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8/14/2019 LBCfulltranscript2

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Jeni Barnett LBC MMR show transcript

Part 1JB1.mp3

0.00 to 7.01 minutes

JB: Now, it's cold, it's miserable, lots of us are

snuffling, lots of us have got viruses, some of us will be

affected by it, some of us won't. Every single time we

come round again to 'measles epidemic' or 'infection rates

rise in Europe" my first thought is: I'm an independent,

individual human being, I have raised a biological child

and two logical children. Sometimes their responses to

things were worse than others, sometimes children around

them had a response that was worse than mine, than my kids.The fact is, the notion that we're all the same, that you

have to be inoculating children with this MMR jab, this

debate is going to go on for ever and ever and always at

the back of it, in my head is 'hold on a minute, there's a

drug company that's making lots of money out of it'. And I

always get really anxious when I hear the you know now that

we've got 'Banishing measles

*TIMESTAMP: 1.00*

from Europe in 2010 may have been dashed by poor

vaccinations rates in a handful of countries'. you cannot

have your cake and eat it. You cannot be putting rubbishand carp in food endlessly and looking at the rise of

asthma and obesity and then turn round and not say look

what's happening with measles. You have to approach the

whole thing at the health of our children and the health of

our society. Now back in the day (and that's an expression

I've learned from my [unclear] son), back in the day,

children got measles, children got mumps. I'm not

suggesting - I am not suggesting - that we got backwards

where some children, where we have one in fifteen children

die of it. And that one person in fifteen is the one we

have to be looking at and wondering why and dealing withit. But if, as a human being, you decide you do not want

to give your child a vaccination, you should, in a

democracy, have that right to day no.

*TIMESTAMP: 2.00*

There are some children - whether you like it or whether

you do not - that have a response to that triple jabbing

that is not good for them. We have evidence, however much


2/30

people say we don't, we have evidence that if a child's

immune system is weak; my daughter was one of them, she was

very asthmatic as a child, she could not have received that

triple vaccine, she couldnt have done it so I made a

calculated decision that I didn't want to go there. and it

isn't a decision that's made easily, it's a lonely

decision, if you're not part of the herd, if your' not

mooing with the other cows or baaing with the other sheep,

if you wanting to stand alone, it's a very lonely business

standing under a tree in a field all on your own saying 'I

don't want to do that'. So I want you to phone me and tell

me why you decided against the vaccine and how you're

coping with people saying 'See! You're the reason, you are

the reason we haven't banished measles'. I had that said

to me by doctor in Canada: 'You haven't had your chid

vaccinated?

*TIMESTAMP: 3.00*

Your-' he left me in the kitchen! He blamed me for thewhole measles epidemic. 0-8-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 Why didn't

you have your child vaccinated, hw are you coping with the

fact that people don't like you for it, how do you like it

when you are, when the study is documenting that 12,000

cases of European measles in the two years spanning 2006

and 2007 means that we are one of the handful of countries

in Britain that are not doing it right. Well maybe, maybe

there are all sorts of other figures that have been

withheld from us, and I don't know what they are because

they've been withheld! Measles is a contagious infection

caused by a virus. Measles was once common but because ofimmunisation it's now fortunately becoming very rare. I

want to know from some kind of expert

*TIMESTAMP: 4.00*

what measles is and what is in the vaccine, and why people

have a reaction to it, and really my question is: what is

wrong with childhood illnesses? Is it - to hark back to

the first hour - because we don't have parents at home

looking after the children? What's going on? Is there

something wrong with having mumps, is there something - you

know is it - most people aren't that one in fifteen. So if

you did not have your child vaccinated, why? 0-8-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 Text me if you decided against having that

triple M, and are now dealing with people saying 'you are

responsible for the rise in measles'. Text me on 8-4-8-5-

0. We are living in the 21st century, we have running

water, most of us have running water, most of us live in

better situations than we did when I grew up - I grew up in

two rooms with rats and mice in the


3/30

*TIMESTAMP: 5.00*

east end of London. I can remember it. And DON'T email me

in - there's a guy who emails me in to say 'Oh you just

want to be part of the east end' no, I grew up in St Marks

St, thank you very much, born in Mile End Road, and when I

go there now I look at it and think blimey that's my

birthright and thank God for that I like it. my feet are

rooted in the east end even though my parents were rehoused

- rehoused - in council housing, social housing, that

welfare state looked after us poor little immigrant Jews.

And we were sent to this lovely house and there we have it.

Asthma runs in my family, asthma runs in my husband's

family so my daughter was not inoculated. I, however, have

talked to many people over the years - 22 years I've lived

with my daughter - and over the years many many people have

said the same thing, that when we were little, chicken pox,

you took your kid to get the chickenpox, you made sure your

child was near somebody who had it. My brother got mumps,*TIMESTAMP: 6.00*

he lived to tell the tale. I don't know if we had

measles. I was sitting next to Nick Owen on the settee at

TV AM when his children were incubating rubella which is

measles, and I was pregnant! Now I'm not saying that we

shouldn't be using science and medicine to make everybody

healthy, but there's an obsession now with trying to

sanitise absolutely everything, and if your child's immune

system is strong enough it will fight and it will grow and

it will be strong. Too many antibiotics and now we have

MRSA and superbugs. I'm not an expert, this is what I haveobserved, phone me: 0-8-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. If you chose to

stand under the tree in the field outside the herd. Tracey

in Olympia talk to me.

T: Hi Jeni, yes I'd like to totally agree with you the fact

that immunisation is totally unnecessary especially

*TIMESTAMP: 7.00*

in this day and age when-


4/30

Part 2

JB2.mp3

JB: Phone me, 08456060973, if you chose to stand under the

tree, inthe field, outside the herd. Tracy in Olympia, talk to me.

TIMESTAMP 7:00

Tracy (T): Hi Jeni. Yes, I'd like to totally agree with you

the fact

that immunisation is totally unnecessary, especially in

this day and

age when hygiene has changed so much since how it used to

be.

I have 4 children. The oldest being 12, the youngest being

3. [Infant

noises.] You can probably hear in the background right now.

JB: Don't talk to me, just talk to her for a second.

Tracy: [Soothes child.] My eldest is 12, my youngest is 3,

none of

them have ever been vaccinated, immunised. And they're all

very

healthy children. They don't have any auto-immune diseases.

They don'tsuffer asthma, eczema. I just think [vaccination] is total

abuse of

the immune system.

TIMESTAMP 8:00

JB: Now, now, now. I want to do this slowly because you're

going to

have people phoning in saying you're utterly irresponsible.

12 years ago when you had your first baby, why did you nothave them inoculated?

Tracy: It started off, I went on a short course about, it

was a

choice, making a choice about vaccination. And it was run

by a

homeopath.


5/30

JB: But why did you go on that course in the first place?

Tracy: Because I had a feeling inside, I inherently knew,

that it must

be wrong to be putting toxins and poisonous material into a

young

baby's body.

JB: Right.

Tracy: It's as simple as that. Mercury, formaldehyde, you

know - live

viruses that are cured (?) in monkeys' kidneys. How can

that be right

for your child?

JB: Now, are you, by any stretch of the imagination,described as a

crank by your friends?

Tracy: No. They all know me too well now.

JB: So, when you made that decision, and when I made that

decision 22

years ago, it is about the loneliest decision you're ever

going to

make.

Tracy: Oh, absolutely! Even your family, you'll have people

standing up saying,

TIMESTAMP 9:00

"Why? Aren't you being irresponsible?". You've got the

doctors, you've

got the health authorities...You know you've just got to

take the bull

by the horns and confront that on a daily basis.

People at the school would frown upon me as if my child was

in some

way was gonna infect their child by not being vaccinated.

But I'm a very strong-willed person anyway. And from what I

learned


6/30

from my first son being born I decided, yeah, I want to

take this

further, and investigated it a bit more and went on to

college and

trained to become a homeopath.

JB: Really?

Tracy: Yes. It all came from initially just thinking, "Do

I want to

so this?" and it all started with that very first thought.

And you

know what? The more you investigate it, the more you find

out about

it. And anyone, right now, this moment in time can go on

the internet,

they can go on sites. They can find out the dangers of

vaccinationand make their own informed decision.

I'm not saying that for everybody it's going to be as

straightforward

and as straight cut as I was able to make that decision

myself. But I

just knew, from the beginning, that it was the wrong thing

to do.

TIMESTAMP 10:00

JB: This is fascinating.

Tracy, let me ask you this. When measles-if there's a case

of measles

at the kids' school, or if there's a case of mumps or

chickenpox-what

do you do?

Tracy: I say, "Great! Come on kids let's go get it".

Because

children get childhood diseases for a reason. It's to boosttheir

immune system so that later on in life when they come into

contact

with those diseases, it doesn't affect them so severely.

And that is

why they are called childhood diseases.


7/30

The only reason children get really, really ill and

perhaps, you know,

suffer serious side-effects are if:

a) their immune system is not strong enough to fight off

the virus, or

b) they are being suppressed by drugs or in some other way.

Suppressant drugs or given too much antibiotics or...

JB: Now, now, you see, Tracy. People will hear what you're

saying and

they'll say,

TIMESTAMP 11:00

"It's all right for you". As you've (quite rightly) said,

your

kids-Thank God, touch wood and I'm touching it as we speak-

they haverun through this. But you are saying it is an individual

decision,

aren't you?

Tracy: Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I would never, even in my

job, I would

never say to people, "You mustn't do that". I would give

them the

facts and say, "This is what I've come across. Go on these

websites-and there are thousands out there-do your own

investigations,don't take my word for it. You know, everything I say, it

may be my

truth, it may not be yours. But you must investigate it

yourself and

don't take the easy way out".

I've had doctors ringing me at home. I've had Health

Visitors having

angry conversations with me. And now, what I say to those

people-whose

minds I'm not going to change anyway-that's fine-I justsay, "That's

my choice I'm making and I am making an informed decision".

And every

parent has the right to make an informed decision.

Unfortunately, not

many people do want to do that.


8/30

JB: Tracy, I think that with you inspiring them they may

jolly well

want to after that.

Fantastic. 2:15 and [going to travel segment].


9/30

Part 3

JB3.mp3

JB: You just heard from Tracey, four kids, became a

homeopath on the back of thinking of whether she should

have her first child immunised. And this is on the back ofus being the Dirty Land, really. We are the dirty land of

Europe; a new study has documented that we are now up there

with the best of the them, with more cases of measles than

we should have. They wanted to banish measles from Europe

by 2010.

There are many other ways of doing it, rather than jabbing

people! And I am a responsible parent! This is from Kay

(that was the mail address) my son was fully immunised

with MMR; I did not let my younger daughter have the MMR

booster. They have been fine until this summer.

My fully immunised son got the mumps, mildly and everyone

thought that my daughter would get it worse guess what,

she didnt get a single symptom! Interesting - that the

doctors did not know what to do with the mumps, it had been

so long since theyd seen it they had to look up in their

computers or in the manuals to answer my questions about

incubation or staying out of circulation.

Now, you heard what our young homeopath said youve

always got to hear two sides, youve got to make an

informed decision your children will not be the same asanybody elses children. But I can remember my brother

getting mumps and him getting swollen glands and him being

given jelly and ice-cream and I can remember running around

and NOT getting mumps! And I can remember my mother saying

weve got to be careful, because hes a boy and you know

what happens with mumps I didnt know what happened

with mumps, who knew? Something to do with the testicular

region, well, I didnt know.

But the fact is that the more we sanitise society and the

more we become absolutely whats the word hypocriticalabout stuff you cannot support letting our children run

riot and not converse with each other and not play and all

the other stuff that were doing and then get up in high

dudgeon when we dont put drugs into their body!

Stick the kids out running in air, ban cars on the road,

make them have six hours a day PE at school give them an


10/30

hour every single day where theyre running around playing

rounders and walls and not just a few! My daughters

beautiful boy Nathan, hes a footballer and he gets an

infection and he falls over he gets better, because hes

always running and jumping and doing star-jumps or whatever

you do!

We have to look at the source of this, and its not good

for you you listened to that clip from Nick Ferraris

program if you scare-monger, people dont know how to

make clear decisions about some things.

Do you want your kids to have an inoculation or dont you?

Dont make people feel guilty if you make the decision that

they dont want to have drugs put into them; when I was out

in American, eighteen months ago, the only cases of polio

that were coming across were the ones where the children

had the polio vaccine. And most doctors who were out in theStates were not letting their children have it! What does

that say to you?

Its empirical! Empirical wisdom! Experience! [Phone

number] How do you make a decision on behalf of your

children?

John in Epsom talk to me.

John: Afternoon Jenny. Im not a medical expert, but I

listen to the radio and I listen to LBC I listen to yourcompetitors quite a lot. Every single medical expert that

youve ever had on LBC, always said MMRs are a good thing

and all the evidence against them have been refuted.

JB: yeah.

John: So?

JB: Does that make it right??

John: Well, yeah! I pretty much think it does, actually!Yeah!

JB: How come?

John: Well, you sound like when you say My four kids,

this ladies four kids you sound like one of those

people who say My Aunty Flo lived to be a hundred and ten


11/30

and she smoked a hundred cigarettes a day! Theres always

going to be someone, but in general...

JB: Uh, but wasnt Aunty Flo ALLOWED to do that?

John: She was, but would she have done it and would you

have let her do it, and would the world been happy for her

to do it, if we knew now...

JB: What we knew then?

John: What we know now?

JB: But thats precisely why I didnt want my kids and my

granddaughter and I dont know what Zowies choice is going

to be, but thats precisely because we do know what we know

now, that I dont want to go anywhere near drugs! Im sixty

in eight months time and people ask if Ill go on HRT no!Do I want plastic surgery? No! But the media and the drug

companies would like to make me unusual!

John: Do you not feel that all this information thats out

there, it is being weighted in a certain direction...

JB: Yeah, to frighten us!

John: No, not to frighten us look theres this fellow who

was on James OBrians program this week, whose written a

book called BAD SCIENCE

JB: Right.

John: ...and he went on about all the things like, your

previous lady was a homeopath, and with all due respect,

the guy talking about BAD SCIENCE was talking about all

kinds of things that people regard as remedies, and this

guy who is a doctor was laughing at the, um...

JB: [interrupts] Listen, let me put this to you

John: ...the lack of evidence...

JB: John, let me put this to you theres a good point and

I take your point. But let me put this to you my nan, if

you had an ear infection, would have put salt in a sock,

heated it up, somehow (she didnt have a microwave), put it

behind your ear and good golly, Miss Molly, that ear


12/30

infection would slow down in some way. Now, theres not a

lot of science in it, but it blooming well worked!

John: You dont know that theres a lot of science in it

Jeni?

JB: No, but what Im saying is that

John: It might be down to heat on the back of the ear

JB: ...of course it is! But you said it yourself, John,

scientific evidence and the media, we all weigh things in a

particular way, so that we come up with the answer that we

want to come up with if you are funding a vaccine as a

drug company, you are going to want to frighten people into

having to take it! Because somebody wants to make the money

out of it! And its all about its all about economics.

And Im delighted that you listen to LBC, its wonderful,

because it means that you are listening to both sides.

Bad Science? Absolutely! And you know, Darwin was born a

hundred years ago this week and theres a lot of people who

thought Darwin had it wrong. Things change, John!

Amandas in Haywards Heath, talk to me, Amanda


13/30

Part 4

JB: Amanda, talk to me.

Amanda: Hello! Um, I've got eight children,

JB: Mazel-tov! Are you still sane?

Amanda: No! Anyway, and I started off, young, about twenty

- did all the things you were supposed to do and presented

my daughter and she had all her vaccinations and my second

daughter had all her vaccinations. Then my son was born and

he reacted very badly to the first, and what I think then

was the double or triple jab.

Um, so he then didn't have any more, although he did then

have the MMR, well, he did have some more, but he didn't

have any more Whooping Cough. He then had the MMR, um and

then when he was three he was diagnosed with autism. And so

I got quite involved in vaccines, because I wasn't sure,

um, my paediatrician was quite sure that it was the cause

of the autism, but I mean, I didn't know.

And from then on, I decided not to have my children

vaccinated I just thought 'better be on the safe side'

I mean, my paediatrician thought it was great, my GPs

weren't; they were always very unhappy that I didn't have

them vaccinated.TIMESTAMP: 1.00

JB: Why, why though, that the GPs won't take on what the

paediatrician did??

Amanda: I don't know! I mean, my paediatrician is great,

she's a very holistic paediatrician she was the of big

chief consultants at a hospital down on the south coast, so

she's a very good paediatrician, but she very much believed

in in just sort of holistically looking after the child.

Um, she didn't like giving drugs for things if you didn'tneed it.

JB: But you know, people do throw 'guilt things', at you,

don't they? They must say to you 'all right, for you,

Amanda'.

Amanda: Um


14/30

JB: How do you cope with that?

Amanda: Well, yeah, they probably do, um, the main thing

I found is that my eldest who has everything, she actually

had a really bad case of Whooping Cough, about two years

ago. And we did get quite a lot of things thrown at us then

but she was the one who had been vaccinated. None of my

other children picked it up.

TIMESTAMP: 2.00

JB: Now what would you say I mean, it's not my job to say

to people 'don't do it', it's not my job to do any of that.

But you're allowed to have your say. What would you say to

people as a mum of eight little lives that you're deeply

responsible for? What would you say to people who are in

two minds about it?

Amanda: Um. Well, I would never recommend having children

vaccinated, and people think I'm very strange. But all my

younger children who have never been vaccinated have been

very, very healthy. Um, the youngest had measles, um, now

three months ago. And he was fine, he wasn't very well for

about a week, ten days and then he was fine, and none of

my others picked it up. So, I think they must have a

certain amount of natural immunity and I'm far, far

happier for them to have developed that 'natural immunity'

than to be constantly filled with artificial substances.

JB: Well, thank you so much, my darling, that was Amanda in

Hayword's Heath.

"I was just listening to your show, if people took the time

to look at what's in vaccines, they would think twice about

giving them to their children. As well as not being a

hundred percent effective, they also have cancer-causing

agents.

Timestamp: 3.00

"Also a child's immune system takes approximately two to

three months to fully get up and running from birth. Also,if we look at the countries that have the highest

population vaccinated, you will notice that they have the

most allergies. I'm not totally against immunisations, but

we should be giving children at least a year to develop

their own immune system to deal with the onslaught."


15/30


16/30

Part 5JB5gillianrob.mp3

0.00 to 11.31

JB: -little band that didn't do anything. Now they've just

been signed by FM records - Muzzletof(??) - fantastic and

their debut EP is going to be released on the 26th of

January. Well Done Nylonski(??) fantastic. So the 31st of

January if you want to go to the BreastFest it should be

really really good. Now, that's my little announcement -

we'll come back to the discussion. Geraldine in

Hampstead, thank you very much for holding the line, you

are absolutely pro the jabs, are you?

GH: I'm not absolutely pro or anti anything, but before I

talk about that can I say I think you radio show is

wonderful but isn't it a little irresponsible to read out a

text from somebody you don't know at all?

JB: I keep saying! You know-

GH: Let me finish.

JB: Go on.

GH: - to say that the vaccinations have cancer-causing

substances. Because you will scare new mothers.

JB: Well no no listen-

GH: You don't know who wrote it-

JB: I don't, well absolutely not, but it's an articulate

email and I do - you're absolutely right Geraldine and I

think people have to give their names,

*TIMESTAMP 01.00*

but she was - whoever has written it was the second person

to say it. You heard a homeopath saying, if you go to thesame, if you go to a website you will find exactly what

this email has been written. But I take your point, I don't

know that it's irresponsible but I take your point. Anyway

please continue.


17/30

GH: OK the only other thing I wanted to say I think it's a

luxury, it is a luxury that people can not vaccinate their

children because the majority do.

JB: Absolutely, I'll give you that.

GH: I have friends who've had polio, because they weren't

vaccinated, I have friends who's children died of whooping

cough, in Eastern Europe, because there were no

vaccinations, these are very nasty illnesses.

JB: Are you a medic, Geraldine?

GH: My husband's a medic, my daughter's a medic and my

grandfather was a medic. And the only other thing I wanted

to say was it's not the drug companies, of course the drugs

companies are pushing it, it's the doctors, it's the GPs,who see the children that aren't vaccinated, that do catch

the illnesses.

JB: Do you see - I find this fascinating

*TIMESTAMP 02.00*

is this a mindset? I don't come from medicine, you do, I

don't like anything to do with allopathic medicine, and you

don't have an issue with it. Now do you think it's a

mindset that cannot be changed?

GH: I think that science has proved more children survive

childhood since the vaccinations have been enforced.

Strongly. I'm sorry for the children that do get whooping

cough because they were vaccinated and the seventh one that

wasn't vaccinated didn't get whooping cough. But I do

think that modern medicine saves lives. And I repeat what

I said: I think it is a luxury of the few, the middle class

few - and I couldn't be more middle class if I tried - it's

a luxury of the middle class few to enjoy homeopathy and

all the other things that are wonderful!

JB: Yes but why-

GH: - but alongside regular medicine. And it-

JB: Yes that's right and I think that it has to be

complementary, and I think that debate has to continue,


18/30

*TIMESTAMP 03.00*

because if we're looking at countries that aren't as

luxurious as ours - what do we do with them?

GH: But children are dying! From whooping cough and

measles, or going blind-

JB: But that's actually Geraldine, my problem, with the

hypocrisy of it. If [feedback] - ooh, are you there?

GH: Yeah, I'm here.

JB: If the medical profession absolutely cared, it would be

sending drugs freely to countries where they need it. If

we're having to pay for these drugs, it's not an altruistic

thing that's happening.

GH: No, it's not, I'm talking about this country.

JB: Yeah but I'm talking about the notion of a drug-fuelled

world, where if we're going to be using drugs, and if some

of them are better than others, and some are beneficial and

some aren't, why isn't it free?

GH: Because big business isn't free. Because that's the

real world. Sadly, it's wrong, I think 100% it's wrong;but it's not free.

JB: OK, thank you very much, and I'm taking Geraldine's

point,

*TIMESTAMP 04.00*

do you know what I might not read out your emails ever

again unless you give me your name. I think she's made an

absolutely important point and I don't want to scaremonger.

Just give me an initial, say who you are, and thenGeraldine, she's put her finger on it, she's absolutely

right. Rob in Bermondsey, please speak to me.

RB: Good afternoon Jeni

JB: Good afternoon sir.


19/30

RB: The very last point that you made, the answer to that

is that it's a geopolitical thing, it's got nothing to do

with the facts of medicine and measles and how measles

affects individuals and indeed how the vaccine affects

individuals. Let me give you just a few very basic facts

for your listeners. My background, I'm quite happy to tell

you what I do, I was a paediatrician for a while and then I

became a GP, I also do some acupuncture and some

complementary medicine so I'm [unclear] to most arguments

and can listen to most points that I can during my day.

And the facts of measles are that most people's experience

of measles if their gets measles is that it's a

*TIMESTAMP 05.00*

mild illness, gives them fever and a rash and mum has to

take a few days off work to look after their child, and

they get better. That's because that's what happens withmost children with measles. Some children however, get very

very very serious complications of measles and because the

measles rate in the UK is lower - although is now on the

increase - most people's experience is of the mild illness.

All you need to do is meet one family whose normal child,

they took the decision not to vaccinate their child, they

got measles, and they got a devastating complication such

as inflammation of the brain which we call encephalitis, or

they died, then your opinion changes.

JB: Not necessarily.

RB: Well it may change your-

JH: But you see Rob let me just-

RB: A different level to your-

JB: It's a different level, I completely take what you're

saying, but I can counter that with: 'Gave my son MMR, and

then watched him

*TIMESTAMP 06.00*

shut down for a week as autism took hold, went from chatty

little boy to no speech at all, now lives in his own world,

I live with guilt' - that's from Paul. Now I can counter

an emotional argument-


20/30

RB: Of course I completely appreciate that and people are,

and still are, very worried about the links between MMR and

even though as Jen, one of your listeners said 'Every GP

who comes on the phone says all of that evidence has been

disproved', it still lingers as a concern, and I meet

parents every day who are concerned about that, and it's

very hard to dispel that.

JB: What do you same to them though, what's your advice?

RB: Well I think, what I take them through is the facts

that I started off this conversation with. The other fact

I just want to tie in and I know you're busy-

JB: No!, you can talk.

RB: Is that vaccination, with vaccinations, some children

don't respond to a vaccination, so some people phone up andthey say 'Look my child's had this vaccine and still got

measles.' That's because of the science of the vaccine,

after one vaccine of MMR about

*TIMESTAMP 07.00*

90% of children will mount a response to protect them from

measles. After the booster - so the second vaccine of MMR

- that figure goes to about 95-96%. That's about 4%

children who've had both doses who'll still be vulnerable.

JB: But there are those [unclear] and if you were [unclear]

are you sneezing?!

RB: Yeah; I'm still here.

JB: God bless you darling, gezundheit, how lovely to have

you sneezing on air. If you were my doctor, and I brought

in my daughter, I would want to know what side effects

there were of these things, and then I would then have to

make my decision based on that, wouldn't I?

RB: Well of course, of course, the other-

JB: And that's what I think- go on.

RB: The other complicating factor [unclear] vaccine is

that, if you're [unclear] is, as you said through your

show, you can make an automous informed decision for


21/30

yourself once you're over sixteen. One your making for

your child is a completely different thought process, isn't

it?

*TIMESTAMP 08.00*

JB: Well absolutely, but Paul has said-

RB: [sneezes]

JB: God bless you again my darling, you're sneezing

[unclear]

RB: Yeah, everyone's given me a cold, people cough in my

face and I get a cold-

JB: But you see there's a point, I'm going to ask you

something here. Have you had the flu jab?

RB: Yes I have.

JB: And still you've got the cold?

RB: I've got a cold but I haven't got the flu, I'm not in

bed unable to get out for a week.

JB: But why-

RB: That vaccine protects you from influenza, it doesn'tprotect you from colds.

JB: You see, I, would there ever be, I mean you say that

you give acupuncture and you give all sorts of

complementary things, why is measles, in the 21st century,

such a hot topic?

JB: Because, I think one of the problems Jeni, the honest

[unclear] is that people like - because the measles, mumps

and rubella comes as one, people think about each of the

individual diseases. Now rubella really is only a problemin early pregnancy,

*TIMESTAMP 09.00*

as you talked about on your show, and mumps, OK, it can

lead to some complications for boys, with their testicles


22/30

if they get involved, but measles is the one that really

does kill. And it does kill children, and it's just

because the numbers in Western Europe and the States and

Australia are lower that we don't see this so often. And

in fact a few years ago there were children dying in

Ireland of measles, I think there were two children, died

in Ireland.

JB: And what causes measles?

RB: Measles is caused by a virus, and it's spread by

coughing, it's spread by sneezing, it's spread by close

contact-

JB: So let me ask you this, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I

want to squeeze it out of you, if it's viral, if childrens'

immune systems are strong-

RB: [sneezes]

JB: God bless you again! If it's a viral thing and

childrens' immune systems are strong, what's the problem?

*TIMESTAMP 10.00*

Is it because our childrens' immune systems are now so shot

that they cannot deal with an ordinary childhood illness?

RB: I don't believe that to be true, you have threechildren in a class, one gets a cold, and that child

sneezes in his class, over his two classmates, one of them

may get a cold and one of them may not, but all three of

those children are perfectly healthy, that's just the

nature of disease.

JB: I didn't say that though. I asking you as a medic, and

you've got an -ology, and I've only got half an -ology,

RB: I have got an -ology [laughs]

JB: [laughs] and an allergy, it sounds like too - if all

three childrens' immune system were very very strong, they

would deal with it differently, wouldn't they? Who's done

that test? Who's done that scientific test?

RB: Well I can't quote you a scientific paper about that,

but it's an observation, isn't it, that people seem to


23/30

think that a sanitised country, and the sanitised parts

that we live in, is weakening children, that's why there's

more eczema,

*TIMESTAMP 11.00*

there's more allergies and this kind of thing, it's a

theory, it's not-

JB: It's not science-

RB: You can dig out papers to prove that, you can dig out

papers to disprove that, but that's the same with modern

medicine, that you have to weigh it in the balance, and my

ending argument really would be, it's a numbers game, and

the numbers are that most children who get measles will get

over it, a very few minority get very serious complications.

JB: That's what needs to be said, and I bless you, Dr Rob

in Bermondsey, and actually, he has to go because we're

going to Travel, but-


24/30

Part 6

JB6.mp3

TIMESTAMP 37:00

JB: It's 10 to 3.

The body is a really delicate organism. The tiniest bit of

something

can make you go weird. A little tiny bit of caffeine and

you can be

running up and down the stairs. A little bit of potassium

sor...I

don't know-whatever they put in these drinks-can make you

itch.

The body is a finely-tuned animal. We are animals.

Obi in Richmond was looking at his sister's London County

Council

Public Health Department Immunisation Record Card from

1966. Between

2 and 4 months of age, she was injected for diphtheria,

tetanus and

whooping cough. 2 to 4 months of age. 8 weeks. That little,

tiny body

was injected for diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough.

Between 6 and 8 months, she was injected for poliomyelitis.

TIMESTAMP 38:00

15 months, diphtheria again.

16 months, the smallpox test.

5 years, diphtheria, tetanus and poliomyelitis.

"So, my question is", says Obi, "When did the immunisation

for themeasles and mumps start? I know that I had an allergic

reaction to

whooping cough as a baby, so I had no further jabs, not

even the BCG

at Secondary School. It's all government spin", says Obi.

"Children

don't need the triple jab."


25/30

And Helen says, "If there's such a fear of measles epidemic

because of

lack of take-up of the MMR, why don't they make it easier

to have the

jabs individually? That way surely more children would be

vaccinated.

There seems to be an agenda for reaching a target to wipe

out measles

by a certain date but at what cost to individuals?". She

concludes,

"It's so difficult for young mums now. You're damned if you

do and

you're damned if you don't. It's such a minefield and you

have to live

with the consequences of your decision whichever way you

vote".

TIMESTAMP 39:00

And I think that the reason you fill up my telephone-there

are no

calls being able to come in at the minute- is because

you're phoning

is because there isn't a definitive answer. There is no

absolute

answer.

As a parent, whether you are male or female, you have tomake a

decision based on your family history. I took my daughter

who kept

getting ear infections when she was a kid and one of the

doctors said

to me, "If you do not give her an asthma spray, and do not

do this,

that and the other, she will die within a week". You don't

say that to

a young mum, well, I was an old mum but she was only a

little person.

Since I had asthma and my mother in law died of asthma and

I've told

you this before, that doctor didn't take into account where

I was

coming from. I required him to look in my child's ear and

give me some


26/30

indication of what was going on so I could make an informed

decision.

I, however, am not like Yasmin in Chelsea. You would what

would you

have done in that situation?

Yasmin: I'm just wondering how much longer your programme

is on air.

Because I give hundreds of MMR vaccines

TIMESTAMP 40:00

and all the work that we do in general practice is probably

being

undone by your programme in 15 minutes and I think it's

very

irresponsible.

JB: Why. [Indistinct]

Yasmin: It doesn't seem to be based on any facts. I'm very

sorry to

hear that your child had autism but if you...

JB: My child. Yasmin [not] my child somebody else's

child had autism.

Yasmin: Somebody else's child, I'm very sorry to hear that.But if

they read the Wakefield study in the Lancet in 1998, Dr

Wakefield

actually said that he didn't prove an association between

MMR and...

JB: Well he wasn't really allowed to have his say, was he,

Yasmin. He was kinda

Yasmin: I think he was. I think he said it recently in

court.

JB: But you're not...

Yasmin: I think he's being tried for medical negligence. I

think that

your programme is extremely irresponsible. You're talking...


27/30

JB: Ah, let me just ask this...Let me ask you this before

you go on with that.

How, if you are so certain that your MMR jab is correct,

how can 15

minutes on LBC 97.3 rock what people are thinking?

TIMESTAMP 41:00

Yasmin: Well, you'd be surprised. And at the moment we are

expecting a

measles epidemic and it's because of people like Ken

Livingstone and

people like yourself.

You talk about young mothers who have a very difficult

decision to

make and, I agree, they do, and I spend a lot of timetalking to them.

But people like you don't really make it any easier for

them.

And you were just talking about somebody with an ear

infection. I've

been talking to somebody I know who had a child who woke up

with the

contents of their ear on the pillow and that was down to

the rubella

virus.

So you really need to think about what you're doing here

and why

you're doing it.

JB: Well, you see, I could argue, Yasmin, that you have to

think about

it, too. I'm allowed...

Yasmin: I do, every day.

JB: And so do I, as a parent, and that's what I'm saying.

Yasmin: I'm a parent. And one of my children has had 3

doses of

measles [sic. Possibly meant MMR] and there's no problem

with it. You


28/30

could have a hundred doses of measles [sic. Possibly meant

MMR] and it

would do nothing.

[Yasmin and JB talk over each other]

JB: But why give them the vaccine if they get the measles?

I never can

understand that.

Yasmin: We don't give vaccines to children who have had

measles. They

need a combined vaccine of measles, mumps and rubella.

TIMESTAMP 42:00

If they have one dose the studies show that they possibly

need to berevaccinated within a couple of years to make sure that that

protection carries on for life.

JB: Do you not think, though, that as a parent, I am

allowed to make a

decision about what I put in my kid's body?

Yasmin: Yes. And do you not think that a parent whose child

has cancer

and is having chemotherapy and has a much lower resistance

to thingslike measles, mumps and rubella, has a right for their

child to go to

normal Primary...

JB: Absolutely, absolutely.

Yasmin: A normal Primary School. But because there may be

one child in

the class, such as yours, who is lucky to have the

immunity, that

child might get measles, mumps or rubella and die.

JB: Yasmin, my daughter did not have decent immunity which

is exactly

why I did not have her inoculated.

Yasmin: We don't. We wait until your child is well and fit

enough to


29/30

give the MMR.

JB: But I don't want my child to be fiddled with with all

sorts of

stuff that's in a vaccine. Now why

[JB and Yasmin talk over each other]

Let me finish.

TIMESTAMP 43:00

Yasmin: Could you tell me what's in the vaccine? What do

you think is

in the vaccine?

JB: No, I can't.

Yasmin: Then how can you make a decision for your child?

You're taking

about parents having to make decisions for the child but if

you go

into any secondary school, which I have done, we've been

asked to

vaccinate kids against MMR, they all say they want it.

If you're deny immunisation then you're denying health to

your child

and other children.

JB: No, no, no. My child is absolutely strong and healthy

in many ways...

Yasmin: Then you're one of the lucky ones aren't you? If

your kid had chemotherapy...

JB: Listen, listen, listen. Yasmin will you stop...Stop.

Yasmin: You'd want your child to be protected, wouldn't you?

JB: Stop being so dramatic about it. If you

[JB and Yasmin talk over each other.]

Yasmin: You should think about what you're doing in this

programme.

You're doing a lot of damage. A lot of damage.


30/30

JB: Well, maybe. I don't think so.

Yasmin: You don't know what you're talking about. You can't

even tell

me what's in an MMR vaccine so you shouldn't be talking

about it.

JB: Well, I can get it...Shall I get it off the internet,

Yasmin?

Yasmin: Yeah, get it off the internet, from a reliable

source, the

such as the Department of Health

JB: Really?

Yasmin: and then I might listen to you, yeah.

JB: The Department of Health frightens people.

Thanks, Yasmin, for your call.

I think it's quite interesting. When I was told I had a

high blood

sugar, I was told in that room I had diabetes. I don't have

diabetes,

I have high blood sugar. My blood sugar's normal now but

theyfrightened me. Which is what people like Yasmin does.

This is LBC 97.3.

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