Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER 1936

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Stock Routes, Etc., Bill. [30 SEPTEl\iBER.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER, 1936.

Wlr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock. Gi''[JDry), took the ehair at 10.30 a.m.

Ql'ESTIO:\'S. E)IPLOYEES IX RAILWAY DEPARTl\JllXT. Jt:NE,

1936. Mr. BR:\.ND (his), for Mr. \YALKER

(Cooroora), asked the Minister for Trans­port--

·' \Yhat wa3 the numLer of employees in the Raihvay Department in the last pay period in June>, 1936 (a) on open lineR, (b) on construction Y"

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC LA:NDS (Hon. P. Pease, Hcrbcrt), for the MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT (Hon. ,J. Daeb, JhuulinqiJUrm). replied-

" (a) 16.856 (includes temporary hands and employees in Refreshment Room& D1·anch); (11) 123."

ALLOWANCES TO POLICE FOR TR\FFIC DT~TY.

NL·. BRAND (lsis), asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

" 1. \Vhat allowance do nolice officers of th" Traffic Department receive in respect of traflic dutv?

"2. Do such officf'rs receiYe the t:.~affic allowance whether or not they actually do traffic \York'

"3. Do the Roma Street police officers doing traffic work receive any allow­ance?"

Th" SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A=""D HO:\IE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Ha:1lon. Ithaca). replied-

" 1. OnP shilling; per day. less shtu­tory reduction.

"2. All uniforn1 non-con11ni~sioned officers and constables attached to the Traffic Branch rocoi Ye the allowance, when on actual duty, but not on leave.

"3. No, except when attached to the Traffic Branch."

TRAXSFERS FROM lJXE'\!PLOY:IfENT RELIEF FtrXD.

Mr. MAHER (lT'est J!oreton), asked the Treasurer-

" Adverting to his answers to my qnes­tions on 17th and 23rd instant. on which Estimate do~s he propose to give the required information relative to the amount to be transferred this ,-ear from the Unemployment Relief Fur;d to con­solidated revenue, and as to rates of interest charged to the Unemployment RcliPf Fund on subsidies granted to loc>tl authorities?"

'l'ho TREASURER (Hon. \V. Forgar> Smith, Markay), rc•plied---

" This mrrttcr mav be appropriately discussed when tlw Tmst Estimates of the Department of LaLour and Industry ar0 undr•r the consideration of the Com­mittee of Supply."

F'INANCr ·\L ScPPLE).lEXT To '; TELEGRAPH 't

NEWSPAPER POSTED TO KEPPEL ELECTOR".

Mr. DANIEL (Kcp7Jtl), aske<l th,; Premier-

" J n reference to the financial supple­ment of the 'Tcl<'graph,' but with nmc pages missing, which \vere posted in 'Telegraph' wrappers to tire electors of

650 Papers. [ASSEMBLY.] Stock Routes, Etc., Bill.

Keppel during the course of the by­declicn at which I was clcctr-d, was any payrnent n1r1 de for this :if'rvicc by any CoYt>l'nnH'nt clcnartmellt: If sD, by what department and what was the co'-t ?"

The PRE:Lv1IER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith. .1/ackuy), replied~~

"No.n

BRO.\DCAST SPEECH BY PRE~IIER.

Mr. DAJ\'IEL Prerr1ier-

(!{ rppel). asked the

"In rcf0rencc to his broadca't speech over 4BC relative to the Qnceucland Budget on Sundav evening last, has any pay1nent been 1nade, or is any pa.) mf'nt to be made. in respect of th·is broadc"st bv anv Government dopa rtment? If so. b:,- wh.at dPpartmcnt and what amount?"

The l'RE'YIIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jiarkay), replied-

" Ko. The hon. member has no title to information where public £uncle are not involved. I am fully aware of the dforts being made by the opponents of the Government to preYent the facts of Labour's case being presented faithfully to the public. Journalists and others have he en even threatened with victi­misation for pursuing their professions honourably. In this the Opposition are doomed to failure."

....-\RTIC'LIT. IN "TELEGRAPH" :r\EWAPAPEfL

~'fr. D_\1\'IF.L (K nmel). asked the Premier-

''Is any payment b.v any Governn1fmt department invoh-cd in respect of the article in the 'Telegraph' of 22nd instant relative to taxation and the Budget, including his photograph and signature? If so, by what department and what amount? "

The PREMIER (Hon. \V. Forgan Smith. Mackay). replied-

" No. This is an example of decent journalism, on the part of the ' Tele­graph,' in order that people should know the facts without distortion. I advise the hon. member, in discussing the Budget. to adopt the same course."

" Eco~O}IIC NEws " MATTER PuBLISHED ~~ "TELEGRAPH" NKWSPAPER.

:'\fr. DANIEL Ill eppel), asked the Premier-

" In reference to the matter extracted from ' Economic :"1' ews.' contained in the ' Te]pgntph' of lOth instant, was any paymPnt made by any Government depa rtmcnt in respect of this matter? If so, which department, and what was the cost? "

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith. J/ arkay). replied-­

" No."

PAPERS. The following papers were laid on the

tal1le, and ordm·ed to be printed. FiftPenth Report on the Creation, Inscrip­

tion. and Issnl.' of CoYernment Inscribed Stock.

Fift\·-first Report on the Creation. Inscrip­tion, and Issue of Stock.

Report of the Department of Public Works for the \·car 1935-1936.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

Proclarnatiun under the Fa.·rnor;:; Assistance (Debts Adiustmr•nt) Act of 1935.

llcgnlations !\Ios. 489 awl 490 under the Primar.; Producers' Organisation and 1\Torketing Acts. 1926 to 1935.

PEESO:'\'AL EXPLAXATIOK 1\Ir. W. J. COPLEY (JJulim/)(l) [10 . .35

a.nL-] ~ by lea Ye: l wish to rnake a per­sonal explan:ttion. I haYc come frorn hc~pi­tal this morning to give a categorical denial to c0rtain allegation.s that have been mad,, aguinst me during the past few davs. I bclicYe it is nece•sary that I give this cate­gorical denial in order to carry on Ill_Y rlntics as a lcgishtor of this State unbl such time as the defamation action for £5,000 damages which I shall initiate to-dav is cleared up. I wish to say I have been tra­duced by a liar, a coward, and a perjurer, alHI that about sPven and a-half years ago I was introduced by this man, whose name is Baker, to a man by the name of Hughes, an alleged expert in hand-writing, a friend of his, at hi, place of business in Eli7.abeth street, Bl'is bane.

POLICE SIIPERA:'\":'\"UATIO:'\" DECLARA­TORY BILL .

THIRD READING.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A:'-<D HOME AFF \IRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, ltlwra): I move-

" That the Bill be now read a third tin1e."

Question put and passed.

STOCK ROUTES IMPROVEMENT AND ANI1'.1AL AND VEGETABLE PESTS DESTRUCTION BILL.

SECOND READING.·~-REsu;1PTIO'!'l oF DEBATE.

Question stated-" That the Bill be now rcoad a second tirne."

Mr. YIAHER (West Jioreton) [10.38 a.m.l: It is extraordinary that we should have beforc the House a Bill to consolidate the law relating to local authorities. which the Minister has stated considerably widen" their powers, and at the identical moment to have also before the House a Bill that seeks to deprive them of powers already vested in them by the present Government.

The improvement of stock routes and the control of animal and vegetable pests are undoubtedly very important _questions, and call for the close cons1deratwn of anyone who is interested in matters affecting land and stock and the improvement and main­tenance o'f our groat stock routes. It is highly important that anything that tends to improve our stock routes and the control of animal and vegetable pests shc;mld have the ;-cry closest consideration of this House.

The control of stock routes, Jl/[r. Speaker, was the subject of an inYestigation bv tho Mooro Gm·ernment in 1930. The unsatJsfac­tory position that then preYailed when stock routes were under the control of the Depart­tncnt of Public Land . .;; called irnperatively for adion. Tho Go\'l'rnmont of the day apr~oillir-d .a l'O._ a1 connnission, con~igting of HwroughJy eompPtcnt n1cn, to explore f'Ycry

Stock Routes Imprm·emcn.', Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pest;~ Destruction Bill. 661

aYenue of the question. They made a report, whjch \Yas adopt·:d, and legislation was car­ried through this House Yeding the control of stock routP..;; in cli~trict in1provc1nent boards.

The Bill now before the House proposes to rcYert to what is tantamount to control by the Departmer~t of Public Lands. Cer­tai11ly, a buard \\ill have eutrLrul, but the members of that bmnd will be drawn more or L";; fron1 offic~~r~ of the dPpartn1L'llt. It is, thcrdorc, practically a reversion to the method of control of stock routes that operated priot· to 1930. That sy~'.tcrn as obvionsly defective, and the corrumsswn rocommcnclcd the c'tablishmcnt of the dis­tric-t improYcment boards, which although there may have been minor complaints, on the .,-hole p;av" f'atisfaction.

From my own knowledge of the districts whore those district improvement boards '\Vero in cxist(~ncc thev 1vere g1vina the utmost satisfaction to t:he stockownor; con­cerned. rrho systen1 ·was YPry simple, an(}. was a forrn 0£ loud g-overnrnent. In any <":tse. they were ha-eel on the sound principle of local control. Queensland is a big country. and the principle of local control of stock routPs, and the -destruction of t1oxious weeds and anirnal pests is one that nan bo n1oro corr1potently supervis8d and carried out by local mci1, who knuw the problrrns they arc fighting agai nf!t, than by a body in Brisbane. It is unfortunate that in r11atters of this kind men who haYe to spend their liYes in the far ·western and Ccntral-\Ve,tcrn areas should have to submit to dictation from the centre of government rather than that thm~ shoul-d control their own boards Loce 1 l;oarcls could deal with the need for improvement as it became evident, and would applv their local know­lcdp;c to the problem. '

The Government are departing from tlmt important principle, which is a pity becauso the districc improvement boards ' were a '-·cry econom:ical arrangement, and eased the btJrclcn of cost on the stockowner. This Bill will tend to make a heavy inct·case in 1 h0se c:>-~ts. There is no doubt that the hoards v~-ere econon1ically ruu, because men served on then1 in an honorary capacity, and the Government's proposal must ~reatly increase adrninistr:1tive costs. There 1:) is no doubt that the appointment of a general superintonclcnt, impo~tors, oflic<ers, and such workmen as may be needP-d un-der the terms of this Bill will involve very h,igh adminis­trative costs. That was not the case under the old S'\':·lien1, and it marks a deprrrture from sound economical handling of the problem. The royal commission to which J have refprrorl had this to say in their report-and it is worth emphasising on the second reading L•f this Bill-

" After the mr.'t careful consideration we a re convinced that thoro is onl v one way of accomplishing these objects (0ffertivc and econornical control of rab­bits, d'ngocs, and stock routes), and that is to make each ]and agent's district, throughout the grazing areas of the ~tatc. nu t 1rgani ntion unit for adminis­tering these related matters. The land agents' districts affedc·d arc Barca1dinc, Blackall, Boulia, Burketmvn, Clermont, Cloncurry, Charleville, Charters Towers, Cunnarnulla, D<:tlby, Goondivvindi, Hughondon, Jundah, Long-roach, Roma, St. George, Spring~ure, Taroorn, and

\Yinton. Tho comrnhsion rccon11uencted a district improYement boar-d for each district, to n1cet rnonthly, con5i:;:ting of the land commi"iouor (chairman) and t\vo elected stockowners."

It will be noted that the commi,,sion empha­sised tho impottance of local contn•l. ;\fattcrs relating- to dingoes, rabbits, and stock routes require constant attention, an-d not isolated attention given by a central authoritv and bv Government officials who ha vo other dutiCs to perforn1. That corn­mission condemned the local authoritv con­trol, and now this Bill creates a central control, and makes no 11rovision for the representation of those directly and locally interested.

The queotion of pro\ idinp; finance to improve stock routes should be considered fro1n a national angle. In his policy speech for 1935, the Prcmio1· said-

" The Governn1cnt is apprt:ciativc of the heavy losses sustaitwd by the pastoral industrv due to drought conditions, and has set moving a proposal to provide water on stock routes, under an efficient ~ystmn of control.)'

Ho made it Yerv clear that he proposed to launch a scheme for the improvement of stock routes, and the undoubted implication was­he did not say it in ro many words-that thf· Government would JWovide the money. The inevitable conclusion to be drawn from the polie'Y speech by the general public is that the Government inlcnc!cd to finance the scheme. I coutend that a stock route is just as important to this coilntry as a rail way or a main road. T'o-dav. loan funds are­being- oxpondccl upon ra~lway conotruction and maintenance, and for the building of main roads, but ,it is equally important to the people that "tock routes should b'-' similarly treated. The prooperity of Queens­land depends very largely upon the wool industry, and if it were not for it the Trcasnn~r would haYo presented a more dismal lluclg-et than the one he read t\YO weeks ago. The wool industry 1neans every­thing- to Queensland, but the Bill makes no proyision at all for Government expenditure to improve the stock routes along which our sheep n1ust travel, although rnoncy Lan be fotmd for less important projects. The stock routes should be brought to a state of reasonable efficienev. and tho Crown shonld accept a part of 'the financial respon­sibility.

The royal con1n1lP-;ion t}Ja.t was appoiHted in 1930 to examine this problem said-

" National considerations, no less than private interests, demands a sound and progrcssi vo stoLk route policy.''

I do n~t think that any hon. member who studies this subject will disagree with that C'Olldu~.,ion. ]]ow far is the .:-VIinistcr going in that direction? Quite a lot has been said in this House, and by the Minister in the Press, to the effect that the Government are finding £140,000 for the irnpronmwnt of stock routes, and it has gone ont to the pastorali,,ts all over Quocnsland that this HUDl is, being rnaJe available by the Govcrn­nlent. .Naturally, the pastorali.-3b and tho public generally have accepted tbo ,,tate­rncnt as being < orrect., and arc under t.ho impn-:s.::.ion that the Go\·ornment haYP been gmwrous cno11gh to proYide that sun1, and the Government haYc received a good deal

i1Ir. Maker.]

652 Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

of kudos from this misstatement of the posi­tion. Speaking on another stage of the Bill, ho\Ycver, tlJC :-.Iinister adrnitted that the Government had not SDent £140,000, nor had the v anv intention of spending thctt sum theu1:--el~T . ~ They have ad\·ancecl certain rnunuy~ for the pt~rcha ~c of windn1ills to bo ~, t at certain point:S along stock routes for 1 lHHjJoo..c of lli'OYicling 1., ater facilitie::·, bnt it is thL'ir lntet:.tion to get thC' Ill01lC'Y Lack--that i1 ha;:; onlv Lccn ady~;nccJ in amicip:ttion of the ' of ihis Dill, which

hi111 thc• it back b:v ..~_\_ PTPat

to the Govcn1~ncnt frm n :-taterucn L:~ not l)(:-C'n COl'-

rect. TLe SEeR .L\RY FOR PcBLIC LA~DS: That is

not u·ue. \Ye arc only getting half the £14C,OOO that is bcin&r given by the Gm-em­Inent to tho local autlroeitieR. That is quite dc·Jinite.

Mr. MAHER: The hon. gentleman is making a straight-ant. 1:\ift to the local authorities of the rernammg half.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Y ec,

::\lr. T.GLOR: That knocks your case oYer.

:Ylr. MAHER: Ko. There has been a great deal of uncertainty in this matter. Laege surns of nlOllt'.Y have been constantly talked aboLtt by tlw ::\linister. The sum of £140 000 has been mentioned b·,- him. Yet we !~now he h"s only spent a negligible portion of that sum: I was under the nnpres­,;ion that the Munster mtencled to recover the whole of the advance he made by if·,uing precepts 011 local authorities.

There is abwlutoly no limit to the precepts the Minister can levy. Anyone reading the BilL especially as to the obligations of the ::\1ini~h:r in administering its provisions, must come to that conclusion. The Bill provides that the fund established under the Bill may be us<'d for all or any of the following pur­poses:-

Defraying the necessary expenses of administration;

Defraying the cost of erection, comple­tion, irnproYen1ent, or n1aintcnanco of rabbit-proof fences;

'Defraying the cost of the destruction of rabbits;

Odraying the cost of the dc,·truction of dingoe-; and other aniu1al pests;

1!efraying the cost of the de,truction of any yermin;

Defraying the cost of the destruction of noxious \Voeds;

Lefraying tleo cost of clearing scrub, ring-­badong, and suckering, etc.;

Defraying- the cost of works or measures for the intproven1cnt of a district;

Defraying- the cost of purchase or manu­facture of poison, and poi~on baits;

The payment of any outotanding- liahili­tic., of mbbit boards, and dingo boards;

To\vard.-; the r(;pay1nont to the Tn'asurer of any moneys adv.:wccd by the Trea.,;:1Hcr, to~.._.t.hcr with interest thercon a~ fixed by the rrreasurcr.

that to carr~7 out the pro­. this Bill will alJwrb

of the State. The to a 1no.~t extra­

on! i :H1 ry progT:nnme of \York. l arn qui tu

[l!lr. Jlaher.

satisfied, to use the }iinister's tcrrn, that local authoritif'-; 1\ ho do not '" function.'' and [ll'e brought -within tlH' scope of the' BilJ, will find that th<'v arc in for a ,-en- difficult time in financing~ iho precepts that n1ay be is:-:ued to tht'lll to coYcr the co~t of such work.

])Jr. FoLEY: You are prcstnning thjs '.\'Ork vvill all be: done 111 six or tn cl Ye n1011th

do not kno\V how tlle l•Jini:;tcr \>:ill hin1sel£ to the problen1. r atn .-:ati8rlccl that if he adrnin1~ters it in a way to get results, will absorb the \Yhole of Lh(' of State. aud C'Ycn th"n fuil to re,ultc;,

l\lr. FoLEY: The Yrork cannot be carried our in t ,,e]ve months.

::\Tr. J\L\.HEE: Of course, it cannot. A l 'lTgc suu1 of 1noncy will be neco,,sary to ( an·y out tho v;·ork in the a1nbitious Inanncr prm>iclcd under the BilL Thoro are JJO

limits to tho precepts that may be imposed on lo< al autltorities. These local authoritio.s will hav no conil'ol of oxpcnditnre and no reprcsenbtion on the body that will admini­ster the Act. They will have no say whatso ever as to ho ,,. the moru'y shall be expended. Lor·a] authoritie· wiJJ be in an even worsu position than they are in regard to hospital bo ·~ r-ds. They ha vc sonte reprcBcntation on ho ·pi tal boards. but unJer this Bill they have no rcprcsc·nlation whatever on the body which governs them. The ~1mister, or the board s.•t up by him, can do what they please and embark on any expenditure they like, and the local authority has to pay. What a democratic principle!

:Yir. FoLEY: Are you endeavouring to create a panic?

, :VIr . .'\1AHER: I am trying to put up a JUst case for local authorities who will be call0d upon to meet tho pr~cepts without havmg- any say 1n the expenditure or control of the board.

Mr. I-IlLTOK : They eau do the work if thev wish. '

Mr. :YIAHER : That does not get over the possibilities I have dwelt upon. Local authoritiPs will be WL'll advised, if theY are functioning as the Minister says, to carry out tlio work themselves, and thus avoid being broug-ht under the now Act.

We have to deal with the Bill as it is, and it appears to me as thoug-h the Minister "·ill bring these local authorities nnder it whether the.y like it or not. For some reason the hon. gentleman desires to get a grea.ter measure of controL There is a principle im-olved there, Can hon. members opposite fairly advocate that a local authoritv that will become involved under the pro.;;isions of this Bill should be called upon to pay precepts to meet expenditure levied by a board or a Minist8!·. when it ha' no say as to how the money is to be spent and no representation ou the board that levies it?

Mr. FoLEY: Those local authorities likely to be affected should have already done certain work on their own initiative.

Mr. MAI-IER: I am not prepared to say tha.t in son1e instances Joca1 authorities have not been lax, bnt a very drastic and unjust claw.c i;J this Bill enables the .'\1inister to lovv upon local authorities in the way I hal-e stated. "\ precept can be arbitr 'ri:y issu('<l and there' ls no limit to the charge~ on the people.

Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill. 653

On the initiation of this Bill the Minister made a very plausible case. He said tl1at the Government \Yerc anxious to i1nprove stock routes, and he made it appear that i he Bill "·as quite innocuous; but, as a nHttter of fact, it contaim priuciplcs that place it in the category of extraordinary Bills.

Another important point is that the Minis­ter 1nay as "ess on the carr~,·ing cajktcity of <t propert_,-, althougl! that 11roperty is unstockC'd 01· padly siockccl. That is '..::ry unfair. brr<:LU"ic there arc many ne1v settlers who ha vo to stock up gradunJly, and old settlers and selectors sometimes hasc their stock wiped out by drought. The clause aln1ost arnounts to a capital tax. It is a very unjust principle that provid<'S that if a man has stock wholly or partially wiped out by drought, or if a man is battlin::; along and is still only partly stocked, the Minister can cornc along a.nd assess his property on it< full carrying capacity.

The provision dealing with stock on stock routes running through a holding is abs,,rd. It provides that where a stock route is not fenced as such, but is enclosed as part of a holding, the paddock through which it passes shall not be deliberately overstocked. In order to keep the stock in a large pad­dock grazing on the stock route, it would be necessary to employ a shepherd. The stockowner realises the need to have feed on stock routes. He knows the feelings of his neighbours in that respect, and is aware that they require feed for their stock when they are going through his holding. Is it likely that, in a large paddock, where th••re is a stock route that is not fenre<:l, he would concentrate his stock on eating down the grass on the actual stock route?

Mr. O'KliEFE: At times they do it.

Mr. MAHER: That is ridiculous. I have had more experience than the hon. member, and I know that is not tlw case. That is sometimes the case in connection with stock routes that are fenced off, because the owners of stock " pirate" the feed on those routes, but that never haiJpens in the case of an unfenced stock route running through a large holding. The stockowner's sheep Ol' cattle graze over the whole paddock and feed over the stock rout•e egually with the rest of the paddock, and, as I said before, it would necessitate the employment of a shepherd to keep the ,;tock grazing every dav on the actual stock route.

Dingo dc,truction is also included nnder the Bill, and tho Minister again has all the powc•l\S. He can decide whether a lessee of a ci1ttle property is taking reasonablo :-.tep:'i to poison diugoes on Iris ho_lding, and if not carrv out such work at h1s expense. Din<>O('S roam in packs and travel con­:::lde~ablc distance~. It is pos;;;ible that an in~pcdor or supcrint<~ndent under -r;llis BiJl tnight alTive on a l1olding and hear dingoes hmdiHg at nig:ht on that property, and take ~on1e action against the lessee in such cir­curnstancc'_, vvh<?rcas if th2 official ·were to conw along a "\YCek latr.>r that pack of clj11goes 1nio·ht be 30 or 40 n1ilcs a\vav. Dingoes 1n; ycry plentiful to-day. _A· landoYdiCr has a 1 Jack of dlngoc~ howling H bout his

for thtcC' or fonr cl:1vs and thPn They may not b0 .]Jcarcl Hffrt1n

1nonth. ,,-h, n "l that ~rrnJc' or pnck arc roanu•rs.

rl· 111

Bill.

of t1u• arrtl, 1hn1 \Yill be

1dH.'l'1' -.onH' ni the

pastoml holdings include nnfenced ot· only partly fencPcl paddocks. It iJ po"ible, there­fore, that a rnan migLt be punished in t.he terms of this Dill, althoL<gh ho is uot .actually culpable.

;\lini,tcr abo takes power to employ holding pPrmits :md rmy them such

wages and allo 'ances as he thinks fit. 1t is 1ny- experience that lando1vnel's arc onl.Y too glacl to have .c,calper.3 con1o along and destroy dlngof's on their properties, :;:o long as ihe,· aru good. solid, local nwn kno1vn io thcru, V alld in IYhmu the:, ha Ye confidence. Tho principle when'by th~· ::viinister can employ scalpns and pay them wog'" mod al1owanrc,~ he think~ Ftt is 0ntirely 1XfOllb. \Vha.t is u<sc of paying a n1an \Yagt..'S to get dingoes? If be is paid on a we~:kly basi;; he c:1n corne along every fortrugl1t with one dingo and explain to his f>mplo,-er that the dingoes wore pretty scan'<'. Ik would, however, dra\V his wages. The right principle v·ould be to pay so much per scalp, that is, to pay by results. That is the principle adopted in the \Yest, and it iB the right way. When paid b,v result .. , say at 10s. a scalp, a scalper bringing in twenty Sl "lps each week would earn £10 a week. That is an incentive to energetic >vork. 'I'ho system of employing scalpors and paying them on a weekly basis is open to very great abuse. A man could draw his wages without catching any dingoes. Then' is no obligation on him to kill any, aml he cannot be blamed if he says, "\Vel!. this is not a bad job. \Vith one dingo ovcr:v fortnight I mn .achieving remits."

There is no doubt that dingoes are plentiful at the present time, and there is a feeling among stockowncrs that the allowance for scalps should be increased t.o somcthino- in the vicinity of 10s. I am certain from~ my knowledge of the men who engage in the dingo-shooting business that they would wel­come that move. "'With scalps at the pr0sent low price of Ss. scalpers are not inclined to hoth<'r about getting them, They feel that they cannot make a livelihood. With the in~n·cascd amount, such as is proposed in the Bill, there will be an incentive for scalpers to operate, and I am sure that if thev do operate there will be a substantial reduction in the number of dingoes in many districts. They are the cause of great loss to stock owners.

At the initiatory stage of the Bill I raised the quesnon of the poiwn supplied to land holders. Cattlemen have complained to m0 that the noioon thev have obtained from tlw Department of Public Lands has not been PffechYc, in c:thcr IYOnls, not strung enough to make a lull.

The SECRET.\RY FOR Pt'BLJC LAXDS: Are you prepared to test it on yourself?

?dr. J\L\HRR: That might be a good (E'.,,t, but I doubt whether I should be jnstified in going to such lengths to proYe to th" Minister that he needs a rnore effective poicon for the dingoc,, (Laughter.) \t an.-rate, sonw of these eay they haYP bong-ht strychniue from Dcp~rtmcnt of Public Lands for thP clcstntction of diugocs, hut haYc 11ot got re:-mlts. They do not

~Iini::;ter or tl1P (lr-~1artnh'Tlt fm_· ft:( l th:1t pos~ib]y 'f-'tr,vchn1nc i:-.

dc;Jartment that is not Aco fnce-

thP g<•t-

llir. Maher.]

654 Stock Rontrs Improvemen~, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Dcstrnction Bill.

something the :Ylinister could investigate to n1ake sure that he is getting value for hi~ money. vVe know that ,,,amples can bo sent of a cntain specified strength, but if the article is being suptJliecl in bulk thoreaftHr r1ud no anal '":sis is 1nadc to asc('rta in the strength, an'ybody who was dishonestly inclined could make a larger profit by weakening the preparation. Such things havL happened beforP, .and it is possible they arc happening now. I have had com­plaints from several quarters and an investi­gation by the Minister should be worth while.

I now come to the question of the Prickly­pear Land Conunission and the functions it will carry out under the Bill as the authority to take charge of animal and '~<'getablc pesto. T am certain the members of the commission will find that they are t·onfrontecl by a much bigger problem in the C!·aclicaiion of noxious weeds than they were in destroying the prickly-pear, big as that problem was. It was not the Prickly­pear Land Connnissi0n that olin1inatcd prickly-pear. It was the work carried out by the Commonwealth Council for Scientific and Inclustnal Research.

'l'hc SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LA);DS: 'rhat is. not true.

Mr. MAHER: Does the '1\finist~r assert that the Prickly-pear Land Commission did the work?

The SECRETARY FOR Pvn;,rc LA);DS : The Prickly-pear Land Commission initiated eYcr:v llJOYC that waf' resllonsiblc for the eraclicat'on of prickly-pear.

::VIr. MA HER: I am not in a position to contcc.t what the i\Iinister says, but I under­stood that the r::ornmonweaclt h Council for Scientific and Industrial Rcs('arch 'Ya.s i:ho tirst bcclv to take in hand the destruction of the pear by biological agencies, and that council made available· the result of it·; findings to the Prickly-pear Land Commis­sion. I do not want to take credit awav from the board for applying- itself with v·igour to the JOb of eradicating the pear. To that extent it did excellent work. At any rate, a great work has been achieved, whoever was responsible for it. but I do not give the connnis.sion cre-dit for tho ,,·ork of thf" scientists who cliscoyered that the insect cactob1astis eactcrun1 \Vas an dicctivc .ngenry in destroying prickly-pear.

The SEORET.\RY FOR PcnLIC LAXDS · Pricklv­pear board officials toured the world until they obtained those now agencies.

Mr. M All ER: Before the Commonwealth Cruncil fc-r Scientific .and Industrial R,f--:l('arch investigated the rr1attor?

Y1r. DEACON: You know they did not.

:VIr. MA HER: There seems to be a clificrcnce on the point.. and I adhere to what is fresh in mv mind. that at that time crerlit was given to a body of scicntistc for locating an agcnr_y to d0stroy the pear. rche Pric·kl:v-pear Land Cornmis~ion proftted by the findings, and applied itself vigorously to the work of pear destruction. However, it doe-.; not matter v'l'l1o discoYcrccl tho agcrJc . The job has br>cn clone,, and all I want to a v is that in tho eradicaticn of noxiou;:; we" cl~ and anirnal pests the Iviinistcr h:-' imposf d a substantial task upon it. ToJ.:0 tht~ rabbit .as an cxarnp1e. The rabbit in Au,tralia has resist<'d the combined onslaughts of Governments, pastoralists,

[Mr. Maker,

1nuch rr1oney, and a standing arn1y of t~·appor:') ,,nd poisoners for ahnost a lifc­i 1me. In my opinion, the rabbit can only be extermiuatod at a cost that the value d our land, cannot stand. Thoro is no doubt that the rabb;t can be exterminated, hut it would be at such a cost per acre that 'cry few pastoral men in t-he country could med it. The Minister sa, s in the Bill that funds may be used for ;·abbit destruction. That work is being donu by rabbit trappers throughout the year without any cost to the Go\-ernmcnr,.

The SECRETARY FOR P'cBLIC LA);DS : Do you say that rabbit boards should be abolished?

Mr. MA HER: :'\fo, I do not. I would strongly oppose their abolition.

The SECRETARY FOR P1iBLIC LAKDS: You say that we should not spend any money.

Yir. MAHER: Tbc Minister makes pro­vision in this Bill for funds to defray the cost of rabbit destruction. He can engage an3 number of men at the expense of the landowner.

Mr. JESSOK : You said the other day there· "a; <1 shortage of rabbits.

Mr. MAHER : There is, but the number& gl'OW very rapjdly after a. good season. It is only because of th" dry times we have gone through during the past eighteen months that the numbers have been reduced. The Minister should not use public funds to destroy rabbits. Let the rabbit boards con­tinue to operate as they have done in the past, and above all maintain rabbit-proof fences to prevent an invasion of clean areas. The Minister is taking power under the Bill to put men on private property to destroy rabbits at the expense of the owner, but the provision is far too drastic. To-day rabbit skins have a value of 5s. a lb., o1· approximately ls. a skin, and to men follow­ing the rabbit industry in districts where they .are plentiful that is like picking up gold. It is a very profitable indnsbry to a big class of otherwise comparatively roar people in Southern Queensland and Northern Now South ·wales, especially in the winter months. A considerable amount of money circulates in these districts through this inclustrv, and it is one that should Lo looked at in ;, different light from that in which wo used to look at it in bygone days. To-day the rabbit is not the pest that it was hvent~·-f-ive years ago, \vhcn it was of no value. The work of their clbtruction is now being carried out without cost to the State by men who earn their livelihood in the pro­cess.

Mr. O'KEEFE: It is a great thing to be ab:e to cat a pest.

Mr, ~IAHER: It is certainly a great thing- to be able to convert a pe3t into an asset. If we could have clone that wich the prickly-pear. or if we could do it to·day with th0 dingo, fox, ga1vanjsed or N oogoora burr, we should be achjeving sornething.

Tlw Bill also prm·ides that the T\1inistet· mav from time to time direct that a fence lw ~erected frou1 point to point alm1g a specified route, but this may impo3,, a grca t hardship upon the men concerned. The type of fpncc that would be prescnbcd b.v the ~1inistPr in the Yarious cli,,tricts might cost from £40 to £120 a mile to erect, ami in some of the central-western r1nd northern parts of the Stato a great deal more, because of "the extra cost of transport. Those fences

Stock Routes Impro11ement, Etc., [30 SEP'.rEMBER.) Pests Destruction Bill. 655

that the Minister may direct the landowners to erect, on the rccomn1ondation of his s•1pcrintendent) may involve thmn in .a.. tre­nHmdous expense, and, what is n1ore irnvor­tant, the landowners may not hccvc the mon··y to carry out the work. \Yho, tiwn, is gomg to find it for them? The J\linister also takes the very unjust povver to inLpose a penalt,y amounting to one-temh of the CL•st invo:vecl upon the landowner \vlu does not pay his }Woportion of the cos1. That proYi­sion will jrnpose a very great hanl~hip indeed. M0st of these landholders, particu­lar!"· in the cattle industry, l1ave been undergoing seriou~ trials ever since the wa.r, and iu rnanv cases thev have not the: neces­sary money· to pay f01: the cost of erect-ing the fences. 1\ly partner and I have con­structed boundary fences on our property, but the adjoining landholders ha, e '"'t been able to pay their half-share of the <>ost. N'ot that they did not want to pay. 'l'hey haYc told us quite frankly that they have not the money with which to pay, but as the fence w<ts necessary we had to do it at our o\vn expense, and must now wait until our neighbours improve their positicn to enable them to pay. But the Minister does not propose to do anything like that. 'I'ho Bill coldly provides that landhold<n-s rnny be called upon to erect a fence from point to point. It may be up to a distance of 20 miles. !Iow can a landowner in a poor financial position stand up to his proportion -of the cost involved? The fence may cost anything up to £120 or £130 a mile, and -each landholder's share of the cost ma,- be very considerable. ·

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. gentle­man has exhausted the time allowed him under the Standing Orders.

Mr. 1\iOORE (.1ubigny) [11.22 a.m.]: This is a very important Bill, and it contains very drastic and extraordinary power·', It is divided into three parts, the first dealing with stock routes-with which we arc all in sympathy because it will enab'e watec facili­ties to be provided so that stock may be more convenientlv travelled to railhead and to market-the second the part dealing with the destruction of animal pests, and the third the part dealing with the de,truction of vegetable pests.

I do not know whether the Minister has been reading the life of Hitler, but apparently he has tried to outdo him in securing the powers that he deems necessary under the Bill. He is even usurping the powers of local authmitics; he is taking greater power than they possess. He is taking power to place men on the property of a landholdor to do certain things. He is taking power to declare that any noxious weed shall not be a noxious weed and that other weeds shall be noxious weeds. He mav exercise that power in all districts ove): which he is to have control. He can declare anv district at am· time to be a district m·cr \Yhich he has 'control under the Bill.

1\Ir. JEssox: The powers are necessary.

:\h. ~roorn;: I should like further c,·i­dcnce of that than what the hon. member is able io furnish. I lnvp not fouwl his advice of vcrr rnnch value. SonH~ of us ha Ye had n good deal of e-..;;:pericncP a Eel kno·w the difilculbc we have to conterHl \Yith. I n:rnenJlx•r that in 1927 tlH' thr:11 .SccJ·c•tar ~~ for PubliC' Land~. :;lr. "'fcConnack. inn·odm:cJ n Bill for the dco.tructlo;n c,f

noxious wcl•d:3, \vhich proYided for forfeiture for failure which no one thought could be put into cffccL \Ye know th::t it would bP irnpract.i{'ahlc> in rnany part:;; of the State Thi-. Hill goc- further than that ~\et. and gi,·cs the ~Iiuistcr complete control, nm oHly in gi. ing notice that such uud sueh a. \York lflU>:'f be done, bnt also in actuallv doing the work at the landholcler' s expen;c, a.nd chargl11g hirn 10 per CC'11t. penalty in case of default.

Th <)bvionslv rea lis os the difficnlty ht: nn1.:.:.t \Yhcn .deali1lg with noxiou~ weed~. for lw takes (lO" er to onl-'r the destruction of noxious'"( cds on stock routo·~ if in his opiniou it i:-: "l'C'8:-:onably and economically pos::,ilJlP," ·wh('re-::-s in the case of priYato prorwrty no ~uch qualfication ls made. and the }1inistcr can giYo 1shat ordt'l's and sot Ol}-t what terru~ and conditions h•,: likes. }-le rnay <pccify the time in which the work must he dmw. If i be work is not carried out he may· put on 1nen on such terms and con­ditions as suit him, and if the cost is not paid by the landholder he can impose a penalty of 10 per cent. as welL Those arc extraordinary powers. Anyone who n1ads this Bill must come to the conclusion that we do not need a Government in Queensland, still less a local authority or board. The Minister i,; the whole Government of Queensland so fa1· as the provisions of this Bill arc concerned.

The Bill says definitely that in any dis­trict that is proclaimed-and he can pro­claim districts from time to time-he shall have the sole control and anv power exer­cised bv a local authoritv fo~ the destruc­tion o.f noxious weeds- or a pest of any kind shall devolve on him. Any power posseBSed by a rabbit board for the extermination of rabbits can be taken a way from that board and vested in the Minister. The board is dissolved, and the Minister becomes the board. It is not reason­able that the Minister should possess such enormous powers. The people vitally interested in stock routes and the destruc­tion of dingoes, marsupials and otht>r vermin are infinitely better qualified to carry out such work than a central administration under the sole control of the MinistE'r. Under a central administration the sup,•rin­tendent in Brisbane would control and appoint superintendents in the various dis· tricts together with the employees under them, and he can make such appointrn<'nts wherever he considers it necessary.

The cost of all this work is determined in fL purely arbitrary way. The Bill says that the Minister mav sav what llnance is required in a giyen • dist;.ict, and he mav either issue a stock assessment or he m a,. ass<'ss the local authorities in that dis, trict by means of a precept to provide the amount of monmc required, and it need not be equallv apportioned among the people of the chstricL The latter ha,-e no voice in the expenditure. The Minister and the f_;Upcrint{'lH1cnt under hirn ('an delegate to the official3 under thorn the povvcrs po::;scssed by the Minister, and thus the latter will have sole control of th0 expenditure of that monPv; yet some othPt' bodv hccs the lJusi­m ss 'of 'collecting it~ Th-~t principle is cnbrcly \Yl'ong.

-~~nd tl1e powt!r~ gi,·cn for the collection of that JlH1ne'- ar(~ nw~t 0Xtrao1·dinary. \Yhy, Pn-n undm· thP Local A .. nthoriiic~ ... L\ct the p<\nalt.Y for n011-payrncnt of dues j;;: reduced

Mr. ilfoore.l

();)6 Stock Routes ImpTo;;ement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Dest!'uction Bill.

to 5 per eent.. but under thio Bill it is ,pecifically sot _out as 10 per c~n~. The terms and comhtwns that the :\lnnster can impose on individuals arc most cxtraordin­arih· wide. lie is th0 sole authonty to determine whetlwr a lessee of a cattle hold­ing- is doing what ho consider- to be sufli­ci8nt for the cxtennination of verrnin. If the Niinistor thinks he is not doing enough he lms power to put men on his property under certain tenus-not onlv to kjll dingoes, but also to search for ding-oes. Irrntgine the opportunity for political patronage, or of pntting n1cn on jobs l \Vhcn such men ent?r upon private property they must he pare! by the owner at the rates fixed by the JVlinistcr, otherwise the Minister can recover the cost from him. It is a most extra­ordinary provision. An opportunity exists und<'t' this power to put men on Jlrivatc property to exterminate or search for ntbbits, dingoes, or \vhatevcr the 2\1inistcr confiiders to be vermin, irrespective of whether the individual himself is doing- his utmost bv employing persons to carry out that wori<. That person will have no say in the matter. A permit can be given by the local superin­tendent to trap on a particular property irrespective of whether the owner himself is employing men and doing Pvcrything­possible to exterminate vermin. He cannot ,,ay, "I do not want others to come on here." A permit is giYen to tlw indiYidual who asks for it. That sepms to me verv arbitrary. After all, the object of the l\1injL~1Pr ·should bo to win the• co-operation of those people \Yho arc Yitally interested. rho peoplr> who nso the stock routes and the landholders, in g-etting rid of pests and Yerrnln as far a.s it is lnnnanly pos-,iblo to do . so. It is extraordinary to place :;.nch arbrtrary pow0rs in the hands of the J\Tinister, powers that 1nav be exercised b~ officials in the various clistr.ids-because nob~dy suppose' that the Minister can have time to go all over Q.ue2nsland to see whether tlwy arc being- exercised with care or not. The :\Iir1ister has to trust to these officials to cany out their duties fairlv and justly. These subordinates of the 'Minister aru exempted from a claim for any damage or loss that they may inflict.

Another extraordinary provision in this Bill is that exempting the Crown from all liabilitv for the loss of stock as a result of the pc;isonin~ of noxious \Veeds on a stock route, proYiclcd that notice is stuck up and 1 hat notice is given to tho adjoining ovvners. An Pffort. \vas rnade to carrv out such a provision nrcviou::ly, but it did not \vork. Wlwn an individual traYcl!ing stock lost them as· a result of their eating poisoned pear or noxious vveccls, he took a.etion against tlw shire council that controllcrl the area. and \Vas able to rocoYcr darnagcs. Precau­tions rnnst bo taken to s0o that stock are not lo,t, bnt t.hat haYing been done this Bill attempts to exonerate the Crown from all liability for damage. no matter \Yhat may happen.

ThPn• is .also a provl-"lOn that the J\linist.cr shall ha·.-o power to tell anybody to <·If'ct a fen<:l' from one point to anotlwr poiut, eithe-r on tlH). boundary or through hif: pro­p~rty. I can underotancl tho desir0 of tlw lVfini~tcr to have po\vcr rcgard1ng the f nee on the bcundary~ but to call rHl an cw1wr to Nect n fence within hi' pwpc•rlv·-ctnd it may be any !cnl!:lh-is a diil'crent rnatter altogether. According- to th~ Bill it must be of such material as the Minister prescribes,

[Mr. Moore.

and it must be kept in repair, and it is competent for the ::\1inistc•r to put men in to erect it or to keep it in repair· after· wards and recover from the owner. It must be capable of carrying wire-netting or rabbit-netting.

The Minister has also to decide the ~onefit that accrues to the drfferent people m the area from the erection of the fen~e .. I_t would be an easier matter if an mdrvr­du-al had a bank balance or; was able to g·et credit when ever ~he J\llmrstor wanted hirn to carry out certam work. but . every­bodv knows that the landholder rs not always in that happy JJosition. All_ the :VIinister needs do is to grve notice, and 1f he does not do it, the Minister can do it at hr~ expense. Surely, that is a most drashc power '' There arc large numbers of the people on the land who have not the money .available to enable them to do thrs work. I know plenty of people on the l::nd who would like to carrv out all sorts of rmprove­ments-in the erection of fences and the provision of water for ex_am~lc-but they ha,·e not the money to do rt vnth, and they cannot get it.

Tho Minister takes pmH'r to asses~ an nnstocked property on "hat he consrders its carn·ing capacity to be. I am sure that in the ~ north-westNn areas of Queenoland nurnerons properties arc nnstocked because the individuals are unable to buy stocks to put on them. Ther':l is plenty of feed and water on these holdmgs, but the owners have not the money available to buy stock to put on them. yet the _:J.Iinister can deter­n1inP the carrving capacity and asses's th~n1 on that. Pco.ple on t.he land do not hkc to have their properties unstockcd for_ ~ny period-except for the purpose of grvmg the land .a spell-and so if they have en:mgh money to stock up they do so. Th:re rs _no sense· in paying rent for land a_na leavn:g it rmstocked. I suppose ~he ]\lmrster wrll sav he is g-oing to use dJscretron, _and he will not be hard; but the powers grven all the way through t!'i.s Bill ar_e framed for extraordinary conditions. .as If t~1ey .'ver.e ordinarv conditions and when thrs Brll ~s passed ~will be law. In many cas~', rt. JS

not the Minister that would be dealmg w1th the matter. All carts of conditions mav be imposed on landholders throucrhout the State by mon who have been appointed under the Minister and to whom hrs powers .arc dele­gat0cl. I do uot think it is possible for an individual like the Minister to control the ,-ast powers giveu to him throughout tlns Bill.

I lHLYC neYer sc0n a Bill y<'t that gave snch complete control ·into the hands of the ~1inistf'r. I rcmclnbr'r the Land Act -\In~nd­nwnt Act of 1927. which g·avl' the Mn_1rster <''-~traordinarv po,v('rs. I-Ie w1..s the solo Judge as to whether a family partnnrship should be continued or not. To giYe a l\hn1ster co_mpletf~ ronirol oY_er an:vthin_g _off_ers. extr~~­ordinary opportunity for YlChtnisation If not for ·:-<ouu::-thing wOrse!

The abolition of t!'e three rabbit boards i'< sug-~e:-tcd in t]H' Bill. . These board~ are work1ng ycry satisfactonl~T. T11c bas.Is ~)n \\hi eh t ],p Mini,tor shall df'claro a c!Jstrrct is not 'et ont. That is entirl'ly at. ihP dis­rrct1on of the ~llinistcr. that is. the Governor in c·ouncil. 11e ( ~ul so dC'clarc a district or cxtcucl a di,trict. irrPspoctiYo of \\ hether th2 hoa.rtl ha~ been \YOrking sati;;Ja.ct.orily or nol·

Stock Routes Improt·emmt, Etc., [30 SEPTEl\IBEIL] Pests Dcs!,uction Bill. 657

L1 his second reading speech, the hon. gern1cinan ~uggcstcd that he did not expect to rr"ke use of this Bill to any great extent, bocacsc he pre·mncd that the local authori­tws ;>ould accept the rc>ponsibility that had been rLore or le.:s ·;iYen to the1n of under~ taking i':!is work. His supposition was that it was or,ly in case of ddault bv the local authorities· that he would haYe. to do it. Of course, it might be possibl· that the loc~l authorities ir> many districts would be pro­parcel to unc:crtake the control of 'lock routes, but the control of stock routes, the control of tabbi~ and dingo pests and the extirpation of noxious weeds ' arc all jumbled up together. In an ;rea where stock route; arc a Yital necessity the local authonty nnght undertake the duty of caring for those stock r·ou\os in the most cflicient way_. but 1 do not know th2ir powers will be m that respect oulv. The ~Minister has the power to say whether there shall be a route for travelling stock, the fees that may be charged for such stock, and \Yhat fee'l or charges for water shall be made thereon. Whether the local authorities will have that power delegated to them by the Minister or \VIwther the Minister will fix the fees and only gi;-e power to the local authorities to collec~ them is very vag-uely dealt with m the B1ll.

I do not know whether the measure with its drastic provisions, is being brought' do,vn for the purpose of frightening local aut'>ori­ties into taking the action that the Minister othnwiso would take. It seems to me that to g-<'t the hest resnlts from a Bill such as this, it is not wise to start off by giving enormons powers to the Minister and threatening- every section of the people who arc interosled with what may be done by the l\Iini,;tcr. Local control is infinitely better than control centralised in public officials. even though they are scattered at places throug-hout the State. It iR func}a­mcntally better. In this Bill everything tends towards centralisation. tov:.rards the expenditure of money by public scn·ants than by people who understand the position better than they possibly could. Why should there be any need for the employment of a large staff? Is it to enable the Government to say that it ·is their contribution towards solving- the unemployment problem; that they are employing w many in the destruc­tion of !loxious \veCds or verrnin, or fencing the Yanous stock routes? It seems to me that the Bill is brought down with a desire, not so rnurh of ~ecunng the co-operation of the people, but of giYing the Government control of every section of industry, so that ~hey may enforce their will on those people, rrrcspeetrve of the des1rcs of the latter.

The Bill contains no pro\'ision for the rigollt of appeal again~t th8 decision of the lVIini~ter by thos0 boards that are carrying on their \York efficientlv. It merely says that thev shall be abolished. that ,. hero the 'Minister: cxtenclo a district into an area the local antlwrity shall have all it~' powers and rf~«1ponsibil1tic.; nncl('l' the rc1cvant sections of this Bill taken from them. and that these shall devolve upon the Minister.

The principle adopted in the Bill as to financ0 jg one c£ jts worst features. I think that the principle that he" !wen adoptee·! hoth in bo::;l)ital finance a11d in tl1is Bill is \Vrong. In hospital fmance there is a little c·ontrol bv the local authority, but although the local authority may ·have a minority ~on the

hospital board, at any rate it has representa­tion on the board that expends the mmwy. Under this Bill it has no representation whateYer. The Minister fixes the precept, the local authority has to colleet it, and it is spent by public officials. Is there any incentive there to economy or efficiency'? The precept is the easiest possible wav of securing lYJoncv. It is only a matter o( sav­ing ho'v much is \vanted ·and the rcspon;i­bility is thrown on the local authoritv to collect the amount. Under· the Local GoYern­ment Bill it is stated that new rates can be levied on some other basis. but that other basis is not set out. There is another hasis, of course, because it can bo done bv imposing a levy on stock. The money can he obtained by imposing a levy on stock or bv precept, or by precept and lm·y on stocl~. Thoro is nothing in the new Local Goyern­ment Bill now before the House to show ;vhat basis could be used. It might, be on mcome. Apparentlv. it can be in anv way the Government like to approve. Whe;, the Minister was introducing this Bill he "aid that the basis would be widened so that local authorities who had precepts issued to them would have another means of rais­mg that money than by placing a tax on the land. 'What that basis is going to be has not been stated. and it is not set out in the other Bill to which I ha ,·o referred. with the rcs'Jlt that the position is verv Y[1.gup and unsatisfactor~~. ·

::\o limit is fixed to the amount of the JWe­cept that a local authorit,, mrrY haYo to col­lect. In the case of a precept. ih'-' money can­not be taken from a general fund. but f~·om a s]lecific fnnd collected for a specific purpose. c("\llsequently, thf're is no 1iJnit as to what the amount mav be. a.nd the basis 011 which it i~ to he rai~C'fl i~ Yerv Ya gue. The lt'VY on stof'k \Vns not alway~ falt. although ii1 ~omc districts it \Vas re'>sonablv satisfact.ol·Y. In other districts. people were benc·fitirig bv the destruction of noxious animals. but they \YO'C not contributing towards the cost. of that work. Here. we are ~r;oing to Jhe otlwr oxtremo and ncople will contribute far in exness of any valuo they n1ay receh·C'.

One thing in the Bill is that it is the Governor in Council. on the recommendation of the Minister. and not the Minister. who will decide whether a mte is to he struck for traYclling stock. but what tlifforcnce does it make" That quest.ion has been discw:,sed on n1an~~ occasions, and there ate sound arguments for and against it. It is cont.Pnded bv some that people who come to Queensland buy stock and take than to New South \Vales should contrihntc. beca11se they are able to take that stock along the stock routes and thus provide them with foocl and water until thev reach their desti­nation. It is contended that thcv should nay a stock route tax of so much a hnad. On the other hand. it i.s ar<rncd that such men comP into a, dl~tri{'t and bu~7

from people .sdtled there who hoYC slack for sale. thus providing a market for il•om thrv wnuld not othf'rvvi:::e haYP. and that thcv .s'Gonld be cncoura7cd. So objcci ions PrP ra,i~rrl f'Yrn by r)('opl0 'vl1o ]Jyr rtlong thosr:- stork ront0~. and. altogetl~rr. jt srr>m.'-' that iho prinriplc of p1af'ng- a tnx 1F1on

traYrlling- stock is not eqnitable in prqr·i ici'. It i.s b~ttN to do what. is bcin<r clone "t prr'=:.0nt. ·wherr·· a ]eYy has to bE' mad~ on .stock on holdings.

'The chid objection ihat I ha,~o lo the Bill is that local pcopl< a re going In IJo

Mr. Jlfonre.}

658 Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Dest1·uction Bill.

pushed into doing the most expensive work in order ~hat rt may be c·arried out under a centralised S/stem.

The Minister and the oflicers under him rnay prod aim a district in ono area and then one in another area. and that procesi; rnight be conti:_Hv~d unlil the ,,-holt: of QuPon:;­land was brought under the scht'mP. There is nothing in rhc Bill to sav what basis shall guide hj1n. Tho l\1inistcr · rnav consider that the local authority ill an area is 110t CU.l'l'V­

ing out the \YOrk u as well as it should, an~l: consequently. he \vill declare it a district.

There are one or two clauses in the Bill under which the individual will have the right of appeal. If the Minister orders a fense to Le erected and ho asse•"'S the bencftt of tn>:t fen~c to each jndividual. the latter has the nght of appeal to the Land Court. In most case,, ho.wever. no appeal is 11rovided for. In. fact, m three clauses of the Bill it 1s d?fimtely stated that whether a man is convrcted or not doe' not make the slightest d1fferenee: If the Minister says that he is not ?arrymg: out the work efficiently, whether he rs conviCted or not. the 1\finister has power. to employ men under such terms and condrtwr:s as he thinks fit, for as long as he hkes to ea rry. out that war k, and th". method of carr.nng out the work is del~ghtfl,1lly vague. It involves not only the extrrpatwn of pests, but also the searching for them.

Altogether, the powers in this Bill are too drastic. It would be preferable to go back tn the system . of district improvement boards. The Mmrster sard they did not work very well, bu~ .at least they provided for local cr:ntrol, grvmg the people din,ctly mterested m the care of stock routes and the extirpation of noxious weeds jurisdic­t ··cm over the expendrture of their monev. Smc e rf !he. boards may not have carried 'ut the>r duties as efficientlv as the Minister i )1cught. they sh?uld have done, but ,omc of tnmn d1d, and rt must be remembered that they w~re all the while profiting by experi­ence. rhe system was a new one, and in Yery many cast~s they were doing new work. I feel that in this Bill we arc gettmg a way from ·a system that gives the best results, and that we arc tending towards f'xtrav~g.ance 111 a~ministration by giving the T\1mrstcr and hrs officers the sole right to say what money shall be expended, althoug·h they arc not personally interested in the collectiOn of the money. It is quite easv to decrde . that these services shall be extended, JUst as .th: Premier quite easily on ~unday mght u;tunated to the listening· nulmc .over the an that the Government fonnd ! c ncccs2-ary to eontinue Govern1nent BxpLnc1tture. IIe asked his listeners-\vhen thr_:-~e \":as no cha·nco o£ gcttino· a replv­.. \\hat would you cut down"?~ The Secre­tary for Public Lands will be asking the same. queotron "bout thio Bill after he has appomtcd a number of men and the amount cd the expendrture Is mentioned. He will ask, " \Vhat ;vould you cut out? vVould

'u take o~ the men who arc cutting noxious weed~·: \'Vould you take off thP me>J who are ttr'1pint; to cxterrninJ,te the dingo, or would you take off the men who are looking 'lftcr the wmdmdls and providino· water on t~e stock routes?'' It is not a question cf

1taJ.\.n;g n1en off, it is a questjon of getting

va,ue wr the money expended. and it is nnJm3c:bJe for the ?dinistcr t .. , obtain value tor the money to be collected under the

Moore.

Bill \Yhen the control of its expenditure is to be C<mtralisecl in the hands of people 'l'ho have no personal Interest in its cfficif~nt use. \Y{' k11ow w1wt it mcanf'. Hon. rnen.bcrs o:J both s;des of the House have h,c.J ,,~pcri­C'llCe of the PxtraYaganco that creeps i11 when ~he Gl'vernnll'1;tt aru not per.::ona.lly i:r.torcsted 1n the expenditurr'. Thev are r:;o! to have e;~en th: bother of collecting the mJne~·. It is to be collcctPd either bv a levv on stock or a precPpt on the loc.al aut'horit.v. The ~\Lini .. ,t '1' i~ to decide how n:udl ~s to be con,~ 'tc.cJ n ucl how .much is t" Le expended 1;1 pal'bcul'0r d1~tn(·tsJ and thf~ supcrintcn­{\cnt, \Yho 1s to carrv out ills dutiPs under the chief superintencl(,nt. is to attend to the pending of the mane•·. vVhat clocs it

matter to him what the clOY\ is Ol' wha.t the precept on the local authority mav bo? In very ma.n:_v cases it js suggc<;:.tcd ihat when new work is being carried out bv the GoYern­ment the mPn arc new to the[r \York that they an' not thoroughly efficient, but that they will learn and will gradually improve. it sh_ould be borne in mind that they arc learmng at the expense of other people. that other people are compelled to find the money to enable them to learn. . The whole basis of my attack on the Bill " its lack of efficient control. There cannot .''' efficient control unless the people directly u,Jterested ha VC' some say in the expenditure. 1 here rs no provision for that at all. There is provision for the local authority to carry out the work, but there is nothing to say that if it is doing it satisfactorilv the Minister shall not step in and declare it t0 be another distrid. Under this Bill the Minister can do everything. and we are g-ctt1ng to a rather c'-:traordinary position when we have a Bill so full of one indivi­dual.. vVe all thoroughly approve of the prmcrple of democratic control in both pa.rli an:entary and local government. but in th1s B1l1 we have autocracv at its very worst. '\Vc have t•omplcte autocratic control '"' the Minister of the necessary fmances. He has tbe sole right to say what amount shall be collected in anv district who shall b,, employed, at \\hat r~tc of pa ~ the,- shall be employed, snd what bonus. if anyc shall be paid for certain scalps. · He h·a's sole Pontrol over the emplovment or dismi;sal of tbe employees concerned throughout the length and breadth ,,f the State. If the Mini>ter want., to trot e!Eciencv that is not the way to do it,. He must get' it on the basJs of the democratic principle that the people most interested should have the biggest voice in the expenditure of the money the" contribute, not that the money >hall be Po1lected, brought to Brisbane, an~! <hstrt buted according to the id ens of one particular man

1 which is the principle right

through thl- Brll. I know that the Minister will not say that a specific amount of money shall be expended in a given district. The supcrmt.endent of that district will sav "I wan.t f'O n1uch." or the general ~upel·intcn­dcnt will go around and say, "VYe require so much spent in that district and so much in this district. W o think ; fence should b' built from here to there, because the r<l hb1ts arn co1ni ng jn." Dors anvone think these officials will be guided by th~ principle ,shether the v;,rork is necessarv or not? They will be guided bv a desire to be t,hought zealous in the discharge of their ctubos, and to be doing· something. They \:rrll "·nnt to say that a. n1an in a district shall cm ploy a lot of men in the destruction

Stock Routes Improvenunt, Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] 650

oi noxious \Vecds aud erec:t a YC'nniu-proof ft,_,ce, for cxamp1e. The 1-Iouse needs to re1ncmbcr that the individual will bo callc·d t!po•1 to pay not only the cost of that work. but a rat<', too. lf he can satisfy the '.\finistel' that the barrier he has erected is dfectJ•·c to prcYent the influx of Yermin he can gN his rate reduced at the whim pf the :Minister b_, from 12~ to 25 per cont. The Minister i., to be the solo arbitol' as to what the reduction in the rate mav be if ownet·s ca11 satisfy him as to the 'effectiveness of the barrier. That is to ,c.ay, fil'st of all the,· erect a banier and then they are to be taxed for its maintenance. A rabbit board contri­butes to the cost of using a fence or erecting vermin-proof fencing, but this Bill compels the individu:tl. no matter what area his property may ,he in, to erect a fence, and then taxes him for it afterwards. If we arc going to orrct b:trriel's to keep out rabbits, dingc•0s) foxes, or other vern1in, for ihe bcncftt of P''ople in a certain district, then the Minister ~houlcl build such baniers out of the receipts from the taxation collec­ted, not throw the onus on an incliYiclual. and in his discretion give hin1 a reduction of from 12~ to 25 per cent. in the rate if the barrier is effective.

There arC', of course, provisions for penal­tics. R"r;cssrnents. flnes. and forfeiturcs. In fact. there are most drastic and severe penal­ties all through tho Bill. irrespective of whether the individual is doing his bcot to comply with the law or not. ~\nybod~- who l:as had local govornrnent experience knows the difficulty met with in the extirpation of noxious weeds, particularly on private hold­ings. The work is difficult cn<>ugh on ro[lds. In some cases it is almmt impeS>ibl<'. \VhPn it comes to putting n1on on privatE' holdings -Eome small areas-c-pccially when the coot of the \York i-; out of all proportion to the value the incliYidual can rcceiYe from the land, you meet tremendous difficulties. Very often. no n1att0r how much an owner may clear his land, it is re infested bv seed carried by storm waters from neighbouring hold­ings or Government reserves. The Minister brushes these ,difficulties aside and gives lanC:­ownors ton davs' notice t0 begin the eradica­tion of those 'pests or show cause why men shall not be placed on his land to extirpate them. On several occasions I haYe had expcrie·nre of putting men on privato land to clear it of noxious weeds, and have found that vou are not sure that the cost of the work ·can be reco,·ercd, and that was only in relation to small are3S. Even the penalty of forfeiture was not sufficient in the Act introduced bv i\Ir. McOormack. Mr. McOormaok p~intcd out the need for having the drastic penalty of forfeiture, but that was not suf!icicnt, became the work \Yonld not be clone if it wo•tld not return its value to the owner. This Bill does not touch the question of forfeiture, but power is e;iven to the .l\1u11ster to place n1en on privaL~ property, not only to clear noxious weeds, but also to extorn1inatc vermin,

The Minister may say he has no intention of going bevond the bounds of common sense. I do not suppose he has, but he will not be able to decide all these questions. If the Minister is going to have his officials continually writing to him for instructions as to what they must do, he will be kept busy. "The boy who had the busy day" will be nothing compared with tho hon. gentleman if he administers the Act in tile

way set out. The idea is absurd. If the Minister had limited his attenti"n to the question of stock routes and the \Yat•3ring of them (if he is not "atisfied he has the power to declare any other road a stock route. and if declared a stock route it becomes Crown land and the local authority has very little power 0\·er Crown land}, then he might have got somewhere; but when the hon. ge'ltle­man mixes that matter up with the enormous powers he has for pc ,t destruction he mak~s the position infinitely worse than it was m the past. The only effective system is the one of local control, under which the people most interested have a say in the collectwn and expenditure of money, the control of pests, and the keeping of stock rontes 111

the best possible condition. I am satisfied that with a little more experience efficient control would be obtained in that way. \Ve are not going to get efficient control under this Bill, but we are going to have extrava­gant administration, heavy rates, and r-xpen­(litnre of n1oncy by pcoplP who haye no responsibility of collecting it. These are three of the worst principles that could be embodied in a Bill of this description.

Mr. FOLEY (Norm.anby) [12.2 p.m.]: Acoordina- to the arguments put forward by members" of the Opposition, particularly the Leader and Deputy Leader of the Country Party, it would appear that the:y are endeavouring to induce the people 111 the local authority areas likely to be affected b-;;- this Bill to believe that the Government ai·e intent upon impo3ing impossible burdens upon them, burdens they would be un~ble to can":. 1 can assure the people 111 the area~ I represpnt that there is 11? such intention. As hon. n1crn bcrs opposite are aware. '"c haYc iu our Covcrnrncnt depart­ments. particularly the Department of Public Land~. a nurnbcr of practical and cxpen­enccd ofticf'l's. who will ro doubt be used lJv the · :\1inister to investigate the ~itnatio;l in the districts 'vhere nothing is being done in pest destruction and im­provement of stock routes, and report to him as to what in their opinion is desirable for the setting up of an organisation to deal with the matter. It is not likely that these practical men will Yisit an area and return to Brisbane with a ridiculous recommenda­tion which, if put into effect, would impose upon the local authorities and stockowners a burden it would be impossible for them to carry. These practical men know what can be done to deal with any pest, and just how far they can go without mal~ing ~he burden too heavy. 'l'hat system IS bemg practised in the administration of the Lands Acts. Hon. members who have occasion to consult officers in the department about requests from iheir constituents !1nd that they have a practical view of such matters and that when a settler shows it to be impossible for him to carry out certain conditions, relief i;:; ah~Y-u.j·s t;:!_.''L!1..ted.

An important point that should be kept in mind is that the Government is the tru~tec of the public lands of the State. It is the dutv of the Government to sec these lands are "not in any way depreciated as a result of being overrun with pests of any description. That has a twofold effect; for not only does it depreciate the value of the land; it also depletes the revenue.J of the State. In areas where these pests arc not being controlled it is the duty of the Govern­ment to sce that some effort is made to

111r. Foley.]

660 Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

minimise their bancful effects. In the por­tion of the Central district that I represent and in mcmy other districts there is the Noogool'a bun·. ..:\bout twelYe yt•ar~ ago a ~tockowncr nruned J os0ph 8hauahan f'trst communicated with me and drew my atten­tion to it. :\Ir. ~~hanahan had occasion to make Lt trip 1<\ith so1ne :'3tock through a certain area, and he \Vrote tc. 1ne pointing out the gro1Yih of this particular pest h:) hall IJutiC'cd, nskr•d that I bring it befon~ the then for Public Lands, ~1r. ~'IcCorlllack. l-Ie Cllll1hasi~ed the nued for action to keep it in check, otherwise it would evcntuail:· rnin th,, best paetoral la,nds of Queensland. Up to that time the· :'\oo­goora burr had not been dcc:ared n pest in Queensland under the Lands Acts. I took np the matter \\ ith Mr. JYlcCormack, and action was taken. Certain po,vers were taken under the Lands Acts to deul with it, hut very little lms been accomplished. A few loca,l authorities are endeaYouring to cope with it, but in some districts individual selectors or pastoralists are unable to ora,di­cate it ovving to the enormous accurnulation of growth, which entails a high cost in clearing. The Act that inaugurated district improvemout boards aimed at inducing local organisations embracing all of the stock­owners in the affected areas to tackle the task. As the Minister pointed out when introducing this Bill, only a compamtively few local a,uthorities in Queensland have interested themselves in carrying out any effective work under the powers that have been given to them. That being so, what is

· there left if not for the Government, the trustees of the public lands of Queensland, to take the· necessary powers? And this is what they are doing under this Bill. Those local authorities tha,t ne!:(lect their responsi­bilities must be compelled to ta,kc the action recommended by practical men. Boiled down, that is all there is to the Bill.

Naturally, certain powers-and some of them wide-are given to the Minister to enable him to administer the Bill properly. There is to be no loophole for the shirking of responsibility. ·with men of common sense in charge of the va,rious Government depa,rtments-and the Secretary for Public Lands displays common sense in the adminis­tration of his department-no undue b~rden will be imposed upon any local authonty or selector in the administration of this measure.

:VIr. Moo RE: Wha,t about the precept?

Mr. FOLEY: Precepts will be applied. The Dill provides for that course should the system of asc_,essment on stock be inequitable. Under that system people benefited from the extirpation of the pest who did not con­tribute to its destruction. However, the ]lro"ept system will only be brought into onoration v.Tht)n neeessa,ry. The stocko\vncrs of this State have sufficient eYidence that the Govcrmuent have no desire to cripple them or their industries.

\t 12.12 p.m., rrho CH.\Il:DlAX OF CO)D!ITTEER (~lr. IIanson.

Burancla) rf'1if'Ycd l\tir. Speaker in the rhair.

:\Ir. FOLEY: Alreadv £70.000 ha. Loon eontribntPd bv \\·ay of subsidY tO\Yards a fund to be aclministPred under this Bill for the

of creating· 1,Yaier and other facilitiPS. L that will benefit stock

in itself should be an stockoYdl!l' thar IYC are

anxious to help the inclustrv instead of crippling it? Praciically half the initi;d cost of tlw contemplated oian is being met hy the GovenHlH nt it~elf. That also appJies to dingo de~truction. The UoYcrnrnf'nt have already contl·ibutcd half the cost by \\ay of bonu-.p::; for c1ingo dC>str·lction. ::tnd has been doing ~o for a nuillbt~r of year.-; i11 an t-ndca-

to keep J.owu that pest. The GoYernn1ent contributed clfrectlv and indi1·ectlv an

cnorn-:.ou~ an1ount of rr1oncv to t ontroi the priekh•-pear pc.,t. That " I think. '' sufftci._nt cviclu1cc that of the Oppo~it1on durin~· this Ji:;;cussion arc uncalled for. The set tlPrs n'alio.e that the UoYernrnent are oul to clo the right thing Ly the inclu,t1-y. They ar..._~ organising certain districb \il.thcro uc<·esP.ary in a11 cndeaYour to keep do"\vn (·Prtaiu anirnal and VC'gctable pests that ·would uatnrallv Ueron1c a rncuacc to the 1nan on the land.

Mr. "MoOHE: vYho paid this money to a Coycrnmcnt that was 50 generous?

Mr. FOLEY: The mono:~; has not been found by individual selectors.

Mr. l\IoonE: Who paid it?

~Ir. FOLEY: It was paid by the general taxpayers of this State., and t~e individual selector naturally contributed Ins quota, but lre rrot much more in return towards the .dost;uction of the pests that harass him. Take the pricklY-pear areas. I know of not onlv one settle,: but thousands of settlers, in ' n1y area, ~ho received concessions­indirect concessions hon. members may term them-bv v. ay of rednctions in rent. Rcntals were reduced almost to peppercorn rentals in an endeavour to help them to carry out tlwir J"Irt in the destruction of the pear before the insect method was adopted.

The main provisions of this Bill that will apply in the ar~a I represent will be tlrose relating· to the unprm·ement of stock routes ftnd the eradication of vegetable pests, Noo­g·oora, Bathurst, and camel burr. which have become a menace to the lands in that area. I know of c ascs whore individuals are doing t hc,ir best to destroy thcsP pests, but one finds some of the wea1thier landowners virtually allowing their lands to go to wrack and ruin as the result of neglect and failure to spend a rea~onable su1n of money per annum to keep the pest in check. I could quote those cases, if I desired. On the one hand. we have small struggling settlers going ont of their way to keep the pes(, under control, and on the other the bigger and v, ealthicr pastoral ists doing Yery little. Many of them hope that if at the end of their leases their lane! i.Q oYerrun with pests, thev will get some concession from the Go-\ronnnent bv 1vav of an oxten~ion of tho leases for thP ~ \·,choie area, provided certain expenditure is promised. I ha\·e heard of such cases. I had one in my district. A 1nan, a,t the expiration of his Jease, com­]lhincd that his area was being cut up. and that before he could get his priority right he hnrl to expend 1'-f'\"c>ra.l hnncireds of pounds in thn destruction of pear. lie said that he ;vas led to believe bv others in the district that if he allowed ·the pear to grow he wonlcl get a concc"ion from the Government at the expiration of the lease.

The Prickly-pear Land Comn1ission thoroughly undortwod the position from the reports of its officer< and the ind iYiclnal concernpe} v, as not alln1ved to profit by the wactice that he had followed.

Stoclc Ro11tes Improvement, Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill. 661

That practice is adopted in many districts under the impression that if a landowner allows pests to grow and declines to epenc! even 0110 ~hill:ing on their cxtf.>rrnination he has a good chance of obtaining a con· cession. probabJ;~ an extension of the lease OY(~r the "\Vboln arctt, on his undertaking to ,pond. >.r:-, up to £1,000 on that \\~ark. ThosL' days have gone. Tho department is too well-informed on the subject now, but thoro arr; still some landholclers who will not out their duties unless they are

to do so. Gt·c rnanv di:~tricts \Yhure con­local nutllority rncn arc doing yer.r

\Yot·k at a Ycry lo\t' c )3t to tbe di:-;­tric" COllC('l'JlOd, and natura!lv thev wi[J not be inil•rfercd \Yith. In fact 'thn 'will !>rob­ably he~ assisted in th0ir ,-er~' fin~ endeavour. 1]wre are ~·Oillo areas ,\.·here tho local ant hority roprcscHtatives arc a lot of old­tirne conseryativc sqnattPrs who absolntcly rcfu"~ to do anything to impro\'8 their pro­perties, because thcv £ear that if thev do eo th_eir ascessmcnts ·will be increased ·by cc fractwn of a penny. In those cases the officers of the department will recommend that because of this wilful neglect the land· owno~ con~erned should be compelled to do ~ce.rtam thmgs, and power is taken in the B11! to cnah!o the Minister to do that. It <mahles him to set up an organisation for t~e de~truction Df pests in those <1reas where h1e officers recommend that such adion should he taken.

Mr. GODFREY MORGA"' (Dal/iy) [12.20 ]J.rn.]: I think most of us will agree that the time is overripe when some definite action should be taken to bring about the destruction of the nurncrous a.nirnal .anrl vegetable posts in this State. I think it will be admitted that there are more pests, especially of an cxotie type, in Queensland than in any other State of Australia. In fact. many people who have had experience in other States regard this State as the home of pests. because it lends itself natUY· ally to their expansion. I saw prickly-pear growinf( in Victoria before I came to Queens· land. but it did not spread there to any great extent. It had to be carefnllv culti· vated and watered by peopk who grew 1t, and who usually took a pride in the work, hut when it was introduced to Queensland it "~ent ahead by leaps and bounds just as many other pests have dono here.

The most important feature of tho Bill is the method that is proposed to control, and I hope eYentually extirpate the numerous 11e ~ts in this State, but the whole of the rr,ponsibility is to bo placed upon the stock­D\Ynors. The Government have decided to shi~·k their responsibility b:-· declining to asc'.1st m that connection. The funds for canying out the work arc to be raised bv a levy of 6s. for each thirtv hettc! of cattfo or a .. hundred sheep, and i.f that doe~ not pron:lo an adequate sum a precept for Ml addJhonal a~nount may lw levied on thn loca 1 authority concerned. There is no mention what<'Yer in the Bill of a snb,id·~ to bP· prtid by the Go·n:rnm0nt, hut I clairi1 ihr,t the clcstrnri ion of animal and vc.o:ctab!,, :1r t:; is a ll(ltional 1nattcr, f!lHl that tlu~ co~t hould net hP borne bY onn ''l'rtion of th"

It ju,t n~ irnportnnt to Bri Tco\Y00m l'a, at~

C01Jt re ponnlation. .tu~d conir5lnltC' tc,T·anl:.; thr 1 o-t of

Mr. GODFREY MORGA~: The 'tock­owncr does not gro'·' the pests. In the majority of cases they were on tbc properties when they tnok the land oYer from the UovcrnmP:nt. In nJanv CD::'('S the land \Yas ?Verrun with numPeou~ pP~ts \:vhen they took 1t up fro1n the Crovvu, and so tlH'Y wen~ not l'C'-ponsiLl(~ for thPn1: but the GovPrnrnent are going to place the rcc.pon,oibility for their dcstrurtiou on thctn a1onP. I clairn that is not right. If a plag-ue broke out Bri'3-banP, for instance, the GoYCrllD1cnt would lH: pn~pared to ~pc11d thousands and even b'ns of thon.snnds of llOUl!d:-; from coll:-::o!i-ciatC'd rcv:,nue to sh:nnn even if it did not Ctxicnd to comirv All tha 11cople \You le! be re -ponsili'" for that expendi-ture. It only right that they should, ~ccansc it the disf'-:1."C rnight spread 1nto thl' rountr.v di~b·jcts. ~-\ si1nihu prin­ciple should be ac!o1lt·1Ll for the dc,truction o.f pc•st-.; Jor vvhich _1~0 iudivid~w_l. is rePpon­Riblc .. \\ ho can clarn1 n'pon .,bJhty for the 1ncnrs1on of rtl bbit~s frorn other State.-.:,? Rabbits were unknown in Queensland when they were a pest in Xew South vVales and Victoria. Eventually they migrated north and invaded this State. No doubt tho samo applies t.o vegetable pests, many of which are earned along stock routes and roads by traYel!ing stock and eventually fmd their \Ya(' ?n to ~Plc•ctors' holding:;;. Ono of the prmc1pal faults of thi' mc':t~nro i,, thE' ah"lcnco of any provision for financial a id from consolidated r<!Yennc to eradicate pests that should be eradicated in the interests of the State.

C:lause 27 contains the extraordinary pro· vision that a superintendent Inay lay poi"on or set traps on any Cro\'\ n lands or on any holding for the destruction ~: "' bbits or •lingoe•, notwithstandi;,g that such holdin;;­is not within a proclaimed di,tricL That moans that rnonov collected in certain dis­tricts could be 'uS<'d for the cksb•uction o£ pests in the suburban arorrs of Brisbane, although the city of Brisbane is not a proclaimed district under this Bill. That money could also be nsPd for the destruction of pe~ts on reserves in the city of Too­woomba, notwithstanding the city of Too­woom?a was not included in the scope of the Blll. No ono can agree to tho principle of such a provision. If it happens that only one dingo exists in a certain portion of the State ~hell the responsibility for its destructwn should rest on the locality con· cerned. The same principle should ·apply to pests generally. Yet. here is a Bill that wJl! enable funds collected by local authorities from stockowners in a particular district to be used for the destruction of rabbits dingoes, anLl other pest., on Cro\vn and othe~ lands outside those areas. That is wrong. When the Bill reaches the Committee stage, we shall submit an amendment with the object of makil_lg each district responsible for the destructiOn of rts owll pests.

The Bill shollld make provision for the Government's contribnting one-half of tho cost of dr~troying animal pests. At the pre­S0nt tin1c the Coyernmcnt eontrjbntn 2s. 6d. of the 5s raid Ly authorities for dinr~0 S( a1ps. That can be tYithdn.t\~11 altogether bv tho Gov('rnn1cnt. \Vhv not include that' i:~ thi~ Bill" \\'In' haYe one Bill tting forth that th(• COYC'1:11mcnt shall

one-half of the the d< struc-nnd onYit nroYi~ion ·iallv to deal y ith

.l!r.

662 Stock Ro1<tes Improvnnent, Etc., [ASSE::VIBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

The State should carry a certain responsi­bility. and unlces the GoYernmE'nl are pre­pared to assun1e it, "\VC ::::ha.ll haYe 11othing· but class taxation. because one section-tlH' poorest and hardPst-working-will be called upon to provide the funds for the canying out of the Act.

Another important matter is the principle of central control adopted under the Bill. The whole State will be controlled from Brisbane, whereas previously control was in the hands of the people who lmo\\· what was happening, and what stops to take to pro­vent the spread of rwsts. Central control will not be to the benefit of the man on the land, and is not condncive to economy. It will necessitate additional expenditure, because when Governments undertake to carry out certain work, the cost is usually about 50 per cent. more than it would cost a private individual or a local authority which might be spending money of it; own. or funds to which it had contributed. ~Where a payment is specified for a certain

number of stock the people know where they stand-the Government will not be able to impos~ a greater tax than is laid clown in the Bill-but the precept on the local authority is left as wide, as the sky. There is nothi11g· to say what the an1ount may be. Surely it is onlY reasonable that it should be laid down that the Government cannot obtain a precept greater than, say, ~d. or ld. in the £1. There should be a limit. An unlirnit,ld precept might ruin many settlers. There should be a limit there, as there is a limit to the amount of the levy that ean be collected from an individual stockownc1·. The peopl" would then know where thev stood in that respect also, and the loui'l authoritv would know the amount it was necessar'v for them to collect to meet the precept.'

Another vital clause is the one that gives the Minister power to say to a group of settlers within a district, whether on a stock route or not. or adjoining a reserve or not, "You have to fence in your holdings with rabbit and dog-proof netting, and we are going to charge each of the people con­cerned a certain amount towards the cost of maintenance of the fence." A settler maY be a cattleman, who is surrounded by hold­ings occupied by sheepmcn, :vet he would be compelled to contribute to- the cost of a fence that WOLl!cl not be of any service to him. At the present time. groups of fifteen or twenty settlers fence in their holdings by voluntary agreement with a ring fence. This Bill will make such things compulsory, and power is conferred on the Minister to say whether the country i' suitable for sheep or not. The Minister will have power to say that a rabbit- or dog-proof fence must be erected round a gr_oup of holdings, and each settler mu't contnbutP to the cost. Thoro will be no help from the GoYernment. but the landowner yyj]! be compelled to undertake an expenditure that he cannot afford. and in sornc c-l~C:l rnight ruin hiut. That is one of the eau'2es that rnake <;:.hccp-grazing 111

Queensland more expensive than in some of the other States.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC L.\~DS : Thett is not true.

Mr. GODFREY MORGAX: I will giYc the hon. gentleman tho reason why. In the district from which I came in Victoria, in which tho industries \Yere sheep-raising and

[Jllr·. M.organ.

v.-hcat-gl'O\Ving, I neYer s.aw a wire-netting fence nround a sC'1ection. The only tirne I saw wirc-ncttjng was in a town or round a. bird cage. Sheep O\\'ncrs in Victoria run their sheep in paddocks surrounded by n six-wire fence, 3 feet 9 inc·hes high. The subcliYisional fences are about 3 feet 6 inches or 3 feet high, and have fiye wires. The cost of thc'o fences v·ould not be more· than from £20 to £24 a mile. In Queens­laud, in order to kPelJ out dingoesl the fences arc 6 feet high with wire-netting of ,·arious n1cshcs and costing fro1n £100 to £120 or £130 a mile. It will thus be seen that grazing lands in Queensland arc m·cr­capitaliscd. Certainly. the land itself in Queensland may be of a lessor yalue, but the trouble is the expensive improvements that have to be made on a property to keep dingoes out from the sheep. ·

The Bill contains another bad feature. The l\1injstcr can crnploy 1nen to trap or poison dingoes on a ho1din.g- on a weekly wage basis. Sralpers or trappers have always been paid by results. They preferred it that way. Their monetary return depended on the number of scalps brought in. Men should not be employed without supervision. These men to be employed b:-c· the Government could do almost what thcv liked. They could go into a paddock and sleep nnder the i roes all da.1', knowing that they need not bother to work because at the ·end of the week they could make excuses for not s\Jmv­-ing any great re~ult~. That is not right. The trappers should be paid by results. As nn~ch as £50 or £60, eYen £100, has been pa1cl to a trapper for killing a special dog that bas bc('l1 causing a grf'at deal of da1nage. The price for scal]1S should vary. according h 'vhethor dingoes arc plentiful or scarc8 in a district, tlms ensuring also that the tmpper receiYes decent remuneration for his week's work, but the payment of a weeklv '~age offE'rs no induconlPnt for him to cl~> the "·ark he is paid to do.

.\t 12.·:0 p.m .. ::O,ir. SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. GODFREY M ORGAN: From the ,-ir_ W]Joint that the Bill is an endeavour to bring about the destruction of pests and verrnin I \volcmnc it, but it contain·+ a great number of clauses that require amend­ment in the Committee stage. I hope that the Minister will recognise that the Bill affects the interests of the people in the country clistrids more than those in the cities, and that he will r0a!ise that arnend­n;ents. even though they emanate from this~ s~de of the Chamber, are worthy of considcra­tJon.

We want the Bill to be as good as it is possible to make it. \Ve want it to be one that can be worked effectively and will show results. If it shows the same results as the Prickly-pear Land Commission achieved it will bP all right. Nobody recognises the ,-aluo of the work of the Prickly-pear Land Commission more than I do. I recognise that it was responsible to a great extent for the destruction of the pear, although it did not cost Queensland a great deal of money, The money sp('nt to discover the insect to· destroy the pear was provided principally by tho Commonwealth, and partly by ::\'ew South \V ales. However, I am not con­cerned with "·ho provided the money or who should get the credit. \Ve know_ that the Prickly-pear Land Commission did exceptionally good work. Millions of acres

Stock Routes Improvement, Ew., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill. 663

of land were reclaimed. That land was worth millions of pounds to the State, and it is now producing wealth whore previously it was producing nothing of value to the State. If pests can be eradicated in the same \Vay as the prickly-pear was, an ever­lasting benefit will be conferred on all sec­tions of the community. Queensland would produce greater wealth than it is producing to-day.

Mr. BELL (Stanley) [12.45 p.m.]: I endorse what the member for Dalbv has said concerning the n1ajor portion ~f the Bill because it makes some endeavour to eradicate the posts that we haye in Queens­land. Personally, I think the Minister would hrno been better advised if he had introduced a Bill of a more democratic kind. It is all very well for the Minister to smile.

The SECRETARY }'OR PUBLIC LAXDS : If I did that, you woulcl still object.

:Mr. BELL: I do not object to anything .that is going to benefit the pastoral industry. What I object to is the :Minister introduc­ing legislation without consulting the people mostly concerned. I have always main­tained in this Chamber, a.ncl I have done so in every wa:k of life a.ncl with my employees, that it is essential to work in a co-operative £pirit. With all clue respect to whatever opinions the Minister may have, I maintain that that is the only wa.y we can ever achieve our objects.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : 'I'he United Graziers' Association was consulted.

Mr. BELL: The Minister thinks so, but 1 am going to quote a few remarks to show to what extent they approve of the Bill. I know exactly what attitude the United Graziers' Association has adopted.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That is only the Brisbane office.

Mr. BELL: It is not only the Brisbane office. I happen to be a. member of the United Graziers' Association executive in Toowoomba and a member of its cattle committee. I have been so for a number of vears and I am not ashamed of the fact. '.i'he 'association is a non-political body \YOrkino· in the interests of Queensland~ whatev~r may be said to the contrary by the Minister.

The hon. member for Normanby put for­ward a ridiculous argument in favour of the introdurtion of this Bill. If his argu­ment is correct, I have never heard of such a case. He said that big graziers were allowing their properties to go to wrack and ruin-which means that they would be reducing the value of their wool by perhaps 50 per cent. in the hope of regaining a -small concession from the Government when the rentals fell due. \Voulcl thev willinglv <lepreciate their product and interfere with their own livelihood? ThA wool would be depreciated not mer<•l;• 50 per cent., but ]Wr­haps 70 or 80 per rent.. by the pests collected in it. Would they do that in order to get some concession in their rentals? I ha•·e never heard a more absurd argument from a man who claims to represent a countrv electorate. Such statements mislead and tend to obscure the purpose for which this Bil' is introduced or should be intro­duced---the welfare of Queensland a.ncl the Jcstruction of pcfts.

J\1r. FOLEY: I think you are misrepresent­ing my remarks and what I intended to say.

J'vlr. BELL: I grasped enough of them, and I happen to be speaking on a subject I know something about. I know exactly its effects. I know the practical side of it, which per­haps the Minister does not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Do not the officers of my department understand?

Mr. SPl~AKER: Order ! Mr. BELL: I admit that there arc

::ou1e cxcPllcnt n1c11 in tlrc depariu1cnt, for instance, the chairman of the Land Adminis­tratwn Board.

The SECRETARY FOR I'<:BLTC LAXDS interject­ing.

l\'Ir. SPEAKER: Order! The Minister has the right of rcpl:v, and I suggest that lie reserve his rctnarks until then.

Mr. BELL: I understood the :\iinister to sav that he consulted the United Graziers' Association. and that he obtained the support of its members for the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : My officers.

Mr. BELL: I know what has taken place between the Minister and the United Gra­ziNs' A3sociation. They also object to the Bill. hecau c it in1poses a tax or a levy on ~tocko'.vners v\-ithout giving thmn the right of representation in the administration of the Act, thereby adopting the system of taxa­tion without representatiOn. The very men who create the wealth and provide the money arc to have no control whatever over its (•xpenditure.

Mr. FOLEY: You had that opportunity hefore tho Bill was introduced, but in some districts nothing was clone.

Mr. SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. BELL: I shall deal with that aspect

of the matter later on. I intend to set out tho objections by the graziers to the Bill very cloarly. They also object becaus~ it cstablish<es centralised governmental aclmJms­tration with locnl inspectors instead of administration by district boards composed of local practical stockowners. The Minister must seek the co-operation of the parties intimately concerned in the respective locali­ties if he is to carry out the work in an dficient mannor. Some of the officers that have been appointed to the Department of Public Lands haYc been men \Yho failed on the land themselves, but thev think that they arc competent to go out into the various country districts to dictate to practical men who have made a success of their businesses. I contend that the Minister has not gone the right way about securing the co-operation of the graziers and other people vitally con­corned. The graziers object to the Bill on another ground.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: I have a copy of that letter here.

Mr. BELL : I know that the hon. gentle­man has, but he tried to lead the House to believe that he had th:· support of the graziers.

The SECHET.\RY FOR Pc.:BLIC LA:<rDS: I never said that I had their support.

lVlr. BELL: I intend to quote the objec­tion-; by the graziers, because I 'vant the public generally to know th"t the }Iinister is not so sympatheticrdly disposed to;~·arc]s the graziers as he cndea\'Ourecl to lead us

Mr. Bell.]

664 Stock Routes Improvement, Et.c., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

to believe by way of interjection. The graziers object to the Bill, because it crefttes more Government jobs, and does not at the sanw tirne otfC'r anv inducement whatever to men to go on or remain on the land.

Mr. FoLEY: That i, a silly contention. lVIr. BELL: It is all vcrv well for the hon.

memhcr for 1\ ormanby to "say that here, but nobody knows better than you, Mr. Speaker, that many graziers in the vVest are in a bad financial position. If the Government wonld only consider this matter in a broacl ·way, and encourage financial institutions to extend financial help to graziers who are in difficultico, there is no doubt in the wide world that thcv "·ould soon recover and that their properties would once 'more become profitable concerns. But the Govern­ment will not accept that responsibility. For some unknown rea·on thev feel that bv extending h<'lp direct to indi~·icluals generally and graziers in particular they arc doing something contrary to Labour policy. A true form of democratic government is to extend help to all sections of the community, so that n1oncy 1n<ty be judiciously expended aJHl revenue obtained thereby. I appeal to the J\1mistcr and lns supporters to forget their old clacs-hatrcd doctrine or whatever thev like to term it. in conne~tion with the man on the land. vYe lwvc experienced the effccu of it, and we know its dismal failure. Let us get clown to bedrock, and face the situa­tion in a manly way.

;yrr. FoLEY: Hear, hear ! Mr. BELL: Alrcadv during this session,

additional liabilities have been imposed upon the pastoral indu.,try. The additional taxes Imposed by the Water Acts Amendment Bill and by other measures tend to make the position of the man on the land less toler­able. He cannot carry any further liabilities. Therefore, it will be admitted that the more Government jobs there arP, and the more GovernnHmt interference there is, the rrwre likely is he to be driven off the land.

\Ve know very well what happens when Government officers are sent to the countrv. I am sorr_c that the Secretary for Agricul­ture and Stock is not present at the moment. because I should like him to know that very often those men become a nuisance to prac­tical n1en who are endeavourjnrr to carry on their business successfully, a~Id observe the law as far as possible. If it is incon­ven_ient to them to go many miles out of thmr course to get at the seat of trouble they do not do so, but prefer to travel the district in a motor car or buggy. I have ~mowl_edgc of ~uch a case myself and have m mmd a dairy that existed in my own locality, which should never have been allowed to exist under the) reg-ulations vet the Coven:mcnt. official charged with' the du<; adm1mstratlon in that district of the Dauv . Produce Act .111d the regulations und<'r It allm1:cd it and the dntv of seeing that tlw proYISions of this Bill arc carried out Will he entrusted to similar persons.

The Minister has voiced his opposition to the control of pests and vermin bv boards. A board, similar to the rc<eent stock. impro\'c­mcnt boards with an indepPndent chairman would administer this Bill vcrv much bcttci: than ihc Minister can do.

The l~nitc'd Graziers' Association sav that in the interests of the State. there shoulrl be no further interference \vith the graz1ng industry. That is a legitimate objection to

[Mr. Bell.

the Bill, wl1ieh is not required and has not been asked for by the men engaged in the industry. rrhat overcomes the suggestion of the Minister that he is more or less sympa· thetic towards the grazing' industry.

This Bill may lead to the abolition of the three remaining rabbit boards. which aw doing excellent work in their respective districts, and I contend that these boards should not be interfered with in any way. I shall deal at greater length with that aspect of the Bill at a later stage of m:v speech.

The association further contends that th& law as it stands should be retained, but. amended with the improvement, including the addition of a few clauses in the Bill.

The Bill enables the Minister to become a sort of dictator to the pastoral industry. 1\o one will be able to do anyt,hing without first referring it to him. I maintain, as I said befor<', that Government interference is­the chief cause of trouble in industr.-. Our troubles arc not a·'\\-ards. high \vages. or a_nything of that sort, but the ~ontinual fric­tion and annoyance created by mspectors who come rounrl and interferE> with employers. That interference is in evidence not only in the country. but rtlso in our industrial life. Tho other day I was speaking to ono of the former chiefs in Nestles milk factory. II& told me that the difficLiltios encountered by his company in this State were not so much the result of awards as the continual inter­fel·ence b.v inspectors. I had that statcmcnt emphasised the other day in Brisbane. A hus.ine~s uutn told me that inspectors can1e jnto hjs business. sat do,i\·n, and rnade all sorts of inquiriPs, practi-eally taking pos­session of tho business while thev wen~ pre­sent. The basis of the difficulties of industrv to-clay is the pin-pricking camed by the issue· of regulations, and visits of inspectors. That makes the employPr discontented and causE> him to migrate to another State. In Vic­toria, union officials police the awards, in order to see that they are observed, but thm do not interfere ,,-ith industrv. Thcv ··ay' straight out that they expect e'·ery mai. to give a. fair clay's work for the wages paid. If we adopted that principle in Queensland. the result 'vould be to the groat advantage of the State as a whole.

The hon. member for Normanby claimecT that the Go,-ernment had done much for the settlers. Any unbiased man will admit that the "Pastoralist's Review" is one of the best issued in connection with the industrv with which it deals. It is not a Queonslan;I paper. It speaks from an unbiased view­point, and looks at the position impartial!'·. In its issne of 16th September, 1936. it sairl--

" Graziers in Queensland may well be wondering if the authorities supposed to control their destiny are over going to· take any stops to he! p them out of their difliculties. After years of consistent drought and low prices for wool and beef. the majority of them have been reduced to penury, ·with their financial rcservPs oaten Ull in a vain effort to save their stock, awl a crushing load of ch:bt on their shoulders as a result of their long­continuC'd inabilitY to make their greatly clepldcd incomes meet their only slightly depleted operating costs."

That is a reply to the hon. member for 1'\ or man by. It boars out very clearly our contention that the graziers have not received

Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill. 665

the financial help or relief from taxation to which they arc entitled.

The article goes on to •·aY--" Tin1e and again GoYernment has

been appealed to for concessions in re·.pcct of rcnials, tenurce, taxation, and frelg11ts. r_rhe cor:ccssions asked for have 111 no scn~c been unreasonable, and by no stretch of the political imarrination ea" it be said that graziers ha v~ asked for rcilef from hardens that mav be described as light. RPnb, freights,· ancl · axPs hn Ye on the \Yholc been rnaintnincd nt the lcYel to which they \YC.rc raised :in boorn t.itncs, and ci·cn t'rwn thev \'."'Cl't'

~Inwarrantably h1gh. Gcrn:-rnme1it has. 111 rc-spon-,,c to the rcquc"ts, pl·onliscd s.vmrathGti(~ c:Jllsic1crnt-ion of thcn1 and adopting tlH) u ual polltica l practieo i~ ::;uch caS<''·, it appointr-d \YPll OYer n ~'C'Al' ago a rornrni~~iDner to inqnin~ into the pcsiti_un of thn indu~tr_v-a po~itiun \vhich 1t 1?1ght \Vf'11 have br-0n t,hought 'vr __ , ?hn?us enough \Vithont a protracted mqmn. It. is undPi tood that thi~ cntnmissionC'r':;:: report has been in the­GoYernlncnt's hands f0r n1unt-h:", but 1 here is still no sign of the tangible and n1ca~urablo concessione::.''

">Jr. SPEAKER: That is hardlv rdcvant h this Bill, unlec-s the hon. niember is able to connect it up.

l\Ir. BELL: It appnlcd to me as rrppro­prlat-c. Th:~t is an unbiased opinion fron1 n !l oubic1e solll'f'O. I-I on. ll1f~mbers rontinu­allv accuse us of not upholclinv; the financial stability of the State, but Ycry often reports arc issu0 rl that do not sec the lio-ht in Parliament. I feel that eyerv hon. men~ber of th;s Ho''"' should have aii opportunitv of st-uclying th0FC reports. ·~

It is essential that no fnrther bnrckn shonlcl ho placccl on the pastoral inclu.-try. hut that 0xisting hardships shoul-d be rPnloved rrs far as po;.:siblc.

The Stcm:T,IJlY FOR PFBLIC LANDS : That i' v:hat this Bill i·- intended to do.

"\Ir. DF:LL: Fift" per cent. of Uw rcycnue \Yill be used for the destruction of noxious woods and raised from stockowners.

ThP s~~R~'I'AllY FOR PrnLTC LAKDS: rrll('l'(' is nothing in this Bill that will 11L1cn nn addition')J burden on tbP. grazier: 011 Hw contrary, it is frn.rncd to rclicYf' hin1 of a bnrrlcn.

Mr. BELL: I ca11not ouit.c follow the l'f'a~oning of the lVIinistf'r. ·

The SECRET \RY !'OR PUBLIC LANDS : The h1n. nH'-rnbcr \Vill whC'n the J3ill J-; j·n ConunittC'f'.

~' Ii ni'-tcr tc• sa-;· lS 8:1 Yf'TY \V( 1l for the

t.ho Ilill ~,ill not impose a harJo..hip oil the g~·~Jt I ern an ( Jllr20t ·dell V

mu:;t be ·

but the hon th ·~ a1nount, of bv the loeal

The RECEET\RY 1 OR P1:nuc L.IXDs : R,· tHxing Lhe p(•ople in the towns.

:\Tr. J3ELL: The :\1inishw neve1· that iho people in tho to"·n should bc t.o help the people in the country. I wish to ernpha~.iJo that it ls e~sontial that there ~hould ho 3tabilit .. · in land aJ.n1inistratlon. If additional burdens are pLlt on the land­owner the national stabilitv of thi~ great State is naturally affected.' The Minister

may have been actuated by good intentions when framing the Bill. but there are many obnoxious features in it. Ono of the most disagrenblo things is the pin-pricking by the inspectors. Clause 4 (3) of the Bill sa vs-

''Every agent,

land commissi0ner, land

:\1r. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber may deal with principles contained in the Bill, but ho is not entitled to quote a clause at this stage.

:\1r. BELL: J\Iv main point is thnt the ofl1cers to h0 appointe-d under the Bill are g-oing- to bccorne a source of annoyance. There m·e so many of these people that it v:ill be a case of "EYerybody's job is nobody's job." Tn the case of dairy and 'tock ii:sncctors tbroug-lwnt the Stato we find that in ~omc ('ilRf'S an ofll{'er is appoit:tcJ to an an'n and carries out his dutv, and because he makes a nuisanc0 of hin1Self an a~:itabon i~ -worked up against him. and he is transff'rrod and a n1an who takes a 1nore reasonable YiPw of tbe regulation.;; is nppoint<•cl in his place. After a further lapse of tiulC. this man is transferred and anoth0r n1an is put in his place who adn1.1nis­rcrs the law, and th0 r-;au1e proccs:" begins again. I particularly rcf0r to that. because of rny interc;o;t in the clrnnsing an,a..; under the tick regulations. I fear that exactly the same thino· will occur when this Bill becmnc·8 lav,-.

The portion of the Bill dealing· '' ith the dingo pest is a very important one. I do not approYo of the granting of licenses to individuals to go on to a rnan's propertv to eradicate the pest. The ambition of land and sheep owners is to get rid of it, and if the penaltv for not taking adequa.tc measures for "that purpose is not seYcrc enough it could be increased, and it would naturally follow that landowner< would adopt proper means for its eradication.

The Bill contains provision under which the landowner must do all sorts of things. but we do not find that the Government are setting out to pnt their own house in order and eradicating the dingo from its great breeding ground-the Crown resm·n's of tho State. This is Ycry important. and the atten­tion of the Minister should be called to the need for prompt and effective action. It is cs entia! thrct the Government ehould shoulcle1· tlwir share of the responsibilit··· of dealir1g ·H·ith thi::- rnrnaec to llw \vclfarc of thn State.

The -~\finish.:'r i3 taking· pov.,_'r to nbolish rabbit boarcl:-:. Tho."-n in cxistnncr- to-da.v, the l\1 m:rion, Dnrling· Down~. anrl L0ichha rclt boanl:-". hould be a1lo\', 2d to oncratc \Yith­out intcrfcl'PllCf'. Thcv are work·in.!r cconom1-cally anrl \YPil. I nm.pal·ticultu+· .. con,Nnod "·ith th 0 :!\Ioreton Rabhit Doarcl, which d~>:-:E.'l'\T~ \·cl'y gTf.'rtt credit fOl' th0- \Yrty in which ittP ra bbito l1ave been kept down in tlH' ::.Pction of QuP('lls.Iand nndcr its con­trol.

Th(' SccrPtary for Agricultnrc and Rtock recently a(h·ocatecl the flctttening of \Ye·· tern cattle in the coastal area. and int0nrls to rlemonstratc that it can be done bY having cattle brought from the \Vest and agisted at Tull:v. Xaturally we all hope that the e'tpcri. rnent will proYc a snecess. For the develop­ment of the chilled meat trade of Queensland it is necessarY that cattle shall be fattcncd on the coastal belt of the State, but if the

JJfr. Bell.]

666 Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

rabbit boards that have been functioning so efficiently in the past are interfered with it will be found eventually that the rabbit has taken possession of all or a great part of the coastal areas necessary for the fattening of cattle for this tre.de.

The last financial statement issued by the Moreton Rabbit Board reflects very 'great credit on it. The amount of rates outstand­ing was £7 7s. 6d., of which £6 14s. 7d. has since been received. leaving only a small amount of 12s. 11d. to be carried forward. The expenditure for members of the board amounted to £86 16s. 4d., and the salary of the clerk accounted for £350. The manner in which the finances of the board are set forth is .a great credit to that officer.

I have had a great deal of experience with the rabbit, and I know that it is imperative that whatever steps the Minister may take under this Bill to prevent its spread he should endeavour to keep it out of the coastal belt of the State at all costs. I feel that if there is political interference with the administration of these boards in a verv short time the rabbits will be in this are~·. The area between Moreton and New South Wales is most difficult to administer and the way in which the Moreton Rabbit Board has kept them out is to its m·edit. It should receive everv assistance from the Govern­mE!n~ in i_t<l work. I sincerely trust the Mrmster wrll not interfere in any way with these boards.

This Bill covers work of national import­ance. It is work that should be above party politics, and the Minister would be well advised to seek the co-operation of every­body concerned. The Minister interjected to me this morning that no matter what the Bill contained I should oppose it. He as much as said that.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes.

Mr. BELL: That is not so. I assure the Minister that we are here to help him to deal with this matter in the most effective way. I feel it would have been wise to bring in a Bill of a more national character and to put it before members in a less high-handed rnanner.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I have been very patient.

Mr. BELL: Yes, but that does ttot get us very far. Patience is all very well, but one needs to mix discretion with it. I feel that the Minister would have been well advised to take into his counsels the men who are most concerned in the matter. We have often heard it said that Australia is carried on the sheep's back. We know that it is true, and we should be careful. therefore, to do nothing, either by destructive criticism or in any other wa,y, 'that will injure the wool industry. If we do, we make it harder for everybody.

It is most important. when handling posts. ¥cceus, or anything of that sort, that we shall o·et to the root of the trouble. The Minister ~ay think that some men are not doing what they should on a watercourse. but very often the trouble does net lie with them, but at the head of the river or creek, so that it does not matter what expenditure one goes to on the lands lower down, you will nevN era.dicate the trouble, especially if the water­course is subject to floods. You must go right to the seat of the trouble.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : It is mostly Crown land.

[Mr. Bell.

:Mr. BELL: Yes, most of the trouble originates on Crown lands. I feel that the Minister should accept his share of the respomibility, instead of blaming the private> individual.

We welcome the Bill in one reepect, becauso it is introduced with the idea of eradicating pests. vVe clo not approve of the manner in which the Minister proposes to go about it.

Mr. JESSON (K rnnedy) [2.15 p.m.]: This Bill, I am sure, will be welcomed by every right-thinking grazier and every right· thinking loc-al authority man, particularly because it forces some people to do something thov should do in the interests of the com· munitv. During the debate, one of the Opposition members-I think it was tho ex-Leader of the Opposition-asked who was paying at present for all the improvement& that were being made on stock routes and for the de,truction of weecls. The reply was that it was being paid out of general revenue. Th'l district I represent is mostly concerned with sugar-cane growing. but there arc many grazing men in it. The whole of the northern coastal belt is helping to pay by taxation for the eradication of weeds and pests such as dingoes, although in that country there are no dingoes. The cane­growers have pest boards of their own. but they serve, of co•1rse, <mly loc"l requirements, defraying the cost, however, by a levy on c·one. I feel that the graziers themselves should have tackled the pests with which this Bill deals, without the Government's having to step in and forcino: them to do it. It is for their own good. When it is boiled down that is the substance of this Bill.

The Opposition have taken up the attitude that they always do-that they must protect the minority-the men who havl) got to be forced to do something for their own good and for the good of the country as a whole. It is onlv they-the njen who will not look after their property and do the right thing­that are being forced to do wmething. No penalty is imposed on the man who does the right thing. The Minister indicated early in, his remarks that various graziers were not handling the situation as they should. I know of cases where the graziers live in the old countrv and in Melbourne, and their managers do not worry about weeds or pests. This Bill will force such people to do the right thing by their neighbours and the State as a whole. I know of a case exactly in point. I handled the matter some months ago, on behalf of some people at Mingella.

Noogoora bnrr was growing on the W:l..ter­shed of a creek in the Dalrymplc shire. and although that council consisted mostly of graziers, the need of its eradication had been OYNlooked. That local authority would not deg_.l with the 1nenaco in its area, because it knew that when the next Bood came the seed would probably be washed down from an adjoining local authority, and that it would then have to cope with the tronblc all OYer again. The Bill is a fajr measure, because it will compel neglectful people to do the right thing by their neighbours. The Govcrnnwnt a re prepared to help local authorities. Thev haYe never been harsh with the man on the land, except in the case of the few graziers who refused to do the right thing by the people as a whole.

'Ibe Deputy Leader of the Opposition a.sked if the Minister was adopting the role of Hitler. I cannot understand how he

Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [:30 SEPTE~IBER.] Pests Destnwtion Bill. 667

gained that. irnp,rcssion, because no )finj.stcr -could bo harsh enough with the recalcitrant gntziers who rcfu:·-~d to aclmowledge their ruponsibditJes to. tne community generall:v. l han· already pomtccl out that cane farmers ha vo paid levies of so much a ton of cane to provide funds to combat pests in their ~·o · pectt vc areas, and they are doing their JOb very well. Therefore, it is only right that the graziers, too, s~ould bo compelled to carry out thorr duties to the general public. It has rightly boon contended time and a:sain tha.t wool is the mainstay of this country, but \ve should not forget that in the good old clays when wool realised bumper pl'lces squatters wasted their monev in a "·oohd manner. I know myself that' in the St. Goorgo district some graziers would ride :n on horseback, 'hoot bottles off the bar shelves wjth revolvers, and then write a 'ltequo for £50 or £60 to cover the damage. In other caoes they would ride up the middle of a cafe and pull the tablecloths e~:d dinnorware from the tab:es.

:\h. l\LUIER: You ncYer saw that at all.

. Mr. JESSO~: I have seen it, and I can g·~ye th.e name'· of the persons concerned. \\·h.:· <!I cl not the grn,ziers sn,ve a little of tho money that they wasted in such an extravagant manner so as to combat pests ou their propcrt-ic.-, jH~t .a,. i he l':lJH~ fanw.'r:' !ta,·c dotw all their lives? Now that a Bill has been introduced to compel the offenders to have wmc regard to their responsibilities m tho mterosts of the national welfare th8 Opposition take up the cudg·ch ou their bekdf and condemn the Government for doing splendid work.

. _1\lr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay) [2.21 p.m.]: "1 he· Bill Js a Ycry unportant one because it behoves us all to give serious consideration to the maintenance of stock routes iu a.n important primary-producing State like Quconsinnd, where we depend largely upon the pnccs ptud for cattle and wool for our rcYonue. It is important that the stock route' should be maint~incd in a haffickahlG condition so that the stock mav reach market as quickb7 as po;,-,ible. It is~ also necessary that stock shonlrl be able to travel to relief conntry chll'ing drought poriods. I know of inst'1nres where it y, as in1possible to savo droug·ht-~trjcken sheep becan~o thero was no v, at er or grass along the stock routes. I am Burc it is thP desire of us all to sec that v.ater provided and that the grass is not eaten on(. by ,,tock that should not be there hecame that will help matcrial!y in getting stock to 1·chef country.

\Yheu the Premier deliYerccl his last policy srwcch wo \\'Ne g1ven to understand that tlH' GoYcrnJncnt would pro,:ide a consider~ r,~J~l.' ~nn of n1onc,.-. ~er i he pnr:)oo:f'" of p;'O­,,.u:-Itng watE~l' fa.cll1hcs ulong stock routes, hut we hano been told in this debate that vcr_: little ha,-; br•c'n dono h1 this connection. It will admitted that stock routes h,ne not tbe attention thn,t thev deserved in the past, but the action of the :\Ioorc Government in prm·iding for the c· hrblish­mcnt of district imprm·ement boards wont a long way towards rectifying the trouble. These boards, which wore constituted by the appointment · of representatives from the grazing industry, did a, great deal to rm· 1JrOYo stock routes and to tninimise the rasagcs of animal and Yegetablo posts. It vms a form of decentralised control. but the Minister now seeks to gather the whole

control of stock a uthoritics are h anchise. one Minister· would power in their himself.

rou tcs in himself. As local now elected on the broad would imagine that the be satisfied to place the

hands instead of taking it

l\Ir. FoLEY: They had that power and would not exorcise it.

Mr. CLA YTOX: The Govermnont should have seen to it that they did exercise it. Stock routes are of such importanec ch~t they should lw treated like our State hi;dJ­ways. The'c high,vays arc being constr;rct,,.! for the n'Jf' of tourists and are con,,:f1 __ ,rcd to benefit the State '" a whole, nncl th.,, general taxpayPr n1ecL the cost. Tlw Minister would be well advised to deYdop stock routes on the ~an1c princitllc instead of calling UllOn ihe graziers onl~r to snpj)ly a, groat deal of the money necessary for their control. The care of stock routes is a national question.

J\Ir. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mcm· bcr is not non, di,scus",ing the 11rinci1)L'~ conhtined in the Hill, bnt ~omcthing whic1J he hclicYes it ought to coutain.

:\It. CLAYTO~\: PPrhaps shall he aL!c· to movn arnPndm~:nis on Cornm~* tr.'e stage that may appeal to the Gm·ernmont.

Tlw SeCRETARY FoR PcBLJC LAxD~: YCJu cannot alter the principl<•s of the Bill.

:\lr. C:LA YTO:\': Perhaps we cannot eo that. The 1lini-::tcr is taking upon hirnself P-.:tra,ordinflr.v pCY\Yl'l' in enacting that grazif'r:-; ::-hould he call0d upon to prevent ravngc::. of dingo{·-i and rn,bbit<.;. H0 can compel land­CY\nlers ad iac0nt to stock routes to PXl<·rn1ina.tc ·tl10c.,c• pc~ts. This is an in1portant r;u0stion, ::ts lt js likely to inYolYc trcrncndou-s r:ost. e·-pccially nndcr the n1ethod of eradica­tion proposed in the Bill. whereby th" l\Iinist<~r ha~ po\n'r to send certain rncn on to an ctrea of land to help in their destrne· j ion. That \Yi1l n1cnn hcayy cost and grPat hardship on the eelcdors.

The l\ijujster is also taking power unto himself to compel settlers to erect barriee fen: J?S. ~·-\ sup0rintf'nclcnt can cause a fence to ho cr(~rtocl vdH're he con..,idPrs it advis-

witLout aw regard to the cost to the lie is abo culpo1Ycn•d to P"\':tE'rminab• '~'e0cL on land adjacent to stork

rente,:.; and rc~C'rn=:~. ~~either i hn stock routr>s nor are fcnc ,:d. The Go\'C'rii-ment are grcatc't culprits in the pro· rngation of noxions 1\"<'cd:-:, "\vhirh arc to bo found gr~nvlng in profusion ou ."tock rontes on n1o-t of oui· "\\atPr::-1:cds a11cl forcc;;try reserV('"· I knO"\V frmn experience that heavy mirn distribute the seed on the priYatoly-ownecl land sitllated lowt•t· The Coyr.rnn1cnt ~hould put thcjr o\vn ln order 1wfore 1 dling on the ~electors te incur n ver. large 0xnc >1SC' at the dictation of tlw l\lini~.tC'r. I lla,-c ~tnc1iPd ihis qne.s­tion for Jn<-:nv vears anc1 kuow that lrrnll-0\\"Jlr>rs on thcs0 \Y<:dcrcm.n'.~C's adja.c0nt to ~tack rontf';:; R]lCncl pounch and ponnds every V('ar on the eradication of noxious "\\ eeds.. 'fhat is dun to the neglect of the Govern· rnPnt in not attending· to reserves n~·wd by travelling .c;tock.

Mr. HrLTOx: In most cases Hrn reserves tll"l' 1~ndcr the control of local anthoritles.

}\Jr. CLAYTOX: TheY \\'ill be in ju;,t tho san1c condition nnder the control. of tho GoYornmcnt. Local authorities do not clean GoYernn1ent reserves of noxious wcods.

Mr. Clayton.]

668 Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests DestJ·uction Bill.

They get no cncouragcrncnt fron1 the Con:~rn­lu,•nt to do ~o. The I\Iini:o·ter ],:; takincr uuto hinBelf power to clear privatcly-ii~fcstccl la_nd at thu oxrmnso of the' O\Yner. ~Jooro nunent W•.Jnt into t1:c: of the otl the

Tiutn3. The.. "ere dcfca tcd a ntl

}Jl'l':·Jr-nt CoYernr~H~I--:t canH~ j11to ])0\V(T --tnd thP wcrk '" lt.s done in i ime. J n 19~:3 I asked the qnr·.c::;·lon as to co:;:i of ckat·-ing that paddock.

\\:-hen the \Ye re n 'tlUH'd to

r:g tllc to £970. I

.lncc 1n :"UJ1ll()\T of rn\· be1icf that ·\':orker;:; arc 0111 plo:vcd by the

t(l clo:1 r noxious \YOods on land to dock rout<>~, the expenditure

<?ll0l'1110US.

The SECTIETXBY roR PunLIC LAKDS: In the ra~c t}lc bJn. 1ncn1lY..'l' rofr>rrcU to the work was not dmw b,· the Department of Public Lands.

:-Ir. C:LA ','TOK: 'N"o. I believe the expen­dit:n·(' \\·ould h>tve l1eeu greater if the work lu,d hPPn ( ,1rric"J out by the lJOn. gentle· 1nan 's d0partnH~nt. The work 1Ya~ done "ndeJ· th0 Department of Labour ancl Indus-1ry. and the cxpc1·ienrc In that cac;e i.e.; inr!i(·:ttive of ,_·hat will happen if tho Department of Public Lands employs relief workers tc• clnan up land adj,went to stock rout~..~~-

:\1r. HrLTOX: Tho local authoritv supcr­vi~e~ the work.

~h. CLAYTON: When the hon gentle­run n ha." had as 1nuch experience as I ha ye had in regard to local authorities ho will know that the Department of Labour and lrHlnstr~· ~lllWI'Yi~c~ the work. In tbe ca~t~ I quoted tlw work was do no in a Gon;rn­mcnt police paddock contrc,llcd b,- the Department of Health and Home Affairs. I under ,t•md a general eupcrintendcnt, superint,•ndent'. and other officiaL; uc to be ~ppointcd by th(~ ~1ini.'3tcr to inquire into ihcsc nHttt T3. <ftnd thnt alone v.·ill occusion a :1 c•r.:.orHlOUs an1unnt of expenditure.

1t ls not likcl.c to he fnund nccc;;;sarv to s~nd _n1cn int.o properties-especially in sl1ccp chc:.tnct~-to cle'ut 11p .?'~oou:r.:ora Ol' Bathur,t burr. It i~ only ll"'•Lnral tllat the 1andownpr \\ho is paying lond tax or rent. •vill sec th,Li; lns is k(•pt de-an of these noxious

the YU!I!c of his wool If, hOWC'H'r, the

on to properties for no:xiou::; \'H'c-ds. a

inlJlO.:;cd upon the

The ?\Ilni:-;tcr Yi'1ll ncPd n1ore rcYt:llUC' to carT.v out what is p!·opDsccl. T!Jo Bili atnounts io anoth0r fornl of taxation unon t.h_(~ prin1<ll'Y prr;duccr. I l1opo the ~iini.~t0r \YJll bo nrcful to that tho settler gets n fa 1r return for expenditure he has to me•:t for the work carried out.

H.L•g·Ll.1atlm~s \Yill h0 fran1e-~1 under the Bill. and I tru:-:t- that in fraJnino- tht:;o rco·u}ation~ t~~~ l\linist~r v:.ri1l Sf'C that' no great~r hard: sn1p than Js ab~olutcly noce.s~~ary is i1nrwscd upon people who are experiencing trying times.

[lli r. Clayton.

:-rr. HRA::'\D (lsis) [2.35 JJ.ln.]: Tho Bill one that \Yl11 affc(·t the pa"tOul1 industry,

V1bich j~ prob:1bly the Hl('~t. i1111101"tant of thn iHUu·t.rics in QuecnsL.nd. T-'Prhaps no other iudu,.;try coJ~tl'ibutes rnorc to consolid2tcd l'C'\.8I1U8.

I li.,t<·ncci to the ron;arL of the in 2uppol't of the and aL--.;o tltf' l;y lHHl. JlU-llllJC'l'~ [-le hind Utc 'cra-li:Pllt. Th-.. hoil. ntcndx·r for Kennedv d itnct1 thnt 1lH' Bi1l was c1t'slg'J~Pd to forc·E~ cc•rtair.. pt"C'ple on the land to do certain

That p: in('ipJc 1::1 one that tho

tf) rlo --or-H•thir:g· J:ot. pn'~~<~r~·d tn du t 1 an1 to tl:·tt

pronr to inc1ndc in ~oo1e on the lnnd G o-Y<'rnineut n re

!\a(urJll ..

;!:fi'PCt l •rinl:l1'V l1J'Oi1UC'~_'l'-l. _\ftc·t t.h0 n<'O~Jl{; \YlJo an' ( T"Lr·-t ~f'n-iCC' 'rn -Lhr> ;:·1

1

u~.:~f;~~cl in ou1· nr iEw rv paStoral industry has an annual 11roclucti;T value of £13,000,000.

Tn <1irect taxatiou on that £13.000,000, thEe Sinh' ol't ~incd a fl'YL'llUC' of fl,pproxirnately £1.500,00l I ask thr• !\fini·kr thi' after­noon: \Ylv•n i~ the GoYCl'ninr·ni of \Yhonl lw 1...: a tnctnlH'l' going- to H' 1isc> that it is their duty to do :-ornething- fnr an industry of su"h i;nl >ori >m cc to the ·state• ., This Bill 11JC'l'Q1V n1qkc:;;; pl·o,~i::;ion for th0 n1an on i-be lo nd to conH' unde-r another taxing authority~ The· GoY~'l'nJncnt apparcnt1!'· con~idc-r him a. f'1t subject for taxation to bear all costs of go\·crnnH'nt I-Iaras"'ing anrl irk~on1e taxa.­tiori is i mpo.::ed ou hin1, and that does not heln tlw nntn who i~ 0arnlng- a liY('lihood, P.ncl pmducin;r \\'Calth in the remote parts of the> Stn.tc. Under the proYisions of this tneasnr0. the l\Iini."tc-r coulrl in1po::;e an annual tnx amounting to £128.356 on the pastoral indnstr~· of Queenslnnd. and if that amount pron'lcl to be jn~ufficiPnt to improve and maintain the stork route~, provision is made for prP' ·•pt~ i-o local aul~horitie·• for the halancc. This 1~ a s,~rions as}1Cct of thi' Bill. The :MinistPr is h:tkinv unlimited nov;,rpr:;, and can force frmn these men, either bv n::;;scs;;;lnf'nt or nrecPnt. an an1ount that rr;ay g-ravely injure their industry.

l\1r. FOLEY: \Yl1at clause are yon referring to"

J',Ir. BRA"'D: Clauses 35 and 36. In Qm'enclnncl there arc approximately 22.609.000 cheep and 6.052.641 rattle. Hon. mrn1ber~ ( .1n work out for tbcn:~elYP~ the hnrf1rn that would be f'ntailec1 bv the rnforce meut of the proyisiom of thi.-. Bill through­out the State.

T recn:cni'r that it is c>s,entinl that ihe Statr of Qncen· 1nn0 '-hO\dd havp f:ond "-fock rnn!c' Knhnch on this side of the House olJjects to lhn . in Tl>e fn, rrC'P~ ~d1on1: facili.: and tlJC'l'(' 1~ i h_·Jil ::-.·t

much in flry a:-1 to haxe good :;;;tork rouff's \Ylth othcl' f-yc:-tr-nl~ of transpm·j-_ Th0 ha" undouhtr-dh· ::.-pt him~c1f the ta~k of prov1clin/I convcni0nt stork in the State. aYHl approximatelY £140.000 set a'idC' to prm-icle >Yater on the c1rv \Ye rn• ouite ~ati':ific·d -.,yith th~tt . v·c t liCYC' that it i" the dnt.:v a CoYC'fJJ:11CHt that is cxtractitlQ' so much n1one.".~ in direct tnxation as I llnYe mentioned. to do something for this great tndnstr_v.

The people most affected by tho provisions of this Bill aro those who are producing

Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [30 SEPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill. 669

the wc~lth of the State in its remoter parts. They lin' in places where verY fc>'' would c£1rc to lin:l. l\Iost of us desire to liYf' in tho ruore cmJg-cnjal :snrroundings of the city, and v,re ~hould t1'iYe rvcry f'ncoura-:>eineEt to thf•;;;c who are rrPpan d to go out into the remoter pc rts of the State, and produce our "calth. The Bill imposes on them an obliga­tion that the GoYcrnn1ent are not. prepared J o irnpo~e upon thernsch-es. Hon. members on thi~ :--idc l1aYc :.:dn•ady Yoiced their opposi­tiuu to this principle. and I snpport them in their contention. At least the obligation to lw impo· NI on the , dtlcr should also be a•smnecl b,· tire department itself. If there · drop?.l'tnwrct thnt does not measure up

stc,nrlard that the :\Iinister expects to J'C ,eh nnr'cr !his Bill. it is the

of Forcstrv, n rln1inl~tered bv hims"l f. I scriouslv

ur.~e upon ilw thc imtirc of th~ claim we hiiYA made that he should at ]caRt 01'<-'dicnLc 1lOXious \VCCd~ and rwsts frorn his O\~cn rtl'Pl-."3 before he place~ an ob]io·ation upo11 other citizens of our State to d; so.

Tt i~-; aJtno3t an ilnpoBsibilitY for •allY indiYidua] ~elector io Pradicat.o ~the din:r~ 1 'st, particularly vd1Pn ihP dingo pC'st rncan;;:. any half-brPd or >tra~· dog- that hns no (H\cllPr, yet the obligation to do so·is thrown by ll1is Bill on the settlers alon,r the ,stork ronTC.·. T mn opposed to those. conditio,-!' and p~·inciplc,; in the Dill that place an obh.rsatlon upon the settlers who are doing a grc,d .s<'n-icc to Queensland to-dav. It secrns tha.t the procedurP of issuing- p"recept;;:, to local authorit~Ps is becorn1n(r -.aln1ost a n1ania 'lvith the Labour Govern~cnt. Th0v ~diPYe that the f'asit·'3t \Vay to get revcnu;~ Js to . place a precept npon the !oc,1l anthonty often fo1· maltc·rs for which those who pav rates shonld not be hPld rc'S11DH· sib!c. The local authorities of (>ncensland arc. taxed to maintain thc•ir obligations at a h1ghor rate than those in anv olh0r State in Au~tralia. Queensland 8tancl.s by fur the highc,_t in the avcr1ge ar11ount ·of rah''-' paid by pcoplc in any State of L~ush-alia.

J\.:Ir. -JESSOX: l3c~causc Qnef'n~1rtnd has 11101: land.

}lr. RRA:\D: That clocs not lightc'>C t!J~ obligation that fall.-; upon P\.f'l'.'- individual in this Stat0. wlu~thPr ho liH'" in the city or countrY. [ say -Lo th0 lvfinistr•r and i'l thr Uo\'f'J:unv~nt ~1ctulwr" s;ttlng behind hin1 that tlJc,- should by tlwir mpath ar,d SUfJ]lOrt 0ndcavour to J1l'Ot(•ct nl"n ;vho ~ll'(· liYing- in r mmt:rv and to~clao;' El t'•'

paYing rate ~ ThrTT shou1d t~·v to rdif'YO nf tho-:.0 clifflcufti··s rnthf'l' than

c1 Hill that wiJl lend towards liJCTPa~­thcir ratc>:-.

"\ GO\'En;;:,u::u 1\h::IJREH: 'l'hat is >dw t1H'1'C arf' ::-:o JiU1llV countrT. 1nembers on thi~ sitlr~ of tlY: IIons.r.

::\Tr. BRXc\D: Tlwn the con1Jl!T mcmbrrs on~ ti:at ,id,, nf th0 Hou.sr' shonirl be loud in thr~i1· t1enw nd for grt' ,fpr fac1litic;:; for people in the countr: districts of Queens­lnnrl. I I"('Jnlnd th0n; that the 1Iinisicr lHl~~ nln'·tclY int1iuttt•r1 c1tn·ing the' of tll<' d,·,bat<, on this Bill that ro Hpon tJ1e people in those arcns at 50 P-'l' c<'nl:. of the toLd cost of d1c f.1ciliti('-: ~n·o,-idcd along stock routes. That \\·ill gi\-G hon. rrlcnlhrrs some indica­tion of the responsibility that will be placed npon the settlers in the remote areas of the State. Thr .'VIinistcr should recog-rJi .. e that the principle of taxing local authorities to

the extent to which it has been done should not be continued. It \Yas agreed long ago bv other GovPrnments than Labour Govern­nicnts that the people in the country, and men living on the land or who o'n' land. should provide the whole of the cost of upkcc~p of roads, not bccnusc the::.• are tho onl.v people >Yho H'C the roods. but been usP

arc an for fioyernnH'nt~. prjnciple extl_'lH1cd nntil \Ye

find that not only arc they going to havl~ pheed npon them the ccst of n ric'ri a! stock

Lut that tht'Y an' to be forced to thing~ for~ whi{'h the:.- aro not

'l1is clilC<'cl.

t.l1·. 11HA:\D: but i

'?

HH asnro wa.-.: doing intro-

lw thnt th,,v '"ere that i.lwv ·should that fioycrn~

the of !his the peop!P of Qm,,ns­

" ~honld pro\-jdn thrsc• facili­t1f' \Yo haYf' proYidcd facilihc~ in oth,-r part . .::. of the State•. ~fn,in road~ and State bi!{IT\ra.vs have br•pn provjdpd wii_l10ut co-;t to the people in the arc'a,; throur;h which they run, IYhiht a 1ntg(' amount of !llOncv 1Hts hePn spent in ra lh-..'a:.- C(Jtl!'ltruction fO~r the bcnef,t of ccl'!ain people. These people hav<' none of the''C facilities. \Ye should profit fronr our experien.._ e, and l'ClnprnbPr that in 111any ra~c:s the co~t to t}Jc loc-d people of the undertaking' to which I have referred !-',.~ boon rcdncPd b!· 50 per cent.. and Pvcntual!v lTillOYccl altogether. Thf'l'cfore, in dealing wiih stock routes we should com­llWnco in tho right way and not call upon tho graziers to bear the \vhole cost of theso facilitir~. I arn opposed to those principles in the Rill.

:VIr. ED\V,\RDS (J'annngo) [2.49 p.m.]: The Rill furnishes us with another reason why the Go\'ornmont should endeavour to work in close co-operation with the people ,·itally conceonNl, but unfortunately they <'f'm to lJo ~·etting further and further away

from that ick,d in deoding with the primary produeer... That is not in tltc best interests nf tl!f' grnzing indush·y or tlw fanning con1-tnuinty.

Thr local authorities nrc to be connJdled 1~:.- 1his Bill 10 JT1c0t certain precxpt,", but it i~ onb~ rea"or!a1J1e tbat in such a case they -J:onlcl h'' ni1oi\'C'c1 to f'X('rcise ~OJJW control ov0r the 'Jlen..Jing of the money. In almost f'\"t'rv in-;tnnc>c the men vitaJlv affected know t hl' ioc 1 conditions a great deal better than the offtcers of i.hc department or the Minis~ IN. Therrfor0 the)' should hrne some say

out u~e DilL ']'hev 'vill be COlTI­a."ll!ll'.' <ontain obligations under

from rlcpnrtmcntal officers or a rlcpa.rtmenta l board, but I warn tho ]1-finister i het the Bill will not be a success unless he i:::. pr- llnrecl to Pncouragc and fcstce a spirit nf co-opPration b<•hN{1 C11 the graziers and his rlopartmnll:. It is unfortunate that the :\f'1,i,tcr is 110t prepared to do that.

T'b0 13ill proYidcs that the ~1inister may in ('a.ch year nwkc a lf-.vy not excPeding- 6s. on cn,-v thirtv head of cattle or 100 sheep within tiro district. It then goes on to say that he mav levy a second assessDlent within the year. 'From my reading of the Bill there is no end to the taxation that may be imposed on the man on the land, which is f[uitc unfair because neither the Minister nor the Treasurer will deny that the present

1Ji1·. Edu'a.rds.]

670 Stock Routes Improt·c•nent, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destmction Bill.

burden of taxation and other obligations on the man on the land prevent his developing his property so as to provide work. The UoYerurnent profess to be anxious that every person shoulrl be placed in permanent en1ployrnent. but they are not prepared to encourage the ruan on the land to develop hi, propertv and thus provide it. That is the reason why this State is not developing n> it should. ancl \Yhy capital is not coming here for that purpose. It would come if 1 hat enconrage1nent was given.

Tho SECRETIRY FOR l'GBLTC LIKDS: \Ye can o:d 100 rrpplicants for eYery block of pastoral lancl offered for settlement.

-:\Ir. EDIYARDS: Xo wonrlcr. Th•• -::'.I1ni· t 'l' ~-dH•U 1 d und\'r~ta nd the r<'acon front ! !;" drcadfnl condition of tl1e npp1v fnr i ·ntl b, c~11·:w' JlO

n':ailablP . > iJH'm. The S[Cl1ETA:RY FOR rt-BI ... f(' L\:~n'; Bct•;lUS('

it i~ ~ '5·nlchn]n\'.

~[r. J~D'·,\T~\RJ)S 'l_'hc:·0 ]::; llo \\"'Fk for tllt'm. Tbnrc h·.;:; n gradual <'Urtrril-tnP!lt of intrrnn'ttrut relief \York. anrl utany of these jlt'opk an' c:ctua,llv on the dole. Tlw only outl0t for fnrn1C.rs' !';Ons i::; to tlH' 1arfiPr cPntxP~ of population. ·which <:lf'COUDt" for tlJC· jncrenscd population i11

t.ho~c c.'JJtrr- A Go\~crnnl~._•nt n10rnbl'l' intcr-cl·pd a lit+]e 'vhilc agn tbat. thi~ dcnwncl

1\Tini·,h•r ~pcak3 Of H thH' to g'OOd p:OYC'rlll11!:llf-.

:\'lr. FoLEY: Hc'r. lwar!

:\1r. 1'~DIYARD~: Look at the JlO,iti,,n nf our sehlcrs find thf•msf'h·c~ in : c~ nnot n1c0t tl1elr taxation conn11it­

and the Cmnn1i'- --inrH'r for Ta.x1 , i~ taxn+i(}~l ,_<ilh the aid of the

·toric ~- l-Ion. n1c:·nb0r::;; oppo..;itc that n flf'ch pro~pc'rity.

:::.Ir. SPEAKEH: On1er! I think tJw lJC•lL 1112~nb: r ] \Y8..nder:Eg a little fron1 the qtH'-.tion l)r·fo, ,' the Ffou"'-c.

:\fr. ED\Yc'IRDS: I ern pronJ that ihc 1\finistcr. t1nn-c tn impc ·" furt1J(r trrxab( 11

~<~tt lcr-<, i"' rrtnrd-ing d.e\"Clnprn"'l1f IW')})k on~ of C'I1Ip1o:nnt u-1-. :-tnc1 dri\·ill'.t Jl ·pp]:• h;::-: ih(' country dl trict" 1ntq t}l(' larg,cr of !lOpulation. \Yhil;t ihrct po1ic~· t1 it y;il1 lw 1nlpo:--~ible to dcYl'lup Stah~ n 1~d it the \\'('.1 lth-lH'CHlucing f'ounh"· 'Y0 it to l--L·.

::\lr. FOLEY You a.c a Jcrl'lninL.

-:\Lr. ED\Y.\ RDS: rrhat 'int-r·rjcctiou rdlPct~ ill 2tt!tude i_hr: hou. lHPmbPr tnkf':-.

I-Ic' i-; l.'f ntvnt tu .-<it ·down fllJCl ;1~\c•\'·: i ({fr_•c·t of to con ti 1 illf'.

If 11(' ~a.:v h:t him sc,.~-t l0r.s

c·tnnot :\Ir. Fou:v: ald

:\Ir. SPEAKEH : Ord0r! Th0 hen. """'"­bt'r will hP a~kf'fl to resunlC hi~ ~eat. if he clo0s not coun0ct hi.s l'f'"'1!ai'k~ up ~,y!t.h thi, Bill.

:'l!r. EDWARDS: Clrr ,-.c 35 sets out that thl ::\11nistcr 111 ,-· lnakc a 1cvv or a~sc«"i­rnern not r•:.::ccedinn 6~ on CYerv thirtv h,acl of ' lttlc or" 100 sheep. ·Th<1t ;s ckfinih11y uew taxation. I an1 arguing that t h(~ pr'op]c a re at. prc~cnt too hC'l vi1y tax.,d_, and cannot. n1cct thPir present corn­rninnent~. Th1s is an in1portant point, nnd one we should take into consideration before

[lVh. Edwards.

throwing further burdens on the sett lt:r. AJl thc.-;c additional burdPns ,,·ill prcYl'llt our '-cttlcrs frnrn operating succp-or:fu1ly and do,·cloping Olll' lands Hnd pro·clucing that \YPalt.h thB GPYPrruncnt so arJer1th~ desire. The GoYcrnrncnt realise a'". ,..,.c1l as ·r do the serionsllC3S of the drift from the countr, to the larger centres of population, r:ucl it. is nnfor-Lunat-.c that thl; Go\·erntnC'nt rcfn;:;;c• t()

look at jt in the :::an1c way as I do. Although it is rathl'l' htc in the day, the timo h<ts ;Jrri-.-cd when we shonlc1 alter the ·whole of cmr policy and legislation. \V c 5hould lllscourugc the n1igration of country people to the citiL·~, hy c;bing 1nstcacl of increasing­! be taxation burden. on the people on the land. \Ye should cncourag·0 pr0ph~ in the citiP" to go io tlw f'OUlltf~T and rcrnain on lhc land. You, 1\Ir. S]lcakcr. haYc hac! a lot of C''{periPnce jn h1nd Ul?.ttt'l'f', and arc~ a'\Ynre of th0 diHh u]tie."' of tnanv sdrctors in our iYc't' rn rli,trict'.· Yot! b;ow that tlw.- need to c01J:7 erYc 0Ytr pcJ~n~.- to r0stork. their beep rnn~. The :-;<~tt1Pr.· 1n the nc_trc•t· an~as

nre 110w jn the• ihnws of a scyerp droug-ht. ··ucl t'YL'l'Y e:onr( -si on po::..~ib1e --:hould be lLat1e tn i hcn1, un1t'Ss the Con~nl-

·onw to rescue 1nuch of our <l"~et·· l\ ;11 b0 lo~t. This lcgi:c.lation

01-:1 v a:..:,·f!Tnvatc~~ l he pn--itio11 of the h<-1.llh'·.;; "'tiler.c,

The Government propose to despatch offi­cers into the countr,· io see whether the g·ra.ziers and settlers arc ki:ling the dingoes rmd dealing with other pests. I am at a loss to know how thnc officials are going to ascertain whether the people are attempt­ing to clin1inatc dingoes and even whether dingocc; exist in the particular areas. One hon. member said thev would have to stav on a property oYcrnight and listen for the howl of the dinp;o. I do not think even then th0v woulcl know that whnt thev heard were the howls of dingoes. Tho ~finister should instruct the officers of his depart­ment to 0ncourage the people to do this work instc'\d of endeavouring to force them to do it by the irritating clause in the Bill. The settlers ~re confronted with enough dif!icnltics as it is, without b0ing told by an oflicer of the department that they have to do more. There arc thousands of farmers and grazir•rs in the drought-stricken al'eas \'·ho arc busi~~,- engaged in endeavouring to S::l\~c their Jtock. a,nd it \Vould be n1ost n11just tu ask thcrn to do a11:,7 a.ddjtio:nal work.

1 cmphaeise tbo need for altering the \Ttcn1 of adn1inistration and rcmoYing the burdens from the shoulders of the people in th0 countrv, and J,aving the cities and larger C"lltrcs of po)lulr.tion to l<;ok after them·

for the iinw being. You know, :\Ir. rr,; \Yell as I do that for manv

th0 ronntry is stricken by drough~t wit-hin the bonnclaries of

affected. JYiy belief is that when portions of iho State in the throes of a clrought. m1d landho~dcr:; othc•r area,.:; arc cxp0ricucing diff-iculty in restocking, it is the dutv of tho Government to concentrate ';n ihc, alf~'viatic n of their difficulties ancl to refrain from in1posing any fre· h burden on them. I hope the Minister will give careful con ·.idcration to n1y suggestions. I venture to say that if the hon. gentleman adopts them he will be remembered in years to come as a J\1inister who did something big in the intcro"ts of the State.

Another matter I desire to refer to was mentioned by the hon. member for 'Wide

Stock Routes Improvement, Etc., [30 S:ElPTEMBER.] Pests Destruction Bill, 671

Bay, that is, the impost upon local authori­ties a.nd shire councils in regard to the eradication of noxious weeds.

Mr. \YALSH: 'I'hoy put it on themselves.

Mr. EDW ARDS: They do nothing of the sort. I desire to impress upon the Minister that pests such as N oogoora burr-and oven dingoes-are largely distributed from State forest•.

J\lr. W ALSII: That is not right.

Mr. ED\YARDS: The hon. member does not know the first thing about it. State forests arc situ.ated in various areas along the Dividing R:>nge. There is· a watershed on both sides of the range, and when the seed has ripened it is carried down by the flood "·atere and distributed for hundreds of milco over the low lying land; yet the Minis­tor says he is going to force the settlers and councils to eliminate these pests, and if they do not do so he will engage men to carry out the \York, irrespective of the cost. Yet the Government are themselves guilty in connection with the distribution of the seed of obnoxious weeds. Coming now to the dingo pest--

J\Ir. \YAL~Il: 'rhere arc plenty of dingoes nYPr there.

J\Ir. EDIYARDS: There is no bigger dingo OYer hen~ tlwn you are. 'That is all'- about it.

Mr. SPEAKEH: Order! \\'ill the hon. nH~mber for Nanango resume his seat? I "'lnst. ask the hon. member for i\'Iirani to withdraw his remark.

:\Jr. IYM.SII: I withdraw it.

:\1r. SPEAKEH: I now ask the hon. mem­ber for J\"anango to withdraw his remark.

Mr. EDW ARDS: Yes. The area that have mentioned does not contain any clear or open country. Tho State forests provide a harbour for dingoes and pests of all descrip­tiom. How can the Government enforce the killing of dingoes on the areas of the settlers when they have the pest in areas they ('Ontrol? Th2 ~iinistC'l' ;;;hould give sorne definite a>eurancc that the Government will de ·tray both noxious "Needs and anirnal posts on Crosvn re:cryp,;; before co1upcl1ing private owners to clo likewise. That 1\'Cmld be onlv a fair thill'-. The GoYertunent shoul-d pu.t their O\Yll hou~o in ordo1· before impo;;:ing dra~i ic conditions upon the peopl('. I kno\1~ that it is a difficult problem, evem for a Gn\"Pl'lll1l('nt. Tn tlw State foro,:.:t.-i can be ... l'C'n l::ll',Q'"C bu:-:ohc.; of :\cog'OOl'a burr casting ~e0cl. llo T on ( tn h c1n the~ :i\ilni::;ter expect tlJe people on the lo·v -]-.-ln·~ arenc; \Yat~red by <'rPck~ coming from St'"'tJ.'c fo1·c~t~ to d< ~tro\r those noxions weed~ vd1cn th"' GoYcrn·:nf'n't take 110 step,_, for their dc-.-trucl ion on tl10 ltighr I' ground undl•r their control?" lion. nl('rrtber~ oppn~it" dlotlld 1nakc thenhidYcs ac::qunintnd v-.-ith the difficulties to be conl­bated by tlw owner' of farms adjacent to f;t:1tC' for0:;:t~. 'They recc'iYc no h.('lp frorn ihl' Go,·rnJrncn1 in or forrn in PJJdC''l \·otJriug to pc'-t.:.:. Thc~se fon·.,t~ n 1'{' a a:"sPt- to t-he Stat0 oncl I tl''' oninion that the GoYcrn-n~l'n1 ('reef. nlar~nplal-11roof and ~hngo_-proof fencP::; behn~en the fore ·t ~ and tl1• a(1joilling farn1~. Thi" ·v,·onlcl hC'lp Lll'HH'l'~' \Yho b 1 YC' tg,li:cn up thi.s land and it i::; onlY a rca:-onabJc thing for t h(~ 'coYentnlC>nt t~ cln. . TiH· ( ~OYl'l'llllH'llt should ~Pck 1-lH· co-op0ra­

bon of th0 p0oplP. vvhleh is ps;;;C>ntial to the c" rrying out of the work of this description.

There is no doubt that the first stop of the lVIJmstor should be to get the local interests concerrwcl to administer this measure. The> Government \vould be doing a groat stroke in the interests of Australia if they spent money m the country districts, and thereby helped the settlers to develop the country and at the same time give permanent ~work to the 11!lomployecl-the ruo,t desirable of all things at the present time. n: doing these ~-lnng-~. !hey wonld bring about a confidence '" Queensland that would attract capital to the' State.

:\Ir. PLU'\KETT (A.lb(J·t) [3.11 p.rn.]: There ar0 ono or t\vo poinL that -.:hould be clarified. On the initiation of this Bill, I a"kocl the :\Iini't<'r if it \Ya, his intention to g·iyc to lor~d authorities an opportuniiv to ~nnv· ont the "ork cOl· creel by it. The ·hon. gentleman emphasised that one of the reasons for this Bill was that manv of the local amhoritics throughout the Sta to had not carried out their obligations in regard to stock routes, the c ,·tirpation of pests and so on. 'The cont!ition;.; confrouting local authorities in different parts of the State ~re ~o di5,..,i111ilar that it i~ only those residing 111 each area who kno' · the conditions exist­ing therein. Tho Secretary for Health and Home AfYairs ycstorda v introduced a Bill tlcal1ng 'Yith lo(·al auth~ritiPs, and in 0ffect said that the whole purport. of it was to giyc local anthor1tic"' greater povvers. Amongst other things it gaYc them powers to make by-laws that would suit their own areas. I followed the :Vlinister closely and I think that is quite justified. I agreed 'when be said that from time to time local authori­ties haYe approached the GoYcrnment to have certain by-laws made and certain things done. On no occasion have the Govern1nent oYer had to go back on what thev have done in that n>.spect. because a boclv of men like the members "of a local authoritv mo,-ing about as they do, would not mak~ an unrc~sonable request. It appears to me that there is onlv one way in which the proYisions of this· Bill could be carried out with cfliciemy, and that is by setting up a l1oard to do aJl the things the Bill gives ~hpm pOIYCr to do, hut to do it through tho ,or -1 anthont1cs. I fear tlHtt the powers conferred by this Bill and the ordinary powers of the local .authorities would conflict tn Jnany Ca"(~s, and the possibilities are that We should not get the work done as cfficient]v a.:.; if it were undPr the control of mlG authority.

1 think the "'-Linistcr said that he would ::;:iYC' thos(' local authoritJ'es -..Yho were not prepared 1-o carry ont this work an oppor­tunih' to do so. H he does that he ohould go rt. step fnr1hcr. and Sl'C' t1Htt tlle obliga­tions '"t out in this Aci arc carried out bv the local flnthmitic'·. All those things shoul~l he> rlon<> bv the local authorit0·, bncanse in that wav they woulrl be done more cfiiciently. If a board is set up for the purpose of P:dcrrniuatillg' and eradicating -..vecd~, a num­ber of people will have to be cngagc·cl 1-0

Uo tlle nrk. when~:-\'' tht' local authorit-y is on the :-:pot, knO'/, s the condition~, and cOuld c-arr;v tho \York out io better effect perhaps thon auv such board could. It is essential in the iJ;tPrests of the Stare that stock routu should bo free of prsh, but I think that the wm-k can best be clone through the councils. I hope tbe Minister will exhaust eYcry avenue in an endeavour to get the local authorities to carry out this w01·k before

Mr. Plunkett.]

ui2 Stock Routes Imprm·em;nt, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Pests Destruction Bill.

l1c scb up a board to do it. That would ,a,·c a conflict between the two, and a lot of good conld be clone in that wav. The idea ehoalc! not bP that a lJOarcl ehoulcl do the work . a!l(l tlwn fmward a precept to the coUJl('JI for the cost. The c·otmcil would do 1r. and one precppt would suffice. That "rmid be all to the good, because \YO know ~he Irntating effect of haYing first ono tax: nnpmcd and then another tax.

I am i;npelied to prc''" for the retention of tho rabbit board2. I only know of one rabbit lnarcl--which I think has shown tllllt It Io not only efficient, hut alw that it is doing what it '"a:3 ~0t up to do lt i."> keeping the rabbits ont of the soutii·cast.'rn portion. of Quoen:-::lnnd~ and it is doiug it I'Conomic;-tl]y and \'i"f-'11. The rncn on that honrcl do uot tnind giYing their tiu1e to the \·vork. The:: are not then' for anv ll1C1W"tary bcnclitJ but bec.:\.t:~e tl1cy are in.tcrc~tod ii1 ~ht' land aud tlH~ V\'\•lfarC of QucC'!FlaiJd. It 1s a pleasure to read the report and balance. sh•,•t of lhc :\lorcton Habbit Doan1. I hope that bt•fore tla' :Hini:-t-Pr ·wip:':-: out v;irlt Oil"

s.trokn of the p('n n board tbat has dono such good \York, llf' will trv to dovetail that payt of. the _work Jw contc'nq;late;;; doing by 1lu:; Hill \rtth ihe "" ork :-uvh bc,ard.- an' cdre<t-cb nccon1pli~hing.

::'.!r. :\IM'.IO (O:c/,yi [3.15 p.ru.j · I think 1110·-t of u~ rrcognise th.ai the fltock routes of Qucen.3lantl have bpea negle·. red fo1· veal'~. 'Ilw Labour Party, 1..V]Jen in pOWCl' previOusly, took as nluch a~ possible fro1n the selectors. but rJCYcr ~ ~~Yt~ any cf tllat n1oneY back bY keepin_g thP stock ronios dt~un or doYeloping· thc1n 111 un:v re:~pecL ..:\nyone who goe'-' on the stoc·k routes in tl•e far \Vest to-day, par­ticulad.v thcJ-'e along the \Yarrcgo, 1nust be struck by the h rrifi~ gl'Owth that has taken placto in gah-,tniscd burr. It c>oulJ easily ha YC boon eradicated had the GoYernmm1t takt>n th0 nwtter ln band carliur.

Party politics looms very largely in this picture. The stock routes were controlled by the Department of Public Lands for manv years, but when the Moorc GoYernment were returned to power they recognised that they had been sa.dly neglected, and in an endeavour to put the matter right a royal commiSsiOn was appointed. "·hich after going thoroughly into the· matter ' recom­mended that district improvement boards should be set up. This recomendation was gl\-ell legislatiYe sanction, but hardlv had the hoards got into their :otride when the present J'vlini stcr ·decided to abolish them. l'\o one c11,n gainsay the fad that local men ha >;o the best knowledge of loca I conditions, ann, as ~·ou know yourself, Mr. Speaker, these problems va.ry in different districts. Hu,rn-cr-, the GoYernmcnt decided to abolish the cli"trict improvement boards and to trans­fer their duties to local authorities. This 1orork did not con1e within their Drovince at a.ll, bc•·au c they arc dectod 01; the adult fmllcb_i,c, and the majority of the voters, even m the \Vr,t, are peop1e who live in tho towns. They have no great interest in stock route's, and are not. Yery much con~ corned whether they are maintained in an efficient condition or not, whereas it was to tho mtorcsts of the representatives on the d1stnct Inlpro\Tetncnt boards to see that this 1vork wa~ clone. I think the l\linistcr will ag-ree that they carried out their work very well.

The SECllETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : I do not agree.

fMr. Plunkett.

Mr. NIMMO : They were in office for only a very short period when they were abolished, but during my tour of the West I was able to form some opinion of the work that they had clone, and I consider that they were doing very well, especially as they had been in office for only a very short period. However, the Government abolished these boards and handed the work over to local authorities. The Bill now proposes that the control of stock routes should revert once more to the Department of Public Lands. A new department may be created, because the Minister is em­powered to appoint a general superinten­dent, superintendents, inspectors, overseers, r1!ld other of!\cers to carry out the duties that arc involved. This will be a costly matt~r, and it will constitute a further bur­den on the man on the land. \Vhen I read the Bill I >Yas satisfied that I had gone into the industry at the wrong time, because I COLIId sec that tho Government proposed to pile further burdens of taxation on the primary producer. Labour Governments are aiways in the habit of looking round for adclifional sources of taxation, and the Sec­rdan for Public L.mds has been a champion in t h;,t respect.

Th, i'FCRET.\HY FOR 1'CBLTC LAC:llS · It is lWL

true.

:Yir. 2\rL\I:VIO : It is true. Ma.ny Bills haYe i :11posed increased direct and indirect taxa­tion on the man on the land, until now he hardlv knows where it will all end. Not only (loos tho Bill provide that the Govcrn­nwnt may impose a. levy of 6s. for every thirtY head· of cattle or 100 sheep, but a precept may al-o be levied on the local authoritv, nnd in that case no limit has been fixc·t1. I also notice that the Minister is empowered to apportion the amount amongst the several local authorities whose areas or parts of whose areas are in a district. The remarkable thing is that the Minister is to be given power to levy as much money as he considers to be necessary, and his decision as to the amount required ana its apportion­ment amongst the local authorities con­cerned is to be final and conclusive.

\V c can sec there a loophole for a sub­stantial increase in taxa.tion. As I have already sai cl, the Bill provides for the appointment of one or more general super· intendonts and other members of the staff. T'he Government haYe a happy knack of appointing a number of inspector~ to go into the country to act more or less as political organisers. The Bill gives the J\Iiniott'l' an opportunitY to absorb political hacks into his department to be sent round the country to organise the various elf'c­toratcs under the pretence of administering the law. That mca.ns that the peopce on ihe land arc actually paying their salaries. There is 110 doubt that the Bill can be used for tha.t purpose, and I feel sure that tl;e l\1inister \v111 i a,ko every adva.nta.gc of It In that direction.

Tllf' Lon. rncmbcr for :\;Jnango raisccl th·-· of Stntc Tlwr0 ~ ''Ycnd

fo1·e-.::t.~ an aL'(_'a Ill I arn Dingo chi·. e.-; arc continually

1 he ,c;cttler;-; to 1T-dncc tlto flf thc~e anirna}~, -,ddch L1akc

from the StaL' for<'sts on their clock. This is the 0:1l ,. c!IcctiYc methorl of clcstrov· ing- the dingo, in such cases. Tho.'o large at·cas controlled Ly the State a re utterlv ncglcdod in this respect. I agree with th~

Water Acts [30 SEPTEMBER,) A11Wnd'!1Wnt Bill. 673

excellent suggestion of the hon. memb<'r for Nanango that the Government should orect a first-class do'l"-nctting fence round all State forests. This would minimise this evil, which is very prevalent in certain districts.

From my own experience I know that if the Government, through their departments, send men out to trap and poison dingoes in the sheep areas almost the whole of the State revenue will be absorbed in effec­tively coping with the evil. This pest is now controlled by stockowners in many dis­tricts by organised drives and poisoning. I desire to make a strong protest against the action of the Minister in again endeavourin~ by the imposition of further taxation to penalise people who are trying to make it living out of our pastoral land.

Question-" That the Bill be now read a second time" (M1·. Pease's nwtion)-put; and the House divided:-

AYES, 35.

Mr. Bruee Bulcock

Mr. Jesson

Mr.

Mr.

Cl ark Collins Conroy Cooper Copley, P. K. Donnelly Duggan Dunstan Foley Gair Gledson Hanlon Hanson Haye& Healy Hisloj: Hynes

NOES) 12. Bell Mr. Brand Clayton Daniel Deacon Edwards Maher

PAIR. AYE.

Stop ford Mr.

Keogh Larcombe M cLean Mullan O'Keefe Pease Power Riordan Smith Walsh ·wellington Williams, H. Williams, T. L.

Teller.•: Brasslngton King

Moo re Nicl<lln Plunkett

Tellers: Maxwel! Ntmmo

No. Russell

Resolved in the affirmative. Consideration of the Bill in Committee

made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

WATER ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

COMMITTEE. (il'lr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, agreed to. Clause 5-" Amendment of section 17-

Administration generally"-

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) f3.33 p.m.]: This clause again applies the Irrigation Act to sub-artesian wells. A sub-artesian well is defined in the principal Act as a well from which water does not flow over the top, where mechanical means have to be utilised to bri11!l' the water to the surface. The clause, therefore, means that any well not used for domestic purposes, but used for watering stock or for irrigation purposes, although it is quite outside the sub-artesian basin, is a sub-artesian well for the purpose of the Act and therefore brings it. within the scope of the Bill. It means that those in the irriga­tion area, who have ordinary wells from

1936-Y

which water is raised by mechanical means, will be subject to the drastic provisions con­tained in it concerning sub-artesian wells and make them subject to such license fees as may be payable eventually.

Mr. RIORDAN: Does that apply in sub­artesian areas?

Mr. MAHER: What I wish to make clear to the hon. member for Bowen is that it does not define a sub-artesian well as a well within the sub-artesian area. It means that, if there is a farmer in the electorate repre­sented by the hon. member who has a well 50 feet deep-and not situated in a sub­artesian basin-from which water has to be lifted by an engine or windmill. that well becomes a sub-artesian well for the purpose of this Bill. That is the point the hon. member should consider when he records his vote on this measure. Most people would think that sub-artesian wells were related to the sub-artesian basin. but it is not so.

Th<>n again, hon. members should under­stand that this clause only refers to the irriga­tion area. The whole principle is wrong and obnoxious in the irrigation arects throughout the State. I object to the principle, and I record my protest on this clause.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease. Jl rrbert) f3.36 p.m.]: The intention is tn limit. the provision to the area proclaimed. I intend to move an amenrlment. which I have circulated.

Mr. MAHER: I have not gnt the amend· ment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: We intend to re,t,rict the operations of the Act to the limits of the known arteRian hasin, and I have circulated an amendment and a map setting out t.he area that we intend to rleal with under this Bill. It is the area known as the artesian basin.

Mr. MA HER: This is a peculiar way to handle a BilL An amendment is circulated at the last minute. This is a very important principle.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS: Members opposite h~tve been saying this afternoon j,hat. there is no reasonableness on the part of the Minister. I wish to show them that the Secretary for Public Lands is the apostle of sweet reasonableness.

Mr. MAHF.H: Yon have had this graph prenarcd. 'Vhy leave it to the last minute to be distributed?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is my business. I am in charge of this Bill, and naturally I put it before the Committ,eP, in the way I desire. I move the amendment and present it to the Com­mittee this :tfternoon as I am entitled to do. 8o far as I am con'cerned as the Minister in charge of this Bill it is the intention to limit its provisions to the known artesian waters of this State. I inknd to move an amendmEnt to the effect that part 7 of the Y\rater Act. dealing with artesian and sub­artcsi:tn wells or bores, shall, notwithstand­ing anything in the Act contained. be in force in relation to sub-artesian well" onlv in snch districts as the Governor in Council ehall from time to time by Order in Council declare.

I c~tn put forward concrete arguments whv it is necessarv for the Governm<'nt to apply the Bill to sub-artesian waters in that area. When cfficers of the department

Hon. P. Pease.]

674 Water Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

approach people who are sinking wells in the artesian areas they are told that it is sub-artesian water they are seeking. Under the Act, as it was emasculated by the·Moore Governrnent, any rnau who said he '''aS drilling for sub-artesian water could strike and take artesian waters. which in the inter­cots of tho people of ·the State must be prot2ctod. It is essential that a driller striking a flow of artesian waters should let the department know that he has struck an artesian flow. Subterfuge has been ""'' ctised in connection with artesian waters, and the Government want to prevent any­thing of that sort. The main object is to protect the artesian waters of the State, and to prevent the waste of water that is occurring. It is the duty of everyone, irre· spective of his brand of politics. to protect the artesian basin in Queensland. Mr. Speaker has pointed out how the artesian waters were diminishing and that in thirty years there would not bo any artesian water in the State. I can give concrete cases where quite recently a number of people in the State have commenced to sink on the artesian basin defined on that map. but when tho officers of the department interro­gated them thPy said they were not look;n!; for artesian !:rut for snb-artesian water. The known artesian basin is defined by that map. a copy of which I have gi,-en to the Leader of the Opposition. 1 am sorrv I could not circulate copies among all m.em· Lers. I could not o-et them readv. and I did ll'lt want to go t';', the expense of getting maps prepared.

The Government wish to protect this basin of :utosian water. After this Bill is pro· claimed any man who attempts to drill in ""'' portion of this artesian bolt without authoritv commits an offence. To-day .anv man drilling for sub-artesian wators in this belt mav. after he go!'s below a certain depth, strike a flow of artesian water. The dcnartmP•lt mu't h>tve some control of that water. vv(~ want to know whern bnres arc being sunk cvervwhcrc in that b'1sin. The dc!l'l.rtment mu't have the right to say whether a man shall bore in anv one of the squnes on that map. That is quite obvious. There m a v be two or three bores in a givPn square at present. and it may not be rio-ht t,J a Jlow a not her bore to be put there. 'rhe rcs•llt is the denartment will have full con­trol over the artesia·n belt. The new clause. the insertion of which I intend to move after dame~ 7, g-ives the department power to define the areas. and I purpose to define thf' artesoan belt as the area to which this Bill will apply.

Mr. DEACO:"J (Cunningham) [3.44 p.m.l: This is the first instance of a conversion in Parliament that I have ever known.

Mr. MOORE: Pressure has been brought to bear on the Minister.

Mr. DEACON: We appreciate it even if this conversion is the r~sult of 'pressure. He has seen the error of his ways and to a cert..in extent has repented.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: Do not rub it in.

Mr. DEACON: I am not. I congratulate him.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : It shows how stupid your amendment was.

Mr. MoORE: It shows how stupid the Bill was in the first place.

[Hon. P. Pease.

Mr. DEACON: It previously included the whole State, and now the Minister has exempted a large part of it as being sub· artesian. That is the part where the incon­,·enience and nuisance proposed by the Bill would be felt most. The amendment makes a lot of difference, and many farmers will have easier minds to-night when they know that they have been exempted from the possibility of being charged license fees on their farming areas.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It was never intended to charge license fees under the Biil.

Mr. DEACON: It was not clear, but that does not matter now. We have no need to argue on that point. All we want to do now that the Minister is converted is to see that nothing spoils it. Now that he is in ·a reasonable frame of mind, perhaps we shall suggest other changes to him in a friendly way. I am sure he will receive them in the same friendly spirit as they are offered, and that he will give them considera­tion. His amendment does away with the need for many amendments to the Bill. I quite understand that there are some people who will not obey the law and will smk wells on the chance of striking artesian water, telling the Minister that they were only sub-artesian wells. We can leave it to the Minister to deal with those people. The hon. gentleman's amendment is really a good one, and the effect of it, .as far as I know, is to exempt the eastern and northern part of Queensland, which is a very large area.

Mr. MAHER : The Minister says that. The amendment does not say it.

Mr. DEACON: I understood him to say so.

Mr. MAHER: The Minister says it. A GOVERNMENT ME~!BER: Do you not trust

him? Mr. DEACON: It can be seen that a

laro-e part of the State is not covered, and as Iong as he does not stretch those lines on the map we shall agree.

Clause 5, as read, agreed to. Clause 6-" Amendment of section IS­

Constitution of water and drainage, &c., area.s "-agreed to.

Clause 7-" New part Vl.A and new sections 5/;A and 54B "-

Mr. NICKLIN (liiurrumba) [3.46 p.m.]: I move the following amendment-

" On page 3, lines 4 to 40, both inclu­sive, omit proposed new section 54B :-

' [54n.] Where under any Act, law, statute, or agreement any local authoritv or water authority shall have constructed prior to the passing of 'The Water Acts Amendment Act of 1936' or subsequent to such Act of waterworks under 'The Water Authorities Acts, 1891 to 1931,' or works under this Act, or any sewer­age and/or drainage works under the Local Authorities Acts or under this Act and in connection with the cost of ~onstruction of same the Govern­ment has assisted or shall hereafter assist any such local authority or water authority by means of a loan or subsidy or a loan and subsidy or by guaranteeing any loan, it shall be the duty of such local authority or

Water Acts [30 SEPTEMBER.) Amendment Bill. 675

water authority concerned to keep all such works in a reasonable state of repair.

' At any time and from time to time the commissioner may enter upon any such works or any premises whereon same are situated and may inspect same.

'Upon any such inspection if it appears to the commissioner that any such works are not in a reasonable state of repair he may require the local authority or water authority con­cerned to do and execute within such time as he shall direct all such acts, matters, and things as shall in his opinion be necessary in order to place such works in a reasonable state of repair:

'Provided that the commissiOner may in his absolute discretion extend such time as aforesaid for such fur­ther period as he thinks fit.

'If .the loc:tl authority or water atd lwnty concerned fails within the time directed by the commissioner and I or any further period thereafter allowed by hirn to do and execute all snch ac·ts, matters, and things as may be so ordered by the commissioner the commissioner may himself do and execute all such acts matters and thinQ;s and may rccove~ tbe cost 'there­of frc'? the local authority or water a uthonty as a debt by action in any court of co1npctcnt jurisdiction.' 1

'

This proposed new section is an unwar­ranted and unnecessary interference with the powers of local author.itics. It is an example of the trend of the legislation that the Minister has introduced during this session. H':' is t:;tking powers to do practically every­thmg h1mself, or to enable the officers under him to do it. ,Surely local authorities. who are responsible bodies can be entrusted with a certain amount or' responsibilitv in con­nection with the work that the:v undertake! The clause says-

,, It shall be the duty of such local authority or water authority concerned to keep all such works in a reasonable state of repair."

"It shall be the duty of such local authority!" Surely the Minister does not think that a local authority or water authority that borrows up to, say, £50,000 will let the works that it constructs go to wrack and ruin. After all, the security for the loan is not only the works constructed in most cases, but also the ratable value of the land. Further on, the clause says-

" At an:v time and from time to time the commis.;ioner may enter upon any such works or any premises whereon same are situated and ma:v inspect same."

Inspectors may run all over the works of a local authority at any time to see that they are kept in a proper state of repair. \Ve must admit that as the Government have assumed some financial responsibility in the undertakings, they have a right to see that thcv are kept in a reasonable state of repair, but if all lenders adopted the same attitude, the borrower would have some person calling every two or three days to see. for instance. if his house was painted, or if it was kept in a proper state of repair. Further on, the Minister is given power to

01·dm· any necessary repairs to be don~, but responsible local authorities employ engmeers and other officials to see that the undertak­ings are kept in a proper state of repair. What would the ratepayers think if a local a.uthority allowed the ·undertaking to fall into disrepair?~ As a rule, they watch their representatives very zealously to see that they do their work properly, and it is part of their job to see that the undertakings are maintained in a proper state of repair. The section is unnecessary.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) f3.51 p.m.]: The clause gives the Commissioner of Irrig·ation and w·ater Supply the necessary authority to inspect water supplies, sewerage, and drainage works constructed by local authori­ties or water authorities under a loan or loan and subsidy provided by the Govern­ment. Surely hon. members opposite are not going to argue that the Government should not have that right. or that the people that they represent and who find the money should not be allowf'd to see that the works are safeguarded! If hon. members opposite borrowed a sum of money from a bank, would they argue that the bank should not haYe the right to come along fwm time to time to see that the property was being maintained in a proper state of repair?

The position to-day is different from that of some yf'ars ago, because of the introduc­tion of the loan-subsidy scheme. Almost all of the water and sewerage schem"' that are being carried out in the State are sub­sidised bv the Government. £1 for £1. In most instances the monev. required for all the big sewerage schemes is provided by the Government. It is only in the rase of Townsville, where the money for a sewera!C(e scheme was borrowed from another source, that that is not the case. but. ewn there, the. loan is guaranteed by the Government, wh10h means that the Governm<'nt are virtu­ally responsible for the whole of the money that is required. ·

The Government would be neglecting their duty to the people of the State if they did not take unto themselves power to inspect these water supply and sewerage schemes from time to time. We have no authority to-day to enter upon any of these works unless the local authority asks us to do so, yet it ·is the people's money that provides the whole of these facilities. Surely hon. members opposite would not say for one moment that we should not have that right !

I have in mind a very big water supply that I visited some years ago as Secretary for Public Lands. I found some serious defects in the scheme. I sent along my officers, and they bore out what I had not only been told, but also observed for myself, that there was a serious defect in the structure. Thousands of pounds of loan money advanced by the Government were involved in the scheme. \Vhen I approached the local authority it told us it would not remedv the defect. but if the Government wanted to do so they could go ahead and do it. Will the Opposition say that when the Government found this defect existed and had a report from their engineer they should not have the right to say to that local authority, "You must go ahead and do what is required ; if you do not do it, it will be done for you at your expense." I cannot understand hon. members opposite in moving the amendment. Do they contend

Hon, P. Pease.]

676 Water Acts [ASSEMBLY.] A.mendment Bill.

that after the Government make a loan available to a local authority and subsidise it £1 for £1 that their control ceases on the completion of the work, and that they should allow a local authority to endanger that undertaking?

From what I have read, my remarks apply not only to water supply schemes, but also to sewerage schemes. Everyone realises what is happening in Brisbane. Only recently it was necessary for the Brisbane City Council to ask the Government to have a survey made of the main sewer. That survey disclosed very serious faults. It should not be necessary for the Government to be asked to do that. A considerable sum of Government money is involved, and the Government should have the right to make an inspection when it is advisable, and, if necessary, approach the local authorities and inform them that certain things require to be done. I understand hon. members opposite to sa.v that the Government should invest a considerable amount of the people's money in water supply and sewerage schemes, and that immediately the schemes are completed and out of the hands of the department they cannot have them inspected? Many of these loans are for a period of thirty years. All this clause seeks to do is to give the GoYern­ment authority to inspect any scheme from time to time, and if a fault is disclosed to request the local authority to attend to it.

Mr. MAHER (TV est M or et on) [3.58 p.m.]: A local authority borrows a sum of money from the Treasurer, and in return gives mcuritv. It meets its interest and redemp­tion obligations on the due date. What right. then, has the Minister to meddle in its affairs? There is no analogy whatever between that tran,action and the transaction betw-een a money-lender or a f-lnanclal insti­tution •<tn.d a cliPnt. I have borrowed large sums cf money from banks and used them in a manner I deemed to b3 rig-ht without any dictation from a bank official as to whether I was spending it judiciously or otherwise. All the bank bothered itself about was that I had the security for- the eventual repayment of the money, and that the interest was paid on its due date. That is a'l the Minister should concern himself about. He has no right to dominate a local authoritv. His action is tantamount to an unwarranted interference with its rights. It has its obligations to the Minister and meets them. If the Minister proposed that in the event of failure to meet their obligations the Government should take certain steps, there would be some sense in it. It is unfair to interfere in the internal affairs of a local authority as this clause proposes. The Minister, after all, is passing a censure on the members of the local authority, who represent the electors, because in effect he says they are unfitted to look after its water or sewerage scheme in which loan monev has been invested. •

Mr. JESSON: Neither they arc-some of them.

Mr. MAHER : They say comparisons are odious, so I shall not make the comparison. Some of the finest types of men in Queens­land arc associated with local government work, an.d they give their services free. They have a proper sense of responsibility and know what is expected of them. When these jobs that are dealt with in this clause come into account, these men can be

[Hon. P. Pease.

depended upon to care for the interests of the electors. If they happened not to do so, if they allowed these assets to waste or get into a state of disrepair, then the electors would deal with them_ They are the people who should bring them to hook and not the Minister.

The whole trend of legislation to-day is to meddle with the affairs of local authorities. Surely these are bodies of sensible men who have some understanding of local problems, and what is required of them? When they borrow that money they know what interest has to be paid, and they faithfully discharge their obligations. If by any chance they fail in carrying out their duty, there is always some interested local body who will 'oon bring pressure to bear on them. The matter would probably develop into a local discussion, and might result-it has hap­pened-in certain aldermen's losing their 'l"ats on the council. There is absolutely 110 need for a clause of this kind. The hon. trH>mber for Murrumba is to be commended for bring-ing forward an amendment of this kind, which seeks to give to the local auth­orities their rights and to restrain the Government who are interfering a little undulv with the internal affairs of looal authorities.

Mr. JESSO"" (K ennedy) [4.2 p.m.]: It i' apparent that the Leader of the Opposi­tion has not grasped the point. It is beyond question that the Government should have power to send an officer to look at the various works. The hon. gentleman referred to councillors who g-ave their services free. It is true that they do. When I interjected, I <1 id not mean t0 say they were all scoun­drels. but there are some who are scoundrels.

Mr. MAHER: Some members of Parlia­ment come under that category.

Mr. JESSON : The hon. gentleman is speaking for himself. I know of instances where local authorities would not do anything to certain works because it would mean a few

-vence added to the rates. I know of insto·nce'l in the North where incompetent ''no:ineers were appointed by the local authority, and the mains were blocked up a 11 over the town. That is happening in Cairns. Only a f<'w weeks ag-o the Secretary for Public Lands had to send Mr. Parkinson to M0ssmen to prevent them from putting­in pipe' that were no good.

This clause is necessary, and the Minister i' to be commended for nutting- it in the Rill. It will have the effect of protecting the people's money from unscrupulous eng-i­neers and some members of local authorities who cannot see any further than the length of their arms.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningham) [4.5 p.m.]: There are works in various parts of Queens­land that have been carried out by loan money, and are no longer necessary. At one time the local authorities borrowed money for the purpose of sinking wells on the Downs. Those wells are there still, but the need for them has vanished, because every farmer has his own water supply. Money was borrowed to sink them, but they are now covered over and are not kept in order. Under this clause the Minister could say that they should be kept in order, although it would be all to no purpose.

Mr. JESSON: There is common sense in everything.

Water Acts [30 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 677

Mr. DEACO:'<: Such things as that hap· pened all over the country. Perhaps there were instances in the North, in the Kennedy electorate, where local authorities have not lived up to their obligations, but the main thing is that the people of that area are liable for the monev. So far as the Minister is concerned, the Government have their security and can get their money. The people living in the district can surely be trusted to look after their own local authori­ties and keep the members in order. Thcv can dismiss them if they choose. They ar~ just as capable of judging who are the best men for local government as of judging who is the best man to represent them in Parlia­ment. If the works on which they ow0 money aro not looked after, there is probably some reasm> for it, and in any case though the works are neglected the money has to be repaid. No good is to be gained by loading the Bill with unnecessary powers when one power already given is sufficient to cover everything. The Treasury has the power to levy a rate if they neglect their job. The Treasurer has full security. This provieion is quite unnecessary, and could well be omitted.

Mr. BRA~D (lsis) [4.8 p.m.]: The first question I would ask is: If the Minister obtains this power, is he going to use it?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAl'fDS : Only if necessary.

Mr. BRAND : It is questionable whether it will ever b.J used. There is no local authority in charge of waterworks or any other works coming within the provisions of this Bill that would not keep them in a decent state of repair.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I can give you concrete cases where they do not.

Mr. BRA:'\D: Though the Minister obtain, this power he will not exercise it. Political pressure will prevent him. I submit that adequate reasons have been advanced why the Minister should allow this matter to remain in the hands of the elected repre­sentatives of the people.

The provision can be made to operate very harshly. After a subsidised loan has been granted for waterworks to enable land to be irrigated, the Minister in his wisdom may send along an officer of his department to insist on certain further works. In the Bingera area the people were very disturbed about this state of affairs. Before embark­ing on a new work they considered very carefully what the conditions would be and I know perfectly well that if anything' were to happen to these works they would Le involved in a very heavy loss. The firm concerned repaid to the Government all it ~orrowcd from them, and should not be mvolved under a clause such as this. Thev should not be called upon by the Minister to spend a large qum of money on work that they consider is not essential. I cannot understand why the Minister wants such a power as this to enable him to protect the assets of the Crown. After all, he is well protected. A clause such as this can be ,·ery harassing; '!'nd serve no useful purpose. I hope the Mmtster will accept the amend­ment.

AmenJment (Jir. Nicklin) negatived. Clause 7, as read, agreed to.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) [4.11 p.m.]: I move the following amendment :-

" On page 3, after clause 7, insert the following new clause-

' 8. The principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion therein after the headnote 'Part VII.-Artesian and Sub-artesian Wells or Bores,' and before section fifty-five thereof, of the following new section 54c, namely-

' [54c.] Notwithstanding anything in this Act contained, the provisions of this Part VII. of this Act shall, in relation to sub-artesian wells, be in force only in such districts as the Governor in Council shall, from time to timE\ by Order in Council declare.' "

Ae I told the Committee previously, we propose declaring what is known as the artesian belt of this State to be the district contemplated by the new section. It will take in approximately what we know as the artesian basin in Queensland.

I want to emphasise that it is necessary to have this power in that basin, and it is necessarv to include sub-artesian water under tho Act: I have a report from our district engineer at St. George, dated 12th September of this year. He points out that a borer had not applied for any license, which, even nnder the present Act he should have done, because he was really boring for artesian water. He had not applied for a license, because, he said, he was drilling for sub­artesian water, and that it was not necessary for Iiim to give notice to the department or apply for a. license for a sub-artesian well. A flow was struck at a depth of 1,130 feet. That was artesian water, but he did not stop at that-showing clearly that it was not sub-artesian water he was drillino- for. He went down a further 240 feet. right into the artesian strata for water that was really artesian. because it gushed out. That defeated the principles of the Act. He should have had to give notice to the department or obtained permission to drill, because he was looking for artesian water. He was not looking for sub-artesian water, as he said he was. That is not the only case. We have similar ones.

M e'11bers will realise that the main object of this Bill is to protect the artesian water of the State in such a way that more wells will not be sunk in certain areas than should be allowed. That is the reaeon why we intro­duced this amendment. We warit to make the position quite clear.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [4.15 p.m.]: I am sorry that the Minister did not let us have a cor,ry of the amendment and the map at an earlier stage. It is awkward to have to consider an amendment that strikes a big- blow at the principles contained in the Bill as soon as we go into Committee. It is no use saying it was not ready, because it was quite likely we should have reached the Committee stage on this Bill before lunch. Courtesy costs nothing, and the iron. gentleman might have been good enough to let me have it then.

However, a very substantial alteration has been made in the principle of the Bill by the Minister's amendment. There is no question that he has altered the Bill in principle. Prior to the Minister's bringing forward the new clause, it is unque,tionable

Mr. Maher.l

678 Water Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

that wells outside th2 artesian belt came within the scope of the Bill. The effect of the Minister's new clause may be to remove those wells outside the artesian belt or basin from the scope of the Bill. Although the Minister tells us that it is his intention to proclaim an area in accordance with the map that he has had prepared and defines the artesian basin, the amendment that he has submitted is not as clear as his words. After all, it is not what the Minister says, it is what the Bill says that will count. The new section reads-

" Notwithstanding anything in this Act contained, the provisions of this part VII. of this Act shall, in relation to sub-artesian wells, bP in force onlv in such districts as the Governor in Council shall, from time to time, by Order in Council declare."

The Minister's intentions may be good but the door is left wide open to include' any part of the State by proclamation. What has the Minister got in mind? Is he subtle enough to think that after criticism has died down he can gradually proclaim other areas ancl bring in wells, as was done by a previ­ous Labour Government in the principal Act {which is there for anyone to read), or does he mean what he says and that only such areas will be proclaimed as are shaded in the map furnished to the Committee? If he was definite that the Bill would apply only to the artesian basin we should have no objection, but why has he moved an amendment that leaves the door wide open to the extension of the Bill to other areas? Hon. members opposite are vitally concerned in the matter, too, and it is only right that they should understand the position fully. I hope that they do. Although the Minister has said one thing-and he may intend to do what he says-we can be guided only by what is set out in the Bill. The Minister or any subsequ-ent Minist0r will have power to proclaim an area outside the artesian basin and thus bring in wells. That is a very important point, and I should like hon. members opposite to take it into account.

Mr. JESSON: Suppose a big artesian bore was put down outside the area?

Mr. MAHER: The geological surveys of Queensland do not suggest that possibilitv at all. The artesian belt has been well defined, and the Minister knows it. It is not likely that anything of the kind sug­gested by the hon. member for Kennedy would happen. but it is possible that small farmers in his electorate may find them­selves in a proclaimed area.

Mr. JESSON: No. I trust the Minister. He would not do anything like that.

Mr. MAHER : I do not distrust him, but we must consider the Bill as it stands.

Mr. JESSON: You do not give him credit for any common sense.

Mr. MAHER: The clause could have been drafted in such a way as to confine the operations of the Bill to the artesian basin in accordance with the map, which could be incorporated in the Bill. The Minister now seeks to leave the door wide open for subsequent action by his department. I do not like the amendment at all.

Mr. BRAND (lsis) [4.21 p.m.]: The Minis­ter has removed the objections that we offered during the second reading of the

[.M1· . .Maher.

Bill, and he is now doing what the Opposi­tion wanted him to do at that stage, that is, to provide that the Bill shall not apply to sub-artesian areas. We have never objected to the control of the artesian basin, because that was done by the Moore Government, but I do ask the Minister to go the whole distance and to make it clear that the Bill shall not apply to areas outside the artesian basin. If he does that he will have exonerated himself in our eyes, and he will have given an undertaking to people outside the artesian basin that they will not be harassed under the Bill.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningham) [4.24 p.m.]: \¥hen the Minister first anncunced his amendment I thought it was a good one, but I have examined it since and realise I was pr-<mature in giving· it my blessing. He has includccl a large part of my electorate in the artesian basin, which makes a lot of difference. There is no artesian water in my electorate, and none has ever been found in it. The Minister also embraces a large part of the Darling Do":ns in the ertcs;an belt, although no artesian water has been found in that district. It would be much better if the Minister had removed from the Bill all reference to the sub­artesian b0lt. As it is. he can at his own sweet will extend the boundaries of a. distrid. If he wishes he can shift the bounclarv HiO miks. 1 certainly was prema.­ture in" conr.:ratulating him on improving the Bill fie ha< not improved it much at all. because it will int<•rfcre with people who are already in difficulties. A few months ago they were· all in cl_ifficulties regarding water. A drought prevailed, and the surface water over a la.rp-e ·area com­pletely dried up. There was not a waterhole or dam with anv Y.'ater in it. The people immediatelv star~tcd sinking and boring for w"ter. Un-der this Bill those people will h;ve to g-o through manv formalities b<.:fore ],eina- allowed to bore for water, and the possibility is that ma':Y of thPir stock will die of thirst. There I< no reason why the Minister should plece "· difficult.'; worse than drought in the prtth of these people.

1 o-ive the Minister credit for being sincer<' a~d~I want to bP siPcere with him by noint· ino- out where he ha~ erred. that is. by in~luding the •ub-artesian belt in this ~ill. This amendment will enable a succeo~lmg ::\1inister to extend the area at any t~m.e. That is a weakness in the Bill. Tlto Mmis­iei" mav think he is getting ?ver ~he clifficultv but he mav now see he Js loavmg lwhind ·him the possibilitv of troub;P for. a big section who have enough difficulties to face without his adding to them. We do not want any settler m the closelY: settled areas to he faced with the need of having to go . through form~lities before sinking to obtam water for h1s stock, and taking out a. licence each year.

Mr. KING: Is the hon. member supporting the Bill?

Mr. DEAC0;\1: No, but I am not surprised at the hon. member's supporting it, because he does not know anvthing about sub-artesian or artesian water, or farming or settlement of anv kind. That is the trouble with the Gover-nment. There are too many members on the Government side of the Chamber who do not understand these subjects, and "will not listen to anybody who doe,, understand them.

Water Acti (30 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 679

I hope the Minister will improve the Bill­and thus improve his own reputation-by altering it in the manner suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, that is, by exempt­ing altogether the sub-artesian belt. We know where the artesian water stops, and we should make a clean-cut line and end tne trouble. We do not want anything so inde­firnte as the clause in the Bill.

Mr. MAHER (West 111"oreton) [4.32 p.m.]: I move the following amendment to the proposed new clause:-

" Omit the words-' such districts ~s the Governor in Council shall, .from time to time by Order in Council declare ' '

and insert in lieu thereof the words-' the artesian basin as geologically knO\Vll.' "

The artesian basin is well defined, and it has been geologically determined. If the proposal of the Minister is confined to that belt there cannot be any objection to it from this side of the Committee. The purport of the amendment is obvious, and I commend it to the Minister.

Amendment (Mr. Maher) negatived. ~ew clause 8, as read, agreed to. Clause 8-'' Amendment of section 55-

Artesian welTs to be licensed"-

Mr. MAHER (West "Moreton) [4.34 p.m.]: This clause provides-

" No sub-artesian well shall be com­menced and no sub-artesian well existing at the passing of 'The Water Acts Amendment Act of 1936 ' or thereafter constructed shall be enlarged, deepened, or altered in any manner unless-

(a) By the Commissioner as the author­ised officer of the Crown; or

(b) In pursuance of a license under this Act."

That is a very drastic provision. It is ridiculous to suggest that the owner of a sub-artesian bore should not, in emergency, enlarge or deepen his bore without having permission from an authorised officer of the Crown. It is not difficult to visualise an emergency in summer, when stock are in need of water. Action is essential to make the bore function, yet before a man could legally make such alterations he must secure the authority of the Commissioner, or some other authorised officer of the Crown. That would entail a needless loss of time, whether it was done by telephone or telegraph. How far could a Government officer help a man in a difficulty when his bore needed enlarging or deepening or altering?

All these difficulties can occur, and occur very quickly, in connection with sub­artesian waters. Fine drifting sand might get in the bore casing and prevent the water from: coming through . and the only way to remedy the defect might be to get a driller to do the job. The work might have to be done very quickly in order to save stock. Is it fair to insist that a man who has to meet an emergency of that kind shall travel some distance in the middle of the summer in order to get authority to carry out the work? All selectors and graziers are not on the telephone. The majority are not. The Minister would b~ well advised not to include a clause of that kind in the Bill.

Moreover, a man is not allowed to enlarge, deepen, or alter a well in any manner unless in pursuance of a. license under the Act. There may be a measure of justification for that, although members of the Opposition feel that it is perfectly wrong to have sub­artesian bores licensed at all. They are not in any way similar to artesian bores. It is admitted beyond question that some measure of central is needed so far as artesian water is concerned, but I am referring to sub­artesia.n bores, where the water does not flow over the bore casing, and it has to be pumped up either by an engine or windmill. There is no waste of water. Moreover, it is my opinion-having had a long experience in that country-that hundreds and hundreds of- such bores could still be put down in the sub-artesian belt without in any way causing a diminution in the supply. Ther8 seem to be numerous springs a.nd streams of some sort, soakages underneath the sur­face, that feed tbese bores and even aftn some have been pumped dry they come in again. There is no waste of water there at all. Why a man who is not causing any waste of water should be called upon to have a license and pay a fee I cannot under­stand. It is a continuance of provisions con­tained in the principal Act of 1926 which cause such a great outcry.

It is rather a pity the Minister has seen fit to include provisions that are obnoxious to those men who are battling against diffi­cult conditions in the sub-artesian belt. I dislike that portion of the clause, and I have an amendment to the subclause that I will move later.

Clause 8, as read, agreed tu. Clause 9-"Amlndment of section[}(]­

Licenses." Mr. MAHER (West Jioreton) [4.40 p.m.]:

I move the following amendment :-"On page 4, lines 40 to 46, omit the

following words :-" (ii.) In subsection two, after the

wor-d ' expedient,' the following words are inserted, namely:-

' Provided that before making any inquiry as aforesaid the commis­sioner shall require from the appli­cant a dPposit of money in such amount as he considers reasonably sufficient to defray the expenses to be incurred bv him in respect of such inquiry.'''

[s it right that a man should have to defray the expenses of an inquiry as to whether he shall ha vc certain repairs or alterations carried out on a sub-artesian bore? After application has been made the commissioner may require from the appli­cant a deposit of money reasonably sufficient to defray such expenses? Is it fair. that a man who is "up against it "-with his bore not operatin(l' and his stock thirsting for water-should not onlv have to have a license, not only have to give notification of his intention to carry out certain alterations, but also lodge a sum of money to defray the exl?enses of a visit by some Government authonty or inspector to determine on the spot whether the job should or should no',­be done? I submit that is out of all reason. Some men find it hard enough t0 obtain the money to carry out repairs to their bores without having to pay up to £10 to bring an inspector, besides paying his railway fare, hotel expenses. and motor

Mr. Maker.]

680 Water Acts [ASSEMBLY.] . Amendment Bill.

charges out. to the bore. That is what the Bill lays down, and I think the Minister should be reasonable in matters of that kind. He cannot possibly justify the inclusion of a clause that is going to be a heavy expense on men in the sub-artesian belt because of the demand of a deposit of money. What deposit? It may be £5. It certainly would not be less. It may be £10. It certainly will not be Ss. to cover the cost of such an inspection. It is not only the amount of money the man has to lodge, but the unpleasantness of the situation that arises through his having to wait until the inspector arrives. together with the loss and expense that would be entailed.

I am inclined to think that in an emer­gency I have outlined a man would not be prepared to wait. In such circumstances, the Minister is only inviting the people to break the law. A man might have stock in need of water. Valuable hours might be lost while waiting for the Government officer to arrive and say whether the work should be carried out or not. Then monev has to be lodged to obtain such a visit of i';}spection. If I know Western men, they simply would not do it.

Mr. FOLEY : You cannot assemble a boring plant in five minutes.

Mr. MAHER: No. But on the other hand it frequently might happen that the work could be done without a driller. Thercl are men who are used to that class of work, who if the trouble is not too deep· seated can carry out effective repairs with­out the necessity of securing- a boring plant. In cases where a boring plant was needed, there might be delay in getting the plant, and there would be time to secure the ser­vices of an inspector. I should say that in at least 60 per cent. of the cases where there are stoppages in bore casings or where alterations are required to be made, the work could be carried out by men used to that work without obtaining a boring plant. In a case where a boring plant was not necessary, would it be fair that that man should have to pay a deposit of money before he could get his bore attended to? I think it is an unreasonable provision. It calls upon a man in a very difficult emergency to lodge a sum of money before any attention will be given to his bore. He would have to await the arrival of an officer from the Suq-Department of Irrigation and \Vater Supply to decide whether the bore should be enlarged or deepened. After all, there are men who are used to that class of work, and they are prepared to enlarge, deepen, or alter bores at short notice. Is it right that the Government should demar.cl a sum of money before the work can pro­ceed? Is it right that they should have to a wait the arrival of an officer of the depart­ment to pronounce judgment on the matter? I ask the Minister to consider the amend­ment favourably. That would remove the obligation of having to lodge a sum of money before the work of altering or deepening a bore was carried out.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, H erbert) [4.45 p.m.]: I have no intention of accepting the amend­ment. The clause means that the commis­sioner shall require a deposit to be paid to cover the expense of the railway fares of any _officer, if on an application for an artesian or sub-artesian license, it is found necessary to hold an inquiry. Inquiries will

[Mr. Maker.

not be held unless they are absolutely essential. If it is necessary to hold an inquiry, surely the Opposition will not say that the Crown should bear the expense of that officer's fare! Demands will not be made except in extreme cases. Nobody can say that the officer in charge of the Sub­Department of Irrigation and \Vater Supplv is an idiot. He is not going to put any­body to any expense unless there is some need for it.

I should like to point out again that the Bill does not provide for license fees. I have had letters from grazing bodies pro­testing against the fees to be charged under the Bill, but there will be no fees unless some expenditure is incurred by the Crown.

Mr. MOORE : You will make fees by regu­lation.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS: Fees will be provided if expenditure is incurred by the Government, but not other­wise. No fee will be charged for an appli­cation. If a man makes an application for a license for a new artesian well or for enlarging, deepening, or altering an existing well, and it is considered neces>ary that an officer of the department should be sent to inve,tigate, the Crown should J10t bear the expense. T'here will be inquiries on1v in extreme cases and where it is considered absolutely necessary, but in those circum­stance' the r'rown shonld be reimbursed the cost of sending an officer out for that pur­pose. His salary is paid by the Crown, and the individual who mRkes thA applice.tion is not called upon to bear any part of it. Hon. members opposite continually complain that Government department• are wasting money, but is it not only fair to provide that when an inquiry has to be made into the question whether a well should be altered or de<;pened the cost of fares, etc., incurred in sending out an officer should be borne by the applicant?

I emphasise again that there are no fees and that we are the only Government in Australia who do not charge fees. I pointed out on a previous occasion that where water is taken from rivers in Victoria and New South Wales fees are charged, and I also mentioned that in respect of a border river no fees are charged in Queenslandh whereas they are charged in New Sout Wales. There will be no fees under this Bill unless some expense is incurred by the Crown. If it is necessary to weir a river to provide water, then fees will be charged, and they will be determined on the basis of the amount expended by the Government in pro­viding the facility. Again I say that if the Crown has to make an inquiry on behalf of an applicant it is only fair that he should bear cost of travelling expenses. In such a case something is being done for the benefit of the man concerned.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) [4.51 p.m.]: I fail to see where there will be any benefit for the man who sinks the bore, because the basis of the Bill is that it shall also be for the benefit of other people. The Minister may intend to administer the law in the wav that he has suggested, but he is wrong when he says that an inquiry will be held only in extrem~ cases. The Act says-

" Every application for a license for any new artesian or sub-artesian well, or for enlarging, deepening, or actering any existing artesian or sub-·artesian well,

Water Acts [30 SEPTEMBER] Amendment Bill. 681

shall be made to the commicsioner in the form prescribed, together with a statement of the purposes for which it is proposed to utilise the water.

" On application being so made, the conun1s::.ioncr shall caus8 sach inquiry to be made as to the desirableness of grant· ing the application as he may consider expedient."

There is no " rnay 11 there, or any n1ention of extreme cases. If a man wants to deepen his well he must make application for a license. Although the Bill would apply only to the artesian basin. it must be remem­bered that it extends· as far south as Cecil l'lains, Dalby, and cYen Goondiwindi, and that in those areas there are a number of comparatively shallow wells ranging from 30 feet, 40 feet, and 50 feet to 200 feet, but they cannot be regarded as bores affectmg the artesian supply. They are really wells, but no discretion is given to the Minister or to the commissioner to sav that it shall not be necessary to carry out an i~vestigation, because the Act says that on receipt of every application an officer shall go out.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: :No.

Mr. MOORE : That is what the Act says, and the elau'e reads-

" Provided that before making any inquiry as aforesaid the commissioner shall require from the applicant a deposit of money in such a manner as he considers reasonably sufficient to defray the expenses to be incurred by him in reRpect to Ruch inquiry."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Incurred by him.

Mr. MOORE: Certainly. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : We

would not send an officer from Brisbane if there was one nearer at hand.

Mr. MOORE : I d0 not know where the commissioner has an officer.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : For instance, the officer at Dalby would make inquiries concerning applications from tha.t district.

Mr. MOO RE: It is a question whether it is necessary to make inquiries. The clause says that inquiries shall be made on receipt of the application. I <lo n0t know whether an inquiry is made, but the Act. says it must be made.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : I can assure you the department will not make a charge unless it actually h':s to _pay. to send an officer to make the mvest1gat10n. The local officer at Dalby makes reports in respect of that district.

Mr. MOORE: I du not see much value• in ;tipulating that a man must wait for depart­mental authority before sinking a sub· artesian bore or well to obtain water for his stock. I am quite satisfied that this clause will not be administered. Any stock­owner whose water suddenlv gives out will not get the prescribed form in order to send in 'an application to deepen his well before commencing the work that is neces­sary in order to get water for his thirsty stock. I am quite satisfied, too, that under such circumstances no Government would be game to act unreasonably and seek to put a man in gaol for doing so.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That !•mvision in the 1926 Act stood fot· five years.

Mr. MOORE: lt VIas never administere-d. That appliod only to artP'-ian bores, but this clause brings in sub-artesian bores and ,,-ells that had nothing to do with artPsian water.

The SECRETARY FOR Pu~LI~ L I~DS : The 1926 Act applied to sub-artesian bores.

Mr. MOORE : It was not administered. The Act was "' dead letter because so many farmers met and resolved not to have any· thing to do with it. The Government backed down and did nothing. That is one reason why the Act was amended in 1931. lt was ridiculous to have an Act on the statute-book when it was not administered, and was practie<J.lly a dead letter. It seems t•) me that if a clause is inserted in an Act of Parliament that it should be enforced. If a man possessing a well from 20 to 200 feet deep is desirous of deepening it because his water gives out, he will now be forced to make application, and the commissioner shall force an inquiry to be made, and the Minister says n0w that before that officer leaves Brisbane a deposit must be paid by the applicant in respect of railway fares. If the Act is properly carried out that will be a hardship on a large number of people, but if it is gomg to remain a dead letter like the 1926 Act did up to 1931 much harm will not be done.

Quest;on-" That the w0rds proposed to be omitted from clause 9 (Mr. JJ.ahcr's amendmcn') stand part of the clause"­put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 36. Mr Brassington Mr. Jesson

Keogh King Larcombe

Bruce Bulcock Clark Conroy Cooper Copley, P. K Donnelly Duggan Dunstan Foley Gair Gledson Hanlon Ha yes Healy Hilt on Hislop Hynes

M ann M cLean Mullan O'Keefe Pease Riordan Smith Walsh Waters 'Wellington Williams, H.

Tellers: Coil ins Power

NoEs, 9

Mr. Bell Brand Daniel Deacon Edwards Maher

Mr. Moore

Tellers: Clayton Plunkett

PAlRS. AYES,

Mr. Taylor Dash Copley, W. J. Wiiliams, T. L. Stop ford

NOES.

Mr. Muller Walker Nimmo Maxwel! Russell

Resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 9, as read, agreed to. Clauses 10 and 11 agreed to.

Mr. illoore.]

682 ~Water Acts [ASSEMBLY.J Amendment Bill.

Clause 12-" i!mendment of section 59-D,·illers to be licensed"-

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) [5.5 p.m.]: I move the following amendment:-

" On page 5, lines 32 and 33, omit the words-

' In subsection 1, after the word "artesian," the words "or sub­artesian '' are inserted.'

and insert in lieu thereof the words­' In subsection 1. after the word " well," the words " or on or in con­nection with anv sub-artesian well if the Minister so· directs." ' "

Th~ clause in the principal Act reads-" No person shall be employed as a

driller on or in connection with any artesian well unless he is the holder of a driller's license issued by the com­rnissioner.''

Kow the !Hinister proposes to include "sub­artesian" wells, which would mean that nobody could be employed on deepening or enlarging a sub-artesian bore or well unless he was a licensed driller. I do not wish to take away the power from the Minister to insist on a licensed driller in the artesian basin on a very deep sub-artesian well that may do down 600 or 700, or even 2,000 feet. Large numbers of sub-artesian wells are com­paratively shallow, ranging from twenty to 200 feet, and it does not seem necessary that the man employed to deepen them should be a licensed driller. I do not wish the people who have ordinary sub-artesian wells, who may happen to be in an area such as the Ceci] Plains or Dalby area to be compelled to emplov a licensed driller when there is no need for it.

I am not objecting to the Minister's having full control of licensed drillers operating on deep sub-artesian bores in the artesian basin, or on especially deep sub-artesian bores, or artesian bores that have stopped flowing, but there does not seem to be any reason why the ordinary man who sinks a well should have to have a licensed driller to do it. I have done a good deal of that work myself. I am referring to the ordinary

·shallow sub-artesian well to be found on the Downs. Why should it be necessary to have a licensed driller in such cases ? Thev are not always easy to obtain. The men who drill the ordinary shallow sub-artesian bores are not licensed, and they have an ordinary boring machine. The man who 'Pnts down a well 120 feet or 130 feet does not need a license to do so. Now that sub-artesian bores are brought within the provisions of the Act, irrespective of the depth of the well, a licensed driller must carry out the work. The Minister will understand that I ar(l not asking for anything unreasonable. When an application is made, a statement is given as to the depth of the bore, and it is left in the hands of the Minister to decidE> whether it is necessary that the man employed should be a licensed driller. I am referring to the case of the ordinary sub-artesian wells that are to be found in almost every paddock. It should not be necessary for the Minister to say that the owners should employ licensed drillers on such wells. The Minister shoulrl be reasonable enough to see the force of my suggestion, and accept the amendment. As the clause stands at present, it will create

[Mr. Moore.

an unnecessary hardship, and selectors will find it difficult to get licensed drillers. They do not grow on windmills. •

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. P. Pease, Herbert) f5.8 p.m.]: I can assure the Deputy Leader of the Op'Position that the obtaining of a license is not quite so hard as he says.

Mr. MAHER: Would a man sinking a well need a ·driller's license?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: He is not .going to sink a well in the artesian basin.

Mr. MAHER: There are hundreds of them.

The SECRETARY FOR PVBLIC LANDS: I have pointed out that the operations of the Bill are being confined to the known artesian basin. If we did not insist on their having drillers' licenses, a good deal of con­fusion would arise. It must be understood that in the artesian area it is necessary to have men who are quite capable and efficient for the job. As I have already pointed out. quite a number of people have informed officers of the department that they are seek­ing sub-artesian water. whereas, they arc after artesian water. I honostlv believe that~ the amendment is not necessilry, and I can assure the Committee that drillers' licenses will not be hard to obtain.

The engineer of the sub-department is not going to be arbitrary in the matter. So long as a man has the necessary qualifica­tions, a license will issue. The number of licenses will not bo restricted. Any man ean apply for a drillers' license, but if we allowed an unqualified person to drill, we might get back to the old situation, and serious trouble might occur again with men who were trying to evade the Act by saying that they were looking for sub-artesian water, or merely sinking a well. It might cause a serious diminution in the supply of artesian waters. If hon. members will remember that we intend to confine ·the provision to the artesian basin, they will see that the amend­ment is not really necessary.

The officer in charge of the department is a competent man and will not hold up appli­cations for licenses. We have very competent officers. and I am quite satisfied that there will be no delay in the issue of drillers' licenses. No obstacles will be placed in the way of competent mBn. I think it would really be rather dangerous to accept the amendment.

Mr. DEACON (('111mingham) [5.14 p.m.]: I do not know what the authorities say about the artesian basin, but in places on this map the Minister has had prepared, there arc no known artesian bores. The whole supp]v is sub-artesian. The Minister can quite· understand that the ordinary farmer could not afford the I uxu ry of having artesian v, atcr. The cost would be practicallv pro­hibitive to most farmers. and it is not likclv any artesian bores will be sunk, except bv the Government. In such a ease. the Government would take care of the bore. The lines mftrked on the map embrace a la.r!!e area of closely-settled country. Chin­chilla is includccl. and around that centre the country is closely settled, but there are no artesian bores there. They are all sub· artesian, and there are many of them, b~came the settlers have to provide their own

Water Acts, Etc., Bill. [30 SEPTEMBER.] Wool Draft, Etc., Biii. 683

water. You will see thirty or forty wind­mills all pumping water f~om shallow sub­artesian bores. Sub-artesJan water i.3 t!1o main supply. They have difficulty at times in getting bores deepened. A provision sucl> as thts cannot be put into effect in closely­settled country, and it i: d no benefit eitlwr to the countrv or to the Government. TlH• Minister 1 eco'gnised the force of the Ll gu­rnents pui forward by the Uppo.itien when h~ deleted a large area of sub-artc·,ian countr·. from the operations of the Act. The line he has drawn exe1npt:! the main sub-artesiau areas, but some portions ren1ain, and thev are closolv "ettled. The Minister shoul;l have an o))en mind and a free lnnd on thi; matter. He is aw·:re of the inconvenioncCJ and expense that these settlers would be put to. lf the Minister will reconsider the matter he will see that the member for Aubigny is quite right. It would be worth while for him to reconsider this matter, and accept the amendment. There is one artesian bore at Dalby, but that is the only one for a long distance out in a country where sub­artesian water is the main supply.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PuBLIC LA:\DS: The present Act makes it compulsory for a driller to be licensed in any artesian area.

Mr. Moo RE: For artesian boring, yes.

Mr. DEACON: It is of no use in districts where all the bores are shallow. Take a dosely-settled district of that size and v.:;u will find that many of the drillers ha vc small plants capable of drilling only to a shallow depth. It is not possible for them to go to any depth or to reach the artesian wat<:r. It takes .a much more powerful plant to smk an artestan bore. It is not necessarv to_ register small drilling plants, and the drrllmg plants in this area are small ones, and therefore they need not be registered. The Government will n0t benefit bv rejecting the amendment. On the other hand thE'" would be well advised to consider the ~atte'r very carefully.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) [5.19 p.m.]: Apparently the Minister does not appreciate · the practical side of the question, otherwise he would accept the amendment. There are many wells in the sub-artesian belt quite apart from what are known as sub-artesian bores, but if the amendment is not acoepted nobody will be able to put down a sub­artesian bore or well or to employ anybody to enlarge, alter, or deepen it unless hP is a licensed driller. I am sure that the Minister does not want to make it illegal for many practical men to put down a well or repair a well or sub-artesian bore unless he is a licensed driller. They are very diffi­cult to get. I have frequently had to emploJ these good practical men who knew some­thing about repairing a temporary stoppage, but they were not licensed drillers and did not have a boring plant. 'I'hey were, never­theless, experienced in that class of work. The amendment gives the Minister power to determine what shall be done, and it cer­tainly improves the Bill. We cannot move to omit the word "sub-artesian" because that would be interfering with the principle of the Bill adopted on the second l'eading stage. We are trying to make the hest of an awkward situation by providing that a person who deoires to put down a new sub­artesian bore or well, or to enlarge, deepen, or alter an existing well, may employ a person other than a licensed driller.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It was in the 1926-31 Act.

Mr. MAHER: If that is the case and it is still in existence, many people are breaking the law to-day. The law should be clarified by the acc~?ptance of the amendment. 'fhat is all that we can do at this stage.

Question-" That the words proposed to be omitted from clause 12 (Mr. jlfoore's amend­ment) stand part of the cl:tuse "-put; and the Committee divided:-

Mr. Brassington Brown Bruce Bulcock

AYES1

Cl ark Collins Conroy Cooper Copley, P. K. Donnelly Duggan Dunstan Foley Gair Gledson Hanlon Ha yes Healy Hilt on Hislop

37.

Mr. Hynes Keogh King Larcombe M ann M cLean Mull an O'Keefe Pease Power Smith Walsh Waters Wellington Williams, H.

1'ellers: Jesson Riordan

NOES, 9,

Mr. Clayton Daniel Deacon Edwards Maher Moo re

Mr. Plunkett

Tellers: Bell Brand

PAIRS. AYES.

Mr. Taylor Dash Copley, W. J. Williams, T. L. Stop ford

NOES,

Mr. Muller Walker Nimmo Maxwe]] Russell

Resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 12, as read, agreed to.

Clauses 13 to 17, both inclusive, agreed to

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported the Bill with an

amendment Third reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for tc•-morrow.

WOOL DRAFT ALLOWANCE ABOLI­TION BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Bareoo) [5.31 p.m.]: I move-

" That the Bill be now read a second time.''

As I pointed out during the initiation of this Bill the question has been raised so strongly during recent years that at a recent meeting- of the Australian Agricultural Ccuncil it was decided that each State in the Commonwealth should i"troduce, during the present session of Parliament, a Bill of this nature, and a similar Bill will be introduced in the New Zealand Parliament. Every State in the Commonwealth, with the exception of New South Wales, has agreed that it is desirable, and has undertaken to introduce this legis­lation, which aims at the aboliticn of the

Hon. F'. W. Bulcock.]

684 Wool Draft, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Question.

wool draft allowance. The decision of the Australian Agricultural Council was fortified by the decision of the Economic Committee that investigated wool, and recommended in 1931 that the we>ol draft allowance that had become a common practice in Australia should be abolished.

It is difficult to say just how this practice c,riginated, or why it has grown, and why it is apparently tc>-day incorporated in wool transactions. So far as can be ascer­tained, the custom grew up in consequence of the uncertainty of the scales used during very eJtrly periods. The record we have dates back to about the fourteenth century, round about which period steelyards were used and these would nc>t register until 1 lb. had hcen added to them. The conse­quences were that this custom applied to other commodities as well in the earlier days, and became incorporated in ordinary practice. If that was the fact that. justified it in thoee dttys-and it is generally admitted it was--it cannot be justified_ on those facts tc>-day, because of the intricate provision we have for the protection of people who sell by weight, the annual inspec­tion of scales, and the fact that scales to-day arc absolutely accurate_ There can be no argument that scales do not actively register nc>w, and therefore it is not necessary to make an allowance of 1 lb.

It is obvious that by maki·ng this draft allowance of 1 ib. in every cwt. of wool ,·cry considerable quantities of wool have been given away. Taking our figures for last year, it is obvie>us that more than 60,000 lb. of wool changed hands for which no remuneration was exchanged. If we multi­ply that throughout Australia and take last year's wool values it is obvious that the sum involved is a colossal c>ne.

It is not practicable, particularly in view of the decision in the J ames case, for any one State to inaugurate a reform of this nature. It is true t.hat certain wool-buying organisations and wool brokers are averse to the change that is contemplated. It is equally true that the wool producers have been agitating for a great number of years for this reform, and still fail to recognise the justice of the wool brokers' claim. They say it is not founded on justice, but on a desire to acquire a pound of wool a cwt. for which they do not pay. In spite of the argument put forward by the Wool Brokers' Association, and the argument of other inter­ested people, with which the wool producers have entirely familiarised themselves, they are prepared to take whatever consequences may ensue from the passage of this Bill. If primary producers were asked to give away 1 lb. of their commodity in every cwt. of that commodity sold they would be very alarmed. If the sugar producer was asked to throw away 1 lb_ of sugar per cwt. or the butter men were asked to give away 1 lb_ of butter per cwt. they would refuse.

Mr. PLUNKE'rT: They do give a few ounces_

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : The policy in respect of volume of transaction and poundage is not the same, but if he was asked to do this thing in the way the wool producer is asked to do it he would react very violently and would protest vigorously against the suggestion. So we have in our major agri· cultural industry a practice that would not be countenanced in any other agricultural

[Hon. F. W. Bulcock.

industry, or at all. It is a practice that is not justified to-day by reason of the fact that the reasons why it was incorporated in wool sales have entirely disappeared. The brokers say, of course, that they will have to readjust their purchasing values. That may be the lesser of two evils. At least the grower will know what he is getting per pound, and will not feel that he is being exploited to the extent of nearly 1 per cent. of his total output. It is a very serious thing that under present arrangements a man should be required to surrender all rights and title to and all remuneration for about 1 per cent. of the total of his wool production for each year.

Owing to constitutional difficulties and thr" evident fact that it could not be operated only by one State, the Bill will not corne into operation until all the States of the Commonwealth have passed the neccss:try legislation. The Australian Agricultural Council will act as a clearing house, anrl through that council a date will be arranged on which the proclamations of the various States will be made, and on that the Bill will become law.

Mr. MA HER (1V est .li oreton) : I move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed. Resumption of debate made an Order of

the Day for to-morrow. The House adjourned at 5.40 p.m.