Martin Parr still proves controversialPause for thought: Martin Parr Greg Hobson, Curator at the National Media Museum, talks to Martin and Susie Parr

Shona Wall takes notes of Martin and Susie Parr In Conversation

A moment of light relief for Martin and Susie Parr

TAKING short-hand notes can be a curious affair.

Sometimes a person will say something instantly memorable. Other times, you read the notes and think, “I can’t remember them saying that.”Taking an accurate note of what Martin Parr says is difficult. Probably one of the best-known photographers in the world, he talks quickly and uses long sentences. During an In Conversation event at the National Media Museum in Bradford, Martin was speaking with his wife, author Susie Parr, and curator Greg Hobson. I could record what Susie and Greg said. But Martin Parr was challenging.It felt important to get it right. We were among the privileged few to get tickets. The event sold out quickly, and the Cubby Broccoli Cinema was filled to capacity. There was a certain frisson among the audience. The muse-um staff asked us not to be shy about sitting next to strangers,

as there would be no spare seats. To everyone here, Martin Parr was a big name. Some were full of hero worship. The In Conversation event co-incided with Martin Parr’s work for the exhibition, Only In Eng-land, currently at the media mu-seum. The exhibition has three sections. One is of previously known work by iconic photog-rapher Tony Ray-Jones, whom Martin credits as an inspiration. Another is a selection made by Martin from the Ray-Jones archive. The final section

featured a project taken by Martin in the 1970s at Hebden Bridge in Yorkshire, known as The Non-Conformists and now published in book form by Aperture. The Only In England exhibition will remain at the National Media Museum until June 29, 2014.More of Martin’s work is also featured in a dedication to Brit-ish manufacturers, Open For Business, at the museum until May 5.The conversation began with an introduction by curator Greg

on why he had asked Martin to “bring Tony Ray-Jones’s work to life” by having him look through 5000 contact sheets, a task that took him only five days. There was praise for Ray-Jones’s ability to compose and his “visceral” feel for his subject.The conversation moved to the Non-Conformists and how Martin and Susie were drawn to document traditions then in decline. Their record included a chapel at Crimsworth Dean, which had about 10 regulars.They won the trust of this tiny

congregation by attending regu-larly, and even became involved in helping out with the Sunday School.This led to an expectation that they would help run the chapel. It then became clear there had been a misunderstanding.It was also the point that my shorthand note-taking switched to autopilot. I come from a rural community, and my mother attends a church about that size. I know what their reaction would have been if Martin and Susie Parr had come regularly to their worship. I could imagine my mother’s reaction especially. I kept wondering exactly what was said between them, and how this tiny congregation coped afterwards. My mother would not have understood. She would have felt her faith had been used and violated.

Next, I kept wondering if this particular misun-derstanding was already

in the public domain or whether it had only emerged now, so soon after the release of their book. Greg, Martin and Susie spoke as though it was already common knowledge, but I hadn’t heard of it before.Some things I absorbed. I was impressed they moved house

several times because of Susie’s training and career as a speech therapist. I thought that an interesting aspect of their rela-tionship. He received a student’s admission that her tutor was “always banging on about him” with easy charm. In fact, it seemed his most relaxed mo-ment during the whole event. But the one subject Susie and Martin Parr kept referring to was controversy. It wasn’t true that Martin pointed fingers at people and laughed. There was more to it than that. Vietnam war photographer Philip Jones Griffiths had once written an open letter headed: “Why Martin Parr should not become a Magnum photographer.” Philip Jones Griffiths has since died, and Martin announced to the event that he is to be the new president of Magnum. Of the public reaction to The Last Resort, featuring photographs taken at New Brighton, on the Wirral, he said: “The London reaction was very good for me. I didn’t court controversy. It just happened.”Martin described his most recent project, working with arts group Multistory, record-ing community life in the Black Country. He said he loved engaging with people.As it happened, Stew, Jess and

I came face to face with Martin much later, walking alone in a corridor and heading for the lift. We asked if he still kept in touch with Daniel Meadows, one of his contemporaries at Manches-ter Polytechnic. We interviewed Daniel last year and he is one of the most inspirational people we have ever met.

“Sometimes,” replied Martin. He looked tired and desperate to be off-duty and in fairness he had never looked truly comfortable meeting the public.“Have you finished your book signing now?”“Yes.” With that, it was a smart move to the lift and a swish shut of its doors. He clearly wasn’t in the mood to do any more en-gaging with people that day. We understood, but it was comical.Much later, Stew asked me what I had thought of Martin Parr?

“If the Parrs had treated my mother like that she would have felt her faith had been used and

violated”

by Shona WallPhotographs: Stewart Wall

www.ContemporaryTimes.net

“He seemed to spend a lot of time telling us he was contro-versial and not much about why he likes taking photographs.”I could tell Stew was surprised by my reply. He pointed out that at most talks we have attended, photographers have put on a slide show and revealed the backstory of certain images as they appeared. Or they would say why they liked them. Their enthusiasm was infectious. But the National Media Museum took charge of screen-ing Martin’s images. Martin and Susie had sat with their backs to them. This could explain why they seemed detached.When I looked at Stew’s contact strip, I could identify another reason why Martin might have seemed detached. Susie has an expressive face. Stew has caught photographs of her smiling, blinking, moving her hands while talking, looking down, looking away. But Martin looks almost identical in every frame. I was even more surprised when I read through my shorthand notes. In fact, Martin came over better when I studied what he had actually said, yet I had almost no memory of him say-ing them.The disparity between my initial impression and the reality is a puzzle that I’m still pondering.

‘Photography is like bird-watching’Martin and Susie Parr talk with museum curator

In Conversation: Martin and Susie Parr at the National Media Museum in Bradford

Martin’s photographs were projected on a screen behind him during the event

THE CUBBY Broccoli Cinema in Bradford

was filled to capac-ity when Greg Hobson, Curator of Photography for the National Media Museum, was In Conver-sation with Martin and Susie Parr.The talk opened with details of a book signing outside Gallery 2 after the In Conversation event.Greg asked Martin why the Non-Conformists had recently been published as a book by Aperture.Martin: The last time we came to Crimsworth Dean we said we must get this book out. At the time I tried to get it published no-one would look at it. Aperture would publish the book but initially it was not possible to put the show on in Bradford.

Martin suggested Greg explain why they had come to Bradford now.Greg: In our archives of work by Tony Ray-Jones, we had 5000 contact sheets. I thought it would be interesting to have Martin look at the work and bring them together in an exhibition. I’ve been a fan of both for a long time and I thought it would bring Tony Ray-Jones’s work to life by hav-ing Martin Parr look at them.Martin: The whole process took me five days. I came across the pictures we know and love. I saw how (he would) find the right image. He had a sharp eye and an ability to compose a picture. Tony Ray-Jones had a visceral feel for his subject. He was brilliant at filling the spaces

between the subjects, which is why his work was so refreshing and different. He thought the gaps between things were also important.Martin: I got to learn about him because Bill Jay of Creative Camera would go to anyone who would have him (and came to Manchester Polytechnic). We sat throughout open-mouthed (and thought): Wow! This work is really good.Martin: I went to the same Derby Day that Tony Ray-Jones went to. I may have seen him there but I didn’t actually meet him.Martin: After leaving Manches-ter Poly I moved to Hebden Bridge and with three or four people set up Albert St work-shop. We were trying to capture aspects of this northern town. I was really taken with the sense of community there. I wanted to follow chapel life and other small strands of social strata.Susie: We were interested in things that were traditional but in decline. We homed in on those things. With Crimsworth Dean there were maybe 10 regulars in the congregation. It was really like stepping back an age. They are all dead now, but we felt really lucky to meet peo-ple from a previous generation.Greg: How did you approach them?Susie: Just a case of going back and going back. The fact that we kept going back enabled people to trust us. With Sarah and Charlie, we became friendly with them. When they were snowed in we went up and

helped them. They were snowed in for weeks. Unfortunately the congregation took our interest as a sign we were going to carry on the chapel.

Greg: You almost ran the Sun-day School, didn’t you?Susie: Well, we didn’t do any-thing religious. We did things like puppet shows and nature

walks. There was one particular person who ran it, with five or six kids there, and there was this, “Who’s going to do this if she stops?”

Martin: It added to the impres-sion we were going to do this (forever). Stanley Greenwood was a church elder. He asked, “Are you going to be taking over the chapel?” Martin: (We were especially interested in) the anniversary service. That weekend Charlie and Sarah put curtains up at their farm just for the weekend. They brought out special hats and rugs. This to us was abso-lutely unbelievable.Susie: They lived very simply, in threadbare homes, so to see these special things coming out was amazing.

Greg pointed out that Susie and Martin had made some tape recordings reflecting life at the chapel, though apologies were made for the poor sound qual-ity. The first was of a gentleman describing going to Charlie and Sarah’s house at the anniversary weekend.(Heavy Yorkshire accent) There was this rug. Nobody stepped on it so I didn’t either. They only put curtains up for the anniver-sary so then they last forever. “They got a new bathroom in.

I could hear her saying so to Charlie, so I said could I use the bathroom? It was scrubbed beautifully clean. There was not a mirror or anything on the walls. Well, with a face like Charlie’s, you don’t want a mirror. There was a beautiful

tea with pies and Jersey milk and makeshift curtains. It was primitive but we had a right good time, with supper laid out on a platform. He is 100% is Charlie. Really good.” The other tape was the congre-gation singing Onward Chris-tian Soldiers. Tunefully.Martin: The guy (who was speaking on the tape) was a lay preacher who ran a restaurant. He was known for making sherry trifle in washing up bowls. He was a great raconteur

and a wonderful preacher. He appreciated all the characters. Stanley had a bit more gravitas.Martin: The chapel was sold in 2002 and (many of the former church and farm buildings are) now inhabited by TV executives and accountants. It shows the

very nature of now things have moved on. It was great to hear the tapes. I am glad we did them despite the poor quality.Martin: I then went on to be a colour photographer. I am still interested in the whole idea of documentary. (With the work I am doing on the) Black Country project, the documen-tation techniques are far more sophisticated. Multistory have made an archive box (which stores other work not put on

Report: Shona WallPhotographs: Stewart Wall

www.contemporarytimes.net

“For the anniversary weekend they would bring out special

hats, rugs and curtains, just for the weekend. This to us was

absolutely unbelievable”

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A composite picture showing Martin and Susie Parr at the National Media Museum with the images from The Non-Conformists on display behind them Composite picture by Stewart Wall

Entranced: the audience listens carefully to Martin Parr

display) and they are now send-ing people out professionally. (They are) also making a film to complement the work I am do-ing. The way I document things is far more sophisticated now.Martin: (For the Non- Conformists book,) the original writing that Susie did laid for 30 years in a plastic folder.Martin: (With the Black Country project) I have become a community photographer again. (It’s partly) celebrating that whole idea of a community. We made a film about a Black Country pigeon fancier who is selling to people in Mongolia, where there are 1000 members in one particular club. People win BMWs in China for pigeon fancying. Here you might win a washing machine.The Parrs also mentioned a sweet factory which Martin described as “equally as charm-ingly feudal and archaeic”Susie: She does all the accounts in her head.

Greg: Have you left black and white completely behind now?Martin: The Last Resort in New Brighton came about because Susie went to study speech ther-apy at college near there. (She was sponsored by an Irish body and we went to live in Ireland because the terms of the spon-sorship meant) she was meant to work as a speech therapist in Ireland for a number of years.Susie: (referring to the misun-derstanding with the chapel at Grimsworth Dean) (Looking at that) whole experience, I won-der if that made you become more detached.Martin: However close you are

to some things you are never part of it. Despite this reputa-tion as a cynical photographer, I really like people. One of the things I like is a narrative and discussions are so engaging. The conversations are so

entertaining. That whole busi-ness of engaging with people is something that I really like. Martin: I did the whole thing on the community in Ireland when I started realising the po-tential of capturing modern life. In the Black Country project we went to Tesco and the Merry Hill shopping centre (to make sure we covered all aspects of the community) I have no desire to do a black and white Irish project again. There is only a certain amount of years I’ve got in me before I slow down and grind to a halt so I keep trying to do as much as I can. Martin:When I started doing colour (at New Brighton) it was a critique on society. I took on some palette but slightly twisted it.Martin: Thatcher was a good trigger for photographers to get

‘You must want to take that picture’angry. Many of the farms we documented became derelict and so on.Greg asked Susie how she became involved in the Non-Conformists project.Susie: I had grown up near London and felt quite alienated in the suburban environment. I was not making connec-tions. I went to Manchester to study English Lit and thought that Martin’s photographs on June Street were very powerful and we talked about working together, so I went to Hebden Bridge. It was not like anything I had before and I wanted to en-gage in it. Like Martin changed his work after we left Hebden Bridge, I decided I didn’t want to write about people. I wanted to do something myself so that was why I became a speech therapist.

Martin made a joke that Susie was now compiling a book called: Martin Parr – the Truth and Susie said she was “still gathering”.Questions were taken from the

floor at this point. Someone asked what Martin thought of social media, especially Face-book and Instagram.Martin: I am delighted at the way it has taken off. It is the

most democratic process in the world. I think it is very good thing these new channels exist. Plus, other photographers are my biggest customers (and it is a way of getting work seen).

I welcome everything. I’m too old to Instagram. I’m even too old to tweet. Someone runs my Facebook site for me but I keep the blog up to date.A question was asked: Is Martin

“Despite this reputation as a cynical photographer, I really

like people. The whole business of engaging

with people is something that I really like”

laughing at people or laughing with people?Martin: It is difficult to know where the insinuations about me came from. Everyone in Liverpool knows exactly what New Brighton is like and (an exhibition there gained no at-tention). The London reaction was very good for me. I didn’t court controversy. It just hap-pened. (Sometimes there can be) a sense of mischief. With New Brighton, its very success destroys what people have come to see. It is impossible to show the whole picture. Subjectivity is essentially part of what makes a photographer. Everyone wants real life to be so perfect.Susie: It is really just a lazy ar-gument. It’s actually much more subtle than that. Martin is not just standing up pointing the finger and laughing.

Greg: One particular reviewer wrote something biting about Martin’s work. He has taken a representation of all classes, but sometimes it has an impact on essentially a small community.Martin: (There was that thing with) Philip Jones Griffiths (calling me) Mrs Thatcher’s fa-vourite photographer. I had met Philip at a workshop, liked him and got on very well with him. When I changed to colour and joined Magnum it all went to froth. I have, and am very proud of, a copy of an open letter: “Why Martin Parr Should Not Become A Magnum Photogra-pher.” He has passed away now, sadly. But now I am to be the president of Magnum.Susie: Philip was interested in the humanist principles of

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Magnum. I think you are humanist and use humanist principles if you love to talk to people. It’s not so much about how you get on with people. It’s about values.A question was asked from the audience about Martin’s book about the playas of Mexico, and whether it was insulting to have it badly printed.Martin: I purposely had a bad design and had it badly printed. (It was a case of) how do you do something that is different and make it into a narrative form? So, to try to make the book come alive I had it badly printed to make it work, and it does work. I was making a mes-sage come across in how it was produced.A question was asked about how photographers approach work and gain payment for it.Martin: In the Black Country no-one knows me from Adam. This is a very unusual audi-ence. Most people have no idea who I am. Most great photos have been done through self-financed work. Photographers have to be more cunning, but there is now a bigger market place where you can sell prints. Twenty years ago photographers joining Magnum were photo-journalists. Photographers have different ways of raising money now. We have Kickstarter now. Thirty years ago we didn’t have the internet and these platforms for getting the work out.Martin was asked how he regarded recent moves in advertising.Martin: People are all so bored with that sheen and gloss of propaganda so I welcome a direction to go to more authen-ticity. Most people don’t do it very well. We are very bad at photographing our own lives. Every time you decorate your house I think you should photograph it but most people don’t think to do that.Susie: Well, you didn’t do that. (Laughter in audience)Martin was asked about his attraction to kitsch.

Martin: I like clichés and prejudices and that is why I like kitsch. I must have issues deeply rooted to childhood problems and I can now articulate it.(There was mention of Space Dogs, Saddam Hussein’s watches, and Osama Bin Laden sweets)Martin: Susie’s used to the parcels that keep coming from Ebay.Susie: Yes.Martin was asked if he did other types of photography.

Martin: I like document-ing contemporary life. I did portraits for the Black Country project but everything else just happens. I take a lot of photos and reject most of them. It’s al-ways a slight mystery as to how things work.Martin: All the portraits in the Black Country … everyone automatically got a print. Some don’t like that I didn’t get people to smile. I wanted to make it different from a Facebook picture. But I always get a great

benefit from showing them to the subjects in the photos.Someone asked Martin what work he thought Tony Ray-Jones would be doing if were he still alive?Martin: I think he would have been a film-maker. He would have looked more to doing film.Greg: I agree. You can see he had a particular eye for a narrative and he was absolutely passionate about film. He would sit in his flat and look at films, sometimes over and over again

looking for particular aspects.Martin was asked about other influences. He cited Creative Camera and Robert Frank’s book, The Americans.Martin: Frank was vilified for low technical quality but people came to realise the subject was more important.A member of the audience asked Martin if wealthy people had threatened him with legal action.Martin: I had a show in Dubai and a lady said, unless you

take that picture down you will be hearing from my solicitor. We took it down. It’s not only wealthy people either.Martin was asked if he could detect his influence over other photographers.Martin: I am sometimes aware of it but don’t spend a lot of time looking. Most of the time I’m just looking forward to my next thing.Someone asked what Martin thought of selfies.Martin: The selfie is only a

couple of years old. When I do signings people ask for a selfie and generally I go along with it – but not today. Today is a selfie free Saturday.A student started to describe how her tutor was “always banging – talking about Martin Parr to her study group” -Martin (laughing): “Always banging on! I know.”The student described how there was a lack of interest among her fellow students about going

to see exhibitions. Why bother when you can see it online? Out of about 30 students, only six went to exhibitions. What did he think about this new genera-tion?Martin: If they don’t want to see exhibitions, I am surprised they don’t want to and disappointed. Tell your 24 colleagues: get your arse out on the bus and come and see the show.

Another member of the audience disagreed and said photographic shows had never been so popular.Greg: I do portfolio views here and I can tell which people are really engaged with photogra-phy and can see the ones who know where their work sits in the world of photography. People who don’t go and see shows aren’t ever going to do good work. These people who don’t go will probably get their degrees but will probably not become photographers.Martin was asked about how to take good street photography and whether people worried about it appearing online.Martin: Instagram gets more people engaged with photog-raphy. You have to have a very clear idea about what you want

‘Some of best works are self-funded’to say about your subject and if you don’t you probably won’t make very good photographs. You’ve got to want to take that pic. This difference sorts out the good from the also-rans.Susie: Martin just sits and stands for a long, long time, like a birdwatcher.Martin: My father was into birdwatching. I used to go with him to Hersham Sewage Works every Saturday. I had to go as there was nowhere else to go.

Susie: “Sometimes, Martin, you line up a photograph but when you press the shutter you are looking

at someone else.” Martin: “Yes. I’m already thinking

about the next thing.”My father used to catch birds in nets and ring them. Really, a photographer is just a spotter or a collector, trying to make sense of what is going on out there. Facebook is just another way of organising yourself.Greg: Two people who recognised themselves in photographs shown here had no recollection of a photographer being there.Martin: I don’t look at people and feel guilty. You might feel guilty. You might look guilty, but I just think, “that’s another one in the bag.”Susie: Sometimes, Martin, you line up a photograph but when you press the shutter you are looking at someone else.Martin: Yes. I’m already think-ing about the next thing.Martin was asked about if Egglestone had a big influence on him.Martin: He probably influenced me much later. I bought a copy of his book, but his influence was not as profound as others from the Sixties.l NB: These notes are not a verbatim record of Martin and Susie Parr In Conversation, but the Contemporary Times has tried to make it an honest account.

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Back to back: On the left is Sarah Hannah Greenwood at home. On the right: Sarah Hannah Greenwood dresses up for the anniversary service