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Mary Ellen Mark - The Photo Essay

INTERVIEW

You've been described as both a documentary photographer and a photojournalist. Do you make adistinction between the two?

I have never known the difference between one and the other. To me a documentary photographer and aphotojournalist are pretty much the same thing. If I have to make a distinction, I'm more a documentaryphotographer--I don't think of myself as a photo-essayist in the sense that I always consider a magazine layout whenI'm working. To be honest with you, I always try to think of the specific pictures. What's important to me is to makestrong, individual pictures. When I look at a documentary photographer or photojournalist whose work I really love--somebody like Eugene Smith--it's because the images are single images. I think of his great picture stories as storieswhere the images really stood by themselves. InLife's "Country Doctor," for example, you remember each image: the doctor drinking the cup of coffee, the childgetting his head sewn. They weren't only linking images--each one was strong, and each can stand alone. I think ingreat magazine or newspaper photography every picture can stand on its own; it doesn't need the other pictures tosupport it, to tell a story.

Why did you choose to do photojournalism?

It wasn't a choice, it was just what I wanted to do. When I became interested in photography, which was in 1963, Ididn't think: "Should I do still-life photography? Should I be a landscape photographer? Or should I do commercialwork?" I knew that I wanted to photograph people and I wanted to do documentary essays on social situations.

What was the first story that you did that made you feel you were a professional photographer?

There were a couple, but my first really big break was from Pat Carbine at Look magazine, and it's interesting that itwas from a woman. At that time there weren't so many women in this field, and she met me and she trusted me, andgave me two assignments. One was photographing on the set of Satyricon--I got to photograph Fellini, which wasvery interesting. The film was visually amazing, and he was great. After that I suggested another story, on drugaddicts and junkies in London. It's funny because I shot it predominantly in black and white, but on the last day I shota couple of rolls of color, and they ended up using the color pictures. Anyway it was a very solid story--I still countsome of my black-and-white pictures taken on this assignment as being strong statements about drug addiction.

How do your assignments come to you? Do you ever go to an editor or an art director with your own ideasfor stories, or do they usually call you and commission you to do a piece?

I think it works both ways. I'd say it is about fifty-fifty. The story on the junkies in London was my idea, but Fellini wasLook's idea. I very much wanted to go to Ethiopia, but the idea for the assignment was John Loengard's at Life. Hegave me the opportunity to go there. "The Prostitutes of Bombay" was my idea. It varies but I'm still constantlyworking on ideas. I even hire people to research ideas for me, and I'm always looking for specific things that I want todo. There are themes that are visually interesting to me. I don't want to do the kind of photo essay anymore that isn'tgoing to bring me images that add to my work as a whole. That's always something I have in the back of my mind; I'vealways tried to do that, and now even more so. I want to make the magazine work I do, the documentary work I do,add up to something. At the end of my life I want to look back at what I've done and say, "This hasn't been for nothing."I don't want my work to be empty; I want the magazine work to help bring about a body of work. I consider my longer

documentary magazine assignments as grants that allow me to do the work I care about. Now it's harder. Magazinesdon't necessarily want those kinds of stories any more. So it is very difficult.

How much control does an assignment editor or art director exercise over what you do?

There are two stages. There's the photo editor, who usually gives you the assignment, and the art director, whodesigns the layout. A good photo editor will edit the take with you; he will trust your editing and you'll have a positiveworking relationship. But then when you get to the design stage, you have no control. I don't know of anyphotographer who has control over the design, and the way a layout is done can really change the effect of thephotographs. It's difficult, and sometimes upsetting, but I've learned to accept it.

Why do you think that photographers of your caliber and reputation have so little control over this? Is adesigner in effect radically changing what you're saying?

I hate it when people crop photographs. Whenever I'm teaching a workshop or working with students I always say,"You must crop in your camera, not afterwards." I've always been really careful when I make a frame--I'm not sayingevery frame I do is perfect, but if I select a frame for a magazine, I'm picking it because it's a good picture. When it'scropped I think, "God, it just doesn't make sense. The picture's no good any more. It's not what I shot." Butphotographers have never had control over layout with magazines--not even Eugene Smith, and this made him veryunhappy.

But in the end I feel I always have the photograph, and if it's a good photograph, one day it will be publisheduncropped. That's important to me. There have been some layouts that I've really been pleased with, and I'm alwaysthrilled when that happens. I like clean and simple layouts. I think that's what really works.

Do the editors or the art directors who assign you the story ever tell you how you should shoot it or whatyou should emphasize?

It's very unusual, but I'd hate it if an editor told me how to shoot a story because then I'd feel like an illustrator. I wantto have the freedom to go out and shoot what I see and interpret it my own way. But it's very inspiring and useful todiscuss a story with a photo editor before you start to shoot. A great photo editor is an ally and can have wonderfulideas that will help you with your story. Peter Howe at Life, for example, is very helpful and supportive, as are severalothers. I usually have a very positive relationship with photo editors--they want the pictures to be great too.

What are your favorite kinds of assignments? What are the subjects and people and places that you mostlike?

The kind of assignment I like is one that has the possibility of a visual impact that interests me. That's a hard question,because what I consider visual can be abstract. Why don't I talk about different kinds of pictures that are in this book?Ethiopia was really important to me because I felt that those photographs should have a lasting visual impression. Itwas more than a news event, it really symbolized something horrific that was happening to mankind in our century,and could happen again and again--and I felt people needed to see those images. The opposite emotional extremewould be something like the street performers in India, which have a sense of whimsy and craziness, a magic andmystery that I thought could be beautiful. It says something about my fascination with and love of India.

When do you use 2 1/4-inch format and when do you use 35mm?

If a subject has strong, active content I use 35mm. If I have to create the content and atmosphere, as in portraiture, Iuse 2 1/4. It's a different sort of reality. I have been using a 2 1/4 camera for seven years, and it has enhanced myway of seeing. In fact, it has made me a better 35mm photographer.

How do you approach photographing an assignment?

It depends upon the story. With Ethiopia I just went and took the photographs because they were there--they existed,and it was an incredible experience. I always prefer to spend a long period of time in one place. In Ethiopia I chosejust to go to the same camp rather than to travel here and there. I made two trips to one camp, so I knew the peoplethere. That way when you see someone you want to photograph you can think about it and take pictures you feel areimportant. You make more of a personal investment that way. The stories from the Philippines and Zimbabwe wereclassic photojournalism assignments for the London Sunday Times Magazine. I spent several weeks in bothcountries, and as you spend time you get clues as to how your story is going to evolve. One thing leads to another.Before I begin a project, I also do a lot of research.

But in a situation like Ethiopia, or the home for the dying in Calcutta, in circumstances that would beoverwhelming in a lot of ways--visually, emotionally, psychologically--how do you know where to start?

You just go in and start. It is overwhelming, and the older I get the more overwhelming it becomes. That's why mycurrent work on the Indian circus is a relief because it's not about confronting something that is so terribly emotionallyoverwhelming and depressing, but is more about the magic and whimsy of the circus, and my love for India. Iimmediately try to make a relationship with the people I'm photographing, so I'm not an anonymous person to them.Within the relief camp of Korem in Ethiopia, I photographed the same places every day. There were maybe fortydifferent tents where people were living and dying; I confined my photographs to three tents. I'd go back every dayand see the same people. This kind of personal contact in some ways makes it easier for me to deal emotionally withdifficult subjects--but it also makes it harder for me to leave. Leaving Ethiopia was especially difficult.

Do you try to be an objective observer in situations you are photographing? Is this possible?

No, I don't think you're ever an objective observer. By making a frame you're being selective, then you edit thepictures you want published and you're being selective again. You develop a point of view that you want to express.You try to go into a situation with an open mind, but then you form an opinion, and you express it in your photographs.It is very important for a photographer to have a point of view--that contributes to a great photograph.

Your photographs are graphically very simple, very resolved, but they are emotionally very powerful.

What I'm trying to do is to make photographs that are universally understood, whether in China or Russia or America--photographs that cross cultural lines. So if the project is about street performers, it touches those little things andwhimsies we're all interested in--animals and people and anthropomorphic qualities. If it's about famine in Ethiopia,it's about the human condition all over the world: it's about people dying in the streets of New York as much as it'sabout Ethiopia. I want my photographs to be about the basic emotions and feelings that we all experience.

Do you consciously develop some sort of narrative in your story? Something with a beginning, middle,andend?

No. I don't do that. I always think of the single image. One thing I always hope for is that I have a photograph that isso powerful it can open the story, but then I want everything else to be very strong also. So I think about a narrativeonly in the hope that I will have several pages of individually strong photographs.

But the story does begin to take shape in your mind.

It takes shape, definitely. You're trying to show all the different aspects of a strong subject, you're giving yourimpression of what you see. For example, in Zimbabwe I was hoping to give the impression of what that country waslike. It suddenly had a new government. What was it like to be white in Zimbabwe? What was it like to be black inZimbabwe?

What kind of research do you do before you go off on assignment?

The major research I do is to find contacts who can help me where I'm working. For example, when I photographedthe ethnic communities in Sydney, Australia, for National Geographic., I found a woman in Sydney who would help mewith my research before I arrived. That way I could spend all my time on location doing photographs rather thanresearching on a telephone in my hotel room.

How many assistants do you usually take?

It varies. For most of the stories published in this book there were no assistants. I started working with assistants onlya few years ago, but they are a great help, and whenever possible I work with one. Sometimes I hire a local person tohelp, but I prefer to work with the same person over a long period of time. On big commercial assignments--advertising or work for film studios that requires complex lighting set-ups--I use more than one assistant. With 35mmdocumentary work I work with one person.

What about the issue of shooting in black and white versus color?

I find it very difficult to do both simultaneously. Somebody called me about this upcoming trip to India and asked if Icould shoot some color at the same time that I'm using black and white, and I said no. Recently I've been doing moreblack-and-white photography. I prefer it. I think color is much more difficult because it's technically much lessforgiving. Also it's another element to have to think about: color itself.

You use color when it adds to the emotional content of the picture?

I like color when it heightens the reality of the situation. The color photo essays in this book are successful examplesof that. But again I'm the first to admit that it's much, much more difficult. I shot the photographs of Ethiopia in colornegative film because the magazine insisted the story be in color. I wanted to have the latitude of negative film andnot to have to think about the more limited range of transparency film. Shooting in color negative allowed me to be alot freer than if I were shooting transparency film.

How technically proficient are you? Is that important to you?

I've learned to become more technically proficient, but I'm not a technical person. I'd say that in the last ten years I'velearned to be a hundred times more technical than I was. It's important. If you're going to work professionally, acertain amount of technique is necessary simply because it helps you to come back with results. Also, great lightingtechnique can help a photographer make a stronger image, especially in portraiture. Beautiful natural light is the mostdesirable thing of all, but you can't always rely on it being there.

The whole nature of what magazines expect has changed. Sometimes, unfortunately, what they seem to want now isa certain slickness. If I were giving advice to young people studying photography who want to work for magazines, Iwould say that technique is important, because it enables you to have a greater range in your work. In one sense itfrees you, and in another it doesn't: if it's going to add to what you do and make you more confident, then it frees you,but if it restricts your vision and you think only about technique, not content, it doesn't.

And you shoot a lot?

I shoot a lot because I try to vary frames. I feel a contact sheet is like a sketchbook, but there's always one frame thatis better. I edit very carefully.

There's a particular photograph of yours done in Calcutta. It's of a little blind child, who is sensing someone'shand. It is tremendously powerful, very moving, because it captures something that has to do with the wayyou work on the street.

I can tell you exactly how this photograph happened. Again, it is knowing the people that you're photographing. I knew

that little girl well, and I also knew her parents, who were there to adopt her. I spent a lot of time photographing them.So when that happened, when she touched her adopted mother's hand, I was luckily in the right place to take thatphotograph. I remember everything when I have taken a picture that is important to me--every little detail. On thecontact sheets there are a lot of different sequences. She walked over to her mother, she leaned against her legs,then she touched her hands. It just happened. You learn to anticipate situations. I have done documentaryphotography for so many years, I have developed a sense of when something is going to happen, and I wait for thatmoment. That's when it's most exciting. I love the 2 1/4 format because its negative resolution is beautiful; but whenyou're working in 35mm and things are just quickly unfolding, it's most incredible in another way.

You never seem to turn away from things most people would turn away from. You're not afraid to look, notafraid to get right up there.

Recently I was watching a program on Cambodia on television. They showed these war photographs that were justamazing, and I thought, "God, somebody was standing right there taking them!" Think of that incredible photographby Larry Burrows. He risked his own life many, many times. I'm not risking my life. I photograph people in difficultsocial situations--people who have difficult lives--but I never feel threatened by the people I photograph. They have astory to be told. I want to tell it, I want to be a voice for the unfamous people. Those are the people who interest me.Whether it's a guy in Miami Beach who goes to a dance or it's someone who's dying in Ethiopia, they're the unfamouspeople that I care about. I feel a certain purity in them that's real, and I want to document their lives.

You photograph people who are dying, people who are suffering from famine, people who live on the edge of society or who are in some way brutalized by society. Do you ever feel that you're exploiting them?

That's very difficult to come to terms with. I photograph people who are the victims of society, because I care aboutthem. And I want the people who see my pictures to also care. Sometimes there are things I feel I can't photograph.It's a difficult situation to know when you can and when you cannot take a picture. That's when you ask yourself if youare being exploitative, or if you are photographing something that must be seen. Sometimes when I don't photographsomething I say, "God, I should have, because it was really important to the story. I should have done it." And thensometimes when I do take the photograph I worry about stepping over boundaries. I have developed an instinct forhow far to go.

How do you think these people perceive you?

Everyone I have photographed is different. You can't predict how you're going to be perceived. I just try to be honestwith people--and they can make up their own minds about me. I stay in contact with many of the people I photographfor long periods of time. I become involved in their lives.

Does a project take over your life the way an actor's life is taken over?

Yes, of course, especially the prostitutes of Bombay, because that story was such an amazing experience. I lived andbreathed and dreamt it. It was an incredible time in my life. Each day was like a living soap opera. Their lives werevery dramatic.

What about coming back to your everyday life after that?

The separation from that story was very, very difficult, because I thought I would never see many of the women again.Ending a story is always difficult, especially when you have come to know and care about people.

Ethiopia represented an extreme in terms of human experiences. Do you ever find yourself feelng that youprefer to work at such an extreme level?

Well Ethiopia was extreme, but in a sense a prostitute's life isn't--it's very simple, day-to-day survival, and you find

your extremes within that. It's not about extremes, it's about something else. It's about those social parallels that weall understand, and maybe those parallels are found more often in the extremes.

What's it like to be away for long periods in places that are really foreign to you, alien to you. Is it lonely? Is itdifficult?

The most difficult part is actually preparing for my departure. For example, in two weeks I'm leaving for three monthsin India, and the idea of everything I have to do before I leave, and also of finally getting through customs with all myfilm and cameras, is overwhelming. Once I'm there, I'm immersed in my work, and that part is wonderful.

Do you ever feel afraid, that you're threatened in any way?

Before I go I always think about the worst that's going to happen. Right now I think I might get stepped on by anelephant, or eaten by a tiger. But then I always come back and it's all okay.

What are some of the obstacles that you had to overcome in being on assignment--in being in India, in beingin Africa.

Well India is not a difficult place for me because I know it. I'm always afraid that I'm not going to get access, I'malways afraid that I'm not going to make great photographs. I go into every story thinking I'm going to fail. I think aboutthat all the time--I think it's going to be terrible. Every story is like the first I've ever done.

Have you ever been in a situation where it's been a disaster?

Only in the sense that--and I'm not trying to pass the buck--in a couple of stories, writers sold magazines story ideasthat didn't exist. But that does not happen often. Usually you just fight to make your pictures work. There have beentimes when after a week I've called home and said, "God, this is a failure and I can't do it. It's not there." But somehowI just fight it through and it happens. It's just a question of finding my access, then making strong photographs.

When you first started there were very few women photographers. Is it easier now?

When I first started, there were few female photographers, but now, happily, there are many more. I think it's anadvantage. In all other life experiences it's harder being a woman; but I think for a woman photographer--as aphotojournalist particularly--the whole idea of access becomes easier because people are less threatened by awoman.

You've photographed quite a lot in India, and you have returned often over the last twenty years or so. Doyou prefer to photograph in exotic places?

I love India, but I loved Russia too. The things that interest me in different cultures are all those things I can findparallels for in my own culture. India and Russia are countries that have a lot of parallels to America. Recently I havebeen working in America. This is a fascinating country. It's such a strange place and very visually exciting.

Are you aware of certain themes that you really like and repeat?

Yes. You are who you are, and it's important to recognize that and to explore those obsessions, rather than think "Ihave to do something different." There are several themes that I always come back to, and I hope to continue toexplore them again and again.

How do you perceive what's happening with the magazines today in terms of editorial content?

In terms of the kind of work that I do, which is social-documentary photography, magazines today are at a low pointsimply because of this huge emphasis, more than ever, on glossy celebrity photographs. But I'm encouraged by Lifemagazine: when I return from India I will shoot three strong documentary stories for them. I really believe magazineswill again publish strong documentary work, because so much of the slick work that is being published now is empty,and because real documentary magazine photography is just so much stronger and more important for the world tosee. I am an idealist about social documentary photography.

Are there assignments that you turn down?

I turn down a lot of stories. I want to do only documentary work that is important to me. Commercial work can helpsupport my personal work, and so I'll accept most reasonable commercial assignments. But I want my documentarywork to always be something special, something that I love.

Do you think it's possible to make a living just doing documentary photography without taking commercialwork and without doing advertising?

I think it's not. I get very few advertising assignments, but I did photograph a campaign last year for GoodHousekeeping, and it supported me. If you want to be a hard-news photographer out there shooting every event youcan probably support yourself, but you've got to be really willing to run very hard to do it. I don't want to do that--it'sreally so different from what my work is about. It is much more difficult to support yourself doing documentarymagazine work, because first of all, those assignments don't come along that often. They come along less and lessnow, simply because of a new emphasis on celebrity portraiture. And too, the work is so intense, difficult, andexhausting that if you did it day after day to support yourself you would either collapse or burn out.

The kind of schedule you have, the kind of life you lead--it's pretty hectic, isn't it?

Yes. When I look at my room, with clothes all over to be packed for a three-month trip, and think of all I have to do,yes, sure it is hectic. And then I think of how important this work is to me. Kodak has sponsored my six-month projecton the Indian circus. It is something I have wanted to photograph for twenty years, so a hectic schedule is worth it if Ican make the photographs I want to make.

What is a typical three-month travel schedule?

I hired Daijanita Singh, an Indian photographer, to research for me. She scheduled the entire first part of the trip,locating nine different circuses. Now I'm returning to photograph nine more. I'll start to travel in late October, and I'llspend a week or more visiting each circus, and then in late November I'll go to Japan because Eikoh Hosoeorganized a show for fifty photographers from around the world and they invited me to come. After spending five daysin Japan I'll return to India and continue to work. To help finance this trip I will do a series of black-and-white picturesin Jodhpur for Travel and Leisure magazine.

So would you advise someone who's thinking about doing documentary photography that traveling is reallya part of this life?

In the work I do travel is really essential because assignments are all over the country and all over the world. Youhave to be willing to allow yourself to have that kind of freedom. It has a strong effect on one's personal life.Sometimes I look at people who have a centered life, who really spend time at home. Sometimes I envy their lives,but then if I had to do it all over again I would definitely make the same choice again, because I love documentaryphotography, but also because through my photography I have met so many special people and experienced somany lives. For example, if I were not a documentary photographer I would have never known the women of FalklandRoad or Tiny, the young girl in Streetwise.

You're working now on a major retrospective for George Eastman House, which will be accompanied by a

book. Do you think the attitude toward photojournalism and documentary photography has changed on thepart of the museum and art world establishment?

Yes, I think that more and more the museums and galleries are giving documentary photography the recognition itdeserves.

When you talk to students who are seriously thinking about making photography their life, what are two orthree really key things you say to them?

I think the most important thing is to do work that you believe in so that when you are seventy-five or eighty years oldyou can look back at what you've done and say, "I've accomplished something." If you are interested in photographybecause you love it and are obsessed with it, you must be self-motivated, a perfectionist, and relentless.