Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 1923

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

[ASSK\IDL Y.J Acts Amendm•ut Bill.

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER, 1923.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. Bertram, Jlarcc) took the chair at 3.30 p.m.

RAIL\YX\'S ACT X.\IEC\D~IEC\T BILL.

I:o;ITLHIO::>.

The SEC'llETAHY FOR RAIL\YAYS (Hon. J. Larcombc, I!:c"ppc/): I beg to moye-

,, That the Hous<: will, at its next sitting, rcso!Yc itself into a Cmnmitteo of the \Yholc to consider of the desirable­Hcss of iutroducing a Dill to amend the Railways Act of 1914. in certain par­ticulars·:,,

Question put and passed.

WEIGHTS A?\D ::VIEASL'RES ACTS A:ME?\D~IEC\T BILL.

INITIATI0:-1 I:-! CO}DrlTTEE.

(Jfr. [[irwan, Brisbane, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC \VORKS (Ilon. \Y. Forg·an Smith, Jfackay): I beg i.J lllOY('-

,, That it is desirable that a Bill be i11troduccd to amend ihe \\'eights and .!\Icasurcs Arts, 1906 to 1912 .. iu certain particular;;;.''

ThiB is on!:.· a small amending Bill, which \HoYidc, for the inclu~ion within the an1bit ~f the ~-\.et of Yarious \Ycighing and pnrnving n~achinc~ thnt are not now coYt'l'Cd bv the principal Act. For iustanct' the vetroll;UlllpS that OlH' ,;;cc:-:; outside garage , \Yhl'i'E' lllOtor­<::Hh ·•.re supplied \Yith petrol. \Yill be one of the types of machinc-3 t!Ltt it is proposed to bring within the scope of thf' _.:\et. It i~ int,,udcd to bring \Yithin the scope of the Act any lHt..'nsuring 1nachine- of an:-~ de:-:;cription. It also giycs po\Yer~ if thought dc:-:;irablc, to inc:rease the ·scale of fees. At tho prC'"C'nt linH! proYi~ion is n11·do Hlld~'r thr• Act \\·hereby foes ca.n be reduced, but there is no proYision \\·hereby they may be incrcaoc,xl. The Act aLia provides that fees for inspection sha.ll not be payable where a machine has not been passed by the impcctor. I clo not consider that to be a desirable state of affairs, consequently. it is provided in the Bill that fees shall be 1myable whore an inspec-

[Mr. Taylor.

tion 1 a kep; place, irrespec1 i \'L' of \Yhctlrc·r the n"!aehinc is passed or not, in th(' snrnc \\'ay as fee., are payable under tlw Inspc'ction of ~iachiner.; and Scaffolding Act. That i., one o£ the most important features of the new nill. At the' pi'P:"L'llt tinH' \\'{' lJ<t\~(' a- lllllnbt'l' of --,,Pights and n1casures inspectors. and. in addition. in certain local goycrnn1ent areas there is an inspection by the local anthoriti<>s' inspecior. Those inspectors an' only able to collect fees whore tho machine has bce11 pas,,cd; where a machine is found to be faulty the inspectors cannot collect any foe. Con­~equently, it may be arg·ncd that there may be an incentive to pa~s an otherwise faulty machine.

J\Ir. :VIOORE: Tlw inspc'ctor must make tho nHtchino correct?

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC WORKS: 'Where the inspector can make adjustments that is done, or he may giYe to the owner of the machine instructions as to \Yhat requires to be done.

Mr. MooRE: Then the owner has to pay a fee'?

The SECRE'I'ARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Y cs, I consider that to be eminently fair. These are the chief proyisions of the Bill.

Mr. KIKG (LorJnn) : I listened Yor:v atten­tively to the Secretary for Public \\'arks, and I was hoping that he would outline some pro­posal in the Bill whereby dishonest traders might be punished. \Ve know that under C'xisting conditions, if weights and 1neasurcs are incorrect, the trader can be punished; but the particular class of trader I haYe in view is the man who is unfair!•: competing with lcgilimate traders by not giYing proper weight. It is not always possible for one to sec tho goods as they are weighed out. For instance, the dishonest tra·dc;· can get the better of his competitor, who may be living a few doors from him, by selling, say, 12 lb. of an article at a lesser price than his oppo­nent, merely by givi11g the purchaser~ say, lO!lb.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC .WORKS: There is power under the law now to prose."ute in such a case.

:\Jr. KE\G : There is only power of pro­secution by ihc purchaser, and I would liko to sec some means deYised by ,,·hich po,ver cun be given under this Bill whereby such dishonest traders can be punished.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC \\'ORKS: I pre­_,unlc you arc rE:>fcrring to r-ontaincr3- con­taining 12 oz. instead of 16 oz. The law Bow ])i'OYides that these containers n1ust eon­ta in the full \Ycight.

:VIr. KT:\'G: The man I particularly \vish tn {!('t at i-~ not thC> 1nan \rho :--ell~ •ll artic1o · which on the face cf it weigh~ a ( an1ount: but the man 1rho \Yf'ighs out an article IYhich is under \Yeight. Take tho ca~c of a n1an who is ::-:.upJ10scd to sdl 12 of L'a, but as a matter of fact only 10~ lb.

The SECRETAllY FOR PUBLIC \\'OHKS: Thoro is a remedy in those caccs.

::Vlr. Kii\G: There is onh· a romcdv if you havo a. witness there to c~tch him. You haYe no remedy at all if you once take awav the article and tako it h~mc, and find it i's short weight. You take it back and com­plain. but you have absolutely no remedy ag·ainst the trader; you ha Ye only the trader's 1Yord aga.inst your OIYn~ because

[11 SEPTEl\lBLR. J Ac/8 Annndment B:/1. !J43

lnlllLdiatc:._•l\· tlh' tJ·ach,..._· .-;_tY •· Thi~ lw::. hc)Pn t 1npcrcd \~·i1l··. You h:l\.~' r~ll<L'P ;-:ume out.'' \roa \Yattt a witncs.~ on the s;1ot to catch

The Sr.c:mT.\RY FOH Pcnuc \Yon:\:s: So vou \Ycnt!d if all in~pcctnr \Ya-:;. th'~'l'L'. ·

;\Ir. KI:'\G: You cannot alwan c:o about \\ ith an insp0~ tor ln yonr pock('t.

The SECllET.\RY FOR l'cm.lc \YanK· "Cllllcr yonr prOl)()::-al wo \Yould hnYc to lllCH_•a:o:c

t~Jc nu1nber of inspector

~.lr. 1\:l?\G: Exactlv. It i, a matter of .(·OnlnlOn l·:nowlr-dgc tiuu. thC'rc Hl't' certain t1aden; in Brisbane carrying on this busi­nee.e. It is not fair competition, and they m;ght to be dealt with if possible.

::Wr. FRY (l\urifpu): A measure of this nJturc should recei,·o the support of every hon. nwmbcr. \Yltcn one buys a gallon of p<'lrol he expects to get that quantity for his money, and although. so far as I know. Lfl01'0 has. been no inE-tancP "\Yhere short n1rasurP:ncnt has bC'en given in this connec­tion. neYerihclP~s it i::; 1vise to rnake some r~ru,-i-:;lon \vhcrebv tho nwchin0s can he in'Jwcted. awl. if they arc found to be wrong. j)Q\VC'l' gin.•n to haYf' then1 adjwstcd. ~n far as feP-; ore ronc0rned, I prC';unH~ thif; dause is really ]lllt in the Bill to enable cxtl'a fees to be charged in Yarlous localities acrording to distanrP. So far as lYe under­<'tancl the Hill at ·present. it shonJ.cl receive sn;1port.

Ho:~:. vY. H. BAR:'\ES Wul/mlw): The :\.Jinister in 6ubmitting thi:-3 1110tion stated that tho principal Act does not c:ive permis­. ~ion to raise the fees.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \\~aRKS: It onlv giyes pern1ission to reduce thc1n. ~

Ho:~:. W. I-I. BAH:'\ES: The :\1inistcr might have told us wh0t!wr it w·as the inten· Tiou of thl· GO\·ernmcnt to raise the fees straight .cway. inc,pecti,·e of the rates that '-lrc no\v chargeable.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLlC \Yorms: Oh, ne: the whole matter >vill be im·estigated.

Hox. W. H. BAR:'\ES: I kno\v what the inYcBtigations by the GoYernn1cnt are where li 10ney is concerned. I know the inyestiga­

CJlways leads one \Yay, and that one 1vay looking after moro '· La\Ybce::-." The SECRETARY FOR l'cBLIC \\" ORKS : :\lore

than ::\Iinisters look after that.

Hox. \V. H. 13AR:'\E::,: I am quit:\ suro the ~11ni.3ter in charge is CYCI' looking after that. hoth in hi-.; public and in l1is pri\·atc ea pacity.

The SEOP.ET.\HY FOH Pt'BLlC \YonKc: So lnug as it is ho11c~i it i.~ all rl1 . .dn.

Hox. W. H. BAR:\""ES: Lec;iii:llat,·i . I do not ''"i~h to say illegitilnatcl,'i-. lr sccnH r.J 1110 that C\fel'V n1oYe 1naJc hY this Go­YC'rillllC'lll. is in ~that djrection.

4

Thf''- saY

nil roads Jrad in one dircctiou~, and is no doubt tltat all roads politically

!c•nd 1u one dirf'ction, so far a-.; the GoYCl'Il­

ll!t'nt are concerrH\d~that is. to scrPw ju~t a little more out of the UD')lli'""''-

}1r. MOORS (r1ubign1f): ·ender the pre­sent "Weights and i\-Ioasures Act t!Jere are certain districts constituted bv the Gm-ern­ment and subject to the authority of tho \Yeights and Measures Board. Is this Bill ';Oing to apply to the whole of Queensland or only to these particular di~tricB "(

The SECRET.\HY FOH PFBLIC \YOilKE: The Ad applies to the \Yhok of QueeJk]and at JH'l'SC'llt.

:\h. ::\IUOHE: ThPre are a great mun.bcr of di,tricle at the l'rpc01Jt time which am not ~ubject to the "\Yeights a11d ~lea.sures _.:\et.

The SECHET.nn: FOH PUBLIC \VORKS: They can be rtHtde snbjcC't b\· Order in Council at any litllt'.

].lr. :\H lORE: Is it intended by this Bill to bring the whole of Queensland within ttw G<"O)le of tlw Act. w that all the weights anJ nleasurc•s in the ,-arious districts shall come under the jurisdiction of the \Yeights and J,Ieasures Board?

The SECRET.\RY FOil PCBLIC \\"ORKS: Not neressarily, unlc3s it appears de~il·a.ble to J.o so. At the present time in certain areas the local authorities control the matter, and, \Yherc it is c!Psirable, the Minister may appoint an inspector.

Mr. :\IOORE: In certain areas the local authorities control the weights and mea­sures; but there is a large nu1nber of districts in which there is no control whatever. \Yhat I a.m trying to get at is whether thio latte-r class of district is to be brought under the Act and more inspectors appointed.

The SECRETARY FOil PUBLIC \YORKS: Do you think thctt \\"ould be desirable?

1\lr. JHOORE: I do not know • .-hether it rests cntirelv with the local authorities in tlw yarious ~listricts. If there are dishonest traders in their districte, they want inspec­tion. If the Bill brings traders within the scope of the Act, it should be made applic­able to the whole of the Stale .

The SECilETARY FOR I'CBLIC \VOHKS: It provides for that.

Mr. ::\JOORE: But onlv in certain di:;­lricts when they arc gazetted. Does it mean that in a district a case of fraud has to Le broug·ht forward before it is brought under the Act. :'\ ot far from the main centres of population you have ono district under the operation of the \Veights and ;}leasurPs Act, and there is an inspector and fees are cha.rged, while in another district alongside there is no inspection.

The SECilETAHY FOR PUBLIC \\"OHKS: \\"here there is no inspection by the Gon:rnmcnt it is the duty of the local authorit,· ill that area to administer the Act. •

::\lr. i\IOORE: But there is no mandatory! power for the loca.l authority to carry out the \V eights am] ::\Ieasures Act or to bring tht disttict under the operation of the Act.

Tire SECRET.\lW FOR PUBLIC \\"ORKS: \Yhcro tlw G(J\-enunent do not appDint district in'Jll'Ctors it is the dLttv of the local aLtthorities to appoint tlH:m" under the terms of the Act.

:I\Ir. ;'.100RE : Except in largo colltres of population. the local authorities do not han: any weighr.~ anJ nH•a;.,urf's ir;spection at all, 011d there arc also certain large districts which haye no inspection whateyer. \Yill this Bill bring all districts under the Act so that thoro shall be inspection and peopl~ wtll be protected'

The SECilETARY FOil PUBLIC WORKS: It doe,; not altel' the principal Act in that respect. The Minister administering the Act may include additional areas whe-re he thinb it desira blc to do so.

liir. Moore.]

9H L'ppcr Bumett and Callidr [ASSK\IBL Y.] Land :S'ettlemwt Bill.

::\Ir. :YIOOHE: L:nder the present Act it sccrns to n1e that there is a greater part 0f Queensland outside the scope of the Act than there is within it. It seem·· to me im·idious that in contiguous di-strich one district

___ should be under tiw jurisdiction of a weights ~1ncr n1C'asures inspec1"or while in a district alongside traders are absolutely free to en ny on as they like.

Question put and pa.sscd.

The House resumed.

The CHAIR~IAK reported tha.t rhc Co:nmittee had con1f' to a resolution.

The resolution was agreed to.

FIRST READD!G.

The SECHETA.HY FOR PL'BLIC \YOHKS (Hon. \Y. Forgan Smith, Jlackuy) presented the Bill. and mm·ed-

" 'I'hat the Bill be now read a first tin1e."

Question put and passed.

Tlw ,ccond reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Da:> for to-morrow.

l Pl'EH B\.:R:'\ETT A~D CALLIDE LA:\D SETTLE:\1E:'\T BILL.

CmnnTTEE. (Jir. Il.intan, IJri!:!bunr, in t!tr rh :ir.)

Cla.u~·~-5 l to 3, both incln.-.iYC', lllt and p< sscd.

Clau.;;e 4--"' rr'rour· sclct·tion''-

. ;\Ir. :\IUO/l.E Uul!ifill':l.: I mo\-c the inser-t 1cn, after tr1e wot·d ·· a . 111 hnc 52. pll.Jt: 2. of the folio\\ ing wont:-

.. (·t) Agricnltnral holnc:-tcath:~;

(ljl Agricultural farm~.~·

The ( lan"c thr·n IYill rPrH1-

.. Crow-::1 laud ·within the nren. \\h:>n opeucd for ':f'lcction undl'l' th·· prinr·ip~tl Act. shall be opPnccl fOl' gron[' selection a~-

(a) ),gricultnral homesteads:

(1,) Agricultural farms:

(r) Perpetual !rase selections; or

(!/) Grazing homesteads.''

In the opinion of hon. members on this side of the Con11niLtee, this dausc open·, a. very v. ide question affecting the whok extc•nt of land settlement, since in onr opinion Jhat is bonnd up in the question of tenure. I know Jhat the matter has been discussed on manv occasions, but that does not alter the fac·t t l~at nHu~y peC?pl( \Yh0 arc anxious HJ take up land believe 1n one sort of tenure. and we think that it is essential that they should be able to get land cmdcr !he tenure thcv want rnther than under the tenure the \_;ovcrn­nle:nt Yl ant 10 forcl' 1111011 thcn1, if \VC a.re to have a -successful Eeith'n1ent schenw. For the illformation of the ~Minister I want to quote f\{)me figures con1paring the land scttle1ncnt ,,'l:·hich has t.akt..•n place in Qnef'n~lc111d n~tder 1 he ]1cqwtual l€'a··e and freehold teClures rcepectin•ly-

" Conlp.arison of the rtnantit-.,~ of agri­cultural Crown land selected ciuring the fi\'e ye~rs. 1910 to 1914 (inclu-iye\, and

[Jfr. Moore.

the qna11ti1~- ::;:L'lcctcd during- the iin~ ycar5 following the abolition of the freehold telltn·c. as frcnn 1~t ,Jarnu.lt'y, 1917 :-

"' --

~~ ~~~ " ; .,; "" ": ]~ te .. ;:..

-~ ~~~ ~·'E ~

' 5..8 ~ :.;'":""'

~~ :::..: t:E t. ·/; 0 ~·

- ------ ----- ----

Arres. J .. eres. ' Acrrs. Acres. 1;)10 G60.D7:3 ti60 11,~08,170 1,975,803

1911 t:~.), 782 16,660 1,020,61;) 1, 773,007

101~ (i;),_),QD8 10,~~6 628,61± 1,280,938

l D1:3 1,007,712"

19 1.! 1,253,48:3 ------

Tohlls ,148 7,380,94:3 -----

1917 J48,!Jl7

1018 45(),0~±

1()10 I on~).-18:3 :>Ll,064 1,1:?.3,:1-1:7

1020 .J\lll,5.Jfl ..!:3:-i,:ZOG D25,8.J.5

l!J~l 41!l.S86 ZiO,DS:J 6\10,871

Totals

Dccre;l ·.c' undrr P{ llt'tlltll L!_'<l05C

'l~·mu·e l.1CO,.J2li !~,G/~,:310 '),R·)~,7:~n

The n:o:-:;t J"f'lll<ll'kable feature 1~ the dc­crv<.t~c· 111 tl~l' rea t-Jken up a~ prickly-ppar ,clc \Ylwn 1\'C find thai Jhero is such

t:. (no bcgi1~s to look around f•·r 1·e; :-:oE. aPc.l the reu~on is that the eln~s ot people IYho used to con10 hero and take ll]l 1nnd nndC'r tbc forrner tenure-which tl1 ·Y \H re 1LSt..·d to and in which tlwv bclicv< ~ ·re Jlu. llO\Y coming to (~ucPnslaDd. Tht~ l~111d 1~ now lc·fr to be taken up by a de­cu•a ,•d p<)1Ht1aritnt in Queensland. Only the (\tlH'l" Eight I ]Jointed out lhe advantage to a ~·ttler ~.d1o tc•ok np land under a tenure \\}l~>reln·. ,1ftcr a Cf'rtain nun1ber of vcars. th<d la'nd brcanic l1is o\nl a'3 P.gainSt the. l'onditiuns oi pNpctual lnochold, where the npsPt price is highC'r, IYhcrc he is subjectc(1 to p·~'riodical rcappraisenlPnta and has to con­tinw to pay for that land for all time. It mmr he recognised that the people on the land haYe a. hard enough row to hoe. If the conditions on the land are made more difficult. how can you expect people to comP to this State and take up land? Th<' ,,·ish of the GoYernment should bo not eo r{lnch fm· rnorc rcYcnue as to have a practical sdtkmcnt on the land. If we can get th<' population here to carry on agricultural sclPction.s and ~.nFlll grazing areas success­fully. then "''' shall ha,·e a larger populatioll to carry the debt \Yilh which Queensland is r:cw saddled. The idc>e of thr• Government :-.hc;tdd be to n1akc the tenure attrartivf~ :-·o as to indutl' people to come here. The pro­sent tenure is probable· much m.ore lucrativ., ::;a far as the Go>:ern1ncnt are concerned. bpcau~c in the future it n1a v bring in rrroater reYenue to them Unde1~ the old btenure 1\·ith the upset prices of those days, men ha.ve beon able to earn· out successful settle­ment. To-day the upsCt price is very much greater. I admit that H per cent. on the

C,;pe~ JJ,u·nett cu1tl Callide lll SEPTDIBEH.j Lund Stttl, ment Bill.

uq.•ital YaluP look~ a, \·Pry attractiYc proposi­tion. ~ix ur :-..CYC'll :,·cars ago land could be tnkcu up a.:'\ agr1cnltural selections at an ;n-erage Jlric-e of al·om £1 h. to £1 5-;. per <ll'l'C. whereas the 1111:-:-.Ct lJl'iCo of the SUl11B

lnnd to-da~- rnng:Ps fron1 £4 to £6 11er acre. Thl' ach-itntagc of l1aYing to pay only 1~ per c~·nt. on thr>. capital Yalne under the present t(_·J•UIT is tlwreforc entirely elin1inatcd.

It mean.-; that ihe people "·ho take up that land. in~tcad of paying; principal anJ. in­t Pl'C":it ~o a3 to make hon1c~ of their O\Yl1, arc only paying a J'cnt. and at the cnJ of thirty year-; they han· dill to pay rent. and they

arc then in a \Yorse po~ition than [4 p.m.J if tlwy took np the land under

the lH1m·e under which thev \Yant to take it up. I desire to put in a tabulated 1:'1 atcnl:._"llt "Yith n_•fn;·cr:cc to the two cla-~.c,;es of t;•nure, so that the people can see exactly the difference bet\Yeen the two tenures for !and of tlH) ~~an1c character and in the san1e di•nict, "nd thPv can see at a glance which tC'nure offers the greater pro~pccts of get­ting :"3llctc:c-sful :3ettlen1ent-

~~GRic n.Tt:RAL F 'Rlr 8ELEcnox-TwENTY YEARS.

Arrcs.; Ilistric·t. Pari:-;lL ' Pnrchn~iug1 Price. Prier. I

--·-~---.. ----------------~----

I £ d. vcr annm11.l s. ].)0

' ~anc1ugo X('nmgna t:d. l (j .~

:>:H XaJlanu:o Xcnm}un (i ~d. I ' s

1.}~ Xanango Taro1nco 4\<l. I) 1.) I)

:2<)! i ~anan~o Xeumgna 61d. 2 ()

:3:20 Tomr·oomha }Jilt on ,td. 0 1~ (j

-------·- ------

I ha yL_. takPn tlu~ ~an1c dn.ss of lancl as llt'al' a..:; pos.~ible along-4 ·idc of these other blocks "'~Yhich an· open to selection to-day under the otlH."r dass of h'nure.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICrLT17RE: Eight­pence an acre i, one-fortieth part of th0

:\lr. :\IUORE: Ye-<-

PERPETL\L LEASE.

Acres. :1

District. PariBh. Purchasing' rpsct PricP. Price.

---~------·----·---per anl~~~----

s. d. ' £ s. d, 129 Snnango Xcnmgna 1 ~~ 4 0 0

\l6 Xanango Xeumg:na 0~ ;3 10 0

130 :Xanango ~eun1gna 0 OJ9U 2 1;) 0

1;)0 Xanango Tar01neo 0 81\J 2 ,) 0

~):20 Toowooml1a :IIilton 0 ~~ 2 1 4

·when you work it out at the end of thirty years, ~he people who take up the land to-day will pay on an average from 25 per cent. to 30 p<'l' cent. more in annual rent than under the agricultural farm selections, and are still in the same position as when they started, eYen if thev haYe had no reappraisements, whereas the selector under the agricultural farm selection at the end of thirtv vears has no 1nore pavnlE>nts to n1ake and. {n ~addition) he owns the freehold. It must be obYious to anybody \Ylw wants to see successful settle-

1923-3 X

ll1C'llt that the agTicultural fann ~L·lection tenure i.s the 1nu~t attractiYc and the one ''"hich gin_~s tho 1nan tho greatest opportunity for .success.

:\11-. \Y COOPER: Does that apply W Jin1bour'?

:\Ir. :\IOORE: That is a repurchased estate, '\Yhich co1ne~ u11{_ler a different cla:3s of settle­Incnt altogether. In rho case of u. repur­cha.-3-ecl cdato the GnYCl'lllnent haYo to fix a y,tlue \Yhic-h ,,-ill pay interest on the purchase tnone,',. The iutcresr is l1'3Ually 4 per cent. The mere fact of opening land to perpetual lea;:'e selc;...·tion and putting a value of £3 an r,':l'(" upon it does not say that land is n1ore ;-aluable ,dwn you onlc put the H per cent. on the Yalnaticn. If it "as not for the fact that the Go;;enlnlcnt put this attractive low rate of interest upon it, the people •::onlcl not look at it. In determining the ,-alue the lot. tl authorities alwavs used to tako the Gove:rnn1ent valuatioll as a, basis. l: nder the present conditions per­petual lce.sehold and freehold are valued in the >ame nwtmer. \Yhen you find that a selection is not takell up owing to the un~ ntnac!iYo conditious, \Yhen good freehnld land is open to selection at £1 ls. Sd. and £1 6s. Stl., al!d good selections practically ldong~ic1e rhc1n arc open to~day at the upEet Ya!ue of £4 m £5, it will be seen where the <:nlOln;_dy co1ncs in as regards tho valuation. \Ye-' cculnot take an;; notice of these valua­tion~ to-day "·hen G'xing the value for local authorit;- puqwoPS. It would be- absurd to charge a 1nan. becau;;e he took up .a. per­petual lca::'c St•kction at an upset prire oi £4 or £5. four en· fiyc tinH'S as 1nuch as the 1nan along::'icle of hin1 who took up a selec6on a.:: an ng1·ict1lnua.l fann or a homesten.l1 ~<-'lertion.

The :'E.RET.\RY FOR PrBLIC L.\XDS: I sa,-· land solrl the other dav for about £EOO an acre '\\·hich "·a-:; ratNl o~1ly at about £2.

:\fr. :\IOORE: I think the hon. gentleman is talking nbont smnc of tho:~e lands they put up n t thl' .:::ca.;;.idc resorts, "·here the a.no1naly in rc~rard TO the ;;aluation '\vas so great that the s~·'fcll' of Yaluation has had to be altered. Tho · :\linister kno1n that under the old "-,tem -;ome of that la111l \Yould be valued at t~Y0nty or thirty tin1es in exre<;;5 of the price of land in close proximity under a different tenure.

The bECRETARY FOR PrBLlC LAxDS: \Yhv is it that a snbnrbqn bloek rated at £50 a quarter e.cre is sold for £200?

:\Ir_ :\IOORE: I do not know that that is the case. :\1y experience of township allot­ments in the countrv districts is that a valuation of perhaps· £50 is placed upon them and they cannot be wld for £5.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LAXDS : \\'here do you get the ,-aluation from?

:\Ir. :\100RE: It is purely an arbitrary one. You haYe to put on a ;-a]nation which ,,-ill bring in enough rates for the required purpose.

The s~cBEHBY FOR PcBLlC LAXDS : Do van know th:tt in :'\e\\· Z2aland they can purchase Lmd on the ;-alua!ion put upon it by the owner?

:\Ir. \IOORE: Yes: and the GoYcrument ba;-e the option here• of purchasing the land nt tbc Yaluation put upon it by the D\\Tll?l',

but theY haYc not tnkPll vc·rv n1t1Ch arh-antage 0f thAt. power. E-o fnr as I~ can St.~C. I ,,·ant t.j point m_:t thnr if yon iucl'r•asc the Yalua­tion and f!l'0 goit~g t') ch<irgc 1~ per cent. on

JJ r 111 oore.]

~)f n;:-)nt•:· th:lt a man lll()l't; tlt:tll WHl.•r tfl\' •)ld {"{)fl­

lh~' lJl'~'~('lll ( ;OV('!'Il-

11 :1111_ 10 ;-'('(' :;L'l t>J!J('J:t

$.!Ull(' tlli"01li.!..'h C'OLlll­

haYt' fo.ZlUd rlut 1-he <11'0 tho:::;c' 1rho tock lll)

u:~cler th._ o:d agri("ultnrul

The SEC'HET\RY FOll PDJI.!C LA:<l lt ha Lcpn Jno:::;t. ::illC'CL'' ful to the• pc'uplc \Ylw havt -Inortgagcs. O\Tl" il;e land.

:\lr. :\IOORE: I fonnJ ihat the mod '"~-.._··~.3ful Ill('ll IH'l'C' those \vho ::::.i ariPd ~Yithout

an~ assistance fron! the Go,-crnn C1lt. anJ t~ll~~ 110\Y a~I~ _that thci1· SOl!S should b€' givcu ::.undRJ' conditions to those nnc1Pr \Yhich the: s: a1 tcd. If this \Y<ls arranged, I urn ,;;;1..n.'P there would_ Le no difficulty in gt'iting ]acd 'teltlcment m ~uccnsland. ::Yian of these young ITH'D do not want the Uov:~rnn1ent to r:c~vanco large snn".s of rr1onev. and du not ask to ;tart ofi with a raihnly nlong•,idt' of their land. They merely ',,·ant the old sYetc·m of agricultural hon1estcJJ ~election and~ I think if the ::Ylini,tor woultl g-o into' tlw que;tior; of land settlement in thost' a.rcas in vvhich vgricultueal hontt.'~teach have be('!1 taken np, he would find that i.hc vast majorit,· of the settlements are ·,tdl hl'lrl bv the •Jria·inal holders. ' D

The SECRETARY FOH PCBLIC LA::<:ns: \\'here I \Yas brought up the squatter owns C\~('r,~ homestead to-day. ·

Mr. MUORE: It is quite pc,csiblc that in rc•storal districts in the \Yestern couuirv the class of settle1ncnt that I mn advotcdi~If!" i~ not suitable, and therefore ha5 not boon suc­cessful. The Minister has only lo go to the Lockyer-he need not go even so far as Too­woomba-to npprecjate ho1v satisfactory settlement has been by the agricultural home­f.lead selector. The conditions gave tlwm an cpportunity. The so11s of those scleci ors do :not wa.nt tho GonJrnmc•nt io advance them great sun1B of money, and I krto\v of scmc StLt!c-n1cnts as far as 15 and 20 n1iles awav fl'Dm a railway vvhich hav-e been elltirclv su(:. c ossful. These men desire a tenure that will enable them to make a success of thci>· YCn­hn:e by ha.nl \York a.nd experience. I an1 qune sure thc~v have the experience, and can 111~kc a succes3fnl ecttlcmont \Vithout any ;1C_I,·ance of DlOlH'Y fl'o!n the Sta1 e. rj he:.· KltO\Y cxacrly \\·hut ihcy want--

:\Ir. \\'.COOPER: They vv-ill alwavs ha ye io l1ClTO\V 1110I1C}'. ~

Mr. :\JOORE: I think that th0 hon. r1unber for Rose\Yood 1nust knov"· ovpn in hi-; own Ji~triet ma.nv ea:3cs \rhcrt' settlers hav-e opcrat<'tl successfilll·. under the 0ld con­rlitious ancl han can-ed out comfortable Lames for themseiYcs.

:\lr. \V. COOPER: I do not think so. Thev pay from 7 per cent. to 8 per cent. intnes't un the mow'y they have had to bonow.

:\Ir. MOORE: In manv of ihc di;tricts I hc:.vc in 1nind sf'le-ciors had no necessit.v to borrow money ~o instal large quantitie's of e'"pcnsivc machmory; they >taried with an ~~xe and a ~oe. I want the sr~n1c opportuni­ties to be grven to-da,\. l\1y object is that the settlers should have a tenure that they really want. and that. land settlement shall be made "" attractive as .possibll' for them. Thoro arc> a greai". number of boys in Quoon,lancl who want land under what they consider fav-ourable conditions, but thev do not want to borrow heavily and ha v~ that weight

[Mr. Moo1·e.

Land ,..;,.'t ttlun: ut Lti!!.

()\~(' 1S n~G~'{'

it t11r11 11 1::- a

pi'inclple fdr ln ne! ::..t>ttknwnt. Jf. nu the LH'rpctual lea 'it' s.\ ·tt'tll i:-;

t·aeiiYe. ilH'rt he h:t:-- (Jld- tu 011 that tcnnr·~' for. tlw

The SECRETARY FOH PtBLJC r .... \:..-n:-.:.: Yon iYnnt to gi,·e seHl0rs an indu cnlPnt to 3"ll tlrcir land fiyo ;;pars latc•r a.t a c<JII::iiLlerablc [WOflt. , .

i\lr. l\lOOHE: Yen· lot·. have dotw that. rJ ht~ settle:c puts in a gOod deal of hn.rd \York: at'cl. aftc,· he get·· his deede, he i., c·ntitlcd to sell the l:rnd. ·

rrho SECRETARY liQR PcBLlC LAXDti: In IllHllV ea ·CS they put in very little work. "

l\lr. }IOOHE: The,- had conditions tn ful­fil and they fulfilled 'them.

The SECRETARY FOR l'LBLIC L.\xm;: The storl'l;:cepers got hold of the land bc"a tbe tltc're 1ras a lack of railway cornmunicario11.

:!\Ir. :\IOORE 1 I ask tho hon. gentleman tc take a district--not nee£ <sarih· the best­,tnd giYe settlers an opportunity' to take up L1.nd under the conditions I ~uggc;;;L I arn confident he will find that land will be rublwd fer settlement more than land offerctl clsc­v,-ht~rc under perpetual lea-so ronditious. Th ·re is a good dea.l of lantl in Queensland tu-dav suitable for the idea-l do not say that the large areas of plain country '' lwr;, 1nnch initial machinery is neccssarv is suit­able, but there is a good deal of scrub land on which a man can go in, fell the scrub ancl plant corn, and later carry on dairying, l'·hit~h is eminentlv ~uitable for the small man vv-ithout capital. ,

1\h. DEACON (C:unninylwm): I think the advant,;gcs of perpetual leaschokl ha.vc r·lways been ovenatcd by the GoYernmcnt. I do not look upon that tenure as of any ltdv antage at all to the settler. It is simply <.l rnca.ns of taking n1orc and n1orc out of l1in1 as time goes on-of taking all the value 'hat he )mts into the bnd and putting that v-alue iulo reYcnnc·. After all~ the labour is hi~ 0'\'Il.

The SECRETARY FOR l' CBLIC LAXDS : \Yho lmilds ihc railways'!

1\11-. DEACO:\ : The settler in the long run. He pays the biggest amount of the

.cost in freights. It is his labour that IS

going to pay for the whole lot. I£ you take avv-a:; the settler, where would the railwa_v:s be? \\'here vv-otlld the revenue be? It rs not the ,]ightest use building a raihv-ay if you ha n• not got the settlers Urere to pay for it. The argument of the GoYern­ment in favour of perpetual lease is that some settlers took up the land and held it until the 11djoining settlers had improved their land and then eold at a profiL Because some settlers got a profit that way, the Government want to rob the whole of the settlers. The main object of the perpetual lease tenure is to take from the settlers the capital ya]ue of their land and give it to the Crown. For the first fifteen years the peroetual lease tenure is of advantage to the ·selector, but after that the value

Upper Buraett and Callide [ll SEPTE' l3Ef{.~ 047

lJy the Lo nd Court ;s the full thcu laud, uud thE! L;oYCl'lllllE'llT

f11l: iutt:n•:.;;t the capital YalUl'. ~t'l rlenH~l~t 111

an increase in ah-rays n1u:;-"u

and :::urel\­countr, an(l

lw i' entitJ,•d to the Yalu . A Jnan \Yho QOC's into thc:;;.u

pia cL) aud takes uv a ,_:-::clccti.on n1ust ~Olll( H~\Yard. It is nut f<:1ir that. lH'

.--hculd [.!O the:rc and pnt up -~Yith hardshill::3 llO rC\Yatd in the shapo of the

Yalnt_' ;..!,'ln:n 1o the land bv his L~"ndcr thC perp0tnal lease f'y.~tCn1 iu

run t hr scttll'r na vs four or five v.::tlnc of his sclccJ_tic;lL In a pe1·iod

of forty- vcur~, tlw selector will have easily paici tllr0e tirnc.s the origillctl value of his hnd.

The SECRET.\RY FOR P l'BLJC L.\~DS : \Yhen son rmt a f.'hare farn1er 011 ::-our land you do not gi yo him the freeholcl.

~Ir. DEACOX: Certainly not-he does not <expect it. The GoYcrnn1ent are going to i rea t the ~8l0ctors worse than the share farntcr i~ trcatcJ now. The share farmer !:-'"OC~ on to a place with all the in1proyements thl'rc. and he gob the full Yalue of his la tour.

The SECRETARY FOR :MI~ES: The Crown is the Lest landlord.

:\Ir. DEACOX: The Crown may be the best landlord, but \\ hy stick to the whole of the increased value? under the old system the Crown \Yas a good landlord. Take the present homestead proYisions of the Land ~'~.et. L'nder that tenure a man took up land at. say. £1 per acre, and he had twenty ;year,; in which to pa:·, and he paid no iLtcrcst. At the end of the tw·emv years he got the title deeds, and he was fr~e: Under the perpetual lease 1 enure his payments aro only commencing at the end of that term. The Gm·ernment are afraid of somebodv making a. profit: but under the perpetu~l lease tenure·, land jobbing goes on just the ;::.nn1e ; perpetual leases are being sold, and grazing leases are being sold on the increased capital value. I do not know ,_.],ether some hon. members behind the GoYC'rinncnt are really .~o stupid as to thjnk that the mere effect of calling it a perpetual lease is going to stop land jobbing. If the lease is \Yorth anything on the market, land jobbing will go on just the same.

The ScCRET.\RY FOR Pr:BLIC LAXDS: If that is 1ho c~se. where is the hardship 1

:\Ir. DEACOX: After the selector has done all the >York and created a value, the Crown takes the lot under the perpetual lPase tenure, and does not relieve the selector in any way from making roads; it does not relieve the selector in anv wa ·.­from paying railway freight. The 'crown takes just as much out of him in taxes ant! also roceiYes full rent for the land. The Government policy is only landlordism~ trymg to make as much as they can out of the man who takes up land. Their onlv excuse for that is that somebodv cls<> makes something out of his 'hare-farmers. It is jealousy because somebody else makes a profit which they think should go into the consoli­dated revenue. If a settler has not sufficient mor.e,· to take up a freehold, and he desires io take advantage of the low terms offered under the perpetual leasehold tenure for,

rlH~ fir~t fiftePn '\\ 11Y :::nould he not ha Ye thu OlJliuu ·: £-le PEt~tlcd to the Yrtln~~ of hi" ]hncl, if he creates it. :\o other couutrY tl't'tds the ~elector <h habbilY ns '\Yl' do in ·(~ucensLnd. In C·u:ada they iiYe hint 160 ncrcs free. and they gjyc hint a frl'chold 1 it le.

Thr~ .:)r.:CRET:\RY .FOE PcBLIC L_\xus: ThP compnnlcs g-et the lnGd then1

• anJ the land ccttlonll'nt. They " do" the

1 '-· 1 r!lflr too.

C\J r. DEACOX: They gin; the farmer the frcelwicl title of the laud abwlntch free. 'tlld llw.~T charge llin1 lo\YCr frejghts than he js chargecl in Quecnslaud. He is treated better in c\·cn- >vav. Tlwre is not the slightest donLt abont that. The Secretar•· for Pl!blic Louds cannot stand up and quote the freight, charged on the Canadian railways to dis, ,tn'oYe n1y statcn1ent.

The SECRETARY FOR Pr:BLJC LAXDS : There aro no {;ovcrnrnent rail-wav:-.; at all 111

Canada; they are all private" railways.

Mr. DEACON: It does not matter what lhev are so far as the settler is coucerned. If l]o gets his land free and is charged lower freights than he pays anywhere else, then he• must be better oif. This Bill gives the Minister large powers over the settlers, and you should give them some means of escap­i11g frorr1 his clutches some da.v. The Minister h>ts power to tell them what they are to do for all time. In fortv or fifty n;ars thcv will still be under the" Ministe1:. and he ":ill still be able to toll them what they must do.

The SECRETARY FOil PuBLIC LA~DS: A good many selectors would like to change from private institutions to the Minister to-morrow if they got the chance. All of them would.

i\Ir. 2\'oTT: Tt does not say thev would t!Gt gu olll of the frying-pan into tho'fn·e

The SECRETAHY FOil l'cBLIC LA~DS: Thev arc· not in the frying-pan; they are in th~~ fire.

Mr. DEACOX: The :vJ:inister cannot give any instances of it. \Vhy is the Minister so anxious to sa"' that thB farmers are all in the clutches of the banks? vVhy cannot he stick to the truth conceming settlement? Some of the farmers arc in difficulties. Some of them have had their difficulties forced nn thPnl Ll.\ bad goyernn1cnt. If the country had been better goynne.cl in the past. mnw of them would not be in the position they are 1n now. It n1ay haYG been that prcYions Governments treated them badly, but cer­iaillly this one has been no improvement so far as the settler is concerned. The settler should have some opportunity of getting out of the power of the Minister, and he should ila ve an opportunity to get the freehold of his land in time. The main attraction in farming is that the farmer is his own "boss." He does not want to take orders from anyone. He can make his living in any way he chooses. and. if he wants to get off the farm for a day, he can get off. He is free 'and independent, and why not let him have the same freedom as he now has?

There is no . harm at all in giving the settler the o.ptwn of conversion into free­hold if he so desires, and the Government would giYe that option if thev really con,

siderecl the interests of land [4.30 p.m.] settlement. The Minister de-

sires to see this settlement schen1e a success; his o'vn reputation is

JJir. Deacon.}

8±8 [ASSE:JIBLY.j Lund Settlemen; fl,/1.

hound ttt' ir1 it. lt i'!- n neiY departure in the dirc·ction c,i nd '-f'ttll'l1lent in Aus-tralia. lie i~ rhc ::..nccess of the ~ch(nll' ~imp~~- bL•L·an.;;L' of a fad ior a forn1 of tt-·~1Lll',~ \YhiL-h ha-. nc,·cr LH•cn ~ncc(•.:;;e.~nl t•l:3:C\Yh(L·c. It ''"a~ triL·LL in ::\e1Y Zealand t\Yenty nr 1hiuy yea1~ ago . .and the people who rook np la1Hl there uuder perpetual ka~c .ndd not lw ~ati-::.ftt•d until the Go­,-l'l'llllH'llt gnYl' thetn tlH• opponunity of con­ycrtino; tlH•ir holdin~": into frccholJ tenure.

::'llr. \\'. COOPER illtl'l'jceted.

::'llr. IlEA CO:\: The,~ can do the 5amc thin~· nr.. ll'l' thi•. Th0 hem. lllt'Inbcr for Ho~Cv.·ood. of conr~c. has a ·· do\Yn" on eYerv settler \Yh') i>S Inaking a vrofit. lie Yrants tO see the1n workinu· hard ull thPi1· Jiycs. lie doe:::. nor w~~nt to- :;;ee any man IYho goes on a ~cru\1 3clection 1.tetting it for his OIYn. Let hin1 a..:k the f~11:-~11C'r._. ~,Yho we>nt on scrub sdc .:tion.;: in bi::: own L'!c·doratc if thcv \Yould likr~ to be ~)aying tlH' full capital ,:alue in rent on tho'Sc ~dcvtion~ undL·r perpetual ]C'ast..' tt•nure. I-Ie cannot ":a\- that all tho £an11" in hi~ t•lr•( t<nate are 1nOngaged. One hon. llH'nlbor on the Gon::rntncnt side, whon1 I look upon a.-. tht• :"oanc~t of thf' lot. is th0 hon. uleltlbcr for Ro\Ytn. ~Latu.dner.) That hon. IlH Jllbl'l' sni-l that he~ \Yoldd giYe the st'tilcr :1is latH~ fret•. It would llnY the State \Yell to 2iYL' th·· --ctrh'r ~-rec·land. The hon. n~r·n1ber'-fnr :Jlircht'll .;:nid would ! . .!'iY0 the ~cttler t:lt' frl'C' ll--l' (1£ 1and: 'hut tht~ GoYern.-:.wnt do lhlr to uiyc the free 11:3(· of it. and ,y1Jen 1r lH'cn7ue Yaluable, and 1:10 i 1HlJ1 .. n-e:ll('llt" are ail t1-Wl'l', thev wili rh,, ~t.:·ttkt' n'utal on the £nil ct~.pit<ll I llUlll' tilut the GoYl'rnnwnt "-ill iaY<IlU'<-l1'1Y cnn~ider t1Jr' an1C'nllnll'llf 'Ih[' .'e~·2ul ~·~·ttlcr-3 i:1 Quec·n.;;]ancl an• had ti~·;1t their OIYll IYHY. -at tlh- start. Th~--- fara~er in t:J' di~trict~ \\~here the· lallcl i..:. ~imi!ar t(l thi~ arc•:1-scrub ~clct·tion.•~,Yill tlwY \Ynnld not be wnrl~ thev haYe clone tT\e\ ~t:n·t ~·:irh r-llP per-petual lhl"l~ tl'nurc frdl relltal Ynhw fo_.: it ;_:,r the end. t!u:Jt the aJnrnd-nleEt· i..;. ''"e11 \YC'rr1n- rJi thL' coa..:i'lcratioa of the ~lini~tc•r. ,

At ~.:7 p.m .. ::'llr. Dc..;.c;Ti'>:

of Tcinr,orary { n1an i!l the c-hair.

1.;, .1. rIll' of the panel relie\·ccl the Chair-

::'lir. :\OTT 1.'11 ''" 111: I think the ::'llin~ ister IYonld he· well .~dvised if he acce'lJtcd the pro;1o&ecl amendment. It i' to the adYantag:e of the State that this settlement should be wcc-•-.,ful. an'll if the o·rantino- of freehold tenur,; ~~Yill help to mak.; it suc~ess­ful I think that thP Gcwernment would be foolish nd to consider the adoption of that tc·nure. Thi, is a Yerc~ big: scheme, and a large an1ou1n of public n1onev is to be expended upon ic EYerythi;Jg pos6ible should be done to mduce settler' to go on to this land with tlw will to make a success oi it. and the ~linistcr should be prepared to allow thPm to rake it up either under perpetual lcas0 nr freehold renm·e. I know that the nnlicY of the GoYernnwnt is opposed to £rc·eh.o1d H'nnre. hut for the -sako o£ this particular -,~."-hen1e I hope the~- IYill be rea':'-onable and a.·do·-rt eYt'l'Y n1ean'3 to makP 1r a :;.ucct'~' It hi.~ :-,ecn ·"ald that an F.nQ:ll~hnH-n':;. 1(;: l1i~ ca,..:.tle. and a farmer In ~xh f .. rn1 will be hi3 0',\-!"1. ',-r: :Lot got Ycry ·

[.Mr. Deacon.

much hOjl0 of c•du<:ntiug tlw LaLotll' party to lcok at the matter in thi3 1i~·ht at all.

}fr. \\' COOPEH: You will h'n'~c to usu better arg uin()nt:::.

:\Jr. :\OTT: I ha ye a ff'Y, ligurcB shm,~ing the a~ricultural land in Qucl'nda11d IYhich \Y<:h ;.;;ele.:·ted under the frceholcl and per­pt tual lPasE:-hold h'nures cltning the titne an oprjon \Y<L" C'XCr('isabk-

1\lll 101" 101:3 101!

Tolitl

Frc·hoLl Tit I<'. Perpetual L"tl>c.

.-\Ct't'~. 7:3J,i3 ~ tl33.006 ;)-10,070 .)ij/ 4:92

Acres . 16,660 10,:2:20 l\),887 1",001

50.764

think that th••,<c Jig·uros a Ill ply illu sua tu "hcther indi\·idnals prefer frceholJ <Jl' per­petual lea''~'· If perpetual leasehold was ~·oing to be the gTeat succe6s \Yhich the LicYernn1ent hoiJocl ~it \\"onld Le, 1Yh:'-- IYas there not a tnsh at the beginning to get that forn1 Df to1urc in prC'ference to the old freel1old :::.v2-teln ., Durino· t'Jlc yrqrs the­opti<Jn IYrrs in- o;.Jcration t'fwrc IYa~ no rush at all for the lc'usehold tc•nuro. On the con~ trarY. the froohold tenure \Yas rnshcd YYhile tc1e ·perpetual lea'ohold tenure was aYoided. Th<2 }Iini::-tc•r has ~aiel that it i:3 not desir­a blc that a settler. after putting in flyc YE:·al·s' \York on a farm, ;.hould be ulJle to dis­jJo>c of the farm i; be '0 .Je,i res. I do not :-:.cc wh~T an.\- man, after taking up ]and an_d dl·,-l'loping it. ~honld not b(: ahle to sell It if he can ~·c( a fair pric:--- fr;l' it. If l~e can ~l'll the fal'In to ar ·)thcr lH'r~on, is It not giYing tht1 ach-anta.,_,e ro r:w 1uan \Yho bl.Iyo:-> ir of g-ctt ing a read~ -1nac~e fann fr<Jnl IYhzch he e-tll obtain a l'('tlll'll rraig·ht cn;a}T '? Tho nw1~ IYho s.f'lls t!tc farm cai1 al:-o takt: up a no1 hPr block.

Had the Rl'patriation C'ommittl'l' acloptc<l a ~Y~t 0111 of hnying out n1cn who ha cl a_lread~ L'S.t~tblishecl fanns on a IYOrking ba.s1s and . ..:.cttling soldier:" upon thcn1. \Ye \YOuld hayo­found'that rnanv of those >Ooldier' would haYe n;ade a success "on those rt-adv-macle or scnli­rcach~made farm5. The men V.·ho "~ere bought oat ~vould han' move-cl to other districts, and "~ith the experience of pioneering which they ],ad gained already YYotdd haYC carnd ~ut or made other farms for themse]ycs, \Yhrch thev mig·ht haYo sold out in their turn. :!\lany noYi~comcrs to Queensland will go on to the Burnett lands. After· fi ye or six years they ma v hear about other district,, or ,.ee othe1· districts suitable for industries in which they 1nay prefer to eno-ao-e and with their experi­ence they may thi;k' they ''ould like to be able to sell out and go there. \Yhy should they not haye the right of selling out and o·oing· into such districts? A man may be ~~ the dairying industry, and after he gets information about other districts, he may like to change to_ a lucerne-gro1Yh1g district, and I think it would be a particularly good thing for Queensland if he could feel free to follow his own preferences. The hon. membe1· for Barcoo made reference to the fact that in the area we arc dealing with the rain falls over a period of about four months, and he said that th~ settlers •vould be well advised if. during the four ·or fiye months. they pre­pared fo-dder for 5torage to keep them going during the seYen or eight dry month5. That (·prtaiHl;v 0lllf1Ih Pxtra e:xpenditlH't' en haY­sheds and silos, for in.~taucc~ and jt i~ only

["pper Bumett and Callide L ll SEP J'DIBEH.]

lHtiural that a 1nan setting out to deYclop hi .... fann and requiring those e"'\.tnL 'inlproYe­m~nt' "·hich the hon. member for Barcoo rightl.v sa:rs he >Yill be well ach-ised to makP, ,,-ill r~quirc to f(d money from <omewherc to build them. I hold that, >vith the free­hol•J tenure, he has a much gTeater oppor­tnnih of bonowing money for that purpose than under the )X'rpetual leasehold tenure. Tlu'-o thing, should be .-ery cm·dully and thoroughly considered, e.-en though they may not be in accord >Yith the policy of the Gm·crmncnt. To my mind, the thing of para­mount importance is that this setth•ment scheme should lw.-c the opportunity of being suc<·c>·dnl. Here I >Yould like to quote a little incident that came under mv notice in re,pect to a settlement which, I am sorry to say, has been a ghastly failure-the Coo­minva soldier settlement. That, of course. j;;. uncler perpetual lease.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LAXDS: It was freehold before the Government g·ot it.

:\Ir. ::'\OTT: That may be so. but some of those soldiers <uggested. that, ·if thev could get a freehold, it might be an induce;:,wnt to them to hang on, and that they would be a little more satisfied. I do not mind saying here that I told them that o.-erv extra acre of land of that class would be. not an asset, but a lialoilitv to them. Xevertheh''"-and l cL\ not C'are ":hcrf' you go, you will not find a llody of n1cn work harder and at greater dis­adYantage than those men-some of them told me that fl'0ehold would be au extra incentive to them. I do not say all of them held that op1mon. I did not dis.cnss it with rill of them, but with one or two. :\Ianv of them W(•re 11C\\TOillcrs~a great nurnUcr .0£ InlpPrial men \YCnt on to the Coon1i11\ a lanJs-and a great manv of the sc•ttlers on the Bunwtt area. \Yill ·also be 110\Ycomers, and I just qnote that to shov. that iho rn.en working .on the land prefer freehold to perpetual leasplwld.

I know this i:-' a harning qnc,~tion, hut I an1 o: tlw opi11ion that the Go.-pnmJent prefer perpetual lease l1e<:ause it puts them in the Al po3ition of being rackrent0r~. If there i-:. a1n ~nccPs;:;fnl Sf'ttletncnt on an~v 1and, the GuYf'rnn~cnt han~ th_e_ right of putting up the upset pnce en· of ratstng the rent ou reassess.­mc'llt. It i,, a case of playiDg with a doublc­headccl penn:- : the~· >vin either way. \Yherc­eYer there is succc..;;;sf ul sett lt>tneni. vou can lJCl your life that this particular Gon~rnment \Yi[ not hr ,-;}o\'1. in putting their asf'cssor:5 on the job am! ecncling up the rents.

The SECREHRY FOR Pl"BLIC' L.\XDS: \Vas that >d1~· ~-ou Wc'nt to .East ~\frica:

:\lr. ::'\OTT: I hltd n'ry little• to go to East Africa with.

The f:;ECRETARY 1''0 tl l'l"BLIC' L.\X 1>~ : Those IYho >Yent to thP K<'nya Colorn- made it her~.

1Ir. :\'OTT: Some of them ,may ha Ye, and I know son1c who are prcpareU to bring money to Queensland; but thev have been .clriYPll out-not bocausP the ~l'P')Ources of Queensland dicl not justify them in staying. becaus0 thP re:,onrce"' of Queensland arc equal to thOf'l' of an,"·T ot}H•r conntry--

Tlw RECHE'L\RY FOR PUBLIC L\XDS: ])o vou ... :::.ny that the GoYerntnent drove 1Ia~TC1'~ ont?

Mr. :'\OTT: But becaw•e the1· had lost all faith in getting either just{cc or fair ncatment at the hands of the Go.-crnment.

The :"EcHET.\HY FOR PcBLIC' LAXD:' : That did no, happen to :\la~·ers. lie had not a "Gob"

ngu~ and he Wl'nt c:nn1y ·wiih

Mr. :'\OTT: Somc'tltil1c: has lwcn said this aftcl'noon about thf' old Ealf-a-cro\Yll an acre land. So far a' I can see. that cla'·' of scttle­l11E'llt has bccu the n1ost ~ucces3ful in putting people on the best agTicultnral scrubs that '"'' ha Ye dc.-elope<l in~ Queensland up to the present. IIundred.-:. of thonsa11cls. n1ore acres ar-..: just as good~ Lut. unfortunately. the~· are not being taken up as they were under the old conditions. You can g:o to Hclidon and othc1· places and sec the resnlts of this cheap land settlernent. I an1 quite in accord "-ith thme pCl'sons who say that the first thing is tu g:e.t th(• JWO)Jle to take up the land and \York on thP land: and if you can get then1 t,• do that b' offering: them cheap land. b~· all tncans ·do so. If you (an get people to come here from other countries b~· letting them know that the~· can get land at a eh cap rate, "·ith the oppmtuni r~- to de.-elop any indnstrv then.· choose-a11d \Ye are fortunate cnougll. in Queensland in h~n~ing districts Yaricd enough to cater for any class of agri­cu:turist-then by all means do so. I hope that the rltinister ,,-ill be .-en· carc'ful in regard to tlH· ~nece~:-:. of th{;'3. ~l'111£'nlPDt :-:.dwrne. and that ht- ·will ;::{'l' hi."' way to P_e<'Pllt the ~ll1H'ndnll'I1t.

The SECRETARY FOR l'l'BLIC LA:'>iDS (lion. \\'. 1IcCormack. Cairnd: l Rm not a.ltogcthPr sure whether this antcndnlC'llt is in onlPr. Tht' principles of the Bill >Yere accepted without diYision on the second read­ing. and onp of the main principles of the Bill is pn)lPtual leasehold temu·c-.

:\h. FRY: \Ye olJj<'Cted to that.

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LA.:\DS: Y-ou had your opportunity to yote again:-st it. Once thP princijJles of a Bill are confirmed by the llouse---

~Ir. I~EHH: It i~ not a pl'ineiple; it is only a syt:tcnL

The SECRETARY FOR l'CBL lC LAXDS: The hon. gentlcn1an has hi~ own idea~ about principlL''', and I atn not prPpared tu argue them with him. Howeyer, I do not intend to take tlw poiut that 1 ha.-e raiocd. Hon. mc1nbers opposite haYc a1·gtH'd the que:stion of freehold ycrsus leasehold oYer and oyer aga1n. If they >Yieh to do that. that is their lnlf'incss. The 111atter \\"as un issue at the clcetio11s. llun. gentlcn1Cll oppo:'.ite nutde it a Yery important plank of their platform, and thPv were defeated. The will of the people i~ that the pnpetual leasehold system f'ha ll stand. I ant not going to enter into a long dis,ertation on the question of freehold H'rsns leaoehold. Hon. members who ha.-e ::.,vokcn on the n1atter haYe Hl'Yer giYf'll a .. ny al h~11tion at all to the great i·,:'.UP tnyoh-ed. One great issue inYolYcd i:-:; in regard to pl·ac­tical politic,,. It is not a qnt>stiou of the Anccc::,,;; nf a. H~lector 011 a pit>cc of land in Queensland. It 1~ recognisPd throughout the world to-day that the laml should be the property of the ,,-hole of the people or of a great proportion of the peo}11c. bPcause it j., the basis of \\"ealth. nnd, once ;,>Ju give awa\· th(~ land. you g1ye awaY the basis of 'YPalth. ,

rlh. KEL~O: Did 0·ou say all OYer the >Yorld ·:

The SECHETARY FOR I'l-BLIC LA:\'DS: If the leading thinkers of the >nwld to·da~· had their opportunity in some of the' older' countric'3, 1 hey "Tould ~:et a \Y.ay fron1 1nany of the c·nrscs that cxi."-t jn tlwsc countrit:::~­conditions caused bY the ownership Df the ]and being in the h~lnd~ uf n fL•w people.

Hon. W JfcCormack.]

950 [_lSSK\IBLY.] Land Settlement Bill.

:\lr. I~ELSO: You ha Ye ouly rc'ad one side of the snbject.

Tl1c SECRETARY FOR FCBLlC L_\:\DS: I ltnvc not. I haYt~ read qnitc as 1nnrh as the holl. !!cntlcutan. :\lv 1niud is not \Ya.rpcd b jntt'rP~ts and perccniagc.::, like that of the hon. gentle,nan.

Hon. \Y. II. B.\R:\£8: Don't get nasty.

The SECRETARY FOR l'FBLIC LAI\DS: lion. lllt"'llibcrs oppositl' ·want to kno\v how wuc-h interest YYill be rl'tnrned. The hon. nH'InLer fo1· Stanlcv talk(ld about our inheritance and the 'right of the l3ritisher to o\vll his own pif'cc of land.

Hon. \V. H. B.\R:\ES: Do not you and your rollcagucs practise that?

The SECRETAHY FOR PCBLIC LA:\DS: \Yhn t arc the facts? l-ImY manv men in Eng-lrrnd own any land? The whole of the land in England is mYned by •10 per cent. of the people. Quite a large amount of the land in England is not held by Englishmen at all. This idea that the Englishman should own his own land and about his home being his castle is not true. Fullv 90 per cent. of the people in England and -Scotland own no land at all, and ne1·er did.

}Jr. :\OTT: Give them a chance.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA:\DS: The hon. gentleman is now taking a different stand.

}lr. DEACOX: Thev ha Ye never had a chance to own land there.

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLW LA::\DS: Because of this system the Opposition are nOYY trying to impose upon us. The Scots are being- hunted off the land in Scotland by the hndlord;;-by the very landlords that hon. members opposite seek to fasten ·round our necks for the rest of our existence.

}lr. KERB: :\o.

The SECRETAHY FOR FCBLW LA:\DS: There is no doLtbt but that the theory of freehold has its root in the financial institu­tions, and not in the settlement of land at all.

}Jr. "KELSO: \Ylwre did you get that idea fron1 ~

Tht' SECRETAH.Y FOR VL"BLIU L.-\:\DS: The fina.ucial institutions have alwaYs. stood for the frel'lwld tenure of land because that is their basis. of sccuritv, because thev know that it is the origin or' basis of wealth. and th0~ \Yant to grt their cla1Ys on the land bccaus0 it is t h(, Lt -,t socuritv for the Illoney ach-anccd. "

}lr. Knso: It is the wry last thing they want.

The SECH.ETAH.Y FOR l'l'BLIC LA:\DS: It i' not. lt is a well-knoYnl thing· tl1at m all indn~trics fina1~~e gets prac'trcally a strangle-hold on all mdustries.

}lr. KEI.:30: You know that the YcrY last thing <-t bank \"\ants to trrke po~sc.ssion~ of i~ propert.1 ?

The SECRET .-\RY FOR PCBLJC L_-\:\DS: ri1u).y IYish to get freehold as sccuritv so as to make the poor unfortunate laJ1downer their s]aye for life. That i~ what happens. l know caJtlemcu to-dav ,dw tell me that there is no chance of tl1e banks foreclo.-ing because they are doing the Yvork that tho banks should do. The banks haYc control

[!Ion. W. Mc('onnack.

through thf' 1)0\\'C'r of linancc, and the\- hasc ('ontrol of rho:;;.e mPnt .. ~ l.msinc~~-, anl1 take iribntc. I aut not arguing again~t financiai institution~- I kuo\Y that tlwir Lu-;iucss is 10 n1ake n10ll('Y·

}Ir. Kn;:o: .\nd thc'y arP Jwlpful. too.

The SECRET). RY FOR l'CBLil' LA::\DS: But r ha r i::-; uo re<:u.;on '"h \- Pal'liarncnt shoulcl Yit'\Y en'l' thing throngh 'liuancial e~, t'S.

}fl·. Dncox: ¥on are doing it.

The SECRETAH.Y FOR Pt'BLlC L\:\DS: \Y c a re de,·i::-;ing a ~Yden1 IYhich 1Yill reserYe to the p<1 oplc ~the O\Yncr:-bip of the land. That i> the Labour party"s platfortn, and we arc preparocl to sink or fi1Yin1 on tlntt i~-.:.ut'•. Hon. rnentber.~ opposite saY tlwr it i.') onlv a matter of tinH~ \Yhcn there '"ill be sufli~·icnt l<'aseholders who Yl'ill ,-ate ag-nim-.t that ~Vf'tPn1 in fayour of free­hold, a-nd that they ·,l'ill do that by returning hon. nleinbers opposite to power and turning the Gm-ernment out. It is the business of the Opposition to g-et those supporters.

::\lr. KELSO: The will of the people should )HeY ail.

The SECRETAH.Y FOH. PCBLIC LA:\DS: There is no doubt that the State has the right to the unearned increment on the land.

.:\:Ir. G. I'. BAR:\ES: They pay it through taxation.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC LA:\DS: :\o. This is a far more equitable method than taxation.

}fr. KELSO: \Yho owns the uuearned incren1ent?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:\DS: The public.

::VIr. DEACO~: The people who own the la.nd.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LA::\DS: The public. and not the selector. own the mwarned increment. That is wl1at I am. tL·ying- to presenc. The rent is fixed by the Land Court. YYhich takes into consideration the \:alue of the land or the productivity of the land to the person who is on it.

:\Ir. l{:ELSO: You arc talking about agri­cultural land.

The I'ECRE'L\RY FOH l'LcBLIC L.-\.:\DS: I am talking of all land. The hon. gentle­man want:-; one SYSlcn1 of land tenure for· ngrif'nltural pu-r::;uhs and another systcn1 in the cities. That cannot obtain. Hon. mem­ber·,, O[l)losite must eith(•r bdicye in the leaoe­hold or the freehold tenurl'. Freehold has its origin in financial in~tiiutions~ and not 111 the HlCcc~....; of the settl('l' at all. L0t rue take rn;: O\Yn f'XlJPricncc. I \vas 1_·earccl on a. sdecrion at a place called \Yayerley. To-day the wholu of tlwt station is freehold, ha,-ing been realh purchased at the point of the bayonet from tl1e selectors yyho could not make a li,-ing on it. The whole 3C.OOO or 40.000 acres arc owned by the squatter. :\Iost of the land yyas taken up as selections, and the selector::. could not 1nake a liYing on it, and it was all purchased at a few shillings per acre. Take another instance of Ydwre the freehold system benefits the squatter.

}fr. :\oTT: \Yhat "a' the quality of the land·:

'I!Jc SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC L\:\DS. I '"ill admit that it is not nry g-ood land_ This is one of the ineYitablc L·ffccts that follow tlle cau~c- The c-<.!usc IYas g:iying

CpjJ''i' Bumett awl Callide [ll SEPTtomn:n.] Lwtcl Setlle111ent Bill.

a·ra· the freehold to the selector. No doubt. in other lli:-"tricts he has 1nad0 a

[5 p.m.] -urcc''S of his farm. Take. for e:_-,;:::unp10, n1~Y O\Yl1 district-Cairns.

E,-ery bit of land in the Cairns ~btrict was t2.ke11 up years ag·o under the :;;ystem i he hon. nwmber' opposite propose. It was taken up under freehold, and \Yas good scrub land. :\lost of the selectors could not make a Ji,-ing on the land.

:\Ir. KELSO: The•,- dicl not fail because it \Yas freehold. '

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LXJ'\DS: :\lost of the owners held on to the land long Pnough to g·ct ihe fr1'ehold and then they sold to other people for a few shillings per acre. :\lost of the land \Hts then owned by wealthY men and financial institutions. The parine;· of the hon. member for Stanley made a fmtunc tn that district.

:\Ir. :'\oTT: Did not the State also profit by the deye]oprnent there?

The i'ECRETARY FOR P"CBLIC LA::'\DS: Yes. The GoYernment built a mill there, and because of its construction the hon. member's partner made a fortune, and after making his fortune he cleared out of the country and inYested his money elsewhere.

:\h. I\' OTT; The estates there were going abegging' for years and year-..

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: This is the point I wish to make-that throughout that big district to-day you will not find one of the original frecholders get­ting any benefit out of that freehold land.

Jtlr. N"OTT: Other people have the free­hold now; but. if it had not been for the original selectoi·s, you would ha vc never had such a successful industry developed there.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Some of that land was bought by financial institutions at 10s. an acre. The Govern­ment spent £500,000 there on building a mill. and these freeholders subsequently sold their land for £50 an acre. Hon. member~ oppo­site. in the face of such facts, ach·ocate a '",(cm that has these results. \Vhv should a" s'·stcm be continued that gives i!1is result to financial in"-titutions and wealthy persons? The hon. gentleman should put forward a case sho\Ying that the sc'lcctor would benefit b' tlw freehold.

:\Ir. ="OTT: "\bsolutely.

:\Ir. G. P. BARXES: You have noi made out a ra~e that you can get f'UCDC'-'sful land scttlenll'nt under leasehold tenure. Your Governnwnt ha,-o failc•cl all along the line.

The SECEETAR \: FOR Pl7BLIC LA::'\DS : \Ye haYo had IiO opportunity :;·et. This is the first opportunity \\"O ha, e had of settling lancl·under the perpetual lease tenure. This i-; the ftrst opportunity that we haYe had of haYing good agrir'ultural land aYailable since \\"C haYe been in power. It is no good the bon. n1omber for Aubigny quoting the rate of selection, becan'e we have not had the land '"·ailable. People have been coming io the Departnwnt of Public Lands. bnt tlwy ha Ye not be<'n able to get good land.

:\Ir. KERR: \Yho.'e fault \\"US that?

The· SE( REL\RY FOR PeBLIC LA::'·mS': \Yc• did not han> the land.

:\Ir Kt-:RR: It lws been there all ihe time.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR P1.-BLIC LA::\DS: The hon. lllPtllber for Enoggcra doe::; nut know anything about it.

:\lr. KERR: It has been !here; nobody h,ce takcll it awa~·.

The SECRETARY FOR P1:BLIC LA::'\D:". It could haYC been opened up--

:Ylr. KERR; Certainly, it could.

The SECREL\RY FOE PCBLIC LA::\DS. \Ye could have opened it up as past Gm-crn­nH•nts -ha ye dont•-bv :;:ettling selectors on land 100 n1ilcs fron1 "raih·n1y ron1n1unication and let them take pot luck. It would not have been yery long under those conchbons before the bi;;. financial institutions \Youlcl own the who!~ of the land. \Vc have had t~ resume freehold lancl in the Burnett dis­trict from pPopl~ who purchased it. The whole i"ue is the alienation of the land. The Labour party is opposed to that. I \\"ant. to sho\Y the fallac,- of some of the arguments that the agriculturist b:nefits under the free­hold svsrem. and I will not employ tarra­dicldles such as that the Englishman's home is his castle.

Hon. \V. II. BARNES: You ha Ye been practising that-that the Englishman's home is his castle. (Laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LAI\'DS: I do not O\Yn an acre of land in Queensland.

Hon. \Y. H. BAR:s-ES: But you own ]cS'· than an acre. (Laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::'\DS: I will gi,-e the hon. gentleman an example of perpetual leasehold tenur<; which ,,-~s instituted by himself. The Babmda to.wnship to-dav is a perpetual leasehold township, and the h~n. member for \Yynnum introduced that s,vsten1 when he was Treasurer.

Hon. \\'. IL BARXES: A State hotel "·as crectt'cl upon the land by your Gon•rnmcnt, \Yhich collared what we introduced at the time.

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::'\DS: The hon. gentlen1an's interjection is n?t Yer_y rcleYant. He \\"ill haYe an opportumt,- thi~ ()YP!1ing cf discussing S'tate hotels and t.he­parliatt•··"'tary bar. \\'hat I want to I?Oil!: out IS that to-clay the Babmda iowmlup b

leasehold. lt is a prosperous tmn1, and CYt)ryone is sati~ficcl \,ith the tenure.

lion. \Y. II. BARXES: \Ye .do not sa,· thar there shalt not be any lt Isehokl tenure. \Ye say that the people ,]wuld han' an oppo_,.: tn;1ity of selecting under either the leaseholci or the freehold i enure.

The :-\ECHETARY FOR Pl!BLIC LA::'\DS: The ];on. g-entleman comes some of the wav. I vra~ looking OYer a speech .1nadc bv ·· :Yir. J. T. Bell when this particular n1rasure allm,-ing- optional freehold or lease­hold tenure \Yas introduced. On that occa­sion the hon. Q·entleman said that, if he had his tinH~ OYf'l'-o again in a new country like Queensland. he \Yonld have a new Land Act ~ under which he "·ould only permit leasehold selection. He was not a supportet· of the Labour party. He was an intellig·ent man1 and could see the dangers that are createo lw the freehold tenur0. I do not intend to nC·ccpt the anwnchncnt. Th0 ans1ver c~f the GoYt'l'l1lliC'~lt to t1Je chargP that sclecbon 1~ uot a ~ucCl';;:;~ under the l(~nsehold tenure 1~

Hon. 1Y . .lfcCnnnack.]

Cppu Bumett and Callidt [ASSE:.\IBL Y.j Land Settle:nmt Bill.

that we ha,·e had no ~·ood land for settle­r>Jent during the term~ of our office. The princiJde will lw applied to this area and wi!J be te·tecl. That i> a te~t on \vhich hon. n1e1nbt•rs opiJOsitc 'vill be able to Hog the Go,·ernment if it should be a. failure. \Ye a rguc that the perpetual leaseho)d tenure is f.('(·ure enough) and that the only difference between it aud the freehold tenure is that tlw people as a ,,-hole retain their right to the mvnership of the lane!. The selcctor unde1· the perpetual leasehold system \Yill be able to f.ell to another farn1pr if he '"i~hcs. He i:" :not tied to the land for eYPr and CYPr. and the land is reappraised frorn ti1ne to tinE'. l:- that going to be unfair to these people·:

:\Ir. :\IoORE: It has been unfair.

The SECRETARY FOR lTBLIC LA:\DS: \Ylwre: I would like to lun·e the cases pointed out in \Yhich tlw decision of the coun \\ H" unfair.

:\Ir. .Moom:: Look at the cattle lands tv-clay.

The SEC'HETARY FOH Pl.BLIC LA::\DS: l.-ou n1us-;_ ha Ye a systmn of reapprai5en1cnt. ~-on canuoL ha ye a reappraist:.)rncnt cycry tweh e J•Jcn.hs according to the price of the buliock.

}L·. :\loORI:: You asked if there '"as anY-thing unhit, and I pointed that out. ·

Th., f:EC:HE'J AHY FOR Pl.BLlC LA?\DS: It i~ not unfair. It is a systPnl of te11ure under vd1ich at certain perio'cls a reappraise­Hle:n of the rentab is n1nck. The station­(i\Yllers huc1 the full ach-antage of lov( rrnrals \rben cattle \VC'l'C at a high PricP.

::\Ir. :\IooRE: The Go,·crnment 1v-ould n.ot accept the decision of the Land Court- thev­appc,alpd at:,<lill~t it. ' ·

Till' SEC'HETAH Y FOH l'LBLIC: LA::\D~ ·. That is a 11 orcli uary nHU ter of bnsiness. The ~linistcr appeals against a decisiou if he CDn.~idcr3 that the Land Court has not giYE'll

full Yalue~ in the san1c n1anner as th(' appeals if he thinks that the Court

a3ses;:.ecl the rent too high.

)Jr. ICELi-'0: r~ llOt l'Pnppraisenlcnt a tax C'n thrift?

The SECRETARY FOH Pl.BLIC LA:\DS: The LLF,ilH"::.~ of the hon. g'entleinan i:s the grPatcot tax on thrift that cl know of. He indmL'S people to deposit their money at 3~ p0 r cent. in his institution. and tlwn lends that 1noney out at 6 per CPnt-. or 7 per cent.

I wish to str0ss just ono n1ore point. Tako nur \YP,tcrn lands. I "·ill not deal with pa:-;roral holdi11gs, a~ thE'y arc too large to ·iJC dL'alt \v-ith from the point of v-iew I wish to ~trc::-s. In the case of grazi11g h01nestcads and farms the lea.;eholcl tenure io not objected to in _a single instance. Xo one de.-;iros H graztng horr10.~-tead or fann of 5.000 or 10 000 ac·1·e, uncll''' the free hole! tenure. It \HJUid lw of no use for the pm·poses of the graziu~x fa nncl'. \Yhy is th('rC not a ·d0n1and

, that t!H •,e selectors should han' freehold? Do hon. IIW!Ilber« opposite' admit that thev si10ulrl be left undc'r the leaodwld IL'ntlre '? ··

:\I r. Ki:LSO : Gi H' them the option.

Tlw SECHEL\HY FOH l'1~BLIC LA:\l)S: ~-u Gon.•rnnlcnt~Hot CY<:n the Opposition if the. PYer hccctnP a GoYl'l'llnlent~wonld think

f'xh)ncling tl;p frt•oholcl tenure to grazing

[Hon. lL JicCormack.

farms. If the OppositJOn did "hat the.- now acl.-ocate, they \Yould bring about cluios.

::\h. :MAXWELL: You ha Ye had it.

The S~:CHETARY FOR PCBLIC LA:\DS: ::\o one say'~ that the bjg \YestPrn grazters should be giv-en freehold lane!.

:Mr. EDWARJJS: Xot in the case of large areas.

T!JP i:'ECRI<:TARY FOR PCBLIC LA::\DS ·. A liYin(r Hl'('a is not a large area. rrake the case of ~a selection of 10,000 acres. \Yhy is it not proposed to giYe them the freehold? Thev arc as much entitled to the property as a firmer.

1\Ir. DEACOX: \Ye are speaking- of a Ji,·ing arpa.

Tile SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LX'\DS: If the Opposition '"'''" in po,n·r. they ,,-oulcl not do 1t. Some of this lane! has been sold, nncl ,,-ith what ro«nlt?

1-lr. :\IOOHE: The land was con\·erh)d into freehold.

The SECHETARY FOH PUBLIC LA::\DS: Some people in the \Yest are paying a tax. of b. 4cl. an acre on In'ehold propeny. 'rhill' people alongJide pay 4d. an acre to tlw Crown. Freehold IS noi so adya,ntagcous as hem. rnernberB opposite would like 10 111akP out. lt is not at all advantagPou,, to per­'c.ns who intend to use the land, but to am·­r,ne IYho intends to speculate- in land freehol? is of course the most suitable tenure. It rs the be't class of land to financial institu­tions who propose to lend money. Quite r"centh- these institutions backed ,]u,.-n trom tht:ir l;igh attitude \\hen they ~a,,·, tl1P Go­vcrnrnent \V ere clcterrnincd to ( Dntll1UC the leasehold pri.nciplc, a.ncl to-day thPy are lend­ing mom'y on lcas~hold.

}{r. ICrxG: The: an) getting their cL1 \\--~. into the lessee.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:\0.'3: :\o, the Crmn1 remairts the landlord. The protection t.O the settler is in till' fac< that, 'he Crm.-n is the landlord. What has the• Cm\Yll done that it should be regarded as such a bad landlord? In n1o.,t in~t~Juce·-: it is Inost reasonabh•. I dv not care what Go~ \ l'rnn1ent is in po1vcr, jt will u~P CYPl',Y

('nclcaYolH' 10 kc'cp the ~Settler oH the l:lnd. The v-iew" of the Labour party are well kno\Vll in this regard. Our position is sound. Hon. members opposite hav-e not attacked it from that point of Yiew, but they admit that otH' goos side b:" siJc ·with thf' other. l ask that this '·ystem of perpetual lease be g1Yen a triaL and, if the holder gets better terms in the first fifteen vears, as "''" stated by the lwu. n1en1bcr for Cunninghani--

J\lr 1\loORE: The set tin pa.1·s ll'sc rent undN the old sy,jetJJ.

The SECRETARY FOR PUDLlC' LA:'\DS: 1 hav-e heard three spcuke1's speak iu partial L:l\-oln· uf the schen1o, and t~1e hon. n1en1bcr f{,r Cnnniughan1 nsed iho arguinent that it ,-.-as atl<'r the firel fifteen nar that rreub!P carnf'. If that is so, surcJ;~ we can '~nrry 011 till the fir.,:t reappraiscrr1ent. and. if the 1 npetual h'asehokl S' ,tem is then found a failure. ,,-e can re\ ert to tl1€' freehold system. How<'n'r it '"ill not be a failun•. \\-e kno"· 1hat in tl1e far \Ycst the pre.-cnt G~l\·ernm0nt did not sell the pt·opcrty: they !easl'rl the land ami retained the source of 'realth. -rhat i-:; olH~ rca.-oll \rhy pPople .-.hou1tl be ]H'L'~ YCIJtcd fron1 D\Yniug land. '\dJich i-s the "'0l1l'C'C

L'pper Burnett a11d ('allid( Lll SEPTE1IBER. J Land 8ettl1 ment Bill.

of all wealth. It should not belong· to any individual at all. \Yho i~ ti11ding the' n1otH'Y to build the raihrays?

l-Ion. \Y. H. B.\RXE~: The S£'1 tler,.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC' LA::\DS: The bon. rnember i:;; nc·YPr n_'n~ona ble. and for an ex-Treasurer hP has lL'3S kr1o"\dedgc o"f afia.irs than an.v otller hou. nH'lnb r in thi:-­Hcuse. £2.500.00G "·ill be expPnclc'd to giYe these ~.electors railwav eotnn1unicat1on. but no one suggests that ihi' amount will be n·paid bv the selt>ctors. ThP whole of tlw C"om­rr;unity \vill pay ii. \YP arc acring qnitP differcntlv to \\·hat prcvion:5 (;oYl'rllntent~ have acte~d. Laud \YrlS allowed to iw scl0etccl under the ageicultt~ntl hornP::>1Pad :;.,,~·.,;.tt>nl with all the disadnttlh<.::es that I h~ ,.e Jll'C·

Yionslv indicated--no mftrket and ll.o railway focilit~ies. In this case \Ye arc_• spcr.ding a Jrr~·ge amount of 111onc~v in gi,·ing access to the la.nd, and surely the public haYc an .interest in it? The public \Yill hfl\'•' to C'r<I'l')'

rite burden to cnabh' thP seitkrs 10 make a liYing. and the source of that wealth shoulcl t'cmain the property of the yy}wle of the pc·ople. \Ve bclicYc ·that the S)A<•nt will do nwav with mam· of the disadYantages that (~:\.is±ed under th(· old sv~1L'I1l. Hou. rnentbC'r~ '']Jposite han' not gin•i1 it a tria.l. ancl their <"ompariwns haYc noj bceu fair. On,· \YC''tc•rn land i6 all held under leasehold. and i., all s<·itled. I could settle tom of thousand' of acres if I had ii.. and ihis \\'ith a limited lease of twenty·cight years~--

Mr. Kr:-<G: There arc• thousand• of !llPl1

waiting for Uw lancl now. The SECRETARY FOR P"CBLTC L\.::\llS:

\.,. cs, and they do not eyen \Yant a verpt·tnal l0asehDJd. ThL·y \Yill tak.: thL' exi~tiug 1Pnnn• of twent,;·-eight years. I haYe ,aid all I ha\'C to say on the n1atter. Hon. D1C'tnber::- uppo~ite mav discuss it in an acadc1nical n1atP1t>r if 'the\~ so choo;-;c, lnn 1lH'l'C' ]::-; no e.hancc' of 1lw Cu,~-pl·nntl'nt altc1·ing- 1hei1· attitwlP. Hl!rl I arn not prepared to acct.'pt the anll'llcltlH .. 'Jl1

l\Ir. R\YAY::\E (Jiimni): I think \H· all n··alisPcl the• imlJOrtanC'l' nf t.11i..:. ([lli\'1 ion before the Rc·cretan fur l'nblic L'111cls llJDUP -ln~ spcoch. I1 i~ a 'faC't that OllP of the nulin points in thr~ Bill inYolYes \Yhat i~ a Jn·inci~ pa1 fcutur0 of the Goyr>rnttlent lliJ1icy-­perpetu.al lcasoholcl YPl'Sns fr<'Phold~<:mt the C~oycrnn1ent ha\-(' ha cl SC'YPll ypar:-. to proYP thPir polic)·. ancl. judging b, the results, i has been nn absolutP failure. "'dtPr all. re .. Ldis an' 1lw Lest fonnclat iom for the basis of any opinion as to \Ybetber the ~"'chr•nH' is good or not. Comparing pPl'­petnal leasehold with fn•eholcl. anu start­ing with our own po~ition in (_Juccnsland. we find ihat 3,133.371 a.er0~ were taken 11p in 1b' {\y·p ypars, 1910 to 1914. uncler freehold c·o11dition~. and duriug- the sanH• tinJc· onl~-60.424 acn'::' \YC'l'C' ~1 a ken up nitth'l' perpC1lHll lcnsehDlU. During tl1e [jyo :vear~. 1917 io 1921. under the prc~e11t Governn1eut. tllf'rP i'\Yel'L' no agriculturaL uuconditional.' or ~crub ~PlPc­tions, aud 2,033.369 af'rc~ \YC'l'(' takPll HD u., peqwtual leaS(' Sf']('ctioll~. J~trlgin!-( \Yholh' aad solcd,v fr0111 the point of viP\Y of :-.nccC';..;~ful land sciilenwnt~and \n' kno\\· that ilw wholl' fmm·e of Qnt•Pn.,Jnncl is Lonncl nJ> "·ith tlw ~n·tting of good settler~ Dll onr land~v:L• flntl that uncL~r the new ~'\'~tern ruJyoecnPLl bY thP SPCI'etary for Public Land:;;. the ~L'l tlL·lnC:llt of land dul·ing that fi\-('-ycar p-eriod. a~ c·otn­pared with llw f"·"~·ear p0riocl of tlwir Jn·ed.L'C'e<.Ssors. shows a dccren~c uf 1.161).428 acres in lca~Phold n~ c·on1pn r0t.l fn•f•ho1d :--dectjon.-. That i:-- rn;. flr:-;t Thr-

l\IinistPI' rnade a gn:-flt error whPn .h0 ~u~­W"tPd tlnt the perpetual leasehold syste:n yy,;s Hot fayou~·cd b\~ nredous selector:-; bccausP tht•rc-- \Ya;; no g~otf land HYailable for thPn.L \Ylwn }Ir. Ilr-nham \\·a« ,c;eC'rctary fo1· Pubhe 1.:"Hls in 1910~\Yhich \YRS jml the time my cotnparison j~ taken _frOin~~ettler~ ho.tL1 an option, and. if they thou'l'ht that pcqwtual lea'<'hold wa" the better. thc~e 3.133.371 acres --a lot of it good laJJd~YYhich \YCl'e takt'n np undn the freehold system \Youlcl han• been taken up '" perpetual leasehold. Tlus an:;.,yp1·~ onP of the "Jiini:::iPr's prinopnl a.rgn~ l11Cl11:'..

But that tenure did not appeal to the E'Pttlers. and they took up freeholcls. One of the great problems \Ye ha Ye to cle,tl "1th at ihc• present tmlC IS )ll'Icldy-pear, and we know. aecording to recent reports. that priddy-pc>a1· is enct 1aching upon the ~a1_1d~ of (.lueenslaJJcl at the rate of nearly a mlllwn acre"~ a ,-car. So far as rD11ing with that pest i~ conc:ei·ned~ the pcrpetua~ leasehol.d syston1 js d di~tinc._ failure. Dnr1ng the five yearti 1910 to 1914. when the selectors could eecure a freehold.· 4.187.148 acres were taken up undl'r prickly-pear condition~: but when the ]H·csent GoYernment. catne 1nto PC?'Ycr. the art a of land taken up undel' lH'Irkly-pear conditions fell in a similar pt>riocl to 1.514,835 aC'l'f.'s. ThereforL'. vou see ho\Y futile and ho·.,· detrimental· the perpetual leasehold S\·stL·lll is when vou apply it to that phase of the que~tion-a \~ery big phase, too. ,

'J'hen we are iolci over and o...-cr agarn how l!(·cc·s~al'\' it is for u . .; all that IYC sl~ould get the vcr~, best da~;; of agricultunst frotu aLro,,d 1:o corn<~ to Queensland to go on our lands and assi>t in making Queensland ~he great country that it is capablP of bemg r.Jade. \Ye shall not get that clas' If the (;cvPrnnlent onlv offer the pcrpPtnal ]ease­ho1cl tetntre~. aS these settlers ,,-ill p:o to tht' c-ouutrie~ cornpcting 1vith us. who are al...;o d(Jinn· tb0i1· ntn1o3t to attract that ,lcsiJ·able ~lass of seitlcwent. If a mccn is dt. ,iron::' of going to a llt'W countr~,' to esta).J~ 1 j,h a homl' for him,elf 011 the land. lw \\'Ill o·o \Q \]](' l'OUntl'\' thai olfers him n freehold, ~nd 0 fl'otn tha't poini of Yie\Y it i::' nC'cc-s~ Htr· 1hat 1n:• ~;hould reYcrt to the old systPlH cf ·optional frc·ehold tPllU1'P. "\Ye can SCl'

fl'om tlH: fto·tn·cs how lancl settlen1C'tlt ha~ tlf•crPaH_•,l n~d;,r rlw (.._~uvcrnn1cnf~ poilc~· of lPa~PLo1c1 tcnurp only. They lllll:"t sec that it ;., a failm'£'. ancl surely it would be better for lite' counirY if Uie\· would acknowh'dgP the failure of· their policy in thi, rc:gard am! l'l'YPrt to the polic: that has }H'ovcd a SlH'CCS6

in the_' prt~t: \Yc Hl'P q>Jitc aware tlmt abuses are ]lo,siblc­

umll'l' !he freehold tenure, and \Ye mule agree v;ith the J\lini~tPr that there have been y(.ry gn'nt abuses under that s.,~tern, but 1YP co .. t<!!Hl that you can get the nch-antages of fn:_·eholcl. and at the sarne tin1e you call so ."tlfC'!.ruan1 the svstcn1 that the :-tbnscs al·f~ impossible•. During the last fift0en or tYYent·· ~-t·ar:::.. tlle question of freol1old YCl'SlL.., lea_sc­holcl lHl' attracted a good d0al of attentwn iu :\(·\\' Zl'ala11d. an(l I l'C'Il1C'n1bcr a Bill being introduced in Xew Zealand to deal "·ith large holdings of freehold land~larger arl'a~ th~111 \YCrc nccC'ssan; to enable a n1all td nwkc a 1iviug. It \\~S cousidcred. d\sir~ nblP thnt ihe frec·holdcr should be lnmied 1u a liYing area, and <~t Ro;·al Cmn1nis~ion \\·a::; a pr>1inted i o decHle 111 i he Y_anou~ cli~1rict:3 according to rainfall. quality ot ~oil. nnLl ::.o on. \Yhat a liYing arpa \Ya:-;, and thl'' holdt'l':- of ]and iu PXCC'SS of it Wl'l'C:

.'~Ir. Swayne.]

~Cppcr Bumett ali(l Callide [ASSK\IBLY.] L!,!d Scttlcmeut Bill.

triyen a, certain nn111lwr of year:; to tiispo~e ~f all\' land held excct•ding a liYing urea. ~f YYithiil that time they had not reduced then· holdinQ·s to a li,·ing area, then the State ::-tcppc;l in nnd dispo~:~ed of ~he . exL:cs~ for thc•m, Lut it gayc the111 a fc-ur ,tune to g~t rid of the land tlwmselyes. Therefore, It i:;; 11ossible to guard agailht the eyi}s att<:ch­ino· to frt•eho]d tenure and at the s;une tune l.."P~ain all tllc ach·antages of it. \Ye know that in all thosC> .countrif's that are noted for their produf"ti,·C'nc:::.s, c.;:pc·cially agricul­tnnd productlo11, freehold is the tc11llrl'.

At 5.25 p.m., The CH.HIDIAS resumed the chair.

:'l!r. SlY~\ Y:\E: Xo coumry in the world is n1ore prodnctiYe, ~o far as farming and dainT produce are concerned, than Denmark, <tlJd \\'P know that the land there is not all of fir,t-class <Jnality. :Ylany years ago, before there YYas a change of method m J)cnnulrli::. it \Yas by no 1neans a productiYc cotmtrY. ~ :\"ow it is one of the most produc~ tiYc c~uutrie~ in the world, and freehold is the tenure there. In France at the time of the French Reyo]ution, peculiar doctrines --such a~ were advocated at Emu Park-were put into force, aad freehold was dcnoun~ed. Yd. when things settled down and condrhons

<returned to normal, it was found that they could not get on without freeho.ld. The land yyas distributed in small holdmgs, and for generations past the small landholder in Frar,ce has been the backbone of the country. These small Jandholders form one of the most stable and prosperous classes .of peOJ?le in Europe, and we know that the mdc,mmty imposed after the Franco-Prussian V\ ar of 1870 was paid by the small freeholder. In all cases where the two systems have been tried, it has been found that freehold tenure js the n1ore surce~sful so far as agriculture jg eoncerned.

In the matter of our pastoral lands, the tlniC has not vet arrived when we can decide what would lie a fair arcct of freehold in the \V 0st. The country has not yet reached its fnll stat0 of producti>eness, and the time b,u not vet come to discuss whether freehold or leasehold YYoul·d he the better tenure there. At the sarne tirnc, we ha ye already seen· tho danger to Queensland of tampering with those ]Qa.•cs. \Ye are told that under the perpetual leasehold system there will be a reappralsernent cY~ry fifteen years. \Yhat surcn- haYe ''"<' that that will alwa~·s be tho caoc• ·:' Quite l'oeontl.• there has been a breach of faith in connection with the pastoral le~:;;l.'S, ar.:cl IYhat assurance h;:n-e "'"' that 1h('l'(' IYill not be a breach of faith in connf'e­tion YYith the agricultural lessees 9 If it i, thoug·ht that tlwy are at all prosperous and ihat i'Ol11L1thing can be squeezed out of then1 before 1 he flftccu years are up, \Ye shall pro­bablY ha,-e an alteration of the law under whidr thev took up their perpetual leases and have~ rcappraiscn1cnts 1nado in fixe nl' ten years. If any proof _were \Yanted as to the popularity of freehold, I need onlY point out that. only a f_e1; years ago ·w~ had the 'Pectacle of a Thinustcr of the Crown taking up something like 1,60,0 :'cres just Ldore the Gm·crnment I;llade Jt Impossible to secure anv more freehold from the Crown. Tllat hon. gentleman evidently thought frce­lJOld \Yas preferable. and I ban• never heard 'incc that he desires to change that tenure into lcas0holcl

Taking the ca~c frmn the point of Yie,,- of a <'o1npari~on of costs undor freehold anrl

[ Jl r. S1rayne.

pt•rpetlhtl lL'i:l.'3l'~lU'rtl tenures. it \Yorks OUii like thi,-

_\omccLIUL\L F.1mr (FREEHOLD). £

('~ llital Y<tllll1 of, say) 1.230 ao'C:' r~--pnrdw~c·d for £1 per acre-adding nr:c-tluth i.40d 0

Total purf'Ln•ing lH'icc a.s ac.ricultural farm 1wid

an Hl

h\·c11t;· ~·~..·a r £1.408 0

l'EHl'ETC.\L LE.\i'E.

Fi1·~t 1lftcc·n years at 4 per cent. pl'l' annu1n of capital Yaluc 1 £1.4C8! 844 16 G

:\es.t fin~ Years at 5 per ceut. of cal!ital \ dim• i£2.5601-·-a'Sulll~ lll~' that on rcappn.tise.mcnt tll(' <..·alJital YahH' lw~ been raised w. £2 l"'r acrL' 640 0 G

Tot a 1 payn1c11t )'C'lil'-··

Ill

1.484 16

DiiTerenrc in fayour of agl'l-l"Ultta·al farm £76 16 Cl

But whPreas the a oTicttltural farm has beCOUH' ft"l'<'hold, the

0

[JPrpetual leaseholder· \Yill g;o on paying rent, and ,dur~ng the fol-

Iowin o· tt;n years \V Ill pay an [5.30 p.nl.] additi";mal £1.280. He will

tiwn be dut• for another r<'apprai"'nwnt. The point hae been raised Lv the :\Iini,ier that the land Is the propert:v of the people. and we quite admit that .. A hceholdcr cannot take it out of th" counh·y: It io there to tax, and from that standpomt it ic> to thr int,·rest of the people as a whole that the land should be applied to the YCry best~ purpose and l>e made as procluctiYe and fruitful '" po"ihl0. \Ye know from what ha' ah·ead,· happened that the bc6t .way to grt land l!lade· productiYe 1~ to gn·c .the o\YllC'l' of the land the greatest poss1~1le iLtcrc:"o.t in it. and 1 he way to cn('ouragc_ l~1111 tc• put it to the \'('T:V: bP~t US(' iR by ~1\~Illg him t!H' frecl>olrl. \\ c !taYe already !nmtecl tlu• an'a which can he giYen, so that free: lJOld YYill not be "lmscd. The land after all 1dongs to 1 he conlltl'Y, and cannot be ta.ken nw;T·r. Slnct.1 thP GoYPrnment CEune ~nto officC and put thC'ir thpory into opprahon, (·on;part.1d \Yitl~ frf'eholrl _i·he lcas0hold t0nll1:~ !uP bcc•n a lllH'rable fadnrr. EYcn at thr, iah• hour I hone dl<' matte,. in!! be rc>con­eitlcrcd. and 1hat they "·ill !'CC that the ,,o]icY of l<•aseholcl is a mistake for. Queens~ bu~cl: and 1Yil1 alter it. L.\s to saying that th~ pC'O]J10 Df Qnf't'n~1ai1l1 ~aYe thPnl a ll1DI_J­dat0 nu the rrur~1 ion. trrk1ng th0 ap;~rf'~atc n:tcs cast at tht• f'lection. it can be 'aHl that the people a~ a "-halt: arc agn1nst the ~:·~tern of 1en_~-l"holt1 tt•nurc Jll>S~ a::-.. 1nuc,h ?~. 1~ can br~ ~tud theY deelarrcl 111 faYOUI 0.1 _It, lnn 111.\- opinion· i~ that they .. did not rons1der the qtlt.'stion nt nll. ~~nnng' tht:. ~vears, when 'l'itlers had the opt ton of taklll~ pc I pctual lu1se in>tead of freehold. thr~· -chd not take up p0rpetn~l ]pn~{-.s to an~v extf>nt, and du.r­in(l' fwt nmc son1e of the b0st land 111

Ot7oridanrl ''""' taken up under. freehold. ThP \Iini~tf'r \Yft.,. Cl_lntc wrong 111 f'ay1ng that the reason why perpetual ]easr!wld •vas nut uclopted lwforf' \Yas because the pcop_Ie hnd not a dwnf.e to get ~rood Jand under n., If ·yre I\' aut to ;;1ttra0t thP . ~c.st class of ~0tt lf?r'- f n \lll 1 he nl r1 (·Otlll tr:L 1t 1 s' onlY free­hold tf':1U1'(' -~, i"Jieh -~sill 1Jring- thost1 ~ettlPr<:· here.

Upp,,· R11meti awl Callide [ll SEPTE~IBER.] Lmu/ Settlement Hill.

:\h. EDIYAHDS (Tanuli(!O): I consider that the :\Iini.ster. "·hen replying to argu­n1ent-s raisC'd on i his side, n1adc out a very good l'chC in the intf'rcsts of the frccholdcr. In the fi;·si place, he said that freehold Jenure \\·as the best tenure from a security poiut of YieY., and that banks and other print· iustitutions wished to continue the frc>Phol<l tpuuro, became it is the best tenure jn thPir intl'rC'::;ts. If that is so in a TIC\V

('Olllltn' like Queensland, it is an nrgumcnt in fanmr of freehold tenure. The failure of sP!tl<'DH'JJt. g·enerally nnrler leasehold tenurt'. and the r•:dont to which prickly-pear is OYClTnnning the State, prove that \Ve rcquiu: omcthing different from Ieasehol·d temn'<'. Tlw statement of the Minister that thP soitler could got greater assistance from financial inetitutions under the freehold tenure .shows that under that tenure we could do Jntwh n1orc than we .arc d0ing now in ~cttlin~: the areas \Yhich are being- 0verrun by pricklv-pear. The ::Y1inistcr sai-d that leasehold tenure is a principle laid down by the Labour party, which they are going to stonrl bY. Then he said that it was intro­duced 6Y the late Hon. J. T. Bell when Secr<'ta r~· for Public Lands, who was not a Labour man. That proves that leasehold tenure ie not a principle laid down by the Labour party. The question we have to dis­cus" i;; whether leasehold t.enure is the better in the interests of close settlement. The :Minister spoke of the settlement of our \\~eo-tern lands. If the hon. gentleman con­siders the report of the Prickly Pear Com­mission, and glances at the map attached to il, he \Yill realise that the sooner we settle those Western lands under the freehold h'Hurc the better, if his argument is correct that the o-clilcr can get greater financial assista1we to assist him in ha ttling with the pear if the land is taken up under freehold tenure.

There is another question which is all important from the point of view of a State like Quc<~nsland. Seeing the huge amount of good country ·which we arc losing year hy :'\-car OIYing 1o its infestation by prickly­pear. arc we justified in dictating to the settler \dwt the tenure of the land shall be?

The SccRET.\RY FOR AGRTCcLTURE: Have vou read the report of the Royal Commission on prickly-pear?

::llr. ED\L-".RDS: Yes, and I want to say that that is a rnost disastrous report.

The CHA IR:\L\~: Order! I hope the hon. mcmbel' wili not discuss that question.

:\Ir. ED\YARDS: I was dra"·n off the t>ack,

The CILUB}L\..:\: The hon. member must ln:my tl1at interJeCtions al'c disorderly. \Vi!! hL' actdrc .. ~s hin1sc1f to the an1endn1cnt?

:\Ir. ED\YARDS: That should apply to the Secretary for Agriculture, as it was he who intr>rjected. Seeing that prickly-pear is sprca{ling ~o rapidly over the best areas oi the State, is it not reasonable to ask that \H· shoucd offpr· settlers who arc prepared to conlP hPrc-and on the J\.tlinlster's D\Yn argu­ment the freehold (emn·o attracts the best cla" of settler-the vcrv best inducements to help us to combat the ~lifficultics \Yith \Yhich \YC ha YC to contend?

The :\Iinistcr argued that the Labour part:-· ~,n~nr out at election i inH' on the principle of lca...,t•hoid tl'llllrc. a11d that the Opposition n1cn1-bcrs ,._ ·nr om on the pl'inciplc of an option to

take freehold or lcasd1olcl. and that the rcst!lt of the election '"'" a mandate from the people to the Gonrnmcnt lo carry out their policy. That is no argtunent at al1, because if a \-otc had been raken of the settlers in Queensland, I am satisfied the Government would be in a \er:;' diff,•rcnt position-\Yhich pro.vcs be­yond doubt that not a groat deal of notice can be takcu of a Yote taken in the large <'~ntt~cs Df population as rrgainst the country ch~1ncts.

Tfw SECRET.\RY FOil l'LBLIC IA;;Ils: All rhe people had a say.

:\Jr. ED\1' ARDS: I am nef arguing that they did not have a sa:-·, but the result shows that the Gcn·Prm1101:t. who claim that they are trying to do the best they can in the interests of our rural population, should not take the rcsnlt of the election as a mandate.

2\Tr. FOLEY: ·what is the difference bet\yeen lr-aschold and. freehold?

2\lr. EDWARDS: The :\1inistcr has proved this afternoon that the freehold tenure is the !Jettcr from the financial point of Yir•\\.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PcBLIC LA:\DS : For the financial institutions.

Mr. ED\VARDS: Will not the :\1inister admit that we require all the assistance we can g·et from the private money-lender as well as from financial institutions?

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LA:\DS: \Ye do not want to give them a strangle~hold oYer Queensland.

:Mr. EDW ARDS: I maintain that prickly­pear is getting a hold oYer the land and that, if the Gonnnment had not interfered with pri ,·ate capital as they ha Ye done, \VC would have had a great deal more money here-on the )linister's own argument-to -deYelop .om· lands than \Ye have.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA:\DS: You are 111j sreprescnting.

:\lr. EDWARDS: I am not. The :\Iinister proved to the Committee that the freehold tenure is the better from the financial point of YiC\V.

The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC L\:\DS : 1 said it \Ya' the bt>ttcr for the financier.

:\Ir. ED\YAHDS: Is not that an admission that the financier will ]('nd T1is n1one-;· n1ore readih to frceholc!ers than to leasehoJ.clers, and that, therefore, the freehold system is th<c bettr•r from the point of Yicw of settle­ment? In the Southern States, where the ,,c·ttl,•r has been able to obtain freehold and has IYorkcd to rnake a hon1e for hin1se1f and hi,; familY, he has in hunclrecls of inshnoes !"·en able to saYe c·,lpital to enable him to conH! to Qucensland-1vhcre hu~rc areas of land are an.Jilab~e--\Yith his so11:". and take up land hen•. \Yhcn :.on discn,s the question of lep_,,chold tc•nnrr \vith them, •·on ,,-ill find tha-:: thcv arc not intere~tcd. Those \Yho conw to ·Queensland unfortunately C'llllC \Yith the one object of settling here for a' time and nwking son1c monL•:,·. and if they cannot then coJ,\'Crt their holding·s into freehold, they will not stay. ThC~t has been th<• difficulty \Yith our scttlcrneut for a nuulbPr of :'\-curs past,. a; was proYc<l by the figures quoted this after­noon. I find that during the seven years frono 1908 to 1914 10,240,214 acres of I and were s0lectcd, whil"t in the ;;:.cn;n ~·0ar:-3 fron1 1915 to 1921. 4.816,417 acres \\·ere secectNl-a decrease of 5.423.797 acres. The aYeragh d ur in o· tho"' Year> \YCre-1908-1914. 1.462.888 1!C"l'P~ -~~ 1915~1921, 653.Q6Q ilCl't's~a df.'('l"f'H.S(~ cf 774.82::-; <UT(' . .; llL'l' aJJillUll. In 1914. rhe

Jlr. Erlzmrds.]

Cppc:' J:iu·'"'t a ,d Callide [ASSE:\IBLY.] Land /:)ettlwu.nt B ili.

v·pulat io:1 of Queensland wao 676.707. and in 1922 it had incrca'cd to 790.522. so that the ir;crcasc in 11npulation cluri11~?; tlle pl'riod was l7 per cent.. >~·hilst the selection of our agri­cultural Crown lanch decreased by 53 per cent.

Tlw Minister this aftemoon stated that one of the reasons for the decreased land selection \\'aS that the Government had not so much land available as prcviou.-3 GovenJnlcnts. In 1ny opinion, the LaLour Gov('rnrncnt, sinCe 1915 have had an a-ch·antao·e over the Govcrn­Inent \Ybo prcccJed then1, in YiL'\\' of the huge n1ileao·t..' of railwav which "·as cou~tructed lr,· their ~n·edeces:;;or~~ I adrnit that it is ver)· hard to decide \Yhrthcr the lam] \l·hich the present Govc1·nmeut have had opened for selection \YU~ as valuable a·, the land \\hich th(' previous GovCI'lltllent hacl an1ilable. but I tun quite sure that hon. DlC'tllbers ou the other side eau bring forward no argument whateYer to prove that the leasc}l{)ld system has been a success in Queensland. The soldier settlements, \Yhere the Jea>ehold svstem wa,, adopted, proYcs that there is son1ctlling wrong 1\ith the lPasehold tenure. It is cl,uJgerous for us to continue laud settlement on that .:::ysten1 any louger. \Ye 111ust have settler~,, and \Ye vi-·ant thP \·cry be:st settler;:; that \H.'

eau gPt in the hintt'r:'and of Qneeusland.

:\lr. Dn;sr.'.x: llow do You account for the \Yidge,~ settler~ seeking "conver~iou to the lctt<ehold system?

:\lr ED\YAHDS: Tlwy adopted that ~::::.tenl for the sanw reason t,}lat the Jinl­Lum settlos aclopted it. The hlnd "as re­purchased cuu11try antl was eapitalisetl to !3Udl an extcut that it \Ya:~ iulpos:;iLlc for thL' E-etdl'l'S to pay the reut ou such a high ca]litalis.ltlon. and tht>y \d-'1'0 lll'l'pJn•cl 1o

take anytl1ing rather than get out. That i:-3 1101 all urgnlllL~llt iu faYOUl' of the leasello~d tenure. In discus-::.ing the question of free­hold versus lcascho~d \Ye should P.~d.;: our­.sch·cs, .. Are \Ye going to get as good a da~i' of ~ 'tt!cr undl'l' tht' hard-aud~fnst sYstCul cf lea~eholcl tenure a~ \YC \Yotlltl gei ~U1de1· conditions that 1n·ovided for the collYCl'ting of the land to freehold, v.hich would enable n:- to 111akc 1t sou1e day our own·:" If we adopted tl!L' freehold ;::,}~stcul, wl' <:Yotlld get tlloU·,aiHb of settlt•rs frou1 ·yjctoria, ~l'\Y ~ou1il \Y ales, a11d ::)outh .Australia, wl1en' d1L' frer'hold sy ·tl'tll lJrenlils. \YP \roullt get 1h:n1sands of settlprs if ·we \Yl're to ji'sue t.;-lllDl'l'OW propngaLda stating: that -the ~ucensland Go,·enln1Pnt are prepared to offer laud to odtlcrs on the freehold svstem. \Ye 'njuld 1101 g('t .~ettlers \Yho dcsir~J to conH' ben• aucl a:;;k for Goyern1ncut assistaucc, but .Sl't t l~..•r-; 1\·ith capital. \Yho \\·otdcl co1ue here a11d \\"Ol'k thi~ countL".· and IllakL' it what it :::houlcl lw Ye be· en yea1~s ngo.

l\Ir. FOLE>: Tell '" the diftcrenl'e between tlJ<> t\\'o tP!IUl'f.'~.

:\Ir. ED\YARDS: If the hon. gentleman hHl e\·cr worked on the land and tried to nwkc a hon1e of his O\Yll, he \Youlci know tha: tllcr(~ i:-:; 110 greater itH.:entiye than tho fal't that the howo \Yill somo daY be vour 0\'>n and you \Yill haYc the prope1'tc' entire!}· for yourself. It IS a yer.-- shorbighted argu-1HC'llf for th0 Co·~-ernnH'nt to adopt to sav tl>at tltc land belongs to the State, and tha·t it should bt; l'l'rtppru isPd eYcn· TIO\V aud then i:1 ord0r to Q.·r-t s..!TCrrtcr 1 -:'YC'l;nc- to tl1t' StatP £ron1 th0 sett'lcr:"-.- 1f the settler i~ lll';:::.pc~·on-... i-:. IH' 11ot produl·iu~· reYennt: at ;dl tirnt'~ ·:

[:llr. Ed1cc~rd;;.

Is that not the best method of deriYing reyenue from the people': By giving them cyery assistance in the >Yay of desirable laud tenure thov are thus able to make good. and they can then pav reYenue into the coffers of the State from· their produce and ha ye successful settlements and successful ltomes.

Mr. W. COOPER (llosezcoo'IJ: The ques­tion of whether the leasehold tenurP 1s a success or not has been thrashc•d out time and again by hon. members opposite. Hou. tno1nbers opposite clain1 that that s2,·stenl ha8 uot boon a success. It con1cs a::, a surprise to me to hear them say that. I can safely srt\' that there is three times as much land he"td under the perpetual lease system as under the freehold svstem. I heard an hon. mcn1bcr argue that V there was no illcentiYe fm a man to go on the land and work it for himself because it could rwver become hi:; O\Yll. I-Io ah,o argued that there was a difference between the heeholcl and the lease­hold tenure. I would like to ask him what that -difference is. As a matter of fact there is no difference. L'ndor both systems thoro is an agreernent bchveen the Crown and the selector holding the land that the selector shall hold it until the C'ro\Yn desires ic for wrnc puolic utility. The Public \Yorks L,wds Resumption Act can be put into opera­lion at any time, and a freehold can be taken for the purposes of raihvay con~truction, pa.rks, or anything else. under the freehold tenure a peri3on has no greater right to land than be .ha,; under the lo<~seholcl tcmll'l'.

l\h. En wARDS: Thai is not correc·t.

Mt. \Y. COOPER: You kno\\· it i, cuncct. If you look at the agrecnu~nt~ you v;·ill :-;ce tl1at. tho Cro\vn can l'8SUllle land at any tinH.', y;hether it is freehold or leasehold. A deed under the freehold tenure i:s only equiyalent to an agrel'nlent with the Cro\\ n under the perpetual leasehold systeu1. llou. gcntlcn1en UlllJOsite haYe argued that a nw.n can ucyer haYe the land as his O\YIL \\"c lo•o" that n~ some of the older couBtric.;:. 6nch as Great Hritaiu. \Yhieh is the 1nost eon:-erYatiYe ccuntr": in the world, Uoyernincnt~ in the 1·a~t have (·on1pcl1ed o"\\·ners. of land to cut up land in onle1· that n1eu uwy '' ork it and [>roduct' for the nation's wclf<tn•.

I ha\·C' ha-d .sorne cxpcrienc,- iu taking up land. I ha ,-e \York eel on land. both uudcr tlw freehold and the leasehold tcmrrc. U11e LorL gct1tlcn1an rnentioncd Victoria. LPt lllC

lltention :\'cw South \Yale·. In :\'c'\\' Bouth \Yale'3 tbe land could be taken up un.der frecho:ct tc'lltll:e ot· the free selection :-:.·,·stenL The ]l]('Jl \\XtO took up land uefor,: 1893 certainly got it at a dwnp rate so far as the pric-e• of land was concerned. bLtt unfor­t tllllitPl;v they vvere CO!llpellecl to go to the banks and borrow. \Yhy did the: do that·: Becnu.se ther \Yauied suffiricnt lllOIWY for t-tork ar.d tO i1nprore their selectio11s ~;::;.o as to carry on. \\·hat happenetl during the lm11k cl'isis; Son1e bank:::-particularly the ..:-\u::.tralian Joint Stock Bank-altbougl1 it Jnadc a hugt' fortune WPnt into liquidatiou. and tlld SOtllC of t.he ruost di:,houest thing~ that it as po5siUle for a11;;· bank to do. ~

Hon. \V. fl. 13.\R:\[S: Hov; did thry go into iiqnida•ion if they nutde huge fortnnes .,

:\Ir. \Y. COOPER: They practic:dl,,~ \Yent l1:to liquidation. and it took the selectors n~nnv y0ars before the~, got thl'il' 1nonev hack·.

~Ir. l~ELSO: "\~on arr eonirndic·riug- your.cclf.

C\ir. \Y. COOPER: They afterwards called themeell·u the A B C Bank. They made the money afterwards.

:\fr. K· L~O: They ,Jid not.

'VIr. \V. C(r(IPER: You know nothing about it.

~Ir. 1'\:IL~O: I know n1ore about it than you do.

}Ir. \Y. CUUPEH: The hon. gentlemau has nen·r Lcen on thu land. aml does not knO\V v .. ·ha.t thC' farn1er has tJ conte!Jd ''-·ith. Ar this particular time the Lank was paying 3~ per cent. on money deposited, and then went into liquidation and afterwards had the audaciL to charge thc'e men 5~ per cent. for their own mom•y. That is what happened under Uw s:. •tom adopted by previous Go­YPrnrnPnh tbat '"ere Conservative. Not 5 per cc·nt. of the orig111al farmers vrho en1barked ill the dair~ ing industry on the Hichmond River some year3 ago rernain. They ·were practiully driYPll off tho land he rhc exccc­siYf' iuter~-·~,t charge's 1uade by the ba1Jk<5, and tc·-day, if \VC were to conunit ourselves to the freehold tenure. the same method, would probably by adopted by the pri>ate bank& towards seHicrs. The opportunity of rnaking good on t.hcir selections undN the fre.-hold tenure is r.ot nearly so good as under the leasehold tenure.

:IIr. KELSO: How did the leaseholder get on in 18J3 1 (Opposition laughter.)

2\Ir. IV. COUPER: Thero \Yore no lease­holder::; The Uoycr.nnwnt5 'vcro conlp!.:-.,ed of rnen like the hou. TJl('lllbcr~thcv v;onld not g-iYe Crorrn l:t:nd l1ndl'l' ihc per}wtu:tl ka.-..e~ hold system. Hon. gentlemen opposite haYe L'ndeaYoun'd to bring abont the ::.-y·::ten1 of fret'hnlJ tenure bee a use they desire to bring about land 5l1L' uh1tion 60 that their friends eau obtain land and n1ake rr1oncy at the expeme oi the nnlurtunatc settlcrc. One tlnng thut tho hu11. Incinbcrs opposite haye fnrgottcr. to 11oint out to this Chan1ber in

111akiug con:;pari~ .. ;ns with regard [7 p.m.] to the quantitv of lan<l >urren-

dercd h·orr, 1909 to 1914 and fcom 1915 up to the pre,cnt time, is that during a <·ertain time in the latter period the various States of the Commonwealth were bucv in BPnding men w,vay from Australict to fig.ht. They were rather more busy in sending them H'.vay than in settling men on t)1e land. ·we know from figures given to us in the past that there \YNC at least 50.000 men cent away from Queensland. \Ve can safely assume that 25 per cent. of this number, provided they had been here from 1915 to 1919, would have become settlers. Then there is another fact t.hat tho hon. gentlemen opposite have not told this Chamber. That is that in good times the banks are prepared to lend money to the farmers or anybody else, but immedi­ntely a time of distress appears the banks call up their overdrafts as soon as i.t is possible for them to do so. If the banks wiah to see Australia settled, an obligation is cast upon them t<J assist the farmer in times of distress and not hamper him in his operatiol13, as they have done so long as l can remember. In New Zealand recently an Act wa' fJ.>ssed to prevent the banks driving mc'n otl th~ land. \Vhen l\'ew Zealand is oompellcd to pass an Act 0 £ that kind, there muBt b3 something wrong with the system of bank­ing. There is nothing wrong with the sy-tem <lt bankin.~ :-o far as then are concerned them~ s0hcs. [,t,-t their police: with regard to the n;"sistancc they gi ,.e to the man on the land

is ,,yn :1g "~e know that 1lwrc \',;a.;. a sclH•n!G (,f land ::wttlt'flh'I,~t in Quco~~,land in 191C. \Yhat atr:tudc did the (:oH•rnmcnt of the t!nY ad~rt 1Ln\,nd-.. the nHHl on the land? Th'''' dJ,cnm.natcd between the natjye-born (if QuL,·nsland and the native-born of the (AhC''- St,ttcs of the Cornmon\vcalth. They !..:TantPd the sons of farn1er3 frorn \rictoria­~nid fnrn1er:::. frorn Yictoria., rhc priYih;]e of trayclling oYer CJ1lf ral!\ray~ fr('('. of chargC>· t, inspect the land, whrle the nahyc,Lorn of Qr;pcn:-~and '-··ere clc'rnc'd thcsan1CplTnlcgc. It ;]} bccon1c~ the Oppcsition to rnake a charge agl\inst the Gm·crnment of having a bck of i1~tefl'd in !3t:ttling the nwn on the land, and in saying that freehold tenm·e is a better l'"licy than perpetual lca~chold. If, a man uces out a11d takes np a p1cce of 1ano to~day ;m.Jer the pnpetual l'asehold system, he dooo ~o at 1~ PL-'l' cf'nt. on the uniinproycd yalue o£ the lnnd. There an~ t\Yo great reasons \Yhy the ( JrJpDsil'ion do not_ \Ya~t the sy:::tPn1 of per-1" tual leaeehold. (J:w IS that by some stretch of the in1agination they n11ght be g1v1ng son1o privileges to the man on the land. \Vhat has tl:eir atlitudc been towards the men on the laul? What did they do with fho money n·ceived from Crown lands? I' a eh time that thev were likelv to have a deficit they sold the~ Crown la.n1fs, \\·hich sy:-:-tcn1 the:,< \Yant ue tn brillg iuto operation.

~Ir. CoRSER: GiYf' us ~on1e in.st::tnc£'3.

}Ir. \Y. COOl'ER: I can give many il!::- t ,UlCC·~.

:\fr. C'OhSER: Give us one. :\Jr. I.Y. CCiOPER: The hon. member is

u:. t goi~1g to draw I ne L ff the track.

).1 r. \Y IRRE\: : Yon a re !lot on the track.

~;lr. \Y. C( 1UPER: They cut np a qnartce of n, n1illio~: ncrt'3 <:f lautl and placed the prnt red~ in Consolidated RCYl'illll', and then \H nt to the Ct.Jnntrv and said they had a,

"Ul'l,hL". To-da: wC own as n1uch Crown J:,1,d as ""'' did in 1915. It appears to mo tl:at t hl' other grcclt rca5-,on i::; that the./ \\-a11t to gi\-c rh:·ir friend-; an opportunity for lanJ 'JlCCLllation. \Yn knmv that the bc.t l,llldlord is the Government. All you hn-c to do to Jlrove it i' to go out into tho ulti and n1ore closely: settle-d_ districts. You will find then- that" the farmers who went on~ in the early days arc gone, land spec~­lcPr- hane stepped in and secured their lioldin'"'· >tn>l to-dav are leasi!rg those lands tu unf~r-tnr.ah~ nlf'n~ -who cannot obtain land t'xccpt under ]ea:3e ot· rent_ Co1Y1pare what the landlori!ls are charging \Yith what the UoYcrnmcnt are likely to charge under the pH[Jctnal lease system. \Vhen I was on the Rilhmond Hiver in :\ew South Wales, a li1tlc' on·r three rr:onths ago, there was a land outcrv from the tenant farmers, who \vere asking the Government of ='iew South Wales to protect them from the extortionate landlord, '"ho was charging them from £2 10<. to £3 per Be-re for ]and for which he had paid only 10<. per acre.

The S2CRET.IRY FOR PCBLIC LA~DS: And freehold is the forerunner of the tenant farm(•r.

Mr. \Y. COOPER: As the Secretary for Pnblie Land~ saYs. freehold is the forerunner of the tC'nant ia,:nwr. I was born on the Hu,lter Ri,-cr. where men received land free of l'h~rgP frOn1 the Governn:Pnt, and 'ver0 f'Hll givc·n a !ut of cnnYicts to work that land for 1h<,m. Th(>C 'lands have been handed down -ro their "(Hl'3

7 th~"ir grand~ons, and their

.lir. w. rooper,]

058 Cppu JJurue/1 and Callic:c [A::i::>K.\IBLY.] Lwal Sett?eitleilt HI/!.

arc charg'ing £4 10s. !,uod that their pro­

That i::: vurely sY:-:.tcrn. a.ud · ncYcr to

urought l'1o1L 11!Pl11bf'r.,. oppositu

did with the Yarra-handed it ('YC'r to

on a tenure and charged

ls. 6d. per 100 for J'O\ cltv on the timber. a :rail;ra~7~ rnuning through

couni rY a;1d no n1a11 ~can get land there tHl aerour:.t ~~,_f t-he tenure giYPn by the .Tory (~c~Ycr_._:.n1C'nt. lf this GoYernincnt repudiated that agrcPntCnt. \\~hat a ho1Yl \YOtdd go up! If those lands \\·ere op8ned for settlem0 m to~n1orrow. the GoYernrnent \vould haYe ~oro applieatiom for it than they cou!J poss1bly accedo to.

:'vir. PETER SO:\' (X ormanb1J) · I have listened carefully to the speech of the Secre­t 1.rv for Pnblic Lan-ds and \Yish to dra1v pat:ticular attention to two points. The first is that he ,aid that it was realised that the people were ftt to be trusted in the matter of 'tating which tenuro they like best. The "cconcl point that the Minister ga\"o out to the Committee and to ihc country was that the fornJet in no wnv contributed to the unearned increment of !}is farm. Tho'!: are two r·oints tht> Tlfinisiet• made-unless ho alters •• IIansard" in the 1norning. ,

The SECRETARY FOR P<.:BLIO LAXDS: I am not .as slippery a customer as you arc.

The CHAIRYI:AN: Order !

;'vfr. PETERSO=": The hon. gentleman is usod to making interjections ol ~1n insulting nature. It is a habit with him. and we are quite used to his insults--at least I am. I shall be very please-d to tl'll my fanners that the Secretarv for Public Lands in this Assembly stat'ed that they di-d not contribute to the unearned incrPment-I am speaking ot mv own district. Let us take the Dawson ValleY. Bdoro that area was thrown open for settlement it was ono dense scrub. Who contributed to the · um.arned increment there? Was it the politician? "\Vas it the railway 9 \Vas it the \Yorkers in Rockhamp­tou or elsewhere? ::\o, Sir. It was the brain and muscle and sinews of the farmers who went into those areas that created the unearned increment. l'p to a certain point I believe in the principle of pPrpetual lease­l•old. I say that under certain ,J;;jrcumstances -particularly to the man who J!!lhs 1:0 money or no available capital-the pnncrple rs a o-ood one: but I want to show some of the ~vctkness0s in order that it ma~' influence the ::\1inister to try and rectify thc'c_ anon~a­lie whP.n the~· arc brought under h1s notwe from time to time. \Ve have been told that tho Government are the best landlord. I have yet to belieYe that dictum to be true because I know that. wheneYer the settlers in my district arc stricken down b:-·. drought and other adverse c~rcumstances. thts benoft­cent Government. and previous Governments. have been adding a 10 per cent. penalty. Talk about extortionate interest ! Talk about financial institutions crushing the settlers! The Minister and his department have done more to crush settlers in Queens­l~nd than· a-nY financial institution. The talk about that makes one smile.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIO LAXDS: Is that not a. penalty?

[21-Ir. W. Cooper.

::\{r. PETERSO:\': It dew<· not matter· "het her vou call it Ol' an incrca::;o of iutercSt: tht cttlcr::J havt: t; pay it. 1 t th0 can Jncur-porh;u i11 Cti~ Bill a provi::,iou that .'lt_'ttlcr.:-; ,. JJo take· up pcrp0tual lPa;;;c·J ~ball l1c giycn

COIJ·idt'ration in tintc':-:: of :.re'-:-:; and and 1hat thev slJa!l not lunc this

inf1idor1 upon' them. he will hanJ in hi~ iayour.

T.'1c SECRETA.HY FOll PunLIC L_\:\DS: During the last month there have been duzens of c:.-cs of 1wstpoucd rent \Yitlwut penalty for cc;tt]e men.

Ylir. PETERSON : I challenge the hon. gcntlctnan to show ono case :1n1ongst the hunJrcds I have Lrou'l·ht b?fore the depart­utcnt .since I have been member for Nor­uwnb"P where that C'Onces~ioL has been granted. If the hon. gentleman says w, I am pleased to have his assurance.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LANDS : Per­haps you were pnshing casee where it could nc,t be done.

Mr. PETERSO:\': I will give one case of a lady who holds the land. Her husband came ·from England anJ settled in the Dal!lla scrub on a perpetual lease. He was \Yorkmg sixteen or eio-hteen hours a dav, and lulled himself. Th~ farm then fell t~ his widow, and when the Gov<!rnmcnt repudiated the cotton guarar:tee this unfortunate woman wa:; unable to meet her land rent, and she appealed to the Government for help. The Government ~aid, "\Ye will gtYe you help, but you will h><vo to pay a 10 per cent. penalty." Other GoYcrnments have dont> this.

Mr. I-IARTLEY: When did the Government repudiate their cotton guarantor?

::Yir. PETERSOX: I am prepared to dis­cus,, that on the Estimates for the Depart­ment of Agriculture. I have already referred to that matter. The ::Yltmster asked for a specific illustration .where tJ:ere had been any hardship. There rs a case m pomt, and other Governments have done the same thing. But it does not follow that, because previous 'Governments n1ay have made 1111S­

takcs in land settlement in that way. what­ever the tenure may be, the present <;Jovern­n,ent shoul-d persist in them. I .smcerely trust that in this great scheme, winch. rs propounded by the Government. and whrch the Government expect to do .so much to build up Queensland, there \\'Ill be some little> sympathc shown to the settlers •,-, ho mav be down and out because of drought cDn'ditions. \VhateYcr 1nav be said of tho Burnett area. it is like' other areas in Qncensland-it is a very dry one. It rs m the dry years that settlers suffer most, and for the fair name of Queensland. and m the interests of the settlers, let the Tlllmster say later on that he is prepared to incorporate in the Bill a provision that those •:·ho hold perpetual leas~s shall be given consrderatwn per medium of the. Land Court, or e;·en per medium of the Mtmster. I am quttc pre­pa.red to trust the Minister to give a fair 1

and. square " go. n

The SECRETARY FOR Pc:BLic LAXDS : Y on could not put that in the Bill. Each case ha-. to be dealt with on its merits: you could not make i£ general.

Mr. PETERSON: The majority of cases in which consideration is asked for are cases oi hardship. Men or women are not prepared

[_] l SEPTE:\IBER.)

,.,) lo:-.e their laud or haVt'' it tak('li v.-irhout 111al.:iug f'\Tl'.\' attL'lll~Jt tn r·on!mitnu.:nt:-;. Tlw ::\lini _Loon that tlw CrTwn i~

:-r·o1u thcn1 ln•'t't fht'ir 1hi:-: aftL~r-

t landlord. ! ::.!,'0 so far <l"- :- 1\- thar llJJdL'l' (·ertai11

it ihc b<··t lnmllord. but until that b n·nun-ed 111 the .interests (•f ::;l·t denlt'llt, thL' tt1 ('!'edit for tltPlr lnnd that the>y othel'\'>i~t' could.

Tho St::C'IU~'L\HY FOH PcBUC L\XDS: The Stnte can po:-:tponc tho."'l' thiu£:; ....

institution UlllL:Jt. TllO"'C~ nut g-ot the cn~dit, for one

}fr. l(ELSO: I\ri,·ato ln. titution'3 lwYe done ~D in thousands of ca:->0:".

The s~cHETARY FOR PrBLJ(' L\XD3: At 8 per CL'llt.

.Mr. Kn,so: Xot at 10 per ct·ut., anyhow.

:\Ir. PETER SOX: The :\Iinis!l•r saitl this afternoon that he JH cfcrn•d to trust the people. IV c are not asking to put freehold tenure into the BilL The hon. gentleman says that he is prepared to trust tlw people, and we say that the settler should be ITiven an opportunity of deciding whether he"' will ha Ye freehold or perpetual h1 ase. There is ncthing· wrong in that; and if the hon. gentle· men really trusts the settlers and trusts the people, no exception \V hate\ er ('an be taken to the fact of the freehold and leasehold tumres both being· incorporated in the BilL Thc horL gem le man sta tc•cl that a peqJetual Jc.asc JS Just as ,·ahwblc as a freehold. but the GoYernment's ovvn financial institution doe·'"' not recognise that dictnnl. I have had a yerv lal'ge nurnber of cases in connection with the Agricultural Bank during the last nin0 years. and I hu Ye found that. w hene.-cr a settler held a pieco of land in proecss of alienation ,,·hich he ·was convertlng year Lv vear bY a rental s:;stem into freehold tcnm:e: l10 co{!lcl ahvays <::ccurc an advance upon his land proportionate to the amount of money that he paid in rent. A perpPtual leasehold selector, howPYer, can onlv obtain a loan upon the improvements which are effected. The .-alue of his lease, either to himself or to a priYate institution, '' not worth a snap of the fing·ers. At the end of ftftcen years there is a reappraisement of rent in connection \vith a perpt'lual lease· hold

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LAXDS : Y cs, but he would not have that .-aluc under hcchold.

:\J1·. PETERSO::'\: I pointed out that in the process of alienation of his property into freehold the Agncultural Bank took into consideration and n1adc allov,·ance in propor­tion to the amount of ront that had been paid. l~ ne! er the perpetual leasehold tt>ntue, you cannot do that. The hon. gentleman .said that leasehold is as .-aluablc as freehold.

The SECRETARY Fon l'cBLIC LAXllS : For production.

1\fr. PETERSOX: I am glad to hear that '•tatement. Let us take the reappraisement period. At the end of fifteen vca rs these lanch;. beco1no due for reapprais0n1('nt and th0 capital value has become enhanced b~cause ot the work of the settler.

:Ylr. FOLEY: That is not right.

:\fr. PETERSO='J: Through the exercise -of his brain and muscle and bv his hard li'Ork for all ~hose years the settler,has created that immense value.

Mr. FoLEY: He is allowed for it.

the it thl' :1:ten!sts

nut do it. FOl{ PcBLlC L_\:\IJS: Do

Land Co:ll't doL:, 11ct Vtkc

::\Ir. l'ETJ~:nso~: Bccnn.-.,e tlH' d Court <loc•s not ciccal \Vitlt that aspect: at I arn sho\'-'il!g a ft'\Y anmuuli,~s >d11fh. if O\'Crc:mno

J fHr ;::s the sottkrs are t'OllCC'l'llcd, \Yould mcJ;:l' the Bill a gTc'nter ~uccess-a greater wccc·s than the .:\linister intends it to be.

The ::'ccm:TARY Fon Pt:Buc LAXDS: I jntcnd it to be a ~ucccss.

i\lr. l'ETERSOX: I am sutisfted oi that. i,Ie. Cor.Lrxs int~rjcctcd.

i\Ir. PETERSO::'\: I do not thinll: that the hon. member for Bowen veil! stand up for settlers under the perpetual leasehold tenure being pcnali~cd 10 pPr cont. on arrears of rent. The hon. n1cmbor son10 time ago raid that he beJie,·cd in land being given to the people. I agr0e \Yith him. I go so far as to cc ay that it is not the rent from agricul­tural land that helps the State. but the pro­duction from it. An:~ policy that v ... il! bring about increased production and huge land settlement mmt also take into consideration the qne<tion of markets. \Vhere are the markets for the produce of all this land?

The SECRETARY FOH PrBLIC LA)[DS : Free­hold ienuro does not get oYer that difficulty.

7\Ir. PETERSO.N: I agree with the :\Iinistcr. .N o1· will perpetual leasehold. But the fact remains that in any big land settlement s,·heme markets must be taken into consideration. Th0 hon. gentleman drew <.. very rosy picture of a place in my elec­torate near St. Lawrence, where u land­holder had bought up a number of surround· ing selections. I know something about that locality. Owing to the land tax-Federal and Stato-Mr. \Vright, the owner, sub­mitted that property to Mr. J. M. Hunter, when he was Secrctarv for Public Lands-4.000 head of cattl~ an"d 32.000 acres ol free· hold-for £32,000; and bullocks then wero worth £12 10s. a h0ad. 'There \vas a glorious opportunity of taking the land from the bloated capitalist at a price far below its con1!llercial Yaluc and letting it out under perpetual leasehold. \Vhen the hon. gentlc,­rnan qnoted the i]lu,tration he shonld haYe g-one farther and said that the Goyernmont had the opportunity of ucquiring the whole of the estate at a low price.

The SECREnRY FOR Pt'BLIC L.I::\'DS: I was showing how the freehold tenure broughi about the accumulation of large areas of land in the hands of one holder.

J\Ir. PETERS'ON: I haw shown how the hon. gentleman could ha.-c converted it into perpetual leasehold. The Minister might alw haY!' said that on the adjoining- property­Clairview-the leasehold svstem has not been such a success. \Yhy 9 ,

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC' LA~DS : It is poor country. It was not selected as agricul­tural homesteads.

Mr. PETER SON: The GoYernment had a glon'ous opportunity of converting the WaYerley holding into perpetual lease, and

Mr. Peterson.]

960 [ASSE11BL Y.] Lai<tl ScUI!imwt Bill.

th .• ,. c<•uld haY<' gm the whole of rhe 32.000 arr~·s fur nothing. because dw bullocks at that time were rJono \Yorth the price.

ThP SECRFT.ITIY FOR PcBLIC LA::-;D~: \Ye haYc plcEty d bullock'. (Laug·hter.)

:\lr. PETERSO:'\: Yes. I know that the Go,·,·rnmcnt haYc. I do not ''ish to labour the questio:t, but I hope the }linister will tn to make the few little alterations I haYe su.tq;:r-sh·-~..1 so as to n1ake the schen1~ a succ·cs~:. and tba t he v.-ill nc't countenance 111 any ·way penalties such '" settlers under perpetual lca,d>old in other di,uict lun·e had infiictell upon rhcn1.

}lr. CORSER (Burnr tt): I am wry dad so n1nch intcr\'~t ha_. been taken :in this 1~1ost import.:Lnt question .. be-cause on the tenure, l claim. the mcccss or othenYise of the Cpper Bumctt and C 11licle land settlement schemo dcpf'Ilds~ I-laying had son1e experience as the owner of an agricultural homc,tead. I know the adYautage'S of that tenure as com­pared \Yith perpetual leasehold. and I thi'!k the GoYcrnrnent wdl haYe some <hfticulty m l!ivinu a~ly rca;;.on::; for their preference for iwrpctual ·lea<cholcl agaimt a system which pr0\·idr.s that the ~ettler eventually bcconlPS the nwncr of the freehold for half a crmYn an acre payable at the rate of 3d. an acre pei' anuu1n for ten years. HaYc the Govern­men! proYided in the Bill any sdteme which !:-; rnore Q"Pncrou~ or ea.sicr or 111orc bf'n,-,_ r,.-i .. l to . tlw intending settler than that on thncd by tbc an1CIHln1cnt '!

The S~! RET\RY FOR I'rBI.ll' LA);DS: \Vhat ahnut the wnnd,•rful fertility of the land:

:..Ir. Ct)}181-~~n: The ho:1. !lcnth'nlan talk:3 q lJOnt the fertiiit .. of the "Cpp.er Bunwtt lancl Ulld tht'll he lll'Ol1G~CS to suvply fertiliser anJ l!in' the -0t ler a perpetual leasehold. \V hat ie tlw rcasou f.n· GoYcrBmcBt member,; adhering to th0 perpetual lca~c pollc:v? It i~ not bC'cau~e the atp(1ll!1Cnt adduceJ b"" the tl]1po."ition again:'t it is not g·ood enoufdl, Ol~ t!:at tlw proposal to grant land that \Yill hecomp freehold to all la.ndk<s men at 2e. 6cl. p('r acre is not the bt~s.t :::.ysten1. It is bclaus.o it has been laid do\Yn iu the platform of the party th<tt in off,•rinr; themselves as eandi­dates for election the~· must sign their willingness to support the planks of that platform. If GoYernment nwmbers would a.dmit that, wo would get oYer a lot of tho difficulty.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt;BLIC LA;;;Ds: Do You support the phnks of the Farmers' party·:

Mr. CORSER: The Country party.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LAKDB: Do you support the planks as laid down?

::VIr. CORSER: Yes: I helped to lay them down. The planks.of the Country party plat­form have been instituted by the desire of the fahners themselYes, whereas this plank dealing with perpetual leasehold has been placed on the Labour party's platform at the instigation of the industrialists who never intend to go on the land themselves. Whom should we get to say what land tenure our lan<l settlers should receive? Who < hould be the bettPr judges as to the most succPssful tenure in the interests of the edtlers-the industrialists in the city who set down in Lonvcntion what the !arid tenure sha 11 be, or the farmen themselves sitting VJJth th0 Countrv party in delegation trying to put forth I heir own ideas as to what is

[Mr. Pctason.

the better in the interests of the State and t h0111SC I q!S '?

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PrnLTC LA::\DS: Dicl the (-nitcd lJarty agree to the freehold tenure?

}fr. CORSER: The :'\ationalist party agree rhar there should be optional tenure. They bclieYc in freehold, and every sensible party :1nd cYery reasonable-minded 1nan ,hould <1urec \Yith fn,ehold tenure. I think tlHc :\liui~tel' himself agrees with it. I think th<' Prl'mier agrees \vith it. I think they both agr .. e that the freeholcl sntem that we are askiBg for is better than ° the perpetual leasehold system. They do not deny that. But they bave to be guided by the planks of the platform of their party, and that is what 1 am complaining about. I am complaining about tlwsc maehine politics that the farmers han• to l1e .'ubjedcd to in taking up their· land to~dav.

An 0PPO.SJT[0::\ }1£:\lBER: The Premier has a freehold.

:\fr. CORSER: I do not object to that, but we should allow the other fellow to have a. little bit of freehold, too. The Government, when thcv wanted their fortification on tho hill to be. safcgnarclccl and wanted to giYe to their ow11 Cpper IIou~e and their ovvn Par­lianlt_)nt 1Iou:st1 ::;:..ornc sort of land ten1Hl\ gaYC that ParliamcBt, the Trades Hall, free· hold tcmnc.

The CHAIR}lAX: Order!

::.1r. CORSEH: I will not saj' that again, :\lr. Kirwan. r.Lau£;hter.)

Tire CHAIR:\lA:\": If the hon. gentleman t\)l ~. he· wlll tind that it "Will be very f:Crious for him.

:llr·. Ct IH.SER: That is probabl:v so. l >hall nd attempt to offend or insult such a hi~·h in.:.titutioll again

"The CHAIR:1L\:'\: Orclcr!

}It·. CORSEH: I think you will agree that ,.,-hat \Ya~ c-.-::se:1tial for tho~e people is just a~ {':-srnd:1.l for the 1nan out::;idc. 1:-Ie has not gc·t a lJig voice to s1wak for hirn on the hill. H,, ha' no big Trade' Hall. Surely he should haYc f.ornc rjght within his 0\'"11 Council of ~\griculturc. I a.'k the Minister now, vchc-tlwr the GoYcrnmeut consulted with tho Council c·f Agriculture os to the tenure they desired for settlers on this land? The Premier· wrote a letter clnring the election campaign in which he said to the farmer, " You have thr· brains, you haYe the punch, and you haYe the backing. It is for you to say what you want, and \Ve will givo it to ~\'DU.''

Tho SECRETARY FOR PrBLJC LAKDS : Why do not some of them get into Parliament?

Mr. CORSER: We have some of them on this sid0. The Premier with his own hand wrote me a letter as a farmer. (Opposition laughter.) He saici, "You as a far·mer have the right to initiate."

The SECRETARY FOR Pl·nuc LA);DS: No ono takes you seriously as a farmer.

}h. CORSER: The hon. gentleman takes n1e seriously as a farn1er~' representative. He will take the farmers in, when he is not giYing due consideration to the desires of those who are engaged in these industries.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : You arP a grazier.

::VIr. CORSER: I am not. I own no graz­in(; land. and nn·er have. r· own an agri­cultural farm and an agricultural homestead, ar:d thnt ;, what I am now <tdvocating for

Upper Bumc: and Callide [ll ~~~::'"Z"RC:R.] Land :<,'tlement Bill. 861

•omeone else. I h'tve secured that for mvself, and by exp<erience I find that it is of value ~o me and that it is a good thing to offer to other men when the:v come along. There­fore• I am advocating that the freehold prin­ciple be incorporated in the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LA);DS: Does that help you to get inte Parliament?

:\1r. CORSER : I do not want <my such help to get in. \.Ye are not saying anything that w!ll help us to get iPto Pat!iamc•1L \Vo ""nt to eee legislation enacted which is going

to lwlp tlw srottler in the ·cpper [7.30 p.m.] BurncU to make g-ood; and_ if

the ,ettlcr cannot make good, the State cannot do eo. If we do not give a reasonable tenure, how ca.n we get rhe best from the man on the land? Surelv I have " right, as the representative of the whole of this·[arge area, to say what is best for the whole of that district!

The SECRETARY FOR Pl'BLIC LA:-iDS : You have a right to say it.

Mr. CORSER: I have a right also to sav that. as the Premier has built up the Council of Agnculture, the GovernmeJJt should give that body the right to say whether the tenure of these lands should be freehold or leasehold. Have the Governmeut asked the opinion of tnc Council of Agriculture on this question?

Mr. CLAYTO);: It conflicts with their polic:·; they are not game.

:\Ir. CORSER: It is claimed bv the Government that all matters affectit1g the man on the land should be placed before this org-anisation \\·hich the Premier has built up.

The SECRETARY FOR :fcBLIC LAXDS: \Vhy not snbmtt to the pubhcans the question of Low they shall conduct their trade?

:\ir. CORSER: That is a different matter altogether.

An OPPOSITION l\1£:\IBJ<.R: That is what !hey h;~ve been doing.

::V1r. COHSER: This is an industrial matter. The SECRETARY FOR P1.7BLIC LAXDS : Thev

reckon it is an intcrna.tional matter. ~

:\Ir CORSER: The industrialists should not draw up farmers· conditions anv more than tlw farmers should sav vvhat tools the tradesman should own. '

The CHAIRMAl'< : Order ! Order ! I hope that the hon. member will realise that the matter he must deal with is the amend­ment before the Committee.

~:· CORSER: Yes. I will not let the Mm1ster drag me off the subject again. It 1s the platform of tho Government party--

The CHAIRMAi\ : Order ! Order ! If the hon. gentleman makes that stutement a.gain, I will order him to resume his seat for tedious repetition.

Mr. CORSER : I was about to refer to the statement made by the hon. member for Rosewood. I·will put it in another wav. The hon. gentleman claimed that the old' svst~m of land settlement proyidecl for large ·,reas of land coming under the ownership of one person, and that it permitted the banks to ecufiscate the land of the farmers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That is the effect of it.

Mr. CORSER: Yet the State Advances Corporation-last year held 156 farms. The Corporation also made a profit of £5,500 last year, and has made a profit of £86,000 since

1923-3 0

it was initiated. What is the sin of the pri­vate bank is the sin of a Government insti­tution, which was founded to deal in a ]er.ient way with the producer.

The SECRETARY FOR PcnLIC LANDS : How n.uch did the Corporation lose Oil its trans­actions?

:\fr. CORSER: It did not lose at all. It rnav have lost in individual cas€'s. but it nwde a profit on the whole of its transaction• f<r the year of £5,500, or £86.000 sin<:< its creation. The hon. member said that, if the Uovernmcnt '\verc to take over certain free­holds it would be 'equal to confiscation. It is not so. If £he freehold is large enough to be valued at £20,000, an Act of Parliament provides that that land may be secured by th0 Crown. The whole of the freehold of the land embraced in the upper Burnett and Callide Land Settlement Bill wa-> secured under th:1.t Act. That Act was simply intro­duced for the purpose of taking over land v1dued at £20,000, so that it will be seen that the Government can do anything. If the people are able to make large profits, as hos been stated. there is machinery on the snctute-book to-clay to take over land which is required for any other tenure.

:VIr. W. CoOPER : You ha vc forgotten to tell m that the Government have to pay com­pcusation for land they resume.

Mr. CORSER: The compensation is decided by the Government.

l\Ir. vV. CoOPER: By the Land Court. Sir. COR SEE: The owner of the land f[Oes

to the Land Court to defend himself a.nJ to <·ndca.vour to increa.se the compensation. The Government decide the value, and th" owner <.iln go to the Land Court, ii he likes, to o ppeal for justice.

l\1r. \Y. CooPER : T,he Land Court decides the value.

:\[r. CORSER: The Government. fix their value. The hon. gentleman also referred to the Act passed~ in Xew Zealand, and said that ::\' ew Zealand was compelled to do certain things. New' Zealand was tho first ceuntry to adopt extensively the system of perpetual leasehold, but, as soon as they secured enough settlerc under perpetual lease­hc Id, those settlers demanded a rever,ion to the old freehold conditions, and they have it in existence to-day.

Mr. W. CooPER: W,hy did the;r demand it?

Mr. CORSER: Thev demanded It at the polls, and that is ho\v they got it. That is how they will get it here. The Country party wanb to give settlers land at 2s. 6d, an acre. \Ye want to make it possible for this land to be selected under the old homestead ('Onditions-that isJ at 3d. per acre for ten years. Could you have anything mD"re lenient? It is preferable that land should be offered at a small rental and low cost than in attaching to landless men the per­petual leasehold system of tenure, which provides for a reappraisement every fifteen vears, and under which system the rentals do not accumulate and cannot be considered as assets on any occasion by any of the banking institutions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Did you do that with the Western lands ?

Mr. CORSER: I am speaking of agricul­tural lands. Agricultural lands are available as agricultural homesteads-the Government are not going to include grazing lands under

Mr. Corser.]

Upper Bar~telt anrl Callide [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Land Settlei!!elll Bill.

this an1endrnent. Agricultural fanl1:3 are pro­;·idccl for under the Act up to 1,280 acres from 10s. an acre payable in thirty years, but in the first twenty year:c 5s. an acre is paid. The selector then has ton years in which to pay the otlwr 5s. If those conditions are not r·:asonable enough, it i~ up to the Govern­ment to Sfle if they can offer them conditions which will be better.

The SECRETAHY FOil PUBLIC LA~DS: You can offer them the moon, but you crtnnot give it tD them.

Mr. CORSER: If the Government dD not accept Dur amendment to allow the selectDr to select land at 2s. 6d. an ·acre under the homestead selection conditions, I would sooner that they gave them the land than .offer it tD them as perpetual leaseholds. I would sooner see the landless men given free­hold and be free men than be tied down under perpetual leaseholds.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS : Who would bo responsible for giving that land a way-the Minister? He wDuld be over­whelmed with applications.

:vir. CORSER: I would sooner see the Government give it away than have it selected under the perpetual leasehold tenure.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA;<DS: Under an open ba.llot 9

Mr. CORSER: Never mind about altering the Bill in that rE"gard. All the conditions of selection are contained in the Bill. The number of acres of land selected under the regime of the present Government is about 5.000,000 acres loss than the area selected in the seven-year period prior to their coming into office.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! That state­ment has already been made twice.

Mr. CORSER : I will not make it again. (Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAK: Order! Order! While I have no desire to restrict discussion on an important matter of this kind, it is not necessary tD indulge in tedious repetition, and I am not going to permit it. The state­ment made just now by the hon. member for Burnett has already been dealt with by the two previous speakers. I am not going to allow him to repeat it and deal with it in the same way. He is entitled to open up fresh ground.

YI:r. CORSER: Mr. Kirwan, I think you will agree that, considering that the Govern­ment have not proved that during these last seven years their tenure has been generally accepted, it is a fallacy for us in this big schenw to introduce the same system without providing something that the people whD v. ant to go Dn the land wish to introduce themselves. All we ask for is that the Government shall make available land Dn conditions under which settlement has pro­gressed in the past, and that experimental legislation shall not be introduced to the detriment of the farmers of the Upper Burnett and Callide districts, and, what is more, to the detriment of the State. That is the reason for the amendment, and the reason why the Opposition are determined to try and bring the Government to their senses and bring aoout some reasonable con­ditions similar tD those advocated under agri­cultural homesteads, when land was available at 2s. 6d. an acre payable in ten years.

[JI.(r. Corser:.

Mr. BliLCOCK (Barcoo): I have no desire to record a silent vote on this question, as it involves one of the biggest principles that w-2 have to consiUer in our p'olitical life. It is obvious, from the speeches of hon. member.,, O}Jposite, that their arguments are actuated more by political expediency than by fore­thought or reasonable sagacity as to w4at the future may contain. The hon. mcJuber for Burnett ha·s said in effect that they will me the organisation that we are abollt to create in th~ Burnett for tho purpose of defeating us at the next elections. That is a political bribe of the worst possible kind.

Mr. MooRE: For goodness -,ake, do not talk about that.

Mr. BULGOCK: The hon. member for Aubigny need not be proud of his association witl1 that particular matter. The hon. mcm­bm- for Burnett desired to know why we believe in leasehold tenure as opposed to free­hold. Unfortunately, the debate, so far as hon. members of the Opposition have contributed to it, has not brought out any of the principles for advocating adherence to either the lease­hold or freehold tenure. ·without entering into any academical discussion on the. ques­tion, I would like to draw the attentiOn of members of the Opposition to the fact that on four different occasions the Government have appealed to the people with this lease­hold principle in their platform, and on those four occasions the people of Queensland have endorsed that principle. The hon. member for Burnett suggested that this principle was laid down at the Emu Park Convention. Possibly, the principle was laid down at one or other of our conferences, but the fact remains that it was subject to the endorse­ment of the people, \vho endorsed it on four different occasions-a unique and significant fact so far as Labour Administration is con­cerned in Australia.

Mr. KELSO: You did not get a majority of the people as a whole.

Mr. MOORE: How many seats have you won where tho leasehold tenure is effective 9

Mr. BULCOCK: To-day, we hold oyer: pastoral seat that there is in Queensland, and in the main the leasehol-d system is the system that obtains in pastoral areas.

Mr. MooRE: You did not answer my ques­tion.

Mr. BuLCOCK: A few years ago a Goyern­ment that held the reins of office before this Government came into power bartered away a lot of that land for 10s. an acre, and to-day there is no groa ter menace than having those rolling expanses with their Mitchell grass, inchrding Barcaldine Downs and other coml­try, bartered a way for 10s. an acre. If hon. members opposite stand for that sort of thing, it simply proves that they are going to sacri­fice the future for the expe-diency of tho prC3ent. The leader of the Country parhc sugge.;ts that tlw J\ilinister stateci the posioral­istS pay la.Ed tax on the particular ho1d!ngs. That is due to the existence of the Labour Government; but let the Labour Government be defeated and wo shrtll then sec how much land tax those pastoralists will pay, and how soon hon. members opposite will receive instructions from the pastoralist class-the dominating class-to reinstitute the system of freehold tenure and reduce the land tax that the Labour Government have instituted on tho freeholds of the West.

Mr. MooRE: \Ve don't want anv instruc­tions; that principle is on our platform.

c·pper Bumett and Collide Lll SEPTE}IBER.j Land Settleme;d B "ll.

::\lr. BGLCOCK: The hon. n1ember suggests u:ure iu fa v;mr of the Crmnr dcpping on to 'lwt they do not want any instructions. \Ye a frrehcJd property. a!l know that the hon. gentlcrnen oppo;;;itc }lr. 1\:ELSO: I:; that ilC<'ording to Judge ha Ye to take instructiens fron1 their ,; bosses n Buekhou~t;? .outoide. (Opposition laughter.) ::\lr. BCLCOCK: I have quoted all 1

Mr. MOO RE: You have to take vour instruc- ir;tend to from that authont0

. aud if the tions from outsiJc. · hon. nwmlJcr will not accept rho quotation

Mr. BLTLCOCK: The hon. gentleman says he has his remedy. that members of this party have to c•lr. KEL80: The freehold land may be ta kt• their instructions from outside. Let me taken ouly for public purposes. iwt«nce one little thing· that occurred during Mr. B'l'LCOCK: \Yhen the hon. member ltle speech of the Secretary for Public Land><. for Cunningham said that the tenant has no Hon. members opposite are continually rio·ht to remain he overlooks the fact that reiterating that we take certain nebulous heb has a perpet~wl title to the land. under ir~structions frorn son1o secret conclave that the old svstcn

1 of freehold-the syston1

sits outside-the junta of. the Trades Hall or 1.nstanccd bv the lca,der of the Country wlr,>rcver it mav be Thev sav that we take · fh< <' iutnlCilOllS, and they ~eprove US for party-he saiJ th":t a man who took up a doing so, yet during the course of this debate freehold had a pair of. strong arms, a. mat­tiw hon. lllL'mber for Bm·neh gets up and asks tack, and a hoe. That 1s the freehold side of whv we do not take instructions from the the question as laid d_own by the hon: me_mbcr Council of Agriclllture. \Vhere is the con- himself. The other side of the questwn IS the si.;tc·•lcv of the '" vument? leasehold siJe, where the man has the full

· aseistance of the State Advances Corpora-Mr. MooRE: YoE created that council. tion and access to capital that he ."·ould not The CHAIRM/\:\': Order! otherwise have, and I know that 1f you put

. r - . · _. _. _ . . _thc_bv_o_sy_s_tems_si_de_by s1de, and said ___ JU.J:,-BD-LCOCI\..-.-I-thmk-tha.t m a big-ISSUB .. Hc>re is the one svstem where you may

n! tlns nature we might get a_way from these take np freehol-d lan·d, and you may have more or l,ess r:etty personalrtJes and look at stron arms and what few implements you some 01 tr~ lng Issues mvoll-ed. requi~e, and here is the other system where-

:Ur. :YioonE: \Vel!, get on to the agricul- bv you mrty take up leasehold la~d and get tnral lan,J. flrmncial assistance." I know whiCh system

is going to make the Gtronger appt'1l to the :\h. BULCOCK: The hon. member fo:· individual, and that appeal nndoubtodly IS

Cnnningham suggested that the lPasehold goin~ to lie with the leasehold land and not. tcnnn' takes a wa v anv reward that m a v with b the freehold. accrue to the farmer. I think these are his "'! did the.v not take it own words, ''You must offer them"-meaning Mr. MooRE: " 1y the farmers taking up the land-"some re- before' ward.'' The_ pri~ciplc underlying the leas•;- ::VIr. RGLCOCK: Figures have been il0lcl tenure Is th1s: We- do not say that anv quoted in this House to show that there has rcwncl shall be offered out of the land bu·~ been a decline in land settlement. That Is it shall come out of tht' products of the land. not due essentially to the fact that we have The products of the land are enJoyed by leasehold and do not have freehold. There the perwn producing-the man holding the has been a diminution in land settlement Ieasehold-but the exploitation and the incre. throurrhout the whole of Auskalra, and, as ment that is possible certainlv should not hon. gentlemen well know, throughout the accrue Ill the farmer. That is one of the, main wbole civilised world there has. been . a argument·' that can he a,dvanced in support tenclencv to leave the land. The mdustnal of the leasehold tenure. The hon. member conditions of the city have proved more for Cunningham also suggests that a selector attractive, and farmers' sons _have not been under the leasehold principle has no right to going on the land as th_ey did m the past. stay on his land. I think it was Judge Back- There is the great handicap of capital with house. one of the most eminent of our English highlv capitalised land values. ~ook at JUnsts. who laid It down that there was no Victo-ria. If the Secretary for Publre ;Lands -uch thing as an absolute right in freehold were inclined to give us the informatiOn, I property. That has been proved time and have no doubt that he would tel_l us that agam. from freehold Victoria he has re:en-ed many

The SECREHHY FOR l'UBLIC LAJ\DS: I have applications from people askmg to be in m.v hand now a letter from a person on a allowed to take up lef!sc:hold land un"!-er ;he freehold property who wants to get off it on Burnctt scheme. ·what IS happcnm!' m \ tc­to a leasehold. (Opposition dissent.) toria to-day? If a f~r~er's son deSil:.es to_go

:Y1r. BULCOCK: This principle of there being no inherent right in land tenure has bu~n prDvcd time and again, so that 1vhen the hon. member savs that the settler under lercsehoid has no rig'!rts the position is in no ~>av d1ffercnt from that oGtaininn· in con-nection with ireehold. ~

:.\1r. KELSO : It is.

:Wr. BULCOCK: I v·ill not accept the opinion of the hon. mem'ber against the Dpinion of one of our most en1inent jurists. There is no greater security in freehold than in leasehold, by virtue of the fact that the Crown may supervene at any time and remove a tenant from a freehold just the same as it may remove the lessee from a leasehold property. In fact, the odds aro

on the land-and this IS ~mly what Is going to happen in Queensland m year~ to come 1f• we allow the freehold to be remtro?uccd­he has absolutely no chance of domg so, because the capital value of farm_lilg lan~s is. too high. Take the Murrumrndgee diS­trict. whe-re you have to pay £6 and :[37 an acre for wheat land. \Vhy? Because m the Parly davs certain people were .able to get hold of t"hat land at a small ftgure, and they are continually preventinr; people. takmg up that land, unless it can show .a big proftt to the persons who had it prenously ..

Mr. EnwARDS: There is no truth m that. Mr. BULCOCK: I un.derstan<! the hon.

member came from Victorra. and 1f he would give the Committee his confidence I ar;r pr~­parod to say that he came from V 1ctona

Mr. Bulcock.)

·cppcr Barne!t and Callide [ASSE}IBL Y.] Land Settlemenl B ilt.

bccnu~c he could not got land there. Every­body who cannot gd land in Victoria, and dcsir._ · to get land, gravitates to Queensland.

Mr. EDWARDS: \Yhy did you come here?

).fr. Bl!LCOCK · I ca.me here because Quee'1sland i- a bett0r Slate than the ono in which I was born, and the hon. membel' no dDubt C.1n1o here for tl1(.' s:une reason. There has bccu a quc:-1 :on raisr.d in rega.rd to pro­ductivity in this .direction. vVe all know !hat lan<l will produce just as much under Li1< leasehold >'>stem as it will under the froe­l•old system. 'rhc hon. member fol' Shnley spoke of the glorious prosperity of the Heli­t1on district under the freehold tenure. :!\ia.ny of us have been in the Helidon district. We have passed through it many times, and I have not seen any greater prosperity or any lesser prosperity there in consequence of the fact that there is freehold tenure and not leasehold tenure in the district. 'There has ht>en some question as to why we have not tried to ascertain the public attitude in t·egard to freehold or lea.sehold tenure. That was prevented by the. fact that lands along railwav lines were jobbed away by my friends cpposrte, and railway lines did not exist for th<' lands that were not jobbed away. The hon. member for Murilla, when speaking on this question, admitted tha.t there had been grave abuses under the freehold system.

The CHAIR:'IIA::\': Order! The hon. member for Murilla has not spoken in Com­mitke.

1Ir. B CLCOCI{ : I cxprC'lS !l1Y sulTOW for having rnentioned the hon. lncn1ber for Mnrilla and substitutt• the hon. member for :v'!iralli. (Laughter.) HP ii the Iron. memher to whom i refer. The hon. member for Mira.ni said there had been gntve abuses under the freehold svstem of land tenure. The point \Yf" have tO bear in n1ind in this ir_stancc is that a. sintilar S\s.tern nccc::;sarilv 1nust give sirnilar rf'.suHs) ~nd thercfor0, ii-t pleading for an ~xrenoion of that freehold principle of land settlement. the hon. montber 18 plet1ding for the principle of graft that was previouslJ in .operation in conseque:1ce of the freehold svstem that existed. There has been some taJk to-night about .;hare farmers, and 1t has been said that we shall not under the leasehold svstcm attract the best class of farmers to the ·area. that we propose to settle. What arc the facts of the case? The share farmer is in somewhat the sa.me position­although. he is not in as good a. position-as the selector will be under this Burnett scheme. Is the share farmer an inefficient farmer? Does the man who goes share­farming know loss about practical agricul­tural problems than the man from whom he rents his ground? Tha.t is not so. vVe know that frequently hon. members opposite who may be interested in share-farmin<5 allow their farms to be let on the share principle to efficient men-on the half-share svstem or !coo advantageous terms. The hon. members, too. n1ust adn1it that the State~ whcr(' there is the greatest amount of sharc-hrm­ing in existence are t,hose Sta.tes where the freehold system has been in existence for some cc,nsiderable time. The home of share-farm­ing is Victoria and Southern New South Wales. There is more share-farming in those areas than in th8 rest of Australia, simply because the individual cannot gain access to lrcnd, and necessity compels him to choose a definite wage proposition or a share farm.

[Mr. B1dcock.

ll0 accepts a share fann and \Yorks long h<mrs. becansc lw foolishly thinks lw may pcssibly get a lift, and he does not think of the exploitation that he is subjected to by the man '"ho holds the land. The prin­clpl<' w0 wish to enunciate is that cyery man who desire' access to land should have that access. The freehold system in opera­tion in the Southern States does not give that access; but the leasehold svstcm that '"" propose to continue in this ·state will give it Rnd will build up a virile community under the settlement scheme that \Ye have in hand at the present time. It has been suggested that we desire to rack-rent indi­viduals who take up land. That is not so. The hon. member for vVarwick. bv wav of interjection, suggc,ted that \Ve could get. the same revenue from freehold as we could get from leasehold, and we know that to be cor­rect, because we may tax the freehold to yield a reYcnuc. Since that is apparent. and since it is further apparent that we can get the same return under a freehold system as under a leasehold system, it is abundantly clear rha.t there is something more than the finan­cial return to the Treasurv at the back of our minds in this matter. ·The thing at the back of our minds is a matter of principle. 1 t is the inherent right of the people to say that their land shall not be alienated from them or placed entin'ly beyond their juris­diction or control. The hon. member for Xundah, by way of interjection, inquired if the· rea.ppraisemcnt t!Ht will take place e ery Jifteen vears is not a tax on thrift. The ~~-~:;tern Of reappraisen1cnts is esentially not a ta.x on thrift bv virtue of the fact that n•appraiBemonts arc the assertion of the right of the communit::, and, if it happens to be in OJ•POf ition to the right of individuaJs, the g-reatc·r right is the right of the community, a.nd therefore the right that must prevaiL Therefore the hon. gentleman's suggeetion that reappraisement is a tax on thrift show& that .he ha.s a faulty conception of the whole t:i_Uestion that is at issue. (

Mr. KELSO: You tax the unearned i ncre­rrH:nt.

Mr. BCLCOCK: The unearned increment is not built up solely by the farmers them­selves by their efforts in opening up the

scrub. The men employed in the [8 p.m.] railways and the humblest citizen

in our State who requires a. pound of butter also builds it up by virtue of the fact that the unearned increment is due to all classes of the community. In a. settlement like this the unearned increment will be built up b:y the commodities which the settlers are producing, and which will be consumed in the State and overseas. There­fore the unearned increment should not accrue to the individual farmer, but to the community as a. whole. Tha.t being so, re­appraisement is the only honourable way in which you can get the unearned increment accruing to the community. Hon. members opposite seem to overlook the fact that the eommunity me big shareholders in this scheme. In the first place, the land is the source of wealth, and the people consume the products of the ,Jand. If that is so, it is obvious tha.t the people should be a.llowed some say in the ultimate result of this scheme. The only way from the public point of view in which this land may be equitably settled without the fear of continual exploitation is to settle it on the leasehold principle. and I for one would not agree to remain with this

Upper Burnett and Callide [ll SEPTEi.\IBER.] 965

oidc of the House if the GoYernment accepted ihc• amendment which is being moYe<.l by the leader of the Country party.

:\lr. P AY:\'E (Jlitchtli): I ha ye listOJ:cd a.tlt'UtiYcl:.~ to the argun1ent5 u[ rnetnbers of till' Op]){)sition in reference to the fn•chold aul pPrpetual h•asehold tenure of land, and I ha'"'' fouml it difhcult to follow them. To nw perpetual leasehold with periodical re­appraisetnl'nts aud freehold tenuro with a laud tax are one an-d tho san1e. The argu­lllf'nts which haxe been used bv hon. rrwn1bers opposit·-, that settlement will" not take place '" quickly under the perpetual leasehold system as 'under freehold, are all moonshine. In the first place, land will not grow a better crop 1mder freehold tenure than it will under pcrpetmd leasehold. A man who has some <eapital when going on the land can use it for buying machinery and stock. If he had to buy freehold land he might not be able to find suflicient mouey and wouh.l have to go to a bank and raise the balance he Tcquired, paying interest on it for all time. I was born on a farm in a ver.y old wheat­growing district iu 1'\ew South Wales. 'l'he farmers there \rere paying interest to the bcmks for money which they borrowed to buy their farms, and when I ldt the district some of their children were still paying interest to the banks on loans obtained to cany on the farms. I do not hesitate to say tlw t in some of the older districts of 1\ cw 8outh \Yales a great number of the farms arc not out of the hands of the bank to-day.

One of our large;,.t primary industrie8, "\vool­a:rowing, is carried on on leasehold land, Und the lcs:3ecs have no hesitation in putting improvements on their holdings \duch are nn1ch n1oro expensive than the i1nprovmnents required on a £ann. Artesian bores are sunk on those selections and beautiful homes ('re-c:tcd. Un :::·ome of the small graz1ng pro­perties in Central Queensland £10,000 ha·­bccn ,-pent in improvements. It would be a good thing for l~uconsland if there had never lwcn an inch of land alienated in the State. I heard the late Hon. J. T. Bell express that opinion, and, strange to say, his father bdorL' him said the same thing. No ono ~oulcl claim that either ~ir Joshua Peter Bell or his son was a Labour man. .Any thoughtful man \vho gives this question honest considera­tion must admit that it would have been a \"L'ry good thing for Queensland if there had noyer been an inch of land sold by the State. Loc:k at the enormous revenue we \vould ha vc b<~Pn gcttiug fron1 city properties in that case. \Ye would have been abk to "'-Ldo;_H. the single tax proposal. I httve heard J:on. me• m bns opposite compare the system 11ndcr this Bill with tlw original system of taking up land a i 2s. 6d. an acrL'. I \Vould ask hon. members opposite l1ow nu1ny of the men who took up land at 2s. 6d. an acre arc on it to-day. \Yhen the:; took up land at 2s 6d. an ac1·e thcv \YCre isolated frolll railways and had to ·"~·irugglc and Jive in the most crude manner and hang on to the land, and e\"entually. \Yhcn it paid them, they sold out tD ::-on1cbody cls0. A. great nutnber of the small holdings which were taken up at 2s. 6d. an acre haYe to-day fallen into the hands of one man. I am speaking from experience. Very few of the old pioneers in the agricultural industry in Queensland who boc1ght land at 2s. 6d. an acre are on .that land to-day, or their children either. You cannot compare that system, under which a man and his family went into the

bush many miles away from ~he r,ailwai·· with the sntem pronded under tms Btll. Thts IS the be t propo,al I haYe seen brought m the House to settle people on tho lan~ and give thmn a good start. \Ye say ~hat railways at~d roads should be butlt, and that a certam amount of moncv should be gn·en to the settler. \Vho has· the right to own ~he land except the people of the State "1 1he land of a countrv is the only natural asset It has got, and O'ncc you bring aDout a systern under which the land can b<J taken up by. a few individuals the rest of the commumty arc dependent on them for cxtstence.. The freehold tenure has been the curse of Aus­tralia. I ha vc bDcn oyer a good many of tho StatL'S, and han• found that the. freehold svstc1n in some of the older StntE3 IS a cu~·se t; the man on the land. A ridiculous prt?e per acre has to be paid by th_e oPltlors m 1'\ew South \Vales and VIctona fm· land. Land was originally taken up at 2s. 6d. an acre, and some people bought up the blocks whcreyer possible and accumulated a lot of farrns, and arc far1ning it out to-da~·. to unfortunate 1uen with \YiYes and fan1rhcs. 'l'no'c landlords do not show any conside~-a.-1 ion- for the fal'lners in connection '-'"Ith droughts and pests.

Is it likely that the Government would {lUt men off the land if they wore meetm& ~vith bad times 'I Is it natural that a. Mim.ster of the Crown of whatever shade of politiCs would put them off the land u_nnecessanly, because we know that the land Is only valu­<tble when it has people on it? In the na,m~ 0t ('Ollll1l'l!1 1.'3('ll~C' what would bP the gorH, or rut ling one class of persons off tho land and putting another class on It? I vcntur~ to sav that the only man whom the lYhmster w~uld put off the land would be the man who was absolutely unfitted tom.ake a success upon it, and I think that the Mmister would be perfectly jnstified, if he saw that a man had tW itJfcntion or no poss1hlf' chance of waking a success of his farm under the -:ery liberal conditions given to him, of sayi';'g, " \Ye shall have to get rid of you and give somf,body else a chanc0." l repeat-beca~e I believe that vou cannot say a good thmg too often-that' it is a pity that an inch of land was ever sold in Australia.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS (Hon. V>. McCormack, Cairns): \Ve h~ve now been something like four hours debatmg this question. The case for freehold has been well stated by hon. meP1bers on the other side and I cannot. seo that any good J'('sult can' bE~ ~('l'YN1 lJy continulng a de-bate which really should have been concluded on the second reading. There arc. some. very iwportant principles in t~e Bill wh~ch I would like discussed, and, 1f we remain all thu time on this clause, naturally many important que,-tions will not be considered Inter on. I thercfon would ltko hon. members to conclude the debate as early as possible, in view of the fact~ that on other portions of the Bill there JS a chance of n.mt'ndment, where it is not a. question of policy. On this matter the Labour party ha\-1' their polic:- and the Opposition have their policv and to reiterate the same old argument h'onr after hour will not get us an~·wherc. I ''.ppeal to hon. mr:mbers to let us get along. I ha ,-e no desire to burke discussion. but I would like to have oaoh portion of the Bill dealt with fully, so that vve nu1v havo criticism on other matters. I lucve Ji'stened to the debate, and there is no

Hon. W. McConnack.]

9GG [~pper Bumett aml Callide [ASSE:\IBLY.] Land Settlement Bill.

char:ce of the Government departing from their policv, the presence of which in their phtform is one of the reasons for thei1· being on this ,ide of the House.

:\fr. G. P. BARNES ( Warll'ick): Notwith­standin" the statement of the :Minister, no J;wre important que•tion could be considered than that raised by the amendment of the hon. memh•~r for Aubigny. I have listened ,,-ith gr1•at carP to the debate, which has been of, a singularly interesting character. No hnn. nlt'm bcr on the Government side has snccPcdcd in bringing proof that the lease­hold " -tom, c·it her here or in any other conntr:·. has led to the occupanc.v of the land Yet we are told that the whole pur­pose of the Bill is to effect the closer settle­nwnt of an area of approximately 3.000.000 a en". If the JHinister hc:d succeeded in g·"~,ng >ome proof that succc•ss \vas likely to aHPnd this great effort in the direction of land tlemcnt no one on this side of the H<•nsc; woulcl seek to interfere for one moment with the carrying out of that pnrposc.

Several hon. members conversing in loud tone'.

The ru AIR MA?\: I appeal to hon. mem­bers. if theY desire to converse in the Chamber, to· do eo in lmver tones. Other­wise it is difficult for the .. Hansard" staff and Press reporters to hear what is being sa id by the sp<·aker.

Mr. G. P. BAR:-.iES: I would sit down and listen to the :Minister if he could indi­cate that here or anywhere else some degree of success has followed the leasehold system of land tennrc; but no matter how far the investigations extend, it is not found that succr·ss has attended the policy of the Government. If the Government proposed to carry out an experiment in leasehold tenure on some moderate seale. it would be a different matter. Nor would one dream of asking that our vast areas in the west should be op0ned under the freehold system. I do not hclieYc that the land there should be alienated in large quantiti<'c, and we aro at. onP with the hon. member for Barcoo and othe-rs in that respect.

JHr. BuLCOCK: Previous Governments sold big- pro11crties in the ·western areas.

Mr. G. P. BAR:-JES: Yes. and I remember that· in my earlier parliamentary contests I blamed the Kidst0n or JV{organ Government --~I forgr·t which-for having sacrificed a very larc:c arn:t of country along the border line, antl I am to-day opposed to a repetition of tUJYthirur of thP kind: but 1 rlo :'av t1Hit, if ~.v<'. are to 0nrourn,gc -elo~cr settJcn1ent. if \VC a re to people the land. there is only one direction in which it can be successfully done, and that is bv giving the seitlcre the freehold of their land. I have had a great deal of ex]wricncp in land settlement. I had to do with the Darlinl'i Downs in the early davs when land was taken up under the freehold systPm at half a crown an acre.

Hon. F. T. BREXKA)']: What is it worth to~day?

air. G. P. BAR);'ES: It is worth a great de a! to~day.

The Svcm;TARY FOR PcBLTC LAXDS: How lone: is it since anv land was taken up nndPr that system? ·

Mr. G P. BAR1\'ES · I suppose twenty­fiyr year<;<

[Hon. W. JlcCormack.

Th0 SECRE'J',IRY FOR PCELIC LANDS : The l1on. n1en1b<"r for Burnctt 1vns trying to n1ake out that it· was selectc·d '"ithin tho last few years.

alr. G. P. BARNES: Xo doubt a differ­' nt condition of things has come in since 1hPn: but. although one l1on. n10n1b{T IYho sat down " little while ago indicat0d that some settlement had taken place under the GoYcrnmcnt p(,licy. nc.-crthiess much of the land I han• in mind would not haYo been settle-d had not thn selectors been able to get the freehold.

Hon. F. T. BREXN.\:-;: Along the Killarney line? Th(. got dw la11d ou a 11~11 yc·ar.~· Jc·ase.

Mr. G. P. B_\R:-.iES: The land along the I\::illarney line ancl thf' great areas of rich land on the slopes of 1 he ::VIa in Range and down to1.-ards the .-alleys, together with the Frecstone lands and the ::\laryYale lands, would never ha H' been occupied or cleare-d if the setrler.'; had not kno\Yn that the land was somo day to become their own. \Vhat applied there applied also to the Albert district and the Fa·;sifern district and any other place which you call vour attention to. The suc­ecss o( the betticment has been due to the fact that the freehold tenure prevailed.

The hon. member for Barcoo indicated that it was quite sufficient for the man to take up the land and to have what he pro­duced. He said that the product of the land belonged to the producer. but not the unearned increment. I say definitely that, if you dissociate the unearned increment from the effort of the farmer, then you are nor going to succeed in getting the farmer to go upon the land. The unearned increment belongs to the producer. I maintain that what they must produce is not sufficient in itself as a reward for the efforts that th~oy put into dw land. In connection with land settlement I know of no country where suc­cess has followed except where the land wa6 aYailable under the freehold tenure. \VE' know that in Canada land was offered under the freehold svstem. I am not sure whether to-dav the sanle rules and laws characterise the doings of the Canadians and the Ameri~ cans as were m cxistenee in the early days. But in the earlier davs of land settlement th0 pcopling of the c~untry was considered of ffi much importance that the land was giYcn a\vay.

Hon. ,J. G. APPEL: The hon. HlC111bcr for Bowcn ad.-ocaterl the giving away of land with a land tax. to follow afterwards.

l\Ir. CoLLINS: Yuu read my speech again on the matter.

Mr. G. P. BARJ'\ES: In 1905 Sir H. Ride1· IIaggard was appointf'<l a C01nmissionpr to inquire mto the question of settlement in Canada. A clespateh was sent from Sir \Vilfrcd Laurier to tlw Commissioner. Sir H. Rider Haggard, reading-

" Despatch to Commissioner H. Rider Harrg-ard. stating that the Government of Canada \nil be prepared at any time to set asid<> ten townships (240,')00 acres) for the objects set forth bv the said H. Rider Haggard. Stating further that if the exneriment proves successful other lands will no doubt b(' available and that the Government of Canada is satis­fied that if a proper class of settlers is secured such a scheme as that propounded

[~pper Bumett awl Callide

by the said H. Rider Haggard ought to be completely 'successful. Expressing the hope of the Government of Canada also that th<' said H. R1der Haggard will be allowed to carry it 1o completion."

Sir H. Rider Haggard, in his book " The Poor and the Lund." states-

" I haYo omitted to state that I have carpfulh considered the nature of the tenure 'which could be given to land ot't! lers >vith most advantage to them­'elvcs and the greatest security to the authorities guaranteeing the Settlement Loan. There is no doubt that 1n some1 ways the system of perpetual leasehold >1t a fixed rent is attractive, especially if it could be coupled with a right to buy, since then the colonist is not burdened with the ncceesity of paying the pur­chase price of the land. but is only to discharge an annual rent.

" In countries where land is very costly this plan, therefore, would be worthy of consideration, as l!nder it all the settler's borrowed capital can be expended upon his !in' and dead stock. In other coun­tries, however, where land is cheap the argument in favour of leasehold is not so strong, while in Canada I am not sure that it would be allowed.

"My conclusion is that, on the whole, I agree with the view expressed by Mr. Secretary Wilson and give my voice in favour of freehold, wherever it is possible to grant that boon.

"That great investigator of agricul­tural conditions, Arthur Young, wrote 130 years ago of the 'Magic of Property.' \Vhat he said then holds true to-dav. Perpetual leasehold may be virtually ~s good as a freehold and cheaper to acquire, but sentiment must be taken into account, and, considered from this point d view, it does not look the same. The man who starts out to work a piece of land would like to know that a time must come when he will be able to call it his Yery own. It is because that is impossible that thousands of those who are employed in English agriculture are now deserting the country for the towns. \Vithout th~ nrospect of ownership. or, at the least, of becmning farmPrs on their own account, they ,,-ill not stay upon the land.

''I 1hink. therefore, that the title giwn to all settlers, at any rate in the British colonies, after thev have discharged their liabilities and naid the price of the land they occup:<·, should be freehold and no other.''

Further on, in referring to the Hon. J an1cs \Yilson. Secretary of Agriculture to the 1'nited States, Sir II. Rider Haggard states-

" I askcrl him what in his opinion would bc- the best form of tenure to give to such settlers. perpetual leasehold or freehold. He declared himself unhesi­tatingly to be in fayour of freehold, with which, in his opinion. no leasehold, how­evE>r lon~r and attractive. could possibly compete in the eyes of intending settlers. Th8 'pro~pect of acquiring a· freehold, he >aiel, would give the colonist something­to work for-wme object to be g-ained hevond that of earning- his daily bread. He "·as sure that if absolute ownership of the land occupied by such settlers

Lancl Settlement Bill. 067

could be assured to them within a reason­able period, it would prove a great incen­tive to exertion."

If we want to succeed with onr land sPttle­ment schemes >Ye must follmv on the lines of other countries.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PrBLIC LA:-;Ds : The ::\'lount ::\1organ Gold l\Iining Company, with their ,-aluable mine, g·ave up freehold fm· leasehold.

l\Ir. G. P. BARr-;ES: They might have had to do it.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLrc LANDS: Xo.

Mr. G. I'. BARJ\'ES: The whole object of tho amendment has to do with the gi,-ing a man the option. If a man prefers lease­hold, by all nwans 'Jet him have it; but. if he prefers freehold, then by all means allow him to have freehold.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC LANDS: You cannot have that option.

::\11'. G. P. BARNES: It is alrcadv in the Acts of Parliament. Hon. members' on this side are anxiol\S to see this great land of ours peopled, and we say that the Govern­ment are not going to succeed in proceeding along the lines indicated in the Bill, and that is why we seck so ardently the introduction of the freehold tenure in addition to the leasehold tenure.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LAKDR : \Yhy are we getting so many inquiries from Immi­

grants who wish to come out to the country to take up this land? ·

:Ylr. G. P. BARXES: I should imagine that the lure in the direction of the advance~ mcnt of money, as promised under this Bill, has a great deal to do with it. We are going

to have a very sad repetition of [8.30 )l.m.] what has taken place in regard

to other settlements in Queens­land. The men who made Queensland and. who blazed the track had nothing in their pockets at all. It. might be a very good thing to .subsidicc individual efforts, but if they are to be nursed from beginning to Pnd we are not going to attract people to this land of the character and type we want-the doss cf people who will develop the land in th,, ,;·ay we >Yant it developed.

The SECRETARY FOR Prnuc LAx ns : You IHmld not help them at all?

1\Tr. G. I'. BAR'\JES: Yes; I think it would be .-ery wise to snbsicliso the efforts o!' men. but to do m·erything for them is not going to develop 1he breed of men we want.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC LAXDS: The hon. '~10mlwr for Burnett was complaining that our conditions an~ not liberal enough.

Mr. G. P. BAR-:\fES: I di~ag-ree with him in thot ~ense. In that direction they are liberal. I am not in fa.-our of that induce­ment. If the verv best has to be made out of the settlement of our lands. the men must rut their very souls to the accomnlishment of their nurpose, and they will onlv accom­nlish their purpose if thev feel that to a lorge exteni' the unearned increment is to be their reward in so doing.

Hm;ouRABLE ME211BERS: HPar, hear ! Mr. FRY (lluri'pct): The Committee

rnmt be cnm·incecl nf the earnestness of the hon. rncn1ber fnr Warwick. His sneech was full of thoughtful matter. "nd matter which should carrv com·iction. \V'e reooQ'nise that the land is" the true asset of the State. and· that there can be no absolute title to lall{L

1lJr. Fry.l

'968 Upper Bumett a11d Callide [ASSE:\IBL Y.] La11d Settlement Bill.

and that all nrivate titles. whether call0d £r ,' -::-irnplc or +c,therwisc, are and n1u;3t be >.ubordinate to the public title. Freehold and ka,ehokl are pLtrely a matter of degree of O'lnwr~hip. and thP question which arises is t•lwlbor the inccntiYe is the came for ]ease­hold a it is for freehold. 'That is the point around which the· discussion reYolYQS. \Ye contend that the leasehold tenure in thi. State has not been J. ~ucccss so far as closer settlement is concerned. \Ye ha ye onlv to I ako the opinion and expressions by the 1\lilli>tor in regard to the soldier settle­rn<·nk Thcv were founded and settled on the lea<-cholCI tenure. and they have been admittc•d to be a fiasco. The settlers were assi,tcd in many ways, and probably assisted in m any respects that the ordinary settler _;uuld not bo ctssisted. These settlements werP unr!0r tho supcrYision o£ the Govern­ment. \Vhat is the result? We arc quite justified in going warily in regard to this scheme •1f settlement with respect to the Gpper Burnett. As I pointE>d out on the second reading of the Bill. we ctre not entin•ly opposed to tho leasehold principle. As a matter of faot. and as stated by the Sccrctctry for Publ'ic Lands, our policy is oplionrrl freehold or leasehold. That being the cace, it is just as well to make the posi­tion ven· clear that the leasehold tenure has been et failure in this State. Before we give our endorsf'ment to that tenure we "\Vant to be a~sured that it is going to be succeesful.

Question-That the words proposed to be inscrler! in clam'e 4 (Jfr. Jfoon:'R amend­,., nt) be so insertod~-put; and the Com­Inittc<> lliYidcd :-

Mr. Appel , :Harnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H. , Bell , Brand ,, Clayton

Corser , Costello ,. Deacon , Edwards , Fry

Kelso Kerr

AYr:~. 25.

1Ir. King , Logan , Maxwell ,, j{oore , Xott , Peterson , Robert~

Sizer , ;-;wayne , Taylor , Walker ,. '\Varren

Tellers: )Tr. Clfl.yton awl ::\lr. King.

XoE~, on. .'Mr. Barber Mr. Huxham

" Bertram Hynes Brennan

" Jones

" Bruce , Land

" Bulcock

" I.arcombe

" Carter "

McCormack

" Collins

" McLachlan

" Conroy , Payne

, Cooper, F. A. , Peasp , Cooper, W. , l'ollock , Dash , Ryan

" Dunstan , Smith

, Ferricks , Stopford , Foley , Theodore , Gildav , \Veir

" Gillie8 , \Yilson , Gledson , VVinstanley

" Ho.rtley , \V right

Tellers: 1Ir. }'(Jk~ llL!l :.\:r. :\lcLaelllan.

PAIJ;~:

AYe"-'fr. Yowles and J.Jr. )Jorg-'ln. NOes--::ur. n·ellington :tT!ll Jlr H.iJlJan.

Rc·,olved in the negative. Clrmse 4 put and passed.

Clause 5-" Public estate improvement work"--put and passed.

Clause 6-" A.d1·anccs to scttlcrs''-put.

[Mr. Fry.

i\Ir. CORSER (!Jurnrtt); I would like to point out that a couple of amendments have been rnisscd.

The CHAill:\1A:c-;: I must point out tD the hon. member that it is not my fault if an.v araendments have been overlooked. I gave an opportunity, when I put the clause, f<;n· hon. rnembers to tnovo anv amcvdnwnt. 1'\o ow· rose and I proceeded ...

:\Ir. CORSER; \Y c were hardlv in our place"' after the .cJi,-ision. I beg to "move the insertion, after the "·ore! "declare," in line 48, of the words-

'·In making such advances, the l\1inister shall carry out <tnd administer the State Advctnces Act in the spirit d0sired by Parliament. and he shall not be bound to cDnform to or be goyernod by any recrulations which he may deem. under th~ circumstances, to be vexatious or hampering."

The mccess of these land settlemenl OJwra­lions depends upon the leniency with which t hl' State Advances Corporation nukes adva.nces available. The State Advances Act is a good. ono, but unfr:Jl'tunately it is governed lJV r.•gulations which are contrary to the sr1irit of the Act and contrary to the desires of Parliament.

The SECRETARY FOR l'lBLIC \YORK~; \Yould you disallow the regulations?

J'vlr. CORSER; At present the State Advances ~\et is governed by regulalwns. and the selector cannot got the advances tb<lt Par­liament dictates. l'arliamenl has nothing to do with the regulations; the Cabinet make' the re~s·nlations. >Yhich are contrary to the spirit of the Act.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC WoRKS: They are not contrary to the opirit of the Act.

_:\Ir. Cf?RSER '· The Socrctan: f,~r l',>,thlic \\ orks >nil not g1ve anyone a fa1r go.

The CHAIR:\1AK; Order ! I hope the hon. member will addre's the Ghair.

Mr. CORSER; I am endectvQuring to do '''· but the Secretary for Public \Yorks is tr:;ing to ]pad me oft' the tr~>ck.

The CHAIR:\1A:.J; Tbe hon. m cm ber has been a member long enough to know that he sbould address the Chair.

:\Ir. CORSER; You will agree, Mr. Kir­wan, t:1at, if we arc placing settlers on this lar;d, it is csential that these settlers must hnYe adyctnces. The :\Iinister clai)1't'> that the average an1ount of tnoney applied for as an a chance is £200. The Bill provides, prior to c I a use 6, that the first cl uty of .tho settler is !o put water on the land. I£ thcr" is no "·atcr. it is provided that the Minister shall lutvc the power to put water there. and that be slmll have power to take anything- that the «ettler has as a sccuri tv. The settler has ~nly a perpetual lease, eo that the ;\Iinister ta kr·s a first mortgage over that up tD tho time when the ,cJ,·ance is made. The settlor l ben makes application to tho State Advances Corporation. and the security held by the Sccretarv of Public Lands becomes a second r~wrtgagc', >tnd the Corporation takes out a Erst mortgafie and carries on lhe business on behalf of the Minister. This is how the h1sincss of the ctdYances of the State Advances Corporation is carried on. It depends upon w.hether the settler has enough monev to get the land or not. The Bill pro­vides" that £1,200 can bo made available to Pach indiYidual selector, £300 at the rate of

Upper Bumett and Callidc [l l Sc:PTEMBEH.] Land Settlement Bill. 969

£1 for £1, yet the reg-ulations m'1kc• i' im­possible for one pei!D)' to be ar!vuncr;d £1 fnr £1, becau'" a perpetual lrcasdwlJ does nol giYe the tenure that is essential. arul th(' udortunate settler has not the monc•y to place improvem,;nts on thP lund to enable him to got the £1 for £1 advance. There is no provision for the £300 unspecified pur­pose·, ach·anco, an.d no guarantee whatever that the £1.200 shall be advanced at all. The U\'ernge amDunt advancud to ea.ch Sf'ttler during the Jast hYclYc nlonth . .; b·, rhc State Advances Corpora.tiou \vas £198. ·

The CHAIRMA::o;: : Order ~ I hope the hon. gentlernan is not going to n1akc a second reading speech. -

:\h-. CORSEI~: I want to impress upon the M•mster that, If t.hatstate of nffairs is ;£<>iilg to exrst under tlns Bill. Il wil! bu impossiblc fer the settlers to gel on. This amendment propose•. to bring about those things th~t we -de~ued In our second reading speccheo;;. I pomted cut .,-here the Bill \Vas faultv and -\:·e haye cyery right no1v to nloYe alollg the hnes then suggested. This is an e;;:.-,cntial amendment which wa:-; forc~hadowC'd in our second reading- spceche;;:,

The SECRETAHY POR PcBLIC L.\XDS: You are ttying to m"ke another Bill.

:\fr. CORSER : I. am not. I am trying to amend rho Bill as It stands. and to )live to th~ settlers the same provisions that Parlia­I•wnt provided they should havP. The Min­Jster knows that the regulations under the S 1~ate Advances Act are quite contrar\ to the; spirit of Parliament. and that t.he or>era­twns of the Corporation are detrimental to th<: best interests of the settler;;, and are not gcllng to act llp to the rviinistcr's claims. Surely the hon. gentlema.n will >tdll1it that (•ach settler sho1ild be provide;] \vith an e0w.ount of money. How much d0c;; he sav ·that amount should be' \Yhat sPeuritv wiil he have' The well has been placucl there by the Crown. for wh!Ch all the necebarv secur­lty can be taken. F.,ow much should ectch settler secure'! ~Will the ;\Iinister answer t;1at?

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLlC LAXD~: I will H nswer it v.-hen you sit dorYn.

:\fr. CORSER : He will not answer, yet he knows that the Sta.te Advance' Corpora­tion has not in the past advanced 1 he rrmount t'1at has becn essential. I move· thi; amend­I:.e_n~ in the hope of having an expre;;;ioH of c,pmwn from the l\Iinister as to whether the Government are going to do their dutv or not \Ye had ~oreshad~owed in a Governor's f!poech 1\YO Sf'SSions ago the admission of tht' Go­vernment that the Sta.te Adn.ncos Act required amendment.

Tlw CHAIR;\/IA::\1 : Orc:ler ; I hope the hon. gentleman lS not going to di,cnss the Statc Acivances Act unc:le;· this Bill. I cannot permit that.

Mr. CORSER: The State Ac:lvances Cor­Jx-rat.ion is called in b-, the Secretarv for Publi.c Lands. He is-.gc;ing to put tho.busi­ness m_to the h~nds ot t)'le C'orporation. He :·sked It under 1ts machmerv !o carrv on on hie behalf the adva.nces under that verv Act. \Y.hat we are complaining about is as to how t1w administration is carried on. I would not mind if another set of machinerv was set rtp to improve tlw advances. I would men­tion particularly that the Government ihem­'<clves said tbat the State Advances Act is Jtot carrying out tho bc•t interests of the sdtlcr as was desired. anc:l thLy proposr to

bt•ng in a rural ach 11nce sy,tem: to bring 111 sornc Dther a·dvance systt'n1 a.nd 1vip' out this one. ~While the Government intend to n,~c the Act it is up to us to 6£'C just how In 1 t he:o· are going to nso it. That is the :::-pirit of n1y amendtnent.

The SECRETARY FOR PL:BLIC LAXDS (Hon. \Y. ;yrcCormack, Cairns): This is a rcm2~rka.blc amendment. I do not know how th<e hon. gentleman proposes to express in an Act of Parliament the spirit of Par lia­rnent.

Mr. CoRSER: You can make the intention right in another wa_;.

The SECRETARY I•'OR Pn>LIC L\XDS: The spirit of Parliawent must have a. definite mPaning. Hovv· on earth anyone i~ going to judge or how any person called upon to administer the law is going to judge tlw spirit of Parliament is beyond me.

Mr. CORbER: You would sooner have in hampering regulations.

The SECRETARY FOR Fl'BLIC LAXDS: [ do not want to leave anything in; I am pxpressing· my opinion of what the hon. m• mbcr wants to put in. There is no busi­tlf''3s in such an amenrhnent, because it is impossible in an Act of Parliament to state thr' spirit of Parliament. It would be ridicu­lous in the extreme. The diatribe with which the hon gentleman has just concluded is against the State Advances Corporation. It has nothing whatever to do with this Bill or with the Department of Public Lands. The Department of Public Li1nds is not a money­lPnding institution. lt is not a bank. Tho State Advances Coq1oration is a banking imlitution, and is governed by banking rules and procedure. To include a proposal here to sav that the Secretarv for Public Land~ should make rules and regulations governing the lending business of some other dcrartmer:t would be ridiculous An amend­ing- Bill dealing with the State Advances Corporation is under consideration, and will br· introduced into this House bv the Secre­tary for Agriculture shortly, and the hon. g-entleman thcn will have an opportunity of stating his grievance and of amending the provisions of that amending Bill in accord­anc(• with the ideas of his party. I suggest to the hon. member that he withdraw this amendment, as it would be out of place in a Bill like this, which is a land settlement Bill. I have no control, nor do I desire any control. of the banking operations of the State Ac:lvances Corporation.

Mr. CoRSER : You are responsible for this settlement, and you should have some control of the finances.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Tlw amendment might be all right if I pro­posed to cstabJi,h a fund under this Bill to take the place of the State Advancet!l Corporation.

Mr. C:oRS!m: You said Cabinet would have given you one if you had asked for it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not want to be bothered with the money side of the business. The lending of monev is under the control of quite another c!Ppa;tmcnt. It requires individuals trained on quite different lines to the ofl:icers of thP L"nds Department. The r,mcndwent could Pot be inserted in the Bill. as it would be foolish. The hon. member surely does not propose that I superintend, control, and amend regulations that have been adopted. or amcnd an Act passed by Parliament and

Hon. W. McCormack.]

970 Clo~ure of [ASSK\IBL Y.] I'adial!lrl!tar;; Bar.-

eontrolled by another authority altogether. 1 car.not agree \vith .the amendment.

l\Tr. MOORE (Aubiyny): Whether the an1cudm0nt is a good amendment or not is rather bc"ide the point. The difficulty that we have at the present time is that the State Advances Corporation refuses to lend mone, in man:,~ cases to settlers ,vho require n1one:y:, and the Department of Public Lall'ds has had to guarantee the State Advances r~1rporation.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LA~ os: Under <'Prtain circumstances.

Mr. MOORE: The Minister knows that his own department has had to give a guarant"c and see that the State Advances Corporation lent money that was supposed to be lent by it under the spirit of the Act as P"''ed by Parliament. Unfortunately, as the Minister says. the State Advances Cor­poration is a banking institution and it refus0'~' to lend moncv on what it considers i,; a shaky security. 'Even under the guar­antee by the Department of Public Lando the cxpcrion'"e of settlers has been that there hn~ bPcu delay in securing the rnon0: .. ·, and petty harassing regulations are put forward by the State Advances Corporation which has made the settlers FO disheartened that they would rather go olsowherc and endea­vour to get the money. In this Bill the Minister goes out of his way to say that he will not administer the fund. All we want to get is that, \vhen the fund is available for settlers. there will not be heartbreaking delays. ·

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: :'\o banking institution could give the conditions I am giving for water.

Mr. MOO RE : Not for water; but the rest of it is to be administered bv the State Advances Corporation, and the Minister on the second reading admitted that the regula­tions and administration of the State Advances Corporation could be improved.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Thev a re going to be. ,

:Mr. MOORE: It is all very fine to sav i hey are going to be. \Ve want to see th~t the settler gets the money that it was iPtended by Parliament hE should receive without all sorts of harassing restrictions, and without having t0 wait till he gets upset and disgusted. I know the Minister has had experience of v:hat has taken place, and he knows thnt, when settlers throughout Queens­land have aeked for these advances there ha.vo been interminable dclavR. \Ve 'cannot understand it, rmecially when the Minister has guaranteed that the money will be all right.

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported progress. The resumption of the Committee was

made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

CLOSURE OF P ARLIAME~TARY BAR.

Mr. HARTLEY (Fitzroy). who on rising was received with "Hear, hears," said: I beg to move-

" That this House does not favour the concln.,ion arrived at by the Parliamen­tary Refreshment Rooms Committee to dose the bar at 8 ,o'clock p.m., but approves of the absolute closure of the refreshment-room bar for the Rale of spiritu-us and fe.rmented liquors."

[Hon. W. McCormack.

Before speaking to the motion, I want to thank the Premier for the opportunity he has given the House to discuss this motion and

to take a vote upon it, and also [9 p.m.J for his undertaking that the

motion shall be treated as a non­party one. (Hear, hear!) I sincerely trust that it will be treated as a non-party matter, and that we shall get a sincere cxpr~ssion of opinion from the members of the Homo. Before dealing with the motion, I would just call attention to an attempt to distort t hP rnotion a:-; it wa~ g·iycn notice of by 1ne i" this House on Friday night. I notic:e ihett in the paragraph on the question in !he .. Courir>r'' of Saturday last it is mrrdc tc rc·aJ in 1 his fashion~ ~

"In the Legislative Assembly last night :VIr. Hartley gave notice that on Tuesday he would move-' That this Houee doe& not favour the conclusion arriv< d at by tlll' Parlia.rnC'ntan.- Refn ~hment Roonl~­("iomnlittce to clo~cc the bar at 8 o'clock, but appron, of absolute closure of thE refreshment room for the sale of spirituous liquor.''

:;\I v motion said ;• of the rc•frc.,hmPni-roOiu bar," but that is just another example of the poor class of journalism in which that paper indulges in reporting matters in relation to this House. I can quite under&~a,nd the attitude of that paper, seeing that this ques­tion is a slightly minor question to the bigger question outside, and that that paper is being "·ell subsidised b ,· the Licensed Vict,1allcrs' Association for big advertisements. 0PPOSITIO~ MEMBERS : Be careful. Mr. HARTLEY: I am not going to !:>e

careful; I am just drawing the attention of people who believe in a fair, free Pres,; report to . this attempt to distort a motion moved in this House. The abolition or closuro of the bar in Parliament House is not a new question sn far as this party is concerned. As far back as 1905 in the Labour in Politics Convention a resolution to this effect was Inoved-

.. To secure ,obPr men as candiuatcs for Parliament and the abolition of the parliamcntarv refreshment Oar."

T·hat resolution '~as caTried by the conYention and put upon the platform of the party.

:Mr. MAXWELL: \Yhen was that'!

Mr. HARTLEY: That was in 1905, a few rears after the arrival of the Labour party. ~I'he real birth of the Labour party in l2tleens­land took place about 1891 or 1892, but it was not a real force until abouL 1905. The Labour in Politics Com·ention, two yea·r~ later, sitting in Rockhampton in 1907, carried tlJis nwtion, \Yhid1 was mO\·ed bv l'vlrs. \Villis of that city, who is now practically the mother of the Labour party, and I think the oldest woman in Labour in politics and always a staunch prohibitionist and tee­totaller. The resolution was worded in this way-

" That in the opinion of this eonve:'­tion the refreshment bar m P<trliament House should be aboli3hed."

I quote those two instances to show that very early in the history of this movement it was recognised that it was an unusual thing 1md not a good thing to have a private bar in Parliament House. where legislators were concerned in working in humanity's cause. In 1910 the late Mr. George Ryland carried a motion in this Assembly unanimously to

C'losllre of [ll SEPTlDIBER.]

a boli'h the parliamentary bar. He was only defeated in his object by the Legislative Council, whi<-h was then in existence. It was not until 1915 that the hon. member for lp5wich (.:'llr. Gfedson) moved a motion with the same obj cct in this As,embly, but as private members' business was abolished shortlv afterwards for the rest of the session a vote was not taken on the question, and it has remained till the present time again to ask the House to confirm the resolution of I hose people, whose action will be admitted to have bf.)Cll sound, 'vho were interested in the cause of temperance, and to carry the motion that I mond to-night. There is just one thing I would prefer about this motion, and that is that it should have been moved as '11' amendment on the motion which the loon. mcmbP·r for Toowong said he would· movE' \Yhcn thiB question wa-s under discussion on Thur.,day las:-that \Vas, that the ParlLt­nlentarv R~cfrcsh1nent Rooms Con;rnittce'~ recommendation should be given effect to. If the hon. member had moyed that, my motion would have been much more ·in order as an amendment; but as, for some reason which I dare say tbe hon. member will explain, he is not going to carry out his intention on that matter, I am movmg this motion. I am basing my claim to abolish the bar on the ground that it is better to abolish an injurious thing than strive to limit the effects of the injuries that may arise from allowing that thing to exist. If indulgence in intoxicating liquor is a good thing, then why bother about regulating it at all? Why bother about an Act that safeguards the use of it, with special provisions right through it which say, "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not"? If it is a good thing, it is a good thing all the time, and, if it is a bad thing, it is a bad thing all the time. The mere fad that there is special provision is a very definite admission that there is danger in the use of intoxicating liquors. With regard to this House I am not saying there is any special need, or any special threatening of danger, with regard to the personnel of this Housf'. I nay, after nine years' experience in tbis House, that it is a very temperate and sober House. On the other hand I am not going to say that there has nevdr been causP for anxiPtv. These may haYe been isolated imtances: hut there ha~-e been cases that cvcrvbc<lv must remember where men haY<' boon' to a greater or less extent injured boca u 30 t ho bar has been in the refreshment­room, ana has bc2n a source of temptation.

Ap I-I Ol'\OUR IBLE ME~fBER: No.

Mr. HARTLEY: It is all verv well to sav "Xo.'' I suppose it is not the ·usual sort of thin;:; to talk about men going down to tcmptatJon. Some men are fortunately pos­sessed of a temperament which resists every app~al to the temptations of alcohol. but there arc thousands of other men not half so fortu­nate who find it verv difficult to resist the appeal that is made by alcoholic stimulants. U a man has been injured as a representative of the people in this House, then that one instance alone is sufficient to entitle me to ask the Hou~~ to close the bar. I sav that if one man has been injured-and it ·is within thC\ recollection of evervone that at times that has been the case-if one man has been " downed " in that way, the cost has been too great for the keeping open of that bar. There are minor exceptions-fortunatelv. minor CXCe]Jticns-to the general rule of sobriPty which has always characterised the

transaction of bu3incss in this I-Iou:w; but at the san1c tim0 they arc there, and it is the duty of everv hon. member to say whether the parliamentary bar is going to continue to haYe the special priYileges which it _now enjoys. This House qmte recenf~y and 1n a verv definite and almost unammous form dcc.i<led that there was a Yery real dang~r in the usP of intoxicating and alcobohc liquors. and practicallv unanimously agreed to a Dill to curtail the hours of the sa le of liquor from 6 in the morning till 11 rrt night to 8 in thP morning till 8 at ni~ht. That was a Ycry direct and tang1ble adm1s"on that the use of alcobolic liquor was growing up lo such an extent that it was time for the Lr-gi~latnrP to step in.

1ir. 11.\HTL!:Y kl\·ing taken a drink of water,

An OPPOSITrox ME:\IBER: Put some whisky in it.

::VIr. HARTLEY: I have known times when people ha Ye said, "Don't put wbisky in it .. " That was at the time of the great flond m Rockhampton in 1918 when, after two dayo' :-:olid "·ork, the n1en said, "Don't 11nt any whisky in it; we will have the tea." I am goino-. to quote only one authority in Queens­landnthat the use of intoxicating liquors is a bad thing for the community. This statement was made when the Liquor Act Amendment Act was passing through this House, and it was made by the Premier.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member will not be in order in quoting· from a debate of the sa me session.

Mr:' HARTLEY: I am merely going to recall so far as mv memory will serYc n1e, what the Premier s>i'id. ·

The SPEAKER: The hon. member cannot even refer to a previous debate in the same SCSSlOll,

Mr. HARTLEY: I am sorry I cannot rdet· to it, b2cause to my mind it affords the strongest support which can be given to the motion, because the one cry against that Act was that prohibition could not be enforced. The Premier said that, if prohibition could he enforced, he would be a prohibitionist to-mono'···. \'\' c arc not worried by the bound­aries of Queensland here to-night. \'\'c have r:o long borders to control-no long coast to guard. By a sin1ple resolution we can say that no more liquor shall be sold, and no more liquor will be sold, and so gi:ve immunity to members of this House while the:v are in it from this nH:nace. Can you giv€ the san1e inuuunity b~.~ an early c~osing of the bar­supposing that you carry the original rccon1-mendation and shut it at 8 o'clock" Can you give tbe same undertaking that it •vill be cnfor<·cd?

An 0PPOSJTIOX J\IEjiBER: The Committee will enforce it.

Mr. HARTLEY: The hon. member is right. This bar is on a different footing from anv other bar. No law goYerlls it. No police­man can come in to see if our resolution is being carried out. ::\o penalty can be imposed for infringement. Therefore the onus of closing the bar at 8 o'clock would be entirely on the Committee, and their powers are far too small and indefinite for them to carry it out.

I <lo not wisb to say much else. I think I have made it plain that, so far as the consumption of intoxicating liquors is con­cerned, the great majority of tbe opinion of the House is. that it is not desirable outside;

:1Jr. Hartlcy.]

Closu, e of lASSEMBLY.J Parz;amen!a :; Bai.

and. if it i~ right to prC'\"l'llt its use outside. then it is rig{,, to preyent its use here. I trust thn t hon. m em hers will realise when they Yote that opinion i::: changing steadily in Quc'en.<land. and that. whilst >YC are becominv a steadier and a better community it will b~ a. good thing if this State Legislat~re gives a lead to the people outside and indicate' that if the. think drinking to excess or at all i~ likelY to be bad for the countrv or the nation it will be the first to set the example and abolish its own private bar.

:1Ir. F. A. COOPER (lJrcmcr): I have l1'!tH.:h plea::-ure in EO<' Hiding the 1notion so ably n;c,-cd by the hon. mrcnber for Fitzroy, and I am filad of thh opportumiy of gettine; 11: a httl<' propaganda on this question. It wa:; a. Y('ry frunous poet of Da1Jto. in Xew South \Yale'. who said--

.. C\cn'r let vour chances. like the sun· shine, paSs you by,

You will never miss the rum till the cash runs dr3 "

I. am not going to _let this opportunity pass ot saying a \Vord 111 season-because it is a WJrd in sca:;;on-on this qu0stion. The average 1nan likes to speak to ''""hat he can rcgnrcl .~~ an intC'lllg('JlT audicnct'. and onP i:1 nl~' position to-night can at least pride lnmself on the fact that he hac an audience as intelligent as he could possibly get.

_\n HoxOcR.'BLE ~E~!BER: In the galler0 ' :\h. F. A. COOPER: l am well aware of

tho fact that I am speaking to a yery intel­ligent auJieP-cc upstairs-(laughter)_:_and I nn, sure th11t. if the rules of the House allowed nw lo ask them to give their deci· sinn a~ to v,·hrther tho " Ayes n or the '· :\'ocs" chould hav0 it it would be U'l OYerwhelming- ".Aye" vote.

I 'nnl to knmY whether the members of tl1is Ilouse. if they were all employers, would allow their C'mplo,Yl'C:" to "blow out" at an:v timt"' \Yhcn their work \\·as on to refresh thPHl.sf'1YC's at the bar? I an1 game to sav that they would not. '

An 0PPO~ITIO'i 2'.IE1rBER: \Yould you work t hen1 :::ix:teen hours a day?

:\Ir. F. A. COOPER: I "-ould not work tlwm sixteen hours a day.

:\fr. SIZER: \Vhat about a soft drink? :\lr. F. _\, COOPER: The same argument

wuild apply to a soft drink, but I am !rame to ~ay aL-o that. if the average etnployec of Qu0er,;,land was to ask for the priYilege of l1Ping able to '·wet hi~ eve" with a lemon sqc:a.,h, it would be rduse'd to him.

Tlw Ilm!E SECRET.\TIY: \Yhv not cut it all out' -

:\h. F. A. COOPER: If that is all that is \YOrrying thP .Hon1e Secretary. I can ask him to shake hands and Yote with niP. I am not going to drink a l<'mon squash if I do not want it, and if ho does not want me to drink it I an1 not going 1 o drink it.

T}w }J OJ.IE SECRETAHY: I arn not inviting yen to drink one. (Laughter.)

Mr. F. A. COOPER: I do not know that the hon. gentleman has changpd his attitude. There is a good deal in what the hon. mem­ber for Fitzroy said about the talk with ;·egard to the inability to prohibit. No law actually prohibits. Years ago ~oses walked down from Mount Sinai and made some ren1arks about not committing any n1oro murders, still we ha vc had a few murders since then. Th,, fact that a law operates does not 'ay that a thing will not be done

( Jh·. Hartley.

again waut to irnaginc a 1nun with a Ford car. Anvono \vho bas ·drin~n a car know-; that at tln1e~ a Ford car tric·, to drive up a Yt:randa post. Everyone knows that sonle­times a Ford car comes into collision with a railway train, much to the detriment of th<> Ford car; but, if hon. members >vere offered a ridr' homP to-night in a Ford car, they would take it, because they know that on an a ,·erage a Ford ('ar is fairly safe and fairly rdiable. The law in a great many cases is farrly safe and fairly reliable; but, like a Ford car. sometimes the valves burst. On tlw a.verU:gc, it is a safe and reliable thing, but it is 110 argument to advance i hat. because one mlln in 199,000 gets a bit of "shy pooh'' or "moonshine" the whole thing is a failure, and we ought not to call our· selves legislators with any idea of advance· mont of anv kind whatm-er. I do not want to touch or! i h.: aspect that liquor is a bad thing. I did not think it would be necessary for an A<<omblv like this to allow its Secretary for Education to intimate to the ochool children through the school books that alcohol is a slow poison. Admittedly it is. S'omeone said to me, " What harm does liquor do? " I asked a medical man. " \V hat does liquor do to the aYerage man? " HP said, "I will tell you, Cooper. It is about the most colourable thing I know. To ninety­nine out of a hundred it gives a red nose, a black eye, a white liver. and a blue outlook." The average man says, " There is nothing wrong with me. I am all right." But in walktng along the street I can see that there is. I can see many a man who thinks that his health is all right when it is not. He has floating giblets. He has inflammation of the oopazootics, congc- tion of the bell a donna, and nine!Y-nine times out of a hundred he has ingrowing tonsils. (Laughter.)

Tlw SPEAKER: Order! I would point out to the hon. gentleman that in this dis· cm·,ion he cannot raise the whole question of liquor reform. He had an opportunity of doing- that when the Liquor Act Amendment Bill was going through the House. and he will have another opportunity when the Home Secretary's Estimates are being dis­cussed. I ask him to confine his remarks to the moticm before the House.

:Mr. F. A. COOPER: I am very sorry. I had no idea that I was transgressing so far. I shall now get back and keep within the bounds of the motion to the best of my abilitv. \Vhen we fixed the hours for the ~ale of liquor between the hours of 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. wo were doing something in the direction of reform. If we can do that, then I think we 'hould go a littl<l further and close the parliamentary bar. I believe that. when thi Hou'c passed the measure pro­Yiding for 8 o'clock closing, it was a step towards the realisation of a plank in the platform of this party. which is total pro­hibition. I think that this House will not be doing any violent wrong if we wish the community to know that we are a sufficient!, mtelligcnt body, and that we do not need a stimulus or the sociability of liquor to help HS to clo our "-ork. The liquoe b,u is ab<o]utdy unncrc-.sary in this Rous!', and we should therefore earn- this resolution. I ha.-e very much pleasure in supporting it.

1\Ir. CORSER (Burnett) : Being a member of the Parliamentarv Refreshment Rooms Committee, I notice that there is a certai'n amount of kudos taken by the Press for some

nrtick.o that recently ap\J0ared. I moye the orni~8ion fron1 the 111otion of the 'yord.;'.-

" but apprcYeo of the ab·,olute clowrc of the N•frcshmcnt-room bar fm· the sale of spi ritnou3 and fermented liquors."

I kno\v that there arc certain hon. n1cn1ber8 m this HoUo'0 ,,-ho are most anxious that I ,hould moYe this amendment, and from their point of Yif'W it giyc;_, n1e YCrv 1nuch pleasure in doing so. \Ye ha YO listened to son1e of the st utr to-night that might be gi,-en out­~idP. \Ye do not 'n1nt to get into a dis­cussion on the l'ights or wrongs of temperance reform. I do not think there should be any t1 xprl'ssion of opinion as to how the vDto in October is going. It has been stated by the mover of the motion that members of this House have not abused the bar, and that hon. members haYe not boon undulv affected in any way by the pr'csence of t'he bar. \Ye ba,-e had an expression from temperance members on both sides that vou could not ~ecurc ~eyenty-two n1e~n in any gathering of men in the State ,-ho ,,-ould be more tem­perate than hon. members here, Mv amend­ment is not an appeal for the right to have a drink, but for the same rights as indi­viduals as arc enjoyed by the public outside. It has been pointed out by the mm·er that Lhe police haYc no jurisdiction in this House, and the-.- cannot take any action with regard to the presence of liquor within the House if it is uot sold m·er the bar. It has practi­cal!~- been agreed by those supporting the motion that liquor will be consumed within the prec·inct· of the HousC> even if there is no bar in the House. I think it is far hPtter to ha ye the ~ale of liquor under the control of a committee than to leave temp­tation opc~l CYPn to n1cn1bers of Parllatnent.

Hon. IY. H. B.mc;;cs : 1\-ould that not also a pp!:. outside?

::\Ir. CORSER: The police ha Ye rights out­[:.irlc which th0y have not jn Pai·lian1ent lion·<'. I am not making rrn appeal to the outsld(' pubhc. \\·c arc ahsolutelv tied bY th0 anLndn1ont here. Son1e hDn. ~~cntle1ne~1 claim that they did not want the ~bar open because the:-· did not want it, but there may be othC>rs "·ho do want it. ·The SECRECIRY FOR Pc:cBLIC LAXDS: \Ye

'Hdlt to protect them against the evil. .!\lr. CORSER: I do not ,,-ant to protect

them against the evil. but those who partake of the evil up to the present do not want prctcction Dgaircst it.

The SECREL\RY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: U nles' ·'~mething. is done, a number of the prohibi­twmsts rmght take to dnnkmg. (Laughter.)

Mr. CORSER: There is no credit to them i11 ~tanding by their vrinC'iple if t!1cre is no t0mptation. I would sooner take the credit of resisting a temptation than of having it remoYed so that I shall not be tempted. This country has gradually been putting aside the <lrinking habit, ·and has been becoming steadier and steadier, and a more temperate and a more thoughtful people have been grovving up in our comn1unit:v. If that has been done without any restric­tion, how much more is it to the credit of the peovle here in Parliament to admit that WA can be temperate or moderate without tcking it "''"ay altog-ether? I look upon the' qu0stion from that point of view, and I "ouJ.d not c>tre if I never had a drink lh'fore lO o'clock at night. (Laughter.) I sincc·n~l:: hope that the a'lwndment. which prm·ides for the deletion of that part of the motion which

073

propose,-: to enforce total prohibition in this Homl. "·ill be carried. \Ye >hould haYc the right tr partak0 of a dr1 11k if it i~ essential on bclwlf of thc older members of this Assemhlv. I tnJ't that hon. members will not be le"d ;l'-~--lf' bY cel'tain rritic-isn1s ]cyclJf'd nt th1..:'HI

front o~1hide this Cha1nber, nnd that th.-_y ,,-ill stand up and adjudicate upon the- xights uf members as theY think fit. 'lld n>lc be ituprc%ed by certaii:1 criticisnis in the Press. The 11ub\ic i'3 not going to think an.\~ n1ore cf hc)n. llH'nlbCl'~ if thev allo\Y then1:3ches to bE dictatPd to b'.- the Pres<, and if the,- do Pot u~c their o\yn con1n1on ,,~n..;~~. It. hns be 'll claimed that spirits arp rrn e,·il. They mav hl' if theY are abused. but ir h:1s been cla;med that there is no abuse' in this House. IIrr can this be an cYil i£ it i::; not aiJnsed? There has been no excuse given for prac­tically i1: ulting the (_;han1bc~· LJy dc!cla ring that it i:.; 11C'cr.;;sar,- to c1o . .::.; 1hc· ha!· hn the f-.af('t:r of leg-islation, a;;; there has been nOJ illustration of it ~jnce I hay'-; L0cn here. I. n~oYe the un1end1nent to allc1·,\· h:JP. 1nPn1hers to shm,· their backbone ,,-ithout being die, tated to by the Press or anybody else.

[9.30 p.m.]

The HO::\lE SECHE'L\RY (Hon. J. Stop­ford (Jirmnt Jiorgun): I second the amend­mc'nt. 1 La ughtcr.)

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! If this amendment is put. it ,-ill be too late for the hon. nlC'l1lber for Enoggera tu n1oYe an. arncndulCnt \Yhil'h l1e desires to n1oYe.

The HO:}IE SF:CRET:\.RY: It is too late llOW.

..\Ir. KERR (EIIOU(J' '"") ro"'· T!u' SPEAKER: I intend to give the hon.

for Enogg·cra an opportunity of hi.~ amC'nchncnt.

::\11-. KERR: I bee to move the omission of a 1! wonh i11 the , motion after the word " House" in the first line with a view to i1~~0rtjng the \Yords-

•• ap]H'OYC'S OJ. the .deri~ion arrived at by tl''-~ Pn1·1iament.IJT RcfreshnH:-nt Rooms Commitire to clos'<' the rdre~hment-room liquor bar at 8 o'clock p.n1."

The IImiE SECRET.\RY: That is <> direct ncgatiYc .

::\lr. 1'\:ERR: It is not a direct negative of the whole oi the motion. The motion moved hv the hon. member for Fitzrov is double­banellcd. :\lam· members in ·this House duire to support the ruolution come to by tlw ParliamentarY Refreshment Rooms Com­mittee to confm:m to the hom·s of dosing as laid down under the Liquor Act Amend­ment Act, and thus conform to what is being done outside by closing the bar at 8 p.n1.

::\Ir. PoLLOCE: You can achieve your ol,jcct by ,-oting against the motion.

..\lr. KERR: There has been no reason a(h-anccd win the total abolition of the bar elwuk! he bi·ought about. \Vithout going into the question of liquor or otherwise, my motion give< every member the opportunity of saying whether the bar should be closed at 8 p.m. \Yhen this quection was first raised in this House on the Estimates, there ''""s no question of the total abolition of the bar. Yarious members indicated that it would be a fine thing to take a decision of hon. members on the question, but the only question then raised was the 8 o'clock closing

Mr. Kerr.]

IJ71 Closure of [ASSEMBL Y.J Parliamentary Bar.

of the ual". The motion for the total aboli­tion of thc sale of liquor in the bar which has been submittl'd bv the hon. member for Fitzroy is simply pro]wganda. It would be in tcrestin!l' to know w hPther the nloYer and H'conder LOf the n1otion '"ere prepared in caucus to ~o w far as tD move for the total abolition of the bar. There is a conspicuous notice on the Trades Hall ach-ocating a vote against prohibition. Arc they not the Labour party-the )wadquarters of the party?

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. KERR: I S'<.v the time is npe now.

Instead of can1ouflaging the whole position as it is camouflaged by this motion, all who desire ma:.· cast a vote as to whether they are prepared to cl0se the bar at 8 o'clock p.m. am! n0t ,-otc on the 0ther question that has been moved in this House. The motion as I desire to amend it will read-

" That this House approves of the ·decision arrived at by the Parliamentary Refreshment Rooms ·CDmmitte;J to close the rcfreshnu~nt-room lirp1or bar 21 8 o'clock p.m.''

That will put the matter quite clearly; and we shall have the opportunity of voting directly on the question that was previously before the Il0nse.

The HO:YIE SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stop­ford, ]fount Jloryan): I rise to a point of order. If I understand the position correctly, the decision· of the Refreshment R0oms Com­mittee stand., unleso that decision is upset bv a diret·t vote of this House. The hon. niernber for Fitzrov has moYed a n1otion, I have seconded an amendment, and I do not think there is anv need for the amendment of the hon. rr1erllber for Enoggera. It is merelv sidestepping· the amendment, and desire-;, to shut out the amendment submitted bv th0 hon. member for Bm·nett.

Mr. KERR: It will give the Minister an Dpportunity for a direct Yote, which he other­wise will not have.

The HO::YIE SECRETARY: I ask for your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether the amend­ment of the hon. member for En0ggera ts m ordet·, seeing that the defeat of the original motion will bring about what he desires?

:C.lr. HARTLEY (Fitzroy): Speaking to the point of order raised by the Home Secre­tal'V. I think it should be pointed DUt that the. hon. mentber for Enoggera can achieve his object by voting ag·ainst the motion that I haYe moYcd, and that his amendment, as now franwd, is a direct negative.

::\Ir. KERR: I 'vant to see how you are going to Yote Dn the question.

Th0 SPEAKER: I rule the amendment of the hon. rnPn1ber for Enoggc-ra out of order, a-; it ];; a dirccr negath·e. The hon. rnember will have the opportunity of ,-oting, if he so desires, against the motion mm-ed by the hon. membC'r for Fitzroy.

::\It·. CORSER (IJurnt!t): I now beg to r.no\-e n1v an1endn1cnt to ou1it the '"ords-

" bdt approyes of the absolute closure Df the refreshment-room bar for the sale of spirituous and fermented liquors."

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stop­lord, Jlount 'Jlorgan): I second the amend­ment of the hon. member for Burnett. It seems to me an extraordinary thing that the HoL!se-it i'l supposed to be the cream of the intelligent people of the State-(laughter)­finds it necessary to shut down the bar for reasons ach·anced by the mover and seconder

[.!llr. Irerr.

of the motion. I want to call the attt'ntion (\f hun. HH'!nbcrs to this a:"pPrt of tb~· question --t.'tat all talk aLont ueing trc:~wd the· sanw <ls l}Poplo outside j3 nlCl'C>lv '·bunk. 1

' ThP t\Yo logical reasons advanced by the hon. member fm· Fitzrm· and the htm. member for Bremer were that· an evil exist; and that we must pah a resolution to protect Dursclyes against that eYil. That was the logic of the remarks of the hon. member for Fitzrov-that an evil existed and, unless this intelligent House closes its bar at the same time as the hotels do. that evil would overcome the members Df this Home.

Mr. HARTLEY: I did not. ing the bar altogether.

suggested clos-

The HOME SECRETARY: l:nless the bar is dosed altogether it is suggested that the evil will eYentually overq,ome hon. members. Yd that bar has been in existence for a considerable time, and we have from time to time heard statements testifving to the sobriety of hon. members of the House. The hon. member for Bremer stated that no employer would permit a man to leave his work and g-o outside for a drink of intoxi­cating liquor. ::\'either would he pro.-ide that man with cheap tea or coffee. There is one aspect of the debate which I v\ ant to place before hon. members, and that is that by carrying this resolution y0u do not bring the members of this House level with the public outside so far as the Bill which I recently introduced is concerned. Under the prm·isions of that Bill, in any licensed premises or club liquor cannot be consumed after 8 o'clock at night. \\'hat d0es this pious resolution say?

Mr. liARTLEY: If vou carrv mv resolution, we put Parliament ahead of "the clubs.

The HOME SECRETARY: It will n0t do so. I ha Ye a locker in this House; the hon. member has a locker in this House; there are seventy-two lockers in this House, and ever¥ member can stock his Dwn locker with as much liquor as he likes, irrespcctiYe of aay resolution passed by this House.

Mr. HARTLEY: That is an argument against 8 o'clock cl0sing.

The HOME SECRETARY: It is not. You ca!lno! apply the provisions of !h·" Bill that we rerent1=- passed t0 this House unlees y0u put this Parliament on the same level as hotels. Under the provisions of that measure n0 liquor can be consumed on licensed prem­i-.cs or en club pren1iscs after certain stipu~ l<:ted honrs. \Yh"! is the poeition of this House? 'l'he h0n. member would lea cl the r·ublic outside to bclieYe that the hours for 1 he .$ale oi liquor hero aro the sa1nc as cpcrate in regard to hotels. That is not correct. During the period this Hm1sn is in :;;cssion the parliainPntarc bar is opc'n for certain hours. For tho 'rest of the v~~ar­which is usually for c tght or nine n1onth·s-the ba.r is ckse,J at 5.30 in the afternoon and at 1 o'elock OIJ. Saturday. and is neYc~· opened again till 1londay morning.

Hon. F. T. BREXNAX: And it is closed on all holidays.

The HO::\IE SECRETARY: \V,, mwt to approach the question 'vith the full know­l,,dge that the dope that we are e'>'tcnciing special 11rivileges to ourf-lelves vvill r~oi bear examinatiDn, because the res0luti0n before the House will not prevent anv member of this House who desires to consume liquor within these premises from doing so provided that he places in his l0cker the liquor which he desires to consume.

[11 SEPTE}!BER.] Parliamentru·y Bar 075

Mr. ROBERTS tEu.'l TrrO!('OOIJII;fl): I waEt to say at the out.,._,~t thar I very rnnch rr·g-ret the position which I Jind the Home Sc•crc•tary in to-night. It i~ really a 1no::;t nufortnnatt~ 1hiug, after the way in' which he piloted the Liquor A et Amcudillenr Bill 1 hrough thC' Hou-,e a fe\v day~ ago, telling th0 people of /)ueenslaud there shall be no liquor 'old in Queensland i:lfter 3 o'clock in tlH~ •,'\-t•ning--

Thc licnn: SECRETARY: I ,aid on liccn,,d pren11ses.

Mr. ROBERTS : The Hcfreshmcnt Rcwms Cmi1n1it1ce rna.de a l(pOlt to tlns IIcJu:-,C' ou the Estimate' that the· \\ere gomg to fall into line with the dt><Jl:C' of tlus House that liquor be not sc;ld in the parliamentary bar

fter 8 o'clock in the eYening. and I take it '" con~unu~d" 1vas also meant: vet i1 is thC' contention of the Home Scc.rNary that, although the parliamenta.ry bar rnay be closed, liquor may be consumed on these r>romises. If that is so. we should ban li<wor !ram this House. ·

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLW LA:\D~: You cannot pren:mt 1ne having liquor in IY(\T roon1.

~fr. ROBERTS : I put my opinion against that of tl1e Secretarv for l'ubtic Lands. In rny opiuion this H(Juse should goycrn this House, and no one knmys it better tLan the Jate Speaker, who is no\v Secretary fur Public ~l.and5.

The Hm.rE SECRETARY : Do you say this motion will do that?

Mr. ROBERTS: I do not. but I take exception to the Home Secretary trying to infer that \VC cannot do anything. I wan_t to make it quite definite where \VC stand. I understood from you, Mr. Speaker, last Friday, that there wrt·s a possibility of the hon. member for Toowong moYing a certain resolution. I took the position that it is not for hon. members \Yho arc sympathetic towards the closing of tlre bar at 8 o'clock to m.oYe a resolution to that effect, but that ir would be for some one who wanted an alteration of the motion to mon' iu the matter. \Ye also askccl our leader, the hon. member for \Vindsor, to inti~pate to the Prcn1ier before the Hou~e illl't last Frida.v that we could not support the hon. membe.r for Fitzroy in moYing the rcoolution. \Ve haYe come tb the position that we haYe got tlw hon. mcrpber for Fitzroy moving what may be termed a double-barrelled resolution. I want to _;ay definitely that I am not sup­.Portiug that resolution.

Mr. HARTLEY: I knew that.

Mr. ROBERTS: I arn just as sincere at this moment in opposing the resolution as the hon. member i" in moving it. \Ye will chow our position when a diYision is taken. Taking the n1otion as 1t Etands) a division will be taken on the amendment of the hon. member for Burnett. I am opposed to the amendment. I \Yant to be t]llite clear. Those who are prepared to stand to the recommend cl tion of the Refreshment Rooms Committee will haYc to ,·ote against the amendment. and, 'if they desire to endorse the recommendation of the Committee, the,­will also have to vote against the motion of the hon. member for Fitzro'··

Mr. WARRE:\ (JJurrumua): I think the resolution could have been moved in a ver.'' different manner. It seems to me that it is n•ry much double-barrelled. 'While I am offering this criticism I am going to vote for the motion. I am of opinion that thi~ should be just as much a business institution

a-5 any big business in the citv. There aro many' thir1gs that are not allo;ved that may be eithct· good or inju1·ious for the indivi­dual, but we b:ow that alcohol is not con· duciYc to ,;ood business. I think that on tb·sc promises it. \Yould be Ycry much better if alcohol \cas no1 hPro. \Yhile I stand four­square for 8 o' clc-ck closing and agree with the C .mmit tee, 1 should certain!.) like to sc•e this Chamber fl·, e of alcohol altogether. We have had a lot of discussion as to whether hon. members know exactly hCnv far to go. I do not \Vish to offer any criticisn1 as to whether hon. members know how far to go or anything of the sO!·t, but I am of opinion that alcohol io a bad proposition for any indiYiciLwl. I feel quite convinced that, if \Ve ·free our parlianlentarJ institutious fro1n alc:chol, it will reflect credit upon us and be a good thing for Queensland. I am cPrtainly going to support the motion.

Hol\. \V. H. BAR01ES (lVynnum): There is no doubt that thie is a matter on which hon. members arc' entitled to vote according to their conscientious convictions. I take it that tho amendment which has been moved by the hon. member for Bm-nctt would simpl,, defeat the action of the Committee, and I think the action of the Committee ought to be confirmed by this House. After giving the ma1te1· full consideration, they recom· mended the closing of the bar at 8 o'clock; but, if the atnendment is carried, wo are going to get back to keeping it open till 11 o'clock or a Jong as the House sits. If \Ye a re going to be consistent, we must get into lino with the law outside. If this House savs-and it has said-that 8 o'rlock is the ti~e at which outside bars .. hould close, it seems to me that the parliamentary bar should be closed then also.

Mr. HmTLEY: The first time you have been in line with the publican.

Mr. F!lY (to Mr. Hartley): You were in line with 1 he bookmakers the other night.

HoN. \\'. H. BAR:;'>;ES: I am going to g·i ye a conscientiou~ vote on this question. l'p to a certain point the argument of the Home Secwtan i, correct. The House has decided that s· o' dock shall be the dosing time of bars outsidr and I, in common with other hon. me1nbers, arn verv conscious of the fact that next month a ·vote is to be taken on prohibition. I have no hesitation in sayiHg that I shall yotP for it. but in the meantime I sav that, until the countrv has decided the (]lJcstion, we ought to stay our hands.

l\Ir. H lllTLEY: You are frightene-d to show where you arc.

HoJ>;. W. H. BARNES: Till then >ve should get inJo line with what the Go\·crnn1ent haYo decidNl upon in the Biil which we recently passed.

l\1r. H.mTLEY: thought you Y:ere a tc:mpcrance reformer.

Hol\. \V. H. RARXES: Mv attitudo is well known to the public, and i: do not care ' hat the hon. member mav sav about mv being a. temperance reform'Cr o'r othenvisC. If ouc ,vanted to indulge in recrimination or turn up the columns of "I-lan,,ard," one could find that the hon. member who has been interjecting could bo revealed in a light which would show that he has been absolutely inconsistent, judging him by his utterances.

Mr. HA!lTLEY: Which wav? You turn it up. 'That is just what you o'annot do.

Hon. W. H. Barnes.j

976 Closure of [ASSEMBLY.] Parliamenta•·y Bar.

Hox. \Y. H. BAR:\"ES: But there 1s no nped for that. It is a question of \Yhether we arc going to get behind the Committee, \dlO. in their jndgn1ent, haYe decided upon a certain thing. [ -want to say here and now that I take it that the decision to close the bar at 8 o'clock is not due. in the main. to the ar·tions of the men who arc not able to

control themselves. Hon. members know that I am not ft frequenter of the bar; but I n1ust sa7, in all fairnes:', that it is a rare thing to sec an h0n. n1embcr hci·o under tho influence of drink. But '"'' have a dutv to get into line with the people outside, m~d I approye, ?.lr. Speaker, of your action on the Committee. and I hope that the amendment mm·ed bv the hon. member for Burnett \Yill be defeated. ·

""lr. POLLOCK (Grcgory): I inteml to adhere to my original inteution and support the recommendation of the Refreshment Rooms Committee on the ground that they did the wisest thing for all concerned for many reasons which could be given, were it not. I take it, that hon. members vcant to get to a vote as soon as possible. ~-\]though I propose t" vot•• for the closing of the bar at 8 o'clock, I believe that. if any part of the rcfrcshnlent-l·ooms should be closed, it is the tea and coffee l'Oom, because the bar i• the only purt that pays.·

Mr. \YIC<STAXLEY: It does not pay very rnnch.

'\fr. POLLOCK: The ba.r does ll'•Y 1ts 1vn:: and .how a profit, but the coffee-room does uot. The lX'ople \1·ho a l'O drinking tea and ccffec at the State's expense arc coute!lt to lw.vc it kC'pt open and to haYe t.\-te only pay­D ble concern closed clo\\TL

:\Ir. IlARTLEY: Tlw bar does uot pay any license fee or bal'nlaids' \Yages.

:\11'. POLLOCK: I mostlv driuk tea. a>1d coffl'E'. i-l11d that n1akr~::; n{e YCl'Y tole-rant tc•warcls the man who likes his bee;. and p~ys the full yn-ice for it. Th>lt is wh:- I think th<l bar shonlcl be kept open until 8 o'clock. Some hon. members think it chould be kept c.pen until the House adjourns, but I do not b< lieve in that. One could easily imagine that there may be disadvantages in dosing the ba.r at 8 o'clock. If the hon. member for '\Y ynnun1 1vas a drinker aucl wanted to ha YC his "shandy," he would haYe to go to the Hdle Vue for it, and goodneS' klw1v" \vhat terQptation he would meet "·ith over thc1·e, particularly if he struck " "jazz" uigh!. (Laugl1tcr.l If he did not get back until all h<mrs of the morning and the party missed him, there might be a. lot of troulile. (Laugh­ter.) I intend to vote for the closing of the bar at 8 o'clock. I think it is a fair thing. and, generally speaking, I do not think there 8l'f\ any ill effects here from liquor. I have 11ever seen any, and I do not think any hon. member will argue that we arc suffering from the influences of liquor. It has been mid that coffee keeps you awake. Then that is an argument why coffee should not be sup­pli<'d to the Opposition. (Laughter.) The bar is a paying concern, and I do not want to dE'prive any hon. member of the oppor­tunity of having a drink if he wants it. I do not see any reason why he should go across the road for it. For those reasons I intend to vote against both the amendment and the motion, and support the recom­mendation of the Committee.

Mr. TAYLOR (H'inrlsor): Like the hon. member for Gregory, I intend to vote against

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

both the amendment and the motion aH<'f ~n:r;port 1hc rccmnrncndatiun of the R~frcsh­llll'llt Rootn:-:;; Con1n1ittcc in dt'ciding to close the bar at 8 o'clock.

::\Ir. H.unLEY: You arc anotlwr prohibi­tioni~t.

:\Ir. TA YLOR : Th<• hon. gcntlema.n ought to talk about prohibition! The hon. ge11tle-1ttan stanrl:s up in this Chan1ber "\Vith lears l'L!nniHg do•.-.n his checks pleading the cause ot the chddren of the drunkard and the cause of the IYidow. \Yhat \Yas he .doiHg last w~ek? "h:;: lwlpmg tD create them. HDw<w.er, as J sa1 d last eek, the iirflt mistake wa.s rnade in allowing the hon. n1c1nber for ~undah to IllC)Yc an an10!1dn1ent. on the Liquor ...._~et ~\mt•mim~·nt Blll haymg for its object the· dcBIUg .ot the rmrlianleiltary bar at 8 o'clock. 1 Cl'rtaully agree with the recon1mcndation of the Committee. It should receive the sup­l .ort of eYery hon. member in this Chamber, and I cenaml: mtenJ lo support it.

[10 p.m.J

:VIr. SI;t:ER t,Tunduh): The hon. member for Fitzroy. who moved the motion has been throwing insinuations acToss the' Chan1bee to this ,ide a' to ihe lovaltv or othenyise of certain 1ncrnLcrs towarLds ~prohibition. l-Ie d;ould look at 1 he beam in his own eve fil'st· 't ou \YOJ.dd not permit m<'. 2'.1r. Spe~ker, t~ quote from the speeches of the Premier and otber JHCllliJcr~ of the Govcrnrnent in 1911 wlwn they advocated State control. \Vhat lwp]H'Tl("~ to the 1nen1bers of the J_.abour patt~; on th_ con::-cription issue, \Yhen certain mnnbcr.s did not support the resolution of the part:··: They \'cere thrown out. vYhy ,Jwnld not tbo,e mc!llbers who disagree with

La hour party on this question be als0 o-1Yl1 out?

::\Ir. lLIRTLEY : They an not disagreeing IYith it.

::\lr. SIZER: , The Premier told u·, only tlno; se-swn that the Labour party at the Emn Park Conyention and elsewhere decided on Stare control. H~ has spoken yo]umes on n.

:Ur. POLLOCK: This is not State control.

:\Ir. SlZER: It is. I cannot understand the hm~. lllQlllbcr or his party n1oving and 5-llpportlng a n1otion to-day ·when they have Stat<' control b,v means of the .decision of th€> Pnrliamcntarv Refre~hmcnt Roon1s Coln­rnittec. Cn~glc~tionablv that con1n1ittce is controlling the bar weil. I :shall have no hesitation in supporting the action of the ('OJnn1itt"e in do:3-ing the bar at 8 o'clock, as it is a reasonable thing, though I strongly object to the hon. member for Fitzroy thro\;,;ing insinuations across at members on lhis side of the House. Certain members on the Government side are to-day advocating rrohibition because thev sav drink is an evil. although thev have had State control in their platform for ~·ears. 'Why have they not put that platform into operation?

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order !

Mr. SIZER: \Yhat is the cause of the changed attitude of the party? In 1911 the Premier stated that every time a temperance nlGYelnent 1vas on. and thev vvere con1ing to its culmination, the breweries and vested interests by devious means-by bribery and hush money-bought and won elections, and thnt they always came out on top. Is history J'P)>eating itself: You find to-day one sE'ction of the pan~· adYocating prohibition. I hwe

Closure of [11 SEPTEMBER.) Parliamentary Bar. 977

a pamphlet in my hand issued by certain members on that side of the House in which this statement appears-

" The liquor traffic is the relentless, implacable never-changing enemy of the Labour movement in all countries."

Yet the Trades Hall to-day has the sides of its building placardod . with th" words­" V\7 orkcrs, vote for continuance,

The SPEAKER: Or-der! Order! Mr. SIZER: What is it that accounts for

the chano-od attitude? Is it the hush money referred to by the Premier in 1911?

The SPEAKER: Order ! As I said earlier in ihe evening, this motion is not one dealing with the general temperance ques­tion and I cannot allow the hon. member to pro~e<:;d on the lines that he is now doing.

Mr. SIZER: I object to the hon. member for Fitzroy trying to get kudos in some way at the oxt1ense of members on this side of the Home; an~! his follow-prohibitionists oppo­site arc not genuine when they support that sort of thing.

Mr. HARTLEY: What sort of thing?

Mr. SIZER: I will vote against the motion and ao-ainst the amendment moved by the hon. rr~cmber for Burnett.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc;BLIC LANDS : You will find yourself in a fix, too.

Mr. SI7,ER: I will not. If it is a reason­able thing for hotels to dose at 8 o'clock at night, and if it is reasonable for me as a legislator to tell the mass of people of ·Queensland that they shall not be on l_iceJClsed premises after 8 o'clock at mght, It Is a :reasonable thing for me to say that I must 'tlso curtail my own privileges. l cannot maintain or justify the claim that we as members of this Assembly should have any special consideration over the general public. Hon. members, when outside, will tell the electors that they are the masters and will appeal to them to place them in power. If the public are the masters they ha.-e been told they are, and they must close their bars at 8 o'clock, is it not reasonable for us also to close our bar at 8 o'clock? I regret that the hon. member for Fitzroy has confused the motion to some extent. My vote will be directed to supporting the Committee in their desire to close the bar at 8 p.m. I am quite satisfied that. if that is decided upon, -despite what the mover and seconder of the motion may say it will not be difficult to administer it. I am confident that the Com­mittee and the members of th0 House a·re sufficiently capable and strong to see that the Jaw is carried out, and I expect that hon. members themselves will reasonably restrain their actions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: You restrain yourself.

Mr. SIZER: I am quite satisfied the law will be given effect to.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC .WORKS: vVhat law?

Mr. SIZER: The conditions which I hope this House will agree to and which the Refreshment Rooms Committee desire to

·carry out, and which, I feel sn:re, hon. mem­bers will assist to ea ny out.

Mr. BRUCE (Kennedy): The Home Sec­retary said that no logical reason had been advanced for the abolition of the parlia­. mentary bar. I intend to put forward what

1923-3p

I consider to be a logical reason. We have had member after member opposed to this motion standing up and stressing the fact that we are a very temperate House. If the House is so exceedingly temperate, then why all the objection to abolishing the b~r? ~f there is so little liquor consumed m this House. whv all this strenuous objection to abolishing the bar?

The HmfE SECRETARY interjected.

Mr. BRG"CE: I a;,sure the Home Secretary that while beer rnav be bad for some and good for others, wat"er is good for bullfrogs and the hon. member should stop croakmg. I advocate that hon. members should take to water.

The HOME SECRETARY: I was with you 111

c:oncurry. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS inter·

jectcd.

Mr. BRCCE: Interjections and msinua­tions like that are absolute lies; I say that, whether the interjector is the Secretary for Public Lands or the Home Secre ary. We have heard it said that, if the parliamentary bar is abolished, we would not have debat~s in this House. I say that, if the debates m this House are due solely to the support of whisky the sooner we abolish whisky and have debates from sober men the better. (Interruption.)

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. BRUCE: I am assuming that the statement by that hon. member in connection with whisky is correct. 'vVe have hon. mem­bers mentioning my intelligence. (Interrup­tion.) I have intelligence enough to enable me to control myself, and, while any hon. member is speaking in this Assembly, to res rain myself from boohooing. I have sufficient co,1trol over In) passions and over my feelings.

Mr. SIZER: Who is boohooing?

Mr. BRCCE: I have every roght to criticise and speak on any matter brought before this House, and I intend to do so. No power on earth will prevent me so long ":s [ am within the rules of debate. If this House is the temperate House we say it is, by supporting the motion we can set an e~amplc to the people of Queensland. _\Ve have reduced the hours to the people outside. \Ve have said in reducing the hours that it is good for the people of Queensland, and, when we come to deal with our own personal affairs, I certainly say we can not only do good to the people of Queensland, but, as the elected representatives of the people of Queensland, we can set an example for the whole of the people of Queensland and of the Commonwealth. I admit that it is a temperate House. 'I'he hon. membe·r for Grcgory said he would rather support the opening of the bar because it paid. I am perfectly sure that line of thought is not taken into consideration in the legislation of to-day. W o do not consider first of all whether a proposition will pay before we support it. There are broade-r questions than that of whether a commodity will pay. There are questions of humanity entailed The argument that a commodity will pay is the solo argument of the capitalists to which I personally and many members of this House are opposed. I have much pleasure in recording my support for the motion moved by the hon. member for Fitzroy .

Mr. Bruce.]

978 Closure of [ASSEMBLY.] Parliamentary Bar •.

::\1r. KELSO (~Yundah): Seeing that I moved an a1nendmcnt when the Liquor Act Amendment Bill wa; going through this House in favour of the closing of the parlia­mentary bar at 8 p.m.--

Mr. \V RIGHT: 'Where do you stand now.,

Mr. KELSO: I will tell the hon. member if he wi;l listen to what I have to say. I am surprised at the hon. member for Fitzroy drawing a red herring across the track tD­night. \Vhen I pleaded in this House that my amendment be supported by hon. mem­bers on the other side, did the hon. member support me?

The SPEAKER: Order l Order l I have already drawn attention to the fact that an hon. n1c1nber is not iu order in referring to a prm·ious debate during this session. The hon. member must confine his rl'marks to tho motion before the Housr·.

Mr. KELSO: I want to say first of all that I am going to vote against the amend­ment, and I a!ll going to support the Parlia­mentary Refreshment Rooms Committee in the decision they have come tD that the parliamentary bar shall be closed at 8 o'clock. 1'revwusly my argument was that members of this House should not enjoy any greater privilege than that enjoyed by people outside. I am taking the sta11d at the present time that the conver"o of that argument is good also, and that the membe·rs hero should not be und·cr any greater disability than the people outside. For that reason I am going to support the action of the Refreshment Roou1s Co .mnittee in their decision that the parLamentm-y bar shall be closed at 8 o'clock. It is no good hon. member·_· on the other side trying to poi .. t out that this is the first instal· ment of prohibition. I would ask the hon. member for Fitzroy why he did not use t.hat argument sooner. He had plenty of time on a previous occasion, and he 1nissed his opportu!Jity. Probably the hon. member has suffered some little inconvenience through his friends sugge,ting to him that he was in the wrong in voting against the amendment which I proposed on the Liquor Act Amend­ment Bill. The hon. gentleman tries still to show that he was in the right in voting against my amendment.

The SPEAKER: Order l Order!

Mr. KELSO: I do not want to go against your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and we want to get to a division. I will support the action of the Refreshment Rooms Committee in this matter.

Mr. CARTER (Port Curtis): In rising to suppnrt thp amendment, I would first of all pay the mover of the motion the compliment of at least being consistent. 'fhc hon. member for Fitzroy has always advocated prohibition, and has a! ways been opposed to the sale of drink. Personally I have always differed from him on that question. I believe that a man should have absolute freedom, so long- as he does not abuse it, to obtitin what liquor he desires. I am opposed to the action taken by the Refreshment Rooms Committee, because I do not think it is a correct action. I believe that a casting- vote should never bo given in favour of making a change. (Oppo­sition laughter.) ·when it comes to a casting vote. it is not the custom to make a change by means of it.

An 0Pl'OSITIO:-< J\1EMBER: It was not the case in this House last session.

[ lff r. K elso.

Mr. CARTER: That is an entirely different matter. (Opposition laughter.) It was a matter of administration-not a question of remaining as we were. Motions were moved, in regard to making laws, and it was only a question of voting against amendments and giving a casting vote, which is a different thing altogether. To bring in an entire change on a casting vote is something which is exceedingly uncommon. For that reason I am opposed to the action of the Refreshment Rooms Committee, and I am against the Committee doing something without consult­ing the whole of those "ho are concerned .. The Committee was appointed, not to do as­they liked as far as the sale of liquor was concerned, but to manage the refreshment, rooms. ·with regard to the amendment, I feel that the parliamentary bar should remain as it always has been. It has been argued. that because we have amended the Liquor Act and provided for the closure of hotels aL 8 o'clock we should also close the parlia­mentary bar at 8 o'clock. Did we close the parliamentary bar at 11 o'clock when hotels were closed at 11 o'clock? We kept the bar open all night when it was necessary. The hon. merqber for Fitzrov sots an example to. the public by not touching liquor, and if no one wants it after 8 o'clock, none will be sold in the bar even if it is kept open. I wager that, if the bar is kept open, there are plenty of hon. members in this Chamber who profess that they arc going to vote for 8 o'clock closing who will make use of the bar after 8 o'clock. I think we arc belittlmg ourselves by saying to the public outside that seventy­two men in this Chamber cannot trust them­selves with a bar after 8 o'clock at night. I do not think there is anything more offensive to ourselves than to move a motion to close the bar at 8 o'clock. Hon. members who desire to close the bar at 8 o'clock are either afraid they cannot trust themselves, or that their friends will come here to partake 0f their ho~pitality. A good many temperance people in the world are temperance people because it costs money to buy liquor. I think that hon. members will do very well if they vote for the amendment and leave the liquor bar entirely open.

The SPEAKER: I will again state the question, as there appears to be some con­fusion. The motion of the hon. member for Fitzroy reads-

" That this House does not favour the conclusion arrived at by the Parlia­mentary Refreshment Rooms Committee to close the bar at 8 o'clock p.m., but approves of the absolute clmurc of the refreshment room bar for the sale of spirituous and fermented liquors."

since which it has boon proposed bv the hon. member for Burnett to o'nit the words-

" but approves of the absolute closure of the rdrcshment room bar for the sale of spirituous and fermented liquors."

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (llir. Cor,,er's amendment) stand part of the question-put; and the House· divided:-

Mr. Barber Brnce Col!ins

, Cooper. F. A. Gillies

, Gledson

AY~.s. 12. Mr. Rartley

Logan '\Varren "'eir

,, '\rinstanlcy , Wright

Tullers: )Ir. F. A. Cooper and }Jr. Weir.

Mr. Appcl , Barnps, G P. , Barnes, W. H.

Bell Brand Brennan Hnlcock Carter Clayton

.. Uonroy , Cooper, W.

Corser , CostPllo

Dash Draeon Dunstan

,. Edwards Ft;>rricks

, Foley , Fry , Gilday

Huxham ,. Hynes

,lnnl'8 ,. Ke!so

Questions.

Xot:s, 50. Mr. Kerr

, King Ktrvmn Land Lareombe Llovd Ma:imell

[12 SEPT~;MBER.]

l\1 cCormack McLachlan Moo re :.'\ott Jlayne Pease Petr-rson l'ollock Hoberts

, I;yan Sizer Smith

, . Stopford , ~wayne , Ta:vlor ,, 'l'hPodore , Walker •• Wilson

'l'ellers: )lr. Bulecck alld .\lr. :\(,t t.

! _\TR.:

Ap~-]lr. \'fellingi!•JJ. 1\o Jlr. Yowles.

Resolved in the negative. Question (Jfr. Hartlcy's motion, as

arncnclcd)-put and cegatived. The House adjourned >Lt 10.28 p.m.

Questions. 979>