Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1966

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

846 Supply [ASSEMBLY) Questions

WEDNESDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1966

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS

RAIL FREIGHT CoNCESSIONS TO MOUNT IsA MINES

Mr. Mann, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport,­

(1) Is the railway freight concession granted to Mount Isa Mines when Labour was in power still in operation?

(2) What other companies or firms are granted rail freight concessions to assist their industry?

Answers:­

(1) "The railway freight concession granted to Mount Isa Mines in respect of blister copper and silver lead bullion is on the same basis as applied during the previous Government. Zinc concentrates, coal and coke are now on a fixed rate."

(2) "There are many companies and firms who have been granted freight con­cessions to assist their industries. An extraction of the information sought by the Honourable Member would entail a considerable amount of clerical work which is not considered justified."

Questions [12 OCTOBER] Questions 847

LAND SUB-DIVISIONS IN GREATER BRISBANE AREA

Mr. Davies for Mr. Lloyd, pursuant to notice, asked The Premier,­

( 1) In view of the press report of October 11 that a State Government­Brisbane City Council Committee is con­sidering the striking of a special council rate to cover the Wilbur Smith work in Brisbane, did the Government, when appointing the Commission of Inquiry into Brisbane land sub-divisions, consider the possibility of the findings of that Commission having the effect of increasing rate charges to provide services to private land developers?

(2) In view of the obvious reluctance of industry and land developers to initiate development pending the finalisation of the Commission's hearing, will the Govern­ment ensure that the City's development will not stagnate between now and next year's Brisbane City Council election?

(3) Have all Brisbane City Council ordinances covering land subdivision been submitted to and approved by the Govern­ment and is not Brisbane City Council bound by the Town Planning Authority established under the Government's own legislation?

(4) Could one of the findings of the Commission be to recommend the breaking up of the Greater Brisbane Authority and thus have the effect of breaking up the present administration into small shires?

Answer:­( 1 to 4) "As the matters raised by the

Honourable Member have relation to the Commission of Inquiry recently appointed by the Governor in Council to inquire into certain matters relating to the use and development of land in the City of Brisbane, he will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment thereon at this stage."

ELECTRICITY RETICULATION IN GREATER BRISBANE AREA

Mr. Chinchen, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Industrial Development,­

( 1) Has his attention been drawn to an article in The Australian of October 10 wherein the Lord Mayor of Brisbane, Alderman Clem Jones, is reported to have stated that Brisbane has 100 per centum electricity?

(2) If so, (a) are all settled areas pro­vided with electricity and (b) is the area of Upper Tingalpa provided with electricity and, if not, when can it be expected?

Answers:­(1) "Yes."

(2) "(a) I understand that there are some pockets on the outer fringe of the city still without electricity supply, but details are not available to me. (b) No. The area of Upper Tingalpa is not pro­vided with electricity and recently the Commissioner for Electricity Supply again requested the Brisbane City Council to re-examine the possibility of its undertak­ing this extension and is awaiting the Council's reply. The likelihood of the work being carried out in the near future is unknown at present."

STAFF FOR DARLING DoWNS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,­

( 1) Have applications been called for teaching or lecturing positions on the staff of the Darling Downs Institute of Technology?

(2) How many such positions will there be at the institute?

(3) What are the details of each?

(4) What are the minimum qualifica­tions for each position and what is their salary range?

(5) How many applications have been received for each of the positions and what ancillary staff will be employed?

Answers:­( 1) "Yes, applications have been invited

for teaching positions at the Queensland Institute of Technology-Darling Downs. Advertisements were placed throughout Australia in leading newspapers and Institution journals and the Agent-General for Queensland was requested to advertise the positions in Great Britain. Interviews of Australian applicants are at present being conducted. The overseas applica­tions closed on September 30 and a list of applicants has not as yet been received from the Agent-General."

(2) "Positions to be filled: Nineteen."

(3) "Details of positions: (a) Principal. (b) Officers in Charge of Departments, (i) General Studies, (ii) Business Studies, (iii) Chemistry, (iv) Engineering. (c) Lecturers, General Studies 2; Chemistry 2; Biology 1; Engineering 2. (d) Assistant Lecturers, General Studies 3; Business Studies 1; Chemistry 1; Engineering 2."

(4) "A. Minimum Qualifications, (i) A degree from a recognised university or equivalent qualifications; (ii) Experience in industry; (iii) Experience in teaching; (iv) Personal qualities calculated to exert

848 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

a wholesome influence on students of the Institute. B. Salary Ranges-Principal, $7,570-$7,670; Officers in Charge, $6,610­$6,750; Lecturers, $5,490-$5,630; Assistant Lecturers, $4,390-$4,530. All plus basic wage adjustments."

(5) "A. Number of Applications (Australia only): Principal, 11 General Studies Department-Officers in Charge, 19; Lecturers, 50; Assistant Lecturers, 36. Business Studies Department-Officers in Charge, 10; Assistant Lecturers, 5; Chemistry Department-Officers in Charge, 6; Lecturers, 15; Assistant Lecturers, 11. Engineering Department-Officers in Charge, 13; Lecturers, 13; Assistant Lecturers, 8. B. Ancillary Staff­Librarian, Librarian Assistant, Male Clerk, Female Clerks, 3; Technicians, 2; Store­men, 2; Labourers and Laboratory Assistants, 4; Cleaners, 2; Groundsman, 1anitor."

SENTENCES FOR CRIMES OF RAPE

COMMITTED BY YOUTHS

Mrs. Jordan, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Justice,­

( 1 ) Is he aware of the extreme lightness of the sentence imposed in the case of rape reported in The Courier-Mail of October 11, in which two youths aged fifteen and sixteen, respectively, were com­mitted to the care of the Director of the Children's Services Department for two years even though it was proven that their conduct was premeditated?

(2) Will he consider taking steps to have the relevant laws overhauled so that, irrespective of age, sentences which fit the crime and which could also act as a deterrent could be imposed in the future?

Answers:­(1) "Yes."

(2) "What is being considered is (a) an appeal against a sentence; and (b) the law generally in relation to penalties provided." ·

GROWERS' REPRESENTATJON ON QUEENS­LAND CANE GROWERS' COUNCIL

Mr. Coburn, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Primary Industries,­

What action does he propose to take to provide for more equitable representation of cane growers on the Queensland Cane Growers' Council, and when?

Answer:­

"The question of representation on the Queensland Cane Growers' Council will be dealt with in a Bill to amend the Primary Producers' Organisation and Marketing Acts of which I have already given notice to the House."

CONSTRUCTION OF NEBO-M\CKAY ROAD

AS BEEF ROAD

Mr. Graham, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,­

( 1) Has he read and studied the Com­monwealth Beef Road report which recom­mends the construction of seven roads of the highest priority in North Australia and that one of these roads is the Nebo­Mackay road?

(2) Is he aware that in official state­ments made by the Minister for National Development and the Minister for Air on behalf of the Federal Treasurer the reason for the omission of this road was that the Queensland Government did not have the design on planning up to a stage where it could be included in the road programme?

(3) Why did he omit this road from the beef road programme submitted by the Queensland Government to the Feder:ll Government?

Answers:­(1) "No. This report has never been

released by the Commonwealth Govern­ment and I can only deduce, therefore, that it has not been adopted by that Government."

(2) "Yes."

(3) "I mentioned in my reply during the first reading debate on the Beef Cattle Roads Agreement Bill that :I propose to deal with this during the Second Reading stage, and, as this Second Reading is listed on the business sheet, I will then give a full and comprehensive reply."

EDUCATION FACILITIES AT MITCHELL RIVER AND EDWARD RIVER l\'[ISSIONS

Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to rcolice, asked The Minister for Education,­

( 1) Is he aware that the school year at Mitchell River and Edward River communities at present provides for a six weeks' vacation in August because of the wet season during the months of December, January and February?

(2) In view of this, will he consider taking over the educational facilities at these two schools as from January 1, 1967?

Answers:­

(1) "Yes."

(2) "As indicated to the Honourable Member on September 21, although the transfer of the material administration of Mitchell River and Edward River com­munities has been approved in principle, no firm date has yet been determined for the change-over and it is reasonable to expect that such change will not become effective until after the wet season which

849 Questions (12 OCTOBER] Form of Question

could terminate in May, 1967. Until such change-over does take place the Depart­ment does not intend to take any action with regard to these two schools."

COND!TlO!'S OF EMPLOYMENT OF

ABORlGJNES IN PASTORAL INDUSTRY

I\lr. Wa!liis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,­

What methods have been developed to ensure that Section 93 of the Aborigines Regulations is extended to employees in the pastoral industry?

Answer:­

"Sectio:r. 93 of "The Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders Regulations of 1966" is identical with sections 68 (V) of "The Aboriginal Regulations, 1945 to 1957", which has always covered Aboriginal employees in the pastoral industry. As the Honourable Member is aware, the present legislation was proclaimed on April 28, 1966. The majority of Aborigines now employed in the ,pastoral industry would have signed the agreements under which they are at present working prior to this date. All employers of Aboriginal labour were supplied with extracts of the section of "The Aboriginal Regulations, 1945 to 1957", covering employment generally and which inciuded Section 68 (V) and were thus aware of their obligations in this mutter. Likewise, all former Protectors of Aboriginals held copies of the Regu­lations and were conversant with the entitlement of the Aborigines under this section. All district officers hold copies of the cmrent Regulations and are fami­liar with the position. However, the majority of employers grant equivalent time off to Aboriginal employees to coincide with local race meetings or other local events instead of paying additional wages to cover time worked on any of the days enumerated in Regulation 93."

,BLY HALL, BRISBANE STATE

HIGH SCHOOL

l\Ir. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,­

( l) What were the costs of constructing and furnishing the Assembly Hall, Brisbane State High School?

(2) Haw much of these amounts was provided ty the Education Department and how much by subsidy from the school's P:1rents ;;nd Citizens' Association?

(3) Are similar provisions extended to ;dl Staie Hil!h School Parents and Citizens' As~ociations- in Queensland?

AllSwers:­( 1) "The specific cost of erecting and

furnishing the assembly hall at the Brisbane State High School is not avail­able, as this hall is only the upper floor of a building which was constructed to provide also an art room, an art work­room, a staffroom, a library, a library workroom and accommodation for two classes. The total cost of the project detailed above was $169,829.94."

( 2) "The full cost of constructing and furnishing the assembly hall section of the abovementioned accommodation was met by the State because this hall was provided also for the following purposes: (i) Departmental conferences; (ii) Seminars; (iii) Lectures by visiting educa­tion dignitaries; (iv) Hall for the Conserva­torium of Music; (v) Examinations by approved authorities; (vi) Cultural activi­ties associated with other State high schools and other cultural organisations. Thus, this hall was provided to meet a special situation."

(3) "Parents and Citizens' Associations at other State high schools are assisted by the Department by the payment of a maximum subsidy of $30,000, subject to the availability of funds, towards the cost of constructing an assembly hall."

PAPERS

The following paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:­

Repof't of the Insurance Commissioner for the year 1965-66.

The following papers \'ere laid on the table:­

Orders in Council under-The Racing and Betting Acts, 1954 to

1965. The State Electricity Commission Acts,

1937 to 1965. The Northern Electric Authority of

Queensland Acts, 1963 to 1964.

FORM OF QUESTION

:VIr. MELLOY (Nudgee) proceeding to give notice of a question-

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The han. member's question is out of order; it deals with a matter that is sub judice.

Mr. MELLOY: With due respect, Mr. Speaker, it relates to an entirely different matter, as you will realise after you have heard the whole of it.

Mr. SPEAKER: I shall look at the question. If it is in order I will allow it; if it is sub judice I will take appropriate action.

850 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

COLLECTIONS BILL

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair)

Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen-Min­ister for Justice) (11.19 a.m.): I move­

"That a Bill be introduced relating to collections from the public for purposes of charity and otherwise of the community, and for other purposes."

Voluntary action for charity or some other worthy community purpose has ever been recognised as revealing one of the best traits of human nature, and even today, when the State has "overtaken" a number of aspects of the work of charitable organisations and of those who devote considerable time and energy to them, voluntary activity remains as one of our most important endeavours.

In our present society charity, for instance, is no longer a question of satisfying one's conscience or performing "good works" under some moral duty, nor is it even a question of using the idea of charity to achieve some re-distribution of wealth so as to iron out the W?rst consequences of any inequality, but it still embraces voluntary action as distinct from State action.

It has been said in England very recently that "democracy without voluntary exertion and voluntary idealism loses its soul." How­ever, we are all aware that in appealing to the goodwill of the community and in collect­ing donations from the public for worthy purposes, grave abuses do occur on occasions. These abuses gave rise to Iegislation, in Queensland as well as elsewhere with the object of preventing, or at least lninimising their occurrence. '

Few people would disagree with the need for some regulation in these matters, not only with the object of preventing these abuses but also with the object of protecting those worthy purposes from encroachment by spurious bodies and assisting the drive of voluntary action for social progress. In Queensland, the Charitable Collections Act of 1952 is acknowledged to have played a part in this; but the changing needs of the present time do require that it now be replaced by further and more modern legisla­tion which, while embracing the same objects is to be designed to meet these problems that the existing Act has been unable to overcome.

The proposed Bill thus seeks to replace the Charitable Collections Act of 1952 with an Act the principal objects of which may be said, briefly, to comprise­

!. The making of better provision, in the light of experience, for the regulation of appeals to the public for the support of genuine objects and for the prohibition of appeals for spurious purposes in order to­

(a) give a greater measure of protec­tion to the public from fraud or deceit;

(b) enable the public to be better informed as to the use to be made of their donations;

(c) promote those objects that are worthy of public support; and

(d) ensure that donations by the public are appropriated to the purpose for which they are made;

2. Generally speaking, the achievement of those objects by a simplification of the present means of regulation and control, designed to lessen in certain directions the clerical work of the associations concerned as well as that of the Department of Justice;

3. The division of objects that are worthy of public support between charitable purposes and community purposes with a view to the elimination of any confusion that may now exist as to the objects that are purely charitable and those that are not, while promoting the interests of the various classes of associations that are now entered in the register of charities irrespec­tive of whether their objects are in fact charitable;

4. The making of provision for ensuring a greater measure of regulation and control over appeals to and collections from the public where a commercial undertaking or some private gain is involved, so as to­

(a) promote the interests of the charit­able purpose or community purpose; and

(b) keep the public better informed as to those appeals and collections and as to the appropriation of moneys collected; 5. The giving of lawful authority in cities

and towns, where needed, for the con­trolling of door-to-door appeals and the assistance of street collections so as to­

(a) promote genuine appeals and col­lections of that class and prevent any spurious appeals and collections;

(b) enable a fair and equable distri­bution of those appeals and collections between worthy objects.

Mr. Houston: Did you say that local authorities will control that matter?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: No. I referred to local areas.

Mr. Hanlon: Lawful authority.

Mr. Houston: What do you mean by "local areas"?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: In the city of Brisbane we could either designate the whole of the metropolitan area for a particular collection, or we could nominate, say, south of the river, or Salisbury, or Inala.

Mr. Houston: The department would make the allocation?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes.

851 Collections Bill [12 OCTOBER) Collections Bill

(c) assist in the successful result of those appeals and collections as well as to avoid any real embarrassment to the public;

6. The elimination of the need for duplication of authorities needed in relation to appeals for support;

7. The making of more satisfactory provisions in relation to the investigating of appeals for support to and collections from the public, in relation to the records to be kept with respect to those appeals and collections, to the audit of accounts and moneys and property received and in relation to the lodgment of returns;

8. The ensuring for the benefit of the community of the use of moneys collected or assets obtained from appeals to the public for charities and community pur­poses upon the organisation or association in question ceasing to operate or upon the failure of the purpose for which the money or assets were obtained.

Quite often an organisation set up to raise money for a particular purpose folds up and money is left in the bank, and all over the State there are small amounts of money here, there, and everywhere. This section of the Bi!l will give us power to allocate that money to similar charities in the same area.

Mr. Newton: Some organisqtions already have in their constitutions a provision that should they fold up the money goes to some other organisation.

Dr. DELAMOTHE: That is so.

Mr. Sherrington: Does this money amount to a considerable sum?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: We really would not have any idea, but we do know there are several amounts. As a matter of fact, I had an application yesterday from an organisation that has become defunct, but still has a few officers active, and they asked me to dis­tribute $4,000 which they have in the bank. So it will not be any mean amount.

At the outset it is to be stressed that the proposed Bill, in keeping with the present law, does not extend to appeals for support made solely for the advancement of religion by or on behalf of any religious denomina­tion. They are excluded from the operations of the Act.

In Queensland, the greatest majority of appeals made to the public for support of any other purpose are made lawful by virtue of the registration, in the Register of Charities, of a large number of associations whose objects range from purely charitable purposes-say, hospitals or other community objects-to a number of different objects of which only one or some are charitable. As hon. members know, a practice has grown up of drawing up a constitution which might cover all sorts of things. A paragraph covering charitable purposes is inserted and

this, under the present Act, enables organ­isations to register as charities, although in fact they are not charities at all.

These days, most associations include in their numerous objects a purpose which is charitable, and a number of these associa­tions have become entitled to the grant of registration as a charity solely by reason of that single charitable purpose being so included.

A certificate of registration as a charity is issued to those associations and consequently they wrongfully become, in the public image, charities. These associations are not charities in the true sense of the word. They rarely, if ever, make an appeal to the public for support for the charitable purpose which is included in their numerous objects, yet they actually have the hallmark for registration under the Charitable Collections Act.

Mr. Sherrington: This would apply to sporting clubs?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes, to all sorts of associations. They assume one charitable purpose which gives them registration and standing in the public eye, and then they never raise money for that purpose but for one or other of the other purposes set out in their constitution.

On 1 September, 1966, there were 4,161 associations registered in the Register of Charities as charities, but the great majority of these, as previously indicated, are not in fact charities.

Mr. Tucker: You say "the great majority"?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: The great majority are not charities. Under the Bill the true charities will still get registration as charities. From a quick look through the register it would seem that about 1,000 are true charities.

.Mr. Hanlon: How would you describe the others?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: A lot of them are for community purposes. Under this Bill we are separating the two. For example, there are hundreds of parents and citizens' associations throughout the State registered as charities.

Mr. Newton: Would you include sporting bodies?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. There are hundreds of them registered as charities whereas in fact they are community organisa­tions.

Mr. Houston: You are not intending to exclude any?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: No.

The proposed Bill seeks to remedy this state of affairs while safeguarding the entitle­ment, subject to control, of worth-while associations appealing to the public for support of their objects.

852 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bil/

There will be no duplication of control. At the present time organisations apply for permits to conduct art unions. This will be a sanction for them to go ahead and raise money. There will not be a double-barrel attack on them through this Bill. For instance, once parents and citizens' associa­tions are approved by the Department of Education they will have their sanction to go ahead and raise money.

Under the proposed measure, no associa­tion will be registered as a charity or other­wise have the department's sanction to enable it to make appeals to the public for support of any of its objects which may be worthy of public support until such time as it moves for that purpose. There are many organisations presently registered as charities which have never yet made an appeal to the public for money for charity. In future they will not get a sanction as a community organisation until they make their first appeal to raise money for a charity.

Mr. Tucker: Will there be any difference as far as exemption from sales tax is concerned?

Dr. DE.LAMOTHE: Sales tax is a Federal matter.

Under the proposed Bill the departmental imprimatur to worth-while objectives for the purposes of making lawful appeals to the public for their support will be given either­

(a) where the appeal for support is made or to be made for a charity only, by registration of that charity.

After the Bill is proclaimed we will go through the list and register those that we consider are pure charities, with the proviso that anybody we leave out will have a right of appeal or right of reconsideration. Human error can occur. We may not know suf­ficient about an organisation to say that it is a pure charity, in which case it may appeal to us for reconsideration and have a second chance to be registered.

Mr. Newton: Would these charities get priority over everybody else in door-to-door appea,Js?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Not necessarily. Simply, it reserves the imprimatur of regis­tration for pure charities. It separates them, as something different, from the community organisations.

(b) where the appeal is made or to be made for any other charitable purpose or for any community purpose, or where any charitable purpose or community purpose is joined with any other purpose, by the sanctioning of that purpose.

We have the rag collections and paper collections made by commercial companies, which pay some monetary fee for the privilege of using a name. That is a mixed charity and commercial enterprise. In such cases there is a mixture of charity and

community enterprise. An organi.<ation con­ducting such an appeal will be sanctioned rather than registered as a charity.

The Bill defines "charitable purpose" and "community purpose", and it stresses that a sanction will be required for any particular appeal for support where any charitable purpose or community purpose is joined with any other purpose, such as the collectors I have referred to. Consequently, where any commercial undertaking or purpose of private gain is involved, a sanction will l>e required, but a sanction will not be required to make an appeal lawful where the appeal is made solely for a registered charity. In other words, the registration gives a sanction to raise money.

The system of sanctioning ernisaged is a simple one. Sanctions may be given for an indefinite duration of time to cover appeals from time to time made thereiinder, or for the purpose ·of a single appeal for support. For example, a parents and citizens' associ­ation could get a sanction for 12 months at a time. Similarly, we will frequently give a prolonged term to others that are conducting appeals.

Vvhere an association has obtained the sanction of its objects for the purposes of making appeals for support of thDse objecs. there will then be no need for any local or affiliated branch or section of that associ­ation to obtain a separat.e sanction of those objects for the purpose of making lawful appeals for support therefor. But the local or affiliated branch or section may have objects different from those of the central body and then that branch or section of the association, with the consent of the central body, may obtain a separate sanction. It can either come in under the umbrella of the central body ·Or else get a sanction for itself. As previously indicated, where a sanction is given for an inde·finite duration of time, very little work as regards the sanctioning aspect will be involved from the point of view of both the association concerned and th-e depart­ment. Perhaps once a year the association will get a renewal of its sanction, and that is it.

However, if any commercial undertaking or purpose of private gain becomes involved with any appeal by that association, a further sanction will be required to make that appeal lawful.

The reason for that is that a charity may make a tentativ·e arrangement with one of the rag collectors, paper collectors, or bottle collectors, and that arrangement will have to be submitted to us for a sanction so that we can consider wlrether the charity is being given a fair deal. If we do not think it is getting a fair deal we will £ay, "You are not getting enough out of this. We will not sanction it under the circumstances."

Mr. Sherrington: You will have authority to prescribe what proportion of the profits, if any, the association should get.

853 Collections Bill [12 OcTOBER] Collections Bill

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes, to ensure that it gets a fair go.

Mr. Houston: And the area in which it can operate?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes.

The registration of a charity will likewise avoid the need for registration of local or affiliated branches of the association in ques­tion unless, with the consent of the central body, any local or affiliated branch wishes to obtain separate registration as a charity.

Certain conditions are to be prescribed generally for the purpose of making appeals for support, and registrations and sanctions may be subject to particular conditions. I have just referred to one of them.

A duplication of authorities is being avoided so that where any appeal for support consists only of the conducting of an art union which is authorised by a permit or registration granted under the Art Union Regulation Act, then that permit or regis­tration is to be regarded as a sanction for the purpose of that appeal-it is not necessary to get two-and the conditions subject to which the permit or registration has been granted shall be deemed to be the con­ditions of the sanction.

Mr. Newton: That still would not allow them to run a number of small ones?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: If they come under the Art Union Regulation Act they will come under one or other of the three sections of it.

Every parents and citizens' association formed as prescribed by the Education Act of 1964-and presently there are 1,182 such associations registered as charities~will be regarded as having its objects sanctioned for the purpose of making lawful appeals for support, but those associations will be required to conform to the prescribed standards in relation to collecting donations from the public, if and when they do so.

For some considerable time a scheme for the allotment of days for the making of door-to-door appeals and street collections by well-known charities has been operating in Brisbane. There has been no legal authority for this scheme, which has been promoted by the charities section of the Department of Justice and welcomed by the charities concerned.

As the scheme has no legal basis there is no legal prohibition, where a day is assigned to one purpose, on the making by another of a door-to-door appeal or street collection on that day, to the detriment of the objects of the association which has patiently awaited the assigned day for its collection.

Mr. Newton: Is that governed by the Department of Justice at present?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. It i:-; purely an unwritten law ceded to the Justice Depart­ment by those charities which are constantly active.

Mr. Sherrington: One of the problems of dual control is the policing of regulations. Quite often it is impracticable.

Dr. DELAMO'lliE: We have to give a permit or sanction to raise money for a purpose, and then, under the Traffic Act, the police decide whether traffic will be obstructed.

Mr. Sherrington: That is one of the dif­ficulties about permits for street stalls on Saturdays.

Dr. DELAMOTHE: That i; a council matter.

The Bill consequently seeks to provide a measure of controlling door-to-door appeals and of assistance of street collections in those cities and towns of the State where it is shown that such a measure of control or assistance, as the case may be, is needed. This will not apply to the whole of the State; it applies only where it becomes obvious that it would be an advantage to have the position sorted out.

As has been previously inciicated, the objects of this control are­

(a) the promotion of genuine appeals and collections and the preventing of any spurious appeals and collections;

(b) enabling a fair and equable dis­tribution of those appeals and collections between worthy objects; and

(c) assisting in the successful result of those appeals and collections as well as avoiding any real embarrassment to the public.

Because door-to-door collections are not spread out over a reasonable period they become quite embarrassing and are a nuisance to many householders.

Before referring to the means of control sought to be provided, I refer to the many suggestions that have appeared in the local Press over the years and that have included those for the adoption of a combined "treasure chest" for conducting these appeals, The main disadvantages of the adoption of such a scheme are those that were revealed by the World President of the Lions Clubs to viewers of a television broadcast in Bris­bane about 18 months ago. These dis­advantages are­

(a) only certain organisations obtain benefits from a "treasure chest";

(b) there are always difficulties in relation to the appropriation of the moneys raised between the various organisations that are benefited;

(c) the donor or contributor is not able to nominate the particular purpose to which his donation or contribution is to be appropriated;

854 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

(d) administration costs are relatively high in such types of appeals. (This is a very important factor.)

I do not wish to convey the impression that the then World President of the Lions organisation was not in favour of a com­munity chest as, on the other hand he was in favour of the establishment of 'such a chest as a way of overcoming public apathy to fund-raising schemes and said that people used to canvassers knocking on their door eve~y week-end would probably respond to a smgle funds drive. However, he pointed out that up to 22 per cent. of the ~unds. r~ised towards the community chest m W1ch1ta went towards administration costs. It can therefore be seen that this is not a highly successful method of raising money.

The Bill does not seek to promote the establishment of community chests in fund­r~ising becayse of the disadvantages pre­VIOusly specified. However, whilst the Bill does not promote the establishment of com­munity-chest appeals, nevertheless it does not prohibit the making of that type of appeal. If some organisations want to get together and conduct joint appeals we shall be quite happy to give the necessary sanction. It will not, however, be made compulsory to conduct appeals in this way. Some organisations have been making this type of appeal and, subject to the safeguards afforded by the proposed measure, they may still continue to do so.

A door-to-door appeal is defined by the proposed Bill as in effect an appeal for support made for a charitable purpose or a community purpose, or any of those purposes ic:i~~d with some other purpose, made by VJSitmg any places of residence or places of employment or both, one after another, and there making a collection or there making or distributing any invit;tion for donations, or there selling or offering fm: sale any tickets or chances in any art umon. The term does not include the leaving or collecting or obtaining moneys from col­lecting boxes or the leaving or collecting or obtaining of articles from receptacles there used or to be used in accordance with the proposed measure for the purpose of the appeal for support. In other words, the rag and paper collections with which all hon. members are familiar are not door-to­door collections.

The "street collection" has a similar mean­ing. The cities or towns to which these controls will apply will be nominated by the Governor in Council.

Mr. Tucker: Do you reserve to yourself the right to decide what days these shall be?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: In consultation with the people concerned. That is what happens now. The parties concerned get together and sort out a day for each organisation. Under the provisions contained in the Bill the number cf days a year on which collections

can be made will be specified in each area. For example, it may be decided that 30 collections will be conducted in the year. The various interested organisations will then be invited to apply for one of those 30 days. It can be expected to sort itself out fairly well. Where two organisations ask for the same day, we will get them together and come to some arrangement.

For the purposes of control, localities in the cities or towns may be nominated by the Minister, and, in relation to each locality the Minister may fix the maximum number of days on which appeals may be made during a specified period; fix a day before which applications are to be made to have a day assigned for an appeal during that period; and assign to any applicant such a day. Actually this is very much the scheme that already operates in Brisbane but, as previously mentioned, without any legal authority.

The Bill seeks to have an examination made of the Register of Charities immediately after the passing of the proposed measure and a determination made of those associ­ations that will remain as registered charities upon the coming into operation of the proposed measure. However, it is to be stressed that the removal from the register of any association whose objects are not purely charitable will not mean that that association will be prohibited from making appeals to the public for support of its obj,ects. It will mean that the association will need to obtain a sanction that, where granted for an indefinite duration, will enable the association to make appeals and collec­tions from time to time, subject to the con­ditions prescribed, without the need to obtain a separate sanction for each appeal. In future there should not be any confusion in the public mind as to which ar,e genuine charities, and, as a result of the sanctioning system, the public will be better informed in their own interest as to the various aspects of appeals.

Referring to the conditions that will be prescribed under the proposed measure, I believe I should point out that a proper system a.f making collections will be pursued rig{)fously, and such activities as the using of unsuitable receptacles, such as saucepans ,and other utensils, when collecting donations of money from the public will be prohibited. Hon. members have probably seen those used on the South Coast.

Mr. Tucker: You should have a good look at the plastic bags that are used for collec­tions, too.

Dr. DELAMOTHE: y,es. Under the pro­posed measure, a number of returns that are at present required from associations in relation to their collections from the public and which serve no useful purpose will be discontinued.

855 Collections Bill [12 OCTOBER] Collections Bill

In recent years some concern has been revealed in the matter of what might be t•ermed the commercialising of charitable fund-raising. The existing law is rather deficient in supplying the means of ascer­taining whether there are real grounds for fears in that reg.ard, as well as in supplying means of controlling such practices if they are in operation.

Mr. Tucker: I think there is a lucrative field there.

Dr. DELAMOTHE: I am sure there is. The proposed Bill seeks to supply remedies for these faults in the existing law.

Apart from the new methods that are envisaged of sanctioning appeals, better provision is sought for the keeping of .true and correct records, the making of investi­gations, and, where necessary, the furnishing of information and r·eturns. The Bill seeks to incorporate a regulation-making power by which any evils in that regard may be corrected. In addition, as a result of the information that will be more readily avail­able to the department, any evils in relation to collecting boX:es for moneys and collecting receptacles for articles that are left at places of residence, or of business, or in places ~o which the public have resort, or in public places, may be overcome.

One object of the proposed Bill is to enable any moneys or other property that are obtained from public appeals for some charitable purpose or community purpose and that are not being used for the purpose for which they were collected, in appropriate cases such as where the objects for which the moneys or property were raised have ceased to exist, and wher•e it is considered that .to do so would be for the benefit of the community, to be applied 1o some other charitable pur­pose or community purpose. Experience has revealed that there ar·e occasions when org.anisations are formed, make appeals to the public and obtain moneys and property for their objects, and then disband leaving their assets in banks and other places of safe-keeping, never to be utilised again for the purpose for which .they were intended. If such an occasion occurs in a local com­munity, there seems no reason why those assets should not be used for similar objects in the same locality.

The proposed Bill also seeks to make lawful certain sweeps on the Melbourne Cup horse­race. Melbourne Cup sweeps which are sought to be made lawful are of three cate­gor_ies. The first class consists of sweeps which are conducted for any charitable or community purpose under the authority of a permit issued by the Art Unions section of the Department of Justice. In other words, exactly as is done now.

As is well known, these permits may be subject to conditions relating to the whole proceeds of the moneys raised under the authority of the permit, to the amounts to be appropriated for the provision of prizes,

to the amount of the expenses of running these sweeps, to the prices of tickets, and otherwise.

The remaining two classes of sweeps may be conducted, subject to certain conditions set forth in the proposed measure, without the need to obtain a permit, and without the need to pay any tax. The first of these two classes consists of sweeps conducted for registered charities and sanctioned community objects where the amount of the proceeds appropriated for prizes does not exceed one half of the whole proceeds. However, these lawful sweeps are to be limited to those in which the whole proceeds of the sweep do not exceed $200.00.

There are other conditions to be observed to make this class of sweep lawfuL For instance­

(a) No expenditure whatsoever is to be incurred or paid in respect of the sweep;

(b) the tickets or chances in the sweep are to be sold and issued and the drawing occur and the prize-winner or winners declared on the day of the running of the Melbourne Cup race;

(c) prizes are not to be provided out of moneys held by or on behalf of the purpose for which the sweep is conducted;

(d) the price of every ticket or chance is to be the same and is not to exceed 20c;

(e) the sweep is not to be advertised; (f) the whole proceeds of the sweep

after deducting the sums lawfully appro­priated for the provision of prizes is to be applied to the purpose for which the sweep was conducted.

The remaining class of Melbourne Cup sweep sought to be made lawful without the authority of a permit consists of what might be here termed "office sweeps", but only when the conditions set forth in the proposed Bill are observed. The first condition is that the whole proceeds of the sweep are not to exceed $50.00 and the whole proceeds are appropriated to prizes.

Other conditions include­(a) no remuneration is to be paid in

respect of the conducting of the sweep and no expenditure is to be incurred;

(b) no notice or advertisement of the sweep is to be published;

(c) the tickets or chances in the sweep are to be sold and issued and the drawing occur and the prize-winner or winners declared on the day of the running of the Melbourne Cup race;

(d) the price of every ticket or chance is to be the same and is not to exceed 20c.

Mr. Bromley: What abm1t the sweeps run in the House?

Dr. DELAMOTHE: That is an office.

Further powers are sought by the Bill for the protection of the public where there has been any misconduct or mismanagement in

856 Co/!ections Bi/1 [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

relation to ·;he promotion or conduct of any appeal for support to which the Bill applies, while offences are prescribed in relation to fraud or deceit in connection with appeals for support and public collections.

Other machinery provisions are also incor­porated in the proposed measure.

I commend the proposed Bill to the Committee.

Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.58 a.m.): The Opposition, naturally, will have a par­ticularly good look at this Bill before passing final judgment on it. I am sure that all hon. members will agree that the objects of the B.ill _win assist many worthy charitable orgamsatwns, and the legalising of what we could call the "Australian way of life" in the running of the traditional Melbourne Cup sweeps will also be welcomed on generalprinciple,;.

While li<1ening to the Minister I reqJised the extent of the needs of charity in this country. As time has passed charities that started in a very small way have grown to such an extent that it would be a national calamity if !lnY:thing now happened to prevent th~1r funchomng. . I have particularly in mmd ambUlance bngades and various funds that have been created to assist children such as. spastics; subnormals, the oral deaf, cnppled dllklren, Legacy, and war widows and orp~ans. One could bring many others to mmd Jf · ne gave thought to it.

. Collection' ar~ f!!ade for hospitals, surf hfe-savmg mgamsat10ns and kindergartens. I am sure t'hat on reflection one could call to mmd . man. others. If some of these orgamsatw ' were to cease functioning over­mght bet:«ii e of lack of public financial 'upport, r:r<my families w0uld find them­selves in dir~ need of help. Naturally we have to 1T;aJ...e Jt as easy as possible for worthy organisations to obtain the money that JS so necessary for their good work. One could be a. complete theorist and say th~t all these thmgs should be the responsi­bility of Governments. I believe that as time goes on, and as there is a greater under­stan~ing of. various human problems, some proVJS!On Will be made to ensure that this responsibility becomes a burden on the State and organisations will not have to rely o~ the public's genero:;ity to remain in opera­tion.

Seeing things as they are today, I feel that we have to look at the Bill to see whether it will assist the various charities in carryin<> out their work. "'

The Mir:is1er has indicated that there has been a certain amount of public inquiry about the best way to carry out door-knock appeals. h has been noticeable that since the last amendment to the Charitable Col­lections Act these appeals have increased in number. I do not know whether the organisatior,,; concerned suddenly realised that this ; as a new method of collecting

money that someone had found lucrative or whether it was considered to be an easier way to obtain the necessary financial returns than the rather restricted conducting of raffles, but this sort of appeal seems to have become more frequent than formerly.

Like the Minister, I have often thought that perhaps there could be better ways of organising this method of fund-raising. Perhaps each organisation worthy of support could be allotted a day, or perhaps more than one day, dependent on the needs of that particular charity. If a regular day were set aside for a specific charity the public would know that that was the only occasion on which a demand would be made for their support of that organisation. It must be remembered that. in the main, all these appeals are organised by people who are voluntarily devoting their time to a charitable purpose. Most collectors work on a com­pletely voluntary basis, their one object being to assist their organisation. One of the branches of the life-savers' organisations made a collection recently in my area. The young fellows who were collecting were a credit to their organisation. They were well dressed and their approach was very gentle­manly. I feel that their financial return would have been of great assistance to them.

That type of appeal is very good, but unfortunately, in some instances the organis­ing of an appeal is not so well done. Perhaps the collections are left to area captains who really have not the time to devote to the job. and as a result some people who have not the necessary back­ground are asked to assist. Because of this the organisation concerned can suffer. If these things can be tidied up by legislation, it is very desirable to do so. With door-to­door collecting we must bear in mind that generally the public is generous, but people do not like to think that week after week they are under an obligation to contribute. A householder is more likely to contribute to an appeal if a person who is known to him comes to the door rather than if it is an unknown person. However, too-frequent appeals could become financially embarrass­ing to householders, so we must ensure that sufficient time elapses between appeals to give some breathing space.

The Minister referred to raffles run by parents and citizens' associations, and various other collecting methods. I have been con­nected with parents and citizens' associations for a number of years. One of the main sources of income for many p. and c's. is the weekly envelope, or voluntary donation system. To my knowledge permits have never previously been obtained for this system of collecting. The Minister might indicate in his reply how much is required for registration in these cases. The collection of this money is not easy and the p. and c. associations are trying to obtain as much money as possible for the school without placing a burden on parents as a charge for education.

857 Collect ions Bill (12 OCTOBER} Collections Bill

We must strike a balance somewhere. In some communities it is possible to have an annual charge where parents may pay $3.00 a year. In the majority of cases the $3.00 would be paid yearly, but in other areas that is impossible and it is easier from the parents' point of view to have a weekly-envelope system and pay lOc or 20c a week. One school in my electorate has adopted a three­term basis, with payments of $1.00 a term. This system was introduced to obviate over­loading the head-teacher with administration work in distril;mting envelopes, collecting them and checkmg them to make sure that as far as hum~nly possible,- the correct amount was received once a term.

I suggest that the granting of permits be made as simple as possible; otherwise the associations could run into difficulties­perhaps more imaginary than actual-in carrying out their functions. Normally a parents and citizens' association is lucky to get eight or a dozen worthy souls to attend meetings and work on its behalf. In other word~, the work devolves on a few people and If the procedures are made too compli­cated (even in their minds) the association is likely to lose good, hard workers. I make these suggestions to the Minister as I believe that we must ensure that administration is made simple where voluntary workers are involved.

In some areas local charity committees are est_ablished to run appeals, as for subnormal children. The local committees may hold only. small functions, but raising money requ~res tr~~endous effort, and great com­mumty spmt. The Red Cross Society is another organisation which has small local committees that quite often run small raffles and cake st~lls. Here again, we must ensure that secretanes of voluntary organisations are not overburdened with paper work. In the first. place, . many secretaries tak;e on the job agamst their better judgment. They carry it out to the best of their ability, and in almost every case do so successfully, but they all shy at completing official forms. The Opposition will look at these provisions to ensure that they are not too complicated.

The Minister mentioned the registration of a central body. I have been approached by members of dog clubs and bird clubs which ar~ ~porting organisations and certainly not chanties. They hold competitions, in ~orne cases fo~ financial gain, but in every mstanc~ the pnze, whether in cash or trophy form, m no way compensates the owner f?r the cost of ~reeding and keeping the b1rd or dog. This type of sport requires a considerable amount of money. Some of the bigger dog clubs in other States have used the services of overseas judges. But even. to use an interstate judge costs a considerable amount of money.

_These clubs do _not require money for pnzes, but to orgamse and run their shows. Their complaint is not that they have not

30

received permission to raise money, but that there have been delays, and they have the feeling that they are breaking the law, which is not their intention. I promised them that I would mention this matter to the Minister. Although they are not sporting organisations they are sporting in the sense that they provide open, free, clean com­petition, and taken to the extreme they are assisting the country in the production of these high-quality animals and birds. They cannot conduct themselves in proper form unless they are registered with one con­trolling body, whose activities and personnel are well known to the Government. If the head centre could be given a permit to cover all its affiliates the whole thing could be controlled simply. To give an idea of the size of some of these organisa­tions, one club in a small town has only four members yet they turn up with over 100 exhibits and get a judge from another State to obtain a completely independent decision. It is an event of some magnitude twice a year.

The Minister mentioned organisations which are a mixture of charity and sport. That will have to be looked at carefully to see where the line of demarcation lies.

The power to re-allocate collected money is important. An amount collected some time ago by a large hospital did not reach the desired figure and it is still lying idle, perhaps earning a little interest. The people who gave in good faith now find they have neither the money they gave nor what they gave it for.

Dr. Delamothe: It is locked up.

Mr. HOUSTON: Yes. If those funds could be transferred quickly to a similar project, I do not think anyone who had con­tributed to them would be other than happy about it.

I must make a few references to Mel­bourne Cup sweeps. I do not know whether the motive behind this measure was to legalise sweeps because of their significance to the people, or to obtain additional revenue.

Dr. Delamothe: Local sweeps need no permit.

Mr. HOUSTON: I do not expect even the Minister to go as far as to suggest that local office sweeps should be taxed. If an attempt was made >to tax them, I do not know how much revenue would be received! So far as the other type of Melbourne Cup sweep is concerned, I feel that if something is to be conceded because what it deals with is part of our way of life, then let it be given with no strings attached. If strings are to be attached, the only ones to be granted per­mits will be those registered as complete charities. When money is being collected for charitable purposes, why take something out of it for the coffers of the Government?

858 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

In general, I feel that these charities should be more the responsibility of the Govern­ment than they are today.

Dr. Delamothe: Except some of the organisations that run some of the large Melbourne Cup sweeps.

Mr. HOUSTON: Let us separate the two types of organisation. In conformity with the taxing formula that the Government has already established, perhaps it would be logical to tax one type of organisation with­out taxing the other. I cannot see any reason for taxing what is purely a charitable organisation.

Mr. Sherrington: And parents and citizens' committees.

Mr. HOUSTON: Yes. In my opinion they are purely charitable in the sense that money raised is used for education purposes.

That is all 'I have to say at this stage. I shall leave further comment to other mem­bers of the Committee.

Mr. RAMSDEN (Merthyr) (12.19 p.m.): I should like to make a contribution to this debate and support the Minister in the introduction of the Bill, which is to take the place of the Charitable Collections Act of. 1~52. TI:e Minister said that among the pnnc1pal obJects of the Bill was-­

"The making of provision for ensuring a greater measure of regulation and con­trol over appeals to and collections from the public, where a commercial under­taking or some private gain is involved so as to­

(a) promote the interests of the charitable purpose or community purpose;

(b) keep the public better informed as to those appeals and collections and as to the appropriation of moneyscollected."

If I understood him correctly the Minister said that rag and paper collections were not deemed to be door-to-door collections.

It is in respect of rag collectors that I wish to address my remarks to the Chamber and in doing so, I speak in my capacity as ~hair: man of the Multiple Handicapped Association of .Queensland. I preface my remarks by saymg that I could not agree more with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Houston, who said that what is needed is t? have a r~gular day set aside for a par­trcular chanty so that people will know where they stand.

Mr. Bromley: They should be advertised.

.Mr. RAMSDEN: I am giving a free plug, Without any sponsor.

The Multiple Handicapped Association of Queensland . ha~ tried to do that. By doing some ecclesJastJcal research, for which I am noted, I found out that St. Dymphna, a very obscure saint in past history, is the patron saint of subnormals.

Mr. O'Donnell: You are not a supervisor?

Mr. RAMSDEN: No, I am not a super­visor. As I said, St. Dymphna is the patron saint of subnormals, and as all the children in the Multiple Handicapped Association have subnormalcy as one of their handicaps, the association decided, in the interests of the foundation, to adopt St. Dymphna as its patron saint. Her feast day is 15 May, and for the past two years the association has had the Friday next to St. Dymphna's Day, that is, the Friday nearest to 15 May, reserved with the Department of Justice for its street collection day. It is hopeful that, over the years, this particular day will become known as multiple-handicapped day and be reserved for its use.

Mr. Newton: All associations should accept a patron saint for themselves. It would solve a lot of problems.

Mr. RAMSDEN: I do not know about that.

Having said that, I should like to address my remarks to the question of rag collectors. If the Bill does not contain specific control over them, I shall try to prevail upon the Minister, either by way of amendment of the Bill or by way of regulation, to ensure that some controlling provisions are applied.

I am speaking from experience in this matter, but I do not know whether other hon. members realise the ramifications of the rag trade and how it works in relation to charity. Briefly, the set-up is that a factory that is converting the rags usually approaches a well-known charity and makes an offer to enter into a contract to give to the charity a fixed sum of money on a monthly basis in return for the use of the name of the charity on the collection bag.

In my own case, the Multiple Handicapped Association of Queensland entered into a contract with a certain rag dealer, and the basis of the contract-this was in my young and ignorant days-was that the association received £20 a month and, in return, per­mitted the collector to print a label saying that rags were being collected on behalf of the association and that it was sponsoring the collections.

Mr. Bromley: You must have been pretty easy in those days.

Mr. RAMSDEN: I was, but I am a bit harder now.

The point is that a new organisation, an organisation struggling for money, needs an assured, regular income of $10 a week, and very few organisations can refuse the bait that is offered by such a contract. At least in its early days, the Multiple Handicapped Association certainly could not afford to ignore a regular income of $10 a week, and it entered into the agreement.

859 Collections Bill [12 OCTOBER] Collections Bill

Because of our experience with that par­ticular firm, we have since found out much more than we knew when we signed the contract originally. We found out that the public-I presume that each one of us can be regarded as a member of the public in this respect, because at some time or other each of us has had a bag thrown over his front gate on which words such as "Support the Spastic League" or "Support the Sub­normals" appeared-think that all the rags collected and the proceeds from their sale go back to the charity whose name appears on the bag as the sponsoring authority.

The point is that neither the charity nor the employing firm-the contractor-has any control over the collectors. Most of these collectors are owner-drivers of their own vehicles. They do the job; they are not paid wages but they are paid 5c, or 6d., a lb. weight for all waste materials which they collect and deliver to the factory. The con­tractor himself has the bags made and these are sold to individual collectors for 2d., or 2c, each. The collectors are then given a large number of printed labels sponsoring the organisation concerned to attach to the bags which have been sold to them for 2c each.

Up to this point everything sounds all right, but the fact is that a great deal of pirating of bags takes place. It is quite possible for a householder to find a bag thrown over his fence bearing a motif such as "The Multiple Handicapped Association of Queensland" and in all good faith he will fill the bag believing that that is where his donation is going. However, the next day some pirate comes along and whips the bag away and it goes to some other charity.

I am drawing the Minister's attention to this matter because, of my own knowledge, this sort of thing goes on. There is a good deal of pirating in the rag-collecting business. What happens does not affect the amount being paid to the charity because it is paid at a fixed monthly rate so these pirates think they are justified in acting in this fashion. After all, they are paying the Association £20, or £25, a month, whatever it is, so they pinch somebody else's bags. One fellow told me, "Anyhow, what we miss out on we pinch back from somebody else."

The thing that concerns me is the relation­ship with the public because the public believes that this collecting firm is the repre­sentative of, or the authorised collector for, the charity concerned. I remember receiving at one stage a letter from Gympie with a very bitter complaint to the effect that my collector-mine, as chairman of the Multiple Handicapped Association-had stolen an electric iron from her back veranda when it was placed next to the bag of rags which had been put out by her.

Mr. Bennett: What did you do with it?

Mr. RAMSDEN: I certainly did not refer it to the hon. member for South Brisbane for legal advice or I would still be fighting the

case. What I did was to take the matter up with the Commissioner of Police. An investi­gation was carried out, and ultimately the iron was restored to its owner. The point is, however, that a great deal of loss of public image resulted because my Association, which is very jealous of its reputation, was the subject of an accusation that one of its agents had stolen the iron, or mistakenly taken it; I would not know which.

That is one case. In another case I received a violent letter of protest from over the New South Wales border. From memory, I think it was from Grafton. A woman wrote to me complaining bitterly tha~ he£ so,~; had worked for my collector-agam, my col­lector-who had left town owing him £6 in wages. She asked what I intended to do about it.

These things reflect morally against ~he valuable contribution and the good standmg of associations that are doing a. good joJ;> ~f charitable work in the commuruty, a_nd 1t ~s these abuses to which I draw attentlon th1s morning. It is because of them that I. a.r_n saying these things. It seems to m.e that 1t 1s a case of first in, best dressed; 1f my bag is put out somebody e~se might turn up to collect it. I should hke to say, howeve!, that the collectors do not pirate one another s day-to-day territory. They all .know w~ere each collector and each firm 1s operatmg. How they do this, I do not know. Apparently they have some code whereby they know.

As I say they do not pirate one a~other's daily territory. What does happen. 1s that the ba<>s are delivered today to be p1cked up tomorr~w but tomorrow might be a wet day, the ~ollector's truck might .break. down, family sickness might prevent hrs callmg, or any one of a number of things could happen so that the coLlector does not get back. On the other hand, a householder ~ight . n<?t be able to fill the bag at the tlme 1t 1s delivered but will put it out a week or a fortnight' lruter, and then it is stole_n: When a collector does pirate a bag, reahsmg that he has done the wrong thing he goes to the trouble of placing his own label ov~r the authentic label. This shows thaJt he obviously knows that he has done something that is completely wrong-indeed, illegal.

Franchises are quite e.asy to get. I have already pointed out that very few growing charities can afford to resist these contractors. By the use of the name of a charity these people can collect a great deal, regardless of how much or how little they have to pay out in return.

I can give another instance of what happens. Mr. Trudgian, the superintendent of the Brisbane City Mission, rang me a few weeks ago to complain very bitterly that a bag that had been specifically left out on a veranda for the Brisbane City Mission had been stolen by my co11ector. This also became the subject ·Of a police inquiry.

860 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

I cite these instances to indicate that there is a great deal in the rag trade that needs c~eaning. up. T~e collection of rags is very b1g busmess, w1th huge profits involved. It m~y seem that I am talking about only very mmor matters, but to show that I am not I point out that when the owner of a shed­not a very big shed at that-which was full of rags was asked about the value of the contents he said, "There is £30,000 worth of rags in that shed." The house-to-house collection of old rags involv,es a colossal ~nancial turnover. .l't is a most rewarding JOb, even for the collectors. It may intere~t hon. mem~ers to know that every bag a collector p1cks up from a house is worth $1.00 to him yet the charity concerned receives only a paltry $40.00 or $50.00 a month.

Mr. Bromley: What is the present contract with your association?

Mr. RAMSDEN: Fifty dollars a month. The collectors sell the rag to the contractors for 5c a lb. which, as I have said, represents $1 a bag to the collectors.

There are five of these contracting firms operating in Brisbane. They are-

Miszkowski and Waste Trading Co., 59 Holdsworth Stre.et, Coorparoo; Waste Products-Q!d W1pers, 184 Flower Street Northgate; Von Nida Textiles Pty. Ltd.: Hedley Park, Brisbane; Cibanco Products Pty. Ltd., Baldock Street Moorooka· Hygienic Wipers, 199 Cav~ndish Road' Coorparoo. '

f'hey _are the people who have the rag trade m Bnsbane completely sewn up.

I make it perfectly clear that when I ~arne these firms I am not saying that they m themselves are dishonest. I have already made it abundantly clear that the people who act as coll"C!ors are not responsible to them. They are pa1d purely on a commission basis of so much a P<Yt;nd weight on what they c~llect. I have d1scussed this with people With whom I have entered into contracts and they have told me that they have little or no control over the persons who do the actual collecting.

In addition to the people who collect regularly, there are a number of freelances. They are the real pirates in the business. The freelances are a mixture. Some of them are unemployed; some are on holidays trying to make an extra "quid"; some are on shift work and travel around the suburbs when they are not at work. They drive around the suburbs in utilities pirating bags of clothing that the recognised collectors would normally pick up later in the day, or the next day.

Mr. Bennett: How long have you been condoning this sort of thing?

Mr. RAMSDEN: If the hon. member were here more often, and used the poor ability with which he practices in court, he would know from his own experience that I have

had a lot to say about this subject over a long time. But I would not expect him to know that.

These stolen rags-and I emphasise the word "stolen" because they are nothing other than stolen-are very easy to sell for 5 cents a lb. at any of the dealers' depots. The collectors are aware of all this, but from their point of view the freelances so far have not become sufficiently numerous to seriously threaten their profits or their liveli­hood, for this is a very big and profitable business.

I speak on this subject because the organised collection of this type of waste seems to me to be very disjointed and unsatisfactory. Pirating i:s an established fact and will continue to be so unless the law is strengthened. Theft from the Brisbane City Mission will continue until the law is strengthened. In fact, it seems obvious to me that unless descriptions and numbers of vehicles are observed, the policing of such thefts will be quite impossible.

There is another point, namely, that when somebody pirates someone else's bag-and this is a regular practice-in order to conceal the pirating the bag is emptied in bulk into a truck and the bags are dumped elsewhere so that if the person involved is questioned there is no evidence of a bag.

Mr. Bennett: Have the police ever inves­tigated this?

Mr. RAMSDEN: I wish the hon. member for South Brisbane would listen to what I am saying. I would not tell him because he would use anything he heard to his own advantage. I suggest to the hon. member that he make his own inquiries if he is interested in this subject.

Mr. R. Jones: What is your attitude­honour amongst thieves?

Mr. RAMSDEN: I suggest to the hon. member that he speak for himself, and his party.

In these instances, waste clothing and rags intended for the Brisbane City Mission, the Mater Hospital, the Salvation Army, St. Vincent de Paul-all of which collect on their own behalf and sell to woollen mills and the like goods that cannot be used by needy persons-are merged in bulk and lose any identification that the bags might have provided when they were originally stolen. I suggest to the Minister that it should be an offence under this legislation for a collector to have rags or clothing in bulk in his truck in order to prevent or make more difficult, outright theft.

I believe, too, that a police check should be made of every man who seeks to earn a living as a rag collector. The very nature of his work gives him access to back yards and enclosed premises; it gives him the right to walk up onto somebody's back veranda when the lady of the house is not home, and if he is found there he has the perfect

861 Collections Bill [12 OCTOBER] Collections Bill

answer: "The lady said she would leave the bag on the back veranda and I was looking for it." The very nature of this work means that people of unknown character are entitled to enter, and can justify their entering, those areas.

:Mr. Bennett: You know that they do not police-check prison warders before they appoint them.

Mr. RAMSDEN: And it is obvious that they do not police-check barristers before they appoint them.

These collectors, as I say, have this oppor­tunity of entering enclosed yards. Where this opportunity exists for a person who has not been checked there could be a tempta­tion for him to commit an offence.

A second point arises from my study of this subject. Some of the collectors seem to be licensed yet others are not. On at least one occasion in the past "Sunday Truth" has reported intimidatory tactics used by some rag collectors in their battle for waste products. Whether this is so, I am not prepared to assert. All I can say is that no evidence of intimidation has been pre­sented to me in any investigations I have made.

Relative to this Bill I mention the Second­hand Wares Act of 1921, which defines "second-hand wares" as rags, old wearing apparel, and drapery goods. That Act requires that collectors be licensed, that they be over 16 years of age, that they can operate as collectors in any part of the State, that they must wear an identifying badge when collecting, that they may operate only between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m., that they must have displayed on their vehicle the full name and address of the owner, that only two persons who are licensed can operate and man the vehicle, that they must not enter premises without permission and can be ordered to leave when directed to do so, and that they must not use offensive language or behaviour. A second conviction under that Act can result in the collector's licence being revoked.

Time is drawing on and I suggest that, either by way of amendment to the Act or by way of regulation, no person be permitted to engage in the occupation of rag collector unless he has been approved by the Police Department as a person of reputable character, and, secondly, that a person in charge of a collecting vehicle will be guilty of an offence if he has unbagged rags on such vehicle.

(Time expired.)

:Mr. HANLON (Baroona) C12.44 p.m.): As the Acting Leader of the Opposition pointed out, the matters that the Minister indicated are in the Bill are certainly overdue for review. That has been fortified by the remarks of the hon. member for Merthyr, who told us of the experience he has had with organisations working for good causes.

In introducing the measure the Minister said that, to a great extent the State had overtaken most of the pressing charitable needs at present. I do not think he intended to convey exactly that. Compared with a generation ago the State has more or less rested on its oars and has not met many of those needs which are now covered by charitable or community organisations.

:Mr. Hughes: We have provided more for schools, the aged, and youth than ever before.

:Mr. HANLON: I am not dealing with this politically. I noticed in the Budget debate that every time an Opposition member said anything, Government members seemed to suffer from a guilty conscience and started going off like recording machines about what they are doing. No doubt they are sensitive about the extra money they are taking from the taxpayers. I am referring to a period covering generations including years of office-10 years or so--of each Government.

Before the war Governments were, gener­ally speaking, obliged to meet, as far as they could, all these needs, because most people were then not as well off as they are today or were 10 years ago, if that time has any political relevance. There was not in the hands of the public sufficient money to respond to appeals, so that in many respects what was done had to be done almost exclusively by Governments. The result was that unfortunately many calls were left unanswered. As the Acting Leader of the Opposition pointed out, many people who today have developed organisations to support specific causes were then obliged to sink into general oblivion.

As the community has become more affluent and as the population has increased (and, with it, the number of people with disabilities or special needs), private organi­sations and charitable groups have entered the field in their own right in quite a sub­stantial way. On the other hand, the State has not maintained the same rate of contri­bution; more and more has it tended to leave e·ven very important needs purely to public appeals. I instance the appeal to aid cancer research. This is the type of project that requires a vast sum of money and is recog­nised by all as something quite fundamental and urgent. In these matters, however, Governments have tended to make com­paratively trifling contributions. The Acting Leader of the Opposition mentioned the Queensland Ambulance Transport Brigade. Although this is an organisation basic to the health services of the State, it is still receiv­ing only a very niggardly subsidy from the Government.

The Children's Hospital Foundation Appeal for the establishment of a children's hospital is another example of a project in which the State has not played its part. The objectionable thing that arises in such cases is that because the appeal committees, whose work I greatly acknowledge and admire,

862 Collections Bill [ASSEMBLY] Collections Bill

have not been successful in raising, in the eyes of the Government, sufficient to finance the work originally planned, the Government will make no move at all to carry out what it undertook to do.

Many anomalies arise in Government sub­sidies. All hon. members are aware, from items in the Press and submissions made to them, of the peculiar position that the Townsville Sub-normal Children's Welfare Association finds itself in through having to offer to return some money to the State because the amount it received from the State deprived it, because of some rather harsh interpretation by the Federal Govern­ment, of a greater entitlement. I am sure that the hon. member for Townsville North will take the opportunity to present that matter in greater detail. I use it merely as an example of the anomalies that arise when the State tends to enter this field not whole­heartedly but on a very restricted basis.

I commend the Minister's intention to try to simplify the clerical work associated with the requirements of the legislation. As the Acting. Leader of the Opposition pointed out, there IS a dual benefit to be gained from making the necessary forms and require­ments as simple as possible. In the first place, it will assist those who have to com­ply with the regulations and complete the forms. Many of these people do this work voluntarily and are not necessarily well acquainted with what is required.

Secondly, there is a saving in time to departmental officers. They always treat these matters very sympathetically, and if they have to send forms back and ask people for fresh submissions, it takes up their time unnecessarily. Consequently, any simplifica­tion that can be introduced by the Govern­ment in the regulations and the forms that have to be completed will benefit both the organisations concerned and the Govern­ment.

I wish to raise with the Minister at this stage of the Bill the question whether, in considering such things as door-to-door appeals and street appeals, thought has been given to the possibility of providing some control over the device of endeavouring to get a donation or a direct subscription or to sell art union tickets by making telephone calls. I am not raising this ma:tter personally. Members of Parliament do get a number of calls in this connection, but I have never been inconvenienced by them to such an extent that I would be justified in raising the matter here. However, it is obvious as the Acting Leader of the Opposition 'pointed out, that no individual can meet all the calls made on him by the good causes for which raffles, and so on, are conducted. I am raising the matter because I have received complaints at times from business people both inside and outside my electorate about ·the interruptions that such telephon'e calls cause to their business activities.

One morning before 8 o'clock I receive·d a telephone call from a garage proprietor. He told me that he had been called in three times to answer the telephone and each time the caller was making an appeal of this type. He said he was ·finding it very irritating, particularly when he was trying to serve motorists during the morning peak hour, to go to the telephone and find th&t some­body was asking him for a donation or to purchase art union tickets or something of that sort. Perhaps he may have :regarded it differently at some other time of the day. I thought that he was exaggerating when he said that he had received three phone calls before 8 o'clock in the morning, but within a couple of days I received a complaint from another garage proprietor and a little later a complaint from the proprietor of a mixed store, both of whom voiced similar complaints.

I do not suggest that people should be denied the opportunity of trying to secure donations or sell tickets in this way, but I think the practice possibly could get a little out of hand unless reasonable control is exercised.

Mr. Hughes: Most of these calls are from commercial organisations, not from the charities themselves.

Mr. HANLON: I think that is an ap!}ro­priate interjection. It is in line with the comment made by the hon. member for Merthyr that very often bad public relations work reacts against the charity concerned. I am not chiding the people who carry out commercial services required by charities, but some of the criticism does rub off onto the charities.

Certainly the Postmaster-General's Depart­ment would not want to re&trict this practice because it brings in additional revenue, and I cannot imagine that the Federal authorities would take any steps to control it. Therefore, the question is whether, under a measure such as the proposed Bill, the State Govern­ment can provide some form of surveillance or whether it is legally possible for it to do so. I do not know how it could be applied. Perhaps the Minister will be able to enlighten hon. members on the point.

Finally, ·I have some reservations about the proposals relating to Melbourne Cup sweeps. Unfortunately, from time to time specific complaints are made that necessitate some investigation being made or action being ta·ken by the authorities. It was an incident such as that from Roma, I think, that originally brought before the Minister's attention the need for some form of legality for Melbourne Cup sweeps. On the other hand, I believe that many anomalies are created when one begins to try to legalise things such as this.

I recognise that the Melbourne Cup is a national institution, but perhaps people might now be justified in exerting pressure for permission to run similar sweeps on such local events as the Doomben Ten Thousand

863 Collections Bill [13 OcTOBER] Questions

and so on. In dealing with the Melbourne Cup, although I recognise its special signific­ance, it is not the only event on which sweeps are conducted by organisations provided for under the Act. Possibly I may have mis­understood the Minister; I do not know whether he is actually going to identify the Melbourne Cup in this Bill or whether he intends to have some form of general approval.

Dr. Delamothe: Only the Melbourne Cup; it is a national event.

Mr. HANLON: That is what brought this matter to a head, but I have the reservation that once we start to try to bring legality to a matter because of one particular institu­tion we get into difficulties. It is often said that hard cases make bad law. Perhaps that could apply here. I feel that the conse­quences of this could be-and I think it is logical-that in similar circumstances people will want the same privilege in regard to local events.

I was pleased to see that the Minister adopted the wise course of giving approval to what he calls the "office sweep" without the need for a permit or anything else. At this stage of the Bill, I leave the matter at that.

Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (12.57 p.m.): It would appear that the Minister has conducted a very close and detailed clinical examination of the Charitable Collections Act, and in this measure is now setting out to prescribe adequate treatment for the patient to ensure his complete recovery. As has been indicated by the hon. member for Bulimba and other speakers, the attitude of the Opposition in this matter is that although we see some merit in what has been explained to us by the Minister, as it appears to be a Bill of some magnitude and will set a certain pattern for the raising of funds for community work for some years to come, only an examination of the Bill in detail will allow the Opposition to assess its merits or demerits.

Basically, at this introductory stage we indicate our support for a great deal of the Bill's contents. My purpose in rising to speak flows mainly from an answer that the Minister gave in this Chamber to a question by me concerning the amount of money levied by the Department of Justice on appli­cations for permits to conduct raffles, or for fund-raising ventures, or for the registration of various committees as charitable organisa­tions. To me, the Minister's answer was somewhat staggering.

First of all, like the hon. member for Bulimba, I realise the tremendous amount of charitable work that goes into community life. Whether it be in projects on behalf of handicapped persons, on behalf of sporting organisations, or for parents and citizens' associations, there is no doubt that a huge amount of money is raised by various means.

Progress reported. The House adjourned at 1.1 p.m.