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IN CONFIDENCE

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

FILE NUMBER:Interviewee: Wayne Denning (WD)Interviewers: Vicki McDonald (VM)

Ray Weekes (RW)

GAME CHANGERS

Interview conducted at State Library of Queenslandon 31 August 2017.

STATE LIBRARY OF QUEENSLAND

1. VM Good evening everyone and welcome to this evening's Game Changers

event. I'm Vicki McDonald and it's my great privilege to be the State

Librarian and CEO of this fantastic library and on behalf of my colleagues I

welcome you to your State Library. I would also like to extend a welcome to

those watching at Rockhampton Regional Library and Laidley Library and

we're co-hosting live streamed events at those libraries this evening, so hi.

Let me also begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land in

which we meet and pay my respects to their ancestors who came before

them and I'm sure you know that the State Library is located on Kurilpa Point

which is a traditional meeting, gathering and sharing place for Aboriginal

people and of course, here at the State Library we continue that tradition

every day. I'd also like to acknowledge and welcome our speaker for this

evening, Wayne Denning from Carbon Creative, so welcome back to the

State Library, Wayne. Ray Weekes, Chairman of the CEO Institute and our

facilitator for this evening, members of the Library Board of Queensland the

Queensland Library Foundation council, Queensland Business Leaders Hall

of Fame Governing Committee and also QUT Business School. And of

course, a warm welcome to our generous donors and sponsors, Crowe

Horwath, Channel Seven, Morgans, NAB and RACQ. So thank you all for

joining us tonight at our August Game Changers conversation. This event

series brings together innovative leaders from business, technology and

creative industries together to share their insights with us. The event series

provides an opportunity to hear the honest, personal reflections of some of

Queensland's leading game changers in business as they share their

pathways to success and some of their battles and triumphs along the way.

Game Changers is an initiative of the Queensland Business Leaders Hall of

Fame and the Business Leaders Hall of Fame was established in 2009 by

the State Library, the Queensland Library Foundation and the QUT Business

School. And the Hall of Fame celebrates, records and re-tells stories of

Queensland's outstanding business leaders and their many contributions to

development of this State. There are four conversations in the 2017 Game

Changers series and they delve into the minds of individuals who have made

significant developments in their industries, revealing their insights and

experiences and I'm sure that their stories will fill you with inspiration and

acknowledge to incorporate into your own professional endeavours. Tonight

we are really pleased to be welcoming Wayne Denning, Managing Director

and Executive Producer of Carbon Creative. In 2006 Wayne took a leap

from his successful career in government to establish Carbon Creative, a full

service creative agency designed to give a positive voice to Indigenous

Australians. Earlier this month Wayne, who's a graduate of QUT Business

School, which was well done, Wayne. Was named a special excellence

winner at the 2017 QUT Outstanding Alumni Awards for achievements and

contributions to Indigenous communities. And earlier this week Carbon

Creative was announced as a finalist in the inaugural Indigenous Digital

Excellence Awards for their STEM.I.AM initiative which encourages

Indigenous children and youth to start robotics and coding as an important

building block to their future and I'm pleased to say that SLQ is one of the

collaborators, so we wish you luck in those awards as well. So this evening's

event is being live streamed on our website and to those who are live stream

viewers out there, including Rockhampton and Laidley, we encourage you to

tweet your questions using the hashtag QBLL, QBLHOF and it's on the

screen as well for the people who are here tweeting as well. So we do

encourage you to tweet and tweet questions as well or you can hold on to

your questions and we'll take those at the end of tonight's conversation. So

Ray and Wayne will address as many questions as possible that come

through on the tweets. So for now I'd like to welcome Ray Weekes to the

stage to introduce Wayne and to begin tonight's conversation. Thank you,

Ray (clapping).

2. RW Well, good evening and welcome to our Game Changers event and it's a

special one. Now as a successful entrepreneur Wayne Denning will be

sharing the story of his journey from the very small coal mining town of

Blackwater in Central Queensland to wheeling and dealing with Sesame

Street producers in New York. And you'll see a little bit tonight to developing

creative works centered around Indigenous culture and experiences that

influence social change. Wayne, as Vicki said, as Managing Director of

Carbon Creative, he did leave a very successful career with the Federal

Government to start Creative Media, quite a leap of faith. A full service

creative agency that delivers engaging content and compelling story telling to

give a positive voice to Indigenous Australians. Now when he's not

delivering advertising campaigns for positive social change he's on the

boards of the Queensland Theatre Company and also the National Film and

Sound Archive. Wayne is also an Advance Queensland digital champion.

Now Carbon Creative, which you'll again better understand tonight, does

help shape and share stories and ideas. Wayne and his team remain

anchored in social change. Now Wayne Denning will tonight allow you to

understand why he loves being an entrepreneur, one who combines his

sense of social responsibility with creativity and you'll hear why shortly but

before we get underway we're going to show you a film, a short film that may

tell you a little of what Carbon Creative is about. (video plays). We know

who we are. We always have. We innovate, invent, survive, thrive. Like

mine before we are wise, leading a (unintelligible - (ui)) power. Through our

lens we see yours and go with you to make a positive difference to give a

positive voice. Proudly Aboriginal this is Carbon Creative. (video ends).

Please welcome Wayne Denning (clapping).

3. WD Thank you.

4. RW Now Wayne, just why don't we start off by talking about Carbon Media, now

Carbon Creative.

5. WD Uh-huh.

6. RW Just what does it do and what's its real reason for being?

7. WD I suppose it goes back to the reason I created Carbon Media and evolved

into Carbon Creative which was really about exactly everything you've just

said. It's about, I mean, I was frustrated having had those years inside

government, going from a very proactive and social change agenda which

was in the early 90s to a progressive, more conservative approach, you know

in the mid to, mid to, mid 90s through to early 2000s and in terms I became

quite frustrated with that and particularly the way the portrayal of Indigenous

people were being, was being presented in the mainstream and on news and

all those sorts of things. And I, I got particularly frustrated about that and I

think the ability to communicate effectively and put ideas about what

Indigenous people really wanted and what, that we're not considered in the

deficit and that we do want positive contributions to be a part of this society

but we can be leaders not only to our own people but to the country and to

be held up in that space. So to me it was about facilitating a mechanism to

do that and subsequently Carbon Media, now Carbon Creative came to be,

Creative came to be, yeah.

8. RW The word carbon, explain that.

9. WD Well, you know it's interesting, you know. I was sort of toying with the idea

when I came up with the company idea, which I was pretty fascinated by.

There was a rugby sponsorship in Europe 02 and you know a

telecommunications company, so I thought that was pretty cool and I saw

that and I think it was just after, you know we, the British had beaten us in

the, the English had beaten us in the World Cup in rugby. So it was slightly

annoying but it sort of stuck in my head that oh, well, let's think. I love that

element and I love the idea of simplicity around that but something that says

something and the beauty of carbon, it's a base element. It's, on the periodic

table it's number, it's sixth and all life is derived from, you know we're carbon

beings and everything. So it gives this sense of eternal connectivity, original

and I thought being an Indigenous person that where we come from in our

way into the future the word carbon really epitomised that to me and it was

quite a, that was the reason and it was just prior to all the debate around

carbon, carbon trading and carbon tax and all those sorts of things, so I know

it went sort of bad at that point but once you explain it people sort of get it,

so.

10. RW Good. Good, thanks. Now telling inspirational Indigenous stories and

portraying Indigenous role models, positive Indigenous role models is really

at the heart of your work. So a decade on, this is a decade on now from

when you created Carbon Media and Carbon Creative. Can you describe

some key moments when you think this did come to fruition, when you

actually understood that this was going to work?

11. WD Well, I mean, I don't know if I'd say everything, it's ever going to fully work. I

just think we, it's almost a gain of inches really, I think. Sometimes when we

get momentum around things and then you slightly get frustrated but I think

we've got a better move forward now. You know we did the first ever, I

mean, we were very experimental as a company when we first started. We,

we did live broadcast from the Torres Strait. We did, you know live web

stream not dissimilar to tonight but you know this is probably 10 years ago,

so those sorts of things and very remote challenges thrown at us and the

idea was really connecting people. And I thought well, you know let's

proceed being innovative, being change driven. Some of it worked, some of

it's not but takes those sort of risks but in acceptable margins of a risk, I

think, pushing forward. I suppose for me really the crux point for it all, that

shift, is probably only in relative recent times in the last, probably last year

when we moved into Carbon Creative from the company that, the initial

company of Carbon Media and the brand and sort of split our two entities to a

degree from television to campaign agency work.

12. RW Let's talk about risk for a minute, just your appetite for risk because you talk

about the need for risk to drive...

13. WD Uh-huh.

14. RW ...success, to drive creativity. So what's your view of risk and how, what's

your level of appetite for risk?

15. WD I would say I'd probably take too much risk at times.

16. RW Yeah.

17. WD I think, I mean, I probably like to jump ahead. I like technology. I get excited

by those sorts of things. Although, I mean, I am surrounded by people that

advise me well about risk. My wife and my management team are extremely

level headed when it comes to those sorts of things, whereas I'm probably a

little bit more excitable about doing things and getting things a bit out of

control but I mean, we push forward and then we take a step back, so it's

that sort of thing. So risk does drive innovation. It does drive, it creates that

urgency that we need to put our hand up and take ownership of a problem

and accept responsibility. I think those sorts of things are really quite

important as a, as a leader and as a manager and I think by nature of seeing

a vision and trying to sell a vision and take people with you, you've got to be

able to analyse and strategise around risk.

18. RW Let's just explore some of the values that have really shaped you and where

do you get your values from that have a direct bearing on you and your

entrepreneurial spirit?

19. WD I mean, core values for me come from my family...

20. RW Right.

21. WD ...without a doubt, I think, and I, a lot of that goes to my grandmother and my

mother and my father who, and my grandmother grew up in a time in the

State and in Australia where she was, you know she wasn't a citizen. She

was an Aboriginal lady, you know pre, pre 1967 and you know she faced

significant adversity but always had a smile, was someone who was resilient

and strong, spoke no ill-thoughts of anybody but really wanted, worked really

hard. So those sorts of things definitely epitomised my mother and went into

my, her and her siblings and also linkages with my father who's an English

man who again gave me a bit of a thought about, again a very hardworking

person but who epitomised that the place was bigger than, than just the local.

So it sort of gave me an idea that, you know that he could as a young 28

year old guy move across the world and take up an opportunity to take, start

a life in another country and meet an Aboriginal community of people and

just start a life totally different to everything he probably expected and it's just

turned out pretty cool.

22. RW Wayne, let's just stay with your grandmother for a minute because she was

just an inspiration to you, your grandmother, and she thought you a number

of life lessons. She had that generous spirit as you said but take us through

why she was such an inspiration.

23. WD Look, she, she was a strong woman of faith. She, she really believed in a lot

of things. She was really strong around family and community and had great

friends and good networks. She didn't have much in the way of material or

money and those sorts of things but she was a lady that just loved in a way

and was so encompassing of everyone that sort of knew her and, and you

can't go wrong with those sorts of values. I really do think her ability, once,

you know not that she ever mentioned much one she was alive but when you

find out some of the harder things that she had to live through and you know

it was difficult you know what I mean. I remember a story that I heard, they

grew up, my grandfather and my nan were courting. Well, you weren't

officially allowed to court without permission from the Aboriginal protector.

They lived in Woorabinda in Central Queensland and you're just hearing very

clever ways in which men had to express feelings, that they were slightly

interested in a girl outside sanctioned sort of social occasions and it was like,

it's crazy but men used to spit in the direction of a girl that they liked. It is just

because they weren't allowed to, so they got...

24. RW This is downwind or upwind?

25. WD I don't know. So hopefully, yeah, so you've got to dodge it but, you know I

remember my nan had to spend a night in, in lock up because she waved to

share her, show her, that she was interested she wave to my grandad and

yeah, so she had to, she had to be put away for, because they saw her, so

she wasn't allowed to do that. So just a simple wave of love for a teenage,

young early 20s I suppose girl, and it just showed you some of the things but

she never spoke much about those sorts of things...

26. RW No, of course.

27. WD ...but just continued and be, and was embracing of everybody and

everyone's cultures, so.

28. RW You also drew inspiration and life lessons from the fellow who's on the $50

note, David Unaipon. What's about his story that inspired you?

29. WD Well, you know I think, well, he was a certified genius and this is a man that

is very familiar to us all because, you know I know times are tough but we've

hopefully got a couple of $50 notes in our pockets occasionally and the

reality is that David Unaipon was an amazing Australian. He was an

Aboriginal man born about 130 years ago. He innovated. He was, he was a

da Vinci of our country. He linked to me our traditional ways of doing things

to the way of innovating and inspiring a country. As you know he created the

orbital shear which on the $50 note it celebrates everything about him and

it's still used today and this country grew up on the sheep's back. Anyone

would have told you that at some point in your life and you would have said

well, the man who changed that made economic wealth for Australia was an

Aboriginal man but he was widely disregarded in that sense. So to me but

he continued. He wrote about issues. He, he was a very brave Australian

and a strong Aboriginal man and to me this idea of innovation and resilience

and leadership as an Aboriginal person but for the whole country...

30. RW Is embodied in him.

31. WD Yeah, embodied in him. An inspiration to me. He should be an inspiration to

all Australians.

32. RW Now in 2013 you made TV history by producing the first ever Australian

content, the first ever Australian content of Sesame Street's Five Kangaroos

staring Indigenous singer and actress Jessica Mauboy. What was important

about this moment for the company, and you did a bit of wheeling and

dealing with the New York producers, about this moment for the company

and for the history books in your view?

33. WD Well, you know who would have thought a 90 second clip would have the

impact it has on everything that, you know for me and for the company but

way beyond that. Kids are still jumping around to it but look, the reality was I

went to New York. I had an idea that we needed to get content to be taken

seriously at that time in the children's television space but, and I'd heard from

a great kid’s television producer, a lady called Di Manson who's an Australian

who lives in New York who gave us good connections and said you need to

get in front of the Sesame Workshop team and Di introduced us or gave us

an opportunity or spoke about someone to go talk to a lady called Kimberley

Wright. And we pitched the idea of working with Jessica Mauboy, that we

would go over there and we've got this idea of working in, you know come

Down Under and work with Australian content and Australian kids because it

had never been done before. They weren't looking for Australian content.

They weren't even looking for English content. They were looking for

Hispanic content from America. It was freezing cold. It was February in New

York. I was dodging black ice and things like that. It was one of the coldest

winters on record and it snowed in, those super cells that they talk about. It

was, it was crazy times and she took a leap of faith. I went with a pack that

she presented our beautiful art and I think we had Es for emu and all sorts of

other things and all these ideas and, and I just really wanted to be, if we aired

the first content on Sesame Workshop, and I grew up on this as a kid. It was

45 years old at that point as an, as a production and for us to be there, I

would have, I just wanted it to be Indigenous kids and Indigenous talent and

Indigenous kids to be a part of that and I didn't have Jessica. She didn't

know I was over there pitching that she was on board with the show. She

didn't have a clue. Sony didn't certainly know. They were all, if they would

have found out, and then, you know Sesame Workshop, to their credit

Kimberley and others, the producers went down. I think Sapphires was

screening in a theatre somewhere in Manhattan and...

34. RW It was one theatre in the whole of New York, hey.

35. WD Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know that's just, we think things are, we're a big part

of the world but sometimes we're not. And to, and they went down and said

oh, we'll go and see this girl, she sounds really good, so they did and she

said yeah, we'll refocus it. You can, we'll come on board with you to produce

Five Kangaroos, so and the next thing you know we're in Alice Springs.

Jessica's on board minus her luggage which went missing but she went to

Target. So we had a totally different wardrobe for her but anyway, she's a

great person and a lovely, a lovely Australian, so she's beautiful but the next

thing you know we're in the Todd River with the kids from Yipirinya State,

Yipirinya School and Jessica Mauboy creating Australian television history.

36. RW Do you want to see a film about this? Yeah, let's watch it. (video played).

Isn't that great (clapping). Let's just explore some of your personal attributes.

As a leader and as an entrepreneur, we're going to explore in a second why

you love being an entrepreneur but I mean, these leader attributes, your

effectiveness as an entrepreneur are the key factors in your success story

but is there a personal story where you best understood your leadership

capacity because a lot of leaders will tell us a point in their lives someone

said to them, explored with them a capacity they didn't really think they had.

37. WD You know I mean, I guess a constant self-reflection. I mean, I think it's a

journey and I mean, putting myself forward as, as a leader, even the word

entrepreneur sort of sits slightly uneasy with me. I get what that means but I

think particularly I look at people who are leaders in this country and around

the world and they are attributes that inspire me and that make me feel

stronger about certain things. You certainly gleam and try and pull ways of

being better, better at what you do. I mean, it's certainly, it's something I

struggle with I've got to be honest with. It's, I've got a, the truest aspect

probably in really recent times is as we evolve as a company letting go of my,

my day to day hands on approach to things. I've got a really amazing team

and management that are just, you know and I've just got to take a step, to

me I suppose leading by, by realising that as a small business who's slightly

corporatising in a different way and taking on things and we've got new

challenges. There are other people, I used to be pretty much a general's

doing everything. Now we've got good specialists that are better at things

than I am. That's the bottom line and, and my ability to surround myself with

the better people that are great members of my team, I would say that in the

back of my head but I've got to remind myself that, you know you can't do it

sometimes. You can't do it all and your leadership is actually bringing those

teams together, inspiring that and getting a common objective and selling our

dream really, which is, it's an interesting one. You know we, as a company

we are a commercial business. We're but we have values, so it's, you know

profit with purpose, time manage but to actually sell that into the way

Australia works and the way the mind set works, that you can be commercial

but also want to change the world is, I feel is something relatively foreign.

We're not really about a secret objective here. We just want to, to make

particularly the focus on Indigenous Australians and the disadvantaged

groups of Australia and actually make things a bit better in terms of that and

give it a voice and be quite positive around that, and that doesn't always

mean reflecting on a deficit or a, or a disadvantage need. It's also about

promoting and celebrating heroes and leaders and role models and really

saying that as a country we can get behind this, you know and it doesn't

always have to be on a sporting field or on an art gallery. It can be in all

shapes. It could be a scientist and that's why we are very passionate about

STEM.I.AM and engineering and coding and science and getting as many

Indigenous people, kids into that.

38. RW Yeah, I'll come back to them in a minute but the best advice I ever got as a

CEO was surround yourself with the best people.

39. WD Exactly.

40. RW Make your expectations clear and then constantly demonstrate your trust and

confidence in their capacity to deliver but the hardest thing was letting go.

41. WD Absolutely.

42. RW Yeah.

43. WD And it's, that's a very current thing for me really in all honesty. I mean, I've

been very much at the helm of this company, it's 12 years now since, coming

up 12 years since we created it. You know it started as a project plan at

QTM, you know the MBA program. I pitched and the guys got behind it as

(ui) and we did a project, you know where the business team was absolutely

nothing like what really running a business was like at the time but it certainly

stand me in good stead in terms of where we've landed. You know and the

ability to realise that tells you by its very nature you've got to surround

yourself with good teams and good people that bring different attributes to

the table. Working with teams in that way...

44. RW Yep.

45. WD ...and even to sell it at that point now you know we've got professionals at the

table. We're dealing with significant campaigns that are making strong

messaging or providing strong messaging, so making lives better and

promoting positive social change and...

46. RW But if I ask members of your team tell us about your Wayne, what does he,

what does he represent, what does he stand for, what do you think they'd

say?

47. WD You know I think they think that I'm very passionate about making the place a

better place really. I think my values are very much driven by that. I get very

frustrated by that. Sometimes I get concerned that why doesn't everyone

see this idea. My, and I, you know I lose it a bit about that but that's just,

that's just who I am and I suppose I'm impatient with those things but yeah.

48. RW So what are the values that you look for in people that work for you?

49. WD Look, it's really driven by team. I probably, we make mistakes sometimes but

I, I really value that sort of capacity to, to gel a team and it's becoming more

around building machine parts or something I feel. Like, we're getting the

right cogs to the right, and this is a journey we've been on, I've had, you

know different teams at different times in the life of Carbon and, and to get to

the point now where I think it's more of a sophisticated approach to certain

things and the team that I have today is nothing like the team I had, you

know five years ago, six years ago. It's just evolved and I see it as a

constant, and the vision and the clarity around the objectives at which we're

trying to achieve now is, that's a direction we'll be going in into the next

period. And talking about leadership before and one of the attributes that I

really like is the ability to reinvent yourself and to use that team and to, whilst

the name Carbon stays consistent I would say we're nothing like we used to

be and that's kept me fresh, you know that ability to move from being a public

servant working in government being an adviser to creating a television

production company essentially and now I'm moving into stronger social

change campaigns. That's, to me they're different careers. They are, each

time we evolve and I literally was talking to Rebecca, who's one of my team,

management team who, the other day about reinventing yourself around and

doing, and you know and my wife as well around doing studies, doing things

and trying to evolve around what your learnings are and just saying we've got

to keep fresh, you've got to keep evolving and looking for innovation and

that's, that excites me as a person, keeps...

50. RW But that gives, differentiating yourself, it keeps you ahead of the game. Is

that the way you stay ahead of the game?

51. WD Yeah.

52. RW Yep.

53. WD I think, well, firstly realising that you, you can't stay still. I think surrounding,

it's an interesting perspective. We literally interviewed a social, not social, a

strategic strategist, social media guru all of 22 and she blew my mind away

yesterday and I just, unbelievable. It was just, you know I think I know

something about something and it just, to have someone who's just

absolutely amazing in terms of the way we have to communicate and how we

have to engage, and it's easy to say that and we realise that the platforms

that are being used in social media and other ways in terms of selling a

message are continuously evolving but to actually, to recruit the right people

around that sort of space and it gives us that edge. It was something I was

pretty, very excited about, particularly since she said yes.

54. RW Wayne, you're the creator of this, and I just want to come back to STEM for a

minute.

55. WD Mmm.

56. RW You created this STEM project, a Queensland Government initiative. The

aim is to increase the number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people

as, students looking, going to, pursuing STEM at university through targeted

and engagement activities for young people but just explain why this

particular work and your social model of enterprises is just so important to

you.

57. WD Well, you know I suppose STEM.I.AM is something, I mean, a few years ago

I originally started out studying engineering before I didn't want to do it

anymore. It was too hard. And I sort of felt, you know is this really what I

wanted to do? But, so I'm always passionate. I love technology. I love the

idea of inventing things and I was pretty excited about that at that time but I

did a presentation at the Melbourne, University of Melbourne own. They did,

held an inaugural engineering summit, Indigenous engineering summit and

we spoke about David Unaipon at that summit and this is a, you know

university in, you know I think their engineering school's top eight, top 10 in

the world. A 130 plus year old institution. It had three Indigenous graduates

in engineering and they were dismayed about that and I was equally

dismayed by that fact. I understand the reasons behind why that might be

hard but it, that's not, not right and I think, and I think the main thing for

Indigenous kids is not realising the opportunities that may exist for them and

much to, you know the situation, my grandparents probably wouldn't know

the doors that are open to me and the opportunities presented to me. And,

and I'd like to claim credit for that statement but that's Noel Pearson who said

that but those sorts of things are really important and I thought, you know the

digital economy we're looking at then I don't think we can afford to have, to

use the term close the gap, another gap appear for Indigenous kids,

particularly those that don't even know the opportunity exists and I, I became

quite concerned about that, so I thought we needed to do something, and

yes, it is part of a Queensland initiative but it's a national initiative. We firstly

pitched the idea and went to Google Australia came on board very promptly.

The Queensland Government has been fantastic as well in this State and we,

it's something we're very passionate about.

58. RW One thing we just spoke about the other day which really resonated with me

is you described the crystal clear skies and the landscape of Central

Australia, what it means to you personally and also your, the bearing it has

on your thinking. Just explain that.

59. WD Well, you would have seen with the intro piece they've said this is Carbon

Creative and there's some art that captures and that's the Milky Way. And

around that Milky Way, that's really Carbon's value statement. It's that piece

of Aboriginal art is our values and it puts our team and the people sitting

around our clients, we're all around that but we're looking at the Milky Way

and because that's the big thinking and that's the strategies and the ideas

about that and the Milky Way to me, I remember growing up as a boy in

Blackwater but also you know travelling in the Northern Territory and so forth

and watching shooting stars and it gives you a sense of place and a sense of

opportunity and where you need to be and where we can go. And just, you

know I just said, you know I'm in this very small town. You can feel very

alone but you know there's something greater out there and I think to me

that's an inspirational point of view and it just certainly stimulates your mind

in a way that and, and the other point I think we said the other day, you're

actually, you're looking at the past but you're in the future too at the same

time because that light takes millions of years to come to you from those

stars and then what you do with that is, you know you can change the world

with that.

60. RW You talk about landscapes. You talk about the changing digital landscape,

creating endless opportunities for young entrepreneurs. How do you see

this?

61. WD Well, it's totally what it is but I think, I mean, one of the things, I think a lot of

it's back to being true old fashion values too. We can see all these

opportunities in the tech and so forth but good strong communication skills,

ability to look at problem solving and pitch ideas still work in a social context.

I think these are the values that we need to ensure, despite what the

mechanism, be it a piece of technology, be it coding, be it a social media

platform but actually staying true to those sorts of values as a society, as

people, as humans and going back to some very ancient ways of working

and linking that will set us in good stead for the future.

62. RW Has the fear of failure been a factor in your, is it a great motivator for you?

Has it figured in your journey, that fear of failure? Because a lot of

entrepreneurs will say that.

63. WD I don't, I don't believe I'll fail, you know. I know it's constant. I believe, and

just maybe its delusion and the signs of a madman but it's the reality is that,

if I believed I was going to fail I don't know if I'd take the challenge, you know.

I don't, you don't...

64. RW But does the fear figure in your, the fear of... ?

65. WD I know I fear it. You know I think that's an acceptable reality. You've got to

deal with that. Failure is inevitable and learning from failure is the valuable

lesson you take from that. It's the step, so but then you say was that really a

failure or was it just another way of moving forward and you know change

direction or that wasn't meant to be. It's those sorts, I think as long as you

reflect on, on failure and on your learnings and actually incorporate that into

where you want to go into the future.

66. RW So what do you know about yourself now that you didn't know when you

started out on this journey?

67. WD I didn't know, I didn't know I mean, I don't know if I am particularly patient but

I didn't know that I, I suppose I didn't know what I didn't know really. I just, I

struggled with the fact, I thought things are easier. I thought, naively thought,

you know you follow these, the textbooks and that sort of, you know those

sorts of thinkings and you hear the rhetoric, the jargon, the team and all

these sorts of things and but the practical application of that is like, there are

true things in there. It's like you, you've got to get it right. I mean, we've had

some monumental failures in recruitment. We have had some monumental

failures in my own decisions but despite that we've sustained, moved

forward, took those punches and dust ourselves off and moved on. I didn't

know I would be able to survive then. I think that word around resilience and

the drive towards innovation are probably, you know just didn't factor as

much as I thought it would.

68. RW And persistence.

69. WD Persistence, yeah.

70. RW So having said that what do you think distinguishes successful

entrepreneurs, anything else? Resilience, persistence. What else?

71. WD You know I think the innovation aspect, I think. I think you've got to keep

looking for opportunities to, to innovate, and I know it's a jargon word and we

throw it out there but it's, to actually take that and I suppose innovation is

actually to evolve to accept risk, to learn, to take that and own things. I think

accountability is another key element to me is actually. I, if I'm looking for

recruiting people and the type of people I like to work with are those who take

responsibility and own, and own it, I think, and that's not always the case but

owning something I think and taking, that I've got this, I'm going to drive this

forward and taking that responsibility on an accountable level is something

really cool and really strong and an essential part of successful business.

72. RW Like give them space to take that ownership...

73. WD Yeah.

74. RW ...(ui) ownership.

75. WD Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, you've got to, you've got to, you can't control, so

you've got to allow people to make mistakes but you want them if they do

make mistakes to say I made that mistake, so.

76. RW So your burning passion from here, your burning desire, the fundamental

differences that you want to make, just explain, and where you see this in

five years.

77. WD Well, I mean, I like some of the programs that we're working, you know one

of the things that we do, and it's one of our sweet spots as a creative agency

is we've, we did a smoking campaign called Don't Make Smokes Your Story

with an Aboriginal man and his family, his trials and tribulations. And a guy

called Ted in the ads and it was that, and we've just got some fantastic

research back from the research companies for the government, the Federal

Government and the reason it's with Fred being, who was an Aboriginal man,

an Aboriginal family but non-Indigenous people saw that man as a man that

was just dealing with the family issues and taking that forward. They did not

for a moment think there's an Aboriginal man and to me that's the sweet

spot. That is like saying that's leadership by just accepting the reality behind

that and for us to have contributed a methodology behind doing that was

quite strong. We recently did something similar with a domestic violence

campaign for the State Government, Stop the Hurting where we spoke to

Aboriginal focus groups and kids about what they wanted to see. It was a 12

to 17 year old demographic target group and the idea was to, what did they

want to see and the Indigenous said look, we realise there's issues but we

don't want to just see us, we want to see everyone but, and be a part of that

and that was great learning and we created a campaign with, you know Illy

the singer, a hip hop artist and these kids and it just, that was something I'm

pretty proud of as a campaign. It's quite unique, so.

78. RW Good. Now look, we were expecting to see some tweets coming out of

Rockhampton and Laidley and so on. We haven't seen any yet, so if you

have any please let us, send them through. Could I ask you any questions

from the audience? And look, we have a microphone here. We have a

microphone on both sides, so let's just raise the lights a bit on you so we can

see where the questions are coming from. Now I can see your hands. Who

would, there's a question here, thank you. Just over here. Just over there,

thanks, and please raise your hand if there's another question over here.

Yep, right. We'll come to you next.

79. XX Thanks. Thank you (ui) and I really have enjoyed this tonight. I was just a

little bit interested to hear about your journey from actually the Federal

Government...

80. RW That microphone on by the way?

81. XX Okay. Yeah. Thank you very much for tonight and I was very interested in

your journey or your decision actually to move from the Federal Government

to doing what you're doing. You mentioned the disillusionment but it's still

quite a big decision when you go from I suppose a secure job, pay packet,

etcetera.

82. WD Yeah.

83. XX Like, did you do that, did you transition and you were doing something on the

side or was it literally just that clearer jump?

84. WD Well, I was disillusioned. I mean, I was more frustrated by a range of factors

and I mean, it's also a personal journey. Yes, there was the politics and all

those sorts of issues and what we were working but I really felt the need to

be my own boss and my own, take my own agenda and if I was going to be

frustrated about this let's live and die by your own sword so to speak. And

what I did was I was in government and I was there for about, I suppose

about 11, 12 years and I, I needed to break that but you know I went and did

an MBA at QUT and not just because they're the sponsors but that was the

reality for me and to be able to do that and re-progam how I was thinking. So

you know I was specialising in entrepreneurship and the strategy and

governance and those sorts of things I thought were the types of learnings I

needed to take away to set up a successful business. I didn't have a lot of

time to do that, so I did a very intensive one year to get back out because I

didn't have any money coming in, so those sorts of things. So and to actually

start a journey and pull ourselves up by the bootstraps as they say and it was

successful. And I'm right to say that this was a slowly, it was, you know

again very small gains to build and then build again and as the theory works

but that's how, it actually did work for us and I was happy to move on with

that.

85. RW Is there another question just here? Thanks.

86. XX Thanks, Wayne. I was just wondering with all of the sort of paradigm shifts in

the marketplace recently with what's going on with technology, you know

these days a single app could be created that, you know for 99 cents that

can kind of change industries completely like Uber for example. What sort of

changes will existing business models need to make and what sort of, what's

the sort of mindset that any entrepreneur should have going into creating

new business ventures with, before the rapid change that's happening?

87. WD Yeah. Look, I think we've moved into an industry, I mean, the ad agency

world is, you know very much a guarded world and it hasn't really probably

shifted, I mean, it probably has in recent times but it hadn't needed to really

shift probably since the 60s and 50s when that model had come about but

we're a very bespoken light business. There’s only about 10, 12 of us.

Companies traditionally are larger. They have digital teams and so forth.

We, we are, you know we work with professionals that come in. We bring

people we but we maintain a very senior sort of management model that we

work with, with groups and the other thing around that is the general

business practice, working with cloud based technologies around like Zero

and project tracking systems like Trello and Workflow and Harvest, those

sorts of things that made small businesses. We don't have big commercial

overheads in terms of corporate support. It's really, you're looking at me and

other people like me in my office. There's just a handful of us and to actually

do that and integrate with that makes things streamline. So we don't have to

be big, so we can keep our overheads down as a business and not be

bigger. That's what the digital disruptions really created for us and has

made, I mean, the company was born out of digital disruption. If, when I

originally came up with Carbon the idea was, we were trying to pitch the idea

of video content over the emerging digital device. There was no iPhone.

That hadn't happened. That hadn't happened for several years after we

created Carbon but we were thinking there was an opportunity to do

webisodes and all that, sort of low entry cost things, low barriers to entry.

And then democratise media through things like the software products put up

for by Apple and those sorts of guys allowed us to start a business that

traditionally was going to cost millions of, or hundreds of thousands of dollars

to gain an entry and that's no longer the case, so.

88. RW Another question? Yep, thank you. Sorry. Peter, the microphone just here,

thanks.

89. XX Wayne, thanks very much for inspiring conversation and I'm sure everybody

in the room, well, certainly in my own case, we really want to see Indigenous

businesses thriving. It's really important, you know for the Indigenous

community and that's important for Australia. I just, you mentioned thinking a

couple of times and some of the references that you made, led me to think

about how you think and whether you're consciously aware of your

Indigenous heritage and culture influencing the way you think because

there's been a lot of criticism of Australian business leaders and

entrepreneurs thinking very narrowly and focused on the short term. And I

wonder whether you're conscious that, that your Indigenous heritage is

informing the way you think, not just about the day to day but the future of

your business.

90. WD I'd say yes, it does and it's something that sort of became more apparent to

me, and it's not just uniquely me or anyone like that. It became more

apparent in terms of a particular philosophy. I went to a procurement or a

supply diversity conference in the US in Orlando a few years back and where

the minority supply groups are working and there's billions of dollars’ worth of

trade going on for minority groups working with the big, you know the big

blue chip companies and so forth. Over there those companies are actively

pitching for multi, you know minority groups to come and work with them

because not because they're minority groups and for social good but

because of the way that they think and the cultural diversity that they bring to

the table actually improves the bottom line of their businesses. I don't know

if Australia is anywhere near that, particularly in the Indigenous space. I

attend a similar type of event here in Australia. We have to pitch to pretty

much government sources as an Indigenous business to, you know to

engage with our services and it's, there's a mega mind shift because it's,

there's an imbalance to what is actually brought. There needs to be an

appreciation that an Indigenous man and Indigenous ways of thinking or

Indigenous businesses actually bring significant opportunities for the bottom

lines of whatever the business is, not just in the Indigenous space but in

terms of the thinking.

91. RW Different thinking, yeah.

92. WD Look, I met a guy, I did a, sat on Robotronica at QUT a couple of weekends

ago on a panel about old ways, new tech and I was sitting with an associate

professor from UTS in Sydney and he was talking about the way robots and

coding works and integrating Indigenous communication methodologies and

traditions over thousands of years that have been developed into

streamlining quicker sign apps type thinking in the robots and the way we

code robots. So he's thinking that there's a significant bottom line from

something very ancient communication skill sets that are very traditional but,

and how robots of the future will work and what, as opposed to juxtaposed to

a western thinking methodology, so you know. So yeah, I do think that and

it's not just me, so yeah.

93. RW Question? Yep, thank you.

94. XX Good evening, Wayne. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us.

I'm more interested, I'm really passionate about social change as you are

and I believe that social change starts with the people and so if you wait in

queue, move a bureaucratic government you'll be waiting a long time. So I'm

really interested in your opinion how we as Australians as part of the

community can change our behaviour to create social impact that creates

equality for all Australians.

95. RW That's a big one.

96. WD Well, look, you've seen the debate. I think, on several social fronts at the

moment, be it the recent recognition process for Indigenous Australians and

how that was handled by the Federal Government and the current, you know

marriage debate that's going on. And to me I think facilitating clear lines of

communications and being quite progressive in that space. I think

Australians as a society, you know personally, I think we all have a voice and

we need to share that. We don't necessarily need the government to tell us

how to think about certain things. We need to be able to express ourselves

in a way. We are very empowered in this day and age through the

mechanisms we have to express our thoughts but I don't know if we

necessarily take the time to actually, the vast majority of us to take our time

to actually express clearly what we have to say and that leads to quite radical

thinking and dominating the landscape about how our society would work

and I mean, that's my opinion, so I think on the whole as humans I think we

should take a stronger stance and actually care about how we work better

and what's, and to create an inclusive and diverse and respectful society

moving forward.

97. RW We have a question from Laidley. Just what is the one piece of advice you

would give to a local business owner or local business owners. Is there one

piece of advice that you would pass across to the community of Laidley?

98. WD One piece of advice? I, I know it's tough and I think, and it's easy to say just

stick it out and all those sorts of things but the realities of cash flow and

teams and working with people make things very complex but I think keep an

open mind is one thing. I think be decisive in your decision making because

at times I cannot be, sometimes I'm not that and I should be there.

99. RW There's a question from Rockhampton too. What achievement are you

proudest of?

100. WD I think, it's hard to say. I actually really am proud of the evolution of the

company now and to where it's going. I think with our focus is absolutely

right. Rather than hoping that people get the social change we're actually

infusing it in the campaign work that we're getting. I mean, the beauty of

Five Kangaroos or any, those type of initiatives, we really are targeting kids

and the youth around that but we're doing it in a very subtle way and you sort

of hope that they get that. Sometimes they do and sometimes they just enjoy

dancing around like kangaroos, so that's really cool too but to actually get

more targeted information to people and that's really hopefully making their

lives and changing things is quite, it's something I'm very proud of.

101. RW Any final question from the audience? Yes, thank you. Thank you.

102. XX Hello, Wayne. I was just wondering, as you said with Sesame Street they

were looking for content that different to what you produce. How do you go

about approaching a partner that might not necessarily be looking for what it

is that you're doing?

103. WD Yeah. Look, it's, I mean, that's a broader challenge anyway for people. If

you, you know if you don't have a mindset or you don't know what you don't

know then, I mean, they weren't even looking Down Under. They didn't

even, it wasn't even on the radar. They were just, we, mostly didn't really

realise that we, we took their Sesame Street, you know rather than, you

know in other parts of the world, you know South Africa has its own version

of Sesame Street. India has its own version but Australia has American

Sesame Street and Australian kids were learning what the American kids

were doing, so it was really difficult to actually put that to them but you know

it was just really opening your mind to it. Like, we went with a beautiful piece

of art. We deliberately, sometimes much to my despair were overly iconic in

certain things. You know we had to give them the outback. We had to go to

Alice Springs. We had to do this. We had to have boomerangs. We had to

have kangaroos. We went with the best Indigenous singer I could find and I

happen to think she's amazing. You know it just, that was just throw that all

in, make this fantastic cake. If that didn't work then we weren't ever going to

do it. It was just...

104. RW That's right, yeah.

105. WD It was just, a lot of things fell into place and sometimes it's just that bit of

magic. If it, you just smell when something is going to work and they went

oh, wow, we didn't even know that existed, you know. It's just amazing, you

know and that opened the mind and thankfully had some people over there

and I find if you share and have a conversation with people that, and it

probably goes to the core of what we're about. If you have a conversation,

share an idea you'll exchange a message and may be make some

differences to people's lives.

106. RW So any final advice as we, as we leave this to emerging business people,

entrepreneurs, innovators in the audience tonight?

107. WD Yeah, look, really probably just that last point. I think the effective

communication and which really was what, the frustration I why I created

Carbon was like, I said there's got to be a better way to communicate

positive change and make things different. I think we're quite simple beings.

If we sit down and talk and communicate. The type of mechanisms that are

available for us to communicate have been complex and, and ever changing

but at the end of it to have a conversation and share an idea and be

respectful. You know it's allowed my company particularly to put that in the

forefront and succeed and you know we deal with all the real, trials and

tribulations of a business but the ability to communicate I think is the

strongest thing.

108. RW Good. Good. Now to conclude the conversation let's, let's look at this film, S

is for Sibling (video played). Not bad (clapping). Could I just say to the

people in Laidley and Rockhampton, thank you for being with us tonight and

we didn't get to all your questions but thanks so much for all your questions.

Please thank Wayne Denning.

109. WD Thank you. (clapping). Thank you.

110. RW Fantastic, thank you.

111. VM So thank you Wayne and Ray for allowing us to sit in on your conversation

and I think one of the great things about the Game Changer series is the

opportunity to hear first hand from successful leaders about their reflections,

their insights, their experiences and that's certainly what we had the

opportunity this evening to hear from Wayne. And I think for me it was the

clarity of focus around what you wanted to achieve and that being positive

change, so congratulations on everything that you've achieved.

112. WD Thank you.

113. VM If you would like to re-visit this evening's conversation or share it with friends

or colleagues the webcast and transcript will be available on the State Library

of Queensland website within the next week and once again we thank you for

being here tonight and supporting Game Changers and the Queensland

Business Leaders Hall of Fame. And thank you also to everyone at Laidley

and Rockhampton for joining us as well. It's the first time we've done a live

webcast, so we hope it was successful in both of those communities. We'd

also like to invite you along to the next Game Changers conversation which

will be on Wednesday, the 18th of October and Ray will be speaking with

Therese Rein, founder of Ingeus. I hope I've said that right, Ray.

114. RW Yes.

115. VM An international employment service agency assisting job seekers and

particularly long term unemployed people entering the workforce and I'm

sure it's going to be a fantastic conversation as well. So that's on

Wednesday, the 18th of October. So please now we'd like to invite you to join

us on the Queensland Terrace for refreshments which is supported by our

generous sponsors Clovelly Estate and Newstead Brewing Company and

those of you in Rockhampton and Laidley, you also have your own

networking experience as well, so do have a great evening, so thank you

again for joining us this evening. Thank you (clapping).