hardball 3_13_2009

8/6/2019 Hardball 3_13_2009

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updated 3/13/2009 10:27:30 AM ET

Guest: Frank Gaffney, David Corn, Bill Cosby,

Alvin Poussaint, Eugene Robinson, Richard

Wolffe

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Still fighting the war.

Letµs play HARDBALL.

Good evening.Iµm Chris Matthews. Leading off:

It never stops. Last night on HARDBALL, I had

a pretty good tiff with former Bush spokesman

Ari Fleischer. We both gave it a good effort,

and I hope he comes back.

That said, I didnµt catch something he said

right at the end of his appearance just as I was

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thanking him for coming on. I didnµt hear it

until I watched the 7:00 oµclock edition last

night. But a lot of people caught it when it first

aired and didnµt like it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: Ari, agree to disagree.

ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE

PRESS SECRETARY: ... and I believe this still

today. And of course, you and I disagree with

it. But after September 11, having been hit

once, how could we take a chance that

Saddam might not strike again? And thatµs the

threat that has been removed, and I think we

µre all safer with that threat being removed.

MATTHEWS: OK.And I am glad-

FLEISCHER: And Iµm proud to take that

argument.

MATTHEWS: ... that we no longer have an

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administration that uses that kind of

argument. Thank you very much, Ari Fleischer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: ³We could not take the chance

that Saddam Hussein might strike again.´

Well, the problem with that statement is that

Saddam Hussein didnµt attack the United

States on 9/11. A lot of people were led to

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'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Thursday, March 12

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

believe he did by statements coming directly

from President Bush and Vice President

Cheney and that made the case for them, got

them to back the war, a kind of ³Remember

Pearl Harbor´ kind of thing.

And in fact, in addition to all that talk about

nuclear threat from Saddam and all that m

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ushroom cloud talk, this was the gut deal

maker, the big, nasty, powerful untruth that

led so many middle-of-the road Americans to b

uy the Bush case for war, that Saddam

Hussein had attacked us on 9/11 and we had

to stop him from attacking us again. Three

quarters of the American people bought that

untruth.

Ari told me this afternoon that this is not what

he meant last night on HARDBALL. He didnµt

mean that Saddam Hussein attacked us on

9/11 but instead that Saddam had attacked

other countries before and could attack us.

That said, weµre going to listen to the message

that was coming out of the White House back

when it mattered, back in the run-up to war

and even after we invaded. Letµs start with Vice

President Dick Cheney telling the story of how

the leader of 9/11, Mohammed Atta,

supposedly coordinated the 9/11 attack with

Saddam Hussein.

And last night, you heard President Bushµs

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spokesman say it again, that they didnµt want

Saddam Hussein to attack us again. Weµre

going at that right this minute.

Then tonightµs main event, Bill Cosby on the

power and importance of President Barack

Obama to change America. What can he do,

and what can others²what do they have to do

themselves?

We begin tonight with David Corn of ³Mother

Jones´ magazine and former assistance

defense secretary Frank Gaffney, whoµs with

the Center for Security Policy.

Frank, let me talk to you about last night and

what happened here when Ari Fleischer made

that statement, which he later adjusted and

said he didnµt mean it exactly the way it came

across, that Saddam Hussein had to be

prevented from attacking again and thatµs why

we went to war with Iraq. Your thoughts?

FRANK GAFFNEY, FMR ASST. SECRETARY OF

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DEFENSE: Well, I think itµs important that you

read it back, Chris, because he didnµt say

attack us again, so I think Ari was right in his

characterization of it as Saddam Hussein

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could not be allowed to attack again wherever,

including, as he had repeatedly promised to do

in exacting revenge against the United States

for the humiliation that we inflicted upon him

in Desert Storm.

And as you and I have talked, sometimes with

David, sometimes without him, in the past, we

know on the basis of the investigation that

was conducted inside Iraq after the place was

liberated that he had plans to put chemical and

biological agent in aerosol sprayers and

perfume sprayers for shipment to the United

States and Europe. Thatµs the kind of terrorist

threat that I think President Bush was right in

preemptively stopping and removing Saddam

Hussein.

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MATTHEWS: The polling that took place before

we attacked, conducted by ³Time´ and CNN, s

howed that 72 percent of the American

people, nearly three quarters, believed it was

likely that Saddam Hussein was involved in the

attack on us 9/11. How do you think they got

that idea, that somehow going to war with Iraq

was getting even for 9/11?

GAFFNEY: Well, as I said, he kept saying that he

was going to try to get even against us for

Desert Storm, so it wouldnµt be unreasonable

for people to conclude maybe that thatµs what

he was doing. Thereµs also circumstantial

evidence, not proven by any means, but

nonetheless some pretty compelling

circumstantial evidence of Saddam Husseinµs

Iraq being involved with the people who

perpetrated both the 1993 attack on the World

Trade Center and even the Oklahoma City

bombing.

So the American people, I think, are not

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stupid. I think that they were looking at a

threat environment in which a guy like Saddam

Hussein, who was repeatedly talking about

exacting revenge against the United States, w

ho was trying to shoot down our aircraft,

who was actively supporting terrorism around

the world, was a guy that you donµt want to

have an opportunity to act on his threats. That

may be what they were concluding.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, before we hear from

David Corn, letµs show right now the

compilation we have of clips by²comments

made on the record, on the air by President

Bush and by Vice President Dick Cheney about

Iraq and its role in 9/11. Letµs take a look at

them, beginning with Vice President Dick

Cheney on ³Meet the Press´ talking a meeting

he described between 9/11 hijacker

Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence agent

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in Prague, a meeting which the 9/11

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commission said never took place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE

UNITED STATES: Itµs been pretty well

confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did

meet with a senior official of the Iraqi

intelligence service in Czechoslovakia.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE

UNITED STATES: Heµs a threat because he is

dealing with al Qaeda.

Evidence from intelligence sources, secret

communications and statements by people

now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein

aids and protects terrorists, including

members of al Qaeda.

Used to be that we could think that you could

contain a person like Saddam Hussein, that

oceans would protect us from his type of

terror. September the 11th should say to the

American people that weµre now a battlefield.

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The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on

terror that began on September the 11th,

2001.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: David Corn, how did the American

people get the overwhelming belief that

Saddam Hussein had attacked us on 9/11, that h

e was involved very directly and personally²

personally²in the attack on us on 9/11, and

therefore, the war in Iraq was retribution?

DAVID CORN, ³MOTHER JONES´: Well, they

listened to statements like those. Dick Cheney

said ³pretty well confirmed´ the report that

Mohammed Atta, the 9/11 ringleader, had met

with Iraqi intelligence, an officer, in Prague.

And at the time he made²we know²you cited

the 9/11 commission to say that never

happened, and that study came out years later.

At the time that he made those statements, the

CIA and the FBI had already debunked those

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reports, or at least cast tremendous amount of

skepticism on it. Rather than being pretty well

confirmed, they were dubious, at best.

MATTHEWS: You mean even by December of

µ01.

CORN: Yes. And he kept saying it up to and

even after the invasion. He repeated that at

least a half dozen times, if not more so, while

his own intelligence community was saying,

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This is not true.

And whatµs also doubly specious about this is

even if Mohammed Atta

had met with any one officer of the Iraqi

intelligence service, what would

it mean? Maybe absolutely nothing. Maybe the

Iraqis wanted to keep dibs -

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showed over and over again that people

believed that the actual people in the airplanes

that attacked us in those suicide raids on 9/11

were Iraqis. How did they get that idea? I

would contend that the record here suggests

that their leaders told them so. You disagree.

GAFFNEY: Well...

MATTHEWS: You disagree, right?

GAFFNEY: Yes, I do disagree. And certainly,

none of the clips that you just broadcast said

that. And on this question about who

Mohammed Atta met in Prague and who he

didnµt meet with²look, I mean, I find it

charming that David Corn would say maybe

they were just getting together to keep tabs on

one another, if they got together. And there

were intelligence reports. Ultimately the CIA

and DIA I think concluded that they were not

persuasive, but there were intelligence

reports...

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(CROSSTALK)

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CORN: At the time that Cheney said that...

GAFFNEY: ... ultimately, David, there were²

there were...

CORN: At the time that Cheney said that...

GAFFNEY: ... judgments made...

CORN: ... they were not pretty well confirmed.

They were not confirmed when he said they

were.

GAFFNEY: May I finish?

CORN: Thatµs a lie to the American public,

Frank.


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CORN: Is it not?


CORN: Yes.

GAFFNEY: At the time, there were reports that

were confirming it, there were reports that

were disputing it. I think Dick Cheney...

CORN: Thatµs not true!

GAFFNEY: ... was reflecting²absolutely true.

CORN: No!

GAFFNEY: The point²you said so yourself.

The point is that when you look, Chris, at what

Dick Cheney, what George Bush, what Don

Rumsfeld, what all of the other people²who

you are still kicking around, to my

astonishment²were saying at the time was,

We are in a dangerous world. We are indeed a

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battlefield. The idea they canµt hit us here is no

longer true, that people wish to hurt us here is

now beyond doubt. And the question was, was

Saddam Hussein one of those people? I believe

he was. Iµm delighted that he is no longer in

business, and I think the evidence that Iµve

just suggested...

(CROSSTALK)

GAFFNEY: ...American people...

MATTHEWS: OK...

GAFFNEY: ... should be glad that heµs not in

business any longer.

MATTHEWS: Well, letµs just quote the 9/11

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commission. ³We have no credible evidence

that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks

against the United States.´ Frank, do you at

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this moment in time, in March of 2009, do you

challenge that?

GAFFNEY: I do. I believe that there is evidence

that they were collaborating on all kinds of

things. Whether we can prove beyond a

reasonable doubt or to the satisfaction of that

partisan²or bipartisan, as you wish²

commission, I believe is an open question.

CORN: You know...

GAFFNEY: But hereµs the point. Just hear me

out.

CORN: No, no.

GAFFNEY: Please David...

CORN: Facts are the point.

GAFFNEY: Chris, just hear me out, please.

CORN: Facts are the point, not just what you

believe.

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GAFFNEY: Just hear me out. My point is...

CORN: Give us the facts.

GAFFNEY: Iµll defer to you in a moment. The

point is that we donµt have omniscience about

the world, most especially about secret

terrorist organizations and police states. We

have a lot of evidence that these guys were

meeting, they were organizing something.

They were sharing technology. They were

sharing intelligence.

CORN: No.But there you go again, Frank.

GAFFNEY: We have lots of evidence of that.

CORN: No, no, no! We donµt!

GAFFNEY: The question, What were they doing

about it? We donµt know.

And I think...

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CORN: Frank, Frank, Frank...

GAFFNEY: ... to reach the conclusion that they

were just keeping tabs on each other is

ridiculous, David!

CORN: Frank...

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GAFFNEY: Itµs ridiculous.

CORN: Frank, how do you breathe if you never

pause?

MATTHEWS: I donµt pause because youµll jump

in and interrupt me.

Thatµs why.

CORN: We donµt have good evidence. We have

no solid evidence.

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GAFFNEY: We have ample...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask the rules of

engagement. I just want to set the rules of

engagement here. If we donµt know that 9/11

-- or Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, if we

donµt know that, and you say itµs an open case,

and we never were able to prove that he had

nuclear weapons, do you go to war against

another country with the loss of lives and

treasure, of thousands of American lives and

unlimited number of Iraqis dead²do you do

something like that, do you go to war with

another country when you donµt have your

case made? You admit itµs an open case.

GAFFNEY: But thatµs...

MATTHEWS: I want to know the rules of

engagement here. When you do you go to war,

Frank?

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GAFFNEY: Well, in this case, I said to you, in

the immediate aftermath of 3,000 Americans

being slaughtered by people, some of whom

had, in fact, collaborative relationships with

Iraqi intelligence.

CORN: There we go again. Who?

GAFFNEY: You take²you take...

CORN: Who? Who had a collaborative...

GAFFNEY: You take preemptive action...

CORN: Frank, stop right there and tell me...

GAFFNEY: ... to prevent the kinds of attacks...

CORN: ... who had a relationship!

GAFFNEY: ... the kinds of attacks that we now

know Saddam Hussein clearly had in mind

with chemical and biological agents.

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CORN: Thatµs the problem!

MATTHEWS: Why didnµt this evidence reach the

bipartisan Iraqi²why didnµt the committee...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why didnµt the committee²why

didnµt the 9/11 commission have this

information, if it exists?

GAFFNEY: I believe they may have had access

to it and they went with the judgment of the

intelligence community that it wasnµt clear-cut.

It wasnµt dispositive. But itµs not the same

thing as...

CORN: So this is²this is...

GAFFNEY: ... that thereµs no evidence. Thatµs

simply not true.

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CORN: This is the neo-conservative

conspiracy theory!

GAFFNEY: Itµs not the neo-conservative

conspiracy theory!

CORN: The intelligence community...

(CROSSTALK)

GAFFNEY: Itµs been published in books. Itµs

been published in magazines. take a look at

them.

CORN: Yes, Laurie Mylroie wrote a book thatµs

been widely debunked and derided. Mike

Isikoff and I took it apart in our own book.

Yes, there are books out there, books out

there saying a lot of things, Frank. Doesnµt

make it so.

GAFFNEY: Look at Douglas Feithµs book...

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CORN: When Dick Cheney...

GAFFNEY: ... which documents end to end...

CORN: Oh, Douglas Feith is another fellow...

GAFFNEY: ... what the president had...

CORN: ... with a great track record on this.

GAFFNEY: Well, he happens to have been there

in the midst of it and had the documents that

youµre disputing.

CORN: Yes. He was there. He was in the middle

of this...

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(CROSSTALK)

CORN: Listen, you say that itµs...

(CROSSTALK)

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GAFFNEY: He was working with the evidence

that was available.

CORN: Letµs go back to what the president said

days before he invaded Iraq. He said the

intelligence on weapons of mass destruction

was beyond doubt. He didnµt say, We donµt

know, maybe yes, maybe no, we canµt take a

chance. He said it was beyond doubt.

GAFFNEY: It was.

CORN: Thatµs not even what youµre saying

now.

GAFFNEY: It was, David.

CORN: So is that not misleading to the

American public...

GAFFNEY: It was beyond doubt.

CORN: ... to say that we have intelligence that

is rock solid?

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GAFFNEY: It was beyond doubt at the time, and

that was the view of all your Democratic

friends, and by the way...

CORN: No.Half the Democrats...

GAFFNEY: ... intelligence services all over the

world.

CORN: ... in the House voted against it. Half the

Democrats in the House...

(CROSSTALK)

GAFFNEY: ... including the most prominent

Democrats voted for it on the basis of exactly

the same intelligence, starting with Hillary

Clinton...

CORN: So now youµre going to...

GAFFNEY: ... starting with Joe Biden, starting

with John Kerry.

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CORN: Youµre going to justify your actions...

GAFFNEY: No!

CORN: ... by Democratic mistakes being in line

with your mistakes?

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GAFFNEY: No, no.What Iµm saying...

CORN: This was not...

GAFFNEY: ... is when you say this was...

CORN: There were people inside the

intelligence...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, I have to draw...

GAFFNEY: ... when you say this was wrong,

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thatµs not true. It was²it was...

MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask you this...

GAFFNEY: ... beyond a doubt to the minds of

Democrats as well as Republicans at the time.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me ask...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Can I ask you both²I have to

separate you for a second and ask you this

question about what we learned. What did we

learn in the case for war as it was made? Did

we learn that it was made fairly and

appropriately and we went to war for good

cause and we made no mistakes, or did we

learn that we rushed to war based upon a false

apprehension on the part of the American

people who believed there was some

connection, as they did in the polling, between

Iraq and 9/11, and a mistake, if you will, or a

reckless case that there was nuclear weapons

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in the hands or about to be in the hands of

Saddam Hussein and that was a justification

for war?

Did we learn anything, or Frank, were we right

to go to war and we did it right? Because I

want the know what weµve learned from this. It

µs in the past. We canµt change it. What did we

learn, Frank?

GAFFNEY: I think we did the right thing, and I

think what we have unfortunately taken away

from this experience is that weµre going to let

everybody get their hands on these weapons

of mass destruction, most immediately Iran,

and then deal with it after they start probably

using it. I think thatµs a terrible lesson and the

wrong one to have learned.

MATTHEWS: David, what did we learn?

CORN: The lesson is not to take at face value

over-the-top, hyperbolic claims about what

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written here, and I want to see more history

written on this. I donµt think Doug Feithµs the

last word on this, nor are we.

GAFFNEY: But itµs an important word.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, David Corn. Thank

you²well, unfortunately, people like him had

their way. Thank you, Frank Gaffney.

GAFFNEY: Thank God.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, David Corn.

Coming up: One of the funniest men alive, a

giant of American life, the great Bill Cosbyµs

coming to this table, as I promised you. Weµre

going to talk about President Obama and the

promise he made to change America and

whether he can do it.

Youµre watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

With a career spanning five decades, Bill Cosby

an American icon. Iµm honored to welcome

him here to HARDBALL, along with Dr. Alvin

Poussaint, professor of psychiatry at Bostonµs

Judge Baker Childrenµs Center and the

Harvard Medical School.

Theyµre author²authors, both, of the ³New

York Times´ bestseller, ³Come On, People: On

the Path from Victims to Victors.´

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Gentlemen, Mr. Cosby, Dr. Poussaint.

BILL COSBY, CO-AUTHOR, ³COME ON, PEOPLE:

ON THE PATH FROM VICTIMS TO

VICTORS´: Hometown.

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MATTHEWS: Philly guy.

COSBY: Hometown Chris.

MATTHEWS: North Philly, the toughest

neighborhood in the city.

COSBY: La Salle High School.

MATTHEWS: Central High, where you had to

have an I.Q. very high to go there.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: And you went nowhere.

DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT, CO-AUTHOR, ³COME

ON, PEOPLE: ON THE PATH FROM

VICTIMS TO VICTORS´: Thatµs right. I...

COSBY: Fast.

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COSBY: ³You²youµre telling us. Dad, we want

to get out of here.´

Then I took them down to Mary Channing

Wister, my elementary school, to tell them

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about the beautiful and wonderful Mary B.

Forchic.And the school, it is all crumbly...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: ... and just gone.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: Youµre not old enough yet to have that

happen to your life.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: La Salle will always be there.

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MATTHEWS: Yes, but the 15th at Hunting Park,

I know that neighborhood, too, where I grew

up.

Let me ask you this about that neighborhood,

the tough inner city. Every major city has got a

poor area, neighborhood, usually black,

sometimes blighted by crime, and certainly

poverty.

And we have got this recession.

COSBY: Right.

MATTHEWS: And we have an African-American

president.

What is it like, do you think, growing up a 15-

year-old right now, like that, as opposed to

when you grew up? Is it different with a black

president?

COSBY: You want me?

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and being a good parent, that maybe some of

them, in fact, might achieve more.

But I think itµs going to be difficult with all the

other hardships.

Already, the crime rate is going up...

MATTHEWS: Because of the recession.

POUSSAINT: ... in these communities, because

of the recession.

MATTHEWS: But, Bill, I was there that morning

in October. You know that old neighborhood, P

rogress Plaza, North Philly, up above

Temple...

COSBY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... tough neighborhood, hasnµt

changed much. In fact, it is worse than it was

40 years ago.

These people, 15,000 people, get up at 9:00

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Saturday morning, mostly African-American,

but a mixed crowd. When President Obama,

the candidate, said, Iµm going to build a

country where people, the leaders, unite us,

they donµt divide us²nobody said bigger piece

of the pie, a better deal, more welfare, jobs.

COSBY: Right.

MATTHEWS: He just said, unite us, not divide

us.

Those people were crying with hope.

Can he deliver, he deliver?

COSBY: Itµs²he²but itµs not his delivery. That

µs not his delivery. It is our delivery. Itµs²itµs

the²that rising up, the phoenix. It is²it really

is on all of us.

Let me²let me give you an example. A young²

young man said yesterday at Teachers

College²thereµs a young fellow, John Bartrum

(ph), high school. So, the kid says: My mother

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has two jobs. My father has two jobs. And the

cops came in to my house and turned it

upside-down looking for a gun. What the

³blankety blank´ am I supposed to do?

And, so, I looked at the teacher. And I said,

OK, what was your answer? And he said, well,

I was²the kid is just saying how things are

against him.

I said, but what did you say to him? And the

fellow said, well, it really wasnµt²he really didn

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µt say it to me. He said it to my friend.

I said, but you didnµt say that.

When our children confront us, and²and²

and theyµre angry, and they sound angry, they

µre really asking a question, point blank. Our

children are trying to tell us something. And

we are not listening. We have got to listen to

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A kid today, at 15, every kid, black kid, white

kid, whatever background, knows that we

have Barack Obama as our president. Every

kid knows it...

POUSSAINT: Right.

MATTHEWS: ... because of this TV, medium,

and everything else.

POUSSAINT: Right.

MATTHEWS: They know.

POUSSAINT: Right.

MATTHEWS: Does that change their sense of

victimhood, to, I can win?

POUSSAINT: I think it does a little bit, sure,

because he²he won. If Obama thought of

himself and wallowed in being a victim, as a

black man...

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MATTHEWS: He never does it.

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POUSSAINT: I know. And he would never be

president of the United States if he did that. He

never would have run for the nomination and

then for the presidency if he saw himself as a

victim.

MATTHEWS: In fact, he leans over backwards

not to be antagonistic...

POUSSAINT: Right.So...

MATTHEWS: ... because he doesnµt be a²

quote²³angry black man.´

POUSSAINT: Right.

MATTHEWS: He is always careful about that.

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MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: And, then, if it isnµt in the home, if a

kid walks up to²if a black kid walks to

another black kid whoµs studying and says,

youµre acting white...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: ... if that kid does²is²does not have

his or her ancestral intelligence education in

her, and family, she is going to...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, Doctor, I²I keep thinking

about this.

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POUSSAINT: Yes. Yes.

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MATTHEWS: I keep thinking about a kid in

grade school. They take them to Independence

Hall. They show them where all these white

guys, 200 years ago, 250 years ago, built a

country based on democracy, human rights,

the Bill of Rights, good stuff.

But it never meant anything to those black

kids, because they were all white guys. Now,

do they have in their heads the seed of an idea,

only that kind of a government could lead to a

guy named Barack Obama being head of a

Western country, like is happening right now?

Do they see the connection of that history?

POUSSAINT: Well, I donµt know if they see the

connection of that white history...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Thatµs what Iµm asking.

POUSSAINT: ... with Obama, necessarily. But

they see the history probably more of the civil

rights movement...

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MATTHEWS: Yes.

POUSSAINT: ... and the struggle for freedom²

in the United States, connected with Martin

Luther King and all the other civil rights

leaders.

MATTHEWS: So, they connect King with

Obama?

POUSSAINT: With²oh, absolutely.

COSBY: But even before...

POUSSAINT: And they did during the last

holiday season, you know, Martin Luther King

µs birthday and the inauguration.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Before then, before Dr. King, there

were Africans who were freed from their

slavery...

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COSBY: And, so, Tulsa, for a long time, was the

only American place in the United States of

America...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I grew up with a lot of those

African-American leaders, Judge Raymond

Pace Alexander, Judge Hastie, Bill Gray. They

came from those families that gotten ahead

and had established that hope.

We will be right back with Bill Cosby and Dr.

Alvin Poussaint to talk about the age of

Obama.And, also, I want to talk about Michelle

Obama. She doesnµt get enough attention. And

she ought to.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Weµre back with much more of the

great Bill Cosby, who is right in the studio,

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right here.

We will be right back with²and, also, weµre

going to have the Republican Partyµs problems

with Michael Steele. Boy, he has found a

problem. He says heµs for individual choice

with abortion, not exactly the party line.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JULIA BOORSTIN, CNBC CORRESPONDENT: Iµm

Julia Boorstin with your CNBC ³Market Wrap.´

Stocks rallying, rising for a third straight

session. The Dow Jones industrials surged

239 points, climbing back above 7000, the S&P

500 up 29, and the Nasdaq up 54.

Bernard Madoff pleaded guilty to engineering

perhaps the biggest swindle in Wall Street

history. Prosecutors now put it at nearly $65

billion. The judge immediately revoked Madoff

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µs bail. And he was led off to jail in handcuffs.

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He will remain there until heµs sentenced June

16. The 70-year-old Madoff could get up to

150 years in prison.

Meantime, the number of newly laid-off

workers filing first-time jobless claims rose

last week to 654,000. The number of people

continuing to receive unemployment benefits

also rose to a new record of 5.3 million.

And General Motors says it wonµt need a $2

billion government loan installment it had

requested for March.

That itµs from CNBC, first in business word

wide²back to HARDBALL.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, ³THE COSBY SHOW´)

COSBY: How do you expect to get into college

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with grades like this?

MALCOLM-JAMAL WARNER, ACTOR: No

problem.

COSBY: Huh?

WARNER: See, Iµm not going to college.

COSBY: Damn right.

(LAUGHTER)

WARNER: I am going to get through high

school, and then get a job, like regular people.

COSBY: Regular people?

(LAUGHTER)

WARNER: Yes, you know, who work in the gas

station, drive a bus, something like that.

(LAUGHTER)

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COSBY: So, what youµre saying is, your²your

mother and I shouldnµt care if you get Dµs,

because you donµt need good grades to be

regular people?

(LAUGHTER)

WARNER: Right.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was, of course, Bill Cosby.

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And we have got Dr. Alvin Poussaint of

Harvard up here.

Their book is called ³Come On, People.´

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I have got to ask you about something that

you must have an attitude about, a point of

view on, Michelle Obama.

You first, Doctor.

POUSSAINT: Michelle Obama, I think she is a

wonderful role model.

She comes across in a wonderful way as a

mother.

MATTHEWS: How?

POUSSAINT: How? By the way she treats²

treats her daughters, the fact that she wants

them to grow up as²as normal as possible.

They have chores at home. She wants them to

have good²good values.

She supports women. She wants her husband

to spend time with the children.

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She spends time with the children.

Right now, I wouldnµt call her a stay-at-home

mother, but she gave up her career, because

sheµs doing so much as a first lady. But itµs

clear that both of them care about their

children.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

POUSSAINT: And they nurture them. They love

them. And they support all the right things,

including turning off the TV set, reading to

your children, spending time with them.

]

I think all that is wonderful, and a wonderful

thing to model for the rest of the nation.

MATTHEWS: Bill, when you look at her, I was

stunned, because, when she hit the national

stage, people thought, attitude, militant. She is

going to stay something.

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COSBY: Why²why not? She should say

something. She should say a lot of things.

I enjoyed what she said. Somebody asked her

about being black, and I think she had²I will

just paraphrase it. She said something about: I

worry about my husband leaving the house

every day.

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>

And there was a big ³ooh.´ And I think that

people who donµt understand donµt want to

understand. I think that people should²

should know that there²there are things

against African-American people, still. There

are things that ought to be fixed that are not

fixed.

There are²and²and some of the problems

also exist of the black people not taking care

of the jobs theyµre supposed to be doing with

and about other black people.

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So, I think that, when she speaks, she should

be allowed to speak, because this is a

wonderful time for us to begin to be very, very

frank and truthful about the situation, that the

president of the United States is a product of a

white mother and a black father. Go to the

µ60s. That was called miscegenation, and you

go to jail. And through that, so many people, I

µm sure, who have a white and a black parent,

an Asian and a black parent, those people feel

much better about themselves without being

looked at as some kind of, well, we donµt want

to talk about it and they automatically put

these people in the black race. Say, well, so the

white man makes love to a black woman. She

gets pregnant. Automatically, the child is

black.

MATTHEWS: Thatµs the American way.

COSBY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: It doesnµt work that way in other

countries. Thatµs the American rule. South

Africa, thereµs another category. You donµt get

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thrown into one race that way.

COSBY: They have coloreds.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: But, still, they treat you according to

your card. Or they used to. Used to, used to.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about something

really hot in your book. This is very tricky. You

talk in the book about immigrants. And in

Washington and in the big cities of America,

we come²Iµm lucky enough to come in

contact with a lot of guys my age or younger,

African guys, Ethiopia, Eritrea, West African,

Caribbean. Theyµre doing great. Theyµre very

gung ho. Theyµre very positive.Theyµre upbeat.

They donµt seem to have that burden that you

guys write about in the African American

community.

POUSSAINT: Some of them are doing great. But

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>

I think an immigrant is a special person,

whether theyµre coming from Europe of theyµre

coming from the Caribbean. Just think of what

it takes to come to another country as an

immigrant and you have to survive and you

have to succeed.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

POUSSAINT: Youµre going to be very, very

motivated to fit in and to do well, and to be a

success.

MATTHEWS: Your tougher in the book, doctor.

You say this, ³black immigrants are walking

through those doors that the people fought

for civil rights, while too many of us are

hanging out on the street corner.´ Thatµs

pretty tough language.

POUSSAINT: Well, we think that programs like

affirmative action, opening all those doors

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because of the civil rights movement, did help

immigrants, particularly the black immigrants

from the Caribbean.

MATTHEWS: Why not the American born?

POUSSAINT: Well, they have²they have also

benefited from those programs, as well. But I

think more and more immigrants are

benefiting from those programs. If you look at

the students at the top colleges, the black

students, a high percentage of them are from

Africa, African origin.

MATTHEWS: What if²Bill, what do people feel

who are Americans, going back to the 16th

century? They have roots way back before

most white people ever came to this country.

Do they feel that they missed something here

or do these immigrants come in and seem to

be so zippy and positive? Unburdened by the

slavery tradition?

COSBY: I think, listening to your questions, I

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think that not enough people have really

bothered to look deeper into the whole

situation. For instance, if Iµm born in Africa or

a foreign country, and I come here, I donµt

come here subsidized, except through maybe

some individual. The United Statesµ

government doesnµt set up a twice a month

check. Iµve heard more limo drivers, more cab

drivers coming out of the train station²and

thatµs where youµve met your guys, I guess.

And they will tell you, man. I came here²

And they all seem to have the same amount of

money, 50 dollars. Then

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they have an address to go to where they are

living eight deep. They all

have come from some large family of sisters

and brothers, and theyµre here

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to work. I think that itµs very easy, if we donµt

give our children love,

love from the neighborhood, love from the

church, love from the school,

love from the house²I think that these

things²where thereµs trouble -

the book, I really want to stress that this book

also if you will agree or not²the book also

tells people how to get out of being a victim.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COSBY: By giving them examples of people

who thought certain ways. And if one could, in

fact, think of him or herself in a way and get

rid of, if they can, the depression²if one could

go to the library before they all shut down and

just read about oneµs ancestors, because they

are there, one would feel so very, very proud.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Bill Cosby.

Itµs great to have you on.

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COSBY: Chris, you didnµt want me to bring you

an hoagie?

MATTHEWS: Cheese steak would be fine.

Thank you Bill Cosby, from Philly and

everywhere else. Thank you, sir. Itµs an honor

Dr. Poussaint. Thank you. Youµre book is

called ³Come On People, On The Path From

Victims to Victors.´ You got a taste of it. Hereµs

the book.

Up next, more trouble for Republican Party

Chairman Michael Steele. His comments on

abortion rights land him in some hot water

with people who donµt believe them. Thatµs his

party. Can he survive? This is HARDBALL, only

on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Weµre back. Time now for the

politics fix. Joining us is MSNBC political

analyst Richard Wolffe, and, of course, the ³

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Washington Post´ columnist Eugene

Robinson, who is also an MSNBC political

analyst. I have to ask you about this

interesting little tiff we had here last night,

involving myself, but primarily Ari Fleischer.

He can make news. I canµt.

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Ari Fleischer, Gene, said last night that we had

to go to war attack with Iraq basically because

they wanted to make sure they didnµt attack us

again. Letµs take a look at his words. This is

how he said it. He corrected it later this

afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, FMR. WHITE HOUSE PRESS

SECRETARY: I believe that still today. Of course

you and I disagree with that. But after

September 11th, having been hit once, how

could we take a chance that Saddam might not

strike again? Thatµs the threat that has been

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heµs just trying to sell the old line that Saddam

attacked us so we had to attack him.

MATTHEWS: -- dog trained to talk like this.

ROBINSON: Actually, what Iµm suggesting is

they were traumatized, that they were

politically traumatized by 9/11. And Iµve

talked to people who were there, who talk

about the guilt they felt, and the fear they felt

and the sense of being personally under

attack. Was there something we could have

done? I do think that worked on them.

MATTHEWS: So the thing they could have done

was attack Iraq?

ROBINSON: Well²

RICHARD WOLFFE, ³NEWSWEEK´: Thatµs the

thing we still donµt know.

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8/6/2019 Hardball 3_13_2009


MATTHEWS: Just like the Japanese attack on

Pearl Harbor, and we went and attacked the

Chinese.

ROBINSON: Exactly.

WOLFFE: Listen to what he said. The key

thing²and heµs going back to the original

argument. Itµs not about 9/11 and confusing

Iraq as the people who attacked us. Itµs the

way he says a threat and the threat. You know,

heµs playing around with words. Yes, Saddam

was a threat. But he wasnµt the threat.

MATTHEWS: Right.

WOLFFE: He wasnµt the threat after 9/11. It

was al Qaeda. And on the list of threats out

there, why would Saddam pop to the top?

When there was the enemy still out there? So

theyµre still playing the game.

MATTHEWS: By the way, the fight goes on,

because we had Frank Gaffney on tonight, one

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(CROSS TALK)

MATTHEWS: We could get rid of a lot of people.

Weµre America. We could get rid of Chavez. We

could get rid of Castro. We donµt go to war

with everybody we donµt like.

WOLFFE: On top of that, America would have

been safer with a more stable Iraq. The blood

and treasure, in the end, has not made

America safer. It may have been better than it

was before in terms of 2005, but was it really

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worth it? I donµt think youµll get consensus

from the foreign policy crowd saying yes.

MATTHEWS: The scary thing is²and this is

very much beyond my kin, in terms of

geopolitics of the region. One could argue,

with some authority, that the real winner of

the war in Iraq was Iran.

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ROBINSON: You could definitely argue that. I

would²

MATTHEWS: Theyµve got all the elbow room

they want now.

ROBINSON: They have much more influence in

that region.

MATTHEWS: They are it now.

ROBINSON: They are effectively that right now.

MATTHEWS: Theyµre the Shia leaders of the

world. They scare the hell out of the countries

over there, from Egypt all the way around, and t

hey have nobody in their way like Saddam.

They have nobody in the way. So you would

argue, itµs worse for Israel, itµs worse for a lot

of countries.

Weµll be right back with Eugene Robinson and

Richard Wolffe. We have to talk about Michael

Steele who made the error of thinking out loud

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as Republican national chairman. It got him in

trouble. He thought he used his words to

guide his speech, which is something he is

apparently not allowed to do. Heµs not allowed

to say what he thinks. Youµre watching

HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Weµre back with Gene Robinson

and Richard Wolffe. I have to say, this new

chair of the Republican party, Michael Steele, is

a hard man to read. He says he believes in the

individual right to choose an abortion, if thatµs

the way you want to phrase it. He then said,

apparently, according to Tony Perkins, the

head of the Family²whatever the group is²

that it doesnµt matter what he thinks. Then he

said publicly today, Iµm pro-life. What is it?

ROBINSON: I think fundamentally heµs a

moderate Republican. And those are the views

that he is expressing. But he doesnµt have a

moderate party that heµs supposed to lead. Itµs

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a very conservative party.

MATTHEWS: He represents Arlen Specter,

Susan Collins, and Olympia Snowe.

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ROBINSON: Thatµs it.

MATTHEWS: The last of the Mohicans. Thatµs

who he represents, right?

Eastern Republicans²what is he? Heµs a DC

Republican, in this area.

And he represents moderate²

(CROSS TALK)

MATTHEWS: -- which is the party which is in

deterioration.

WOLFFE: There is nothing wrong with him

trying to shift his party to a position which is

8/6/2019 Hardball 3_13_2009


more popular with independents. But you

cannot do that at 9:00 a.m. and then at 10:00

am have to backtrack.

MATTHEWS: Heµs not allowed to. Does he have

the authority to move the party?

WOLFFE: No.

MATTHEWS: Is he just a fund raiser.

WOLFFE: Heµs having trouble doing that too.

On message, on organization and on money,

he is not functional.

MATTHEWS: In the last couple weeks, we have

had a dispute around the table here about who

was the Republican party. If Rush Limbaugh is

the party, itµs basically traveling salesmen,

white guys of a certain age who have to sell

products on the road and are in their cars

between 12:00 and 3:00. Itµs a narrow group,

but an important group to our republic.

8/6/2019 Hardball 3_13_2009


If youµre Michael Steele, itµs a party of

minorities, outreach, of diversity, a big tent

party. Which is it? Whoµs running the

argument, Rush or Michael Steele?

ROBINSON: Well, you know, neither. I think the

soul of the Republican party is the c

onservative Congressional delegation

basically. I think conservatives in Congress

are the leaders of the party de facto. I think

they wish both Rush Limbaugh and Michael

Steele would shut up.

MATTHEWS: What do they want, bring back

Newt? Who is the Republican party? Palin?

WOLFFE: It doesnµt exist right now. They need

an idea. They need an idea. They need a new

purpose and a new strategy. Theyµre not

ready. Theyµre retrenching, which is what

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parties do when they get beat.

8/6/2019 Hardball 3_13_2009


MATTHEWS: Have you noticed that the people

on the hill who control the Republicans on

Capitol Hill, Mitch McConnell and John B

oehner, are like door knobs now? They donµt

even exist. What happened to these people?

Theyµre the top people in the party.

WOLFFE: If you predicted it a couple years ago,

no one would have believed it.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Eugene Robinson.

Thank you, Richard Wolffe, a flight from

power. Join us tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:0

0 Eastern for more HARDBALL. Right now itµs

time for ³1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE´ with

David Shuster.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND

MAY BE UPDATED.

END

Transcription Copyright 2009 CQ

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