Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER, 1927

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

362 Mining Acts Amendment Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER, 1927.

Tho SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bcrtram, Maree) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

COM3!0SWEALTH ScBSJDY roR CANCER RESEARCH IN QUEEKSLAND.

HoN. J. G. APPEL (AJbert) asked the IIon1e Secretary-

" What action (if any) is being taken towards eecuring from the Federal Go­Ycrnmcnt a subsidy towards the further­ance of cancer research in Queensland?"

TJ10 I-IO?.iE SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stop­ford, JI aunt 1U organ) replied-

" The Borne Department has had no intimation that the Commonwealth Go­vernrnent proposes to provide a subsidy for cancer research."

LossEs IK AND CoKCEssroNs To SoLDIER SETTLUIE:>-;T IX QuEE:>-;SLAc\D.

Mr. CORSER (Burnctt) asked the Secretary for Public Lands-

,, 1. Of the total amount of £10,000,000 of losses and conce' '>ions on soldier settle­ment in Australia undertaken by the Federal Government, what is Queens­bud's share of the relief so granted to ihG various States?

"2. What is the total amount actually written off the indebtedness of soldier settlers m. Queensland to 30th June last?"

The SECRETARY .FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gyrnpie) replied-

" 1. Queensland's Share-

\Yritten off Loan Interest Rebate ...

£ 475,000 335,804

£810,804 NoTE.-The Commonwealth loss of

£10,000,000 includcs-(a) Amounts written off loans to States; (b) rebates of interest on loans; and (c) sus­tenance allmYances to soldiers-paid direct by the Commonwealth. " 2. Amount written off soldiers' £

indebtedness in Queensland to 30th June, 1927 294,040

Loss in interest, due principally to State concessions of interest, non-payments by settlers, and for-feitures of holdings 456,911

Losses on forfeited holdings to 30th J U:ne (estimated) 359,000

£1,109,951 I:\o'IE.-In addition, it should be men­

tioned that administration to 30th June has cost the State £314,730."

MAXI21I1Dl ADVANcEs FOR \VoRKERS' HoMES AXD \YoRKERS' DwELLINGS.

Mr. KING (Logan) asked the Secretary for Public Lands-

" \Vhat is the present maximum amount of advance for the construction

Personal E:c,_vlanation. [5 OCTOBER.] Firea1·ms License Bill. 363

,of a "ork ·r's horne and worker's dwell­ing, rrc;pectively, and what is the maxi­mum perc:'nbge, respectively, of total

.tlu · advanced by the State!'"

The f'ECI'l;;'I'AR Y FOH PUBLIC LANDS ".Hon. T. Du>lbtan, G: .• ,pie) replied-

------- --~-----

]..Taximum l\faximum

\Vorker's lJwelling .. y~-orh _r's Ron1e

l'ate of Advance. Advance.

Per cent. 80 £800 93 Kot fixed.

" In tbe case of a worker's dwelling the rai of advance is calculate,d on t'Olnbincd value of land and d\velling, and jn the cn~:,e of a ·worker's home it i:-; calculat· d on capital cost of the home, ·'1e hn,l being prm·icled bv the Crown oa p,_r_,_Jctual leasehold. ~

.. In l--Jth wor};::ers' d"'.vellings and ork -.L·:.-' h01nes the n1aximurn advance

respective _'l.cts is as stated each application is considered

, ancl tho amount of advance <lC:_'Ol'dingly.~·

PAPERS.

Th folly' in~: papers \kre laid on the tabl-e, ,; w.l < cdc ccd to be printed_:-

F}ft ~ ~tth I' •port of 't 11C Public Servic-e :Sup'~rannuation Board;

.Fift:c-first report of the Secretary for l'ublic In,truction.

A'CDITOR-GENERAVS REPORT ON PDBLIC ACCOU:NTS.

The SPEAKER: I would like tD say for the informatiDn of the hon. member for 'Wind or, \\ho sought information as to when the repcrt of the Au-ditor-General on the public accounts would be presented to Parlia­' ,ent, the t we may anticipate it in about a fmt.uight.

PERSONAL EXPLANATIOK.

Mr. SIZER (Sandgatc): I desire, with the leave of the House, to make a personal explanation.

The SPEAKER: Is it the wish of hon. members that the hon. member for Sanclgate should be allowed to make a personal explana­tion?

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. SIZER: In view of the publicity given to an incident in this House yesterday and tho liability for it to create a wrong impr-ession, I would like to say that the hon. member foi' l'ort Curtic has never seen me do a disgracdul thing. I have never been guilty of an act which woul-d lead to such an Pxpression being used by the hon. member.

Mr. C>RTER: You came into this House on one O(A,_:asion "\Vith your coat off.

OPPOSITION ::\1E~IBERS: Oh ! Oh! Mr. BRAND: You ought to be ashamed of

yourself.

:Ylr. SI7.ER: The persistent tactir' of this hon. member in making filthy, low, and

in ulting int.erjections across the floor of the House~-

Thc SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Is the hon. rncrnber referring to the hon. 1nerr1ber for Pod Ctuti ~?

:'IIr. CARTEB_ (Port Curtis): Mr. Speaker, I ri~e to a point of order.

~fr. BB..\.ND: You .are a nice rnan to l'aise a point of order !

\fr. \V Em: The remarks of the hon. mem­ber for Sanclgatc show that what the hon. IHPn1bcr for Port Curtis said was true.

The SPEAKER : Did the hon. member for Sandga te refer to the hon. n1ctnbor for Port Curtis in terrns inferring that he is a filthy, low man?

Mr. SIZER (Sandgate): I was saying that the hon. member's tactics were of such a nature.

The i:lrEAKER: Orcler! Order! Was the hon. mmnb,•r referring to an hon. rne1nber oi this House?

~Ir. SIZER: I n1ust adn1it that I was, ?.1;.·. Speaker.

The bPEAKER: Then that remark must b~--.. withdral\ n .

..\lr. SIZEH: I will ·do so most certain!:·, :\Ir. Speaker. The interjections made by the hon. member for Port Curtis arc always made in a low tone and cannot be hear·d by the prc" or by yourself, lv1r. Speaker, and are, ot a nature which is Yery objectionable to myself and other hon. members. As the hon . member for Port Curtis knows that the remarks he rnade concerning me are untrue in every respect, I ask, him as a gentJ.eman to rectify the wrong which he has clone.

The SPEc\KER : The hon. member for Port Curtis, at my request, yester-day with­drew the remark of which the hon. member is now complaining. The hon. member should know suflicicnt of the Standing Orders to understand that what he has now said is not i-n the nature of a personal explanation.

FIREARMS LICENSE BILL.

lKITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

(.lfr. Pollock, Gregory, in the chair.)

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stop­ford, Mount "tiorgan): I beg to move-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to regulate the sale and use of firearms, to amend the Firearms Act of 1905, and for other purposes."

The object of this Bill is one that will meet with the approval of every member of this House who has followed the trend of eyents in recent years, not only in this State but in other States of the Common­wealth, and indeed in all parts of the world. The advance in the class of weapons available to those who prey on society and the easy concealment of .modern firearms is snch that to-clay, the expenence of the police, not only in this State but in every other State of the Commonwealth, 1s that the hardened criminal or the " half wo·rld"­as the police term them-are in possession of the most modern weapons, such as auto­matic revolvers or pistols, and other weapons which render them a menace to society.

Mr. KERR: What about the razor?

Hon. J. Stopford.]

364 Firearms License Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Firearms License Bill.

The HOME SECRETARY: I am attempt­ing to legislate on a very important matter. The man who meets you with a razor gives you a sporting chance if you have a stick; but the man with an automatic would give no chance even to a hero like my friend, however big his stick might be. It is proposed under this Bill to endeavour to take- some method of control of firearms that are defined under the Bill as being " a weapon with a barrel not exceeding nine inches in length." In other words, we are endeavouring to cove•r by the definition weaporl/3 that might be concealed about the clothing of a person. The Bill will in no way interfere with the honest person possessing a firearm defined under the Bill, because it is provided that those who desire to carry a firearm may be licensed to do so, pro­vided the police in the particular district certify that they are eligible to be given a license.

Another main principle of the measure is that we intend to license the people who have a right to sell firearms of this descrip­twn; and we lay down as a main principle of the measure that those who are given a license must first acquaint themselves with the .character of the person to whom they are sellmg the weapon, and to see that that indi­vidual has in his possession e,·idence of tho fact that he i·s eligible to hold a license under this Bill.

Severe penalties are prescribed in the measure for any convicted criminal who has served a sentence if he is found in pessess­sion of a firearm without a license, A severer penalty is imposed if he is carrying that firearm between the hours of 7 o'clock in the evening and 7 o'clock in the mornino·. There is a prohibition also against the u~e of Maxim silencers or any device of a similar character unless a license be given for it. Provision is made in the Bill to regulate and co~trol all woapo;>s of this description. Power rs also taken, rf the necessitv arise, to recall all the weapons that are lic-ensed i~ the State. Under the provisions of the measure some che.ck will be placed, we hope, upon the commiss1on of offences by criminals.

. Mr .. MOORE (Aubi17ny): I agree with the mtentwns of the Brll, but whether it is capable of being curried out is quite another matte·r. I think it is going to be rather a difficult proposition if the individual who is. licensed to soli flre?"~ms has to satisfy hrmself as to the chgibrhty of every would­be purchaser to ha vo a firearm before he sells it.

The HOME SECRETARY: He must apply for a license.

Mr. MOORE: Of course I understand the necpssitv for the Bill, b~t there will be difficulties. 'As the hon. member well knows, in the West0rn country of Queensland where dingoes are ba.d very often a man who is out on the run will take with him a revolver or a firearm of that nature for the purpose of shooting dogs or foxes if he gets the OJ!portunity while ho. is out. I suppose there will be some provision that the license fee will not be unduly heavy in a caze like this where it is necessary for R. 1nan to cal~rv a firearm to assist him to carry on , his occupation.

The HOME SECRETARY : Men usually take rifles in such cases.

[Hon. J. Stopford.

Mr. MOORE : A rifle is not taken. The weapon taken usually is a Mauser with a 7~-inch barrel, the case of which become' the stock. It is a very effective weapon, and very useful for the class of work the man has to do.

Hon J. G. APPEL: What about pr:t rifles?

:Mr. MOORE : I suppose there is nothing in the Bill to penent pea rifles being sold ; and it does not refer to firearms except those with less than a 9-inch barrel. I think it is a wise provision that this· Bill should be br<:mght in, because, from experience we have had lately, it is <'sscntial that ~he Government should know in whose possessron these fireanns are, so that, if nece6::;ity arises,. it will be possible to trace and find out to whom they have been sold, .and have them brought in again. The liccnoc feec. should not be made too high.

Mr. KERR (Enoggera) : The present Act does not permit the e.ale of fire:1rms to those under fourteen years of age. I take It that the purpose of this Bill is to extend the age and to keep a record of every revolver sold of less than a cerbin length. I think, however, that the Government should not contemplate the imposition of any fee m rPg,Hd to the license to be tc..ken out, as to do so v, ould be ju ,,t one of those pinpricks which the Government adopt in the way of further taxation.

EYeryonc 'vill agree that certain circunl· stancc·s occurred in Queensland recently \Yhich have some buring on this matter. I refer particularlv to the regrettable inci­dent at South Johnsto,,e, which to my mind has not yet been definitely cleaned up as it should have been. A magisterial inquuy was held into the n1atter. Firearrns were handed out for use to a certain extent there; and that if3 an indication that vnu;thing cf the nature of this lc~islation is Tequired in Queensland. On the other ktnd, as pointed out b:.- the Leader of the Opposition, in the backblocks of Queensland a revolver is nearly alway·'' can·ied. The Minister should see his way clcn at a later stage to pro.-i<io fDl' a record beir:i[ kept of the pntchasers of r,evol· vers, buc nr •ler no cirC"u:mst':lnces should he place on any section of the c>ornmunity _an. additiora 1 foe for carrying a firearm whrch is ncc·pssary in the part of the State in which thoy live.

?.Ir. KELSO ( ,\'undah) : I gather from the j\Iinister that the onus of finding out the character o£ a n1c_ n "·ho is going to recei·\·e 11 revolver is thr·o,vn upon tho vendor.

The Ho;uE SECREHRY: Ko; the police give him a license first.

::\fr. KELSO: I understood tho hon. gentle­nlan to say that the onus was thrown on the yendor of finding out the ch&r"ctcr of the purchaser.

The HmviE SECRETARY : K ot unless he sells him a revolver without the man having first obtained a license.

Mr. KELSO: It would perhaps be better if the onus were put on the man who wished to get a license to consult the nearest clerk of pc•tty se ,sions.

The l-I01'J:E SECRETARY: He has to consult the nouest policeman in order to get a license to purchase a revolver.

Firea1·ms License Bill. [5 OCTOBER.] Firearms License Bill. 365

Mr. KELSO: Does it not seem that the <:>nus of guaranteeing the respectability of the man who applies for a license should be thrown on the police?

The HOME SECRETARY: So it is. I mean a <lealer \V ho sells to a man without a license.

r,Ir. KELSO : I presume .a man has no right to sell lirearmo to anyone who has not g0t a license.

The liO)lE SL~'RETARY : That is so.

:\L :·a~LSO : understood .Sc 1. rctal'~' to rmy that the onus ·lupkccpcr sdling the revolver .t[·c cha:·actcr of the purchaser.

the Home was on the to find out

The Ho;,IE ~Ei:RETARY: I:Ie is requir0d to h::: Ye a license to carry a fir, J..rn1.

l\Ir. KELSO : I understaLd that now, so Htat th•e onus will be on the police in the first p!acc. I hope that the question of the license f c·e is not going to be a bug bear to the people wl 0 find it necessary to apply for a license. \Ye ha,. a habit in all the Bills which come .:.de ,g of u·cating new respons-ibilities, ne\Y r1epartmcnts, and new pubiic serYants; and the··e lice11> e fee' will be spent in most cases in adrnini'<trativc CXIK<11SC ,. A merely nomin l foe of ls. ought to be sufiicicnt in a <·nse like this. It is neccs ·.uy that there ehould be a censorship kept of ell! those who loaye firearms in Quooncland, and that only those pec plo vdwm the police consider should cc1rry fircftnns should be licensed. J'.~o doubt ·we shall have more details when the second rcadinc· of the Bill is before us.

Mr. CORSER (llurnctt) : I take it that this Bill is an outcome of the recent strike. (Government laughter.) We know that the (~overnment did not realise the danger to c it.izens of this State in a time of industrial tllrmoil until recently. It w'"s pointed out Yei'Y clearl:c on this occasion that a union organiser could accumulate a number of rw.·o!vers and hand them out, and thgy could unt be L~crcd. :\o evidence was available as to •rcho was the holder of the revolvers. end ther2 was no data at the Home Office to slww to ·.c·hom they were issued.

;)lr. DASH: vVlnt about the shooting close ·lo the metropolis? Thert' is no necessity to t:o Hjl to South J ohnston·e.

Mr. CORSBR : The Government did not realise tL:e IJC{'cssitv for the Bill until the r"cent strike. The 'police magistrate had to inctitute loc d action of his own to call in rc .. :oh·crs ar:d guns in this recent turmoil. which was supposed to .involve no danger.

]\lr. B;;~;cE: The Home; Secretary did it.

f. fr .. CORS.ER: The police magistrate had to 1ns1st on Jt.

Thlr. BRLCE: The police magistrate was rot on s~rikc. He did a' he was told.

:'fr. CORSER: He was probabl:; the only o:w who wa' not on strike ; and the hon.

could not ask the workers to do as nYe told, because they will not do as arc told. During the turmoil it was

out that this Bill was necessary, cannot see that there is any dis­

Pcl:tnt·ge in it. I do not know how far the mcamre v.·ill go; but, while dealing with fir . m.:·, I think s-:Jmcthing might be done to t'ghtcn up th<' re;ulations under the Act wi'·h rcf: rcncn to the use of pea rifles. parti­~·ularly In the more cettled community. Ho~!OUI \BLI: :,IE}!BEHS : Hear, hear !

Mr. CORSER: The Home Secretary might give some consideration to the use of pea rifles and the introduction of a license for children who may carry them, in addition to the present limitation of their use to children over a certain age. The present limitations are not sufficient, and I think the dangers which exist are caused by the fact that we are a little too lax in allowing children the free use of pea rifles.

Mr. HARTLEY (Ji'itsoy): I presume one of the reason' for the introduction of the measure is the recent instances in which the police have come up against criminals carry­ing revolvers. I think a request was made for the is,ue of revolvers to the police force after an incident where a policeman was shot when attempting to arrest a criminal at the Coorparoo Railway Station during a robbery. It is quite true that, as far as pos­sible, undesirable persons holding revolvers :·l:ould be kept under close surveillance or prevented from having them at alL No doul;lt the use of firearms is essential in some portions of the State for the protection of the owner's family and property. In the widely scattered portions of the State a man often has to depend upon himself, and not on . the police force. I dare say that the rnam object of the measure is a Yery wprthy one, with which I entirely concur; but I do not think it will " fill the bill " altogether, because I think the most effective means of protecting the police is to put them on the oamc footing as the criminal who is likely to shoot at them. A man wiil hesitate to shoot at another person if he thinks he has got a gun, and I think the time has arrived wheu the Government should consider arming the police, at any rate, during certain hours of the night.

I take it that a good deal of discrimination will be used by the police in granting licenses. It Is going to be a pretty big thing for CYory man to have to apply to the nearest police constable for the right to carry a revolver or to have one in his possession. Thl' position of tb0 constable as an arbiter

the que,tion will need careful watching. I think the purpose of the Bill is

I'Ot to prevent peoplu who are legitimately cntrtled to own revolvers from having them. For iiLtance, the Leader of the Opposition pointed to the necessity of men engaged on runs extC'rmina ting pests such as marsupials or clingoe·, and who had necessarily to carry iil'earms. It is necessary for such men to

o-vn a revolver. It has been [11 a.m.] suggested that the provisions of

the Bill should be extended to include rifles and firearms with the object of pren~nting youngsters from carrying them. I£ It Is mtcndcd to stop the young Australian from using a pea rifle, action should be taken first to repeal the compulsory clauses of the Defence Act. and then start a kindergarten '··' hich would use onl} wooden popguns and corb. After th::t a system of international arbitration could be evolved to prevent international disputes. I would suggest to the hon. member for Burnett that he should have representations made to the Geneya Conven­tion for the purpose of haYing all arms made of wood with cork ammunition. Youngsters do not want to be discouraged from handling pea rifle~ because a few of them may have been gmlty of excesses. Xo man outside Queen street would think of doing such a thmg. The _men who are always yelling for the suppressiOn of the use of firearms and

Mr. Hartley.]

366 Firearms License Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Firearms License Bill.

preventing boys from using the pea rifle are the first people who, when they stnke any trouble, run " full lick" to a policeman for "ssistance. The scope of the Bill is sufficient for the present. V\' e do not want to come down to the level of oaying to the young ~\ustrali m that he must use only wooden popguns firing corks, or shanghais.

:Mr, TAYLOR (Windsor): The r•~marks of the Home Sc·cretarc· left a similar impres­,-ion •sith me as thev did with the hon. member for ~undah, viz., that the onus of laking adequate measures to ascertain who the individual purchasing !ireltrms is, is thro,vn upon the vendor of fi.reanns. VY c now have the assurance of the Home Secretary that such is not thn case. I a1.1 not quite mrc enn yet whether the Bill applies to eYeryo.no purchasing a revolver.

The HoME SECRETARY: Xo. There are certain exemptions permitting men to carry rc,·olvers in the ordinary course of their a \·oca tions.

Mr. TA YLOR: I do not think there should be any exemptions, but we do not know much about them. However, we can discuss that matter to better ad Yantage when we see the Bill. I consider that even after a license has been issued by the police to any indivi­dual the Bill should provide that firearms sold should be held b:.- that person only. The issuing of a license to the holder of a revolver might not necessarily mean that the revolver will be purchased by the individual secaring the license. The vendor should record the names and addresses of everv person to whom he sells a revolver. ·

The HOME SECRETARY: They will have to keep a book for that purpose.

l'l'lr. TA YLOR : The introduction of the Bill is certainly nece~sary at the present time in Queensland.

:Mr. EDW ARDS (Sanango): I thoroughly agree with the remarks made as to the neces­sity for the introduction of this measure. The hon. member for Fitzrov ridiculed a certain statement made by the" hon. member for Burnett in reference to the use of pea rifles by children. It is all very well for the hon. member to hold such a statement up to ridicule, but it was a few days ago only that we read in the press an account of how two young lads went for a day's shoot­ing, and they shot at all the stock they could see, buildings, and tanks, then hid their firearms in a deep waterhole and went home. The police had virtually to drag from them the spot where they had con­cealed their firearms. The Bill will require to be administered strictly. I believe that if the hon. member for Fitzroy had th~ experience of pea-rifle bullets flying about hm1, ho would alter his views. The restric­tions in the use of firearms should be extended to youngsters holding pea rifles. It is quite a. common thing to see pea rifles being used among timber on the outskirts of the town. It is a well-known fact that when a bullet strikes dry timber it glances off in any direction.

Cases have come under my notice of cattle and horses dying suddenly apparently from an unknown disease. An examination of the hide of the animal. however, has disclo"ed the presence of a bullet hole, thus accounting for the death of the beast. Another phase •>f th? question is that boys going out on a ohoobng excurswn often dare one another to

[2flr. Hartlcy.

do thing., whirh are a da.ngcr not only tl stock but to the public. The Homt' Secrdary v.'ould be well advised to effectively restrict the m<e of firearms by children. \Ve know, too, of the effects that picture shows have on 1 he 1ninds of young children in thi~ n:gard; the boy ~-.t.-, rting off v. ith ne a ·rit1e soon has the i(lea that he rnu~t D0ssess a revoh-or. \'\here th" children .arc f'ullv edu­cated to the dang,:r of fire a~ ms, L_te pOsition i:~ noc f:-.0 st:riou:::.; but I h:now (-,: ··.::Hne funli­lio-: in el< ·Jdv s~~tlcd dis~ricts ' here mucll (Ol1cern i~ c-~~;scd tluough the indiscri1ninat·e u:-.c of ilroan11s b2: young la·d::-. A·; tho father of a family of boys, I appr<lci,,to the orious­lleS~ of this position, and support tlr: remarks­of other hon. nlPinbrrs that aLYntion should be ch~Yotcd to n )tri{ ting the U'"' of ,~" rifle~.

Mr. ROBERTS CEast l'oo·v· ,, . ·ba): In Rupporting the rcn::.::-.rks of the hon. :n101nber for '\ anango, I deprecate the attitude of th<. hon. member for Fit··roy. 'Ihe qur-,tion of the restriction of }lC'a rifips ha3 exercised the mind; of the membe1s of the Tc·O\\ oomba branch of the Societv for the Prev0''tion of Cruelty to Animals,' and the prm-~·nt is an opportune tin1o for bringing tho rnatter for­ward. Whilst the Minister has stated that registration will be noce ,sary in t:1e case of firearms obtain·. d in future, no mention i& made of the registration of tho"~c persons \Vho are already in posso,,,sion of firearn1s; and, unle,s the provision is extended, the position will not be fullv met.

The HmiE SECRETARY: The Bill makes pro­VlSJOn in that respect.

Mr. PETERSON (Kormanby): I am sur­prised at the attitude of the hen. mrmber for Fitzroy in ridiculing the suggestion of hon. members on this side that restrictions should be 1nadc in the C:ise of pea riflt;;,. The hon. member takes the Yiew that it is all very well to deal with criminals by arming those whose business it is to counteract the evil ~ intcntiom of criminals; but he laughs at the thought of human life beir;; taken by the indiscrimina tc use of pea rifles, Surely the hon. member has noticed frequent references in the prc;s to accidents to children horn the u-e of pea rifles! That the hon. member should treat the matter so lightly passes my comprehension.

Mr. HARTLEY: I have heard of c:npentcr"' being kill· cl while driving a nail.

Mr. PETERSON: Very fo··- opportumtw are extended to hon. members to have amend­ments made in a necessary m.,.tter of this kind, because most o: tho . \cts ha vn been on the statute-book for many years. so that the present is an opportune time to deal with a question which is of so much importance to the community. ::\row we hav£ this oppor­tunity. why not embrace it . md bring in some claus·e 1n.aking it co1npulsory for every youthful owner of a pea rifle to be registered in some wa v? In the district where I live I have seen 'boy' A ring pea rifles on to their neighbour's verandas and smashing the win­dows. Boys go to the little o.'rubs round B·risbane \vith pea rifles and bhoot in any direction .and at anything they 'ee~dogs, cats, or any n1ortal thing-and they , ornr·­timcs shoot thcms< lvcs, yet the h'>n. mf'?llbnl' ~a}s this is an unin1portant. rnatLr. For the life of me I cannot understand ii. I ask the Home Secretary with all sincerity to insnt a clause ''hich \Yill rnako it 11:'_~'-~~d,- tor:. '..!pr·n.

Firearms License Bill. [5 OcTOBER.] Firearms License Bill. ::67

all vouthful O'>.nen of pea rifles to bo regis­tcrc:d. The hon. member for Fitzroy said you mi.rht as ''ell go back to the ':hanglki da~ "'J a~1{I that J ou mi!?'ht as 'vell abolish military tr tining. \Vc might just as well abolie;h rnjlit.-rry training accorf:int to tho hon. gentlc:rnan's contention; but there is a v~asl; difference b,_,t>Y.ecn tho two, because military rifles arc under control, but those in the pusse~slon of indiyjdual owners are not under central.

:\Ir. HARTLEY: They cannot carry a rifle in the city.

lVIr. PETERSOX: That is w. We pa;s law·-, but thev ar. more honoured in the breach than in the cb··crvance; but that should not deter u·; from making it an offence for any ycuth to o;, n a pea rifle or ::tny other fire,nr11 -~s·ithout being registered, nor should it det-er us from regulating the use of firearms. The Home S:·cretary has that oppor~unity now. It is not a vital matter, and it i not going to -h rock the Government. It is a matter that has been dec it with by the Societ.v for the Prev<mtion of Cruelty and others, and surely the hon. gentleman could insert an amendment in the Bill to that effect.

Mr. HANLOX (Ithaca): I do not think hon. n1en1bel'~ ne-ed be greatly concerned about tbc Bill not providing for the licens­ing of pea rjfh-s. The average ;,-ouno· fellow in Queensland who has a pea r;fle i~ pretty upable and prett.v well ab!{) to use it. I know that I did a good de~l oi shooting with a pea rifle before I was twclYc years of age~ .and I know quite a number of boys in the city of Brisbane \Yho aro just as capable of handling a pea rifle as l was then. One would naturally think, as our <:ity-bred boys are aLle to U'•e that firearm with cdety, that the countrv lads should be even less liable to accident' f-rom the use of pea rifles. There is one thing which speakers on the opposite

11 side of the Chamber have overlooked and that is that parents v·ho allow their b~vs to have pea rifles r-bonld have the res,Jonsibilih· cast upon thorn of teaching their. boys how to shoot, an·d what to shoot at. It wonld be just as foolish to suggest that boys be pre­vcnte~! from using knives because they might slit their mouths when catino- their food. (Opposition laughter.) If hon. ,;;_embers oppo­site who haYc a large family of boys have neglected ti1cir training in that direction, th•· respousibility is upon them and not upon the Government. I think every man who allows a boy of hi., to own a pea rifle should accept the responsibility which is his of training ihat bo:c how to shoot, and how to carry the rifle v;ith safety.

'The provision' of the Bill. as I understand it, are very welcome indeed to city people. One speak-er inferred that this Bill had onlv been thought of since the wgrcttable inciden't which occurred at South Johnstone; but 1 know a Bill of this kind has been talked of on many occasions, by metropolitan mem­bers particularly, who have advocated the licensing of firearms. It is well understoo-d that metropolitan members desire-d such a Bill to be introduced : but, in consideration of the big country population of Queensland to "·horn firearms are practically a necessity the Government hesitated to introduce th'i~ Bill before. If I understand the Minister aright. the provisions of the Bill will make it difficult for the criminal class to carry

firearms, and will in no way Interfere with the honest and law-abiding section of the community being armed. To me the most dnnmerous situ~\tion -..vhich c:oul·d anse In reg;l'J. to revol Yers is. tl1at the crirninal members of thu populatiOn should. be armed and honest eitizens dioar,wd; and I should 1egret any provision in the Bill which would prevent honc.~t citizens frorrl bmng arm-ed. I trust the provisions of this Bill will. as far as po.csible, prevent th': c·rimi1,al class horn carryinc;- arm~, and do aR little as pos:31ble to prcYcnt law-abidi11~· citizens fron1 owning lirca.r -~1s.

l\"r. I-Il:XES (Townsrille): I welcome th0 introtluction of this Bill, which I think is lon;; overdue. During the present year the .New South \Vales GovernmelJt had neces­sarily to introduce a similar measure in that State. In conversation \vith many of the police officials tlwy have informed me that the vra{'tice of carrying concealed fireanns. to-cln.y is far rnore general than it "\Yas a. few y(-.tr ago. It "\Yas then a most un'..-lsuaL thing to find c\-en the n1ost de:3pcrate triminals. such as burglars anc.l house­breakers:· carrying auton1atic reYolYers; but to-dav the reverse is the position. :Men rtrresff'd for Jcs;"er offences, even drunken­ness, are oft0n found to have concealed lq·eapons on their persons \Vhcn scarehed at the watchhouse. Again, some people adopt the practice of carrying revolvers in their· hip pockets; they rarely use them, but cm··ry them in a spirit of bravado-a Tom l\iltx spirit. TJ,ey go to the pictures and se<' ,the hero shootmg at all and sundry; and tney think that to be n1anlv it is nec~s3ary to catTv an autom,ltic at their hip. 'Tl12n we hav~ th0 spertLcle of some of these going off ac·ciclenhlly. I remember one night at t. ccrt:tin p}Rce of a1nusoment one n1an brushed against another, and a revolvPr "\Vent off and shot him in the foot. At Lntwyche a few 1\ eoks cu;ro a couple of youths "'.Yore

1'1azing rnvay at the- ·moon with revolvers. This thing- is bcrornin7 ~0rlous, and there i no doubt that irresponsibl~ persons curry­in~ C'onc~ahv1 fn0arn1s are a mena.c: to the safciy of the public. It has been suggested bv some hon. members that pea rifles should b;, included within the scope of the Bill. \Yh-- not extend that to other guns besides pea' ·rifles? The averag-e boy who uses a pea rifle is just as careful as the man who uses an ordinary gun or revolver. The rt ason of thP hen. member for Nor:n1.nhy for wanting the pea ,-ifle to be ~oYer,cl by the Bill was that he knew of some instance,.; wberC' small boys were breaking windows. There are far more windows brol:cn b1 small boys with shanghais than with pe8: rifles; so why not introduce an amendment to prohibit the use of shanghoi'? It is just as absurd to suggest that the pP' rifle should be brought under it as th1t th0 shanghai should he. I-Iowever, this m·-"'1Surc is long overduC', and it will make for the bdter conduct of the public generally.

Mr. H. :Yl. RC'BSF:LL (Toombu/): This measure will no doubt prevent the inclis­('Jrirninate use of firearms. The ave1·aze Australian is \'Cry prone to use firearms at a very ea.rl~,- age: and, in view of the grovv­ing lawlessness of r. 'E>rtain section of the communitv. it is -..\ iso that an inventory 'houlcl be kept of all fire«rm' issued 1~ future. and also those alrPa.dy in po•,;ession of their respective owners.

]fr. H. M. Rttssell.]

368 Firearms License Bill, [ASSEMBLY.] Firearms License Bill.

The Home Secretary stated that the main object of the Bill was to prevent the issu­ing of firearms to people who prey on society, and I can conceive no more dastardly thillp: tha.n for a housebreaker to break into a hou,'·?, armed with an automatic or some other firearm. No doubt such a man will not hesitate to use it, if tackled by the householder. The penalty for breakinr into a place when in possession of firearms should be very heavy. Moreover, there should be a Yt ry heavy punishment for having firc­arnls in one's possession. It is quite likely that und0r this Bill greater supen-i,ion will be exercised in the sale of fireanus. par­ticularh· to a criminal. There i~ no rC,\"·On why ce>. many of our citizens should ~;o about ;,vith ftrearms in their possession. Thc'~7 are not necessary. I think th" aYf~'ragc ..:c\us­tralian citizen is fairly law-abiding. We do not wish to emulate the characters por­trayed in American picture films, of which so many are exhibited to the public, and in 1.vhich characters are depicted using firearrns. It muet have a verv bad effect on the grov.-ing youth of thO com1nunit~T· .S~n?-C'­thinv might be done to prevent the cxlubihon of those !llms, which cedainly encourage the growing youth of the community to utilise firrarn:s more than they \Youltl rlo under orclinaTv circurn ~ tanccf;.

)Jr. Fv::miCKS: It is purely a Federal nnt1":-r.

:'lr. H. M. RUSSELL: It may be beyond the jurisdiction of the Queens)and Govern­ment, but I am sure that It 1s responsible to some extent for the use of firearms by th<• young men of the community.

~\Ye bave heard a great deal about pea rifk .. , }1ost of the bo)'s ,,-ith whom I come into contact arc vcrv anxious to have pea rifles, a.nd there is no doubt that they are co:~1ing into general use in the con1munity. I th;nk that the use of pea rifles should be prohihtcd, because, apart from the fact that t~ll"> g-ive some pkasure to the users, they r:n::~ ;-:_.._ ::o·.trce of grave annoyance to the

·c. ful householder, and many accidents i:apncncd from their indiscriminate use.

;,.omc • are in the habit of shooting at , n·r that comes along, no doubt cmu-Jati,;;r C<'rtain characters which are portrayed in the iilms. I hope the Government will raak·:: so1nc prOvision to regulate the issue of rifles, in spite of what the hon. Jnc. r for Fitzroy has said. Of course, ]y. i ,o member of a party which does not beli.C'YC in military training or C'Oinpulsory military service.

:Ir. E.<.RTLEY: I do. I always ha Ye,

11-c·. H. ?L RUSSF.LL: 'Iho hen. member h:s. & t any rat0, been a protagonist in this Hom fur 'the ,Communist Parh, who do not boli '"" in military discipline, rmd to-day he i,;; ar1Yf ·et-i:1g the indi.scrirninatc u~c of pea rifk" b~- boys. I cannot understand his posi­tion <;_t all: ·nd. in Hpite of hi" yiew that pea rif!0s should not be exclud0d, I hope that the Hon1c Sec1·ctary \vill see his way to intra­due.' , C•lDC claus~n whereby their indiscrinrinate use 1:>:: boys will be prevented in the future. Tl:crc ;s 1 o doubt th:tt the increasing: inclina­tion of ('itizcns to carr~v fi12arm" arises from the p::.·ovYiug spirit in the con.rnunitT of dis­·Jbecliclcc to law, which is fostered b:~, cer­tain l:1d-iYidua1s in our 1nidst; ,}nd. in Yiew of that spi1·it, the Government are wi-e to pre­vent the issue of firearms to indiyiduah unlc··g the;· urc re·· lly needed.

[Jh. H. M. R1tsseU.

It has been stated that firearms are neces­sary for the man in the West. But what doe·, he want them for even there? I have not heard that he needs them for the protection of hi, life. There are no wild animals in the West,

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC WORKS: There might be a bunyip out there that he wanted to shoot.

~1r. H. M. RUSSELL: As a matter of fact, I think the city dweller is more entitled to uoe limarms than his brother in the West, bcc:111s• · we know that in the centres of population burglaries arc becoming more prevalent day by day, and this State is being inundated bv a lot of criminals from the South-dc.,perr.te men, who are generally arrHcrl, and arc likely to cause injury to the commurritv, I commend the Government for the introduction of the Dill, and I hope they will broaden its provisio_ns so as to include ever;; class of firearms m order that the Go,·crnment may have at hand for use •t a r~comcnt's notice an inventory of all the nr2arms in the State.

1.ir. DASH ('Iundingburra): I also wel­come the introduction of this BilL I think it is long OYerdue, and should have been introduced when we abolished capital punishme11t. The hon. m''mber for Burnott suggests that it is being introduced because of what took place at South Johnstono. The ~Cewspapers and the sellers of firearms at South J ohnstone incited the people to violence. The sellers of firearms displayed large numbers of firearms in their windows, and the ncwspaj1Ns were stating that fire­arms wCl'C in demand, and that a large :mmber had bec·n sold. It also came out in e,-idencc that the mill management supplied firearms to the " scabs " at South J ohnstone; and, unfortunately, one picket was shot by ~~omcone in the South Johnstone area, and, if for no other reuson, it is right that this Bill should be introduced at this time in t Yicw of that cYidence, It is a well-known

fact that the criminal element [11.30 a.m.] is armed and doe"• a great deal

of damage, The police, in the c·xccution o[ their duty, ha\'o to be very careful i:1 rnn~uing ctinrinals because of the risk o[ bcirw fired upon and shot. It is not u!lcornmon to read of a criminal being pursued and fh~ing on his pursuer. A great nc~e~Jit,v exists for the strict supervision of the is"w of liccnsco for firearms to any of th-: <'rin1inal clen1cnt, or. in fact, to any 110rson cksirmH of purchasing a "shooting sfc!:c" ;:,trict ~un _rvision should be exercised U"'Cr vendors of ~firearms in order that they rnay not sell firt-arrns to any ineligible p;'r~on. rrhe penalty in such cases should he substantiaL

KELSO : A person purchasing firearms n_lF,t haYe a llcense.

?;Ir, DASH: It is a woll-kno·vn fact that. il,-h0n industrial trou'b1e i:- on, newspapers i'lcitc' tl10 people to do things which they Yco dd not do in their c .. llmor moments. I hopo that the restrictions impo ,,d in this 1<;!l will be l-'noficial in t;mos of industrial disputes.

:'vir. l\IAXvYELL (Toou.·ong): I a~ glad !.hat the Go;-ernment have brought down this BilL The argumenb used by the hon. l:lf'mbers for Fitzroy and Townsville prove err clusiY01_<- that: the necessity exists to r -,tricl the use of pea rifles unless the u'ers

Firearms License Bill. [5 OCTOBER.] Firearms License Bill. 369

arc competent persons. If any hon. member were to say that a boy of twelve years of age should be allowed to uce a pea rifle unless under supervision or direction, then the etatement would be a very dangerous one.

Mr. HARTLEY: 2'\obody made that state­ment.

Mr. FERRICKS: The law now prohibits children of tender age from using firearms.

:Mr. :\1AXWELL: The hon. member for Muncliuglmrra stated that it was absoll.ltely necessary for a measure such as this to be introduced bccaus,J a number of criminals 1vore using firearms. I learned to-day that there are a number of individuals-not criminals-who arc acquiring firearms. and who may be criminals to-morrow. Unless wrno supervision is made of the firearms already held by the people, or a census taken of what are held, then this Bill will be useless. I have heard it said bv individuals that th<)y always carry a revolver. That is a fearful statement to make in a British community.

:IIr. RumER: \Yhy? 1\>lr. }fAXWELL: We all know that a

Britisher HCn'r uses a knife or a gun. He has always been taught to use his fists.

ii;Ir. CARTER: A policeman was shot in England the other clay.

Mr. J\IAXWELL: We do not want a repetition of that here. I am glad this Bill has been introduced, even if its introduction was brought about as one hon. member sug­gested by the unfortunate shooting episode, which we all regret, that took place at· South Johnstone. We had an example in Brisbane the other day when a man in ono of our principal streets shot a woman, and it is a marvel that he did not shoot someone else. I hope that under this Bill the Government will not only be able to control the sale of firearms but will also make some arrange­ment regarding the misuse of the pea rifle.

Mr. KING (Logan): I recognise that the indiscriminate use of firearms should be regulated and controlled. Human nature is such that, if a person who is armed gets· into a row, the temptation is to use the fire­arm he is carrying. That temptation should be removed. There are not mam' measures on the statute-book dealing with firearms. We have the Firearms Act of 1905 which it is now intended to amend. That' Act only deals with children up to fourteen years of age. Then we have the Sunday Observance Act, which prohibits tho carrying of firearms on Sunday.

Hon. J. G. APPEL: It is more honoured in the breach than the observance.

Mr. KING: That is very much so. The intended r·estrictions are very wise. A dealer selling firearms .is to be licensed, and a person who carrws .a revolver has to be licensed also. I understand from the Home Secretary that provision will be made that a person to whom a dealer sells a revolver or other firearm will require to be of decnnt character. It is necessary to make that provision in order that the dealer and the person issuing the license may be satisfied as to the eligibility of the applicant. With these safeguards, the Bill will be a good one.

Much discussion has centred round the question of pea rifles; and, whilst it is a good thing that Otll' boys should be encour-

1927-2 A

aged in sporting activities, there is no doubt that there has been a tremendous loss of life due to the indiscriminate use of pea rifles; and it would appear that there is more loss of life through pea rifles than through th" use in the ordinary way of any other class of firearm. The daily press constantly exhibits headlines referring to unfortunate pea riHe shootings; .and it is a pity that the Bill is not sufi-icicntly 'vidL in its scope to regulate the indiscriminate use of P(''-1 rifle>~. Thc> main points of the Bill, as· ou'Jined by th•~ :\Iinister, will meet with gen' raJ approval.

Mr. RIORDAJ\1 (Barke): It is necessary th::tt provision should be made that the authoritie · charged with the issuing of the license for the u · c of a firearm shall find out lho qse to w hi eh the firearm will be put. It is known that the police hrwc b· .•11 power­less to confiscate revolvers found in the pos­::':ssion of dangerous nlon1bcrs of the crirni­nal class--criminals who would have no hesitation in shooting in order to gain their liberty; and the Bill now before the House will overcome that difficulty.

It has been suggested that the people in the West should be exempt from thos·e pro­visions; but the people in the \Vest want no consideration in this regard, betuuse they arc a law-abiding class of citizen:'. The registration of iir·cmrms is a n1atter that has beeu calling for attention for a long time.

Dealing with the question of pea rifles, in my opinion a duty devolve-; upon the police throughout the State to prevent cluldrcn carrying fireatms of any description; in facL, firearm, should not be carried by any person under the age of sixteen or eighteen yoars. If parents desire their children to become skilled in marksmanship, there are facilities provided by rifle dubs for that purpose, and children may be taught to shoot without danger to themselves or to the rest of the community. As I say, the police shoul·d be g_iven power to prevent children using pea. nfles or any other kind of firearm.

I do not think the Bill will have the result of stopping any trouble such as that which took place at South J ohnstone recpntly, because it has been recognised that here in Queensland as well as all over ~\ustralia recently it is becoming the habit of most people to arm themselves. I suppose you would find very few people who knock about 9ueensland to-day who do not carry a gun m the hip pocket. Personally I am afraid that it may go off and hurt me, so I do not carry a gun. (Laughter.) Never­theless, precautions are nece::sary when you find such a big influx of the foreign element, who are allowed to drink in hotel bars, and who may become excited as a result of drink­ing, in which case they are not responsible for their .actions. This not only applies to the foreign element of this State, but also to youths, who may, as a result of a drink­ing bout, get into a brawl or a " push" row. In such cases when they have a gun. they have a shot, perhaps at some individual -perhaps just to keep the mob off-but there is always the chance of hitting somebody, and perhaps somebody a good way off who is not implicated in the brawl at all. There is no occasion to go to South J ohnstone, and there is no occasion to travel round Western Queensland to find incidents such as this. Practically in every paper you pick up you find reports of householders in the suburbs obtaining revolvers for their own

Mr. Riordan.]

370 PUblic Service Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] Act Am~ndment Bill.

protection; but how many hou,o,eholtlcrs have used a revolver on people foLmd on their prerniscs? If their houses al'·" broken into, they do not think of the revolver, and by the time tbev have switched on the light and looked for the r~volvcr the thief has gone. This Bill will give some protection against those -,vho carelessly use firearru ; but the criminal is not going to rush in and take out a license because tho BiB is in operatjon. He will give himself a chalice until he is eaught. Then the police will lu1YC' the power to take the re\'olvcr from him. :'\o doubt the Bill wiil ao·,ist the police in that regard, and I think it will be a good thin;; for Queensland when firearms arc taken from a certain das.s of people \;vho have been arriving here, and also frorn n, good n1any of the irresponsible people ,,, ho no\v can \va]k in, 1vill:v nilly, purcha~e iirearrns, and use tlwrn to the danger of d(~c_nt eit·izcns in this State. I ha vc no dou 1Jt t' rli the Bill is the result of an agitation by the police. It does not matter whether a eihz•1n oi this Sta to is ,~ criminal or not; if h~ finds himself up against it, the Hrst pcrso:1 he runs to is the poiicPman, and, if \VC arc going to allow the indiscriminate cale of firearms without kno\ving who ,'2 hands they get into, t 11en we shall be puttin;:- the polic o of this State, as well as the citiz2n". in a da.ngcrous position.

vVe read a report the other cloy of the finding of a lot of stolen goods that could not be identified. If people are found in the possession of goods suspected of ha Ying been stolen, the onus should be on them to prove where they got them, and not on the police. because, if the_,, cannot be identified. the goods go back to the person in whose pos,;cs­sion thn' \verc found. This condition of affairs ,~-ants rectifying. and 1 hope the police will enforce the law with rcg ·re! to the carrying of firearms. rrhc ]a\V should prohibit the carrying of firearms by children. because such a practice is a danger to thPm­selves and to citizens: and I think 'uch a law ought to be enforced strict!~, in the future. I commend the Homo ScrrctarY for the introduction of the Bill. ,

Question put and passed. The House resumed, 'l'he Chairman reported that the Com­

mittee had come i'o a. resolution. Resolution agreed to.

FIRST READl);G.

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon .• T. Stop­ford, Mount Jforgan) [)'resented the Bill. and mOYPd-

" That the Bill be now 'read a first tin1c."

Question put :. nd passed. Second reading· of the Bill 1nadc an Order

of the Day for to-morrow.

PUBLIC SERVICE SUPEHA~Kl.~ATIO:\ ACT AMENDME::\T BILL.

InTIALO';' rx Co:u:mTTEE.

(Jfr. ,pozz,jck, Grcr1ory, in the chair.)

The ATTORNEY-GENERAI, (Hon. J. J\1ullan, Flindu·s): I beg to move-

" That it is desirable that " Bill be introcluced to amend the Vublic Service Superannuation Act of 1912 in certain pa,rticulars.''

[Mr. Riordan.

The principal features of this Bill arc that the interest on the fund is to be increased from 4~ per cent. to 5 per cent. for ten years from 1st July, 1927. Of couroe, as hon. mem­bers arc a"\vare, "\VC have been paying 5 per cenL from 1st January, 1925; and it is now being made statutory for ten yea'!·s.

The Bill does not increa.se the number of units for assurance, annuity, and incapacity to which an officer must compulsorily contri­bute; but it lJCrmits officers to take out additional Yoluntary units as follows :-Units of assumnco mey bo increased from £300 to £1,600 ; units of annuity rnay be incr~asecl from £200 to £400 per annum; and umts of incapacity rnay be increased fl·orn £100 to £150. The annuity may be increased from £200 to £lOO per annum, and the incapacity from £100 to £150 in the case of males only, for reasons which I will explain on the second reading oi the Bill. Oft'icers who were thirty years of ago when the Public Service Superannuation Act of 1912 was passed and did not contribute to thn fund within the prescribed period of two _years from that date, may now take up umts of as:'inrancc, annuity, or incapacity under th1s Bill. Officers who contributed as at age s0vonl.y and who are not now entitled to take u"l; further units under t,be present Bill on the 70·year basis, may ,coutributo or take up addition:tl units on the basis of rctlnng at the age of 65 years. Officers contributing for retirement at the age of se-ven(\ years will, if retired before the. age of seventy yea'l·s be entitled to recen-'" an anmuto', instead of, as at present, an mcapac1t; allowance.

A scheme of endowment assurance is pro­vided in the measure, payable at sixty-five years of age or at death before reachmg that age. Officers who ha.-e become con­tributors to the fund since 1st January, 1927 m a v either take out units of assurance on the 65-year endowment basis. or payable d death. It will be retrospcctJvo to that Pxknt. Oft'icers who were contributors for assurance before 1st J an]Jary, 1927, and whose policies are in existence may . nnvcrt. ~hem into endowment policies by paymg ad~;twnal contributions according to scale, w1th, of com·sc, the usual interest added.

Under the Bill officers may draw the annuitv to which thcv are entitle'd at a pre­scribed age eyen if they arc required to remain in the service beyond that ago.

::Vfr. MooRE: •rhey may draw the annuity and their sa.laries ,as well?

The ~\TTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes. At present o.n officer contributes for an annuity maturing at a certain ago. At preo,ent he caunot obtain such an annuity until he lca_Vt'3 the service· but. he has paid for that annmty, '-,nd thcro 'is no rea~on why he should not draw it from the fund just as he would draw it fl'om a privata company '\vhen .he ~as reached the presoribcd age. If the CXJtiencJ:s of the service require that he should rem':m six tnonths or a year nr longer in the s~rvlCC in the inten'sts of the State. there 1s no reason why he should not draw hi, annuib· as well as his salary.

1.)ndcr the present Act sunorannuation benefits of a co:_tributor are pa'yablc t" the "-idow or children of contributor. If there is no ,,-idmv or children, they arc paid to the legal rcprescnt.ativcs of the contribu­tor. Under this Bill a contributor will have

Public Service Superannuation [5 OcTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 371

the right to increase his superannuation bene­fits, and there is a proviso that under certain circumstances, in the interests of the widow or chil·dren, an annuity may be granted by the board, or lump-sum payments may be made, partly or wholly to the extent of the contributor's benefits, whichever the board considers the more advantageous to the widow and children,

The Bill will also provide additional bene­fits to the relatives of a contributor for an annuity. If an annuitant. dies soon after he b~com~s entitled to the annuity, the annuity dJCs with !mu; but under this Bill if he ·dies when in receipt of his annuitv.' then his widow. children, or legal represer;tative will be entitled to receive the whole of his con­tributi:ms towards the annuity, plus 3 per cent. 1ntcrcst, h~s;::~ the amount which ha-:, already b;:;en paid in annuity, which, in my op1n1on, IS a mo~-t equitable arrangement.

.Mr. ELPHIKSTO;<.;E: Is that ,ound actuari­ally 'I

The ATTOR?\EY-GENER.\L: Mr. Br<>mner, the actuary to the fund-a most competent actuary--gave an assurance before the Bill was submitted to the Government that al~ the proposals were actuarially sound, othennse we woul-d not have gone on with th~m. _ They seem to be th<Jroughly reason­able,_ boc.tus",- . dealing with this point in particular, wnilst everv man "cts back all his contributions-and 'some po~plo certainly get back a groat deal more than they con­tnbute-novertheless the wav in which that addit_ional amount can be pa'id-and the only way m which It can be made up-is from the di~orenco between the 3 per cent. inter~st wluch "-o Will allow t<J the contributors and the earning value of the monev at 5 per cent. compound interest. The actua1·y sc;y,­and he m1ght to know-that the funds will permit that to be done. I admit that ut first glance it does s·ecm extraordinarily generous.

[12 noon.]

The surrender value of annuities "~iJl also be enhanced. In the futuro, if a person surrenders, he will be entitled to receive not only what he has contributed to the ~und as heretofore, but 3 per c,mt. simple mtercst added. . Another pmvis~on makes possible the •;nnt­mg of proportiOnate gratuities to those offic9rs who had not less than one year's scrv19e on 1st July, . 1913. It was formet!y provided that a public servant who had less thar: fifteen ye crs' service on th<et d-tto wouid recerve no gratuity. Under this Bill how­ever, it is proposed that those office;s who were in the public servicG on 30th June 1913 will be_ entitled to a proportionate g'l:atuity on ret1roment, m addition to their super­annuation benefits.

The Bill also ~ontains a pr01·ision enabling the Governor m Comh.il to include the officers and servants of the Univerc,jt,y "-ithin the scope of the Bill. It also wiclons the definition of an "officer," by including a!Yc

person who may be a permanent officer o'f the public service. \Vhen the 1912 Act was pa"c.cJ, we had no Main Roads Commission, Irrigation Commission, or Prickly-pear Land Con1miS:Jlon, or several other such bodies.

).fr. J\IooRE: Those officers are outside the Public Service Act.

The ATTORNEY-<;1-ENERAL: But thcv arc officers holding permanent positions in

the public service, and they may later elect to be included within the provisions of the Act.

These arc the principal provisiOns of the BilL Of course, there arc a great many machinery clauses, which will be explained at a later stage.

2\'lr. MOORE (clt,bigny): The Bill certainly sounds very beneficial from a public service point of view. lt strikes one whether the propo::Hl.is are practicable, and I. an1 pleased to hear that they actuarially possible. From what the Attoruey-General has t,:,icl us, it -,oundcd as if their practicabilit-· was extremely doubtful or else that there must be a gre11t accumulation of funds.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The accumulated funds to date total £660,000.

Mr. MOORE : There must be accumulated funds to enable the benefits provided for to be given in addition to those already receiv­able. It seems rather extra•Jrd:na "v that there should be sufficient t unc!s to c'oncede all these benefits. I did not hear the Minister say anything with •rega re! to those public servants who had contributed to the fund on the basis of their retiring at suycnty years of age, whereas they were retired at sixty-five years. Some years ago i1H~ q·J(~~t~un of officers being retired on attaining sixty­five years of age and still being required to contribute to the fund until they reached seventy years without th"ir having adequate rneans of doing so \Vas 1ncntioned in this House on three or four occasions. The Government of the day said thl'y would go into the quc3tion, and, if their inquiries disclosed an\' unfairness to those officers. they would ;ee if it could not be mitigated in some v. ay. I was not able to gather from the 11inister's statement whether thoce public servants who suffered a cliHbility on vacating positions in the public oer"ice through no fault of their own will be com­pensated unde·r this BilL These persons had contributed to a superannuation scheme on a definite ba.sis. v:hich \Yas departed from under the Act of Parliament which provided for their retirement at sixty-fiye years of ago.

The ATTORKEY-GE:<rERAL: The original Act under y·hich they \Yere employed contained a. proviso that their ·servicm might be retained in ce·rtain cases.

Mr. ?v100RE : In some cases their services were not retained ; and these persons were placed in the position of having to contri­bute to a fund, although the_,. had not a sufficient incmne from which to contribute their quotrr. I do not know whether the mcasLue will deal generously with these t,eople.

Tlw ATTORKEY-GENERAL: The "seYcnty­scl,lc" man is getting an advan{'c under this Bill, inasmuch as if he is retired before reach­ing the age of scYent,- years, he will b~ given the annuity allo'.vance inste:,d of the incapa­city allowance.

Mr. MOORE: That is from now on?

Tbe AT•ronNEY-GENERAL: Ye:;.

:Yir. JITOORE : Those who arc coming unci< the scheme for the first tinw know f'x,~ctl:· what their position is; but I am 1'01crrrng to those ,vho were retired a ftvr ~'e~rs. ago . after ~aving contributed on a de.<mte ~~SF established before th0 sixiv-five­year ret1nng age became law, and 1vho~ \Vcre

Mr. J11oore.]

372 Public Sen>ice Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

real!·: in the position of having the ag-ree­ment that they had made with the Govern­ment repudiated.

The ATTOR~'EY-GENERAL: Not repudiated.

:;).1r. :MOORE: There is no question about the a grooment, and the Minister at that particular period said he was going into the question to seo whether it was possible to make a fair adjustment.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The adjustment was made for those men at that time.

.:\Ir. l\IOORE : I am glad to hear tluct, bocrcuso at the time it appeared to be an unju· t provision; and, with the introduction of the present Bill, it seems on!:· reason­able that the e-ame privileges as are being extended to those entering upon the scheme should be extended to the persons to whom l have referred. I have not considered the Bill to any extent; but it would appear to be a most generous prm·ision for the public servants, who are going to get everything out of it that it is possible to got.

One point upon which I should like infor­matio·1 is the provision that the aesured may leave his annuity or superannuation allow­ance to his legal representative. I am wondering wheth0r under those conditions a public servant could will his superannuation benefits away from his widow or famih altogether, the board then having to provide for the widow or family.

The ATTORNEY-GE:<rERAL: The assured has power to leave his superannuation benefits to his legal representative; but if the board considers it necessary, it may, 'notwithstand­mg that fact, alter the intentions of the assured, and provide for an annuity, a lump sum, or both, being paid to the widow and children, whose interest•, are considered para­mount.

Mr. J\!IOORE: That is a point upon which I was not qmte clear, but, after hearing the Minister's st~tement and considering the Bdl, the positron appears to be satisfactory.

. :Mr. G. P. BAR::'-JES (Warwick): General mterost will be taken in the introduction of this measure. l'.iany public servants-parti­cularly those in the vicinity of sixty-five years of age-are a good deal concerned as to the~r actual position under the super· annua.twn scheme. The JYlinistor is to be complimen.ted £01· the full text of the pro­posals whiCh he has presented, and many will be surprised at the full dc"•-ree of liberality which is being granted tJ; public servants under the Bill.

The Leader of the Opposition has drawn a~tention t? the f>:ct that some of the pro­VISIOns whwh applwd to the public servants of other days were not carried out and I am not satisfied-although the Minist~r gave an assurance JUSt now-that matters have been righted. In 1924, when the Act was being amended, certain incidents came under mv notice which seemed to indicate that certain public servants had not been treated quite fairly. When the amending Bill was before the House, as reported on page 1785 of " Hansard " for 1924, I said-

" I would like the the Minister to give us more information as to why the words 'any annuity payable under section 21 of that Act ' are repealed. The depart­ment is under certain obligations to tlie public servants. This matter was referred.

[Mr. M oore.

to m this Chamber a few weeks ago. Many public servants continue to pay their instalments to the Public Service Superannuation Fund, but they are not advised as to what their true position is in connection with that fund, Does the repealing of these words mean that thL' old-time notification to public servants is restored'? "

The Socr('tary for Agriculture replied-" The amendment permits an officer

who has contributed to the Public Ser­,·ice Superannuation Fund under the '70-vear cla,use' to draw from the fund the ~nnuity to which he is entitled when he retires, while he is carrying out tem­porary employment for the State. That is to say that, if a police magistrate retires at the age of seyenty years, and is from time to time doinc: temporary work at a reduced salary, he \\ill be entitled to his annuity notwithstanding that he is doing temporary work.

"J1Ir. G. P. Barnes: That is really r·ecognising the old agreement.

· · The SEcRETARY FOR .\GRICcLTURE: Yes."

The point I wish to make is that I do not think the oid agreement has been or is being recog-nised. It \vas repudiated, and, in the light of the evidence submitted by the Attorney-General to the effect that the enor­mous sum of something like £660,000 IS standing to the credit of the fund-an amount contributed largely by the public servants of other day.,-is it not a fair thing that some consideration should be given to those old-time servants, if they arc alive to-day~ I have a case in my rnind now \vhere a mau has just beou retired, and .I think, in con­sideration of his having contributed to this fund for nw.,ny years, he receives-speaking fronr memory-the sum of £84. The thiug is manifestly unfair; and there should be sor:ne consideration gi vcn to public servants ju>t retired who have been largely respon­sible for the .amount standing to the credit of the fund. Actuarially the ;,Iin[,ter says he is on sound lines; but there may be a possibility und{)r the Bill of doing something for these people and I make that appeal. All are delighted to know there is a possi­bility of the annuity being increased two-fold and the incapacity allowance by 50 per cent. This is an indication of the liberality that is to be giYen under this measure to public servants in the futuro. While that liberality is to be shown to the men of to-day, in all fairness something should bo done for the men who arc still in the land oi the living, and who haYc not been allowed to enjoy the frLJits of their own savings. Altogether, the Government arc to be congratulated on the introdc1ction of the measure; but, if we can make it more liberal in its application to school teachers and public savant> of the past, by all moans let us do so. If it means that the Bill may be delayed for a week or two in order to make it wider and more bencf10ial in its application, by all means let us delay it for that space of time, so that we may widen its prO\·isions in the direction I have indicated.

Mr. KERR (Enoggera) : The Attorney­General was good enough to inform the Com­mittee that there is an amount standing to the credit of the Public Service Superannua­tioh Fund of about £600,000. My own

Public Service Superannuation [5 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 371!

personal opinion in this matter may differ from that of many other hon. members; but I take tho view that it would be wise to reduce the payments by public servants rather than increase the units of assurance. I would far rather see the contributions of public servants made less rather than increase the amount of superannuation.

The ArTOilNEY'GENERAL: The public servant does not think that.

:Mr. KERR: I do not know that he does. We must remember that the cost of living has g·one up considerably from what it was when the Act was passed.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: They want a bigger annuity because the purchasing power of money has been reduced.

::\Ir. KERR: It would be interesting to have a ballot taken of the public servants to find •rhich they would prefer. A man may not be in a position to llke up a larger annuity.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Is not the man himself the best judge?

Mr. KERR: Of course. he is the host judge.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He need not increase the number of units. The hon. member seems to misunderstand the fact that the additional units will be voluntary; a man need not take them unlc,s he wishes to do so.

Mr. KERR: I quite realise th<tt; but I would rather sec the paymN\t for the annuity a man is going to receive made less than what it is now. I noticed that at the end of the last financial year thn fund was in credit to the extent of £592,000 in round figures. Unfortunately, the Government have traded on this large amount, and they have been payiug only 4~ per cent. interest.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: You arc wrong; we have been paying 5 per cent. since 1'925.

Mr. KERR: Tho Act of 1912 provides that the interest shall be 4~ per cent. I under­stood from the Attorney-General to-day that he is increasing that interest to 5 per cent.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I stated that we have boon paying 5 per cent. from 1st January, 1925, and we a·ru now making that rate statutory.

Mr. KERR : The Government have had the use of over half a million at 4~ per cont. interest for a number of years; and, when we analyse the Trust Accounts into which this money is paid, we find those Trust Accounts arc £1,750,000 short. It 1s a. deplorable things that superannuation money has been taken by the GO\·ornmcnt nnder their lcgisla tion.

Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is a loan.

M·r. KERR: It is a loan to the Govern­ment, and it has been absolutolv wasted in State enterprises and other vN1turcs. The Trust A rcounts are short to the extent of £1,750,000.

The CHAIRMA)l" : Ord<'r !

M1·. KERR: I am mentionim; that just in passing. The taxpayer has to foot that bill.

The CHAIRMAN: Order~ The hon. mem­ber must confine himself to the principles of the Bill.

:Ylr. KERR: It is regrettable that such an amount of money has been entirely lost, and it has to be replaced by the taxpaye·rs of the State.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Ilow IS it being lost to the taxpayers?

:\1r. KERR: I say it has to be replaced by the taxpayers of the State.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. member does not deal with the Bill, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. KERR: I am replying to intcrjec· tions in this regard. The Bill, in my opinion, does not go far enough, and should provide for the control of the Public Senice Super­annuation Fund on a better basis than it is on to-duv. Mv own personal opinion is that these f,;nds ;hould not be used for the purpose for which they a re being used. If they were to lend the money, for instance, for wor kcrs' d wcllings and to local authorities-a right avenue through which to lend-and kept the account separate, there would be a much better financial gain.

It has always been difficult for . m" to understand why officers who were pa1d f.rom t.hc Special, Trust. or Loan Funds could not con1o under the public service supcrannuatio_n scheme, as they arc part of t,h" . publrc service of the State. The defimhon of " officer" is more or less vvhat is kno\vn as a permanent official of the public sen·ice, ar:d I am o-lad indeed to know that the Bill w1ll inelud~ such officers as thosE' in the Forestry Department, the Irrigation Department, and several others.

Mr. FARRELL: The "Golden Casket"?

Mr. KEHR: Ko; but I consider the officials of the State Insurance Department should come under it.

The AT'fORXEY·GEXERAL: They are in now.

Mr. KERR: I am glad to k~ow. tJ:!at. It is difficult to understand why discrmuna­tion should be made between pubhc servants. \Ve know that such officers do not come under the Public Service Acts, but for the purpose of superannuation the officers of the R.ailwav Department could very well be included. Perhaps it will be necessary to paes a special Act for railway employees; but it is difficult to undersLnd. wh:r men with thirtv or forty years' serVJce_ ~n ~he railwavs do not have the same piOccchon a.J officers in other departments. Surely thoro is no re~son for discrimination between an officer of the Railway Department and an ofF.eer of the Irrigation Department? They a re both officers of the State. Why should r.ot the benefits of superannuation appl:> to both? Tho question has boon debated as long as I ean remember-at any ratP. for the last fifteen or twenty years-and schemes. have been put forward; and, if the result m the public service is good-and the actun.ry :says that th'' lJGnefits can be mcreased-what IS to preYcnt. the Go:·ernrncnt fr~nn bringing in a. schcn1o e1nbraclng the rarlway ernp1oyees? It ~PL'ms to rne, however. that the very best nso of the fnncls should be made for the benefit of thoso persons who contribute to them and I am g-lad to know that at long last ~omo action in that direction is going to be taken.

There is a ;-cry important. matter which I wish to touch upon. The Government should realise that their honour is at stake,

Mr. Kerr.]

374 Public Service Superannuation [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

and that thev have been breaking an under­taking given "in writing to a number of public servants. Mr. Rendle, who was the manager of the Public Service Superannuation Fund, wrote individually to a number of public servants in 1912 telling them that the Governinent werd under an obligation to employ them until they were seyenty years of age; but another Act came in, and . the Government said those men had to be rehred at sixty-five years of age.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Xo other Act ever cnrnc in.

Mr. KERR: \Vel!, it was a regulation. The :.\1inistcr knows as well as I do that in his o\vn department certain officers "\Yore retired.

The ATTORNEY-G£NERAL: In accordance \\ith the 1912 Act.

Mr. KERR : Is this letter wrong, or is it not?-

.. If you contribute under Tables B, D, F, or H, you will acquire the right to remain in tho service until the age of sevent.c, and your contributions will continue until that age, when your rights to incapacity allowanc0. if you ha.ve con­nibutccl for that benefit, will cease, and your annuit,v \Vill comm0nce, and, if you hav" contributed for assurance, tln sum a• mred will be pa:·n.ble a.t death, or you may, on rctiren1ent, exchange for an ,odditional annuity according to its value."

The ATTOI!NEY-GEOiERAL: \Yho wrote that?

:VIr. KERR: That is signed by "Robert Rendlc, Manager," and is dated at the Public Service Superannuation Board Office, Bri,bane. December, 1912.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It i.s in conflict with the .\et of 1912.

l>Ir. KERR : These men wore public servants, and it took the G(,vcrnment eight or ten years to find out that that statement conflicted wit~ the Act. Here is the manager ha vmg ccrtam knowledge lhat thev would be ret·aincd as an obligation on tllc State, and then the Government come into power a.nd, to make room for some of their sup­porter-s, they i1nmcdiately "'sack" some men at sixty-fiYo years of age, give thorn no benefit until the;· reach the age of seventy, but at the same time compel them to pay therr contnbutwns until they reach that age.

[12.30 p.m.]

lVlr. FERRICKS: \Vhich Government fixed the retiring .ago at sixty-five years?

Mr. KERR: The present Government are responsibl0 for the awful situation that has arisen, and they mu.-t do the right thing in that regard. No Government should hkil up the attitude that the Government have done on this question. It wouJ.d b~ a very ;mall matt-or to give due justice to the men con­cerned. It is a mere quibble to say that the manager tnisinterpretcd the Act. The tirne has arrived when it is necessary to talk pretty straight on this matter. It is a pretty rott<>n deal, to say the very least of it, for any Government to take such .an action as this Government took m this matter.

Mr. ROBERTS (Rast Too1coomba): I am very glad to know that the Attorney-General thinks the position-and he is guided. by

[ 1lf r. ]{ er1·.

expert advice-is sufficiently good to make provision for th<3 increased payments pro­posed. It must be borne in mind that up to the present there have not been very largo payments from the fund.

At 12.31 p.m., Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong), one of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, rdievod the Chair­man in the chair.

Mr. ROBERTS: I am concerned at this moment for the public servants mentioned by the hon. 1nomber for Env)·sera. The advocacy of the rights of those men, who had contributed to the fund under the belief that they would bo retained in the public service until they reached the age of sm·enty years, is no new thing. I rcrnernber on a previous occasion quoting the letter referred to by the hon. member for Enoggera, and the Hon. J. A. Fihelly, the tlH'Il Tn'asurer, and at the time acting Loader of this House, promised to give the matter cons1deratwn .

W-o are told that the fund is solvent. \\'e have to recognise that the co:1tributions of these men have assisted to this mh·oncy. Thrs morning I gla.nced .at the report of the Public Son-ice Commissioner. l \Vould ask tho Attornov-Gencral to consider the state­ment made by that officer on page 72 of his report, for it is in substantiation of the statement made by the hon. member for Enoggera that these men wor-e _led to belic;ve that they would be retamed Ill the servrco until they reached the age of ,,eventy years. The statement reads-

" But the cases of manv of the older men arc hard. Undoubt.cdly some of those to whom the ' age 70 ' scale of the Superannuation Act applied jo~ncd the fund nnder the ' a.ge 70' provrswns m the honest belief that their services woul·d bo retained to age 70 ;

" The 1922 5 per cent. deductions from salary and the stopping of certain seal<:> increases weighed heavily upon most of them· and the substarrtial salary increases of re~ent years came rather late to benefit them materially. However, thrs · agP 70' group is a. steadily dwindling one; in a few vears it will havL· vanished entirely." ~

The fact that the nu m hors are getting less does not take away from the genuineness of the position. 'Iho point is that there is an obligation on the Government to contmue these men in employment until they reach the age of seventy years. The hon. member for South Brisbane asked, by way of mter­jcction. who introduced the Act which pro­vided for tho retiring age at sixty-five years. I want to say quite definitely that, in my opinion, if the Government answerable for that Act had boon in power, they would have stood up to their obligations. Mr. E. II. Macartney, a former member for Toowong, who had charge of the Bill in 1912, was ':t all times a. strong .advocate of thcl publ:c service; and I am sati>•ficd that men of hrs characwr would have stood bv their obliga­tions, as intimated by the the!1 of!iccr of the Crown who was in charge of the mpcrannua­tion fund,

Mr. FARRELL (Rockhampton): I con­gratulate you, Mr. Maxwoll, on taking the chair for the first time.

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Apprenticeship Act [5 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 375

Mr. F ARRELL: There is certainly a lot to be eaid in favour of the argument put forward by the hon. members for Enoggera and East Toowoomba. I have had personal experience of many cases of old teachers who took up units of assurancf;~ and incapacity on the; understanding that they would be con­tinued in the service until they reached the age of seventy years. 1'hose teachers did not come under the good conditions introJnccd by the Labour Government of Queensland. For the most part they were teachers who received salaries of £2, £3, or £4 a "·eek, which left them little or nothing to make prm·ision for their old age. rrhe younger lTICll, ·who are IlO\V

able to take advantage of the prc_ ent Act and the incrusecl beneftis mentioned in thi,, Bill, arc the tea( hers 'vho bay0 rer0ived good salaries as a rr<;;ult of this Government being in power. I, therefore, support the plea of hon. members opposite, \Yhu have stressed the point that consideration 'hould br• giYcn to tho:>e old teachers and other public -01'­

Yants \Yho ha-..-e been retired, illthough givL'll to understand that they -, ould !JP kept in the serYice until they reached the age of seYcnty years.

,\ t 12.36 p.nL.

The CHAIR1L\N resumed the chair.

FARRBLL: Probably it might be to do somethi"g for these old

scn-anb of the State frotH this fund, si1nilar to •. ·hat was clone m::der the• \Vorkcrs' Com­pensation Act. lJnder that Act miners particularly who contracted phthisis prio1· to the introduction of tlw \\-orkero' Com­pE~nsa tion Act "\verc gi \~en D..ll allo\vanco up to £2GJ by the '•Vorkors' Compcnc:CLtion Depart­ment, although they were not insurred a;r,ainst that disease- In the same way, the Suprer­annuation Board might set aside a portion of the accumulated funds for the purpose of helping those public servants who con­tributed to the superannuation scheme on the basis of their continuance in the service until they \vcro seventy year;;; of age.

Question put and passed.

The House resumed.

The CHAIR1!.-I.X reported that the Com­mitt;,e had como to a re•colution.

Resolution agreed to.

FIRST READING.

The AT'rORNEY-GENER \L (Hon. .J. 1\Iu!lan, F/inders) present0d the Bill, and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time."

Qn _,stion put and passed. Second reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for to-morrow.

APPRE"'\TICE'lHIP ACT Ai\IEKDrviF::'-IT BILL.

SECOND READiliG.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD IC\DUSTRY (:Hon. D. A. GledsorL lpswirh): In woYing the second reading of this Bill, I have Yen- little to add to mv remarks at the i.nitiato.ry stages of the mf\.'1s\ue, which is purely formal, and is designed for the pur­pose of giving greater powers to the depart­ment to deal with the Apprenticeship Act of 1924. Since the passing of that Act, the

Aprwonticeship Department has become self­contained; previously it was attached to the Labour Department. The offices of the department are situated in the Treasury Building, where the whole activities of the Apprenticeship Department are conducted, and the Bill now before thP House provides for the transferPnce of dnt.ies from the Director of Labour to the chairman or the secretary of the Apprenticeship Committee as may be required. '

Apprenticeship is evoh·ing into a fine art in many countries. In the United States of Ar_nerica at one .time they ha-d an apprentice­ship scheme which continued for some years. It then went out of oneration but to-clav they are gain?: back" to th~ se stem o'f apprenticeship, P.nd I find that that countrv has its eyes upon the Queensland apprel1tice­ship scheme.

Mr. CoRREH: Mr. Valentine h .d his c•ves on their schcnw. "

The SECRET~\RY .FOR LAD01JR AND I?'i"D"CSTRY: l\lr. Val<•ntinc w,~ not talking so much about the apprent;cc .hip businoP.; as ho was of the general co+opcrat2on of employers and employees.

Mr. CORSEll: He showed the freedom \Yhich cxist:3 in .A ... nH'rica.

The SBCHETAHY FOR LXilOL'R A:'\D I~DUSTRY: In this measure we are dc:tl­ing purely \vith apprenticeship·, and cannot deal "ith the general qw ;lion of the rC'lat1ons between c1nployer and employee. Tlw " :\lechanical Engineering,'' a monthly journal printed in New York, has this to tell us in it~ issue of ).1av last-

" The re·vival ~ of apprenticeship in .-'\mmican inclustrv may be said to have passed through t-;;-o phasc•s, and bo now entering a third. 1;-,irst, that of sccpti­cisnl, EYcr J'Ono associa tecl tho idea of apprenticeship with the obsolete con­ditions of the family factory, ,;here pride in the craftsmanship of the product existed, and \Vhcrc a pat'rnal intorc-;t was felt in the young men who c:tme to learn those painstaking· methods of fabrication practise-d bv the )lreceding generation of workmen. URocognising that those conditions had departed for eYcr, it was assumed that they had carried with thorn the trade apprentice. Modern mochinery and producti,-e methods pre­cluded the continuance of such a- system, and industrv was franklv doubtful of its return. MOreover, gre8dy corporations had hrought the term ' n ppr<•ntice' to mean little more than an ill-paid helper. But the economic need of better-traiued mechanics showed that something had been lost in the passing of hom >t appren­ticeship, and a now effort has thus forced upon our larger industries. Second, that of development. Alteration and evolu­tion of plan followed in this phase of progres~. 1\rlanagement be ;ran to realise­that the new apprenticc,hip contrncts were a practical advance upon tho old· time indenture-less rigid in thPir terms, more appealing to our young rncn, rnoro adapted to modern shop conditions, and having desirable contacts with Pxisting agencies of vocational education."

That shows that America is turning her eyes towards the newer method of apnrcntiecship. In this Bill we are taking powdr to tighten up the ,regulations to enable us to continue

Hon. D. A. Gledson.]

376 Apprenticeship Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

that system of apprenticeship which not only sees that the lads or girls, as the case may be, get through their training in the workshop, but that they also get through their vocational training, and I might say incidentally in passing that the Department of Public Instruction in Queensland is doing a splendid work along those lines.

In this connection, I have aho an extract frorr1 "The Timbcr1nan,'' \vhich is a.n inter­national lumber journal dealing with matters affecting the timbe•r industry, joinery, car­pentry, and other matters tlno!lgh~Llt the world, and is published in .. \mcrico.. I am not going to delay the House by quoting the whole extract, but I would point out that it -deals specially with the training of apprentices in Queensland. and follows on the visit to America of a Brisbane employer, Mr. vVilliam Blackband. Th~ article -hows what tho people of America and other countries think of the apprenticeship scheme in Queensland, and sums up the position in these 'vords-

" The apprenticeship system of Queens­land as •reflected by the splendid training· given its young n1en for the variou::; trades could be ve·ry appropriately used as a model by the woodworking and other industries of the United Statf's. Here we find that men with a basic training arc recruited into the channels of industry with a thorough fundamental knowledge of the industry they seek to follow. Sooner or later the United States will a.dopt some simila·r system of apprenticeship training. \Y c' arc develop­ing too large a, class of 'handy man' rather than skilled mechanics, hy our lack of definite training."

That shows plainly that the Amcri< .tn system is evolving a dass of "handy men," so that the labourer on the lower scale of wages can clo practically any work done in America. Instead of training apprentice< to do that work. we find fr0in the records that tlH'Y have to draw skilled mechanics from other countries to train their men.

:Mr. PETERSOX: There io; a ro:·tridion on the nun1bcr of apprentices here~ too, causing more unskilled labour.

The S1WRET.ARY FOR L.\BOt'R ~\'2'\D INDUSTRY: \Vc restrict tLc nlll>!hor of apprentices so that an employer cm only take as apprcntic.::>::: tho . .,c lach w]wnt he can train and look after. \Ye do not. rcllow employers to flea-cl their shops with a number of lads thev arc not able to look n.ft-cr and train. Th,;t is done under the UIYarch of the Board of Trade ancl Arbitration IYhich coyr•r particular industries, nnd not und('r tfw Apprenticeship Act, as the hon. memlH•r for :\'ormanby ought to know. The c\pprcntice­ship Act makes prm·i ion for the indentur­ing of the boys. Committees arc !hero in look after them end ecc that they get proper training, and also for vorational training-. During the last tv~,o or three :.:- 1rs in Quecn:<­land wo hav-e been placing qnitc a numb(~r of boys as apprentices; and I want to figures showing ·what has bc:!1l done by committees which have been appointed. In passing I would point out that tho ExeoutiYo of the Apprentic.e,,hip Committ· 2, thP Group Committees. and A·dvisory Corrunittcc all over Queensland, on which both Pmployers and ernployec3 aro rcprcsente·d, have gin~n

[Hon. D. A. Glcclson.

every assistaucc to the department. Soms of the employers who have taken up tbis work are very keen, and have gone out of their way to try to help the lads. They ]'Ut in a great deal of time in visiting not only the different workshops whore thcso laJs arc employed but in visiting the rol!PgC classes to see that the boys arc getting t!w proper technical training-. They have also been engaged in trying to get greater facili­ties for the boys to obtain proper training, which they arc entitled to receive.

Mr. CLAYTON: So far as the awards will allow.

The SECRET.A.RY FOR LABOUR AND INDCSTRY: The awards will ailow lho proper training of apprentices right up to· the iimit; there is no limitation on the training of apprentices.

Mr. CLAYTON: There is on the number.

Th" SECRETARY FOR L\BOTJR ~iND INDUSTRY: They place a limitation on the number because they will not allow a g-reater number of boys to he apprenticed than can be properly trained.

Mr. CLAYTON: Some who ~amwt obtain adrnission have to go to labourir..;;- work.

Tlw ST~CRETARY FOR LADOLJR AND INDUSTRY: The following is a liet of apprentices attending college clasEcs at the end of th<' second term this y<·,11', which ended on the 5th August last:-

BRISBANE.

Boot ]Iauufacturing-

Making Clicking

Building­

Bricklaying Carpentry and Joinery PH.inting Pla,tering Plumbing Sign,vriting Stonemasonrs

7 11

55 307

37 47

208 19 16

('ouch and Jiotor Borly Il'uilding-

Buil-ding 38 Painting 34 Smithing 3 Trjmrning . 7

F:lrrtrical 189 Electro-pl0.tinu 12

l<,.'n(!inccring-

Blarksmithing 12 Boilermaking 25 Fitting and Turning 188 ·Motor ::\1echanics 204 ~foulding 13 Pattcrn-nutkjng . 8

Diploma Course 12

l?1trniture-

Cabinctmakinr: 104 French Poli>hing 53 Upholstering 23 \Vickerworking Sl Wood Machining 61

]8

689

82 189 12

~51 12

262

Apprenticesh;p Act [5 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 377

Leather-Saddlery Trunk and Case Making

Jfusical lnstt·umcnt Makinu.

Priniinr;-Bookbinding Corr1posirig ... Letterpress Machining Linotyping .. . . .. Lithography .. . .. . Newspaper Composing Paper Ruling ... .. Paper Cutting Process Engraving

Retail Butcherinu TVoorlcarvinu Shcctmetal

Bundaberg Cairns Mackay Maryborough '\1ount Morgan Ipswich Rockhampton Toowoomba Townsvillc

5 13

18 11 ll

22 63 50

6 9

17 2 1

24 199

13 13 1 1

36 36

1,993 91 31 32

104 12

113 133 112 102

730

Total 2,723

J\lr. RonERTS: Do the Ipswich fi·_,ures inclu·de the railway workshops'

The SECRETARY FOR LABOCR .. \1\'D INDUSTRY: Probably they do.

An 0PPOSJTIO:~-< lVlEMBER: Do vou sav thcv a re receiving vocational traini~g? ~ ·

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: Those are the apprentices who "'He receiving vocational training.

An 0PPOSITIO:S .:'IIE:IIBER : Arc they regis­tered?

The SECRETARY FOR LA HOT:H AXD IN'DUS'I'RY: They are registe,:cd bv t!w Apprenticeship Committee, arid. arc crmilovpd an'l being trained as apprentict•s. .. ·

Mr. CORSER: ·where do you get the figur"'' from?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOFTl A?\D IKDUSTRY: From our offi,·cr,;, who kc,.p rr rc~istcr of apprenticc:j.

Mr. KCRR: How many applications do you get?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY: We have that information in the oHicc. too, but I cannot say off-hand. Vi-..,.~· have far more applications than we have npcminf;s for boys. Everyone knows the.t for ~ome considerable time (luik a number of bo~rs \vhorr1 \VC have not been abl~ to p}aco have been applying to be apprenticed. 1 .su pposn that for over"' boy \Ve pla-ce wo have tlu cor four applicants for the position.

Mr. RonERTS: That appliu to ordinary work, too.

Thc S1i;CRETARY FOR LABOUH AND IKDUS'l'RY: I am dealing now with a pprcnticeship.

Mr. KERR: The apprenticeship executive does not provide any work for those boys?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WoRKS: Ewployers do not recognise their obvious duty.

,Th•· SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND 1:\DUSTRY: The function of the executive is io place as many boys as it can, and during the year ended 30th June, 1927, 773 boys were found positions through the ,\pprenticcship Committees. 'l'hat shows that they arc doing. something, and are getting the co-operation of both employers nnd employcC'~:J in an endeavour to make the Act effective; but one of the difficulties that we have is that we h:we a number of appli­cants for each job, and we arc not able to place them alL Nobody would be better pleased than the members of the executive, both cmplovers and employees, if they could place all ,,;ha apply. 1 think anybody who considers the question at all believes that a man who has lea.rned a trade makes a better citizen than a man without a trade, even if, aft.er he has learned it, he is not able to continue, because a good tradesman will make a good labourer. W c are attempting to train as n1any boys as we can, but we have to be careful that we do not attract lads, or any­body else for that matter, into industries w hero ther(' is going to be no ocope for their employment when they grow up.

Mr. MOORE: How can you tell that, in ,-iew of the <:'xpansion of industry?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND IXDUS'I'RY: We mav not be able to toll it always, but \Ve earl in sorne industries; and we are endeavouring to find out now so that the executive will be in a position to say to the lads, " Hero is an industry in which you will be able to get work." For instance, we found that a number of boys were appren­ticed to the leather industry, but, owing to the increasing operation of motor vehicles taking the place of horse-drawn vehicles, the leather industry has practically fallen to pieces, and very little harness or saddlery is being made. 'I'he consequence is that nnny lads who were apprenticed perhaps nvo years ago have had to get out of it, and the executive is endeavouring to get them into other avenues of employment. Vi' e were able to place a number as upholsterers, using the training they had had in leather work for that purpose. Vl7o may not be able to tell beforehand in all cases, hut we can in some.

Mr. MOORE: You could not tell in that c 'se, because the motor trade has developed to an extent you could not foresee.

The SRCRETARY FOR LABO'GH AND JXD'GSTRY: Vv'0 could not foresee it; but, ·when the thjng happens, \VC can realise it. The probability is that the leather trade will not be an industry in which to apprentice hds; anybody who keeps his eyes open knows that. A lot of the work which was Jone in the West by tertms is being done now by motor lorries, and it is our duty to keep in close touch with such matters, and be able to say to this boy or that, "It is no tmod your starting in the saddlery or leather lnu~incss, because there is no scope at that work."

[2 p.m.]

It will be interesting to hon. members to know the details of the number of apprentices

Hon. D. A. Gledson.]

378 Apprenticeship Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

placed for the year ending 30th June last. The total number of apprentices placed was 773, and the details are as follows:-

Bal.ing-Bread baking Pastry cooking

Boot 1liannjacturing­Making Clicking Finishing

Building­Bricklaying Carpentry Painting Plasterino· Plumbing Sign writing Stonemasonry \Vood l\1achining

Clay-1corking

Clothing-Order Tailoring

Confe··tioncrJ Cooks Coopcrinr; Dental J[cchunic,, Electrical

Enginecring­Blacksmit.hing Boilerrnaking· Fitting and Turning Motor Mechanic Moulding Pattern-making

Furniture­Bedding-making Vv"' i,rcma ttress-1nakin g Cabinet-making French Polishing G·las3 Bevelling Leadlight Upholstering Vcnetian Blindmaking \Vicker-working Wood Machining

Lcathe?"­Bagmaking Leather-work in[; Harncs-;-making Trunk and Case ]}laking

}Jotor Body Building­Smithing Painting Body building Trimming

ilfu3ical lns!J·umrnt .liaking­Piano Tunjng

Printing-Bookbinding Composing Paper-ruling Letter-press J.Vlachininf( Lithography Process Engraving

[lion. D. A. Gleclson.

14 6

16 3 1

18 136

26 19 42 7 3 8

.Xi!

37 1 2 3 9

51

10 7

47 76 10

... Nil

2 3

24 16 5 2 1 2 4

11

7 1 1 7

3 11

9 8

3

7 24 3 6

.. Nil 6

20

20

259

37 1 2 3 9

51

150

70

16

31

3

46

Sheet Jietal 14 14 11' atchrnakcrs, Jewellers, and

Opticians-Watchmaking 2 Jewellery 1 Optometry 4

7 Electroplating 4 Electric 1Velding 1 1 Butchering 29 29

Total 773

The S:· 'HETARY FOil PuBLIC \VORKS: There is no mention there of either journalic-,ts or politicians.

Mr. ELPHINSTOXE: It requires no training to become a politician. Any one will do for that.

The SECRETARY FOH LABOl7R A:\D INDCSTRY: In addition to dcctling with matters of general a.dmini,tration, the Bill also deals with the matter of transfors. V cry elastic prO\-isions are made to enable a lad to be transferred from one employer to another or from one branch of industry to another, if it is found necc3Sary. The greatest nu1nbcr of tra.nsfcrs) of cOurse, is fron1 ono cn1ployer to another in the sa1ne industry. Very often it is found that an employer for son":> reason or other is unable to carry on, and he is allowed to transfer h1~ ap'1rcntices to some other employer in thG sa1~H~ industrv. \Ve have a nuDJbe:r of appli­cations for ~transfers in cases '\'--hero an Prnploycr gives up his busincs, a..nd somo other employer succeeds him. P1ovision is made in this Bill for the transfer of the apprentice to the new employer. \Ve have found there has been a diflicultv in connec­tion with transfers. Sometirn~~s transfers ha.vo been all arranged and everything f1xod up, and the lad commPnces working for his uew employer, when it is found that all the details have not been completed. That dis­covery may only be made through something going vvrong months after the transfer is made. Provision is made in the Bill that the transfer, if it has not b·'Ctl completed through neglect, shall be as full and effectual as if it rad been completed. The main pro­visions of the Bill have been LcKplained, and hon. membm-s should have no difliculty in seeing just exactly V\'hat is airncd at. I br~g to move-

" That the Bill be now read a second ilrnc."

Mr. MOORE {Aubigny): At the outset I v.-ish to point out the awkward position in which members have been pbced by having this Bill handed to them only half an hour before the .1:-Iom'•J met to-da v. It should ha.ve been made available at lc.ast last night in order that it might be pormecl and an oppor­tunity giYcn to hon. members to sue just where the amendments came in; but, when members are rwt given copies of the Bill until jnst before the House meets, it is not at aB c-onvcnirmt, rrho san1e ren1ark3- apply to the l~nemploycd vVorkers Insurance Act Anwndrncnt Bill. Hon. members are com­pe]],,d to rrly for information as to the contenlo of the Bill on the Minister's second r0ading speech. That should not be the case; and the Bills should be in the posses­sion of hon. members in sufficient time to permit of their studying their contents.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The Bill was tabled yesterday.

Apprenticeship Act [5 OoTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 379

Mr. MOORE: But it did not arrive from the Government Printing Office until this morning, and was not given to hon. members until close on 10 o'clock, which did not give sufficient oppmtunity for studying such an irnportant measure.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: There is no reason whv it should not be made avail­able as soon a-s the Order of Leave is given.

Mr. MOORE: At any rate, some arrange­ment should be made to meet hon. members in this direction.

The Minister stated that there were three or four applicants to become apprentices for ever:· one approved.

The SECR~CTARY ron I~ABOUR AXD IxnesrnY : I did not say that definitely; I said that it would probably be ~o.

~.Ir. MOORE: I quite believe that it would be so. There is certainly a greater number of applicants than the board a·.cpts.

The iiiinister also stated that the more apprentices trained the better, because a man was none ihe worse for having boon taught a trade if in later years he was compelled to take on labouring. work. I agree with that, hut at the same time the difficultv to-dav i< that there are many boy' anxious to learn a trade who are not given the oppor­tnni(y. Consideration should be given to that important matter, and the scope of the Act rnight be so v·:idened as to provide that all those >vho de,ire to learn a trade shall lwve the opportunity to do so. :VIany change, may take place which will penuit of the absorption of all those boys, because we do not know just what alterations in the tariff, for example. will bo made resulting· in the extension of industrial activities in this country.

The SFnRETAllY FOil AGRICULTL'RE : Do you know that in the majority of cases the firms which could train apprentices have not the quota which the law allows them to have?

fir. MOORE : I know that there is provi­sion in the Apprenticeship Act to compel thos' firms to take apprentices if the Apprenticeship Committee considers that such rr step shou Id be taken.

The Minister has mentioned that there are not likely to be opp~"JTtunifles htte1· o:1 fm· the placing of boys \1 ho a re at prc.•n'lt learn­int_. tradt'i because of the nltcrntlon of condi­tions in c.:rtain industries. It is, ho\vevc.r, very diflicult to say ju:;t what conditions will operate. All sorts of thirv;s 1nay bavpen in a few years, and, as I have :,ajd, an e:Ypa":.­sion of industrv 111av rcsul.t fr Jrn C'ortain alterations in the tariff.

l>.Lntion has been mane of apprentices to the leather trade, in connPction with which ir ha. boon stated that th<'re has been a decline in businc~:,, \~ ith a corresponding C'cpansion in the motor industry trade; but it is difiicult for the Apprentieec.hip Com­rnitt.eo to say vvhat trade is going to be expanding in three or four years.

The SECRET.\RY FOR AGRICCLTUHE: Know­ledge of a tr~tdc is not a hard thing to carry.

Mr. J\IOORE: That is so; hut the Appren­ticeship Committ··e is restricting the number of appronUccs.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULT!;RE: No; the employe'' has a right to employ as many apprentices as he i> entitled to under the a\Yard.

Mr. MOORE : But the Apprenticeship Committee, when the applications come to it. makes selections as to the number that can he employed, and, as has been stated, there are three or four applicants to every one who is placed. When wo find boys are anxious to become apprentices, it appears to me that an opportunity should he given to them to learn the different trades. As the Secretary for Agriculture says, it is not hard for a boY to carry a trade, but it is very hard for him to secure the opportunit,, to J.earn a trade. Every opportunity should be given to boys in this regard, rather than restrict tho opportunities to those who are being trained at the present time.

Again, we find an edurationd te--t must be p·1ssed hy the boys before the:' can become apprentices at all. In that connectwn I sho11ld like to quote a statement that appeared in the report of the intorvieiV, with ~vir. -valcntJne, sho1v1ng how drfforcnt tn1ngs are in A1nerica to -what they are here. 11r. Valentine sa·, __

" \Vhen ~'Otmg men entered shops in -~n1crica ;-;;::; labourers, they "\vere given an opportunity to better themselves. Thev could be promoted to helpers. Later thcv could become machine operators. nncl if they cared to attend vocational clas"cs thev could become tool­rnakers and n1echar1'ics. Ther"_. \vas a chance of getting out of the rut so long as thoro was ability to learn the JOb. Some rnen had con1rnonced as labourers, and reached an executive post. \Yas not that the propn war?

"·were they doing the right thing when they said that, because a man could not get his first job as an a.pprcn­tice, he was to be a labourer for .the rest of his life? asked :\Ir. Valcnhne. The system was entirely wrong, and it should be corrected."

ilfr. RoBERTS: That is in America. The ;l:linistcr told us this morning that m America they are copying our ::ystem.

JHr. MOORE: ~Ir. Valentine >Yas referring to the difference between Queensland and Amcric:t, and he points out that our system is entirely tvrong. In America it is not nece"arv to pa':s any educational test. All that is "ncceseary for the boy is to have a des in to learn a particular trade. That IS

,,-hat we should establish here, and not nocessarilv haY~~ an educ<tional test before he can become a manual labourer or a skilled worker in a tmde which probably does not require any educational qualification what­ever. If he has a bent fm the particular industry that he wants to go into, that should be sufficient. and the mere frrct that he cannot pass Un examination should no~ dehar him from becoming an apprentice m that particular trade.

The SECllETARY FOR AGRIC1JLTl'RE: There arc certcin trades where an educational qnalif1cation is necr:-:sary.

Mr. MOOHE: That is so, such as engineer­ing, where a knowledge of math(ematics is required. But this is not an clastic Bill at all. It is a hard-and-fast provision that the boys must pass an educational test before they can become apprenticed.

'When the Minister was speaking I was r:c.thcr puzzled as to what the different clauses mc'an, as he did not give any explanation of their provisions. There are two main

111 r. 211 oore.]

380 Apprenticeship Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

clauses in the Bill-one about transfers, and the other providing that the chairman of the Advisory Committee shall have all the powers of the whole committee under certain circumstances. As I read it, apparently if one member of the Advisory Committee or one member of the Group Committee becomes disqualified through any of the reasons given in the regulations, such as rcJigning, not attending three meetings without sufficient reason, or if two-thirds of the committee request his resignation, then the chairman shall become the whole board.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : J\io.

Mr. MOORE : That is the way it reads in this Bill, .and I do not think the :Yiinister can read any other meaning into it. I am not Sl1ggesting that the chairman in a case where all the members become disqualified should not have power to cany on; but this clause certainly says that, if ono member out of the six becomes disqualifi.od, thon the chairman becomes the whole committee and carries on irrespective of the others, who have no further voice in the matter. I cannot see the reason for it. This to my mind is a very great faetor, because the committee has important duties to fulfil. The other m"mbers of the committee are nonentities, because the chairman has full say nndcr certain conditions. 'This committee possesses the right to be able to accept an apprentice, or to refuse to allow anyone to become an apprentice. Under circumstances like that we want to have the committee as representa­tive as possible, and not allow all its powers to get into the hands of one individual.

The Minister has given us a lot of figures as to the number of apprentices whc haYc been placed during the last twelve months. The very fact of showing that thc>re ar<J those wishing to learn a trade who f!o not !:et the opportunity of ·doing so indicates that there is need for some other method by which they can get the opportunity. In connection with the returned soldiers' vocational training classps it has been proved that in many cases a returned soldier has been enabled to learn the technicalities of a trade within six and sometimes within three months, and to do excellent work. It seems to me that youth~ should have the same opportunity, and tnat there should be some way by which those who are anxious to learn a i.nHle ulHl cannot do so under the method i'l vc,gae to-day should ha,-e an opportunity of ;;etting practical and theoretical training rhrough lhe technical oolleges. Though we .have 2,Clf'G apprentices at the present time, tl:.D.t rn.1n1her does not seem sufficient, having regard h th,, population of Queensland and the numb'r of boys who are leaving school. There !ll'·cds to be a wider opportunity for thos" who desire to learn trades than there is ab pre­sent. If we give a boy the opportunity of lo0arning a trade, it doef, not 1nean rhat he must necessarily follow it up afterwards. There will bo degrees of competency on tl.e part of those who go through the period. of apprenticeship, and those who are mosl cr,m­p<>tent will have the bPst opportunicy of getting on in the trade.

The Minister shoul·d see that everyone desirous of learning a trade should ha v•. tlw opportunity of doing so. The-re seems to be a limitation in the amendment which the Minister put forward on the last occasion when the measure was before the Hou0o, by

[Mr. Moore.

which a union could step in and s3tl that boys should not be apprenticed to onc-etan shops unless the employer had sufficient technical knowledge or mechanical appliances to train the npprentice in the way the com­mittee thought fit. It is probable that in a one-man shop in a country town there is not the opportunity of teaching all the things that would be necessary in a particular trade in Brisbane or Sydney, but quite enough to Pnable an apprentice to make a good living in the kind of work he would be called upon to do in a countrv district. Then he would have an opportunity afterwards of going to a larger centre of population and following up his occupation there and learning the finer points in the trade.

I do not think anyone can say that the conditions at present are satisfactory, especi­ally in view of the remarks made by :Yir. Valentine since his return from the United States. America seems to give far 111ore opportunity to a boy who is anxious to v,et on by enabling him to attend vo•laticnal classes and giving him other facilitie,, with­out having to go through a lot of formalities and .attend before a committee, '.vhich has then to decide whether he is cornretent or not. That is the position "we want to arrive nt in Queensland, because it has proved efficient in America. If an unsblled hbourer. for instance, after a number of ycara ~:csir('.:-:­to take up a trade, he should have thL' oppor­tunity of doing so.

To-day the Board of Trade and ,\rbitration is the only authority which can decide as to the age at which thev can start out to learn a trade and in many instances it is limited to a ve~y early age. It is not necessary t~at it should be so. I remember the questiOn was discussed when the principal Act was going through, and it was then pointed our that, even if a man were thirty or forty years of age, he should have the opportunity to learn a trade, if he desired to do so. All these things are of very vital importance in connection with the industrial position of the State. The more people to whom we can give the opportunities of becoming skilled workers the better, even if after they have got into a particular trade the opportunity to continue after they ha vo finished their term of apprenticeship does not eventuate. The opportunity may come afterwards-per­haps very shortly afterwards-and it is an abwlute mistake to restrict the opportunities to learn a trade merely because it is thought that that trade is not going to be able to ah•orb the nuniber of apprentices placed in it. \Vo have to remember that skilled workers, although they may learn their trade in Queensland, may not live here all the rest of their lives. Openings may occur in New South V\' ales, Victoria, or other countries. We have had skilled workers go to America because they thought the openings there were better, and that moans that those who· have been counted as being in the industry in Queensland are gradually making way for others. I have noticed in the press that many men have gone to America at different times and improved their positions tremendously, because thev had there wider opportunities and a bette; chance of putting to the best use the skill thev had acquired here. It is right that we should recognise that fact. It is right that we should recognise that there is a general wastage of men who would like to try different places where they may see an opportunity for making a better !iYing. We

Apprenticeship Act [5 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 381

must not take merely statistical returns of the industry to-day, 'or consider only what t.hat industry is likely to expand to in a few years, and restrict the number of appr(~ntices who go into it accordingly, thinking that in a few years it will be overcrowded. We have to remember that it is quite true that apprentices will go to other States and get into the industry there if they have the requisite training. In secondary industries we have not yet reached the position that we find in primary industries, "\vhcre a rnan, if he wants a ccrLin job, has to undertake <:'Olnpulsor_) residence conditions for life whore that job is. I think it is a great mistake, because we tic the man as ,.·e have no right to tic him. If he wants to go elsewhere, he should h11 ve m·ery chance to do so. In the secondary industries he has that chance at prP~>·ent, and we ought to give hin1 every encouragement to go into skilled industries. so that he can get out of the rut of un <killed labour and get into the more skilled indus­tries, where he can earn more and be a greater benefit to himself, his family, and the State.

1\Ir. ELPHINSTOJ'\E (Oxlcy): A good m<tny f<tthers and mother, have bc,•n looking forward to this Bill. They haYe been hoping that it would help them to find an outlet for the energies of the youngsters who are coming on, and provide an opportunity to get them into ~ome occupation. Whether anything to which utterance has been given during this debate so far holds out much hope for those mothers and fathers is another matter. It seems rather a tragedy that Queensland, with ono of the best educational systems in the world-probably that is not an exaggerated statement to make-should turn out these young boys and girls from the primary and secondary schools, should give them the advantage of a good primary education and then the opportunity of a secondary education on very easy terms and conditions, and then, when those boys and girls-especially the boys-want an oppor­tunity to begin work in some trade or calling. \vhic'h is so very necessary if the State is to get the best value out of them, shonld turn round and tell them that the openings are not there. That is where

the disillusionment comes, and [2.30 p.m.] nothing is more pathetic than

to come in contact with, argue or reason with, these mothers and fathers, and tell them that under the conditions which prevail you can hold little or no hope of giving these boys an opportunity to learn a trade.

The Minister has given us a very good exposition of the working of the apprentice· ship scheme. It has been improved ~ear in and year out until to-day, as a p1er,e of machinery, it is quite good. The Minister is not claiming anything unreasonable when he says that employers and emplovees are working together harmoniously for the good and ,,uecess of the scheme; but it does not matter how hard they may work in co­operation, it is quite beyond their powers to create openings for the boys. It seems to me that, recognising tho position we are in to-day and recognising that there are thou­sands of young boys looking for trades, this House would be well occupied in discmsing ways and means for getting beyond the impasse which we seem to be up against. \V e all know it is ther,e. Every hon. member ,of this House has probably the same experi·

ence in regard to boys, and many of us think wo know the remedy. Surely it is not beyond the powers of the s,eventy-two hon. members elected from the whole of Queensland, and gathered tog' thor here, to discov,er what is stopping the development of industry and preventing these boys from engaging in occupations in the directions they desire! \Ye have heard a good deal about America, and for my part there would be nothing amiss in looking to America for information so that we might gain from their experience.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICC:LTURE : It must be remembered that, in addition to her voca­tional training schemes and the training of many of her skilled articians, America imports many of her skilled artisans from Europe.

Mr ELPHINSTONE: I have a note on that very subject-that, in addition to absorbing all apprentices she is able to train, America is drawing skilled artisans from Great Britain in particular. Australia is a country the size of America, but cannot keep her own people employed! Does not that clearly show that America not only absorbs her natural increase in her trades and occupations, but that she has to go abroad to collect additional skilled artisans from other parts of th"c world? Here are we with 1!, persons to a square mile­about one-twentieth the density of the popu­lation of America-with a continent the size of America, and yet we cannot find occupation for our own boys ! That statement is irre­futabk What is the remedy? The remedy is apparent, I should say, to most of us here. All the old-accepted doctrines which in past sessions we have contended were untenable seem to bD falling down one by one ; and. I am sincerely hopeful that the next one we are going to tackle is the industrial situa­tion of Queensland, and that we shall remove all those r,estrictions and regulations which have tied up industry, killed enterprise, and driven capital out of the State, and that c::t pi tal will be encouraged to come and develop the potentialities and resources we so frequently talk about.

You, Mr. Speaker, will not permit a dis­cussion on the whole question of industry in Queensland, but it is very closely inter­locked with this question. \Vo have these boy:; coming on. We have got, as I pointed out in a previous speech, an increase of population of 50,000 in the last three years, vet we have fifteen less factories to accom­;nodate these extra 50,000 people. Any mea­sure which will make it more easy to encourage boys to attend the apprenticeship classes and not give them the opportunit3 oJ engaging the faculties with which they are equipped is a tragedy; and any Govern­ment who set out to mislead tho people as to what we are doing in that regard deserve the castigation of the people. I do urge­and it is a most important point-that of all the measures coming before the House this session none is more important than this­not in the restricted alterations that we pro­pose, but because of the further proof that it provides of the urgent necessity of alter­ing our industrial conditions, and, if still further proof is necessary, we have. it in the remarks made by the Minister that he has two or three applicants for every posi­tion that is offering for boys in Queensland.

Mr. Elphinstone.]

382 Apprenticeship Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDC'STRY : have had 1,400 applicants for the year.

Mr. .ELPHINSTONE : Surely thne is omothing wrong in a country like this, w hi eh

h"'s only ll persons to the square mile, when we cannot find occupation for 1,400 bo:;J "·ho ask to haye the opportunity to learn a trade!

The Leader of the Opposition touched on oue of the restrictions in the apprenticeship conditions 'vhich is both harsh and onerous. That is where the boys are required to pas· a certain educational tandard before thcv <an enter an apprenticeship class and tak:;, aLh-antago of it. The Secretary for Agri· culture interjected that there were cer::.:tin occupations and professions where a good educational grounding is essential. \V e ali ugrco with that. I know a particular instance where a lad who is a perfect marvel at mechanical work is not allov.red to tg,l;:~._\ wdYantage of the provisions of this -;cheme because he has not passed a cerbm educ~· tional standard. ~\s one cnga~~ed in nlecharn­cal work, I state emphatically that it i; quite immaterial to mo what particular standard that boy has passed at school. \Vhat we want to find out is tho inclination and bent of the boy. If he is desirous d following a mechanical calling, why should we restrain him because he h11s not passed the fifth standatd? Thc~c contingcncir.;; are perhaps difficult to provide for when handling sonw thousands of boys; but, seeing the Apprenticeship Committee is laying itc.e]f oLlt to deal with this scheme in the most favour­able manner possible, that harsh restriction should be removed.

The limitation of ago in r~gard to learning an occupation or trade must also bo renscd. We do not say that a man must. manv within certain ages. We permit a man tO rnarry at any stage of his career. \Vhv, then, should WC prevent a boy or a man from learning a trade because he happens to bo ovor .a certain age? rrake, for instance, those who have not had the advantage of the particular apprenticeship scheme now in operation because of its present conditione. Arc those men to be relegated to the industrial scrap-heap all their lives, be­cause, on. account of their ago, they arc not perrmtted to take advantage of its provisions? It is unreasonable, and, if we are going· to tackle this matter serious! v we must of necesoity make prO\·ision so" 'that opportunities are given to those who are at present outcide the age to learn some trade which they are anxious to cultivate. Ono \'erv excellent feature that seems to me to ari;e from this apprentice:hip scheme is the knowledge that the emplo:·cr and the employ"' are ',';orking together for the com­mon good without vny trouble \Vhatcvrr. Cannot we see whether v '' cannot extend Jh.Jt practice a little further, and apply it not only to the training of the boy but also to the 'ctual occupation of the bov, because that is one of the wavs in which we can oYcrcomc industri'll disa:bilitics to-d •,v? Can­not we se10 that a 11 these har;h regu­lations which we are introduciw'-all these nl'ovisions putting a wall ro~nd union­isin-coripolling men to join unjom::, but not compelling them to be qua lifiod-have brought industry to a state of hopekssnc.ss and stagnation that we have got to rescue it from to-day? If the Minister-who is probably a leader of thought in his parti-

F'l'[!h?·nstone.

cular district-will apply his experiences in his association with the Apprcnticr:_ship Committee. acknowledging, as he does, ';h::t this connnitteo of ernploycrs and employees has harmoniously worked together for the benefit of the scheme, surel: he will recog­nise the necessity for ca·rrying the matter a step further !

The SECRETARY FOR LABOL'R A'iD I:o;Du,,TRY: There is, when there is a go1d employer.

::\Ir. ELPI-IINSTONE : How many indus­tries arc doing it? vYhile the s, stem pr,wails that, first of all, a man is compelled to join a union before he can secure oinployn1cnt, and, secondly, where he has to spea), through paid organisers to a Board of Trade and Arbit'l'ation which does not understand the position ho\v can you expect to have har­mony a'nd peace? I read a few. days ago that the Arbitration Court, and 1n Its new form the Board of Trade and Arbitration, \\-hich has been in existence for ei<l'ht or ten years; yet the judges of the J:!oard of Trade and Arbitration have found 1t necessary to traYel on an engine to see v;hat it is like to be an engine-driver ! Imagine that '' fter ten years! Assuming that is going to be apphed to all trades dealt with by this particular Board of Tr::tde and Arbitration, what are iL rn0mbcrs going to do in the next twelvP months? Perhaps they will spend a week at ev01·~o· trade and then know very httle. The" best •nd the only peaceable way of dealing with industrial matters is to allow the conditions of the industry to be deter­mined by men who understand them-not b:,· legal! Y-trained men with no knowled:;c of the actual conditions.

The SPEAKER : Order !

::\lr. ELPHil\'STONE: I am sorry for deviating, :Mr. Speaker, but it is difficult to tackle this subject without refe~rmg to the industrial affairs of the State. We are trymg to ascertain whether the reference in the GoYcrnor's Speech to the introduction of this Bill will afford a new opening to children who have hitherto been depri,-ed of the opportunity of learning a trade; and i.t is not merely the training that IS wanted--It B

the opportunity for the boys to cs:e~·c~se then· energies when they ~ave got a t.rammg that· the mothers ctre loolnng for. It Is, therefore, difficult to discuss one aspect apart from the other.

J\Ir. DASH: They had no chance of appren­ticeship under your Government.

i'llr. ELPHI::\STO"!'\E: I onlv h?pe we shail have an opportunity of showmg tJ:e hon. member what a Government from thiS side of the House can do. If thE' hon. m_em­bPr is going to conderr1n us f?r ~he .arhons of pn :::t Governments. then 1t Is ]USt as ccns]ble for me to hold him responsible for the actions of the Lon. member for JL.Jwon, with ,..-horn the hon. member was yery pleased to assoniate himNelf somo tirne ago. but lntterlv he is not. (Oppositio•1 laughter.) This is too important a matter to treat with ]0,-it·,-. C'nccnsland is dcmancling that atten· tion ·shall be giwn to this. subiect. as ,it offers a solution to our financwl. mdustr1al, and manv other evils. Therefore. I hope that this debate will exercise the attention of the Iious; for sorne ti1ne, because jt is a ver:,~ lntportant one, and many pPop1e are looking for a solution of some of our problems by this means.

Apprenticeship Act [ 5 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 383

Mr. BRUCE (Kennedy): I agree with some of the things th>tt have been said by the last two speakers in reference to the amendment of the Apprenticeship Act. The hon. member who has just resumed his seat may not be responsible for the actions of Tor:y Go·.·prn­ments m the past, who gave no opportumty for hoys to become apprenticed lo dirt•""nt 1 rades. lmt there are hon. members siti,ing on the Opposition side who were in Tory Cabinets, and who know that no opportunity was given by those Governments to boys lo rccci\'O H prop~r training at their particular trade. l think th11t men of any ago, if they >O desire it, chould be allowed to impro. e their position.

CPPC :Inox J\J ,~:.HB~RS : I-! ear, hear ! "\1r. KERR: You should talk to the umon

~''!Cretaries outside. cllr. BRUCE: I am not talking to the

union secreta rils. I am saying it inside this Charuber, alld the sccrotaric.:~ of the unions will know what I say. If a man thirty or forty yenrs of age -..vho is an ho1 est \\Torkr:r \Vishing to improve his position desires an opportunit<.· of doing so, he should have that oppodunity. The worker should not be :ce~trictcrt in that respect any more than the men who want to enter a profc-,sion. llfany members of Parliament and many unskilled workers bccon1c doctors and lawvers later on in life through the exercise of their mental powers by studYing.

Mr. KERR: The union books are closed. :Hr. BRUCE: If this iJ;tcntion were

carried out, it would not be any good to the hon. member, because his mental capacity would not allow him to benefit.

l\Ir. CO,TELLO : You are getting down to the gutter.

The SPE~i.KER: Order! Order!

l\Ir. BHUCE : As a matter of fact I attended a technical college when I ~vas younger, and the ages of the students attend­ing the college at that time ranged from fifteen to fifty years-men and women as v.-cll. vYhv -bould a man because he is a bricldayel·'~ labourer, rem~in a bricklayer's labourer all his life? I do not know why it Is. but ~a-day we ha v? ~chol 'Hs passing cxarmnatwn '· and a maJonty of them are S(>c;king Work in the puhlic service. rrhe p_ublic serYice h.<s reached the point of absorp­twn so far as I can see, and thos-3 boys are unable to secure employment. l\lanv of them after passing a brilliant cxamin~tion, ar~ unable to gr·t cr:Jplo~?nlent, and havo bG.come unsk_illed labourer.-·. . Any intelligent person loolnng a~ the quc<twn fmrly and honestly mu:Jt adnut that not only m Queensland but 1u Anstraha generally wo haYe too manv unsJ;:illed lrtbourers and not enough skilled arhsans. If we want to haYe the skilled artisan, we must. ~alw the Apprenticeship Act broader than 1t Is. I know from practical C'cpcnence that many artisans do come here 8 t . the present time from other countries. Pnor to thn war we had rt number of Gorn1ans '':ho were skilled enginrc-rs looking nft,_r rnaclunrry, and we haYe quite n numbef of ~cotch, Eng-lish, and other nationalities com~ng hero and carrying on thC' \York of carpenters, etc. I remember when General :1Iona·,h imported artisans into Victoria to rlo cerhin \York there. \ilie an :wt different from America in that respect. \¥ e should anwnd the Apprenticeship Act so that \•'e I' hall g-i_vc ~ n opportunity to our own men to quahfy 1f they want to qualify for these

positions. The hon. member who has just resumed his seat said that he noticed recently that it was necessary for the mem­bers of the Board of Trade and Arbitration to examine an C'nginc to see how it worked. As a matter of fact, before they can give a decent judgment, they have to examine overy article used in industry. As a repre­sentative before the court, I have found it necessary to show the members of the Arbitration Court what an ordinarv mining machine could do, and show thorn how it worked. Unfortunately, under the Arbitra-1 ion Court system we appoint fully-qualified legal men to the board, and not practical men so far as industries are concerned.

Mr. ELPHIKSTOXE: Hear, hear ! Go one step further, and then you will have wages hoards.

Mr. BRUCE: I am not going to be led off the track by members of the Opposition. I am simply slating the weaknec,s of our present arbitration systmn~ which was raise·d by the hon. member for Oxley. While we are discussing this questjon of .apprentice­ehip, I would point out that there arc very strong injunctions on the emplo. er and the apprentice in regard to the carrying-out of the apprenticeship, which is only quite right. There should be restrictions; but there is " question that should receive the att0ntion of the members of this House. I do not know whether it is ql!ite right to introduc·e it at the present time, although it applies to apprenticeship work. Very harsh treatment was <'Xhibitcd by the Raih1 ay Dcpartmen.t on its apprentices in not paying them during the recent dispute. There were apprentices ut Town·_ville who went to their work every day and carried out every obligation on their !oart, but they were told to go away, and have not boon recompensed since.

Mr. KERR: Who is responsible for that?,

Mr. BRUCE: The Railway Department. :Mr. KERR: Your Governm<ent.

Mr. BRUCE: \Vhen we are dealing with apprenticeship and the matter of the rc,tric­lion of apprentices by employers it is a ,.ood time to emphasise the fact that obliga­tions should be carried out whether on lhe­part of a private or a public employer. TI.c questwn of apprenticeship is one which vii:aUv affects Queensland and Australia .as a wLol,;. Everyone is beginning to realise that the question of primary production is being over­done, and, so far as Australia is concerned,. her salvation will be in secondary industties.

0PPOSITIOX MEoiBERS : Hear, lw.u !

Mr. BRUCE: Any matter that affects secondary industries Tequires keon attention, and one of those factors is the Apprenticeship "\.et.

Mr. ROBERTS (East 'I'oowoomba): I 'lav; li-tened to the hon. member for Kennerlv with some attention, and I am plcac -:d that the hon. member admitted the value of much that we have advocated on this side of the Hou'c. I recognise that, unfortunat<'ly, the amendments proposed to be made in the Act \\·ill not give any comfort or satisfacc:on to the mothers and fathers of children v.'ho are unable to get a start in life. The last person I interviewed in Toowoomba on 1\londav before lea;;illg for Brisbane \Vas ~ 'vurna~1 who. unfortunately, was in the posilion 0£ lmYing to receive State assistance. One of her children had bc.cn recently cut off, and

Jh. Rc-betts.]

324 Apprenticeship Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

~another 'vas taken a way son1c time pre­viously at the age of fifteen years. She said, ''I have six children. Could you b'et a job for my girl of about fifteen y.earo rA ago?" I told her that, unfortunately, tlw opportunity did not offer. It has been admitted by the hon. member for Grc~;ory that he has no objection to skilled artisa.ns coming to this State.

Mr. PoLLOCK: Of a certain type.

Mr. ROBERTS: I am using that becau.;c it shows there is a dearth of skilled arti;aus. 'l'hore is a. great body of unemployed in thi; State, and it behoves us, as the hon. member for Oxley said, to try to readjust the position.

The hon. member for Kcnnody taikcd .about Tory Governrnents aud the lack Df opportunities for apprenticeship in i>ast tin1es; but when Tory Goycrnxncnts were iu power in this State thoro was nothing to prevent our yottths from beiug apprenticed. There are many skilled artisaus in this Statn who served their a.pprentico,,hip then, and who have turned out creditable artisans. L; there not some responsibility incurred l>y the men who take the .appreutices: The 1Iinister talks about not letting a man ha V<'

too many boys as apprentiooB; but an employer knows that he incurs an obligation to teach the trade to every apprentice ho takes. If he can satisfy the Apprenticeship Committee that he can teach a boy a trade properly, he should be at liberty tc> take him as an apprentice.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD IxDUSTRY: Is he not?

Mr. ROBERTS: No. The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD INDUSTRY:

Point out one who has boon re£u.scd.

Mr. ROBERTS: We have dcfinit,,Jv to rea.lise that there is something that is hinder­ing .apprenticeship in many of the mdustries of Queensland~that is, the high rJte of allowance laid down by the Board of 'lrade and Arbitration. The Board fixes the rate, but, unfortunately, no attention is patd to the value of the work which the ,-on<.!> iB going to give to his employer. 'fh8 only thing considered by the Board of 'l'ratk and Arbitration is that a youth shall get a cer­tain amount to live on. The employJr is nut going to take on an apprentice unless there is some advantage on his side as \'·ell ns on the lad's side. Why should he be asked to carry all the burden? The par ems a'C« not looking for the high wage allowecl by th•: Board of Trade and Arbitration. They ~ll'e more interested in giving their bo:t ·' the opportunity to become useful artisans in the days ahead when they themselves arc gone.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Do you think the wages are too high 'I

. Mr. ROBERTS: I want to say quite definitely that the employer has to consider what is the value of the work he is going to get before the boy becomes u skilled trades­man, and what it is going to cost him to give the necessary tuition. I am not entering into the question of the wages; I am only dealing with the question of whether the employer is able to pay the wages demanded for an apprentice, or whether it pays him better, >tS he has to make his business pay, to put on skilled artisans rather than have the trouble of the tuition.

'l'he Minister mentioned this morning the number of apprentices placed in Brisbane,

[M1·. Eoberts.

and then he passed on to the other towns of the State, and in Ipswich he said there were 113, in Rockhampton 133, and in 'l'oowoomba 112. If that be so, I would like to know whether the Minister has done a fair thing by the boys of Ipswich. They talk about private employers not taking apprentices; Yet in Ipswich, where the skilled artis~ns i'1u1nbcr almost as Inany as there are in the rcot of the State, they cannot find oppor­tunities for more than 113 bo~. s. Why, we luwo 112 in Toowoomba, a.nd thoro arc 133 in Hockhampton!

The SECRETA!lY FOR LABOl:ll AND I:-:DUSTRY: The railway workshops do not come into this scheme.

Mr. ROBERTS: The ::'.Jinister was asked if they did, and he said they did.

'fhe SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : They do not come under this scheme at all.

Mr. ROBERTS : I hope we shall be able to get the information before we got through the Committee stage. I am not zoing to proceed at any further length, because I re:llise that the Bill will not give us any relief so far as the great body of our lads is concerned.

Mr. FERRICKS (South Br;.,/wne): A good deal has been said during this debat-e about the United States of America, and no doubt we shall hear more about that country at a later stage. l-Ion. members, hovYcvcr, _do not say anything about the fact that m the United States of America 72,000 men hav" just gone back to work after b<;ing_ on strik•• for six months. We see a lot m the papo:; about every little strike here, but we <h not hear anything about that and the lo;.< of pav involved. \Vhen it comes to appren­ticeship and child-labour conditions in the United States of America, and it is suggostol that thoro they are ahead of nny systc'Il in Queensland or any of the other States, I think it should be remembered that membc·,·; on this side of the Chamber put on record last session or on some OC(::tsion when an amendment of the original Act w::ts going through that no less a person than Senat0r Pearoe, who was co~pmissioned to inquire on behalf of the Commonwealth Govornnwnt, showed that the condition of affai·rs in 1h•! United States of America was far worse in regard to child labour than it evnr was in Australia, bad as it was before the. advent of Labour Governments. In comparmg 'ho apprenticeship system in operation in the United States of America with those oporat· ing in the States of the Commonwealth, I pre­fer to let them be judged by the results of their operations. During the early years of the war, when people were talking about industrial proficiency and the Yalue of output by artisans, a test was made at the request, I think, of the Defence· Department of thn Commonwealth Government. A team of Aus­tralian artisans was sent to the United f'htes of America for special work-ongi,w"r'. turners, and fitters--and the United States of America authorities were invite-d to make a comparison as to the respective merits anrl the ability of the Australian as compun•d with American teams of workers. The reply received by the Commonwealth Defence Department was that for special work the American was the better, but for all-r )tmd proficiency the Australian artisan could lose the others. That brings me to the p<.int raised by hon. membe-rs on the other side, who speak about the disadvantages whicn

A ppren!iceship Act [5 00'.rOBER.] Amendment Bill. 385

men who learn in small in:stitutions, ir; the country, whether they be offices or wm··<Snops. suffer as against those in the large ce:1tres of population.

[3 p.m.] :My observations have taught me that a

tradesman who has ltarncd his t.rade in a comparatively small shop is a better all­round tradesman than another man wh'? has learned his trade or calling in ~ larger ~nsb­tution for the reason that he Is more lrable to be kept at standardised wo~·k in the lare,er institution. Perhaps there rs some JU~trfi­cation for the contention that the restrictions of the scheme operate harshly in many cases, and that quite a number of_ people. cannot attain their desires in havmg then: boys apprentiC'·'d to trades. In common with ot}"er: hon. members, representabons on that macter have been made to mo continually. I find, when you ask th£J parent .what trade he wQuld like his boy apprenticed to, that .m the majority of cases the ansyvcr 1s, '· I would like him to be apprenbccd to the electrical trade."

1:\Ir. ROBERTS: That is only natural.

:Ylr. FERRICKS: The noct preference is for the u1giHeoring trade and, followmg that motor mechanism. There does not scorn to 1~0 to be a verv great inclinrrtion on the part of parents to encourage their sons to become apprenticed to such sound and useful trades as carpontcring, plumbing, and so forth. There seems to be a tendency to regard the tra.dPs I first mentioned as being on a. socially higher scale th_an the ones _m the second category. That rs a great mis­take, but it appears to me t~at what . 1s taking place in motor transpoTt In At~straha: and very la.rcroh· in queensland, has mduced a large numi~er "of youths to incline to motor mechanism. I am afraid that in a few years, notwithstanding that it has. been contended that motor transport wrll be increased, those who are now being appren­ticed as motor mechanics will not be in any better position than the average tradesman of the United States of America. The aver­age tradesman in Australia is much superior to the a vera go tradesman of America. They engage in highly specialioed :vork here, whereas, owmg to standardisation, . m Americ'l the average tradesman Is nothmg more than a skilled labourer. The youth apprenticed as a motor me_chanie to-cl a~ ~as to con1bine motor n1cchan1sm \Vlth dnv1ng a car and everv chaffeur will soon have to be a 'motor mechanic to qualify for a posi­tion to drive a motor car. :Motor mechanism will not continue as a distinct trade, and the same training and study which arc necessary in onginPering, iron-turning, ~nd. so. forth, will not be necessary. That mclmatwn on the part of the parent is very wrong.

Several hon. members on the other side of the House have contended that oppor­tunities are not now available for the free apprenticing of children; and they say th":t tho restrictions should be almost wholly, rf not altogether, abolished. They would wel­come the opportunity for all boys to bo apprenticed to trades. Many parents tal~e that view, too. I haYe always taken up thrs positi;n in explaining the case to the parent who places such views before me: Has he Bver considered the alternative result which would ensue if there were no restrictions regarding the number of apprentices to be indentured? Does it need more than a moment's consideration to see that the

1927-2 B

undoubted possibility of .a free ~nd unlimited svstem of apprenticesh1p of noys Is that, ,;hen those boys finished therr mdontures, there will be no work for thorn as 1ourney­meu and they will have to go out mto the \vid~ world aS labourers, just the same a~ the average man in the United States? \Vhy will there be no work for them as JOurney­nwn • Simply because a remoyo l of the restrictions in the svsten1 of 1nckntunng apprentices will find the e~1ployer ~illing up his ·yorkshon with apprentices to h1s utmost lirnit which- will be a, case of co!1iparatlve]~~ chca{> labour a.nd will operate io ihu detl;l­ment of the journeyman who has completed his term. To ucoe a colloqmahsm, the journeyman 'vill have to '' go bnsh"; yet that man will be a. fully-qualified tradesman after baYing served his years of apprentice­ship.

Hon. 1nen1bcrs oppo::.ito con1plain of uncrn­ploym,'nt in 1 his State under a Labour Uov0rnrncnt. \;\lhen we remember that, on the statcmcllt of one of their own confreros in the Federal _Parliarn.-,nt-a rnan ·v. ho was connected with the Commonwealth Immigra­tion Department for some tirne-I refer to I1Ir. Uullett-only 200 of the 40,000 rmmr­granl s who arrived in Australia last year 'lcitlou on the land, how can members of the Opposition support i_nnnig!ation and at th; Rain<~ tirno corn plain of tnwrnployment. Wh .re have the 3G,800 who did not settle on the land gone to?

:\ir. HY:-;Es: They have di;placecl .Australians.

:\Ir. FERRICKS · Exactly; and this io whore I C'stablish the conn,,ction between that and the question before the House .. 1 have stated that the journeyman who wrll have his work taken from lum by the emplovmcnt of an unlimited number of approi!tices will be going through the same experience as many of those rncn who con1e to Australia and arc given preference of employment for perhaps ~our or six months, at the end of wlnch t1me they are sup­planted by more recent arriYah Just as the Journeymen trad<-smen wrll be supplanted by the apprentices, so those newcomers to Aus­tralia who receive preference on therr arrival will be displaced to make room for later immigrants.

Hon. members opposite speak about the reotrictions in apprenticing boys because of the a wards of the Board of Trade and Arbitration pro,-iding a certain ratio of apprentices to journeymen employed; but do these hon. members remember the con­ditions not only in Queensland but through­out the Commonwealth before the establish­ment of tribunals which dealt with the apprenticeship question? . There. was no limit to the number of apprentices, wrth the result that in the sewing and dressmakmg trades, for example, girls were apprenticed for a period of six months without payment; at the end of the first six months they were given 2s. 6d. a week, wh!ch rate would be increased at six-monthly mtervals until the wooklv wage amounted to 10s. or 12s. 6d. Then," when that stage had boon reached, the employee was displaced to. make room for a girl coming on at nothmg a v.:e!"k· Hon. members know that such a cond1t10n of affair, existed before the advent of Arbitration Courts and Boards of Trade and Arbitration. Why, then, do they now turn round and blame awards for the actions of employers in contending that they do not

Mr. JJ'erricks.]

386 Apprenticesh,ip Act, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.]

desire apprentices on account of the high wages which are paid to juniors? Can hon. n1ernbors opposite support, condone, or approve of the action of those employers who are dealing not with apprentices but with junior employees, who, when they reach the ago of eighteen, nineteen, or twenty years, arc displaced and other juniors taken on temporarily? When one examines the apprenticeship system as at present operating, one cannot but regret that there is not greater scope for the indenturing of lads to trades, mther than the employment of juniors in the circumstances I have stated. If it is put to him fairly and he judges it without prejudice and without bias, he must admit that the present system, with all its defects and with whatever limitations it may have, is infinitely superior to the old system, which operated with no restrictions and no limitations. In those good old dap there were harmQ.nious relations between the employer and emr}loyee b"cause the employee dared not raise his head in protest or in opposition to the wishes and desires of his employer. Those were the days when employers outraged every principle in regard to in.creusing the wages of juniors; and the:/ are the very same people who to-day say that the apprenticeship systen1 has restrictions operating against a number of those who have apprentices. I am one of thoee who receive complaints about the limitations, restric­tions, and operations of the prc-ent system; but I believe it is infinitely better than the old system, undet' which the apprentice, on thB completion of his indenture and becom­ing a journey1nan, was cast out into the world and supplanted by another apprentice. Neither do I agree wholly with the conten­tion that a man who goes through a period of five, six, or even seven years learning a trade, and finds that there is no work in his tra·de or profession, or that he has been supplanted by another man, should not be allowed to carry on when he has an opportunity of getting back to his trade again without the lapse of an undue period of time. The di--inclination to ondea.-our to get back to his trade will be on the increase, and his efficiency will suffer in ac--,ordance with the length of time hD is away from his trade, because in these days oi rapid changes and improyornents in n1achinery ~1nd so forth the man who is away from his trade for five, six, or seven years finds it very difficult to do what is called in politics a "come~back." He becomes, as it \Vere, out of touch with the improvements and advances which have been made during the period he has been a >vay from his trade, consequently he is not as efficient a tradesman as when he first learned his trade, because then he \\<L;

up to date. I have every confidence in ilw training of tradc~,mcn in Australia. and I think in thD industrial institutions rnat haY•o turned out such tradesmen as cngin~on. fitters, iron-turncn,, boilern1akcrs, and others, Australia can hold its own with any part of the world, despite all that may be said about America and the great industrial a,dvantagcs operating th-ere in regard to th~..~ training of their tradesmen.

Mr. KERR (Enoggera): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed. Rc,,umption of debate made an Order o+"

the DQy for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at 3.15 p.m.

[Mr. Perrichs.

Questions.