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FAA Managers Association, Inc.

888 16th

St NW, Suite 530 Washington, DC 20006

(202) 741-9415 www.FAAMA.org

11/18/14

TO: Louis Dupart, FAAMA Executive Director

FR: Gabby Friedman

RE: FAA Reauthorization: Issues in Modernizing and Operating the Nation’s Airspace Hearing

Summary

Overview

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014, the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure held a

full committee hearing entitled FAA Reauthorization: Issues in Modernizing and Operating the

Nation’s Airspace. The hearing explored issues related to the FAA’s modernization and operation of

the nation’s complex airspace system. Witnesses included: The Honorable Calvin Scovel, III,

Inspector General of the Department of Transportation, Mr. Nicholas Calio, President and CEO of

Airlines for America, Mr. Mark Baker, President and CEO of Aircraft Owners and Pilots

Association, Captain Lee Moak, President of Air Line Pilots Association, The Honorable John

Engler, President of Business Roundtable, and Mr. Paul Rinaldi, President of National Air Traffic

Controllers Association.

Opening Statements

Chairman Bill Shuster (R-PA-9)

Per Congressman Shuster the Hearing is an opportunity to explore what issues the Transportation

Committee should consider as it plans for the next FAA reauthorization and beyond. Shuster noted

that the FAA was created 56 years ago, there have been many attempts at reform. For instance,

numerous advisory committees have made reform recommendations based upon input from aviation

stakeholders. Both President Clinton and President Bush sought to reform the FAA in order to

improve the level of air traffic control service that Americans received. While each had varying

degrees of success, neither President was able to implement long lasting, transformative reform.

Shuster said that as air travel continues to grow and the nation’s airspace becomes increasingly more

complex, we must ensure that the infrastructure, rules, processes, and laws are up-to-date and able to

withstand the test of time. To do that, we must make sure that the FAA is properly structured to

carry out modernization efforts and operate as efficiently as absolutely possible. In report after

report, the Inspector General of the Department of Transportation (IG) and the Government

Accountability Office have identified costly problems with the FAA’s management of air traffic

control modernization programs. Congress has an important role in the modernization effort, and

will continue to provide the tools and resources necessary while also conducting oversight to ensure

taxpayer money is not being wasted. As we move forward, all options are on the table. However,

anything we do in the FAA Reauthorization process needs to be done on a bipartisan basis to ensure

that the Committee’s work helps lay a foundation for the brightest possible future for U.S. aviation.

Shuster reviewed recent problems: sequestration, the government shutdown, and 23 short term

extensions of the last FAA Bill has led stakeholders at the hearing to look for a different pathway

forward

Ranking Member Nick Rahall (D-WV-3) defeated for re-election will be leaving at the end of

the Congress. The Committee has done great things together. This year alone we passed the

Water Resources Bill, ( WRRDA). We can come together in the future to pass big bills. Aviation

Subcommittee Chairman Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ-2)

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We have the safest and busiest aviation system in the world that keeps our economy ticking and

serves as a model of American global leadership. The FAA Tech Center in my district has played a

vital role in making advances in aviation safety and air traffic control technology over the last fifty

plus years and will continue to do so. However, the FAA needs to do even better, like getting

technology programs both finished and implemented on schedule without any further waste of the

taxpayers’ money. LoBiondo said he wants to look at the long-term challenges our aviation sector is

facing and be bold and decisive in addressing them through an open exchange of ideas. He said it

was his hope today to learn what issues Congress needs to think about as we look ahead to the next

FAA Reauthorization and beyond to ensure that we continue to have the safest system possible that

also secures America’s leadership in this vital and growing global industry.

Aviation Subcommittee Ranking Member Rick Larsen (D-WA-2)

I want to work to improve safety and keep aviation in this country the envy of the world. I know

there is great frustration with NextGen implementation and funding uncertainty. However, I want to

point out that the FAA is making strong progress on these points. If we compare where we are today

with where we were last year – there has been great improvement. The FAA now has a plan to

implement DataComm – this was not the case last year. He reiterated this point that he knows the

FAA is behind wanted to make sure that everyone knows how far the FAA has come in this year

alone. The Agency has both a management problem but also a political problem. The fiscal cliff

caused great issues for NextGen. The FAA has to do better, but we as the Congress also have to be

better.

Testimony

The Honorable Calvin Scovel, III, Inspector General, Department of Transportation

The FAA has taken steps to implement the provisions of reform legislation, including introducing

new employee compensation systems and establishing the Air Traffic Organization (ATO).

However, the Agency has not taken full advantage of its personnel reform authorities, or

implemented changes that could significantly enhance air traffic operations. In general, the FAA is

not using business-like practices to improve its operational efficiency and cost effectiveness. As a

result, the FAA has experienced significant increases in its costs without appreciable increases in

controller productivity. The FAA’s acquisition reforms have similarly fallen short of their goals to

improve the delivery of new technologies and capabilities, as well as cost, schedule, and

performance outcomes in the FAA’s modernization projects and procurement of services. The FAA

faces significant challenges as it modernizes and operates the Nation’s air traffic control system,

including ongoing investment priorities for advancing the Next Generation Air Transportation

System (NextGen), numerous complexities related to safely integrating unmanned aircraft systems

(UAS) into the NAS, and a lack of viable business continuity plans to mitigate potential security

risks to the air traffic control system.

Despite completing several personnel and organizational reforms, multiple reorganizations, and

implementing measures aimed at improving its internal operations and reducing costs, the Agency’s

total budget, operations budget, and compensation costs have nearly doubled, while productivity at

its network of air traffic facilities has decreased substantially—largely because the FAA has not

effectively leveraged its personnel reform authorities or implemented business-like practices to

better manage operations and costs.

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The FAA has missed opportunities to reduce its operations costs. Notably, the Agency has not

converted any of its FAA-operated towers to the Federal Contract Tower Program since 2000.

Moreover, since 2000, the number of air traffic facilities the FAA operates has remained essentially

unchanged at 317, even though overall air traffic operations have decreased by 20 percent since

fiscal year 1998. In addition, the FAA has not pursued large-scale opportunities to consolidate

current facilities to potentially reduce costs.

Weaknesses of the FAA’s Acquisition Management System (AMS) have impacted the progress of

NextGen programs such as delays in implementing the En Route Automation Modernization

(ERAM) system, DataComm, and initiatives such as trajectory-based operations. While the FAA has

made efforts to improve AMS, it still lacks guidance and best practices for major IT investments and

it does not provide specific guidance to assist program managers in accepting large software

intensive programs, such as ERAM.

While the FAA has taken some action to implement the reform authorities Congress granted almost

two decades ago, it has not achieved the large-scale efficiencies, productivity enhancements, and

cost savings envisioned by these reforms. The Agency’s inability to transcend ongoing problems is

largely due to its failure to fully adopt sound management practices, make knowledge-based

decisions, and assign clear accountability for productivity and results.

The Honorable John Engler, President, Business Roundtable

The U.S. air traffic system remains the world’s largest and the world’s safest. But it is no longer the

most technologically advanced, and it may no longer be the world’s most cost-effective. The

Business Roundtable recently conducted an analysis that superimposed Canadian rates for air traffic

control services on U.S. flight data, and preliminary results suggest that, in aggregate, the Canadians

are delivering services for lower cost than the FAA today. Canada’s cost advantage may result partly

due to a less complex airspace than the U.S. – and complexity drives cost – but one would expect

that the U.S. larger-scale operation would also create its own efficiencies and lower costs. A

modernized U.S. air traffic control system would produce significant benefits for all air travelers.

Advanced technologies and procedures will enable more planes to land and take off safely on

existing runways, reducing delays.

Unfortunately, business leaders cannot take the future health of U.S. aviation for granted. Like many

other stakeholders, we are concerned about the slow and uncertain pace of the modernization effort

represented by NextGen program. Stakeholders have had to question whether we have the best

model – not just for delivering NextGen but also for the ongoing operation and management of what

used to be the world’s most advanced air traffic control system.

Business Roundtable convened a panel of FAA and Transportation Department officials who

identified a series of challenges that put America’s leadership in aviation at risk. All related to

funding, governance, and organizational culture. Funding is the most obvious problem. Last year’s

sequester served as a wake-up call for aviation stakeholders, with its furloughs of controllers and the

near-shutdown of 149 contract towers. The second underlying problem is governance. The Air

Traffic Organization answers to far too many disparate interests. No CEO could effectively run a

business responding to such an array.

The third underlying problem is one of organizational culture. We need a culture of innovation that

will continually modernize as technology continues to advance, not shy away from it.

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Captain Lee Moak, President, Air Line Pilots Association

Contrary to some of the testimony we have heard today, Moak said he believes we are on the verge

of becoming a success story despite 23 short term extensions, unstable funding, and government

shutdowns. NextGen saves time, fuel, emissions, and money while increasing safety. We need an

overhaul like NextGen to prepare for the anticipated influx of customers and growth of the fuel

industry. From what I can see, stakeholders can agree on 95% of how to achieve success with

NextGen, how to implement the programs, and how to modernize our airspace. The 5% of

disagreement stems from how to pay for the advancements and who pays for it. We have a lack of

Federal resources and leadership now for a problem that we know will only get worse in the future.

Continuing to kick the can down the road will only lead to failure.

I believe that the funding must come from a source that is separated from the uncertainty and

crosshairs of Washington politics. We are in the process of updating the largest and most complex

aviation system in the world. This requires everyone to be all in.

The NextGen program is huge and has uncertainties that can be problematic for airlines and others

who are being asked to make large investments. The complexity of NextGen as it matures, and the

critical need to ensure that the billions of dollars represented by this effort are spent wisely and

efficiently, demands strong leadership and effective oversight. Strong FAA leadership is the key to

the success of NextGen, the FAA, and the air traffic control organization. Success in leading the

NextGen effort must include willingness to make hard decision in a timely manner, achieving

balance between large, far-reaching technologically innovative programs and more modest near term

efforts that yield immediate benefits, and staging implementation of key benefits in a continuous-

improvement approach

Current operational performance and cost may not warrant an immediate overhaul similar to that of

the NavCanada model; however NavCanada needs an investigation before anyone thinks that this is

the solution for the United States. We must remember that we are the largest airspace in the world

and just because a system works in Canada, does not mean it is scalable in the U.S. We invented

aviation, we are the global leader, and if we want to hold this title we cannot allow bureaucracy to

hold us back. The aviation industry is plagued with over 17 different taxes that we pay –the aviation

industry has become the piggy bank for programs, some that do not even fund aviation – we are fed

up.

Mr. Mark Baker, President and CEO, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association

The general aviation industry is under stress. Over the past decade, the private pilot population has

been shrinking at a rate of more than 6,000 pilots per year. High costs and a lack of new products

have reduced public interest in general aviation. The general aviation fleet has an average age of

more than 40 years and most aircraft rely on technology that is decades old. To remedy this problem,

long-term FAA Reauthorization is needed. Enactment of a long-term reform-minded FAA bill is

important to help the FAA keep pace with rapid advancements in technology and complete

important safety and modernization projects.

Additionally, medical reform is extremely important. The general aviation community has waited

too long for the FAA to expand the use of the sport pilot standard which would not require a third

class medical exam. This standard has been used successfully and safely by some pilots for more

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than 10 years. It is time we extend the scope so that we can reduce the cost to our general aviation

pilots.

Also certification and regulatory reform are much needed. The FAA’s regulatory and certification

processes are cumbersome and overly prescriptive and must be reformed to ensure that advanced

technologies and safety improvements reach general aviation aircraft and operators. We have been

working since 2008 to streamline and simplify these reforms. Retrofitting processes and procedures

must be streamlined. In its current state, these processes are so difficult and costly that many pilots

chose to simply leave the field than to comply. Something must be done to rectify this.

The FAA’s ADS-B mandate is too costly. The FAA must work with industry and manufacturers to

identify low-cost solutions to ensure that a large segment of the general aviation community can

equip to meet the FAA’s 2020 deadline. As of right now, the cost is beyond the reach of many of

owners and will severely damage the small general aviation business. More than 81,000 of the

188,000 certified piston-powered aircraft on the FAA registry are worth $40,000 or less, and those

aircraft have a weighted average value of $25,800. That puts investing at least $5,000-$6,000 to

install equipment that will only allow aircraft to operate in the same airspace they use today well

beyond the reach of many owners. We need low cost solutions so that everyone can participate.

AOPA does not believe that the FAA has a funding problem. On the contrary, Congress has

increased the FAA’s budget more than 500%, while the number of FAA employees has decreased.

We do not need a user-fee system to implement NextGen and other modernization programs. The

challenge of the FAA is to use those resources given to them to carry out and implement the

Agency’s strategic goals.

Mr. Nicholas Calio, President and CEO, Airlines for America

From a funding perspective, it does not make sense to fund a long-term capital budget through an

annual appropriations process. In today’s budget environment, relying on annual appropriations

creates significant uncertainty on the part of users as to when the FAA will actually have various

NextGen capabilities in place. Annual budget allocations, subject to annual cuts and policy changes,

frequently assures that planned new ATC technologies will be obsolete by the time they are

operational. It also needlessly subjects our ATC system to disruption caused by budget battles on

Capitol Hill, as evidenced following the sequester-driven air traffic controller furloughs.

As we approach the next FAA reauthorization bill, we will have to ask and answer two fundamental

questions: 1) Does the United States have the best governance and funding structures in place to

deliver the most efficient, modern ATC system? 2) Have the ATC models used by other countries

enhanced safety and efficiency, and if so, can the best attributes of these models be adopted by the

United States without adversely impacting safety? If yes, would their adoption improve our system?

At what cost? This is not a criticism of the current FAA system; however, it is necessary to consider

all available options for the future of aviation. If we look to the governance structure and funding

streams of the UK, NavCanada, and Germany – we see that all three models engage airspace users to

a certain degree and that all three models have improved safety and efficiency. We would be remiss

if we did not further investigate these models and see what, if anything, can be used to better

leverage our system here in the United States.

Mr. Paul Rinaldi, President, National Air Traffic Controllers Association

Globalization is driving dramatic changes and we face challenges responding to an unstable budget,

inability to grow the airspace system, to fund long term projects, and disagreements with various

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stakeholders. We cannot face another sequester. We need to be properly funded so that we can

adequately staff our facilities and manage our day to day operations. This only happens with a

proper funding system. With adequate staffing and operation management, then and only then can

we be successful in implementing NextGen processes. Otherwise, there is a mandate to train

employees on NextGen programs in a facility that is already understaffed and cannot handle the day

to day workload much less than the additional NextGen burden. This only strains our facilities and

puts the safety and efficiency of our airspace system at risk.

The air traffic controllers are the backbone to operations, we never want to short staff our facilities.

Air traffic controllers are the subject matter experts that help us develop and train for all new hires in

the NextGen system. We cannot under any circumstance treat aviation like we did in 2013. We

absolutely need a stable funding steam, proper governance, and UAV community integration so that

we can increase economic development and create more jobs.

We are in a transition period. The FAA is working to implement NextGen modernization projects

that will deploy new technology and equipment. In order to keep pace with these modernization

projects and the rest of the world, the FAA needs to be properly funded and staffed, which can only

happen with stable and predictable funding. We all have a stake in this economic engine, which

contributes $1.5 trillion annually to our GDP and employs 12 million Americans. Congress, the

FAA, and industry will need to work together to ensure that our airspace remains the safest and most

efficient airspace in the world.

Q&A

Aviation Subcommittee Chairman Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ-2) asked Inspector General Scovel to

report on the results of a joint aviation and industry taskforce put together to create an

implementation plan for NextGen. The Chairman also asked how open the FAA is to

implementation of some of the NextGen Advisory Council (NAC) recommendations that came out

last month. Inspector General Scovel said DOT has reviewed the information that the joint

taskforce has put together and reaffirmed FAA’s commitment to NAC’s recommendations. IG

Scovel stated that these recommendations have been vitally important and that DOT is encouraged

by the recommendations and NAC’s commitment to performance based navigation, surface

operations, and DataComm. Scovel assured the Committee that the FAA has endorsed these three

recommendations and will move out on implementing them. Performance based navigation was the

one area IG Scovel highlighted as potentially troublesome, as the FAA has historically had problems

with developing these types of procedures. Mr. Calio agreed with IG Scovel in that performance

based navigation (PBN) is critical. However, he added that the roll out is going painfully slow

despite best efforts. PBN has moved city to city, metroplex to metroplex with not much to show in

the way of results. Mr. Calio stated that process and procedures to get planes to use PBN is not

happening quickly and it needs to be more scalable across the country, otherwise it will take years to

implement. Mr. Rinaldi agreed with NAC’s recommendations but did stipulate that changing flows

in and out of a metroplex is extremely complex – procedures are tested and tested and tweaked and

that is not an easy thing to do. He said the one thing that will further slow this process down is

unstable funding.

Aviation Subcommittee Ranking Member Rick Larsen (D-WA-2) asked Mr. Rinaldi what

hesitations air traffic controllers would have with changes to the ATO? Mr. Rinaldi responded by

saying that any time a process or organization is changed, there is always hesitation, his only

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comment was that if we are going to make changes to the ATO, whatever they may be, it cannot

interrupt the flow of airplanes. Ranking Member Larsen then followed up by inquiring about the

concerns of separating air traffic from the FAA. Mr. Moak answered by saying that the U.S. has the

safest airspace in the world – the best pilots, controllers, and procedures. The idea that we would go

to another system should cause everyone to pause. He assured the committee that the current system

is performing well and while modernization needs to occur and that everyone can do better on PBN

– the country should proceed cautiously with throwing out the current system.

Aviation Subcommittee Ranking Member Rick Larsen (D-WA-2) asked what the flip the switch

moment would be to demonstrate progress. Mr. Engler responded that the COO of ATO’s

responsibilities being modified was a step in the right direction. But he also echoed the sentiment of

‘don’t mess too much with the way it works’. He stipulated that there are challenges within the FAA,

specifically, funding and the lack of a capital budgeting process. Modernizing procedures and

practices within the FAA need to take place. In his opinion, the flip the switch moment is not so

much a disruptive thing as it is a transition that takes place and it takes time and cannot be abrupt.

Rep. Massie (R-KY-4) wanted a further explanation as to how the FAA’s approval process could be

making general aviation more risky and wanted to know what needs to change with the approval

process…specifically, he wanted to know if the issue is that technology is taking too long to be

certified and approved. Mr. Baker confirmed that the certification process is an issue; he likened the

situation to getting an FM radio in a car with an AM radio but having it take years and be at a cost

that it would not be worth upgrading at all. He says there needs to be an expedited process. The FAA

has not moved to do that. What needs to be done, according to Mr. Baker, is put older aircraft into a

legacy program, that way you are not changing all aircraft but adding a panel to the existing

infrastructure to make it safer. Additionally, it terms of a less costly entry point for ADS-B, Mr.

Baker used the example of a ping out system – the cost to retrofit is anywhere from $5,000-$6000 on

an aircraft that cost $25,000 – making it very cost prohibitive which leads pilots to put their aircraft

in boneyards. Mr. Baker is working with the FAA and the General Aviation Manufacturers

Association to see if there are other portable lower cost devices that can ping out at an adequate level

– thereby providing safety at a reasonable cost.

Rep. Massie (R-KY-4) asked IG Scoval how far behind the FAA is on integration of UAS and UAV

into the nation’s airspace? IG Scoval responded that the FAA is quite behind on mandates put forth

in 2012 by Congress. They were slow in designating test sites and the plans to develop data and

learn from operations at the test sites have not been prepared. The FAA has a long way to go on

UAS and UAV integration. However, IG Scoval did say that the FAA has promised to release the

small UAS rule by the end of the year. Mr. Moak then offered that like commercial aviation –

UAS/UAV need to be safe – we need to know where all the planes are. Mr. Moak urged the

Committee to be careful and to apply the same principles that we use in commercial aviation to UAS

– we need to certify the pilot of the UAS, the UAS itself, it all needs to be the same standard.

Rep. DeFazio (D-OR-4) mentioned that procurement for FAA is worse than the Pentagon and

wanted to know how to fix it? He then discussed the disputes over ADS-B and wanted to know why

we can’t harmonize the process, i.e. have Europe and the U.S. to move together on schedule of

adoption. On the issue of air traffic control, Mr. DeFazio felt that he could not find a safer system

than ours and said that back when he was Ranking Member of the Aviation Subcommittee, the U.S.

was virtually just as productive as Canada, therefore, making any changes to the system is difficult

for him to understand but that he is open to that discussion. Mr. DeFazio also wanted to know why

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the FAA sends controllers who just graduated from the Academy to high level facilitates, where in

Mr. DeFazio’s opinion they are going to be set up for failure? Mr. Rinaldi responded that more

controllers could be retained if they were sent to a lower level facility so that they could hone their

skills there, instead of being shipped off to the busy TRACONS. The nation’s big TRACONS are

struggling with staffing because of this FAA practice of sending a new controller to Atlanta,

Chicago, or New York and then 6 months later having controllers quit. NATCA is working on this

issue but according to Mr. Rinaldi they are working it at a “FAA speed.” NATCA has had some

ideas but it was a drawn our process and a good plan is taking a long time to implement. Mr. Calio

then answered the question regarding harmonizing with Europe on ADS-B and if that would

eliminate some of the concerns of the airlines by saying that the FAA is embracing standards before

they have done a cost benefit analysis. So while harmonizing is one part of the equation, actually

making a business case for it is critical. Not doing this, has been a consistent problem of the FAA.

Mr. DeFazio wanted to know if there was a real difference between the real time updates that ADS-

B provides and the current system. Mr. Rinaldi responded that the more accurate and timelier

information we can receive, especially at an enroute facility, where you can get constant updates on

aircraft moving at high speeds, is very valuable, but at a lower level facility, he was not sure if there

was bang for buck.

Rep. Graves (R-MO-6) asked IG Scoval how many commercial and general aviation aircraft are

going to be affected by the mandate. IG Scoval responded that about 220,000 general aviation

aircraft are subjected to the mandate and about 18,000 commercial aircraft. However, these numbers

will move up and down. DOT believes between now and 2020 – the numbers will hold generally

firm in that range due to the ability of the manufacturing industry to produce the equipment, the

ability of the FAA to certify it in a timely fashion, and time and space issues for aircraft owners to

get their planes into repair facilities so the boxes can be installed. Rep. Graves (R-MO-6) then

asked that with NextGen implementation, if there was going to be two systems operating – radar and

ADS-B. Mr. Moak stated that while there have been issues with ADS-B mandates, ADS-B is

revolutionary and we need it, we needed it as long as 5 years ago. There is a need for ADS-B and it

will help tremendously. He understands that cost is a disagreement, but says we need to work

together on that and work through the hiccups instead of letting the hiccups define the system. He

also mentioned that during any of these large transitions, we have always had two systems – it is rare

for there to be an instant switch where everyone makes the conversion at the same time. Mr. Baker

reiterated general aviation’s concerns about the cost. He agreed that ADS-B is a benefit but is

concerned about the time and cost to receive the benefit. He also confirmed that for a period of time,

we will essentially have two systems operating simultaneously. Mr. Calio also expressed that ADS-

B is a cornerstone of NextGen. He conceded that while we always start with two systems, once we

get past all that, we will have a much better and safer system.

Rep. Capuano (D-MA-7) expressed concern that while everyone has discussed the importance of

steady funding, no one has said where we should get those funds and asked the group if they had

suggestions. Mr. Moak stated that we need to encourage the FAA to use private enterprise

principles when implementing this system. He also mentioned the importance of getting rid of the

waste within the FAA and the importance in avoiding a situation where we are ramping up for a

system overhaul and then have the funding come to an end with something like sequester. Mr.

Engler also added that he believes the federal government should have a capital budget process,

something that pretty much every state has. A big capital project like NextGen would be done…you

get a bond issued…get the money from there and then you would go out and carefully invest that

money.

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Chairman Bill Shuster (R-PA-9) commented that it is pretty apparent that the system does not

work as it should and that we need to be looking at all the systems around the world. He mentioned

the NavCanada example, and was startled that we are 9x the size of Canada and spend 20x more.

Mr. Engler agreed and reiterated the importance of stakeholder engagement. No one has agreed on

a funding model. That is why the work we are doing is trying to understand what options might be

there and what funding models might look like, but my sense has been if you can get all the

stakeholders together, you can have success. On the governance side, the same thing is true – pilots,

controllers, general aviation – all will want and need a seat at the table. This is sort of the model used

in.

Rep. Esty (D-CT-5) says that there are two issues: funding and timing. Benefits don’t occur until we

have a critical mass. She suggested a carrot and stick model. One way to do that is to set a date

where all equipment must be retrofitted. A financial penalty will occur for those who are late to

complete the change while a financial incentive will be given to early adopters. She then asked the

panel if anyone would care to comment on what kind of timeline is realistic to retrofit. Mr. Calio

said that it is a complicated question for airlines that have had deadlines in the past. The problem lies

in the processes and making sure the equipment works and that there is an ROI on equipment.

Airlines have a deadline for ADS-B in 2020, yet as Mr. Calio states, we are not harmonized with the

world yet. We have aircraft in our fleets that have equipment on it we can’t use because people

aren’t trained to use it. Deadlines don’t always solve the problem. We are making progress, the

Houston Metroplex brought elements on line – great job there – we are looking to mimic that across

the country. The FAA continues to work, but again private enterprise principles applied in the public

sector and stable funding that allows the FAA to do a better job are musts if we really want to make

any progress. Mr. Engler added that giving stakeholders the ability to prioritize what procedures

come first and giving preference to those that are high value, high pay off and deliver a quick return.

Rep. Meadows (R-NC-11) discussed that when Congress has asked for deadlines and plans for

implementation of NextGen – the Administrator and FAA officials start to sweat. Mr. Meadows then

asked IG Scoval to what degree of confidence on a scale of 1-10 do you have that the FAA will be

able to implement. IG Scoval reiterated that the update is necessary and has to be done, but was less

than 5 on a scale of 1-10 on confidence that it will be done in the 2020 timeframe. Mr. Meadows

then shifted the conversation to Europe asking if their approach is better than ours as they have put a

greater focus on stakeholder engagement. IG Scoval answered by saying that ground installation is

done which is 1/3 of the equation. He admitted that we still have a long way to go in terms of

training and stakeholder engagement but was confident that we are going to make our plan work.

Rep. Lipinski (D-IL-3) asked the panel if financial incentives would be enough in terms of ADS-B.

Mr. Calio said the best incentive is to deploy equipment and a process so that the airlines can make

an ROI and bring passengers to their destinations faster and more efficient than we do now. Mr.

Baker also commented that for the general aviation marketplace, anything that lower costs is vital.

So a financial incentive or a portable device or anything that could lower costs for general aviation –

we would want to consider. Rep. Lipinski (D-IL-3) then discussed the fire at the Aurora facility, as

Midway airport is in his district, he wanted to express his appreciation for the work that NATCA and

PASS did to restore service to that facility and remedy that situation. He then inquired about the

group collaborations between NATCA, PASS, and the FAA - what recommendations have been

made to keep facilities online and will finalizing NextGen help achieve that outcome? Mr. Rinaldi

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said the result of the working group is still in its infancy stage and is in the process of review to go

through approval through DOT at this time Mr. Lipinski then followed up by saying that the fire

suppression system at Aurora used water to put out the fire and while that did work to put out the

fire, he asked if there is a need to look at other fire suppression systems that can put out a fire and

save lives without compromising the equipment. Mr. Rinaldi said that the security panel that

NATCA participated in is looking at all options and will be following up with the Committee

regarding this issue. IG Scoval said that the Department will review all options and that it is a

significant concern for the Agency going forward.

Rep. Davis (R-IL-13) asked Mr. Calio what the disconnect is on NextGen and what ROI can the

taxpayer expect to see on the investment? Mr. Calio responded that there are benefits that are

already being realized – we have put in procedures where planes can take off quicker. More needs to

be done though. The ROI will come when the business processes are put in place. Our problem is

that the system currently does not allow for it, if you were a business doing a capital investment –

you would approach it incrementally, you would look at ROI, you would have stakeholder input, and

the FAA hasn’t always done this. Mr. Rinaldi said that his frustration is that the U.S. is still the

safest and more efficient system and we are doing it piece by piece, we have revamped all of the

Texas airspace, Houston has seen major optimization – we have a playbook to move forward. It’s

not a flip of the switch. We still have the legacy system. But we will move forward. Mr. Baker also

commented that people adapt where there is a value and he is in favor of implementing ADS-B

where it makes sense. Rep. Davis (R-IL-13) then inquired about UAS integration; he commented

that Canada and France are much further along than the U.S. as Canada has issued over 1,500

commercial approvals for UAS whereas the U.S. has issued 7. Mr. Davis wanted to know if the U.S.

had reviewed other countries’ best practices and leveraged those in making our UAS rules. IG

Scoval was unsure if other nations’ best practices regarding UAS had been looked at and promised

to find out and report back.

Chairman Bill Shuster (R-PA-9) closed the hearing thanking all participants for their time. He also

left the Committee with a final thought that Congress needs to look at something different from the

process standpoint and funding standpoint. Congress needs to do it together – all the stakeholders,

it’s not going to be Shuster and Mr. DeFazio alone. When President Clinton and President Bush

hatched a plan to reform aviation, they got slaughtered when it came to the floor because they didn’t

include the stakeholders. Mr. Shuster promised to continue to work with both members of the aisle

and stakeholders. September is the due date so Congress needs to strap on helmets and figure out

how to do this.