(job 36345) game changers: in conversation with maha ... · maha’s wife yoga explained, that’s...

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Transcribed by OutScribe Transcription Services of 24

(Job 36345) Game Changers: In Conversation with Maha Sinnathamby

Peter Little

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name’s Peter Little. I’m deputy vice

chancellor at QUT and a member of the governing committee of the Queensland Business

Leaders Hall of Fame, and I’m very pleased to welcome you all here tonight for what is

going to be a wonderful conversation. Thank you very much for coming. To begin with,

I’d like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we’re meeting tonight

and pay respects to their ancestors who came before them, and to their elders living

today. The location of the State Library on Kurilpa Point was historically a significant

meeting, gathering and sharing place for Aboriginal people and we proudly continue that

tradition here this evening.

I’d like to acknowledge and welcome firstly our speaker, our interviewee, or our person

for taking in a conversation, Maha Sinnathamby, chair and founder of Springfield Land

Corporation; Janette Wright, CEO of the State Library of Queensland; Ray Weekes, chair

of the CEO Institute and a member of the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame

governing committee and interviewee for over 50 stories now for the Queensland

Business Leaders Hall of Fame and of course our interviewer tonight; members of the

State Library Board of Queensland; the Queensland Library Foundation, the QUT

Business School; and the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame governing

committee. It’s important for us to recognise our generous donors and partners: Crowe

Horwath, Channel 7, Morgans, NAB and the RACQ. We’re pleased that you can join us

for what is going to be an exceptional edition of the Game Changer series.

This interview series is an initiative of the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame

and it was designed to bring innovative leaders from business technology and creative

industries to share their insights. The Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame, which

was established about 8 years ago in partnership between the QUT Business School, the

State Library and the Queensland Library Foundation, set out to create a business

memory to capture the stories and the materials from our great business leaders over the

last 150-odd years and to create a business memory in the State Library of Queensland.

The Game Changer series is designed to complement that, as well as some other

initiatives.

This year at the 2015 induction dinner we inducted six iconic enterprises and innovative

entrepreneurs. They were, for those who weren’t at the dinner, and we encourage you to

come to the dinner next year, nearly 1,000 this year and we hope that you’ll help us to

break 1,000 next year.

They were Benjamin Wickham Macdonald, who was inducted in recognition of his

excellence in leadership in the Australian shipping industry. He was known as the

“Napoleon of Australian shipping”. Blue Care in recognition of its outstanding

contribution to developing aged care services throughout communities of Queensland for

over 60 years; started with one nurse and now has 11,000 employees and volunteers. It’s

an incredible story. Ellen O’Brien and Defiance Flour in recognition of Ellen’s

pioneering leadership in establishing Defiance Flour, a leading Australian brand for over

100 years.

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Sir Lawrence Wackett for establishing Australia's aircraft design and manufacturing

industries and their contribution to the defence of Australia. He oversaw the

Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, which went from no employees just before the 2nd

World War, to 10,000 employees and it built 1,700 planes for Australia’s defence. The

Courier-Mail was inducted in recognition of its distinguished contribution to reporting

Queensland affairs for close to 170 years, and Hyne Timber in regulation of the Hyne

Family’s significant contribution to the timber industry for over 130 years. It is

Australia’s leading timber company and exporter. For more information on the 50-odd

inductees, you can go anywhere at any time to the Hall of Fame website and read the

wonderful stories, the digital stories and oral histories, or you can go to level 4 in the

John Oxley Library.

But tonight as part of the Game Changer series, we’re here creating a rare platform for

innovative leaders to share their insights, their pathways to success, some of the battles

and triumphs that they experience along the way, and we’re particularly keen to know:

what are the personal characteristics that enable them to achieve great success? These

stories will not only fill you with inspiration and lessons to incorporate into your own

personal and professional endeavours, but will help to shape Queensland’s economic and

commercial development and the social fabric of our state. Tonight we are very fortunate

to hear from the visionary behind Australia’s fastest emerging new city and the founder

of Greater Springfield; this is a very very big story, not just a very big Queensland story,

but a very big story nationally and internationally. I’d now like to invite Ray Weekes to

come to the platform and introduce Maha.

[Applause]

Ray Weekes

Thanks Peter, and welcome, good evening. The Game Changers series is, as Peter

referred to, about bringing nationally and internationally recognised entrepreneurs and

innovative business leaders here to tell their stories, to share their insights with you, to

discuss how they build companies, inspire teams, and also drive remarkable growth

achievements. So tonight we’re going to hear, as Peter said, a big story. We’re going to

hear the story of Maha Sinnathamby, migrant, entrepreneur, property developer,

visionary, and one of Australia’s wealthiest businessmen.

You’ll understand tonight, I hope, with this conversation, the remarkable legacy he has

created in the development of Greater Springfield, a fully master-planned city, only the

second in Australia after Canberra. Nowhere else in the world is there a comparable

example of a master-planned city or community being created by a small privately owned

company with limited funds. When Maha first visited the Springfield site there was

nothing there, just a desolate rocky expanse, no houses, not even a green tree. And as

Maha’s wife Yoga explained, that’s the way she saw the land when she first saw it. And

there was nothing there apart from a prison to the north, a big cemetery and a psychiatric

hospital which everyone, including Yoga, thought would come in handy, considering

Maha’s clearly evident lunacy in believing he could develop this site.

[Audience laughter]

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By the way, I need to stop a vicious rumour. Before I came in, it’s spreading and I’ve

just got to stop this vicious rumour: Springfield was not named after the US city where

Homer Simpson and his family lived in the TV series The Simpsons. It’s just not true.

You’re going to hear tonight how, in bringing the vision to reality over the past 20 years,

why all levels of government including Terry Mackenroth here tonight, saw something

special in Springfield. You’ll understand in creating Greater Springfield Maha’s vision,

his sense of social justice, his persistence, his courage, energy, and his talent for building

strategic partnerships. As Bob Sharpless said, Maha’s business partner and friend, he

said that Maha recognises no obstacles to achievement. A key part of Maha’s plan is his

willingness to say yes to whatever request comes his way and work out the how later, or

as Bob said, get others to work out the how later.

[Audience laughter]

So before we get underway with the conversation tonight, let’s have a look at this

snapshot of Maha and Springfield.

[Video plays]

Ray Weekes

So please welcome a Game Changer, Maha Sinnathamby.

[Applause]

Maha Sinnathamby

Thank you, Ray.

Ray Weekes

Good to see you. Maha, let’s start with your origins, your humble origins. Can you share

with us just a little about your upbringing, share with us your personal journey, involving

being put on a boat from Singapore to Fremantle and at 17 years of age being alone in

this country and studying civil engineering. So take us back.

Maha Sinnathamby Ray, I come from a very very simple humble family. It’s a small village about 60Ks from

Kuala Lumpur. It did not have any electricity at that stage, very little running water. I

studied under a kerosene lamp, so that shows you how humble this place is. But Dad had

a commitment to educate all his eight children. Education was very important and he

drove that very hard message from day 1. So after finishing school, and I failed at

school, I’ve had many failures [Laughter], and after finishing school I took a boat, came

to Fremantle, and from Fremantle flew over to Sydney. Sydney, compared to that village

of mine, was moving at a million miles an hour and it took a while to get used to it, but

usually I adjust myself very quickly to an environment. But that’s my background.

Ray Weekes

And your father: he decided that you’d become an engineer, right?

Maha Sinnathamby

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Yes.

Ray Weekes

Did you have a burning desire to do anything else?

Maha Sinnathamby No. At that age, being 17 and having grown up in a small village, you know very little,

what was happening around the outside world, but he in his wisdom said, “You’ve got to

do civil engineering.” I said, “Okay, let’s have a go at it.” [Laughter] I take anything

on. So I came up to University of New South Wales and that’s where I started the course.

Ray Weekes

So, we’re going to come back to this: what really drives you and what made you want to

build a city? But you said, in reading your book, which by the way, this is Stop Not Till

the Goal is Reached and it’s an outstanding read, understand the principles of your

success and also the great story. But you say, “A sculptor looks at a rock and sees the

face within.” Can you explain how you saw a city in a 7,000 acre forest where no-one

else could? Why were you so certain it was the right thing to do?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, Ray, just by way of background, this 7,600 acres came to the market; you don’t get

a large landmass like this anywhere in the country outside Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne or

Sydney. And when you get a large landmass like this you’ve got to take it to the highest

possible use, and the challenge was: how do you bring this about? And as I might have

said that in the book, no-one wanted to buy this land. It had all sorts of problems. It was

in an area that was high rate of unemployment, high crime rate and low level of

education.

The state prison, as you said, was next-door to it, and it needed a highway of over

$200 million, a Centenary Highway and they said, “Who would want to be in it?” There

was no planning in it. Now, knowing the background, I say this all the time, those of us

who are not sculptors, we look at a rock and we see a rock, but a sculptor looks at a rock

and he or she sees a beautiful face in it. That face is already in the rock. And the sculptor

takes out a number of tools and brings that face out. So in our case, I saw this land, to me

it was calling out and saying, “Bring me out. You’re the only one who can bring me out.

I’m a city. Bring me out.” [Laughter] That was a challenge. The challenge was huge.

No-one believed in it. I’ve got my friend Terry Mackenroth here, he was the Minister for

Planning.

Ray Weekes

He didn’t believe in it, did he?

Maha Sinnathamby [Laughter] Terry went and had a look at the land with his driver and he had a bit of

difficulty finding the land, and he ...

[Audience laughter]

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Or his driver did. And then came back to his office and he said, “Who would live here?”

And that was a challenge. No-one believed in this. So all I would like to say to the

audience is: you will have opportunities. There is a face inside that rock, there is an

opportunity beyond what you have seen; just look for it.

Ray Weekes

And when you shared for vision for Springfield at the time, at the beginning, most said

you were mad. Right, you were mad? They said, “In anyone’s terms, it was a massive

leap of faith.”

Maha Sinnathamby Yes.

Ray Weekes

So you were a lone voice in this, so what does it say about you? What does it say about

your inner strength, your capacity to envision outcomes? What does it tell us about Maha

Sinnathamby, really?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, Ray, it’s good that you say that, because even my wife didn’t believe it. She’s

here. She thought I was mad [Laughter] But I say this: there is something in human

nature that if you believe that it is right and it is legal, you pursue it relentlessly. Have

faith in yourself. Have faith in yourself and you pursue it relentlessly, and there’s

something in human nature that if you keep on persisting you will wear the other side off,

because you’re not going to be worn out; they will wear off and you will win. But it has

to be like legal.

Ray Weekes

Of course.

[Audience laughter]

So in your book, Stop Not Till the Goal is Reached, you state these 10 principles that

inspired you to build Australia’s largest privately owned master-planned city. And one of

the principles is, following on from what you just said, “All power is within you.” So tell

us what you mean by that?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, that’s fundamentally saying have faith in yourself. Have a strong strong sense of

self-belief. History shows that all the people who have become great in life, they had that

strong sense of self-belief, born with the consciousness that they were going to be great;

they became great. But in them, it’s in them, that strong sense of self-belief, that strong

sense of faith.

Ray Weekes

But another principle for you is, “Make one idea your life.” You’ve had one central

purpose and a burning desire to possess it. Now, how important has this been to your

success?

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Maha Sinnathamby I think at the end of the day that is absolutely fundamental that you have to believe in

something and you have to keep at it day and night. I had the responsibility because

when this project went to parliament, and Mr Mackenroth is here to support me here, if

you think so, when it went to parliament, we have 89 parliamentarians. All the 89 hands

went up. Can you imagine that? All the 89 hands: government, independents and the

opportunity. And for the first time, our parliament gave approval to a city and gave birth

to a new city other than Canberra. Now, this put a load on me, this put a lot of

responsibility that the parliament has approved it, we have to do it right. And that was a

challenge. So there was an extra burden placed on me [0:20:13.7]

Ray Weekes

Of course. And I just want to ask about Gandhi: Mahatma Gandhi was your greatest

inspiration. Just tell us the influence his thinking and actions had on you, because Gandhi

for you, I think, was a constant reminder that you can achieve anything if you go about it

in the right way, with courage, with dignity, and with fearlessness. What was Gandhi to

you?

Maha Sinnathamby Gandhi was an absolute inspiration and has been an inspiration ever since I was about

12 years old. I came across his book at the age of 22 and I said to myself, “I’ve got to

read this. This is a man who did not have any money”, because we didn’t have money

when we bought Springfield. He did not have any money. He did not have an army.

And he had no family connections. And he took the British Empire on. And those of you

who know history very well, and all of you would know it, it was said the sun never sets

on the British Empire. No money, no army, take the Empire on. The Empire, due to his

belief of passive disobedience and non-violence, handed to him their prized jewel. That

changed the course of human history. Now, if that’s not an example to follow, Ray, I

don’t know what it is, and that has been a constant reminder: just keep going. Don’t

need any money, you don’t need any army, just keep going. [Laughter]

Ray Weekes

So you describe, [0:22:01.3] describe the values that you do hold sacred, because I just

need to understand those values more. Because I just need to understand also the

importance of your thinking, coming from the Vedanta movement, and how that

underpins your values.

Maha Sinnathamby Well, Vedanta is a teaching of over 4,000 years old. It’s an ancient teaching and it says:

you are the creator of your destiny; you are the master of your life; go and do whatever it

is. And is says further, Vedanta is much deeper than all this, but it says you have all the

powers of the universe within you. And it also says that a human being only uses an

infinitesimal of what they can do, and it says: all knowledge is inside you, just keep

finding who you truly are. It’s much more deeper, but I’m just summarising that in a few

words. But that gives you a tremendous amount of strength. You are the creator or your

destiny, Ray. What else? Don’t blame anybody else.

Ray Weekes

Does it require you at times to construct a reality that others can’t see?

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Maha Sinnathamby I can give them a bit of coaching on that, I’m very happy to do that.

[Audience laughter]

I’ll probably learn a bit from them.

Ray Weekes

You’re clearly a risk-taker. For everyone here, just describe your appetite for risk.

Maha Sinnathamby Well, I don’t take risk. I don’t believe in risk. I don’t believe in anything negative. I

have a plan; I have a vision; I have a strong strong sense of self-belief; and strong faith in

myself. And I go about with a vision, I have it mapped out and I pursue it. Along the

journey you will come across a lot of problems: unplanned, unforeseen, GFC comes up,

political climate changes, you start dealing with a government and then all of a sudden

the government changes. Uncertainty comes in all forms. But then you have these

uncertainties and you say to yourself, “These uncertainties are bound to come and I’m

going to overcome that.” And you don’t know what these uncertainties are, but have the

faith that you will overcome this.

Ray Weekes

But your mantra seems to be: stay upbeat and positive and expect the best from others.

And you don’t abide by any negatives, do you? Because the way I see it, in reading your

book, you maintained this determined optimism. You don’t take “No” for an answer.

You just refuse to think negatively. So am I right in all this?

Maha Sinnathamby Absolutely. Absolutely. I love all that you’re saying. I know what you’re saying.

[Audience laughter]

Just keep saying it.

Ray Weekes

But take us a bit further. How do you maintain this upbeat, positive, I understand the

base of thinking here with Vedanta and so on, but take us through, this optimism has been

a force multiplier for you, hasn’t it?

Maha Sinnathamby Yes, very much so. Ray, I say this, “I don’t like to think negative of any kind.” If it

comes, I just try and erase it, it’s off. If I see anybody or hear anybody say negative, I

just avoid them or I change the subject. I don’t want to pollute my mind with negative

things. I’m on a journey and I want my mind to be pure, clean. And as soon as I

introduce anything negative, I getting mixed up with anybody negative, it comes and

affects my mind. So I try and avoid that. I try and change the subject, whatever it is. I

also say that in your path to success, you will have, as you know, you will have failures,

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but you try and overcome with positive thoughts. And I’ll say this, Ray, I didn’t want

really you to bring this, but I’ll tell you this, I’m quite happy to admit this: at university I

failed my first year. I repeated it.

Ray Weekes

You had to repeat every subject, right?

Maha Sinnathamby Those days we had eight subjects first year. If you failed one, you repeat the whole lot.

That’s University of New South Wales.

[Audience laughter]

I repeated it. Then the next year I passed first year, then I went to second year. I failed

again. I was really upset; not for me, but for my Dad. They were struggling, struggling

to pay my fees. I wrote to Dad and I said, “Dad, I’m sorry I let you down.” Dad replied,

I thought he was going to get upset, but he said, “Son, just keep going. The darkest night

brings the brightest dawn.” I read the letter and I just cried and cried and cried,

[0:27:35.3] fail after it. I never failed. But I say this, now that you have asked the

question, I say this: we all will have dark nights, friends. We all have dark nights. We’ll

have a health problem, we’ll have a financial problem, we’ll have a personal problem. It

can come in any form. You will have dark nights. But when you have dark nights, say to

yourself, “Forget about the dark night; tomorrow will be a better day.” Just think of

tomorrow, forget the dark night [Laughter] and you won’t have any dark nights.

Ray Weekes

That’s great advice. Explain the principle, just following on from that, that was so

prevalent in your life, which is, “Character is established through 1,000 stumbles.”

Explain “failure” to you and how you maintained that inner strength, that character.

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. Well, those of you who know, and the book is all there, it tells the truth. The writer

said to me, “Tell everything” and there’s a few bad words and everything ...

[Audience laughter]

She said, “I will not write unless you tell”, so it’s all there. But when you have failures,

failures are the best teachers. We will not avoid failures. We’ll all have failures. But it

is the failures that you learn from. You learn from your mistakes. You have failed, again

I didn’t want to say this, but I failed. I was a very wealthy man in Perth; I had

$30 million and I lost it. I had nothing. I had only a wife and four kids after that

[Laughter] nothing.

[Audience laughter]

Ray Weekes

Do you want to comment on that?

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Maha Sinnathamby [Laughter] you just say to yourself, “Well, what do I do? I just have to keep going.” And

you pick up your bags and you keep going. What you fail, you fail, but you learn out of

that. It’s the failures that makes you a better person. And I also say this: you know how

a pearl is created; a pearl comes to the irritation that the sand gives to the oyster. The

more irritation it has, the better the pearl is. So it’s again, it’s all the failures that makes

you a better person. Failures is something that you learn from. You become stronger and

stronger and stronger.

Ray Weekes

We’ve got a number of entrepreneurs in this audience and I think they’d love to hear

from you your thoughts on entrepreneurship. What do you think distinguishes successful

entrepreneurs?

Maha Sinnathamby A successful entrepreneur must have a vision. He has to say, “Well, I want to be the best

bread maker” or whatever it is, or “I want to be the best car maker” or whatever it is, but

they have to have a vision. They have to say, “This is my goal. This is what I want to

do.” And I’m not teaching any entrepreneurs; they are much better than me. But having

thought of a vision, having thought of a plan, pursue it day and night. Don’t get

distracted. Are you going to have problems? Yes, you will have. You will have

problems.

You will have many many hurdles. We have had hurdles after hurdles. Mr Mackenroth

will tell you about the hurdles that we have had to have brought Springfield to where it is.

We had changes of government, we had changes of bureaucrats, we had all sorts of

issues. There was no money with government. As soon as you see them, they say,

“There’s no money.” [Laughter] We had all sorts of issues but you have to just pursue it.

And it’s that resilience and that strength of character that you have to have. And you’ll

end up having a bit of a thick skin at the end. You don’t accept “No” for an answer, and I

say this: when you believe in something that is right and legal, just pursue it; don’t

accept “No” for an answer. That would demean yourself as a human being. Don’t

demean yourself.

Ray Weekes

And you have this great knack for surrounding yourself with innovative and driven

entrepreneurs to form partnerships with, such as your partner on Greater Springfield, Bob

Sharpless. Do you have any advice on what attributes are important when you’re looking

for partners, and what you should steer clear of?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, a partner is somebody who is very important for you, is very very important.

You’ve got to be very careful of who your partner is. I am actually very fortunate that

Bob Sharpless wanted to join me, and I had to give him a hard time before he joined me.

Ray Weekes

He told me that.

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Maha Sinnathamby He’s an amazing character. He’s an amazing character. And they have to have the

stamina to go through these difficulties. He joined me actually when I was broke. I

admire this man. And he went off to his wife and said, “I’ve joined Maha Sinnathamby.”

And she said, “That’s fantastic. How much are you getting paid?” “Nothing.”

[Audience laughter]

“He has nothing.” This is a fact.

Ray Weekes

But you two had $40,000, didn’t you? That was it, $40,000 to start it.

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. We had $40,000. But the thing is, he had the strength of character to back a man

who was broke, and prepared to take a journey with him to leave Perth and bring his wife,

the only child of a very successful surgeon in Perth. They drove across the Nullarbor,

they couldn’t afford an air ticket, to join me. That’s how Bob Sharpless is. So if you

have to select a partner, they have to have the stamina to go through the ups and down.

This is a rollercoaster, my friend. You go up and you come down, and you have to enjoy

it.

[Audience laughter]

Ray Weekes

See, Bob regards you as a brother-in-arms, doesn’t he?

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. We’ve been with each other for over 30 years.

Ray Weekes

This partnership is remarkable. What did he see in you, that he now talks about today?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, whenever I have asked him this or others have asked him, this has come many a

time, he says, “I just like him.” [Laughter] I don’t know why, why he likes a bloke who’s

gone broke and he can’t pay the money.

[Audience laughter]

Ray Weekes

Let me ask you, you don’t advocate wealth as a measure of success.


Ray Weekes

I mean, how do you measure it? [Pause] How do you measure success?

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Maha Sinnathamby Ray, I don’t know whether you know of anybody who has taken wealth when they are

passed away. I haven’t met anybody yet. It’s a temporary joy. You play with it. You

have fun with it. You chase it, you play with it, you have fun with it. You’ve got to

leave it behind. Goodbye. So I think the challenge here is to enjoy the journey, enjoy the

challenge. And leave something behind, something that’s of value.

We value education, as you know, in Springfield, and we put a lot of emphasis on

educating kids. I have 15 schools, 13,300 students all within 5 minutes of each other in

an area that was socially and economically depressed. I have training institutions. I

annoy Terry Mackenroth, even now, to try and bring more trainers in there. We want to

train people to be off the dole. I have a commitment to education. Education is the soul

of Springfield. And so it’s about having that sort of excitement, because you can’t take

the money with you.

Ray Weekes

And let’s talk about unemployment for a moment. Unemployment, the rate in Greater

Springfield, what is it? The level of unemployment.

Maha Sinnathamby The Premier was there the other day opening the GE building and I had to say this: we

have a plan and we have driven this plan hard. For every three residents there must be

one job, and in Springfield the unemployment rate is 2.5%. The Premier was shocked.

Ray Weekes

It’s staggering, isn’t it?

[Audience applause]

Maha Sinnathamby We are an exemplar for the country. The country shouldn’t have an unemployment of

6.3%, and if you drive it hard enough we will bring this country back to a situation of 2-

3%. We shouldn’t be where we are, but I won’t go into politics of that.

Ray Weekes

No. You say, just I really want to explore this a little further too, this passion for

education which is an underpinning at Springfield, what do you mean when you say that,

“Education’s the currency of the future”?

Maha Sinnathamby Ray, education is the only currency that you can go and cash anywhere in the world. It’s

a currency of the future; it’s the only currency that you can go and cash and say, “I am

so-and-so. I’m worth so much.” And it’s the only currency that cannot be stolen from an

owner. And I didn’t want to go into this, but when I lost everything in Perth, I went to

say goodbye to my solicitors and a senior partner said to me, “Man, they have taken

everything away from you, you’ve lost a bit of shine and reputation and so on and so

forth out of your failures, but they can’t take what’s in your head.”

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So education is a currency that cannot be stolen from an owner. It’s always there,

nobody can touch it. It’s with you. So education is the currency of the future. Education

is a currency that can be cashed anywhere and education cannot be stolen. And please

allow me to say this: we have 15 schools and I’m so proud we have an indigenous

school, a school that we brought where girls, 13, 14s were not doing very well where they

were, we brought them; we’ve got 350 students and 50 on the waiting list.

Ray Weekes

That’s outstanding.

Maha Sinnathamby And I will drive this indigenous education. I want them to be part of an Australia, I want

them to be part of a successful Australia where they are mixing with other kids and kids

are learning from them and they’re learning from them. That is the soul of Springfield. I

have a commitment for education. I am who I am for a little bit of education I had, so

I’ve got to give it back.

Ray Weekes

So this kerosene lamp ...

Maha Sinnathamby [Laughter]

Ray Weekes

... that you learned how to value education under a kerosene lamp. Just describe that ...

Maha Sinnathamby Well, first of all, there was no electricity so you had to have a kerosene lamp to study.

[Laughter] But it’s that sort of a perseverance and that sort of an environment that taught

you you have to value this education.

Ray Weekes

So when we look at the, you’re building a city from the ground up. I mean, do you feel

responsible for its culture, its ethos? And if so, what enduring trait would you like to see

live on in the heart and soul of Springfield?

Maha Sinnathamby Ray, this is just a city that has experienced a lot [0:39:28.8] I know you’ll ask that

question perhaps later on ...

Ray Weekes

I will.

Maha Sinnathamby

... but it’s the responsibility that was given by the approval that was given by the

government has put a lot of load on us. This project is moving very fast and what is

fundamentally very important is that we have to create a community that’s a valued

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community; a community that has got extra human and social capital. And that’s what

we have. With 44.6% of our residents being in one form of education or the other, which

is the highest in the country, there is a value-adding experience that’s going on.

Ray Weekes

So Greater Springfield has won international acclaim. It was awarded World’s Best

Master-Planned Community by the International Real Estate Federation. You went

around the world, I know, and visited a number of master-planned communities and came

back with some ideas out of that, but what is it that sets Greater Springfield apart from

other communities internationally?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, we studied, as you said, 15 master-planned communities around the world: 13 in

the US and two in UK. Every one of them had one or the other missing. They either

didn’t have a major railway line or they didn’t have a university or they didn’t have a

hospital or they didn’t have a major shopping centre. We looked at it and we said, “We’ll

have everything here to fit in with Queensland environment.” We came here and we

created our own model and we said, “That’s what it is.”

But fundamentally what is going to stand out for Springfield, which won the World’s

Best Master-Planned Community, is that we were emphasising on human capital and

social capital. That is schooling, training, health. Health is a big factor. We’ve got 52ha,

which is the largest piece of land in this country, for all forms of human healthcare. And

we are talking about an IT hub, because technology is moving at a rapid electronic speed,

what this world is going to be in 10 years, Ray, you know that, it’s going to be a different

world. Now, we are having an IT hub. All these are adding human capital. At the end of

the day it’s all about, when the judges realised we were adding human capital, social

capital, creating a community, I’m not a developer, the government knows I’m not a

developer, I’m a community builder. I’ve got one chance to do it and I’ve got to do it

right.

And can I just finish off with this: the approval that we have is for a CBD that’s the

largest, 369ha of land devoted for a CBD. Brisbane’s CBD is 156ha. Sydney is 161 and

Melbourne is 240. This will be the largest city that will ever emerge. It will go well

beyond me. It might take about another 40, 50, 60, 70 years to come, but it is going to be

a valued community with human capital being the emphasis on it.

Ray Weekes

So is there a dream or a goal or an activity that you haven’t yet done or achieved in your

life that you’ve got this burning desire to do?

Maha Sinnathamby Yeah, I think I have a desire to give a bit of hand with this country. I think we have to

innovate, we have to stop thinking of just manufacturing alone. You have to stop riding

the sheep’s back, or your agricultural part of it. I know they’re very important, we will

still use them. But fundamentally the world is changing so rapidly that we have to go and

innovate, we have to go into the technology area where the world is going to change, and

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we have to challenge countries like Switzerland who are into higher order of activities

and we have to belong there.

Ray Weekes

We’ll come back to your views on Australia shortly, but I mean, Springfield is your

physical legacy. How would you like to be remembered?

Maha Sinnathamby I think one day, and I’m not looking for it, but I’m saying one day somebody will realise

that this was an area [0:43:43.8] was socially and economically depressed and never had

any plan whatsoever, but something happened, you mentioned about a mental asylum and

the prison and all that, and I like to think that we have changed the pattern of life in this

area. Can I say this, on the coming to prisons, I asked the director of prisons once, “What

is the one thing that lands a person in prison?” He was sitting with me over lunch once

and I thought he would ramble on for 15 minutes, but his immediate answer was, “They

can’t read or write.” That’s what lands a person in prison.

Those of us who are parents, we give so much of our life to bring a kid up, 18, 19 years

that Mum and Dad put into this kid in time and money. You lock the person in prison.

Wasted human resource; wasted energy of the parents and their money and a debt to the

state; $195,000 to keep a person in prison. Give me $35,000, let me educate and train

this person. We turned that into a positive, where the person becomes a productive

person. What’s the fun in having this person locked up? So let’s try, I think that’s where

I like to contribute a little bit.

Ray Weekes

So just looking back on your personal journey as an entrepreneur and a business leader,

are there any other key learnings that you want to share with everyone here today; any

other big learnings for you along the way?

Maha Sinnathamby I like to think that we have to have a different attitude about our country. Maybe you can

ask me that later on but ...

Ray Weekes

I’m going to ask you that later on.

Maha Sinnathamby Yep.

Ray Weekes

Right now what I want to ask you about is about your learnings as an entrepreneur, those

big learnings, so I’ll come back to the Australian [0:45:40.0].

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. As an entrepreneur, I think we have got great opportunities in this country and we

should try and take it on, but we should stop making the same tool all the time. We’ve

got to innovate. We’ve got to think bigger. We’ve got to think beyond what we are

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doing. Because out there the world is moving very fast and I look upon entrepreneurs, I

think they can be very very successful into areas that we can go into, into the technology

areas, into innovation and so on and so forth. We can do very well. Why should there be

a Silicon Valley in the US? Why not one here?

Ray Weekes

So we should support the entrepreneurs, the risk takers, with better funding, better access

to risk capital? Is that part of the thinking? To really support the efforts?

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. Yes, part of that, who really are worthy of support. I still come back to the Gandhi

where you don’t have to have money to survive and make money. I mean, we had no

money when we bought Springfield. But I think that is the entrepreneurial spirit that we

want to give. Don’t provide crutches for a person who can walk.

Ray Weekes

And Maha, we clearly see you as a game changer. Do you see yourself as a game

changer?

Maha Sinnathamby I don’t think of all those, I’ve got other things to worry about. [Laughter]

Ray Weekes

But you’ve changed the game; you’ve changed the game in a most fundamental sense.

So how do you see that?

Maha Sinnathamby I think I owe it to the country that I live in, I owe it to the governments that we are

dealing with. Did you know that Queensland is the only state that does not have an

Upper House?

Ray Weekes

Mm.

Maha Sinnathamby I did not realise, but it was told to me the other day, but we live in a great country. We

need to excite kids. I am not very happy about our educational system. I think we should

create more of an entrepreneurial environment for our kids and I think we’ve got a great

opportunity to change some of our educational system. But who am I? We’ve got the

Minister here. [Laughter]

Ray Weekes

I’m sure you’d be listened to. Two of your daughters of which is here tonight, hold

director roles in Springfield. Now, what advice would you give to members of the

audience on going into business with family?

Maha Sinnathamby

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Well, mine will complain about this, but ever since they were 5 years old all I did was

talk to them about the word “realistic”, took them around and showed all the properties

and how properties are bought and sold and what you should look for in property, so they

are very well heeled from the age of about 5. And two of them have decided to join us

and they are doing a wonderful job. One is a bit more conservative; Raynuha is a bit

more conservative, but that’s what she has to be when they are putting up with me.

[Laughter]

Ray Weekes

And Raynuha’s role again is managing director?

Maha Sinnathamby Yeah. And Bob is a bit conservative. That’s good, because I want to move at a million

miles an hour; they say, “Now hold on”, apply the brakes [Laughter] so that’s a good

combination. But I think because the project would go on for another 50, 60, 70 years,

it’s important that the family has some sort of involve and I’m glad that they enjoy it.

Ray Weekes

Good. And has family always come first for you?

Maha Sinnathamby Absolutely. There are three things that I have: family; my work; and my [0:48:55.6]

beliefs [Laughter].

Ray Weekes

That’s good. That’s good. Any other parting advice?

Maha Sinnathamby No, I’d just like to say in advice ...

Ray Weekes

So describe what Australia means to you.

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. I like to say to the audience that we live in a great great great country; a country that

is 2/3 the size of China and India combined in land area, a country which has all the

natural resources the world is hungry for. India and China has a population of 2.5 billion.

We have 23 million. 1% of the population of India and China is sitting on this massive

belt. Four and a half thousand kilometres of pristine ocean frontage, and above all I value

its human rights. In the eyes of the law, we are all equal. What a country. Where will

you get this? We have all got no excuse but to go and be very successful. There is no

excuse, Ray. It’s a great great country. Great climate, you won’t get this, so let’s take

advantage of it and bring it up. Let’s push it really to the limits.

Ray Weekes

Get some nation-building leaders in place. Can we take some questions from the

audience? If you’d like, please raise your hand. We have microphones on either side, so

they’ll come straight to you. Anyone like to start the questions? Yes, right here.

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David Muir

Ray, David Muir. I’d just like to direct a question through you, Ray, to Maha. First of

all, I’m wondering whether Maha would like to tell a little bit about his relationship with

Clem Jones. And one of the reasons I mention that is because Clem, being the former

Lord Mayor of Brisbane, was also an inaugural inductee into the Business Leaders Hall

of Fame, and maybe you could make some reference to relationship with Clem and

maybe what you learnt from Clem.

Maha Sinnathamby Clem was one of the early individuals I came across when we came to Springfield and he

had done a lot in the early stages for me to understand how he brought Centenary

Suburbs and he was a wonderful, strongly believed that Springfield can be a new

Centenary Suburb. And he helped me in taking me to meet Tom Burns, the Minister for

Planning at that stage, the first Minister we had, and convinced him that the Minister

ought to look at this seriously for the benefit of the growing population of south-east

Queensland. He also took me to meet Terry Mackenroth, whom I wouldn’t have had a

chance to meet as a Minister, and Clem was good enough to explain that, “There is an

opportunity here, Ministers, please look at it.” So I am very very indebted to Clem Jones

for who he has and what he has done to us.

Ray Weekes

Yes, remarkable man. Other questions here? Thank you.

Jeanette

Hi Maha, my name’s Jeanette and I’m from the Mater(?)[0:52:10.3]. You talked about

Gandhi and taking inspiration from Gandhi. I wondered who might be some more

modern people that you take inspiration from, if any?

Maha Sinnathamby Who are the ...

Ray Weekes

Just other impressive leaders, apart from Mahatma Gandhi.

Maha Sinnathamby I have got very few other than Gandhi. I place him so high up the ladder that I do not

have anybody else that I can think of. I know of a lot of individuals like Martin Luther

King, Mandela, Roosevelt and the Kennedys, but I have never seen an individual who

could come very close to Gandhi. Gandhi was very very unique in human history.

Ray Weekes

But you do single out John F. Kennedy?

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. Yes.

Ray Weekes

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For his vision?

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. Yes. His fight for civil rights, I very strongly support what he did, because it’s all

about lifting society and having the society as one, rather than have segregation.

Ray Weekes

And his vision for men on the moon and so on.


Ray Weekes

Yes. There’s a question right here, thank you.

Beatrice Tarnawski

Hi Maha. Nice to have you come here this evening and talk with us. My name’s

Beatrice Tarnawski(?)[0:53:22.9]. I just have a question, you say not to stop till the goal

is achieved. You mentioned earlier that you wouldn’t let anything stop you, including

health conditions. What kind of suggestion could you make to somebody who’s living

with a chronic health issue? How can they let their entrepreneurial spirit rise above their

physical capacity? Because somebody might have a burning ambition and the

determination, but their body might be physically holding them back. Do you have any

suggestions there, because you did allude to some health condition yourself earlier, or

something you’ve dealt with.

Maha Sinnathamby Well, as long as they are mentally fit, we do not, I gave a talk the other day at the

disability conference and I said at that conference, “A person is not disabled. He’s able

to do other things.” In the old indigenous culture, there was no such thing as disability.

It was your ability that they considered. Everyone has got an ability, as long as they are

mentally active, as long as there’s no mental problem, they can use your mind to try and

bring whatever they want to do. At the end of the day it’s this; it’s what we do in

[0:54:38.3] that drives us. The physical condition does help if you are better, but don’t let

that be a hindrance, because your mind has to be active. Nothing can stop a person who

wants to be successful, and they have to use their mind to try and achieve it. And we’ve

got to encourage them. We should tell them, “You are not disabled. You are able in

some manner” and try and bring that ability out of them.

Beatrice Tarnawski

Thank you.

Ray Weekes

Another question? Thanks.

Speaker

Just coming out of university, how did you fund your first projects? Would you find

investors or raise the capital yourself?

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Maha Sinnathamby Sorry, I didn’t get that one.

Ray Weekes

How did you fund your first project? Did you raise capital yourself?

Maha Sinnathamby I’m glad you asked that. That might take a bit long, but basically when we saw

Springfield and, as I said to you, it was on the market for 9 months, and I kept on reading

The Courier-Mail and I was watching it, whether it was going to go away, it wasn’t going

away. Thank God it wasn’t going away. Those who had cash, they could have bought it

with petty cash, some of the major companies. But I brought it under contract first and

the vendors were not prepared to entertain me, they did not want to see me. So I brought

in a friend of mine who had money and he represented and I said, “He’s my financier.

Look at him. He’s got the money. [Laughter] And we are both partners.” And we

brought that and finally convinced the public company who was Australian Forest

Holdings to try and rely on his money and my experience to try and get that under

contract. But it was good for us, made it easier for us because no-one else wanted to buy

it.

[Audience laughter]

Ray Weekes

To just follow on from that question too, we’re going to wrap this up very shortly, but

you successfully sought the support of three levels of government that, together with

private capital, have invested close to $12 billion in Greater Springfield’s infrastructure

and construction. So what tips can you share with everyone here about the lobbying of

government on infrastructure spend and so on?

Maha Sinnathamby Well, I don’t lobby the government. I say to individuals, “The government has got more

problems than all of you, okay?” The government needs a solution. We go to the

government with a solution. Don’t go to them with problems. Man, they’ve got more

problems than ...

[Audience laughter]

They got all sorts of problems. So you go to the government to give a solution. And the

Minister will entertain you, if you have a solution and say, “Minister, we want to do this.”

And if that suits his portfolio and that satisfies his requirements, you will try and engage

that yourself and try and work with him to find a solution, and he’s happy with the

solution. And many a time, Mr Mackenroth is here and he was in government for a long

time, he will find that you don’t let them off. They’ll try and say some nice things to you

to try and get rid of you, but you are not going to go away. They should know that you

are not going to go away, because this is the right thing to do and you are trying to help

them. Because as I said, they’ve got a lot of problems, they can only give you so much of

time. So don’t try to go and give them more problems than what they have.

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Ray Weekes

Just got time for two more questions. Yes, right here, thank you.

Wendy

Good evening Maha, my name’s Wendy. I believe in inclusive communities, which is

what you’re creating at Springfield, a wonderful opportunity, and I believe that inclusion

in a community starts at home. Just as you challenged the Premier the other evening at

the Robert Jones Oration, I’d like to challenge you to ensure that all the new homes built

in Springfield, in Greater Springfield, follow inclusive design and detail so that people

like me can get in the front door and visit friends and family whenever we want to.

Ray Weekes

Thank you for that.

Maha Sinnathamby Were you there at that lecture that I ...

Wendy

I was, yes.

Maha Sinnathamby You were. Well, you know my answer to the Premier was.

Wendy

Yes.

Maha Sinnathamby And I also offered her my help. I also nominated an individual who was a director

general with the government for about 17 years.

Wendy

Yep, that’s right. Yeah.

Maha Sinnathamby And I said to her, “I’m waiting for you to try and come back to us so that we can apply

these by law.”

Wendy

Yep, absolutely. That’s what it requires.

Maha Sinnathamby That means the state government, the council, and the developers have an obligation to

contribute that little bit of money that has to be spent initially to try and make the homes

accessible. And I would like you to [0:59:32.2] please follow this up ...

Wendy

I will, yep.

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Maha Sinnathamby ... with Kevin Cox because we left a solution for them. And I said, “I don’t want to come

at the end of the year and find that it hasn’t been done.” So I think she’s going to act on

it. She’s definitely taken that up very seriously.

Wendy

That’s right. But you as an individual developer can already start by creating a covenant.

Maha Sinnathamby Yes. Well, if you had come to our GE building opening, you will find it is 100%

accessible to everyone.

Wendy

Absolutely.

Ray Weekes

I’d like to ...

Wendy Luckily the law, the law ...

Ray Weekes

Sorry, we’ll have to finish that there.

Wendy

Sure.

Ray Weekes

We might just ask another question, thank you. Just to say that that oration, I agree with

you, was remarkable, and that this is a call to action for working in this area, so thank

you. Any final question? Thank you.

Speaker

Maha, John Gibson’s my name. I’m a retired structural engineer. I’ve had a lifelong

interest in railways and I look at the Redcliffe Peninsula, who is just getting new railway

now, and I think from memory it proceeded in planning was a lot earlier than yours, yet

you seem to have got your railway up and running in a lot shorter time and duration. Can

you share with us a little bit of the how that came about, how you got a railway line

which is the freeway of transport into your area?

Maha Sinnathamby I think the credit goes to the Minister, or Terry Mackenroth was the Minister of Planning.

He insisted, and I mean he insisted, that we give all land free [Laughter] for a railway line

and it was designated and it was spelt out so there was no land acquisition for the

government and everything was planned and mapped out from day 1. There was no

interference to the route from Darra to Richlands and from Richlands to Springfield, the

land was mapped and the land was there. That’s the biggest hurdle that the Redcliffe line

has had, the number of owners who have come up and the acquisition programs, but here

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it was a much much easier solution for the government to decide. Plus of course they

knew that there was a rapid population growth that’s happening here.

Ray Weekes

I think you’d agree this has been a very special experience. Could I ask you please to

thank Maha Sinnathamby.

[Applause]

Maha, thank you. Thank you very much.

Maha Sinnathamby [1:01:52.1]

Peter Little

Maha, before making some closing comments, Sister Angela Mary, who was an initial

inductee to the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of Fame and is a good friend of yours,

sent her best wishes tonight, she would have loved to have been here. She turned 90 last

week and wasn’t able to be here, but I hope she’s watching on the live stream. For those

who don’t know, this is all live-streamed, but she sent her best wishes to you.

Maha Sinnathamby I’ll wave to her.

[Audience laughter]

Peter Little

Maha, I read a lot of leadership literature and a lot of history and it strikes me that all of

the great leaders, the great game changers in history, are able to see things that others

can’t, and it’s the one thing that stands out for me. It’s a recurring theme, that people can

just see things, and you referred to the sculptor being able to see a beautiful face in a

stone, and you saw a beautiful city within a pretty desolate landscape. And that’s quite

an extraordinary thing. So as we reflect on the success here, I think it’s just worth

mentioning this ability to see, you know, we’re trying to explore what great

entrepreneurs, how they achieve their success and it’s not just about money and leverage

and risk-taking and so on, but I think it starts with a vision.

And out of all the interviews we’ve done here, I think a distinction here tonight is that

you actually started with a grand vision. A lot of the entrepreneurs, you know, our great

entrepreneurs, start with a vision and they build up and it becomes a greater and greater

vision. The remarkable thing in your case is that you actually started with a grand vision

and you’ve delivered on that vision, a truly remarkable achievement. I think what came

through was your strong sense of self-belief, your passion, and relentlessly pursuing your

vision. If you don’t mind me saying, I detected one failure that you didn’t identify, and

that was that you went to the University of New South Wales.

[Audience laughter]

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I can assure you, if you’d failed the first year at QUT, we would have only made you

repeat the subjects you failed.

[Audience laughter]

Maha Sinnathamby [1:04:38.7]

Peter Little And so you probably would have saved 18 months in the process.

Ray Weekes

[1:04:44.8] doesn’t matter that I’m with the University of New South Wales [1:04:47.2]

Peter Little I won’t talk about your failures, Ray.

[Audience laughter]

Peter Little

But Maha, thank you so much for your warmth, your humour, your openness and sharing

your very deep personal insights. And ladies and gentlemen, we saw a game changer on

a grand scale tonight and I’d like you to thank Maha once again.

[Applause]

Peter Little

I’d like also to thank Ray for a wonderful conversation again tonight. As always,

brilliantly done Ray, wonderful questions. The only thing is, I wondered at various

stages who was in charge of the conversation. So would you please thank Ray.

[Applause]

Peter Little

For those of you who would like to revisit this wonderful conversation or share it with

friends, the webcast will be available on the SLQ website within a week. Maha’s book

Stop Not Till the Goal is Reached is for sale outside, and Maha is happy to sign that for

you at no extra charge. And once again, I’d like to thank you all for being here. We

really do appreciate your participation in these wonderful conversations.

I invite you to come along to the next Game Changers conversation on the 28th

of

October where we’ll be talking to Nathan Mayfield, the cofounder and CEO of Hoodlum,

an Emmy Award winner and BAFTA award winner, a great Queensland production

company that’s doing wonderful things internationally. It’s one of our really great

exports. They’re producing a very long television series right now for the NBC in

America and they’re really great Queensland entrepreneurs, having a go and succeeding

internationally. So it will be another remarkable conversation. But right now, would you

please join us on the Queensland Terrace for refreshments supported by our generous

sponsor, Clovely Estate, and please take the opportunity to meet somebody that you don’t

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know, Maha or somebody else here tonight, and thank you very much for coming.

Goodnight.

[Applause]

[end of recording]

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