managing soc in the black soils of russia

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Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia Russian Timiryazev State Agricultural University, Moscow Global Symposium on soil organic carbon-2017 Ivan Vasenev БЕЛ ГО РО Д О РЕЛ ЛИ П ЕЦ К Т А М БО В ВОРОНЕЖ КУРСК Мценск Новосиль Залегошь Хом утово Верховье Покрвское Змиевка О традинский Л ивны Глазуновка Елец Лебедянь Данков Лев Толстой Болхов Х оты нец Н арыш кино Ш аблыкино Крам ы Дмитриевск-Орловский Знаменка Малоорхангельск К олпны Долгое Поныри Железногорск Первоавгустовский Дмитриев-Льговский Фатеж Золотухино Хомутовка К оныш евка Щ игры Черемисиново Кш енский Ры льск Льгов Курчатов Прямицино Лю бимовка Бол.Солдатская Судж а Медвенка Солнцево Коренево Глушково Обоянь Кировский Т им Касторное Олы мский Горшечное ГубкинСтары й Оскол И вня Прохоровка Ракитное Яковлево Томаровка Борисовка Грайворон Октябрьский Ш ебекино Короча Ч ернянка Н овы й Оскол Волоконовка Валуйки Уразово Вейделевка Красногвардейское Алексеевка Чаплыгин Доброе Первомайский Кочетовка М ичуринск Тербуны Волово Хлебное У смань Добринка Грязи Рамонь Краснолесный Латная Стрелица Х охольский Нововоронежский Перелешинский Панино Анна Давыдовка Бобров Острогожск Ольховатка Россош ь Кантемировка Богучар Петропавловка Т аловая Новохоперск Поварино Борисоглебск Терновка Ш апкино Мучкапский Уварово Мордово Эртиль И нжавино Ржакса Новопокровка Знаменка Рассказово Котовск Бондари Сосновка Грязи Староюрьево Кирсанов Ум ет Дмитриевка М оршанск В ернадовка 53°20' 34°00' 52°40' 52°00' 51°20' 50°40' 34°00' 50°00' 35°00' 36°00' 37°00' 38°00' 49°20' 39°00' 40°00' 41°00' 42°00' 49°20' 50°00' 43°00' 50°40' 51°20' 52°00' 52°40' 53°20' 44°00' 54°00' 43°00' 42°00' 41°00' 40°00' 39°00' 38°00' 37°00' 36°00' 35°00' 54°00' "А грофирма Мценская" Учхозим. Калинина Заболотовский лес Горы Болото Уч."Зоринский" Стенки-Изгорья Уч. "Стрелецкий" Уч."Казацкий" ОПХ В Н И И ЗиЗП Э У ч."Букреевы Бары " Уч."Баркаловка" Парсет ООО"Горш ечное" Центрально-Черноземный регион Границы областей Центрально-Черноземного региона Объекты исследования

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Page 1: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Managing SOC in the black soils of

Russia

Russian Timiryazev State Agricultural University, Moscow

Global Symposium on soil organic carbon-2017

БЕЛГОРОД

ОРЕЛ

ЛИПЕЦК

ТАМБОВ

ВОРОНЕЖ

КУРСК

Мценск

НовосильЗалегошь

Хо мутово

Вер ховье

По крвскоеЗмиевка

Отрадинский

ЛивныГлазуновка

Елец

Лебедянь

Данков

Лев Толстой

Болхов

Хотынец

Нарышкино

Шаблыкино

Крамы

Дмитриевск-Орловский

Знаменка

Малоорх ангельск

Ко лпныДолгое

ПоныриЖелезногорск

Первоавгустовский

Дмитриев-ЛьговскийФатеж

Золотухино

Хомутовка Конышевка Щигры Черемисиново

Кшенский

Рыл ьск ЛьговКурчатов

Прямицино

Любимовка

Бол. Сол датская

Суджа

МедвенкаСолнцевоКоренево

Глушково

Обоянь

Кировский

Тим

КасторноеОлымский

Горшечное

Губкин Старый Оскол

Ивня ПрохоровкаРакитное Яковлево

Томаровка

Борисовка

ГрайворонОктябрьский

Шебекино

КорочаЧернянка

Новый Оскол

Вол оконовка

Валуйки

Уразово Вейделевка

Красногвардейско еАлексеевка

Чапл ыгин

Доброе

Первомайский

Кочетовка

Мичуринск

Тербуны

Волово

Хлебное

Усмань Добринка

Грязи

Рамонь

Краснолесный

Латная

СтрелицаХохольский

Новово ронежский

Перелешинский

Панино

Анна

ДавыдовкаБобров

Острогожск

Ольховатка

Россошь

Кантемировка

Бо гучар

Петропавловка

ТаловаяНовохоперск

Поварино

Борисоглебск

Терновка

Шапкино

МучкапскийУвар ово

Мордово

Эртиль

Инжавино

РжаксаНовопокровка

Знаменка

Расск азовоКотовск

Бондар и

СосновкаГрязи

Староюрьево

КирсановУмет

Дмитриевка

Моршанск

Вернадовка

53°20'34°00'

52°40'

52°00'

51°20'

50°40'34°00'

50°00'35°00' 36°00' 37°00'

38°00'49°20 '

39°00' 40°00' 41°00' 42°00'49°20'

50°00'

43°00'50°40'

51°20'

52°00'

52°40'

53°20'44°00'

54°00'43°00'42°00'41°00'40°00'39°00'38°0 0'37°00 '36°00'

35°00'54°00'

"Агрофирма Мценская"

Учхоз им. Калинина

Заболотовский лес

Горы Болото Уч."Зоринский"

Стенки-Изгорья

Уч. "Стрелецкий"

Уч. "Казацкий"ОПХ ВНИИЗиЗПЭ

Уч. "Букреевы Бары"

Уч."Баркаловка"

Парсет

ООО"Горшечное"

Центрально-Черноземный регион

Границы областейЦентрально-Черноземного региона

Объекты исследования

Ivan Vasenev

Page 2: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Why we need to do this especially in case of black soils and Central Chernozemic region of Russia?

• Current high variability of farming systems and agroecosystem services levels: with winter wheat yield variability from 2,5 to 7,5 t/ha within one region

• High within-field crop yield variability (40-75% of Max) due to complicated soil cover patterns resulted by aggregated soil degradation in frame of the universal land-use zonal systems application within second half of XX century

• Relatively young and changeable soil cover in agrolandscapes with n*103 years of modern natural history and n*101-2 years of modern agricultural one

• Especial attention by successful agricultural business to the best available agrotechnologies, land agroecological quality evaluation and crop yield prediction due to sharply increased input risks value in case of high inputs in farming

• Fast development of applied in RF agrotechnologies and society interest in organic farming and sustainable land-use

Page 3: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Normative forecasting SOC in the black soils

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 3

Managing SOC in the black soils

Analyzing the black soils and their SOC natural spatial-temporal variability and sustainability

Evaluating soil quality dynamics due to SOC man-made changes in the black soils

Search forecasting SOC in the black soils in the principal regions of RF

Investigating soil forming and degradation processes rates and potentials in the black soils with especial attention to their SOC

Typifying the black soils according to their SOC, current land-use and its environmental impact assessment on soil profile, regimes and processes

Page 4: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 4

Analyzing the black soils and their SOC natural spatial-temporal variability and sustainability (“RF Soil National Atlas”, 2011):

1:2.5 M Scale

Soil total area – 1595,4 million ha : Black soils – around 188 million haLuvic Chernozems + Grey-Luvic Phaeozems – 34,9 million ha Voronic and Vermic Chernozems – 11,3 million ha Vorony-Calcic Chernozems – 22,0 million ha Calcic Chernozems – 17,2 million haHaplic and Gypsic Kastanozems – 11,3 million ha …

Page 5: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 5

Analyzing the black soils and their SOC natural spatial-temporal variability and sustainability (“RF Soil National Atlas”, 2011):

Soil organic carbon content

Soil organic carbon content in A horizon

% Level

Very high

High

Average

Page 6: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 6

Analyzing the black soils and their SOC natural spatial-temporal variability and sustainability (“RF Soil National Atlas”, 2011):

Soil organic carbon stocks

Soil organic carbon stocks in 1 m:

T/ ha Level

Extremely highVery high

High

Above averageAverage

Page 7: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 7

Typifying the black soils according to their SOC, current land-use and its environmental impact assessment on soil profile, regimes and processes:

Data on humus balance in agricultural area in 1970 – 2001 (“RF Soil National Atlas”, 2011):

• Stable tendency of dehumification in arable black soils:

• SOC content in arable soils have been decreased by 4.4 – 17.1%.

Humus balance in the arable horizon

Negative with annual loss of more than 0,5 t/ha

Negative with annual loss of less than 0,5 t/ha

Positive

Page 8: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 8

Investigating soil forming and degradation processes rates and potentials in the black soils with especial attention to their SOC:

1. Bioclimatic zonal and province analysis.2. Geomorphologic regional and local typification. 3. Ecological and agroecological GIS and DB development.4. Ecological and agroecological monitoring development5. Field researches in representative plots with local controls

(native landscapes or less intensive land-use systems).6. Soil cover patterns studies within chrono- or agro-secuences. 7. The Soil Cover Patterns investigation by the

field catenas, with especial attention to: (a) their position within meso-relief;

(b) their micro-relief development; (c) soil profile successions; (d) soil regimes changes;

(e) soil matrix transformations;

(e) lateral, soil-forming and degradation

processes rates within SCP;

(f) potentials of soil profiles, functions

and services future development.

0

20

40

60

80

100

120

140g kg-1

Principal Methodology:

Page 9: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Soil Agrogenic Successions at the Central Chernozemic Region of Russia

БЛ

СЛ

ЧОП

ЧВ

ЧТ

ЧТК,

Agrogenicsuccession

Agrogenic-erosion

succession

succession

succession

Agrogenic-irrigation

Agrogenic-amelioration

CaCO3

BrLPhS

GrLF

Ch-C

Ch-V

Ch-V-C

Ch-L

Page 10: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Evaluation Logistic functions → DSS development

Page 11: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

THE MAIN SOIL NATURAL REFERENCE OBJECTS IN THE CENTRAL CHERNOZEMIC RESERVE

Non-Mowed Steppe (NMS)

Pasture (PS)

5 year periodically Mowed Steppe

(P5MS)

Fallow (FL)

Forest (FS)10 year periodically

mowed steppe (P10MS)

Page 12: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

0

20

40

60

80

100

120

140g kg-1

Humus (SOM) dynamics in Chernozems topsoil with different land-use determines the GHG emission in agrolandscapes

old residual arable lands

rich cultivated arable lands

intensive pastures

temporary pasture, old idle lands

forest, forest-lines

lands with light texture

ChM ChP ChOChTChL

Root CO2 emission

Microbial CO2 emission

Control

Page 13: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Erosion as principal factor of microrelief and soil C dynamics (→Chernozems dehumification and overconsolidation ):

11

7

5

3

1

0

А

В6,2 t/ha

17,7 t/ha

1-st stage 2-nd stage 3-d stage 4-th stage

C, %

g

>33% lands have been eroded at the CChR of Russia

Page 14: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 14

Typifying the black soils according to their SOC, current land-use and its environmental impact assessment on soil profile, regimes and processes

IRGAC02 fluxes

Page 15: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Soil CO2 emission in representative plots of cutted steppe (A), virgin steppe (B), black arable land (C) and

pasture (D), g C m-2 d-1

28,72

22,06

18,46

24,62

5,13

17,95

0,000

5,000

10,000

15,000

20,000

25,000

30,000

35,000

12.06.2012 26.06.2012 10.07.2012 24.07.2012

D

C

B

A

Agrogenic changes of Soil Cover Patterns as factor of SOC stocks and CO2 emission dynamics

Page 16: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 16

Investigating soil forming and degradation processes rates and potentials in the black soils with especial attention to their SOC:

Processes Parameter Processes Rates in Successions:

Agrogenic Agrogenic-erosion

Agrogenic-irrigation

Agrogenic-ameliorat.

Erosion А+АВ, sm y-1 0,1-0,3 0,3-3,0 0,3-1,2 0,5-1,0 Dehumification Humus - g kg-1 y-1 0,2-1,0 0,3-1,3 0,3-0,5 0,3-1,0 Humification Humus - g kg-1 y-1 0,1-0,3 - 0,1-0,4 0,1-0,5 Overconsolidation Bulk density -g sm-3y-1 0,01-0,02 0,01-0,05 0,01-0,06 0,01-0,03 Disaggregation agregates 10-0,25

mm, g kg-1 y-1 1-10 1-18 10-25 8-12

Aggregation 1-10 1-5 1-5 1-5 Season cementation Crust , sm y-1 0,1-1,0 0,1-2,0

Leaching CaCO3 - kg sm m-2y-1 0,1-0,3 0,3-1 1-150 1-30 Carbonization CaCO3 - g kg-1 y-1 0,3-1 0,3-1,5 0,5-3,0 Acidification рН y-1 0,01-0,1 0,03-0,1 0,05-0,13 0,03-0,1 Alkalization рН y-1 0,01-0,03 0,05-0,07 0,01-0,03 Na-Salinization Na+ mg kg-1 y-1 5-18

Soil Forming and Degradation Processes Rates in Agrogenic Successions of Black Soils (Chernozems and Grey-Luvic Phaeozems)

Page 17: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 17

Investigating soil forming and degradation processes rates and potentials in the black soils with especial attention to their SOC:

• All cumulative functions in Black soils were consistently higher than in Podzoluvisols

--- - Moscow field with Podzoluvisols

– - Pristen field with Chernozems

NEE, Reco, GPP cumulatives

Page 18: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 18

Investigating soil forming and degradation processes rates and potentials in the black soils with especial attention to their SOC:

GPP shifted at the seeds time (0 – point) for EC station in Moscow (green triangles) and station in Kursk (blue diamonds). Solid lines represent 7-day running mean values for station in Moscow (the red line) and for station in Kursk (black line). Vertical lines show the conventional boundaries of the stages of crop development: 0 – seeds, 1- germination, 2 – sprouting, 3- tillering, 4 - leaf tube formation, 5 – milky ripeness, 6- wax ripeness, 7- complete ripeness, 8- harvest.

Gross Plant Production, aligned by seeding date (LAMP data)

Page 19: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Soil cover patterns variability as factor of A+AB horizons depth and SOC stocks:

A) In case of Grey-Luvic Phaeozems

B) In case of Chernozems

Black soil cover patterns and SOC within-field variability due to paleo-microrelief and agrogenic plough erosion

Soil Cover Patterns at the Key Plots with Luvic and Voronic Chernozems Field, Key plots

Area, ha Slopes*

Soils ( 1:10 000

Map)

Soil Cover Patterns (1:5000 & 1:2000 -

Maps)

А+АВ Depth,

cm

Carbonates Depth,

cm

Field -1 53 0 -8 (0 -3 ) ChТIII ChL ChL

III, ChТII, ChТC

III, ChТ

IY, ChL II 70 - 130 15 - 100

KP -1.1 4 0 -3 (0 -1 ) ChТ

III ChТIII, ChТCII, ChL III,

ChL II 55 - 100 0 - 105

KP -1.2 4 3 -8 (3 - 5 ) ChL

ChТII, ChТC

II, ChL , ChТ 42 - 78 0 - 110

Field -2 59 0 -8 (1 -5 )

ChТII ChТ

ChТ

ChТIY, ChL

III, ChТCIY,

ChТCIII, ChТC

II 60 - 180 15 - 120

KP -2.1 4 0 -8 (3 -5 )

ChТIY ChТ

III, ChL III, ChТC

IY, ChL IY, ChТII 70 - 195 20 - 150

* Dominated slopes.

Page 20: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Crop Yield Variability within key Fields & Plots (Experimental Station, Central Chernozemic Region)

# Key Plot (KP) or Field

Area, ha

Crop Year Weather

Yield, dt/ha

KP -1.1 4 Barley 1996,

2000,

2004

normal 23-59KP-1.2 4 Barley 15-64

Field 1 53 Barley 2002,

2005

dry 23-63Sugar Beat 200-590

KP-2.1 4 Winter Wheat 1998 dry 20-65Field 2 59 Sugar Beat 1999 normal 242-484

2003 normal 170-546Barley 2000 normal 21-50

Pea (green food) 2001 normal 100-300Winter Wheat 2002 dry 38-70

Field 3 53 Barley 1999 normal 25-43Pea (grain) 22-44

Winter Wheat 22-34

Page 21: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Roughness of regression regularities and essential uncertainty of normative predictions

Current agroecological problem analysis

Soil texture

Soil texture factor for fertilizing doze N P K

N P KSoil erosion factor for fertilizing

doze Soil erosion

Barley yield, dt/ha

Page 22: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

P2О5>250Yield - 52.5

P2О5<170Yield - 45.9

K2О >100Yield - 48.5

K2О<90Yield - 43.2

Barley Yield Variability at the

slope, dt ha-1

3<Slope<5Yield - 46.2

1<Slope<3Yield- 51.0

8<Slope>9Yield - 32.7

5<Slope<8Yield - 38.6

ChYield - 46.1

ChYield - 53.4

ChLYield - 50.1

ChVYield - 44.1

ChLYield - 58.9

ChVYield - 48.1

W>28%Yield - 49.8

W<23%Yield - 38.4

Crop yield variability as factor of C sequestration potential assessment

in case of Luvic and Vermic Chernozems

Page 23: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 23

Evaluating soil quality dynamics due to SOC man-made changes in black soils:Within-field winter wheat yield variability due to Luvic and Vermic

Chernozems agrogenic changes ……………

P2О5>250Yield - 52.5

P2О5<170Yield - 45.9

K2О >100Yield - 48.5

K2О<90Yield - 43.2

Wheat Yield Variability at the

slope

3<Slope<5Yield - 46.2

1<Slope<3Yield- 51.0

8<Slope>9Yield - 32.7

5<Slope<8Yield - 38.6

ChYield - 46.1

ChYield - 53.4

ChLYield - 50.1

ChVYield - 44.1

ChLYield - 58.9

ChVYield - 48.1

W>28%Yield - 49.8

W<23%Yield - 38.4

Page 24: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Inefficient geostatistical analysis of agroecological problems within very heterogeneous soil and

landscape areas Soil Cover Patterns at the

Experimental Station (4500 ha)

Page 25: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Deficiency of zone standard data and active information retrieval system

Current agroecological problem analysis

Winter wheat

N

N

P

P

K

K

Available nutrient recoupment by crop yield, dt/ha per mg/kg

Soil type

NPK usage coefficients

Manure in 1-st year

Mineral fertilizing in 2-nd year

Manure in 2-nd yearMineral fertilizing in 1-st year

Page 26: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 26

Managing adaptive to landscape land-use and SOC in the black soils:

Надежда на будущее – 5 Традиции российской научной школыFunctional evaluation of soil cover patterns

Evaluation of agro-ecological problems within field scale, including

SOC degradation

Quantitative assessment of limiting factors of soil fertility, crop yield, ecosystem services,

farming profits

Annual planning of crop distribution, farming systems and technology

applications

Meso-relief parameters

Land agroecological passport of the farm

field

Soil cover patterns

Soil potential fertility principal

parameters

Potential crop yield prediction

mapping

SOC and available nutrients content

in the soil

IT modules for farming

technologies agro-ecological

optimizing in the concrete fieldAgroecological

assessment of the relief and precursors

Agroecological assessment of the soil cover patterns

Quantitative assess-ment of

the fertility limiting factors

Crop yield calculation in

concrete PAR and soil-ecological state

Crop yield calculation in field

with available nutrient limitations

Page 27: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 27

Managing SOC in the black soils: Agroecological DSS development on best available agrotechnologies including manuring and fertilizing

Manuring and Fertilizing

programming

Economical predictions

Page 28: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

SOC Managing – Normative Forecasting – LQ Evaluating – Search Forecasting – SF&DP – Soil Typifying – STV Analyzing 28

Managing SOC in the black soils:

базового агрогеоинфор-

мационного обеспечения к

условиям конкретного

района и хозяйства ЦЧР.

Soil potential fertility principal

parameters

Potential crop yield prediction

mapping

SOC and available nutrients

content in the soil

Quantitative assessment of limiting factors of soil fertility, crop yield,

ecosystem services, farming profits

Annual planning of crop distribution, farming systems and

technology applications

Crop yield and SOC calculation

in field with available nutrient

limitations

Crop yield and SOC calculation in concrete PAR and

soil-ecological state

Quantitative assess-ment of

the fertility limiting factors

Annual planning of the within-field varied fertilizing

Annual planning of crop rotation and rational distribution in the

farm

Fertilizing efficiency increasing in 20-25%

Farming profitability increasing in 10-15%

Sharp decreasing of the environmental risks

Page 29: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

5-10% Farms

15-20% Farms

30-40% Farms

20-30% Farms

In 5 years Crop Y increase in 1,5-2 times : Sugar Beet - 35→70 t/ha, Winter Wheat - 5 → 7 t/ha

Dissemination of results (agroecological models, BAAT and DSS)

Page 30: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

Conclusions1. The carried out long-term researches of representative natural and rural landscapes gave us the regional multi-factorial matrix of soil cover patterns (SCP) with different land-use practices, environmental conditions , SOC dynamics & sequestration potential.

2.The validation and ranging of the limiting factors of SCP dynamics and development helped us to understand better the principal regional-typological forms of SCP, SFP and SOC dynamics & sequestration potential too.

3.The essential amplification of the degradation processes of erosion, dehumification and out-of-balance CO2 emission, disaggregation and overcompaction is result of violation of ecologically sound land-use systems and SOC traditional balances.

4. Due to long-term out-of-balance land-use Russian black soils begin to lose not only their unique natural features (about 1 m of humus horizon, 4-7% of Corg), but traditional soil cover patterns, quality of ecosystem services and level of agroecological functions.

5. Quantitative analysis of land degradation processes in parameters of SOC dynamics help us in developing the different-scale projects of ecologically sound rural land-use, taking into attention not only economical benefits but agroecological functions too .

Page 31: Managing SOC in the black soils of Russia

We must work in SOC management together!

Problems number is huge… We have a lot of general issues…

The World is too small… IT join us…

Together we can do more…