let's talk bitcoin, episode 112, "metacoin microcosm"

8/12/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 112, "Metacoin Microcosm"

1/23

Transcription of Episode 102 Metacoin Microcosm

Participants:

Adam B. Levine (ABL) Host

Andreas Antonopoulos (AA) Co-Host

Stephanie Murph (SM) Co-Host

Steven Levine (SL) C!" o# Let$s %al& Bitcoin' #ounder o# BitcoinPac&ain.com

(ad)

aniel Larimer (L) !ounder * C+" o# Bitshares (appears in intervie, ecerpt

onl)

Adam B. Levine: %oda is Ma /th01/ and this is episode 11. %his proram is

intended #or in#ormational and educational purposes onl. Crptocurrenc is a

ne, 2eld o# stud' consult our local #uturist' la,er and investment advisor

3e#ore ma&in an decisions ,hat-so-ever #or oursel#. 4isit the ne,

letstal&3itcoin.com #or dail updates.

5elcome to Let$s %al& Bitcoin' a t,ice ,ee&l sho, a3out the ideas' people and

pro6ects 3uildin the diital econom and the #uture o# mone. M name is Adam

B. Levine' 7$m the editor-in-chie# o# Let$s %al& Bitcoin and the L%B net,or&. Here

on Let$s %al& Bitcoin ,e$ve spo&en a lot a3out .0-protocols such as Mastercoin'

89%' CounterPart' Bitshares' Protoshares' tree-chains' side-chains and o# course

+thereum. +thereum still has not done their #undraiser at the time o# recordin

this' 3ut the have had several releases and there is real stu to ,or& on riht

no,. 7 thin& it$s ,orth,hile' even thouh ,e don$t have an uests on to tal&

a3out this' msel# and the other t,o hosts on Let$s %al& Bitcoin o# course

Stephanie Murph and Andreas Antonopoulos here ,ith me aain toda.

Stephanie Murph: Hello

Andreas Antonopoulos: He

ABL: 7$m oin to et an update o# ,here ever3od is' at least as #ar as 7 can

tell. M disclaimer' this is 6ust enerall true. 7 invest in crptocurrenc' so i# ou

hear me tal&in a3out somethin' ou should 3asicall assume 7 have invested in

it. ;nless people have dierent disclaimers to the other direction.

AA: 7 invest in por& 3ellies' so i# ou hear me tal&in a3out 3acon. 7 have multiple

interests.

SM: 7 can$t reall come up ,ith anthin 3etter than that' 3ut 7 li&e 3acon and

crptocurrenc

(Everybody laughs)


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ABL: %hat$s a special interest i# 7$ve ever heard one. "ne o# the earliest .0-

protocol pro6ect that ,e touched on ,as Mastercoin. 7n Auust 7 did an intervie,

,ith ou

can also do 3ettin and contract #or dierence etc ,ith it.

Mastercoin has one throuh a lon development ccle and there ,as a lot o#

?uestion a3out ho, ,ell the ,ere doin 3ecause the ,ere ta&in (in the

Bitcoin space) a lon time to do it. %he have no, had their 2rst release' a

couple o# ,ee&s ao a Compan called MaidSa#e that Stephanie intervie,ed the

C+" o#.

SM: >eah' avid 7rvine.

ABL: avid 7rvine success#ull raised' some,here 3et,een @ million ;S

dependin on ,hat echane rate ou$re usin' in Mastercoin and Bitcoin in

a3out hours. 7n ,hat ,as supposed to 3e a #our ,ee& lon #undraiser. %he

MaidSa#e pro6ect is a distri3uted computin net,or&' it$s 3asicall li&e Bitcoin

ecept that instead o# do,nloadin the Bloc&chain' ou$re ivin a,a part o#

the computational po,er and storae capacit on our computer or i# ou don$t

,ant to do that ou have some to&ens and ou can 3u computational po,er

and storae po,er ,ith the to&ens instead o# usin our o,n.

%he ,ere a3le to success#ull raise those #unds' 3ut it happened in such a

chaotic and #ast ,a that there ,as a lot o# 3ac&lash aainst it. A lot o# people

,ere loo&in at the amount o# donations and ,ere sain %his is 6ust a tric& to

increase the value o# MastercoinD' and #rom the outside it did loo& a lot li&e that.

Ho,ever the thin that struc& me throuhout this entire process ,ith Mastercoin

and the MaidSa#e thin is that the thouht the ,ere oin to #ail. %he thouht

that in the course o# #our ,ee&s that the ,eren$t oin to sell out E raise enouh

mone. So the put thins in place so that people ,ould 3e incentiviFed or more

li&el to 3u sooner rather than later and it turns out the demand completel

over,helmed the suppl.

7t$s also a #unn thin 3ecause ,hen ou$re tal&in a3out crpto-raises' crpto-

sales or cro,d-sales or ,hatever ou ,ant to call them. Part o# it is a3out raisin

the mone 3ut the other part o# it is a3out trin to et it out to as man people

in the communit as possi3le' 3ecause those people ,ill then have an interest in

pain attention to our pro6ect. 5hereas i# the didn$t have some o# our to&en

the miht not 3e interested. 7t$s created a ,eird sort o# tension ,ith the

MaidSa#e pro6ect and a lot o# people are havin 3ad #eelins a3out it.

"verall the pro6ect ,as ver success#ul and 7 thin& it sets an interestin

precedent movin #or,ard' that ma3e these thins ,ill either succeed or #ail so

#ast that there is no middle round. %hat 3ecause there is all o# this pent-up

demand #or implementation o# ood ideas so those ideas ,ill 3e #unded ?uic&l.

"n the other-side ou$ll have other ideas #or pro6ects that isn$t ,hat the

demoraphic ,ants and the ma not et an #undin at all.

Mastercoin has some interestin challenes' the also seem to 3e oin throuhan internal pure' 7 &no, the$re lettin a lot o# people o or at least intendin


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to. Mastercoin ,as the 2rst .0protocol out there' the had a success#ul cro,d-

sale' the manaed to deliver the to&ens and 7 thin& it ,as a positive launch that

had a lot o# hic-cups in it and hope#ull the learnt a lot o# lessons #rom those

hic-cups.

Mastercoin does have some pro3lems' the raised a lot o# mone at the3einnin and so 3ecause the raised mone the have had the pro3lem o#

havin to spend it ,ell and dependin on ,ho ou as& that has one to varin

derees o# ood or 3ad. %he have a role-3ased 3ount sstem' ,hich is reall

interestin and the have done 3ounties in a ,a that the #elt ,asn$t

particularl success#ul 3ut the$ve spent a lot o# mone.

Aain 7 thin& there is this push and pull 3et,een pro6ects that #und and pro6ects

that don$t' pro6ects that are #unded have more resources' more a3ilit to eecute

their pro6ect. At the same time the have the responsi3ilit o# spendin the

mone appropriatel and sometimes ou don$t' ,hether intentional or not. 7

thin& that$s a pro3lem that Mastercoin still has to deal ,ith' it loo&s li&e the$retrin to the$re sha&in up their team internall and loo&in at dierent

incentive structures.

%he have a couple o# dierent ,allet tools out no, that ma&e it so ou can send

Mastercoin #airl easil. 7 have t,o ,e3 ,allets and a des&top ,allet and 7 have

not 3een impressed ,ith an o# them. "# the various tools that are actuall out'

7$ve #ound the tools that are on the Mastercoin site more diGcult to use and the

are enerall less intuitive than the other availa3le options. Aain this is ver

earl in the process and 7$m still ,aitin to see ,hat tools loo& li&e later on.

So ,hat do ou us thin& a3out Mastercoin An thouhts on that

SM: >eah' 7 have to sa 7 aree ,ith ou a3out the ease-o#-use #or the ,allets andit$s diGcult to 2ure out #or me and 7$m not li&e super-noo3.

ABL: >eah the multi-,allet thin' it$s all a3out the metaphors riht People aretrin dierent thins and seein ,hat$s oin on and ho, does it ma&e sense tothese dierent tpes o# to&ens. =iht no, there are 6ust a #e, tpes o# to&ens3ut eventuall there are oin to 3e thousands or even hundreds o# thousands o#to&ens and the solutions need to scale.

AA: %here is a comparison o# Crptocurrencies and the 7nternet in the 1II0$s and7 thin& i# ou loo& at it that ,a. Metacoins and protocol laers a3ove Bitcoin thatare implemented 3 thins li&e Mastercoin' Counterpart' +thereum etc arereall li&e the 5orld 5ide 5e3 it$s a completel ne, laer on top o# the sstem.7# ou remem3er the 5e3 came out at a time ,hen even the 3asic #unction o# e-mail ,as still ne, to people and people ,eren$t sure ,hat to ma&e o# it. %he ver2rst 3ro,sers ,ere so horri3le and clun& 3ut it ,as onl a limpse o# thepossi3ilities #or those ,ho had the vision to see it.

5hen 7 2rst opened 8CSA Mosaic' it ,as nothin li&e the eperience o# a ear or

t,o later. 7t reall too& until 8etscape .0 to reall see the po,er o# the 5e3 on

the 7nternet' so i# Bitcoin is still in the earl I0$s o# the 7nternet' 7 ,ould sa

Metacoins are at the 8CSA Mosaic level 3ut 6ust 3ecause it$s clun& it doesn$t

mean ou can$t see throuh that i# ou have the vision. 7# ou have the vision


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ou can see the immense possi3ilities that ena3led #rom laerin on top o# the

Bloc&chain securit model to implement completel ne, levels o# #eatures.

%o me 7 thin&' even more so' +thereum ,ith the idea o# a eneraliFed

Bloc&chain plat#orm ,ith %urin complete lanuae that can ena3le a mriad o#

applications to 3e custom ,ritten #or that lanuae. 7 thin& that is a tremendous

innovation and 7$m not sain that +thereum ,ill 3e it' 3ut ,hat +thereum does

,ill happen one ,a or another perhaps 3 +thereum' perhaps 3 a clone o#

+thereum or perhaps 3 somethin that comes even later. But aain it ives ou

a limpse o# 6ust ,hat is possi3le and it proves conclusivel the underlin idea

that Bitcoin is not 6ust a currenc' it$s not 6ust mone #or the 7nternet.

%he people ,ho have the vision to loo& 3eond the currenc as a speculative

instrument' to see this is as a plat#orm and then (unintelligible 0:09:41.3) allo# the applications that can 3e 3uilt usin that plat#orm and inspire a eneration

o# developers' o# prorammers' desiners' entrepreneurs ,ho ,ill eventuall not

6ust innovate as the alread are. But the can ,rap these thins into easier to

use inter#aces and pac&aes so ever3od can use them and ,e can 3rin thatpo,er to everone.

ABL: A3solutel' 7 thin& that ou$re totall riht there. %his is the ver earl start

o# all o# these thins and the reason ,h the tools are 6ust not usea3le in eneral

terms is 3ecause ,e haven$t identi2ed et' ,hat ,ill ma&e them more usea3le.

8o, ,e$re startin to identi# them. 8o3od &ne, that a 10-minute lon 3loc&

time ,as oin to 3e a pro3lem #or these Metacoins until in practice ,e sa, that

,hen ou are actuall ,aitin there #or 10-minutes' sometimes it actuall ta&es

/0-minutes #or a 3loc& to tic& in the Bitcoin net,or& and there is nothin ou can

do a3out it' it$s 6ust the ,a the sstem ,or&s. Because o# that' suddenl there is

a reason to use a #aster 3loc&chain ,hereas 3e#ore there ,asn$t' 3ut ,e don$t&no, that until the 2rst applications are 3uilt on top.

>ou 3rouht up +thereum' 7 ,as oin to o a3out these in the order the have

3een launched. But let$s 6ust riht to +thereum' +thereum is such a #ascinatin

pro6ect to me. %he have done a reat 6o3 o# 3asicall loo&in around the

communit not 6ust the Bitcoin communit also the crptoraph communit'

2nancial services communit' pic&in out reall smart people and ettin them

ecited a3out +thereum and ettin them to start ,or&in on it 3e#ore the$re

even ettin paid. !rom that stand-point +thereum has 3een success#ul in a ,a

that 7 have never see a crptocurrenc 3e success#ul. 7$m super curious ,hat ou

us thin& a3out it.

SM: 5ell' the other ,a to sa its success#ul is to sa that it$s had a lot o# hpe. 7

thin& that ou could de2nitel sa that a3out +thereum.

ABL: Ho, do ou de2ne hpe thouh 7 ,ould consider it a hpe i# there ,asn$t a

product' 3ut there actuall is a product that the$re releasin ne, versions o#

and it$s in alpha. %here are pro6ects that launched three months 3e#ore that still

haven$t reached that point. %hat$s the thin' there is hpe' 3ut it seems li&e there

is some (unintellii3le 0:11:.1) there too.

SM: "&' so there$s an alpha client 7$m not trin to ra on +thereum' 7 ,ish

them all the success in the ,orld and 7$m curious to see ho, it shapes out. So

the have an alpha client 3ut the$re at con#erences sain that the ,ant to re-enineer societ and completel chane the ,orld


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ABL: 5ell isn$t that ,hat Andreas and 7 ,ere 6ust tal&in a3out

SM: >eah

ABL: 7 mean' ,e didn$t use those ,ords 3utJ

AA: >ou have to' aain' separate the desin pattern or the idea #rom the currentimplementation o# that idea. %he desin pattern on a %urin complete plat#orm

3ased on the Bloc&chain #or neotiatin contracts is 3rilliant' enius on a level

almost e?uivalent as Satoshi$s in terms o# ta&in eistin technoloies and

pushin them to a ,hole other level. 7 thin& (Didnt !ear name 0:12:"4.4) is

one o# the most 3rilliant people ever #or 3uildin it' desinin it and comin up

,ith the idea.

%he instance o# +thereum that has 3een implemented no,' is ver earl stae

code' 6ust li&e 8CSA Mosaic. %he oranisation around +thereum is a ,hole other

issue all toether' 3ut it doesn$t matter 3ecause the idea o# a %urin complete

Bloc&chain plat#orm survives +thereum the instance' +thereum the oranisation

and even +thereum the 3rand. 7t can 3e re-implemented 3 someone else'someone could #for$%& it and 3uild another %urin complete Bloc&chain plat#ormand 7 epect ,e$re oin to see that too' 6ust li&e ,e sa, alt-coins ,e$re oin to

see alt-contracts.

SM: >eah' 7$ve alread heard people tal&in a3out that ,ho have dierent

criticisms o# +thereum and so #orth. But Andreas' since ou seem to have cope

the vision' 7$ve had this eplained to me a couple o# times 3ut sho, me the

pro3lems that +thereum solves and paint a picture to me o# ho, it solves them.

AA: A3solutel' the #undamental pro3lem that +thereum solves is this. 7# ou

have a ne, application that ou ,ant to create that could 3ene2t #rom a

decentraliFed Bloc&chain consensus mechanism' toda ou have to 3uild 3oth

the application and the consensus Bloc&chain net,or& to support it. %he pro3lem

,ith that is to in order to et enouh hashin po,er or enouh consensus

securit 3ehind that ne, Bloc&chain ou have to either recruit people to the

idea' application or philosoph o# ,hat ou$re trin to 3uild or ou have to ride

on top o# somethin that alread eists and then ta&e all the limitations that that

3rins ,ith it.

%he t,o choices 3e#ore +thereum ,ere either 3uild an alt-chain' in ,hich case

the alt-chain is dedicated to our ne, application' ettin suGcient securit in

our consensus mechanism re?uires recruitin enouh people to our application

,hich is ver diGcult to do. "r ridin on top o# somethin li&e Bitcoin' 3ut thenacceptin all o# the limitations that it has #or eneral-purpose applications.

+thereum solves one pro3lem and that is that ou no loner have to ma&e that

choice. >ou et to have a eneral-purpose Bloc&chain consensus mechanism that

ou can 3uild dierent applications on top o# ,ith ver #e, limitation and anone

that participates in that contri3utes to the shared consensus po,er E consensus

securit mechanism o# everone minin that Bloc&chain ,ithout havin to recruit

people to a speci2c application.

!or eample' let$s sa ou decide ou ,ant to create a ne, alt-coin that does

distri3ution o# 3asic income ever round' so ou$re implementin somethin li&e

the S,iss 3asic income uarantee sstem #rom a political' economic andmonetar philosoph ,ithin ou currenc. Previousl ou could either 3uild that


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on top o# Bitcoin ,ith all o# the limitations that incurs ,hich 3 de2nition has to

3e a conservative and slo, movin plat#orm. "r ou 3uild an alt-chain 3ut ou

can onl persuade people to mine i# the li&e the S,iss 3asic income

redistri3ution model' so ou have to sell them into our politics in order to et

them to secure our net,or&.

+thereum solves this 3 sain that ou can 3uild that on top o# +thereum and

people ,ill mine' not 3ecause the aree ,ith the politics o# our currenc 3ut

3ecause the ,ant to mine Bloc&chain consensus plat#orms that can support an

application. So it solves that 3asic conundrum and that opens the door #or ever

sinle point o# vie, and epression o# that point o# vie, to et out o# the ate

,ith a consensus level o# securit ,hich is unimpeacha3le and unassaila3le.

SM: +verthin ou$re sain' 7 et it' it sounds ood. 7 uess the thin that

#rea&s me out is the ,a 7 o#ten hear it tal&ed a3out' ,hich is that this is oin to

chane everthin. 5e$re no, oin to have a completel transparent societ

,here everthin is on the Bloc&chain and everthin is manaed throuh

+thereum.

AA: 5ell that$s reat' set a vision and then i# ou #ail to meet it and our vision is

enormous then ou still achieve a hell o# a lot. >ou don$t have to 3u the ,hole

vision to see that this oers a sini2cant' ne, plat#orm #or 3uildin consensus

applications ,hether ou 3elieve that consensus applications are the #uture o#

all applications or that the a3ilit to 3uild consensus applications easil

#undamentall chanes societ' doesn$t chane the #act that consensus

applications are use#ul. %he arument ou$re ma&in Stephanie' is an arument

that 7 thin& a lot o# people ma&e ,hen the 2rst hear o# Bitcoin and the hear us

tal&in a3out #undamentall chanin 2nancial services and sometimes ou 6ust

have to sell them on the Ma&es shoppin easierD.SM: 5ell 7 thin& ,e have a riht to 3e sceptical a3out it' it$s o& to as& ?uestions. 7

don$t need it dum3ed do,n #or me to accept it' it$s 6ust that ,hen 7 hear

some3od tal&in (cut o 3 Andreas)

AA: %hat$s not ,hat 7$m sain' 7$m simpl sain that ou don$t have to accept

the #ull' etreme vision ,hich is utopian 3 de2nition' it$s ver ideoloical and

utopian in order to see the 3asic utilit.

SM: >eah

ABL: %here communit ,hich is ,or&in on this stu is 3i enouh that the

have inside 6o&es unto themselves' it$s &ind o# clu33' the have a lot o# people,ho are involved in this pro6ect. "ne thin 7 noticed #rom +thereum people is that

the o#ten have this smile that$s li&e 7 &no, ,hat$s up and ou don$tD' have ou

noticed this us

SM: Sure

AA: Bitcoin' +thereum or 3oth

ABL: 7n +thereum' sorr i# 7 said Bitcoin.

AA: 5ell 7 ,ould sa all o# that applies to Bitcoin as #ar as the rest o# the ,orld is

concerned.


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ABL: >es it a3solutel applies to Bitcoin too 3ut the point is that ,ith Bitcoin it

doesn$t appl to people ,ho understand Bitcoin. 5ith +thereum it applies to

people ,ho understand Bitcoin 3ut people ,ho don$t necessaril understand

+thereum at the particular level that the$re tal&in at.

SM: >eah' ,ell Adam 7 thin& it$s a ood thin ou 3rin that up and aain 7 don$t

thin& ,e$re trin to criticiFe it$s 6ust this is the perspective' this is ,hat

some3od sees. 7s that a ood ,a to et people com#orta3le ,ith this

revolutionar technolo Ma3e it$s not.

ABL: 7 don$t thin& that$s the point as m point is that the haven$t even started

#undraisin et. So riht no, their taret mar&et' the people the$re trin to

&eep ecited' impressed and involved are ,or&in #or #ree. At the point ,hen

the come out ,ith their cro,d-sale that ,ill allo, them to vest other people in

the communit' then 7 suspect ,e$ll see the mar&etin shi#t to somethin that$s

more oriented #or its people. =iht no, 7 reall #eel li&e it$s 6ust clu33' that$s not

intended as an insult' it 6ust #eels li&e these people are all #riends' the all &no,

,hat$s up and the$re ,or&in on somethin that the thin& is cool and at thepoint that it$s read #or the rest o# us' then ,e$ll all &no, ho, cool it is too. 7

don$t &no, ,hether that$s true or not' 3ut that$s the vi3e 7 et.

7 do thin& that the application is important too' the idea' as Andreas said ou can

separate out the mar&etin #rom the innovation and 7$m curious do ou have an

concerns a3out the innovation "r is this entirel on the mar&etin side

SM: Most o# m concerns are a3out the mar&etin and ho, the ,a it$s

presented' 3ut o# course it relates to the technolo and the innovation 3ecause

it$s a3out' ,hat does this thin actuall do. And that remains to 3e seen' ,e

don$t &no, ,hat it$s oin to do until it ets to more advanced versions. So 7$m

&eepin a health attitude o# scepticism a3out msel#.

(Intermission - advertisements)

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niche to appl at letstal&3itcoin.com


8/23


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people a 3unch o# mone' the can succeed or #ail and still et paid either ,a

and that$s not reall the ,a that thins happen here.

SM: >eah' that$s eactl it. +speciall #or somethin that$s oin to 3e such a

5orld chanin' +arth shatterin technolo' it is important to have an element

o# #airness at the 3einnin and to not have special rules #or dierent people.

AA: 7$m not that concerned 3ecause 7 ,ould sa that i# it 3ecomes a 3i concern

in practice' it$s not at all diGcult to #or& +thereum and ma&e a completel

separate cop' call it !reethereum and !reethereum has no pre-minin' is 6ust

li&e +thereum open source. %here is no 3arriers #or entr' no 3arriers to eit' no

3arriers to #or&.

SM: But the 3arriers et people to use it riht %o maintain a Bloc&chain.

AA: =iht' as 7 ,as sain i# the pre-mine is a pro3lem and people ,ould rather

use one that isn$t pre-mined then ,e can #or& it. 7# people accept that throuh a

mar&et choice and the thin& that it$s a valid ,a to #und the enterprise and to

#und the earl development then the$ll accept it. %he matter is' ho, much is a#air price to pa #or the earl development o# that plat#orm and i# that price is set

too hih' people ,ill either inore it' or the$ll #or& it and move else,here.

ABL: People have Nat out said and 4itali& has even 3een tal&in to them a3out it

and seemed to 3e helpin them ,ith the loistics' o# ho, to #or& +thereum. 7

don$t recall ,hat the attempt ,as called' it miht have 6ust 3een a dierent

spellin o# the same tpe o# pronunciation' the idea ,as that rather than doin a

cro,d-sale in order to deal ,ith the pre-mine. %he ,ould ta&e that pre-mine and

distri3ute it to the entire 3ase or Bitcoin holders' 3ased on their current holdins

o# Bitcoin. 7t empo,ers dierent roups o# people in dierent ,as' 3ut it ,ould

3e a,a to vest the entire Bitcoin sta&eholder populations and ma&e thesta&eholders o# a dierent pro6ect.

AA: !rom m perspective' 7 ,ould aree ,ith Stephanie in that 7 ,ould li&e to see

somethin that is #air. "ne o# the ,as to ma&e it #air is simple' start ,ith no pre-

minin and turn it on. "nce ou have a proo#-o#-concept that ,or&s' once it ets

to 3eta level and ou can invite other people to mine. %urn it on and let the

people ,ho 3elieve in the idea mine it and presuma3l the people ,ho are

invested in the pro6ect 3ecause the 3uilt it' ,ill 3e amon those people and ,ill

have plent o# time to prepare to mine it on an e?ual level as everone else.

%he ,ould et all o# the earl adopter advantae o# that' 6ust not as much as

the ,ould ,ith a pre-mine.

7 ,ould li&e to see that 3ut it$s not m choice' 7 can then choose ,hether 7 ,ant

to use it or not 3ased on ,hat choices the ma&e.

ABL: 7 uess that$s a reall ood Se,a to the net topic ,e should tal& a3out

3esides +thereum ,hich did eactl that. +ssentiall the ,ere puttin out a

product called BitShares' 3ut 3e#ore that' in order to #undraise #or it the had

created another tpe o# to&en call ProtoShares. Lon-time listeners o# Let$s %al&

Bitcoin ,ill 3e #amiliar ,ith this.

(Excerpt from a previous interview with Daniel Larimer starts here)


10/23

So ,hat is a ProtoShare 5e have 3een tal&in a3out BitShares to this point and

,e have tal&ed a3out the Kehotee Bloc&chain. 7$m not #amiliar ,ith ,hat

ProtoShares are.

aniel Larimer: ProtoShare is our ,a o# doin an 7P" #or all o# the dierent ACs

(istri3uted Autonomous Corporations )that ,e$re oin to create here at

7nvictus' it$s 3ased on Bitcoin. 7t uses a ne, CP; #riendl proo#-o#-,or&' #or ever

ProtoShare ou ac?uire ,e ,ill honour that man shares in the ne, #uture ACs.

So ,hen BitShare does come out ou ,ill et 1 Bitshare per ProtoShare' ,hen

our other ACs come out' ,hether its domain-shares or other variants ou can

read a3out on our ,e3site' the ,ill also honour our position in protoshares.

ProtoShares are 6ust a ,a o# ettin a sta&e in everthin that ,e$re doin here

at 7nvictus.

ABL: +ssentiall ,hat the said' is eactl ,hat ou$re suestin. 5hich is that'

,e 3elieve in this concept so stronl' that ,e$re oin to launch this CP;-

minea3le to&en and that ,e$re oin to compete ,ith everone else and then

oer services that people ,ill pa us ,ith ProtoShares.

But ,hat happened ,as that the didn$t &no, ,here to set the diGcult' so the

set the diGcult ,a to lo,.

L: So much hash po,er is 3ein thro,n at the net,or& that despite a hard

#or&ed increase diGcult' ,e have still mined 1E o# the ProtoShare suppl in the

2rst ,ee& and a hal# as 3loc&s that ,ere supposed to ta&e -minutes to solve

,ere 3ein #ound ever 0-seconds.

ABL: So ,hat the thouht ,as oin to ta&e 1-ear o# the total -ear role out'

ended up ta&in a month and a hal#.

ABL: (in excerpt) So ,as this a ood thin' or a 3ad thin

L: 7t$s an amaFinl ood result' our plans ,ith Bitshares and other "Cs ,ould

3e no ,here ,ithout a lare communit 3ehind them and since ,e have

launched ProtoShares a lare communit has sprun out o# no,here. People

have created Bloc& eplorers' chrome plu-ins' +SC="5 services' minin pools

and enhanced miners. +ver one o# these people no has invested interested in

the success o# BitShares and 7nvictus 7nnovations.

ABL: 7nvictus didn$t et an o# the #unds' the didn$t et their miners up in time.

%he had control o# the launch and doin other stu that the didn$t do it. %he

thouht the ,ould have a ,ee& since it ,as oin to 3e such a lon process.L: "n the do,n-side ,e ,ere una3le to mine as man ProtoShares as ,e ,ould

have li&ed 3ecause most o# our o,n miners didn$t sho, up in time so ,e had to

mine in the cloud li&e everone else. Some people have arued that the shares

,ere mined too ?uic&l' 3ut #rom our perspective it doesn$t reall matter ho,

?uic&l the ,ere mined. 7t ,as a lotter ive a,a sstem an,a.

AA: %hat doesn$t dis?uali# the practice or the process that 6ust sho,s ho, ou

don$t implement it' et our "Cs in a ro,' ma&e sure the diGcult is set

correctl or set it so the diGcult ad6usts rapidl enouh to compensate and

create a ood minin alorithm that compensates #or those thins.

ABL: M point is that the reall did thin& that the had those thins.


11/23

AA: 5ell eah' 3ut the didn$t.

ABL: Clearl the didn$t' 3ut ,hen ou$re trin somethin ne, li&e this' ho, do

ou test it Ho, do ou do a MaidSa#e test ,ithout doin a MaidSa#e.

AA: 5ith a proo#-o#-concept' ,hich riht no,' +thereum has done #our o# them

and 7 thin& that$s a much 3etter plan.

ABL: %hat$s true.

AA: %he can also do repeated rounds o# test minin that allo, people to

participate in various ,as so ou can aue the interest o# the communit.

SM: "ne thin that 7$m curious a3out and 7 don$t mean to &eep oin 3ac& to

+thereum' 3ut this is 6ust a eneral discussion a3out' ho, do ou determine

transactions #ees' minin alorithms' ,hat$s the 3est ,a o# distri3utin the

coins etc. 7s it simpl a process o# trial and error' it seems as thouh a lot o#

people are trin to ans,er those ?uestions ,hat is the 3est ,a o# minin'

,hat is the 3est ,a o# settin transaction #ees and ,hat is the 3est ,a o#distri3utin coins. 5e$ve seen a lot o# attempts to ma&e sure coins and plat#orms

are onl minea3le on CP;s and all o# them have prett much #ailed so #ar at that.

AA: >eah' the mar&et is testin this innovation area prett hard. %here is a lot o#

competition and a lot o# variation and 7 thin& it$s reall #antastic 3ecause

monetar alorithmic and plannin the alorithm o# monetar suppl' the

alorithm o# initial pu3lic oerins and the alorithm o# 2nancialiFin an open

source pro6ect. %hat is an area o# active innovation and active research' there is

ver ood mar&et testin oin on and ,e$re learnin man ,as ,ith ,hich not

to do it and man ,as that #ail ,hich is reat 3ecause ,e$re no, narro,in the

rane o# solutions into the +dison mth 7$ve #ound I000 ,as not to ma&e a

liht3ul3D.

SM: 5ell Satoshi ,as an economist riht Satoshi ot a lot o# thins riht' #rom

an economic perspective in terms o# incentives and so #orth 3ut there are a lot o#

people trin to chane and ad6ust ,ith a lot o# these parameters and

sometimes 7 ,onder ,hether that$s even necessar. o ,e need a coin that$s

onl minea3le on CP;s "r is it o& to have separation and division o# la3our

AA: %hat$s an ans,er that$s oin to 3e ans,ered 3 the mar&et' the ?uestion is

,orth posin 3ecause the mar&et-3ased ans,er is the most accurate ans,er ou

can et.

ABL: 5hen ou$re spea&in in hpotheticals li&e Satoshi ,as ,hen he ,as tal&ina3out Bitcoin initiall (cut of by Andreas)

AA: %hat$s o3server 3ias thouh' the reason ,h ,e$re tal&in a3out Satoshi$s

invention havin all o# the monetar polic and incentives more or less riht is

3ecause ,e$re all usin it 2ve ears later. 7# he hadn$t had it riht someone ,ould

have 3uilt one.

ABL: 7 &no,' m point ,as is that it$s a3out directionalit rather than amplitude

riht 5hen ou loo& at predictions ou can predict directionalit and that$s

essentiall ,hat Satoshi did' he loo&ed at ,hat are the #undamental human

incentives and ho, ,ill humans respond ivin certain tpes o# stimuli 3ut he

ot a #e, thins ,ron. %hat$s ,h it$s ood that Satoshi created a sel#-ad6ustin

sstem' that$s the thin a3out it he made a lot o# sstems ,here he didn$t have


12/23

to &no, the ans,er. All he had to do ,as to &no, ,hat the riht ans,er ,as and

create a sstem that$s sel#-ad6usted to deliver that reardless o# ,hat$s oin on

in the real ,orld and 7 thin& it$s much the same here.

AA: 7# that hadn$t ,or&ed ,e ,ouldn$t 3e tal&in a3out it no,' as someone ,ould

have ta&en that idea and 3een li&e 5ell Satoshi ave us a ood idea #or proo#-o#-

,or& decentraliFed sstems 3ut he ot all o# the alorithms ,ron' here is one

that does it 3etterD then ,e ,ould 3e tal&in a3out that instead. So there is an

o3server 3ias here' ,e$re tal&in a3out this one as the one that ,or&ed' 3ecause

it ,or&ed.

ABL: %he point is that there are somethin$s that ou can predict ,ith a

reasona3le deree o# certaint 3ecause the$re 3ased on phsics and there are

somethin$s that ou can$t 3ecause the$re 3ased on humans. !or eample ou

couldn$t predict the AS7C rush' riht Because ou couldn$t predict minin ,ould

3ecome so popular as a means o# on-3oardin 3ecause ou couldn$t predict it

,ould 3e so impossi3le to et Bitcoins an other ,a.

AA: >eah' let$s leave those to sel#-ad6ustin dnamic alorithms so ou don$t

have to predict.

ABL: %hat$s the thin' ,ith a lot o# these ne, ideas ho, do ou do that 7# ou$re

trin to ta&e minin and ou vie, it as somethin that is ineGcient #or the

purpose that it$s providin that$s the arument the people ,ho are on the

proo#-o#-sta&e side versus the proo#-o#-,or& side ma&e. Ho, do ou do that

,ithout actuall launchin product 7 thin& that ou 6ust have to' ou 6ust have to

launch.

AA: =iht and learn the ans,er the hard ,a. %he mar&et ,ill re,ard those ,ho

2nd the riht ans,er and those that 2nd it the hard ,a ,hich is throuh trialand error.

ABL: >eah' 7 thin& that BitPa is a ood eample o# someone ,ho #ound the riht

,a throuh that mores ,here most o# the other roups ,ho ,ere in the space

didn$t reall do so ,ell' ,e don$t tal& a3out an o# them' ,e don$t &no, an o#

them.

SM: 5hat ou said a3out the mar&etin determinin the riht ans,er' Andreas' 7

aree ,ith. %he important thin is to 3e a3le to opt-out' to 3e a3le to 3asicall

vote ,ith our ener and use ,hichever plat#orm or coin ou aree ,ith and

ou li&e. As lon as people can do that and have the riht o# eit then it$s 2ne.

ABL: 7 thin& that +thereum is a reall interestin pro6ect 3ut it$s still too earl'

aain' the net 3i milestone as #ar as 7$m concerned is ,hen ,e et the 2nal set

o# rules a3out the cro,d-sale. At that point ,e$ll actuall have a clear idea o#

,hat the$re actuall doin' ,hat it$s oin to cost' ,hat the$re ta&in #or

themselves. %hen ,e can all ma&e the &ind o# 6udement #or ourselves ,hether

or not it$s a pro6ect ,e ,ant to support.

7 thin& the technolo is #ascinatin and 7 thin& the team the$ve put toether is

reat. But ou$re riht' ultimatel it$s oin to depend on ,hat it sas.

AA: 7n the meantime here$s the thin' this eploration so #ar has iven us proo#-

o#-concept #or !our' ,hich is a plat#orm that ou can run ,ith a minea3le testchain that ou can mine test ether on. More importantl serpent' ,hich is the


13/23

ne, iteration o# a pthon-es?ue lanuae that ou can use to ,rite contracts'

people can tr that toda 3 runnin the +thereum proo#-o#-concept #or !our or

the can tr it throuh a simulator li&e Mint Chal& mintchal&.com is the ;=L -

and tr out the contract lanuae and simulate it and see ,hat the can 3uild

,ith it. All o# that eperimentation is actuall deliverin some ver interestin

thins that 7 2nd intriuin and 7$m plain ,ith as o#ten as 7 can in order to learn,hat ,e can do ,ith such a plat#orm.

%he nice thin a3out all o# that is that ,hether +thereum the pro6ect' +thereum

the compan' +thereum the 3rand survives or not' the eperimentation and the

lessons ,e$ve learned throuh that eperimentation persist.

SM: Andreas 7 have a ?uestion #or m o,n curiosit' since ou$ve plaed ,ith the

+thereum proo#-o#-concept' ho, are transaction #ees handled in that 5hat is the

minin alorithm 7 remem3er 4itali& sain in April that the ,eren$t reall sure

,hat minin alorithm the ,ere oin to use and 7 also remem3er a 3lo post

#rom a couple o# months ao sain that perhaps transaction #ees aren$t 3est

determined 3 the mar&et and ,e ma have to et people to step in and decidethem. 7$m curious a3out ,hat those thins have 3een sha&en out in the current

#orm.

AA: %he haven$t' most o# the eperimentation riht no, is around the contract

lanuae ,hich is ,here 7 thin& is ,here the main innovation is 3ecause the

minin alorithm and the #ees in +thereum are a means to an end and the end is

a %urin complete scriptin lanuae. Most o# the proo#-o#-concept eort has

one into re2nin the %urin complete scriptin lanuae.

ABL: 7 &no, ,e$ve said that a couple o# times' let$s 6ust ?uic&l de2ne %urin

complete scriptin lanuaeD.

AA: A %urin complete scriptin lanuae is 3asicall a prorammin lanuae

,ith ,hich ou can ,rite contracts' ou can ,rite applications that use a

consensus Bloc&chain underneath and these applications are eecuted 3 the

+thereum net,or&. Serpent is the latest iteration o# that' #or eample ou can

,rite a currenc' an echane' a minin pool or a eneric contract li&e a

6ointEmulti sinature account. >ou can ,rite those as contracts instead o# havin

to have those as #eatures in the sstem' ou can ,rite them usin a eneral-

purpose prorammin lanuae.

%hat$s ,here most o# the research has one' the latest iteration 7 loo&ed at had

SHA as the minin alorithm ,hich is 3asicall no innovation at all' the$re still

usin SHA-@ so it$s the same as Bitcoin and the #ees ,ere 2ed 3 the client.

At the moment and &eep in mind ou$re minin test ether 6ust li&e 3ein on

testnet and 6ust li&e on testnet the diGcult is prett lo, so an3od can o in

and mine. 7 mined 0'000 ether over a period o# time 6ust on m laptop' so it

allo,s ou to mine enouh to pla around ,ith contracts. 7t$s not ,orth anthin

3ecause it$s not real ether' its test ether.

7t doesn$t ans,er an o# those ?uestions 3ut ,hat it does ans,er is' ,hat 7 can

do ,ith the contracts and ,hat &ind o# contracts can 7 ,rite. %hat$s the ?uestion

7$m most interested in' that$s ,h 7$m plain ,ith it. But it hasn$t ans,ered our

?uestions et' Stephanie.


14/23

SM: %he$re holdin those thins constant >ou said that the transaction #ees and

alorithms are a means to an end ,hich is the contracts. %hat ma3e so' 3ut

the$re ver important means the means and the means have to 3e compati3le

at the end #or somethin to ,or& out. %hose are ver important incentives' ou

can$t 6ust put anthin in there and it$ll ,or&. 7 thin& the$re super important

?uestions to ans,er.

AA: %he ma ive us the ,ron ans,ers' ,e$ll 2nd out. 7# the ive us the ,ron

ans,ers at least at the end o# it ,e$ll have a ne, scriptin lanuae #or doin

contracts and ,e can then implement an alternative alt-contract chain ,ith

perhaps 3etter ans,ers to the minin and #ee ?uestion.

But ou$re a3solutel riht Stephanie' ,ithout the riht ans,ers to those

?uestions' the pro6ect itsel# #ails.

ABL: %hese ?uestions 6ust don$t necessaril have ans,ers et and it seems li&e

+thereum are plannin on launchin at O Somethin li&e that' so the have

some time to 2ure out eactl ,hat the ,ant to decide. 7 actuall appreciatethe$re not 3lastin us ,ith ever sinle decision the ma&e and then chanin

their minds 3ecause the$re ,ron a3out a lot o# stu. %he$ve had a couple o#

minin alorithms alread' the haven$t 3een ,idel tal&ed a3out 3ecause ,hen

the actuall put them into practice it hasn$t 3een as ro3ust aainst the tpes o#

attac&s that the ,anted it to 3e.

%he last time 7 ,as tal&in a3out 4itali& a3out this' he ,as tal&in a3out ta&in

the idea that since the ,hole point o# the +thereum contract plat#orm is to

eecute contracts. %he 3est proo#-o#-,or& that ,ould taret the most eneral

computin ,ould in #act 3e somethin that doesn$t have a speci2c proo#-o#-,or&

at all 3ut instead eecutes random code that has 3een properl paid #or and run

throuh the +thereum net,or&. So essentiall ,hat ou$re doin is the proo#-o#-,or& #or runnin the net,or&' is runnin the net,or&.

AA: =iht' so contract eecution is the shared proo#-o#-,or& and i# ou eecute

enouh contracts and provide value that$s the thin' ou have to provide value

to the net,or& and the proo#-o#-,or& can either do it indirectl 3 securin the

net,or& or ou can do it directl as ou$ve discussed 3 thins such as proo#-o#-

pu3lishin' MaidSa#es proo#-o#-resource or as 4itali& said here' a proo#-o#-contract

eecution.

ABL: 7t$s not reall a stic&in point #or me' 7 ,ant to &no, the ans,ers to these

?uestions 3ut 7 appreciate that 7 don$t have people tellin me thins that the

don$t &no, are true. Because there is a lot o# tal& so 7$m "K ,ith them 3ein

?uiet a3out that. 7 don$t have an sta&e in it ,hatsoever at this point and i# it

comes out that the ans,ers to those ?uestions aren$t ones that 7 li&e' the 7

,on$t invest.

%hat$s the thin' in this initial period ,here there is no cro,d-sale possi3le' it$s

more entertainin than it is interestin as #ar as do 7 ,ant to put msel# in this

But at a certain point those ?uestions are oin to 3e ans,ered 3ecause the

have to 3e

SM: >ou 3rin up an interestin point Adam a3out the level o# ho, pu3lic a

compan ma&es their sausae ma&in' 7$m tal&in a3out developin the product'oin throuh dierent iterations o# ,hat the$re oin to ma&e certain


15/23

parameters do. 5ith BitShares as ,e said 3e#ore' ,e$ve seen BitShares o

throuh a lot o# dierent phases on ho, the run the client' the minin' the #ocus

o# the compan etc. Some people et reall uncom#orta3le a3out that' ,hen

the see all these decisions 3ein made out in pu3lic.

5hereas ,ith +thereum' 7 aree that the do &eep it a little more close to their

chest and some people ma 3e uncom#orta3le 3ecause the ,ant to &no,

everthin that$s oin on. %here is some innovation happenin there too 7

uess' in 6ust the structure o# ho, pu3lic companies are ,hen desinin these

ne, technoloies that no3od has the ans,ers too 3ecause the haven$t eisted

et.

ABL: +ver3od is learnin #rom ever3od else in the same' that$s reall one o#

the cooler parts a3out these meta-plat#orms is that there is competition' the

all ,ant to ,in' 3ut there is no hostilit and the$re mostl helpin each other.

%here is tal& a3out puttin on 6oint con#erences' there is a lot o# solidarit ,ithin

that space itsel#.

SM: =eall 7 don$t &no, i# 7 aree ,ith that. (Laughs)

ABL: 8o 5ho are ou seein that are oin a#ter each other 7$m 6ust not

seein it.

SM: 7 &no, there have 3een some disareements' some companies 3rea&in up

and (Cut of by Adam)

ABL: "K' i# ,e$re tal&in speci2call a3out aniel Larimer and Charles Hos&inson

,ho #ounded 7nvictus 7nnovations toether and then Charles le#t the compan in

"cto3er o# last ear. %hen the launched ProtoShares a month later' 3ut es' 7$m

sure that ,asn$t amica3le 3ut at the same time it$s not open hostilit. 7t$s not

3et,een those t,o pro6ects' it$s 6ust 3et,een those t,o individuals i# there is

anthin there at all.

AA: 5h can$t ,e all et alon

ABL: !or the most part' people are ettin alon and even pro6ects that directl

compete ,ith each other as 7 ,ould arue CounterPart and MasterCoin do'

the$re prett much ettin alon. %he$re learnin #rom each other' ta&in note

o# each other$s mista&es and ,hat the$re doin riht and the$re trin to

replicate it. 7 thin& that$s the ,hole thin a3out the open-source space is that'

this is the point. >ou don$t catalse the later pro6ects until ou have the earlier

pro6ects that anno some o# those point that o on to create the later pro6ects.AA: 7 thin& itQs health competition.

ABL: >es' ,e have diressed ?uite a 3it on the +thereum topic. 7 do ,ant to et to

these other protocols ,hilst ,e$re on this topic. So let$s 6ust to BitShares real

?uic&. 7 tal&ed a little 3it a3out BitShares in the topic ,ith +thereum 3ut there

has 3een a lot o# chanes and 7 6ust ,ant to 3rin people up-to-date as 7$m sure

there are some #ol&s ,ho paid attention to it last time ,e tal&ed a3out them on

the sho, 3ut haven$t reall done so since.

BitShares started o ,ith the idea that it ,as oin to 3e an entirel mined coin

and a#ter the eperience ,ith ProtoShares ,here the ,eren$t a3le to capture

an o# the mone and the sa, the mone ,as instead oin to the AmaFon


16/23

cloud service ,here people ,ere minin there. %he 3asicall said' i# people are

oin to dump mone into a compan' ,h not ma&e it our companD

%he then created somethin called AnelShares' ,hen the made this s,itch

the moved entirel a,a #rom the idea o# minin. ProtoShares remained a

mined to&en 3ut AnelShares ,as introduced ,here ou can ive mone to

addresses that 7nvictus controlled ,ith the idea that the ,ould 2nance their

operation and to catalse and nurture the AC environment the distri3uted

autonomous compan eco-sstem the ,ere tal&in a3out and trin to create.

%hat ,as a prett success#ul thin' the had a launch date #or their Kehotee

pro6ect.

L: %he primar pro3lem ,e have' is tin a name to pu3lic &e in a ,a that

cannot 3e spoo#ed. %raditionall this is done 3 usin certi2cate authorities li&e

4erisin that ,ill sin the pu3lic &e #or domain names that ou$re visitin. %he

pro3lem is the 8SA can #orce these companies to #ore sinatures so ou can$t

reall trust it' it$s a centraliFed solution. 7# ,e replace a certi2cate authorities,ith a Bloc&chain - D

ABL: 5hich ,as their initial messain product that the tal&ed to us a3out on


17/23

communicatin these chanes and a lot o# times thins have happened ,ith ver

short notice. %he didn$t have a 3lo up' the onl place ou could o #or

in#ormation on ,hat ,as oin on ,as readin throuh a 3unch o# threads on

their #orums.

%he recentl ot a 3lo up in the last month' the$re ma&in proress and the

have a ne, ,e3site. 7t$s &ind o# a mess o# a pro6ect. 7$m hopin the come out

,ith somethin ood 3ut at this point the$ve missed a lot o# launch dates.

SM: 7$ve 3een critical o# them a3out chanin a lot and not reall communicatin

a3out it' to a certain etent it$s hard to pull o a pro6ect li&e that. +speciall

,hen ou realise ou have to pivot and redirect' it$s reall hard to ma&e sure that

ou do that in a ,a that ever3od li&es' people are oin to 3e unhapp ,ith

it. But the 3iest companies all have a consistent messae' the ones that

succeed do one thin and the do it reall ,ell at least until the 3ecome a

&no,n compan then the 3ranch out. Ma3e the$re oin in that direction'

ma3e the could 3ene2t 3 oin in that direction.

7t$s a cool technolo' 7 ,as prett ecited a3out BitShares ,hen it 2rst came out

and 7 still thin& it has potential.

ABL: 7 still thin& it has potential too 3ut it 6ust 3ecomes a lot less uni?ue as time

oes on and other options come out and release an actual product that ,ere

announced a#ter the BitShares product ,as to 3ein ,ith. %hat$s the thin' it$s

not that this is a 3ad decision necessaril' it$s 6ust that it$s a 3i am3le. >ou sa

"K' ,e$re oin to 2 minin ,here no3od else has 2ed minin and ou

actuall have to do it other,ise ou don$t have a product.

5hereas i# ou do all o# the other stu ou ,ere oin to do' then release on

2in the #undamental in#rastructure laer and then launch a product that$s3ased on the ne, technolo that ou have tested' vetted and all that other

stu. 5hile ou had a product that did ,hat ou said ,as oin to do and

actuall ,or&s' ,ith the current environment' 7 #eel as thouh 7nvictus has reall

3ent ver heavil on completel reinventin transaction processin and 7$m 6ust

not convinced it ,as the 3est decision iven the overall environment that ,e$re

in.

(Intermission - advertisements)

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our Bitcoins. 5hen ou 3u a product #rom 3itcoinpac&ain.com ,ith Bitcoin

,e ,ill send ou a 10R re3ate o o# the alread lo, prices.

Bitcoinpac&ain.com is a virtual compan' ,e have no ,arehouse' truc&s or


18/23

sales people. Come to our store' ta&e a loo& around' spend some Bitcoin and tell

our #riends' 3itcoinpac&ain.com.

(End intermission)

SM: %he$re actuall not even 7nvictus anmore riht %he$re BitShares no,

ABL: 8o the are 7nvictus' the have separated the 3rands or at least tried to.

%he messain is incredi3l con#usin to me' it$s 3een a ver #rustratin

eperience 3ut no' the still are 7nvictus.

AA: 7t$s con#usin to ou and ou &no, it ?uite ,ell. 7t$s even more con#usin to

the rest o# us 3ut 7 thin& this demonstrates the thin that Stephanie ,as tal&in

a3out ,hich is the importance o# #ocus. Start-ups et distracted and et pulled

into multiple directions as the ta&e initial customer #eed3ac&' the tr to do too

much or the et distracted 3 thins that are not strateic and core to their

#unction.

%hat$s usuall ,hat &ills a start-up' it$s not starvation 3ecause the don$t have

enouh thins to pursue or enouh mar&et opportunities. 7t$s a diusion o# #ocus'

trin to ta&e on too much and ettin completel over,helmed.

ABL: "nce aain' 7$m &ind o# ,aitin to see ,hat happens ,ith that pro6ect.

Supposedl ,e have a release date comin up #or a test-net and aain' 7 6ust

,ant to see that there is a product here.

SM: Another thin that 7$m curious a3out is ho, the leal aspect is oin to ,or&

out' 7 &no, +thereum is trin reall hard to ma&e sure the don$t run a#oul o#

reulators. 7$m sure the other companies are too 3ut it$s an uncharted territor'7$m sure there are oin to 3e some overnment aents ,ho are oin to tr to

sa that an one o# these companies are 3rea&in some la,s' ,hether it$s the

SCC or some other aenc' other countr etc.

7t$s a real challene to tr to 2ure out ho, to protect oursel# in an environment

li&e that' is ar3itrar.

ABL: %he net one that came out chronoloicall is CounterPart' 3ut 7 recentl

tal&ed ,ith =o33 one o# the developers on episode 10I' ou can learn a lot

a3out it there. Let$s tal& a3out 89% real ?uic&. 89% has al,as 3een a ,ildcard

pro6ect that had a trul anonmous #ounder ,hereas CounterPart recentl had

their developers come out and essentiall do a road sho, in Silicon 4alle trin

to raise a,areness a3out the CounterPart pro6ect.

%he 89% u al,as spo&e throuh a pro' at least that$s ,hat ,e$re led to

understand 3ecause the person ,ho ,as his pro' ,as also an anonmous

person. !or listeners ,ho didn$t #ollo, 89%' 89% is an alternative

implementation' it ,as created in


19/23

,hat-so-ever people are 6ust there. %here are no leaders ,ithin this space' not

even sel#-appointed leaders enerall spea&in. %here are people ,ho step-up

3ecause literall no one else has done it 3ut the don$t seem terri3le ,ell

e?uipped #or the 6o3 and the don$t even seem li&e the ,ant to do it. 7t seems

as thouh the$re doin it 3ecause some3od has to do it and it$s a ,a the can

contri3ute.

%his contrasts to a lot o# the pro6ects that are out there and BitShares is an

interestin one o# them 3ecause BitShares raised mone and haven$t done too

much ,ith it. A pro6ect recentl ,ent #rom BitShares to 89% that ,as oin to 3e

an echane #or BitShares 3ut 3ecause the$re havin delas and it$s hard' the

,ere a3le to o to the 89% communit and sa he ,e need #undin to 3e a3le

to do this ,ith 89%D and the communit actuall ponied up and invested in the

pro6ect' and itQs oin to happen.

7t$s 3een interestin ,atchin the headless nature o# this thin' ,hilst the don$t

have an 3road strate. %he do have a lot o# tactical a3ilit.

SM: >eah and ver recentl BC89% ,ho ,as li&e the Satoshi o# 89% said that the

,as oin to disappear and that the$re net pro6ect ,ould 3e one that ,as

pu3lic and had their name attached to it.

ABL: %he person completel ,al&ed a,a li&e a month 3e#ore that too.

AA: 5as this 3e#ore Circleopened

ALESM: (Laughs)

AA: Mhm' ,e &no, ,hat ou$re up to eah' o& sure' 7 ,as thin&in pro6ects outside o# Bitcoin' 3ut ou$re riht.

ABL: So that redundanc' that ,e can$t all ,or& in a linear #ashion in Bitcoin

3ecause no3od is in chare 3ut here that$s even more true 3ecause the core

dev team doesn$t even ,ant an responsi3ilit. 7 #eel li&e that core devs in Bitcoin

&ind o# &no, ,hat the ,ant Bitcoin to 3e' the have an idea o# ,hat the thin&

it$s oin to develop into or ,hat the$re oin to add to it. 7# someone has an

idea that$s directl contrar to that' that could cause #riction.

Ho,ever the 89% developers seem as thouh the have no am3itions ,hat-so-

ever and the$re mostl scared that their involvement is oin to et them in

trou3le. "ne o# the primar developers ,ho oes 3 the name o#


20/23

,ill not serveD' li&e 7$m oin to develop it and there is nothin ou can do to

ma&e me do anthin else.

%hat has meant there is no, a lot o# development in 89% and ,here a pro6ect li&e

Bitcoin ,here 7 thin& ,e have some,here a3ove 10 ,allets. 89% launched ,ith T

and the have a 3unch more in the ,or&s too. %here is 6ust all this redundanc

that ou et 3 not havin an3od' 3 not havin an3od ,ho ou ,ould ,ant

to as& #or permission. People ma ,ant to as& some3od #or permission in

Bitcoin 3ut ,ith 89% ,ho the hec& are ou oin to do that ,ith %here is

no3od

AA: 7 ,ould li&e to announce the launch o# the 89% association' it$s an association

that$s centraliFed and ou can all come and as& me #or permission

But it$s a ver dierent approach to doin thins' it$s &ind o# planned anarch'

it$s deli3erate.

SM: %hat$s a 3i dra, #or a lot o# people thouh.

AA: A3solutel' o# course it is' no, the ?uestion is ,hether it ,or&s and scales

and that aain is oin to 3e ans,ered 3 the mar&et.

ABL: 7t remains to 3e seen i# indeed it ,or&s and scales' 3ut so #ar it seems to 3e

,or&in and the have a 3unch o# ,allets out there on the main net. People are

transactin value' 7 don$t thin& there is too much in the ,a o# commerce or

acceptance. %his is another reall interestin point' #or people ,ho are thin&in

a3out ma&in reall innovative coins' ou should understand that a coin li&e 89%

has a real pro3lem ,hen it comes to ettin included on echanes 3ecause it$s

so dierent #rom Bitcoin ,hich is ,hat these echanes are used toincorporatin. +ver time the incorporate an Alt-coin the 3asicall 6ust do the

same thin that the did #or Bitcoin ,ith a little 3it more in#ormation and run a

dierent thin' 3ut ,ith this it$s totall dierent.

SM: >eah' 7 remem3er at one point ma3e a couple o# months ao. %here ,ere a

lot o# echanes that ,ere processin 89% ,ithdra,als manuall ,hich caused a

lot o# delas and people ,ere li&e ,hat$s oin on hereD 7 thin& ,e have to ive

them credit #or actuall havin a distri3uted echane' that$s somethin a lot o#

people tal& a3out that not man actuall have even i# it$s rudimentar' the do

have somethin that &ind o# ,or&s' riht

ABL: >eah a3solutel' aain' in trin to 2ure out ,here 7 ,ant to 3uild L%Bcoin 7have loo&ed at all o# these options in-depth and have ,or&ed ,ith a variet o#

the ,allets so#t,are on each one and enerall spea&in 89% is prett solid 3ut it

#eels sti.

%he dierence 3et,een an application that #eels reall ood to use and an

application that doesn$t #eel reall ood to use' a lot o# times is 6ust ho,

responsive it #eels and that$s ,hat 7 et ,ith a lot o# the earl so#t,are there is

no responsiveness ,hat-so-ever in it and a lot o# the thins ou ,ould intuitivel

thin& such as clic& and drain' riht clic&in on somethin #or more

in#ormation are instead hidden 3ehind static one-clic& menus (3uried stu).

%here is a lot o# user eperience stu that still has a lon ,a to o' that$s

another 7 have noticed in the last si months is that a lot o# people ,ho have a


21/23

lot o# s&ills on the user eperience side are reall 6umpin into Bitcoin ,hereas

3e#ore it ,as mostl developers.

So eah 7 a3solutel thin& that 89% deserves a lot o# credit and 7$m continuin to

pa attention to it' it 6ust didn$t 2t the needs ,ith ,hat ,e$re doin ,ith L%Bcoin

3ecause it didn$t have as #ull #eatured decentraliFed AC7 echane as

CounterPart ,hich is ,ho ,e pic&ed to 3uild L%Bcoin on. Another #unn thin

that ou said ,as that' havin an AC7 echane is a 3i deal and ou$re totall

riht. But isn$t it hilarious ho, it ,ent #rom no3od havin an AC7 echane to

no, there 3ein three riht no, ,or&in and availa3le on MasterCoin'

CounterPart and 89% all ,ithin a t,o months o# each other

SM: A3solutel' a lot o# these technoloies people ma have the same idea so

the race to et it out' sometimes it$s not 6ust one entit that comes out ,ith a

ne, technolo 2rst' sometimes it$s &ind o# a 3unch. Li&e a little 3unch o# rapes

the all come out at once. More competition is reat' people can use the onethe li&e 3est.

ABL: >eah' that$s the core' that ,e$re solvin pro3lems here. %he pro3lems don$t

stop 3ein pro3lems 6ust 3ecause some3od else is ,or&in on a solution #or that

pro3lem' the stop 3ein pro3lems ,hen the$re actuall solved. =e#erencin

3ac& to Andreas earlier comment' the mar&et is decidin' it is ma&in these

decisions 3ecause those are the people ,ho stic& around and those are the

solutions that succeed and the$re all the solutions that et copied more than

anthin else.

AA: >eah' ,hat all this demonstrates is that Bitcoin opened the door to currenc

3ein a choice and ,hat ou open the door to currenc 3ein a choice and

people start ma&in choices' then ou unleash this incredi3le ,ave o#

in#ormation that ,as pent up 3e#ore and at 2rst it seems ,eird 3ecause ou have

to ma&e a lot o# choices and it isn$t so simple. At least 3e#ore 7 had dollars' that$s

all' no choice. 7 didn$t reall need to thin& a3out ,hat the monetar polic ,as'

,hat the decentraliFation plat#orm ,as or ho, it ,as t,ea&ed' ho, it ,as

operatin' ,here is the control line.

All those thins ,e didn$t have to thin& a3out 3e#ore 3ecause ,e didn$t have a

choice' no, ,e need to thin& a3out those and there is a lot o# dierent choices

to ma&e' that can 3e over,helmin 3ut out o# those choices ou et innovation'ou et improvement. 5e$re seein' &ind o#' a 3rave ne, ,orld ,here currenc

is an eperimental plaround and even 3eond that' consensus Bloc&chain

plat#orms are an eperimental plaround and ,e$re oin to see a lot o#

eperimentation o on in the net couple o# ears.

ABL: So ,rappin this up' i# ou ,ould li&e to learn more a3out an o# the to&ens

that ,e tal&ed a3out ou can 2nd in#ormation a3out MasterCoin at

mastercoin.or

>ou can 2nd in#ormation a3out BitShares at 3itshares.or

>ou can 2nd in#ormation a3out +thereum at +thereum.or


22/23

>ou can 2nd in#ormation a3out 89% at m89%.in#o

7# ou$d li&e to learn more in#ormation a3out CounterPart' ou can o to

counterpart.co

%his ,as de2nitel not a complete run do,n o# an o# these thins' it ,as more

o# an update that turned into a lon and meanderin conversation. 7 a3solutelencourae ou to do our o,n research on all o# these thins 3e#ore puttin an

o# our o,n #unds on the line. Also remem3er that ,e$re &ind o# actin in our

o,n 3est interest too.

People ,ho are in #avour o# Bitcoin and Crptocurrencies tend to 3e invested in

them and this is ver true at least #or me.

SM: Can ,e ive a little update a3out L%Bcoin' 7 ,onder ,hether people ,ere

,onderin a3out that.

ABL: Sure ,hat do ou ,ant to &no,

SM: 7 thin& the audience ma ,ant to &no,' ho, it$s comin' ,hen it$s oin to

3e released etc

ABL: Let$s %al& Bitcoin ,ill 3e out as soon as ,e can et it out' ,e$re ,or&in ver

hard to ma&e it a ver innovative product and 7 thin& that ,hen people see ,hat

,e$ve come up ,ith it$ll 3e reall interestin. All o# the 3asics are there 3ut there

are a lot more speci2cs and a lot more sstems to include ever3od and

ultimatel to tr and improve the ?ualit o# content 3oth on the ,ritten side

instead o# 6ust the audio side ,hich is prett much ,hat 7$ve 3een 3uildin it #or

too.

;ltimatel 7 hope that the model that ,e$re launchin ,ill essentiall compete,ith the HuGnton Post' in that it ,ill allo, users to create their o,n 3lo or o,n

sho, and have the audience or the plat#orm 3e a3le to curate it up so that it can

see the eposure and reconition it deserves 3ased on the ?ualit o# it. %hat$s

hard to do 3ut 7 thin& ,e$ve ot some ood solutions and it$s reall a3out

3uildin tools at this point as ,ith all o# this stu its literall li&e i# ou have a car

3e#ore as stations' it$s use#ul 3ut it$s not that use#ul and some3od has to 3uild

a as station.

%hat$s 3asicall ,here ,e are &no,' ,e$re ,or&in ,ith people to 3uild as

stations and 3uildin as stations ourselves so that then all this stu can happen

and not 3e such a manual process.

AA: 7t$s hard to do 3ut 7 thin& it$s ,orth doin 3ecause it chanes the nature o#

pu3lishin dramaticall.

ABL: 5ell ultimatel this chanes the nature o# everthin' it$s that no

monopolies thin. 7n a #uture sho, ,e$ll tal& a3out this 3ut 7 had an article

pu3lished ,ith techcrunch that ,as pulled a3out MaidSa#e 3ecause 7 had a tip

,idet in it. 7 had cleared it ,ith m editor at techcrunch and it ,as no 3i deal'

,e had tal&ed a3out it ,ee&s 3e#ore' so it ot included in the article and it

caused this 3i political &er#uUe ,ithin their oranisation 3ecause m article ,as

pulled' ,as never put 3ac& up' 7 ,as never compensated #or it. But 7 thin& that$s

the 2rst instance o# an article 3ein pulled #or the inclusion o# a Bitcoin displa

,idet' so 7 ,as prett happ to have that.


23/23

SM: 5ell 7 hope it ets ou more pu3licit than a techcrunch article could.

ABL: 5ell that$s o&' li&e 7 said' this is all a3out the 2rst$s riht 7n order #or there

to 3e a second there has to 3e a 2rst. 7$m al,as ver happ to 3e 2rst ,here

ever possi3le.

SM: 5hat ,as the 3i pro3lem ,ith ou havin a tip ,idet

ABL: %here is a 3i ?uestion a3out ,hether it$s morall o&a #or readers or an

audience to directl compensate the content creators in a sstem ,here that$s

not the ,a it normall ,or&s. %he ,a it normall ,or&s is that techcrunch

,ould have paid me V100 as a #reelancer #or the article and that ,ould have

3een it. %he interestin part ,as that in the hour that it ,as up' 7 received V.0

,orth o# Bitcoin' so in that hour #rom a couple o# people ivin me li&e V0. on

averae 7 had 1E o# the entire amount 7 ,as oin to ma&e #rom that article.

%his ,as #rom it not 3ein up that lon' a3out a ver technical topic and ver #e,

people have Bitcoin that the ,ant to spend li&e this. So 7 thin& that the model o#connectin content creators directl to their audience and turnin the plat#orm

#rom 3ein li&e a ate&eeper to instead 3ecome a utilit. As a utilit ou chare

much lo,er rate 3ecause ou$re a utilit and ou have competition 3ecause

there are other plat#orms that people can choose to use.

%hat$s the core idea here' it$s somethin that i# it could 3e stopped' it ,ould 3e

stopped. Anthin disruptive that can 3e stopped ,ill 3e stopped in the

environment that ,e live in no,' simpl 3ecause disruption comes at the cost o#

the leac. %hat$s the thin' ou can$t stop this stu' ,hether ,e$re tal&in a3out

mone' compensation or emploment in eneral' ou can$t stop this stu and so

it$s the #uture.

ABL: Content #or this episode ,as provided 3 Stephanie Murph' Andreas M.

Antonopoulos and Adam B. Levine. %his episode ,as edited 3 Adam B. Levine.

Music #or this episode ,as provided 3

let's talk bitcoin, episode 112, "metacoin microcosm"

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