think I

4 might have called Jose Garza and Marty -- I forgot his

5 last name.

6 Q. Golando?

7 A. Golando, yeah. -- after that. And I don't

8 remember if -- if I ever talked to Jose Garza. I do

9 know I talked to Marty, just, "Hey, what do I do? You

10 know, who's going to fight for us, for the people of

11 Kleberg County?"

76:10-77:9

10 Q. Did you ever think that any map proposed by

11 MALC had a realistic chance of passing in the Texas

21



12 House in 2011?

13 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; vague. You

14 may answer.

15 A. Just in terms of the legislature, if you're

16 a -- in the 2011 session, there were 100 or so

17 Republicans, the rest Democrats, out of 150. If it's a

18 Democrat bill, it's got a very little chance of passing.

19 And so seeing all the bills going down like that,

20 anything proposed by a Democrat, I believe, just in

21 terms of R and D makeup wasn't going to get enough

22 votes.

23 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) And did you consider MALC

24 proposed redistricting plans to be Democratic bills?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 77

1 Q. And so, why were you concerned about where

2 MALC proposals placed your district if you didn't think

3 they were going to pass?

4 A. Because the -- it was more so the -- the

5 district ARD [sic] for the member -- MALC member's

6 input. I mean, you blind side a MALC member with a map

7 that just dilutes his region's ability to elect a

8 representative without even telling him. That's why I

9 would -- that's the problem I had.

22



79:12-80:5

12 Q. So, why did you describe that district overall

13 as your dream district?

14 A. Well, like I said earlier, Kleberg, Jim Wells

15 and Brooks is pretty much the area that I grew up in,

16 that -- the people there that I know are -- from as far

17 as back as I was, you know, five years old. I was

18 meeting them in their homes with my father. And so if I

19 could ensure that that region was not paired with Nueces

20 County, and there was a map that did that, that would be

21 a dream district to me.

22 Q. Do you still consider that set of counties to

23 be your dream district?

24 A. Well, now, I consider -- I mean, that was '11.

25 And now I've got a district I ran and won in, and it

Page 80

1 does maintain that integrity as well. And it actually

2 is even better because you have a new House seat in

3 Cameron County and you kept Jim Wells and Kleberg from

4 being paired with Nueces County. So that's even more of

5 a dream district.

88:16-89:11

16 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet with Gordon Johnson

17 during the redistricting process?

23



18 A. During the session, absolutely.

19 Q. Who is Gordon Johnson?

20 A. I don't know his exact title, if he has one.

21 I know that he has a -- he works with Johnson & Johnson,

22 consultants, lobbyists. But I think Gordon might have

23 stopped working in that capacity to work specifically

24 for the Speaker. I don't -- I just don't remember.

25 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with him

Page 89

1 regarding redistricting?

2 A. Yes, absolutely.

3 Q. And what did you discuss?

4 A. It just depends when. Like early on in the

5 process, it was just trying to make sure that our region

6 was not paired with Nueces County, creating a new House

7 seat in Cameron County. And if there were ever any

8 moves by anyone to do other than that, I would tell him.

9 You know, he is very close with the Speaker. And the

10 Speaker, that first session, was there for me on many

11 occasions when people tried to hurt my region.

90:4

4 (Exhibit No. 8 marked.)

90:23-91:4

23 Q. What is this document?

24



24 A. This is an e-mail from Gordon to Denise, to

25 Gerardo, and then from Gerardo to Denise.

Page 91

1 Q. And is -- the Joe e-mail address, is that the

2 Speaker?

3 A. Oh, in the -- oh, I don't know. I've never

4 seen that e-mail before.

91:13-92:12

13 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) That was meant to be a joke.

14 Representative, what is this document?

15 A. So it's -- the first e-mail on this chain here

16 is -- on this chain is from Gordon to Joe. And that's

17 Denise Davis' e-mail, telling them about a concern I had

18 with a MALC map.

19 Q. Okay. And TMF, is that Trey Martinez Fischer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And Anchia is Representative Rafael Anchia; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is he also an officer of MALC?

25 A. I'm not sure.

Page 92

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I just don't remember if Gordon got that name

25



3 wrong. I don't remember if Anchia ever threatened me.

4 I don't know why I'm thinking in my mind that when I

5 went to tell Gordon about this that it was Mando

6 Martinez, but Mando didn't threaten me, Mando just told

7 me, "Don't trust the Republicans," you know, that he's

8 been loyal and he got nothing. I just don't think that

9 was Anchia.

10 Q. So that was likely meant to be Armando

11 Martinez?

12 A. I think so.

92:24-93:19

24 Q. If you look at the bottom e-mail, it says, "JM

25 is getting threatened by TMF and Anchia." Do you see

Page 93

1 that?

2 A. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah.

3 Q. Why would Mr. Johnson have thought that you

4 conveyed that you were being threatened?

5 A. I think during the session -- and that -- when

6 it says TMF showed him the map -- showed JM the MALC

7 map, that was most likely when we were about to vote,

8 and the map pops up. And so I obviously wasn't going to

9 get any help from MALC on protecting Kleberg, Brooks,

10 Jim Wells from being grouped with Nueces. I really felt

26



11 like they were bent on doing that. And I'm sure I told

12 Trey Fisher that I'm just going to go to the Speaker for

13 help. And just the way Mr. Fischer is, he probably told

14 me something along the lines of, you shouldn't trust the

15 Republicans. If you ask them for help, we definitely

16 won't be there for you, that kind of stuff.

17 And I didn't want to risk, obviously,

18 missing the opportunity to get help from someone, and so

19 I went to the Speaker's office.

93:23-94:9

23 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) If you look at this

24 document --

25 A. Uh-huh.

Page 94

1 Q. -- do you see that it says, "Can't tell Burt

2 because it gets Lozano in trouble"? And is Burt

3 Chairman Solomons?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And so --

6 A. Oh, so if they told -- if Burt told Trey that

7 I'm getting help from the Speaker's office, then Trey

8 would even, obviously, know that I'm disregarding his

9 advice not to trust Republicans.

95:4-24

27



4 Q. During the 2011 redistricting process, what

5 was your role in the Congressional redistricting

6 process?

7 A. I didn't have a role in that.

8 Q. Did you take any actions in an attempt to

9 influence what the plan eventually looked like?

10 A. I don't know if I did or not. I don't

11 remember if I did an amendment or not.

12 Q. Did you feel that the process gave you an

13 opportunity to contribute to shaping the plan?

14 A. Some parts, yes, some parts, no, of the

15 process.

16 Q. What parts no?

17 A. The MALC process.

18 Q. What about the -- what about the process of

19 shaping the actual eventual plan?

20 A. The one that was put forth by the

21 redistricting committee?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I thought I had obviously more input there

24 because of the willingness of the Speaker to help.

98:13-104:21

13 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) Under the benchmark

14 Congressional plan, there was a district that included

28



15 both City of Corpus Christi and the City of Brownsville,

16 correct, under the old map?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in the 2011 Congressional plan, the new

19 Congressional District 34 includes Brownsville, but not

20 Corpus Christi. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Are you aware of -- never mind. Let's

23 turn to the votes that you cast on the floor regarding

24 redistricting plans.

25 A. I think -- real quick, I remember also that

Page 99

1 the -- the map that Plan C185 changed, the map that was

2 changed was represented by Congressman Farenthold, where

3 he won. But he's from Corpus and that map had him going

4 all the way down to Brownsville. He won that race in

5 the general election. And then during our session, this

6 Congressional plan changed his district where -- yeah,

7 Congressional. So I think he's -- right now, he's

8 District 27. And I think 27 used to go down from Corpus

9 to Brownsville, and where he won in the general

10 election. And now it's represented by Congressman Phil

11 Vella from Brownsville, who's a good congressman,

12 actually. And he -- his wife is our former Republican

29



13 court of appeals judge, who I think retired.

14 Just a little dynamic to show you that

15 even within one family in Brownsville, you have a

16 Republican and a Democrat married to each other. That's

17 just how we are. Just a unique little tidbit.

18 Q. Congressman Farenthold's district, that now

19 goes north from Corpus Christi. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that's a much more predominantly Anglo

22 district than a district that would go from Brownsville

23 to Nueces, along the coast?

24 A. Yeah, I would say so. Even though he won in

25 both. And he got a pretty large amount of Republican

Page 100

1 votes in Cameron -- I'm sorry. He got a large amount of

2 votes in Cameron in the general. And if you don't know,

3 Cameron County has the Republican county judge, Carlos

4 Cascos, so it's just another fact of where we're at in

5 South Texas, where a -- gosh, I don't know, maybe an

6 80 percent Democrat county elects a Republican county

7 judge. He actually defeated the current chairman of the

8 Texas Democratic party for that race, which shows even

9 more so how our South Texas region is when it comes to

10 voting. They vote for the person.

30



11 Q. Moving to the -- to the votes that you cast on

12 redistricting. How did you vote on the 2011 House plan,

13 the final vote?

14 A. I don't remember exactly. I know the first

15 reading, I voted for it. And then -- I just don't

16 remember the sequence. After one of those -- or the

17 only I vote for it, I submitted to the record a

18 statement explaining that I intended to vote

19 differently.

20 Q. So you intended to vote against it?

21 A. After I voted, I changed my vote. And the

22 only way to do that is through this -- under House rules

23 is in this fashion.

24 Q. And on the other two readings, did you vote

25 against it?

Page 101

1 A. I believe so.

2 Q. And why did you vote against it?

3 A. The second and third time -- I wasn't going to

4 say this, because it goes into, like, personal

5 differences and it describes an ugly side of the

6 legislative process, but I was threatened by another

7 legislator that if I didn't change my vote that they

8 would run robo calls against me and that I would have an

31



9 opponent.

10 And -- so if you look at the video

11 footage of that day, you'll see that after my vote, I'm

12 conversing with that member, that I get on my laptop and

13 I start typing a statement, and I go to the printer and

14 retrieve it. And my desk mate and I go to that member

15 and show him the statement and -- but unfortunately,

16 that's an ugly side to the legislative process that not

17 a lot of people know. I don't know if the DOJ knows

18 about it either, but you know now that a duly elected

19 representative freshman could be threatened by a senior

20 member if he doesn't vote a certain way to undo what the

21 voters did.

22 Q. And your desk mate, that was Rene Oliveira?

23 A. The one that was trying to help me, yes.

24 Q. And I'm not asking who the other member was --

25 A. I'll tell you. It was Trey Martinez Fischer,

Page 102

1 the chairman of MALC. And he was very aggressive,

2 threatened to kick my ass. He's done it before. He's

3 been physical with members on the floor, pushing

4 chairman of higher education, Dan Branch, on the floor

5 of the House, pushing him violently into his chair.

6 It's conduct unbecoming of a legislator, obviously, but

32



7 I think it goes to show the character of someone when

8 they're willing to disrespect our State Capitol that

9 way.

10 Q. And the statement that you printed out, was

11 that a statement changing your vote?

12 A. Can I see it, if you have it?

13 Q. Oh, I don't. Is it simply the statement for

14 the House Journal?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I can remember part of

18 it. I mean, basically, what I was saying in that

19 statement, if I remember correctly, was although I liked

20 my district and my constituents would want me to vote

21 for that map because the district is what the

22 constituents want that I represent, there are other

23 areas of the map that I believe are unconstitutional,

24 violate laws, but that I voted for it because of the

25 fact that it's what my constituents wanted.

Page 103

1 Q. And is that still your belief today?

2 A. That map? Absolutely. In 2011, at that

3 moment in time, every time I would go to the district

4 and people would stop me in the store, "Make sure we're

33



5 not paired with Nueces County." And that map didn't do

6 that, and they wanted me to vote for it.

7 Q. And is it still your belief today that the

8 2011 House map violated the law, as you state in that

9 statement?

10 A. In other parts, Hochberg's seat and Vo, the

11 House map, I do believe that splitting an apartment

12 complex or pairing two Democrats in Houston, reducing

13 from that region two to one, is obviously less

14 representation for those people. So as a whole, if one

15 area is problematic, you know, you have to say that the

16 whole map is not -- is unconstitutional.

17 But if you look at the statement I put in

18 the Journal, it was saying exactly what I just told you.

19 I voted for it because that's what my constituents

20 wanted. I campaigned on it. I'm telling you an aside.

21 I told you earlier I campaigned on getting to the

22 legislature to fight for my constituents in

23 redistricting. I was sent there, I believe, with a

24 mandate by my constituents to do that.

25 And the only reason I changed it was

Page 104

1 because I was verbally and physically threatened by the

2 chairman of MALC that if I didn't change my vote, he

34



3 would run robo calls against me, that I would have an

4 opponent that would be funded, well funded. And if you

5 look at the way campaign finance runs in Texas,

6 Democrats are funded by the trial lawyers. And that's

7 how I was funded that primary, in addition to my father

8 and personal funds. The Texas Trial Lawyer's

9 Association paid for some mailers. And so when you have

10 the chairman of MALC threatening you as a freshman

11 lawmaker, you immediately assume that you will be up

12 against an opponent that will be very well funded, that

13 you will have to go and -- gosh, I don't know. I mean,

14 I can't imagine running as a Democrat in a Democrat

15 primary against another Democrat that's funded by the

16 largest source of money in that party. It's almost

17 impossible. And I believed that that would undo what my

18 voters did. And, in my opinion, if changing my vote on

19 the record would preserve the will of my constituents,

20 then I believed that that was the best decision at the

21 time.

109:15-110:6

15 Q. And you voted against the motions to table

16 with regard to each of Representative Martinez Fischer's

17 amendments. Correct?

18 A. Yes. And I would like to see this map,

35



19 because I'm wondering if this was another instance where

20 I liked the map because of what it did to my

21 constituents and I was threatened again and -- I just

22 don't remember, you know.

23 Q. Which map, specifically?

24 A. It was 198.

25 Q. Let's go off the record for just one minute.

Page 110

1 (Off the record.)

2 Q. I have managed to pull down a copy of H198 to

3 see if that can refresh your recollection.

4 A. Okay. I have a feeling that this was one of

5 those situations like earlier where I was threatened

6 because this goes into Nueces.

141:11-144:4

11 Q. Okay. And do you have any specific knowledge

12 regarding Congressional District 23 in the 2011

13 Congressional plan and --

14 A. Whose seat is that, or where is that?

15 Q. I believe it's Congressman Gallego now. It

16 was Congressman Canseco.

17 A. Oh, okay. The one that goes west?

18 Q. Big West Texas.

19 A. Yeah. Do I have any what?

36



20 Q. Do you have any specific knowledge regarding

21 the process or the ability of Hispanic voters to -- or

22 the opportunity of Hispanic voters to elect a preferred

23 candidate in that district?

24 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; vague, calls

25 for a legal conclusion, but you can answer.

Page 142

1 A. Yeah. Pete Gallego was in that legislative

2 session with us, so was Representative Castro, so was

3 Mark Veasey. I'm sure they were looking to move up.

4 And so -- and so, you know, there were rumors that they

5 were just drawing up themselves a Congressional seat to

6 run in, and that 23 is part -- one of those. But other

7 than that...

8 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) Did Representative Gallego

9 have control over the Congressional redistricting

10 process, such that he could have drawn that district?

11 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; calls for

12 speculation.

13 Q. (By Mr. Freeman) To the extent of your

14 knowledge.

15 A. Well, he's obviously a member who could lobby

16 his old friends to draw him a seat. I mean, it's

17 obviously possible.

37



18 Q. But you don't have any knowledge about the

19 process specifically with regard to how Congressional

20 District 23 was drawn; is that correct?

21 A. Well, I think it's pretty obvious that they

22 drew their own Congressional seats. And hindsight,

23 looking at the behavior in that session, it's pretty

24 clear that they did that, in my opinion. And so the

25 role of someone like that, who wants to draw themselves

Page 143

1 a Congressional seat, is to speak to those members who

2 are in the majority to try and get that done for them.

3 They had that seniority to do that. You know, no

4 freshman would ever have that, you know.

5 Q. Do you have any factual basis, any specific

6 knowledge that Representative Gallego was able to get a

7 favorable district drawn for him and that the 2011

8 Congressional plan reflects a favorable district for

9 representative, now Congressman Gallego in Congressional

10 District 23?

11 A. There's a -- based on the pattern I saw with

12 him in the session, I would -- I personally make that

13 assumption, the pattern I saw on a couple of things I

14 can tell you about if you want.

15 Q. That's fine.

38



16 A. Yeah. It's probably better.

17 Q. So at this point, are there any answers that

18 you wish to change that you gave previously?

19 A. Let me add to one. We were in a Democratic

20 caucus meeting one time in 2011, and the proceedings of

21 the meeting were pretty heated. I don't remember the

22 exact subject. I don't remember the exact subject. But

23 Representative Gallego was sitting to my left and he was

24 texting a Republican exactly what was happening in the

25 caucus meeting. And the Republican confirmed that to me

Page 144

1 the next day on the floor. And so, when you do that

2 kind of stuff, that kind of pattern of behavior, it's

3 logical to assume that he's going to work with the

4 Republicans to draw himself a Congressional seat.

144:22-145:21

22 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like

23 to add so that we can understand your answers more

24 clearly?

25 A. I would like you to -- you or the DOJ to look

Page 145

1 at the amount of first time Republican voters in my

2 Republican primary and runoff, especially with Hispanic

3 surnames, because I think you'll see a pattern that

39



4 clearly shows that where I'm from, people vote for the

5 person, not for the party when the candidate makes a

6 very large effort, through personal contact, to -- to

7 let them know about you. And I'll ask you to just look

8 at the significance of my mayor, lifetime Democrat, very

9 good friend, who took a lot of heat from my general

10 election opponent, the Democrat, for voting in my

11 Republican primary. I really want the DOJ to understand

12 exactly where -- where I'm from, what we believe, and

13 not jump to conclusions about a specific region because

14 it's very different than other parts of the country.

15 And we have been neglected for a very

16 long time through federal programs, same thing with the

17 State. Everything in South Texas has been overlooked

18 for a very long time. And I just want y'all to have

19 more understanding of where we're from so that perhaps

20 in the future, South Texas will get more support from

21 both state and federal government.

40


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations DONALD MARGO

State Defendants’


Donald Margo

1



5:13-16

12 Could you please state your full name for

13 the record?

14 A. Donald R. Margo, II.

15 Q. And do you go by Dee Margo?

16 A. Dee is my nickname.

7:8-15

8 Q. Okay. Tell me what you do now.

9 A. I'm semiretired. I'm in investments. My

10 business sold on September the 2nd, 2012.

11 Q. Well, congratulations.

12 Do you hold any public office?

13 A. No. I'm a member of the Board of Managers for

14 the El Paso Independent School District. I am president

15 of that.

8:9-19

9 Q. (BY MS. PERALES) Tell me what you do in your

10 position with the El Paso School District.

11 A. El Paso Independent School District.

12 Q. Yes. Please tell me what you do in that

13 position.

14 A. I function as the president of the Board of

15 Managers which is analogous to being an elected trustee,

16 the same rights and privileges.

2



17 I was appointed by the Commissioner of

18 Education, sworn in on May 7th, 2013. My term only

19 lasts two years.

9:8-11

8 Q. Mazel Tov.

9 And you are not a State Representative

10 anymore; is that correct?

11 A. No, I'm not.

10:21-12:4

21 Q. So when Mr. Pickett showed you that first map,

22 do you know who drew the map that Mr. Pickett showed

23 you?

24 A. No, I do not.

25 Q. And prior to him showing you that first map in

Page 11

1 the 2011 session, had you had any conversations with him

2 about what you were interested in for your district?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with

5 Mr. Pickett either inside the redistricting context or

6 outside regarding what you would like your district to

7 look like when you ran again in 2012?

8 A. I don't recall any specifics. No, I don't

9 recall any specifics.

3



10 That was not driving the delegation. My

11 district was not a driver in the delegation.

12 Q. I understand. And you testified before about

13 some districts that were underpopulated and needed to

14 take on population, so I'm familiar with that.

15 I'm just wondering in general whether you

16 communicated to Mr. Pickett thoughts or ideas that you

17 had about your district especially in light of the fact

18 that you would have to run again in 2012.

19 A. No, I do not recall any specifics.

20 My intent was that it would not be

21 materially changed, and I was fine to go along with what

22 the rest of the delegation wanted.

23 Q. Do you remember during this time Chairman

24 Solomons sending any memos or communication out to the

25 House members talking about the redistricting process

Page 12

1 that would be undertaken?

2 A. My recollection is that there were a series of

3 memos on the process that went out, but I can't recall

4 the specifics.

12:10-14

10 Q. Going back to when you first saw the map by

11 Mr. Pickett of the El Paso Delegation districts.

4



12 Did you ask for any changes to your

13 district as you could see it on the map at that time?

14 A. Not that I recall.

13:2-14:16

2 Q. -- or -- well, let me ask the question a

3 different way.

4 The very first time that Mr. Pickett

5 showed you a map for redistricting, was it just your

6 district alone or was it a countywide map?

7 A. My recollection it was the entire county.

8 Q. Okay. And at that time, the very first time

9 you saw that map from Mr. Pickett, did he ask you to

10 sign it?

11 A. I honestly don't recall.

12 Q. There did come a time, though, when you did

13 sign a map; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was that a map of the whole county or was

16 it just a map of your district?

17 A. You know, I'm not sure. I think it was the

18 whole county. I thought we all had to initial it. I

19 think that was the one. I can't really recall

20 specifically.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you also testified in your earlier

5



22 deposition that you and your staff looked at the

23 political numbers on your district as it was being

24 proposed to you by Mr. Pickett. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14

1 Q. And so would it be fair to say that after

2 Mr. Pickett showed you a map for the first time, that

3 you went to your office and worked with your staff to

4 look up information about your district in that map on

5 RedAppl?

6 A. I don't specifically recall, but I know my

7 staff did go on RedAppl.

8 I didn't even know how to work the system.

9 They went on. They observed.

10 And they knew my overarching goal was

11 to -- I felt like we were low man on the totem pole. It

12 wasn't material.

13 My district is bordered by the -- you

14 know, by state lines. And as I recall we had about 1800

15 more in population that we had to give up, and I said

16 fine.

15:8-16:2

8 Q. And when your staff was looking at the

9 district and its political numbers, do you know what

6



10 numbers they were looking at to evaluate the map?

11 A. Not really. I mean, the only thing we'd ever

12 look at would be the -- if we were asked to give up

13 something were the precinct voting records, you know,

14 democrat, republican.

15 Q. Overall when you were looking -- or you or

16 your staff were looking at that first proposed Pickett

17 map for your district and you mentioned you looked at

18 political numbers, is it fair to say that you looked at

19 the overall performance numbers of the proposed district

20 for you?

21 MR. SWEETEN: Objection; vague as to

22 performance numbers.

23 A. I mean, I don't know what we're talking about.

24 You mean republican or democratic mix?

25 Q. (BY MS. PERALES) Yes.

Page 16

1 A. Yeah, we looked at the republican/democratic

2 mix.

16:12-24

12 Q. And so when you looked at the political

13 performance numbers for your district, do you know what

14 numbers exactly you or your staff were looking at,

15 whether it was, for example, performance of a particular

7



16 candidate like Abbott or McCain or whether it was more

17 of an index?

18 A. Well, we would look at different races over

19 the prior years. 78 has never historically -- it's not

20 predominantly republican. There are no republican --

21 predominantly republican districts in El Paso. It's

22 just the opposite. It's very blue.

23 So, you know, as I recall it was less than

24 50 percent, but, you know, I roll the dice.

18:20-19:7

20 Q. You mentioned earlier that when you first saw

21 the map that Mr. Pickett showed you in the 2011

22 redistricting session that you thought the changes

23 weren't that substantial.

24 But taking a look at the old map here and

25 shading and the new map in red, it does make some pretty

Page 19

1 substantial changes to your district, doesn't it?

2 A. You would have to define "substantial."

3 I'm looking at -- whenever I would look at

4 it, it would be voting records in the precincts,

5 republican and democratic.

6 So my recollection is, no, it wouldn't

7 from the standpoint of that substantial.

8



20:3-22:21

3 Q. After Mr. Pickett showed you that very first

4 redistricting map -- and you've told me today kind of

5 what your perspective was and how you communicated that

6 to him -- did you have any conversation with him at all

7 about wanting to keep your political numbers in a place

8 that would give you a fair chance to be reelected?

9 A. I don't recall a specific conversation on

10 that, but I think that was the overall intent to keep

11 the balance, you know.

12 It wasn't going to be predominantly -- to

13 go back to your phrase about the ORVS -- there was never

14 going to be an ORVS that was over 50 percent, never has

15 been.

16 So it was kind of moot or to -- I just

17 wanted to maintain the integrity of the district that I

18 had won. And if it wasn't material from 2010, I lost in

19 2008, if it was not materially changed from 2010, then I

20 felt like I just -- I'd roll the dice, as I said

21 previously, on my record and see what happens.

22 Q. Do you have any recollection during the

23 redistricting process of either you or your staff asking

24 that any geographic area be either moved into District

25 78 or moved out while the mapping was being done?

9



Page 21

1 A. Clarification: That my staff asked about or

2 drove the process on?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No. We responded to the process, and the

5 process was driven by Representative Marquez who wanted

6 certain precincts.

7 Q. So with respect to the northeastern part of

8 your district and some of the exchange of territory with

9 District 79 represented by Mr. Pickett, did you or your

10 staff ever have a conversation with Mr. Pickett or his

11 staff about some of those neighborhoods up in the

12 northeast and whether or not you would rather keep them

13 or give them up?

14 A. There would have had to have been conversation

15 with Mr. Pickett on changes related to that; but, no, I

16 do not recall the specifics.

17 But when I would give up something in the

18 south that Representative Marquez wanted, it's the

19 proverbial squeezing the tube and it goes in -- you got

20 to make the changes for the demographics to meet the

21 population.

22 So if I've given up something, I've got to

23 take something, assuming that would keep the numbers

10



24 correct.

25 Q. Let's talk a little bit about your

Page 22

1 conversation with Representative Marquez where you

2 mentioned in your earlier testimony that she asked you

3 for certain geographic areas.

4 Do you remember when that conversation

5 happened between you and Ms. Marquez?

6 A. Not specifically, no. It was during the

7 ongoing -- they all knew that I was going to follow

8 whatever they wanted.

9 And, frankly, the areas -- we talked about

10 precincts, and she wanted the strong democratic

11 precincts.

12 Q. Did she ever tell you she wanted a piece of a

13 precinct but not a whole precinct?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Okay. And would it at least be fair to say

16 that your conversation with Ms. Marquez about some

17 precincts that she wanted was after Mr. Pickett showed

18 you-all that first map?

19 A. Oh, I'm certain it was. We had to have a

20 starting point. This was an iteration that came after

21 that.

11



23:17-24:4

17 Q. Okay. Do you remember the precincts that

18 Ms. Marquez identified as ones that she would like to

19 bring into her district from your district?

20 A. I do not recall the numbers; just the general

21 area.

22 Q. And tell me the general area.

23 A. It's this area on the map that's up here on

24 the west side, it's that area, the lower west side

25 (indicating).

Page 24

1 MR. SWEETEN: And if the record could

2 reflect that he's pointing to the northwestern portion

3 of District 77; is that correct?

4 THE WITNESS: Correct.

24:12-25:6

12 Q. (BY MS. PERALES) I'm going to hand you what

13 has been marked Deposition Exhibit No. 4, and represent

14 to you that it is a zoom-in on a portion of what you

15 already see in Exhibit 3, and that this is sort of the

16 northernmost portion of the western antler. And

17 hopefully this will help jog your memory.

18 I'd like to ask whether when Ms. Marquez

19 was talking to you about territory that she would

12



20 like -- precincts that she would like to have in her

21 district, did she mention Doniphan Road specifically?

22 A. I don't remember mentioning Doniphan Road

23 specifically.

24 What I remember is the discussion on the

25 precincts and their heavy democratic voting history, and

Page 25

1 that was what was driving her goal and objective.

2 Q. And so is it your understanding that the

3 boundaries of this western antler are driven largely by

4 the boundaries of precincts that she wanted in her

5 district?

6 A. Yes.

36:25-37:7

25 Q. I wasn't sure from your testimony in 2012

Page 37

1 whether you testified that Ms. Marquez came back to you

2 a second time for additional changes to the district or

3 whether you and she only negotiated once about changes

4 to the district.

5 A. My recollection is we probably had numerous

6 conversations at different times, and Marisa was always

7 tweaking.

37:17-38:4

13



17 Q. (BY MS. PERALES) Do you recall whether

18 Ms. Marquez came to you to ask for additional changes

19 between your districts after Chairman Solomons released

20 his statewide proposal on April 13th?

21 A. I would have to -- you would have to clarify.

22 Was the release on April 13th after all of us in the

23 House had had our own involvement and then gave it back

24 to him and then he released it?

25 I honestly don't recall whether we did or

Page 38

1 not.

2 I mean, Marisa was very concerned, she's

3 very protective, and she wanted to make sure she had a

4 good, strong democratic district.

40:21-41:1

21 Q. But can you think of any reason why you might

22 need to split 14 precincts?

23 A. Only from a population standpoint, I would

24 think, if we were going we were trying to keep it

25 geographically and we also knew everything had to be

Page 41

1 approved at the highest levels. So, you know...

48:16-21

16 Q. Do you know why this northeast area of El Paso

14



17 is divided into three different House districts in the

18 2011 plan? And those House districts being 79, 77 and

19 78.

20 A. No, other than geography and precincts,

21 population.

57:10-58:5

10 Q. Okay. And let's talk about that. How many

11 representatives were there in El Paso who discussed the

12 El Paso map during the 2011 session? How many members?

13 There were five?

14 A. Five of us.

15 Q. And tell me who those five members were that

16 were called the, quote, "El Paso Delegation."

17 A. Representative Chente Quintanilla;

18 Representative Naomi Gonzalez; Representative Joe

19 Pickett; Representative Marisa Marquez, and myself.

20 Q. And with respect to Representative Pickett,

21 how long had he been an elected member of the El Paso

22 Delegation?

23 A. I want to say '95, but I'm not sure.

24 Somewhere around there.

25 Q. And Representative Pickett's district is which

Page 58

1 one, what number?

15



2 A. 77 -- no -- 70 -- I can't remember which

3 number.

4 Q. Take a look at the map.

5 A. 79, I think.

58:10-62:5

10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you: Of the five members of

11 the El Paso Delegation, how many of those were

12 republicans and how many were democrats?

13 A. At the time I served?

14 Q. Uh-huh.

15 A. I was the only republican.

16 Q. So you had four democrats and one republican

17 in the El Paso Delegation, correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Let me ask you: Did you work well -- as a

20 general matter, did you work well with the rest of the

21 El Paso delegation?

22 A. I would say we did.

23 Q. Okay. Were you actually supported in 2012 in

24 your race for House District 78 by democratic members of

25 the El Paso Delegation?

Page 59

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. With respect to the physical features of

16



3 El Paso, there's some -- there's a physical feature in

4 El Paso that makes it very distinct from any of the

5 other -- from any other urban county in this state. And

6 can you tell us what that is?

7 A. The Franklin Mountains run down the center of

8 it.

9 Q. Okay. And would you agree with me that under

10 the -- well, let me just ask you.

11 Under the draw of HD283, did parts of

12 House District 77 go around the eastern side and some

13 around the western side of the mountain?

14 A. 77 or 78?

15 Q. 77.

16 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

17 Q. Okay. And is there population growth in all

18 those in all those sections around the mountain? Is

19 there population that is settled in both the western

20 portion and the eastern portion of El Paso?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Was there -- did you feel like -- I mean some

23 of the allegations are that in this case that minority

24 members didn't have -- in some areas of the state didn't

25 have input into the process.

Page 60

17



1 Were there minority members in El Paso who

2 had input into the process of the drawing of the map?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Who would those members be?

5 A. Representative Gonzalez; Representative

6 Marquez; Representative Quintanilla.

7 Q. Okay. Was a decision made to allocate five

8 representatives to El Paso rather than four communicated

9 to you somewhere in the process?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall who specifically

12 communicated that?

13 A. No, I don't recall.

14 Q. Okay. Do you think the decision to have five

15 representatives instead of four from El Paso was a

16 positive decision for the city of El Paso?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And for El Paso County?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Canutillo is an area of which district,

21 let's say coming into the 2011 session? Who had

22 Canutillo?

23 A. District 78.

24 Q. Okay. And that's your district, correct?

18



25 A. Yes.

Page 61

1 Q. And did you represent your district and all

2 portions of your district during your service in the

3 legislature?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Does that include representation of Canutillo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And tell us, did you campaign in Canutillo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you visit Canutillo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you responsive to the concerns of the

12 citizens when they would speak to you about their

13 concerns?

14 A. I believe I was.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I'm still getting calls from them to help.

17 Q. Okay. Tell us about one of the allegations

18 made by the multiple witnesses in this case related to

19 the Canutillo School District. I want you to tell the

20 court what is -- tell us about the Canutillo school --

21 the high school. Do they have a new high school there?

22 A. Yes.

19



23 Q. Do they have -- have they had bond funds --

24 have they had bonds passed to allocate funds for the

25 school district in Canutillo?

Page 62

1 A. Yes, they have.

2 Q. Okay. Have you been to the stadium?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. How would you describe the stadium?

5 A. It's got blue turf.

62:16-64:2

16 Q. Okay. I want to ask you: To your knowledge,

17 was there any intentional discrimination against Latinos

18 or African-Americans that played a part in the

19 construction of the House districts in El Paso?

20 MS. PERALES: Objection; foundation. You

21 may answer.

22 A. No. El Paso is 80 percent Hispanic. My

23 great-great grandmother came from Mexico. My great

24 grandmother came from Mexico. My father, No. 7 of 10,

25 didn't speak English until he was 18. There was nothing

Page 63

1 related to ethnicity, race or otherwise. It was always

2 republican, democrat.

3 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Had anyone at any point

20



4 during that process expressed to you an intent to

5 discriminate against Latinos, what would have been your

6 reaction to that?

7 MS. PERALES: Objection; speculation.

8 You may answer.

9 A. I would have said the same that I just said,

10 which is what I used to say to my republican colleagues

11 in the caucus who were not pro immigration was that, How

12 do you want me to answer? This is my family heritage.

13 What do you want me to say?

14 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay.

15 A. So I would have -- my daughter-in-law is

16 Cuban; my other daughter-in-law is from Barcelona,

17 Spain. I mean, you know.

18 Q. And would it have been something you would

19 have allowed to have occurred?

20 A. No, I would not have.

21 Q. Do you have any information that leads you to

22 believe that there was any intentional discrimination

23 occurring in the construction of the House districts in

24 El Paso, any whatsoever?

25 MS. PERALES: Sorry, Patrick. Objection;

Page 64

1 foundation. You may answer.

21



2 A. No.

64:21-65:11

21 Q. Are there Hispanic republicans in El Paso

22 County?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Tell me a little bit about the

25 community of Hispanic republicans in El Paso County.

Page 65

1 A. I mean, I don't look at them from an ethnicity

2 standpoint. I don't segregate based on Hispanics,

3 Latinos or any other nomenclature applied to them. It's

4 a republican group or not.

5 We're 80 percent Hispanic. We are one

6 community. We may vote democrat, we may vote

7 republican, but we're one community. That doesn't --

8 it's not viewed from a racial standpoint.

9 Q. But there are numbers of Hispanics in El Paso

10 County who vote republican; isn't that right?

11 A. That is correct.

22


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations MARISA MARQUEZ

State Defendants’


Marisa Marquez

1



7:5-7

5 Q. Good morning. Could you please state your

6 name.

7 A. Marisa Marquez.

9:20-21

20 Q. Okay. Great. And did you grow up in El Paso?

21 A. Yes.

10:12-16

12 Q. Okay. And I understand that you're a member

13 of the Texas House of Representatives?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. For District 77?

16 A. Yes.

10:20-11:2

20 Q. All right. And when were you elected to the

21 Texas House?

22 A. 2008.

23 Q. And you've been reelected how many times since

24 then?

25 A. Two.

Page 11

1 Q. Two. In 2010 and 2012?

2 A. Yes.

2



11:8-10

8 Q. Okay. Currently are you a member of the

9 Mexican American Legislative Caucus?

10 A. Yes.

15:1-17

1 Q. The upper valley. Okay. Do you have any --

2 any opinions on whether your district in this map, the

3 benchmark map, was misshapen or not?

4 A. I'm not familiar enough with how redistricting

5 works to say whether or not it's misshapen or not. I

6 don't know.

7 Q. Fair enough. So walk me through the 2011

8 legislative session. When I say the El Paso delegation,

9 who would you consider to be part of the El Paso

10 delegation?

11 A. In 2011?

12 Q. That's correct?

13 A. There's Joe Pickett, who's the dean.

14 There's -- wait, yeah. There's Chente Quintanilla.

15 He's no longer in the Legislature. And Naomi Gonzalez.

16 It was her first year. And then myself and Dee Margo.

17 He was also a freshman.

16:9-11

9 Q. So you were a member of MALC during the 2011

3



10 session. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

16:15-24

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember, during that same

16 session, if you -- if you ever had any communications or

17 spoke with anyone from the Texas Legislative Council?

18 A. In 2011?

19 Q. That's correct.

20 A. I probably -- I remember asking them how to

21 get into the Red Apple --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. -- but nothing specific to -- just how to

24 operate the application.

17:6-19

6 Q. Okay. During the 2011 session, did you try

7 and speak with Burt Solomons or his staff?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What about Speaker Straus?

10 A. Or his staff?

11 Q. Correct.

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Did you have any impression that

14 you weren't allowed to speak with Burt Solomons or

15 Speaker Straus or their staff?

4



16 A. So what are you asking me? If I felt like I

17 couldn't?

18 Q. Sure.

19 A. No.

18:2-18

2 Q. As I understand it, after the 2010 census,

3 some of the districts in El Paso were underpopulated.

4 Is that accurate?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember if your district was

7 underpopulated or overpopulated?

8 A. Under.

9 Q. All right. What about the rest of the El Paso

10 districts?

11 A. From what I can remember, Chente Quintanilla's

12 district was over, and Pickett's was under, Gonzalez was

13 under, Marcos was under and Margo was over.

14 Q. Okay. And during the session, is it fair to

15 say that the El Paso delegation wanted to correct those

16 with underpopulation and overpopulation within the new

17 map?

18 A. I believe that's what we -- we had to do.

20:9-21:9

9 Q. Sure. During the 2011 session, when you were

5



10 talking with the other members of the El Paso

11 delegation, did you discuss how certain districts were

12 overpopulated or underpopulated?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember any of those conversations?

15 A. Not every single one. I mean we had

16 discussions, yes. We were a delegation in El Paso

17 County. There was a story written about it in the

18 "El Paso Times" as well of which we were asked to

19 comment. So there was various conversations about the

20 members.

21 Q. The story in the "El Paso Times," tell me a

22 little bit about that. Was that in -- in 2011?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what was the nature of that story?

25 A. Just that redistricting was starting and

Page 21

1 that -- I guess they just gave the numbers of where

2 everybody was according to the census and how the

3 delegation felt about holding on to five seats within

4 El Paso County.

5 Q. Okay. And -- and how did you feel about

6 holding on to five seats in El Paso County?

7 A. That was a priority for our community, that we

6



8 wanted to make sure that we had five seats in El Paso

9 County.

21:15-25

15 Q. Okay. So when you were working, was the

16 entire El Paso delegation on board with keeping five

17 seats in El Paso County?

18 A. I can't speak for them, but my impression was

19 that yes.

20 Q. Okay. And when the 2011 map was passed, it

21 did have five districts in El Paso. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were happy with that, that there were

24 five districts in El Paso?

25 A. Yes.

22:23-25

23 Q. Do you know who took the lead on drawing the

24 El Paso districts?

25 A. Chairman Pickett.

24:4-25:7

4 Q. Okay. So when, during the 2011 session, did

5 you first speak -- or if you did speak with Mr. Pickett

6 about the El Paso maps?

7 A. When the Red Apple app came out and we

8 received the information about our specific districts

7



9 and the population over and under, I did have a

10 conversation with Chairman Pickett, and he had told us,

11 and I mean us as in Representative Gonzalez and I, to go

12 and explore with the Red Apple and to see where we might

13 agree on changes to the district.

14 We -- Representative Gonzalez and I

15 worked on it together. I guess you save it and then you

16 can share it with somebody so that once you manipulate a

17 map, correct, you save it and then somebody else can see

18 it. So we sent it to Pickett. He asked us to -- to

19 engage in that exercise.

20 When we came up with the map, we sent it

21 to Pickett, and he was very upset, and he said that we

22 had significantly changed his district, and -- because

23 you're asking me about the conversation I had with

24 Pickett, correct?

25 Q. Right.

Page 25

1 A. Okay. So he was upset.

2 Q. And his district was District 79?

3 A. Is.

4 Q. Is still "79"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was "79"?

8



7 A. Yes.

25:17-27:5

17 Q. How did you learn how Red Apple functioned?

18 A. Just sitting there and messing with it.

19 Q. Okay. And then did she -- do you know if

20 Ms. Gonzalez also used Red Apple?

21 A. Her and I sat in the same office and worked on

22 the map --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- in my office. So her and I sat together in

25 my office and manipulated the maps.

Page 26

1 Q. Okay. And when you were sitting in that

2 office with Ms. Gonzalez, were you looking at -- at

3 numbers on -- on the number of Hispanics who would be

4 placed into your district?

5 A. I remember us just looking specifically at

6 population. From what I recall, we were under -- her

7 and I were the ones that were lacking the most

8 population. I think we were under 30,000. I'm not

9 very -- I don't recall the specific number.

10 So our goal, when we sat in that office

11 manipulating Red Apple, was to make up that population

12 or find ways where we could increase our -- yeah, make

9



13 up the population.

14 Q. Did you have any access to -- to a voting

15 analysis on how certain areas of El Paso voted?

16 A. All of the information that we had was

17 whatever was available on Red Apple.

18 Q. Okay. And so you remember looking at

19 population. Are there any other factors you remember

20 looking at with Ms. Gonzalez when you were using Red

21 Apple?

22 A. No. We were just looking at population.

23 Q. Okay. And so -- so you sent the -- the map

24 that you put together with Ms. Gonzalez to Joe Pickett,

25 Joe Pickett look at it, and then -- and then what

Page 27

1 happened?

2 A. He was upset.

3 Q. Did he send you an email or give you a phone

4 call?

5 A. I think he called.

28:1-10

1 Q. Okay. And then do you remember how you let

2 Mr. Pickett know that you and Ms. Gonzalez had made the

3 changes you wanted?

4 A. We called him.

10



5 Q. You called him. Okay. And then -- and then

6 once he took a look at it, what were his concerns

7 with -- with the map that you put together?

8 A. He was very upset. He said that we -- and I

9 remember him saying this specifically, "You came up

10 almost straight to my front door."

28:19-21

19 Q. So he was upset because you drew a map that he

20 said came up almost to his front door?

21 A. That is what he said to us.

28:24-30:7

24 Q. Was he concerned about -- Did he tell you he

25 had any concerns about the population changes, meaning

Page 29

1 the demographic changes in your map?

2 A. No. He did not discuss specifics on

3 population or any of those other variables.

4 Q. Okay. Other than the fact that -- that it

5 came up to his front door, did he express any other

6 concerns to you?

7 A. With regard to the map?

8 Q. Correct.

9 A. That we didn't know what we were doing.

10 Q. And did he give any explanation as to why that

11



11 bothered him?

12 A. No. I just remember telling him, well, don't

13 give -- you can't -- what did I tell him. You give --

14 you give toddlers concrete and drills and then you

15 expect them to -- or I made a comment like that, like we

16 are not familiar -- basically what I expressed to him is

17 you gave a sophomore and a freshman legislator an

18 opportunity to manipulate a map and then you're pissed

19 off because we didn't know what we were -- we didn't

20 know the process. We didn't know what we were doing.

21 We were just playing around with the map to make sure

22 that we made up population in our districts.

23 Q. So did he say -- did he say why he felt that

24 you didn't do it well?

25 A. I guess that's why he was upset. He was upset

Page 30

1 because he felt that we did know what we were doing and

2 we were trying to manipulate a map that would -- that --

3 I don't know. I don't know why he was upset.

4 But I -- we did express to him -- both

5 Representative Gonzalez and I did express to him that

6 you told us to engage in this exercise, we did the best

7 we could, and we -- we figured it was a starting point.

31:17-32:23

12



17 Q. Okay. So once Mr. Pickett saw the changes

18 that you put together with Ms. Gonzalez, when's -- what

19 is the next that you heard from Mr. Pickett regarding

20 the El Paso districts?

21 A. That he -- I think it was the next -- I don't

22 remember. I don't remember if I had specific

23 conversations with him afterwards.

24 All I do remember is that he brought a

25 map to the House floor and told us that that was going

Page 32

1 to be the El Paso County map and that we had to initial

2 it because time was running out.

3 Q. So, just so I've got the right chronology

4 here, and let me know where I'm mistaken if I am

5 mistaken, you put together a map with Ms. Gonzalez,

6 spoke with Mr. Pickett that he didn't particularly like

7 it, and then he didn't speak with you again until you

8 saw the map on the House floor. Is that accurate?

9 A. Yeah. He was -- he was pissed.

10 Q. Okay. And when is the first time you saw

11 the -- the El Paso districts as drawn by -- Excuse me.

12 Let me take that back.

13 So the map that Mr. Pickett presented on

14 the House floor, do you know -- Go ahead.

13



15 A. I want to correct you. He did not present it

16 on the House floor. You're making it sound like he was

17 running with it as an amendment or something.

18 He took it to our desks in a private

19 conversation with the delegation members. So that's --

20 I wouldn't say it like that.

21 MR. GARZA: On the House floor?

22 A. When we say on the "House floor," we're

23 assuming that we're putting it into the record.

33:19-25

19 Q. Okay. So when -- when Mr. Pickett comes to

20 speak with you, the other three members of the El Paso

21 delegation were all in that meeting. Is that accurate?

22 A. No. It was Margo, Gonzalez, me and Pickett.

23 Q. And Quintanilla was not there?

24 A. He was not there when I laid eyes on the map

25 for the first time.

37:3-9

3 Q. And I just want to make sure here. Your

4 objection to what Mr. Pickett presented to you was

5 based -- based on that map? He didn't give you any

6 reports showing specific figures or data at that time?

7 A. No, not when he showed us the map. It was the

8 map only.

14



9 You keep asking me the same question.

37:25-38:4

25 Q. So there's been -- there's been an allegation

Page 38

1 that Hispanics were taken out of districts -- other

2 districts and moved into your district to concentrate

3 Hispanics into District 77.

4 A. No, I would not agree with that.

39:2-11

2 Q. (Mr. Neill continuing) So this meeting with --

3 with Joe Pickett, Dee Margo, yourself, Quintanilla and

4 Ms. Gonzalez --

5 A. No, no Quintanilla.

6 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Quintanilla was not at this

7 meeting?

8 A. Which meeting are you referring to?

9 Q. I'm referring to when Mr. Pickett presented

10 you a map.

11 A. Yes.

39:16-22

16 Q. Okay. How did that meeting resolve? Did he

17 give you any instructions on what he expected you to do

18 next or what he was going to do next?

19 A. He presented us the map. We all looked at it.

15



20 He told us that it was on Red Apple if we wanted to go

21 look at the numbers, and that was -- and that we were

22 running out of time.

40:7-13

7 Q. Okay. And he said you were running out of

8 time. And did he say what the next step was going to

9 be?

10 A. That he would let us look at them and that he

11 would like for us to at some point initial them so that

12 they can just be done with El Paso County on the

13 redistricting committee.

40:19-41:4

19 Q. Okay. And so at that initial meeting, when

20 you first saw the map he put together, did you -- do you

21 remember if you had any specific comments to him about

22 your district?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I -- I saw the map. He told us to -- that the

Page 41

1 data would be available on Red Apple and that to please

2 look it over and review it because at a later time he

3 would like us to initial it so that they could be done

4 with El Paso County on the redistricting committee.

16



41:22-43:14

22 Q. Big printout. Okay. When is the next time

23 you looked at that map either on a printout or on Red

24 Apple?

25 A. In my office. I don't remember when.

Page 42

1 Obviously, after the meeting in my office we looked at

2 the numbers.

3 Q. Okay. When you say "we," who is "we"?

4 A. Me and my staff.

5 Q. Okay. And you pulled -- when you say "the

6 numbers," what do you mean by the numbers?

7 A. To see if we had enough population.

8 Q. Okay. Did you look at any -- any other data

9 points, any other numbers other than population?

10 A. No. I looked at specific areas that were

11 removed. Because you can overlay, we used the overlay

12 function of where we put my old map, and then we laid

13 out the one Pickett showed us, and we examined the areas

14 that were removed from my district and those that were

15 added.

16 Q. Okay. And when you -- when you looked at that

17 with your staff, did anyone raise concerns other than

18 the fact that you were losing geography, such as your

17



19 numbers were changing one way or the other?

20 A. I recognized that I was going down in surname

21 in Latinos.

22 Q. Okay. So after this meeting with your staff,

23 then did you -- did you speak with anyone else from the

24 El Paso delegation regarding your concerns?

25 A. Yes.

Page 43

1 Q. And -- and who did you speak with?

2 A. Representative Gonzalez.

3 Q. Okay. And then did she come to your office

4 and have a meeting? Did you go to her office and call

5 her up? How did that happen?

6 A. We talked on the House floor.

7 Q. Okay. And -- and what did you let her know?

8 A. I told her, "Hey, you took most of my stuff."

9 She said, "Hey, I didn't draw the map."

10 Q. Okay. And did you -- was that it other than

11 the geography?

12 A. The geography. I asked her if she had her

13 population, and she said that she hadn't had a chance to

14 look at the numbers.

43:25-44:14

25 Q. Okay. Then after you looked at the maps and

18



Page 44

1 the data, when did you let -- or did you let Mr. Pickett

2 know about your concern?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how and when did you do that?

5 A. On the House floor sometime afterwards. I

6 said I was very concerned about the drastic changes made

7 to mine.

8 Q. And what was his response to that?

9 A. "You'll be fine."

10 Q. Okay. How did you feel about that? Did you

11 believe him?

12 A. You're asking me how I felt?

13 Q. I am.

14 A. Okay. I don't remember.

47:9-22

9 Q. Now, at some point in time, did you initial a

10 map giving your approval to a map for El Paso County?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when was that? Do you know?

13 A. I don't remember a specific date, but

14 obviously before the maps came out of the redistricting

15 committee.

16 Q. Okay. And to the best of your recollection,

19



17 is Exhibit 3 -- did you -- did you ever give your

18 approval to how your district was drawn in Exhibit 3?

19 A. I can't tell you for sure because I don't --

20 this looks like the map, but I -- I'm not sure that it

21 is the map that I signed off on. I'd have to see the

22 map that I have my initials on.

48:12-49:13

12 Q. So -- so Pickett shows you the map, you spoke

13 briefly with Ms. Gonzalez, you looked at it in your

14 office, and then after you looked at it in your office,

15 did you go speak with Dee Margo or did you go back to

16 Mr. Pickett?

17 A. I told you I went to go see Mr. Pickett, and I

18 said that I had some concerns about the way my district

19 was drawn, and he told me "You'll be fine."

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. So then he asked us to -- I don't remember how

22 long after that conversation with him, but he asked us

23 to sign -- to initial them. I said that I still had

24 concerns about the way my district was drawn, and he

25 said that -- that I was free to ask -- that I basically

Page 49

1 could not go any east -- anywhere east because those

2 were tight, it was going to be tight, but that if -- if

20



3 I wanted to work with Dee Margo that I was -- he had no

4 objection to us having a conversation about manipulating

5 the map on -- between "77" and "78."

6 Q. When he said it would be tight, what did he

7 mean? Do you know what he meant?

8 MR. GARZA: If you know.

9 A. I would assume that they were right at

10 population. I'm assuming. I don't know. I'm assuming

11 that his -- him saying "tight" meant any movement would

12 significantly knock off Representatives Gonzalez,

13 Quintanilla and Pickett.

50:2-22

2 Q. And so when you approached Dee Margo, what did

3 you ask of him?

4 A. I approached Dee Margo after we were told that

5 the maps were pretty much going to stay in place the way

6 they were.

7 Q. Meaning the way it was presented?

8 A. The way Pickett presented it to the

9 delegation.

10 I approached Dee and asked him if I could

11 take on some precincts that had -- that had a high

12 number of Hispanic surnames, and he -- he agreed.

13 Q. Okay.

21



14 A. I didn't -- I wasn't -- at that point, I

15 wasn't talking about the geography because we were

16 already in a position to where it was either that or try

17 to make some kind of modifications, and Dee agreed.

18 Q. Now, these precincts that you wanted to add

19 and it was based off -- how did you know the information

20 regarding whether they were Hispanic or not or their --

21 their percentage of Hispanic voters?

22 A. By manipulating it on Red Apple.

51:11-52:12

11 Q. When you first put together the map with

12 Ms. Gonzalez, did you do a similar approach by looking

13 to see how your Hispanic numbers were changing in your

14 district?

15 A. No. I told you that I -- we looked at

16 population only.

17 Q. Okay. Now, when you were talking with

18 Mr. Margo about making some changes to his district and

19 making some changes to your district, was this on the --

20 on the floor, or where did this meeting occur?

21 A. On the floor.

22 Q. Okay. And did you have a map that you gave to

23 him to explain it to him so he could see what was

24 happening, or did you just -- explain to me how that

22



25 happened.

Page 52

1 A. I had a map like this, a page. I didn't have

2 the big one. I just had a map, and I showed him, not

3 with any specific data, but I said that I would like

4 these areas if he would -- would be okay with that.

5 Q. Okay. And the map --

6 A. But I want to be very clear --

7 Q. Sure.

8 A. I want to be very clear that I was put in this

9 position. I was told that the maps were not going to

10 change and that I -- if I -- after the maps were

11 initialed that if I wanted to make any modifications, it

12 would have to all be done west.

54:19-55:8

19 Q. But you did come to an agreement with him?

20 A. Okay. Let me take a step back. We agreed

21 to -- I asked him to make changes, and those -- some of

22 them weren't allowed -- I don't remember. I'm trying to

23 remember specifically because I want to give you the --

24 the right answer, which is I'm sure there were

25 modifications. I cannot speak to the specific ones. I

Page 55

1 don't remember. I don't remember the specific precincts

23



2 or the specific geographic areas that we made changes

3 on.

4 I'd have to go back to look at the

5 original as it was given to me and the one that finally

6 passed and to tell you that, yes, I agreed to that

7 particular precinct being in that map. I would have to

8 see both maps.

55:14-56:7

14 So let's just talk a little bit more

15 about this conversation with Dee Margo. He -- he did --

16 as he says here in his declaration, he says he was happy

17 to agree to these changes.

18 Would you agree that he -- he was

19 amenable to making some changes to his district?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And so did you or did Mr. Margo go back

22 to -- to Joe Pickett and tell him about some changes

23 that -- that you and Mr. Margo had agreed upon?

24 A. I remember -- Yes. I remember having a

25 conversation with him saying that since I was not

Page 56

1 allowed to move east and I was not happy with my

2 district that Dee had agreed to make some modifications

3 and if that -- if that would pose any problem. I asked

24



4 Pickett.

5 Q. And -- and was he responsive to that?

6 A. Then he said, "Well, as long as you and Margo

7 agree, I don't care."

57:12-15

12 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that the

13 Hispanic voter population in your district decreased

14 from the map you were elected under, the benchmark map?

15 A. Yes.

57:25-58:4

25 Q. Okay. When you were discussing the 2011 map,

Page 58

1 did -- did you or anyone else in the El Paso delegation

2 raise a concern that there might be precincts that were

3 split between District 77 and District 78?

4 A. No.

59:25-60:23

25 Q. Now, we talked about going to the west and

Page 60

1 making changes based off what -- based off the map that

2 Joe Pickett gave you.

3 This area we're talking about in the

4 northeast, is that something you discussed with Dee

5 Margo as well?

25



6 A. We discussed -- well, yeah, we discussed both

7 our districts.

8 Q. Right. But specifically this northeast

9 portion there, was that discussed?

10 A. That was part of our discussion, yes.

11 Q. Okay. And does that part of the -- did he

12 agree to -- to make any changes to his district and your

13 district in that area?

14 A. He was agreeable, but I don't remember exactly

15 which ones were changed --

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. -- meaning he did not object. When I came to

18 him and asked him for specific precincts, he did not

19 object. But I can't tell you here without looking at --

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. -- actual precincts which ones. I'm going

22 back to what the changes were from the Pickett map to

23 the final.

61:3-11

3 Q. Okay. And after you discussed the changes

4 with Dee Margo, who let Joe Pickett know that -- that

5 you and Mr. Margo had agreed to some changes?

6 A. I would assume both of us. I did, and I think

7 Dee did also. I'm not sure.

26



8 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Pickett have any problem

9 with making those changes?

10 A. Not that I remember. Not in my conversation

11 with him.

64:6-12

6 Q. So in the session when you're looking at these

7 maps and working with the delegation on drawing the

8 districts, did anyone discuss with you the possibility

9 that those districts might violate the Voting Rights

10 Act?

11 A. I don't remember having a conversation about

12 the Voting Rights Act.

65:13-67:4

13 Q. Right. And we've discussed the concerns of

14 being -- the eastern portion being removed and the

15 Hispanic percentage decreasing.

16 Were you concerned that it does look like

17 there's two antlers, that there's a portion that goes to

18 the west and there's a portion that goes to the

19 northeast?

20 A. I remember there was some concern, but I don't

21 remember the specifics.

22 Q. And who -- who was concerned about that?

23 A. I told you that I read something in the paper

27



24 about an opinion or something like that.

25 Q. Right.

Page 66

1 A. But you're asking if my colleagues or somebody

2 came up to me some?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No. I don't remember --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- having conversations about that.

7 Q. All right. And then I know we talked a little

8 bit about on Red Apple being able to look at some

9 demographics and populations and whatnot.

10 But did you -- you weren't trying to

11 divide voters along racial lines, or was anyone in the

12 El Paso delegation trying to divide voters along racial

13 lines?

14 MR. GARZA: If you know.

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. Were you --

17 A. I don't even know what that means. What do

18 you mean "racial lines"?

19 Q. Meaning perhaps Hispanics are here, other

20 demographics are over here, and we're going to divide

21 them.

28



22 A. No. I don't remember any of those

23 conversations.

24 Q. Did you have any conversations -- similar

25 conversations with members outside of the El Paso

Page 67

1 delegation?

2 A. About?

3 Q. About -- about dividing along racial lines.

4 A. No.

68:25-69:6

25 Q. Okay. Have you ever heard a claim from anyone

Page 69

1 in El Paso who lives in -- who lived in Dee Margo's

2 district that they were denied representation because

3 they lived in his district?

4 A. Have I ever heard that?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. No.

76:24-77:14

24 Q. Okay. So -- so how did the change -- how did

25 the Hispanic population change in your district from

Page 77

1 2011 to 2013?

2 A. Based on the exhibits that you've handed me,

29



3 by 3 percent.

4 Q. Okay. 3 percent lowered?

5 A. Yes, because this is the 2011. Right? This

6 is 2011 and this is 2013. Okay.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Yeah. Based on the information you have here,

9 it went down, yeah, 3 percent -- about 3 percent.

10 Q. Now, when the Court drew its -- its map for

11 El Paso County, which was not changed by the Legislature

12 in 2013, do you think that the Court intended to protect

13 and maintain the rights of Hispanics in El Paso?

14 A. I don't know.

78:6-9

6 Q. Okay. With the way your district is

7 configured in the 2013 map, is there any portion of it

8 that you think is illegal?

9 A. I don't know.

80:12-22

12 Q. Okay. Great. Did you feel like you were

13 excluded from the redistricting process in 2013 in any

14 way?

15 A. Did I feel excluded?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I don't know. I don't know how to answer

30



18 that. By whom?

19 Q. By any of your colleagues in the House.

20 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I mean you're talking about 150 people.

83:19-85:1

19 Q. Okay. Walk me through, if you can remember,

20 how the -- what was the difference between the amendment

21 proposed solely by Joe Moody and the amendment proposed

22 by you and Joe Moody?

23 A. From what I can remember, he filed an

24 amendment to take precincts from my district in the

25 northeast and add precincts on the west side. That's

Page 84

1 from my recollection. He did not tell me he was going

2 to run with that amendment. I found out that he had

3 filed the amendment, and I approached him and asked him

4 what he was doing, and he said that he was making

5 modifications to his district.

6 When I looked at the amendment, I don't

7 remember what it -- I can't say what it looked like, but

8 I do remember there were portions of the northeast that

9 he tried -- see, I want to say that this area here, and

10 I'm pointing to Exhibit 9, the lower part of the

31



11 purple --

12 MR. GARZA: In the shaded area.

13 A. -- in the shaded area, that was included to

14 the best of my memory. To the best of my knowledge, as

15 far as I can remember, that was included in there, and I

16 objected, and I asked why he was including that in my --

17 in my district, and he said because he was taking some

18 of these areas in the northeast.

19 You-all don't want to hear it?

20 Q. No. I'm listening.

21 A. Okay. So he was going to take some of these

22 and that he was trying to make up so that I wasn't

23 losing population, and so then we discussed it, and then

24 that's what he --

25 Q. Okay.

Page 85

1 A. -- filed.

85:24-86:1

24 Q. Okay. Now --

25 A. I did not push this amendment. This amendment

Page 86

1 was filed originally by Moody.

86:7-87:2

7 Q. Okay. So I don't want to talk about the

32



8 Joe Moody amendment. I want to talk about the Joe Moody

9 and Marisa Marquez amendment.

10 A. I agreed to it with Moody -- How do I say

11 this. I wasn't the driving force. The only reason why

12 I worked with him on it is because he had -- he had

13 filed it originally, and he was going to file it, and so

14 I wanted some input. That's as clearly as I can make

15 it. I wanted to make sure that I had input on

16 modifications to my district.

17 Q. Okay. And did you make those modifications in

18 the amendment you proposed?

19 A. Yes. And I thought that it was going to make

20 my -- my district -- I don't remember. I really don't

21 remember. I just remember -- Hold on. Timeout.

22 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)

23 A. This thing was going to get done with or

24 without me and I wanted to be a part of it.

25 Q. And I'm not –

Page 87

1 A. He was going to file it, and I just wanted to

2 have some input.

87:19-88:13

19 Q. Did you then go and look at his amendment on

20 Red Apple, or how did you learn what it was doing?

33



21 A. I went to him and I told him "What are you

22 doing" --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- "Show me the amendment."

25 Q. All right. And the amendment that – that

Page 88

1 came up for a vote was not his amendment but, rather, it

2 was the Moody-Marquez amendment. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And the Moody-Marquez amendment, tell

5 me what -- what it would have done to your district.

6 A. It would have taken away some precincts on the

7 northeast and added some on the west side.

8 Q. Okay. In the northeast. And the districts on

9 the -- on the west side that it would have added, can

10 you tell me a little bit about the demographics on that?

11 A. I don't remember --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- the specifics.

89:21-90:2

21 Q. So would you agree with me that Exhibit No. 9

22 is the map reflecting the Moody-Marquez amendment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. We discussed a little bit about --

34



25 about this. Did you get on Red Apple and assist with

Page 90

1 the drawing of this Exhibit No. 9?

2 A. No.

92:2-21

2 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that I had

3 that clear there.

4 Now, going back to how the Moody-Marquez

5 amendment would have changed District 77 from the 2013

6 map that was passed, do you know generally whether the

7 Hispanic population in District 77 -- if the

8 Moody-Marquez amendment had been passed, if the Spanish

9 population in your district would have increased or

10 decreased?

11 A. I don't have that information.

12 Q. When you were working on the amendment, did

13 you have a general idea?

14 A. From what I can recall, it made very minimal

15 changes to the district. That's why I agreed to it.

16 Q. Do you remember if those changes increased

17 your population --

18 A. I do not. Sorry.

19 Q. -- the Hispanic population in your district or

20 decreased it?

35




93:6-94:5

6 Q. Now I want to compare the H-CVAP in your

7 district under the Moody-Marquez amendment with the

8 H-CVAP for your district in 2013.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. So let me know if I've got this right. Under

11 the 2013 plan, H358, the H-CVAP in your district was

12 70.2 percent. Is that correct?

13 A. I see that.

14 Q. Okay. And then in the Moody-Marquez

15 amendment, the H-CVAP in your district is 68.3 percent.

16 Is that correct?

17 A. I see that.

18 Q. Okay. So the H-CVAP in your district would

19 have decreased in the Moody-Marquez amendment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And similarly let's take a look at

22 District 78. In the 2013 plan, the H-CVAP was

23 59.7 percent; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And under the Moody-Marquez amendment, it was

Page 94


36



2 A. I see that.

3 Q. So the Hispanic population in Joe Moody's

4 district would have increased. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Based on these charts, yes.

94:10-14

10 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that by

11 increasing the Hispanic population in Joe Moody's

12 district, it would make it a safer seat for Joe Moody to

13 win reelection?

14 A. I don't know.

94:20-23

20 Q. Would it -- If the Moody-Marquez amendment had

21 passed, would it be more difficult for you to get

22 reelected in your district?

23 A. I don't know.

95:10-24

10 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 10, which we looked at

11 before the break, which was the supplement to the "House

12 Journal" for June 20th, there are some comments in there

13 I want to ask you about.

14 One of the -- one of the issues is, I

15 believe, if I'm getting this correctly, you stated that

16 the amendment, if passed, would -- would make it so that

17 you would not have to go from one side of the Franklins

37



18 to the other?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if we look at Exhibit No. 9, which is the

21 map for the Moody-Marquez amendment -- this is it.

22 A. Oh, this is it. Okay. Sorry.

23 Q. The Franklin Mountains are shaded on there.

24 A. Uh-huh.

96:24-97:4

24 Q. Okay. But you would still have to cross the

25 mountain in both of those maps. Is that correct?

Page 97

1 A. The mountains run through district -- the

2 smaller part of the range does run through District 77.

3 Q. In both maps?

4 A. Yes.

97:24-98:19

24 Q. Okay. Now, my question is -- and, again, I

25 know that wasn't your statement. But in Exhibit 5, do

Page 98

1 you think there's a legal deficiency with how

2 District 77 and 78 are drawn?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Okay. And I understand that the idea for this

5 amendment was not your idea but that you eventually did

38



6 support it, and can you tell me the reasons you

7 supported this amendment?

8 MR. GARZA: Objection, argumentative.

9 She's been asked that question and she's answered it.

10 You can go ahead and answer it again.

11 A. Why I supported it?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Well, my colleague had filed an amendment. I

14 wanted to make sure that I had input.

15 Q. So you wanted to have input?

16 A. He was -- Moody was making modifications to my

17 district without my consent. When I learned of it, I

18 asked him to be a part of the process and make

19 modifications.

99:14-17

14 Q. I'm handing you Exhibit 13, which is a map of

15 the Moody-Marquez amendment with election results shaded

16 in.

17 A. Okay.

99:24-101:12

24 Would you agree with me that that portion

25 of the -- of your district would divide Republican

Page 100

1 districts between District 78 and District 77?

39



2 A. What are you looking at?

3 Q. Sure. So on Exhibit No. 13, this is your

4 district, "77" --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- at the bottom here.

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. If you go up and to the west --

9 A. Okay. I see what you're looking at. I've got

10 you. Okay.

11 Q. Running along I-10 and then to the west.

12 A. So what is your question?

13 Q. The light shaded districts --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- those would you agree with me vote more --

16 voted more for the Republican candidate in the 2008

17 presidential contest?

18 A. Based on the information that you've provided

19 me and looking at the table, if does look like that.

20 Q. And in this amendment, it would have divided

21 some of those voters -- partial -- part of those voters

22 in "78" and part of those voters in "77"?

23 A. It looks -- it looks that way. And also in

24 "76."


40



Page 101

1 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you what's been

2 marked as Exhibit No. 14, and this Exhibit No. 14 is the

3 El Paso Districts 77 and 78, specifically with political

4 shading under Map 358, which is the 2013 map.

5 Looking at that same portion running

6 along I-10, the political shading doesn't change; but in

7 this map, those districts are all included in

8 District 78, those Republican districts -- I'm sorry,

9 those Republican precincts. Is that -- Would you agree

10 with me on that?

11 A. Yes. Looking at Exhibit 14, it shows that the

12 lighter colored areas are in "78."

101:17-103:17

17 Q. Was there any partisan motive behind

18 supporting this amendment?

19 MR. GARZA: Objection, argumentative.

20 She's been asked that question in a different way and

21 she's answered it.

22 Q. You can go ahead and answer.

23 A. No.


25 Q. I'm handing you Exhibit 15, which is an

Page 102

41



1 article from June 30th of 2013 from the "El Paso Times."

2 Let me know when you're done reading that, but

3 specifically I'm looking -- I'll be asking you questions

4 about Page 3.

5 A. Okay. Okay.

6 Q. Is that an accurate quote that the reporter

7 wrote down when you stated, "It would increase the

8 number of Democratic districts in El Paso, but El Paso

9 is a Democratic city"?

10 A. I don't even remember making it, but I'm

11 assuming that I said it.

12 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, this article and

13 this quote is in reference to the Moody-Marquez

14 amendment?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And the Moody-Marquez amendment was not

17 accepted by the House. Correct?

18 A. Well, it was but then it wasn't. So I

19 remember Darby made an announcement on the House floor

20 and said that if members wanted to change or make

21 modifications to their districts and the other person

22 agreed that it would be accepted. However -- and I

23 think in the case of Rafael Anchia, that -- his

24 amendment was accepted and ours was not ultimately, even

42



25 though that announcement was made before the process

Page 103

1 began.

2 Q. At the bottom of Page 3 of that exhibit,

3 there's a quote there where it's referencing the

4 rejection of your amendment or how the amendment did not

5 pass, and -- and you state, "'I thought it was unfair,'

6 Marquez said of the rejection of her amendment. 'I can

7 only assume it's because we're members of the Democratic

8 Party.'"

9 Again, is that -- do you have any reason

10 to dispute the accuracy of that quote?

11 A. No. It is a fair assumption of why ours was

12 not accepted.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have any other reason other than

14 because you were Democrats to think the amendment was

15 rejected?

16 A. We were not given any reasons by Chairman

17 Darby.

103:21-104:7

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge of facts to make you

22 think or believe there were other reasons this amendment

23 was rejected other than the fact that you were -- you

24 and Representative Moody are both Democrats?

43



25 A. Do I have -- Okay. Repeat the question. I'm

Page 104

1 sorry.

2 MR. NEILL: Could you read that back.

3 (Requested portion was read)

4 A. Any other facts, no.

5 Q. Do you think this was rejected because you're

6 Hispanic?

7 A. I don't know.

104:18-25

18 Q. Okay. Do you know why you voted against the

19 2013 House map?

20 A. Specific reasons. Well, I can tell you that I

21 did not feel that the process was fair, that certain

22 people's amendments were accepted and others weren't.

23 Q. Would you have voted for the 2013 House map if

24 the Moody-Marquez amendment had been accepted?

25 A. I don't know.

106:9-20

9 Q. Okay. Do you have any other criticism of the

10 statewide Texas House plan for 2013?

11 A. So that would be which one?

12 Q. It would be --

13 A. This one?

44



14 Q. Right.

15 MR. GARZA: You're asking about statewide

16 and not just El Paso?

17 MR. NEILL: Yes.


19 Q. Okay.

20 A. My concern was only El Paso County.

107:3-17

3 Q. So I'm handing you Exhibit 16, which is a map

4 of congressional districts in El Paso County.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. This was the map that was passed by the 2011

7 Legislature.

8 A. Okay.


10 Q. And Exhibit 17 --

11 A. "16." Oh, you're giving me another one?

12 Q. Correct.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. This is Exhibit 17, which is a map of the

15 El Paso counties -- or El Paso County and showing the

16 congressional districts for the 2013 plan.

17 A. Okay.

108:1-15

45



1 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that the

2 districts -- those congressional districts were drawn

3 any differently in the two maps?

4 A. I can't comment on this because I was not a

5 part of that process.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. I did not have any input on either of these

8 maps reflected in the congressional districts.

9 Q. In 2011 or 2013?

10 A. Both, yes.

11 Q. Okay. I know we were just talking about

12 El Paso, but outside of El Paso County, statewide did

13 you have any input for the rest of the congressional

14 districts in the maps?

15 A. No.

111:10-24

10 Q. Has anyone in El Paso or in your district ever

11 told you that they did not vote because of past

12 discrimination?

13 A. Do you mean a voter came up to me and said to

14 me "I did not vote because I was discriminated against"?

15 Q. Yes. Has anyone ever made such a statement to

16 you?

17 A. Not that I can recall specifically for those

46



18 reasons.

19 Q. For other reasons?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And what were those?

22 A. That they didn't like the candidates or that

23 they didn't feel that the candidates reflected the

24 district. I mean those are just general comments.

47


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations TREY MARTINEZ-FISCHER

1

State Defendants’


Trey Martinez-Fischer



2

8:5-7

5 TREY MARTINEZ-FISCHER

6 called as a witness herein, having been first duly

7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

15:15-17

15 Q. And you are the -- what's your posit ion with

16 MALC?

17 A. I'm the chairman of the caucus.

20:13-21

13 Q. 2001. And you've served as a House

14 Representative from 2001 to the present?


16 Q. There weren't any breaks in your ser vice,

17 correct?

18 A. No breaks.

19 Q. Okay. You serve right now in House District

20 116 here in San Antonio, correct?


22:4-11

4 Q. What are your current committee assi gnments?

5 A. Okay. I am the -- I serve on the Co mmittee on

6 Ways and Means; I serve on the Committee on Na tural

7 Resources; I'm on the Select Committee for Tra nsparency

8 and State Agency Operations, and I'm on the Se lect

9 Committee for Redistricting.

10 Q. And you are a democrat, correct?

11 A. I am.

24:7-20

7 Q. You're familiar with case decisions that



3

8 interpret Section 2; is that right?

9 A. Not so much. I'm familiar with, you know,

10 lawyers and resources and experts that certain ly have

11 that expertise and I've participated in conver sations

12 with them, but I don't have what I believe is firsthand

13 knowledge of the state of the law with respect to

14 redistricting or Section 2.

15 I can have a general conversati on, but I

16 certainly wouldn't hold myself out as a voting rights

17 lawyer.

18 Q. Okay. And you wouldn't hold yoursel f out as a

19 voting rights expert, correct?


29:1-12

1 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Well, I'm as king

2 generally, is it your testimony that if you ha ve a

3 sufficient Latino population in a specific are a that is

4 over a certain amount that you have to create a Section

5 2 district based on that?

6 A. Well, I believe that -- I believe yo u probably

7 don't have to because it wasn't done.

8 I believe that we have alleged and we have

9 brought a cause of action claiming that there is the

10 opportunity to do so. And, you know, I think those are

11 issues that are before the court and are, you know,

12 currently yet to be adjudicated.

36:10-38:5

10 Q. Okay. So are you saying that divers ity is

11 what's considered a traditional redistricting principle?



4

12 A. It is to me.

13 Q. Okay. What do you believe are other

14 traditional redistricting principles?

15 A. Well, and, again, this is just my pe rsonal

16 view. I think that I've -- I've been told a n umber of

17 times that, you know, redistricting is about p olitics.

18 It's about political parties, you know, expand ing their

19 control. I think people look at that.

20 I wouldn't argue that with some one who

21 said that protecting incumbents is a redistric ting

22 principle; preserving communities of interest is a

23 redistricting principle; being able to afford

24 communities the opportunity to provide as many elective

25 representatives for their area is also a princ iple.

Page 37

1 Those are just, you know, a few examples.

2 Q. What about the whole county rule, th at's a

3 traditional redistricting principle, correct?

4 A. I believe it's in our constitution, yes.

5 Q. Okay. Do you believe that when new

6 congressional districts are apportioned to a s tate, that

7 those districts must be drawn to reflect the p ercentage

8 of population growth that's attributable to ra cial or

9 ethnic groups?

10 A. I don't know -- I don't understand t he part of

11 the question related to percentages.

12 Q. Okay. So we talked -- you mentioned earlier

13 growth.

14 Do you believe that when new co ngressional



5

15 districts are apportioned to a state that thos e

16 districts must be drawn to reflect the percent age of

17 population growth attributable to racial or et hnic

18 groups?

19 A. I don't -- I don't -- to clarify, ar e you

20 asking me should congressional districts refle ct the

21 percentages of the racial and ethnic diversity of the

22 state?

23 Q. Correct, of growth.

24 A. Of growth.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 38

1 A. So if, I guess, in this instance, if 90

2 percent of the growth was minority growth, the n 90

3 percent of the seats should be minority seats?

4 Q. That's the question.

5 A. Yeah, I don't -- I don't believe tha t.

39:9-18

9 Q. I want to go back to an answer that you

10 gave --

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. -- about reflecting ethnic diversity of the

13 state is a traditional redistricting principle .

14 Have you ever read a case that indicated

15 that?

16 A. I said that's what it meant to me.

17 Q. Okay. Do you have any legal support for that?

18 A. It's just how I feel.

42:20-43:25



6

20 Q. Well, let me -- let me narrow the qu estion. I

21 think you're -- it's fairly general, so...

22 How do you know as a representa tive, how

23 do you make the judgment that a bill was passe d with a

24 racially discriminatory purpose?

25 MR. GOLANDO: Same objection.

Page 43

1 A. Well, I guess one way to know would be if

2 somebody told you their intent was to pass it and gave a

3 justification for it that would, you know, see m to be

4 based on race, that would be one way.

5 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Anything else?

6 A. I think any sort of, you know, schem e or, you

7 know, decision to purposely create districts s o that it

8 has a negative effect based on race and only r ace.

9 Q. Is it your position that if a bill h as a

10 disparate impact on members of a racial minori ty that it

11 is necessarily racially discriminatory?

12 A. Not necessarily.

13 Q. Okay. Legislators can vote for a

14 redistricting plan for any number of reasons, right?

15 A. I think you asked me that, yes.

16 Q. And they can do it because they're s atisfied

17 with their own district?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. They can do it for partisan reasons?

20 A. I would imagine.

21 Q. They can do it to protect incumbents ?

22 A. Yes.



7

23 Q. Those aren't necessarily racially

24 discriminatory purposes, are they?

25 A. No.

51:25-52:4

25 Q. Sure. When the special session bega n in 2013,

Page 52

1 did you view it as a foregone conclusion that the

2 redistricting litigation would continue regard less of

3 what maps would -- would be passed?

4 A. Yes.

75:18-78:24

18 (Martinez-Fischer Exhibit No. 8 marked.)

19 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) I'll go ahead and g ive you

20 Deposition Exhibit No. 8.

21 A. Thank you.

22 Q. Yes, sir.

23 MR. SWEETEN: (Complies)

24 MR. GOLANDO: Thank you, sir.

25 A. Okay. I have 8.

Page 76

1 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Can you read for me

2 starting at the second paragraph -- just can y ou read

3 the second paragraph?

4 A. I'm sorry. What page?

5 Q. On page 4. And this -- and you shou ld look

6 before to see that it's Chairman Darby making the

7 statement, Mr. Chairman on page 3, and I just want a

8 portion of the statement. If you could just r ead that

9 for me.



8

10 A. Sure.

11 “I intend for this committee to actively

12 debate and consider alternatives of legislatio n brought

13 before this committee starting with review of the

14 existing court-ordered interim maps today and tomorrow.

15 I will anticipate additional pieces of legisla tion will

16 be referred to this committee on Monday, June the 3rd,

17 when the House reconvenes. It is my intention to hear

18 these bills prior to the committee making a fi nal

19 determination on any bills referred to it. Th is would

20 include any amendments to the four bills befor e us today

21 or the handful of others that have been filed in the

22 House."

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Should I continue?

25 Q. No, no, no, no, no. You can stop th ere.

Page 77

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. So Chairman Darby expressed an inten tion to

3 actively debate and consider alternatives, cor rect?

4 A. Stated that was his intention, yes.

5 Q. Okay. He anticipated that additiona l pieces

6 of legislation would be referred to the commit tee,

7 correct?


9 Q. He expressed an intention to hear th ese bills

10 prior to the committee making a final determin ation on

11 the bills referred to it, correct?




9

13 Q. And that included amendments, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On page 4, line 21, he says that he wants to

16 make himself available to stakeholders and int erested

17 parties involved in the litigation to hear the ir

18 remedies and specific proposals on how the cou rt-ordered

19 maps can be improved to address constitutional

20 deficiencies.


22 A. You did.

23 Q. Did you personally meet with Chairma n Darby to

24 discuss the subject matter of deficiencies wit h any of

25 the court-ordered plans?

Page 78

1 A. I believe I did.

2 Q. Okay. On approximately how many occ asions?

3 A. Well, we serve on committee together , so I

4 suspect we had conversations at least at every hearing.

5 Q. Okay. And that's fair. You talked to him at

6 committee hearings clearly, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you go to his office or have him go to

9 yours and the two of you discuss these issues outside of

10 the committee context?

11 A. We met, but I don't believe we met i n each

12 other's offices.

13 Q. Okay. You met at some point to disc uss

14 redistricting issues, correct?

15 A. That's correct. And we -- I mean, w e may have



10

16 met -- I mean, I'm thinking here we met in com mittee, we

17 met before and after committee, we've met outs ide the

18 committee.

19 I mean, when I say that I don't recall

20 ever meeting at my office or his office, we ma y have. I

21 just -- you know, a lot of that stuff goes fas t.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know if any other part ies to the

23 litigation met with Chairman Darby?

24 A. I don't know that.

79:11-15

11 Q. Okay. Did Chairman Darby ever give you any

12 indication that he would not meet with you or listen to

13 your concerns?

14 A. Oh, absolutely not. Chairman Darby, he's a

15 fine member.

81:19-82:18

19 Q. Okay. Now, first of all, I want to ask about

20 the resources that are available to you.

21 First of all, you're a member o f MALC,

22 right?


24 Q. Okay. You have counsel that -- Mr. Garza --


Page 82

1 Q. -- who's employed for the -- who has worked on

2 the redistricting case, correct?


4 Q. Mr. Garza at times actually appeared with you

5 on the diocese -- on the committee diocese, co rrect?



11


7 Q. And he was there to advise you on mu ltiple

8 committee hearings, correct?

9 A. That is absolutely correct.

10 Q. And there's no question that you fel t like you

11 had the benefit of counsel with voting rights experience

12 during the entire process?

13 A. MALC has been well-represented, yes.

14 Q. You also had -- the committee also h ad the

15 resources of the Texas Legislative Counsel, ri ght?

16 A. All committees have access to Legisl ative

17 Counsel; all members have access to Legislativ e Counsel,

18 yes.

83:21-84:3

21 Q. They -- Mr. Golando was one of your map

22 drawers, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know if he had -- if he had

25 conversations with members of TLC regarding qu estions on

Page 84

1 maps or data?

2 A. I wouldn't have any reason to think that he

3 didn't.

86:1-87:2

1 Q. Okay. So it's a true statement that after

2 your concerns were expressed about field heari ngs, that

3 field hearings were actually held by the House of

4 Representatives, right?

5 A. In part, yes.



12

6 Q. Okay. Well, there was a field heari ng held in

7 Dallas on June 6, 2013, right?


9 Q. Okay. There was a field hearing hel d here in

10 San Antonio on Monday, June 10th, right?


12 Q. There was a field hearing that was h eld in

13 Houston on June 12th, right?


15 Q. And those field hearings allowed for citizens

16 within those communities to come in and expres s their

17 concerns regarding redistricting, right?

18 A. Those from San Antonio, Houston and Dallas,

19 yes.

20 Q. Okay. So the most -- and Austin, ri ght,

21 because there were certain --

22 A. Yes --

23 Q. -- committee meetings there?

24 A. -- and Austin, yes.

25 Q. So we hit the -- we hit the top four cities in

Page 87

1 the state, right, population wise?

2 A. I'll take your word for it.

89:3-6

3 Q. Other than in redistricting, are you aware of

4 other active pieces of legislation which invol ve field

5 hearings?

6 A. Sure.

89:24-90:18



13

24 Q. Okay. Can you give me examples of w hen that's

25 occurring during session as to other legislati on?

Page 90

1 A. I've served several, so I'm thinking about it.

2 I can't think of anything that comes to

3 mind.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I can think of a number of instances of major

6 pieces of legislation, whether extensive field hearings

7 in anticipation of the legislative act itself. I think

8 the interims are the periods, the official per iods when

9 committees and committee members are afforded the

10 opportunity to conduct those hearings that the y feel are

11 necessary so they can enact public policy duri ng the

12 legislative session.

13 I think that for the constituti on and the

14 rules requiring our active participation in th e

15 legislature suggest that we should remain in A ustin for

16 the period of the session, use the interim to do our

17 fact finding and our investigating so that we can be

18 prepared to act.

94:3-23

3 Q. Did one of the witnesses in the Dall as hearing

4 complain that you were criticizing or beating up on

5 Republican witnesses?

6 A. I think I recall that, yes.

7 Q. Do you believe that your treatment o f opposing

8 witnesses during these committee hearings stif led public

9 input?



14

10 A. I don't know what you mean by "stifl ed public

11 input."

12 Q. Well, do you think it made people le ss likely

13 to come forward with an opposing view to yours ?

14 A. No, I don't think that way. I think that

15 there's a lot of testimony from a kaleidoscope of views,

16 and I think it's oftentimes -- I mean there's limited

17 time, you know. Five minutes, I believe, was the

18 testimony limit that Chairman Darby had establ ished, you

19 know.

20 But I do -- I do expect that if somebody

21 is going to take a position that it be accurat e. If I

22 don't think it's accurate, I'll certainly ask questions

23 to understand the accuracy or not.

95:16-96:3

16 (Martinez-Fischer Exhibit No. 1 1 marked.)

17 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. There's Depo sition

18 Exhibit No. 11.

19 MR. SWEETEN: Here you go, Coun sel

20 (indicating).


22 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) I guess before we l ook into

23 this, do you -- I've sort of lost your last an swer.

24 Do you recall that Mr. Morrison and David

25 Guinn were discussed as being hired as indepen dent

Page 96

1 outside counsel?

2 A. What I recall is they were hired to assist

3 Chairman Darby.



15

97:3-98:4

3 Q. Okay. Now, did Chairman Darby durin g the June

4 6th, 2013 hearing, did he say that it would be proper

5 for these two law professors from Baylor Unive rsity Law

6 School to advise individual committee members?

7 A. I don't know. We didn't -- I certai nly didn't

8 look at them as law school professors. They'v e been

9 around redistricting for a long time. They ha ve

10 represented the Senate; they've represented ot her

11 bodies. You know, I see them as competent vot ing rights

12 attorneys that should be providing counsel to the entire

13 committee and that's why we have them.

14 Q. Well, let me ask you if you would tu rn to page

15 10 of the June 6th, 2010 hearing.

16 A. Okay. I'm sorry. The June 6th?

17 Q. June 6th, '13.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. And that's Exhibit -- if we can iden tify it --

20 A. 11.

21 Q. 11.

22 Now, here Chairman Darby -- and it's in

23 the middle of the page.

24 A. Line 13?

25 Q. Yeah, line 13. He says, quote, "I t hink it's

Page 98

1 going to be proper for them to advise individu al

2 committee members that they have been hired on behalf of

3 Lege Counsel to represent the Chair," right?

4 A. Right.



16

99:6-102:9

6 Q. Okay. And do you know if -- and did n't he

7 state during the committee hearing that he wou ld be

8 amenable to amending the engagement with Mr. M orrison

9 and Guinn or make it clear that they represent ed the

10 committee in the process?

11 A. Yes, I believe it's a reaction to th e pushback

12 he was receiving from the committee and, again , because

13 of the prior statements about making this a co llective

14 process where everybody was working together.

15 And I think so -- you know, at least for

16 me while it may -- I don't know what was in Da rby's

17 head, whether it was a mistake or whether it w as

18 intentional, I certainly know based on the num ber of

19 committees I serve on that have access to coun sel how

20 things are done, and I felt that Mr. Darby mad e a

21 mistake and I think he acknowledged it.

22 Q. Okay. And, in fact, he says on page 10

23 they're representing the chair.

24 And on page 13, line 6 through 9, "It

25 would be my position we'll just either amend t he

Page 100

1 contracts or make it clear to the attorneys th at the

2 attorneys represent the committee in the proce ss."

3 A. All right.

4 Q. This is about process. That's what he said,

5 right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. So he mentions that he's hired couns el, two



17

8 experienced voting rights attorneys, correct?

9 A. For himself, yes.

10 Q. Okay. And he's questioned on that b y

11 Representative Davis and you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he says three pages later on the

14 transcript, "I'll broaden it to the committee, " right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. But that didn't happen, did it?

17 A. Well, I don't -- I don't know if he has the

18 authority to, you know.

19 You know, at this juncture, I m ean, again,

20 we are two steps ahead of the process.

21 I mean, the last discussion on selection

22 of counsel, I was left with the impression tha t it was

23 going to be an engaging dialogue and agreement between

24 the committee leadership, the chair and the vi ce-chair,

25 and that didn't happen.

Page 101

1 And I think anything that's a d erivative

2 of what Chairman Darby did thereafter is an ex ercise of

3 acting, you know, in bad faith.

4 And, of course, it could have b een a

5 mistake and it could have been intentional. I don't

6 know what it is. That's a question for Mr. Da rby.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. But the fact of the matter is it's d ifficult

9 to hit the reset button, you know, once the da mage has

10 been done considering that this is in the midd le of a



18

11 first public hearing of an extensive record on a very,

12 very controversial subject matter.

13 Q. So if he hits the reset button three pages

14 later in the transcript, you and Representativ e Davis

15 don't want any part of that?

16 A. Well, I would ask him why didn't he think of

17 this before engaging the lawyers for himself.

18 I mean, I just think -- I mean, this is

19 happening in real time. The transcript you're reading

20 is a live committee hearing. This is happenin g on the

21 fly.

22 I mean, for the amount of time we spent

23 with Chairman Darby before we even convened th ere wasn't

24 a mention of this.

25 You know, you turn around and y ou ask, you

Page 102

1 know, Frank Battle, the Speaker's General Coun sel, he

2 doesn't know what's going on.

3 This is after a committee heari ng where we

4 requested to hear from the governor's office; we

5 requested to hear from the attorney general's office; we

6 asked to hear and have extensive briefing from Lege

7 Counsel as to the position of this litigation and this

8 case, this bill, and all the while, you know, those

9 requests were going unanswered.

103:9-104:3

9 Q. Okay. Are you indicating now that yo u did not

10 want their services as counsel?

11 A. No, I've never made that representat ion.



19

12 Q. Okay. Well, my question is, is that your

13 position, that you did not want them?

14 A. It was my position that the committe e should

15 have been afforded counsel whether it be Mr. G uinn,

16 Mr. Morrison or anybody else, for that matter.

17 The objection I had was proceed ing without

18 one and then arriving at the fact that committ ee counsel

19 had been hired, but specifically to provide le gal

20 counsel to the chair.

21 And then, you know, there was s ubsequent

22 conversations about whether his -- whether the lawyers'

23 roles could be expanded. But I think at that juncture

24 it sort of, you know, left a bitter taste in m any

25 members' mouth as to whether there was going t o be good

Page 104

1 faith in the selection of a counsel that's goi ng to be

2 able to address the concerns of the entire com mittee and

3 not just the chairman.

104:19-105:14

19 Q. So when Chairman Darby -- and we wen t over the

20 portions of the transcript -- when he said, "I 'll make

21 them available to the committee" --

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. -- you demurred; is that correct?

24 A. I don't know if I did. We can go to the

25 transcript.

Page 105

1 I said, you know, I appreciate -- I

2 appreciated that indulgence, but it still left me with



20

3 the impression that the -- that the chairman - - out of

4 the chairman's acquiescence was going to allow us to

5 have access to, quote-unquote, "his lawyers."

6 In other words, I will give my lawyers

7 permission to work with you, but then at the e nd of the

8 day they're still Chairman Darby's lawyers.

9 What I wanted was an independen t committee

10 counsel. What I wanted was an independent map maker who

11 drew maps for the committee. I wanted to be a fforded

12 the same privileges that members of the redist ricting

13 committee had in 2011 since we were certainly doing the

14 same exercise.

107:23-110:14

23 Q. And so -- so -- and I think you indi cated that

24 the committee came to a halt based on some dis cussion of

25 transcripts.

Page 108

1 So did you have an objection to the

2 transcripts being -- that transcripts were mad e of the

3 committee?

4 A. I had -- insofar as the transcripts were

5 concerned, I wanted to make sure, No. 1, they were going

6 to be complete and accurate and they were goin g to be

7 made available to anybody who requested them.

8 But, no, the overarching object ion was to

9 the fact that we were told that the attorney g eneral's

10 office was not going to be engaging in dialogu e with us;

11 but, yet, felt like it was okay to show up to a public

12 hearing and record the proceedings despite the fact that



21

13 they were already recorded by the Texas House, and it

14 just sort of was a little peculiar.

15 Q. Okay. So how are the committee -- h ow were

16 the committee hearings recorded by the House?

17 A. I believe you would have to ask Hous e

18 audio/video, but there -- there are records th at reflect

19 that, you know, there are video transcripts an d there

20 are audio transcripts.

21 Q. Okay. And that's what I'm asking. There were

22 audio transcripts taken of the hearings, corre ct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Now, did you -- did you under stand that

25 the person that was -- that was transcribing w hat was

Page 109

1 going on at the committee hearings was a certi fied court

2 reporter?

3 A. I believe she said that she was, yes .

4 Q. Okay. And so my question is -- and I

5 understand you've got this other objection -- we can

6 talk about that in a minute --

7 A. Sure.

8 Q. -- but I'm referring to transcripts.

9 Was there a specific problem wi th

10 transcripts being made of the committee hearin gs?

11 A. Well, it just seems to me that -- th at going

12 through the preparation to have a court report er in a

13 room tells me somebody is preparing for litiga tion.

14 And if we're engaging in public policy

15 deliberations to draw a map and have a resolut ion and if



22

16 that's the expectation and requirement of me, then

17 perhaps, you know, I would expect those also i nvolved in

18 this dialogue and discussion to be working on public

19 policy, not preparing a record to use in a cou rtroom.

20 And so I just felt that it was sort of --

21 I wanted to know the basis as to why we would need a

22 written court reporter transcript if we were a dopting

23 and negotiating public policy because that doe sn't

24 happen often in the public policy room.

25 Q. Do you know if in the past litigatio n in 2011

Page 110

1 if transcripts were requested by the Departmen t of

2 Justice?


4 Q. Okay. Would that surprise you that they

5 requested those?

6 A. No, it wouldn't.

7 Q. Would that answer -- I mean, obvious ly during

8 the time that the committee was having discuss ion,

9 the -- any -- you understood that Section 5 ex isted,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Section 5 required preclearance with the

13 Department of Justice, right?

14 A. Yes, it did.

112:2 -113:2

2 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) You yourself had al ready made

3 statements that litigation was likely. You we nt over

4 those, right?



23

5 A. In the regular session in March, yes .

6 Q. Okay. You made them in committee he aring?

7 A. I did. If we were adopting interim maps that

8 were already subject of litigation, that litig ation was

9 a foregone conclusion, yes.

10 Q. You knew of the existence of Section 5?

11 A. Of course.

12 Q. There was ongoing litigation in San Antonio --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- regarding the '11 redistricting p lans,

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Okay. You were provided copies of t he

18 transcripts of those committee hearings at a l ater time?

19 A. Yes, only after I requested them. T hey

20 weren't offered gratuitously by anyone until w e were

21 able to speak to representatives from the atto rney

22 general's office. You might have been one of them, I'm

23 not sure.

24 But the specific representation s that were

25 made were that the electronic format of those

Page 113

1 transcripts would be produced to the committee and to

2 anybody who requested them.

121:6-23

6 Q. Did you have access to Red Apple sof tware?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you use it during the regular 20 13 session

9 or special session?



24

10 A. I used it in the special session.

11 Q. Okay. Did you have access to Red Ap ple before

12 the 83rd session?

13 A. Would that be -- the 83rd being the 2013

14 session?

15 Q. 83rd is the '13 session, yes?

16 A. Yes, of course I had access to it.

17 Q. Members of the MALC staff have acces s to that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. And I understand your chief o f staff,

20 Mr. Golando, had access to it?

21 A. He works for me, yes.

22 Q. He also -- does he also work for MAL C?

23 A. He does.

122:15-22

15 Q. Do you believe that you were a full

16 participant in the process?

17 A. I don't believe the process was full , but what

18 process we did have I was allowed to participa te in.

19 Q. Did any members tell you they felt - - did

20 anyone suggest to you that they felt excluded from the

21 process?


123:20-124:5

20 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) I'm going to hand y ou what we

21 will mark as Exhibit No. 12.


23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.




25

25 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right.

Page 124

1 (Martinez-Fischer Exhibit Nos. 13 and 14

2 marked.)

3 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right. I'm als o going to

4 hand you Exhibit 13 and 14.

5 A. Okay. Thank you.

124:23-128:16

23 Q. Do you believe H309 was a legal map?

24 A. I believe H309 was an interim map, y es.

25 Q. Okay. My question was do you believ e it to be

Page 125

1 a legal map?

2 A. Could you help me understand what a "legal

3 map" means?

4 Q. Did it comply with the Constitution and the

5 Voting Rights Acts?

6 A. It's my general understanding that

7 court-ordered maps are not required to comply or be

8 cleared by the Voting Rights Act.

9 I understand if this is the map produced

10 by the San Antonio District Court. I understo od it to

11 be an interim map that was an incomplete map t hat did

12 not address all the legal concerns presented b y the

13 litigants, but was a map for the purpose of th e 2012

14 election.

15 So a legal temporary map, I'm w illing to

16 concede.

17 Q. Okay. Do you believe that the judge s who



26

18 created this -- who created this map intended to

19 discriminate on the basis of race when it was adopted?

20 A. I have no basis to judge.

21 Q. You don't know one way or the other?

22 A. I don't -- I don't have any reason t o believe

23 that these maps are not fair judicial maps.

24 Q. And this map was used for the 2012 e lection.

25 These are the districts, correct?

Page 126

1 A. I believe so.

2 Q. Did you believe that H309 which -- a nd there

3 were amendments that were added to it during t he special

4 session, do you believe that H358, which is ve ry similar

5 to H309, was legal when the legislature passed it?

6 A. I don't -- I'm still having difficul ty

7 understanding the basis by which it's legal.

8 Q. Do you believe that it complied with the Texas

9 law, the Federal law, the Constitution when it was

10 passed?

11 A. I believe that the map passed by the 2013

12 legislature in special session was an augmente d interim

13 map that has some legal basis to it, but yet i ncomplete

14 in terms of addressing all of the other legal challenges

15 that have been presented.

16 Q. So -- and that's really a yes/no que stion.

17 Do you believe H358 when passed by the

18 legislature was a legal map? It complied with the

19 Constitution, Federal law or State law?

20 A. I don't know if it complies with the



27

21 Constitution or Federal law. I'm not a legal expert.

22 I believe that if it's a -- if it's a

23 reflection of an interim map, I believe that t he 2013

24 map that was passed in special session is an a ugmented

25 interim map that may be illegal but, yet, inco mplete

Page 127

1 that fails to address the legal challenges tha t have

2 presented in Federal court.

3 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the augme nted

4 portion of it, the five amendments that were a ccepted

5 rendered H309 illegal?

6 A. I think that the interim map as pres ented and

7 introduced failed to address challenges that h ave been

8 brought in Federal court in San Antonio, and I felt an

9 adoption of an interim map would not fully add ress the

10 legal concerns that had been raised and not ad judicated

11 by the court.

12 Q. I'm unclear because you said you did n't know

13 whether it was -- H358 was a legal map and com plied with

14 the Constitution, Federal law or State law. N ow you're

15 saying that you think it didn't.

16 A. Well, I think it might have somethin g to do

17 with the fact that it's been asked a couple of different

18 ways.

19 I don't know if it's constituti onal. I'm

20 not a constitutional expert. I don't know if it's legal

21 and comports with the Voting Rights Act becaus e I'm not

22 a legal voting rights attorney.

23 We have voting rights attorneys that have



28

24 opinions on that, and they will give me their advice and

25 I'll make -- I will listen to that advice.

Page 128

1 But as far as I know, if it was an interim

2 map, I understood the interim map to only be a temporary

3 map that failed to address legal challenges th at were

4 presented by parties including our caucus.

5 And so to speak any derivative of that map

6 that failed to address Section 2 claims that w e have

7 presented to the court have yet to be determin ed, I

8 would say that the map while it could be legal , it could

9 also be incomplete.

10 Q. Okay. My question is, is H358 legal or

11 illegal?

12 MR. GARZA: Objection; argument ative.

13 It's been answered.

14 A. I've said that I don't know.

15 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay.

16 A. I'm not qualified to give that opini on.

128:24-129:2

24 Q. Okay. Let me ask a follow-up questi on. Do

25 you -- do you think that it is unlawful for el ections in

Page 129

1 November of 2014 to be run under H -- the map H309?

2 A. Not if a court ordered them.

129:6-7

6 (Martinez-Fischer Exhibit No. 15, 16, 17

7 and 18 marked.)



29

129:23-130:12

23 Q. First of all, Exhibit No. 16 is a ma p of plan

24 H321, which is a map that you -- that you subm itted,

25 correct?

Page 130

1 A. I have that as 15, yeah.

2 Q. I'm sorry. 15. Is that what -- yea h, 15.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Exhibit 16 is the plan H321 is the R ed-116

5 report from legislative counsel, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Exhibit 17 is Plan H321, the Red-119 report

8 from that.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And then what is Plan -- what is Exh ibit No.

11 18?

12 A. 18 looks like briefing points or dat a points.

132:17-134:5

17 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. So I'm refer ring to

18 Exhibit No. 13.

19 A. Okay. 13, you want me to measure th at to --

20 Q. Yeah, I want you to -- on 13 -- HD-8 1 --

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. -- has an Anglo CVAP majority of 53. 6.

23 A. Okay. Yes, I see that.

24 Q. And your Plan H321 changes that to a 51.7

25 HCVAP; is that right?

Page 133

1 MR. GARZA: That would be in Ex hibit 17.



30

2 MR. SWEETEN: Correct.

3 A. 16. Is it 16 or 17?

4 MR. BITTERS: 16.

5 A. Okay. Exhibit 16, District 81, does what,

6 51.7 Hispanic CVAP?

7 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Right.

8 A. Yes, I see that.

9 Q. So the change makes it a -- it chang es it from

10 53.6 ACVAP to 51.7 HCVAP, right?

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. And it cuts -- your plan cuts Midlan d and

13 Ector County in order to create the HCVAP majo rity

14 district there, correct?

15 A. Yes, sir, I think so, yes.

16 Q. Now, when you submitted these plans did you

17 believe that these -- was it your contention t hat these

18 county cuts were legally required?

19 A. I believe when I submitted these map s, I

20 submitted them to demonstrate what is possible .

21 That if there was a desire to c reate a

22 minority opportunity in West Texas that that c ould be

23 done, and this was an example of how you could do it.

24 Q. Okay. And my question was, was it y our

25 impression and your contention that these were legally

Page 134

1 required under the Voting Rights Act?

2 A. I don't think that that entered into my head

3 in terms of whether they're legally sufficient . That I

4 would defer to my caucus counsel on as they ad vocated



31

5 those positions.

138:20-139:13

20 Q. Okay. Did you -- let me ask you: O n 18, did

21 you file Exhibit 18? Was that filed as part o f the

22 amendment?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What is 18?

25 A. It's a data point.

Page 139

1 Q. Okay. Is it part of the support for the

2 creation of H321?

3 A. It might have been in my author's pa cket; it

4 might have been my data points to argue my ame ndment,

5 but those were contained in my -- my briefing documents.

6 Q. Did you include any RPVA analysis in your

7 author's packet?

8 A. I don't know what RPVA is.

9 Q. Racially polarized voting analysis?

10 A. Yeah, I didn't -- I didn't do any -- I didn't

11 personally perform or have that information, n o.

12 Q. Had you reviewed any?

13 A. No.

140:8-141:4

8 Q. Did you reference in your discussion s

9 regarding H321 evidence of voter cohesion that you

10 believed evidence and requirement of creating HD-81 that

11 was present in H321?

12 A. I don't think so, but I'd be happy t o look at

13 the transcript if there's a transcript submiss ion.



32

14 Q. Okay. But your recollection is that you don't

15 recall?

16 A. I don't recall, no.

17 Q. Did you submit any evidence in your -- or did

18 you discuss when you presented H321 any eviden ce of why

19 voting is a block in HD-81?


21 Q. Okay. Were there totality of the

22 circumstances factors that you provided in tha t dialogue

23 in your presentation regarding H321?


25 Q. Did you assess yourself that HD-81 a s drawn in

Page 141

1 plan H321 was required by Section 2 of the Vot ing Rights

2 Act before you offered it as an amendment?

3 A. Yeah. I don't think I have that leg al

4 foundation to make those conclusions.

141:6-25

6 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Let's talk about HD -54, which

7 is Bell County, that's in Plan H321.

8 A. Okay. 321, correct?

9 Q. Correct.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. Now, if you look at Exhibit No. 18, I believe

12 Bell County is on the bottom of that page.

13 A. Let me just find the exhibit. Oh, y es, it is.

14 Okay.

15 Q. And you indicate that H321 makes cha nges to



33

16 Bell County for the following reasons. One yo u say to

17 eliminate the fracturing of the African-Americ an

18 community in Killeen, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The second was to create a Section 2 district

21 in Bell County which a majority -- in which a majority

22 minority district, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And 3 is to keep Killeen whole?

25 A. Yes.

142:13-20

13 Q. Can you tell me what was fractured i n Killeen,

14 right now as you're sitting here?

15 A. Well, I think according to what's he re is it

16 was the fracturing of the African-American com munity in

17 Killeen.

18 Q. Okay. So what specific part of the

19 African-American community was fractured, if y ou know?

20 A. I don't know.

145:6-17

6 Q. And in Plan H321, that Lampasas Coun ty in what

7 was 54 is now 55, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So Lampasas is contained in D istrict

10 HD-55 which extends farther east in Bell Count y, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And wouldn't you agree that - - well,

13 let me just ask this: Do you know if your pla n -- what

14 its effect would be on Harker Heights?



34

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Okay. Do you know if it cut Harker Heights?

17 A. I don't know.

147:22-148:19

22 Q. Okay. So let me ask you: Is it you r

23 contention in submitting this statewide plan t hat the --

24 that this is a -- that what you have offered i n HD-54

25 and HD-55, that these are required districts u nder

Page 148

1 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act?

2 A. No, I don't believe I've said that.

3 Q. Is it your contention that the state must draw

4 coalition districts under the Voting Rights Ac t?

5 A. I don't know that they should.

6 Q. Okay. Did you -- when you discussed Plan

7 H321, did you discuss whether or not the minor ity groups

8 in Bell County are politically cohesive?

9 A. When I discussed it?

10 Q. On the floor --

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. -- Plan H321.

13 A. Well, I don't -- I don't specificall y recall,

14 but I have my notes here.

15 Q. Okay. Do you -- do you have evidenc e to

16 support that those -- that the -- that there i s cohesion

17 among the various minority groups in Bell Coun ty?

18 A. I don't believe I offered any eviden ce of that

19 on the floor of the House.

149:23-150:12



35

23 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Before we le ave Plan

24 H321, let me ask you: Did your proposal which impacted

25 HD-81, did it split Midland and Odessa?

Page 150

1 A. For District 81?

2 Q. Correct.

3 A. I see Midland County. I'm looking f or Ector

4 County.

5 Do you -- do you mind assisting me?

6 Q. I can show you. Ector County, 80 --

7 A. Yeah, here's Midland (indicating).

8 Q. Right there (indicating).

9 A. This is Ector next to it, right?

10 Q. Yeah.

11 A. Okay. Yes, there seems to be a spli t in those

12 counties between 81 and 82.

151:3-152:15

3 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Representati ve

4 Martinez-Fischer, we're back on the record aft er the

5 break.

6 Let me ask you: Do you know ho w many

7 amendments were adopted by the House in passin g H358 in

8 the special session of 2013?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Do you recall any of the adop ted

11 amendment -- do you know who any of the amendm ent

12 authors were?

13 A. On amendments?

14 Q. Correct.



36

15 A. In general? I authored some amendme nts.

16 Q. How about the adopted amendment auth ors?

17 A. No, I'm not familiar.

18 Q. Okay. Do you know if Representative Anchia

19 had an amendment that was accepted?

20 A. I don't -- I don't know that.

21 Q. Okay. Do you know if Representative Pena,

22 Raymond Pena -- Richard --

23 A. Raymond Pena.

24 Q. Raymond?

25 A. Yes.

Page 152

1 Q. -- thank you -- had any -- whether h e had an

2 adopted amendment that passed?

3 A. I don't. I didn't know that.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Or not that I didn't know that. I j ust don't

6 remember it.

7 Q. Representative Vo, do you recall?

8 A. I recall Representative Vo having an amendment

9 that wasn't adopted at the committee level. I didn't

10 know if he offered one on the floor.

11 Q. Do you know if -- you can't name the other

12 ones, correct?

13 A. Of adopted?

14 Q. Correct.

15 A. I just don't remember.

154:9-156:8

9 Q. I want to hand you what we've marked as the --



37

10 oh, let me just ask you.

11 Do you believe that House Bill 358 was

12 passed with an intentionally discriminatory pu rpose?

13 A. I don't know that it was.

14 Q. Okay. Is there anyone on this list of yeas

15 who you can point to that you believe voted fo r that for

16 an intentionally discriminatory purpose?

17 A. Well, I think that there are people who voted

18 for this map that have involved themselves in some

19 concerning circumstances throughout the redist ricting

20 dating back to 2011.

21 Q. Okay. Now, that's one comment. But my

22 question is can you identify anyone who voted for SB 3

23 that you believe had an intentionally discrimi natory

24 purpose in doing so?

25 A. Right, right. I just don't have the basis to

Page 155

1 make that --

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. -- determination.

4 Q. Okay. I want to go back to some que stions I

5 had when we were looking at H321 about evidenc e of

6 cohesion in HD-81, evidence of cohesion in HD- 54.

7 I want to ask you: As to other portions

8 of the map that H321 changed, did you offer an y sort of

9 evidence of cohesion to the legislature when y ou were

10 discussing that map on the floor?

11 A. You know, if I did it's reflected in the

12 transcript.



38

13 Q. Had you reviewed any specific eviden ce of

14 cohesion that you were able to identify prior to

15 discussing -- prior to offering or discussing H321 on

16 the floor of the House?


18 Q. The same question as to white bloc v oting: Do

19 you recall offering any evidence or reviewing any sort

20 of evidence of white bloc voting as to any of the areas

21 where -- that your map H321 changed either on the floor

22 or prior -- prior to the introduction of H321?

23 A. Could you please repeat the question ?

24 Q. Okay. Had you reviewed any evidence -- I'll

25 just ask it this way: Had you reviewed any ev idence

Page 156

1 related to white bloc voting as to any of the other

2 areas that we haven't discussed on H321 prior to you

3 submitting it as an amendment?


5 Q. Okay. And with respect to whether y ou offered

6 any evidence of that on the floor, you don't k now one

7 way or the other?

8 A. Other than reviewing the transcript.

163:20-164:21

20 Q. Okay. I want to talk briefly about the

21 Congressional -- 2013 Congressional map.

22 I guess we'll start by showing you Exhibit

23 No. 22, which is Plan C235.


25 A. Thank you.



39

Page 164

1 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Sure. And you unde rstand

2 this is the map that was passed by the court, right?


4 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Or that was impleme nted by

5 the Federal District Court in San Antonio; is that

6 correct?

7 A. This is the interim map.

8 Q. What was your opinion regarding the map when

9 it was adopted by the court?

10 A. I think generally I understood all m aps put

11 into place by the United States District Court were

12 interim maps only for the 2012 election and th at they

13 did not address the concerns presented by the litigants

14 and that matter was pending before the Court.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you say that the court d idn't

16 address matters that were stated by the litiga nts; is

17 that right?

18 A. That's my understanding, yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, how did you come to that

20 understanding?

21 A. I read the court order.

165:1-3

1 Q. Okay. Are you testifying that the c ourt was

2 unaware of a particular claim by any of the --

3 A. Absolutely not.

167:9-168:1

9 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any factual e vidence

10 that the court did not have when they adopted the



40

11 interim maps?

12 A. Just what's in the order and in the opinion of

13 the court.

14 Q. Okay. What defects that you believe existed

15 in the Congressional plan were not addressed i n Plan

16 C235?

17 A. I don't know if I would characterize them as

18 defects. I don't think I ever have.

19 Q. What issues do you believe the court did not

20 address in creating the interim plans of C235?

21 A. Well, I'm relying on the court order of

22 February 28th, 2012, that I expressed in Exhib it 7 that

23 said that the maps were not a final ruling on the merits

24 of any claims asserted and were preliminary an d

25 temporary created for the exigent circumstance s of the

Page 168

1 2012 elections.

168:8-14

8 Q. So you don't know that from the orde r that the

9 court examined the Section 2 claims?


11 Q. Okay. Do you know from the court or der

12 whether the court examined the Section 5 claim s in a not

13 insubstantial standard?

14 A. I'm not aware.

176:12-177:7

12 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right. The Hou se and

13 Senate Redistricting Committees held field hea rings in

14 2010 before the start of the 82nd session, rig ht?



41

15 MR. GARZA: Objection; asked an d answered

16 both at this deposition and at trial.

17 MR. SWEETEN: Well, I don't kno w that

18 that's accurate. I don't know that field hear ings have

19 been discussed with the representative.

20 MR. GARZA: Yeah, they certainl y were.

21 I know it's been a long deposit ion,

22 Mr. Sweeten, but they were.

23 MR. SWEETEN: Okay. And certai nly you're

24 entitled to make your objection. I'm going to ask my

25 question of the representative.

Page 177

1 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Do you know how man y field

2 hearings were held?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know where in the stat e those

5 were held?

6 MR. GARZA: Same objection.

7 A. No, I don't.

178:23-181:1

23 Q. Okay. Did you consider the 2003 red istricting

24 process to be a normal process?

25 A. I don't believe it was.

Page 179

1 Q. What about the 2001?

2 A. I don't believe it was normal, eithe r.

3 Q. Okay. What about 2011, was it a nor mal

4 redistricting session?

5 A. No, it wasn't.



42

6 Q. '13?

7 A. We didn't have one in the regular se ssion.

8 Q. It was a special session redistricti ng?

9 A. It's the first time I've ever seen

10 redistricting in a special session.

11 Q. Okay. None of them were -- none of them have

12 you characterized as normal, correct?

13 A. Well, that's my answer. I think the re are

14 varying degrees of explanation as to the diffe rences

15 between them; but, yes, redistricting is a ver y

16 difficult concept.

17 Q. Did you have access to redistricting software

18 during the 2011 session?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did Mr. -- was Mr. Golando, was he a lso your

21 chief of staff at that time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was he -- was he involved in the map drawing

24 efforts during that redistricting session?

25 A. In 2011?

Page 180

1 Q. Correct.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have access to Red Apple dur ing that

4 session?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Did you work with the Texas L egislative

7 Counsel during the 2011 session regarding redi stricting

8 issues?



43

9 MR. GARZA: Objection. Again - - and if I

10 could have your courtesy of running -- of havi ng a

11 running objection to all questions that have a lready

12 been covered in trial.

13 MR. SWEETEN: I'll agree to a r unning

14 objection.

15 MR. GARZA: I appreciate it.

16 MR. SWEETEN: We'll discuss whe n we think

17 it's over.

18 MR. GARZA: All right. That's right.

19 A. I'm sorry. Mr. Sweeten, the questio n again.

20 MR. SWEETEN: I'm going to have to ask

21 her to ask it.

22 (Record read.)

23 A. I personally did not.

24 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Did Mr. Gola ndo, to

25 your knowledge?

Page 181

1 A. To my knowledge, I think he did.

181:10-184:10

10 Q. With respect to Chairman Solomons an d his

11 staff, who did you talk to in his staff during the

12 redistricting session?

13 A. I didn't talk to his staff.

14 Q. Okay. Did you work with -- did you speak to

15 Chairman Solomons during the redistricting pro cess?


17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Well, I mean -- pardon me. I mean, we



44

19 debated, if that constitutes having a conversa tion; but

20 we weren't engaged in working through redistri cting

21 together.


23 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. Here's Exhib it No. 24.

24 Can you take a look at that and let me know wh at that

25 document is?

Page 182

1 A. It looks like it's a memo regarding the State

2 Board of Education and redistricting and acces s to

3 resources by Chairman Solomons.

4 Q. It's directed to all the members of the 82nd

5 House of Representatives, correct?


7 Q. And I just want to focus your attent ion on the

8 final paragraph.

9 He says, "Secondly, if you have questions

10 about the requirements of the Federal Voting R ights Act,

11 the Texas Constitution or about a portion of t he voters,

12 please recognize you have several resources av ailable to

13 assist you."


15 A. You did.

16 Q. "The legislative process by which th ese

17 districts are redistricted in Texas, the legal

18 requirements for districts, the timeline for t he

19 redistricting process as well as recent public ations and

20 maps may be found at Texas Legislative Counsel 's

21 website," correct?



45

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. He offered later in the paragraph fo r you

24 to -- for members to contact the legal divisio n of the

25 Texas Legislative Counsel, correct?

Page 183

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. He offered assistance with Red Apple , and he

3 indicated that he would do his best to assist you and

4 your staff with any questions which cannot be answered

5 in one of those resources, right?


7 Q. Were any of these resources listed h ere not

8 available to you?


10 Q. Okay. The -- did you talk -- I want to ask

11 you about Gerardo Interiano. Do you know him?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Do you understand Interiano's positi on -- what

14 did you understand it to be during the 2011


16 A. Well, I didn't know that -- I didn't know what

17 he did, and I knew that he was a redistricting counsel,

18 but I could never understand whether he was de tailed to

19 the Speaker of the House or was he detailed to the

20 committee, and he seemed to work in both envir onments.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Sort of a shared resource.

23 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you ever speak with

24 Mr. Interiano about the House plan?



46

25 A. I spoke to Mr. Interiano from what m y memory

Page 184

1 can recall about the Bexar County plan.

2 Q. Okay. And he worked -- he was a res ource that

3 was available to work with the Bexar County de legation,

4 correct?

5 A. He was on-hand, although the delegat ion

6 believes that the redistricting matters reside with the

7 membership. And so I think he might have been

8 peripherally involved, but not in direct discu ssions

9 with the members of the delegation, from what I

10 remember.

198:21-199:14

21 Q. Okay. Speaker Straus: During the 2 011

22 session, did you speak with Speaker Straus abo ut

23 redistricting?

24 A. You know, I think the answer would b e yes.

25 To any degree of substance, I'm not -- I'm



47

Page 199

1 not having any recall on that.

2 We certainly worked together fo r the Bexar

3 County delegation map. I'm sure as a member o f

4 Republican leadership and me being a member of the

5 Democratic leadership, I'm sure we had the occ asion to

6 have discussions.

7 Q. Do you believe that you could have t alked to

8 Speaker Straus or his staff about any of the p lans, any

9 of the redistricting plans during the '11 sess ion?

10 A. I mean, there was no barrier for us to

11 communicate. I don't think that I was in a po sition to

12 persuade him to make alternative choices.

13 Q. Was his door open to any member?

14 A. Generally, yeah. Generally his door was open.

201:20


202:9-18

9 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Okay. What's that document?

10 And the -- say the exhibit number, if you woul d.

11 A. Sure. 26 is the House Journal for t he 64th

12 day of the session dated April 28th, 2011.

13 Exhibit 27 is the 65th day Jour nal of the

14 82nd legislative session. I don't see a date on it.

15 Q. Okay. Now, listed on the bottom of this

16 document is those who voted for House 150. 92 yeas, 54

17 nays. This redistricting bill passed, correct ?

18 A. Exhibit 26, yes.

203:11-23



48

11 Q. All right. I want you with the blue pen that

12 you have, I want you on Exhibit No. 26 to circ le the

13 names of the individuals that you believe inte ntionally

14 discriminated in voting for HB-150 in 2011.

15 A. And I won't be able to do that becau se I

16 didn't say that I believe that there are membe rs who

17 intentionally discriminate.

18 I said I believe there are memb ers who

19 were associated in conversations and communica tions that

20 would give me cause for concern because they h ad

21 knowledge of certain information that would be , you

22 know, in my view discriminatory in terms of -- of the

23 substance of the communications.

211:4-19

4 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right. So now we've

5 corrected the misnumbering.

6 Exhibit 27 is what you identifi ed as being

7 Exhibit 28, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this is the Senate vote on the H ouse bill

10 150 in 2011, correct?


12 Q. Okay. And in it you have -- it pass ed 24 to

13 7, correct?


15 Q. And the same question with respect t o these

16 individuals. Are you aware of any of these in dividuals

17 who voted for this bill in an effort to intent ionally

18 discriminate against Latinos or African-Americ ans?



49

19 A. I'm not aware.

212:14-21

14 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) We had asked -- I h ad asked

15 you a little bit about Gerardo Interiano.

16 Do you believe that Mr. Interia no was

17 acting in a manner to intentionally discrimina te against

18 Latinos or African-Americans?

19 A. I don't -- I don't know Mr. Interian o.

20 Q. Same with Ryan Downton?

21 A. I don't know Mr. Downton.

22 Q. Okay.

231:4-18

4 Q. Okay. The -- I want to ask you a fe w

5 questions about your MALC membership. What is your

6 current position?

7 A. I'm still the chairman.

8 Q. Okay. And you've been the chairman since

9 2008, right?

10 A. The end of 2008. I think that we el ect after

11 the November election, so just the eve of the '09

12 session.

13 Q. Okay. By my count there are 40 memb ers of

14 MALC, including the members and the executive committee.

15 Does that sound right?

16 A. We might have 41 representatives. S o, yeah,

17 Israel is eligible to become a member and we a re

18 inviting her to join.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations MENENDEZ, JOSE

1

State Defendants’


Jose Menendez



2

7:5-7

Q. All right. Representative Menendez, if yo u

6 could please state your full name for the reco rd?

7 A. Jose Antonio Menendez.

16:10-12

10 Q. Okay. What district do you currently

11 represent?

12 A. 124.

30:19-31:5

19 Q. Okay. In the interest of efficiency are you - -

20 do you -- do you have knowledge of issues relate d to

21 redistricting outside of Bexar County or would y ou --

22 A. Not really, no.

23 Q. -- just like to focus on -- more on Bexar

24 County?

25 A. Yeah. I don't really -- I barely – I

Page 31

1 barely -- I -- I kind of focus on my district.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I -- I -- you know, I -- I -- I don't really

4 get into the whole -- I -- I'm not a fan of

5 redistricting.

31:21-33:2

21 Q. Okay. I'm going to skip along. I'd like to



3

22 talk about the 2011 House redistricting proces s. Did

23 Bexar County -- how did the Bexar County House

24 delegation map come about?

25 A. How did our map come about? That was when –

Page 32

1 let's see. That's three years ago?

2 Q. Uh-huh.

3 A. What's -- who was the chairman in that whe n

4 that was -- Solomons, was that?

5 Q. I think so.

6 A. Oh, let's think. Well, there was an attem pt

7 for us all trying to get together and see if w e could

8 agree, you know, get together with your neighb ors and

9 see if you could agree on. And I thought we - - I

10 think -- you know, if I recall, I don't have g reat

11 recollection, that we had gotten there and the n it

12 appears that, if I remember correctly, at the last

13 minute someone was unhappy because I think the y -- the

14 one thing I -- I guess I -- there was some dis pute on --

15 on district -- John Garza's district.

16 He was afraid that -- that I think it -- it

17 might have too many people who might not vote for him in

18 a re-election, and -- and -- if I recall corre ctly, but

19 I don't have a -- my fuzzy -- my recollection is fuzzy,

20 but other than -- you know, we tried to work together.



4

21 Q. Okay. Do you -- did you have any conversation s

22 with people about that dispute that you're remem bering?

23 A. No. I didn't talk about it. That's his

24 problem there. It's not mine.

25 Q. Okay. So you weren't involved in negotiating

Page 33

1 the boundaries --

2 A. No.

33:20-34:7

20 Q. Okay. Do you remember if those changes were

21 made in an informal amendment or was that before the

22 plan was --

23 A. I don't remember --

24 Q. -- was --

25 A. -- that.

Page 34

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I think the one conversation I -- I vaguel y

3 remember with Solomons is he was saying someth ing about

4 he wanted it all worked out before it got to t he floor.

5 Q. Okay. And is your recollection that

6 San Antonio was worked out before it got to th e floor?

7 A. I don't remember. I think it may have bee n.

45:21-46:8

21 Q. Do you -- do you feel like the vote was



5

22 predominantly motivated by discrimination or w as it

23 predominantly motivated by partisanship?

24 A. I think predominantly by partisanship and the

25 desire to come back.

Page 46

1 Q. What do you mean "come back"?

2 A. To get re-elected. To get re-elected.

3 Q. Oh, okay.

4 A. So some people who voted for it may not ha ve --

5 some people were doing it because they were to ld they

6 had to as a party stay together, and some peop le did it

7 because they felt they were given the best dis trict to

8 get re-elected in.

62:12-20

12 Q. Okay. The same question for the 2011 Hous e

13 map. Are you aware of any instances or suspec t any

14 instances where partisanship or a desire to be

15 re-elected played out in the map?

16 A. I think it was pretty -- it was -- I think

17 there was a desire on behalf of the state repr esentative

18 from 117 to keep his job and -- and to get ele cted

19 and -- and to try to help make his district a little

20 more safe for him.

83:6-84:5

6 Q. Okay. Do you have any facts to reflect th at



6

7 race was a factor in drawing the San Antonio m ap in

8 2011?

9 A. No. I don't have any facts to reflect it.

10 Q. Do you have any suspicions that it was dra wn

11 that way?

12 A. In 2011?

13 Q. Uh-huh.

14 A. My recollection is that John Garza was afr aid

15 for his re-election and was trying to make his district

16 more Republican and that it didn't matter to h im if it

17 became less -- less minority. I recall -- I r ecall that

18 he was more interested in shoring up the Repub lican

19 voter base and it didn't matter at what -- wha t

20 population paid the price.

21 Q. Okay. And how did you -- what's the basis of

22 that recollection?

23 A. Conversations with John Garza.

24 Q. With John Garza. Did he -- was there anyt hing

25 in his comments that led you to believe that h e was

Page 84

1 motivated primarily by race in the way that he wanted

2 his district drawn?

3 A. No. No. No. No. He was probable -- pro bably

4 he's motivated primarily by getting the -- the desire to

5 be re-elected.



7

87:18-88:9

18 Q. Okay. Is there any other fact that leads you

19 to believe that senator -- that Representative Garza was

20 interested in anything other than partisanship as he was

21 re-drawing his lines?

22 A. No. I don't know. I -- I -- and honestly ,

23 partisanship is a byproduct for him of his get ting

24 re-elected, you know.

25 Q. And what do you mean by that?

Page 88

1 A. Well, I think his primary motivator is him

2 getting re-elected. The fact that he's a Repub lican

3 makes it partisan.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. If he were a Democrat it would have -- it wou ld

6 have been -- it's -- it's almost what happened in the

7 valley. The fact that Aaron switched to the Repub lican

8 party created the necessity to gerrymander his di strict

9 to try to keep him.

95:6-16

9 Q. When we were talking about Bexar County you

10 said that you -- when you were drawing your dist rict

11 boundaries you were primarily concerned with you rself,

12 your district --



8

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. -- and just drawing the district that you wou ld

15 want?

16 A. Correct.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations JOE MOODY

1

State Defendants’


Joe Moody



2

7:6-7

6 REPRESENTATIVE JOE MOODY,

7 having being first duly sworn, testified as follo ws:

12:17-13:9

17 Q. Okay. And you've been a -- you were first

18 elected to the Texas Legislature in November of 2009.

19 Is that right?

20 A. 2008.

21 Q. 2008. And your first service was in 2009 --

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. -- that session. Correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. The -- and then your next election to the

Page 13

1 Texas House was in November of 2012. Correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. So you are on your second -- you're sort of

4 finishing your second term. Correct?

5 A. Yes --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. My interrupted --

8 Q. Gotcha.

9 A. -- terms of service.

17:9-24

9 Q. Okay. As a -- as a preliminary matter, were

10 there any factual errors that you saw in the Mar isa



3

11 Marquez deposition?

12 A. Factual errors.

13 Q. That you can point to as we're sitting here.

14 A. She kept referencing that there were two

15 amendments proposed, and there was only one.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And she made reference to that I was running

18 with an amendment without her, and I don't know. I mean

19 this is her perception, I guess. I don't know if it's

20 factual in accuracy. But the amendment, as I pro posed

21 it to her, would only go if -- and according to other

22 communications with -- well, I don't know. This is --

23 again, this is Chairman Darby's communication to

24 members.

18:21-19:1

21 Q. Okay. I understand what you're saying, and

22 we'll -- we'll probably get into that more later , but

23 let me just ask you while we're talking about it .

24 H346 was your idea initially, though.

25 Right?

Page 19

1 A. Correct.

20:18-21

18 Q. Okay. It lists you as testifying about the

19 2011 process. Is that something that you're -- I know

20 you weren't in the Legislature at that time; cor rect?



4


24:6-11

6 Q. Now, you understand the guy next to you

7 works -- has worked on voting rights litigation f or a

8 number of years. So I want to ask you are you -- have

9 you ever worked on any sort of voting rights case s in

10 the past?

11 A. No.

24:18-24

18 Q. Gotcha. I assume it's not an area -- Voting

19 Rights Act cases are a fairly specialized area, and it's

20 not an area that you are going to be offering ex pert

21 testimony on?

22 A. As a legal expert?

23 Q. Correct.

24 A. No.

25:17-26:9

17 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Along those lines, I want

18 to ask you a few questions about your understand ing of

19 voting rights -- some voting rights terminology.

20 Can you define what, in your view, is a

21 minority opportunity district?

22 A. Under -- under case law?

23 Q. Yes. Or -- or under -- under statutory

24 authority or case law, correct.

25 A. I don't have that kind of knowledge.

Page 26



5

1 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Do you -- can you define

2 - I guess this is a similar question - what a Lat ino

3 opportunity district is specifically?

4 A. I couldn't do that.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know if there's a -- in -- in

6 your view or your opinion, is there a threshold

7 population that makes a district a Latino opportu nity

8 district or it does not?

9 A. No. I don't know that number.

29:20-30:10

20 Q. -- Representative Moody. Are these -- is this

21 a true and accurate depiction of the current MAL C

22 members in the State of Texas?

23 A. This is what was off the Web site?

24 Q. I -- I can just tell you it was printed off

25 the -- it looks like off the Mexican American

Page 30

1 Legislative Caucus Web site.

2 A. It -- it looks correct.

3 Q. Okay. With respect to the executive

4 committee -- and let me just ask you this for the

5 record. You are a Democrat; correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. With respect to the executive committee, are

8 there any members of the executive committee that are

9 not Democrat?

10 A. No.



6

31:7-31:11

7 Q. Okay. And do you know what the qualifications

8 are for being a member of MALC?

9 A. I think it's based either on the district

10 makeup, I think your personal ethnicity or, as o ur

11 chairman says, if you have a brown heart.

31:16-31:22

16 Q. Okay. All right. So I want to talk a little

17 bit about the 2011 process.

18 It's correct that the House and Senate

19 redistricting committees held field hearings on

20 redistricting in 2010 before the start of the 82 nd

21 session. Is that right?

22 A. Correct.

32:7-9

7 Q. Right. Did you attend the El Paso field

8 hearing?

9 A. Yes, I did.

32:13-18

13 Q. Okay. There was one in August -- on

14 August 16th of 2010.

15 A. Was it held at UTEP?

16 Q. I don't know if this shows us that.

17 A. I'm almost positive that was the one; and if

18 that's the one, then yes, I attended.

33:11-23

11 Q. Now, can you tell me -- at the El Paso field



7

12 hearing, was there opportunity for citizens to s tand up

13 and -- and discuss issues that they -- that were of

14 importance to them?

15 A. I believe it was a public hearing and so I

16 think there was an opportunity. A lot of the tes timony

17 was invited testimony.

18 Q. Okay. So were you present -- you were not

19 part of the redistricting committee at that time .

20 Correct?

21 A. No, I was not a member of the committee. I

22 believe that Chairman Pickett was on the committ ee from

23 El Paso.

34:3-8

3 Q. And you did participate in the hearing

4 yourself?

5 A. I was there, yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. Citizens were able to stand up and

7 voice their concerns at the field hearing. Correc t?

8 A. To some extent.

34:20-35:5

20 Q. Okay. So transportation could be an issue of

21 attending there. I guess my --

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. -- question was at the hearing, was there any

24 sort of limitation as to what subject matters re lated to

25 redistricting that you could discuss?

Page 35



8

1 A. No. I think as long as it was related to the

2 redistricting process.

3 Q. Okay. Citizens from El Paso were able to come

4 in and voice their concerns?

5 A. Yes. In year -- in 2010, that's correct.

36:23-37:7

23 All right. Okay. Now, can you tell me

24 what Deposition Exhibit No. 5 is?

25 A. This is the base plan.

Page 37

1 Q. Okay. When you say "the base plan," this was

2 the plan that was in effect in El Paso related to the

3 Texas House districts in El Paso prior to the 201 0

4 session. Right?

5 A. Prior to the 2011 session.

6 Q. Prior to the 2011 session. Correct?

7 A. Correct.

38:20-39:14

20 Q. All right. And we can -- and mostly I just

21 want you to talk a little bit -- I'm just asking some

22 questions about sort of the shape of the distric t.

23 There was an antenna-looking extension in

24 the middle of HD 77 that extended north. Correct ?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 39

1 Q. There then was to the -- to the west of HD 77,



9

2 there is an extension that goes around the -- tha t

3 starts going around the -- the west side of the F ranklin

4 Mountain. Correct?

5 A. It doesn't go very far up the west side, but

6 it does -- it did.

7 Q. All right. Now, you understand that this map

8 was in effect since 2001. Is that right?

9 A. Is that -- is that correct?

10 Q. Well, I mean do you know one way or the other ?

11 A. As far as I know, it is the map that I ran

12 under in 2008 --

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. -- and ran under in 2010.

39:24-40:11

24 Q. So one thing that I want to ask you is -- is

25 the Franklin Mountains State Park is the largest urban

Page40

1 park in the nation. Correct?

2 A. In the nation, correct.

3 Q. Completely within the city limits. Correct?

4 A. Correct. You have the -- you have the

5 marketing line down.

6 Q. It's -- and it's a distinguishing feature of

7 El Paso --

8 A. It's a hallmark of El Paso.

9 Q. That there are -- there's a mountain right in

10 the middle of it?



10

11 A. Correct.

41:7-18

7 Q. Okay. Now, one of the things I want to ask

8 is -- is that in this purple region, that would h ave

9 been House District 78 certainly when you ran in 2008.

10 Right?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And the -- the city of Canutillo --

13 A. It's not incorporated.

14 Q. Okay. So the -- the school district -- the

15 Canutillo school district is -- is in -- in this map --

16 A. Wholly within, yes.

17 Q. -- HD 78. Correct?

18 A. Correct.

41:23-42:23

23 Q. Okay. Now, another distinguishing feature of

24 House District 77 is that there is also an easte rn

25 extension that -- that comes out from the center and

Page 42

1 goes due east. Correct?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Kind of following (witness indicating).

5 Q. And what are the communities that that --

6 A. It looks like it's following I-10; although,

7 there's a little bit of a tongue that looks like it

8 maybe goes south of I-10. Like I say, I need the roads;



11

9 although, I think this is I-10.

10 Q. Okay. So -- and that - what are the

11 communities in that region, if you can tell from the

12 map?

13 A. Well, there's definitely central. I consider

14 that central El Paso.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. It borders around the hub where -- where

17 previously District 79 -- well, actually, probab ly where

18 it is now today too. District 79 extended and go t all

19 of Fort Bliss proper, into the old Fort Bliss, a nd then

20 also out into the -- it's just a land mass, not a lot of

21 population, but -- and I think this is kind of h overing

22 around the southern part of that, and then what would be

23 considered central El Paso, north of the freeway .

43:18-44:17

18 Q. Okay. Now, if you'll look at H283, first of

19 all, that eastern extension that we were just ta lking

20 about is -- is not present there. Correct?

21 A. It has been -- Yes. It's eliminated. It

22 looks like it was added to District 76 --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- and I can't tell if 79 got some of it too

25 but –

Page 44

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- it looks like most of it was moved into



12

3 District 76, the eastern extension.

4 Q. Okay. And the HD 77 in this map, H283, the

5 map enacted by the Texas Legislature, extends to the

6 east side of the Franklin Mountain. Correct?

7 A. I'm sorry. Repeat the question.

8 Q. The HD 77 extends to the eastern side of the

9 Franklin Mountain. Correct? There's an extension --

10 A. Up into the northeast --

11 Q. Correct.

12 A. -- part of town?

13 Q. Correct.

14 A. Yes, it does.

15 Q. And it also extends some to the other side of

16 the mountain, which is the western side. Correct ?

17 A. It extends much further into the west side.

45:13-46:5

13 Q. And the -- you understand that this map, H283 ,

14 was not used in any elections. Correct?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Now, I want to talk to you now about the 2011

17 process. Did you have involvement in the drawing of the

18 El Paso House districts?

19 A. No. I never would have done something like

20 this.

21 Q. Okay. Did you participate in any sort of

22 redistricting hearings other than the field hear ing you

23 attended in 2010?



13

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Okay. Are you aware -- You understand that

Page 46

1 prior to the census numbers being issued that the re was

2 some question as to whether El Paso would have fi ve or

3 four House districts. Correct?

4 A. That was a major concern. That was one of the

5 issues that was brought up in the hearing in 2010 .

47:17-23

17 Q. And let me just ask you, the -- under

18 Plan H283, it's a true statement, isn't it, that El Paso

19 maintained all five of their House districts?


21 Q. So you were happy about that part of it?

22 A. I think maintaining five districts was

23 important.

48:3-10

3 Q. All right. One of your political opponents,

4 and you've ran -- you've run against him three ti mes, is

5 Representative Dee Margo. Correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And that was -- and the two of you have had

8 some pretty hotly contested races in HD 78 for

9 representation of HD 78. Agreed?

10 A. I think that's fair to say.

48:20-49:3

20 So was it your -- let me just ask you



14

21 this: Was it your understanding that -- based on

22 your -- based on the redistricting process, was it your

23 understanding that El Paso was going to be a dro p-in

24 district?

25 A. It was my understanding that if the five

Page 49

1 districts held and if they were able to maintain that --

2 that the -- the district would be -- get dropped into a

3 larger map.

49:19-50:2

19 Q. Okay. Gotcha. Did you also hear the term

20 "member driven" from House leadership, that the -- that

21 the -- they wanted the House plans to be member driven?

22 A. I remember hearing that --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- phrase.

25 Q. Do you know –

Page 50

1 A. I heard that you have no friends in

2 redistricting.

50:9-15

9 Q. Let's start with your personal knowledge. Do

10 you have any personal knowledge of how those -- those

11 district --

12 A. I was not --

13 Q. -- lines were developed?

14 A. I was not a part of the discussions that led



15

15 to H283. No, no personal knowledge.

52:21-53:1

21 Q. Okay. So you don't have specific personal

22 knowledge. In other words, there's not anything that --

23 you were not involved in the drawing of the line s. You

24 don't know what was specifically discussed in th ose --

25 in -- in meetings between those members. Correct ?

Page 53

1 A. No.

53:6-11

6 Q. Okay. Do you -- can you -- and so I'm trying

7 to get to how the maps were -- were drawn and so --

8 A. I understand.

9 Q. -- your personal knowledge. You don't have

10 personal knowledge of that. Right?

11 A. I was not part of those conversations –

54:14-19

14 Q. You can't tell me, as you're sitting here, an y

15 specific conversations you've had with anybody t hat give

16 information about how the lines were drawn? You' ve

17 heard some things, but you can't attribute that to any

18 one person?

19 A. No, I don't think so.

55:10-56:7

10 Q. What did Ms. Marquez say to you?

11 A. I think our conversations occurred when the

12 Court -- the second Court map was produced --



16

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. -- the one that we ran under in 2012, because

15 I was already a filed candidate. Okay. It was

16 afterwards. I was already a filed candidate for

17 District 78. The second Court map, for whatever reason,

18 removed me from District 78, moved my residence and

19 placed me in District 77. So I think we had some

20 conversations about that.

21 Q. So can you recall the specifics of those

22 conversations?

23 A. Well, it was definitely not something that I

24 wanted to have happen. My intention was to run i n

25 District 78.

Page 56

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. So I think the conversation was this is where

3 I intend to run, District 78. I know I've been re drawn.

4 I don't know if it can be -- I'm not a member. I don't

5 know if this can be remedied but --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- you know.

57:15-24

15 Q. Okay. And -- and so I think what you're

16 telling me is that between -- as far as how the lines

17 were drawn, your knowledge of that is based upon what

18 Representative Marquez said in her deposition re lated to

19 her communications with Chairman Pickett. Correc t?



17

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Okay. You don't have other -- you haven't had

22 conversations with either that you haven't talke d about

23 yet that relate to how the lines were drawn?

24 A. No.

61:10-62:10

10 When you were saying that you believe the

11 lines were drawn with an intent to discriminate against

12 Latinos, you're not basing it on conversations w ith

13 those who drew the maps; you're instead basing i t upon

14 your perception of the lines post facto. Right?

15 A. I wasn't part of the conversation, and so it' s

16 inferences I'm drawing. I just -- knowing these

17 neighborhoods and knowing this district, it woul d be

18 very hard for me to believe that that wasn't the intent.

19 Q. Okay. But you make room for the possibility

20 that because you don't know the intent of those two drew

21 it --

22 A. I can't get inside their head.

23 Q. Okay. And you make room for the possibility

24 that -- that there could have been other reasons to draw

25 the lines that way?

Page 62

1 A. Could there be?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I'm sure there could be. My perception and my

4 understanding of these areas is I don't see it. I t



18

5 seems to be the overriding factor in the way you would

6 draw it this way.

7 Q. Okay. And -- and again that's your opinion --

8 A. Sure.

9 Q. -- based on looking at the lines?

10 A. Yes, sir.

66:3-22

3 All right. Is there any other

4 information about the 2011 process that you have that

5 leads you to believe that there was intentional

6 discrimination in the drawing of the 2011 lines? And,

7 again, I understand you were not even in the Legi slature

8 during that session.

9 A. Correct. Other than what I've discussed about

10 how these affect people on the ground and my per ception

11 of the way the map is drawn, I don't have any ot her

12 knowledge.

13 Q. Okay. So I want to talk now about the

14 court-implemented plan -- actually, before we -- we've

15 got to go back to H283 because I've got to ask y ou this.

16 I don't know where -- it's a factual question. Y ou

17 were -- in -- in Plan H283, and I think it's exh ibit --

18 maybe if you could identify what Plan H283 is.

19 A. "6."

20 Q. Yeah. In No. 6, you were -- in that plan you

21 remained in HD 78?

22 A. Correct. I was still in that district.



19

68:15-20

15 Q. And so I've handed you Deposition Exhibit

16 No. 8, which is the State House Plan H309. Corre ct?

17 Does that look like the district that the Court drew?

18 A. Oh, okay, the mountain range. I was like --

19 Q. Yeah.

20 A. -- trying to figure out the middle district.

68:25-69:2

25 A. Yes. H309 is the enacted map, the map that

Page 69

1 was run under in 2012 and that's currently in eff ect for

2 the 2014 elections.

70:22-71:18

22 Q. Now, you're aware that the map was one that

23 was advocated, in part, by the Mexican American -- by

24 MALDEF. Correct?

25 A. I believe so.

Page 71

1 Q. Okay. And it was --

2 A. There was some type of a settlement.

3 Q. Okay. Do you have any information about that

4 settlement? Do you -- do you have any personal

5 knowledge about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you were critical of the way HD 77

8 and 78 were drawn in that it took your -- in that your

9 house became part of HD 77. Correct?



20

10 A. That was -- I wouldn't say I was critical. It

11 was definitely inconvenient.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. But it's not ultimately the point of drawing

14 maps where I live or where anyone lives. You're trying

15 to do the best for the community you represent.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. But I did have to ultimately move to continue

18 to run to represent District 78.

76:22-77:4


23 Q. Okay. All right. So, Representative Moody,

24 I'll go ahead and hand you this while he's getti ng

25 another document out. This is Exhibit No. 10, an d you

Page 77

1 recognize this is from the Texas Legislative Coun cil,

2 the Red-119 report. Is that correct? You can look on

3 the top left and you'll see the --

4 A. Red-119.

77:9-15

9 Q. Yeah. So this is information that's compiled

10 by the Texas Legislative Council; and as you can see on

11 the left column, all of the districts are listed .

12 And -- and, first, I think it's important

13 to look at the title, "House Districts - PlanH28 3" on

14 the top. Did I read that right? That's what that is?

15 A. Correct.



21

77:22-80:8

22 Q. All right. So if you would look at 78 --

23 District 78, and then if you'll look to the far right,

24 the "2012 General Election," and then it says "S SVR."

25 Do you understand that to be percentage –

Page 78

1 A. Spanish surname voter --

2 Q. Voter registration, correct. And across from

3 78 it --

4 A. Hold on.

5 Q. Go ahead.

6 A. You said across from which one?

7 Q. 78.

8 A. 78.

9 Q. Yeah. Under "Non-Suspense Voter

10 Registration," 51.2 is the SSVR in District 78.

11 Correct?

12 A. Yes. That's what it says.

13 Q. And then as to District 77, that number is

14 69.7. Correct?

15 A. Correct.


17 Q. All right. So then I'll hand you Exhibit

18 No. 11, which is as to Plan 309, and just do the same.

19 If you'd -- if you'd first just identify what th e

20 document is just from the title at the top.

21 A. Sorry. Document 119 -- or Red-119, House



22

22 Districts Plan H309, Hispanic Population Profile .

23 Q. Okay. And if you'd look at District 77 -- I'm

24 sorry. Let's start with 78, which is your distri ct.

25 The percentage -- and this is for Plan H309 that the

Page 79

1 Court drew.

2 A. Where am I?

3 MR. RICHARDS: At the top of the page,

4 78, over this way.

5 A. There's -- is there a column missing?

6 MR. RICHARDS: No. It's just differently

7 organized. I don't know.

8 Q. Yeah. It's just on the right. It's

9 "Non-Suspense Voter Registration" on the right is 53.7.

10 Do you see that for District 78?

11 A. Hold on. Rate, 53. Correct. And 66.4.

12 Q. So as to SSVR, it has gone up from the

13 prior -- from Plan 309 --

14 A. Well, it went up from 283 to 309. It

15 increased from --

16 Q. Right. From 51.2 to 53.7 in SSVR. Correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Okay. And then also what had happened is that

19 HD 77 had -- had -- the SSVR went from 63 -- I'm

20 sorry --

21 A. 63.3 to 66.4.

22 Q. Actually, I think it's 69.7. It's the left.



23

23 They added an SSTO column on the right. It's to the

24 left.

25 A. Oh, I'm sorry.

Page 80

1 Q. It's okay. So as to House District 77 then,

2 it was 69.7 percent SSVR, and the new -- under 30 9, that

3 had changed to 66.4. Correct?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. So it had lowered -- the Court's plan had

6 lowered the SSVR in 77 and increased the SSVR in -- in

7 HD 78. Right?

8 A. Correct.

84:3-7

3 Q. Okay. So the -- so the Supreme Court had

4 reviewed this issue, the San Antonio Court had re viewed

5 this issue, and the San Antonio Court had adopted this

6 Plan H309 as the configuration for El Paso County ?

7 A. Correct.

84:14-21


15 Q. Okay. All right. So I want to talk now about

16 the 2013 process. What did you do to prepare you rself

17 for the 2013 redistricting session?

18 A. The special session?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Well, it was a little bit -- I mean I guess i t

21 was a little bit surprising that it was on the t able.



24

90:20-91:7

20 Q. All right. Now, the House redistricting

21 committee was -- was chaired by Representative D rew

22 Darby. Correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Had you worked with Representative Darby

25 before?

Page 91

1 A. Yes, on other issues.

2 Q. Okay. And had -- did you have a good working

3 relationship with Chairman Darby?

4 A. I don't have any personal issues with him at

5 all.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. We get along fine.

91:12-16

12 Q. And you didn't ask to be on this redistrictin g

13 committee. Correct?

14 A. Was it on my card, no.

15 Q. Was it on my what?

16 A. Was it on my card to the speaker, no.

91:22-92:7

22 Q. Okay. So you were not involved in the

23 redistricting committee hearings?

24 A. I -- I was unable to attend the initial

25 hearings in Austin. We had a district office ope ning

Page 92



25

1 back home, and we had sent out hundreds of invita tions

2 to my constituents, and so we were opening the do ors to

3 our office for the first time and thought I neede d --

4 and I actually wrote a letter -- or an email, and I

5 think that's been provided, to Chairman Darby. Th at's

6 the reason I couldn't attend the additional heari ngs.

7 And then I asked for a hearing in El Paso.

101:14-104:6

14 Q. So I'm going to hand you what's been marked a s

15 "16," Exhibit 16. There's that. And I'll hand yo u

16 Exhibit No. 17. All right. So can you tell me wh at

17 Exhibits 16 and 17 are?

18 A. Exhibit 16 is Plan H346, which was the

19 Moody-Marquez amendment to Senate Bill 3 -- or I guess

20 it would have been an amendment to the amendment ,

21 technically speaking.

22 Q. Okay. And --

23 A. And Exhibit 17 is the -- it's leg. council

24 data on ethnicity. Is that -- I don't know how t o read

25 it correctly.

Page 102

1 Q. It's -- yeah. If you'll look at it, it's --

2 on the left portion it says "Red-116" do you see up

3 there?

4 A. Yes, sir --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- Red-116.



26

7 Q. And it says "House District - Plan H346" in

8 the middle. Right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then this is a leg. council document that

11 shows -- that shows District 77 and 78 and their

12 Hispanic CVAP numbers. Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. So your proposal H346, and just

15 looking at the Hispanic CVAP numbers, would have

16 decreased the Hispanic CVAP in District 77 from

17 70.2 percent to 68.3 percent. Is that right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And your proposal would have increased the

20 Hispanic CVAP by less than 2 percent, from 60 -- from

21 59.7 percent HCVAP in Plan H309 to 61.3 percent in

22 Plan 346. Did I get that right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Okay. So when you provided your proposal --

25 first of all, this was a proposal that you came up with.

Page 103

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes, this -- well, this was a change. This

3 represents a collaboration between Representative

4 Marquez and myself.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. The -- the initial map that I had drafted,

7 which was never filed, was something that I had w orked



27

8 on and my office had worked on; but as the proces s went

9 along, it seemed like there was no meaningful

10 opportunity to propose amendments that were actu ally

11 targeted at legal deficiencies, and so I kind of had

12 it in my -- had it in my pocket thinking that ma ybe --

13 you know, that there was no -- no real avenue to travel

14 down with it, and so I didn't really talk to any body

15 about it.

16 Q. What were the legal deficiencies in H309 that

17 you felt existed?

18 A. I think that when looking at the county as a

19 whole, there is -- there is more that should be done,

20 and I think the number is closer in line with wh at was

21 vacated by the Supreme Court. That -- that repre sented

22 to me a more even distribution of Hispanic voter s in our

23 counties to fully represent -- to fully represen t what

24 the demographics are in the county, not that -- not that

25 there wasn't an improvement between the 2011 ena cted and

Page 104

1 H309. I think there was an improvement there. I t hink

2 that it didn't go far enough.

3 Q. You would agree that HD 78 was a Latino

4 opportunity district as drawn by the Court?

5 A. Yes, it is, and they said as much in their

6 order.

106:2-16

2 Q. So -- but you would agree that -- that your



28

3 proposal, H346, does contain portions of northeas t

4 El Paso in district HD 77?

5 A. Very -- I mean I would say it's -- these are

6 communities that could be considered central or

7 northeast. It's almost like a boundary between th e two.

8 I think that the hub of northeast -- or what is

9 northeast El Paso in most El Pasoan's mind is con tained

10 within District 78 under this plan. There are pr obably

11 I'd say two or three neighborhoods that might id entify

12 as northeast that don't -- that don't get into 7 8 under

13 this map.

14 Q. So it cuts some northeastern communities to - -

15 your proposal?

16 A. Sure.

107:11-108:1

11 So I just want to -- I'm just pointing

12 out that as to House Plan 346, there is a sectio n of

13 population that abuts the Franklin Mountain that is

14 drawn into HD 78. Is that right?

15 MR. RICHARDS: What portion are you

16 pointing to?

17 MR. SWEETEN: Mountain Park.

18 A. Yes, there's a Mountain Park area. It's --

19 there's a very -- you're talking about -- and I don't

20 want -- I'm going to put a -- I'm going to put a circle

21 around what you're talking about.

22 MR. RICHARDS: That's what we need.



29

23 A. There is -- there is a very small population

24 directly on the mountain generally known as the Mountain

25 Park area that -- that has population. This is –

Page 108

1 there's no population in this part.

108:7-108:21

7 Q. Okay. And -- and why did that -- why was that

8 region not included --

9 A. Not included --

10 Q. -- in your draw of 77?

11 A. So why did -- why did this portion not get pu t

12 into 77?

13 Q. Correct.

14 A. Because Representative Marquez did not want i t

15 In House District 77.

16 Q. Okay. And this was a negotiation between you

17 and -- and Representative Marquez?

18 A. Correct. There is a particular individual

19 that we know that she did not want in her distri ct.

20 Q. Okay. All right. Who is that?

21 A. Mayor John Cook, the former mayor of El Paso.

108:24-109:6

24 Q. Okay. All right. So you and Representative

25 Marquez discussed -- you -- the plan that you fi led was

Page 109

1 H346?

2 A. Correct.



30

3 Q. That's your official plan that you promoted --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- in the Legislature?

6 A. Yes, sir.

109:11-25


12 Q. And so I'll go ahead and hand you Deposition

13 Exhibit No. 18, which is from the "House Journal ."

14 A. I will say this: The portion that we're

15 talking about, this Mountain Park neighborhood, which is

16 contained within 78 under -- under H346, definit ely

17 identifies as northeast.

18 Q. Okay. And so, in other words, you're saying

19 that the section that was left in Marquez's --

20 A. The portion that you were referring to that

21 abuts the mountain.

22 Q. You think they identify themselves as

23 northeast?

24 A. Oh, I absolutely know that. My -- my brother

25 lives up in that area.

110:19-111:12

19 Q. Okay. So those that -- that self-identify as

20 northeasterners, some of them were in district H D 77.

21 You've already said that.

22 A. I would say yes, there probably are some.

23 Q. All right. It's --

24 A. I would say there is -- there would be nobody



31

25 contained in 78 that would not identify as from

Page 111

1 northeast El Paso.

2 Q. But you would agree that even your own map,

3 the proposal you had, would not make -- would not unite

4 all northeasterners with the north -- with other

5 northeasterners?

6 A. It doesn't. If I had the opportunity to

7 unpack all districts in El Paso, there would be a better

8 way to do this but --

9 Q. But you understand a lot of interests are

10 involved in -- in drawing redistricting boundari es,

11 et cetera. Correct?

12 A. Absolutely.

116:21-24

21 Q. Did you feel like Plan H309 in some way

22 violated the Voting Rights Act or the Constituti on?

23 A. I don't have -- I don't have a legal opinion

24 as to that.

124:11-125:4

11 Q. But you would agree with me that that

12 amendment and other amendments were accepted. Co rrect?

13 A. There were multiple that were accepted. In

14 fact, there was even a third reading amendment t hat was

15 accepted.

16 Q. In fact, it's true, isn't it, that as far as

17 the amendments that were accepted, there was an



32

18 amendment that was offered by Representative Anc hia that

19 related to his district in Dallas that was -- wa s

20 accepted that day. Is that correct?

21 A. I believe the interplay was between him and

22 Representative Bennet Ratliff.

23 Q. Okay. So --

24 A. That caused a lot of consternation.

25 Q. So the Anchia amendment related to his

Page 125

1 district was accepted. Right?

2 A. I think the key was that it related to

3 Representative Bennett Ratliff's district; but ye s, it

4 was accepted.

125:23-127:13

23 Q. Okay. You don't dispute that Representative

24 Anchia offered an amendment and that amendment w as

25 accepted?

Page 126

1 A. Do we have the history? I'm -- I'm pretty

2 sure there was one.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I just don't --

5 Q. All right.

6 A. I mean, as far as I know, yes.

7 Q. Do you know if Representative Vo offered an

8 amendment related to House districts in Harris Co unty

9 that was also accepted?



33

10 A. Yes, he did. And the interplay there -- I'm

11 trying to remember who the members were involved in

12 that. Yes, there was one.

13 Q. Okay. Do you know if there was an amendment

14 offered by Representative Giddings that was also

15 accepted there in the House that day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know if there was an amendment offered

18 by Representative Lon Burnam, a MALC member, tha t was

19 also accepted that day?

20 A. Between himself and Chairman Geren, I believe ,

21 yes.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know if there was an amendment

23 offered by Representative Rose that was accepted that

24 day?

25 A. Toni's was accepted? I guess are you – are

Page 127

1 you telling me that it was?

2 Q. I'm just asking do you know.

3 A. Okay. I know that she offered one. I can't

4 remember if it was accepted or not. I assume so s ince

5 this is in this line of questioning.

6 Q. You don't have any reason to dispute that?

7 A. Yeah. I don't.

8 Q. Okay. Very good.

9 There were other amendments that were not

10 accepted. Representative Miles, do you recall if he had



34

11 an amendment?

12 A. Yeah. I think that was after the caucus

13 meeting.

127:24-130:4

24 Q. All right. So one of the things that you said

25 on the floor, and we can -- by the way, can you tell me

Page 128

1 where the -- where you're saying that you articul ated

2 the legal basis for the change on the House floor ?

3 A. Let me go back through everything. You're

4 representing to me that this is the entire exchan ge

5 between myself and Representative Marquez?

6 Q. Yeah, regarding H346 it is.

7 A. Okay. Did we discuss more during this debate?

8 MR. NEILL: Not to my knowledge.

9 A. Okay. I'm just checking. I'm sorry. I don't

10 want to slow the process down any.

11 I think Representative Marquez makes

12 reference to making it more equitable in our com munity.

13 I think that's a reference to the legal deficien cy.

14 That's on "S49." She focuses a lot on the geogra phy.

15 Yeah, it is kind of sprinkled throughout, refere nces to

16 the litigation, references -- references to the

17 conversation that went on at the Supreme Court.

18 Q. Did --

19 A. I mean I don't think I got into the nuts and

20 bolts of -- of --



35

21 Q. What's a legally required change?

22 A. I'm sorry. What?

23 Q. You didn't get into the nuts and bolts of why

24 it's a --

25 A. I don't think I went through HCVAP, SSVR. I

Page 129

1 don't think I get into the weeds on that.

2 What I -- what I did say and what I tried

3 to lay out, at least for the members, was we were told

4 to bring forth amendments that addressed a legal

5 deficiency or what we perceived as one, one that was

6 agreed to by members, and that it would be fully

7 considered.

8 Okay. In all of the amendments you

9 listed from all of the other members, I don't kno w what

10 legal deficiencies they brought to the forefront .

11 This was a litigated district. This was

12 one in which when the Court was asked to come ba ck.

13 After having their first map vacated, they didn' t leave

14 District 77 and 78 alone. They came back and twe aked it

15 yet again. And so I think that there was -- you know,

16 they were going with something that was -- I was n't

17 there, but they were going with something that h as to do

18 with the settlement, they're doing the best they can,

19 and I think what they -- in H309 there was an

20 improvement, but I don't think it went far enoug h to

21 represent the demography in our district, to rep resent



36

22 Hispanic voters, to give them the opportunities that I

23 think they deserved and I think they're legally entitled

24 to.

25 Now, I didn't articulate that on the

Page 130

1 microphone. That's why I went in to try make thes e

2 changes, and I think this represented a -- a bett er way

3 to do things if all we were given was the opportu nity to

4 manipulate these two districts.

130:17-131:17

17 Q. The Court in San Antonio had then again

18 considered the issue and had gone ahead and impl emented

19 a change. Right?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And you understood that that change left the

22 HCVAP and SSVR of District 78 over -- over 50 pe rcent in

23 both categories. In fact -- is that correct?

24 A. It did, yes.

25 Q. Okay. But your amendment intended to – to

Page 131

1 increase those HCVAP numbers by 2 percent as well .

2 Correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And if I were to ask you what section of the

5 voting rights compels that or what section of the

6 Constitution requires that, that's not something that

7 you articulated on the floor or can testify to no w.



37

8 Right?

9 A. No, I did not articulate it, and I'm not an

10 expert in the Voting Rights Act.

11 Q. Okay. So one thing that you did say, and I

12 want to ask you about this, is you said, "Yes, I 've seen

13 it happen multiple times this morning, and I kno w it's

14 maybe because we're in the wrong party - but if we

15 agree, it's not good enough, but if someone else agrees

16 then their amendments are adopted."

17 A. Uh-huh.

132:16-19

16 Q. Are you indicating that you believe that the

17 Legislature turned your amendment down because y ou and

18 Representative Marquez are Latino?

19 A. I can't speak to that.

133:12-24

12 Q. But that opinion does -- you're not indicatin g

13 that you believe that the Legislature intentiona lly --

14 that it's your opinion that the Legislature

15 intentionally discriminated against that amendme nt --

16 didn't accept that amendment because you're Lati no?

17 A. I can't say why or why not the votes went the

18 way they did. I can't say how each member -- I m ean we

19 did it on an up and down vote so...

20 Q. Okay. One thing you did express in your

21 colloquy, though, was that this was done because you

22 were a Democrat?



38

23 A. There's a partisan overlay to everything we

24 do.

135:1-136:23

1 Q. So Exhibit 19 -- and what I want to look at

2 is -- is your elections with Representative Margo , and

3 so there's -- if you look at page -- I guess we'r e on

4 Page 5 -- hold on, "4." Okay. Do you see how it h as

5 the election results for 2008 on the top of Page 4?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It reflects that you -- in 2008, you and

8 Mr. Margo -- you beat Mr. Margo by 51 to 45 perce nt. Is

9 that right?

10 A. Correct. There is a Libertarian in that race.

11 Q. All right. The Libertarian got 3 percent?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. And Representative Margo, had he

14 run for -- had he been a Representative there in the

15 past?

16 A. In?

17 Q. In El Paso.

18 A. No. He ran for State Senate in 2006 and lost

19 that election as well.

20 Q. Okay. So that was a pretty close race. You

21 beat him by 6 percent.

22 A. It was very close.

23 Q. It was your first -- it was your first trip

24 out and you -- you won election for the first ti me in



39

25 that election. Right?

Page 136

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. Then in the second time out in 2010,

3 you had a similarly close race and this time Mr. Margo

4 beat you 52 to 47 percent. Is that right?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. So another second close election.

7 Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then fast forwarding to 2012 and as you

10 were debating this as a legislator, you had just won

11 election again in another fairly close race with -- with

12 Dee Margo, the incumbent, beating him 53 to 46 p ercent.

13 Right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So the two of you -- it was a pretty hotly

16 contested district for at least three election c ycles

17 between you and Representative Margo, the Democr at and

18 the -- and the Republican. Right?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. All right. And this was not a secret. This

21 is public information. It was widely known that the two

22 of you were -- had -- had had multiple bouts?

23 A. Yes.

137:22-139:1

22 Q. Well, I mean, how many of the redistricting



40

23 committee hearings did you attend?

24 A. I -- I didn't -- to sit on the panel for them ?

25 Q. Yeah.

Page 138

1 A. I didn't sit on the panel for any of them. I

2 did -- I watched every single one of them.

3 Q. Okay. You certainly remember a fellow member,

4 Mr. Tray Martinez Fischer, and he was a fairly vo cal

5 member of the committee. Correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Yvonne Davis had much to say as well.

8 Correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Chairman Darby had comments to make at the --

11 at the committee redistricting hearing. Correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Multiple hearings had public participation

14 during 2013. Right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. There was an opportunity for citizens to come

17 before the redistricting committee hearings in A ustin

18 and in the -- in the places where field hearings were

19 held and voice their concerns about the 2013 pla ns?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There was dialog about multiple issues,

22 including alternative plans and -- and the proce ss being

23 employed. There was -- there was considerable di alog in



41

24 the House during '13 during those committee hear ings

25 that you watched. Right?

Page 139

1 A. Correct.

139:15-140:7

15 Q. Okay. You would also agree, however, that --

16 that several substantive amendments were accepte d?

17 A. Substantive?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I guess I would debate that term when you're

20 talking about a parking lot.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. That doesn't sound substantive to me.

23 Q. Do you know what Anchia's amendment -- what i t

24 addressed? Do you know if it -- if it addressed

25 population deviations in Dallas?

Page 140

1 A. You know, I don't know specifically about that

2 one, no. I know there was a lot of political wran gling

3 about that one.

4 Q. Do you know if Representative Vo's -- what --

5 what specific neighborhoods in Houston that -- th at that

6 amendment addressed?

7 A. No, sir.

141:5-143:17

5 Q. (Mr. Sweeten continuing) Did you have any



42

6 conversations with Representative Darby? He sent out an

7 invitation for members to -- to -- and I think yo u've

8 said this in public hearing --

9 MR. SWEETEN: Are we on?

10 THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes.

11 Q. Okay. In public hearing, he said that members

12 could meet with him. Did you meet with Represent ative

13 Darby in his office at any point?

14 A. No.


16 Q. Okay. Did -- I'm going to hand you an article

17 that we printed off. This is Exhibit No. 20, and this

18 is dated June 30th, 2013. I think it's from the

19 "El Paso Times," and I want to turn your attenti on to --

20 one second. Here. Okay. All right. So you can lo ok

21 through it to the extent you need to to get cont ext, but

22 where I particularly want to ask you about is -- is a

23 quote on Page 3 of the article.

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. And here it indicates that under Moody's

Page 142

1 amendment, the percentage of registered voters wi th

2 Hispanic surnames in his district would increase from 54

3 to 56 percent. The proportion in Marquez's distri ct

4 would drop from 66 to 64 percent.

5 Here Marquez says, quote, overall it's

6 going to drop my points to increase his, Marquez said.



43

7 Below Marquez says, quote, it would

8 increase the number of Democratic districts in El Paso,

9 but El Paso is a Democratic city, she said.


11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is --

13 A. That is her statement.

14 Q. Is that a sentiment that she had expressed to

15 you as well?

16 A. No.

17 Q. At the time that the -- that the 2013

18 redistricting plans were being considered, it's a true

19 statement that all five of the El Paso Represent atives

20 were Democrats. Right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. It's also a fact, isn't it, that in 2013, as

23 the legislative session convened that all five o f the

24 districts in -- in El Paso had SSVR and HCVAP

25 populations of over 50 percent?

Page 143

1 A. Say it -- say it again.

2 Q. It's a true statement that as 2013 convened --

3 the Legislature convened in '13 that of the five -- that

4 of the five House districts from El Paso that all five

5 of them had SSVR and HCVAP populations of over

6 50 percent?

7 A. Over 50.



44

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes --

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. -- some were. I mean 78 was the only one that

12 was even close to 50. The other ones were way ab ove

13 that.

14 Q. Okay. And so five of five were Democratic in

15 El Paso and five -- five for five were -- had ov er

16 50 percent HCVAP and SSVR. Right?

17 A. Correct.

145:7-18

7 Q. I think we just asked about that comment.

8 Well, let -- let me ask you, now that you mention s it,

9 would you agree that certainly based on the comme nt that

10 it -- that Ms. Marquez's -- Representative Marqu ez's

11 statement indicates that she was -- her intentio n was to

12 keep El Paso Democratic?

13 A. Well, it doesn't reflect the conversations I

14 had with her, but it's her statement so...

15 Q. Okay. And you don't have any reason to

16 dispute that she said that or that's accurate. C orrect?

17 A. Well, I guess you'd have to ask the reporter.

18 I mean I don't have any reason to say no.

145:22-146:6

22 Q. Okay. And certainly you intend to run in

23 November of '14. Correct?

24 A. I am -- I have filed to run in November of



45

25 2014.

Page 146

1 Q. You are going to run in district -- House

2 District 78. Correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Obviously reelection is something that's

5 important to you as a general matter?

6 A. Yes.

147:8-148:3

8 Q. No. That's okay.

9 So I want to ask you in looking at the

10 "yea" votes there, as you're sitting here and yo u've --

11 I've -- I've given you a black pen that's right there on

12 the left. I want you to tell me is there any spe cific

13 legislator on this list that you believe voted f or that

14 plan in order to intentionally discriminate agai nst

15 Latinos or African Americans?

16 A. I can't speculate to what's in their mind whe n

17 they vote --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. -- and I wouldn't --

20 Q. And that's -- okay. So I want to ask you now

21 about the Congressional plan, and I don't -- I h aven't

22 seen that you were terribly involved --

23 A. I was not.

24 Q. -- in the Congressional plan passage, and --

25 and -- but -- and also I don't think that you're



46

Page 148

1 disclosed as being a witness that's going to test ify

2 about the Congressional plan but --

3 A. I don't think I am.

149:13-20

13 Q. And that's fair enough. So -- so your

14 particular -- if you have any opinion on -- on t he

15 Congressional district, it's 23 and that it's a

16 difficult district to draw. Right? It's a compet itive

17 district. Right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Representative Quico Canseco ran

20 against Representative Gallego?

149:23-150:5

23 Q. And those have been very close elections.

24 Right?

25 A. The one they had, yes.

Page 150

1 Q. Okay. The one --

2 A. They're running again, I guess.

3 Q. Yeah. And, in fact, Congressional district

4 elections in 23 are -- are typically pretty compe titive?

5 A. That's my understanding.

150:24-151:3

24 Q. So it's not your intention -- it's not your

25 opinion one way or the other that there was inte ntional

Page 151



47

1 discrimination in passing the Congressional map?

2 A. I don't have an opinion as to the

3 Congressional map.

151:16-156:19

16 Q. Now, one of the issues that came up in the --

17 the litigation is the Canutillo school district. It was

18 mentioned by one of the witnesses in the case, a nd so I

19 want to ask you some questions about Canutillo.

20 Now, first of all, you've been to

21 Canutillo High School. Correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. It is -- it's a beautiful high school. It's

24 newly built. Correct?

25 A. The new one is very nice, yes.

Page 152

1 Q. Built in 2006. Right?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And I've even got -- I'm going to hand you

4 some photos of Canutillo and ask you if this depi cts

5 what Canutillo looks like today?

6 A. Canutillo High School?

7 Q. Correct.

8 A. Yeah.


10 Q. Now, are those true and accurate depictions o f

11 Canutillo High School?

12 A. The front page of Exhibit 22 is the entryway



48

13 of Canutillo High School. That looks accurate to me.

14 There's a photo on the second page of the footba ll

15 field -- or one side of it. It looks accurate. A nd

16 then I think this is the cafeteria and auditoriu m, and

17 that looks -- there's more room in that room, bu t

18 there's nothing inaccurate about what they're --

19 Q. All right.

20 A. -- photographs of.

21 Q. All right. Now, you understand that

22 Canutillo, based on TEA rankings, is actually co nsidered

23 a recognized high school?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you aware if Canutillo ISD has an –

Page 153

1 whether or not it has an annual budget of $56,000 ,000?

2 A. I don't know what their budget is. I know

3 that it has increased significantly in the last s everal

4 years.

5 Q. Okay. And there have been some -- some bond

6 elections related to funding of Canutillo ISD. Ri ght?

7 A. There was a tax ratification election and a

8 bond issue that went out in 20 -- 2011 maybe. 201 1.

9 Q. In 2011?

10 A. Something like that, yeah. I think both were

11 passed. They had failed on prior --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- TREs.



49

14 Q. In -- in April of 2011, is it true that the

15 voters of CISD supported the district by passing a

16 $44,000,000 bond issue?

17 A. Yes, they did pass the bond issue in 2011, an d

18 they also at the same time passed a tax ratifica tion

19 election.

20 Q. Okay. And the bond issue provided for

21 additional funding needed for -- to build the di strict's

22 tenth school. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the tenth school broke ground in the

25 summer of 2013. It's called Congressman Silvestr e and

Page 154

1 Carolina Reyes PK-8 School.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Canutillo has a -- unique to Canutillo is that

4 they have a blue field. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sort of like Boise State. Right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. It's very much like that.

10 Q. Yeah. And it's -- I mean these pictures

11 depict that the -- that the stadium is a first c lass

12 stadium?

13 A. It's a very nice facility, and that community

14 deserves it. They have been historically an



50

15 impoverished community and one that was agricult urally

16 based for -- for many years and still is to some -- some

17 extent today, and for them to have these types o f

18 resources are -- it's -- it's great for the kids there.

19 Had they not passed those bonds and TREs they wo uld have

20 been in a lot of trouble with their pre-K progra ms and

21 with some teachers being -- having to be let go so...


23 Q. All right. Well, let me give you "23," which

24 is off the Canutillo ISD Web site because I want to ask

25 you just a couple of more questions about the pa st. We

Page 155

1 talked about the recent bond elections --

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. -- but let's talk about some other ones.

4 On the bottom, the second to the last

5 paragraph on the first page, Representative Moody --

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. -- it says, "In April 2003, CISD voters again

8 gave their vote of confidence and passed another bond

9 issue for 12.3 million, 5 million for district-wi de

10 maintenance and renovation projects and 7.3 mill ion

11 earmarked for the new high school construction."


13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Is that -- I mean you're in the district. Is

15 that an accurate statement?



51

16 A. In 2003, I was in college and so I don't

17 recall this election --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. -- even though I do watch elections closely.

20 Q. Gotcha.

21 A. If they're putting it on their Web site, I

22 assume -- I do know their PR person and so I ass ume he

23 got his facts correct.

24 Q. Okay. Then it says, "In 2006, CISD voters

25 passed a $39 million bond issue that provided fo r the

Page 156

1 construction of two elementary schools and enhanc ements

2 to existing schools."

3 A. That's what it says here, yes.

4 Q. Would you agree that -- that with respect to

5 certainly the last decade -- actually over the la st

6 decade that Canutillo's school infrastructure's n eeds

7 have been met?

8 A. Have been met?

9 Q. Yeah.

10 A. I think they're trying to meet them.

11 Q. Is there -- I mean --

12 A. You can always do more.

13 Q. You can always do more. But would you agree

14 that Canutillo has -- has had substantial fundin g from

15 bond elections over the past decade?

16 A. It looks like they've had some. They did have



52

17 some rejected, though, during that same span of time.

18 Q. But what we've gone over is a $44 million bon d

19 passed in April of '11, a 39 –

156:22

22 Q. -- $39 million bond –

157:3-11

3 Q. -- but let's talk about some other ones.

4 On the bottom, the second to the last

5 paragraph on the first page, Representative Moody --

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. -- it says, "In April 2003, CISD voters again

8 gave their vote of confidence and passed another bond

9 issue for 12.3 million, 5 million for district-wi de

10 maintenance and renovation projects and 7.3 mill ion

11 earmarked for the new high school construction."


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations RENE OLIVEIRA

1

State Defendants’


Rene Oliveira



2

6:5-6

5 Q Would you state your name for the record, sir.

6 A Rene Oliveira.

10:12-15

12 Q Okay. And as I understand it, you are

13 appearing here as a fact witness rather than an expert

14 witness. Is that correct?

15 A Correct.

13:11-14

11 Q Okay. Would you agree with me, though,

12 comparing the 1960s to today, that there's consi derably

13 more minority office holders in Texas --

14 A Yes.

24:13-18

13 Q And I assume that you have no evidence that

14 the Anglos in your district vote as a voting blo ck. Is

15 that correct?

16 A I would have to say that more of them vote

17 Republican than Democrat, so I guess I'm not sur e what

18 you mean by "voting block."

35:1-5

1 Q (By Mr. Deane) Is House District 37 -- would

2 you consider it a Hispanic opportunity district?

3 A Yes. Yes, it's -- it's always had a

4 significantly high -- I can remember percentiles of

5 91 percent or more Hispanic voting age population .

40:9-23



3

9 Q Okay. Just so we're clear -- and I'll go

10 ahead and put these out. This is Exhibit No. 4, which

11 was the House map that was passed.

12 And I'll show you Exhibit No. 5, which is

13 the congressional district map that was also pas sed at

14 the same time.

15 And so my question first is, do you know

16 Exhibit No. 4, the State House of Representative maps?

17 MR. GARZA: Objection. Asked and

18 answered.

19 A I really can't say. I mean, I -- it was

20 purportedly the redistricting committee, but I s ometimes

21 believe they were -- I have general unease and a lack of

22 trust in that particular process, and felt that outside

23 forces were -- were drawing the maps.

48: 11-17

11 Q Okay. In 2011, there were 101 Republican

12 seats and 49 Democrat, correct?

13 A That sounds right.

14 Q So the Republicans have substantial control of

15 the House as far as the rules and implementation of

16 these maps, correct?

17 A Yes.

48:23-50:7

23 Q (By Mr. Deane) Mr. Oliveira, the public

24 hearings on the 2011 maps that we're looking at,

25 Exhibits 4 and 5, do you recall where all that t hey were



4

Page 49

1 held?

2 A No. I'd be speculating. I think only that

3 they were -- I don't know if there were any field

4 hearings, but, again, I wasn't on the committee t hen,

5 and we had key members we respected that were eit her on

6 the committee or carefully following it, as well as our

7 own Mexican American Caucus staff, so I relied on those

8 individuals. So I don't remember.

9 Q Okay. If the record shows there were some 20

10 hearings starting up Monday, June 21st, 2010, in San

11 Antonio; Monday, July 19, 2010, in McAllen; Tues day,

12 July 20, Laredo -- I could go on, but --

13 A Yeah.

14 Q -- if the record shows that all of these

15 hearings happened, you have nothing to dispute t hat?

16 A No, I -- I don't.

17 Q Okay. And were you aware that many of the

18 hearings were held in Spanish-speaking areas of the

19 state?

20 A I was not.

21 Q Okay. Would you agree with me that Edinburg,

22 El Paso, Laredo, McAllen, San Antonio, that thos e have

23 substantial Spanish-speaking populations?

24 A Yes. And now that you bring it up, I think I

25 do recollect that there were some hearings even in the

Page 50



5

1 Valley.

2 Q Okay. And I believe you said already you did

3 not attend any of the hearings?

4 A I might have gone to the Valley hearings as an

5 observer.

6 Q Okay. Did you talk to your constituents at

7 the time about the hearings?

50:20-51:4

20 Q Were members of the public hearings allowed to

21 comment on the maps?

22 A I think in the Valley hearing, there -- there

23 was some public comment, but I -- I didn't atten d very

24 many since I wasn't on the committee. So I -- li ke I

25 said, at best, I did one or two hearings. I was

Page 51

1 counting on other leaders to -- to give me the

2 information. And if there was efforts to get prop er

3 testimony there, I was counting on other people t o do

4 that.

57:11-58:6

11 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you Exhibit No. 6,

12 which is the C185 population analysis, and then I'm

13 going to hand you Exhibit 7, which is the C100 b enchmark

14 plan. This relates to the Blake Farenthold Distr ict in

15 Nueces County.

16 So first I'm going to give you No. 6.



6

17 Now I'm giving you No. 7.

18 Okay. So looking at these -- actually,

19 it's kind of reverse, and I apologize. No. 7 is what we

20 call the benchmark plan, the 2010 census. I gues s you

21 would call it the "before plan."

22 And then No. 6 is the after plan where we

23 separated out those two districts. And by that, if you

24 look on No. 7 at page -- I'm sorry. If you look on

25 Exhibit 6 at page 7, you'll see District 27 iden tified

Page 58

1 there.

2 A Page 7?

3 Q Page 6 of 7.

4 A 6 of 7?

5 Q Yes.

6 A Okay.

58:14-59:3

14 Q So looking at -- and I'm going to look at

15 Exhibit 6 first. This was the plan that separate d out

16 from District 27 the city of Brownsville or Came ron

17 County, and so if you look on page 7 of Exhibit 6 --

18 A Okay.

19 Q -- you'll see under District 34 that that's

20 where Cameron County ended up in the congression al

21 district, along with Hidalgo County.

22 A Yes.

23 Q You see that?



7

24 A Yes.

25 Q And then on Exhibit 7, which is actually the

Page 59

1 before picture, District 27 included both Cameron and

2 Nueces Counties. Do you see that? Page 6 of 7.

3 A Yes.

60:1-62:3

1 Q Okay. So what it shows is that Cameron County

2 and Nueces County were in a district together bef ore the

3 Farenthold district was split off?

4 A Right.

5 Q They were together. And the percentages were

6 69 percent Hispanic and then 71 when you combine the

7 Hispanic and the African-American community. It w as

8 71 percent black and Hispanic. Do you see that?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Okay. Now, in the after picture, which is

11 Exhibit 6, we could move over to --

12 A Okay.

13 Q -- page 6 of 7 in Exhibit 6.

14 A Okay.

15 Q What you ended up here for Nueces County, it

16 got dropped into the District 27, the -- I guess you

17 would say the new District 27.

18 And here the -- and looking at the -- on

19 the -- in the gray area, the second line for vot ing age

20 population, you'll see that the Hispanic voting age



8

21 population dropped to the 45 percent, and the co mbined

22 black Hispanic population voting age population is just

23 over 50 percent. Do you see that?

24 A Is this -- are you looking at the far

25 right-hand column?

Page 61

1 Q Yes.

2 A So you've got "percentage BH" --

3 Q Correct.

4 A And I'm seeing that at 54.9.

5 Q Yes, sir. It's 50 -- well, that's the total.

6 I'm look at the voting age.

7 A Oh, I'm sorry. The number before it. I see

8 it now. Yes. I'm sorry.

9 Q Yes, the second line. 50.4.

10 So in the voting age population, you

11 still have a 50.4 percent minority district here ; is

12 that correct?

13 A It appears so.

14 Q Okay. And if you look over on the next page

15 of Exhibit 6, which is the new District 34, whic h is

16 your -- where your area, Cameron County --

17 A Yes.

18 Q -- would be listed there. You'll see that the

19 percentages in the voting age population for His panic

20 are 79 percent; and when you combine the



9

21 African-American with Hispanic, it's 80 percent. Do you

22 see that?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And would you say that that also is a

25 minority opportunity district?

Page 62

1 A District 34?

2 Q Yes, sir.

3 A Yes.

62:18-65:13

18 Q If we'd think about these two plans and the --

19 I'm looking at the Exhibit 6 plan, where we sepa rated

20 out District 27 and District 34, which is respec tively

21 the Nueces County and then the Cameron County di stricts.

22 Looking at the separation of those two,

23 did you think that that was inappropriate in any way?

24 A I -- I've never seen these numbers before, so

25 I'm -- I'm hesitant to -- to speak about it bein g

Page 63

1 appropriate or inappropriate. And I would need to share

2 with you -- I had another guiding principle.

3 And, personally, what I thought should be

4 done, besides us as a community of interest, Hisp anic

5 Texans, deserving at least, I thought, three more

6 congressmen, I also wanted a district to finally be

7 based in Cameron County.

8 As you know, having lived there, we have



10

9 not had a congressman. It was always a congressma n from

10 Hidalgo County or now -- or from Nueces County.

11 So I looked at this a little differently

12 than perhaps every other member. And that was gu iding

13 me as -- both principles were guiding me, creati ng a --

14 a district that I thought the Valley should get, Cameron

15 County, as well as finding three more congressme n for

16 the Hispanic community.

17 So I -- to say one is appropriate or

18 inappropriate, I don't feel those -- I can answe r it

19 that way, but I can tell you that I was being gu ided by

20 both principles in my deliberations and in my vo ting on

21 these proposals.

22 Q Okay. So would you be in favor of this

23 division? Is that what you're telling us?

24 A I was in favor of creating a Cameron County

25 district. I didn't spend a lot of time thinking how the

Page 64

1 Nueces County-based district would be. So I don't feel

2 completely prepared to answer how Representative

3 Farenthold's district should be now; should it ha ve a

4 greater minority percentage than it did or not.

5 I -- I, frankly, was laser-like in my

6 focus about having another Valley district based out of

7 Cameron County.

64:15-65:13

15 Q Okay. I'm going to hand you Exhibit No. 8,



11

16 which was the Corpus Christi redistricting heari ng --

17 A Okay.

18 Q -- that was held on this subject, in which

19 they were taken to public testimony.

20 And I'll just ask, first of all, have you

21 ever seen this document?

22 A No. It was back in 2010. Yeah, I was not a

23 member of the committee then.

24 Q Okay. And would it surprise you that a number

25 of people in this hearing spoke out in favor of

Page 65

1 separating Nueces County and its port from Browns ville

2 and its port?

3 A No. It would not surprise me. There was the

4 discussion of that for years.

5 Q In fact, Senator Juan Hinojosa -- I think he

6 goes by "Chuy" locally -- was in favor of this di vision,

7 was he not?

8 A I don't know. I assumed he was, but --

9 because generally most of the elected officials i n the

10 Valley wanted another valley-based congressional

11 district. We thought we were overdue. We thought we

12 had the population. So I -- if he did, I think t hat's

13 great.

79:7-82:4

7 Let me go -- and I'm going to back to --

8 I'm going to go to Exhibit No. 10, which is the s enate



12

9 journal. And let me ask first -- this is the 2011 time

10 period.

11 Did you have a chance to see the final

12 vote tallies of the 2011 House Bill 150 map?

13 A In the Senate, no, I did not.

14 Q If we look on page 2 of Exhibit No. 10, we'll

15 see there the HB 150 is being voted on by the Se nate.

16 Do you see that?

17 A Uh-huh.

18 Q And do you see any Democrats that voted in

19 favor of House Bill 150 redistricting plan?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. Can you identify who those are in the

22 list there?

23 A I guess it would be Hinojosa, Ed Lucio,

24 Uresti, and Van de Putte, and West.

25 Q Is Watson a Democrat?

Page 80

1 A Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Watson too.

2 Q Do you believe that those Democrats had a

3 discriminatory intent in voting in favor of the

4 redistricting House Bill 150?

5 A I don't know what their intent was. I do know

6 there had been a custom and practice in the House to

7 defer to the Senate, and the Senate to defer to t he

8 House on each other's plan.



13

9 I don't know if it's been adhered to in

10 all my three decades in the legislature, but I k now

11 that's been a custom and practice, that "we don' t mess

12 with your plan, you don't mess with our plan" ki nd of

13 agreement. But these particular members, I -- I don't

14 know why. I'd be speculating.

15 Q You're certainly not inclined to testify that

16 they voted with the intent to discriminate again st

17 minorities, correct?

18 A I really couldn't say one way or the other

19 right now.

20 Q Okay. What would distinguish their intent

21 from any of the other senators listed?


23 answered.

24 A Yeah. I mean, I'd be speculating.

25 Q (By Mr. Deane) So there's no way to tell just

Page 81

1 because somebody voted for the plan if they had t he

2 intent to discriminate against minorities? Is tha t what

3 you're telling us?

4 A As to the Democratic members, yes.

5 Q As to any member, sir. That was my question.

6 A Oh. No, I really can't speculate other

7 than -- well, I just won't speculate. I have some ideas

8 on possibilities, but they're just speculations.

9 Q Okay. But my question is, you have no



14

10 evidence that just voting for the plan shows an intent

11 to discriminate against minorities, correct?


13 answered.

14 Are you referring only to the House bill

15 and vote in the Senate?

16 MR. DEANE: Yes. We're looking at House

17 Bill 150 on page 2754 of the journal.

18 A I can speculate that Lucio and Hinojosa may

19 have voted for it because -- no, I'm sorry. I ca n't.

20 I -- I can't say why. I would just be guessing.

21 Q (By Mr. Deane) Thank you.

22 A It could just be that custom.

23 Q I'm going to hand you Exhibit No. 11, which is

24 the court opinion, and ask if you've ever seen t his

25 document before?

Page 82

1 A It's not another document I would have scanned

2 or received a summary of.

82:12-25

12 Q Okay. In adopting the plan that was

13 ultimately turned into the maps in the 2013 sess ion,

14 you're not here to testify today that the court panel

15 intended to discriminate against minorities, are you?

16 A My understanding was that the court panel had

17 found likely violations, but chose to adopt the House

18 plan and allow the litigation to go forward to d ecide



15

19 whether the House plan should be further modifie d.

20 That's what I understood the opinion to mean.

21 I thought they left it open that there

22 were issues that needed to be resolved and that the

23 litigation would resolve the other objections ma de by

24 the parties.

25 Q Okay.

93:12-23

12 Q Okay. I'm going to at this time hand you

13 Exhibits 14 and 15.

14 We're close to the end, by the way.

15 A Okay.

16 Q And these were the maps that were adopted by

17 the state legislature in the 2013 from the court 's

18 interim plan.

19 So Exhibit No. 14 is plan H358, the State

20 House districts.

21 And then Exhibit No. 15 is the U.S.

22 Congress map --

23 A Okay.

95:14-17

14 Q Hand you 16, which is the notice of public

15 hearings. Almost to the last Exhibit, No. 17.

16 So let me ask first, have you ever seen

17 Exhibit 16, the notice of public hearings?

99:2-5

2 Q Were there opportunities in these hearings to



16

3 present alternate plans?

4 A Yes. I had an alternate congressional plan

5 that I hurriedly filed.

100:5-10

5 Q (By Mr. Deane) Okay. On to the last exhibit.

6 This is Exhibit 17, a House journal. And I'll rep resent

7 to you this is the House journal. These are excer pts

8 from it. On the second page is the Senate Bill 3, and

9 then third page is Senate Bill 4 is postponed to the end

10 of -- of the hearing.

100:23-101:12

23 Q -- it says Bill 3, and it shows you voting in

24 the nay column.

25 A Uh-huh.

Page 101

1 Q Is that a yes?

2 A Yes. Sorry.

3 Q Okay. And this was passed by 93 yes votes and

4 46 no votes; is that correct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And over on the next page, the U.S. House of

7 Representatives plan, Senate Bill 4, same thing. It was

8 passed by 93 yes votes and 47 no votes; is that c orrect?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And you voted in the no column?

11 A Yes. I had forgotten that they were Senate

12 bills.



17

104:5-12

5 Q My question was, in District 37, the

6 constituents that you represent, are you aware of any

7 violations that they've done of the preclearance

8 requirements in the Voting Rights Act?

9 A No.

10 Q And your opinion is that they --

11 A Actually, it would be very hard to do with

12 90 percent Hispanic in my district.

113:18-115:3

18 Q (By Mr. Deane) Look back at Exhibit No. 12,

19 the court order.

20 You were asked a moment ago if the court

21 considered the Hispanics in south Texas split. A nd I'm

22 looking at Exhibit 12, page 53.

23 MR. GARZA: Objection. Mischaracterizes

24 the question that I asked, but go ahead.

25 Q (By Mr. Deane) Are you at page 53?

Page 114

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And there about in the second

3 paragraph, about halfway down, five lines down, i t

4 states -- the court said, "The failure to place N ueces

5 County Hispanics in a south Texas district has no t

6 diminished Hispanic voter opportunity for Section 2

7 purposes, since whether they are included or not, it

8 appears that only seven reasonably compact Latino



18

9 opportunity districts can be drawn in compliance with

10 Section 2.

11 "In other words, Plaintiffs fail to

12 demonstrate that their placement prevented them (or

13 other Latinos) from constituting a majority in a n

14 additional district."

15 Were you aware of that finding?

16 A No, I was not.

17 Q And over on the next page, it actually states

18 in the second paragraph there about six lines do wn, "The

19 state elicited testimony that the State House an d State

20 Senate representatives from Cameron County (all three

21 Latino Democrats) expressed a desire for a congr essional

22 district to be anchored in Cameron County, rathe r than,

23 as was the case in benchmark CD 27, a district w eighted

24 on both ends by the competing ports of Brownsvil le and

25 Corpus Christi."

Page 115

1 Are you aware that the court considered

2 that, sir?

3 A I think I was aware of that.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations JOE PICKETT

State Defendants’


Joe Pickett

1



6:5-9:5

5 Q. So, Representative Pickett, would you please

6 state your name, current address and business address

7 for the record.

8 A. Joseph Conrad Pickett. My business address

9 and home address is one in the same, [REDACTED],

10 [REDACTED] El Paso, Texas, [REDACTED].

11 Q. Okay. And, Representative Pickett, you are a

12 State Representative from House District what in

13 El Paso?

14 A. 79.

15 Q. Okay. And how long have you served as the

16 Representative for House District 79?

17 A. 20 years.

18 Q. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about your

19 background. Are you a native -- native El Pason?

20 A. I wasn't born there, but otherwise yes.

21 Q. Okay. Can you take us through sort of your --

22 just give us a general description of your background

23 and then kind of lead us up until when you became

24 elected to House District 79.

25 A. Sure. You'd better bring in dinner but –

Page 7

1 Q. Well, we -- we'll take the cliff notes

2



2 version.

3 A. No. I'll keep the -- I'll do the cliff notes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. It actually started in prior to being in the

6 Legislature, I was on the City Council in El Paso. I

7 was interested in my community activism. I got elected

8 to the City Council. There was a -- redistricting had

9 happened, and we had two Republican seats, two

10 Democratic seats. One of the Republican members was

11 retiring. The other Republican member was moving to the

12 retiring member's district because he felt it was a

13 stronger Republican district. And then different people

14 came to me and recruited me to run for what is now

15 District 79. This is back in 1994.

16 The district covered a lot of the area

17 that I represented as a City Council member. We were

18 going to go through redistricting at the time, and so my

19 area was literally huge. It was probably a third to a

20 half of the -- the city.

21 I ran for the election as a Democrat. I

22 had been challenged on and off for the last 20 years,

23 most of them recruited by other elected officials, and

24 made it through and here I am today. I've gone through

25 three redistrictings. I've represented far west El Paso

3



Page 8

1 all of the way to the New Mexico, Mexico border, and

2 then went through a reiteration and lost part of that

3 and had lots of the -- what's referred to as northeast

4 El Paso and east side. Everybody has assumed that I'm

5 east side because of my prior experience as a City

6 Council member. This last go-around, my physical

7 boundaries of my district are almost predominately what

8 would be considered the east side of El Paso going up to

9 Fort Bliss.

10 Q. Okay. So statewide, from a statewide

11 redistricting standpoint, how many -- and I'm talking

12 about House districts, Senate districts, or

13 Congressional districts, how many redistricting cycles

14 have you been through? I know there's '11, I know

15 there's '13, and I know there's 2001; correct?

16 A. Right. And then there was -- those are the

17 three, because I came in '94. So the first one would

18 have been 2001 --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- after that census. So then the upchuck one

21 in 2003 and then 2011. So I've been in three.

22 Q. Okay. The --

23 A. Not counting '13, which was not redistricting

4



24 but, you know, bills being filed and whatnot.

25 Q. Okay. You've lived in El Paso most of your

Page 9

1 life. Correct?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. You -- and you've represented the same House

4 district for approximately 20 years?


11:16-13:15


17 Q. So what I'm handing you is what we'll call

18 Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Sorry.

19 A. That's all right.

20 Q. That's Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and this

21 is -- you may or may not have seen this before, but what

22 district -- what Exhibit 1 is is a list of House

23 districts from Plan H100. This is the Red-109 report

24 with -- using 2010 census data. And just since the

25 numbers you may not recall, I think you've probably

Page 12

1 slept since then, but the plan -- the benchmark plan is

2 H100, which was the plan in effect when the 2011

3 Legislature sat down and began the redistricting

4 process. Okay? Do you understand that?

5



5 A. I do.

6 Q. Okay. And the -- if we look at the House

7 districts, they're on the left side, and so the House

8 districts coming into the 2011 session from El Paso were

9 District 75, 76, 77, 78 and 79. Is that right?


11 Q. Okay. Yours was 79, and so let's take a look

12 at the numbers under the benchmark. It appears to be

13 that the HCVAP -- the percentage HCVAP for your district

14 under the H100 plan -- and, first, do you understand

15 what HCVAP means?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Okay. That's Hispanic citizen voting age

18 population, and underneath it, it says that 70 percent

19 of your district is HCVAP.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. So is it your understanding that the district

22 you represent had approximately 70 percent Hispanic

23 citizen voting age population?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Okay. And you have been elected from that

Page 13

1 district for -- since the '90s. Correct?

2 A. '94.

6



3 Q. Has it -- and I'm not holding you to a

4 specific number, but has -- has -- at all times that

5 you've been representing that district, have you had a

6 majority Hispanic House district?

7 A. All of the time.

8 Q. Okay. If we look at the percentage SSVR under

9 "Non-Suspense" on the right side, the far column under

10 79, do you see that?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Okay. And one thing I didn't tell you, you've

13 got to -- when you say "uh-huh," you have to say

14 "yes" --

15 A. Yes.

13:21-15:25

21 Q. So I may ask you -- if you say that, I may

22 just have a follow-up question on that.

23 So the percentage "Non-Suspense Voter

24 Registration" for District 79 was listed as 65.2.

25 Correct?

Page 14


2 Q. All right. Now let's look at the other

3 districts under Plan H100. It looks like District 75

4 had an 87.8 percent "H" -- I'm sorry. That's HVAP. So

7



5 let me go to HCVAP. It looked like District 75 had an

6 83.1 percent HCVAP. Correct?

7 A. Yep. I'm following you. Yes.

8 Q. And who sits in District 75?

9 A. Well, at that time, it was Chente Quintanilla.

10 Q. Okay. And Representative Quintanilla is

11 Hispanic. Correct?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. That's yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. District 76 was -- had an 89.4 percent

16 HCVAP coming into the 2011 session. Who represented

17 House District 76? Is that --

18 A. I never was good with the numbers.

19 Q. Is that Naomi Gonzalez or is that --

20 A. It must have been Naomi, because 77 and 78 are

21 the west side, and so that's central and so that would

22 have been Naomi Gonzalez.

23 Q. Okay. So 76 was Naomi Gonzalez.

24 And then we have District 77 with a

25 78.6 percent HCVAP. Correct?

Page 15

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And District 77 was Marisa Marquez coming into

8



3 2011. Correct?


5 Q. And she's a Hispanic female. Correct?

6 A. That's what she tells me.

7 Q. Okay. District 78 has an HCVAP listed here at



10 Q. And who represents District 78?

11 A. At that time, it was Dee Margo --

12 Q. Okay. And --

13 A. -- a Republican.

14 Q. Go ahead.

15 A. A white Republican.

16 Q. A white Republican. Okay.

17 And what was the percentage SSVR, in the

18 far right column, of District 78?

19 A. 47.5.

20 Q. Okay. And then we've already talked about

21 your district, which is HD 79.

22 So it looks like under HCVAP, coming into

23 the 2011 session, that you had five out of five who were

24 over 50 percent HCVAP populations in that district.

25 Correct?

9



16:6-18:3

6 Q. And as far as SSVR percentage, four out of

7 five had over 50 percent SSVR. Correct?



10 Q. Okay. So you can put that document away.

11 I want to show you another document we

12 have that relates to the districting in H100. This also

13 is a document from the Texas Legislative Council,

14 Representative Pickett, and it is called a Red-100, and

15 it has 2010 census data as to H100. So I want you to

16 take a look with me at Exhibit No. 2, and I want to ask

17 you -- again let's focus on the House Districts 75, 76

18 77, 78 and 79.

19 All right. So this shows data in early

20 2011 regarding those districts. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And District 75 it appears had -- and

23 you can look at the deviations in the column on the

24 left. It appears that District 75 had a -- had an

25 overpopulation, based on the ideal district size, of

Page 17

1 51,771 coming in. Correct?


10



3 Q. It looks like District 76 was under by 34,922

4 voters. Correct?

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. So it was under --

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. -- by 20.83 percent. Right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Okay. It appears District 77 was -- was under

11 by 20.92 percent or 35,000 people. Correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. It appears that District 78 was over by

14 .68 percent, and that District 79 was under by 20,000

15 people or 12.21 percent. Did I get all of that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. So one of the issues -- as you come

18 into the 2011 session, was there concern in El Paso as

19 to whether or not there would be four or five districts

20 that would represent El Paso? Was that a concern of the

21 El Paso delegation?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And is it a true statement that the --

24 that in discussions with the redistricting -- with

25 Chairman Solomons or other leaders of the

11



Page 18

1 redistricting who were handling redistricting that the

2 El Paso delegation was told you will get five districts

3 from the new census numbers?

18:7-10

7 Q. Okay. So there was some -- there was a lot of

8 debate as to whether El Paso would even have five coming

9 in?

10 A. Right.

19:6-19

6 Q. And was it made clear to you by the leadership

7 of the redistricting committee that El Paso would be a

8 drop-in county?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And what did that mean to you?

11 A. That meant to me that all we had to do was

12 fight amongst ourselves.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Anything that we did wasn't a domino effect

15 with the other 145 districts of any consequence. It was

16 just us --

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. -- just the five of us needed to work this

19 out.

12



20:5-12

5 Q. Okay. And was your primary concentration,

6 during the redistricting cycle, on the El Paso House

7 districts?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Did you -- and I know you have

10 responsibilities as the chairman of other committees,

11 including transportation? Is that correct?

12 A. Homeland security –

22:1-26:23

1 Q. Okay. So if I were to ask you how lines were

2 drawn in San Antonio, for example, or Houston or Dallas,

3 Tarrant, that wouldn't be something that you would have

4 information on?

5 A. I wouldn't have any day-to-day knowledge about

6 it at all.

7 Q. Okay. And so would -- would it be a fair

8 statement to say that the influence, if any, that you

9 had on the House districting would have been with

10 respect to El Paso alone?

11 A. Just El Paso.

12 Q. Okay. So let's talk about El Paso a little

13 bit. What was the process that you utilized once you

14 realized that the El Paso delegation was going to have

13



15 to work amongst themselves to draw the five districts?

16 A. Well, having been through it a couple of times

17 and never asked my opinion, I asked the other four

18 members for their opinions and suggestions. They knew

19 that I was on the committee. They knew that the

20 chairman and I are personally close. So I don't know if

21 they thought that meant they could put things in that

22 they normally wouldn't get for that reason or whatever.

23 But, anyway, I put the word out and said

24 play with it, bring suggestions to me. I'm working on a

25 map to do that. And most of the time when I put things

Page 23

1 out like that to even just members of my committee, you

2 get little response. You don't get overwhelming

3 response.

4 Representative Quintanilla was very

5 active because one of his staff persons in his office,

6 Robert Grijalva, he was like (indicating) burning up the

7 keys on the Red Apple and coming up with stuff because

8 his district was going to lose the most. The largest

9 amount of population, somewhere about 50,000 or more,

10 were going to need to be removed from that district.

11 That district, over the last couple of

12 cycles, had gotten drawn not very community oriented.

14



13 You know, you're not supposed to do this. But one of

14 the reasons the district got so big was a former State

15 Representative that was in that district literally lived

16 blocks away from me, and so it was drawn so that he

17 could still maintain that district, but it was

18 considered one that's the valley, south of

19 Interstate 10, and the district came quite a ways up

20 into my backyard that I represented as a City Council

21 member.

22 It didn't bother me. We take all of the

23 calls. We do all of the -- most people don't know what

24 the district numbers are. Even to this day, my staff

25 answers questions from all over El Paso County because

Page 24

1 I've pretty much represented all of El Paso County.

2 So there's a lot there with

3 Mr. Quintanilla, a lot of going back and forth.

4 Q. Okay. So there were a lot of discussions

5 with -- with Representative Quintanilla?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. What other discussions did you have? I mean

8 just tell me with whom first. Who did you talk to?

9 A. And then I offered it to the other members,

10 obviously to Marisa Marquez, Naomi Gonzalez, Dee Margo.

15



11 Dee didn't have as much input. He, you

12 know, is a freshman. He just thought, you know, maybe

13 I'm not supposed to. But, you know, I encouraged him to

14 draw something. He really never did.

15 I made the offer to Marisa and Naomi.

16 Naomi didn't. She kind of paired up with Marisa. And

17 what they originally brought when they finally were

18 doing the exercise, you could tell -- I could tell that

19 she didn't have any real input, that Marisa was telling

20 her this is going to work, this is going to work.

21 I remember when Marisa brought me the

22 first map, I mean I -- I went berserk. It was -- it was

23 awful. It was so gerrymandered. I know you hear that

24 term all of the time. She had really butchered Naomi's

25 district. She butchered my district. And I remember

Page 25

1 making a comment immediately to Naomi to see if she

2 realized that -- I realized she wasn't part of the

3 process. Hers was a pretty good close race. In fact,

4 one of the winning precincts is where my mother lives.

5 It's a precinct that votes more often than not. And I

6 said do you realize that Marisa drew the two precincts

7 that got you elected out of your district, and Naomi was

8 a little surprised. She didn't blow up, but you could

16



9 tell. She was like, okay, I'm going to have to go talk

10 to Marisa about this.

11 And when I confronted Marisa about the

12 whole thing, I said that the way you've drawn this,

13 instead of you worrying about all of these people that

14 you want to draw out of your district, you just drew me

15 into yours, and she at first didn't understand. I said

16 I own property here, here, here and here. All of that

17 property is in my district. The way you've drawn this,

18 I now have property in your district and your district,

19 Naomi, and so my decision is just going to be which one

20 of you I run against. And Marisa just went deadpan and

21 quiet and then started kind of, well, I really didn't

22 draw the district, and I didn't realize, and you don't

23 have to get that mad. And she had some guy named

24 Rick Armendariz draw this for her. She was getting some

25 outside help. So now she's defending, it really wasn't

Page 26

1 me, it really wasn't me.

2 And it was like every day I'd get a list

3 of people I don't want in my district. I don't want

4 Joe Moody in my district. I hear a rumor he's moving to

5 such and such apartment complex. I don't want him in my

6 district. John Cook, the mayor, he ran for state -- I

17



7 don't want John Cook in my district. That's up here

8 northeast. I don't want -- there had to have been 12

9 names at some point of -- and I just said we can't take

10 a big bulletin board and put pins and try to draw a

11 district where none of your prospective opponents are

12 going to come from. You can't do that.

13 Q. Okay. So Ms. Marquez then told you on a

14 number of occasions that -- that she wanted particular

15 political opponents not drawn in her district?

16 A. Oh, yeah. That was -- that was the theme.

17 Q. Okay. That was the theme of how you felt her

18 plan that she presented --

19 A. That was the theme of her redistricting.

20 Every day it was a new person.

21 Q. And she told you that?

22 A. And sometimes that same person and a location

23 would change.

29:11-19


12 Q. Okay. All right. So tell me -- so I'm going

13 to show you first the benchmark plan, and it's -- I

14 think you'll be able to tell under H100. This is

15 Exhibit No. 3, and I'm going to try to get more slide on

16 this one. There you go. All right. Is this the map --

18



17 Representative Pickett, is this the district that was in

18 place coming into the 2011 session?

19 A. It looks like it.

30:1-18

1 Q. And can you just generally describe

2 District 77 for me?

3 A. 77 would be --

4 Q. It's the green one --

5 A. -- Ms. Marquez?

6 Q. -- to the south. Yes.

7 A. Yeah. It's central, downtown, some of the --

8 some of the affluent west-siders and going up towards

9 the -- the northeast on the side of the mountain. I

10 mean it's kind of the way it's been.

11 Q. And so the district as it looked in H100 had

12 an extension up over the west side of the Franklin

13 Mountains. Correct?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. It had an extension that looks like there was

16 an antenna kind of into the Franklin Mountains. Right?

17 Do you see that green in the middle?

18 A. Yeah.

33:5-18

5 Q. Okay. So the question is -- let me just ask

19



6 you what are the -- what are the geographic or physical

7 challenges to districting in El Paso?

8 A. Fort Bliss.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Fort Bliss and the mountain are really the

11 only two. The freeway isn't that big of a deal, in my

12 mind, and hasn't been on city, county redistricting,

13 state. But the mountain and Fort Bliss.

14 Q. Okay. So, I mean, as I understand it, El Paso

15 has -- is the -- is the only major urban area in the

16 United States that has a mountain right in the middle of

17 it. Is that right?


33:22-34:2

22 Q. Is there also -- you've also got other fixed

23 borders that you have to district around. You've got

24 New Mexico to the -- to the -- to the west. Correct?

25 A. Yes, the south and the west. When I

Page 34

1 represented that area, I'd have to drive into New Mexico

2 to stay in my district.

37:4-41:12

4 Q. Okay. I want to go back to sort of the

5 process that -- that the El Paso delegation went -- went

20



6 through. You first drew, as I understand it, the "H" --

7 the districts in -- in El Paso --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- and presented it to the remainder of that

10 group. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You've talked about the fact --

13 A. Well, actually, that's secondary. I asked

14 them for input --

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. -- first before I drew anything. The input

17 from one and a half members was pretty bad, and one was

18 not so bad from Mr. Quintanilla. I mean I took those

19 concerns and even the concerns with Ms. Marquez not

20 wanting so many people running against her. You know,

21 sometimes that happened, but it wasn't because of that

22 request. I mean we took the raw numbers and just kept

23 running them. I can't even tell you how many times we

24 just ran the numbers trying to keep them under all of

25 the guidelines I was given.

Page 38

1 Q. Okay. And do you recall the specific

2 guidelines you were given?

3 A. Well, yeah. Be fair.

21



4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I mean it's that simple. I mean look at

6 the -- the current numbers. In a community like El Paso

7 with extremely high Hispanic population, anything that

8 would look like you're putting the few Anglos all packed

9 in one place would be kind of a blaring --

10 Q. Potential problem?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So, I mean, that was what -- I was trying to

14 keep it spread out. I mean, in years past, as I said, I

15 was never asked to participate. Whatever person in

16 El Paso was given the authority to draw maps, we saw

17 them way after the fact. When I first got there as a

18 freshman, you know, it was like, well, let's protect

19 Haggerty and make sure we've got our -- give Haggerty

20 one and then draw everybody else and see how it works.

21 Well, that's not how I did it. Everybody's was drawn,

22 including mine. My district changed too.

23 Q. Is it fair to say that the El Paso House

24 districts that were drawn and put into Plan H283 were a

25 product of discussions amongst the entire delegation?

Page 39

1 A. Yes.

22



2 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that some members had

3 more input than others?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As far as Dee Margo, it sounds like he had

6 very little input?

7 A. He had the least.

8 Q. Okay. As far as Marisa Marquez -- well, as

9 far as you, it sounds like you had quite a bit of input?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It sounds like Marisa Marquez had quite a bit

12 of input in the discussions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It sounds like Naomi Gonzalez maybe had less

15 input?

16 A. Less.

17 Q. But -- but was she also involved in the

18 process?

19 A. Yes. But she was just mimicking whatever

20 Marquez said until the end when she saw her district

21 being changed to where it might hurt her politically.

22 Q. Okay. What about Naomi Gonzalez? How would

23 you rate -- I'm sorry. Chente Quintanilla, how would

24 you rate his? How involved was Chente Quintanilla?

25 Just was he involved or not involved?

23



Page 40

1 A. Very much through his staff. His staff --

2 Robert Grijalva was the one drawing the maps constantly

3 and -- and communicating with my staff in my office.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. So, yes, he was very active.

6 Q. Okay. In drawing your district, what was your

7 overall purpose?

8 A. My purpose of my district or the El Paso?

9 Q. First let's talk about your -- well, your

10 drawing of El Paso, what was your overall purpose?

11 A. Well, the overall purpose was to get the two

12 districts primarily, because it was the same problem we

13 had before, the declining population. The same two

14 central districts that are now represented by

15 Representative Marquez and Gonzalez were declining. We

16 saw that trend. And so it was figuring out how to

17 expand theirs. It wasn't so much taking Chente

18 Quintanilla's that was way over and just pairing it down

19 because that's so far away for most part. We couldn't

20 move 50,000 people into those two districts. So we had

21 to take those two districts, because that's where I

22 centered on, and try to figure out how to bring

24



23 population in by expanding them in the areas where there

24 was still growth and where there was stable populations,

25 because there's some areas in those central parts of

Page 41

1 town that are under change where they're pretty vacant

2 and they're not sure the city is going to reconstruct,

3 redevelop. So there was nothing to draw there. So

4 that's where I started was the central part of El Paso.

5 Q. Okay. And --

6 A. So that's why I thought it was kind of strange

7 when Marisa came to me with her map, that she's got part

8 of the west side and she's now almost in Dell city. I

9 couldn't figure that one out. That's the one that

10 pissed me off, where she drew a circle around my house

11 and then tethered it to 14 and a half miles from there

12 would be the first person's door I could knock on.

41:22-43:15

22 Q. Okay. And would you agree that -- that your

23 motivation was to draw a fair map but also potentially,

24 you know, provide a partisan friendly map?

25 A. Yes.

Page 42

1 Q. Okay. Ultimately, was there agreement by the

2 entire El Paso delegation as to the districts that were

25



3 drawn?

4 A. Yes, absolutely.

5 Q. Okay. Did Ms. Marquez come around and agree

6 to what was ultimately included in H283 in the --

7 A. She did.

8 Q. -- drawing of El Paso? Okay.

9 A. And I, like I said, have been through things

10 like this before, not just redistricting, and I asked

11 every single member to sign that map that was going to

12 be turned into the committee.

13 Q. Okay. And so as far as if we look around the

14 state at the different counties, is it a fair statement

15 to say that El Paso was an agreed-to map by the entire

16 group?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Did you at any time in drawing the

19 El Paso map intend to discriminate against any racial

20 group?


22 Q. Okay. Did anyone evidence any intention in

23 the El Paso delegation of discriminating against any

24 sort of group?


26



Page 43

1 Q. Okay. If anyone had, would you have allowed

2 that to have occurred?

3 A. Of course not.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. They already know me and they wouldn't dare

6 say that to my face so...

7 Q. Right. Are you the Hispanic candidate of

8 choice in your district?

9 A. I am.

10 Q. I want to ask a little about your background.

11 You speak Spanish; correct?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. You went to high school in El Paso. Where did

14 you go to high school?

15 A. Burges.

44:19-46:19


20 Q. Okay. I want to show you -- Chairman Pickett,

21 I'm going to hand you what we've marked as Deposition

22 Exhibit No. 6. Now, this is the -- these are the

23 population numbers from the Red-109 produced by the

24 Texas Legislative Council, and I want to go through

25 these with you.

27



Page 45

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Okay. And just as we've done on the other

3 districts, I want to look in Plan H283, which

4 incorporated the El Paso delegation's draw, and I want

5 to ask you about certain of the districts in there.

6 Okay. Now, I want you to look at

7 District 75. It appears there that the -- that the

8 percentage of Hispanic CVAP was 89 percent under H283.

9 Correct?

10 A. Let me get to it.

11 Q. Yes, sir.

12 A. 75. Okay.

13 Q. Okay. And that the percentage SSVR was 81.2.

14 Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. If we look at District 76, it

17 looks like the percentage HCVAP was 83.5 for

18 District 76. Correct?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. That's "yes"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then the "SS" -- percentage SSVR is 81.3.

23 Correct?

28



24 A. Gotcha. I'm there. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. In District 77, it looks like the

Page 46

1 percentage HCVAP was 73.4 percent. Correct?


3 Q. And the percentage SSVR was 66.4?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. If you look at District 78, it looks like the

6 percentage HCVAP was 55.2 percent?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And the percentage SSVR was 47.1. Correct?

9 A. Again, yes.

10 Q. One more. District 79 had a percentage HCVAP

11 of 76.7 percent. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then the percentage SSVR in 79 was 69.3.

14 Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So is it a true statement that with respect to

17 percentage HCVAP that all five of the El Paso districts

18 had an over 50 percent Hispanic majority HCVAP?


47:5-49:12

5 Q. And that's the same as what we had talked

29



6 about in H100 coming into the districting session.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You've talked about the geographical

10 challenges and sort of how the delegation worked

11 together.

12 Can you tell me, Representative Pickett,

13 that whether or not there -- how difficult were the

14 population deviations that we went over at the beginning

15 of this depositions as far as having to allocate those

16 populations? How much did that play into your efforts?

17 A. Well, you know, my chairman said and asked as

18 much as possible to not split any precincts. So again,

19 if you've ever done these exercises, you take a precinct

20 when and how that got created with those persons in it,

21 and sitting at a desk with -- you know, I need 1100, and

22 you've got a precinct with 7500, okay, then I need to

23 find another one with 3,000. That was the biggest

24 problem was just trying to find the number balance,

25 because that's the way we did it first. When I say

Page 48

1 "we," me and my staff. We did the pure numbers, and

2 then we would run all of the other percentages, and if

3 it didn't look like that was working, we'd come up with

30



4 the population numbers. But I based everything that I

5 did on trying to get those population numbers as close

6 as possible in all five districts. That was the plan.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. So the only reason it would be difficult is in

9 some of the areas, as you can see right here, where the

10 population gets a little bit more spread out than

11 compact. Like in the central part of El Paso where

12 there's 30-foot wide street and 1100-square-foot homes,

13 you can get a lot more people in a five-block area than

14 you can coming up the side of the mountain.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. So that was the only tough thing was trying to

17 get all of this stuff to connect.

18 The people that live in the northeast and

19 this part of the west - how do I say this - they -- they

20 always feel they've been kind of out of it

21 representation-wise because they don't necessarily have

22 somebody that lives in where they believe is their

23 center point of population.

24 Like I was always called the east side

25 rep, but I represented the northeast and the west side.

Page 49

1 I'm still called the east side rep. Now I have much

31



2 more of that. Somebody like Dee Margo was referred to

3 as the west side rep, and he has a little bit of

4 northeast. Marisa Marquez is central, but she has a

5 little bit of the northeast. That was the challenge.

6 Q. Population was?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you say population was the biggest

9 challenge that you faced in having to sort of even out

10 the deviations?

11 A. Yes. That was more difficult than -- than

12 physical barriers.

49:24-50:21

24 Q. Okay. And you've mentioned that in trying to

25 maintain population and equalization that there were

Page 50

1 times that you had to split precincts. Is that right?

2 A. We tried not to. In fact, I think we may have

3 done the exercise once and -- you know, I can't tell you

4 whether or not I submitted a map to the staff or not

5 with split precincts. My goal was to not split any

6 precincts. There was a couple of suggestions, maybe

7 even from Mr. Quintanilla's office which wasn't as

8 necessary because, as I said, they had so much

9 population there was no really need to start splitting

32



10 districts if you're way over. It's the central part of

11 town where it's a little more difficult.

12 Q. Okay. To the extent there were split

13 precincts from the old map to the new, what would be the

14 reason for those splitting?

15 A. Population.

16 Q. Okay. Let me ask you Senator Jose Rodriguez

17 is from -- is the senator from the El Paso region.

18 Correct?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. That's "yes"?

21 A. Yes. I'm sorry.

50:25-51:5

25 He -- he's -- he wasn't part of the –

Page 51

1 the discussions between the House delegation. Correct?

2 A. No. We kind of kept those separate. The idea

3 of the House and Senate is the Senate will draw theirs,

4 we'll draw ours. That's kind of been the standard. So

5 we didn't talk about Senatorial districts.

51:9-52:11

9 Q. Okay. How would you characterize the way the

10 El Paso delegation -- just as a general matter, did you

11 feel like you worked well together as a delegation in

33



12 working on this?

13 A. Sure. Under the circumstances, yes, because,

14 as I said, in the past there was no working together.

15 Whoever was given kind of the nod of the head just drew

16 the maps and we all just got to see them afterwards. So

17 this is the first time in the 20 years I've been there

18 that the entire membership was asked what their opinions

19 were.

20 Q. Okay. And did you -- and you took

21 suggestions --

22 A. I did.

23 Q. -- from all of the members. Is that correct?

24 A. I did. And even though I wasn't happy with

25 the way Marisa did the exercise, I still worked with her

Page 52

1 and, in fact, encouraged her near the end to work with

2 Dee Margo if she still thought there were some changes,

3 but by that time, it was like -- you know, it's like

4 every day. I mean, it was like something every day.

5 It's I've got one more. It's like I can't. At some

6 point, we've got to stop and present a map. When I got

7 to that point where here it is, everybody signed off on

8 it, this is one I'm presenting to the committee, and it

9 was like the next day and the next day. And I said,

34



10 well, you can work with the committee now. You can

11 present an amendment if you want, but I'm done.

53:4-12

4 Q. So -- and there was an objection to the last

5 question and so I'm going to ask it again. What were

6 the main concerns that Marquez would repeatedly come to

7 you to talk about?

8 A. Worried about prospective candidates.

9 Q. And was that her primary focus when she spoke

10 with you?

11 A. It was with me. It's my -- that was my take

12 away.

56:11-24

11 Q. And so the Court ended up redrawing the lines

12 in El Paso. Correct?

13 A. (Witness nods head.)

14 Q. That's "yes"?

15 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And the -- and then under those lines

17 then the 2012 elections were held. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Dee Margo lost in his race in 2012 to Joe

20 Moody. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

35



22 Q. And the two of them had had fairly contested

23 races. They'd had several close races. Is that right?

24 A. I think that was their third, I think.

57:5-23

5 Q. Okay. And then taking you forward to the 2013

6 session, do you recall Joe Moody and Marisa Marquez

7 moved forward with an amendment?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have a position one way or the other

10 with respect to that amendments?

11 A. No, because I wasn't looking at any detail.

12 And, again, this is kind of like the issue with Marisa

13 before. One of the two of them were looking for an

14 advantage, I'm sure, because that's the only reason why

15 you would to this. Did I sit down with them and discuss

16 it, no. It's like whatever you guys want to do. I did

17 counsel them in it's probably not going to go anywhere.

18 I mean we weren't expecting to have an active

19 redistricting session in 2013 until things got wound up

20 again and the committee was expanded. So to answer your

21 question, you know, Mr. Moody said that I'm working on

22 something and I've talked to Marisa, and I said, well,

23 good luck basically.

36



58:18-59:25

18 Q. The -- was it your belief that Marquez and

19 Moody's amendment probably was politically motivated?

20 A. I would say so, I mean.

21 Q. Okay. And you supported it because you were

22 part of a working El Paso delegation?

23 A. Yes. But politically motivated as far as,

24 again, them personally. It had to have benefitted one

25 or the other or they felt if this was passed, it would

Page 59

1 make a stronger district for them. So, yes, I guess

2 that's politically motivated. Yeah.

3 Q. Okay. So let's go back to 2011, and I just

4 want to -- I think you've already talked about this, but

5 I just want to make sure I'm clear. There was -- based

6 upon your participation in the drawing of the El Paso

7 districts, there was no intentional discrimination that

8 you saw or participated in whatsoever. Is that correct?

9 A. None.

10 MS. SITTON: Objection, asked and

11 answered --

12 MR. SWEETEN: Okay.

13 MS. SITTON: -- and it calls for a legal

14 conclusion.

37



15 Q. Okay. No one in that group, in your view,

16 intended to discriminate against anyone?

17 A. Not whatsoever.

18 MS. SITTON: Objection, asked and

19 answered.

20 Q. Let me ask generally as to 2011. Are you

21 aware of any act of intentional discrimination by the

22 Legislature --

23 A. None.

24 Q. -- in 2011?

25 A. None.

60:3-11

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to 2013, and I'll just ask you

4 these questions. Do you believe that there was any

5 intentional discrimination in the drawing of the

6 redistricting lines that you're aware of in 2013?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. It looked like you had less

9 participation in the Congressional maps. Is that

10 correct?


60:22-61:3

22 Q. Okay. And with respect to the drawing of the

23 Congressional map or negotiations in 2011, are you aware

38



24 of any intentional discrimination that occurred in the

25 drawing of that map?

Page 61

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. The same in 2013?

3 A. No.

79:4-16

4 Q. Could you -- could you mention for me who else

5 Representative Marquez was worried about?

6 A. There's -- the only two names that just

7 really, really come to mind -- because there was others

8 that I wasn't familiar with. I mean, obviously, I'm

9 very familiar with Joe Moody. I was very familiar with

10 John Cook. But there were other names, and I just --

11 I'm not sure who they were. You know, the president of

12 a moving company or somebody active. But there was, and

13 I'm not exaggerating, probably no less than six or seven

14 different people that she kept bringing up. But those

15 are were the two that I remember just because I know

16 them.

99:2-17

2 Q. From the committee guidelines, were you given

3 an exact number with regard to SSVR?

4 A. No.

39



5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I mean I come from a very high Hispanic

7 population area. To tell you the truth, I don't think

8 we were as concerned as a lot of other people are

9 talking about these numbers; and it may have been a

10 mistake on our side, but we just figured doing it that

11 way, the numbers are going to be good regardless --

12 Q. Sure.

13 A. -- and if there's some real anomaly or some

14 dip, it would show itself just in the process. So it

15 wasn't like I went in with numbers, and, no, you can't.

16 I mean you can run my district. Supposedly, I'm not

17 supposed to be elected.

101:23-102:18

23 Q. In talking with Representative Marquez, do you

24 ever remember telling her that she couldn't go -- that

25 she could only go west?

Page 102

1 A. Never.

2 Q. Do you ever remember telling her that -- when

3 she was complaining about her version of -- the version

4 of her district, do you remember telling her you'll be

5 fine?

6 A. Oh, several times.

40



7 Q. And why? Why were you telling her that?

8 A. Because she was always asking about somebody

9 being in her district, moving in her district. I said

10 you'll be fine, whoever that is. She was always worried

11 about an opponent, and I just said you'll be fine,

12 because that's what she was concerned about, because --

13 I said, for instance, why would Moody move into your

14 district, why would he want to take you on as an

15 incumbent in a primary race. I said you'll be fine.

16 Then she mentioned Cook and other people, and I said

17 you'll be fine. I mean she kept worrying about who she

18 was going to have as opponents.

117:23-118:6


24 Q. Okay. One thing I want to hand to you is

25 Exhibit No. 12, if you'd take a look at that, and we

Page 118

1 looked at this for Plan H100, which is the Red-100, but

2 I want you to take a look at it for Plan H283, and in

3 particular, obviously, I want you to look at

4 District 75, 76, 77, 78 and 79. Now -- and are you

5 there on that page, Chairman?

6 A. Yes.

41



118:15-119:13

15 Q. Let me -- let me ask it a better way. Coming

16 into the 2011 session, there were wide --

17 A. Right.

18 Q. -- variations in population in the various

19 districts?

20 A. Three down, one way up and one almost. Yeah.

21 Q. Okay. And you talked about that as being the

22 reason for some of these -- these precincts splits.

23 Correct?

24 A. For the recommendation of some, yeah.

25 Q. Yeah. The -- now I want you to look at the

Page 119

1 numbers in Plan H283 that -- and you can see the

2 deviation numbers on the left column. Do you see that?

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. It appears to me that you -- that -- that the

5 El Paso delegation was able to get all five of those

6 districts within 967 buffers, and I'm doing that from --

7 from looking at the -- the lowest to the highest.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Okay. So did you feel like that was a -- that

10 with what was incorporated in the H283 plan that you had

11 succeeded in having -- in equalizing the population of

42



12 the five districts in El Paso?

13 A. Pretty darned close.

119:16-119:21

16 Q. And as opposed to being 967 coming in to

17 the -- to the 2011 session, it was -- it was over 50,000

18 would have been the deviational amount. Correct?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. That's "yes." Right?

21 A. Yes.

120:12-121:10

12 Q. Okay. And if there was testimony from

13 Chairman Solomons that indicated that the El Paso County

14 delegation map was accepted as the delegation drew it,

15 would you have any reason to dispute that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. It looks like -- oh, you're a member of

18 MALC. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Okay. You knew that in formulating the

21 El Paso House districts that the maps would be under

22 scrutiny under the Voting Rights Act and the various

23 laws in the Constitution that governs those voting

24 rights. Correct?


43



Page 121

1 Q. And did you feel like what came out of the

2 El Paso delegation was as fair a plan -- was a fair

3 plan?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Okay. And I know you said you voted against

6 the overall map.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. You were pleased with -- with what had been

9 drawn in El Paso. Correct?

10 A. I was.

44


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations RICHARD RAYMOND

State Defendants’


Richard Raymond

1



5:10-12

10 Will you please state your full name for

11 the record.

12 A Richard Edward Pena Raymond.

17:7-21

7 Q Well, it's a good point you raised.

8 And is it your understanding that the

9 majority of Hispanic population growth in Texas over the

10 past decade or so has actually been -- not through

11 immigration from other states or other countries -- but

12 actually through native birth of people who are Texans?

13 Is that your understanding?

14 A That is my understanding, yes.

15 Q And so if that were the case, which I believe

16 it to be too, you would agree that that would mean that

17 at least some proportion of the new Hispanic population

18 would be too young to vote?

19 Would you agree with that?

20 A I just -- I -- I know that some of them are

21 too young to vote.

22:7-24:8

7 Q And let me start off by asking, do you have

8 personal knowledge of why any particular member of the

9 legislature voted in favor of the 2011 House plan?

10 A Any particular knowledge?

11 Q Any personal knowledge.

2



12 A I don't know. That's kind of a broad

13 question. I mean, I -- why they voted for it -- well,

14 again, my experience has been the Republicans voted for

15 it because they want more Republicans elected.

16 Q But with respect to the members who actually

17 voted for the 2011 House plan, do you have actual

18 personal knowledge whether it's based on a conversation

19 with them or overhearing them say why they voted for the

20 bill? Do you have personal knowledge of why anybody

21 voted for the 2011 House plan?

22 A Sure. I mean, members will -- you know, when

23 you're having that debate and that discussion, you know,

24 there -- there will be things that are said that -- you

25 know, they're not trying to deny the fact or hide the

Page 23

1 fact that they would like to pass a plan that would

2 assure them more seats.

3 I mean, that -- and so -- but can I --

4 can I tell you, you know, so-and-so came up to me and

5 said, "I'm going to vote for this plan because it

6 guarantees us more seats," well, I can't remember

7 anybody saying it like that.

8 But you have to understand, you know,

9 when you're in the legislature, you -- you talk to each

10 other a lot. You talk about a lot of personal stuff.

11 And -- and then sometimes, you know, when you disagree,

3



12 there's no -- there's no question that you disagree and

13 you -- and you sort of both understand that, and you'll

14 say things to each other about why you're voting for

15 something or why you're voting against something.

16 And in this case, you know, let's say as

17 we're going through the amendments and so forth, members

18 will indicate no, they're not going to vote for that or

19 they are going to vote for that because it will

20 strengthen their position.

21 If you're asking me to give you specific

22 names, I'm not -- I'm not going to do that because I

23 can't -- there are just too many conversations. We have

24 thousands of conversations, man.

25 Q Right.

Page 24

1 A And I can't -- so I can't -- but -- but I can

2 tell you I'm one of those members that talks to all the

3 membership. I know all the membership. And -- and so

4 there would have been several of the -- of the

5 Republicans that indicated -- that would have indicated

6 they're -- they're supporting that because they want to

7 have a stronger position in the legislature as

8 Republicans.

60:9-13

9 Q Okay. And do you have personal knowledge from

10 any source about why any particular member of the Texas

4



11 legislature voted in favor of the 2013 congressional

12 plan?

13 A A specific example, no.

101:5-6

5 Q And where do you currently reside?

6 A [REDACTED] Laredo, Texas [REDACTED].

203:17-24

17 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Interiano make any

18 racially discriminatory statement?

19 A No.

20 Q Are you aware of any statement by

21 Mr. Interiano that you believe demonstrates any racial

22 bias that he had?

23 A No. As I said, he spoke very little, at least

24 when I was around.

204:21-205:17

21 Q Well, without making any assumptions, do you

22 personally know what instructions Mr. Interiano received

23 in order to draw the maps?

24 A Well, since I saw the -- the bill that came

25 out of committee, which he, as committee clerk, wrote

5



Page 205

1 up, and it came before me, then I personally am aware of

2 what he wrote. And you're right, though. I am assuming

3 he was told to do most of that. Maybe he did it on his

4 own.

5 Q Did you ever personally see any instructions

6 that Mr. Interiano received in order to create the maps?

7 A Did I see personal instructions? I guess I

8 didn't.

9 Q Did you ever witness anyone giving

10 Mr. Interiano verbal instructions?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And who --

13 A Mr. Solomons.

14 Q Mr. Solomons.

15 Do you remember what those instructions

16 were?

17 A No.

206:16-207:2

16 Q Did you believe that Speaker Straus's door was

17 open to you if you wanted to come visit with him about

18 redistricting?

19 A Yes.

20 Q What is your opinion of Speaker Straus?

21 A What is my opinion on him?

22 Q Yes.

6



23 A Well, he's my friend.

24 Q Do you believe him to be fair?

25 A I believe he can be fair.

Page 207

1 Q Do you believe him to be an effective speaker?

2 A Yes.

207:9-11

9 Q Have you ever heard Speaker Straus make a

10 racially discriminatory statement?

11 A No.

207:18-20

18 Q Are you aware of any statement by Speaker

19 Straus that you believe demonstrates racial bias?

20 A Not specifically, no.

209:25-210:5

25 Q So as you sit here today, you can't think of

Page 210

1 any statements made by any legislators that said the

2 redistricting plan should favor Anglo voters?


4 answered.

5 A That is correct.

219:2-6

2 Q Did Chairman Darby ever make any statements

3 that would show that he had racial bias?

4 A Verbal statements or by his actions?

7



5 Q Verbal.

6 A Verbal, no.

8


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations ARMANDO RODRIGUEZ

1

State Defendants’


Armando Rodriguez



2

5:12-14

12 First could I get you to please state

13 your full name for the record?

14 A. Armando Salazar Rodriguez.

9:2-4

2 Q. And you understand that you have sworn to tell

3 the truth under penalty of perjury today, correct ?

4 A. Yes.

32:8-20

8 Q. Sure. I -- yeah. Just generally how would you

9 describe the community that you represent as a co unty

10 commissioner?

11 A. It's mostly -- majority Hispanics.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. You can say it's more middle class.

14 Q. And what part of the county is it in?

15 A. Mostly it's on the south of Ector County.

16 Q. Do you know what percentage of the people who

17 live in your precinct are Latino?

18 A. I think it's about 72, 71 -- 71 percent.

19 Q. And that's total population, 71 percent?

20 A. In my precinct –

36:6-8

6 Q. And what's the economy like in Ector County an d

7 Odessa right now?

8 A. It's booming.

36:11-16



3

11 Q. How does that affect you as a county

12 commissioner and what you have to do?

13 A. Right now it's like we have a lot of problems ,

14 shortage of houses. And people are going places that

15 it's not been developed, roads -- paved roads, a nd

16 that's a big issue.

36:21-23

21 Q. And to the extent that you know just sitting

22 here, how is the county's budget right now?

23 A. It's good right now.

42:1-3

1 Q. Okay. And I think I probably know the answer,

2 but what kinds of jobs are available right now?

3 A. Oil.

42:10-17

10 Have you ever heard anyone complain that

11 jobs in the oil industry are not being offered f airly to

12 Latino workers?

13 A. No, I haven't heard that.

14 Q. Have you ever heard any complaints about

15 discrimination against Latinos regarding employm ent in

16 the oil industry?

17 A. No, I've never.

63:6-11

6 Q. And that plan, it did get submitted to the

7 justice department for clearance, right?

8 A. Yes.



4

9 Q. Do you know whether or not the justice

10 department approved of that plan?

11 A. Yes, it did approve that plan.

64:12-65:13

12 Q. Okay. Did anybody from the Department of

13 Justice contact you to ask about the county comm ission's

14 plan after it had been submitted?

15 A. I don't know exactly, but I think that she di d.

16 Q. Do you recall discussing anything about that --

17 the plan for the county commissioner precincts? Do you

18 recall discussing the plan with somebody at the

19 Department of Justice?

20 A. I think we did discuss it a little bit. I

21 think we did discuss it.

22 Q. When you spoke to someone in the Department o f

23 Justice, did you talk about any problems or conc erns

24 that you had with the plan?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 65

1 Q. And did you mention that you thought the Latin o

2 population level in your precinct was too high?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Do you remember if the person from the

5 Department of Justice said anything in response t o that

6 or agreed or disagreed?

7 A. No. They mostly -- she just discussed -- she

8 didn't discuss it. She mentioned how high was it and



5

9 everything else, and that was it. She asked me th e

10 percentage, what I thought, which I responded to what

11 Johnson said, that there were a lot of the perma nent

12 residents that could not vote, all that percenta ge, and

13 that was it.

65:21-25

21 Do you remember when you-all were talking

22 about the population issue in your precinct did anybody

23 ever say that they were trying to make sure that every

24 precinct had the same number of voting age citiz ens?

25 A. No, I don't think so. No.

67:5-13

5 Q. I'm going to hand you what I've marked for

6 identification as Exhibit 2 and this is a printou t of a

7 newspaper article. And do you see at the top the title

8 is "Maps go back to the drawing board"?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. Okay. And this is an article by Sarah Mueller ?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. If you could just say "yes" --

13 A. Yes.

68:11-25

11 Q. Okay. So up at the top on the first page the

12 first sentence says, "Under pressure from minori ty

13 groups, Ector County Pct. 4 Commissioner Armando

14 Rodriguez changed his mind Monday evening during the

15 final public hearing about local proposed redist ricting



6

16 maps - sending the process back to the drawing b oard."

17 Did I read that accurately?

18 A. Yes, you did. Yes.

19 Q. And so am I correct that this is an article

20 about the 2011 county commissioner redistricting

21 process?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Is that accurate when they say that you

24 changed your mind during a final public hearing?

25 A. Yes.

69:5-8

5 Q. Do you recall why you changed your mind?

6 A. A lot of the minority community had brought

7 to my attention that they would like to see more

8 percentagewise go different directions.

70:1-11

1 Q. Okay. So there wasn't, you know, one group

2 like LULAC or somebody who came in and spoke out against

3 the plan. Is that right?

4 A. There was groups from there, LULAC, La

5 Voz-Unida and NCP [sic], all sorts of other group s, but

6 I don't see them as -- I see them as community le aders.

7 Q. I see. So you mentioned there was LULAC, NAACP

8 and La Voz-Unida?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.



7

74:21-23

21 Q. Did this city council map ultimately get

22 approved?

23 A. Yes.

77:4-7

4 Q. You didn't intend to discriminate against

5 African Americans in the 2011 redistricting proce ss, did

6 you?

7 A. No.

79:9-19

9 Q. Oh, what is the Ector County Redistricting Tas k

10 Force?

11 A. That's when all the other government entities

12 meet.

13 Q. I see. So that's the same group we have been

14 talking about?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And Una Voz Unida, can you tell me what

17 that organization is?

18 A. It's most -- they're speaking out for the

19 minorities, Hispanic minority's interests.

112:23-113:12

23 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe that

24 the legislature's decision to put Ector County i nto

25 House District 81 was an act of intentional raci al

Page 113

1 discrimination against Latinos?



8

2 A. No.

3 Q. Let's look back at Exhibit -- thank you. Let's

4 look back at Exhibit 5 real quick, and this is th e 2011

5 congressional map.

6 Do you know what the legislature's

7 purpose was when it enacted this map in 2011?

8 A. To get the House of Representatives districts.

9 Q. Okay. That is -- I think that makes sense.

10 Are you aware of any other purpose that the legi slature

11 had in enacting that plan?

12 A. No.

113:23-114:1

23 Q. Sure. And my question is of the people who

24 voted -- the people in the legislature who voted for

25 that plan, do you know why any one of them voted for it?

Page 114

1 A. No, I don't.

115:6-10

6 Q. Okay. Do you think that Latino voters in

7 Ector County or Latino constituents generally are

8 discriminated against by having Mike Conaway as t heir

9 representative in Congress?

10 A. No.

117:8-11

8 Q. So at the present time you don't think that

9 Latino citizens are excluded from the political p rocess

10 in Ector County?



9

11 A. No, not at this moment.

119:16-25

16 Q. Do you know whether or not Anglo voters

17 supported Ms. Davenport?

18 A. I do not know.

19 Q. Do you think that Latinos supported you in yo ur

20 last election against Ms. Davenport?

21 A. Possibility. I think so.

22 Q. Okay. And do you know whether or not African

23 American voters in Ector County supported you in your

24 last election?

25 A. I don't know.

120:3-11

3 Q. And the same question for Anglo voters. Do you

4 know whether or not Anglo voters supported you in your

5 last election?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that in your --

8 when you've run for Ector County commissioner you

9 don't -- you can't really say who voted for you? Is

10 that right?

11 A. You mostly don't know who. You don't know.

120:18-23

18 Q. Have you had African Americans support your

19 campaigns for county commissioner?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Have you also had Anglos support your



10

22 campaigns?

23 A. Yes.

123:14-21

14 Q. Have you ever -- is there any election that

15 leads you to believe that, any instance when you have

16 seen a racial division between Latino and Anglo voters?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you think that Latino officials in Ector

19 County can effectively represent Latino and Angl o

20 constituents?

21 A. Yes.

128:6-9

6 Q. Okay. So at the current time there is not a

7 problem in Ector County with not having enough Hi spanic

8 judges and election clerks, right?

9 A. Yes. At this moment, no.

131:2-15

2 Okay. So I take it that you've been an

3 elected official for a while. I take it it's pret ty

4 common for you just to talk to voters, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in those conversations sometimes you talk

7 about why somebody might not have voted, right?

8 A. Yes. Right.

9 Q. And people have told you they just didn't have

10 time, right?

11 A. Time or you had it.



11

12 Q. So when you say "you had it", people have tol d

13 you that they didn't vote because they thought t heir

14 candidate had already won?

15 A. Yes.

136:1-8

1 Q. Has anybody ever said that they weren't able t o

2 vote because Spanish language election materials were

3 not available at the polling place?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Has anybody ever told you that they didn't vot e

6 because they were afraid that somebody would hurt them

7 or fire them from their job if they voted?

8 A. No.

138:10-14

10 What about Anglo voters and African

11 American voters in Midland County? Do you know o ne way

12 or the other whether they will support Latino vo ter --

13 Latino candidates?

14 A. I think they will --


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations EDDIE RODRIGUEZ

1

State Defendants’


Eddie Rodriguez



2

7:5-10

5 Q Good morning, Representative Rodriguez.

6 Will you please state your full name for

7 the record.

8 A Sure. Eduardo Rene Rodriguez, also known as

9 Eddie Rodriguez; State Representative District 51 ,

10 Austin, Texas.

10:23-11:5

23 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) You mentioned you serve as

24 vice chairman of the Mexican American Legislativ e

25 Caucus?

Page 11

1 A That's right.

2 Q How long have you held that position?

3 A Probably 2011 was my first session

4 between [sic] that, so I was probably elected in January

5 of that year.

18:23-19:7

23 Q Okay. And please describe for me in your own

24 words what the term "tri-ethnic coalition" means .

25 A To me, it means that Anglo voters, African

Page 19

1 American voters, and Hispanic voters work togethe r to

2 elect the candidate of their choice. That -- that Anglo

3 voters in Travis County, unlike most other counti es in

4 Texas, will switch over, if that's the right word , to

5 vote for a minority candidate with the support of blacks



3

6 and Hispanic voters in Travis Coun- -- in the sam e

7 election.

20:3-21:13

3 Q And is it fair to say that these political

4 views that the members of the tri-ethnic coalitio n share

5 are -- for partisan elections, they would fall mo re on

6 the side of the democratic political view? Is tha t

7 correct?

8 A I think that's probably safe to say in

9 Travis County, though I don't really limit that a s much

10 to -- it happens to be the case in Travis County . But

11 I -- I think that it's more of a sample of a val ue

12 system and what -- what kind of policy issues ar e

13 important to -- to the people in Travis County i n that

14 coalition.

15 Q And in your experience working in politics her e

16 in Travis County and seeing the tri-ethnic coali tion at

17 work here in Travis County, have you ever seen t he

18 coalition support a republican candidate?

19 A I don't think so. But that's --

20 Q Okay.

21 A Yeah. I think that's -- but that's more in

22 my -- my view indicative of the -- of the party, of the

23 value system that this -- this coalition holds, and

24 they're going to vote for the party or individua l

25 candidate that -- that has those positions.

Page 21



4

1 Q Okay. And you mentioned that there's -- there

2 are organizations that come together, that kind o f get

3 together and lend support to specific candidates as part

4 of the coalition. What organizations are you talk ing

5 about?

6 A There could be civic organizations, they could

7 be neighborhood organizations, definitely democra tic

8 club organizations, which I'm familiar with becau se I --

9 of my -- my role in a previous life as executive

10 director of the Travis County Democratic Party, so I

11 know that world as well. But there are different , you

12 know, civic organizations, as well as democratic kind of

13 club situations.

22:2-4

2 Q And you mentioned some specific democratic

3 clubs. Can you list any of those for me?

4 A Well, yeah; the south Austin democrats.

22:11-15

11 You have central Austin democrats, you

12 have, you know, progressive democrats, capital a rea

13 democrats, black Austin democrats, and Tejano de mocrats,

14 those kind of groups. There's plenty others.

15 University democrats, and. . .

26:10-28:17

10 Q But -- okay.

11 So you mentioned -- we were -- I asked you



5

12 whether or not, when you look at the support of -- when

13 you want to see the support of the tri-ethnic

14 coalition -- I mean, I guess my question is: How do you

15 know if the tri-ethnic coalition is supporting a

16 specific candidate, or that candidate has the su pport of

17 the tri-ethnic coalition?

18 A You look at the -- the votes. You look at

19 the -- the -- the votes of the Hispanic -- the H ispanic

20 voters, the African American voters, and the Ang lo

21 voters, and see who they ended up supporting.

22 Q Could you also look at endorsement lists --

23 A You could.

24 Q -- to see, maybe, some of these specific

25 organizations to see how those specific organiza tions

Page 27

1 may have supported a particular candidate?

2 A One could do that, yeah.

3 Q Okay. And in your experience working in

4 Travis County on the political side and also bein g an

5 elected representative here, have you seen the

6 tri-ethnic coalition in some of these organizatio ns

7 split their support among candidates?

8 A It happens.

9 Q Uh-huh. And sometimes you see, maybe, some of

10 the Hispanic organizations lend their support to a

11 Hispanic candidate and maybe not -- and -- and I 'm



6

12 talking about when there's been a contested prim ary

13 election, let's say that for example.

14 Have you seen some of the -- have you seen

15 members of the coalition kind of split their sup port

16 between two different candidates in some of thos e

17 contested primary elections and countywide races ?

18 A That could happen. It could happen the other

19 way around where you'll have a Hispanic, you kno w,

20 organization that will support an Anglo candidat e as

21 well.

22 Q So it's fair to say sometimes in certain

23 elections, at least here in Travis County and so me

24 countywide elections, the Travis County coalitio n [sic]

25 may not always support the same candidate, and v oters

Page 28

1 may not always vote for the same candidate?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay.

4 A But I will say, if I can, the -- you know, in

5 the general election, if we're talking about a pr imary

6 situation, then that same coalition that may have been

7 split on a candidate will probably come together, more

8 than likely, and vote for, you know, the ultimate winner

9 of that, you know, election.

28:14-17

14 Q Okay. So we may -- so what you're saying is,

15 you may see some differences in opinion in the c oalition



7

16 in the primary election?

17 A Perhaps.

33:20-34:16

20 Q Okay. Have you done any studies regarding --

21 statistical studies regarding voting behavior in

22 Travis County showing how African Americans and

23 Hispanics lend support to particular candidates?

24 A Studies? I wouldn't say studies. I've just --

25 you know, I get a little bit wonkish with -- wit h voting

Page 34

1 numbers, as a lot of elected officials do, and so I see

2 those numbers but I've not participated in a stud y or

3 done any kind of scientific anything on it. I jus t see

4 the numbers and I, you know -- it's what it tells me --

5 Q Okay.

6 A -- is that there is that -- there is a cross --

7 that this coalition exists and it votes for -- in

8 Travis County, it votes for -- tends to vote for more

9 progressive candidates.


11 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. I'm going to hand

12 you what I'm marking as Exhibit 1 to this deposi tion.

13 A Okay. Thanks.

14 Q Representative Rodriguez, have you seen this

15 document before?

16 A Yes, I have.

35:16-25



8

16 Q Okay. And I'll represent to you that this was

17 an exhibit that was used during the Section 5

18 preclearance trial that happened in 2012 up in t he

19 District of Columbia. And I'll represent to you, too,

20 that this is a chart that shows individuals who have

21 been elected in countywide elections, as well as on the

22 last page there's a separate chart showing indiv iduals

23 who have been elected, it looks like in the nonp artisan

24 race --

25 A It did –

36:3-21

3 Q Well, I want -- I just want to focus on the --

4 the partisan elections, and that would be in the

5 first -- the very first chart in this group here.

6 A Okay.

7 Q So, the -- since you've looked at this chart,

8 can you tell me what this chart shows?

9 A It shows the election year, it shows the

10 candidate, the office that they ran for or won, and what

11 minority group that they --

12 Q Okay. So, it's fair to say that this chart is

13 just showing winners of the general election. Co rrect?


15 Q This chart doesn't show whether or not these

16 individuals ran in a contested primary, does it?

17 A This chart does not show that.

18 Q Okay. And it also doesn't show whether or not



9

19 these individuals were even in a contested gener al

20 election, does it?

21 A It does not.

37:5-9

5 Q Okay. And in countywide elections, has it been

6 your experience that there are a significant numb er of

7 contested primary elections?

8 A It -- it doesn't occur very often, but it does

9 occur.

38:18-40:11

18 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. So, I handed you

19 what has been marked as Exhibit No. 2, and I'll

20 represent to you that this shows the thirty- -- there's

21 33 total elections on this chart, which are the same

22 elections that are reflected in Exhibit No. 1. A nd I

23 went through and I counted up the number of unco ntested

24 primary elections -- I'm sorry, the number of co ntested

25 primary elections that are reflected here in Exh ibit

Page 39

1 No. 2. And out of the 33 elections that were list ed on

2 Exhibit No. 1, it appears that there were only -- there

3 were only eight individuals who actually had cont ested

4 primary elections within Travis County in these

5 countywide elections. Okay?

6 A Okay.

7 Q And then, also, over on the contested general

8 election side, I went through and counted up out of



10

9 those 33, and it appears that only 14 individuals out of

10 those 33 had and participated in a contested gen eral

11 election here within Travis County.

12 A Okay.

13 Q And I asked you earlier, I said, you know,

14 based on your experience working here in the pol itical

15 side, was it common for individuals to run in co ntested

16 primary elections.

17 And so, looking here at Exhibit No. 1 and

18 incorporating the facts of Exhibit No. 2, would you

19 agree with me that it's -- it's usually more typ ical

20 that individuals don't have a contested opponent within

21 a primary election, at least within some of thes e

22 countywide races that are reflected in this char t?

23 A I think that in this chart, if you're

24 looking -- I look at, for example, Sam Biscoe, 2 002,

25 uncontested as you have –

Page 40

1 Q Yes.

2 A -- that wasn't his first -- I don't think -- I

3 don't believe that was when he was first elected. I

4 could be wrong.

5 Q Okay.

6 A In other words, I'm cur- -- I'm wondering

7 whether some of these people actually in 2002 was not

8 their first time running.

9 Q Okay.



11

10 A And if that's the case, then there's obviously

11 a benefit to incumbency.

41:13-43:25

13 Q Okay. So, looking here at Exhibit No. 1 --

14 that was the first exhibit we looked at, this ch art --

15 it -- looking at those individuals who are liste d there,

16 would it be your opinion, analyzing this chart, that

17 those are individuals who had the support of the

18 tri-ethnic coalition in Travis County?

19 A That would be my opinion, yes.

20 Q Okay. And why -- why do you make that opinion

21 looking at this chart?

22 A These all look -- appear to be countywide, I

23 believe.

24 Q Okay. And --

25 A And –

Page 42

1 Q Go ahead.

2 A And if you look at -- and you have -- they're

3 African American/Hispanic, is what we have down h ere.

4 African Americans, in and of themselves, do not c omprise

5 the majority of the Travis County population.

6 Hispanics, in and of themselves, do not comprise the

7 majority of the voting population, let's say. And so

8 that tells me that you, obviously, need Anglo vot ers to

9 elect these people.

10 Q Okay. And those elections where we're seeing



12

11 the minority candidates win, those are just the general

12 election. And so what I want to do is, I want to look

13 at some of the primary elections --

14 A Okay.

15 Q -- for at least one individual -- or, I'm

16 sorry, one specific race that's here on this cha rt, and

17 I want to look at the 2006 county law -- county law

18 judge race, and that's the one between Judge She pperd

19 and Ms. Diaz.

20 A Okay.

21 Q And I believe that that's on page 2 -- no, it' s

22 on page -- yes, I think it's on page 2 of the Ex hibit 1.

23 MR. HICKS: Of which one? I'm sorry.

24 MS. COLMENERO: Exhibit 1.

25 A County Court at Law Judge 2?

Page 43

1 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Yes.

2 A Okay.

3 Q Okay, I'm going to hand you what I'm also

4 marking as Exhibit 3 of this deposition.


6 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) And I'll represent to you

7 that this is the joint primary election results f rom

8 March 2006 that were printed off of the Travis Co unty

9 Clerk's website.

10 A Okay.

11 Q And so if you turn to, I believe it is on



13

12 page 5 of Exhibit No. 3, and you look down at th e third

13 race from the top. It shows the primary election

14 between Judge Shepperd and Ms. Diaz. Is that cor rect?

15 A Uh-huh. Yes.

16 Q Okay. And Judge Shepperd, can you identify

17 his -- his race for us?

18 A Judge Shepperd is African American.

19 Q Okay. And Ms. Diaz, is she Hispanic?

20 A She is Hispanic.

21 Q Okay. So this would be an example of a

22 racially-contested primary election between an A frican

23 American candidate and a Hispanic candidate. Cor rect?

24 MR. HICKS: Objection; mischaracterizes

25 what it is.

44:5-46:11

5 Is it fair to say that this would be an

6 example of an election between an African America n

7 candidate and a Hispanic candidate?

8 A It is.

9 Q Okay. And looking here at the results between

10 these two candidates, it shows that Judge Sheppe rd

11 won -- or he won the primary election with 50.41 percent

12 of the vote. You see that there?

13 A I do.

14 Q Okay. And Ms. Diaz did not prevail in the

15 primary election, but she received 49.59 percent of the



14

16 vote. Is that correct?


18 Q So looking here at this election, if I wanted

19 to know who the coalition supported in this part icular

20 election, how would I -- how would I know?

21 A You'd have to go with who won the election, I

22 guess.

23 Q Okay. So, to see how the coalition support --

24 how the coalition worked, in your opinion, it's just who

25 ultimately prevailed in the -- this primary elec tion

Page 45

1 contest?

2 A Well, I think that the presumption is that the

3 coalition, it -- it prefers African Americans ove r

4 Hispanics. If that's what you're getting at, I do n't

5 think that's correct. I think the coalition has

6 supported one candidate over the other by a total of

7 152 votes, to be exact, because they thought one would

8 be a better judge than the other.

9 Q And I guess what I'm getting at is that, we

10 talked about how the coalition is typically comp osed --

11 or more aligned on the democratic side, politica lly.

12 Correct?

13 A I think that's correct.

14 Q Okay. And so looking here, when we look at

15 this democratic contest between an African Ameri can

16 candidate and a Hispanic candidate and we want t o see if



15

17 the coalition works together and supported a par ticular

18 candidate, how would we know that other than -- how

19 would we know that by looking at these results h ere?

20 MR. HICKS: Objection; vague. It isn't

21 clear whether you're saying the coalition -- whe n you

22 say "the coalition," do you mean the coalition t hat

23 votes in the general election or the primary? Wh at do

24 you mean?

25 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) I'm --

Page 46

1 MR. HICKS: That's what's unclear to me.

2 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) -- I'm talking about in

3 this primary election contest.

4 A My -- and my answer stays the same, the

5 coalition supported by 152 votes one -- who they thought

6 the better candidate was in this case.

7 Q Did -- by looking at the results here, can you

8 tell if members of the coalition supported Ms. Di az?

9 A I would have to say that members of the

10 coalition supported Ms. Diaz, and some members s upported

11 Mr. Shepperd.

47:11-20

11 Q Looking here at this -- at this race, the

12 Shepperd versus Diaz race -- I'm taking this as an

13 example -- couldn't it be the case -- or would y ou agree

14 with me that when there is a contested primary e lection

15 in Travis County, couldn't it be the case that A frican



16

16 American voters and Hispanic voters could lend s upport

17 to different candidates in a primary election?

18 MR. HICKS: Same objection; specula- --

19 calls for speculation.

20 A Sure.

48:18-49:9

18 Will you agree with me that this

19 De La Fuente race and the Wahlberg race, it was for a

20 countywide judge position here within Travis Cou nty?

21 Correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you agree with me that this is a recent

24 contested democratic primary election, it was he ld in

25 2012. Is that fair?

Page 49

1 A That's correct.

2 Q Okay. And Mr. De La Fuente was a Hispanic

3 candidate. Correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And Mr. Wahlberg was an Anglo candidate.

6 Correct?

7 A Correct.

8 Q Okay. And who won this race in the primary?

9 A Mr. Wahlberg won that race.

49:16-52:19




17

17 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) I'm handing to you what's

18 been marked as Exhibit No. 4. And I'll represent to you

19 that these are the 2012 primary election results for

20 Travis County for the democratic primary. And I' ll

21 represent to you that I pulled this information from the

22 Travis County Clerk's website.

23 And if -- let's take a look at page 4 of

24 Exhibit No. 4, which shows the results between

25 Mr. De La Fuente and Judge Wahlberg.

Page 50

1 And looking here at the democratic primary

2 election, it appears that Mr. De La Fuente lost t he

3 democratic primary contest with -- and received

4 44.30 percent of the vote. Correct?

5 A Correct.

6 Q And Mr. Wahlberg won the democratic contest in

7 the primary, and won with 55.70 percent of the vo te.

8 Correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Okay. Now, looking here at these election

11 results in this recent primary election, how do I know

12 who the tri-ethnic coalition supported in this

13 countywide election?

14 A I would argue that the -- the tri-ethnic

15 coalition supported the winner of this election.

16 Q Okay. And how do you know that?

17 A Because it's -- because it's democratic



18

18 primary, for one. And, also, Mr. Wahlberg, if I recall

19 correctly, had a lot of support of the African A merican

20 community and had a number of Hispanic -- Hispan ic

21 support as well.

22 Q And, you know, given your experience working

23 here in Travis County politics, how would one kn ow -- or

24 how would you know that Mr. Wahlberg had the sup port of

25 Hispanics -- the Hispanic voters who are part of the

Page 51

1 tri-ethnic coalition?

2 A This was a little while ago, but I -- I think

3 if you looked at his supporter lists that he had, you'll

4 show a deal of diversity in his support.

5 Q Okay. And I want to take a look at one of

6 those that I have here with me. And I'm going to show

7 you what I'm marking as Exhibit No. 5 of this

8 deposition.


10 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) And I'll represent to you

11 that this is a document that's from the Burnt Or ange

12 Report, and it shows a list of endorsements in t he 2012

13 Travis County democratic primary election.

14 A Okay.

15 Q And I just want to kind of use this as a

16 starting point for our discussion regarding some of the

17 Hispanic voting base that may have supported

18 Mr. Wahlberg. And I want to take a look down at one of



19

19 the democratic organizations that's listed on th e first

20 page of this report, which is Exhibit No. 5, jus t for

21 the record, and it shows that -- the Austin Teja no

22 democrats. And if you look over to see who the A ustin

23 Tejano democrats endorsed for the countywide rac e for

24 the 167th Court, who does it say they endorsed?

25 A De La Fuente.

Page 52

1 Q Okay. And if we look to see who the Hispanic

2 Bar Association of Austin endorsed for the 167th Court

3 race in 2012, who did they endorse?

4 A De La Fuente.

5 Q Okay. And just to also look -- when you look

6 at the -- the Af- -- well, the black Austin democ ratic

7 organization, who does it say that they endorsed for the

8 hundred and seventy-sev- -- hundred and seven- -- I

9 can't even talk -- 167th Judicial District race?

10 A De La Fuente.

11 Q Okay. And also taking -- looking down further

12 for the Austin Black Lawyers Association, who di d they

13 endorse for the 167th Court race?

14 A Where is that one? Austin Black Lawyers?

15 Q It's right above the Hispanic Bar

16 Association --

17 A Oh, okay.

18 Q -- of Austin.

19 A I see it now. De La Fuente.



20

53:1-23

1 Q Okay. Well, you mentioned that there are some

2 organizations that lend support to particular can didates

3 in different elections within Travis County. Corr ect?

4 A Sure. Yes.

5 Q Okay. So the Austin Tejano democrats, you

6 know, are -- would you consider them a democratic

7 organization comprised of Hispanic members who ha ve

8 interest related to the Hispanic community?

9 A Yes. They also have Anglo members, but yes.

10 Q Okay. And it's fair to say that they endorse

11 the Hispanic candidate in this primary election.

12 Correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Okay. It's fair to say that the Mexican

15 American democratic -- the -- the Hispanic Bar

16 Association of Austin also endorsed the Hispanic

17 candidate as well?

18 A Correct.

19 Q And I missed one, which is the Mexican America n

20 democrats, which is also on that list there on p age 1.

21 And they, in fact, also endorsed Mr. De La Fuent e in the

22 primary election. Correct?

23 A Correct.

55:9-56:5

9 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. Well, you know,

10 looking here at this race between Mr. De La Fuen te and



21

11 Mr. Wahlberg, just looking at the primary electi on

12 results here, we can't tell how many Hispanic vo ters

13 within Travis County voted for Mr. Wahlberg in t his

14 election, can we?

15 A Not with the document you provided me, no.

16 Q Okay. You can't tell whether or not

17 democratic -- democratic voters who are Anglo le nded any

18 support to Mr. De La Fuente, can you?

19 A Not with this document you gave me, no.

20 Q Okay. And nor can you tell whether or not

21 African American voters within Travis County len ded any

22 support to Mr. De La Fuente in this primary elec tion

23 contest, can you?

24 A Not with this document, no.

25 Q Okay. And so all we know is that Mr. Wahlberg

Page 56

1 wins the primary election contest with 55 percent of the

2 vote, and it's fair to say he wins, and it's your

3 testimony that he wins because he had the support of the

4 tri-ethnic coalition?

5 A That's my position.

57:11-58:2

11 Q Okay. But it's also fair to say that -- using

12 this particular race as an example -- that there may

13 have been voters within the tri-ethnic coalition who may

14 not have lended support to Mr. Wahlberg in this

15 particular race. Correct?



22

16 A True.

17 Q Okay.

18 A Now, the coalition does not vote as a unified

19 thing. It doesn't just vote 100 percent with one

20 person.

21 Q So, would it be fair to say that sometimes

22 there's not, kind of, perfect cohesion among all the

23 different voters within the tri-ethnic coalition , in

24 particular, countywide races in Travis County?

25 A If there was a way to get perfect cohesion of

Page 58

1 this voting block, I would have figured -- tried to

2 figure that out a long time ago.

59:1-5

1 Q It's been a while. And is it -- I think I saw

2 in your prior testimony that one of the plans tha t you

3 publically lended support to was Plan C166, which was

4 the Dukes plan. Does that sound familiar?

5 A That sounds familiar.

60:2-61:7

2 Q Okay. And did you provide any instructions, or

3 did you participate in the process to help create

4 Plan 166?

5 A Yeah, I worked closely with Dawnna on it. You

6 know, I used my -- the Red Apple system that -- t hat we

7 have in my office as well. So I collaborated with her

8 on that.



23

9 Q Do you recall the types of issues that you were

10 concerned about during the -- these collaboratio n

11 process with Ms. Dukes?

12 A Yeah. The main -- the main issue -- there were

13 two. The main one is trying to keep Travis Count y as

14 whole as possible so that the coalition that we have can

15 elect the candidate of its choice in that -- wha t's

16 predominantly Travis County, and also to create another

17 minority opportunity district.

18 Q Okay. So just to kind of sum it up, is it fair

19 to say that your goal in your collaborations wit h

20 Ms. Dukes, that -- in the plan that ultimately b ecame

21 166, that y'all's goal was to basically keep

22 Travis County in almost a -- in a -- in a singul ar

23 Congressional district, or the majority of it?

24 A Majority of it, yes. But there was -- I think

25 just -- hand in hand with that is -- is ensuring that

Page 61

1 we -- we create another Hispanic opportunity dist rict,

2 which it was kind of that tradeoff. That was the

3 excuse -- or reason given, I should say, for the

4 San Antonio, Austin, and also splitting up Travis

5 County, was the need to create one. And so if we were

6 going to try to keep Travis County as whole as po ssible,

7 we needed to create another one.

62:7-24

7 Q Besides you and Ms. Dukes collaborating on



24

8 Plan C166, was there anyone else that you can ide ntify

9 by name that would have provided input into the p lan?

10 A I mean, all of the Delegation had some. You

11 know, we talked about it just because we wanted to make

12 sure we were all on the same page.

13 Q And you're referring to the Travis County --

14 A The Travis County --

15 Q -- Delegation?

16 A -- Delegation, yes.

17 Q Okay.

18 A Yeah, I mean, I -- you know, a gentleman named

19 Joe Hamill who worked for Congressman Doggett, w e did

20 talk to him at times and let him know what we we re

21 thinking, what we wanted to do. It was kind of

22 periphery. I mean, it wasn't like, you know -- w e drew

23 the maps, we'd talk about it with him, mention w hat we

24 were trying to do.

63:17-23

17 Q And just to help refresh your memory, I'll jus t

18 go ahead and mark that as Exhibit No. 6.


20 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) And what this is, this is a

21 plan of -- it's a map of C166. And I've also att ached a

22 Red 116 Report, which is the American Community --

23 Community Survey Special Tabulation Report.

64:6-68:19

6 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) So looking at map C166, I



25

7 just want to help you refresh your memory and let the

8 record be clear. It looks like there is -- when y ou're

9 referring to, kind of, this proposal for Travis C ounty,

10 are you referring to, kind of, the configuration of the

11 way District 25 in Plan C166 is configured?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay. And it looks as though in Plan C166,

14 that CD25, basically, would encompass a large po rtion of

15 Travis County. Is that fair to say?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Okay.

18 A The population -- certainly, the population in

19 Travis County.

20 Q Okay. And in terms of what C166 -- you

21 mentioned that there was -- y'all also wanted to create

22 an additional Hispanic opportunity district. Loo king at

23 C166, can you tell me where that additional Hisp anic

24 opportunity district that you created is?

25 A I think it's 34 -- I think.

Page 65

1 Q Okay.

2 A I'm trying to -- is this -- the numbers are

3 here on the second page?

4 Q Sure. And -- and I'll help you out. And just

5 to kind of speed us along, if you look at the Red 116

6 Report that I've marked as part of Exhibit 166 [s ic],

7 I'm going to look at Hispanic CVAP district -- Hi spanic



26

8 CVAP that is over 50 percent --

9 A Yes.

10 Q -- for these districts. And I'll identify

11 those districts for us and see if we can agree o n those.

12 I've identified District 15. Do you see

13 that? Will you agree that's over 50 percent of C VAP?

14 A Yes, uh-huh.

15 Q District 16, over 50 percent HCVAP. Correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Okay. District 20, over 50 percent HCVAP.

18 Correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q District 23, over 50 percent HCVAP. Correct?

21 A Sorry. Yep.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Yes.

24 Q District 28, over 50 percent HCVAP. Is that

25 fair?

Page 66

1 A Yes.

2 Q Okay. And then looking down, District 33, over

3 50 percent HCVAP. Is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. So, it looks as though --

6 A And you're also -- sorry.

7 Q Oh.

8 A Twenty-seven is also the 50 percent --



27

9 Q Oh, you are correct. Thank you.

10 So, when we count up the number of

11 districts that are 50 percent plus HCVAP, we get -- we

12 get seven His- -- seven districts that are 50 pe rcent

13 plus HCVAP. Correct?

14 A Correct.

15 Q Okay. Did you do any comparisons to --

16 comparing Plan C166 to Plan C185?

17 A Yes. Can I -- may I say something really

18 quick?

19 Q Yes.

20 A The -- looking back at this, I believe it

21 was -- 33 was the one that we tr- -- that -- tha t

22 Ms. Dukes and I looked at trying to create anoth er

23 Hispanic opportunity district.

24 Q Okay. And that's the district that kind of

25 starts down at the Texas Rio Grande Valley –

Page 67

1 A Yes.

2 Q -- kind of goes up to the corner of Bexar

3 County?

4 A Correct. And then --

5 Q And then --

6 A -- back around.

7 Q -- back around?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Okay.



28

10 A I just wanted to clarify that.

11 Q Perfect. Thank you.

12 And then just to -- for the -- so the

13 record's clear, it looks like CD25 in Plan 166, the

14 HCVAP for that district is 24.8 percent. Correct ?

15 A Correct.

16 Q The Black HCVAP is 10.4 percent?

17 A Correct.

18 Q Okay. And then you scroll over to the White

19 Alone data set, and it shows that that is at


21 A Correct.

22 Q Okay. So I just wanted to clarify, there's --

23 there appears to be seven districts that are 50 percent

24 HCVAP in this Plan C166. Correct?

25 A Correct.

Page 68

1 Q Okay. Did -- and I asked you if you had

2 compared your Plan C166 to the Legislature's plan , which

3 was C185?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. What were the differences that you saw,

6 and -- in these two plans?

7 A I don't remember.

8 Q Okay. I'll -- you know, I got it, so I'll show

9 you.

10 A Okay. Yeah.



29


12 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. I handed you what I

13 marked as Exhibit No. 7, which is a map of Congr essional

14 Plan C185, which was the pan -- plan passed by t he

15 Legislature in 2011. And I also attached to exhi bit --

16 the map of C185 and part of Exhibit No. 7, is th e

17 Red 116 Report that shows the American Community Survey

18 Special Tabulation. Do you see that?

19 A Yes.

68:25-69:4

25 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Looking at Plan 166, I

Page 69

1 asked you, what were the differences that you saw in

2 your plan that you were proposing or you supporte d

3 versus the plan that was passed by the Legislatur e in

4 C185.

69:24-72:22

24 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Let's focus on

25 Travis County.

Page 70

1 A Okay. Yeah. Are you talking -- are you

2 talking about the numbers? Or are you talking abo ut

3 the -- the areas that the districts cover? Or --

4 Q Let's talk about the configuration of the

5 districts.

6 A Okay. So the -- so Plan 185, which was the

7 plan that passed the Legislature?



30

8 MR. HICKS: Yes.

9 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Yes.

10 A This one. Has -- District 35, which goes from

11 south central, I guess, San Antonio/Bexar County .

12 Q Yes.

13 A Goes through Comal County, follows,

14 essentially, I-35 up to Travis County, and takes in,

15 virtually, all of my legislative district and a majority

16 of Representative Dawnna Dukes' district. Our -- our

17 Legislative House districts are kind of included there.

18 Q Okay.

19 A And then in the -- in Plan 166, which is the

20 one that Representative Dukes and I worked on, a nd to

21 some extent, the Delegation worked on, is dis- - - the

22 district in Travis County is now -- is District 25,

23 which looked more like -- perhaps, it looked a l ittle

24 bit more like it looked before, which has Distri ct 25

25 representing a vast majority of the popul- -- of the

Page 71

1 Travis County population.

2 Q Okay.

3 A And it has central Travis County, east

4 Travis County, near the coun- -- up to the county line

5 of Williamson County.

6 Q Okay.

7 A So it's all wholly comprised in Travis County.

8 Q I understand one of the claims that -- that



31

9 you, as a plaintiff in this case, is -- that you' re

10 making is that Plan C185 fragments voters within the

11 Travis County area.

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q And can you describe for me the basis for your

14 claim regarding this fragmentation of voters wit hin the

15 Travis County plan?

16 A Well, the -- in Travis County, in Plan 185,

17 there -- one, two, three, four -- is it -- maybe even

18 five districts in Travis County. So you would ha ve 35,

19 which has the eastern, kind of, half of Travis C ounty in

20 one, which -- which is actually anchored in San Antonio,

21 I believe, by population. Then you have the rura l area

22 of Travis County in District 25 that goes down t o

23 encompass half of Hays County.

24 Q Are there particular areas within the Austin

25 area -- I mean, just focusing on -- in Austin.

Page 72

1 A Okay.

2 Q Are there particular areas where you contend

3 where voters are fragmented in the Legislature's plan

4 when we look at the new configuration of CD35 in

5 Plan C185?

6 A Are you asking which districts would --

7 Q I'm asking --

8 A -- constitute a --

9 Q -- you for particular areas within the city.



32

10 Do you -- or -- do you contend that there are pa rticular

11 areas that you can identify where this fragmenta tion has

12 occurred?

13 A I -- I would have to say almost everywhere. I

14 mean, the -- the -- where 21 and 25 kind of meet in

15 the -- in the middle of Travis County, and where 35

16 meets around that same area, and 10 is -- and wh ere 10

17 meets in -- almost in that central area is -- th at's

18 the -- the heart of Austin. I mean, the -- I don 't know

19 how else to say that other than the coalition th at

20 ex- -- I believe exists is in those -- is actual ly, to

21 some level or another, is in -- is in all four o f those

22 districts.

74:13-23

13 Q Okay. And would you agree with me that the

14 stated goal of CD35 in Plan C185 was to try to c reate a

15 district that would be predominantly Hispanic?

16 A Correct.

17 Q Okay. And if you look at the next page on --

18 of Exhibit 7, which shows the American Community Survey

19 Special Tabulation, and if you look on the secon d page

20 of that document and you look at the data set fo r CD35,

21 you'd agree with me that the Hispanic CVAP for t hat

22 district is at 52.1 percent Hispanic. Correct?

23 A Yes, I do.

75:1-77:5

1 Q That would be a district that is over



33

2 50 percent plus Hispanic. Correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Okay. And -- and just so we can kind of go

5 through this like we did for Plan C166, you would --

6 looking at the data set here, would you agree wit h me

7 that District 15 is a district that's 50 percent plus

8 Hispanic? It's on the first page of that data.

9 A 71.6; yes.

10 Q Yes.

11 District -- District 16 is at

12 73.4 percent. Correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q District 20's at 63.4 percent. Correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q Okay. District 23 is at 59.8 percent.

17 Correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay. And District 28 is at 68 percent.

20 Correct?

21 A Correct.

22 Q Twenty-nine's at 59 percent. Correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And District 34 is at 74.6 --

25 A Correct.

Page 76

1 Q -- percent. Correct?

2 A Uh-huh.



34

3 Q Okay. And so those are all districts that

4 would also be 50 -- 50 percent plus HCVAP. Correc t?

5 A Correct.

6 Q And so if we count up those districts -- the

7 number of those districts that were in Plan C185 and --

8 we would get eight Hispanic districts. Would you agree

9 with that?

10 MR. HICKS: Objection; that --

11 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Or eight 50 percent plus

12 HCVAP districts. Correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Okay. And so if we look and compare that to

15 Plan C166, it would appear that C185 creates one more

16 50 percent plus HCVAP district than -- than Plan 166.

17 Correct?

18 A I guess just looking at those two maps, that's

19 correct.

20 Q Okay. Was Plan 166 presented to the public

21 during any committee hearings, that you recall?

22 A I believe it was a floor amendment.

23 Q Okay. So would that mean that members of the

24 public didn't have an opportunity to comment on

25 Plan C166?

Page 77

1 A There are opportunities for -- well, not in

2 this particular plan. There were members -- there were



35

3 opportunities for members of the public, probably , to

4 comment on 18- -- 185 with some of the same conce rns

5 that this was probably meant to address.

79:20-80:4

20 Q Okay. So in Plan C185, which creates CD35

21 which is the district from Travis to Bexar Count y --

22 A Uh-huh.

23 Q -- do you agree that the creation of that

24 district, which is in a -- in a district that ha s

25 50 percent plus HCVAP, is positive?

Page 80

1 A I --

2 MR. HICKS: Objection; vague.

3 A I think that having a district that has a lot

4 of Hispanic voters in it is a positive thing; yes .

81:25-82:20

25 Q Okay. And I'll just go ahead, so that the

Page 82

1 record's clean, show you a copy of Plan C235, and also

2 give you a copy of the American Community Special Survey

3 Tabulation.


5 MR. HICKS: This is exhibit what, now?

6 MS. COLMENERO: Exhibit 8.

7 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. So at least -- if we

8 focus on, kind of, the Central Texas configuratio n of

9 districts, and then kind of go into the southern region



36

10 of the state, would you agree with me when you l ook at

11 Plan C185 and compare it to Plan C235, that, kin d of,

12 within that Travis County Central Texas area, th e

13 configuration of those districts remain the same ? And

14 I'm -- I'm focusing on CD35, CD21, CD15, those a reas.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. And, in fact, CD35 is configured exactly

17 the same as it was in Plan C185. Is that fair?

18 A Yes.

19 MR. HICKS: You mean in Travis County?

20 MS. COLMENERO: In Travis County, yes.

83:2-23

2 Q Okay. And that the Legislature adopted

3 Plan C235 after conducting some field hearings

4 throughout the state. Do you recall that?

5 A I kind -- vaguely. I think that's right, yeah.

6 Q Okay. Did you attend any of those field

7 hearings?

8 A I don't believe I did.

9 Q Okay. You didn't testify at any --

10 A I don't recall testifying in any --

11 Q Okay.

12 A -- hearing.

13 Q And the Legislature also held committee

14 hearings regarding Plan C235 during that special

15 session. Correct?

16 A Correct.



37

17 Q Okay. And the Legislature adopted this plan

18 after considering amendments that were put forth by

19 different legislatures. Correct?

20 A Correct.

21 Q And, in fact, you, yourself, introduced an

22 amendment on the floor to Plan C235. Correct?

23 A I believe that's right.

84:1-12

1 Q -- and I think the designated number was

2 Plan C245. Does that sound correct?

3 A Sounds familiar.

4 Q Okay. Why did you introduce the Watson plan on

5 the floor of the House? What was it trying to

6 accomplish that --

7 A I -- my -- yeah, all this is really kind of

8 going -- coming together. I believe that the -- w hat

9 we're -- what the -- the intent was, was to try t o

10 accomplish much the same thing as Representative Dukes

11 and I were trying to accomplish the previous tim e out,

12 which was the Plan 166, I guess.

84:22-87:6

22 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) That's Exhibit No. 9 that

23 I'm handing you, which is a copy of Plan C245, a s well

24 as a copy of the corresponding American Communit y Survey

25 Tabulation Report.

Page 85

1 Okay. So, Representative Rodriguez, is



38

2 this a copy of the Watson plan that you offered o n the

3 floor of the House during the special session in 2013?

4 A I'm trying to remember. Just a second.

5 If I recall -- I don't know if I actually

6 ever offered it on the floor of the House. I thin k

7 that --

8 Q There was a discussion about it?

9 A -- there was a discussion about it, and I

10 can -- and I believe that I ended up not offerin g

11 that -- this map.

12 Q Okay. And I just want to focus on just the

13 Central Texas Travis County configurations of th e

14 districts. It looks like this map creates a dist rict

15 that also goes from Travis County down to, looks like

16 the edge of Comal County, down to Caldwell and G onzales.

17 And that is, kind of, a new district that it app ears to

18 create. Correct?

19 A Correct.

20 Q Okay. And just so we have it in the record, if

21 you flip to the A- -- the ACS Special Tabulation Report

22 and we look at the statistics for Plan C245, the

23 Hispanic CVAP for that district, CD35, is 31.6 p ercent.

24 Correct?

25 A Correct.

Page 86

1 Q Okay. And we look at the Black CVAP, that's at




39

3 A Correct.

4 Q And then you look at the White CVAP, that's at


6 A Correct.

7 Q Okay. So, it's fair to say this -- this map

8 also, kind of, attempts to create kind of a

9 Travis County I-35 district as well. Correct?

10 A It tries to create a Travis County-centered

11 district --

12 Q Okay.

13 A -- that also -- that really has to go into

14 Caldwell County and -- is that Gonzales County - - yep --

15 to make -- to get the population needed.

16 Q And it's fair to say this district is not a

17 district that would be 50 percent plus HCVAP. Co rrect?

18 A That is correct. But District 34, which was

19 the one that wat- -- Senator Watson and I, I gue ss were

20 trying to create, is a 58.6 percent Hispanic --

21 Q And that's a map that --

22 A -- CVAP.

23 Q -- starts down at the coast --

24 A Corpus Christi.

25 Q -- near Corpus?

Page 87

1 A Uh-huh.

2 Q And Nueces County goes all the way up splitting

3 C County [sic], (indecipherable) County, encompas ses



40

4 Guadalupe County, and then kind of goes down into Bexar

5 County. Correct?

6 A That's correct.

87:13-89:10

13 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Was there a formal vote

14 taken on the House floor regarding the House's

15 consideration of Plan C245?

16 A That was not an official vote taken.

17 Q Okay. So, it's fair to say you just offered

18 it, there was a discussion, and then it was with drawn?

19 A Then it was withdrawn, correct.

20 Q Why was it withdrawn?

21 A Because I had talked to some of the members of

22 what -- you know, of the -- of the -- Corpus is in --

23 Nueces County Delegation, because it affects

24 Nueces County and it was something that they jus t needed

25 more time to look at and weren't sure if they wa nted

Page 88

1 that. And so -- and with respect to them and to b e

2 respectful of them, I decided not to -- I decided to

3 have the conversation to talk about, you know, th e

4 grievances that we had here in Travis County, wha t

5 happens to the minority population in Travis Coun ty,

6 coalition district. And instead of having to vote and

7 running the risk of just having this -- this figh t, we

8 just decided to -- I decided to just blow it down .

9 Q And what were some of the concerns that were



41

10 expressed regarding the Nueces County --

11 A The --

12 Q -- issue?

13 A -- the main thing is that they -- it was new t o

14 them. They -- it wasn't something that -- that

15 Nueces County had been looking at at all. It was just

16 something that -- that I -- I looked at, and I g uess

17 Senator Watson did as well, as to try to create a

18 district, and that was one way to do it.

19 But it was done relatively within a short

20 period of time, so there wasn't a lot of time fo r

21 discussion. So it was more of a 'we haven't had enough

22 time to look at this' kind of thing 'to see if i t's a

23 good thing for us'.

24 Q Okay. And would you agree with me that

25 Plan C245, one of -- would it -- one of its goal s -- or

Page 89

1 one of -- would one of its goals, in your opinion , be to

2 kind of maintain that coalition of voters in

3 Travis County that you believe exist there?

4 A That was one of the goals.

5 Q Okay.

6 A The main -- that was one of the main goals,

7 with the other one being, of course, that we want to

8 create a Hispanic opportunity district --

9 Q Okay.

10 A -- or a minority opportunity district.



42

95:14-24

14 Q Who originally proposed the concept for the

15 Latino majority district running from Travis Cou nty to

16 San Antonio?

17 A Back in 2003?

18 Q 2011.

19 A Oh, there was that one as well?

20 Q Uh-huh.

21 A That was similar to the 2003 one. I don't

22 know. I believe it was -- I think it was -- may have

23 been MALDEF, perhaps.


96:16-97:5

16 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) And I'll -- I've handed yo u

17 what I've marked as Exhibit 12, which shows that it was

18 Plan C122 --

19 A Oh.

20 Q -- which is the Congressional proposal by

21 MALDEF. Do you see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And that shows a district that runs from

24 Travis County down to Bexar County, doesn't it?

25 A Yes.

Page 97

1 Q Okay. And so you agree with me that it was

2 MALDEF that put forth a concept for this district



43

3 running from Travis County along the I-35 corrido r down

4 to San Antonio. Correct?

5 A Correct.

97:11-97:19

11 Q So, are you aware that after the Legislature

12 enacted the Congressional map, which was C185, a nd even

13 after litigation started regarding the legislati ve plan,

14 that MALDEF continued to advocate for its own ve rsion of

15 the Congressional map, in -- but in their altern ative

16 versions, it continued to propose to keep CD35, as

17 reflected in Plan C185, exactly the same as it w as in

18 the legislative plan?

19 A I think I'm aware of that, yeah.

97:23-98:1

23 And, in fact, the version of CD35 that

24 existed in Plan C185 passed by the Legislature i n 2011

25 exists today in Plan C235. Correct?

Page 98

1 A I think that's right.

112:13-23

13 Q So, it's fair to say that you don't know

14 whether any member of the Texas House voted in f avor of

15 Plan C185 because he or she wanted to discrimina te

16 against African American or Latino voters?

17 A That's fair to say.

18 Q Okay. Is it fair to say, too, with respect to

19 the Texas Senate, that you have -- you don't kno w



44

20 whether any member of the Texas Senate voted in favor of

21 Plan C185 or Plan C235 because he or she wanted to

22 discriminate against Latino or African American voters?

23 A That's fair to say.

113:1-114:16

1 2012 election that occurred under

2 Plan C235, and specifically looking at CD35,

3 Congressman Doggett ultimately won CD35 under the

4 court-drawn interim plan. Correct?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Okay. And in that election, Mr. --

7 Congressman Doggett ran in a contested primary ag ainst a

8 Latina candidate from Bexar County. Correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Okay. And Mr. Doggett won that primary

11 election. Correct?

12 A Correct.

13 Q And he was -- eventually won the general

14 election. Correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q Okay. And do you believe that

17 Congressman Doggett has done a good job of repre senting

18 you in this new Congressional district?

19 A Yes. Well, he's been my congressman almost

20 since I -- I think since I moved to Austin, and I --

21 well, that's not true because he wasn't congress man

22 then. But he's been my congressman since he's be en a



45

23 congressman from Austin.

24 Q So even though he now represents a portion of

25 Travis County and individuals all along the I-35

Page 114

1 corridor going into Bexar County, he's able to re present

2 the interest, you know -- you believe, as one of his

3 constituents, he's doing a good job of representi ng the

4 interest of all of his constituents. Is that --

5 A I would say that. I -- I would also say that,

6 you know, he's got to split his time much more ev enly

7 between San Antonio and Austin and in between, so he --

8 he spends less time in Austin, probably, than he

9 normally -- than he has in the past.

10 Q But as one of his constituents, you feel like

11 he's representing the needs of the Travis County

12 individuals he represents?

13 A I have no complaints about his voting record.

14 Q Okay. He hasn't ignored the interest of

15 constituents in Travis County. Correct?

16 A I believe that to be true.

115:12-16

12 Q. (BY MS. COLMENERO) Okay. And would you say

13 that Congressman Doggett has represented the Lat ino

14 population that exist here within Travis County well

15 since he's been elected in CD35?

16 A Yes; and before that.

117:11-19



46

11 Do you recall there being an amendment

12 that you offered on the House floor regarding th e

13 Travis County configuration of districts in the House

14 plan?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And was this an amendment regarding some

17 precincts in your district and a precinct in

18 Representative Dukes' district?


119:3-14

3 Q Okay. And this amendment that you offered

4 during the floor debates in the 2011 legislative

5 session, it was eventually -- it was accepted by members

6 of the House. Correct?

7 A Correct.

8 Q Okay. And were you satisfied with the

9 Travis County configuration of the districts as t hey

10 existed in the House plan that was passed by the

11 Legislature in 2011? And that would have been

12 Plan C283.

13 A Yes. The way -- that's the current

14 configuration, if I'm not mistaken.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations JOSE RODRIGUEZ

1

State Defendants’


Jose Rodriguez



2

7:2-4

2 JOSE RODRIGUEZ

3 having been first duly sworn,

4 testified as follows:

9:10-10:3

10 Q. Okay. Very good. Now, I want to get

11 something out of the way, which is that you have a

12 relationship with MALDEF.

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Okay. And you have -- in fact, you were

15 on the board of directors for MALDEF for

16 approximately 13 years or more.

17 A. And I still am.

18 Q. You still are a board member of MALDEF,

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Okay. You also -- and Mr. Figueroa is

22 your chief of staff, and he's sitting down the t able

23 from you, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you understand that Mr. Figueroa for

Page 10

1 approximately eight years was a legislative attor ney

2 for MALDEF as well, correct?


10:14-11:24

14 Q. MALDEF is counsel for the plaintiffs,



3

15 the Texas Latino Redistricting Task Force, corre ct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Ms. Perales represents those groups

18 in this lawsuit, correct?


20 Q. Now, MALC is also a party to this

21 litigation, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you've been involved -- are you

24 currently a member of MALC?

25 A. Well, you know what? I am not sure if I

Page 11

1 am or not in terms of paying dues. I've been

2 involved with MALC for many years, even before I

3 became senator, supporting them whenever they wou ld

4 come out to El Paso and do fundraisers out there for

5 the organization. I support their goals and their

6 mission.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. But I quite honestly can't recall

9 whether I pay them dues right now to be a dues pa id

10 member, but I still have -- if the question is a re

11 you supportive of MALC and its mission, the answ er

12 is yes.

13 Q. Okay. And MALC is also a plaintiff to

14 this --

15 A. Yes.



4

16 Q. -- in this lawsuit, correct?

17 MALC -- you've contributed money in

18 the past to MALC.


20 Q. Okay. You've attended MALC functions?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And this was even before you were a

23 senator, correct?


12:17-13:19

17 Q. Very good. Now, I want to talk a little

18 bit about -- you've been disclosed as having

19 testimony about the House plans in El Paso.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I want to start -- and I'm going to

22 go over some -- I've got some questions regardin g

23 the 2011 House plan and the districts as they

24 existed before that time --

25 A. Yes.

Page 13

1 Q. -- as well as the districts that existed

2 after the legislature met in 2011. Okay?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Now, first of all, you were not -- you

5 first became a senator and a member of the Texas

6 legislature in 2011, right?




5

8 Q. You were not involved in state

9 redistricting efforts prior to 2011, right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. That was your freshman term?


13 Q. Okay. And one of the things that you

14 knew in the 2011 redistricting session was that the

15 House districts had been -- that were in place

16 starting, you know, in the 2011 session, the

17 benchmark plans, had been in place since

18 approximately 2001, correct?


14:1-13

1 Q. So you understood my question to mean

2 House plan, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So the House plans that were in place in

5 El Paso County were in place for about a decade

6 before the 2011 legislature met, right?

7 A. I think that's right.

8 Q. They had been appealed to the Supreme

9 Court and they had been summarily -- in the Balde ras

10 decision and that had been summarily affirmed an d so

11 those -- the House districts were in place from 2001

12 through 2011.


15:13-20:2



6

13 Q. I've handed you what has been marked as

14 Rodriguez Exhibit 1. And it is the State House p lan

15 as it existed in -- for the decade prior to the 2011

16 redistricting, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And this was the plan that -- it

19 was in place as you began your freshman term in the

20 legislature, correct?

21 A. And what was referred to as the

22 benchmark.

23 Q. This is the benchmark plan, correct?

24 A. The benchmark plan. Okay.

25 Q. Yes, sir. So I want to ask you a few

Page 16

1 questions about this. First of all, you'd agree

2 with me that -- basically that there is a -- that

3 District 77 extends to the northwest of the Frank lin

4 Mountains in this plan, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And also District 77 has a -- has

7 a jagged edge that goes directly east of the cent er

8 of House District 77, correct?

9 MS. PERALES: Objection, form,

10 jagged.

11 A. Yes.

12 BY MR. SWEETEN:

10 jagged.



7

11 A. Yes.

12 BY MR. SWEETEN:

13 Q. Did you understand my question about

14 jagged?

15 A. You're referring to -- as I look at

16 witness Exhibit 1, you're referring to the lines in

17 the northern part of the plan to the west?

18 Q. I'm sorry. Now I'm referring to -- in

19 addition to the fact that it goes northwest and

20 certainly to the west of the Franklin Mountains,

21 there also is a -- there is an extension of Hous e

22 District 77 due east from the center of HD 77,

23 correct?

24 A. From the center, yes.

25 Q. Okay. There is also, I guess for lack

Page 17

1 of a better way to describe it, an antenna-type

2 figure that juts from the middle of House

3 District 77 to the north, correct? Is that a fair

4 way to describe it?

5 A. That's the -- that's the extension shown

6 in the map right in the middle of the map that

7 you're referring to, yes.

8 Q. Correct. And then it -- then House

9 District 77 also extends to the east from that --

10 south of that antenna, it extends to the east,

11 correct?



8

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. So the -- I want to also talk a

14 little more about House District 100. In particu lar

15 I want to show you some data from Plan 100. And

16 we'll go ahead and mark this as Rodriguez 2.

17 (Deposition Exhibit 2 marked.)

18 BY MR. SWEETEN:

19 Q. And this is the -- this is a special

20 tabulation for House districts out of Plan H100,

21 correct? Is that what Exhibit 2 is?

22 A. Well, it's -- yeah, it's -- Special

23 Tabulation is what the title of it is, uh-huh.

24 Q. Okay. And so as you can see, on the

25 left-hand column it has all the districts named,

Page 18

1 correct?


3 Q. And they're numbered 1 through 150, and

4 then if we want to talk about the El Paso House

5 districts as they existed in the benchmark plan,

6 Plan H100, we would look at House District 75, 76 ,

7 77, 78 and 79, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So I want you to look at the --

10 if you look at District 75, and I want you to go

11 over -- four columns over to where it says,

12 "Hispanic CVAP." Do you see that?



9

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And the Hispanic CVAP for House

15 District 75 is 83.1, correct?


17 Q. And I'm going to write these down just

18 so -- because we may have to revisit some of the se

19 figures at a later time in the deposition, and s o

20 I'll keep it handy. Otherwise we'll be flipping

21 back and forth to this. All right. As to House

22 District 76, that number has a Hispanic CVAP of

23 89.4, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And you understand that Hispanic CVAP

Page 19

1 means Hispanic citizen voting age population?


3 Q. Okay. Now, if we go down to House

4 District 77, it has a Hispanic CVAP of 78.6 perce nt,

5 right?


7 Q. Then if we look at District 78, it has a

8 Hispanic CVAP of 56.2 percent, correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And then House District 79 is

11 70 percent, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. So as -- in looking at these in



10

14 the benchmark plan, all five of these have a

15 Hispanic CVAP number of over 50 percent, correct ?


17 Q. All right. So I want to ask you, then,

18 about the next thing, which is SSVR, and we'll m ark

19 this as Rodriguez No. 3.


21 BY MR. SWEETEN:

22 Q. And I've handed you what's been called

23 Rodriguez Exhibit No. 3. Can you read the title of

24 that document, please.

25 A. It's "Hispanic Population Profile Using

Page 20

1 Census, American Community Survey, and Voter

2 Registration Data, HOUSE DISTRICTS - PLANH100."

20:12-21:20

12 Q. And so I just want to take a quick look

13 at the SSVRs on the same districts, 75, 76, 77, 78

14 and 79. Now, House -- the SSVR is -- and we'll l ook

15 over to the right-hand column under "2010 Genera l

16 Elections," it says, "Voter Registration %SSVR." Do

17 you see that on the far right column?

18 A. On No. 3?

19 MS. PERALES: Are you pointing the

20 witness to "Non-Suspense" or "Total"?

21 MR. SWEETEN: To the "Non-Suspense

22 Voter Registration %SSVR."



11

23 A. Okay. Yes.

24 BY MR. SWEETEN:

25 Q. The very far right-hand column?

Page 21

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the left again are the districts,

3 correct?

4 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

5 Q. Now, if we look down, House District 75

6 has a SSVR of 75.9 percent, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. 76 has 84.4 percent?

9 A. Yes.


11 A. Yes.


13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And that's it. So four of the five

15 of -- listed as -- as far as the SSVR, four of

16 those -- of the five are over 50 percent, correc t?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And one is under, and that is House

19 District 78, right?

20 A. Yes.

22:9-23:15

9 Q. Yes, sir. And as far as those five

10 districts that we've now gone over under the



12

11 benchmark plan, those five districts had elected

12 four Democrats coming into the 2011 session and one

13 Republican, correct?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Now, I want to go ahead and turn to the

16 House plan which was 283, and we'll start with a map

17 of that.


19 BY MR. SWEETEN:

20 Q. And I'll hand you what's been marked as

21 Senator Rodriguez Exhibit 4.

22 Now, going in -- and we'll talk

23 about that in a minute, but I've got a few quest ions

24 first. After the census numbers came out in earl y

25 2011, you found out that El Paso County would ha ve

Page 23

1 five Texas House districts just like it did in th e

2 benchmark, correct?


4 Q. And it's also true that population

5 shifts in the ten years since the last plan had b een

6 in effect required that some district lines would

7 have to be moved, right?

8 A. Yes. Say that again. That as a result

9 of the census, some district lines would have to be

10 moved?

11 Q. Right. That there had not been absolute



13

12 equality in -- that there had been some growth i n

13 the ten years and that there would need to be

14 changes in district lines.

15 A. Right.

24:25-25:7

20 Q. Okay. And did you -- did you know at

21 some point that it was going to be the El Paso H ouse

22 members that were going to draw the House distri cts?

23 A. I knew at some point that they were

24 going to be involved in the process of drawing t he

25 maps for El Paso County.

Page 25

1 Q. And that was -- that was because it was

2 a member-driven -- that the El Paso County was go ing

3 to be a member-driven map, correct?

4 A. Well, the more -- it was more that, you

5 know, in the process of redistricting, the member s

6 of the respective regions were going to be allowe d

7 to give input on the redrawing of the maps.

26:10-14

10 Q. And so you heard sometime during the

11 session that the five members of the El Paso Hou se

12 delegation were meeting to discuss how to draw t he

13 House districts in El Paso?

14 A. Yes.

26:21-27:7

21 Q. Okay. And who of the five were you



14

22 communicating with during this process?

23 A. I remember distinctly talking with

24 Representative Marisa Marquez.

25 Q. And Ms. Marquez, did she -- and did you

Page 27

1 understand, based upon your discussions with

2 Ms. Marquez, that the five were working towards

3 creating the House districts within El Paso?

4 A. Not the five, but rather that she was

5 working with Representative Margo in developing t he

6 plan for District 78 and how it impacted her in

7 District 77.

28:1-32:18

1 talking to Marisa Marquez that she was communicat ing

2 with Dee Margo regarding 77 and 78.


4 Q. Okay. Other than that, you were not

5 aware of the discussions that were taking place

6 between those House members about where to draw

7 lines, about discussions that they were having

8 substantively about how this process would go or any

9 other matter, right?

10 A. Yeah. I did not know the specifics of

11 their discussions, but I certainly had the

12 impression that the delegation was talking about the

13 drawing of the maps, as I said earlier, in a gen eral

14 sense. But I had -- you're correct, I had no



15

15 knowledge of when they were meeting, how many of

16 them were meeting at any given time, what they w ere

17 deciding.

18 Q. Okay. And so that's fair. You

19 generally knew that there was something going on --

20 some sort of meeting or process going on with th e

21 five, but as far as the specifics, the discussio ns,

22 what was -- what they were talking about, what l ines

23 were being drawn, you had no idea?


25 Q. Okay. And, in fact, you didn't – go

Page 29

1 ahead.

2 A. Other than with regard to some -- some

3 discussion with Marisa Marquez over how her distr ict

4 might change as she was expressing it to me.

5 Q. Okay. And let's talk a little bit about

6 the five representatives in the 2011 redistrictin g

7 session. First, we talked about one, which is

8 Marisa Marquez.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. She's a Hispanic female?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. She's a Democrat?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And by the way, I didn't get on the

15 record, you're a Democrat too, right?



16


17 Q. Okay. And --

18 A. Proud Democrat.

19 Q. Fair enough. And on either of these

20 numbers -- she's in District 77 and as to House

21 District 100, she was -- she represented a Hispa nic

22 majority district, correct?


24 Q. Okay. The second of the five

25 representatives is Chente Quintanilla. Did I

Page 30

1 pronounce that correctly?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He was an incumbent in House

4 District 75, right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. He had held that House seat in

7 District 75 from 2002 until 2010, right?


9 Q. And Representative Quintanilla is

10 Hispanic?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. He was an elected representative from a

13 majority Hispanic district, correct?


15 Q. Which had 83.1 percent HCVAP and

16 79.9 percent SSVR.



17


18 Q. Another of the five representatives from

19 El Paso was another Democrat named Joe Pickett,

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Representative Pickett has been a

23 democratic representative from House District 79

24 since 1994.

25 A. Right.

Page 31

1 Q. In the benchmark plan, Representative

2 Pickett's district had a Hispanic citizen voting age

3 population of 70 percent and an SSVR of

4 65.2 percent, right?


6 Q. Mr. Pickett had been -- returned to

7 Austin every year from that district since 1994?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That, by my count, is nine straight

10 democratic primaries and nine straight general

11 elections, correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Now, as a representative HD 79,

14 Mr. Pickett was the longest serving House

15 representative from El Paso.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. The representative from House



18

18 District 76 in the 2011 redistricting session wa s

19 Naomi Gonzalez, correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And Representative Gonzalez is a

22 Democrat.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Ms. Gonzalez is a Hispanic female.

25 A. Yes.

Page 32

1 Q. She is currently -- let's see. She's

2 the incumbent from House District 76 and she was

3 elected when she beat Norma Chavez in the 2010

4 democratic primary.


6 Q. And Ms. Gonzalez's numbers in

7 District 76 have an HCVAP of 89.4 percent and an

8 SSVR of 84.4 percent; is that right?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. That brings us to the final member of

11 the House delegation of El Paso, Representative Dee

12 Margo. He was the House district member from

13 District 78 in 2010, correct?


15 Q. And he was a Republican and the

16 Republicans were the majority party overwhelming ly

17 in the House and the Senate, correct?




19

33:23-34:2

23 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Mr. Margo had run

24 in District 78 back in 2008 and had lost to Joe

25 Moody by a margin of 51.52 percent to 45.11 perc ent;

Page 34

1 is that correct?

2 A. That sounds right, yes.

35:1-36:12

1 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you this. I've

2 got those numbers here if we want to go through

3 them, but let me just ask you this. In '08 and '1 0

4 they were very close elections between Dee Margo and

5 Mr. Moody, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And not to get too far ahead of

8 ourselves, but they also ran against each other i n

9 2012, right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And Mr. Moody at that time won in House

12 District 78 in a fairly narrow margin as well.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you've been -- you're a Democrat,

15 Mr. Moody's a Democrat and you've been a support er

16 of Mr. Moody's.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He's a personal friend of yours.

19 A. Yes.



20

20 Q. You've supported his campaign all three

21 of those years.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, I think we've established this, but

24 you were not involved in drawing the El Paso Hou se

25 map.

Page 36

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you have any discussions during the

3 time that the maps were being drawn with

4 Representative Dee Margo?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have any discussions during the

7 time the maps were being drawn with Representativ e

8 Joe Pickett?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And I think we've talked about -- did

11 you talk to Representative Quintanilla?

12 A. No.

41:22-42:3

22 Q. So you used the word "packing." Okay.

23 And I want to ask you, are you saying that based

24 upon your review of the map, H283, that you thin k

25 that there was some packing into District 77?

Page 42

1 A. Yes, that Hispanics were moved from

2 District 78 into District 77, both on the west si de



21

3 and on the northeast side of House District 78.

45:3-21

3 Q. Okay. Now, as far as whether

4 Ms. Marquez had asked for the change, whether

5 another delegation member had asked for the chang e,

6 whether Mr. Margo had asked for a change, you don 't

7 know that one way or the other?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And you weren't privy to the

10 discussions as to how a specific line would be d rawn

11 that ultimately became H283, right?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And so you can't, as you're sitting

14 here, say that -- you cannot point to any partic ular

15 member who you believe did this packing in the a reas

16 that you've described, correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Okay. Now, when you're saying

19 "packing," I want to be clear. What you're sayin g

20 is packing of Latinos into HD 77 from HD 78?

21 A. Yes.

49:8-51:9

8 Q. Yeah. I've handed you what is the House

9 District Plan H283, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And let's look at District 77 and 78's

12 HCVAP. District 77 shows under the House PLANH28 3,



22

13 73.4 percent HCVAP in District 77, correct?

14 A. Which exhibit are we looking at?

15 Q. No. 5.

16 A. No. 5. And we're looking at 77?

17 Q. Yes, sir.

18 A. Okay. Yeah, 73.4.

19 Q. Okay. And then with respect to 78,

20 the -- what is the HCVAP there?

21 A. It's 55.2.

22 Q. All right. So if we look at the old

23 numbers under District 78, under the benchmark i t

24 was 56.2 percent HCVAP, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 50

1 Q. And under the new 78 it's 55.2 percent

2 CVAP, correct?


4 Q. But when we look at 77, the actual

5 number there shows 78.6 percent under the benchma rk

6 and it's decreased to 73.4 percent HCVAP, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So HD 77's Hispanic population has gone

9 down by approximately 5.2 percent, right?

10 A. Thereabouts.

11 Q. And we can look at it at a similar --

12 and I'll go ahead and hand you the SSVR numbers

13 which -- and this will be Exhibit No. 6, Senator



23

14 Rodriguez.


16 BY MR. SWEETEN:

17 Q. And the SSVR number, the non-suspense

18 SSVR number, so the far right-hand column on HD 77

19 shows us that District 77 has an SSVR of

20 66.4 percent, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that HD 78 has 47.1 percent.


24 Q. Okay. So -- and when we compare those

25 to the SSVR numbers for the benchmark plan, unde r

Page 51

1 HD 77 that has decreased from 73.1 percent to

2 66.4 percent, correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. So the packed district has decreased by

5 approximately 7 percent. The district that you

6 allege has been packed, HD 77, has decreased its

7 SSVR by 7 percent.

8 A. Well, it has decreased in the number of

9 Spanish surname voter registration.

51:25-52:13

25 Q. As far as the H D -- the SSVR numbers

Page 52

1 for HD 78, in the benchmark plan it was 47.5

2 percent.



24

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. And then under H283 it's gone down

5 four-tenths of a percentage to 47.1 percent,

6 correct?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. Okay. Now, while we've got those out,

9 let's look at Anglo populations. All right. And i n

10 particular I'd like you to turn to -- and you've got

11 in front of you the benchmark 100 numbers which I --

12 and if you could identify, is that Rodriguez 1?

13 A. I believe so.

53:5-54:10

5 Q. So I've got it, Rodriguez 2. And as far

6 as the Anglo population in benchmark 100 for Hous e

7 District 77 --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- that number in the benchmark is

10 16.1 percent.

11 A. Okay. What column are we on? 78?

12 Q. Unless my notes are wrong. Let me check

13 that. Yeah, 16.1 percent is HD 77.

14 A. For 77, yes, I see it.

15 Q. Is 16.1.

16 A. You're correct.

17 Q. And then also in the -- in H100 the

18 Anglo numbers for HD 78 is 35.9 percent, right?

19 A. Yes.



25

20 Q. And when we look at H283, which I

21 believe is Exhibit 5; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The Anglo figures for H283 are

24 19.7 percent for HD 77.

25 A. 19.7.

Page 54

1 Q. Yes, sir.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then as to HD 78 is 36.9 percent.


5 Q. Okay. So the -- as far as the Anglo

6 population in HD 77, it went down 3.6 percent.

7 A. That sounds right, uh-huh.

8 Q. Okay. And it increased by 1 percentage

9 point from H100 to H283 in district HD 78, right?

10 A. Yes.

54:16-55:4

16 Q. Now, it's a true statement that -- you

17 told the court in your Section 5 testimony, and it's

18 a true statement that, the Franklin Mountains ru n

19 through El Paso, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in fact it's the case that the

22 Franklin Mountains are actually the largest

23 sustained mountain range in Texas.

24 A. I believe so.



26

25 Q. And the Franklin Mountains State Park is

Page 55

1 actually -- and you probably know this as a nativ e

2 of El Paso, but is the largest urban park in the

3 nation that lies completely within city limits.

4 A. Totally correct.

55:8-16

8 Q. It's a distinguishing feature of El Paso

9 as you've got a big mountain right in the middle.

10 A. No other city has it.

11 Q. And it's -- it's also the case that when

12 you look at H283 that certainly the western port ion

13 of that district that goes into the north, goes up

14 around the -- goes around one side of the Frankl in

15 Mountains, correct?

16 A. Yes.

57:10-58:2

10 Q. There's -- that's right. So what we've

11 had -- with the magic of computers, we had someb ody

12 actually take a look and draw the Franklin

13 Mountains -- the uninhabited portion of the Fran klin

14 Mountains in Exhibit No. 7. And does that look

15 approximately accurate to you as far as how the

16 mountain configuration --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And so I think what you're saying

19 is that if you look up on the west side of what you



27

20 call the antlers, it doesn't -- the west side

21 doesn't go all the way up to the mountain, corre ct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But you would also agree -- I mean, it

24 does -- it goes up and encompasses portions of l and

25 to the northwest of -- to the northeast of the

Page 58

1 mountain, correct?

2 A. Yes.

58:24-59:9

24 Q. Let me just hand you the State House

25 Plan H100 with that same Franklin Mountain

Page 59

1 configuration in it. And you would agree that tha t

2 western portion also -- that western portion that 's

3 depicted in State House Plan 100 does follow the

4 contour of the mountain to some degree?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But it also does not abut the mountain,

7 neither on the northern and central regions of -- is

8 that correct?


59:25-60:25

25 Q. Okay. So -- but I was referring more to

Page 60

1 the left -- the western -- on 100, I'm referring

2 more to the western -- the part that goes northwe st,



28

3 the far northwest corner of 77 does follow the

4 contours of the mountain but yet is not adjacent to

5 the mountain; is that right?

6 A. Right. So I see what you're saying. We

7 were comparing different features of the plan. I

8 was referring to the extension.

9 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. Then I think

10 we're talking about different things.

11 A. The extension under the benchmark plan

12 for House 77 is literally right on the mountain --

13 on the side of the mountain and on the mountain

14 versus the antler on House District 77 as reflec ted

15 in Plan H283 has been taken away from the mounta in

16 right adjacent to the mountain and moved further out

17 west over to Interstate 10.

18 Q. But both have sort of an antenna feature

19 that extends north from the center of the distri ct,

20 both -- if you look at Plan H100, it has a

21 northern -- you know, it juts north from the cen tral

22 portion as does H283, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So that's similar but not the same.

25 A. They're different size antennas.

61:11-62:5

11 Q. Okay. All right. I think we're on the

12 same page on that. So let me move on.

13 You indicated in your Section 5



29

14 testimony that El Paso County was approximately

15 80 percent Hispanic. Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember -- and it's

18 been a while so fair enough. Do you remember if you

19 were using -- what figures you were using, wheth er

20 it was citizen HCVAP or whether it was just tota ls

21 of those numbers?

22 A. I believe at the time I was using the

23 2010 census data where it reflected that El Paso was

24 about 82 percent Hispanic.

25 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you an

Page 62

1 exhibit. This was used in the last -- I don't kno w

2 if it was used, but it was part of the -- of what

3 was provided in the last round of litigation. And

4 I'll mark it as Senator Rodriguez Exhibit 9.


62:23-64:19

23 Q. All right. So as you can see, this is

24 the American Community Survey Special Tabulation

25 Estimated Hispanic Citizen Voting Age Population .

Page 63

1 And again, this is Rodriguez 9, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if you look down -- and let's go to

4 El Paso County and if you'll look at the estimate d



30

5 citizen voting age population of El Paso, it show s

6 74.74 percent.


8 Q. Did I read that correctly?

9 A. That's correct. This is the voting age

10 population, and when I was referring to the over

11 80 percent, it was just the general population.

12 Q. Oh, understood. Yeah, no problem. I

13 wanted to be clear because this is -- this is --

14 74 percent is what is the citizen voting age

15 population, correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And -- now, we've already

18 discussed the fact that the population of El Pas o

19 County allowed for there to be five House distri cts,

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it's a true statement that if you're

23 looking at the five districts that are created u nder

24 Plan H283 in the redistricting session in 2001, that

25 all five of them, if you're looking at HCVAP – w e

Page 64

1 can look at them again if you want -- if you're

2 looking at HCVAP, all five of those districts

3 reflect a majority citizen voting age population of

4 over 50 percent, correct?

5 A. Yes.



31

6 Q. And if you look at another measure, the

7 SSVR, four of the five districts created in 2011

8 were -- had an over 50 percent SSVR percentage.


10 Q. Okay. And if we're looking -- first of

11 all, if we're looking at HCVAP, then we would -- and

12 if 50 percent of them -- 100 percent of the Hous e

13 districts have a majority population -- HCVAP

14 population of over 50 percent, right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And if we look at the -- just the SSVR

17 number, we would say that 80 percent of the five

18 House districts are over 50 percent SSVR, right?

19 A. Yes.

64:24-65:17

24 Q. Now, you've expressed -- you expressed

25 the view in your testimony and deposition that

Page 65

1 incumbency is a factor that can legitimately be

2 considered in redistricting maps, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that's your opinion?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about -- I think

7 there was -- we've talked quite a bit about the

8 El Paso delegation, the five members. Was it your

9 understanding that all five of them agreed to the



32

10 map that was drawn?

11 A. I can't answer that, that all five of

12 them agreed to it.

13 Q. Okay. Let me ask it another way. Is it

14 your position that they did not agree or do you just

15 not know one way or the other whether they agree d?

16 A. I do not know one way or the other that

17 they all agreed.

70:18-71:8

18 Q. Understood, Senator. And let me just

19 ask you a follow-up question with respect to tha t,

20 which is, it's true, though, that under -- under

21 SSVR under the H283, four of the five House

22 districts in El Paso were over 50 percent SSVR,

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So 80 percent of the House districts,

Page 71

1 just looking at SSVR, were Latino opportunity

2 districts, correct?


4 Q. And the other one has -- did have a --

5 over 50 percent HCVAP population. I think it was 78

6 had a HCVAP of 55.2 under the H283 plan as well,

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

93:24-94:6



33

24 Q. So your objection to H358 -- and I'll

25 just try to get it in a nutshell -- was that it

Page 94

1 didn't include the House district adjustments to 77

2 and 78 and that's it.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Any other objections at all to

5 H358 other than that?

6 A. No.

106:4-8

4 Q. Okay. And that's what I'm driving at.

5 If the Moody plan had been adopted, you would hav e

6 felt like there were no issues that you had with

7 HD --

8 A. I would have supported the House plan.

113:6-19

6 Q. I'm going to show you an exhibit that

7 we've marked as Senator Rodriguez 13. And this is

8 State House Plan H283, and it's -- the shading th at

9 you can see, you can see the key on it, relates t o

10 the Barack Obama/John McCain 2008 presidential

11 contest. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, if you -- I want you to look at

14 HD 77 and I want you to look at the shading with in

15 HD 77, and I'm going to ask you if there is any



34

16 portion within HD 77 that shows less than 52 per cent

17 of that population voted for Barack Obama over J ohn

18 McCain in the 2008.

19 A. Less than? Then the answer is no.

114:14-115:1

14 Q. So when you look at the shaded areas in

15 House District 77, the largest percentage that's

16 shaded is in the 57 to 100 percent voted for Bar ack

17 Obama category, correct?

18 A. Yes, that's what it shows.

19 Q. And a very small percentage within the

20 shaded portion shows it's somewhere between 52 a nd

21 56.9 percent, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And not one shaded area within HD 77 has

24 anything less than a 52 percent vote for Barack

25 Obama, correct?

Page 115

1 A. So it appears, yes.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations KEL SELIGER

1

State Defendants’


Kel Seliger



2

6:7-9

7 Q. Can you please state your name for t he

8 record.

9 A. My name is Kel Seliger.

13:16-23

16 Q. Okay. Did you do any other analysis

17 other than the regression analysis that you ju st

18 mentioned?

19 A. Oh, there might have been several th ings.

20 I just don't recall. It was the job of the st aff,

21 and there were two lawyers there to talk about this

22 stuff, make me aware of those things that impi nged

23 upon our decision, our map-drawing.

62:21-25

21 Q. Would it by fair to say that complia nce

22 with the Voting Rights Act was high on your li st of

23 priorities as the Chair of the Senate Redistri cting

24 Committee in 2013?

25 A. Yes.

69:14-70:6

14 Q. Okay. As the special session starts and

15 you have authored redistricting bills that are

16 essentially the court-drawn interim plans, was it

17 your preference to enact the court-drawn inter im

18 plans without amendment?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you explain why that was your

21 preference?

22 A. As best as I can recall my motivatio n at



3

23 the time, because they were court-drawn plans, which

24 meant that they had passed a level of scrutiny , the

25 way I construe it, and that the Court imprimat ur on

Page 70

1 the plans was perfectly defensible and any cha nges,

2 who knew.

3 Q. Would it be fair to say that you thought

4 any changes might open the door to additional le gal

5 challenges under the Voting Rights Act? 10:20

6 A. Or the Constitution, no question.

71:6-13

6 Q. Do you recall having field hearings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall having field hearings in

9 Corpus Christi and Houston?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Did you attend both of those field

12 hearings?

13 A. I did.

101:8-15

8 Q. In 2013, in your actions as a senator and

9 as chair of the committee, in developing and t rying

10 to achieve passage of the redistricting bill, let's

11 just say for Congress at this point --

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. -- did you have the intent to

14 discriminate on the basis of race?

15 A. No.

102:7-13



4

7 Q. (By Mr. Hicks) Let me ask that same

8 question with respect to the development and p assage

9 of the congressional redistricting bill in 201 1.

10 Did you have the subjective intent to discrimi nate

11 on the basis of race?

12 A. I did not have the intent to discrim inate

13 on the basis of race.

117:10-118:3

10 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) Okay. In referenc e to

11 your responsibility, did you feel as though th ere

12 was a responsibility for you to avoid coming u p with

13 a map that was discriminatory?

14 A. It was my responsibility to come up with

15 a map that was not discriminatory, I would say

16 always, yes.

17 Q. Okay. And does that include the

18 responsibility to ensure that the map that you would

19 come up with would not be discriminatory again st

20 Latinos or African Americans?

21 MR. FREDERICK: Objection; vague .

22 You can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) And did you consid er

25 that a serious responsibility?

Page 118


2 You can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I did and do.



5

118:18-119:3

18 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) Okay. Why don't y ou --

19 In what way should you have contact with minor ity

20 groups to try to make sure that you avoid

21 discrimination?

22 A. It's a public process.


24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

25 MR. FREDERICK: That's okay.

Page 119

1 THE WITNESS: And I made myself

2 personally available to any one or group who w anted

3 to come and talk about redistricting.

119:9-19

9 Q. Okay. And do you recall meeting with

10 Congressman Al Green?

11 A. Not in the special session in 2013. I

12 met with him in 2011.

13 Q. And do you recall meeting with

14 Congressman Sheila Jackson Lee?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And when did you meet with her?

17 A. I think it was during the 2011

18 Legislative Session, but I don't recall

19 specifically.

128:24-130:6

24 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) Now, is it importa nt

25 when you are deciding on how to construct a ma p and

Page 129



6

1 desiring to avoid discrimination to listen to the

2 input from the minority members of the Senate?

3 A. It's important to listen to all the

4 members.

5 Q. Okay. Including the minority member s?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. Okay. And would you agree that mino rity

8 members, that many of them have large minority

9 constituencies?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. And do you recall if any of them spo ke at

12 any of your committee meetings?


14 You may answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think a num ber

16 of them did. I know Gene Green did in Houston in

17 2013, and so did Congresswomen Lee. And other s may

18 have. I'm sorry, I don't recall.

19 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) Okay. And what ab out

20 members of the State Senate?


22 You may answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 Q. (By Mr. Bledsoe) Okay. Do you reca ll

25 specific ones who might have testified?

Page 130

1 A. Senator Watson. And I don't recall who

2 else, but there were 15 members of the Senate on the

3 committees, which is half the Senate, and they all



7

4 spoke. So members of the Senate don't necessa rily

5 provide testimony to the Senate. They speak a s

6 members.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations BURT SOLOMONS

1

State Defendants’


Burt Solomons



2

6:16-18:

16 Q: Would you please state your name for the

17 record.

18 A. Burt Solomons.

11:22-24

22 Q. Have you had any lobbying relationship wi th the

23 Texans For Lawsuit Reform?

24 A. No.

28:22-23:19

22 Q. All right. Now I want to ask you a few

23 questions about specific areas of the state, a nd let's

24 focus first on Bexar County. Okay?

25 And I want to know: What is your

1 understanding of how the House map for Bexar C ounty was

2 drawn? Process-wise, how was it done?

3 A. Well, Bexar County is a drop-in county, a nd I

4 know that the San Antonio delegation was tryin g to work

5 together on developing a -- somewhat of agreed -to map

6 for Bexar County.

7 And Mike Villarreal was the assistant

8 redistricting chair, vice chair. And I assume he and

9 Member Martinez, Trey Martinez Fischer and -- Trey and

10 everybody there were trying to work things out , just

11 like all the other drop-in counties.

12 Q. You said that you assumed that they were trying

13 to work things out. Do you have any knowledge of the



3

14 process by which they went about working that out?

15 A. No, I don't. The only thing I did was a sk Mike

16 a few -- a few times: How's it coming? Are you guys

17 getting there?

18 Yeah, we're working on it. That's about

19 it.

30:14-31:2

14 Q. What is your understanding about how the Dallas

15 County portion of the House map was drawn?

16 A. Similar as the all the drop-in counties. Some

17 of the senior delegates from Dallas County, b oth

18 Democrats and Republicans, working out their districts

19 and how that may all look.

20 Q. Did any particular members take the lead in

21 Dallas County?

22 A. Jim Jackson, Dan Branch. I think Alonzo ,

23 probably, was working on it, Roberto Alonzo. And I know

24 that Yvonne Davis and Helen Giddings and I th ink Barbara

25 Mallory at the time, they were all working on their

1 districts. And I kind of left it to them as much as I

2 could.

32:9-16

9 Q. How is El Paso County drawn?

10 A. Same way as all the other drop-in counti es. I

11 asked Representative Pickett to try to take t he lead on

12 that because he was on the committee, and I k new him.

13 We came in together and we roomed together, a nd he was a



4

14 senior delegate from El Paso. And I asked hi m to work

15 with the other members and try to come up wit h

16 something.

33:6-24

6 Q. Okay. And did Representative Pickett su bmit a

7 map to you or to the committee?

8 A. I believe so.

9 Q. Were there changes to the El Paso map af ter

10 Representative Pickett submitted it?

11 A. I don't recall the timing. I know that there

12 was -- I don't know if it was before or after . There

13 was a couple of members of the El Paso delega tion

14 flipped around a couple of things. But I don 't remember

15 if it was before and we just took it and put it in the

16 map or it was done after -- in some form or f ashion

17 after it was given to us. I don't remember. I don't

18 remember the timing of that.

19 Q. Who would know that?

20 A. Representative Pickett, Chairman Pickett .

21 Q. Anyone else that you can think of that w ould

22 know?

23 A. Dee Margot, and who was it -- or what's her

24 name? Marisa. I can't remember Marisa's las t name.

34:1-23

1 A. Marquez.

2 Q. (By Mr. Sells) And why -- why were thos e

3 two --



5

4 A. Because I think it involved them. If I recall

5 that, I think it was -- I think it involved t hem.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. I could be wrong about that, but I think it

8 involved them.

9 Q. So you -- you have a recollection of som e

10 changes that involved Representatives Margot and Marquez

11 to the El Paso map?

12 A. I don't know if it was before it was fin alized

13 and then turned in or it happened shortly rig ht after it

14 was turned in. But I do know there was somet hing that

15 happened after Joe had said: I think we have it put

16 together. And then there was something that happened

17 fairly quickly, but I don't know if it was ri ght before

18 we put the map -- we inserted that piece into the puzzle

19 or shortly right after we did.

20 And then at some point, it was fixed to - -

21 because I think two of the members flipped a couple of

22 things, a couple of -- a few -- a couple of p recincts or

23 something.

35:5-8

5 Q. What -- what was your -- what were you to ld

6 about the change?

7 A. That that's what they wanted to do. And as far

8 as I knew, it met whatever standards we needed to have.

36:18-21

18 Q. Okay.



6

19 A. And we had both Republicans and Democrats

20 signing off on various delegate -- in drop-in county

21 maps.

48:6-49:19

6 Q. I think I remember some prior testimony i n one

7 of these cases from you indicating that you -- that you

8 had meetings with members of Congress before t he drawing

9 got started. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And do I have that basically right?

12 A. A few meetings where people more -- more or

13 less meet-and-greet-type meetings with differe nt members

14 of Congress. Apparently, that's -- redistrict ing time

15 is when Congress -- congressional members come down and

16 show an interest in us House members, Texas Ho use

17 members.

18 Q. Okay. I think I remember you using that term

19 "meet and greet."

20 During those meet-and-greet sessions, did

21 you tell members of Congress how they could ha ve input

22 on the congressional map?

23 A. I believe I probably told every one of th em:

24 Let us know what you're interested in and get -- you

25 know, have your staff -- or get with our staff about

1 what you're interested in. And I knew that th ey --

2 based on the conversations they had with me, t hat they

3 were all constantly concerned and working on w hat they



7

4 were interested in up in Washington.

5 Q. What do you mean by that, the last part o f your

6 answer?

7 A. That they were -- it's redistricting year .

8 They're concerned about their districts, and t hey were

9 working on -- concerned about redistricting al l over the

10 country. Congressional members were worried a bout their

11 own districts, trying to figure out what they -- what

12 they would like to see, just like House member s and

13 Senate members and everyone else.

14 Q. So during your meet-and-greet, you got th e

15 feeling they were very interested in the proce ss?

16 A. They were very interested in the process.

17 Q. And did you -- did you let them know that their

18 input would be welcome?

19 A. Yes.

50:23-51:6

23 Q. So I'm trying to -- I'm trying to underst and

24 whether Ryan Downton, for example, ever said t o you:

25 Mr. Chairman, I got a call from Representative So-and-So

1 and he or she wants this little change. Is th at okay?

2 Kind of thing.

3 A. I don't recall any specifics about that e xcept

4 in one case.

5 Q. What -- what is that one case?

6 A. Kenny Marchant's district.



8

51:9-52:25

9 Q. (By Mr. Sells) And what do you recall ab out

10 that input?

11 A. We got something from him about his grand kids

12 or something because they go to Hockaday Schoo l, and he

13 wanted to know if he could somehow get Hockada y in his

14 district, which, you know, I think -- you know ,

15 obviously, my -- my stock response on almost e verything:

16 I don't care. If it will work. If it works u nder

17 whatever the staff -- if everybody says that - - we're

18 okay with it, if it doesn't -- it doesn't -- y ou know,

19 if it complies with the Voting Right -- if it does

20 everything it's supposed to do, I don't care, you know.

21 I mean, we had lots of members, House

22 members and I'm sure Senate members, wanting c ertain

23 things in their district just because they do. They

24 just -- they just do.

25 Q. And do you know whether Representative

1 Marchant's request was granted?

2 A. I think it was.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I don't think it required much, like from one

5 street to another street. And if you have to -- it's --

6 since it's a -- since it's a very, very, very minute

7 deviation, you have to make sure it would stil l work.

8 And if you can do it, fine. If you can't do i t, then,

9 you know, you can't do it.



9

10 Q. And that's the only request that you can

11 specifically remember?

12 A. That's the only one I happen to remember.

13 Q. Okay. Did you ever receive word of simil ar

14 requests from congressmen through another memb er of the

15 House?

16 A. About what they wanted specifically?

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. Yeah, I did.

19 Q. Can you tell me about -- about that?

20 A. I think -- I think Congressman Barton wan ted

21 Cowboy Stadium in his district. And that was on the

22 floor of the House, where he was trying to get -- I

23 think Representative Zedler was -- tried to fi le a

24 couple of amendments trying to get Joe Barton' s district

25 "fixed."

67:16-68:11

16 Q. Okay. The House can only deal with the budget

17 bill at a time -- that traditionally has deal t with the

18 budget bill before moving on to other bills; is that

19 fair to say?

20 A. Not always. Not always. I mean, we usu ally

21 do -- the budget seems to be a mid-April kind of -- or

22 sometime in April issue because you've got to go pass

23 the budget. You're going to end up going to c onference

24 on the budget between the Senate and the House . It's

25 just -- there's just this time frame that the budget



10

1 has. And then meanwhile, you have to work in all the

2 other major pieces of legislation.

3 And in this case, it was redistricting

4 time, so that's an additional burden on placin g on time

5 because you know it's going to take a certain amount of

6 layout time on the budget. You've got to lay out the --

7 the redistricting bill. You've got to -- it's going to

8 take all day or two days, all night, whatever it's going

9 to take. So no other bills are going to get h eard

10 during those periods of time because they're a ll

11 major-stake bills.

72:16-21

16 Q. Do you know Congressman Lamar Smith?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what contact did you have with him or his

19 staff during the redistricting process?

20 A. He stopped by and visited with me on thre e or

21 four occasions during the session.

73:5-25

5 Q. And what did he tell you about redistrict ing?

6 A. He said they're trying to come to some

7 agreements up in Washington about what they -- the

8 majority of the members felt good about.

9 Q. What else do you remember about what

10 Congressman Smith told you during those visits ?

11 A. I think each time that I met with him, th ere

12 was the sense that -- I think what he was indi cating to



11

13 me generally was that they still haven't group ed

14 around -- or majority grouped around a particu lar

15 version of a map that a lot of the Texas deleg ation

16 would like, and that I think he was trying to reach out

17 to both sides. Some of the members on the Rep ublican

18 side and Democrat side were talking privately about this

19 entire issue.

20 Q. So Congressman Smith gave you the impress ion

21 that he was talking with Democrats as well as

22 Republicans?

23 A. He was hearing from Democrats, at least,

24 because I think he was the lead role in -- up there in

25 Washington about redistricting for the Texas d elegation.

77:10-78:10

10 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with Eric Opiela?

11 That's O-p-i-e-l-a.

12 A. Yes, I know him.

13 Q. Who is he?

14 A. He's somebody that's run for office a cou ple of

15 times and apparently had an interest in redist ricting

16 because he was around the office and in and ou t some,

17 just kind of showing up.

18 Q. What -- what role did he have in the


20 A. I don't really know. He didn't have a re al

21 role with me, I mean, other than just sort of: Hi. How

22 are you? How's it going?



12

23 Yeah, we're working on stuff.

24 Well, who is "we"?

25 Well, no, you know, I've just got some

1 ideas.

2 I'm assuming he's talking to staff. But

3 he was in and out of the office a little bit t alking

4 with Bonnie; in and out probably -- he probabl y talked

5 to Gerardo; probably talked to Ryan.

6 Most of my conversations with him were

7 sort of generic, just -- he would stop in and poke his

8 head in the office: Hi, I'm here.

9 Q. Do you know who he was working for?

10 A. No.


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