fbi transcripts

7/30/2019 FBI transcripts

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EXAMPLES OF FBI WIRETAPS REQUESTED BY W.R. WATSON, NPR

On Saturday evening, July 27th

, 1964 Martin called me at home to discuss the riots

that had recently occurred in the upstate town of Rochester New York as well as in New

York City and to seek my advice. He said that while I am organizationally linked to the

South so many people in other sections look to me for national leadership. Below are

excerpts from the FBI transcripts of their wiretaps of our conversation:

Martin: I am trying to decide what I can do in the situationI know it would be

unwise for me to come to New York City at this time and make a speech inBedford Stuyvesantnot that the people by and large would not listen to me but

the Communist groups would do everything they could do to discredit me so they

would boo me down and not give me a chance to talk, so that would be a mistake.Ill have to think of other means.

CBJ : Right

Martin: While I was thinking of it, DAVE LIVINGSTON, called me and said

Mayor Wagner want to have sort of an off the record meeting with me. He wants

to get my advice on how to deal with it.

CBJ: Right.

Martin: The first thing I said was that I didnt think it was wise for him[MayorWagner] to meet me before meeting with the Negro leaders of New York because

it could look like a calming behind the scene. I said it could be possible after that

and he said they had met with him today. Is that right?

CBJ: They may have..

Martin: Well first, I want to get some advice fromsomebody in New YorkI

want to get somebody to give me advice as I have tentatively committed myself to

meet the Mayor Monday night.

CBJ: I have a reaction to that first of all the New York Manhattan

community leadership including black nationalists to the NAACP met Friday

night---I dont know if they had a representative body from that meeting meet with

the Mayor but I do know that there is a great feeling that the Mayor is notproviding sufficient amount of flexibility and receptivity to the proposals of the

Negro committee leadership. I think that if you were to meet with the Mayor

under any circumstances that could look as if the Mayor was avoiding or goingover the headsthe only person who would come out the worst could be yourself.


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First of all I think if there is to be a meeting it should be after a meeting with the

Negro leadership. I would have to check as to if there was a meeting today. I think

it would be politically unwise.

Martin: Yeah, thats what I thought

CBJ It would appear that you were the behind the scene compromiser. It maybe that you could play the role providing the city with an opportunity to make

concessions where they otherwise could make them, but if its done under the

wrong circumstances you could be accused of being a Tom or not consulting withlocal leadership

Martin: Yeahthe other thing is I would have to be free to analyze and assess

the situation as I see it and do it honestly. I must say the Mayor, as you say, hasnot given the kind of leadership that the magnitude of the situation demands.

CBJ: Absolutely

Martin: Somewhere I would have to say something like that.

CBJ You would have to say it Martin because the real tragedy is that aBAYARD RUSTING and JIM FARMER are going up through the streets of

Harlem and essentially nobody is listening to them and nobody is listenening to

the more responsible leadership because they are not in a position to come backto the discontented with any concrete results. I think the Mayor has made some

terrible blunderswhether he or we like it or not, the average Negro in the city of

New York in a ghetto, views the policeman as someone who is not going to protect

his rights, but is going to beat his head and that this is not longer a question ofwhether there is police brutality. There is widespread acceptance within the

Negro community that the police are more vicious and harsh towards Negroes

than they are to anyone in any other section and that no matter what Negroes say,I have experienced this in court representing several people arrested in the riots--

-five Negroes can swear with affidavits that they saw a policeman do such and

such and the policeman can deny it and the statement of the five Negroes is givenno weight whatsoever,

Martin: Do you think this meeting should be on or off the record? That is, if he

has met with Negro leaders and I consent to meet with him

CBJ: Who has invited you?

Martin: DAVE said he called him and he asked if he thought I would meetwith him and asked him to get in touch with me---so he is definitively inviting

meI told DAVE that I dont see how I can have an off-the record conference.


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CBJ: I dont see how you could and the whole idea of meeting bothers me

because you may engender resentment unless you come with the demands that

they were not able to achieve. There is something that bothers me about the

Mayor calling in and you and I dont know who else will be in the meeting, butthere are elements in the coalition of Negroes that have been working together

and have been trying to put a united front to the Mayor who will say you werecalled in behind the scenes to make a compromise to be a Tom or you see theMayor is in a difficult position and I hope he is not using you to extricate himself.

If he is willing to make some fundamental concessions---thats one thing, but I

would say the only way you could participate without bringing the wrath of thebroadest section of the Negro organizations would be with (1) that you came out

with a victorythat is an independent civilian review board had been granted;

that he conceded that this was something that should be done or (2) you met with

some the Negro leadership and got their blessings beforehand.

Martin: Of course, I dont thinkthis will happenthey would be thoroughly

opposed.

CBJ: Right

Martin: Now the only way I could see itin any sensefirst it is not off therecordnot behind the scenes and secondly that its clearly stated that he invited

meand thirdly, that inviting me he invites me because that he has beenhe has

to say something about my leadershipand the struggle that has been led in the

South by mein other words he would have to make it appear that he is invitingme because he is trying to find a solution; because he wants my advice.

CBJ: Thats right, thats right, if hes inviting you because he wants yourthoughtful advice and deliberation, you know. In other words, you know you are

nationally the civil rights spokesmanso that, if he is inviting you on that basis

then possibly it could be done.

Martin:Thats the only thing---thats the thing Im thinking aboutsee I dont

want to make a mistake here you knowit going to be much more difficult for the

non-violent leadership from here on in the North especiallyin part because, youknow, the discontent and disenchantment with non-violence and really and the

North is void of leadership in many points.

CBJ: So: Im concerned about the complexion of the meeting, you know the kindofmeeting it is. I am uncomfortable that you are going to be meeting unless

there is some other participation from the Negro communitythat bothers me a

little bitjust that it isnt MARTIN LUTHER KING sitting down with five or six


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white City officials. You know, a couple of people trying to work out the problems

of the Negro community.

Martin: Yeah.

CBJ: There is a verywell lets put it this waythere is an almost total absenceof confidence on the part of the broadest cross section of people in Harlem and Bedford-

Stuyvesant in the police department The Mayor is being stupid because to have an

independent civilian review board is not a big concession; its just to let a significant

section of the population have greater confidence that their complaints will be heard.

At my suggestion, to get some on the ground intelligence the following day, ,

Martin called Bayard Rustin. He was one of the leaders who was involved in the

communitys efforts to get the Mayorto establish and independent Police Civilian

Review Board. FBI transcripts of that conversation indicated the following:

Time Initial IC

OG

Activity Recorded

7:00 pm IC MARTIN (LUTHER KING) to BAYARD RUSTIN

MARTIN: I want to get your thinking on one or two things. FirstI guess a general

question then a specific thing. I have been trying to think a great deal ab

the violence that has been erupting not only in Harlem and Brooklyn but

in Rochester, and maybe other places and what I could do or what my ro

as a leader in the non-violent revolution and as one the people look to as

moral guidance. And I frankly havent come out come up with an answe

thought you could help me on this. Another thing is thatAAAAAAA came and said that MAYOR WAGNER wanted to talk with me about the

problem in N.Y. Just as kind of getting advice sort of thing and the first

Ive thought about was the local leadership and t his fact I could put mys

a bad position if I went to see him before he talked with local leaders. It

would make kind of look like a tom and one working in the backgroun

say the negroes in substance that they ought to give up any just demands

grievances and all of this. So the first thing I said I definitely wouldnt m

with him until he had met with negro leaders. Well AAAA told me yest

that he had met with the local leadership there and on the basis of that I h

set up a sort of tentative meeting with him for tomorrow nite. But Im st

not sure it is the best thing to do so I want to get your thinking on the wh

thing and the situation as it now stands.

BAYARD: The situation as it now stands is that last nite it was quiet. But on the radiotoday there was a national program NBC with me and FARMER, CLEV

ROBINSON & a guy from the NAACP and we all had to take the positio

that the Mayor has been derelict in his duties. He has not done the thing

ought to have been done. It seems to me that there is a very serious prob

about your seeing him, in a situation where all the other leaders are sayin

isnt doing enough. Unless you have some way to point out to him and t

imply when you come out that you told him that. Otherwise you will re

be in a fix.

MARTIN: Unhuh. Thats good. Im glad you said that because that is the one thing I


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7:00 pm (cont)

to myself that I would have to be free to even criticize the Mayor if I wan

to. But certainly be free to say to the press that I said to him that I thoug

demands of the negro community were just demands and that he needed

on them immediately.

BAYARD: Right. Now if you were able to come out and say something like this. Wh

a variation of what I have been saying: That Law and order do not exist

vacuum. To the degree that you

have justice- to that degree can law and order be maintained. Add that where justice is

existent, frustration will break out in some form. Either negroes being unjust to themse

preying on themselves, using violence on themselves, or someone else. Ann the root

problem is to get rid of the situation. And that I urge MAYOR WAGNER to face the

housing, school and job problem and that many negro leaders in NYC were united in se

these as the major problem. And that you had urged the Mayor to act vigorously on th

Now this would be helpful. Nothing short of that could do anything other than spoil yo

image.

MARTIN: -ea. Well I think you are exactly right. And I just wanted to be sure I was.

Because he had talked about an off-the-record conference. That would b

another thing.

BAYARD: No. Dont do that MARTIN. No sir! You have to be free when you com

to make a statement to the press in which you urge the Mayor to get on w

here housing, to integrate these schools, and to find jobs for the unemploWithout that youre in a box. You mustnt be used that way.

MARTIN: Now beyond that. What do you think is needed for me at this time?

BAYARD: Well frankly MARTIN I would like to think about this seriously.

MARTIN: You see I think it would be a mistake to come to any of these situations to m

a speech to bring about a cessation of the violence. Ive done this in sou

communities but I think that some of these groups would be so determin

repudiate me that they would organize groups toI never would get a ch

to speak.

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PM

Employees Name Date Stamp

The next day, July 27th

, 1964, FBI transcripts reveal more clearly the effort of

Rustin and the Negro community leadership to use and manipulate Martins prestige and

stature to get Mayor Wagner to agree to their demands. The FBI transcribed Rustins

conversation with a third party only identified as Caller:

Time Initial IC

OG

Activity Recorded

1:12 PM IC AAAAAAA to BAYARD RUSTIN. Caller asks if RUSTIN is coming with him this evenin

to meet MARTIN KING. RUSTIN explains that he has a speaking

engagement tonight up at Ethical. Caller says that at least RUSTIN can giv

me some idea of what your thoughts are. Caller says that KING issued a

release this morning on the meeting with the Mayor, and t hat KING told me

of youre concern that there be no strings on anything he said, and no

attempt to keep the story from anybody. Caller says I had previously told

the Mayors people that he didnt think that KING could come in here and

keep it a secret, and that MARTIN would have to be absolutely free to make


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any criticism he wanted, and that as far as the press was concerned, I would

expect the Mayor to say that he had had previous association with Dr. KING,

that he knows our problems are continuing, and while he doesnt expect Dr.

KING to answer what to do on block 33, that he has a high regard for him and

he thought an exchange of opinions would help him, the Mayor, in developing

further approaches to this problem. He said he would say that. I had

previously cleared the essence of that with MARTIN. RUSTIN says that

there are four things he wants to point out: #1/ The meeting must be known to

the public. #2/ He ought not to come in here unless he is in agreement with th

demands of the Negro community here. Caller interjects that the worst he

could say is that he is not equipped to pass on some of the demands. RUSTIN

says that in general he has to say that he has consulted with various segments

of the Unity Committee and that he is in basic agreement with their demands

and they are just demands. #3/ He needs to say something to the effect that

law and order are by products of justice, and that from his point of view of

non-violence he knows that it is extremely difficult to maintain non-violence i

a vacuum, that it too has to spring from a developing justice. Caller says hel

say that naturally. RUSTIN continues (#4?) and something to the effect tha

he is extremely pleased to talk with the Mayor, and that he has made certain

suggestions to the Mayor, that he doesnt want to make them public because

this is the king of a conversation where give and take would be impossible ifthere were going to be a lot of noise about what was said, but that he did make

the points clear that he felt that the demands of this Negro community were

just ones and he has urged the Mayor to act on them. Caller says he thought

that maybe KING should make one specific suggestion and offers his services

in this regard, and that would be to get a genuine discussion between the

Mayor and the broadly representative leaders of the community, because that

hasnt taken place. RUSTIN comments that he can say that to the Mayor, bu

he cant say that publicly. Caller asks why. RUSTIN says Because hes

gonna get jumped on it, because AAAAAAAAA (PH) and AAAAAAAA (PH

have been telling everybody that they are in continuous touch with the Mayor

and that if he says that, then theyre gonna say Well now who the hell is he

after we have got things going to come in here and tell us we ought to be

talking to our Mayor?. Caller says that when AAAAA(PH) asked him to caMARTIN about seeing the Mayor, caller told him, (and I had gotten this

feeling also from CLEAVE (PH)) that I dont think that MARTIN can meet

with you if you havent already met with local leadership, and asked Why

dont you set up a meeting on Saturday morning., but Im absolutely certain

that meeting would not have taken place except as a by-product of the Mayor

desire to talk to MARTIN. RUSTIN says that may be the case. Caller says

that he feels that KING should just say that continuing discussion of the

substance of the problems and what to do about them is the one indispensable

condition for making progress. , RUSTIN says right. Caller refers to

RUSTINS statement that KING should associate himself with the demands o

the community, and asks which ones. Civilian review board, suspension of

GILLIGAN, while the investigation is in progress. Caller asks Action on

MURPHY? and RUSTIN says that Everybody has said action on MURPHYhowever I dont know that MARTIN needs to go that far. Caller agrees and

says that he thinks that that is scapegoatism. RUSTIN says he doesnt think

so, he thinks it is an extremely proper demand because MURPHY ordered

force to be used. CALLER says he agrees with the part, but that he thinks tha

it is not just MURPHY but WAGNER and SCREVANE too. RUSTIN says

think anything MURPHY wants, WAGNER is such a sissy, and hell give

him. Caller says that that may be. RUSTIN also refers to shakedowns of

prostitutes, numbers racketeers, etc., by the police, and that this man must

go. CALLER says that maybe MARTIN should be less careful about it


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then, and RUSTIN points out that he doesnt have facts. RUSTIN repeats

that KING should say he backs up the demand of the local leaders or else

should stay out of here. Caller agrees. He says that since the Mayor asked,

it is hard to say no, and that he should point out that Northern problems shoul

not be ignored by him as a national leader, and that he welcomed the invitatio

by the Mayor, and to urge constant consultation with the local leaders.

RUSTIN says he thinks that MARTIN should make a general statement that a

over the country, not only in New York, one of the basic problems which we

face is economic and then go into his spiel about his special economic

program which he presented before the Republic convention. Caller agrees,

but points out that this is a brilliant man, and that he doesnt need u to figur

out things. RUSTIN says yes, but that without a list of points in front of him,

MARTIN can flub the dub. Caller says that maybe RUSTIN should get

someone to take his place tonight, and RUSTIN says he has put them off three

times already, and it would be very difficult to do so again, but he will try, and

will let caller know. Caller says to call him anyway to find out for sure when

he is coming in. RUSTIN asks what time caller would be leaving. Caller

says he assumes KING will be coming in at eight something, and that I

will be going up to get CLEAVE (PH), and then go meet him and that he

assumes we would spend an hour or so together and then all go up to Gracie

Mansion around 10:00. RUSTIN asks if that means wed sit in on thediscussion. And would be those present, and that I and CLEAVE would

bring MARTIN there and sit in, and I suppose AAAAAAAAAAA(PH) will

likewise. Caller says he assumes that MARTIN would want to have you

there, and I

Day Mon Date 7/27/64

PM

Employees Name Date Stamp

Finally, the next day the following:

11:03 AM IC BAYARD: Let me tell you. The day the Mayor got back he asked Martin to come to NewYork. Martin refused saying that until you have met with the Unity Committ

and until I have met with them, after they meet with you, I cannot come in.

Now Martin called me yesterday and said the Mayor had called him and asked

him to come in for last night. I got a hold of AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and

said Martin cannot meet with the Mayor until hes met with your committee.

AAAAAA kept telling me he would have an answer, he would have an answe

At five oclock I tried to finally pin him down, with the understanding that

Martin would proceed to New York. AAAAAAAA told me he was yesterday

afternoon with the executive commit of the Unity Committee. They had an

executive committee that was meeting all yesterday afternoon. Up until six

fifteen, AAAAAA told me bring King to Harlem, the committee will meet wi

him. I said who is on the committee. He said were in the business of debatin

now who will meet with him. When we got to Harlem, it was only then thatwe discovered that the Committee had turned down meeting with Martin. No

Martin had to proceed on. Now let me tell you the precautions we had taken.

had written up a statement for Martin which included the following things.

Complete endorsement of the Unity Committees proposals and no discussion

with the Mayor except about those proposals. Number two, that Martin had

come in because Harlem was the capitol of the Negro world and that such

problems as Jobs could not be settled in New York, that they had to be settled

to get Federal funds to help. Number three, that Martin thought he was

meeting with the Committee. Number four that he had told the Mayor he


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wouldnt come until he had met with Negro leaders. Number five, that if the

Mayor proposed anything to Martin, Martin would then insist that

representatives of t he Unity Committee be there if the Mayor was offering

anything. Now Martin is a national leader and if the President or the Mayor o

some important city calls him he cant say no. He can set up conditions. Now

let me tell you what I think. This Committee is not a Committee which can b

workable. The Unity Committee. It is a Committee which is destructive. It i

a Committee in which AAAAAAA is making a play for power; it is a

Committee in which AAAAAAA is not living up to his best ideals because

hes acting like a lawyer for a group instead of being a person. Now the

minute you touch anything, Schools, Jobs or Housing, this Committee has to

break apart over the question of integration as against separation. Now why

should anybody therefore ultimately pay any attention to these people?

BAYARD: I didnt know. Who did?

The meeting last night condemned Martin Kings meeting with the Mayor.

BAYARD: This is very interesting because I just talked with AAAAAAAAAAAA and he

told me there was no such condemnation passed.

I dont know if it was passed, but it came over the radio this morning.

BAYARD: At the Press Conference this afternoon Martin will give a complete history,

because Im in the process of writing it, which tells the truth of what happeneAnother thing. Harlem will be better off the sooner that dam Committee is

disbanded.

I agree.

BAYARD: If I know anything, its politics. If that Unity Committee continues, with you in

it and AAAAA in it and a bunch of other people prominent in HARYOU-ACT

it is going to be destructive to HARYOU-ACT.

It is. And I told AAAAAAAAAA this. Were not going to meet with them anymore.

BAYARD: I am telling you that Martin had excellent advice on how to proceed, and he

proceeded properly, and ultimately this will be made clear. Ive been trying t

find out whether its possible for Martin to meet now with th e SteeringCommittee. And I have just concluded, and intend to tell Martin, that to meet

with that weighted Committee of Nationalist is only to give them an

opportunity to get in the papers in a vicious attack on non-violence. Thats

what theyre after. Martin is at the Americana. (END)

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