Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 6 AUGUST 1913

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

F1·iendly Societies Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Criminal Code Amendment BiU.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

\VEDNESDAY, 6 AuGUST, 1913.

The SPEAKER (Han. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

CHIMINAL CODE AME~DMENT BILL.

POINT OF ORDER.

The SPEAKER : Referring to the Criminal Code Amendment Bill which was intro{hccd Yeste-daY and upon which a question wns ~aised b.:/ the deputy leadm of the Opposi­tion, I ~le<ire to say that, in my opinion,. the Bill ha< been improper!:,- introduced. Section 18 of the Constitution Act forbids th" introduction of any Bill for appropriat­ing any part of the consolidated revenue without the recommendation of the Crown. It is an established rule than any message· from His Excellency the Governor recom­mending the appropriation of money must be considered in a Committee of the whole House, ,and this is in accordance with our own Standing Order No. 301. This Bill

Personal Explanation. (6 AUGUST,] Questions. 817

was introduced on lean' yesterday, and, after tho leave was obtained, .a message from the Governor was delivered recommending the ~1ecessary appropriation, and the Bill passed Its first readmg. Clause 18 of the Bill seeks to provide that." the expenses of any solicitor or counsel ass1gned and of any assessors appointed, etc.," shall be defra,ed out of the consolidated revenue. It "might be thought that these charges could be paid out of the vote yearly appearing on the Estimates ·as " Fees for Defence of Poor Prisoners." If that '':ere '·O, no message would h.avo been reqUired; but a message from H1s Excdlency the Governor havino­bccn d~livered reco.mmending the necessar~ expenditure, tho B1ll should have been in­troduced in Committee. In my opinion there.fore, the Bill oug:ht to be 'discharged from the paper and remtroduced after con­sideration in Committee in the well·cstab­li·hcd manner.

Tho SECRETARY l<'OR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTI~N (Ho1;1. J. W. Blair, Ipswich) : I beg to g1ve notwe that to-morrow I will move that the House re•·.olve itself into a Commitke of the ·whole to consider tho dtSirableness of introducing a. Bill to amend th'? Criminal Code by establishing a court of cnnunal appeal a_nq making bette1· provision for appeals 111 cnm111al cases, and for oth01' purpmes incid{•nhl to th., aforesaid objects.

PERSO~AL EXPLA~A'TIOX

::0.1r. ADAMSON (IIocklwm1don): ::Ylr. Speakcr,-I would like to 1nake a personal explanation.

Tho SPEAKER: Is it the pleaouro of the House that the hon. member for Roekhamp­km be allowed to make a personal explana­tion?

HoNOURABLE :MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. ADAMSOX: An han. member of this

House accused another han. member of writ­ing to a paper in Rockhampton accusing him-{)£ telling lies, in fact. A report of the separation debat0 which took place her<• on -tho 24th July last----

Tho ;SPEAKER: Order ! I understand that the hon. member wishes to make a personal explanation.

Mr. ADAMSON: Yes.

The SPEAKER : Tho personal explanation made by the han. member for Fitzrov last night. to my knowledge, did not accuse the hon. member for Rockha.mpton of anything, nor ?id he make any accusation .against any particular member of this House, I cannot, therefore, allow the hon. member to origi­nate a debatG on ·a personal explanation wl1ich was ll!a<le at the previous sitting of the House.

Mr. ADAMSON: In the report of the proceedings which took place last night, I lind these ·words-

" I take this opportunit} of Teferring to the maHer, bec;mse there was a m• m­br·r sitting in tho House"--

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. mem­ber must see that I do not know the han. member in this matter. There is nothing to show that the hon. member for Fitzroy w-as referring to the han. membe-r for Rock­hampton when he made his personal ex­planation. I hope the han. memper will 11ot pros.·cutc tho matter any further.

1913-3 ll

Mr. ADAMSON: Will you tell me how I can refer to it?

Mr. GRANT: Admit that you wrote the letter.

Mr. ADA:YISON: I admit that I wrote the letter. I wrote it in reply to a report that appEared in the Rockhampton " Re­cord.''

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. ADAMSON: I said that the hon. member for ]'itzroy said that he never received a circular--

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. ADAMSON : The hon. member for Fiboroy himself--

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must ask the hon. member for Rockhampton to resume his seat, unless he can show me that he was the person atta<>ked by the han. member for Fitzroy. I have no knowledge that the hen. member was the person attacked.

Mr. ADAMSON: Will you tell me how I can do it? How can I prove that I was the han. member attacked, unless you allow me to read the debate?

The SPEAKER : I do not know tho hon. member in this matter at all. The House does not know him in the matter, and I cannot allow him to proceed further.

Mr. ADAMSON: loVell, I suppose I can­

Tho SPEAKER : Order !

::Yir. ADAMSON: Will you allow me to ask you a question ?

The SPEAKER: No. No questions may be asked of the Speaker, except upon points of m:der as they arise.

Mr. ADAMSON: I am very sorry. There is something wrong with our Standing Orders.

QUESTIONS.

PoLICE REPORT. •

Mr. THEODORE (Chillagoe) asked tho Home Secretar~, without notice-

" Why is it that the report of the Commissioner of Police has not yet been presented to this House, although it was pre"ented to the L0gislative Council so long ago as 17th July?"

The HOME SECRETARY (Han. J. G. Appel, A.lbert) replied-

" I have no official knowledge of that fact. As the administrative head of the Home Department, I have not vet laid the report of the Commissioner of Police on the table of the House."

Mr. HAMILTON: It is a r(-•'llarkable thing that it has already appec.rc,d in the public Press.

ARE.\S OF DIVISIONS OF STATE.

Mr. ADA::\1SON asked the Secretary for Railways-

" 1. How does he account for the dif­ference in the areas of the three recog­nised divisions of this State as eei forth in Sir S. '.V. Griffith's Financial Districts Bill, f'outhcrn divioion, 210,736 square miles; Central division, 209,340 square miles; Northern division, 250.434 square milE'9; and the areas given by him

818_ Questions. [ARSEMl3LY~J Jury Bill,

in _his speech in this House on Thursday last, 24th instant-viz., South, 210,736 square miles; Central, 151,536 square miles; Northern, 308,228 square miles?

" 2. "Where, and by whose authority, was this alteration made?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. W. T. Paget, J:lackay) replied-

" 1 and 2. The figures quoted by me on the 24th July last were in accordance with the Central and Northern Dis1Ticts Boundaries Act of 1900."

ST\TE AND C01IMONWEALTH SA \"INGS BANKS.

::'vir. FIHELL Y (Paddinyton) asked the Chief Secretary-

" 1. Has he opened negotiations with the Commonwealth Prime Minister in the direction of having the rivalry be­tween the State and Commonwealth Savings Banks put to an end by the abolition of the Commonwealth institu­tion?

" 2. If not, will he approach ::'vir. Cook immediately and endeavour to obviate the expenses in advertising and adminis­tration entailed by the existing comp.·ri­tion?"

The PREMIER [Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxley) replied-

" 1 and 2. Tho hon. member's sugges­tion may be worthy of consideration."

REINSTATED STRIKERS IN RAILWAY DEPART· 11ENT.

Mr. FIHELLY asked the Secretarv for Railways- •

'' 1. Have any or" the employees who went out on strike and who were in receipt of more than 8s. per diem been placed back upon their old footing in regard to position and wages?

·' 2. If so, how many? "

The SECREL~RY FOR RAIL'.VAYS replied-

" 1 and 2. As promised last eYening, I will, with tho Commissioner, look fully into the present position of each em­ployee who 'vent on strike, compared with his previous rate of pay. It will be readily understood, however, that in order to keep thfl busirwss moving, the Commissioner had to at once fill tho positions vacated by tLo,,-3 men who ldt their work, so that when they returned their fonner <"\n1ployrneut ·was nr,t av~til­able."

ALLOWAXOES TO \VESTERN GiNGERS AND LENGTHS~1EN.

Mr. KIRWAN (Brisbane) asked the Secre­tary for Railwa~o-

" 1. Is he aware th-~t gangers and lengthsmcn bctwPcn Gom·a .• - and Tall­wood on the Souther" aHd \Veot?rn line only receive 3d. p!'r ni;;H \V C'~tern allow­ance', wb J\:as the \Y, •:;tern allowance west of Roma is 6d. ]Wr night?

"2. \Viii he. on irJ )Uil·v after finding if such are th!• fact , ;·iii,,· the allow­ance of the men or~ tho t::\outhern and Western line to dw Fame as that of the men WC?!lt of Roma? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS-· replied-

" 1. Yes for many years Chinchilla has been the starting-point for the allow­ance on the \Vest<'rn line, and Inglewood on the South-western line. The allow­ance conunencps at 3d. )l!n' clay for the fir·t 100 miles (at or west of Chinchilla and Inglewood) : 6d. per day for the second 100 miles (at or west of Blythed~le and Tal! wood); 9cL per day for the thn·d 100 miie. [at or west of :Mungallala) ; and 1s. )Wr day for tho fourth 100 miles (at or west of Walla!).

" 2. It is not proposed to make any alteration."

SELECTORS ON JDIBOL"R REPURCHASED EST.\TE. :Mr. VOWLES (Dalby) asked thp Secretary

for Public Lands---,, 1. Is it the intention of tho Govern­

Jnent to do anything to'' ar,Js relieving the renditions of settlem<mt in respect to the 'electors of tlw J imbour R<:Jmr­clHt''ed E,,tate ·r

"2. If PO, v hat is their intention " 3. If not, will the Gon't'nment ap­

point a S<'lect Committee to inquire into the n1eritr: of tho case? "

The SECUETAH.Y FOR PUBLIC LA);DS (Han. J. 'l'olmie. 1'o'!1coo mba) replif'd-

,, 1, 2, and 3. It is hop<'d that an opportunity may br· found during tho present sc-~~,ion Of introducing legislation affording some measure of relief."

BLECTRIC CR.IXE AT \VOOLLOOXGABBA RAILWAY WHARF.

lVlr. BERTRAM (.l:larn) a.kcd the Secre­tary for Railways-

" 1. "What was the total cost of the electric crn.ne at the Woolloongabba Uail­wav \Yharf?

.~ 2. Is it the intention of the Railway Department to purchase another such crane for that wharf? "

Tho SECREL\RY HOR RAILWAYS replied-

" 1. £8,009 13s. 6d. "2. ='Jot at present!'

JGRY BILL.

The HOME SECRET.\RY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move that you do rw•• leave the chait•.

Quostion put and passed. The SPEAKER: I have to announce that

the Chairman of Committees, Mr. Stodart, is unaYoidablv absent this aft<· noon. I therefore calf upon the hon. member. for Carnarvon. Mr. Gunn, to take the cllatr.

HONOURABLE ME:\IBERS: Hettr, hear !

IxTRODucTION IX Co:vnJITTEE. (Jlr. Gw:n, Carnarvon, i '· the chair.)

The HOME SECRETAHY moved-" That it is dcsir :tble that a Bill be

introduced to consolidate and anH'nel the !a w relating to jurie;."

Qllestion put and P"'sed. The House resumed. Tho TEMPORARY

CHAIR1fAN, reported that the Committee had come to a resolution, and it was agreed to.

Railways Bill. [6 AuausT.] Railways Bill. 819

FIRST READING.

. The Bill >Yas pre';cnted and l"f ad a first tune, and the second reading made an Order of tho Day for to-morrow.

.CJRil\HKAL CODE \I\IENDMEKT BILL.

DISCHARGED FRO:YI pAPER.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­.STRCCTION: I beg to moYe that this Order of the Day and the Bill itself be dis­

·<·harged from the paper. Qut'stion put and pa,sed.

RAIL \L\YS BILL.

HESUMPTION OF COll!MITTEE.

'(Jir. JJ. (:/unil, Carnarvon, in the chair.)

On clause 17-" Secretary and other em­_ployees "-

Mr. HlJXHAM (IJuranda) commended the manner in which the hon. member for Cairns and tho hon. member for Chillagoe had brc:ug!1t forward the difference in the wages J~aid. 111 the ~epartment and those paid out­side 111 some mstances. It seemed to him an a':ornaly that there should be such a marked difference between the wage laid down by t~e W<:ge_s board and that being paid by the Comnnsswner, because certain regulations wol!ld _not permit his going further. He mamtamcd that the Government should be .a mode_! employer, and he thought that tho regulatiOn should h,, made sufficiently clastic to enable the Commissioner to pay the extra money. They could not Imagine for one n:omo~t that he would hesitate to usc that nght m a proppr way, so as to keen the Ben·ice free from strikes or insubordi~ation ·n· dis~,tffections of good men owing to the fact that they were not paid adequately. A case oan10 under his notice only the "Other day. A man >Vas g0tting lOs. 3d. a day for plumbmg work, whereas under the v. ages board the rate fixed was lls. a day, but tho man could not get the increase because the regulations were so rigid. He was per­fectly satisfied that if the regulations had been sufficiently elastic to allow him to do ,.;o, the Commissioner would have paid the wages board rate. He did not know tho man, but he was informed by somebodv who ·knew him "ell, that he was a. high-olass mechanic, and that if he were working in the open market he >voulcl be P,"etting l2s. a day.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The apnro­priation in connection \Yith the 1nen's wUgos has bee.n made by Parliament.

Mr. HUXHAM: He was perfectly sati,fied that the Minister \YOuld find Parliament prepared to incret~se the appropriation. Either there ould be industrial troph]e in the department, or they were goinr,· to get a poorer class of men. If the hon. mf :cber for Chillagoe was .not prepared to mr ,. ' an amendnwnt, he had one which he thr 'l"'ht would mcc t the case. It wac to ad,l. -~n ]J\fe 6. clause 11, bUbf;ection (5), on li: • ; after the worcl " nurnooe." the fo]Ju,-, i, 1 ,, Trords :~ - - o

" but tho .aJ.arie: and ····agn 1ni d d1r. l1 not be less than those respeotiw:y r:dd in the district for work entailing similar duties and labour."

::Ylr. THEODORE thought it was due to the House that the Minister should say what he thought of tho proposed amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Kindly allow the Minister to find out what it is.

Mr. THEODORE 1 The question was just about to be put and declared when he rose.

The SE-CRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I have not eyen read the amendment.

::VIr. THEODORE : In the meantime, he desired to congratulate :VIr. Gunn on his accc ,·.ion to tho position of .\cting Chairman, which he no doubt would fill with credit to himself and satisfaction to the House. It was an honour to which no doubt many members aspired, and he \\'a' sure that Mr. Gunn would render services which would redound to his credit.

Hox01:RABLE MEiliBERS : Hear, hear ! The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS:

This matter had been brought up on the previous eyening, and he then said that it was not proposed that railway employees, whether on construction \York or on the staff of the department, should haYe their wages and conditions of work ruled bv an outside body. It Wl" an amendment to make the Commissioner subservient to the wages boards that dealt with private employers throughout the State.

Ylr. HUXHDI: \Yell, why not?

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He did not propose to accept the amend­ment. He said ;yesterday that employees had man;v privileges that dicl not obtain with private employers.

Mr. HuxHA:II: \Vel!, abolish the prh·ileges and give them reasonable wages.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He <lid not think that suggestion would be .aooeptablo to the railway men. Their privi­leges were 1nany.

Mr. HuNTER: Tel! us some of t<hem. The SECRETARY FeR RAILWAYS :

They had free passes on the railways. They had constant employrnent. They had rations carried free on cc'rtain conditions. Their families were carried at rNluced rates. They had holidays which were not granted to private employees, although in tho clerical branches, for instance, privat-e employees got similar annual holidays. Then, after .a cer­tain number of wars, they got long service loa"'' on full l)ay, and, after a certain number of additional years, they got a gratuity on retiring. Generally speaking, the ·employc>cs in the Railway Department wn·e> satisfied with their conditions under the rPgulations, nne! he was not prcr'are'·\1 to accept an ,_,mendment which would tuke them outsick thosn h•gulations, and probably abo_Jish all the privil<:>gos to which they were entitled.

Mr. KIR\VAN \Bri.,bune): He Yery much regretted to h""r the remarks of the Min­ister. He had thought that the Govern­ment would try to do a fair thing by its r·mployees, yet they had from the Minist-er " declaration that if the House, by canying tho amendment, said that it b0liev,-d in the principle that men in the department should receive equal pay, as men received outside, they would h-, making the Commissioner subservient to outside employers. They did not hear anything- of that kind when it was a question of the highly-salaried officials. He thought that the salaries should be such,

'Jf r. Kirwan .. ]

820 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

whether for the Commissioner or porters or ·anybody ·else, as t<> ,attract the best men in the State to the service of the Government.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It doPS, does it not?

Mr. KIRWAN: They knew perfDctly well that men left the service to better them­selves. Ho knew of a man who was getting £150 in the Railway Department, and now was getting £300 from a private firm. If a private firm c<>uld pay that salary, and make money out of that officer, surely the Government could ,afford to pay it.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: :\n excep­tional case.

Mr. KIRWAX: They had heard a great deal made of the fact that certain privi­leges were enjoyed by railway ·employees. All he had to say was that they had to pav pretty handsomely for them in reduced wage"s and longer hours, and llC hoped that when tho question came up as to suitable re­munelation in the lower grades they W<mld not hear the same argumDnt. He ''anted to draw the atkmtion of the Minister to a particular < aso of a lad porter, \Vho, if he lived at Corincla, had to pay his fare in a'nd out to work. Certainly he got reduced rates, but he would ougg·est that the Min­ister should knock it out alt<>gether and give him a free pass when he was going to and hom work. He took that opportunity of ~aving that, 'lO fn.r as thE' prPsent ConnniR­sioner was concerned, that officer had done a. great deal to got bettor payments for the men in the lower grades, and he was ~>ati~­fied that if he now had a free hand he would urge tho .acceptance of this amendment.

He was perfectly satisfied that [ 4 p.m.] the Commissioner recognised

that if they wore t<> have an efficient and contented service it was desir­able that tho men should bo paid all they earned.

Mr. FOLEY (Jlundinuuurm): The Min­ister gave as a reason why he could not ·a-coopt the amendment, that if the Com­missioner was compelled to pay wages similar to those' paid to employees outside the department ll<' would be subservient to wages boards. While the ::Vlinister admitted that railway employees got lower wages than were paid to similar <'mployees outside the service, he claimed that they got some privi­lege' which sometimes more than compen­sated them for the lower wagt>s received.

The SECRETARY r'OR RAILWAYS: I did not admit that theJ got lower wag<''.

Mr. FOLEY: Tho hon. gentleman did not admit that?

The SECRET.\RY FOR RAIL'\'AYS: No. Do locomotivd drivers got low,•r wages than are ]mid t J locomotive drh-e,-s outside of the depal'tnF'nt ;

::\1r. FOLEY: Did the hon. gentleman mv that employ< os of tho department got highe'r 1\ ag·ec than omplo:,-ee·; outside recci red?

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAIL\'dY'': The'. do, 'Yith the privilncs thev rccoi\ e. ,

:Vl r. FOLEY: That Teuark might ap >1:-· to what '·'· ~rB called men "on tho staff," but there were a largo number of men em11lo·-orl by the department who never becaclW e~m­bers of tho staff, and they had to ~u bmit to the "ame wages as the staff h ~n ls, ;rith­out tho privileges awarded to the staff hands. The departnwnt h:>d a knack of em-

f 1lf r. f{ ir1oru'

ploying what they called '' casual hands," or men who were temporarily engaged when v:ork was prebSing and extra labour Y.as required. 'l'hey employed these men ior six months, and in order that they should not become eligible for appointment as staff hands, they knocked them off a day or two· before the six months expired, and a day or two afterwards they put them on again to start another six months as casual workers. 'That had been done in scores of cases in Townsville.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: A grMt number of those men prefer to be on the temporary staff, because they get 6d . .a clay more than the permanent employees.

Mr. FOLEY: The Minister was now want­ing to get out of a corner.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: No; I havo no corner to get out of. I am simply ansvvering your statement.

Mr. FOLEY: IIis cxnorienec was that those men would rather b~ on the permanent staff.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Our experi­ence is to the contrary.

Mr. FOLEY: But for fear that the men should make application to get on the per­manent staff, they were dismissed a day or two before their six months were up_ In fact, instructions were given to the higher officials that thev were not to allow the men to overstep the· six months, for fear they should want to become permanent staff' hands.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They are paid 6d. per day extra.

Mr. FOLEY: As far as he knew, the temporary employees were paid th<:; . same. wages as the staff hands, less tho pnvrleges accorded to permanent emplo;·ees. ~h.o casual hands were not entitled to any pnvl­leges, and in some cases they had to work for ls. and ls. 6d. per day l<>ss than men who were employed by private ompl<>yers. Scores and soores of men had been kept for years in tho position of casual hands b~- employing them for a period of six months and then dismissing them a day or two before tho six months expired, and then reappointing them for another term. The Commissioner should be compelled to pay temporary employee's at least the rates ruling in the cli,trict for a similar class of work, and that was all that was asked for by the. am~ndment. He had known cases in Towns­ville where wharf labourers were getting ls. 6d. an hour for discharging rails from ship, into the railwa,v truck-. The Railway Department used to send on men to the wharf to take thoFe rails from the Ycharf l abour0rs and stack them on the trucks, and thev wore naid onlY h. an hour for that .,.o;k. A bit of a 'noien was raiSGd about that. \Yith tho r<'sult that the raihcay men wore• now g< tting ls. 6cl. nn hour fo1· tho work they did on the wharf in the way of di•·charging and loadinf: i 'w raik The Go­vernment and the local authoritie~ ought to sot a good example in their treatment of th:cir omployc,cs, 'md instead of cutting down wages shm{ld enclPa vour to raise them so that privatA cmplo}ers might be enconraq·ed t., follow suit. Ho hoped that the ::'\linister would sec tho justice of the rrmendment, and that if he could not accept it as far as the staff hands wore concerned, he would accept it as far a, temporary hands wore·

RaiZwayB B1ll. [6 AUGUST,) RailwayB Bill. 821

-concerned, and pay them the same wages as were paid by priYate employers for a similar class of work.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He had stated by interjection that tem­porary hands were paid 6cl. a clay more than staff hands. He had since found that when the regulations were amended last year the wage9 were made the same in both eases. Many of the temporary hands were men who could not pass into the dr-part­ment and be appointed to the permanent Btaff by reason of the fact that they were -oYer age, or undersized, or lacked one or more of the prescribed qualifications· but Jhey were giYen temporary employrne'nt at the same rate of wages as was paid to per­manent hands, and, generally speaking they could obtain the pri ,-ileges that wer~ granted to permanent employees.

Mr. BOWMAN (F•J,rtitude rallty) was Ycry sorry the Minister declined to accept the amendment. There was ample evidence th>:t manY: men eng~gcd in . carp_entering, bmler-makmg, mcmldmg, engmeermg and blacksmithing in the Ipswich Railway \York­shops were to-day paid lower rates than were paid in shops outside of the Govern­ment ""·vice. This fact had been repeatecllv brought under the notice of himself and other 1;10mber.co by repr<'9t·ntatives of those rcspectiYe trades, who had asked thmn to see if something could not be done to brin~ tho wages of engineers in the Ips-wich ·work~ shops up ~o .the standa_rd rate paid by \Valkers Lnn1tcd. and m many other en­gineering establishments in the State. The Minist( r seemed to think that with the many advantages that h<> claimed that rail­'vay ser1 ants pos·::~cssed in the tvav of free l'aihvay pas:-30" and other conct.··"'siOns, thev were much better off than men emplo•.·ecl at similar work b,. private employers' at a higher \Yaq·c. His (Mr. Bowman's) opinion was. that if public servants generally had the cho1•'o b.:;i.wcen the rate·:, that were paid by many prn-ate employer.,. and those paid by the Government, together with the privileges accorded them, they would prefer the rat~s paid by priYate employers. Those who had long service extending oyer twenty or twenty-fin• :.-ears were granted six months' leaxe of abonnce on full pay.

The SECRETARY FOR RA!l,W.\YB: So arc the railway men.

.=>rr. BO\\ MAN: That might be so, but, >nth other members who had spoken, he ''-as of opinion that if there wore anv emplovers in the Stat., that ought to bP 'an example to all oth0r employers, thPy wer" the Stat€' Government, the ]i ederal Government, and the municipal authorities. They should be model •·mployers. It might be argm·rl that tho Federal, St;tle, and municipcd employers wen• not out to make profit in tho R:une wav as private on1ployers were, but ho \Voul(t point out that thP master p,·intcrs had pro­tf'c,tccl very strongly against the action of the GoYernmcnt Printinc: Offic('-an insti­tution which wa' a Cl'c·dit to the Rtate­becau.s~ it had -entered ida comnetition with men engaged in the printing bnsin~·,s. He belieYed that the )H'c< .. ent Commiosionrr for Railways_ !1ad dont_· \ er~· 1nuch to i1nprovo the conchtwns of the men employed in the railwav sen-icc-in fact, th;xt he, had done more in that cliJ:ection than almost any of his prcderes·o! in office. \Yhy? Bee au''·"

the Commissioner was a man who had risen from the lowest rung of the ladder to the position he occupied to-clay, and knew from practieal experience what it was to ~,;o through the mill as an ordinary porter, a guard, a station-master, a district traffic manager, and general traffic manager. He belieyed that the Commissioner was anxious that the men in the service should have the very best conditions, but he ~upposefl that that officer, like other public servants who were believed to be responsible to Parlia­ment only, had to be guided by members sitting on the Treasury ben<;~h. He should have pleasure in supporting the amendment if it came to a division.

Mr. FIHELLY (l'acldingtun) was quite in accord with the sentiments of the hon. mem­ber for Fortitude Valley in this matter, as it appcal('d to onP's sense of equity and jus­tice. If om· railway work was not being done by day labour, the wntractor would have to pay the rate of wag·,., ruling in any particular district, as the people outside would not stand anything in the nature of sweating by cutting clown th" wages, whieh was the policy of the Minister. He knew the han. gentleman would rppucliate that, but he (Mr. Fihclly) knew that it wa' so. It "'as also the policy adopted by the Min­istry twelve or eighteen months ago, when the State Departm0nt of \Yorks cut down the "ages of certain individuals who were working for the Commonwo .tlth. Tho Com­mom' ealth was allowing 9s. a clay, and the present :Minister cut that down to Ss_ lJecaU·''l h,c did not pay his HnployN·S mor<· tha '! 8s. Tho Goyornment \Verc YerY Y':iF..3 about the pennic< :mel foolish about· the pounds, as ''as evidenced bv the fact that while th<.·;­refused a rcasona'ble wage to Iowt!r-pard 111etlf ; hey did not mind the highly-paid officers having an extra £200. Last • ear, when the Mini,tcr as,urcd the Committee that no one m·er £400 was getting an increase•, they knew that three or fonr did get incr,·ases, despite the statement of the Minister. Mr. Brown was sent to Tmmsvilk on a £50 in­crease, which was equivalent to £1 a week, and yet they refused the \Yorker· 6cl. a day mar<'. It seemed to him that bv the action of the clrpart:nent !he big men. were pam­pered, and tho little llWn sv eated. The men 1Yith the big •• scrc\vs" g,Jt the increases.

The SEC'::tET.lRY FOR RAILW.iYS: If vou an; satisfied that that is so, why do you· labour it?

J\1 r. FIHELL Y: Hr v anted to get it into ihe head of tho hon. gontlc•n1an; h(' kne\V it won1d require a fU~gical 0[H_'~'ation, but he ,,-a:-< doing hi~ h •,.t. The l· PrnHlllL'!lt officials mic·bt b0 ,,vc•o.tul to" certain nxtc,tt, but the organi:;;cd na> ·de~~ in the Xorth could not Lo S\n·atc<;; thev dPmandecl the ruling rate, and they got.' it. Last year. -.. -hen thev had the Industrial Pea.;e Bill before them, tlwy were told that it would '" ,, tic ally solve .• dl their industrial problem If that Bill had all the Yirtue the han. m0mbcrs oppo,,ite said, why did they not Rpply it to their cnvn serv-ants? Evon if th.._, v went •)11 the princi;>lc tlu·t they could toleratP a good deal thcnbeh·c' ,,·hich thev r mid not ''xcnse in the other fdlmY--i11at th,,y themselves f'cll!\d •'X~·at others, Jmt \YOnld not alloW the other fellow to sweat-it still remained a rf':..t ~onable propor--.:tl to give eYer:, I ~thJnr.cr the rulinc:; rate of rc1g·.es in the district. He was in accord ccs to +lw ::>tate being- the best employer-whether it , .. as the Stat-e, the

]Jf r. Fihe.lly.]

822 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

'Commonwealth, or the municipality. In any services org-anised for tlw public g-ood, the best wag-e should be paid, not only a wag-e >vhich would kBcp a man above comparative po,·erty, merely enabling him to keep and <'duecate his family-h,, should he able to put something by for his old age, and not be de,titute when he wa,; worn out. In Aus­tralia they pandered too much· to the man with the big salary, who generally had a pension arrang<~d for him. He beli!'Ved tho judges drew their pensions; they had every­thing right ew•n when they knocked off work, or what was humorously called work. Tho labourer had to scratch along on Ss. or 9s. ;•. day, on \Yhich he had to ,,upport a large family. The labourer roquirE'd m l only hon. members' SJI01Pathy but their assist­ance, and he hoper! the JHiniskr would look beyond the JWrmanent officials who influenced him and pi :~ctic 'ly dirccb•d the poli•:Y of thP dc•partment.

The bEC'RETARY l-'OR R ULW.\YH: There arC' almo t 10,000 of them on the staff.

:\rr. FIHELLY: Four of thcs0 10.000 iHflu nerd the hon. lll•'mber. direct• d his 1Joli1-,::", ar,d k~)v... hin1 .Ul)vri~ . .c J of €'\ ;:-ry­thing that >las nloYing, and practi0\1ly in­spired all his ~tat.~Inf''1ts here. The hon. gcnt.Ien1an "\Yould give the idoa that he ·wa'\ in collabo<ation '' ith his 10,000 C'Vc-ry day­that he wa•. tlv Cnr, the "li:tto father" of his people-but ho lr-okrd af'.0I' tho few at th£' top. Tho>· WL'- only asking for the rul­inp- wa -:e \~,i1ich Burnf-·, Phil1J. and Co. 0r

C'•··I··~r and Co. ·,• uuld )lay, bat tho hon. gPntle-nlilU had no tirnc for th1_ a.nH~ndn1ent.

:\h. E. B. (!. CORS1~R (JI· rpboro,•rtlt): The hon. nwn;bor for Fortitude Vall<•v had point0d O"l· tlu.t th0 rai!Y:ay emplo;y<,r··· "-a,,t.•d th.J same wage.• l·eic! at tho Ipswich \YOrksho·n, r,,s Qi \Yalkers I .. i1nited. Ilc knP'Y th, t \Y'alkors Limit<•d ratiwr comphinNl tint their IhC'll ldt their Pmploy to go to i he Ipswich workshop· bcc.m· ... , thcv en­joyE.d privilcgp·, which the:,- did no(: g~t at \Yalkors Liuitcd. (Ikar. herr!) HP m.l~· wit'hed that tho , d n1e f'onditic.:1, pr( \·ailed in the IpsY·ich WJrkshcl,, rc; ir South Aus­tralia, where all engine wt.rL Y:as tc ldCPd for bv tlw J. part,ncnt ., '•ell "' b,­priY::tt•~ {ic·m·~. That \VU" th<_ fiiirest v;a: tO get the low0st price and the ~lest result. The men .at ·walkers Limited y\·ere satisfied \Yith th,,ir \Yag{·' >nd con~1i-t:ions, but thev >Yonld naturally accr pt anything th t v;a,, brt!"J', and thn;,· thought that the rc>~ula­tions at Il1f·F~,;~h r::aY, tlwn1 Inorc priYilC'g(·~.

l\fr. BOV.'}L\0:: TltC'Y do not giYe them hi"Y.hcr \Yag<'··

~\fr. THEODORE: D0 yon think \Yalker.: l .. itnit£0. are not pa3 i11p: higher wage"·?

),Ir. E. B. C. CORSER: II" did not sac· that. ~ut ho said th.1t the- priYilvfT,{'f< giv('il at tho Ips,vich \Yorkshop· 111oro than conl­p0nsat('d for the eli_;-; P1'011C in wagC's.

:\lr. IIrXTER: Thr~· were frequently told by the :Ministt>r that the priYileges which tho l'~dhYay einploycr>f' en,?oycd \VCrf' c::nnuensation for anv difference in \vas:-es. He had so froqucllt!y"heard that gag thrmvn om that he "ot!ld ask the :\Iinistor to state "'!dutt tho~e pri·dlcges Wf'l'C'.

Tho S:c,·m~TAR>: FOR R.\Ir,WAYS: I mea­tioned some of them.

:\lr. TfCXT:r;R: Ii:e would like to hear tht•!:I all giYen. It "as be,t to pay a man what he was worth, and if : ou had any-

[ .Llf r. F Z:helly.

thing over to give it to him, and . say nothing about it. He Phould _not be grven p:u·t of the money he <'arned m wages and a part in son1e conce'"J>c·ions" becaU&l~ It. "\Yas a "smoodging'' way of getting. the loan of a m~n. He thought the questwn raised was not in regard to the whole_ of th? wages throughout the service, but It specially re­fl'rrcd to the construction rates.

'The SECHETARY >'OR RAILWAYS: Ko hon. members ·,aid it was in connection with 111ech anir,~.

JHr. H'CXTER: lie "·ould conw to that. He had here the "Commom\'o.Llth Y<·ar Book" for 1911-12, which wpre tlh' late•,t fiP,'m<'' the,.- conld gd. This shm;ed the ratP of wag<'' gi,-en throughout the Cornmon­y. (•alth for engine-dri,·crP, guarcl.s. porters, ,Jtunters, and c.ignallcrs. \Yith rpgard to en~·inc-dri.-ers of locomotives, in Sydney the mmimum wag0 was £3 Os. 6d. up to £4 lOs. a wt•ek : in Melbounw, £3 9s. up to £4 '[s. : in Brisbane. £2 17s. to £4 7.'.; in Adelaide, £3 12s. to £4· :s,.; in Perth. £3 12s. to £4 lOs. : and in Hobart, £3 to £3 12· Taking the ·Jircn1cn, tlw wE,r~es paid in Sydne:v w~rc :1-.;2 14s. to £3; in :vit•lbonrn<', £2 Ss. to £2 17s. ; in Brisbane, £2 5s. to £3; in .Adc­laic!0, £2 14s. to £3 6s. ; in Pt rth, £2 14s. to £3 ; and in Hobart, £2 5s. to £2 14'. Tiw wages paid to gtP.rds in Sydney were £2 lls. to £3 6s.; Melbourne, £2 L: ·· to £3 12s. : Brisbane, £2 9s. 6d. to £4 4s. ; Ade­laide. £2 lls. to £3 9s. ; Perth, £3 to £3 15s.; and Hobart, £2 Ss. to £3 12·-. Tlw

rl:te-3 for nort('l.'l 1Yl'l',-, :~Sydney, [4.30 p.m.] £2 Ss. t~ £2 14~.; ~Ir!bourne.

£2 2s. to £2 lls. ; Bri•·l.-crce, £2 E . t•l £2 lb.; Adelaide, £2 8F. to £2 lls.; h rtb. £2 14•. to £3; Hoba1·t, £1 19s. to £2 [!-;. The ra7cs for shunters \Veri·~:~ Sydn<'y, £2 11 to £3 12s. ; :\I~llJonrne, £2 Ss. t1 £3 6s.: Bri-r,,I .~, £2 Ss. tJ £3 12s.; Adelaick, £2 11 , to £2 17 . ; I'Nth, £2 l'is. to £3 15s.; Hohar·t. £2 8·. t<> £2 17, There .~g·ain Que0nsland \\'as EH:: lowest, cxcc>;1t Tiob<rt. The rates for Signalm~n y1·nc :-S< dnoY, £2 14s. to £3 18s.; Bns­banr> £2,b. to £3 S.s.; :MPibonrn<'. £2 lls. to £3 ISs. ; AdelaidP. £2 lls. to £3 6s. ; Perth, £2 14s. to £4 ls.; Hobart, £2 5s. to £2 17". There ag"\in. if the~· v•;:cPpt•,·cl IIo1l:n.t. Quc-:'n"Iand paid the lo·~;:-.st in the "·hole of tho States.

::\T!'. ro:r:'-:YTH: GiY U' thf' rat<'S for casual Jahonr.

J'.lr. l1 CXTER : Thc-y v c•rc not given. ThC' SI;: RCJ \P,Y ron R.\IL\V.iYS: Sotne of

thoc;e fignr{'R arc not quite correct.

Vr. Hr?\TER: Some of the figure,; mi,zh~ L~ \Y! ong, but, fr{;IlOl'ally t·l1Caking. t?oy. could be taken e,s frirly con·erl and indiCatne of the rates of v. age' paid in th0 different States. LocmnotiYe m< '1 < mploycd in tho raihvav ">··-~rvicc had r:o1nnlaincd to hirn thrt thcv '"~ere not rt ceiYing the saH]C r£'Inuncr.J.­tioll for their labour as men in si1ni1ar cJ:ll­ine-s rec,,ivcd in oth{ :· State·.:. Thrre '.Yere r:o~~1plaints in other dirr•ctionA. too, sueh as raih,-a:. freis hte.

The SL'RETARY rOR R.\ILWAYS: Yen want to rJ.i'o war;-cs and to reduce tho fn :g;ht,.

;\Jr. IH~XTER: The freight' c~<CHg,,d were too high altogether.

The SECRET.\RY FOR RAILvVAYR: You ·1. ant to cut off each PHd, and to takP a bit" out of th~ middLe as well.

· Ra1lways Bill. '[6 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 823

:!>f1·. H"CNTER : \Yhen theY found theY •n:re charging too high for their freight;, and were not paying euflieient wages to the· 11!('11, it ,-,ho,n~([ that ... oJ.nC'thing· "-as tho ,,,attor, and it was a pity that tlw Royal Connnission ''"as not appointed, as asked for h;f the Opposition. Thev "Pre told that tho departnwut eould not pay more wage·, but h'"; honed tlh )l._inish•r would had~ a thorough inquir,1· made ino the matter and &eo if sotno chang{_~ cou!d not be ruade.

Tlw SL'HBTARY FOR Rm,W.WR: Yon might Jlt:· 3d. in the £1 more on your ineomo tax.

:\1r. Hl'XTER: No one paid incmne tax Inore ci,r:«rfn1h- than lw djtl. 1-TP ''a:-; al-, ay;) ,,-illing t'~ vay inronw tax, and would r:\tho1· S< t it incn•ascd lnd other taxt'" n·duucd. IJ t; \.Yonld soonP1' f.ce the Tre:tsurt:r g<Jt. IHOn tnotwy fn1n1 inemue tax and 1c% frotn raih~.-a~ freip:htf:.. an it \Youlcl b{' a. bettl•r p1liey for ()ncr'ncJland. He did nor beiieye in th0 railwa~, making monc·.v at the x )qv:_n !-e of those \Yorking- on the raih\ ays, and t.hr. ~0 engaged in th( con~truction of railwrtv,,, any mon• than h dirl bv eharging <'xc·:t-"'h n freights. It ww,, not ri£Tht., as the\ ".-l'l'<• doing, t() cut (\nYn the- liYing. wage o'"f uwn who could lr ast afioni to bc:cr it. Tlw GovPrnn"'cmt shonld trc at it"· <'nlployco as well as priyatn cn1plovers t; r:-a.tf'd their;;. lie 1You1d ~upport i.hc Unwndn1ent, bPcausp it 'ras fai1 proprx•al. Complaints •ver, l'C'gnla.::l;; 1nad0 that th0 nu•n Pngagt'd ou TI0' 7

.- }inc \VC'l'G not rf'tf iYing· aR lllUCh lll011C'V

a~ !Tit :1 n•c,•i\. t•d for r,_itnil,ar Work in th(, n,·ighLourhood. I-I<' thought the GoY('rn­lnc•nt should pay the highc.st \Yag<'s aYailabl~.

'\!r. \VI'\ST.•.::\'LB\- (Quuntrw): \Yhat­t'vf'r tni~)1t bP r: aid about t1w eonh-ntion of thu l\lini<.iel· th1t th(~ priYih .. gt,'i 1nadc np for laci" cf '.l. ~g~·t :-., so f<.>r as th-- pe..._·nwncnt lwnd" w-Pr<' con.z ,•rncd. it L~Hl no apvlic~.t­tion to tho HH'n <'nga'!,f~- t on em1 ,L nctiou

The SF.r N;l'\RY --o;< HAIL\\ AlS: I did not .&ay anrthing about lad~ of ,_·ages.

"\h. Wli'\ST \XLEY: The pri.-ilegcs <lid not mak·• up for lack of wag< ;. The stat' . Illent ha,_i reJil'a~~·dl:v 1 Jen 1·1adc that IHPJJ

l'i,~ •. l'd in tl-P Haih-,D.~- Dep.trhn:.nt goJ­pn nle,; · •shich ,,r.• worth mor<' than \\a.' .. \'"· ln:: iu a gr0at ll. Jny i11stancr>t> thr> pri·,ilt.g·~ -('l'P 1norP ap1;fUc';::i.. the111 n·al. \Yhat ·v::as attractid· a'b-m ... th0 railwa";.~ ~~,·rYiCt' '\YR'-' that ilu ... ~·f' ,.,., u.· Jf..f:ult {'·nviF_\ln ... ·nt. If 111 n got sark(~d L·olll tlH' railw~~ :ervic:..> o1· .;.'.'t' puh1ic .. ,c~ryicf' at a LlGHL)nt's noticP, ju"t a-.; tbc.v did in l'riYatc C'Hl1Jlc;.·, ther<> Y:o·:tlJ h• quit'~ a di;"f0:C'l1t O!Jinion ('Xpl'C'""',C'd u!lDUt th< lJUblic ~('l'i-j('L\ tn IY!lat thc'1'Q \YUS at th n:·{'~"-'nt iinu The r~ilwa-'.' lll<'Jl should

-rh~·ir full Y\ agt : and t.lH:'.'· should not SiY·'ll ~n·.i.yiJegl''· in li<'H of \Yag< 1t

"n;;; ljh ~~.P old tiuH _. ·.·~·hl~n nu·n rrnt pa1 c of tl··~ir 1·:a~f''"i in tn.'~J'l'·--tlH trnd;;: ;.,':strnl.--­tnd th::~.1- \,·a;;; '.C'l' nn·.u~:i.sfacto:c";·. 01;-;•

privi1C'Rl hich the'~ railwa;; rnen ~.: '·'l'f' suv~ -JY ,. d to g<·t ' l' tlut tL ,,. got th:ir pro­Yisions c·:rric<l fn" on t1w 1·ailwa\ fl. but th'l"'v ,_, O'.ll'l not b~ carri0{l · ,a::::t an~· tovvn. For ins·l.1ncc', nwn ·yorkirg ":r.st of :r'ru~·hen~ d~.n could not !TCt th· ir IHOYi,·ionR fron1 Ch1rt"r.-, Tov:tn·s or TownsyiUP! so that what lo J«'d lik<c a priYilcs:<' was really not u priYi1egc at tll. The ::\iini:-;t~'r F J,icl thn i the Gn~·,·rnt1lC'nt 11ai,1 the~ rab.~ of "\Yago: ru1intr in th{' \.:.i.strict, but ,as a n1atter of fact tlwv did nothing- of tlw kind. They Ln .. w th~tt in C1L~rte~·R Towers the Govcrrl­l!1Cl1.j_ F1ad0 t1w ndning cotnpani(',:; pay lOs.

a dl'Y to the men t]l('y ,,ngasred, but th<> GoYernment themselv"'' 'only paid the men engao-ed on railway construction work 9s. a dav." That "as the rpa_;on that the men \Yc:i1t out on strikf\ and rmnained out on strike for somP months. and temporary hand" were envae'ed to do the work. The men (•ngagecl '';,:rl,construction work, were entitled to the ,.:.me rate that th0y would g<'t from an ordinary employer. The railwa3 men wantod bettN· wag0s, and were prepar .• d to fon'go their privileges, as th<·y could pay for them if they wanted th'"!'· He w~uld ,'up port tho anu:ndn1ent, as It was a JUSt 8'-.cl rr·a~onabk· and equitable one. lie '""" '!.Jrr·' tht\ ~iinister did not accept it, as no one· ·"·onld suffer if it were adopted.

:1Ir. O'SL'LLIV A~ IK rnnccly) said he was quite· in accord with tlw amendment. It w•u quite time th11.t the Gowrnrnent ga•e cqn:, l 1-aymcnt for equal work. Some con­sidorablo time• ago, in :'>;'ev: Sonth '\Vales, th_. Gon:rnment agreed to pay tlw. war;;·es hxed bY the· wages bJ::trd, or \.rb1trnt1on Court, ~nd 1vhere~""CT GoYC'l'ntnont 1ncn were <'l11ployed thl"~- recci\""etl t.b~ sn;:;:11c. pa;yn1.ent a" <>imilar iabonr in th<' cl1stnd~ The ga ngcr '·'as 0ntitlE·d· to more pay than he "Nas receiving, as he often had to dra.\V up '""orts and do other worl: which took up a co;JsiclcrablP a1nount of his ti1nc, and yet lw recei.-ed no overtime. He was supposed to 2:ct some privikge .a· a sot-off against this o.-crtime work, but a man who had to \"'"·ork oc, u-rtin1e drawing up rcportJ-; anch going through the red tape of the depart­m<nt was put to a gr<'at strum. and h<' ,;lwnld bP raid for it. \\'hat priYilrgos chd a lcn_g1 hsmlm get: :'11any of them coul:Inot :1ilord to take ad' anhge of thPH' prrv1!egcs, owing to th<' ; •nail paymcni thPy reccJYOd. Tlw :\Iini. ), ·r ~,aid that the temporary hands did not ''ant to beco~.tH' pcrrnancnt hanch-; uc lw ''" crediblY informed that these· nFn wi~hc d to be on. the !)C'rinanent staff, so thai theY could scttlo down. It came under his noti( c in his o1vn di:,tri,d that ra1lwa;t nL·n wPnt off to pri.-atP , mployment~ y~t the c wen• the men theY should ret am m ''u• 1·-.:ic.:'.

The s~cRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: T~ere are 14.000 m<'n in tho workshops at Ipswwh, .and plenty more want to get in.

::\1r. O'S1.'LLIYAN: They could not get av "" from the fact that thr·se men were not ·,aid as they ought to be. It h!'d lwen shov\1 on the Estimat<'s that mechamcs were p1id as low as 9s .. a day. Tl_wy were not goinf=.: to keep 1nen 111 the \,GTVICD on such a low ,,·ag-e, and the GoY''rnment ~hould not ta;,e .d.-ani tg" of them. He behevcd that tlwy got a fair (l1y's work .JUt of t1

.1( -'-'B. nH'!C and tl,e·, should pay the rate rulmg m the di-•ri, in which they were cm;Jloycd.

'\Ir. ADAMSON support<;d the amendment, lm> he wanted to give a few facts to ~wove to \be Minister that the mon m the rmlway se ,-i .. e were not all as contented as !·He had said. Just recently they had rece1 ved a pPtition which was presented to the Com­missioner for Railways. setting forth the o-rieYunc''" of the casual hands and the men ~n tho construction works on the North Coast line. They complained they had not received the r·itte of wages that ha~ been pro:nisecl by tho late. Premier, Mr. K1dston, when those large ra1lway works were com· mencad. Thsv pointed out that the casual hands, imtend of reueiving more than the

M rr .A damson .1

824 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

permanent men, were roC<'IVmg the same a.mount as those officers, so that instead of 9s. a day they WBre g·etting only Ss.

The SEqRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Ss. a day was pronused for the Centre and South.

Mr. ADA!'<£SON : The men said that they were pr:om1sed 9s., and that . private em­ployers 111 the Central <listriot were paying >·at~s of wages greatly higher than those which >~e_re b_eing pai<l by the <lepartment. The petitiOn, 111 which they pointed out that they ":ere receiving less than the wages paid by pnvate employers for what they con­ten<lcd was more congenial work, sot out that tho Rockhampton Municipal Council paid 8~. 6d. yer ~ay, the Mount Morgan Municipal Col!ncrl pa1d Ss. 6d. and 9s. and to their samtary men lOs. a day, the Lake's Creek Meatworks paid 9s. 7d. per da;r, the FodNal Gover:rmcnt paid 9s. Sd. per day to men on t.he 'Yuelc~,., t~dPgraphic fjtation works, and, moreover, pa1d the tram fan·s to and from work. And h~ also wish( d to point out that the Mount Morgan Company since then had marl e an agreement to P"'' lOs. a day to th~1:· men. Ilf' would like the Hon. the M1mster to remember t_hat one thing that had resulted from th? State d?Pai t~110nts paying less than th" rulmg r~te.; m pnyate employ­ment wa' that the ] Pderal men had been brought down to the len-d of the State men. The· hon. gentl<enwn said that all the men '

1 .ero content wit·h th<':r po~itions in the :,er­TICf'~. und :yet han. ITIC1nhc1~ r':Gr€ continuallv gM~mg l~t.tors compla~ning about their cm;­dnJOn. The;~ were sunnh content in tlw •'ense that they wcr,, ]'rep'v.red to kc0JJ tLe work tlwv had, l< · t thcv ··hould be thro\Yn out among>t tb• unemJ~loy,•d, and at la .. t become unemployable. He hoped the Minis­ter would S<'c fit to accept this n·asonablc tLinendn1ent.

Mr. KESSEr:L: \Yhen did that Federal reduction happen?

.Mr. THEODORE: SilK:> the ( 'ool; Govern­nlent can1e in.

.:Ylr. LARQOMBE thought this was a very opportune hmc to consider such an amend­ment as this, because . the railway sBrvice lrad bt' 0 ll paymg exce£JJmgly well during the !ast three years. In 1910-11, the net <arn. mgs _wNe 4.58 per cent. ; in 1911-12, the net earmngs. WBre 4.21 per cent., und the rail­ways pm<l mnrh better in those years than JH<'vionsly. The aro-ument that then· should he no outside interf;rencr- did not seem sound to him; it was <>'lly ali echo of the ;crgu­ments that hJ,d been used by private em­ployer··, and '";'S ,till b('imr used, that wages ~oardR. '~ e!'e. hKciy f,J har3'-S and cn1barrass thmn 1n then· industry. If that argu1nent were cound, they shon!<l have no wages hoards at all. They shoul<l allow ovmything: to bo regubted by _the alleged law of supply and demand, wl11ch they knew <lid not operate. They knew that the F"deral Go­vernment had i'" ,:,ed an Act to enab:c t}:eir .employen to appeal to a Foderel tribunal a.nd Fur<'l} they_ could follow that exampl<e: '_!'here was _nothmg harassing or ombar·rasc­mg about It, bec.1use Parliament knew BX­uctly, on0e the m: a•·d was framed. how much money would hu: e to be found.

. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Ve know 1t exactly under the regulations.

Mr. ~ARCOMBE: That 11·as y,hy he was c~n.tendmg that there was no insuperablB difficulty. He would like to point out that

[Ill,•. Adamson.

in New South \Vales, under the Industrial Arbitration Act, passed and amended in 1912, the following proviso was made :-

" Employees employed by the GoYern­ment of New South \Vales, or by any of its departments, including the Chief Commissioner for Railways and Tram­ways, the Sydney Harbour Trust, the Metropolitan Board of \Yater Supply and Sewerage, and the Hunter District Board of \Vater Supply and SBwerage, shall be paid rates and prices not less than those paid to other employees not employed by the Government or its departments doing tho same class of ·work under sin1ilar circun1stances."

That was exactly what the hon. mc1nbcr for Buranda wa' attempting to accomplish.

Mr. MACROSSA'!';: Exactly what you refused· when it was moyed last year.

Mr. LARCOMEE: I-Ie was not discussing what they did Ia,t year. The argument he was using as ba9ed on a precedent in New South \Vales, and on common sense, equity, and justice, and accordingly he claimed the vote of the hon. member for \Vindsnr. He noticed that. he had been posing lately in the Brisbane Press as an adYanccd democrat. He might be that nominally, but he (Mr. Larcombe) regretted to say that he was not an actual democrat. He was not nearly as democratic as other hon. members on that side of the House, and he gulled the people of tho metropolitan area into believing that he ,., as an aclv«nced dflmocrat. \Yhen he entered that Parliament he tDld them in a very doquont way that he had a policv of adYanced lcgi,htion of his own. ·wbere was that policy?

The TKMPORAHY CI-IAlRMAN: Orckr ~ I think what the hon. member is saying has nothing to do with the debate.

::\Ir. LARCOMBE: He regretted exceed­ingly that he wa'' the first hon. member who the Acting Chairman had had to call to order. {Laughter.) H,· was drag-ged away from the tJ;ack by the irrelevant interjection of the hon. member for \Yindsor; ctnd, to usc the hon. member's ov·n phrase, it was a good thing- at tinu•s to ha\ o an irreleYant mind. In C' •nt.ral ()urcmoland priYate f'm­ployers were paying much better wages than the GoYen11nent, particularly in regard to railwa;' con~truclion work. The Centml District Carters' \V ~.ges Board set down the rate of w.<g< , for double-horse lorry drivers at £2 15s. prr w~ek, and that wa>; a good deal in n:cc-.s of the rate the Goyernmf'nt was payin6 on its construction work. He would like to know exactly from thA JHinist-or what the promise made L) the Kidston Go­vermnent was, and what was actn,,lly being paid.

The SEC1lET.UlY FOR RAILW'YS: I told you }fsterday.

~h. LARCO:\lBE: Th0 Hun. the ::Vlini>ter contended that tl}e "\Yagcs lH'orniscd 'VCTn !;,ing paid. bt>' the hou. member for Rock­h;·mpton, himsnlf. :mel other hon. members ,,·aitecl on tllC' Commisiioncr for R.<ih< a>, a few r.la,·s a·.;-o. and placed b< 'ore him a statP­ment showing thnt the rat' ,, promised were not. bP-ing vaid, and the C'>Illn1is~.ioncr did not deny that <"ontcntion. The Han the :~finis~er~ta]kPd about priYiJ"'~( ,_, tl.at the L~cn were enjoying, hut he lm"'·'· that m:> ny of them were not eY<'n enjoying rights. In th0 Central di"trict. gangc>rs h.:d to find th-·ir

Railways Bill. [6 AuGusT.] Railways B1ll. 825

own watche' that thev had to use in their o~dinary work. They "had to go out in all kmds of weather and find their own o; er· eoa.tr:, and they had to start a way from therr homes very frequently at 6 o'Qlock in the morning and did not get home until 7.30 at nigh~, but they were only paid for the actual tune on the work and did not even get a small allowance for the time spent in travelling. Frequently it meant a day of ten hours. He trusted that was <me of the privileges that would not obtain much longer.

Mr .. MACROSSAN (TVimlsor) regretted to notice ~hat' the hon. member for Keppel was suffermg from an attack of flatukney that afternoon, but, nBvertlwle··,, he did not propose to take much notice of his spasms. {Laughter.l

Mr. LARCOii!BE: That is not as bad as sm•lled-headedness.

:Mr. :YIAf'ROSSAK: He believed that the han. member's capacity for that was not <•ven fully cleye]oped yet.. But apart from that, what the han. member reallv desired to suy, he took it was that he (Mr: Macros­san) was not as good a democrat as he was. Bu~ wl:at he (Mr. Ma('ro•-:•,an) proposed to deal With was tho amendment that was befo:·c·. the House, a3 to the Crown paying a ll11n11nun1 rate of \Yag<?'>. Last year, '\Vhen the Indu-trial Peace Bill was before the

I-Iouse, an aHlen(hnent \vas pro­[5 p.m.] ''O'Bd, whereby all Crown em-

ployees ''0re to bo 1nado amen­ab!e to the provisions of that Bill. It was pomted out that that wa· impracticnble for variOus reasons; but, to his mind, the most .cop-c!lt. rca''?n wa' that the Government, the .t?mim,tratn:o body, could not rccognis.-, the nght. to stnke,_ be_cause the rPccgnition of !lw :·1!Sht to stnk0 mvo!Yed a recognition of Inab:_l~ty to re1ncdy a grievance, and, there­fore, If the Governm<nt of tho dav ""re to ,;a;,: that th<'ir empl~yees had the" right to Rtnke., they wou!d, m effect, be admitting thc;t t,wy were mcapable of romcdvin"' 't

legiti1nate griCYanC,"-'\Vhj,,•h wds a VCO~tr~­diction in ~<'rn,• .. C?n that ocr ctsion he pointed out that tne who10 positiOn would be met. and the whole desire of tho.,o who moYcd the anF·ndm{'nt gained, if :u1 a1nendmcnt of a c 'rtain nature wa, brou:cht fonLtrd. H;, th<n P tid that- ·

·'If they could see tlwir wav mutuallv to make it an amondmPnt tha't the min1-Inun1 \\age directed b" the a'-'' nrd of an induFtrial board or court to be paid to muplo; c, ~ in ::c1y calling· should bo paid by the Crown to its emnlov<>cs in the '":1111e r dlinp,-, tho -dL -.ired rC·-,ult -would b0 achien~d:"

He further .'aid that. if Lon. member. in t~C'i1· wiFdonl .<-.a\v fit to adopt tl11.t sug·ge~­tion ancl n1oved an an1, .:_'ldll1Pnt in ac~- ord­anc•• with the sug·gc"tion, he shtnld be onlY ioo plew,nd to Slt)Jj)Ort it. Fm that reacon he should cc"·tainly ::clpport the am0ndment 11ow bcfor.' the Committee.

0PPOdiTIOX ME'lBERS : IIc·ar, hoar ~ and laughter.

Mr. MACROSSAN: After all the attacko; that had been mad, upon him for suo-p-nt­ing that something should be don.' Ia.o+b yoa 1•

and not doing the same thing this vear he thought it ·:.>a'·· onl:: fair and just to" hin;self to cay that not only did that sug·gestion not < manate from the other side, but that it nnanated from himself when they werp nn-

sidering· the Industrial Peace Bill last year, and that members opposite then refused to adopt the suggestion. They rduscd for th<' simple rea'-on that they wished to lay the flattering unction to the souls that they were the people, and that they dcsit·ed to secure all the glory and kudos and adver­tisement in connection with th<> matter. He was onlv there for the purpose of seeing the object accomplished. Personally, he did not care one farthino- about getting· any kudos or adYcrtisemP~t for himself in this matter. He wa' there to support a reason· able amendment when it "as proposed, and to opposP un imprac·ticable one when such an anu;ndment was submitted, and as this amendment was on all-fours with the one he suggested last year, he proposed to sup­port it.

Mr. FOLEY: After the very able ,peech they had just listened to from the hon._n:em· her fot· \Vindsor, he thought th0 :Yllmster would be bound to accept the amendment, and he could not understand whv the hon. gPntleman had delayed acoBpting 'it so long.

Th.P PRRJ~JI:R: L:-'t it go to :;1 Yotr and you will s0o tlw rt'ason.

Mr. FOLEY: Ho knew that the Govern· nwnt were very often deprivccl of the ser­YiOC'S of good men be, a use the wages, they paid \Vere ::o 1nuch lpss than \Yt~re patd by priYat" employer,, in the ,.an;e callin,a·. He knew men in' the workshops at 'l'ownsvil10 who wer~ paid 3s. a, dav ]e,s than carpent<ers outside. The result of 'this poli<'v of paying ]ower \', llg'PS WUS that men only applied for work und(·r the Gon mment wh~n they could not get work outside. B~· their action in paying 3•;. a day Ies •< for carp~nters than was paid Lv :n·ivate employers, the Govern­lnent vvArB Sinlply taking advantage of nH;n'::; nocc, .. itir-.. wlwn they wore compelled to accept \\ ork at almost any price if the;: were not to , llow tho it· ,;-iv<'s and children to c:tarYe. nut 'vlwn tho·, llH'll c,·)u}d find a job out.ide where tlw wag·es were higher, thev, of coursc. left the Railway Depart· 111€-Ilt.

The PRmiJER: Thev don't leave: they hang on to their work. '

Mr. FOLEY: The temporary hands left in every ca·..c· when they could got higher wage, ontsidP. He admitted that the staff hand•· clicl not lean•, hut that was because thev hud be0n a numk•r of vears in the ser­vice, and that entitlcrl thrm to certain priYil<':~·{"'<C;). ~-\.. y! :tr at··o the wag·('S for ear­pentcrs in Townsville we t'c 12s. a day, and the GoYrrnnH nt \Yert- Dnly p,.~ying 3s. a day. How c Jtdd the Government <'xpect to get thf' bc,t trad<smen under 'uch conditions" Tllf' re·-u]", of that kind of thing was that the G-ovcrn!,'ldli got YCl'Y indiffen•ut t::·acbsn1~·!1· -who '<'llt t,) t~1P •Governln.c-nt "\York" 1hlPS \Vlth

the in: f'ntion of carrYing on ih-c' "GoY.f rn-Inro.nt F.trokc." ~

Tl:-:c· PRE~UI'l~: -you don't n1ean to ", .LY that tho n1en in thA Gov0 nnL·nt. \YOrkshop' .are indifferent workmen .

:\Jr. FOLEY: _\good nmuh0r of tlwm were. hccaus,· the Government did not P1Y the san1p rates of y, ~tf~'' .. 'S as private eninloyers. 8nd consequ.>ntly -did not attract the best cia'' of workn,"n.

Tho PRE11I:'R: The men ,,-ill not appreciate your ren1arks.

::'lir. FOLEY: He did not care \\hether they appreciated them or not. Thev were

lifT. Foley.]

826 Railways Bill. [AS SEMEL Y.] Railways Bill.

true; and, as he had aln·ady Raid, the Government often lost tho services of good men be-.ause. they did not pay tho same rates of """ (l"E'~ a:i private employers paid for the same class of "·ork, and the result was that the eountr~· suffered. He hoped that the Gm·ernmnnt would :yet accept the amend· mont.

Mr. THEODORE (Chillago,) "ished to call the attention of the Minister to the fact that th·' Railway Depat:tment was paying less than cny other State in the Common­wealth, cxccut Tasmania, to men employed on n.ilviray construction ·works, in ,.pite oi the efforts of manv members of the Asscmblv to get ·~hose "\\ agfs incr, .. tsccl. ~

Tho I'.<m:uiER: \Ye are doing more railway construction \vork than any oth~T State.

:Ylt:. THEODORE : That ,, as no l'euson for payint· lO\Y('l' \\'i)g't''3 thnn "\HH'C !Jaid by the other State'; b.tt 1 did not think that wn we L·e doing Lll), c 1 ailv.-ay e0nstl\wtion 'York, nn Eiu aye~. ~;·c .. than XL'\Y Bouth \Vales v;as doing.

The Pm ... ar a: Thc•n how i, it that mGn D re con1ing up here l ,'Pr~- tL,·y looking for ~,o,·ork!

Mr. THEODOHE: Tho,, nHn C'lhlP up he_:_·e lookino· hn~ work other than railwa·y constructio<- \vork. -~t the :samp tin1c, h.c admi ted that in some ua1ts of Qwc,•nsland the GoYer .. uuent were p ... ying as n1uch for th:-tt clar=s of \York a«> wa~ vaid in :\Pw South \Vales. Victotia 1wid 9 .. a da;:. for sw-h war:-, Sonth ~\lL"tr;·lia 8 to lOs. ver dny, \Ye,t:ru ... :\_nsi'Ja1i0 10"-. vor da~'' and ~0"\Y ~'m1th y;al('' 9s. l'~;· day. Y0t i;1 Queen'?-

·~:d, \:._· ·yy,;g~.._· JHUCI rn the Sm:!ncrn diYl­

::-ion ouly c~. lK'r da v. That sho\\red the ne:~'lSi'ity ... fc ~~tH.bli:Jliug a st<1ndard rat< of ' a -:;c to be paid by the department for raihYaY con--I-ruction y,,Jrk. There was no douh~ !hat \·,lJr•n colld{tioL-; 1vere Jnado attracti\P a l~·;tt; -ela-s of labonr was ob­L in' d. t'wugh it t:nL-t lw achnitted that during la··t two year:;; the R.>ilway D,_,_ 1 artll'·:mt 11ad no l-H for comp':1..int I'( ;~ard­in';' th0 ela''' of labour thPy obtain0d for 1 ail\r,"y constru( tion ,,~ark. ..:-\. ', rar or bYo a:.t,~- H1~iup-~ ,-;ere Y0ry Lli{~\·~ ~·nt, r_~ "OP,_··' of lhe Hie.·,) rllf n , .. :~vlo. cd '' l're alkg'<'d to be vronc· to drunh •;'110~:-. nut what hf_• v:i~hcd to point <;Ut wa• that -..y}l('l'~' t'llPl' }J ; bvC>n an incrc~a;,p oF the c1istrir:t rate~ c~ \YLt;,Ps for ordinary labourin1:-- \\·ork, 1neu t'n1ploycd on raih".;as .. construct.H,n \YOlk in Xort l1 QucPn:::::land ha(-l h ,,] t.J ,vrike in ordl'c' to 'ecurc that in­Cr{" ~'P. Th0 dt·vartn~c:nt hrrd naid hd lo\Y

a·'· 7:'>. n··r tla- td tlw ~,lPn cn1;110\ d on rail­wa;~ c :rl·:teuct:r;n y .:rk in Xo1~th 'Qu\'C-l.;lancL and it c;:u; not 1ntil after a strike took placo on tl,c Herbr·rtou Range, v;;1ich inYolYed son·o ~J-J 1ne:n, th·--..t th~ de1)arL·n0nt i~:su"•d a gcnet.:.tl ordt::r i11crea·.:\1g the ru!.cs l)aid to n1cn {~:'llpJ~.,,~ecl in thu-!- cla-:.:;; of 1 ~tihra.y ,york: in One cn,,Lc.nd. TLe ra tcs c~:, eel bv that: ordr;r \YC'N' still raid to u::_n C'lll!JlD}'od on_ raih\ <?Y constrnctio~l \York. cxcr.nt on tho }JoU'lt' CnthbPr' a~1el }fount ::\Iuliigan Rail­\Yays, whert>. the n1en had rru.:nt1y ~~ot ar:t <'xtra, lc, a day in order to brine· their pay into line '1-.ith th'' rate p:r{'Yailing· in that mining di, tricL Tlw fact that the der.Mt­u.nnt p.,jd £.~. 1)(>1' day 'iJ ~ll JUl'%TS in the"' 8r,uth -·n rli\"i:;ion of the- etau~ was used by· Jna.ny 0n1ployers an argnnlf\1lt why the:.'v ..... >hould nut pa,· more thm 2.•. per day. Only a Wf'l'k a:.::o tba<-- anpunent v;ns Uf'Ul bv th-1nan:u::r0r of a neT\T Ine::.tv\ Jrks on tho ·nris­banP ·Rh-er. lie \YP1 a~ke.I to incre~~sc th~

[Mr. Fole:y.

rate to 9s. pc;• day for ordinary labouring work, and to 9s. 6d. per day for work don& in deep silos, but he said he conld not do so, as the Railway Department was paying only 8s. a day. T'he men employed on railway construction works had no particular con­cessions granted to them, and they ohould be 11aid fair and reasonable wages.

::Vh. GILDAY (Ithaca) l10ped the Minister "oulc! see his wuy clc ar to adopt the amend· mont, which would obvmt0 a good deal of dissatishction on the part of the railway employees ar the present tinw-thos<l who ,,-cJ'e paid at a very low rate. There wern nwn working in the goo:Je-shed, ~or _7s. a daY, and he dtd not tlunk a farr-mmdt>d p,;.,on would o,ay that 7s. per chy "·as suf!i­C"ient to keep a IH:tH \vith a, \Yife and farnily. In tlw Pnblic \Vorl;·, Dopartmc•nt there' was a rule- nrHJcr ·which a clause ·was ins~_·rt'\d in th<· contract with a successful tend(;··er re­quiring- hiln to pay the ruling rat" of '\ :tges in the district; and. th,,reforr) ihc anH·nd­lncnt of the hon. n1e1nbcr for BttrH ncla W<?. iu:;;t and ,"?ouitable. It rcallv lllC.':Lnt tha.t :.ny raih,·a~; <'mploy;o. should.' not .be r·:;id 1< ..;s than Lhn ruling ra1 f· obtai l!L: In a rliS~ trict for tLx· Salll-0 eb.ss of ,, vrk. ..A few wonrhs ago ~h~ cold ~to,·~\go \\ th·~,:~ in Rmna stepr --v·l'rf' LPlng paFlh~'<.l, ancl there WflS a clqmtatiou of th<'. <';mploycre nncl. the <•m· pJoyf•cs in the painting teade, 'dnch r<~kc·d the RailY De:larLnent to ;wy th:~ san1e weg0~ r>.; l'i"Cl ~h't out in tht, v tgf!S bmn d cl.l·tPl' n1ina tion.

The c.t.E..._ RETARY FO:-. Jtu ,,\,- \YS: \Ye v:£.•rc lHIYi'''~ tlu~ 1 "'!tC's ; &Pt out in our rep;ula-i.ioL•, ..

::,rr. GILDAY: Thn ,,antcL1 In alL r that, and bring ihe -tandfli·c1 in t;hc _ Haihv~y Dc­p:lrhYj"nt up to that of 11nYa' .. ~ <?Jt'1 1 ~0j€1:s. rrlu•rf~ ~~":as ~ahr..tyR a good de J.] O.t chssatls­faction on :-ho i)art of raih\ ~y eHlployef~, and it tle<' duty of hoe1. nunbcrs who l'<'JH'- ~·nnLed consHtucnciL's 1vhcr0 the"\ rf'­eid.'d to Lrinr: thee''' 1 wttN· bnfore tb · ~tini~tPr, and h't hin1 kuo\\~ tL' ano!nnt~~:; that c xistPcl. T'w han. gentleman had _sard ther0 \YerC' a large nuntb( r of l.Hlc·:' .. 10n~'. r-:nch a~ fr<.'f' rail~: a:~ ILl sscs for the rar_ly;a.y \\·ork<'r, and al:o:,o fnr hi-, . fa.n:o.il:.... \Y'"l~at railwav worb'r "·ith '" Tift' avd hnulc could 'a,·ail hi:n.,clf of thP l' i,-ilc,s-r whc·n lw onl.Y r-1.- :'cin_ c1 7s. a d.1y ·:

;rhc s~~·z:r.T-lTIY FOH R '1L"',Y_\_l_S: Tll( re is IJO

r, ilv;<- \YOYker g-.Ati:lg 7s. a day.

:Ylr. GILJJJ, Y: A hr;;c numb," got daY ir tL R,ai1wa;, Df'part~n{l~tt. r.rh0 ,r,

, •:.rc dh lL ·n '' ho \\·auld be' de '.lt ith bv tht aint n<~ ,,·,lt, and lv:o- hoiJPd ~l10 ::\linj-!-Cr would ._. Li· \Yay to ntc ·pt i~.

IIr. P \'\ .\'iC (Jf'l,-/ull) pointc•cl out that tl ·y """ ·rl an Inclnstrial Peace Bill last ~r-ssioJ.~, -..Yhic~l rcbult:Jrd tbt~ \Yagr:~ and con­dit.ioTL~ in C_>t'fH:>'l indu-.,tr_;, , and still the Go' ,~,rnln<'nt ,., ;d thcv \Yon nc~" prepared to L1Y th·· ,,-a s fixed 'by tb· .. -_, bo;.:rcl-., \Yhich tlH; GoY<'nnn._nt hrrd · said Y q·e going to :<ttl<~ ~n indnsL i.-·1 dit--npt{'f.:. Anyone \vho "'i'port· d tlv InJh ,t,cial P,·ace Rill, to bn con·-,i-"h'nt. :r::.--.::1 nr>]JOrt 1his mnendnwnt. 'l'ho inrhl'irial boa!·ds ]J, d negnlat~d the· 'YaQ'e:~ of pick and sL.oY-cl ntz:>n at 9s. a da~Y. Yet th0 Go;·0runwnt !1aid their <'mplo~·""" ;, ho \Y<' ·0 v·orkir-g wi{·hin half a n1i1~ of that 'pot only f .. "- , ch,-. \Yhy Fhould ~riyatc <•J:nployc•r-J be ( "--:111pPil0-rl t() pay n1or!." .LOT the ;;,an1,·, clv . .., of wc;rk than the Governn1ent

Railways Bill. [6 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 827

\H're paying: The taxpayerB of the State had to find tho money, and he thought thev \YOUlci be Willing to pay a fair rate of ;1ages. If_ the condition of tho men working Jll tho Ra1lway Department was made clear. tlwre would not k· 1 pn cpnt of the citizens who would not bc \\ illing to pay them a hnng \Yage. They are not getting a liYing Yn1~e now. ...::\. uwn ,._~ith Sf>Yen childrPn could not kt•cp his family decently on Ss. a day. lion. members oppoFitc had been c. yi~>g out for population, and they \YPI<>

p<•.ying £20 a head to bring people hero. but they seemed to dr:tw the lin<' at a mau lun·ing haJf a dozen childrt>n in this c.mutry. A family of half a clozcn in a cmmtn like this wa • onh· a r<':tsonahle familY·. ThP Sccretarv for :RaihvaYs want(~d t \ nulkl' out that it ,,:as a cri1ne f~r a rnan to lun e half a do70n children.

Tiw :'iE:'RET_n:Y FOR RULW.cYS: Oh, no; that i.~ ~our opinion.

}Ir. P .. :-\1:~?\E: Snn'h·, it ~,.;as _,_wt too mnc11 to alln>:· the hot; .. ,"·if" 3d. a nwal c·ach. v '1ich wo•!ld hr• 2s. per cky That \'l\.Hlld t tke 6· out of th·· 8...;., a:H1 the ~aan could net [:et <:ott age under 12:·. a \'/l'"~k, fy) 1Yh0r<' ·Fa,, he going to get clothr" for hi· fa1uily '; Tlv~ wi\+fl, of a rnu11L~·r of the lc-ngths.~JCH on the lines had to l'('a1_' fo-;Yls, or clo a little :wcdlework: othnrwi ~C till'\' cr nld not {_ xist. Such a '·.+,1te of thinbs "-as

d1, grr-c0 to ':::llY ciyi]~ --d conlt- .unit:\. IIo knP·h· fron1 actual obs,:·rYatio:n that Ina: y of the,-·. v.·opln had to pinch tlwmoel.c- to 'pa~­th( ir W'lY. JIL' holJCd the anlenduJ.'llt \n_,tdd ;Ju carri;·cl.

..\Ir. GILLIES contend. d th,'t th aweml­IL- IH \ .ts a \_'l'' rC,t'" r~~tblc one, and he horwd the J' rini, tc•r would accept it. It did 1:o; jllYolYL' any hf\Y principl·'. uor 1" ~( s­;.;arih· anv g1 J.+ inc ·.:._~;;.c rJf ( Xl'~'nditun·. Th·- \no,-t~r CLd der·ircd that tlH' v. a.gcs lL::tid hy tl11 Ht'-ih'>-a,v· Dq-nn·~Inent , hould llOt be Iu~~- than t:-~o~(' rnliHg in nny particular diH­tritt for tht_' ::-a-1~:~ class of Y,ork. IIo undC'r­··tY 1 tlu,t :\h. Kidston ;.ug-geetPd tho_ t tlw \Yagl''"' Pai(l u 1 dih. a;: C011'tl'L'"'; iJn Rhonld. ~or th(' SouthC'r:n cE .;trict b(' 'lot l{'ss thau 8"0: tl C'enL •I district, ), .. ; and tlw XurthPrn li--}rict, 10·-;. pC'!' eLy. P'J far as tL.-"' Xorth ,' cone,_ r'l('d, pri ,-a to {'Jll­

Illo,:. {'l'S, si1irc c 0UncilP and 1nining 1111-

papi( -;-in fact, nead~- all f·lnploYer-- in the :\"or - ti(l iP1 aYc"a:. <' rutr- uf lC· 1>l'r day, 0 the Railv, ay D<'l -artm< nt t ;wn~-h' tJ1:1.~ 9s. lWi: day ,:-ai3 qui· -=uffici<'nt therf'. R-aiHYa y conr:truetlon \';R,.s not e~t:-;y work, nnd the :__nlonnt of lo:-t time in di-;L. i·'ts "-here thf'l·' w. :; r lwav,- J<jnfall hrtd to Itt• t;}ken ir.._i:o cond; ;r.,tion i, .. c~tinl '.ting th'' f ~u·nings of a rail\Yay y.,-,JrL.:·r. J uU~.;es had laid clown ihe princi!-·lo thnt th0 fir-;t chargo on an~ indu trY ~:1ould Le a r~·J.sonablo \YU~f', m rcas02~,ablt' ~- orkin.c- no~H1itioL'·, f1nd whc1 th:- Go" '"TilT•"Ilt C~,1_1trolled 9,

n1o~1( ;_JOl) Yrhich did not conK' into co,n­peti'"~on \Yith ::'llY oe1cr R0rYicc• it sLu~1hl b·• a11 idlal C'J:..l1 :J")Yfi'.

At 5.in p.m.,

Tlw TE:\IPOR 'd1Y C'IL\IR::\L\X: "Cndur Standing Order Xo. 11, I call upon tlw hon. 11'< "' hcr for Drcme1·. ..\lr. Cribb. to n lieYc nw in the cl1air. ·

:\Ir. C"UB:C tLer('1l!JCTI too], til(' chair.

Mr. GILLIES 0xicndccl th0 •.:ongratula­tions of thP Labour varty to the Tempm·e.r;1· Chairman for the very high and hononrable

position he had attained in the House, and hoped he would carrv out the duties that

deYolnxl.u'ilon him in n fair and [5.30 p.m.] impartial "ay. The reason that

tho :11inistPr and his GoYcrmnent hesitated about accepting the amend~nr,nt \Vas because of their con-cern for the pnvate employer. They were so greatly concerned about "-hat the private mnployDr would say.

The PRE)l!ER: \Vhv would the GovernmDnt be concerned if, as vou sav che priYatc Dln­

ployor pay::> 1noro "no\v? "' You arc' n1ost illogical.

Mr. G [LLIES: If the Gowrmnent paid n1orP \vage~, tht·n the vi~i\- ate employer""~"' ould havo to pay n1ore-.

The l'RDUER: ::\loet illogical. Try again.

Mr. GILLIES; The Raih.-ay Department and all the other Govc;rmnent department" should be ideal employ0ro. and, as the anu,ndinent as a reasonuble one, it should be acct·ptccl lY. the Minister. The Minister spoke about tlw priYilcgc' enjoyed by tho ;·ailway \YOrkers. He (::Vlr. Gillies) did not ask fur any privilegts at all-all he a'·ki·d fu1.· ·was justice. .Anything that ''as given to the men in addition to tilc·ir \Yages should not be regarded a" a pri 1 ilcg;e, but. as a right. I-Ioliday·';, free cnrriag-o of prov1sron~.' and SHch like thimc; all part of man s pay, nnd the qu< ·".tion vrivil{•ge did not como in at all.

JVIr. l(E6SJ1~LL (J>.,rf eurtis): rrho nnend­lll· ·1t '· ..-~ Olll' that cYerv ho::.1. rneu1ber n1u::;t look on with a. good" deal of sympathy, because ii had tlw appearaucc of doing some thing· in favour of the workii1g 1nan, and <'Ycrv member Df the Chamber wa _ in i:wour of illcl'easing the v. ages of eyery v·orking n1an in the State. In the nast t" o years the age) in ti1r H:.1ihv.1y I5ep;n·tnlent had b.,Bn increa ·i l b c:o,, on £20!J,OOO. If that sOrt of thing vv·a·· to ~') on, ·what was going to happen to the' railways of Queensland': \Yhat about the primary producers and the· increased fare>- and ft, ighi < they would haYe i o pay? On 1 hP gTonnds o~. fairrH.A• ·· alonv he oLjr~tNl to Jl·'"' these thmg.> on to th-,, alreadv ov<•rburd ned man em the land. It was all vc · y -,,ell for mt·'1lLPu to gd up o,nd talk a 1;out J·hc incre'"'~ in wages. bm cconomicalh the dtate could not ftaml it. \Yhile he kn."W i~ would be unpopuhr in certain parts of Qul'ensland t•> Yot3 against the am<·ndnll'nt, still, he 0\' Pd a duty to Qneer .. ;Lnd and to himp,elf as a politician, and hi" dut,; was f.,) cu>;t' his vot.r~ againsL it. The facts brc:t::,ht out in tlw c1ebate t>ro\-ed i·o ~UP rr5";'3onahlv-n1ind~d 1nan that the e:nplo)"{'c;, of the lt'ailwa~· Dep;dment '''ere far L\·.-tt0r than tho:;,q in priYato e:n Plov in Q-u~en.·J·.~ncl. \Yln 1-Y,·.'J that·: rrhe )fn"li:­tcr to}d i.hcn1 th-1t ·(\Y<'r\' ,-:--~ek ho rcr--ived ,,_ppE "ationr from men ·in priYatn employ wan tin:; to join the Raih' ay D":'ar~ment. anrl the Ministu- ne.-er said ~nything 1_11 th• IIouoo \Yithout ~;>.~ing i+ 1nu,hn • coL~Idcra­tion first. \Valkerd Limit0d \\as looked upon as a good institutior, in Qui ••n -land, yet the ctnploveP', of that finn \Yere anxious to join th3 R.~ilv.av Department. Thut shov, :cl they 1nust gL\t better pay and hirrher privil~~~;<;'"' in the GoYPrnm<'nt than in 1lrivato employ. The raih--av n1en in hi_") electorate had no desire to lt.tYe the scrviro, although natur­ally they de oirecl to get an incrroase in thei1· wages.

Mr. HrxH.\1!: How would you like to liv<" on 7s. a d•y?

21h. Kessell.]

:828 Hailways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

:.\Jr. KESSELL: Xo married man in the Hailway Department was asked to liYe on 7s. a day, <o it was np use making ridicu­lons statements like that. The hon. member for Mitchell told a lot of fairv tales about 1nrn having no n1oncy for pealluts or fruit. {Laughtm·.) They should discuss the matter seriously, and approach it apart from all 1 •arty prejudice. Han. members asked for increasPs in the Railway Department, the Edu~ation Department, and tho Home De­partment, but who had to fmanc·• the State?

Mr. HcXH.UI: The people.

:VIr. KESSELL: That »as bunkum. Mem­bers opposite talked about the people· so that they magnified the pcople into a deitv. It "·as the members sitting on tlw Treasm:v llench who had to fmance the Stat~. (Oppo­sition laughter.) Members opposite alwavs laughed at finanC•\ but they laughed on the ·uther side of their faces when their pro­posed incrcaso of .£200 was bumped out the i>ther day. :Members were directors of the affairs of the State, and it was their duty to make both ends meet. How could thev increa~~ taxation to 1nert increased \Yagcs ill the Railway Department?

Mr. Huxnnr : Higher income tax. Mr. KESSELL: 'l'hat interjection was

typical. ::Yiembers opposite only wanted to .tax one clacs. The Rwilway Commissioner was in charge of tho railways, and both Houseo of Parliament handed oYer b him the nower to control tho affairs of the Rail­way- Department. If, for party' purposes, the House imposed such a resolution on the Commissioner, it would take the manage1nent of the railwavs quite out of his hands. The Queensland Comminioner stood out as one "i th~ ablest Commissioners in Australia.

:ilr. FIHELLY: Ho must ha..-e gin>n you something.

Mr. KESSELL: That remark was typical of han. member oppositn; tlwy had no idea of speaking well of anyone unlhs the:: re­ceived some benefit from him. The Com­missioner had proved that he was one too many for tho-e who led the tramways strike, lJerause the railway men knew him and trusted him, and wci1t back to work when he ·'•poke to them. Thev expected the Com­missioner to make the railways pay, and thev should not tie his handc. If th0 ulotion wer'a .passed, it would mean increased railwav freights which the man on the land would have to pay. \Vould members opposite vvte for that?

OPPOSITION J\iE~BERS: No, no! :\ir. KESSELL: Members opposite \YO~lld

-only 1 oto for something that would giyo them Yates. They were politi. ,lly incapable of casting a vote which had no benefit for them. (Opposition laughter.) It would be ruinous to Que" ndand to further increase the fares and freights. The various Govern­ment departments in Quccmshnd wore second to none ·in Australia so far as their finances permitted, and in two years they had to meet the· £15,000,000 conversion loan. Th<'v also wanted more mon0y for railway develop­ment :mel he hopc ,J members would tak<:> a statrsmanlike view of the amendment a.nd vote it ouL

Mr. HAMILTO~ (Gregory): ThP han. member for Port Curtis was posing as the apologist for ·tho Government, and everv ocr-asian when he aro'e, he had something nasty to say about members of the Oppc.si­tion. The han. member indulged in a chC>ap

r .ilfr. ]{ essell.

sneer at the expense of the hon. member for Mitchell, because he was talking about tho hardships with which the railway m:'n in the IV estern districts had to contend, while at the same time they were bringing ~Ip lar_ge families on small wao-es. Mr. Justice lhg­gins told them that e';·ery man had a. right to have a wage that would enable hmi to bring up and educate his family prope~ly, and at the same time make some ]Hovrswn for a rainv daY· and, as the hon. member for Mitchell ,.;a;,t€a to point out, it was illl]lOssiblc for men to do that v,nd rear hrge families on the wages they were gettmg. It was von nice to listen to han. mombers­C"·]lecially ·the one \vho had last opolwn­when it was proposed to give 3d. or 6d. or Is a clav more to some of the poorer' paiCl m~n. It" was onlv a short time ago that there had been a reorganisation of the whole service, and a lot of additional posi~iom wer<' created carr-rino- Yery large salari~'­ch'puty commissioner~ and deputy this and deputy that-but at that time no one heard a word fr,om the han. gentlc1nan about finance. Only last year, an hon. gen_tleman was to receive £1,000 for tho sprnces he had rcnclorod to the State. But there was not one word from han. members opposite as to the finance and loans falling due then. That it would mean a little more taxation of tho whole community was no reason why anv members of the community should have to "live on what -was not a fair li Ying wage. They knew that thoro W0':'e very 1nany men on tho railway construction \York» who vvcre Yery poorly paid, and "ith them it \LIS not a quostion of getting lOs. a clay through­out the year if that was their wage. If It was wC't • we~thor, thoy did no work. and it was a ca'~e of "no 'vork, no pay," bH:~ause the work was intermittent. Tlwn there w&s no rea"on \1 hy tl,~y should put the 0xtra taxation, if any \\·oro needed. on thf' mau on the land. TheY should put it vn ·the In:nd monopolist. ~l lot of suoh men were holdmg land for speculative purpo,•cs~~rHl the han. momber was one of them-and those \vcre the HWn on whom he \Yould put it.

Mr. KEsSELL: You haYe no right to bring in my private affair·, here.

Mr. IIAMILTOX: The han. member some­tiines n1adc somo Y8ry na~ty reflections Gn Oppositio•1. members.

Mr. KESSELL: )Jot on their pri,-ate affairs .

Mr. HA:\!ILTOl'\: lie W"3 heartily in support of tho amendment. :\Iembers on tho other side v;ould not gd up and take l!P tho cudgels on behalf of the<o poorly-_Pmcl tnen when their \.VUg'f'S. \V~:. ~"O und-8r rcvle"\v:

thev had not heard ""Y hon. Inomber on the. Gowrnm0nt -.ide do that, exce.pt the han. member for \Vinc!Dr. But when it came to consid r th' incr•_ tu,''S in thr· higher paul branch, s, would they see the same hon. gentJe1nea ri<e and 111ake the. ",1 rne Cl~Y. td

thE''' did when it wa '· a questwn of gn·mg an ·0~tra 3d. or 6d. or 1" to nH'll w}w wer'--' doino- some of the harde•t work in the Stete? The ''bon. memb.'r for Ithaca had pointed out that there WNC mr .1 in th, goods-c.hed \vorkinc; for 7c. 6d. a day.

The SECRET.\RY FOR RAILWAYS: That is not tru0.

::\1r. HAMILTON: If it were trw'. th. n it ".;.s a starvation wage. He beli(•ved that casual 0mploymont should alw,tys be better ]Jaid than pNmanent employment. because in the fornwr case the men mig·ht be here to-day and discharged to-morrow.

Ra·ilways Bill. (6 AUGUST,] Railways B1ll. 829-

Mr. BOOKER : In dealing; with this ques­tion he might say that he wao no advocate of low wages. Low wagP.s were good for neither the public service nor private service. But he intended to oppose the amendment, for some very valid reasons, and the most valid was ways and means. When listening with great attention to the comments of his friends on the other sidEL it always appealed to him that they were delightfully incon­sistent. Take, for instance, t·he discussion that occupied the whole of a recent Thurs­day afternoon when the hon. member for Maranoa raised the que,tion of a reduction in railway freights and fares. That, if carried out, would naturally m~an a very serious deficit on the operations of the rail­way', and then, following that-so delight­fully inconsistent were they--cume the amend­ment of the hon. member for Buranda that they should increase wages. It was much harder to find the m0ans to do certain things than to talk about them. Their friends opposite had been talking about this proposal in a Yery delightful way, but tlw ::Vlini•.ter for Railways had interjected that (he present A·dministration l1ad raised wages t•J the railway nwn by £147,000. and he found also that it was not so many years ago when the daily wage of the railway worker wa~ 6s. 6d. To-day it was 8s., 9s., and lOs. At the same time he ;a.id emphatically that there \vere railway 1nen receiving e, wage that was not creditable to tho service. He would quote one case of the junior cleaners, men from twenty-four to twenty-five years of ag{', who were rcceiYing the Inunificent v;ago of 5s. per day. That was a casP 111 which members of Parliament should cn­deaYour to have an anomaly adjusted so that these men would get "' better return for their labour. Ho l1eld that the wage of those men should be at ]past 7s. per day. That was a fair wage for the work done, but thoro mig·ht be some departmental rPason for keep­ing them on the lower plano. He said omch should not be, but perhaps that was a matter wl1ich might be explained by tho Minister when h0 replied. Generally speak­ing, .applications for work in the Railway Department were out of all proportion to the billets available. That did not indicate to the taxpayer that the railway service was a bad service to get into. Th~ majority of young men when they left school were anxious to get into the public service, and the Pr<'mier had stated that, exclusive of the Federal service, one in eYery seY•'nteen of fhc adult population was in the public &erYice. From time to time they heard from hon. members oppositn condemnations of private enterprise. He had listened very cardn1ly to tlw deputy leadN of tho Labour nartY, ·who \Vas saving in a genere.,l way that· private ent<er])risc, more particularly in the Korth, was paying more than the GoYomment. Well, that was to the credit of privatc enterpri;e. Private enterprise wanter! the yerv be•.t men-men first ·.r]w were willinp: t,;: work, who were loyal to their employ<'rS, who were going to give the best that was in them. Th<>reforo, priYate entcrpris.r, in thD 111ajority of {'.lSCs, was always p.·: 1>;,red to go one better than a 5ocialist~' {'UtC'rnrise. ·Juch as our railw.ay lmsineH. That WfiS one re'l.son why private Bnt·'rpri ,, iP the North might pay a better ·wago t.han the Railway Con1missioner. One hon. member who supported the amendment u&ed tlH· argument that the manager of the Australian :Meat Export Company refused

to give his men an incn'a-se of "ages be­canso the Hailway Department were not paying more. That came dow~ ~o "!Ohe ordinary argument of oupply and demand. They knew, as a matter of fact, that men were most anxious to go on to those works, and men had asked him to use his influence to get them jobs there. And the majority of them were sati.sfied to go on at tho wage offered. He quite understood what the real trouble was at Bulimba. Over 1,000 men were employed ther·e, but there was ,uch a living circumstance as an agitator, and that appeared to him a fine field to raise tho question of higher wages. The Government, and the men behind it, were just as anxious to gin' to the railway workei'S th<' best wages and the best conditions t'hat the funds of the Government would allow as were hon. members opposite. There were no men in that House who would condemn the Ad­ministration more than hon. members oppo­sit<', if, at the end of the current year, there was a deficit. What a glorious thing it would be to go on to the hustings eighteen months hence and say the GoYernment had a d .. ficit, and decry them for bad manag~'­ment and maladministration !

At 7 p.m., :Vlr. STODART, Chairman of Committees,

took tho chair.

Mr. BOOKEH, resuming his speech, said that if this amendment was carried, and tho increased pa v to rail wa v servants that it necessitated brought abo,'lt a deficit at tho end of the financial ,Year, members of the Opposition would tell the electors of tho State that the Government w~re not able to carrv ·on the busine,s of £he countrY r>ro)wl'lj, and had shown their incompetenc:v by not being able to balance their accounts. 'l'he member' who had advocated tho amend­ment hacl discussed it without a due sensE' of the resnonsibilitv dmolving upon thosi:> who had to conduct the business of the State. He desir~d to give to the serYants of tho· State the Yery best conditions as to remu­neration .and employment that it was pos­sible to give them, Lut he recognised that their efforts in this direction must be limited by the state of the finances. There were cir­cumstances which would ju.stify tho Govern­ment in spending a largE' sum of money in his electoratE>, and probably each membe>' could say the same with n•gard to his own particular constituency, but their desires for <'xpcnditurP on public work in '.nious parts of the State wen• limited and controlled by tho amount at the disposal of the T1·easurer. 'l'heir experience in tho past had shown that the GoYcrnnwnt wero determined to make the conditions of public sen·ants bdter as tho prosperity of tht> State increased. In­crcac·t'.• had beE>n given to public servants in !he past, and he was quite satisfied that as soon as the Govf'rnment could thPil' way to give the railway employees better ·wages than they \vere receiving at present, they would incr• ase thc·ir ''age~. \Vhen the department readjusted the payments of .th0 railw.tv staf£, he thought that the c!Pneal ,taff wc·re lost sight of to some exten\.

The SEcl1ETARY FOR Rur.wAYb: Oh, no.

Mr. BOOKER: He understood that they ''ere lost sight of to some extent, and he hopr·d that when the next readjustment of salaries took place, the claims of tho5e officers would receive proper consid!'ralion. I-Ie knew of men who were on the £140 odd

Mr. Booker.]

830 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways B1.Zl.

mark, and tht·y were probably thirty-five or forty years of age, and had· be,n fifteen, six­teen, or .seventeen years in the sen.-ice.

The bell indicated that the hon. momb0r's tim!l had expired.

Mr. HGXHAM (Bw·anda) Faid ho was surprised .to hear the hon. member for \Vide Bay speak in the strain he had done, as there was no desire on his part to embarrass the Government in anv wav. There was not the least intention in ~ubm"itting the amend­ment to do anything but thn right thing by the men employed in the railway service. :Members drew very fine distinctions between their needs and t'he needs of people who

-earned their living by their bone and sinew. Whilst tho hon. member for Wide Bay was speaking, ho could not help thinking that if members would only try to put themselves in the place of the men whose conditions of <•mployment they were discnssing, and recog­nise their needs and the needs of their wives and children, they would S)Jeak in a, very different tone. Tlw needs of the men who worked for the Governrnent in the Railway Department and the n0eds of other men who toiled and moiled in the sun wero just as great as thr needs of an, member of the House, and the men in the raih' ay service were not getting a fair and straight go from the Government. He hoped that the :Minis­ter would reconsider the matter, and try to put those men who were doing hard work and receiving poor rmnuneration in a very much better position than they WC're at the present time~in at least as good a position as men who were doing similar work for private employers and who W<'rp getting ls. to ls. 3d. a day more for their labour than was paid to r«ilway employees.

The SECRI~TARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: In view of certain statements which had been made in the cour_;;e of the discussio11, he should like to mention some of the wages .actually paid by tb,. department. It had been stated on two or three occasions that men working in the shops and sheds were paid onlv 7s. a dav. Regulation 55 of the Staff Regulations p"rovidrcl that labourers in shops and sheds in the Southern division should .Joe paid 7s. 6d. per day, in th!' Centrn.l divi­sion Ss. per day, and in the Northern divi­sion Ss. 6d. per dav. As a matter of fact, four vears ago those men were paid only 5s. 6d". a dav, and they had since got four increases of "6d. a, day, which brought thC> ir remuneration up to 7s. 6d., and not 7s. per -dav as had he<>n all0~·ed. Tho bon. member fm: Mundingburra, Mated that carpenters in the Townsville work,hops re;;0ivecl only 9s. per day. The fact was that they were pa,id lls. 3d. and in some cases 12s. per day. The bon. member for \Vide Bav said that junior cleaners got 5s. a day. ·"Under the regulations, only youths between sixteen and nineteen years of age ·were eligible . for a, p­point-ment "'' junior clcanE,rs, and In their first vear--that was when they were sixteen Y' :•rs" of age~they got 2s. 9d. ]l<!r day. in the So:<thern diYision~h" wcs not 'peaking of tho nthcJ· diYi.,ions~rising in the sixth vea~ to 5'. 6d. per dav, or £1 13s. per week. fie '."ould point out t"hc,t the junior cleane:rs not only received wages from the start, but WPrc given fe.cilitios for learning a trade and making th 'mselves competent to becon.,_o locc.;.-otive cngine-dri;-ers. The bon. mcr·n­loer for Wide Bay further stated that the clerical staff had been overlooked when the T<'gulations were remodelled. As a matter

[.i!fr. Booker

of fact, apprentice clerks, \vho were admitted to the service at the age of from fifteen to seventeen Years, started at ,£42 per annum and rose in the fourth year to _£78 per annum. \Yhen they completed thmr . four·th vear, apprentice clerks, or clerks m the fourth class, on reachi~g the age of twenty­mw vuar:o, would receiVe a salary of ~110 per ,i.nnum. Last year they very. matenall~· improved the condition of the clencal 1?1·ancn o·Emerallv. as \Yell as otlwr branchee m the ~cn·ice. "·They rose by £10 increases en;ry vear to £150 a year, so that a_.n apprentlcD Clf\rk at twenty-one years of age, ~ven although he had not sen·ed the whole of his time, mmt get £110 a year, and he then rose in four years to £150.

Mr. 'l'HEODOEE: IV ill you sav why Y?U are paying less than t~e othl'l' .States, m the matter of mFn worlnng on railway construc­tion?

The SEt;RETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They were paying in thi; State the ratD of wagDs arranged for two or threG yc~ns ago~Ss., 9s., and lOs. a, day~and. he qu~:trf!d whether that was less than was being p_aid m the other States. He was not at all certam that tho railway men in tJ:e other States were paid bett-er wages, ta,lnng the :'·hole o_f the "en·ico, than what werG bmr:g pmd m Queensland. Of course, certam Items could be picked out.

Mr. KIRWAX: Is not 7s. 6d. lo\ver than in anv other State?

'I'h,; SECRETARY FOR RA~LWAYS: But it was materially better than 1t w:cs two years a"o. \Yhen tho hon. member quoted li"urcs ~from .. Knibbs " for last year, he i;te.riected that those figure's were not alto­gothe'r correct. As far as he could f?l:~~v the hon. member, who was readmg __ qmcLy, in sorne instancPS the figu~es v;..~ero 3s. a. ,,·eek less than what was pm_d here. As he had stated, he did not sec lus way cl_ear to accept the amendi~ei_It, because he did 11ot think the Comnnss10ner should . bo Jmb­serYient to any ou!'ide . bod! which fixed wages. The Adnumstrahon and th~ Co~­missionN could do that~the wage> board was in this Chamber.

JVlr. KmWAN: You won't give us a say .

The SECRET.~RY FOR RAILWAYS: In this C\msolidation Bill, han. members wore having a big say, ar:d o\ery year, w1tll the exception of one, smce he . ha_d been Minister, there had been a very b1g mcre.ase on the Estimates. They had been debatmg this cla usc for four hours, and unless hon. members brought forward n:.w. _fads, he hoped they would come to a mvis10n.

Mr. HL"l\'TER said the only thing whic-h had come out of the dt>batc, so far was that the railv, ay men harl the comfort of _know­ing that things were getting better m the department thaE they werP, but there could be no question that they were not as goool a• thev were in the other States. The per­centage of \Yorking exp.enses to gross~ earn­ings on railways was giYen on p,age t05 of the " Commonwealth Yt'ar Book._ He recog­nised that the Queensland ~aiiways werJ more expensive to run than m a,ny of the other States.

The 8ECRFTARY FOR RAILWAYS: There are four raih1·ay centres-you should be thank­ful for de~entralisation.

Mr. HUNTER : They went out into scat­tered communities, where thc:re was a smaller

Ra/lways Bill. [G AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 831

:population. Those were all contributing factors to expense in the cost of administra­tion; and yet when they compared the aver­age cost of working expenses with the gross •earnings of tho railways, Queensland ''as lower than any of the other States. The per<'entago of working expenses to gross earnings in 1911-12 were as follows :-.:"<ow South Wales, 64.23 per cent. ; Victoria, 65.95 per cent. ; (~ueensland, 63.22 per cent. ; South Australia, 63.46 per cent.

The SECRET.\RY FOR R.UL\1 AY~: 61.8 per •cent.

Mr. HUNTER: That was explained in the footnote. In 'V estern Australia it was 71.31 per cent. ; and Tasmania 71.71 per ·cent. ; tho a veragc for the Commonwealth being 65.29 per cent. \Vh;~ was the Queens­land system being worked so much cheaper! It was simply by paying the mel!. engaged -on the railways le,. than what was being jlaid in the other i::itates, and charging higher freights. The hon. member for Wide Bay Faid thPro was a strange inconsistencv in

·Opposition members coming down one aftor­uoon and asking for reduced raihvay freights, and on another afternoon asking for in­creased charges on the railwav. Tho conclu­,ion from the argument of th'e hon. member \}::'s that, if the railwavs were not paying, 1he way to work them >Yas to reduce the wagBs; but he held that that was totally wrong. The railwa~·s were not always sent out with the idea of being paying concerns, but to op~n up the country. They frequently ]Jassed railway.··· knowmg that tlwv were not _going to pay.

Mr. BooKER : 'l'hey muKt be a burden.

Mr. HUNTER; The railways had always been a burden, and the general taxpayer should be asked to pay for them. It was wrong to say that because the railways were not paying, the 1·ight thing to do was to force up the freights on the man who used th<e railway, or to reduce th0 pay of the men who worked them.

The bell indicated that portion of the l10n. member's time had expired.

Mr. HUNTER: The Government should face the thing properly, but they were taking tl)e easy way out of the difficulty-the easy way was to cut ·wages and raise freights.

rrhe PREMIER: V\~c haYe given incre"'"lL~, of £100,000 a year in the Railway Department alone in the last two years.

Mr. HUNTER: It >vould only be doing a fair thing to accept the 'amendment, and give the men who were employed on tho raih, "'Y fair wag<··'; then th<' Hon. the 1!inistcr would be quite justified in reducing fn~ights. and Y'lakl' tlw general taxpaver b, ar any losses. ~Ir. GRAYSON (Cunninglwrn): Judging

from the tone of the debate, om' would be inclined to think that the only friends of the railway employees ·were sitting on the Ovposition side, but when the Labour part0 a f-cw years ago had control of the then t!rovernment he did not !war anv of thesP Bpeeoheo when they could have .c·ot the wages of the railv ay employee, incrLased.

Mr. BARBER: Yes, from the Labour sec­tion--the pure Liberal crowd did not.

l\Ir. GR ·'!. YSON: While he had been a member he had nenlr opposed a vote to increase the wnges of tl1e railway employees.

A few weeks ago the hon. member for Maranoa tabled a motion to reduce the rates from Brisbane on the Western line.

Mr. Ht:XTER: All lincp. I will do that again.

An Hoxot:R.IBLE ::YlEJfBER: The Roma line. .Ylr. IIuxTER: The whole of the lines. Mr. GRA YSO.i'<: The hon. gentleman was

directing the whole of his attention to the Yl estern line.

:\1r. II'CKTER rose to a point of order. The hon. member for Cunningham stated that he moved a resolution to reduce rail­way freights on the Western line. He askod the Chairman if that was correct? His motion applied to the ruduction of freight' on the whole system.

OPPOSITION ::VlE:UBERS: Hear, h,-ar! }fr. GHAYSOK: What he had said was

that the motion the .lwn. member tabled applied to a re-duction of the railway freights on the Roma line.

::'.Ir. HUNTER asked the Chairman if th, hon. mernb<'r "as quoting him correctly? He denied the statement, because his motion would have had effect on the whole of the railways of the State. He did not except the Roma line, but he did not specify it.

Mr. GRAYSO::'\: That was exactly his contention. The hon. member was bearing out his argument entirely. (Laughter.)

Mr. HUKTER: Oh! You are a wriggler.

;\Ir. GRA YSO::\: \YllC'n he wa" a, great a pasbnash\r in ·wrigg·Iing as the hon. ITiellt-

bcr, he would be an expert at the game. It was not so long ago when

[7.30 p.m.] the railway lengthsmcn were getting only 6s. 11 day, but the

present Government bettered their conditions and were now paying them 7s. 6d. a day.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 8s. a day.

:Mr. GRAYSON: The Government appro­priated £100,000 a ;~·ear for the last two years to provide incr<'as"" for the railv, ay em­ployees, and if tlw motion pro)JOsed by _the hon. member for Maranoa had bN•n earned, it would have meant a loss of revenue to the railways of £100.000. How would that leakag<' be made up?

The SECRETARY FOR HAlLWAYS: They would impose a land tax on the Darling Downs.

:VIr. Hr;,.;•rER: Incn~ase the income tax.

Mr. GRAYSON: He would prefer to see an increase in tlw inco1ne tax rather than have a land tax. If the financial PxigenciPs of the State would permit of it, the present Government would inmrove the conditions of the railway employees, and there was not a member sitting behind tho Govern­ment who would he opposed to doing that.

Mr. HUNTER: Tau >vill have an oppor­tunity of voting on it prc,euily.

:VIr. GRA YSO.i'<: If there happened to be a deficit at the end of the financial year, 1nembers opposite would propose a land tax on the primary producers of tlw State to make up that deficit.

0PPOSITIOK :;\lL:UBERS: No, no !

Mr. GR_'l.YSON: There was no one more opposed to a land tax than the hon. member for Maranoa, only he was not game to f'::ty so. If the Labour party got into power, hon. 1nembers would not hear so much about

!lfr. Grayson.]

832 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bdl.

raising the wages of the working man. There were two Labour Governments in Australia, and how did they stand financially? The Kew South \Vales Government wound up the year with a dpficit of £1,250,000, and the \\'estern Australian Government also had a large deficit, while there wore any amount of unemployed in both States. 'l'hat was what they could expect if the Labom· Govern­ment occupied the Treasury bPnche.; in Quf'ensland.

The CHAIR::'IIAN: Order !

::Yir. GR\YSON: He remembered the time when gatekeepers received only 5s. a week in Queensland when they had a Labour Government in power. They had to attend to the gates and look after the sidings, and now they were receiving lOs. a week.

::Vlr. CoYNL: \Vero the Labour party ewn· in power in Queensland 'I

Mr. GRAYSON: They wore partially in power; the hon. member for Fortitude Y alley could have turned the Government out at any timE'.

Mr. FIHELLY: \Vorc you supporting that Labour Government?

Mr. GRAYSON: I was. (Loud laughter.) He did not believe in taking the power out of the Railway Commissioner's hands. Mr. Bvans was one of the abk't Commissioners in .. \ustralia, and was sympathetic to hi•; employees, and they should leave all railway departmental matters in his hands.

::\h. LARCOMBE: The hon. member for Cunningham had taken advantage of the amendment to make an attack on the Labour partv. That v1as characteristie of members opposite The hon. member had said that the Labour party always posed as the friends of the railway men, but when they had the power they would prove it. In New South \Vales the Labour party passed an Industrial _\rbitration Act embracing the very prin­ciples embodied in the amendment of the hon. member for Buranda.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL \YAYS: Thcv have regretted it ever since.

Mr. LARCOMBE: They had clone nothing of the kind. In New South \Val<•• the Government paid the same rate as private employers paid for similar class of »or k in the same district. The two Labour Go­vernments in Australia-those in New South \Vales and \Y c:~tern Australia-granted full political rights to railway employees, while the CommonwPalth Labour Government granted the sanw rights to Commonwealth employe.·'!. The hon. member for Cunning·­ham ba,ed his argument upon a misconcep­tion when he oaicl that if the motion which the hon. member f•Jr JYfar"JCoa had moved the other dav were carried it would have resulted in a 'loss of railway earnings. As a matte1· of fact, it had been proved in all parts of 'he worlrl that a reduction in fares :tnd fr0ights actually meant an increase in rovenur.

Mr. STEVENS (Rose1L'oocl) opposed the amendment. The hon. member foT Buranda intended to rais·o the wag>•s of railway em­plovees without taking away their privi­leges, and, no doubt, the railway employees would be agr~:ebalo to that. but no Govern­ment had a right to tax part of the people of the State in order to provide excep­tional!:. good conditions for a c-·rtain. clas~, and that was what tht>y ·would be domg lf

[M1., Grayson.

they increased the wages of railway men without taking away their privileges. If the increase in wages carried with it the re· moval of the privileg-es which the railway men enjoy at the present time, he was satis­fied that the railway men themselves would not thank any Government for giving them an increase on those terms. That was proved bv the £act that men were constantly en­d~avouring to get Government employment in the railway workshops, although they were earning a higher rate for wages out­side. The reason was both plain and clear. The men knew that in that employment they had a constant job and a.bo that the priv1-leg0s far outweigh any little extra amount they might receive outsidE'.

Mr. MAY (Flinders) said he had had some experience in regard to railway works in ·a district he represented, and he thought tho Government should set themselves out to pay as high a r,tte of wage as was paid: by private employees, whieh was not the case. General labourers in the mining dis­b·icts, in his electorate, were getting lls. 6d. a day, while on the railway works they were only getting lOs. .a da.y. The department stated that the regulatiOns set out a hard­and-fast rule that they must pay 8s., 9s., and lOs. a day in the South, ('entrE'. and North rc"pectively. Why could they not create an additional North-west district whero the men could receive lls. 6d. a day? The further one went from the coast, the dearer the living became, and the Government would get over part of the difficulty, and meet certain of the requirements, if they were t<Y establish a special North-west district to apply to those districts in which railways we1·e being built, and also to all Western districts. He hoped the Minister would acc~pt the amendment, as it was a very reasonabl<:> one. Naturally, if the men got that increase, which the private employe:v­was paying, they would get better worl< out of the men than possibly they were. getting now. They would work with greater zeal, which would redound to the benefit of the Govcrnmont and to the rail ways in general.

Mr. FIHELLY: There seemed to be undue­haste to get this clause throug·l1, and h& would like to calm the troubled feelings o'f the members sitting on the Treasury bench as they were getting somewhat impatient. He did not know whether they wanted mem­bers of the Committee to stultify themselves and allow an important clause of this nature to pas' through without proper discussion, or not. Th0 proposal was so antagonistio to their desires, and members of the Opposi­tion had strBssed that fact and emphasised it so freely and so well, that he fancied that was the rc<lson there as such undue hast<, which he deprecated. For instance, they had the Treasurer the other clay issuing money-boxes and rulers in connection with his advertising pl'Opaganda. on behalf of the Sayingc Bank. If the Government did not pay the railway men an adequate salary, hew could ho expect thooe money-boxes to be filled? If they were going to 1dfirm the principle of not paying the rail Yay men th!l same rate of wages that the outside employeJl was compellocl to pay, then the children of those railway men would have no use fo;o those money-boxee, .and tho fine scheme of the hon. gentleman would simply drop tp the ground. He was glad the Committee had spent a little time on this particular clauM~

Railways Bill. [6 AuGusT.] Railways B~ll.

becaus<'l they wanted to emphasise the fact that what was good enough for a private individud should be good cnuugh for the Government, and that when they enforced a certain minimum rate of was;e out,.id", they Jhould also enforce that wage inside. To blk about security of tenure and privi­leg<'9 was so much nonsense. The poor un­fortunate fDllow signed on in the morning and signc d off in th" aft.?rnoon, after being browh<,aten- all day by a person clothod in a little a~nl1ority, ;..:nd t}J·.·~l ho got a pass oncd a J.. :_,r. \Vhat ,~, pri·vilc·?. [ EYl:l1 Badger's men had their free· pasc~s every day. The privilege '' of such LL s::_nall quantity t~1.at it cou:d hardly be s- ·c:n th-·ough "' micro­ccopo. He hcp· :J th 1t L •• nh r' ,. -oul0. )· into the matter and thrash it out propc<1·l;,, as so far the:;· h<Vd only scratch< J the out­side. He hoped r,rcmcers wouk! elaborate thei1· '"rgu •Huts and g·-~ do•.,n to the 1von1en-the l\1ihvay n_;<"n's wives who had to keep their families on ihe mism·able pay of their husbands. He hoped that that wculd be considered, anrl that the Minister would agr<e to this very rea.-onaLl~ amendment.

Mr. PAYNE thought the han. 11:ember for M<tranc., put the whole qr•.stion in " nut­shell when hr- said thac om· railway \Y ~ nn had cost lr>ss to construe'. "'nd maintain than any other railway ss•,tcm in the Common­wenlth.

The SECi:'~TARY ; OR RAILWAYS: That is rot so.

Mr. P A YNF:: The•· al " charged hi"hor ratos in fr0~rrh~ j and far''S.

The SE,'L2TARY FOR R.ULWAXd: That also is not correct.

Mr. PAYNE : It was <tbscJlutely true, according to "Knibbs." Surely to goodness t!1e Qu">'L• 1 :.11.1 :.,il; .,vs should pay u"dor those ci1 !'Uhlst:U1CC'". IIG thought, in all con ,CJim.cc, thze Sr <Cl'·:tary for Rail was, lud h.'J m·ou:'h proof that a nu':lbor o£ his good men, h .. rd workers, v;orc not getting sufli­cie;_lt to rca_:· ?, f::nnily on in dccf- ncy, and smdy th<c Gave nmont ought to see that th•oy got ihat. Why ~hould they not pay the satne as a privatr' indiyidual? If t\e tux­p:cyers of QuQ0noland were not propar<'d t:J do that, then thp statutes y, hich rom­pell0<l priv11t0 c.nployt ,, to p:,:y more th •n the Shtc y, c~ compelled to l'ay should be YTipc.~ out. \Yhy Dhould rnih. ay ninn in his e~1 nrat-e, in 114 d0grc)s in t~1e shadf':, work for less wagt than men in New South yr,-ales, in a 1nore con~enial c1i1natc, ard "here th.e cost of livin~ was k '? Ho said, as be '-J.id b ,fore, that he could bring !11"D to the b''.r of the F G'!se v:l-o \'I' ere worki·,,g on the railY :. v:·, and y~ho l~i~.·l not t suffi­<'lont : ') ke~"·D th0iv 'vivf's a.nd f 1r~~lie in dec'·'1c c: ,m;·~rt. \Vh•· r: id han. F~ntle''h n '~··;~1' to sidc:.te~ t:1j:, qu(_tion, and s-~.~­with a snPE · -th · c ho (illr. Payre) ,.,_ d

sin·:.l~·~e- out L~ . P ·J he Cf uld ~10 r:rt J' q­

nu-ts for E:t1c cbUdrun. Tlllt 'Y~ts f-In _._l tud _, of ih•; hc~1. :rH ·n! :•r fo1· Port Cm't' ., vi:ho r .t 1TIG thcr,-=-· " throY-i::ur cff" in his in­sinuatin_;;, stylP, in '·.Thich th :i·e '\Vas no f:~n~e Dr rea.son. I-Je c1aimrcl :11 't if th~~ Gc"'""·'LY t and its supporters had any ·'o,•lin,< for !he men working in the rnilway, the:,, would not be " throwing off " at dl, but thJ. t tb ··~­wm•ld take a stand and vote either for or again,,t the amendment.

Mr. FORSYTH (.lhm·u"nba): Th,• qu•'•"­tion had cropped up of the cost of living here ns compared with other places. In

1913-3 F

Qr:9endand he found tlut they dood prcttT weil. Ii they teak the purci,c.oing power of mon('y-for groceriLc and food only-they would fir.c! that the amount nec"s"'"'Y on the ave1J.g' in '.:.ch :;: ear from 1901 to the first quarter of 1Jl3 to purchase in ca< '1 c<1pit ctl tov:n \Vhat \Yould hav.c cost on th~ av·~ .. rage £1 1n 1911 in the An~'ltralic:-_l capitals .ce­gardf~d a-s a. \Yhole, \Va.3 a~ follo\\J:-Sydney, £1 2,~. 9d.; 1\:1..: 'bourne, £1 r_ 9d.; Brisba11e, .£1 03. 9d. ; Adelaide, .£1 2s. 5d. ; Peri·h, £1 t:s. 6d.; Hobart, £1 3,,, 2d. "Ion. mc·n· b, -:·s \\·auld tbu& s'-e that thr ::tvera£_-e amounted to :81 2, .. , hilct Bri.banc was or_~~--' £1 QJ., so that. 1 he purch:_tsing po'-cr of the GJY-'.oign in I_:ri-~ .:;,n0 in the_.~ c: cc·:, ;,cod. R,nt '-' s a y;·.-y bic. c.n i0·1 for a or:;:~IL~ ·, 1n, r 1.d another t.' ble in "Knibbs" ~(o-,ed that in Qu-,en, Lnd they ,,:;Jed bT f .r t:w b-cJt, SycL~c-:;T th·: av~"rat·e .; £1 5s. 4d.; in r'urn·', £1 Os. 10d.; in Bri,1,anc, J.G,. ;:.d.; in J-\.dclaidr, £1 2- 5d.; in I-!cLart, l?:c 7d.; ar,d in Perth, 17_,.. 10d. The a>orage "' .s £1 2c·., '" hn.st Brisbane ''as o·~ly 16s. 5d.

Mr. liUNTLR: \Vould not perco~' \Yho owned their own hou' cs affect that 1

•.r. FOPSI:"TH: The tab!" was for all ptTcons ..-NllO were p.J..ying· r·ent, and, so far as ono could jud2;e fro1n those figurt "' those in Queensland were fairl;~' '' oll off. He did not th;nk an~, vody iPhed t J reduc~ ..tge on our r,~~hvo ::·. Prr~onally, he \\Ould like to see the G-o\ crni.:H'nt h._ ve a surplus of £100,000 on tho r,iiwa::3 next year, and th":1 th<>y could affm·d to ,.ive a very big ric0 to rr-i!way e·-1ployces. lt was not the policy of the Goverm21ent to mdw the raib ·'3'S prry to PU1J1 an extent 3.8 to bring a large rev< nue into the com·oliclatod revenue. If th";' could pay salarieo and working ex­penses and interest, that IYa • as much as they r lwuld expe0t. But they were not doing it. Last year, he thought, tbcy lu<.c :5-~~,u,vGJ, and for 1nany years, ,,_-ith the .e";::­ception of tY.o, they only showed a small balaneiJ. IIn ren1embered .:::orne years ago when thirg'' were very bad, but ,ince tl1u country got into a better state that disap­peared, ,, ,d in tho Lst five or six years

ares had incrcasrd. But the cost of living f' 'd al, > incre<Hed, and it was natural that rr 'll shou:d not be kept at the same a.-,, wh-on thoy "\YOre \Vorking under mu1 b<'t!er c-noditions as to the cost of livin;l. He thought the policy of the Government was tr7 to uplift men as far as they could, bu4, to Ia~· down any h".rd-,v·d-fast line wr· impo,c,;ible. All he could say as that ho thought t 1--, Gov' c·mmmt v·cs svm­pathctic, ; nd thcv had hr·.ud han. membJl'S on the other -ile , 'Y that <he:· t:wPe-ht the R -.ilv ey Com' i ·ioLcl' uld '"'.lly like to c~o tlw l lH f'ould f-:>r nL~n. The hon. 1'' ' f'or T:-enncl :~ail :--d'- ,_-,_ated the zo:JG

·' '1-:1, lm~ th-~f \ .'.8 onlv a .c<· ,_t{~ n th'""'::t CO Jd ho B'lnlit ,c{ tn ), cnu.:: .. try v.hurc the ·e ,, ~-~ 'l :.; ~:1t -.-~lr:_(,tl~ J ,c,~ nopuh_tion. ::;,end in a vor:,~ f::})?l" ly p PJU, :ed cct-~hy like 0ncen:-­land it we' imposs;1,1e. At tl,, nr":Pnt ti"Je thev b1.d . ~' " very large credit bclanr•',

.., '!' 1 ~ ,,-

7

:pPL~;Ted t:J. J._ l:..t;1nirq-[8 p.m 1 .- r:, , .ace tc the w1rd, so .v"r as

' 1 '.~ ,..,OPI;)olida-t-ed r.pvenue WRS CO"'rerr cl. '"he -'· c:" ta ·•r for R·,_ib·.}Y to]c1 them t?1at '1·' motio'l rrr· n~>- eubn'!it\•d bv the hon. m brr for ~f· ··ano.a, asking for a r:,'•hwtion in £ares and freig-hts, '\Yould h.~ve involved a lo"l of revr,nue of £120,000 a yea". How were they going to make up that

Mr. Forsyth.l

834 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Ra~lways Bill.

los'? The matte.r should be regarded from tbu point of vrew of the general com­munity, as well as from the standpoint of the c,1.ploy<::{'' of the Railway Derartrnent. He alw:cys belidved in the principle of giv­ing a man " good wage. \\'hen a man was well p'lid, he was likely to be more con­tenbd, ar.d to do more work than if he were undm·paid; but there wEre limits beyond which they could not go. Th2y must not forgd, that increased expenditure rneant further t<txcttion. He believed the discus­sion would do good. A man should not only have sufficient to pay for the neccssariPs of life, but he would like to see him able to !a~ b; a little for a rainy da,,-.

Mr. \YINSTANLEY : Very few of them can do that now.

Mr. FOTISYTH believed that a good many were able to do it. He hoped that tlwy would bA .able in a ;:hort time to gh e every man a good wage, bcCCI'ISe it made men more contented.

Que··tion-That the words proposed to be ins' rt-ed (;1[r. Huxha;~!s a?nendment) be so inserted- put; and the Committee divided:-

Mr. Adamson Barber

, Bertram Bowman

u Coyne , Fihelly , Foley

Gillies , Hamilton

Ana, 24. Mr. Kirwan

Land , Larcombe

Macrossan , May

McCorms.ck , Murphy

O'.Sulliv&n Payne

, Theodore , Welsby

, Hardacre Hunter Hm:ham

Tellers: Mr. ., Vi-rinstanley

Adamson and Mr. Huxham.

No:.:s, 38. Mr. Appel Mr. Kessell

" Barnes, G. P. Luke

" BarnPs, w. H. " Macartney

" Betbington " Mackay

Bell Mackintosh Blair "

Paget Booker PPtrie

" Bridges "

Philp Caine R'lrnkin

" Cor.s:r, B. H. Roberts

" Corser, E. B. C.

" Somerset

Crawford Stevens Cribb "

Swayne Denham Tolmie

" Douglas Trout

" Forsyth Vowles

" Grayson Walker Gunn White

" Hodge Williams 'l.'ellers: Mr. Bell and Mr. Mackay.

PAnt.

Aye-Mr. Gilday. No-Mr. Morgan.

Resolved in the negative.

Mr. HAMILTON: Before the clause w.as fimt!!y d:'·:'osed of, he wiEhed to refer to the re';ulatiOJ: which prohibited tht:J employment of men under 5 feet 6 inches in height in the railway service. Only that day a c:tse had been brought under his notiu in which a man who h<td been emplo?ed in the railway servi1'il for some time had to undergo an examin!ltion about a week ago. It seemed that his measurements were taken, and that he was found to be a quart,,r of an inch or half an inch under 5 feet 6 inches, a!l.d he w01s told that he would have to leave the gervice. That was a cruel regulation. .A

[Mr. Forsyth.

man who -..vas a quarter of an inch or half an inch short of 5 fee;; 6 inches might be physically stronger and o:hcnvisc 1nore eap­"ble of O:oing many railway duties than a taller man. lJut it appeared that !Cmplo)'~es in the raihvay service m1rst be oi a cerbtin chest rm·asure'''e21t and hot less than 5 feet 6 inches in height. ~l regulation of that kind was enough to n1ake a man cursp those Vi i10 brought him into the world, ~' nd it ought to Le wipPd out. Th<e only disqualifi­C'ahon for e1nplo:-nH~nt in the servif'G should Le incornpel-~-~ncy <"r ph::- .:5ical inabilit .. r to per­form the duties o£ the r-c·c ition to which a man was to be appointed. It \\as a moet inhuman r<"gulation. H,, did not s.tppose that any employer in the S·LaF '·,'ho wanted a WOPkman n,o,,Jd inquire whether he '\aS 5 feet 6 i"ches in hcicdn or had a u•rtain chP-:;:t nwa'3urPlnent. Un ; h:~ coi.J.trary, he W'L<J!d engage a man if he was cap'1bLo of perforhring the work required of him. In the ca,,p 1d1ilh was brought under his notice, the man wets about to be married, and the whole thing had to be put off, and he was thrown into lhe rankF of the unenployed. He hoped that the l;1inister or CorHlTII'i•ioner would review the r ·gulation he had referred to, and elin1inah~ it h·o1n the codo.

l\Ir. BEBBINGTON (Drayton) said he did not think that he "ould be ~dmitted to the servi ·e undlr that regulation, and yet he ho,d served seven yctrc- with one of the biggc-cJ; railway companies in England-the Midland Railway Company-and had a very good rEcord. 'i'he North-western Railway Company rejected men if they were too tall, as thL v could not do the amount of work re4uired of them; they preferred short, stout men, aHd would not employ tall men. The regulation in force in Queensland prohibited a man who paid bxes from having a share in the emplo0 ment of the Government, and he Ylou]d votP £or itJ abolition.

Clause put and passed. Clause 18-" Examiners "-put and passed. On clause 19-" Period of temporary em-

ployment"-Mr. HUXHAM wished to bring before the

Minister the nosition of those \lho were in temporary employment in the service. In the cleric;:al and professional branches, some of those men had bE>en employed for seven­teen and a-half years. Some of them had been put on the staff from time to time, but there was still a great number who were not put on the list as permanent employees. There were about 150 men-profer-sional men, such as draftsmen and others-who were in that position in the department.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Look at the proviso.

Mr. HUXHXM : Yes, but that was purely at the option of the Commissioner. It was only reasonable that when professional men had been serving the State for a number of years-in fact, after twelve months-they should be put on the permanent st,1ff. It seemed to him that they were penalised by being liable, at the mercy of the Minister or any other higher officials, to be passPd out at a moment's notice. He knr-w of two officers, one of seventeen and a-half years', and the other of twenty-seven years' stand .. ing, whose names were scratched out last year without any notification whatever.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: '\Yhy did you not l~t me know about that when you were discussing the Estimates?

Rai!ways Bill. (6 AUGUST.] Railtoays Bill. 835

Mr. Hl:'XHAM: He hoped before this dause went through o.hey would be able to .. come to so~ne t:atisfactory solution with re­gard to th,cse wen.

Mr. HARD.ACRE said he knew wen in the railway ,,crvice who had been in tem­porary 1mployment for wmething like six­teen or o''Venoccn Y!Jars; they had ~en in continuous emplo.,·mGnt, but only on what were called "tem1Jor:J,ry duties." He did not know that lw ould like to see them forced on to the clal,,ified f taff under present conditior""'' b8C .. \USe quite a number of men in the Central di~trict hau rc·-igned from the permctnent staff in ord1 r to become tem­porary men, as thl'y got higher wages.

The SE~RETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vhen I stated that two hour" ago you would not believe it. (Laughter.)

)ir. HARD"~CRE: Some of them were lengthsmen. He thought that the conditions should be altered so that a permanent hand got more than a temporary h.md. The word " ten1porary " 1-vas a wrong word to usP ~ as the 111en v, ere in fnnplo_y111ent for years at strei th, and tho words " classified " or ~· unclassifif a'' ·wore more correct. He moved the deletion of thr• word " tem­porary," on line 28, and the insertion of " unclassifif,d."

Amend·_lent negatived.

Mr. KIRWAN: \Yhile men who were temporarily employed in tlw railway were subject to the same rules and regulations as percna11ent employees, yet they were denied the bene,i i J nf the Appeal Board. Some of them contend<d th:tt thev were not dealt fairly with, as thPy might' be dismissed sud­denly for ,d,.-,,t they considered some appa­rently insuffwicnt re.tson. Had the Minister any objection to thc·'B men going to the .'1.ppeai lh,,rd i[ they S•) de···ired 1

The SECRETJ .. RY FOR RAILWAYS said he saw no rea,•~,Jn, as far as he \Yas aware, why these tr <lporary employees should not h .. we tl,c ' encfit or the Appeal Buurd. He was not quite certain whether, under the provisions oi the Bill, they would have the right of 'otin;; for the members of the board ; but if the hon. member would leave the matter :n his hands he would attend to it to-n ... orrow morning.

Mr. KIRWAN: Thank you.

Mr. BOW:\1AN Faid that complaints had been made to him about men in the Ip.·wich work- hop., ,; ho, when thBy were within a week of having put in six months' r.ervice, were struck oJf.

The SE'JRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Why should it be?

Mr. BOWH.iN: He did not under,cand wh .. : is should be; he v. 'IS eckin,; ihe Minister why it vas 1 He hoped the· MiniLter wou!J make son1A inquiries i'1to this p1:1ctice, ns, if it vcas < .;rric i on in the Ips;·:ich workshops the sooD: r it was Ftopped the better for all concerned.

The s~"R~TARY FOR RAILI-~AYS: I will make inquiries.

Mr. HARD2,CRE: The practice whirb heed beBn referred to by the hon. member for Fortitude Valley did not oucur in the Cen-

tral district as much as it u0cd to do, but it had oc(:urred some years ago

[8.30 p.m.] through some petty meanness on the part of those in authority,

,,-ho l<ad made the men work up to within a clay of the six months, an~ then dismissed them, and put them on agam the next week.

Mr. FOLEY: The Mini>lcr said he did not know v;h'C such things should exist.

The SrcRHARY FOR RAILWAYS: Why should such a st&te of affairs exist at the Ipswich workshops 1

:::lfr. FOLEY: He kn<nv of scores of cases in Townsville where m< n f'mployed in dif­ferent branche·J in the rail>'·ay S!lrvice were put on as temporary hands for six month,;, and within a day or two of the end of that term the' \\ere knocked off for a couple of days and" then put on for another six months.

The SBCRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They are temporar:; hands, and they practicaliy get permctnent employment in that way.

Mr. :MuRPHY: The same rule applies in the Federal service.

Mr. FOLEY: He only roc" to reply to tht' Minister's remark when he asked why such things should exist.

The SECRETARY FOR RULWAYS: I Was refer­ring to the Ipswich workshops, where men -iYere qualifying for a permanent position.

Mr. FOLEY: Well, it was done in Towns­ville, where men were anxious to get on the permanent staff.

Han. I:. PHILP: Notwithstanding the low "\vages.

Mr. FOLEY: Yes, notwithstanding the low wages.

Clauses 19 to 21, inclusive, put and pa: sed.

On clause 22-" Gratuities and overtime payment"-

Mr. MAY moved that after the ward " work," on line 10, the following proviso be inserted : -.

" pro,:ided that ,aJl overtime work shall be paid for at the prescribed overtime rates, and overtime worked on any day .~hall be allow!ld for irrespective of the duration of the time worked on any other clay."

There was a practic~' in the Railway Depart­ment of lumping the hours worked by the <c :nployces so as to make ninety-six hours a fortnight. That was not fair to the m!)n. Each day that was worked should be paid for on its merits. Even if a man did not work a complete day, he should be paid for a full day. The practice of the depart­ment wets that, if a man worked more than eight hours one day, he had to take time off another day, so that he would not work more than ninety-six hour' a fortnight. The idea was so that the departrr:;mt would not have to pa;~ overtime. The Labour party did not believe in mpn working overtime, but, if it .,, as cvmpul~ory, they 'hould be paid overtime for the hours they worked. Two ye'lrs ago he laid a complaint before the Mini,ter a~,out the engine-drivers at H ughenden not getting more than seventy h eight··· hours a fortnight, although on som3 da:rs thm· worked more than eight hours. That >vas caus<'rl through the men heing lmoch-d off for two or three days. If the matter were looked into, some bett~Jr arrangement could be made .

• Mr . . May.]

S36 Railways Bill. [ASREMBLY.J Railv•ays Bill.

Mr. FOLI'Y pointed out th:1t the em­ploy"·,·s in t 1w Railway Dopc.rtmcnt in and arourd Toycn•.villD had crmplained th:ct the'<· W{~re nev{:·~· paid overti1n.3 ratC\c;;; whca theY were called upon to work overtime. Orders were given to h~...tds of dt'par+~nents th,1t no 1n.an Y. '""s to lJo allow,}d to 1r1ake overtim'_'. The result was tha:c, if a man worked elc I"Cn or tv.·.·h-e hom.; one day, he ''as told to takD l:::tl£ dav off thfl next daY. The men did net w .. nt 'to work overtirr e at all, bnt when they ,:ore c~llod upon by lhe depart­nF·nt to do so, they should be p~;.id t.ho fe;v ox~ .·a i'hillin&c; tlw, f··~.rned. a_ 'd Lot be told to Cl't. ir ou~ x~ J.ay. Ji £r"quently hap­P'~ ----( U \Yl1 •n a h~an vr0rk0d C'verti 110 tL~' t \Vhon ho c 'll" J iL to v. ork n2xt 1nornin he ,~m"> told L bO Lon1e ._·nd l1J,Voo a l·olida:·;. It son1(,- ~rt· b1.pp~ ilc c.I t h ;, .., n1 :.n n1ig·hs have b~ -.: h.JlU -·' o·yertirne, and just bcfor-" tlv~ end of l

1,·' £.-~·tnis1It ho ,,.(·o·l..kl ~c told to

takd a day off, and th<' t c,o·_lld n1ake hixn tw:1 hou:.3 'sLDrt at the end of the fortnight. That; v a·c nco a sati,factory >ystem, and should be al'·;nd.

Mr. ADAMSON: Unless an .amendment similar to the one moved by the hon. mem­ber for Flinders was carried the eight-hours system in the Railway Dep•utment v-~uld be redl:"ed to a farDP. Tlwre had bPen a good deal of t.•lk n few years agD about eight hours a day being intror!uced in the Rail­way DPpartmenl, and yet they kn"'w that m-nn had worked, in sos.ne ca;\c~·, as rnany as t'\" enty hours .a day, and thPY could not get any overtime ~ ecause until they had worked ninety-six hDurs a fortnight, no overtime weq r·ttid. Rail,·ay 1:1en h:~d told him that tho:. had to ork a gre'lt deal longer than the:;· want;eil to work, and then thuv had to take time mf to plE·~se the de;1a.rtment. Having work• d long hours to pknse the department, th~ department should sen that · they \'\"d'e pnid for tho•·e long hours. He hdd that it w;cs desimble to dir·Jourage overtime work on the railways .as far as possibL'l, as the work was of such a nature that the men required all their faculties when performing that work. If the men had to work overtime, every day should st<md by itself, and the men should be paid ovmtime when they worked over the eight hours a day. No privat•• employer would be allowed tD follow the syet<·m adopted by the Railway Department, but the Minister knew th:;t with the regulations and with one kind of thing and ·another they had the men under the whip, gnd th0se men were expe{ !>•d not to refuo? to follow on beir shift, because if they did they would b.• sm:Jc n 'ed. He knew of a case on thD CPntr.~l line '' l1ere a man who was not well, aft:r working a long shift, felt th<tt h9 was ja0<d and tired after a very cold night, ·and lw :.e~t that he should h<t,-" ;:one off at hi<: proper time, but he ''""'e ordered to go en to Knerald. He rdtn ·"!, with the result that he was cusnenC:' l because he refusoJ to \York hours aJto;~ther unre~SOn­.ab',,, He hoped the Minis'er would s~:e his way cle.,r to acce;:t the amendmenc, as it '\1 as a very rea·sonable one.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAY:::;: The hon. member for Flinders, when moving the .amendment, said that the men shot1ld be paid a full da;;·'s wage even if they had not worked the full day. He did not think the hon. member reaily meant what he said, and what the hon. member desired was to emphasise the fact that ·each day's work

[Mr. Fole;y

should stand by itself. If each dav's work w:c3 to stand b:,· itseL:, where the e;{igencies of the running s::>ft demanded that an em­ployee should only work four hours, then he could only be paid for four hours. Regu­lation 15 provided-

" Employees will be required to per­form public duty beyond the usual hours, or on any public or proclaimed holiday, whenever it may be nce<c·,sary for the· completion of current work or in oose of any tempo·:try preesure of businesc .. An oii-!,yn~ in charge of an office rH~Y -d1rect >n- cn1 1lovc• pncL'r hi -.1 to nal.a aftcv the usud hours to COl•lp]de the work of the doy. No charge for over­time .. , ill be allowed for such detention.

" Sn \'u> l officers Fhall not h• paid overtin1e tnJoss the "'~~·ork performed is exDc:'tic"lal .and cannot l<l pe:·formed­during tho pr ,•;cribed offoe hours, :'nd no claim on the pa:t of .any employee· for stwh work shall be allowed without the oonction of the Commissioner. The rate for overtime, unless where otherwise spe"ific.illy arranged, shall be t1me <!tnd a-quart,-,r.

" In c0mputin~; overtime, no emolu~ ments other than salary shall be taken into ace .-mnt.

'· The recognised working day for all <:mplo:vecs earning a daily :vage. shall be eight hours, or (if ~h~ .,•xJgenCJes of i:~1e strvice require irrJgnlar hours} nino~y-six hours a fortnight."

He would dra·,· the attention of hon. mem­bers t•} a clause in the Bill ·," hk:1 read-

" (1) The head of any hanch Df ~he service '"ay, if he thinks fit, <;ert1~y that in hib opinion any e,nploy.<'e m h1s branch is entitled to a gratu1ty or to a fAl,:naent for overti1ne \vork.

" (2) No gratuity or payment for ove~­time work shall be paid upon sneh certi­ficate without the authority of the Com­missioner."

He contended that this clause did not' apply to the staff generally as coyered by t_he regulations, but that it ·applied to ~peCJal cas·es and to salaried men, because m the case of the general staff where overtime was worked no certificat0 v·as issuc·rl-the men were simply paid overtime. H" would point out that the lengthsmen, mPn on construc­tion ''ork, :md those men who were . em­ploy,,d in improving .already opened hnes, •all w<'rk~d eight hours a day. But where it wc.s a quection of a running st<'.ff, the '<>Ork ""'·""''__..,,, nr;]f' ---,arilv iTli-'rrlit•?.d·. TL-·:y had to Look on at a c • .:rtnin time for a certain run, a'.1d c.3rtain >:\Tork that y:ould tat.:e only :=-,ix hou-~·s ( ~1 .·ne er ,. pr' 1'.t l .... tr n hour::~ on an::---!-~1fr d:tY. Th \'":~·- t~-: 1 '1so-~: why, therD being fortnightly pa:;s, or if th•, ex­ig-encies of t1te service r?quired regular hom·e, t':tat the ninety-'·ix hcun n, fortnight wa,, fixPd .

Mr. FoLEY : Take the goods-shed hands.

The SEf'RETARY FOR RAILWAYS : The :'""Ods-ccleds hands worked gocd hours, and if they work•od more than ninety-six a fortnight they were paid onrtime. One or two hem. mPmbers had said that the mBn uid not de,ire to work overtime. He did not think the men, either Dn the running staff or on any other staff, objected to work­ing all reasoDable overtime they could; and

Railways B,ill. [6 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 837

where they were paid time and a-half for Sumlay \\•Jrk, they certainly did not object to war~;;: overtin1e.

Mr. FrHELL~: Xo con,cientious scruples?

The SECRET~.\.RY FOR RAIL\YAYS: No; and there wa. '> a clause in the Bill under vd1ich no empioyee \vas bound to ~\ork on Sunda.\,. TL.jro \Vas r,a ~~om pulsion in the Railway D·oparlment. -

l\lr. KIRWAN: No what?

Tho SECRET"\RY FOR RAILWAYS: No cuupu!L :on, or preL renee to unionists.

Mr. Bo•."}fAX: There is preference to 11011--unioni rits.

.th. i:il!:i"RETAR': FGR RAILWAYS: Nor tJ non 'U1ion\~ I-s. The e .. ,:igencies of the 1 ;:'.L .. ..:.,ing ·"--~all ne~-c-.'-arily CGL1pr llod them to work irrc-,. •dt.r hc.u , ·- d h: did no;, think tk.t a < ;,_1;. e could ;Jo made tl~c.c th.; ofliGial:o desired ,<J do r·nythin:o· but '.-h?t \\,ts fair to the men. He did not think that they should tr.· to do it.

Mr. KIRWAN: They should not try.

Tho SEC'RE'l'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: And he did not beliPve they did. He really could not accept the amo"duent.

Mr. KIRWAN: E,·iden+]y any attempt made by members o" th· Hous0 to improve the conditions of th0 lower-paid men of the service was mpi by tho oppGcition of the Secretar:· for Railways.

The SzcnETAHY FOH RAILWAY:i: He has not do?JP thd Ior thrc '' years pabt.

Mr. I;::IR\Y .. \K: He was not going to de­tract from anything the hon. gentleman or the Cora> oi' i~ner h,d <lone; but he thoug:1t it was about time that hon. mcmbo·s knew that it was a fair thing that men who worked overtimP r ~.1ould be paid for it.

The S.:cnETARY Po=: RAILWAYE: And they are p:tid.

:l!r. KIR\VAN: Th":· ,,e•c paid on the 1·unning staff and in ~he Lo~mnotive Branch, but thev were not pn.id in tho 'l'r;,ffic Br:mch, and th: hon. 6entlm:--1n kne'.• it very ,,,ell. Surely thn 6.£1:·;_,rtn1c..;.lt or tl-L ~;~"xpaJers could afl n·d tn pay overtime if they could nc:t ~-fiord ".<) pu; ',\ ,_.ge_s equal to ti.l(>'Se in tho 'J. "r :",rtf o:' the (_ >mom'· alth! The hon. uoLL.or ho.d s :id that the men did V\ant over\-in~e. II~ Wn~- qui:e dJfi~d thut in::.;;_:;_;_' __ ;·hLt, ia '·l.J rr_r,ili:; ErandllJar­ticuh· rly, f:.,, m~ :.:. did l{ t '- .._, ~lt o, er·~ime und~~r t~-. 1 ..:Jl"f'•,c!:' t o:1ditio: ·· 1 he ? s rt:1ti~1g wh;_~t \"; nJ,~olutoly tr-w, ~-.,J:!·= ~.hat could not be contn.clictd. F: .. time to :ro ofi to­nigh~. n~.i;s·h~ -:\e 7 o'.. 1

c ~-;::, lJ ;.t if !_ho exi :en.::ie2 of the depart:<1c1t ·:iL_·t-:··1 his vvo~·king on until :o oc ~ 1 , c':, v·'" she .ld he c•ot be· pa· l ~c} · io' ·: y·· s pr< :o··.red to ro nff a._; 7 o'clock; ,_,_ ii.J .. h 1' .. : ~":.·r,.-n~_red to f'") somc.·.}··.l:o t~~ .. t r_~ght, : .. ·.~ to ·ui~. thf' con-\r .li··r:{o ;;e ~._~~~--~·- ·,l.LJP':~ or svn1e officer, or De-" i,.Jlv ·~rJ.ere \Yt, ·· P· ·-.110 \Vork that' co •JJ n cl. 1ayeJ til the next sLift cr on tl. ol!o. i . . :s l: · h'ld to stay on L, 1.t ovonin;1-. de c vntt~·n(ied thnJ if he h:1d to work t!1o :<~ !~~ur hour····, hP :;::1ould gt..·t ove _:L!e. I£ th~·· ].J.ini:.,te~' \Vas going to defEat t~e <--.IT'l~ndrn ·nt, let t~ o~ f!:LY th2.t there we · nJ ··.1ch f,in; as an <·i.:,·ht-hour day in t1 8 c~ ·r·~trb .. H r) P. -1; had i:; nJt b~en g>.:-:n forth ">:\ i~h E great b}>.·re of trru~tpet.~ and ¥ViLh considr·rabl,, lc ~d<> to the n1e:nbcrs 'vho occu~ pi"d tho Tr·a'"n: 1 "· .d d tlw t: '· that­at lc31--t~w r-:,ihnl,:~ nv ·1 h 'fd an eight~ hour

.day, when they knew that to a lar6·e number

it was a mockery and a delusion and a snare. He could warrant that if the department had to pay overtime, some of the officials might prove to the Commissioner that they had bettor methods of dealing with tho work entrusced to them, and thereb,v save over­time. Under the present conditions they knt:w th('./ could compr,l n1en to work over~ time and take time <.J1 r,ext cby. He had .<riven an illustration previously in the House to prove that be men could not \\ork ninetTr~--,:x hours u for-tni:sht. For f.xample, ld- tfwr.1 ··nppc-se that n8xt :\:Dnday v-.~:: a public h ,]id.:y. The mei.1 in the P,"O;;>,ds-··i!ed, .. xcept ; cl'hccps c ,ew, £Ot the da3· o!t. They haJ to gJ t l wor'< on Tu€sd.·-y, anJ if they ,.-c. ked 'en hours tl.c·.· had to cuL out two on \Yedne •d;~y, and no" opportunit::- \\dS given ther,r to maka up the ninecy-r•i·c hours. Every opportunicy y, as c..: ken to cut down the lower-paid men. It <.~s a pity that the pruning-knife was not applied a littl~ fur­ther up. He hoped that if th,, amendment was defe,, ted, th" Minister would send a general order tn the railway employees, tell­ing them that the eight-hour day \\as no longer in existence. He contcm,od that there was no <uch thing arc >1n ciiiht-hour d~y in the Tr·cffic Branch, :.o far ns a large ''"'t10n of the employN-; thvre were concerned. He had his ox,,erience in the departn.ent _of some oi lh•1 uethods th•ct were adopted. He would

.ccive an instance. He might have [9 p.1n.] ~ st.df of seven 1nrn, tv.:'O of

whom might work overtime to­day. Those men would be told '0 come on at 5 o'clock to-moaow instead of 3 o'cloc;;c, and the work would have to be dmrc by the other five men. That actually occurred in his own personal experience. :M<>thods like that were beneath concempt, and should not fi~d a p 13ce in thCJ administrati<>n of the Railway Department. As the Mini,ter was not pre­par•·d to give increased pay, he s~ould at least insist on overtime being pard. If overtime was paid for, h<> was <.Brtain that frere would be very little overtime worked. He belieVc'd that m n in the Railw;;y Depart­ment who were engaged in un:oading ex­plosi ~es, Wf '" uo~ paid overtime wh~le . at that work, .d~hougn cmpk.' oes of the 1\.carme DeJC•'"rtr. . ··1t roceived overtime for· the same

cdL I .. ~-11-::: iaL::.~ lxorkiT ~· i.<: the Locmn-otive Bn.ne'1 p rn:1,-: uv-:T~ iri'e, 1- "~~"7 ,;,s only N{n:~al ~e Lilt. 1nf ·1 in the Tr~.J1c 3ranch sl:o-~ld p~,: ···_;_:-n._ f .. r overli.:~le.

~,r,._ O't TTLLIVAN 1 it v-.1~ ne"·rly time tha~ ·, i.: Railv. dY I>·~_,o:!. tl11~- ~r .. ~~id fo~ o!'e~~ "ln1c TL.:c1-3 "\'.' '1,9 -:; ~wr.1 c'--~~-~~ 1:-tlllvS

thc·u·<hout ell" ',hol3 ckL•Chl•ent about the nl-'_'~' _, In his l~._~:or v-~~~--n -..-:~-. ha'~{ays

o~- c:J t'.\T~ ..: .~·s n ···o, - ~- re I.VGrc Jncn .-, ori ~ ~1 r u1_; f·~ ir ·waisf· in "\YP it-T long :_ours one ·_-c !;.:, ,,n<:. ;.1 L··nd of l·. ing r:t.id OVC<r~im~·. f 1 t~ V \YC'C };:::~ C· 1

;::1 d -i.he n~xt -. cr-:__ ~ i.0 !_ad in h:· hrnd a b .:.r1ng

.. t v:.1t l :.: . .id. 'l''J.o L··'tP" w.·. c•.usint; ~r- e~nc.1g· the r 11--;·~a~-~ '._.rkers. It ~.laS f1.i1 : 11 "t, Y'l ?~ ll1't':'l "'iYfT0 askt..d -1----. ,, '~~-,C0 f.l ,-,~l' o-·-1: tim: for d 1 0 br-~1efit of th·· c·r>artr · "t, J. v El:ouH b<· na·d i.,r the ~x-•-ra. , .. J .. ' 1 ,,;rfc _a~r -~- "\Vhc?- 1n:::·P, in -TtiYate e:._ .orked overtime, t:l\:~Y - i1ai'1 for i' cn·1 he prct.. · .. t.-.l ,,gainst

~n v:hi~:n t- '"? r._. il-· rty ork:.:rs ''ere

11r. ~v.:::t-I::=LI.sl"'": T~-.o r1o·:-li striking fea~ -i·ur. i"'l hi::~ c· l~ -cie1:..0e in t1,:-d Ch.-rmbvr was the ( :tllou~J indiiff L·cnce dl~ ~""'la:\·ed by 11inis­t<;rs in charg~ of Bills towards amerlo!rnents

lb. Filzelly.]

838 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Ra,ilways Bill.

coming from the Opposition side. Appar­ently meml ers of the Oppoeition were not suppo~cd to be rational beings, or to repre­sent o, section of the electors. He did not think that members on the rther side even credited them with be:ng posses'"'d of intel­ligence. The amendment was a mo·t reason­able rne. The principle of payment for ovcr­tiicte was• -:tpplit d to individmds <mgagcd in private enterprise, and they v. ero noli allovvcd to deal with overtime in a haphazard way; but appar~nti::· the Government wns pre­pared to explo1t 1n-~n \Vho y;z,ro suppo~:<~d to work ninc-ty--ix ho•n·s a fcrtnight. He could given ,ln even bet.h.r illustration than that givPn by the bon. :u_·P.:nbPr for Brisbane. After a c 01 bin tim0, mJmbns of the \Vater­side Work"rs' Union were p::>id more than the 01~din.'1ry rate.;.; but when men in charge of tnins carrying hundrl+ of passengers and r~presenting lhou··•mdo of pou'lch' worth of sto('k W?l'0 asked t.o v~·ork overthne, in­stead of being properly remunera~ed, they wn,• toH. tl:•c t)•w n•c{ not v;ork full timo the fo'lo-, :ng d:ty. · That '' JS not right. The :Minister apl.'e?rcd to think that e\ ,,rything coming from th,, Oppositiu1 side W'1S wrong, but ,,JE"?tim,"·· tbcy nlut--t. be right, if L \Y·L'r!:.' only by of j("c~d··C:lt, or in ~he ordinary la1.v of avcruz;e-,. One of th·-, ~.: da:. 3, ho in­t-endr>d to call for a return t:hovdng the tra.velling' expenqes o£ the Cot, 1 n1issiot\~_·r, the Traffic cluperini t-·ndent, and a fe· .. "· of the other big gLLns of tho derJ-irtni'~n+7 in vYha~.e ha1ids th1 Minister appear€d to he or.ly a bit of puttv. He would call for that return to sho t'l "\vha t oYortimc th<>'3e officials got in the '' 3.Y of travelling r:--xpen<;'.e< 1 whilu the rank and file in th~ departn1ent 'ver.o be­grudged paywent for overtim!'. The Minis­ter would alFo be nsked to explain why in­crease"< of £50 ond £100 wore given to highly-paid offieials---

Th,, CH.URMAN: Order ! The hun. n1omber is nov.· deh1.ting matJnrs 1r;hich v;ould more proprrly be referred to on the E;,l i­mates.

Mr. FIHELLY: He W'>'l veing to illus­trnte his arg-urnent ·with rC'~ard to Gvert-ime by showing the wasb of money goiDV, on in other directions. He recognised that . the Chctirman \\ ns cnrrcr-t, and he did not intend to gv outsid0 the r•tling. He vm s pleasAd that the Chairman Lad emphasised the objec­tion that he h,,.c\ made by indicaling that there '\Yrrs a VYash, of lTIO~h·_y in of1cr quar­ter.-:. I:Ie was going to supuort th"'~ alTIGnd­ment, because it was a most roasonabl0 o1m, and he ho1·ed the C ommitlee would seek further explanation from the· Minister, and also d<·mand that th_· hon. gentleman would aOOBpt sowc amendnwnh which would do some ;;-ood to the chaps who were under­neath.

Question-That the words proposed to be inserted (l!lr. May's amend,::ent) be so in­serted-put; and the Committee divided:­

Mr. Adamson , Barb~·r , Bertram , Bowman , Coyne

Fihelly , Foley ,., Gillies , Hamilt~n

Hardacre ,) Hunter

~:r.c:s, m. 1\Ir. Kirwan

,, Land Larcomho May )i(·!Jormank O'.f.iullivan Payne Roberts

, Theodore , Welsby

Winsto.nley ,, Huxham

Tellers: Mr. Bertram ancl Mr. Fihelly.

[Mr. Fihelly.

NOEB, 36.

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P.

Barnes, W. H. , Bebbington ,, Blair , Booker

Bridges Caine

,, Corser} B. H. Corser, E. B. C.

u Crawford , Cribb ,, Denhan1

Douglas , Forsyth , Grant

Mr. Hodgd Kessell Luke

, Macartnry Afackintosh

, Paget Petrie

, Philp Rankin Somerset Ste-vens

, Swayne Tolm,:., Trout \ owln W'·lkn·

. \Vhi~·., , Grayson , Gunn Viillia..ms Tellers: Mr. G. P. Barnt'> and :llr. Trc·ut.

PAIRS.

Aye"'-)Ir. Gilday and l\ir. JYIUil hy. =~~ o~ .,-J.lr. ::Uorg £' n itnd 11Ir. Be II.

Resolver! in the negative.

Clause put and passed.

Clauses 23 to 29, both inclusive, put and passed.

On clause 30-" Con,.titution of board," et,;.-

Mr. WINSTANLEY: There were one or two matter': in connection with this clause on \Vhich he ~hould like some information. Subclause (2) said-

" The board, when sitting for the pur­poses of any appeal, shall be composed of the police magistrate aforesaid, one of the aforu~eid officers of the Commissioner who is not the head of the branoh in which tho appellant is employed, and the employees' ·representative who is em­plo;ved in the branch in which the ap­·pellant is employed."

In the case, of an engine-driver .and fireman, the Locomotive Superintendent was the head of the branch in which tho:e men were em­ploy~cl, but immediately they got out on the road they were practically under the control of the Tr;:.,fiic Branch, and ·what he wished to know was whether, in the event of any­thing going wrong while those men were out on the rocccl and an accusation being made against them by the Traffic Manager, that officer would be eligible to sit on the board. Another point that he would like to have cleared up had reference to the Appeal Board. H a. man was accused of some misdemeanour and was found guilty and fined, and he appealed against that decision, v;ou!d the Appeal Board have the right to m-try tho ca'e ar:d increas0 the fine?

Mr. KIRW,\N: They have increased the fine.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: Yes, he had noticed that the Appeal Board had increased the fine in certain cases, and he should like to know whether they would have the power undPl· this Bill to do that. According to his idea, the real function of the Appeal Board should be to uphold or to dismiss .an appeal, and not to retry the case. To take on itself the retrying of the ease, and practi­cally double the penalty that had been im· posed, seemed to him to be entirely wrong. He moved the insertion on line 31, page 10, of the words " the secretary shall give to the

Railways Bill. [6 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 839

appellant at least seven days' notice of the date when the appeal will be heard." Sub· clause 6 read as follows:-

"Every appeal shall be in writing, shall clearly and concisely set forth the grounds upon which the appeal is made, shall be despatched to the secretary. with­in seven days after the date when the appellant receive> the decibion which is appealed against, and shall be heard by the board within thirty day' from the <.!ate wh~n the appeal is received by the sr r-ctary/'

Any f1Pr<··ul aJ--,in_-t a de< ion 1nust be mar1e '\Yithin c-~Yen t;a.)S, the CYse :nust b-.: retried .,., iC1i:. .. tlnrl .y:;:, Tl1~ dt~partment vvere under nJ oblig .·~11-ll ·wh:..'.."': ~-y,_ 1: -~::>- give the .-;.npelbnt any notic•.:; in so;,w c.• ~s he 1vould not be aL~e to b' t to tld court, as he ~,1 ou1-1 lu a\vav on dut;y, a~.!.d he Vlould not have a?1y opport>...1nity of being pr€­parEd.

Tl10 :S£~ ~i.:STARY I· OR B \ILV. A1' '~· : 1\.n1ple tin1e is arr .1nged now · n tl.at ·:hat shall not happen.

Mr. WINSTAJ'\LE'i : I.o ,, as not ar­ranged for in tho Bill, but if it Wt•S so pro­vided tlr·~re could be no har1n in s11e-..ifying it in the Bill. It was only a fair thing to give St'ven days' notice.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS did not provuse to dcal with th!l amendment until he had heard the arguments of hon. 1nen1(,e1s as to whcthrw iL 'Yas net,.'----,\ary, and haJ seen the Parliamentary Draftsman about it. Th<> han. member had wished to know whether, in the ens, of an engine­driver leaYing the yard and going out on to the nmning road, if he !Jro:w away any of the ruleo 2.nd regulutions, he then being under tho control of the 'rraffic }1anager, that official or th 1 Locon1otive Engineer, as the case 1.1ibht b··, "odd IJ;; sitting on the Appeal Board. Although he was te•npor­arily placed under tho control of the Traffic' Mam·ge1', who controlled the running train traitc, if b,_; did sornething v.rhich was nc_rainst the rules and regulations 1vhich would render him liable to punishment, he v\·ould not be reported and punished by the Traffic Man­age;·, but by th3 heaJ of his branch-the Locomotive Engineer-,o that the officer sit­ting on the "\.ppeal Board would be an officer oil1cr thrn tb< h(·ad of his branch. In conn•.ction with the r.:e1•eral matt3r of the personnf'l of the Appeal Board and the method by which the employers' repro~enta­tivF'J \.vere elected, the clause, as it .stood, had thf· e·,tire approval of all the railway employees in ihe Railway Department. Last year the Bill \Hcs printed and road::- for cir­culation ju,t before the repr!Cscntacivcs of the employees met him for the last time in connection with a propo>,tl he had made to them for bettering their conditions with r..:spec' to th•3 Appc:tl Beard, and he thDn had an amendment printed and circulated covering what they d~c,ired, the effect of which he,d heen embodied in the clause.

Mr. FoLEY: The ·amendment will not alter it.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: Dealing with the -clause generally, he ished to point out that an individual who acted for the men in these "l)i' '·:tl caocs had written to liim, point­ing out that the Locomotive Superintendent was nonnnally at tho head of the engine­drivers and firemen, and yet, if they went out on the road they were under the control

of the Traffic Manager. The result was that, if trains were late, or got stuck on a bank, the mutter was reported to the Traffic M';'n­a"er who referred it to the Locomotive Eongineer, with a requ<-st to be informed ''hat action he proposed to take.

The St.CRETARY FOR RAIL''>AYS: It must nocessa;·ily be so.

Mr. \YIKSTANLE'.: : That proved his point that the Traffic Manager. ":"'~ the accus,'r m the first plr~e of the mdividual. Ho took action in the lint place', and the con~Pcu-enc>3 as that the dri,-er or firen1an wa·• ,;,,.lor t'w control of two hends, nei·oher of whom, it was contended, should sit upon an app<<1l.

The SE;'RET.ARY FO::t RAILWAY:',: The ·u1:--cL,u~M read a, follo'~,:s :-

" Three p'_:rson~· Loldinrr for the ti1no h •ing the oS::'.cc> of. Cni<>f Ec.!'ineer, Chief 1\Jcd{anitJal E ::g:>neer, ::nd General Trnfiic Sup· rintcr::..tlent in the Southe,~.a clivi '·in.1, or the oflices of General Tra.c.t-tC :\Ia!lr;,g~r, l\iainte' ,_,,nee. Engineer, and I_.joclrr ... oti.,~·o Engi:H __ er In the Central and Northel·n division· 1 re,::pentively."

Therdore>, he took it that, without "any argutnent at u_ll, if. it \V~re a c~s~ or an a~,peal bv an ,engint_'-drnrer, n.P1111er the

" • Trafhc l\lanager nor the _Loco· [9.30 p.m.] motive Eugiiwm· would s;t, ~m

that Appc ,1 Bomd. <J;'h' l•iam­H''1ance En0in-Lfr wou1_J nec.''Ssanly be .an officer who w0ulcl have not.hmg to do With the m;;,tt<r, and ta would sit on the board.

J1fr. \VDIS'l'ANLr:~: Is ihat your r,:,ading of th•" clause.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Certainly.

Mr. BOW:MA~ poi·1ted out that he !'tad rec,·ivccl a nnmber of rec'?m'?end_atJ~ns which one of the raihH,v asso(llatiuns 1n uhe n1ctropolitan a::·ca . \Yere an~:'J_HS to have inc!U<led in th<c Bill. Th•y aPs~red to have a District Court judge ~o presi?e over the bo;ird, ilJ.?:.cad . of ,\ QO~l(':~ n1:1g1"trate. lie did not know 1f the .c.l!mctcr would accept that.

The think could citht r

S:rcl~J"'T\RY .-oJ: R1ULV/AYS: I do not it would be poRSible, b~D":US0 ;)'~U not o-et a District Cour·t Judge lll the Central division or the Northern

, ... QiV1Slf1D.

Mr. BO\'a,rAN: It was oae of the rPcom­mendatic.ns sublil;tted to him to try and get inserter! in the Bill, an.d in" or?•c·r. to carr! it out h-, would move bat Distpct Cou." t judge" be substituted for "pollee mag!s­trr_L~."

Mr. WIT';STA::"i'LEY said that he would \'dthdra\V his ar1end1nent. ~\.mendment, by leave, withdrawn.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR P_LBLIC IN­STRUCTION: ~\s certain querws had been made by hem. members, and as _he CMr. Blair) had frcquently aP}!,earcd 1~ these appeal cas<'·7>, he would let. t;1om. kno'i what was thG nroccdure. Ongmall.y, ad the evidence w"as tah•!1 in rhorthand when the complaint w a~ made by the department against an officer. .\VlFn that officer ap­pt:tled he had a r1ght to be represented bv ca'unsel or solicitor, or both. The appellant c~mm<-nced his ea,e, and went into the witness-box. He v,as sworn, and his evidence was taken down and read over

Han. J. W. Blair.]

840 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

to him bv a clerk, who t0ok the evidence in ~hv_.:_thD:nd. T~1e appellaiTL had aL C)po.> tumty. of correctmg r or .1dding to it viva vocB m tLo box. Cc.cmsel cou:d qu£ 'tion hirn and dicit further f:;;~·t ., and get hi~-tl to complete his story. Then the witnesses wer" c~IIecl for tho appellant. Each one \vn.s sv.-orn, his evidence taken do\vn in shorthand and r :ad ove,· to hid, and they coutcl be c:·o~s-ox;..:.tnined b~T tl1c coun:0l, or Lwyer, ,-;ho r-. presented the Railwa, Dc­pLr;-· . .:...rmt. \"\:'hen thE c:J.·-.,~ for the appeliBnt W.:.t..;_ c~nch~r~---d, t!1~~ _ tL.;;pr.rtnl~L~'- c_~te f~)I~l-

f'-l?ec. r~h0 CVld;._-~.1(~ :·..hKP 1 (~JIVH 111

slv1 ,_~), __ _.fi. u:n.~ r-~ 1d , nd C1,_ \ it?;c · -r: l1-"d ~ .cif'lf._ t..; n~.1d to -~nytl .. i_ng tlw} \Vas gtv. tl 0~1 o;:_-, .1. 1-L y \-v·-ro ;•,tbJ"-'~1- to Cl\

!..:.~;:_:_ re--_1:-iou ~.· t~_._2 <·p; 1 ·llr,n<s ,re: F "~tt . .t~ trvc. \\ h~~n t LJ '--"', ; '¥1'as conc...t·c,. d for tL ·. dt_parhnont, :"lO app~ ~lant cvulJ br ~-' '\.rd in ,_, ~Jly, ard. frc~:h -wit:.m-;f'Q, n1fif'ht be called on ei~Lcr sit~c. T.:__:.o full£~' t lntitudo 'rva-;; ;:;i\ --·n in order that the cat\~ .:. .. 1i-·:ht bo fu 1l::' thr,: 'hcd out. Ai'Yr i :,,,t,, cuvunsel audn'''ld tho board, rmd the:- retired, .tnd a:tel"l arch gave their d cisicm. The hon. m<mbcr for Queenton seem• d smprised that the b.Jard Cduld increase tlw penalty. The board h .. d full power to deal just!;, with the whole case. Th,•v could dismiss the appr :1!; they r mid make a rc,•umnwnuation for a m•n ho lPd bu•n di .mi-. c-i from the i'Onice to b' I"in,:L.tr,,d afVr a cc.l'tain t•eriod of tirll 1; or, if he had been fined, they could Fduce •ihe fine, or the:- 'mid cut out the fino alto get\- r, U'1d L& ', that the pETiod of su 'lWn"i'JJl he had suu:er(_ d \, U8 enough.

Jir. \VIN'-''L:.xLEY: Can flJ, rncrt-.._1 ¥~ the pemlty?

The REf1I:.LTA.R'l FOR pnnLIC r~­

".THUCTIO'\ : Yes, thr coultl incrc '"'' it. Tlv-~ san1e pc-\YP<· v, .as _;iYt t to the b0urcl to do jueticc. Ii thr _ thot,_ht tL.-, ccppclhnt vvas leni:·L1t. tre~ted, they t duld inrrc::sc the plm.lt.i, and the o:l(cn- took that ri·-k wh~n ho aiJT'"·l~--d. Thn bo.ir<l could n1ak2 ".such ordrr u.5 it t~~·)ughL ilj_." It \Y.-:.:. onl .... ,~ r"tion.d f,) "i .·e power ) tlle court of apDF.-:11 ~,have power to rc -u,-" and to havE' the ccrre'ative power to inc'-oasr-. Although Llw board had that powe-r, it was v.r,y sddo; 1 ex·_ reisGd. Hn had been in many ~ !Jt'f~al r:-c" ·!S, r:.,l LJ knew :hat the bo" r~{ ahv'l.ys l;o~·e indinc£_1 ~o len:i( ·:ry r •,th-er tha:n. t-. B"' . ..:ritv.

The SECHBTARY FOR RAILWiYS: Onlv in t-.,·o case -J \V,.-_-; tl. pu11i h. 1< nt inci'ta -·d.

1h·· SJ~CR:GTATIY FOR PL~I:LIC I~>J­STB " 1~r .... I?::\: . Thr bo._.rr-: :1::td :(~11 po·.~.·~~1:­tn Call frf'~,l \VL :1c~ _:: a::_.d b __.!,1' L1c· \\hol-e

•r de novo. T:::e ho:n. 1nen1h- -.~ for itudc -v~ ll -p ··h-e i t:,o ·ub- ._itute .. t,

Di, ~l ·... C ur~ j ,d .. o for a pol~cc n-:acri. -tr ~e, bnt. ~h·.t ·, __ n-.J:! t~" in~r .. J-- 1. ~·:;1-

'J:lher~ Ci'0 onlv th."'.:_·;] J)i~b·i Co:_n '. juc~[;F:~ in 0.ut _ .. -lr-~T .. 1. a·,td • Laving L) :r.tt.- 'ld t.-} cri1,1ir~al and civil courL:-:, their ti:tne y·a f:. fully t:1k0n up. Thcrt}· ~_, a r-olit; n··~>:'is­trat.Q in cv·0ry to~ .. n, r.; d l'.~ ~.--·,us :.l ,ty~~ a.v.•.i1ab1P, a.nd r1 th,. ... _.. '· c:c·c .~{!irl: ··t it W' s thought th>tt t)Iey would m3ke ;,etter mem.­b- rs o~ t!-·.c trib1F:~L If a Distr:,·;t Court judge· wa~ snb,'i-tutod, it vc'ou!d cause delay, and ."ct har:hly a[,.:tin;.t the ernp: :y0-~s in the :-ervice. 1S'h~n the 1n~;n asked fvr a l)h•triet Court judge, tlw0 did not know what the:y were asking. \Yith re<prd to the qnf'·>tion a~d\.\_'J hy ::w han. L1Cc'._1lY''' for Q::~f'nto'h. about a ocmnotiv~ engineer ~itdng en at':l.

[Hon. J. W. Bla,io-.

appe:.l m which he was iutcrec. ed, that could not hr.ppen. 'l'he case would be sta1 ted by the Traffk Branch, as somebody ; ad to initial•o ·ihc c lf'E.

hfr, \VrNSTA'iLFY: 'Uo you co:ofirm the opini'?n of the Secretary for Hail ways?

Tho GECRET.ARY FOR PUBLIC IN-STHUCTIOX: He w ... s of opihion that u~~LlP · )ut-. :, · tse Loccrnoti·. e l~ngin0er \YG:ll(l 1.0t sit on FPI_,:.-::.;:1 if L8 \".e·r. in-ten,sLcl. Xo one ·, duid , it on an c.ppc..ol be c rd if he '·ore interested in tl'·"' clr- i·-ion. 'Th.-~ ..... _v, he Llll')t Le a n1a.L1 w1:') ~--!.·.·· not tho he .d c. ;-1,_ br .ch in ' hi~h l .. J "~'c' '!I •nt

~ ~,:~~~~pl~:-~~:lr~t -~ ,_,i~i~~;:gi~ .,.,-~;;~ \:~~~~;~~~-~d t be L f:~.ir ti<-_, l. 'I,he l'cadi. ; of :::ub___,lause ('~J . f,olL) - tl::! , _·l in th•· origiJ1al _ \ ~ t, wlncn, '" far . s 1,e had giY~n a ,;reat d~al of "'-'\.is£ action.

Mr. :CO\V~.f.\.~'i': _\.ftcr hearing t':v ex­plnnati~n of thL' Sf-'"::'ret~n·J for Pu\bli;-, In­sbruc,io·,, and kt.rninU' of the delay there might r ~ssibl, be if apchlals were he,;.rd by a Dietrict Court judge, he did LOt intend to prePo his amc.ndment.

l\1r. KIRWAN said the subclause applied to tho [-a1, ieular he-1 i of n bra·-·ch in which a n1tHl \·;.ts Pmployed. That V; "' to ~>' -·.y, if an ongine-driYer w~:J suvendcd, th,-~ C:jef ]\,'le~b;,nical Ergineer would vot be able to Pit o·, th,. hoc· rd, but it diJ not prevent the Generai Tr, flh Mana("er from sittinc··

rLlF' f..!."C'::,~TA~Y ro:-: R\lL'"~.~,TAY._:: It due:. not Iollow that tho General Trai!ic :vlanag•''l' Y~ i~l sit.

\fr. l{If?.~'\~A:::\': ~,~ long· ~~hct y~£:.', fully undc rstooJ, it would be all right.

The SFccRETARY FClR R •IL\\'AYS: It is nnder­Ftood.

::llr. KiRWAN: If a locomotive man was suspended, and the su• pension had rd._r.::nce to ''Omething of a technic:"'l nature, was 1t a fair thinr; th:J.t th"-' 'flraS.~13 l\Ianr ·:rer shou 1d sit on such ·a ct> .e? If it was a question of a technic..! nature, it ,·onld be advisable to have ;mnem.e , ittir:Q' on the board who would posses~ the knowledge to weigh the e\idence and ~ ~;:arninc nny witneEd vvho 1night be called.

The '\K• r rARY FOi.. H ,ILWAYS: The :Main­i::)nance Engineer.

31r. KIRY{~~J>J: If L1e 7;,f:ti:t ~ •nance En.­gi"ccr ''auld be the ofii;;ial to tr ke up the IJOsition in ~refcrenc... 1:o th,_· G9n2ral Tr[1ffic l\lant'ger, then 4·h::- o~jr 'ion would be re­c~ut -· d to ~t IninimUlil.

f,..-r, \YIK6T_\,~LEY: 'J.lJ c:r0 -·~ n{'~ "She sl:i~htl-t ZtOubt n]·_t, ,:;s f:1r ;, •Le clause

· concer· 1 rnh t~lC I.)< 11- .·Jive: Supcrin­te:"do:lt- w;o, ikh,,-;-red from -,.~~.ing· '"' the boartl. It ">'8 not a ;..~:1, :;ti~_,n ci \'.·nat ought 1-·l Cr r\JILJ, or \\-L t ~',;/~ ~ l ~ c~..._mc, •.\U.S

a L~J.. -:~tic~ ... \ f \vhat. had br·nn done. Tl1e f::.Er,,, ..• 'R::- FO""" B ·-:L-'.':A . .,: ~:urE.-~~ J ou

v.-onld no'. so.v ofiir'-lc hayo btdl >it'ing on cr "S in ~;v~1i· ~1 1.\· .. \r ,.,,~;re inter:-:c.~:·d I ·\\~~1y f.h .... ~: J t!1ey? ~

':fr. \YINSTAXL"'OY: A< -1ordi"s to the p~aiJC undisputable rrr,J.in!C7 of the cbuse, the General Tr-tffic :'Y.I~,n, ,-cr ":>s nc' debarred from sitting, and ic \~o':ld be onl0• a sense of ju.•· 1:i0e on his o" n part that '·ou!d prevent him from sitting.

Tlp s~ P~1\RY rOP RAIL'vAYS: Suppose I say he chonld not ,:t and shall not sit?

Ra1lways Bill. (6 AUGUST.] Railwa0Js Bi!l. 1541

:.lr. WIKSTA:'-JLEY: If the han. gentle­man said "he shall not •,it," it would be satisfuctory.

The SEcr.sL\:1Y FC•R R nLWAYS: I ay he shrdl not.

Mr,. WI::\;:;T~>=·'LEY then moved the in­St'l'tic,n, at thP cr~d '-JJ. linB 31, tJat::e 10, of the ''meL, " 'l'he ,. 'c "ta,·y sh Jl g·i ve to the appcP..tnt k .~ .-,,;vc:n LlayE' nc:~ce C'£ the d; ,.~ when t:w appo.•al •.··ill l:s heard."

The SECRET-~RY FOR RAILWAY"\: lf tho hon. n1ernber r:·'1lly t~rOP .- h~ the alnen(~­u:cnt '-\ .ts : ecet: 1l.;r, he had no obj~·>JLion to it; t..r~ he · 01:ld point out tha-I- 1: ~~ -'ji:i.I._J it Vn.,S d:t~lCL~u lOl' f "-~ C·aci~->:., ~;:ho h •d c:lal'~J of •'PP .al u ..... Hu 1

', to gi. e a full r--3c. en d~:.:ys' notice . If \1 -~· r ,L in ·~ ven dn .. 3, :: .nd ; "a de it a h?,r\~ anrl-f~.st rule, t.hPn t.hey t.Quld n?t nF•.ke It 1 :!s un_,er ~-ny u·Lunj_ GPncc _, r:_t all, ~n~.1 .. i' mi ~~t b~ ~~10 3 _ cJ. -~oi~g an in-.]Us .... rc _ J a~ ,l ;)r·"llr'.':~, kc:J1}r..;_ ::hun under str'JCnsion for a l·, g0r V _-.::ir ,-1 !~~1an might p~~l· :l be t1,e n ·c ot!Jer~.'i e. Sufficient notic, wa·, ah1 ,J.ys gi, 0n to the appellant to appear, and L0 instruct his re~r<contativo in hi9 cL;€nc•J. He was givrn to understand that in ordina1y courL oi juF-.tice four days' notice \Verc given.

Y~0

r:;,. -.:TANL:~y: Four duys' notic~~ ;rill J'le ju,t a.: \wll.

The SEC'RETATIY FOR RAIL\YAYS: If tb,· bon. member y,._.!ld mekr it four rla;yo, it would lc:J in the int.Jre·'ts of app<llants.

11r. \YINST.Al\~LE1..~ rnoYcd to alter the time of noL-ce to four da;; s. He "'t sur­p,.i··<ed to 1-"ar tho l\Jini. tor r·.,y th.ct guffi·iont nutice h:cd alwc.ys be~n given, bcc.nF.e he knc·/,- a:) a 1r,.:-; .. .Jr c< f[c~t that lJfiicient notice had no~ alw~ys been .;nen. ~'>.mondment af,'~eed to.

lv:l'r. KIRWAJ:\ said hf• had stated last night, on cert-ain imormathn supplied to him, th •t noty ith·:tanding thot the Com­mi .'Jioner hud ir·-u0d o, general order about tvro ., ~,.',:rs "~·o LhJt all re:ords ,_;rou1d be desh::oy;: l and that eVf'i'Y offi.,:ial in the di.·­par:me.tt wvuld start fro-n that elate with <1 c],c,m rheet, it appeared that tho;" rtcords \VB~~ u.. ,-:1 ;:t ordin;;:try depart-nent.d in­quU1'' Et.t d r~ 0 on t...p):.: l C'o1 t :a- . Jio l\ ,uted t' knO''' whc .her the :10n. gentle­!" ;1.n h_,d ~::_y i~ fo·:,n1ation fro·n hj~ officLds re·"·ar·.:;ing it. He honed it as not true bccav" 3 if it ""'·.Cr9, it "",_ould he so_:wt:lin; like t~w ~ ~~- htJ-hour day-the Cum_'Jissione~ '·\0, ld ln.v lJ ;<' l;m, to g'lt "·m: lerable ;._._L.JUrt of kudcc: in -conn~:Ji :o> .... ith it, not only hota t'·' ~oneral public, 1mt Hlso from tl-.--; 111'-·l in 0ver.__ r5_~:~o o~ tho fervic .•, -,yho :cn[.t'- ::.+· c! it. He mi·0ht ,_,. ntion for the J\lini r's inim·::w icn that a ca·•e w: .. s tried -in 'mno rLu:ntly at -,·d .. ich an off.·nce <' J:·~.rni;t~1d e=_ .. h; y -·:,r~ previouf: 1y -' .t.s used af::.'-'1 1 3L ~on" c-dclal~ \Yho 1vas re+1eed 1n con­SE·luc~-:..:2. fie 'Vfi<:' ..... L-'~1ared to <:·i,·e the Mi,ister tL· name -rivat~ 1 y. ~

The St~CTIETARY FOR R_1IL\-::.~ ... ~~S: ~'he hc:1. -.~erll '\Ya 1 q1 - -, c-or_._tL.•t i_~ ::,,ying that very EJO'l r tho pr..:.-.s-.-:::lt Cournis·-ioner was :tppoinbd, on0 of the first recon,,nenda­ti.r ns he r..-,ad.o to hin1 as ) Iin:•,t.--1 "'R'1 +hat every man in the dcn1.rt _leL sho ; J ha ye givr,n to him a clE.an -:-:w,,t ';l1at mcunt a veTy biy con( ossian ii· deL J.

:\Jr. KIR"',', AN: 1\Iy '" (\l'f: : i~ did to so~_h_ of .:them.

Tiw SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It extended even t<l cu:,·.<·s in whi-:11 czl8 sheet was dirty with "drunkenness," ·,. hich was probably tlw m<•'·1 serious offence m rculway work. (Hear, hear !) And he (Mr. Paget) gave :;.u a,s:nance at. the tiJ01e that that s!wuld be aboolutely ab1d:"d by, and l_le ha;:I alway.> b<>m under the Improswn till this evening t:1a! no pr-oviou,, offence had been brough~ up at any i11quiry or at any n;ppeal. Tlv hon. membc :· " cured him that It had bcr"l doL in one p,-.rtin1?ar C:l.'.~, and, if t: .. t "·er so, the c ,,pellant had Leen very unju ·U.· t12· teC:. No official 0I the de)Jsrt­n~ent, or __,n~,~ "' _·._· l 1X n ho r_uglJ.t l~HNG b·:cll c1,. 1lm d on ·,he cn'ol, had any nght to _50 ~, }rollJ the re<.-JLtmen-dation.

I,lr. ( w:-rE: Had the boa.d any right to

":,1-t. ICIRT\"A~\: T.id·~ ·,\as a di..f1artmente.l inq1eiry.

'L1c SECRETARY I:'OR R..\ILWAYS: Then r., s:cid that the members of that par­ticular board muet surely have forgotten thuG th·· Con,miJsioner had giv,en that assur­ance. 1·le would d&y that in future the Com­mi><mLr should se~ that it did not happen.

HllNO'JH 'BLE lolE1!BERS: Hea~, he<:r!

Mr. KlR';fA:;\1: He :vas vor;r glad to haye that a~"lUun=:e. It wa' jU .: as ~. ~·-J that. t'le Con.mic;-ioncr shoukt know th <t thmgs IHppenrd in the department of which he was not av an, and h'· hoped that as .a result to': tho di '·JU' ion th,:t hnd. lceen n .s d the offic0r cone erne 1 would take the .broad hint given L·, t:1e Socrd:try for Railways, for he no dOuLt r('ad "I-Ian~ard." Ile had e.n amendment he in!, T.:kd '':> mo-.e, to add .after the ·word " " in li11e 51, _lt_ the end o£ ~-ubt lJ.uso U.G), tollowiug ,.·orct~:-

" and at all such i1:..v -:;;tig,tticnf the Preds s~utll be d ~-.itt '"'d."

II<· pointed out Lefore in the Ilouc-e that he ~: ought that at all departmental .in­quiri, .- .• nd ' . .Jme of them were very lm­~or.Lu.nl-tt Pre""· should Le ~)r-e,;;~,_ut. He

:1eli0vr: d th- v could .._ lY. -\YS tnT L~·· ~~1:<"7 1 ·• I£ t\1:\.· t-:1· u~ 11::- the Ina+,, 'l' ,~ :.s o: lt.H~le~t pu' ,lie< importanc<'. to giv~ .th'? s;':>L3 to It thnt it as entit'~c ! t0, anu 1f It ,,. •s o_nly. a trivi,,J o;lclc". no <1.ou11t they would ~1smi~S it with the ordinar:J pa.mgraph which 1t go: at the presGnt tin~::. Of cour· -;, th~y lme·.o that the Press c.t pre' ent had to take the L.o.c3 ,uppli,,d by th· .d )art'.ne:.t, to the ehe~t-svv, that a c ,rtam ,s·uard he1d ap­P''-'lc: a,,oinst a. clccision and that t~e l oard hat~ up~,, lei_.. cl; --;mis·~.vd, or oth:rvL:.se <..tc:It --itl i·!, aL: Jr b -~aru;.g tho evrdence. He though~ that in view of the fact that ~he dep~r~-.n,_nt hU-d altrv ed ! heir r-o]i: ,,. \Yh1ch :_!_i+' ~ J ex. ~·L.od of having clo, -~d .r1oor? at inquir iJs, in thB case of the inquiry to fmd :-·ut ',··_ly lYl('ll \Vf"'lt 0Ut 011 r.tri~.e, although the·~ >.· e · ('·_w L:e:l '·' ho h, 1 :1-'0l~.J good 1, ':'on ;.)r thinkin;; th.:t Fas not the rool Cu]t~,,1-__

'1. - 'iE'T·'· ·:. -·on PrnLr'.'~ IxsT~ rrcTION:

Th;t '""' '·~ot <~ll inquiry or appe"l. ::\1r. _i\:".IR~VA~,;: The hon. r.:. F110er \vould

alJpiGci :~o tho fact th.,t at no previvus i~quin' "'"e the Pr· .s ,,d;.1itt··.J and there were ,·,o more rea,or:s at that tin1e.

2\ll'. Bow ;lAN: It was for political pur-pG6C'3.

Mr. KIRW~1N: He had no he,hation in agreeing with the hon. member for Fortitude Valley that it was for political ;mrposes,

11-fr. Kiru-an.]

842 Railways Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

but it w.as a sort of boomerang .arrangement that hit baek where it was least expected. Suppoe<J they to0k an inquiry into such an accid•_•nt as that at Murphy's Crf'ek. He thougLt that if the officials had seen fitG to make an -~ppeal again_s~ the disrating, .and also agamst the deCision, the public would have been justly entitled to know through the columns of the daily Press, th~ full conduct of that case. He contended that ,in a case like that the public v~ould be entJk J b the facts, and they would have to rely on the Press, if thev were c.dmitted. ;:'h~ knevr that in the_ ,case of the inquiry .ct .Lc.owoomba, the Bnsoane l:'r--ss went to c?nsidewble ex'c_ense to_ ~ive .a vm·y fair and a ole summary o, the PV!uence. He, therefore, moved the a2!w'ldmen1 which he had road.

-~HZ SECRETARY FOI:, RAIL\VAYS: T~rs. Yas ,a s,ub

1j_eet which had camed a very

{Slf:,_Lt "al o_ .. c,I,·~J- · lC'_,L on tt_~~ cond rP,Ld­'':!l' of the Bill. ·,, :r0 n the k d--r of the Oppo­sitton lnoveq, G.n .Ulll~~mdrnt.r~t. r_rhe t=dnand

d1F.'"l L>Hi.C by T il_p hnn. mem!--n-·"1 S

[lOp.m.J Of.-.,itn ''"' tl-1. the Press -

1-:ould be achnittoJ to all in-9uiti0><, r: n . .i he thPn_ too~::: b1o objection that 1t W<-·tld 1:. t L, rig:," th,,t ,n the pc~cadil­loe'' Gc t',fl f np 1 'n~·}S in ill'l Hailwa·," Dc­part<\h'n+ ,,_hirh (,',_dled for a, departrficntal inquir · :Jw, ld be p .. b'ishod by the Prc,s. He 8:1-~d 1 ~!'..1~ 1 i£ ~. nu.n :; c_harged \Yith ~Olll8 'L-.f'l't;hctiOll of a~,(y, hF· dirl_ not think 1t was [air d1at all hi·. fri·~ndH ou(:3ide the d8par>c.ccJt shu 1ld kPCJW that ho had been fin eel Ol' s·· ) •nd :d. r_rho d~rnand_ Hl-LdB this evenin~l· ht.-d b.Pdl very much trinu:,ed do~n1, and no•;;- 11h--' \Yt\ro only a·::Jced to adrnit the PreH to ell Pittings of an ~1.ppc11 Bo:trd. That ''-"' quite a diffn-nt matter, and he vvoulcl, hus~ .. n:uch l,IeasP_re in accepting tho Rl11CLL l118llt.

0PPOSITIO;s- MEo!BERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. KIRvV.\J'\ could hardh find words to expre-~3 i.ls aplJrl>>i .. ttion of -:·~,"t; fact that at last t~e .. \Iinir,~<r had seen fit to accept an amPt d:.:1ent L·OYed Ly the Opposition. (Laughto·.)

.. :llY:'-"~.)nient ag; .:::d to.

Mr. lL\.RDACRE: Th cla·>se proviued that tlw h0 .tel '>f tho branch in , .. , hich an apr··Ilant was cn:pluyed -,,as prohibited from stt,mg on t!le Appeal Board, but the head" of t1!e y.·;riou.: brun("ht' "\VPro loca;crl in Bris1: !!18. Th- rvr oon who llhould be nrc­vented from itting o.~ the Appeal Board '~''·as the he.ad of tlw branch in the division in l:hich the appellant was empl'J\Pd. He did ~:..~~ >al;:, to move an amendffient, but the "umt-'.er should ,;-'lt9 that the offiuial who ''"as debarred from sitting on an appeal was not the 1H~ad of the branch in Bri3bane but the head of the eli-, ision in whi· h the appellant was employed.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS said he had tried to make himself perfectly clear. He w':'nt so far as to say that, if an emplm ee m the Loco:notive Branch was tompor:n·Ily under the Traffic Branch, the head of thc Locomoti: e Branch and th<- head of the Traffic Brandt would both be de­barred from sitting on the Appeal Board.

Mr. HARDACRE: That does not touch my point at all.

The i::\ECRETARY FOR RAIL\YAYS: Subclame (1) reads-

" Every uppeal which undpr this Act may be made by an employee to the

f11lr. Kirwan.

Appeal Board shall be made to a board which shall consist of eight. members, namely-

" Three pBrsons holding for the time being thP offices of Chief Enginoor, Chief Meclunical Engineer, and GenBral 'rratlio Superintendl·nt in the Southcrn divisi·Jn, or the ofii<':'S of General Trallic lYiunager, l\1v,inh nancc Engin,::c:·, and Luco­l~lot.i-,·"-7 Engineer in t£.;0 Centr..tl and J'\ortiH.·.n divi,.ion" rc;1ectively;

"A police magistrate, v. :.o Fhall be ap­point-ed by the Governor in Coun­cil for c:cch of tlw divi,ion:, of the St.1to; and

" Four cmployet- -i; herein c.:.dh.'J rt> f pertivPly the ' '.,lnp1;;yees' rPpre­·tmtatives,' who shall be <el~1:ted for <-·acli of th<0 divisio11s re~pec­tivol} o£ thP State.

" (2.) The hoard, when sitting for the purpo-)e0 of o.n;." app(-,.tl, r:l1,dl be nonl­pooed of the police magiouBiD aforcsa,id, one of the aforc-c~id otliroro of the Com­mi~·~ioP-{"r who is not tLf~ h~,tcl oi the­branch i(.L "\Yhich the a1· 1,. lbnt 1··· &;nl­

nlcn,,:'\d." ::\'[~·. irARDAciCE : \Vho i' the he~d of the

branch except thp offic3r in Brisbane?

Tho SECRET \.RY FOR R \TL \YA YS: The head of thc> b1 n-d1 was the had of the branch in tho diYi~ion in -.,-;nich the appellant was employed.

Mr. lLRDACRE: I:. doe:; not say that-that is the point.

Th·" SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: If it di-d not say that, then neither he nor any other hon. member exce;)t the hon. mem­ber for Leichhardt was able tD read the subclause corr<·cdy. He had b··en trying for the L>· f two ',cars to frame a claus'c which w0uld be on-e' v;hich met the wishes of the v,chole of the cmplcyees of the Rail:-vay J?e­partrnent, und the clan', 0 unt.:L.'r discussion did th,\t.

Mr. HARDACRE said he was sorry he had not made his position clear. It was quite clear from th0 clause that only one pereon Wu3 debarred from sitting on an appeal, n.nd that Wi19 tho head of tho branch in •vhich the appellant was employed. The h·-·nl of the Locomotive BLmch, the head of th.__,. Enginep~·i.::tg· B1'-1nc!1, and th,·, head of 1~1e Traf!ic Bran<Jh '' ~ re all in Bri&Lanc.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That refers to the hetcd of th._. branch in the division •.-here the appeal is made.

Mr. H .. \.RDACRE: The clause ought to sav that; but if the Minister a<,sured him that that was what was intended, he was satisfied.

Chm"'' as amended, put and passed. Clauses 31 and 32 put and passed. Mr. THEODORE baid he wished to move

a new '.llause which had been citoulated in tlw narnc. of l he han. member for Barcoo, Mr. Ryan. Hc mowd that the follm1·ing ne\v cLu.~~ h_~ in, ·rt.Gd after elau. ·~ 32:-

" There shall bo constituted a com­mittr·o, consisting of such number of members of the Legislative Assembly and chosen annua!lv in such manner as the Standing Order-, of the Legislative Ass' mblv Fhall provid0.

" vVhenever the approvtcl of Parliament is proposed to be sought for the construc­tion of any railway, copic:J of tho plans, sections, and book, of reference of the·

[6 AUGUST.] Railtoays Bill. 843

same, prepared as next hereinafter pro­vided, and :1lso of the statement and report of the Commissioner transmitted to the l\iinister as hereinafter provided, shall, before the same are laid before Parliament, be submitted to euch com­mitteP, It shall be the duty oi i,uch COJWllittEe to <'nnsidcr all r,uch docu­ments so submittPd to it, and to report to tho Legislative Assembly upon the proposed railway.

"In ord<:r to <:mabie b'1Ch cummittee to make such rerJOrt, it shall have all th0 powers and authorities of a Committee of Parliament. and may also require the Cor.~.nniHionor or anY officur of the ser­vica t<> furnish the{n •. , ith any furtlHlr ftatmncnts or reports."

Tho object of this •Jew ulause v. as to eotab­Iish ·what WdS k:.1o,.,. ,1 in other Statf.:·.) as a "Public \\·or:::.s L\.nnn1ittee/'

'I'he t',~~l::.rARY FOil RAILWAYS: Oh, no. I should like· the hon. member to cloarl.\ define what ~,he. new clause means.

Mr. THEODURE: That as ptecisely what he propo.:JeJ to do. 'Yht:t \Yas intended V\ as to set up ,,;)lnethiu~o similar to the body thto_y had in 1'-T C\V South \\ ales under the na1ne o£ a Public \Vorks Uonnnittc2, the only dif­fereme being that tho New South Wales Public \Vorks Uonnnitte0 had wid,\- r pov~'tH'S than was proposed to be gi\,cn to th" com­mittee to be established under this n," clause. The l'ublic Works Uommittee in New South Wales de.alt with railways and othu public works, [,ut he only proposed that the Queens­land :Parliament should set up a committee whose iunctions would be to investigate and report upon all new £aih·;ay proposa:R, c') a~ to eliminate as far as possible anything in the nature of political influence or inter­ference in connection with proposals to build new railw,~ys, and at the .'ame time do ~ome­thing which might po,,sibly lead to the abolition of tho benefited area or guarantee system as we had it in connection with the construction of new railway' in Queensland. If this s;ehellle was adopt~d, there would then be no furthPr need to build.,railways under the guarantee principle.

The SECRL£ARY ];'Oil RAILWAYS: The people you repr<:sent do not wish to pay their ju'" due5. ls that it?

Mr. THEODORE : He did not know that the hon. gBnU:,man' under:::tandin.s- of plain English was different from that of any oiPer person's, and he \\as confident that no com­mon-sense individual could ·draw any mch conclusion from anything he had said ·Jn tl·e subject. There was no such su,;gestion in wha2 he proposed or in what he had said. The object of the ciauso was merely to set up a commi1Lee which would do something that the guarantee principle was intended to do, and that was to diminate political in­fluence from any proposal to build new rail­ways. Under the guarantee principle it was laid down that thG persons in any district where a railway was to be built should guar­antee any deficiency in the earnings of that particuhu· railway. If he had some thoroughly impartial and comp~tent tribunal charged with the duty of inve,oigating fully all new railway proposals and of making reports on such railways to the House, m{"mbers could act upon such reports without any fear that a railway would be built where no railway was wanted, and without the necessity of requiring unnecessarily a guarantee from the

people in the district where i~ was proposed to construnt the railway. Whrlo the guaran­tee principle might have been gcoJ in i_ts ,~eneral working, there was no doubt that_ rn somf! cases it impos<d hardships on struggling sdtlers. ·

Tho SECllETAllY FOR RAILWAYS: E~pecia!ly in Eacham.

~.lr. THECJDORE: Eacham ''as one in­stance where it had imposed a Lurden on sPttlers.

Thr, SECI:ETARY ,C,JR RAIL\\'AY~: Where the p,-·oplv wt- ".'e only too \Villin '0 to accept that burden unLl the\' fotcnd \,l•d it meant.

:Ulr. TI-lEODORE: ThA l{;Iih\..tys 1Guar­ante1 Act _,,iaS t:1e only ~\er under ~->.hich thc~­co•,:dd ~:v.:t e.~ rai~'YaJ buil", ~~n,J they WP1'0 not proi_)c~ing to jh.!rk thE'ir burdens nv ,v. Th~ s:c ... Rr·.._ "RY FC::1. RAIL\V'(j Uh, ~FCS, they

are. ::.Vl1·. THE0DORE: No dou:,t they .asked

Parliament to r-eview the whole question, but the ratepay0rs of Eacham \Vou1d not r<',1udiat•' th, ir oblig-ation to the State.

The Sr:ci:EfARY Ivll R',ILWAYS: ThGy have been tr.) ing to 5'fhirk it for son1e tinl 11' past.

Mr. 'l'HEODORE: He did not think so. Still, he tl•ought it wa3 not a ;:air thing that an enormous burden should be placed upon certain people in the St..ct0, when rail­ways had been built in other districts without t "1::;- ·.uch Lurden Loing in1poHJd on t~~e pvJple, interer'ied. If all no\• railway proposa]JJ\ were referred to men posse,·.ing a good prac­tical knowledge of the requi;·ements of the State, r.nd they nwd~ an impartial report on the lims submitted to them, members could act much more confidently on that report than they could on the information which '' cts now placed heiore the H >u-ie in con­nection with railway proposals.

'l'he SECRETARY FOl\ RAILWAYS : Do you think the amendment covers the quc>tion of railway districts?

Mr. THEODORE: He did not know "hether it did or not, but the princirl<> of the u.tl10nchnen·~ \\ t~, advptcd; they c: uld an1cnd it to n:eet 8.,1:,' ol>jection that might be rabe,l on 'L~ it ground. The anlentilnent had boen rn0vcd for th purpose of getting an opinion fro1n the House on the n1ain prin­ciple of the BilL The questcon would nood clc,hate, as tho question on the establish,ment of a committee such as this was "" very import:1.nt one

The SECRLJ._tR--'. FOl~ I<.AILV, AYS : It is a par~ liamentary committee.

Mr. THEODORE: A parliamentary com· mitteP, for which he claimed practically tho f.am.._, :Jower,,, vvhieh 'vere conferred upon a simila1; commitke appointed in New South \<\ales. If necessary, ho would amend the amendment in order to me.ke it more clear. \Yhat he desired was that the committee should hav,, full power to make inve~tiga­tions-vi,it the di~trict where thr ra1lway was proposed to be built and take ev_idcnc'!, intPrvio-..v local residents, and makB Investi­gations in every possible manner-more com­ple~'l investiga:ions than could be made by the Cornrni---,ioner for llailways in connec­tion with any propm·al under the present RC!.ilwavs Act. He de-c,ir~d tho committee· to have· rocope to sit not only v.hen the House was in session, but during the recess also, and to bfl cluched with the amplest power ~a­get eYery ifern of in£ornation that was avail­able. It might be said that, if they hung

Mr. Theodore.]

'844 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] SpeciGl Ad,iournment.

up all thf> railwaY propos,;ls till this pro­pc<c-d commit'e" could invc,ti?:,te th_c ques­tion as thor~ tghly as he 'vas indic:tting, it would mean a delay in th,, building of cer­tain railwa} >; but once the mw,ndrnunt was adcpted there 'ould be no delay .. t all. lk~viewing the hi~: >ry of the ,;,gi~ation for all t}_e railwn,' that had l oen built in Qu ... -_-: :.':,end fro~m the inf.>Jpt.ion of the r::Lil­" '-': s, ·! ~1o evidence showed tr c the agitation cmn~-~~·mccd in ,:::.. 'tno ca-> .. r; ""Cdrs b· fore tho rail-r_\DY •--~s uEinkt~1y bail{, find in aln1o··t ctll c.· c : t lc."t for a :·e, __ r < ,. h o : Lus 1vh~-·re 'l .. ::J n1ost exr;. litiv_' . r_·; r:-:ercisod in the b11ildiT;"o; c t'l_ r '~il . Tht ~·o 1 r'3 no case of a raih.:y ~ oing buiL in Quc0r•Jland i_,u-1; in ;vhich ~l1o:..a hc~-~ IL.'e-2rtir~arv 0~.-~\--~+io~ .c'JVt: i ... lff a peri~d :~t<ln_y ll10l:! ~/''. Dl~· ... cr tnrs a1n ,ld-r- ~~, i:1o Lgitatlo::. ... \,O'J.ld

origln:·tc~ in t~ -d s<.ane \Yav a- hithertJ bv tho~.B intJrest~-,J in the building o£ tL. rail­way-~ho loc <.-1 r<:-Jh.~.Gnt·~. ~\ftor -lihe a.gj{ <,~ion J1~1d l'/'~Chod a st.-tge FU>hcient for IJUblic noti;;e 1 ::> be ~,ken of it, the ):{;•.:.ister (>)uld refer the pror: osal to the com' ,iLe,' proi;O'·, cl to be ''kl.Jlished uncl2r the :.mc-:.0rnent. It might take six mcnths l 'Lw ·cheY made their report to Parliamr but it wuuld be time wdl emr•l -ycd in · intorc ; 0£ tLe St :tc and of the d, 'Jar, ·neu itself. So long as this COH1Ynitt<e ~vas be_. ond corrap­tion-,n~d he thvlght, if il ,_.,as dis ;r-·etlv chosen lro1n l.iJ:--nlb8rs of the I-!ou G frori1 tin~e to tine, they ne·r d nv~. que..;t;on ihat aspect of Lh~ n1 ~H--·r-an 1 so long a·. it ".:Is irnpartial an··I aliYe t' i,,- r.·-;po:csi' ,;r<"ies it \Yould :)ve a l''·:)or/- on .all r.:tih:·~~-:· pr0~ posaL", on which the) could >.ct promptly.

T:,e- SElctEnm~ FOR R cn;vdld: Arc the m<,mbns to lJ,, honorary ofEc_,rs?

Mr. THEODORi:': Xo; t',cy were to l e rmnunt.l·qted. '.fhL--7 cm·\_l not as~:;.: thr1n to perfonu the duoit-·'1 ·whid1 1vould i,e cast upcn them, and to n;_·;.:1.",ct, tJ a. c·-:..rtain t', .. :!•nt their orJinar:\" duties unll·· tho-., were 1·0mu~ ncrc,Jed. ·

Tl'.:· l"EC'HI:i'ARY I ·J_:.{ H ~L ·".U think this i.> in orJer?

Do yua

JUr. T:H:~ODOl-ti~: I-Ie r'1Cl. nc,i know "\vhether it \Va.; in order-th(· '7 could con­sidf" th:·t o[;,,·t -Jf t]w '(1-L' io:I-b.r:, it '--CS

well thrt the c, ll tion ho,:]d b." comiderP l here. I£ tl1e lL'Pl't_~f'nb Liv~"'_ of ;_l_,: Gov-or:.:.­m,---;\t .~~,7e.l.; il~]pH3S··''? ""~" i~!1 t;.Lt' LCCf' AiJ .of esta~JhshL!.c: t·ns n~c:.x:o ... ~ 1n plr.::;e ,_f tb. shp­sh( a f_ :.1 c bu3l ii1~s r . .il\\ 2, s ULcler the

r:·in--ipl;, :~_:-"/ could take UJl t~e l-Io h2J no 0osi 'J t•) ';r~·s the

a.l .. :-1':-.u:,tncnt in , :1~,~. r_or1p, so long ~ .. 1 the princi·1l \Yil .;~h, .)I:_ ~1: l.

1!!o Srr ~:.::.. '\:'.Y FOR r U.::."\v.~y·-~: I :.,uppo.'"~ kno1, 'hal t:"e Pu: lie W01:;3 CorLlittee

.c~~~~i:~1 --t·-, '"~ '3 is '/·_:_)p: inlf_·l u:l\.~e·· a

Mr. ·_;_'_HLODORE: It ', F: ':j)l''Jintccl nuder a '"·pr:;ih::; ._-\ __ t. be,:J.U'B i:, ._',l.lt .v'ith oT~~tl .. thin;:-s t::. n railw. The a .. neL,~lDt::..:lt -,:·as 1~1nved i:.1 .:.his f,:.e: ... l 1n: ';·\v ~o '-::t./;~L, h a pri1..· iplc, a, ___ ] eru:....Ie- a ~.l;-•J1-· -io~l to take place. The Lon .. - cdcman r•r,-· 'cl'Y'it that t:F ru 1 ~ /; ·~n " go<J~ d( ·l of dir--atls!.'ac­tion iro-11 ti rlB to ·Hr110 \'l~it~1 the '"\va:v in which r;· ilv, ny nr 'l-DSc,Js h:td bc-,n submitted to the ( ;,,unber.

Th-1 S:.::cR;: rARY l\ 'R R ~:'L IVAYS : And \at the railway pi'CP< .;ls h-:vA all be;·u PD·.~ed.

J',k 'I ;IEODOI:E: H,• recollected i1rat in 1910 ow'.'" ilwo" on]·,- W8nt through by "the l3kn1 o£ h' · .. ~etl1, ., and it was cast out once

[,'if r. Theodore.

when a vote was taken on the money to be voted for it. Han. members on Loth sides had exp"'CS' ,•d the dB ,ire for further infor­rn,:,tion wh( 11 the r,cilway was passed. It was p->,, d by the Cornrnittce--

:\lr. I-I 1 MILTON: ·yvithout consideration or anything else.

Mr. THEODORE: But th~t in no way in­valiJaicc: tho '-'l't;:....nh.:nt ho "\'vas using in the wa'7" O.:.. Lavi~<: 1noro i:::donn;~tion-in f-...ct, a. 1-··.--..~- poli._._,- n](,)[tther ·wit;.: r. :;ard to railway prop1 .11~;. 'l1he present sy'H,ern '-i .:s n1ore ?r 1 J~.·, ha~.~lllZ<11d in re, _:,rJ t0 gu· r-:xL-ee rall-y:, J- '1. I£ ;:; ·;,"it 1{-~ <-_ 1 h. d ~e.Ln sTffici~"1tly i.;:ecn, a,;;~ (·Ci_J .• rtn_·n~ h.__..~i ~Y··_:n harPlEl)d on )U, h b ~ ;y p:.r<.,lcular 1 .. ::ahJLJ or the

~~·ir 0.·\:g.~ Lo ,.:::u~Ld~ t--~'HiL~~l rf~~1 ~.-~~lLCt j~~~~ "'- h- ._hBr it 1ld l\" ·-: DJ.y-a,s to

• .. h tl:e fH "))Jlc in th' kcal:!.}· nould OV.·.r f-·-,~~ Up -t\._eir O~tl;~,;tions in the n1atter. If a prc,po·, l io build a nilvm~· w :s a sound prcpc-.'.1--

'l'he p_.,Jn ARY FOR RAILWAY0: All the in-vectigation in tl.-o wodJ ill Lot make it sounder.

Mr. THEODOI~E: No, but the investig"­tion -;~~vultl -ho\Y "\\hc·th\:l' it \Vero pound or not; hon. :uH -~lbcr:: ', -:r_: oftm1 did not k:lO\V an-:~ ... hi ~- ~bout d rropo dl. Td::::c th.; pro­rJ-. ,,j t~ build ,, r <h ,,y io ::'.Iount ) Tullig-an la~t ycGr. I~ at n~o·. e ~·~:t ... l.._ i- _(,V a doz_r. n ll1Cl·_.~ e· l~,Jsld{ L-:..o j\·_l'li'·l-::.r ~·HO'W aLy­thing a" 'lll c' ·~ut he df ct- of ,he pro­posal.

rrne S!.C'"D"S~'A"-t:-:.. FOR RAH.Y.~A~"'~; L.,..nc1,·r an adv; r·ry COll1L1iL:· J t1-rer(· ~.-/:.;uld I·)~ Le .. twr·' Ll1::.-.n ~ .... tf a doz-.._n n1on "": ho '·;auld kn(nv.

_\Jr. TH:CODORE: fhc advi )ry com­Iniitr•e ·vcu\1 i. ,'"' cha1 ::e:1 \vi·i.1l t}w duty of investig~· ti· '" ~:nd rna1~iL c' a rf .LJort t.J the He-n,,.

'It~.. s~ r·.:.'L\R', FOE R~\""iL\ A'.:..~-: T:le ainend-L1i~nt do~ -:,-·y so.

Thlr. THTODOllr: If 'h' hon. gentleman ·\: • ~.?TE' aL ·_-; t') cr don'-' 1 ~:F : .. inciple, he ~~o:dc~ "'1~. o!1}·"." t,<?~ ?lad to :~.~·po>J.. his :1dvico ~ ~ ho '"OU L·_t .:.::.1tf:tH ~\ LO any a1·q;r .. ".Ion 1n the <>:TIL. --~-_:.lCllt.

l:. E indic, -,d that the han. ruember'~ +i:. _"'{·)11 1 ,J.

1.

pre- lon c +­

un c.r cllc. ,n fro· J-Iou'··-', , (')hlll', ;:: ~.J

i~1£', _d i nn in ~

: I-I · ..-. ould -;.~ 1 further :i1ed to ret -v.- -> a:1 "_'x­in fa y;_,Ul' C r flC' L•'tting - ~t r"ih:n-- : r . ... Ln~~toe

th

' SHles ·Jf the all l;oliti d r 'titu:-ci of

( cf raLv: ..

,. ld

of

1:~,';:) pr:)~~ ,1"~;'::i,\ 1 • :~', "m·,/~~ir I~~-'j;~D~d th-e C 'rt:, .. teo \H u.' . .1. , ~ ur t 1_:3 {n·oposifion whic~1 he 1 1 .cl tnadP

T-:~G l-fo~'.-·~ l(_ x 11"(1

• The CHAL:~."':·\N re­pr·:.J.· d pl·c-·rc r;; 3~~d t~10 C(. lll!itt-ee ob­tained l·_:,r. 3 i _) .it a~ain o~ TuL· :_-._y llt'xt.

DPECI \.L _\DJOT;R::.'r\~ENT.

The PRT '\III'E: I h< 'l' to L0Y' 1 h: t the Hou·'-', c-t its rjqlr-.::_', .1djourn :.-~r1il Tuesday next.

Question put and p_,·vd.

The House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes to 11 o'clock.