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Living A Course in Miracles

Healing in the Mind: Depression

Week 6 Class

David Hoffmeister with Jennifer Hadley

Living A Course in Miracles

David Hoffmeister with Jennifer Hadley

Healing In The Mind: Depression .............................................................................. 4

Opening Prayer .............................................................................................................. 4

We Heal at the Level of the Mind .................................................................................... 5

Three Steps to Heal Blame and Shame ........................................................................... 6

A Sense of Unworthiness Hinders Healing ..................................................................... 7

A Course in Miracles on Depression ............................................................................... 9

Flickers of Light Even in the Midst of Depression ......................................................... 10

The Power of the Mind Creates the Turnaround to Happiness ................................... 12

What Is Dark Night of the Soul? .................................................................................. 14

We Assist Healing with Gratitude ............................................................................... 15

It’s Always About Practice .......................................................................................... 17

Jesus’ Four Word Prayer ............................................................................................. 18

We Will Never Intellectually Understand A Course in Miracles .................................. 19

Our Foundation Rests on Humility ............................................................................. 22

What Happens When We Label Ourselves .................................................................. 24

We Let Go of Misperception of the Entire World .......................................................... 27

Non-Judgment Is Key .................................................................................................. 29

David’s Offerings .......................................................................................................... 31

Closing Prayer ............................................................................................................. 32

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Healing in the Mind: Depression 4

Week 6

Healing In The Mind: Depression David Hoffmeister & Jennifer Hadley Thursday, October 11, 2012

Opening Prayer

Jennifer I’m going to invite everybody to turn within and place your hand on your heart. We place our hand on our heart, in part, because it’s a physical reminder that the kingdom is within.

And this is the thing that we are placing first, and foremost. The kingdom’s preinstalled. And we're opening our heart and mind to know it fully, and completely, as our true identity.

And we also place our hand on our heart and take this breath of love and gratitude because it lifts our vibration. It centers our mind into love, into opening our awareness to what the Holy Spirit is pulling forward through us.

We're grateful to open ourselves to remember our true identity, to release any attachments we have to playing small, to living in a false identity.

We're releasing any sense of lack, limitation, separation, and we're opening our hearts and minds to a full understanding of the unity of all life, and we're celebrating that together.

We are truly sharing the benefits of our healing and our expansion with everyone because we're one with them. In grace and gratitude, we let it be and so it is. Amen. Amen.

David Hoffmeister with Jennifer Hadley 5

We Heal at the Level of the Mind

It feels good. Our topic this week is Healing In The Mind: Depression. And I think it was in Living A Course in Miracles 2, the topic was All Healing Is at the Level of the Mind and what does that really mean and understanding that.

People have been saying they're really experiencing the healing from this Living A Course in Miracles series. And so many people are challenged with healing at one level, or another, and for many the whole concept that all healing is at the level of the mind is like the mind fights that idea. “No, no. The trouble has to be out here. No, I have cancer because I was exposed to something. I have this challenge because these… I’m depressed because I was raped. I'm depressed because I lost my job,” right?

People want to find an excuse out there to blame it on. They want to have that reason. And taking personal responsibility without blame is something people have to learn how to do because we're taught the opposite.

Responsibility is blame. Blame is what we do. Just starting with that one thing of how do you take responsibility without blame…

David Yeah, I think right away just the definition of seeming to come to this planet, or come to time and space, is really a reflection of this belief in lack and the belief in wanting to find a false cause for that lack, looking outside in the world.

And that can be for that lack of happiness toward peace, or lack of material possessions, or anything. And so that's where the reflection of forgetting the true cause, which we could say is source, or spirit, or God, and looking outside for externals.

So, the first step in claiming responsibility is to turn it around and begin to open to that idea of, “I am responsible for my state of mind. I am not a victim of the world I see. I am not at the mercy of the world I see,” knowing full well it’s going to take a lot of practice.


It’s not going to be something where you just say it two, or three, times and click your heels together and suddenly, ah, that's it. It could happen that way. That's the good thing.

If you really have a sincere desire, it can be a flash like that, too, but for most people it’s going to be very much of a practice just reorienting and saying, “No, I'm hurt by nothing but my thoughts. I’m only upset for the thoughts that I'm thinking, the beliefs that I'm holding onto, and it really doesn't have anything to do with the world that seems to be outside of me.”

Jennifer And so this understanding that I'm only hurt by the thoughts that I'm thinking, that level of taking responsibility, many, many people avoid. They desperately avoid it.

You can't have any happiness until you're willing to take responsibility. It’s like wandering in a dark forest until you're willing to take responsibility for the thoughts you think.

For someone who is just so deeply entrenched in placing blame, or even blaming themselves because so many people are truly attacking themselves all the time.

I think, in a certain way, that that is the biggest illness, if you will, that people have is the self-attack. Getting out of that kind of washing machine loop, what do you think is the fastest way?

Three Steps to Heal Blame and Shame

David I think the fastest way I would say first is you have to have a contact point, a touchstone, something you can relate to. So, if you meet someone, or you read about someone, or even some of the saints and mystics and avatars, it’s just like this bursting example of, “It’s possible.” It’s actually possible.

I think that was the first step. Then the second step is having the faith and trust in yourself that you can go the distance. And you can do whatever it takes. You can do the mind training.

And then third, the trust in the higher power that's with you because, really it’s going to be working with the higher power is going to be how


it occurs. It’s not going to be a personal achievement, or goal. So, those are the three things that come to mind immediately.

Jennifer Well, you know, one of the issues with trust and faith is most people, and I know this has been an issue for me too, most people they will have experiences like this.

They'll say, “I'm not going to eat any of those cookies,” and then the next thing they know they've eaten 10 of them. Or, they say, “I'm not going to sleep with that person again,” and then the next thing they know they're waking up beside them.

We all have these kinds of experiences. We say we're not going to do something again, and then we do it again. We develop this complete lack of trust and faith in our own ability to keep any kind of agreement, right?

David Yes.

Jennifer I mean that is so debilitating. And then what happens is people don't keep their commitments to themselves and their experience in life is that they're betrayed at every turn and things are unsubstantial. Things fall through the cracks. They can't seem to get anything going. They get the promise of a job and then it falls through. Somebody says, “I love you,” and then they leave them.

It’s just a constant sense of betrayal and it’s really an outpicturing of the fact that they're not willing to keep the commitments to themselves.

A Sense of Unworthiness Hinders Healing

David Yep, that's it. Underneath that, I feel it’s this unworthiness issue. In other words, they don't really feel like they're worthy of commitment, they're worthy of consistent mind training. They're not worthy of peace of mind.

And then they just draw forth all these symbols and scenarios and situations and witnesses that make it like a loop where they're convinced like, “Oh, there it is. There's the evidence again. Look at that. Look at that. Look at that.”


And it’s very self-defeating, especially when we think that our higher self is just buried under all of these shenanigans and these disguises. And we really need to learn to see these disguises for what they are, and say, “No, I am worthy and I'm not going to bite on those tricks anymore.”

Jennifer When you fall into that mental pattern that you just mentioned about really… I call it gathering the evidence to support the case that you're not worthy, or that the world is broken, or you're broken. You can't be fixed.

When you're gathering the evidence to support your case, what I say it’s like now you've become an attorney arguing for the ego.

David Yep. You're collecting a lot evidence. You're building a case instead of dismantling the case. And the Holy Spirit is always going to dismiss the case.

But it’s like as long as you feel like the case is for you and it’s an airtight case and there's no way out, then it just seems to reflect back to you that it’s just that way.

Jennifer In my own exploration, that sense of unworthiness, for me, I recognize that it came from, I knew what the loving choices were, but I didn't choose them.

And so I didn't feel worthy of the great love because I had opportunities to fulfill my holy purpose, and express love, and I didn't take them. I refused them. I, in fact, said, “I don't feel like it. I'd rather attack that person. I'd rather think the thoughts of lack and attack, and rather think the thoughts of blame and shame.”

If you keep that up enough and you don't really work to counteract it and reveal the truth of your being, you begin to feel completely like you're falling into quicksand.

David Yep. It’s like every time that happens, it’s just a wrong-minded decision and, when you perpetuate that by choosing wrongly, or choosing erroneously, then that does seem to have a self-fulfilling prophesy of bringing you these upsetting emotions and this feeling of lack.


A Course in Miracles on Depression

And I really enjoy the definition in A Course in Miracles of depression where it says, “Depression comes from a sense of being deprived of something you want and do not have. You are deprived of nothing except by your own decision. Then decide otherwise.”

I like that. It’s something that you want but do not have. So, there're two things there: this idea of wanting and the idea of not having. And when you put those together, it’s kind of this searching mechanism of searching outside and never being fulfilled.

And I think what happens when you finally start to take responsibility, and you start to feel this healing energy and joy moving in you, and through you, is you start to feel that what you want is what you have.

You want peace and you begin to experience that you have it. And that kind of ignites this, “Oh, this is real. This is natural. This is what I was seemingly missing all along. And it’s a state of mind and I am responsible and I can choose it. I can actively choose it. It doesn't have to be this illusive thing that other people can choose.” But you see that you can do it yourself.

Jennifer Yeah, the amazing fact is, and it’s an absolute fact, I've seen it over and over again, I've seen people make the decision to… I call it holding your feet to the fire. You decide, “I'm going to do the deepest practice I can do. I am going to really require of myself to make loving choices and to give up the thoughts of lack and attack, to give up the thoughts of judgment.”

As we were talking about it earlier, I place them on the altar. I think of giving it to the Holy Spirit saying, “This thought no longer interests me. I don't need it anymore.”

And I ask for assistance, “Will you help me remove it from my mind?” But if people aren't willing to do that level of discipline, there's no way out. There's no way out. And then how could you not get depressed?

David Yeah, that would, of course, be the outcome with that kind of thinking. And then, of course, this happy, joyful, free flowing experience would be


the outcome of right-minded thinking, of thinking with your source instead of trying to think against your source.

What we discover, I think, is we come to a sense of disillusionment with this world of seeing, “Oh, I must have been wrong. I must have chosen wrongly, and I wanted a better way.”

And everyone comes to it in their own time, and their own readiness, but it’s beautiful to see that it is that simple that, at some point, you get tired of the sadness, of the loneliness, of the depression and something rises up inside and says, “I want this and I deserve this and I am going to experience this. And when the mind is ready, then it just ignites the healing process.

Jennifer It’s true. Last week we were at lunch and I was asking you, “Did you ever have a time in your life where you felt suicidal, or depressed?” And you said…

David Oh, yes.

Jennifer It’s so funny. We say, “Yeah, we were feeling that way.” Now we laugh about it.

David We were comparing notes. I think it was in our 20s, too. We both were going through it about the same time.

Jennifer Yeah, it was around the time I was 26, 27 years old. And, yeah, I reached a point where it was so clear. I didn't have a clue. I didn't know where to get a clue. I didn't know anybody that had a clue and so I was clueless.

David Yeah.

Jennifer And it made me want to kill myself because I didn't imagine that it could get better. And I knew that I didn't know what I was doing because I was able to accomplish the things in the world that I thought would make me happy, but they weren't making me happy.

Flickers of Light Even in the Midst of Depression

David Yeah, and for me, it kind of… I also felt a sense of accomplishment, but also there was this sense of deep boredom. That was part of the


disillusionment, like yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. Like where’s the passion? Where’s the spark?

And that can easily turn into depression, when you just feel a boredom that just gets deeper and deeper and deeper. It just seems like there's no way out. And yet, it’s just like a contrast experience because it’s so unnatural to our mind as the way God created it, that it turns into a big wakeup call.

If the spirit even uses that huge contrast of the extreme sadness, depression, boredom, and then these bursts of joy that can come, sometimes just like these little flickers of light that come through and it takes our breath away.

What was that? Oh, my gosh, because it’s like, “Wow! Something happened there.” And then we start to get more than flickers of light and that's very encouraging.

And then for most of us, I know for you and I, it just caught fire. It turned from a flicker of light into a forest fire. And not only experiencing it for ourselves, but of course, this forest fire of desiring to just extend it to all of our beloveds, which really is just that desire for love to be itself, not that it’s trying to go out and reach people. It’s just so radiant and we just get totally swallowed up by it.

Jennifer That's true. I love that you brought up the subject of boredom. And sometimes I'll hear somebody say, “Oh, what did you do this weekend?” And the person will say, “Oh, nothing. I was so bored.”

And I remember hearing somebody say that, oh, I don't know, 10 years ago, and I thought, “Gosh, I think the last time I was bored I was like 12, or something.”

But that's not true. But it feels like a long time since I was bored. I’m curious what your take is, David, because my sense about boredom is, in order to be bored you have to be working extremely hard to deny that divine connection, because when you're living in that spark of divine connection, there's a constant stream of creativity and just the breathtaking clarity, and all of that, that it seems inconceivable that you could be bored.


It just feels like your mind has to work so intently to deny that and experience boredom.

David Yeah, I can relate to that because it seems like that to really be bored, it’s when you think of it it’s like it’s an incredible achievement, incredible meaning unbelievable in the sense that it does take so much work to block the light out, the light of who you are.

And yet, when the mind becomes so accustomed, and familiar, with these defense mechanisms and these seeming delusional patterns and everything, then it seems to flip around where the sadness, the unhappiness, the boredom seem natural. And then, basically, happiness seems like an elusive dream.

Jennifer Right.

The Power of the Mind Creates the Turnaround to Happiness

David So, when people will say to me, “How can you be so happy? How can you be so consistently happy?” And it’s more that feeling, “How could I not be?” because of what I'm experiencing and what I know to be true and what is sourcing through me. How could I not be happy?

It would be incredulous to think of myself as bored, or sad. And yet, we're here to talk about this turnaround because when you believe that happiness is elusive, it seems to be an all pervasive belief.

One idea I was sharing recently, just a few days ago, was that since everything is mind and everything is consciousness, that whatever you desire, you actually desire for the whole universe because actually, really literally, you are the whole universe.

So, if you desire a Snickers Bar, the whole cosmos desires a Snickers Bar. If you want a Coke, or a Pepsi, the whole cosmos wants a Coke, or Pepsi.

At first it’s like, “Oh, come on,” but the more you open up to it, you start to realize that the mind is that powerful, and that these private worlds with private thoughts and all these people we see are just reflecting our beliefs about who we are.


And they're acted out. Sometimes the fantasies are just seemingly thoughts in mind. Sometimes they're acted out as characters in the dream world, but our mind is that powerful.

And you do have to come to some acknowledgement of the power of the mind in order to actually have that turnaround.

Jennifer It occurs to me to ask you, David, what is your perception about the relationship between resistance and reluctance and depression?

David I think resistance… I did enjoy the psychotherapy pamphlet, I believe it was, where Jesus described resistance in a positive way, in a sense that it’s just the ego’s interpretation of progress and growth, which to me means the progress and growth, the expansion of the mind and consciousness is constantly occurring. And the ego is not happy about that because it’s being undone.

So, it describes the feeling, the contraction, the catharsis, or more the slowness of the mind as resistance, when actually it’s just interpreting against the awakening.

And I find as soon as you start to release those interpretations, you start to receive the benefits. In one sense I think the resistance is directly related. And it’s just more of an interpretation coming from the ego.

Jennifer Mmhmm, mmhmm. And I'm sure you have seen it that people who have been intensely depressed, suicidal as we were talking about before, can literally turn things around so quickly that, as they say, it can make your head spin.

David Yeah.

Jennifer People think that, “Oh, no. This is going to be a slow drip process.” But it’s really only according to your willingness to surrender your point of view.

David Yeah, I think that's it. It could be very, very radical and very, very fast. For some people it is. But it’s like it’s just an assumption to think that those kind of thoughts, attack thoughts or suicidal thoughts, will last you your whole lifetime, because a lot of people have gone through those periods of time, and very, very dark phases and they've come out


soaring on the other side, so to speak, and they just really were ready for a change of mind. They were ready to sing another tune.

Jennifer Talking about the darkness, some spiritual seekers go through what they term a dark night of the soul. Is there a difference between that and depression?

What Is Dark Night of the Soul?

David I think, yeah, depression seems to be more something that a lot of people can relate to. And I think the dark night of the soul is for people that have consciously been on a spiritual journey and they drop deeper and deeper and deeper into the unconscious mind.

They get so deep that they start to feel rage, or anger, depression, sadness. And they look around and there's no trigger. They can't even see anything in the world. They may be out in the woods like we are in a beautiful jungle here. And it’s idyllic. The world would say, “You’ve got a sunny day in a beautiful jungle, what’s the problem?”

But when you go into that much deeper sense of letting go where it’s like the ego is screaming inside, “Don't abandon me. You swore you would never turn your back on me,” that's what I call dark night of the soul.

I kind of reserve the term more for when you're going really deep into the mind and to mysticism versus more generalized depression, which seems to be related to a lot of things in the world, but really isn't. It’s just the ego associates it with a sense of depravation and lack in worldly terms.

Jennifer I truly believe that love is the healer, that love is the only healer there is. And for people who are having any kind of a healing challenge, that love can heal any kind of a challenge that you're having, whether it’s physical, mental, emotional, financial. Love can actually heal it.

We don't know how it works, in a sense. We don't really know how it works. It’s like we're not able to see beyond time and space right now to see how it works, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work and that it’s not working every single time.


And so it is a matter of having trust and faith in love being the healer. And again, we are cultivating the ability to be loving, to be kind, to be compassionate, to be generous, to be patient, all these kinds of expressions of love, without giving to get.

David Yes.

Jennifer It’s because love doesn't give to get.

David Yeah.

Jennifer You know, love is unconditional. For people who are depressed, or maybe… A lot of times with depression, there's a sense of deep rage, like a controlled rage along with that depression.

For people who are feeling that, how can they employ love to assist them in healing, but not fall into that trap of giving to get?

We Assist Healing with Gratitude

David Yeah, I think the trap is what seems to make it difficult, but I remember Michael Jackson said one time, “I'm a lover, not a fighter.” And I think you could say you want to be a giver, not a getter is a quick way to remember it.

But also because the giving doesn't have any kind of conditions along with it, you need to have some experiences of that. I remember Oprah Winfrey, on her show, she would always ask people to keep a gratitude journal. And it was like people cultivating good mental habits, to start to give gratitude for everything in their life, just to actually sit down and spend the 5 or 10 minutes. What are you really grateful for?

And you can start anywhere. You can start with something physical, something tiny seemingly in your awareness. But it’s a start. That's the little spark.

And then you write down more and more and more. It’s like you start to turn the tables on the ego. You start to actually look for gratitude. You start to be like a gratitude finder, or a love finder, and not be a blame finder, or not have that question always niggling in there, “Well, what’s in it for me?” or, “What am I going to get out of this?”


It’s so habitual with the ego. But there comes a point where it starts to feel real good just to share and extend and be helpful. And then the spirit takes it much further. It shows us how to really be truly helpful. And it literally lifts us up and takes us all the way home.

Jennifer Yes, yes. What occurs to me is, there are folks over the years… You probably have this experience, too. Folks will come. They're suffering. They're mentally, emotionally suffering in some way. Maybe they're physically suffering. They're asking for assistance and support in finding their way out of the darkness and the despair.

I don't know about you, but I'll give suggestions, gratitude practices, different kinds of practices, because it’s always about the practices. It’s never, “Well, go see this guy. Give him $20 and he’ll give you the thing that will make you feel better.”

David Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer No, it’s always an inside job. It’s always about developing the willingness and the consistency and the commitment. It’s never, ever going to ever, ever be about anything else.

What I see though is, some people will actually do those practices and then they will have miraculous healing experiences. And they'll be led from one thing to another and they'll be lifted up and provided for.

And then other people will come back six months later, a year, and the problem is now worsened. And they can't seem to get any headway. And I'll ask them, “So, did you do the things that we talked about last time?” And they will either say one of two things. They'll either say, “No, I didn't do those things,” or they'll say, “What were those things?” which is the same as saying, “No.”

Do you see that consistently, too, that there are folks, they keep asking the same questions. The challenge is getting more intense, and yet they ask for advice but they don't follow. They're not willing to do the practices.

David Yeah, yeah. It does seem to be that there's a readiness thing in there because the old saying, “You can lead a horse to water but you can't


make him drink.” It has to be voluntary and there has to be a readiness underneath it.

I kept bringing it back to my own mind. Every time I would find somebody that was unwilling, or would seem to be delaying, procrastinating, whatever, I would just hear the spirit inside say, “Well, what about you?”

It was always, “What is it? It’s your lesson. It’s your lesson. What about you? What about you?” And I love that. I would be like, “Oh, yeah, thank you. Oh, that helps.”

It’s Always About Practice

And then I would focus on what my intention was, what my purpose was, get back right on track. And eventually, if you do that enough, you find out it is all about your mind. And it is about having that connection with spirit. And it’s real simple that way. It’s not a complicated formula.

But without that habit, it just seems like the ego mind is always looking outside. It doesn't really want to heal. The ego does not want to heal. It feels that it will be undone if the healing occurs, so it’s coming up with all kinds of distractions and rebelliousness to actually saying, “Yes,” but at some point that does occur.

Jennifer What you're sharing about there is such a deep practice, to be able to say, instead of looking at the person and thinking, “Oh, they're separate from me. They have a problem.” But you say, “Oh, what about me?”

David Yeah.

Jennifer Yeah, and that is such a masterful practice. And it’s interesting because as you were talking about it, David, I was reminded of the Ho’oponopono .

Jennifer And here we are in Hawaii, and that beautiful practice, and Doctor Hew Len’s teaching, of course, many others too, and his work in the psychiatric ward there.

David Yeah.


Jennifer And just doing the practice of Ho’oponopono he was able to assist so many people in healing.

David Yeah. I think, in one sense, we have chosen a path of being what the Course would call miracle workers. And some people are very familiar with Ramana Maharshi and his path of stillness and self inquiry. Who is the “I”, and so forth.

I think it’s quite rare that people can consistently apply, who is the “I” with everything in this world. Talk about a shutdown. The mind’s like, “Oh, come on. Who is the “I” I have to do here on a daily basis?”

Jesus’ Four Word Prayer

But we're following the path which is more miracles are given us to share and extend and we're saying, “Yes.” In fact, I do remember the story of Bill Thetford because, at one point, in Absence From Felicity, Jesus was working with Helen and Bill. And Helen was asking Jesus for a prayer for Bill because his mind would get distracted so easily, like for most of us.

And basically, Jesus gave him a four word prayer. It’s great to get a four word prayer from Jesus Christ to bring you back. And the four words were, “Here I am, Lord.” That was four words for Bill, “Here I am, Lord.”

It’s coming back to, “Here I am, ready to serve, ready to be devoted, ready to do what you asked me to do.” And I think for us, that's been our life. It has been a service, not kind of in the social service, or trying to save the world, or save this or that.

But really, salvation is of the mind and we've been really tuned into, “Use me. Use me any way. I give it all over to you. Use me.” Then we start to experience miracles.

Then this darkness of unworthiness and lack starts to not be like a big ball. It starts to shrink down to a dot. And then, after awhile, the dot doesn't have a chance because of the light. And before you know it, you feel like you are the light.


Jennifer I love that. And the, “Here I am, Lord,” also here, here is the I Am presence. Here, where I am is the I Am. I am that I Am, and consistently remembering that.

David Yeah, very powerful. Very simple, but very powerful.

Jennifer Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I have that book, but I haven't read it yet.

David Yeah. We're here in Hawaii, too. And some people don't know that Bill Thetford’s teachers live here in Honolulu. I just visited them and they're 85 years old sparklers of joy.

And really when people say, “Well, actually, David, Bill was one of the first two A Course in Miracles students on the planet, so he didn't really have teachers, unless you consider Jesus, or something.” He worked with Jesus.

But actually what I mean by that is the inspirations that, when he went to Southern California, La Jolla, these were people that were living it, practicing the principles and truly having an experience. And that's really what the Course is about.

And I know you and I, Jennifer, we can talk and talk and talk about experience, and practice because, for us, that's been the way. And we have experienced it ourselves so we are very natural to share it and offer it and suggest it for those that ask, because it’s worked. And we just simply are offering what’s worked for us.

We Will Never Intellectually Understand A Course in Miracles

Jennifer I want to ask you, David. I encounter some people, and I was one of them, where there's an intellectual pursuit of spiritual knowledge and insight, well not insight, true insight, but more information.

And so people are reading all these books and they're taking all these classes and they're studying. And there's a sense that they're looking for the perfect guru, the perfect book, that somehow in the guru, or the book, is their awakening, is the answer.


It’s outside of them. It’s always outside of them. And very often, the more they pursue that knowledge and they think they know but they don't live it…

And for me, I thought I understood the law of cause and effect because I could speak about it. I could teach about it, but until I started to apply it to every minute of my life, I didn't know the law of cause and effect. I just had a concept. I didn't know it in my heart.

I just see so many spiritual seekers who seem to be stuck in the gathering of information. And they do, I think, have a tendency towards depression, towards that disillusionment, but sometimes they're comfortable enough that there isn’t a sense of real challenge, and… What’s the word? Like a crisis to propel them to really move into that surrender.

So, for people who are kind of riding that edge of uncomfortability and comfort, like creature comforts, but they're becoming more and more despairing, but kind of secretly sometimes because it’s not cool to be depressed and despairing if you're a spiritual know it all.

David If you're a self-help author, you better not be too depressed or it can hurt the fan base.

Jennifer It’s like that book, movie rather. What was it called? Yes Man. That's a good movie.

David Yeah, that's great.

Jennifer Yeah. To someone who’s in that situation, where they feel like they know so much but they just don't put it into the living practice, and so they're in this kind of malaise, what would you say to them?

David Well, yeah, the bubble’s going to pop. And the bubble is the idea that you're trying to apply the same principles of learning as you learned in school and high school and college, university, to the spiritual journey.

And it’s just not going to work. In fact, people will see the Course and they'll go, “Ah, I can sink my teeth into this, 1,200 some odd pages. I'm going to learn it all and I'm going to be an expert at it. And I'm going to teach it.”


And the ego might even add a few other things like, “I'm going to be famous at teaching it,” or, “I'm going to be prolific at teaching it,” or this or that, when actually it’s more like the Buddha had said about emptying the mind of everything you think you think and think you know.

And that's when the bubble pops, when you start to see that you will never, ever intellectually understand A Course in Miracles. Once you have that bubble popping experience, everything will shift from that point.

Because as long as you believe that it’s possible, the ego will push and push and push, and strive and strive and strive to kind of like collectively pull it together.

It’s almost like the more concepts that you learn, the closer you're reaching a threshold, and somehow you add more and more and more to it, you'll reach the threshold and go, “I got it. Where’s my diploma?”

But the Holy Spirit is not waiting with a diploma. The Holy Spirit is waiting with a needle to pop that bubble. And it can be a big pop. And then, at this point, it starts to get very, very humble where less is more.

You start to go down that thing where you start to be emptied out, more and more emptied out of opinions, emptied out of concepts. And you never know what’s going to come out of your mouth. But you know it’s going to come from an authentic expression, not from a regurgitating back something that you learned in the past.

It’s going to be bubbling out of you and you're going to have all this sparkling energy behind it because it’s the spirit pouring through. It’s not coming from concepts.

I always used to laugh about A Course in Miracles because, in the form of a course, I said, “Oh, that's really funny because it’s all about undoing and it’s really all about unlearning.” And yet it’s got all those terms of curriculum and learning goal, and so on and so forth, as if it’s kind of sucking the ego in to another great adventure.


And then all of a sudden the plug gets pulled. The needle pops the bubble and you are filled with grace and gratitude that it wasn't anything that you thought it was.

Jennifer Yeah. Aren't you glad you're wrong. Thank you, God.

David Yeah, yeah. It’s true. It’s true.

Our Foundation Rests on Humility

Jennifer I knew we would get around to humility, because in… And this was something that I was so grateful for this awareness when it came, that all the spiritual expansion that people are desiring, it rests on a foundation of true humility.

If you don't have that, all the doors of true mystical perception and opening, I think are closed unless you have true humility.

David Yeah, and I think that the only way that you come into that experience is through listening to the Holy Spirit and following. There's not going to be any kind of curriculum in the world. It’s not like with Toastmasters. You go to learn how to speak, or you do some kind of seminar on humility, or whatever.

It’s just quite the opposite. You start to listen. And the more you listen and follow, you just get more into the, “I do not know. I do not know the thing I am, what I'm doing, where I'm going, how to look upon myself with the world.”

Jesus calls this salvation. And it’s really what Buddha called emptiness. Empty the mind of everything. And to me, it’s like when Jesus was teaching, “Don't let one hand know what the other hand is doing.”

We become so much vessels, translucent vessels for the spirit that we are unaware of what’s pouring through us. There's no egoic, or personal, awareness of it. We are just pure vessels. And then we actually merge with the light that we are vessels for.

And we see that we are actually the light. And that's, to me, what the true humbleness is. There's no personal goal. There's no personal agenda. There's no personal achievement. The person is gone in that humbleness. And it’s just pure spirit, pure spirit.


Jennifer Yes. And it’s that the humility arises when we're willing to no longer see ourselves as separate, and to no longer see someone else’s concerns as separate from ours. It’s that, in that joining, comes the humility because it takes true humility to have an understanding of the oneness. You can't think you're better than, or less than, and know that you are one with.

David Yeah, exactly. That's well said. It can't be both.

Jennifer And it’s not even equal to.

David Yeah.

Jennifer It’s not better than, not less than, not equal to. You're one with. And therein lies the humility. And upon that place of humility, then it opens the door to the true perception and healing.

For me, folks who are challenged mentally with depression, with sadness, with disillusionment, to really begin to look for, where are you thinking you're better than, or less than, and begin to address that and say, “Is it even possible?”

David Yeah. True humility, I still cry at the humility. I still have the tears of joy that roll down. I remember a couple of years ago a young man wrote to me from prison.

And it was a handwritten letter. And it was so sincere. It was oozing with sincerity, page after page. I read it to this whole group of people that I'm living with. And we all were crying at this letter because it was just this sincere call for help, this sincere call for joining.

And he went from solitary confinement. He’s now still living in this community that I have in Utah. But he started off in solitary confinement in prison, and frustration, anger, despair.

And then here comes this handwritten letter in the mail to the monastery where we're all just bawling because it was just so humble. Humility was pouring through it.

And we recognized that. I think all of us can relate to that. We cry. Actually we cry when we come in the presence of it because we're just so… We feel the humbleness. And it leads to heights of happiness because it takes that to be open, to be guided and to be led.


Without that, the ego kind of abstinence, and this… It’s very stubborn. The ego is just very stubborn. It wants to be right, but this just turns it in a whole other direction.

Jennifer Yeah, that's sincerity is so touching when you reach that place, or you see someone has reached that place where, in their mind they're saying, “Take everything I would hold in place of you, God, everything that I would cherish above you, God, all false idols. Help me release them from my mind.”

And it is such a wonderful place to get to. It is unlocking great joy to get to that place where you really, in all humbleness say, “I'm not interested in what I think anymore. I'm just not interested. It doesn't serve me to think these thoughts anymore, so I can let that individuality go, that need to be different, separate, go.”

David Yeah.

Jennifer And I'm ready to join now. It’s wonderful.

David Yeah, I can feel it right now. It’s a prayer. It’s a dance. It’s a song. You get swept up in it and it’s everything, and everything else in the world just stays. You lose track of time and space. Everything that once seemed important is just dissolved away. And you feel transformed. You feel like, “Okay, this is it.”

Jennifer It’s the great relief, great relief to no longer try to keep up appearances and trying to get and get and make and all of that. You can let all of that fall away and actually accept the extraordinary, the unbelievable, ever-unfolding gift that God is.

David Yeah.

What Happens When We Label Ourselves

Jennifer So, it does take tremendous effort to deny that the kingdom is preinstalled. What comes into my mind, David, is to address some things. We were talking about this earlier today, that it’s fashionable now for people to say, “My OCD. My problem is my OCD. My OCD is mixing with my ADD and now I am TNT,” or whatever.


David That's good. I’m sure it’s how people feel when the OCD and the ADD come together.

Jennifer Oh, my goodness, you know? I do think that just right off the top just to invite people to consider not to say, “My ADD, my OCD,” or even, “My ego,” but to recognize that these are appearances.

They are not real. They are not our true identity, so let us not claim that. Let’s not say, “My depression, my problem.”

David Yeah, it’s like truly the phrase was always the paralysis of analysis. And we can say it’s really the neuroses and the psychoses of diagnoses.

It’s when we diagnose, when we try to give the cause into form, when, “Oh, this is a brain tumor,” or, “What’s the diagnosis? What caused it?” blah, blah, blah. That's what follows right away.

The problem is to find in form, in specifics. And really the problem isn’t in form, or specifics. So, already the bait has been bought. And then when you go to expert after expert and, “Oh, that's terrible. Oh, go for a second opinion,” or, “Oh, that's terrible. Go for a third opinion.”

I had a friend one time. He worked with me for years, and he was experiencing some, I guess you might say, heart palpitations. And then he went to the doctor. And the doctor diagnosed it’s something to do with his heart.

And then he didn't like the sound of that so he went for a second opinion. And he went for a third opinion. And then he called me up. And we would talk for maybe 10 minutes. And he went, “Huh, I'm just still looking outside for more opinions. And if I don't like the opinion I hear, I look for another opinion.”

And he started to see that it was the way the problem was defined. Again, outside of the mind and, here in this case, heart palpitations, those symptoms and looking for a diagnosis of what it is that's happening.

I think fibromyalgia, or whatever, they have these things that are kind of catchall diagnoses now where it’s like, “Oh, it’s got to be that. If it’s nothing else, it’s that.”


Life has got to be a cause, or a reason, and we're just starting to realize that whole line of thinking is not going to lead you to joy, and not going to lead you to healing. And it doesn't really matter the form of it when you're looking for the problem in specifics. You're just looking in the wrong place.

Jennifer So, for someone who is experiencing debilitating illness and, if they're going to be willing to open to have a true awareness that all healing is at the level of the mind, and to work with that without blame saying, “Oh,” because we hear this all the time that somebody says, “Oh, I'm sick,” or, “Something terrible happened to me,” you know? They're labeling it terrible like, “My house was burned to the ground,” or, whatever, “I got fired from my job.”

And they're saying, “I'm looking. What did I do to deserve this?” They're saying, “I'm trying to think what’s in my mind that caused this?”

And so, in a sense, yeah, there can be value in saying, “Okay, what is going on in my mind that's outpicturing this way?” But in my perception, many of the occurrences in our life are, yes, you could say that, “Oh, there's some thought that's outpicturing here,” but discovering that thought is not necessarily the fastest path to peace and harmony.

But it’s to say, “Okay, whatever cause, whatever the root cause is, I don't need to know what the root cause is. I'm interested in the healing.”

David Yeah.

Jennifer What’s going to bring me to the healing, not how did I get here, but where am I going and how am I going to get there?

David Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean that would be focusing all your energy on the forgiveness, on the release… The Holy Spirit knows what an illusion is and it just doesn't help you if you're metaphysical ghosting and you're just throwing pink paint on everything, “Oh, that's an illusion. That's an illusion. That's an illusion.”


We Let Go of Misperception of the Entire World

If you don't feel good, that's not good. You put the pink paint can away and quit throwing the pain all over the place and start to go inward, and start to desire the forgiveness, “I want the forgiveness. I want the correction.”

It’s not forgiveness the way where somebody did you wrong and you're going to make an amend in some way, or somebody’s got to make an amend.

But it’s more of letting go of a distorted misperception of the whole world. And when Jesus says in the Manual For Teachers, “What does healing cost you?” And He says, “It costs you the whole world you see, the whole world you see because you will never be, ever again, a victim. You will never again point the blaming finger. You will never again look for that source outside.”

He’s saying true healing, lasting healing comes from that turnaround in mind. And the faster we come to really realize that, the better. And I do feel like “only forgiveness heals an unforgiveness” is the fast track, not necessarily tracing all the symptoms back to this thought, or that thought, but it’s more starting to come to a deeper experience that you aren't the thinker of any of those thoughts, that those aren't your real thoughts, and that you've got to be willing to let them all go in order to have the healing, which you can see is so much different healing in mind as opposed to piecemeal healing almost like you're collecting little chains on a necklace, or a bracelet.

“And how many beads do you have? Oh, I've got 75 now.” Spirit’s not interested in 75 beads. It wants the whole necklace and you won't get the healing until you give over the whole necklace.

Jennifer Yeah, it’s interested how the ego gets into our spiritual practice and into our healing. And that whole thing of OCD and ADD and those labels, it’s just another form of separation, “Oh, this is my problem. I'm labeling it this.”

The ego mind likes to label everything. And it is about just surrendering it all, all these perceptions, all these beliefs. And there has to be the


willingness that can only really come from realizing what has true value.

Because as long as we think, “Well, I can't be happy unless I have this kind of home, or this kind of job, or this kind of spouse, or this kind of income,” or, “I can't be happy unless both my legs are working properly,” right? “I can't be happy unless both my eyes are working properly and my heart is not palpitating.”

If there's any condition to our happiness that we are believing in, then our experience is going to say, “Okay, alright. Then if that's what you believe, here it is.”

David Yep.

Jennifer Here it is. And so we delay our true happiness, the true joy that's our natural state by believing that it’s conditional.

David Yep, that's it.

Jennifer And it really is about giving the whole necklace.

David Yeah, that's where the healing occurs.

Jennifer Yeah.

David And just starting to embrace the here and now, let all things be exactly as they are, coming to this total acceptance instead of trying to flee, trying for the geographical cure, or the relationship cure, or if I change my life, it will look that way. Then I'll be happy.

It’s quite a treadmill. It’s like a spiritual treadmill of just spinning, spinning, spinning, busy, busy, busy. And then there seems to be a lot of reinforcement in the world because it’s the ego’s world.

So, “Oh, very good, very busy. That's good.” And I even have people who call and write to me. And they can't even just write a hello without opening up with an apology, “I'm so sorry. I know you're a very busy man.”

See, they've diagnosed me as a man already and they've missed the boat. But we were talking too about availability. And I'm going to use the one you were sharing today about, “Invisibly, I'm totally available, always.”


And visibly, we just have to leave that to spirit as far as answering a call and being able to physically put a voice to something, or something like that. Then that's beyond our control. That's the Holy Spirit’s call. But, “On invisibility, I'm available to everyone.” I like how you said that today.

Non-Judgment Is Key

Jennifer Well, that's it. As mystical beings, we're learning to work in the invisible, so we're always connected to all good invisibly. So, the ego will always try and convince you, “Oh, if you don't have it in your hand, or parked in your garage, or sleeping in your bed, it’s not there. You don't have it. You're lacking.”

I had one more thought and we're almost at time here, David. And it goes by so fast. Oh, my gosh. We've been talking all day, too. It’s so funny.

To me, all of this healing, whether it’s depression, OCD, ADD, whatever the label is, whatever the diagnosis is, all the healing is required of our willingness to forgive, which to me is just non-judgment.

If you're living in non-judgment then there's never anything to forgive. To me, you don't have to keep forgiving everything if you just don't allow your mind to judge it.

If your mind starts to go to judgment and you say, “Oh, wait a minute. I don't know what anything is for. I can't see through all directions of time and space, so I'm going to reserve. I'm just going to take a pass on forming an opinion, or a judgment, and labeling anything. I just don't know what anything is for.”

David Yeah.

Jennifer So, I'll just allow God to tell me what to do, where to go. And it can sound so… That's sounds insane to the ego. The ego’s going to say, “Well, who’s going to pay your rent if you're just going to wait for spirit to tell you where to go?” How do you pay your rent, David?


David Yes, well, it’s always given for us. And not knowing how you're going to pay your rent becomes more exciting than the seemingly knowing in form, which is not really so steady.

Jennifer Yeah, it’s true. It’s true. And so the miraculous healing is available for everyone. There is no one for whom it is not available. If you believe it’s not available for you, you're right.

David You're always right because what the mind desires is what the mind gets, so then you really have to take a look at what is it that I want?

Jennifer Yeah. What is it that I want and why do I want it? And then you can even relax the wanting mind and just say, “I'm willing to take on faith that I already have it. It’s preinstalled,” and the end of wanting then begins. And the beginning of having dawns in the mind, and that exploration.

And there's the healing. And it is miraculous. It is miraculous because I can remember making lists of things I wanted, because there are spiritual teachers who teach about making lists of what you want.

I know one thing that kept coming into my mind to share, David. Are you familiar with Joel S. Goldsmith?

David Oh, yes.

Jennifer Yeah, he was a great mystical teacher, was a Christian Science practitioner. And one of my favorite prayers, he talks about he says, “God, I will not make you my messenger boy. I will not ask you for things and try to get you to deliver them to me. I ask only one thing, and that is the gift of You, Yourself. That's all that I desire.”

And I think it is a beautiful prayer. It can only come from the heart. It’s not an intellectual prayer. But to really say, “I'm not going to try and make God my messenger boy anymore. I'm not going to pray for things anymore and I'm going to step into that unlimited, in the space of let me be truly helpful.”

David Yeah.

Jennifer Instead of trying to get something all the time, let me share. Let me be truly helpful, because no matter how intense your experience of OCD or


ADD or depression is, there is somebody that could use your kindness and would feel healed by it.

David Beautiful, yeah.

Jennifer Always. Look around for them. Make yourself available to be truly helpful, yeah. And the love will come pouring through you and your healing will be right there.

David Amen to that.

David’s Offerings

Jennifer It’s time here. We're going to pray out in just a moment, but before we close, you have so many free resources, David. You have such a wealth of material, years and years and years of free recordings. What’s the best way for people to access that?

David Well, I think I always go for the ones that are easiest to remember, so the couple that are coming to mind are two websites, ACIM.cc and ACIM.me. And the last one is spreaker.com which we record so many of these wonderful talks, gatherings, dialogs in all these different countries, China and different places with translators, and then they're easy to just download to your MP3 players, or put into your car and take along in some way. It’s easy to have it very accessible and to repeatedly listen to it, and pause it and go back. And that's what’s really good, so those are the ones that are coming to mind right now. They’re easy to remember.

Jennifer And it’s so true. The more you listen, the more you hear, because when you listen with the aspiration of truly hearing, you will hear the voice of your own holiness, the I Am presence, speaking through whomever you're listening to. Because that's all there is anyway.

David Yeah, it’s just you.

Jennifer Yeah, it’s just you talking to you, listening to you saying, “Wake up. Wake up. Wake up.”

I'm going to say a prayer and then we'll stay on the line for a few minutes and just share about some of the retreats that you and I have

http://acim.cc

http://acim.me

http://www.spreaker.com


coming up. We've got three retreats coming up. We'd like to share that with people.

I'm going to invite everyone to place your hand on your heart again and, even now as we're turning in, to make the decision to listen to the replay. The replays are free for 48 hours. And then there's the class tomorrow morning, the Homework Class. So, you've got two classes this week to listen to and to share with friends. So, we invite you to bring along your friends. If you have someone who is struggling with these kinds of mental issues, emotional issues, to invite them to discuss it with you and to hear something that can support them. It’s totally free.

Closing Prayer

We take this breath of love and gratitude together and we give thanks that our healing is available to us, that the infinite source and supply of all good is right where we are. It’s accessed through our loving heart.

The kingdom is within and it is available to us now, and forever, 24/7, live streaming, the entire source of good always available to us. And we're cultivating that commitment, that discipline of willingness to give thanks, to be in gratitude, to have true humility, to open our hearts and minds to the healing that is ours to have and to share.

We give thanks. And in gratitude that our healing, and our expansion, we do share with everyone. We're so grateful and so thankful for the unity and the oneness of all life. In gratitude, we let it be and so it is. Amen. Amen.

We love you and appreciate you. And we are grateful.

David Yes.

For more information about how you can join Jennifer & David on retreat,

visit the Events page on JenniferHadley.com.

http://jenniferhadley.com/speaking

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