Multiple DocumentsPart Description1 12 pages2 Exhibit 1 - Lue Alice Abercrombie3 Exhibit 2 - Victoria Banks4 Exhibit 3 - Sandra Beatty5 Exhibit 4 - Josue Berduo6 Exhibit 5- Charlotte Boyd-Malette7 Exhibit 6 - Carnell Brown8 Exhibit 8 - Doris Burke9 Exhibit 9 - Marc Burris10 Exhibit 10 - Emma Carr11 Exhibit 11 - Jason Chislom12 Exhibit 13 - Nadia Cohen13 Exhibit 14 - Carolyn Coleman14 Exhibit 15 - Helen Compton15 Exhibit 16 - Kate Cosner16 Exhibit 17 - Terrilin Cunningham17 Exhibit 20 - Allison Deters18 Exhibit 21 - Michael Gary Dickerson19 Exhibit 22 - Cherise Dill20 Exhibit 23 - Louis Duke21 Exhibit 24 - Sherry Durant22 Exhibit 25 - Hakeem Dykes23 Exhibit 26 - Alexander Ealy24 Exhibit 27 - Armenta Eaton25 Exhibit 29 - Gwendolyn Farrington26 Exhibit 30 - Kelvin Fisher27 Exhibit 31 - Ted Fitzgerald28 Exhibit 32 - Lynnette Garth29 Exhibit 33 - Elizabeth Gignac30 Exhibit 34 - Anna-Patrice Harris31 Exhibit 35 - Bishop Lonnie Gene Hatley32 Exhibit 36 - Rev. Jimmie Hawkins33 Exhibit 37 - Jorgen Jensen34 Exhibit 38 - Carlton Augustus Jordan, Jr.35 Exhibit 40 - Paul Kearns36 Exhibit 42 - William Kittrell37 Exhibit 44 - Brian LiVecchi38 Exhibit 45 - Nancy Lund39 Exhibit 46 - Quisha Mallette

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660

© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 1

40 Exhibit 47 - James Manley41 Exhibit 48 - George McCue42 Exhibit 49 - Bryan McGowan43 Exhibit 51 - Rev. John Mendez44 Exhibit 52 - Brian Miller45 Exhibit 53 - Becky Mock46 Exhibit 54 - Gregory Moss47 Exhibit 56 - Maria Palmer48 Exhibit 57 - Yolanda Paylor49 Exhibit 58 - Mary Perry50 Exhibit 59 - Tawanda Pitt51 Exhibit 60 - Marcia Pleasant52 Exhibit 61 - Cherie Poucher53 Exhibit 62 - Candi Rhinehart54 Exhibit 63 - Dean Roberts55 Exhibit 64 - Susan Schaffer56 Exhibit 66 - Gary Sims57 Exhibit 67 - Brandi Smith58 Exhibit 69 - Gerrick Suggs59 Exhibit 70 - Kelly Thomas60 Exhibit 71 - Marshall Tutor61 Exhibit 72 - Lynne Vernon-Feagans62 Exhibit 73 - Lynne Walter63 Exhibit 74 - Bessie Ward64 Exhibit 75 - Timothy Washington65 Exhibit 76 - Yvonne Washington66 Exhibit 78- Barbara Webb67 Exhibit 79 - Ebony West68 Exhibit 80 - Stephanie Williams69 Exhibit 81 - Malcolm Wilson

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660

© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 2

·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA·2

·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)

19· ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,· · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)20· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)21· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV861· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)22· ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)23· · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)· · ·____________________________________)24

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 26

Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1

·2· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER

·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Taken by Defendants)

·4· · · · · · · ·Chapel Hill, North Carolina

·5· · · · · · · · · · · March 13, 2015

·6

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10· ·Reported by:· Lynn A. Ruggiro,

· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter

11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public

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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:·3· · · · · ·Christopher J. Maner, Esquire· · · · · · ·Madelyn A. Morris, Esquire·4· · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP· · · · · · ·655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.·5· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·(202) 879-5218·6· · · · · ·christopher.maner@kirkland.com· · · · · · ·madelyn.morris@kirkland.com·7·8· · · · · ·Denise Lieberman, Esquire· · · · · · ·Advancement Project·9· · · · · ·Suite 850· · · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.10· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·(314) 780-183311· · · · · ·dlieberman@advancementproject.com12· · · · · ·Penda D. Hair, Esquire (via telephone)· · · · · · ·Jasmine Richardson, Esquire (via telephone)13· · · · · ·ADVANCEMENT PROJECT· · · · · · ·Suite 85014· · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 2000515· · · · · ·phair@advancementproject.com· · · · · · ·jrichardson@advancementproject.com1617· ·Counsel for United States of America:18· · · · · ·Judybeth Greene, Esquire· · · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE19· · · · · ·Civil Rights Division· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW20· · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20530· · · · · · ·(202) 616-235021· · · · · ·judybeth.greene@usdoj.gov22232425

Page 4·1· ·Counsel for the Defendants State Board of Elections:

·2· · · · · ·Michael D. McKnight, Esquire

· · · · · · ·OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

·3· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100

· · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 27609

·4· · · · · ·(919) 787-9700

· · · · · · ·michael.mcknight@odness.com

·5

·6

·7· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER, taken by

·8· ·the Defendants, at the Law Offices of TIN, FULTER, WALKER &

·9· ·OWEN, 312 West Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, North Carolina,

10· ·on the 13th day of March, 2015 at 9:37 a.m. before Lynn A.

11· ·Ruggiro, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter.

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS

·2· ·THE WITNESS: Maria Teresa Unger Palmer· · · EXAMINATION

·3· · · ·BY: Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6

·4· · · ·BY: Mr. Maner· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 93

·5

·6

·7· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS

·8· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·9· ·Exhibit 8· · ·Plaintiffs' Responses & Objections

10· · · · · · · · ·to Defendants' First Set of

11· · · · · · · · ·Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · · · 13

12· ·Exhibit 9· · ·Maria Unger Palmer's Driver's License

13· · · · · · · · ·and Voter Identification Card· · · · · 70

14· ·Exhibit 10· · Declaration of Maria Teresa Unger

15· · · · · · · · ·Palmer· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·83

16· ·Exhibit 11· · WCHL Commentary· · · · · · · · · · · · 92

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 2 of 26

Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·PROCEEDINGS

·2· · · · · · · · MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER,

·3· ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

·4· · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

·5· · · BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·6· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Ms. Palmer.· We met a moment

·7· ·ago.· My name is Michael McKnight and I represent

·8· ·the State Board of Elections, Defendants in this

·9· ·matter along with the North Carolina Attorney

10· ·General's Office, and we're here today to take your

11· ·deposition in a lawsuit known as the North Carolina

12· ·State Conference of the NAACP versus McCrory.· And

13· ·that suit is pending in Federal Court in the Middle

14· ·District of North Carolina.

15· · · · · · ·And at this time, I'll let the counsel for

16· ·the Plaintiffs who are here and here by telephone

17· ·introduce themselves.

18· · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN:· Good morning, my name is

19· ·Denise Lieberman with Advancement Project here on

20· ·behalf of the North Carolina State Conference of the

21· ·NAACP.

22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Chris Maner with Kirkland and

23· · · · Ellis on behalf of the witness, Maria Palmer.

24· · · · · · ·MS. GREENE: Judybeth Greene on behalf of

25· · · · the United States Department of Justice on

Page 7·1· · · · behalf of the United States.

·2· · · · · · ·MS. MORRIS: Madelyn Morris, Kirkland and

·3· · · · Ellis, on behalf of the NAACP plaintiffs.

·4· · · · · · ·MR. LIEBERMAN:· On the phone?

·5· · · · · · ·MS. HAIR: Hi, this is Penda Hair with

·6· · · · Advancement Project on behalf of the North

·7· · · · Carolina NAACP at this number.

·8· · · · · · ·MS. RICHARDSON: This is Jasmine Richardson

·9· · · · from Advancement Project on behalf of the North

10· · · · Carolina NAACP.

11· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

12· · · · Q.· ·All right, thank you everybody.

13· · · · · · ·Ms. Palmer, we're here today to take your

14· ·deposition because you're named as a plaintiff in

15· ·the lawsuit that challenges a law that was passed in

16· ·2013 that is referred to in this lawsuit as House

17· ·Bill 589.· Are you familiar with that law?

18· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.

19· · · · Q.· ·And so if I mention House Bill 589 during

20· ·the course of our conversation today, will you know

21· ·what I'm referring to?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I will, I do.

23· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever had your deposition

24· ·taken before?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes.

Page 8·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in what context?

·2· · · · A.· ·As best I can remember, it was a complaint

·3· ·or -- a lawsuit against Bluefield State College in

·4· ·Bluefield, West Virginia and the -- I filed a

·5· ·complaint with the state because the college did not

·6· ·offer me a position after my six months probationary

·7· ·period and I -- the state found that I had been

·8· ·discriminated against and provided an attorney for

·9· ·me, and the college took my sworn testimony as to

10· ·what had happened.

11· · · · Q.· ·So you were a plaintiff in that case?

12· · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was in West Virginia you

14· ·said?

15· · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the outcome of that

17· ·case, was it settled or was there a judgment entered

18· ·at some point?

19· · · · A.· ·There was a judgment in my favor.

20· · · · Q.· ·And was that in state or federal court in

21· ·West virginia, if you remember?

22· · · · A.· ·It would be the equivalent here of an

23· ·administrative court, I would think.

24· · · · Q.· ·I see.

25· · · · A.· ·Because it was the state against the

Page 9·1· ·state.

·2· · · · Q.· ·I see.· So the bottom line is you

·3· ·understand what goes on in a deposition then and you

·4· ·understand that you have an obligation to testify

·5· ·truthfully today?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I've translated for many depositions.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Terrific.· Terrific.· So is there any

·8· ·reason why you cannot testify truthfully today?

·9· · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · Q.· ·Good.· And so the other thing I would ask

11· ·is that if you don't hear or understand one of my

12· ·questions, will you ask me to repeat it?

13· · · · A.· ·Absolutely.

14· · · · Q.· ·And I'll assume too that if you don't ask

15· ·me to repeat one of my questions, that you

16· ·understand it.· Is that fair?

17· · · · A.· ·That's fair.

18· · · · Q.· ·And we can certainly take a break at any

19· ·time if you need to in today's conversation, but I

20· ·would ask that if I have a question pending that you

21· ·answer that question before we take a break.· Is

22· ·that fair?

23· · · · A.· ·That's fair.

24· · · · Q.· ·Did you do anything to prepare for this

25· ·deposition today?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 3 of 26

Page 10·1· · · · A.· ·I read all the literature that I have.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was any of that literature used

·3· ·by you to refresh your recollection as to any of the

·4· ·facts in this case?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically can you name any

·7· ·of the pieces of literature that you reviewed?

·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know if I can discuss them because

·9· ·some of it is communication with my lawyers.

10· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer with respect to

11· · · · the documents that you looked at.

12· · · · A.· ·Okay.· It was -- there's a thing called

13· ·Interrogatory and I reread that.· I reread the bill,

14· ·I reread the -- the information that we have put out

15· ·about why we are filing this lawsuit.· I want to say

16· ·PR but it's not PR but it's more like press

17· ·releases.

18· · · · Q.· ·And you say "we" who's we?

19· · · · A.· ·The NAACP.

20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else that you can recall?

21· · · · A.· ·Not really, that I have read, no.

22· · · · Q.· ·And besides your attorney, did you speak

23· ·with anyone about this deposition today?

24· · · · A.· ·Only to say that I'm coming, my husband

25· ·and my daughter know I'm here.

Page 11·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And we discussed a moment ago that

·2· ·you had been a plaintiff in a lawsuit against, I

·3· ·think Bluefield State College in West Virginia; is

·4· ·that right?

·5· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Have you been a party to any other

·7· ·lawsuits other than that lawsuit?

·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know if you're counting like being

·9· ·a guardian ad litem, is that.....

10· · · · Q.· ·No, I mean is that something that you've

11· ·done frequently?

12· · · · A.· ·No, a couple of times.

13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

14· · · · A.· ·I have been a character witness because I

15· ·was a pastor.

16· · · · Q.· ·I see.

17· · · · A.· ·For several -- for many years actually

18· ·and, you know, custody issues, a couple of criminal

19· ·cases where one of the people involved were members

20· ·of my church or of the community here.

21· · · · Q.· ·But you weren't a party in any of those

22· ·cases, were you?

23· · · · A.· ·No.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you've never been convicted of

25· ·any crime of any type or anything like that?

Page 12·1· · · · A.· ·The Moral Monday that was dismissed, the

·2· ·trespassing.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you were arrested as part of the

·4· ·Moral Monday protest?

·5· · · · A.· ·Right, I was with the first group and we

·6· ·were convicted and then that was -- I don't know

·7· ·what it's called when they found that, because of

·8· ·what the Supreme Court ruled on another case, they

·9· ·came back and threw out all of those cases.

10· · · · Q.· ·I see.· I understand what you're saying.

11· · · · A.· ·Okay.

12· · · · Q.· ·That's good enough.· Do you know when that

13· ·arrest occurred?

14· · · · A.· ·Wow, time goes faster than it seems like,

15· ·we're in 2015, I think that was 2013, right?· Moral

16· ·Monday started two years ago in, I'm pretty sure

17· ·July.· Well, we were arrested in May and it was this

18· ·summer, so 2014 we were convicted.· So yes, it took

19· ·about a year for all the charges and everything and

20· ·we were cleared in 2014, convicted and cleared in

21· ·2014.

22· · · · Q.· ·So you thought -- you think you were

23· ·arrested in 2013 some time?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes, because it took a long time to get

25· ·back to court.· We went back like three times at

Page 13·1· ·least and it kept getting postponed.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Were you arrested at the General Assembly

·3· ·Building in Raleigh?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to hand you then the

·6· ·first document I want to talk with you about today

·7· ·and I'm going to mark it as NAACP Exhibit 8, and I'm

·8· ·going to give you a copy here and certainly copies

·9· ·to your counsel.

10· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 8 WAS MARKED FOR

11· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

12· · · · Q.· ·And the reason why, Ms. Palmer, this is

13· ·marked as Exhibit 8 is that we've had some

14· ·depositions in this case yesterday that had Exhibits

15· ·1 through 7 and we're just numbering them

16· ·consecutively.

17· · · · A.· ·Okay.

18· · · · Q.· ·So we're not hiding anything from you or

19· ·anything like that, that's just -- they were just

20· ·depo -- exhibits rather that we used in depositions

21· ·earlier in the case.

22· · · · A.· ·Sure.

23· · · · Q.· ·So the first Interrogatory response I want

24· ·to direct your attention to is just Interrogatory

25· ·Number 1, and I believe that you said that you had

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 4 of 26

Page 14·1· ·reviewed these Interrogatory responses before the

·2· ·deposition today; is that correct?

·3· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And did you provide the responses to each

·5· ·of these Interrogatories?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And I see here in response to

·8· ·Interrogatory 1 you responded that your full legal

·9· ·name is Maria Teresa Unger Palmer; is that correct?

10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.· I don't see a number one

11· ·but it is correct, that that's my name.

12· · · · Q.· ·Oh, I think --

13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Sorry, what page are we on,

14· · · · Michael?

15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Well, there's no page

16· · · · numbers but I'm looking at Interrogatory Number

17· · · · 1.

18· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay.· I've got that.· Yes.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

20· · · · A.· ·Definitely.

21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So that is your correct name?

22· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is this your correct address,

24· ·303 Forbush Mountain Drive, Chapel Hill?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes, that's correct.

Page 15·1· · · · Q.· ·How long have you lived at that address?

·2· · · · A.· ·Eighteen years, almost eighteen and a half

·3· ·years.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And have you been registered to vote at

·5· ·that address the whole time you've been registered

·6· ·to vote?

·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·9· · · · A.· ·Well, I was registered to vote before then

10· ·too.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, that's a bad question.

12· · · · · · ·Have you been registered to vote the whole

13· ·time you lived at that address?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.

16· · · · · · ·And before that address, what other places

17· ·have you lived?

18· · · · A.· ·How far back?

19· · · · Q.· ·Well, I know you were born in Peru, for

20· ·example.

21· · · · A.· ·That's right.

22· · · · Q.· ·And then I think did you -- you moved to

23· ·Alabama?

24· · · · A.· ·Okay, starting backward -- starting from

25· ·here.

Page 16·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·West Virginia.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·4· · · · A.· ·I worked in Virginia and lived in West

·5· ·Virginia, before that Kentucky.· We were eight years

·6· ·where I did graduate school and pastored a church

·7· ·and worked for the University of Louisville.· Before

·8· ·that, we actually lived in a whole bunch of places

·9· ·because we worked with migrant farm workers.· My

10· ·husband and I were doing ministry, so we moved about

11· ·14 times, but mostly in the states of Virginia and

12· ·Kentucky and we lived one summer in Arizona working

13· ·over there.· But before that, college in

14· ·Jacksonville, Alabama.· Seems like I'm skipping some

15· ·state but I'm trying -- no, I think that's the big

16· ·chunks.

17· · · · Q.· ·That's good enough.

18· · · · A.· ·Okay.

19· · · · Q.· ·Now, in those states that you listed, in

20· ·any of those states, did you engage in any kind of

21· ·voter registration or voter education efforts?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.· It started in Kentucky.

23· ·Well, actually in Alabama, I was not a citizen, but

24· ·I got caught up in all of the politics because I was

25· ·in college and I was a reporter for the newspaper,

Page 17·1· ·so I would report on political activities, but I

·2· ·wasn't engaged in the sense of -- I remember one

·3· ·time I went to report on the Young Republicans in

·4· ·college and they asked me if I could sit for the

·5· ·picture so it looked like they had more members and

·6· ·I've regretted that ever since.· But, you know, I

·7· ·was at all the rallies and people would say you're

·8· ·here because you care about the issue and yes and

·9· ·every -- I was a non partisan observer.

10· · · · · · ·Then I moved, I got married, I moved to --

11· ·I started doing ministry and I saw the impact of

12· ·political decisions on the lives of people and I

13· ·started to get involved.· And that's part of the

14· ·reason I became a citizen.· So I would say I started

15· ·to get involved in about 1980, '81 about 20, 21

16· ·years old, finishing college.

17· · · · Q.· ·And so you got started then and you're

18· ·referring to getting started with voter engagement,

19· ·voter registration and then is it general politics

20· ·too or how would you describe what you're talking

21· ·about?

22· · · · A.· ·Attending debates, I did do some studying

23· ·of the issues and questioning candidates.· I was in

24· ·seminary in Louisville, very interested in the

25· ·immigration reform at that time.· Romano Mazzoli was

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 5 of 26

Page 18·1· ·running for Congress, he was promising immigration

·2· ·reform.· So I would say advocacy, I would say yes,

·3· ·voter registration of seminary students, college

·4· ·students.· I did some campaigning for Walter

·5· ·Mondale, that kind of thing.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And so I think you said it started in

·7· ·Kentucky really.

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And then what other states other than

10· ·North Carolina have you engaged in those activities?

11· · · · A.· ·More in local politics, so for example, in

12· ·West Virginia, there were -- just attending

13· ·information meetings, supporting, you know, the

14· ·League of Women Voters debates.· I worked for six

15· ·months at Bluefield State College trying to get the

16· ·students to organize some information on voter

17· ·registration sessions, that kind of thing.

18· · · · Q.· ·I see.· And did you say that you thought

19· ·the year you started these things was in 1980?

20· · · · A.· ·Right.· No, I moved to Kentucky in '83.

21· ·It was closer -- in 1980, it was -- I was still in

22· ·Alabama and just getting -- I was reporting on

23· ·things.· It was -- it was 1983, '84.· Sorry.· Giving

24· ·myself more credit.

25· · · · Q.· ·That's all right.

Page 19·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Well, the next Interrogatory --

·3· · · · A.· ·I think the big election that I got more

·4· ·involved in was '84, yeah, with voter registration

·5· ·and all that.

·6· · · · Q.· ·I see.· Where were you, just out of

·7· ·curiosity, in '84?

·8· · · · A.· ·Kentucky, Louisville, Louisville,

·9· ·Kentucky.

10· · · · Q.· ·The next Interrogatory I'm going to ask

11· ·you about is Interrogatory 5 and it's down the list

12· ·here.

13· · · · A.· ·Okay.

14· · · · Q.· ·It's at the top of a page.

15· · · · A.· ·Okay.

16· · · · Q.· ·And this Interrogatory just asks you to

17· ·describe any problems you have encountered while

18· ·attempting to vote in any North Carolina election.

19· ·And I know that these Interrogatories were submitted

20· ·some time in early 2014.

21· · · · A.· ·Right.

22· · · · Q.· ·So I want to -- part of my purpose in

23· ·asking you these questions today, these

24· ·Interrogatories, is to make sure these answers are

25· ·still accurate as we sit here today --

Page 20·1· · · · A.· ·Sure.

·2· · · · Q.· ·-- in 2015.· So with respect to this

·3· ·question about whether you had encountered any

·4· ·problems in any North Carolina election, you stated

·5· ·that you had not encountered any problems

·6· ·personally.· Is that still true today?

·7· · · · A.· ·That's true, still true today.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And you also said though that you had

·9· ·witnessed voters who had encountered problems while

10· ·attempting to vote.· And can you tell me about what

11· ·sorts of problems you've witnessed?

12· · · · A.· ·Well, the 2014 election, that was very

13· ·disappointing to see how many people got turned

14· ·away.· I helped give information at the little

15· ·tables in front of, you know, the poling places for

16· ·the Democratic Party and so a lot of people that

17· ·expected to be able to register and vote who came to

18· ·early voting and were told, no, we're sorry.· And

19· ·they were convinced that no, I read in the newspaper

20· ·that the Court said we could still do it.· No, but

21· ·there was another decision and they were pretty mad,

22· ·including my son, and I couldn't believe I had been

23· ·doing, you know, voter registration and all these

24· ·things and hadn't asked my son.· He was living in

25· ·the mountains and graduated from college earlier and

Page 21·1· ·he had been registered in Boone, in Watauga County

·2· ·and then wasn't living there anymore, and he said,

·3· ·"Mom, I can't vote."

·4· · · · · · ·Anyway, I saw -- I met quite a few people

·5· ·who were turned away.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And other than the people that you met who

·7· ·were turned away this year, I'm sorry, not this year

·8· ·but in the 2014 election.

·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.

10· · · · Q.· ·And you're thinking of people who were

11· ·turned away during the 2014 general election in

12· ·November; is that correct?

13· · · · A.· ·Those people I'm talking about, yes. I

14· ·think what my answer referred to were people who had

15· ·had problems, for example, their name was not in

16· ·there and they were given a provisional ballot or

17· ·that kind of thing.· Before 2014, I had never seen

18· ·somebody who was told we absolutely won't take your

19· ·vote, but I had met people who had encountered

20· ·problems and I thought that was -- I'm sure that's

21· ·the question I was answering to.· This election,

22· ·2014, I did see people being turned away and told

23· ·you cannot vote.

24· · · · Q.· ·And you mentioned something a moment ago

25· ·about someone's name not being there, words to that

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 6 of 26

Page 22·1· ·effect.

·2· · · · A.· ·Right.

·3· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?

·4· · · · A.· ·You know, when you go to vote, they ask

·5· ·you your name and your address and you tell them and

·6· ·they look you up in a book and they write a number

·7· ·and put it on a ballot and give it to you and then

·8· ·you give that.· So I have taken many people to the

·9· ·poles, including many people who have limited

10· ·English, so I explain what's going to happen.· Then

11· ·they come out and say they couldn't find my name in

12· ·the book, and I'll go in with them and the person

13· ·will explain, "Well, you know, we can give him a

14· ·provisional ballot."· This happened to a person I

15· ·know in this last election and they couldn't give

16· ·him a provisional ballot, but in times before, it

17· ·was fair very simple because you -- because many of

18· ·the people who I was giving rides to, I had

19· ·registered, you know.· There were people that when I

20· ·had gone canvassing to register new voters, I had

21· ·left my phone number saying if you need

22· ·transportation to the poles, give me a call.· So I

23· ·knew they were registered.· So they would say well,

24· ·he can have a provisional ballot or she can have a

25· ·provisional ballot.· In 2014, those people had to

Page 23·1· ·try to figure out what had gone wrong and what was

·2· ·the right precinct.· In the case of the person I'm

·3· ·thinking of, of William, they said well, we think

·4· ·that maybe it's not Binkley Church where he has to

·5· ·vote, we think that it's Church of Rec on Elliott

·6· ·Road, so he should go over there and try to vote

·7· ·over there, see if his name is there.

·8· · · · · · ·So somebody, a volunteer from the church

·9· ·took him and I don't know if he got to vote.· But in

10· ·this -- in this question that was asking about

11· ·before the elections, I am sure that I was thinking

12· ·when I answered that Interrogatory, I was thinking

13· ·of people, you know, who got provisional ballots or

14· ·who were told are you sure you registered?· You

15· ·know, what address did you put or something or have

16· ·you moved, you know, that kind of thing.

17· · · · Q.· ·But all of the problems you were thinking

18· ·about that you had witnessed, what elections were

19· ·you thinking about that they had occurred in when

20· ·you completed these Interrogatories?

21· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

22· · · · Q.· ·Let me -- let me ask the question in a

23· ·more clear way.· That wasn't a clear question.

24· · · · A.· ·Okay.

25· · · · Q.· ·When you completed these Interrogatories,

Page 24·1· ·what election were you thinking these problems

·2· ·occurred in?

·3· · · · A.· ·I'm sure I could come up with examples

·4· ·from all -- all the elections I've helped in, or I

·5· ·cannot remember an election that I have not

·6· ·volunteered in some big or small way, you know, so

·7· ·I -- I -- the sheet of paper they give the poling

·8· ·place for translation problems, that has my phone

·9· ·number.· So I have, you know -- and I call a bank of

10· ·lawyers who volunteer on election -- at election

11· ·time, I think it's the Bar Association, I don't know

12· ·who provides them but I know they're a bunch of UNC

13· ·lawyers from the law school there too, and so if I

14· ·don't know the answer, I'll call them and then I

15· ·call back and I say you can do this.· So I get

16· ·questions and problems.· It's not unusual for me to

17· ·be asked about something that I'm not even there to

18· ·witness, but because somebody is being asked by a

19· ·person, can I vote, I only sent my registration, you

20· ·know, five weeks ago and I never got my little card

21· ·and, you know, and the person doesn't speak much

22· ·English, so the volunteer there at the table will

23· ·dial my number and hand the phone to the person.

24· · · · Q.· ·And you provide translation services?

25· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm just a volunteer, I mean, all

Page 25·1· ·this is through the Orange County Democratic Party.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, who do you provide translation

·3· ·services for?· I think you mentioned you did it at a

·4· ·poling place?

·5· · · · A.· ·Well, wherever I am, I mean all of the --

·6· ·I'm a member of the Executive Committee of the

·7· ·Orange County Democratic Party.· If you are a

·8· ·volunteer, precint captain or whatever and you run

·9· ·into a problem and you speak no Spanish, you would

10· ·have my phone number to call me, and ask, "Maria,

11· ·can you talk to this person?· I don't know what his

12· ·or her problem is."· Then I would talk to that

13· ·person and explain to you what the problem is.

14· · · · Q.· ·I see.· So you're not providing

15· ·translation services for the Orange County Board of

16· ·Elections, are you?

17· · · · A.· ·Oh, no, no, no, no.

18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

19· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· I'm sorry to interrupt you,

20· · · · did somebody join the call?· I heard somebody

21· · · · beep in.

22· · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN: I think someone got off.

23· · · · A.· ·I'm not paid a translator, sorry.

24· · · · Q.· ·But if someone contacts the Orange County

25· ·Democratic Party and says I need some translation

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 7 of 26

Page 26·1· ·services in order to vote, you're a volunteer that

·2· ·they can call upon to get --

·3· · · · A.· ·Exactly, there are about three of us, I

·4· ·think, but most people have my cell phone.

·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And before 2014 --

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·-- before either the primary, the general

·8· ·2014, what sorts of problems, if any, did you

·9· ·observe voters having when they attempted to vote?

10· · · · A.· ·Well, they didn't know where to vote, so

11· ·we tried to figure out, you know -- I became really

12· ·good at putting in addresses and figuring out where

13· ·they needed to vote.· They had not gotten their card

14· ·or they had not updated their address, they had

15· ·moved to another apartment.· This is really common,

16· ·you know, Latinos move when there's a two month free

17· ·rent in an apartment complex, you know, you're going

18· ·to find they're relocating.· They don't know they

19· ·still, you know, can vote, that kind of thing.

20· · · · Q.· ·And so those problems existed before 2014;

21· ·is that right?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, absolutely.

23· · · · Q.· ·And before 2014, what other sorts of

24· ·problems did you observe based upon your experience

25· ·voters having in North Carolina?

Page 27·1· · · · A.· ·Well, are you just talking about people

·2· ·trying to get to vote or at the poles?· Because

·3· ·problems like transportation, you know, trying to

·4· ·figure out when is early voting, where do I vote,

·5· ·how do I, you know, get there, those things I've

·6· ·spent a lot of time with but are you just talking at

·7· ·the poles when they are there to vote or are you

·8· ·talking about the whole Latino community?

·9· · · · Q.· ·Well, let's talk about just at the poles

10· ·for now.

11· · · · A.· ·Okay.

12· · · · Q.· ·What problems did you observe if any at

13· ·the poles before 2014?

14· · · · A.· ·Mostly just that -- that peoples' names

15· ·might not be on there and they might need a

16· ·provisional ballot or they might want to figure out

17· ·exactly, you know, where they were supposed to vote

18· ·or that kind of thing.

19· · · · Q.· ·Any other problems at the poles that you

20· ·can recall that you observed before 2014?

21· · · · A.· ·With -- I'm trying to think about early

22· ·registration, sometimes new citizens, you know, the

23· ·first time when you go to register in person, they

24· ·can ask you for identification, to show that you

25· ·have a right to vote there and some confusion as to

Page 28·1· ·what would be appropriate, because you might have a

·2· ·Social Security card but you could be a permanent

·3· ·resident and have a Social Security card, so what

·4· ·documentation they can provide.· And I've had people

·5· ·that show up with their naturalization certificate

·6· ·and that -- that proves that you're a citizen but it

·7· ·doesn't prove where you live, you know, in the

·8· ·county and just different things, trying to

·9· ·sometimes second-guess if what they present, you

10· ·know, trying to -- for me to remember, is this going

11· ·to be okay, especially when we did voter

12· ·registration and people were saying "Okay, I can go

13· ·right now during early voting," you know, and you're

14· ·canvassing a neighborhood and people say, "Well, I'm

15· ·not registered, I don't know."

16· · · · · · ·And we say, "Would you like to register

17· ·today?"

18· · · · · · ·"Well, what do I need to bring?"

19· · · · · · ·"Well, what documents do you have?"

20· · · · · · ·"Oh, I have my New Jersey driver's

21· ·license, I just moved here last month, you know." I

22· ·haven't -- so that kind of -- well, did you sign a

23· ·lease, what, you know, that kind of thing.· So going

24· ·to the poles with people and explaining to the

25· ·people at the poles who they are, where they live,

Page 29·1· ·you know, that kind of thing.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So to help people vote in the past, you

·3· ·have helped them figure out what documents in terms

·4· ·of identification they needed to take with them to

·5· ·register to vote?

·6· · · · A.· ·Right.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And then in some cases, you've gone with

·8· ·them to the poling places to help them understand

·9· ·the process or explain the documents they have?

10· · · · A.· ·Right.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And any other problems that you

12· ·remember observing yourself before 2014?

13· · · · A.· ·At the poles?

14· · · · Q.· ·At the poles.

15· · · · A.· ·I don't think -- I am sorry, I can't

16· ·remember other things.· I might -- probably if I go

17· ·home, some incident might come to mind but right

18· ·now, I think that I'm, you know.....

19· · · · Q.· ·That's what comes to mind?

20· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in the 2014 election, what

22· ·problems did you personally observe at the poles

23· ·with respect to voting?

24· · · · A.· ·The main thing was people believing that

25· ·they could register during early voting.· That was

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 26

Page 30·1· ·huge.· And kids saying but, you know, I registered

·2· ·at school or I was in high school when I got my

·3· ·license, I registered, and but they're a student at

·4· ·you UNC now, so they're registering in the wrong

·5· ·county.· And I remember one girl was crying, she was

·6· ·from Charlotte and the best they could tell her was,

·7· ·"Well, since that's still your parents' residence,

·8· ·you could go to Charlotte and vote there."· And she

·9· ·was a freshman and she couldn't drive -- well, she

10· ·didn't have a car, they're not allowed to have cars

11· ·and, you know, she -- she couldn't get back to

12· ·Charlotte to vote.· So -- and she said, "But I asked

13· ·and they told us we won the lawsuit."· And she was,

14· ·you know, really upset, so -- but there were kids

15· ·everyday, everyday being told they couldn't register

16· ·and vote.

17· · · · Q.· ·I think we asked in a later Interrogatory

18· ·here if you had ever served as a pole observer and

19· ·you had said at that time that you had not served as

20· ·a pole observer.· Did you serve as a pole observer

21· ·in any capacity in 2014?

22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

23· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.

24· · · · A.· ·The -- no, what I was doing at the poles

25· ·was manning or womaning the table for the Orange

Page 31·1· ·County Democratic Party.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So your experience at the poles during the

·3· ·2014 election cycle and is this -- did you man the

·4· ·Orange County Democratic Party table for the primary

·5· ·election and for the general election or just for

·6· ·the general election?

·7· · · · A.· ·Both.· Well, not -- there's not just one

·8· ·table, we have tables at all the poling places.

·9· ·Sometimes you don't have enough people to cover all

10· ·the poling places, but early voting, there's only

11· ·three -- no, four places in the county, so you take

12· ·your turns, you know.· So sometimes I was at the

13· ·senior center, sometimes I was right here, actually

14· ·one street over on Cameron Avenue at the Halal

15· ·Foundation, I was there a lot.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I think the incident or the

17· ·problem that you're speaking about is people being

18· ·confused about whether they could register to vote

19· ·during their early voting period --

20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

21· · · · Q.· ·-- was an issue that was isolated to the

22· ·2014 general election in November; is that right?

23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And during the 2014 general

25· ·election, you weren't a pole observer inside the

Page 32·1· ·poling place, were you?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· ·You were working a table for the Orange

·4· ·County Democratic Party outside of the poling place,

·5· ·right?

·6· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And that poling place was an early voting

·8· ·location here in Chapel Hill at the Halal Center; is

·9· ·that right?

10· · · · A.· ·That was one of the poling places, I also

11· ·took turns in Town Hall in Carrboro.

12· · · · Q.· ·And how much would you say that you worked

13· ·the Orange County Democratic Party table during the

14· ·early voting period during the -- before the 2014

15· ·general election?

16· · · · A.· ·I went by almost everyday to see if they

17· ·needed help.· I took turns of two to four hours,

18· ·depending on what was needed, maybe five of the ten

19· ·days, you know.

20· · · · Q.· ·And you said that the main problem that

21· ·you observed when you were working those tables

22· ·during early voting is that people thought they

23· ·could register and vote during the early voting

24· ·period; is that right?

25· · · · A.· ·That or that they thought that they were

Page 33·1· ·registered and that they could vote.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And how many people would you say had a

·3· ·problem or were confused about whether they could

·4· ·register and vote during their early voting period?

·5· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

·6· · · · A.· ·I -- I wish everyday that I had taken

·7· ·names down of people, but every shift I took, there

·8· ·were a few.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And by a few, can you put a number on

10· ·that?

11· · · · A.· ·The first day I was at the Halal, I

12· ·remember by the time six or seven students had been

13· ·turned away, I was on the phone calling, saying,

14· ·"This is crazy.· Can't we do something?· Kids are

15· ·crying.· Kids who this is their first election, you

16· ·know, and they can't vote.· They're so disappointed,

17· ·they're so angry, what can we do to help them?" I

18· ·was trying to figure out can we car pool, you know,

19· ·to the big cities that kids come from for them to go

20· ·home and vote.· So I know it was enough students

21· ·that I was getting really upset.· So -- but I don't

22· ·know -- I don't -- I remember an older, wiser

23· ·gentleman coming to replace me, you know, you're not

24· ·going to solve this problem right now.· This is, you

25· ·know, a larger legal issue and, you know, so I try

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 26

Page 34·1· ·not to get really angry and upset and -- and -- and

·2· ·try to attack problems that are bigger than me and

·3· ·that I felt was one of them, so.....

·4· · · · Q.· ·But you can't put a number on the number

·5· ·of people that you encountered during your early

·6· ·voting experience in the 2014 general election who

·7· ·could not vote because of some misunderstanding

·8· ·about whether they can register and vote the same

·9· ·day during their early voting period?

10· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

11· · · · A.· ·No, I can't put a number.

12· · · · Q.· ·And you said you thought there were six or

13· ·seven students that first day that you worked at

14· ·Halal during the early voting period who were turned

15· ·away, is the way you put it?

16· · · · A.· ·In the first two hours that I was there,

17· ·yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by "turned away"?

19· · · · A.· ·They were not allowed to vote.

20· · · · Q.· ·And do you know the reasons why any of

21· ·those students were not allowed to vote?

22· · · · A.· ·They were not registered in Orange County

23· ·or their name did not appear as being registered in

24· ·Orange County.

25· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if it would have been

Page 35·1· ·appropriate for them to register to vote in Orange

·2· ·County?

·3· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, those students lived in -- were

·5· ·living in Orange County, some were grad students who

·6· ·had relocated.· There were people who -- who were

·7· ·some permanent residents of Orange County now that

·8· ·had started working at the university.· It wasn't

·9· ·all students.· I was mad -- I had been a high school

10· ·teacher and I was really mad for the kids who this

11· ·was their first election, who were full of

12· ·enthusiasm and, you know, wanted to participate in

13· ·civic life, but they were new employees to the

14· ·university, there were, you know, different people.

15· ·I was in my teacher mode, I think, thinking about

16· ·these kids and their civic engagement, that's why

17· ·I'm focusing on them, but there were -- there were

18· ·Latino immigrants too.· One gentleman that came to

19· ·vote comes to mind.

20· · · · Q.· ·Do you know the names of any of these

21· ·individuals you encountered during your time working

22· ·the table for the Orange County Democratic Party

23· ·during the early voting period?

24· · · · A.· ·No, I regret that I didn't take down

25· ·names, I really do.· And I wondered well, no, in

Page 36·1· ·fact, I know that I asked to talk to the guy in

·2· ·charge of the poling place and asked him if they

·3· ·were keeping count of how many people were turned

·4· ·away and reporting that, because I thought that was

·5· ·important.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And what did he tell you?

·7· · · · A.· ·No, they were not.· And that's when I

·8· ·should have gotten my piece of paper out.

·9· · · · Q.· ·But you did not go inside the poling place

10· ·with any of these people that you talked to; is that

11· ·correct?

12· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

13· · · · A.· ·That is correct.

14· · · · Q.· ·And so you don't know firsthand what was

15· ·said between the voter and the officials in the

16· ·poling place; is that right?

17· · · · A.· ·Well, they reported to me what had been

18· ·said.· They said, "I can't vote."· They said, "You

19· ·know, I, you know, if I'm registered in another

20· ·county, I can't, it's too late."· People told me is

21· ·it true that I can't, you know, register.· Most of

22· ·them were trying to confirm with us what they had

23· ·been told inside.

24· · · · Q.· ·So people would come outside the poling

25· ·place and talk to you at the Orange County

Page 37·1· ·Democratic Party table; is that right?

·2· · · · A.· ·They're actually -- a lot of the time

·3· ·there was -- not a lot.· Some of the time there was

·4· ·not a Republican table but there was -- there was a

·5· ·lot of the time a Republican table, next, and they

·6· ·would say the same thing.· They wouldn't just talk

·7· ·to the Democratic table, they would ask, you know,

·8· ·the people that -- the candidates, for example,

·9· ·because there were some candidates over there, you

10· ·know, shaking hands asking for votes.· I would have

11· ·voted for you but I really couldn't and this

12· ·happened and, you know, so they would come and ask

13· ·the folks that were out front.· I guess they thought

14· ·since we were campaigning or, you know, giving

15· ·sample ballots and all that that we knew what was

16· ·what.· So they were coming to complain to us that

17· ·they couldn't vote.

18· · · · Q.· ·But you --

19· · · · A.· ·To see if we could do something about it.

20· · · · Q.· ·But you can't put a number on the number

21· ·of conversations that occurred like that?

22· · · · A.· ·No.· I have the feeling that many of those

23· ·students went back, that after that first day and

24· ·told their friends and that the number would have

25· ·been much bigger if everybody who thought they could

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 10 of 26

Page 38·1· ·vote would have tried, but after, you know, you see

·2· ·people being turned away, they're going to go back

·3· ·and they don't have their sticker, you know, I

·4· ·voted, so that was part of what made me mad, you

·5· ·know.· It has a mushroom effect -- snow ball effect,

·6· ·sorry, not mushroom, snowball effect, you know.

·7· ·Other people feel like oh, why am I going to go try,

·8· ·you know, my friend couldn't vote, so.....

·9· · · · · · ·Don't put mushroom in there. Sorry, sorry.

10· · · · Q.· ·That's all right.· That's all right.· You

11· ·can just say strike that next time.

12· · · · A.· ·Okay.

13· · · · Q.· ·I have to do that a lot sometimes.

14· · · · A.· ·Okay.

15· · · · Q.· ·Other than the problems that you were

16· ·talking about with same day registration, that was

17· ·what we were talking about a moment ago, right?

18· · · · A.· ·Right.

19· · · · Q.· ·Other than the issues with same day

20· ·registration that we just talked about during the

21· ·2014 general election, any other problems that you

22· ·observed based upon your experience with the 2014

23· ·general election?

24· · · · A.· ·There were no provisional ballots and that

25· ·was disappointing having to send somebody in look of

Page 39·1· ·a precinct that might have their name because, you

·2· ·know, I would look up their address, the address

·3· ·they were telling me, and tell them where to vote,

·4· ·then it was the wrong place and so -- but those two

·5· ·things are I'm thinking the only two things.

·6· · · · · · ·Now, there -- there were -- people did not

·7· ·have to show picture IDs and folks would ask me, you

·8· ·know, "Am I really going to be able to vote without

·9· ·an ID?"

10· · · · · · ·And I would have to assure them, "yes."

11· · · · · · ·And they'd say, "Because I'm not going to

12· ·give those people my driver's license.· They might

13· ·keep it or they might, you know, confiscate it

14· ·or" -- so, I would assure them that they didn't have

15· ·to bring their license, so we did not have that.

16· ·That's a problem I encountered with people not

17· ·wanting to show their license for fear of that, you

18· ·know, something wrong being found with their name or

19· ·some excuse being given and then the authorities

20· ·keeping their license.· So I'm trying to think more

21· ·of barriers, you know, that people encountered with

22· ·transportation.

23· · · · · · ·We had fewer days, you know, to vote which

24· ·was a problem because there are fewer days available

25· ·to match with complicated schedules of people who

Page 40·1· ·have two jobs and whose, you know, schedule gets

·2· ·posted on Thursday night and they were trying to

·3· ·arrange for a ride.· We had two caravans to the

·4· ·poles on Saturdays and I -- and we took people to

·5· ·early voting during those caravans, and, you know,

·6· ·very central located place at University Mall, you

·7· ·know, which is easy to find and people, everybody in

·8· ·Chapel Hill knows where it is and so come over

·9· ·there, you can follow us, it's early voting or you

10· ·can ride with somebody.· But not everybody has

11· ·Saturday off so, in fact, a lot of Latinos work in

12· ·service jobs, so that -- that posed a problem but

13· ·that wasn't an issue at the poles, that was more an

14· ·issue of getting people to the poles.

15· · · · Q.· ·I want to talk about issues that did occur

16· ·at the poles in a moment but one thing that you said

17· ·that was an issue at the poles during the 2014

18· ·general election was that you said there were no

19· ·provisional ballots.

20· · · · A.· ·Right.

21· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain what you mean by that?

22· · · · A.· ·If your name's not there on that list then

23· ·you can't vote.· So I told you about William, who is

24· ·an immigrant from El Salvador, who lives in the

25· ·apartments right next to Community Park on Elliot

Page 41·1· ·Road and by his address, he should have been able to

·2· ·vote at Olin T. Binkley Baptist Church and he told

·3· ·me he had voted at a church, so when I gave him a

·4· ·ride, I took him to Binkley Church because it's

·5· ·three blocks from his apartment, but he wasn't on

·6· ·the roles there.· So I asked him if he remembered

·7· ·the name of the church where he had voted and he

·8· ·hadn't and so a volunteer from the church took him

·9· ·to Church of Rec, which is only a few blocks from

10· ·Binkley, but I don't know if he was able to vote

11· ·because he had to go to the second job from there.

12· ·So, he works at the hospital in the morning and then

13· ·until 3:00, I think, and then at a nursing home in

14· ·the evening.

15· · · · · · ·So I picked him up at the hospital, took

16· ·him to the church that he had said, you know,

17· ·because I thought it was the right place that he was

18· ·supposed to vote, but he didn't get to vote.

19· · · · Q.· ·Well, you said he didn't get to vote, but

20· ·you don't know whether he voted later or not?

21· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.

22· · · · Q.· ·And do you know what William's last name

23· ·is?

24· · · · A.· ·His wife is Ida Lee. I can find out before

25· ·the trial.

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 11 of 26

Page 42·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, if you'll let your attorney

·2· ·know if you find out --

·3· · · · A.· ·Sure.

·4· · · · Q.· ·-- that will be great.

·5· · · · A.· ·I definitely can.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, staying on this subject of no

·7· ·provisional ballots, right, William, for example,

·8· ·when William went to his poling place, do you know

·9· ·if he was told you can't vote a provisional ballot

10· ·at all or we will give you a provisional ballot but

11· ·if this is not the correct precint, your ballot will

12· ·not count?

13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

14· · · · A.· ·No, because I was translating and they --

15· ·they called me in.· He came out and they said -- and

16· ·he said, "You can come in, I can't vote."

17· · · · · · ·And so I went in and the guy said, "Please

18· ·explain to him that he can't vote, this is the wrong

19· ·precint."

20· · · · · · ·So I -- they didn't give him that option

21· ·of telling him it won't count, they were trying to

22· ·help him find -- because he was sure that he had

23· ·voted before and he had voted in a church in Chapel

24· ·Hill, we were trying to find out where he was

25· ·supposed to vote.

Page 43·1· · · · Q.· ·So the pole official was trying to direct

·2· ·him to the correct poling place?

·3· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And you went inside the poling place with

·5· ·William?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What poling place was that?

·8· · · · A.· ·Binkley, Olin T. Binkley Baptist Church.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember the approximate date

10· ·or time during the early voting period when that

11· ·occurred?

12· · · · A.· ·Oh, wow, I think it was the last day, it

13· ·was a Saturday maybe.· It had to be the last day

14· ·because he was going to be working in Durham a

15· ·double shift at the nursing home or something like

16· ·that on election day or he couldn't get off

17· ·permission on election -- there was a reason that he

18· ·couldn't go to the poles on election day, and he

19· ·said it was his last opportunity to vote and could I

20· ·give him a ride.· It was the last day of early

21· ·voting.

22· · · · Q.· ·And --

23· · · · A.· ·No, no, no, I'm totally confused, this was

24· ·election day.· He had not been able to make it to

25· ·early voting.· I'm trying to figure out -- it had to

Page 44·1· ·be election day because Church of Rec is not open.

·2· ·It's not early voting.· It was election day.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So this was on election day?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, it was election day.

·5· · · · Q.· ·He had tried to go to the Binkley Baptist

·6· ·Church precinct?

·7· · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Because he remembered that he had voted at

·9· ·a church previously?

10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

11· · · · Q.· ·And when you took him and dropped him off

12· ·at Binkley, he went inside the poling place --

13· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

14· · · · Q.· ·-- and then he came back out and told you,

15· ·"They won't let me vote."

16· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · Q.· ·And then you went inside the poling place

18· ·at Binkley with him?

19· · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· ·And tell me to the best of your

21· ·recollection what was said at that point?

22· · · · A.· ·And I can tell you who said it.· Bill

23· ·Niery was the official I talked to, because he's a

24· ·member of Binkley and I know him, he's a teacher at

25· ·the School of Science and Math and I didn't know he

Page 45·1· ·was a pole worker and I said, "Bill, how come

·2· ·William can't vote?"

·3· · · · · · ·And he said, "He's not registered here.

·4· ·This is not his precinct."· And that's where we

·5· ·tried to find another person to take him.

·6· · · · · · ·He said, "It has to be Church of Rec.

·7· ·because he says it was a church and he said it was

·8· ·closer to his apartment and so....."

·9· · · · Q.· ·And how do you know spell Mr. Niery's last

10· ·name, if you know?

11· · · · A.· ·I can look him up in the church directory,

12· ·N-i -- or I can call the church when we take a

13· ·break.

14· · · · Q.· ·Well, don't worry about that, I just

15· ·wanted to see if you would remember just because you

16· ·said you had known him.

17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

18· · · · Q.· ·But Mr. Niery teaches at the School of

19· ·Science and Math?

20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

21· · · · Q.· ·And he was working as a pole official at

22· ·the Binkley Church that day?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And to the best of your

25· ·recollection, he told you that William could not

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 12 of 26

Page 46·1· ·vote because that was not the right precinct?

·2· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And did you ask Mr. Niery if he could vote

·4· ·a provisional ballot anyway?

·5· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I did.· He may have

·6· ·said yes but it won't count or something like that,

·7· ·like you suggested.· I don't know why he thought it

·8· ·would be better for William to figure out his

·9· ·precinct and go and vote in the right precinct.

10· · · · · · ·And my recollection right now is he said

11· ·he can't vote here, but I don't know if he said that

12· ·because he knew it wouldn't count if he wasn't in

13· ·the right precinct.· I could ask him but I don't

14· ·even know if he would remember, you know, the

15· ·incident.

16· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember any other incident in

17· ·which a person specifically requested a provisional

18· ·ballot and was told you can't vote a provisional

19· ·ballot at all?

20· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form,

21· · · · mischaracterizes the record.

22· · · · A.· ·I --

23· · · · Q.· ·Well, let me -- let me rephrase the

24· ·question then.

25· · · · · · ·Do you remember any incident at all where

Page 47·1· ·someone was told I would like to vote a provisional

·2· ·ballot at a poling place but they were told by a

·3· ·poling official you cannot do that?

·4· · · · A.· ·No.· I know people came out of the Weaver

·5· ·Dairy Precinct, I was there in the morning and at a

·6· ·table and people came out who had not voted who had

·7· ·been told go home and go to the Board of Elections

·8· ·website and try to figure out where you're supposed

·9· ·to vote.· So they were not -- I don't know if they

10· ·had asked for a provisional ballot and had been told

11· ·it won't count or what, but there were people coming

12· ·out that had been directed to go try to find their

13· ·right place.· So William wasn't the only person, he

14· ·was the only person I translated for that that

15· ·happened, but he wasn't the only person who was told

16· ·you can't vote here, go find out where you're

17· ·supposed to vote.· I know that happened at the

18· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct to more than -- more than

19· ·three people that I can -- I -- I know were not able

20· ·to vote because they were told they were in the

21· ·wrong precinct.

22· · · · Q.· ·And were you present for any of the

23· ·conversations that occurred in the Weaver Dairy

24· ·Precinct?

25· · · · A.· ·No, not inside.

Page 48·1· · · · Q.· ·And do you know whether any of those three

·2· ·people that you mentioned at the Weaver Dairy

·3· ·Precinct were able to vote later at another poling

·4· ·place?

·5· · · · A.· ·No, I did not follow-up on any of those.

·6· ·I did tell them how to log on and that they put

·7· ·their address, you know, in the corner.· I did not

·8· ·have my laptop because I didn't have wi-fi at the

·9· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct.

10· · · · Q.· ·But you tried to help them find the

11· ·correct precinct to vote in?

12· · · · A.· ·I told them, you know, do you have wi-fi

13· ·at home, I mean, a computer, this is how you go and

14· ·this is, you know....

15· · · · Q.· ·And a moment ago you brought up some

16· ·issues that might have occurred outside of the

17· ·poling places.

18· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

19· · · · Q.· ·And so let's talk about those now.

20· · · · A.· ·Okay.

21· · · · Q.· ·Before 2014, are there any issues that you

22· ·have observed North Carolina voters having outside

23· ·of the poling place?

24· · · · A.· ·Before 2014?

25· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

Page 49·1· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Lots of issues.· Transportation,

·2· ·trying to -- folks have crazy schedules.· The lower

·3· ·you are on the totem pole, the less control you have

·4· ·of your schedule and your life.· And for Latino

·5· ·families, this is really true.· Often there's only

·6· ·one person with a driver's license who also is the

·7· ·voting person, so they're providing transportation

·8· ·for the whole family and children and plus working

·9· ·one or two jobs.· So getting the information to

10· ·people, where to go, when to vote, the Spanish media

11· ·does a good job but for example, we have only weekly

12· ·papers and they cover the whole Triangle, so whereas

13· ·in the Chapel Hill News, an anglo speaker, you know,

14· ·English speaker who's familiar with things can look

15· ·at voting places and precincts and get voter -- not

16· ·voter guys but -- well, yeah, you have, you know,

17· ·the voter guys who's running for what office, what

18· ·the office is.· In Spanish, it's not as available

19· ·and also, it's not just Hispanics, African Americans

20· ·or people who dropped out of school.· More than 50

21· ·percent of the Latinos in North Carolina between 16

22· ·and 19 have not finished high school and are not in

23· ·high school.· So you have illiteracy issues, you

24· ·have a civic education issue, you have

25· ·transportation problems.· There are a lot of things

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 26

Page 50·1· ·to overcome to get poor people and the distress of

·2· ·government, you know.

·3· · · · · · ·I've only been a citizen for three years

·4· ·and my wife is not a citizen or my husband, you

·5· ·know, I've just put in the papers for them to get

·6· ·residency and, you know, are they going to ask me

·7· ·questions?· So all kinds of barriers.· It's almost a

·8· ·full-time job to do civic education and get people

·9· ·registered into the poles.· It could be a full-time

10· ·job for somebody.

11· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if there are people who do

12· ·that sort of thing full-time?

13· · · · A.· ·I don't think so, I mean I wish there

14· ·were.· Civic educators, you know, at the high school

15· ·level are trying to train the kids to be good

16· ·citizens and to reach out and by extension, educate

17· ·their families but, you know.....

18· · · · Q.· ·Well, there are a lot of organizations out

19· ·there doing voter registration work, are there not?

20· · · · A.· ·Oh, right, right, right, The League of

21· ·Women Voters is one, right, right, yeah, I

22· ·thought -- but those are all volunteers.· I thought

23· ·like you were asking me if there's somebody from the

24· ·Board of Elections going out and doing voter

25· ·education, I don't know but I don't think so.

Page 51·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, in terms of non profit organizations

·2· ·though, they have staffs, right, the NAACP has paid

·3· ·staff and The League of Women Voters has paid staff?

·4· · · · A.· ·Not in Orange County.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Not in Orange County?· What -- what --

·6· ·what is your -- and I understand that you are

·7· ·involved with the North Carolina State Conference

·8· ·and NAACP; is that right?

·9· · · · A.· ·Not -- I don't have any position.· I mean

10· ·I'm involved in that.· I participate in the movement

11· ·but no, to my knowledge, we only have statewide paid

12· ·positions.· We don't have offices in Orange County.

13· ·The state office is in Durham.· And if we're lucky,

14· ·you know, we can get the director to come and, you

15· ·know, give a speech at a dinner or, you know, help

16· ·our branch organize something.

17· · · · · · ·No.· I -- I've been very involved in the

18· ·Orange County NAACP, it's called Chapel Hill

19· ·Carrboro NAACP and we don't have any paid staff.

20· · · · Q.· ·Are you familiar with the organization

21· ·called Democracy North Carolina?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, they helped me when I worked with my

23· ·students at A&T to do voter registration.

24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they put out literature

25· ·that explains to voters changes in voting laws and

Page 52·1· ·how to vote and things of that nature?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, they do.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they're putting any of

·4· ·that out in Spanish?

·5· · · · A.· ·I know I got a bilingual little pamphlet

·6· ·like two weeks before the elections, but I think

·7· ·that came from D.C. but I don't know, maybe it was

·8· ·Democracy North Carolina.· And one side was in

·9· ·English and another side in Spanish and it did say

10· ·you don't need an ID.· And that was very helpful to

11· ·give it out.· I -- I was not able to distribute all

12· ·that I got because we don't have the manpower, I

13· ·mean....

14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· We've been going for about an

15· · · · hour now, do we need to take a short break or

16· · · · are you okay?

17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm okay.

18· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Okay.

19· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I'll be glad to -- why

20· · · · don't we do a little bit more and then take a

21· · · · break?· I wouldn't mind one myself.

22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Sure.

23· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of anyone by name who was not

24· ·able to vote in the 2014 elections because of any

25· ·change made to North Carolina's voting laws by House

Page 53·1· ·Bill 589?

·2· · · · A.· ·This is another instance of wishing I had

·3· ·written down names, but our last naturalization

·4· ·ceremony before the election, I had to tell people

·5· ·that it was too late to register, even though, you

·6· ·know, the year before -- well, not the year before,

·7· ·in 2012, I had been able to tell people take your

·8· ·naturalization certificate and go to early voting.

·9· ·And I had actually taken a person, Elena Oncarita

10· ·Soto to the pole to early voting myself, was very

11· ·excited after the Friday naturalization ceremony

12· ·before the elections, the Tuesday elections.

13· · · · · · ·In 2014, there was an English woman who

14· ·was really upset because she said, "It's taking me

15· ·two years to get, you know, my citizenship and now

16· ·you're telling me I can't vote."· Because The League

17· ·of Women Voters has a table at the naturalization

18· ·ceremonies and we give out -- I say "we," I help

19· ·when I'm able to, they always have people there to

20· ·welcome new citizens and to give them a voter

21· ·registration card, but it was too late.

22· · · · Q.· ·So the scenario you were describing is

23· ·where someone attends their naturalization ceremony,

24· ·they're sworn in as a citizen of the ceremony; is

25· ·that right?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 14 of 26

Page 54·1· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And that ceremony occurs after the normal

·3· ·cut-off for voter registration; is that right?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, there is early voting going on but

·5· ·since we don't have same day registration, they

·6· ·can't register now.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And have you looked into whether there is

·8· ·any way for people in that particular scenario to

·9· ·still register and vote even without same day

10· ·registration?

11· · · · A.· ·I have asked the Board of Elections and

12· ·I've been told no.

13· · · · Q.· ·And which Board of Elections did you ask?

14· · · · A.· ·Orange County.

15· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember who you spoke with?

16· · · · A.· ·Betty, Betty, her first name is Betty.

17· ·She's really, really sweet.· She said no, because

18· ·the cut-off is 25 days before the elections.

19· · · · Q.· ·And so if your naturalization ceremony is

20· ·between the 25-day cut off and election day, your

21· ·understanding is that you cannot register and vote

22· ·in that election?

23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · Q.· ·And were you involved in naturalization

25· ·ceremonies in any of the other states that you lived

Page 55·1· ·in?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, in Louisville.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·4· · · · A.· ·I became a citizen myself but I never

·5· ·volunteered to register people.· It actually had not

·6· ·occurred to me until I came to North Carolina.

·7· · · · · · ·Naturalization ceremonies used to be held

·8· ·more infrequently.· They used to be like three times

·9· ·a year and you had to wait and wait and then there

10· ·would be hundreds of people and it would be, you

11· ·know, like Fourth of July or big events and massive

12· ·chaos and now it's become more of a routine

13· ·procedure, so they're -- a lot of Fridays you just

14· ·have 60 people, you know, it's not this massive

15· ·chaotic once in a lifetime thing but it's -- it's

16· ·more of a routine procedure, like instead of having

17· ·the big Carolina graduation if you finished your

18· ·degree in that, you know, in January, you had one in

19· ·February, you had one in March.· So it has become

20· ·more easier to register people and to offer that

21· ·because it's self contained and it's only certain

22· ·counties, so it's easier to direct people to the

23· ·poles and to tell them where to go.

24· · · · · · ·Before I've accompanied people to

25· ·naturalization ceremonies that were four hours away

Page 56·1· ·from where they live, you know, so it was not -- I

·2· ·don't think it was, like anybody was at fault like

·3· ·The League of Women Voters of Kentucky or anything,

·4· ·it was just not as feasible as it is now.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if Kentucky had same day

·6· ·registration during the time that you were there?

·7· · · · A.· ·I have no idea.· Wow, that's a tough

·8· ·question.· I know who I could call to find out but I

·9· ·don't remember.

10· · · · Q.· ·Well, in other places that you lived and

11· ·done voter registration, voter engagement work and

12· ·similar types of activities, did any of those other

13· ·places have early voting when you were engaging in

14· ·those type of activities in those states?

15· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

16· · · · A.· ·I know in West virginia and Virginia, we

17· ·did more with absentee voting because the rural --

18· ·the distances in transportation were such a huge

19· ·issue, you know, people from a little town in the

20· ·coal mines and all, but I don't remember that. I

21· ·know I was very proud that North Carolina had such a

22· ·tremendous outreach and such a tremendous effort to

23· ·have everybody's voice, you know, heard.· I have

24· ·never been involved to the extent that I was

25· ·involved since I moved to North Carolina with trying

Page 57·1· ·to help people who had never voted in their lives,

·2· ·like with my students at A&T, we went to the

·3· ·projects and found people who had never voted,

·4· ·people in their fifties, forties, fifties, sixties

·5· ·and explaining to them all the opportunities they

·6· ·had, you know, to register and everything.· It was a

·7· ·very good feeling.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And in your Get Out to Vote work here with

·9· ·the Orange County Democratic Party and the other

10· ·organizations that you're involved with, do you

11· ·recommend or use absentee voting very much in those

12· ·activities?

13· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.

14· · · · Q.· ·And why is that?

15· · · · A.· ·It wasn't the most practical thing.· You

16· ·can't tell people how to vote and using an absentee

17· ·ballot for somebody that -- I don't know, I -- same

18· ·day -- same day registration and early voting were

19· ·tools that served us well to get people to the

20· ·poles.· We probably have to rethink that for the

21· ·2016 election if the law doesn't change and make

22· ·more use of absentee ballots but then you have to

23· ·think about the stamp and -- I don't know -- I don't

24· ·know what will be involved with it.· It seemed more

25· ·complicated and cumbersome, and, you know, it's like

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 15 of 26

Page 58·1· ·asking people to file taxes rather than exercising a

·2· ·right.· It's more of a burden than a -- than the

·3· ·exercise of a right, it feels like to me, but that's

·4· ·my prejudice, probably.· I'll have to look into it.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware that in 2016 if a voter

·6· ·casts an absentee ballot, he or she will not have to

·7· ·show a photo ID?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes, I'm aware of that and that may be a

·9· ·good reason to use absentee ballots.

10· · · · Q.· ·Because I think I saw in some of the

11· ·materials that you provided and perhaps in your

12· ·declaration that you filed in this case, you said

13· ·that you thought Hispanic and Latino voters were

14· ·concerned about having to show a photo ID at the

15· ·poles, right?

16· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

17· · · · Q.· ·And would voting by absentee ballot be one

18· ·method that allow them to vote and not have to show

19· ·a photo ID at the poles in 2016?

20· · · · A.· ·That -- right, that would be one way. I

21· ·can see huge issues with it with, you know, they

22· ·have to write to request the absentee ballot, so you

23· ·have to write and I don't think -- well, I know the

24· ·request is not in Spanish, it's in English.· Like I

25· ·mentioned, more than half of Latinos in North

Page 59·1· ·Carolina have not finished high school, many of them

·2· ·have not finished eighth grade.· Well, no, they

·3· ·dropped out of school probably around in middle

·4· ·school, but anyway, the point is you're asking

·5· ·people to take several steps.· Honestly, it's almost

·6· ·like having a literacy test because you have to be

·7· ·able to read and write English well to know how to

·8· ·send a letter and have, you know, the planning

·9· ·ability to -- to plan enough time to do both, to

10· ·receive -- to write the letter in time and you're

11· ·talking about a civic education process way beyond

12· ·voting in order for people to be able to use that.

13· ·I can see where I would have to spend all my time

14· ·doing just that rather than campaigning or anything

15· ·else for people to be able to successfully use

16· ·absentee ballots, and I don't think I can reach half

17· ·of the voters, you know, that -- that would have

18· ·qualms about using an ID.

19· · · · · · ·I can -- I can totally see how awful that

20· ·would sound to a campaign for you not to have to

21· ·show your ID or -- anyway, like there's something

22· ·wrong with them, you know, that would scare people.

23· ·Oh, if these people are having a campaign so yeah, I

24· ·don't have to show my ID, maybe I shouldn't.· I was

25· ·planning on showing my ID but now I won't because

Page 60·1· ·why would they be telling other people to use, you

·2· ·know, absentee?

·3· · · · Q.· ·Well, do you think your absentee ballot

·4· ·focus in West Virginia and Virginia was successful?

·5· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

·6· · · · A.· ·I didn't have an absentee ballot vote, I'm

·7· ·just aware that that was thing -- that was something

·8· ·that was used by people in West Virginia and

·9· ·Virginia.

10· · · · · · ·I taught high school when I live -- first

11· ·I worked in Bluefield College and then I taught high

12· ·school, actually, in the Virginia side.· I focused

13· ·very much on my high school students understanding

14· ·voting and understanding the ballots, understanding

15· ·the process, why democracy is so important, why

16· ·participation is so important, why they -- I worked

17· ·with kids whose parents mostly had not graduated

18· ·from high school.· They worked at the mills in the

19· ·hollows of Virginia, you know, and for them to

20· ·understand that if their voice was not heard in

21· ·Richmond, they -- the highway was never going to get

22· ·fixed.· You know, we got washed out on the little

23· ·highway going to the high school and their

24· ·consolidation of schools was going to continue and

25· ·they were going to lose their schools because they

Page 61·1· ·were cutting funds for education and all those

·2· ·things, so that was more my focus there, trying --

·3· ·issues, understanding the process.· I was not

·4· ·involved with my precinct or anything like that in

·5· ·West Virginia.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Did you say earlier though that you

·7· ·thought that absentee balloting was helpful in West

·8· ·Virginia and Virginia with people who had

·9· ·transportation issues?

10· · · · A.· ·I'm pretty --

11· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form.· I think

12· · · · that mischaracterizes the record.

13· · · · A.· ·Sorry.

14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.

15· · · · A.· ·I can?· I'm sorry.

16· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.

17· · · · A.· ·What I said is that I know that yes, yes,

18· ·I said that, that I thought they used it there.

19· · · · · · ·Now, I also know that there were stories I

20· ·heard about politics in West Virginia that were

21· ·totally scary about buses coming to pick up people

22· ·from the little towns and giving them, you know,

23· ·barbecue or whatever for their vote or -- I don't

24· ·know.· I -- it was definitely a different culture

25· ·and a different life.· I lived in West Virginia from

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 16 of 26

Page 62·1· ·'91 to '96 with a year of sabbatical in the middle,

·2· ·so four years with one year in the middle here in

·3· ·Chapel Hill in sabbatical, which is when we decided

·4· ·to move to North Carolina.· But -- so in those --

·5· ·those four years were an education and I tried to be

·6· ·involved and I tried to educate my students and I

·7· ·tried to help, but it wasn't enough to truly

·8· ·understand the politics of the state and to -- and I

·9· ·lived in two -- I worked in one state and lived in

10· ·one state, so I could not tell you enough about

11· ·politics of West Virginia or Virginia to be helpful.

12· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Michael, we've been going for

13· · · · about an hour and a half now, is this an okay

14· · · · time to take a break?

15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· This is fine. sure.

16· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Okay.

17· · · · (WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

18· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Palmer, before we took a break, we

20· ·were talking a little bit about absentee balloting.

21· ·Did you assist anyone in casting an absentee ballot

22· ·in the 2014 general election?

23· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.

24· · · · Q.· ·And so your knowledge about the absentee

25· ·balloting process is based upon what?

Page 63·1· · · · A.· ·Going on line, looking up information. I

·2· ·told people the dates when The League of Women

·3· ·Voters had a booth at Festival and we had a sheet of

·4· ·paper with information for people.· Actually, I

·5· ·think we may have had the form you have to fill out.

·6· ·I'm not a hundred percent sure.· I'm positive we had

·7· ·a sheet with information how to cast an absentee

·8· ·ballot and under -- either under on top of it, it

·9· ·also had the early voting dates, and then if you

10· ·weren't going to be able to make that, where to cast

11· ·an absentee ballot.

12· · · · Q.· ·And is that something that was provided by

13· ·The League of Women Voters?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes. I know it was not in Spanish. I

15· ·translated one -- started to translate one and had

16· ·it on a clip board there at Festival but we had the

17· ·early voting dates and information in Spanish

18· ·because I had emailed that ahead of the event.

19· · · · Q.· ·And you mentioned something about having

20· ·to send in a letter to request an absentee ballot,

21· ·are you referring to simply the absentee ballot

22· ·request form or are you thinking about something

23· ·else?

24· · · · A.· ·I'm thinking about that form.· But I think

25· ·you can also send a letter.· You have to request --

Page 64·1· ·you have to send a request and it can be a form --

·2· ·if -- I'm thinking about people who don't have

·3· ·printers and they just send a letter and I think

·4· ·that it said that -- or you can send a letter with

·5· ·the following information and it has your name,

·6· ·address, all the things you have to put on the

·7· ·letter.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And during the 2014 election cycle, I'm

·9· ·referring to both the primary and the general there,

10· ·are you aware of any issues or problems voters had

11· ·outside the poling place that we haven't already

12· ·talked about?

13· · · · A.· ·Outside the poling place?· We have talked

14· ·about transportation, about precinct, about knowing

15· ·where the precinct was, about scheduling, about

16· ·thinking that they could pre-register.· I mean

17· ·personal issues like baby sitters and stuff like

18· ·that that you run across but no, I can't think of

19· ·generalized issues.

20· · · · Q.· ·Would it be fair to say that many if not

21· ·most of those issues though existed before the 2014

22· ·elections as well?

23· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.

24· · · · A.· ·Not the thinking that you can register and

25· ·vote with same day voter registration.· That did not

Page 65·1· ·exist before, and I had not experienced people being

·2· ·told on election day that you can't vote here, you

·3· ·need to find your precinct.· Those two things had

·4· ·not happened before.

·5· · · · Q.· ·But they were the main differences between

·6· ·what you observed in 2014 and what you had observed

·7· ·before 2014?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to the

10· ·response to Interrogatory Number 11, and that

11· ·Interrogatory simply asks about any forms of photo

12· ·identification that you had in your possession and

13· ·you stated at the time that --

14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Why don't we give her a chance

15· · · · just to read it, if that's okay.

16· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure.

17· · · · A.· ·Okay.

18· · · · Q.· ·So having read Interrogatory Number 11, is

19· ·it accurate to say that you currently have a North

20· ·Carolina driver's license?

21· · · · A.· ·That is accurate.

22· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any concerns about your

23· ·ability to use that North Carolina driver's license

24· ·as an acceptable form of photo ID during the 2016

25· ·elections?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 17 of 26

Page 66·1· · · · A.· ·I have a concern, a small concern that the

·2· ·poling folks will have been given some kind of

·3· ·instruction that your name on your ID has to match

·4· ·exactly your name on your voter registration, and

·5· ·I've had issues previously with names not matching

·6· ·being a problem for government functions.· So that

·7· ·is a concern for me but more than for me, for a lot

·8· ·of people I work with.

·9· · · · Q.· ·So let's talk about that a minute.· Has

10· ·anyone told you that in order to vote in 2016, the

11· ·name on your driver's license will have to match

12· ·exactly with the name on your voter registration?

13· · · · A.· ·No.

14· · · · Q.· ·And what is the basis then of your concern

15· ·about that issue?

16· · · · A.· ·Run-ins with the DMV and with other state

17· ·offices.· I've had parishioners and friends who I

18· ·gave an example in my Interrogatory, my friend, Mya

19· ·Sanchez, whose driver's license was confiscated

20· ·because it didn't match her Social Security card and

21· ·she was told at the Carrboro DMV that she had lied

22· ·because she had provided her married name when she

23· ·got her card.· She had -- she married and moved to

24· ·North Carolina.· She married a North Carolinian, was

25· ·living in New York, moved to North Carolina, took

Page 67·1· ·her marriage license to get her DMV driver's license

·2· ·and never changed her Social Security card, because

·3· ·that -- she -- her professional name remained her

·4· ·maiden name, and they confiscated her card and said

·5· ·she wasn't that person and, you know, she had to

·6· ·call her husband to come pick her up and -- and I've

·7· ·had problems in the schools, I've had problems

·8· ·everywhere with name issues, even with my children

·9· ·having their names changed, you know, having to

10· ·argue that no, there's not a hyphen there or this or

11· ·that, you know, they have two last names, things

12· ·like that.

13· · · · Q.· ·Well, with respect to Ms. Sanchez, do you

14· ·remember when the incident that you were referring

15· ·to with the Carrboro DMV occurred?

16· · · · A.· ·I believe four years ago, something like

17· ·that, three years ago maybe.

18· · · · Q.· ·And --

19· · · · A.· ·No probably three, three, years ago.

20· · · · Q.· ·Were you present at the DMV when Ms.

21· ·Sanchez's license was confiscated?

22· · · · A.· ·No, she called me after.· She called me

23· ·from home.

24· · · · Q.· ·So everything you know about that incident

25· ·is based upon what Ms. Sanchez told you?

Page 68·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And do you know anyone else who has had a

·3· ·driver's license confiscated by DMV?

·4· · · · A.· ·No, but I have threatened a sit-in and

·5· ·told them to call the police when they refused to

·6· ·give a license to a woman who had her purse

·7· ·snatched.· The only document she could produce to

·8· ·prove her identity was her naturalization

·9· ·certificate because her Social Security card and

10· ·driver's license were in her purse and they said

11· ·that wasn't adequate because she needed two

12· ·documents and she needed, you know, birth

13· ·certificate, which she didn't have because she's

14· ·from El Salvador and, you know, so I said, "She has

15· ·to have a driver's license.· She's going to end up

16· ·in jail and, you know, we're going to sit here,

17· ·please call the police, and call your supervisor

18· ·and, you know, what more proof do you need than a

19· ·naturalization certificate?"· But they are real

20· ·difficult to work with, very difficult.· And you end

21· ·up -- my -- my driver's license now is not in

22· ·compliance with their rules and I know I'm going to

23· ·have a problem when I go renew it because I have to

24· ·go change my Social Security to match that, based on

25· ·my friend's experiences and my son's experience.

Page 69·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, now, you're saying you're going to

·2· ·have to get your driver's license to match the name

·3· ·on your Social Security card the next time you try

·4· ·to renew your driver's license?

·5· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·6· · · · Q.· ·But you're not concerned about the

·7· ·discrepancy between your Social Security card and

·8· ·your driver's license keeping you from voting, are

·9· ·you?

10· · · · A.· ·Well, I hope not.· I hope they know me in

11· ·my precinct, you know.· I would think that would be

12· ·outrageous, but I'm not putting it past -- past some

13· ·precinct workers.· I don't think it will happen in

14· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct.

15· · · · Q.· ·And now with respect to this lady who you

16· ·said had trouble getting her driver's license and

17· ·you threatened a sit-in, when did that occur?

18· · · · A.· ·Probably 2005, sometime around -- about

19· ·ten years ago.

20· · · · Q.· ·And was she ever able to get her driver's

21· ·license?

22· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· They didn't want to call the

23· ·police.· They told me that they were going to call

24· ·the police if they pulled out her license and the

25· ·picture in there didn't match what she looked like,

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 18 of 26

Page 70·1· ·which -- but they locked the office before they

·2· ·issued her license.· They didn't want anybody to see

·3· ·that they could actually do it.

·4· · · · Q.· ·You said they locked the office?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, we stayed there until 5:00.· It took

·6· ·me three hours or more to get her license.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Wow.· Where did that occur?

·8· · · · A.· ·Carrboro DMV.

·9· · · · Q.· ·I hand you a document, ma'am, that has

10· ·been marked as NAACP Exhibit 9, and we'll give a

11· ·copy to your attorneys here.

12· · · · A.· ·Okay.

13· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 9 WAS MARKED FOR

14· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

15· · · · Q.· ·I believe this is a document that was

16· ·produced to us in the course of this lawsuit.· It's

17· ·numbered as NCSC 618 at the bottom, the bottom

18· ·right-hand corner.Do you see that?

19· · · · A.· ·No.· Where?

20· · · · Q.· ·There's a number at the bottom right-hand

21· ·corner.

22· · · · A.· ·Right.

23· · · · Q.· ·That's called a Bates number is what

24· ·that's called and it's just Page 618 and that just

25· ·helps us when we're referring to a document, make

Page 71·1· ·sure we're all talking about the same thing.

·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · Q.· ·But for our purposes here today, it's

·4· ·NAACP Exhibit 9.

·5· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·6· · · · Q.· ·What are the documents that appear on this

·7· ·page?

·8· · · · A.· ·My State of North Carolina driver's

·9· ·license, my North Carolina Democratic Party

10· ·Membership Card and my Board of Elections -- Orange

11· ·County Board of Elections registration card that has

12· ·my precinct, Weaver Dairy Precinct and where to

13· ·vote.

14· · · · Q.· ·And at the top of the page here, is this a

15· ·copy of your current driver's license?

16· · · · A.· ·That is.

17· · · · Q.· ·And is your name correct as it appears on

18· ·this license?

19· · · · A.· ·It's not my full legal name.· My name is

20· ·Maria Teresa Unger Palmer, Maria Teresa Unger

21· ·Palmer.

22· · · · Q.· ·So Teresa's been left out of the name?

23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know how that happened?

25· · · · A.· ·No, maybe they didn't have space, maybe --

Page 72·1· ·I don't know.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And it looks like you received this

·3· ·license perhaps in 2010, because that's the issue

·4· ·date.· Does that sound about right?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And when you saw this in 2010, did you

·7· ·raise any issues with DMV and say hey, you left out

·8· ·Teresa in my name?

·9· · · · A.· ·I may have said, "My signature is Maria T.

10· ·for Teresa and it's not going to match."

11· · · · · · ·And the lady just said, "Just sign it, you

12· ·know."· I know I didn't think that -- I thought it

13· ·should have all my names but for some reason, they

14· ·didn't put all my names in here.

15· · · · Q.· ·And the document at the bottom page, that

16· ·appears to be an Orange County voter registration

17· ·card?

18· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

19· · · · Q.· ·It's called a voter identification card

20· ·more precisely.· Is this a current copy of your

21· ·Orange County voter identification card?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, it is.

23· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to

24· ·Interrogatory Number 20.

25· · · · A.· ·Okay.

Page 73·1· · · · Q.· ·And I want to give you a chance to read

·2· ·that first and then let me know when you're ready

·3· ·for some questions.

·4· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And Interrogatory 20 just basically asks

·6· ·if you knew anyone who had knowledge of the

·7· ·allegations in the Complaint, and you've listed

·8· ·several specific names here, and so I just want to

·9· ·ask you about what you think specifically these

10· ·people may know about things that are related to

11· ·this lawsuit.· So I think it's just easy to go in

12· ·order here.· So how about Andrea Vizoso, and you can

13· ·correct me if I mispronounce any of these names.

14· · · · A.· ·Vizoso, she has worked very hard with

15· ·voter registration, and she's the one that asked me

16· ·if I was willing to give my phone number for -- to

17· ·people serving at the different poles, if people had

18· ·problems and she -- she cannot do things that are

19· ·partisan because she works for an agency that

20· ·doesn't allow that and so she cannot -- if she gave

21· ·out her phone number, people might call that are

22· ·trying to help, you know, a Democrat vote or a

23· ·Republican vote that might be construed as her being

24· ·partisan, so she cannot do that.· So -- but she's a

25· ·Spanish speaker and she suggested that I would be a

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 19 of 26

Page 74·1· ·good person.· At that time, I was pastoring. I knew

·2· ·her from church and she put me in touch, she was one

·3· ·of the early people that put me in touch with The

·4· ·League of Women Voters and all the nonpartisan

·5· ·organizations.· She's very involved in civic stuff

·6· ·and familiar with the issues that Hispanics face.

·7· · · · Q.· ·How about the next one, I won't --

·8· · · · A.· ·Graciela Vidal.· She's a resident of

·9· ·Chatham County and volunteers.· She does a lot of

10· ·literacy, edits books and does literacy work with

11· ·Hispanics and volunteers some and she's a little

12· ·older than I am and I recruited her often to help me

13· ·because she's an amazing editor and bilingual, so

14· ·phone banks, telling people, helping people

15· ·register.· She volunteered at Festival, she's just a

16· ·really good citizen and friend.

17· · · · Q.· ·And does she work with you in any

18· ·particular organization or --

19· · · · A.· ·The Democratic party.

20· · · · Q.· ·And how about the next one, you're doing

21· ·so good on these names.

22· · · · A.· ·Moises Weisledder.· He is an incredible

23· ·guy.· He's 83, 84 probably now.· He became a citizen

24· ·before the 2012 election, was so excited.· He is

25· ·originally from Poland and has been a citizen of

Page 75·1· ·Costa Rico and then married a Mexican lady, lived in

·2· ·Mexico for 40 years.· Her son immigrated to the

·3· ·United States, he retired and moved here and at 78,

·4· ·I think, became a citizen.· Just a lovely guy.· Read

·5· ·my name in the newspaper when he heard that I was

·6· ·running for office and he volunteered in my campaign

·7· ·and then after I got elected, we worked together to

·8· ·do voter registration and all kinds of things.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And then I see Betts Fields here.

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And I believe is he someone who

12· ·volunteered on your campaign for Chapel Hill Town

13· ·Council?

14· · · · A.· ·No, it's a she and she --

15· · · · Q.· ·Oh, she.

16· · · · A.· ·She's a member of the -- we call ourselves

17· ·the Hotties, Hispanic Outreach Team and she is a

18· ·volunteer with the Democratic Party.· Her husband

19· ·has had health issues so she did not help with the

20· ·2014 campaign.· She worked in the 2012 campaign but

21· ·was very familiar.· She may have sent a contribution

22· ·to my campaign but she did not -- she may be on the

23· ·list of my supporters but she did not -- was not

24· ·able to do a lot of actually, I don't think any

25· ·campaigning for me or for the 2014 campaign.

Page 76·1· · · · Q.· ·And what year were you first elected to

·2· ·the Chapel Hill Town Council?

·3· · · · A.· ·2013.

·4· · · · Q.· ·When are you up for election again?

·5· · · · A.· ·2017.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And how about David Mateo?

·7· · · · A.· ·He's a current pastor of the church I

·8· ·founded, Inglesia Unida de Cristo on Martin Luther

·9· ·King Boulevard in Chapel Hill and he has allowed me

10· ·to come back to the church to do a couple of voter

11· ·registration drives and also to talk to people about

12· ·local politics, who you vote, why it's not just the

13· ·president who's important, why Latinos need to vote

14· ·because our issues need to be heard by all the

15· ·parties and all the candidates and, you know, in a

16· ·nonpartisan way, I have done voter education at his

17· ·church as well as Reverend David Rodriguez.

18· · · · Q.· ·And so Reverend David Rodriguez is --

19· · · · A.· ·A pastor of another -- a different church.

20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me about what you think he

21· ·might know that's relevant to this lawsuit?

22· · · · A.· ·I called him and he and I talked.· He's

23· ·pastor of Inglesia Internacional in Greensboro and

24· ·he has firsthand knowledge of the problems Latinos

25· ·face at the DMV, getting IDs, all the issues.· We

Page 77·1· ·had a forum at the church on -- to address the

·2· ·problems, the Sheriff of Guilford County harassing

·3· ·people, you know, trying to confiscate licenses of

·4· ·Latinos and other things and he wanted to join the

·5· ·lawsuit but didn't have enough time -- at first, it

·6· ·was an issue of presenting it to his church and then

·7· ·the people in his church were afraid that it would

·8· ·bring problems and retaliation, I think.· So he's

·9· ·aware -- we discussed the lawsuit, we discussed

10· ·issues and he has knowledge of why I'm doing this.

11· · · · Q.· ·And you said he has knowledge of why

12· ·you're doing this?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·And is that knowledge based upon something

15· ·you told him?

16· · · · A.· ·No, the experiences of our parishioners

17· ·that we discussed.

18· · · · Q.· ·And you said that he has firsthand

19· ·knowledge of issues Latinos face at DMV.

20· · · · A.· ·Right.

21· · · · Q.· ·Explain what you mean by that.

22· · · · A.· ·Well, when you're a pastor of a Latino

23· ·church, you have people calling you crying saying,

24· ·you know, I can't get a license, they won't take my

25· ·papers, they won't -- they say that this is not good

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 20 of 26

Page 78·1· ·enough.· They say I have to produce my citizenship

·2· ·documentation, and, you know, even kids who are born

·3· ·in California, they're telling them well, you can't

·4· ·just bring your California license, you have to have

·5· ·a birth certificate to show that you were born in

·6· ·the U.S.· Well, they're going to call mom, you know,

·7· ·to find their birth certificate.· I mean you deal

·8· ·with immigrants from New York from different parts

·9· ·of the U.S. who come here looking for work, who the

10· ·DMV treats like they are, you know, like everything

11· ·is fake, like this can't be for real, like they're

12· ·questioning their papers and they're questioning,

13· ·you know, so it's -- he knows what problems they

14· ·face.

15· · · · · · ·"Well, where's your bill that shows your

16· ·address?"

17· · · · · · ·"Well, I'm paying for a room at somebody's

18· ·house."

19· · · · · · ·"Well, you have to bring a notarized copy

20· ·from the person that you're renting the room from

21· ·them saying that you actually live there."· You

22· ·know, things like that that you face trying to work

23· ·with the system and we talked about that and why an

24· ·ID would be so problematic, and he was on board, but

25· ·I think his church was worried about retaliation or

Page 79·1· ·problems or issues, and it was decided that I should

·2· ·go forward but he -- he couldn't or wouldn't.

·3· · · · Q.· ·So as far as you know, the problems that

·4· ·he's aware of are based upon what things his

·5· ·parishioners have told him?

·6· · · · A.· ·He's probably --

·7· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection, I think that

·8· · · · mischaracterizes the record.· She said that it

·9· · · · was based on firsthand knowledge.

10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Well, I'm asking what she

11· · · · means by that and so she's said that

12· · · · parishioners have told him different things

13· · · · about their experiences, correct?

14· · · · A.· ·And he's probably accompanied them.· He --

15· ·I mean when we talked, he could think of people in

16· ·his congregation that this had happened to, so, you

17· ·know, but the problem is if you as a pastor -- I'm

18· ·here in part as an elected official and a former

19· ·pastor, but if you're a pastor, current pastor of a

20· ·congregation, you're worried about confidentiality

21· ·issues, about, you know, you're going to be put on

22· ·the stand and talk about your parishioners' problems

23· ·and, and, you know, who is worried about

24· ·undocumented status of a spouse or a, you know,

25· ·something is worried about their license.· It would

Page 80·1· ·put him in a very difficult situation and I could

·2· ·understand that.· I told him I -- I didn't want to

·3· ·pressure him to do that because he felt that having

·4· ·intimate knowledge of his parishioners' problems,

·5· ·you know, are you supposed to discuss this in a

·6· ·court of law, you know.· And so talking to his

·7· ·congregation, I think his decision was that it

·8· ·wasn't a good idea, but can tell you what exactly --

·9· ·I'm not, you know, best friends or anything, we're

10· ·just fellow pastors who have worked on The Black

11· ·Brown Coalition in Greensboro and things like that,

12· ·to address police brutality and things like that.

13· · · · Q.· · But you don't know for sure whether he's

14· ·accompanied people to DMV or not?

15· · · · A.· ·No, I don't know that For sure.

16· · · · Q.· ·And speaking of involvement in this

17· ·lawsuit, how did you become a plaintiff in this

18· ·lawsuit?

19· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· I'm going to object to the

20· · · · form of the question and instruct you not to

21· · · · answer to the extent that doing so would reveal

22· · · · privileged communications.· If your answer does

23· · · · not involve communications with your attorney,

24· · · · you're free to answer.

25· · · · A.· ·I think the main reason that I got

Page 81·1· ·involved was from my conversation with the NAACP and

·2· ·my discussions with Reverend Barber and other

·3· ·plaintiffs who were trying to figure out how the law

·4· ·would affect their constituents and from working

·5· ·with them to try to prevent the legislature from

·6· ·passing the law and gathering information for our

·7· ·legislators to understand the impact of the law, and

·8· ·calling churches and people and realizing that this

·9· ·was going to affect many, my re-election campaign,

10· ·the students that I have worked with, the people

11· ·that I have advocated for that, I could represent

12· ·them in many ways, even though I'm not currently a

13· ·pastor of a church, in my capacity as an elected

14· ·official, I could.

15· · · · Q.· ·Did someone in particular ask you to

16· ·become a plaintiff in a lawsuit?

17· · · · A.· ·I should not answer that.

18· · · · Q.· ·Did an attorney ask you to become a

19· ·plaintiff in the lawsuit?· I'm not asking what the

20· ·attorney said.

21· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Limit your answer to yes or

22· · · · no.

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And can you identify that attorney?

25· · · · A.· ·Should I?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 21 of 26

Page 82·1· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can identify the

·2· · · · individual but beyond that, I instruct you not

·3· · · · to answer.

·4· · · · A.· ·Katelyn Swain.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And is Katelyn Swain with a law firm or

·6· ·with an organization?

·7· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.

·8· · · · A.· ·The Advancement Project.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And the last person listed in

10· ·Interrogatory 20 you had identified as having

11· ·knowledge of the allegations of the Complaint is a

12· ·Chris Liu-Beers, is that how you say that?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes, he was at the time I was answering

14· ·this, the person that worked -- the minister with

15· ·the North Carolina Council of Churches that was

16· ·doing immigrant work with the churches and I did

17· ·many presentations to churches with him, workshops

18· ·on immigration, and I really don't think he knows

19· ·much, but he knows because at the time that I was

20· ·organizing against this bill, he and I were doing

21· ·workshops.· He doesn't work for the North Carolina

22· ·Council of Churches anymore, he resigned in 2014.

23· ·He does web design now.· So I -- I don't know if he

24· ·has kept up at all with this.· I don't know what he

25· ·knows now.· He knew that I was lobbying against the

Page 83·1· ·bill and what impact I thought it would have.

·2· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to hand you a document I'm going

·3· ·to mark as Exhibit 10.

·4· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 10 WAS MARKED FOR

·5· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

·6· · · · Q.· ·Will you take a moment and let me know if

·7· ·you recognize this document?

·8· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And you can just let me know whenever

10· ·you're ready for some questions.

11· · · · A.· ·I recognize this, I read it again.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you recognize this document as

13· ·a declaration that you submitted earlier in this

14· ·lawsuit?

15· · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember signing it around

17· ·April 29 of 2014?

18· · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· ·And I want to direct your attention to

20· ·Paragraph 4 of this document.· And I believe this

21· ·was signed before the 2014 primary that was held in

22· ·May; is that right?

23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · Q.· ·And you said in Paragraph 4 that you were

25· ·worried that a chilling effect could be created for

Page 84·1· ·many naturalized citizens during the soft rollout of

·2· ·photo ID during 2014.· Do you see that?

·3· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form, I think it

·4· · · · mischaracterizes the document.· There's a -- it

·5· · · · refers back to a preceding paragraph.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, the preceding paragraph states that

·7· ·your legal documents that you obtained in the United

·8· ·States did not match other legal documents such as a

·9· ·birth certificate, is that fair?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And you also reference the fact that some

12· ·Latinos have discrepancies between the names that

13· ·appear on some of their legal documents and the

14· ·names that appear on other documents; is that right?

15· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

16· · · · Q.· ·And I believe in Paragraph 4 you stated

17· ·that you were worried that that would have a

18· ·chilling effect on citizens during this soft rollout

19· ·of photo ID in the 2014 elections; is that right?

20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

21· · · · Q.· ·And what was the soft rollout photo ID

22· ·that you were referring to there?

23· · · · A.· ·There was some confusion and I think

24· ·that's reflected on my answer.· I know that they

25· ·asked people if they had a photo ID, and so I can't

Page 85·1· ·tell you how many people I called from the voter

·2· ·list that -- to tell them, you know, are you

·3· ·planning to vote?· Do you need transportation?· That

·4· ·said I've heard I have to have an ID that I have to

·5· ·show.· And I had to say, reassure them that no, that

·6· ·they would be asked but they could say yes and not

·7· ·show their ID.· So it created the perception that

·8· ·IDs were needed.· That was a very generalized

·9· ·misconception, which is why those little information

10· ·mini brochures, whatever you called them were so

11· ·important in giving them out to people at fairs and

12· ·putting then out at the tiendas saying you do not

13· ·need to show your ID.· But I knew that just passing

14· ·the law and having that requirement now in the law

15· ·was going to have a chilling effect.· I think that's

16· ·what I meant.· I don't know exactly what I meant by

17· ·soft rollout.· I know I heard that word a lot and

18· ·now thinking back, I probably understood better than

19· ·what I'm thinking now in looking back.

20· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if there was in fact a

21· ·chilling effect in the 2014 elections?

22· · · · A.· ·We saw less participation of Latinos in

23· ·2014 than in 2012.· I do think in part that was due

24· ·to the misunderstandings and the misconceptions that

25· ·there was a new scary law.· It had been in all the

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 22 of 26

Page 86·1· ·newspapers.· There was all the debate about same day

·2· ·registration and there was all the, you know, I do

·3· ·think people stayed home.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Now, 2012 was a presidential election

·5· ·year, right?

·6· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·7· · · · Q.· ·So based upon your experiences, are

·8· ·generally higher participation in presidential

·9· ·election years rather than midterm election years?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes, but Latinos were mad at Obama because

11· ·of the -- not passing immigration reform, so I don't

12· ·think it -- I -- I think it's been -- it was a

13· ·big -- a big election for North Carolina, I mean,

14· ·the Senate race was in all the newspapers.· Yeah,

15· ·usually you have more people turning out for

16· ·presidential elections but when you call people and

17· ·they ask you, the first thing they ask you is about

18· ·the ID, you know that it is having some effect.

19· · · · Q.· ·Do you know about the rate of

20· ·participation of Hispanic and Latino voters in 2014

21· ·as compared to 2010, which was the last midterm

22· ·election?

23· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form.

24· · · · A.· ·No, actually, I can't say I did that

25· ·comparison.

Page 87·1· · · · Q.· ·And in the last sentence in Paragraph 4

·2· ·you say that, "Immigrants with the proper photo ID

·3· ·may also be fearful that if the person inspecting

·4· ·the photo ID perceives any irregularities, the photo

·5· ·ID will be confiscated and they will lose it."· What

·6· ·is the basis for that statement?

·7· · · · A.· ·Things like happened to my friend Mya,

·8· ·experiences with the DMV refusing to accept papers

·9· ·that they don't understand that are legitimate, you

10· ·know, saying "Well, this doesn't count.· I don't

11· ·know what it is," because it's a birth certificate

12· ·from another country or things like that.· I mean

13· ·having people lose their license and go to get a

14· ·duplicate like in the case of the lady I accompanied

15· ·and being told no, you can't have it.· Well, what if

16· ·somebody at this poling place decides that this

17· ·license is fake, because I don't look like my

18· ·picture anymore, because I died my hair blond, would

19· ·they have the authority to keep my license?· There

20· ·is a distrust of governmental offices and a fear,

21· ·you know.

22· · · · Q.· ·But the only two specific instances you

23· ·are aware of was the incident with Ms. Sanchez that

24· ·we talked about earlier, right, and the incident

25· ·that you said occurred in 2005 that involved the

Page 88·1· ·sit-in that you were --

·2· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·3· · · · Q.· ·-- talking about?

·4· · · · A.· ·No, I'm aware of a lot of instances of

·5· ·people not being able to renew their licenses and

·6· ·having to go back home for documents or having to go

·7· ·to Raleigh or to an embassy, a Columbian friend who

·8· ·had to go to Washington D.C. after her divorce. I

·9· ·mean it's just -- you'd be amazed at the trouble

10· ·people have.· If you wanted to document problems

11· ·with the DMV, I think that would be probably a good

12· ·case for discrimination and harassment but, you

13· ·know, that's a different story, but it really --

14· ·it's pervasive, it's pervasive.

15· · · · Q.· ·And are there any other specific instances

16· ·that you can recall sitting here today?

17· · · · A.· ·Not right now, sorry, not with a name and

18· ·a time.

19· · · · Q.· ·With respect to your own driver's license

20· ·and the name issue that we spoke about earlier, have

21· ·you made any efforts so far to try to get to the

22· ·Teresa included in your name on your license?

23· · · · A.· ·I have to, I need to but, you know, Social

24· ·Security Office is in Durham and it takes time, it's

25· ·probably going to be a whole morning, so I'm going

Page 89·1· ·to before the elections for sure but no, I have -- I

·2· ·have not.· I keep trusting that hey, they wouldn't

·3· ·turn me away or no, this is not going to be a big

·4· ·issue but I need to make myself do it.

·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to refer your attention to

·6· ·Paragraph 20 of this declaration.

·7· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And I think in the last sentence you

·9· ·mention that many Latinos attend church on Saturday

10· ·or Sunday, and it's during these church services

11· ·that shared rides to voting are coordinated.· Do you

12· ·see that?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.

14· · · · Q.· ·And so is that part of Souls to the Poles

15· ·or is that something else?

16· · · · A.· ·Well, that's what most African American

17· ·churches call it.· Obviously, Hispanic church

18· ·wouldn't call it Souls to the Poles since most

19· ·everything is in Spanish but I did -- when you have

20· ·people who are voting, so many -- voting -- who are

21· ·working so many days and so many shifts, carving out

22· ·time for church is really important for the family,

23· ·at least, of course as a pastor, I felt like it and

24· ·when it becomes important for a family, it takes a

25· ·lot of energy to get your work situation arranged so

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 23 of 26

Page 90·1· ·that you can actually go to church on a regular

·2· ·basis.· So you're already using the time off you

·3· ·have and the little leverage you have to get time

·4· ·off, to get time off for that activity and

·5· ·coordinate that with your children and your wife and

·6· ·so to carve out a different time, an additional time

·7· ·when there are limited days and limited power of the

·8· ·individual to say I will take time off this day or I

·9· ·can't -- can I have time off.· The fewer days you

10· ·have to vote, and the fewer different days you have

11· ·to vote becomes an issue, because it's harder to

12· ·match, you know, the day off you have and the

13· ·opportunity to vote with those days, so the more

14· ·Saturdays and Sundays you have.

15· · · · · · ·Also a lot of information, like I

16· ·mentioned earlier is by word of mouth and so if you

17· ·go to church on Sunday and you find out oh, this is

18· ·early voting, this is, you know, there's going to be

19· ·transportation available, if there's not another

20· ·weekend for you to vote and your schedule's already

21· ·out, you're working your two jobs, you know, Monday

22· ·through Friday, you have to pick up kids from

23· ·school, you have to do this, it becomes very

24· ·difficult.· So yes, but Souls to the Poles is a

25· ·great program that I have copied.· Orange County

Page 91·1· ·does not make it easy for, you know, churches to do

·2· ·this.· Greensboro was much better, Guilford County.

·3· ·And we asked for Sunday voting but we didn't get a

·4· ·poling place on campus, we didn't get, you know,

·5· ·there are a lot of things that are becoming harder

·6· ·and harder.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And that was here in Orange County?

·8· · · · A.· ·In 2014, yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And who makes the decision about whether

10· ·there is Sunday voting and dates and times of early

11· ·voting and so on?

12· · · · A.· ·The Board of Elections -- there are three

13· ·people that are selected.

14· · · · Q.· ·And based upon your experience with

15· ·Hispanic and Latino churches, I know you said you

16· ·worked with a couple and you were a former pastor.

17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

18· · · · Q.· ·What days of the week do they typically

19· ·have services?

20· · · · A.· ·A Sunday, but there is a Hispanic Destigo

21· ·Sabiot Crunch that has services on Saturday, so

22· ·Saturday and Sunday, weekends.· Many churches have

23· ·services in the afternoon because they share

24· ·buildings or facilities with Anglo churches, yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask you about one more

Page 92·1· ·document here.· I'm going to mark -- I think we're

·2· ·up to Exhibit 11.

·3· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 11 WAS MARKED FOR

·4· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

·5· · · · Q.· ·I just want to ask you about what this

·6· ·document is, if you recognize it.· I'll represent to

·7· ·you this is a document that was produced to us by

·8· ·your attorneys and has your name at the top, so

·9· ·that's why I was asking you about it.

10· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

11· · · · Q.· ·If you want to take a moment and look at

12· ·it and let me know if you're ready for some

13· ·questions, that will be great.

14· · · · A.· ·All right.

15· · · · Q.· ·At the top of the page it says WCHL

16· ·Commentary, do you see that?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·What does that refer to?

19· · · · A.· ·It's a radio station, a.m. radio station

20· ·here in Chapel Hill.

21· · · · Q.· ·And what is this document?· Is this

22· ·something you wrote?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so for what purpose did you

25· ·write this?

Page 93·1· · · · A.· ·To get people motivated to vote.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And this was a commentary that you gave on

·3· ·the radio?

·4· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·5· · · · Q.· ·The WCHL station here in Chapel Hill?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And you gave this commentary before the

·8· ·2012 elections?

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay.· I don't think I have

11· · · · any further questions for Ms. Palmer at this

12· · · · time.

13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Why don't we go off the record

14· · · · for just a minute?

15· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

16· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS

17· · · · · · · BY MR. MANER:

18· · · · Q.· ·Back on the record.

19· · · · · · ·Ms. Palmer, I just have a couple of very

20· ·short questions and then we should be finished.

21· · · · A.· ·Okay.

22· · · · Q.· ·You've mentioned or you've used the term

23· ·"immigrant" a few times throughout your testimony

24· ·today.

25· · · · A.· ·Okay.

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 24 of 26

Page 94·1· · · · Q.· ·When you use that term, are you referring

·2· ·to people who immigrated to the U.S. and became

·3· ·naturalized citizens?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, and for the purpose of these -- of

·5· ·these questions, I was talking about voters who are

·6· ·citizens, who in the case of immigrants have to go

·7· ·through naturalization to become citizens.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Shifting gears a little bit, you

·9· ·mentioned a few times in your testimony earlier

10· ·today that you've engaged in Get Out To Vote

11· ·Efforts, Voter Outreach and specifically that you've

12· ·taken voters to the poles so that they could vote.

13· ·In doing that, how did you determine which poling

14· ·place to take those individuals to vote?

15· · · · A.· ·Well, if they could tell me where they had

16· ·voted before, that was helpful.· If not, I would

17· ·look up their address.· There's a website, I tried

18· ·to know ahead of time who I was taking and where I

19· ·was picking them up so I could look up.· The Board

20· ·of Elections has a map and you can put in an address

21· ·and it tells you the precinct.· In fact, you can

22· ·look up the person's registration and it tells you

23· ·where they should vote.

24· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever intentionally taken someone

25· ·to the incorrect precinct so they could vote?

Page 95·1· ·A.· ·No.

·2· · · · MR. MANER:· Okay.· I don't have any

·3· ·further questions, unless there's any redirect.

·4· · · · MR. McKNIGHT:· No, none for me.

·5· · · · MR. MANER:· Anyone else have any

·6· ·questions?

·7· · · · MS. GREENE: I have no questions.

·8· · · · MR. MANER:· Thank you so much for your

·9· ·time.

10· · · · (WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT

11· ·12:07 P.M.)

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14· · · ·I, Maria Teresa Unger Palmer, have read the foregoing

15· ·deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true

16· ·and correct, except as noted above.

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Maria Teresa Unger Palmer

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20

21· ·Sworn to and subscribed before me

22· ·________________________________,Notary Public.

23· ·This________day of_____________________, 2015.

24· ·My Commission Expires:__________________________

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Page 99·1· · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E

·2· · · · ·I, Lynn A. Ruggiro, Shorthand Reporter and Notary

·3· ·Public, do hereby certify that the above-named witness was

·4· ·duly sworn by my prior to the taking of the foregoing

·5· ·deposition; and that said deposition was taken and

·6· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

·7· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

·8· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness.

·9· · · · I do further certify that the persons were present as

10· ·stated in the caption.

11· · · · I do further certify that I am not of counsel for or in

12· ·the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor am

13· ·I interested in the results of this action.

14· · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name

15· ·this 18th day of March, 2015.

16

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270

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YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015

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1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

DEPOSITION OF

YOLANDA M. PAYLOR

2

1 DEPOSITION OF

2 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR

3 ___________________________________________________

4 10:20 a.m.

5 Thursday, April 30, 2015

6 ___________________________________________________

7

RENAISSANCE ASHEVILLE HOTEL

8

31 WOODFIN STREET

9

ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA

10

11

12

13 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:4

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE5 BY: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.6 Washington, DC 20530

(800) 305-18407 avner.shapiro@usdoj.gov8

Counsel for Defendant Patrick Lloyd McCrory:9

BOWERS LAW OFFICE10 BY: BUTCH BOWERS, ESQ.

1419 Pendleton Street11 Columbia, SC 29201

(803) 753-109912 butch@butchbowers.com13

Reported By:14

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS15 AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER

BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR16 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 100017 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 649-999818 denise@discoverydepo.com19

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4

1 I N D E X

2 PAGE

3 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOWERS 5

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5 E X H I B I T S

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 13

YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015

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5

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 * * * * * *

3 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR,

4 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the

5 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,

6 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,

7 testified as follows:

8 EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. BOWERS:

10 Q. Ms. Paylor, good morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. We met earlier this morning, but for the record,

13 my name is Butch Bowers. I'm a lawyer from

14 Columbia, South Carolina, and I represent Governor

15 McCrory in the litigation that brings us here

16 today.

17 Have you ever had your deposition taken

18 before?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So this is the first time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. So let's go over a few ground rules.

23 MR. SHAPIRO: If I may interrupt, I may

24 just get my name on the record.

25 MR. BOWERS: Oh, I'm sorry.

6

1 MR. SHAPIRO: No problem. I'm Avner

2 Shapiro. I'm an attorney representing the United

3 States, which is one of the plaintiffs in this

4 matter. Sorry to interrupt.

5 MR. BOWERS: That's quite all right.

6 Pardon my rudeness for not asking you to put your

7 name on the record.

8 BY MR. BOWERS:

9 Q. So, Ms. Paylor, your first deposition, so some of

10 the ground rules are quite simple. Whenever I ask

11 a question or if Mr. Shapiro asks a question, let

12 us finish the question before you answer.

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. That way it's easier for the court reporter to

15 take down everything that we say.

16 Secondly, make sure that you give verbal

17 responses instead of uh-huh or un-hun or, you

18 know -- or a head nod.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So just verbal responses so she can take them down

21 for the transcript.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Is that fair?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you ever need to take a break during the

7

1 deposition -- this should not take terribly long,

2 but if you need to take a break at any point, just

3 say, "Can we take a break?" And we will. The

4 only thing I would ask is that if you have -- if

5 there's a question pending and you want to take a

6 break, answer that question first and then we'll

7 take a break, okay?

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. All right. Tell us, please, ma'am, your full

10 name.

11 A. Yolanda Marie Paylor.

12 Q. And Ms. Paylor, what's your date of birth?

13 A. 1990.

14 Q. And where do you currently reside?

15 A. I live here in Asheville.

16 Q. What's your address?

17 A. 349 Haw Creek Mews Drive, Asheville, North

18 Carolina 20 -- 28805.

19 Q. Is that Buncombe County?

20 A. Yes, it's Buncombe County.

21 Q. How long have you resided at that address?

22 A. I moved in June of last year.

23 Q. Okay. So in June of 2014 you moved to the current

24 address?

25 A. Yes.

8

1 Q. Okay. Where did you move from?

2 A. I moved from Carrboro, North Carolina. It's ten

3 minutes outside of Chapel Hill.

4 Q. And what county is that in?

5 A. Orange County.

6 Q. Okay. How long did you live in Orange County?

7 A. I lived in Orange County this past time for two

8 years. I had moved there two years prior.

9 Q. Okay. How about this, it might be easier to do it

10 this way, starting when you were 18 years old, so

11 you -- if my math is right, you're 25 now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. So starting when you were 18, tell me

14 where -- where you've resided and for how long.

15 A. So at 18 I moved from Orange County, my parents'

16 home, to Forsyth County where I went to undergrad.

17 Q. And where was that?

18 A. Winston-Salem State University.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. And then I stayed there four years and then moved

21 back to Orange County to go to medical school at

22 UNC-Chapel Hill, which is in Orange County again.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And then I stayed there two years and moved out

25 here for this past year to Buncombe County.

REDACTED

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9

1 Q. Okay. I should have asked you this earlier. Are

2 you represented by an attorney here in this

3 deposition?

4 A. As far as I know, I'm represented by -- no, I'm

5 not.

6 MR. SHAPIRO: The answer to that is no, she

7 is not represented.

8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not. Sorry.

9 MR. SHAPIRO: She's a third-party witness.

10 BY MR. BOWERS:

11 Q. Okay. Do you have a lawyer?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. What did you do to prepare for today's

14 deposition?

15 A. I just met Mr. Shapiro yesterday and then he came

16 in today.

17 Q. Okay. What did y'all discuss?

18 A. We talked about what will happen today and just

19 the main points of being truthful and just getting

20 me through my first deposition, since I had never

21 done -- so just informing me about what would be

22 going on today.

23 Q. Okay. Did y'all talk about this lawsuit?

24 A. We talked about my experiences at the poll.

25 Q. Okay. And I'll ask you some questions about that

10

1 in a little bit.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. How did you become aware of this lawsuit?

4 A. I received a phone call informing me about my vote

5 not counting.

6 Q. Who called you to tell you that?

7 A. It was -- her name was Joy, and she was part of

8 the cold calling committee. I don't -- I don't

9 know exactly her title, but it was someone with

10 the -- Mr. Shapiro.

11 Q. Was it somebody with the Justice Department?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. When did you receive that call?

14 A. It was in March, maybe around March 10th because I

15 was at the travel clinic getting vaccinations to

16 go abroad.

17 Q. Okay. So just four or six weeks ago?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Before you got that call, had you heard or

20 read about this lawsuit that brings us here today?

21 A. I had heard things, but I didn't know that it was

22 something that was actually happening. I had

23 heard something about IDs being required, but that

24 was the extent of my knowledge before.

25 Q. Have you seen any documents related to this

11

1 lawsuit?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Have you seen your deposition notice?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know who all the parties are in the

6 lawsuit?

7 A. I believe I know it's -- I just know some of the

8 plaintiffs, which is the NAACP --

9 Q. Tell me --

10 A. -- the U.S. and the -- and that's about all I

11 know.

12 Q. Okay. That's fine. And it's not a memory test.

13 I'm just, you know -- this is my opportunity -- my

14 one opportunity to ask you under oath questions,

15 and so what I'm trying to do is just find out your

16 knowledge about the lawsuit in general and about

17 the issues in the lawsuit.

18 Do you know who the defendants are?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. I'm sorry.

22 Q. That's okay. Did you have any knowledge -- do

23 you -- strike that.

24 Do you know what the lawsuit is about?

25 A. It's about changes in voter registration

12

1 requirements and procedures, as far as I know.

2 Q. Okay. And that's -- the only thing you can

3 testify to is as far as you know. So that's fine.

4 Do you know when those changes were

5 implemented?

6 A. No. I didn't even know they had been implemented

7 until I received that phone call.

8 Q. Okay. So you graduated from Winston-Salem

9 State --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- correct? Where did you go to high school?

12 A. Orange High School in Orange County.

13 Q. Okay. And then did you -- did you go to medical

14 school immediately after undergrad?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Okay. And you were at Chapel Hill in medical

17 school there at UNC Medical School?

18 A. Yes. I'm currently still there, but it's just a

19 partnership with MAHEC, the education system out

20 here in Asheville.

21 Q. Okay. So you were -- tell me about your -- I'm

22 interested in your -- your medical education. So

23 is it -- does it still take four year to graduate

24 medical school?

25 A. It does still take four years. So -- I took a

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 3 of 13

YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015

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4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 sabbatical this past year, and so I'll be starting

2 my third year in July and then I'll have another

3 year after that.

4 Q. Okay. So you finished your -- excuse me. You

5 finished your second year of medical school?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you finish that?

8 A. I finished that -- the coursework was finished in

9 June of 2013, last year.

10 Q. 2014?

11 A. Yes, 2014, yes.

12 Q. Okay. So you took a sabbatical?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And moved to Buncombe County?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Because we have a longitudinal program, so UNC

18 students that go into the longitudinal track here

19 in Asheville, we move to Asheville versus doing

20 small rotations throughout the state; we do them

21 all here in Asheville, so I moved under the

22 assumption that I would be starting my third year

23 last year, but I ended up not, and so I just

24 stayed out here --

25 Q. Okay.

14

1 A. -- since I was going to start in July.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. -- of this year.

4 Q. Tell me what a longitudinal program is.

5 A. So the longitudinal program is basically you go to

6 various clinics, and you have all your rotations

7 throughout the year versus an eight-week stint, a

8 six-week stint of different specialties, like

9 normally it would be eight weeks of neurology, six

10 weeks of OB/GYN; that's like the traditional

11 track, but the longitudinal track we do them all

12 year.

13 Q. And is it always in Asheville or is it all over

14 the state?

15 A. It's always in Asheville or surrounding areas of

16 Asheville.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And does that count as your third year of medical

20 school?

21 A. Yes, it does.

22 Q. Okay. And then for your fourth year of medical

23 school what will you do?

24 A. So as a longitudinal student you have the option

25 of staying here another year or returning back to

15

1 Chapel Hill.

2 Q. What are you going to do?

3 A. I don't know yet. I don't like moving, so I might

4 stay. I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. And then how many -- how many students, if

6 you know, do the longitudinal program versus the

7 traditional track?

8 A. At Chapel Hill?

9 Q. At Chapel Hill?

10 A. There's 20 of us out here in Asheville. Ten are

11 in Charlotte and then ten do the traditional

12 program in Charlotte and then the other 150 do the

13 traditional program in Chapel Hill.

14 Q. Is it competitive to get into the longitudinal

15 program?

16 A. It can be. There were quite a few applicants this

17 year or the year that I applied, but yeah, it can

18 be competitive.

19 Q. What -- what do you want to do when you graduate

20 medical school?

21 A. I want to practice family medicine.

22 Q. Okay. And are you getting -- will you get that

23 experience in the longitudinal program?

24 A. Yes. We have a family medicine preceptor once a

25 week that we are with and then residency and then

16

1 I'll be on my own as a physician.

2 Q. What did you major in in college?

3 A. Biology.

4 Q. Did you always know you wanted to go to medical

5 school?

6 A. I know I wanted to do something in the medical

7 profession, but it definitely became a physician

8 in undergrad. I definitely knew that's what I

9 wanted to do.

10 Q. Do you have any family members who are physicians?

11 A. No, and I'm also a first generation college

12 student.

13 Q. Excellent. Are you registered to vote?

14 A. Yes, as of now.

15 Q. What do you mean as of now?

16 A. I thought I had registered because I had sent in

17 my information with a voter registration person

18 when they come in, but through a turn of events I

19 actually was not registered, so I had to do the

20 provisional.

21 Q. When did you think you had registered to vote?

22 A. It's on my Instagram. Do you know what Instagram

23 is? I took a picture.

24 Q. Do I look that old that I wouldn't know what

25 Instagram is?

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17

1 A. I'm so sorry. But it was sometime around the

2 beginning of the school year, because I had just

3 started volunteering at a -- at a center that

4 helped kids with tutoring, so school had just

5 started for them. So it was around -- school

6 starts in like August or September.

7 Q. Sort of around August of 2014?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Had you been registered to vote prior to

10 that?

11 A. Yes, in Orange County.

12 Q. Okay. When is the first time in your life you

13 registered to vote?

14 A. I was 18, and it was in Orange County when I first

15 registered.

16 Q. Okay. Did you register to vote in person; do you

17 recall?

18 A. I do believe that I did. I went and -- well, I

19 believe I registered and voted the same day

20 because there was a local election going on, and I

21 felt proud to be voting in my first election.

22 That's if my memory serves me right.

23 Q. Okay. And then when you went to college at -- and

24 what county did you tell me, Winston-Salem?

25 A. Forsyth.

18

1 Q. Forsyth County.

2 When you went to college, did you change

3 your voter registration address to your school

4 address or did you keep it at your parents' home

5 in Orange County?

6 A. I changed it to my school address.

7 Q. Okay. And did you vote while you were in college?

8 A. I did. I did vote.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember like every single election

10 or do you recall?

11 A. I recall voting places, and so that's how I

12 remember.

13 Q. What do you mean vote --

14 A. Like I remember where I voted. I can visualize

15 the place.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. So then that's how I know how many times I voted.

18 Q. Okay. How many times do you think you voted while

19 you were in college?

20 A. While I was in college?

21 Q. Yes, ma'am.

22 A. I would say two. I think two.

23 Q. Okay. What were the years you were in college?

24 A. I was enrolled from 2012 to 2000 -- no. 2008 to

25 2012. Excuse me.

19

1 Q. Okay. And the two times that you voted, were

2 those the presidential election?

3 A. The first was --

4 Q. Elections, plural, excuse me.

5 A. The first was in -- was the Obama/McCain -- yes,

6 and the second I believe was just a local

7 election.

8 Q. Okay. Did you have any trouble voting in those

9 elections?

10 A. No. I believe I had changed my voter registration

11 and then voted that day because I had moved, so I

12 had to change my county.

13 Q. Okay. Did you know that you could keep your

14 parents' address as your -- as your registered

15 voting address at that time?

16 A. I'm not certain.

17 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes facts not

18 in evidence and foundation.

19 BY MR. BOWERS:

20 Q. And that's -- Ms. Paylor, that's one other thing I

21 should have told you at the outside; if you

22 hear either one of us -- like when he's asking

23 questions and if you hear me start speaking, stop

24 and let us finish. If you -- while I'm asking you

25 questions, if you hear Mr. Shapiro speak, just go

20

1 ahead and stop and let him get his objection on

2 the record, okay?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. All right. Now -- so you can go ahead and answer.

5 He's -- his objection is noted for the record.

6 A. Okay. Could you repeat the question?

7 Q. Sure. Did you consider -- I'll rephrase it.

8 Did you consider keeping your voter

9 registration address at your parents' address in

10 Orange County when you went off to college?

11 A. I did not consider that, I don't believe, because

12 I had a mailing address on campus, and so I

13 figured why not just go ahead and register in that

14 county.

15 Q. How did you know to register -- that you had to

16 change your voter registration address to that

17 county if you wanted to use that address as your

18 home address?

19 A. I think it was because the election was coming up

20 and the students -- the SGA or Student Government

21 Association was informing people of things, and so

22 the consensus that most people were going to do is

23 just change the -- the address because it would be

24 easier. We could vote right on campus.

25 Q. Okay. So was there like a voter registration

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21

1 drive or something like that where the student

2 government makes it known to folks that, hey, if

3 you want to -- if you want -- students, if you

4 want to register here, you can? Was it something

5 like that or it was just known?

6 A. I think -- it wasn't like an organized thing. It

7 was just word of mouth via campus, and I'm pretty

8 sure it had to start with SGA because they know

9 everything, but I think that, if I can remember

10 correctly what I was facing at that time was

11 absentee ballot or register here, and I think that

12 was the extent of my knowledge at the time. I was

13 like, do I send in -- and I didn't feel like

14 dealing with all that. So I just was like, I'll

15 register in the county that I'm living in.

16 Q. Okay. So, when you finished college in 2012,

17 remind me again where -- where did you move to?

18 A. I moved back to Orange County.

19 Q. Back to Orange County, okay. And did you change

20 your voter registration address back to Orange

21 County?

22 A. I did, yes, and it was in 2012 that I changed it

23 back.

24 Q. Okay. And so you were there in Orange County from

25 2012 until June of 2014; did I get that timeline

22

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Did you ever vote in Orange County after

4 you had finished college?

5 A. I did. I voted in the second Obama election.

6 Q. Okay. So by November of 2012 you had moved back

7 to Orange County and I guess started medical

8 school, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Did you have any trouble voting then?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you register and vote on the

13 same day in that election?

14 A. In that election someone came to my house and --

15 it was a voter registration drive thing.

16 Q. Okay. And tell me about that. Somebody just

17 showed up at your door and said, "hey, do you want

18 to register to vote or are you registered to

19 vote?"

20 A. That was exactly it, uh-huh.

21 Q. Okay. And you said something along the lines of,

22 "I am, but I've just moved"? Or how did that --

23 how did that conversation go, if you recall?

24 A. I -- I said that I had moved and I'm registered,

25 but I'm not registered in this county and I would

23

1 like to.

2 Q. And did they have the paperwork for you to fill

3 out?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And I filled it out and gave it back.

7 Q. Okay. And then who was it that was doing the

8 drive; do you know?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Did they tell you -- was it like with the Obama

11 campaign or with the Romney campaign or a

12 political party or you just don't know?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Okay. And then you gave it back to them and you

15 just hoped that they would get it submitted

16 properly?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And they did because I was able to vote.

20 Q. Okay. Did you vote anytime in Orange County after

21 the 2012 presidential election?

22 A. I don't believe so.

23 Q. Okay. Then you moved here to Buncombe County?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And did you -- you're an old pro at

24

1 changing your voter registration to match your

2 county of residence by this point. So did you --

3 did you think about changing your home of

4 residence for voting purposes when you moved here?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Okay. When did you do that?

7 A. That was around the time school started because

8 there was another person who had the voter

9 registration form.

10 Q. Who was that?

11 A. It was someone that was doing it for someone at

12 MAHEC. They weren't -- it was just like a -- just

13 a person doing a good deed type of thing, I guess,

14 if that makes sense. They weren't affiliated with

15 anything.

16 Q. What is MAHEC?

17 A. Oh, I'm sorry.

18 Q. That's okay.

19 A. The Mountain Area Health Education Center.

20 Q. And is MAHEC part of UNC medical school?

21 A. They are who UNC medical school is partnering with

22 to allow the 20 students to come out here.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. They do have residency programs; MAHEC has

25 residency programs.

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25

1 Q. Okay. And so someone at MAHEC -- tell me about

2 how you became aware of the opportunity to change

3 your voter registration at MAHEC.

4 A. So where I volunteer -- the gentleman that is over

5 the coordination of where I volunteer, he was

6 asked to do it by an employee at MAHEC, and so she

7 was just trying to get high school -- newly

8 18-year-olds to register to vote. So it was

9 easier because he worked with high school

10 students, so she was asking him, and because I

11 volunteered there, he had an extra form and I

12 filled it -- filled it out.

13 Q. Okay. And you gave it to him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then what did he do with it?

16 A. He informed me that he submitted it directly to

17 the Board of Elections.

18 Q. Okay. But you didn't take it yourself?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And did you ever get any independent documentation

21 from the Board of Elections notifying you that it

22 had been changed?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. How about back in 2012 when you -- when you

25 got it changed -- I think you testified that in

26

1 2012 somebody came to your door in Orange County?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. It was a voter registration drive?

4 A. Uh-huh. Yes. I'm sorry.

5 Q. That's okay. You filled out a form, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And gave it to this person?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And then you trusted that they would submit

10 it to the Board of Elections?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did -- and apparently they did because you were

13 able to vote, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. My question is then: Did you get anything

16 from the Board of Elections like a new voter

17 registration card in the mail?

18 A. I believe I did.

19 Q. Okay. Back in 2012?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And now I'll fast forward to 2014 when you

22 registered at MAHEC or not at MAHEC but you filled

23 out the paperwork there?

24 A. Right. Yes.

25 Q. And you gave it to -- do you remember the guy's

27

1 name that you gave it to?

2 A. Yes. It was Preston Stephon Roach.

3 Q. Preston Stephon Roach?

4 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

5 Q. Is that R-O-A-C-H-E?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Do you still -- do you still stay in

8 contact with him?

9 A. Every now and then.

10 Q. Okay. Was he -- is he a medical student also?

11 A. No. He's a -- he's just a program coordinator at

12 the nonprofit that I used to volunteer.

13 Q. Okay. And what was the time frame when he -- when

14 you filled out that paperwork and gave it to

15 Mr. Roach?

16 A. Somewhere between August and September of 2014.

17 Q. So when school was starting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And did you ever get a voter -- a new voter

20 registration card from the Buncombe County Board

21 of Elections?

22 A. Not that I recall. Not that I recall.

23 Q. Okay. Since you did get one in 2012 when you

24 changed your county of residence, did you not

25 think about, well, wait a minute; I need to get a

28

1 new voter registration card in 2014?

2 A. Well, with the change of address and sometimes

3 getting other people's mail, I didn't -- I didn't

4 even think about it. I just assumed it was coming

5 because sometimes they aren't -- they had been

6 delayed, and I did get one -- I didn't -- I didn't

7 get one. I'm sorry.

8 Q. Okay. So you -- from whenever it was, August or

9 September until November when the election came

10 around, did you ever contact the Board of

11 Elections and say, "Hey, I just want to check on

12 my registration"?

13 A. I did -- I did not.

14 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Roach, "Hey, did you fill

15 out -- did you submit that paperwork?"

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And what did he say?

18 A. And he -- he said he did.

19 Q. Okay. Okay. So you -- did you -- when did you go

20 to vote in 2014? Was it on Election Day, or was

21 it during early voting, or do you recall?

22 A. It was during early voting, most likely on a

23 Saturday or Friday before November 4th.

24 Q. Did you -- were you concerned that you were

25 showing up to vote in a new county? Because you

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29

1 hadn't voted in Buncombe County, had you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Did you -- were you concerned at all that

4 you were showing up to vote in a new county and

5 you didn't have a voter registration card?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You weren't?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. Because I had assumed that everything was

11 copacetic.

12 Q. Okay. But you didn't do anything to independently

13 verify that everything was copacetic, did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. So you showed up to vote on you think it

16 was a Saturday, pretty sure it was a Saturday?

17 A. A Saturday or a Friday.

18 Q. Okay. Was it -- let's assume it was a Saturday

19 just for purposes of this question, and it doesn't

20 really matter, but was it the first Saturday of

21 early voting or was it the last Saturday of early

22 voting right before the election; do you know what

23 I mean?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Like Election Day is on a Tuesday. Do you recall?

30

1 A. I don't recall if it was -- I want to say that it

2 was the Saturday before November 4th, like that

3 first Saturday before, but I'm not 100 percent

4 about that.

5 Q. Okay. But your -- your best recollection is it

6 probably was two or three days before Election Day

7 and not ten days before Election Day, but you're

8 not sure either way?

9 A. No, but I don't think it was in the earlier part

10 of early voting registration --

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. -- or early voting.

13 Q. Okay. So you showed up to vote. Did you have to

14 wait very long; do you recall?

15 A. I didn't have to wait very long to check in.

16 Q. Okay. And then what happened?

17 A. The lady -- or the poll worker said that my name

18 wasn't on the list, and so she sent me to another

19 poll worker.

20 Q. Did you -- what did you say?

21 A. I told her that I had registered to vote ahead of

22 time before the election period.

23 Q. And then what was her response, "Go see this other

24 person"?

25 A. Basically -- you know, well, you're not

31

1 registered, so...

2 Q. Did anybody ask to see your voter registration

3 card?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Did anybody ask to see your photo ID?

6 A. I want to say yes because I thought it was -- I

7 didn't remember doing that previously, but I -- I

8 don't want to give that a definite answer, but I

9 think that she did ask me for my ID and I thought

10 she was doing it to see how my name was spelled;

11 maybe that's why she couldn't find it.

12 Q. Okay. So then you went to the second -- was it

13 the poll manager or another poll worker?

14 A. I think it was just another poll worker.

15 Q. Okay. And then what did that person do?

16 A. She said she had to call to check to see what was

17 going on.

18 Q. Okay. And then what happened?

19 A. And then she called, and I sat down at a table,

20 and she said, "Just fill this out." And it was a

21 piece of paper.

22 Q. And what was that piece of paper; do you recall?

23 A. I don't remember exactly what it was.

24 Q. Okay. And then did you cast a provisional ballot?

25 A. I don't remember if it was -- if the word

32

1 provisional was stated, but I was given a ballot,

2 which I submitted.

3 Q. Was it a paper ballot?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. The whole station was paper ballot.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was a provisional ballot

8 or a regular ballot?

9 A. To my knowledge, it looked like a regular ballot.

10 It didn't -- to me it didn't look any different

11 than what I had seen before in paper ballots.

12 Q. Okay. Did anybody tell you it was a provisional

13 ballot or they just said, "Here, you can vote"?

14 A. I don't remember the word provisional.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. So I can't definitely answer that.

17 Q. Okay. And when you left the polling place, did

18 you feel like you had voted?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Okay. And until March of 2015, so like for the

21 last -- pardon my math -- maybe six or seven

22 months you felt like you voted --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- correct?

25 Okay. And somebody from the Justice

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33

1 Department called you and said, "Hey, your vote

2 didn't count"?

3 A. Exact -- correct.

4 Q. Okay. Since you got that phone call, have you

5 independently verified that with the Board of

6 Elections?

7 A. Could you rephrase that?

8 Q. Sure. So the person who called you from the

9 Justice Department, they said, "Ms. Paylor, we've

10 verified your identity," I guess, and they said,

11 "Your vote in 2014 did not count"?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. Right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Did you independently verify that yourself

16 by contacting the Board of Elections and asking

17 them, "Hey, did my vote count?"

18 A. I did.

19 Q. You did?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. When did you do that?

22 A. Maybe two weeks ago. Because the office is

23 moving, so I had called a while ago, but they took

24 forever to get back to me.

25 Q. Which office is moving?

34

1 A. The Board of Elections.

2 Q. Okay. So do you know where the Board of Elections

3 office is here in Buncombe County?

4 A. I do currently, but I don't know where they're

5 moving to.

6 Q. You know where it is currently though?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How far is that from your residence, if you know?

9 A. Maybe 10 to 15 minutes.

10 Q. On foot or in a car?

11 A. In a car.

12 Q. Okay. Do you own a car?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Okay. And I assume you have a driver's license?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. So maybe 10 to 15 minutes by car to the

17 Board of Elections --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- in Buncombe County?

20 Okay. And you called about two weeks ago?

21 A. I called maybe about a month ago the first time.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. But it took a while to get back to me, and -- and

24 then when she called I was unavailable, called

25 back, and she took a while again to get back, and

35

1 so it was about two weeks ago maybe that we

2 actually had a conversation.

3 Q. And how did that conversation go?

4 A. I asked her about things being on file, if I had

5 anything on file, and she said, the only thing I

6 have was what I -- what was provided on Election

7 Day, whatever -- that paper that I filled out, but

8 I hadn't had anything prior to that.

9 Q. Did you ask her if Mr. Roach had turned in your --

10 your application?

11 A. I do believe I did, and she said this is

12 something -- because she had so many documents

13 that's not something she could remember, like him

14 actually turning it in, one person turning it in.

15 Q. Did she happen to know who Mr. Roach was

16 personally?

17 A. I didn't ask that.

18 Q. Okay. And she told you your vote didn't count?

19 A. Yes, but she said I would -- she said my vote

20 didn't count, correct.

21 Q. Okay. Did you fill out paperwork at the polling

22 place to register to vote on that -- on that day?

23 A. I believe that's what I was doing. In my mind

24 that's what I thought I was doing.

25 Q. Okay. And then when you talked to the lady on the

36

1 phone here a couple weeks ago -- was it a lady? I

2 think --

3 A. It was.

4 Q. Okay. When you talked to the lady a couple weeks

5 ago on the phone, did she tell you that "Your vote

6 didn't count in 2014 but you are now currently

7 registered to vote"? Did she tell you that?

8 A. Yes, and that I would be able to vote in the

9 next -- next election, but that the previous one

10 did not count.

11 Q. Okay. So as we sit here today, you are currently

12 registered to vote?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In Buncombe County?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have a voter registration card?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So how --

19 A. This is -- I only know what the lady at the Board

20 of Elections said. That's what she told me, that

21 I was registered even though I -- no, I have not

22 received a voter registration card yet.

23 Q. Okay. Are you going to try to get one before

24 November?

25 A. That would be nice.

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37

1 Q. Is that a yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So after this phone call with the Board of

4 Elections lady, since that time have you contacted

5 or spoken with Mr. Roach?

6 A. I have not.

7 Q. Okay. Okay. I think I asked you this earlier,

8 but just to make sure I have it in the record, so

9 the law that's at issue in this lawsuit, you don't

10 know when it was passed, do you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Tell me, please, what your understanding of

13 the changes are.

14 A. I understand now that you can't register and vote

15 in the same day and that a license is required.

16 That's the extent of my knowledge before all this,

17 you know, with the deposition and things like

18 that. The extent of my knowledge was something

19 about an ID, but then after this and talking with

20 the Board of Elections now I understand it's --

21 you need an ID and you can't register and vote in

22 the same day.

23 Q. Okay. And that's your understanding of the

24 changes?

25 A. Yes.

38

1 Q. Okay. And when you say ID, do you mean a photo

2 ID?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked as a -- have you ever

5 worked for any County Board of Elections?

6 A. No. Yes, the answer is no. I was just making

7 sure. No, I have not.

8 Q. Have you ever done any work regarding elections,

9 whether for the Board of Elections or otherwise?

10 A. I did some door knocking to get people out to the

11 polls.

12 Q. When did you do that?

13 A. This last year.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. In this -- before this last local election.

16 Q. Who did you do that for?

17 A. It was for Planned Parenthood.

18 Q. Was there an issue on the ballot or was it a

19 candidate that Planned Parenthood was supporting

20 or opposing, or do you recall?

21 A. I believe -- there was a candidate that they were

22 supporting, but in our speeches we -- we

23 weren't -- we weren't allowed to say parties or

24 particular candidates. We were just supposed to

25 get people out to vote.

39

1 Q. Were you also registering people if they weren't

2 registered to vote?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. We were just getting them out to vote.

6 Q. Was it on Election Day?

7 A. No, it was before Election Day.

8 Q. Was it during the early voting period or was it

9 before that even?

10 A. It started before that, but it extended into some

11 of the early voting period or -- the early voting

12 period.

13 Q. Did you get paid for that work or was it

14 volunteer?

15 A. It was pay -- paid.

16 Q. Okay. And you were paid by Planned Parenthood you

17 think?

18 A. On the W-2 it says Community Outreach.

19 Q. Okay. What is Community Outreach; do you know?

20 A. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked as a -- as a poll

22 worker in a polling place?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Have you ever worked as a poll manager?

25 A. No.

40

1 Q. Have you ever -- ever -- strike that.

2 Have you ever served as a poll watcher?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked for a candidate or a

5 political party as a -- as an observer in a

6 polling place?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you -- when you were in college did you ever

9 work for any campaigns or candidates or political

10 parties?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. BOWERS: Can we take a break?

14 * * *

15 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

16 proceedings from 11:06 a.m. to 11:10 a.m.)

17 * * *

18 BY MR. BOWERS:

19 Q. Okay. Ms. Paylor, we're back on the record.

20 Have you ever registered to vote in person

21 at a Board of Elections office?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Are you aware that you can do that?

24 A. I didn't have anything solidified, but using

25 common sense I guess I can say yes.

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41

1 Q. And on the -- on the day that you cast a ballot in

2 2014, when you left the polling place, did you

3 think you had cast a ballot when you were finished

4 voting?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. So there was no reason for you to go to the

7 Board of Elections on Monday and say, "Hey, I need

8 to make sure my voter -- I'm registered to vote"?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Because in your mind you believed that you

11 were registered to vote?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. But after you gave your application to

14 Mr. Roach, you never did anything to independently

15 verify that you were registered to vote, correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Can I just --

19 Q. Sure.

20 A. The extent of what I did was asked him if he

21 submitted it. That was the extent.

22 Q. You asked Mr. Roach?

23 A. (Nods head.)

24 Q. Okay. And he said?

25 A. Yes.

42

1 Q. Okay. But he doesn't work for the Board of

2 Elections, does it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know if he collected any other

5 applications at the same time he collected yours?

6 A. I'm not 100 percent, but he was collecting some of

7 the new -- newly turned 18-year-olds.

8 Q. So it's probably likely?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Have you asked -- do you know any of those

11 newly 18 -- newly turned 18-year-old people?

12 A. I do not.

13 Q. Okay. So I think it's safe to assume -- did you

14 ask any of them -- have you asked any of them,

15 "Hey, did you get registered to vote?"

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Do you think you were harmed by the law?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How?

22 A. Because until recently I had no issue changing

23 registration and registering to vote in a new

24 county and voting the same day, and so I think

25 it's definitely emotional toll because of just

43

1 history in general with African Americans and

2 voting, and to exercise my right and then for it

3 not to be counted, I just -- that was -- that

4 definitely had an effect on me, you know, and to

5 get out to vote sometimes it can be -- sometimes

6 you have to squeeze it in, and then you make it

7 work, and then it's for nothing. You know, it's

8 almost like my voice was taken from me, and that

9 definitely isn't -- that isn't a good feeling.

10 Q. Okay. I think you just testified that previously

11 you had experience changing your county of

12 residence on the same day as you cast a ballot?

13 A. Or registering to vote, yes.

14 Q. Okay. But previously you testified -- correct me

15 if I'm wrong, but I think you testified that when

16 you initially registered to vote at age 18 you

17 voted on the same day, but when you changed county

18 of residence, you did that with a door-to-door

19 volunteer, correct?

20 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.

21 THE WITNESS: That was --

22 MR. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes previous

23 testimony.

24 BY MR. BOWERS:

25 Q. You can answer.

44

1 A. That was only one time that someone came to my

2 door. I had changed my residence more than that.

3 Q. All right. But you changed your -- let's see.

4 Let me go back and make sure I got it correct. So

5 you registered to vote in Orange County the first

6 time at age 18?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you do that at the polling place?

9 A. I believe I did.

10 Q. And voted the same day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Then when you went to Winston-Salem --

13 Winston-Salem State, you changed your voter

14 registration again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you do that?

17 A. I don't remember exactly, but I don't remember it

18 being two different events. I -- I don't know for

19 certain though.

20 Q. Okay. And then when you moved back to Orange

21 County --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- that's when the person came to your door and

24 you gave them a form --

25 A. Yes.

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12 (Pages 45 to 48)

45

1 Q. -- correct?

2 And then when you moved to Buncombe County,

3 you gave your form to Mr. Roach?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. So the -- is it fair to say that the only

6 time that you're certain that you registered and

7 voted on the same day was when you were 18?

8 A. I believe so, yes.

9 Q. Okay. So, in fact, it's possible that you had

10 never changed your voter registration and voted on

11 the same day, correct?

12 A. I can't say if that's true because I don't recall

13 if I did it in Winston-Salem or not.

14 Q. But it's possible?

15 A. It's possible.

16 Q. Okay. Is there any other way you think you were

17 harmed by the law?

18 A. No, but I don't know all that is encompassed by

19 this law, so I don't know what future

20 repercussions might be in store because of this

21 law.

22 Q. But you do have a photo ID, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And to your knowledge, you're currently registered

25 to vote in Buncombe County?

46

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at some point between now and November you're

3 going to check to see if you have a voter

4 registration card, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you don't currently have one?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you didn't have one when you tried to vote in

9 2014 either, did you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. BOWERS: I don't have any further

13 questions.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 MR. SHAPIRO: I think there was something

16 came up that may require clarification. I'm not

17 sure if it does. Let me just check that out.

18 Can we go off the record for a moment?

19 * * *

20 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

21 proceedings from 11:18 a.m. to 11:21 a.m.)

22 * * *

23 MR. SHAPIRO: I have no further questions.

24 BY MR. BOWERS:

25 Q. So the time that Mr. Shapiro took to look over his

47

1 notes I came up with another question. I warned

2 you. This is the way lawyers are.

3 Do you plan on appearing as a witness in

4 this trial?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know when the trial is tentatively

7 scheduled for?

8 A. In July.

9 Q. Do you know where it's going to be held?

10 A. Winston-Salem.

11 Q. Okay. And you plan on attending and appearing as

12 a witness?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Has the Justice Department or anybody else

15 told you that they would pay for your travel?

16 A. No. I don't remember. I don't think so.

17 Q. Okay. Are you planning on paying for your own way

18 to go to Winston-Salem and appear --

19 A. I believe that I would be -- have a night that

20 they would help with paying for a night stay. The

21 travel I'm not certain of, but I don't mind

22 driving it on my own anyway.

23 Q. Okay. But the lodging and maybe a meal or two

24 might be provided by somebody else?

25 A. They didn't say anything about a meal.

48

1 Q. But they did say lodging?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. Yes?

4 A. Yes. Sorry.

5 Q. That's okay. Who -- who said that to you?

6 A. Mr. Shapiro.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. BOWERS: No further questions.

9 MR. SHAPIRO: No further questions.

10 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]

11 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 11:23 A.M.]

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 12 of 13

YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

13 (Pages 49 to 51)

49

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T OF D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, YOLANDA M. PAYLOR, declare under the penalties

4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have

5 read the foregoing 48 pages, which contain a correct

6 transcription of answers made by me to the question

7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or

8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached

9 hereto, if any.

10 Signed this, the _____ day of _________,

11 2015.

12

13

14 __________________________

15 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR

16

17 State of:______________

18 County of:_____________

19 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ______ day

20 of _____________, 2015.

21

22 __________________________

23 Notary Public

24 My commission expires:____________________

25

50

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases

3 Witness Name: YOLANDA M. PAYLOR

4 Deposition Date: Thursday, April 30, 2015

5 Page/Line Reads Should Read

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23 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

24 _______________________ _________________

25 Signature Date

51

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )

3

4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court

5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the

6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify

7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing

8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of

9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability

10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 6th day of May, 2015.

20

21 ____________________________

22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR

23 Notary Public No. 20020910053

24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 13

·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA·2

·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)

19· ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,· · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)20· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)21· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV861· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)22· ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)23· · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)· · ·____________________________________)24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 15

Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1

·2· · ·VIDEOTAPED TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF MARY PERRY

·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Taken by Defendants)

·4· · · · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina

·5· · · · · · · · · · · March 12, 2015

·6

·7

·8

·9

10· ·Reported by:· Lynn A. Ruggiro,

· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter

11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public

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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:·3· · · · · ·Michael Glick, EsWquire· · · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP·4· · · · · ·655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005·5· · · · · ·(202) 879-5218· · · · · · ·michael.glick@kirkland.com·6·7· · · · · ·Donita Judge, Esquire· · · · · · ·Project Director·8· · · · · ·1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 850· · · · · · ·Washington, d.c. 20005·9· · · · · ·(202) 728-9557· · · · · · ·djudge@advancementproect.org10· · · · · · ·Penda D. Hair, Esquire11· · · · · ·ADVANCEMENT PROJECT· · · · · · ·Suite 85012· · · · · ·1220 L Street N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 2000513· · · · · ·phair@advancementproject.com14· ·Counsel for United States of America:15· · · · · ·Judybeth Greene, Esquire· · · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE16· · · · · ·Civil Rights Division· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW17· · · · · ·Washington DC· 205430· · · · · · ·(202) 616-235018· · · · · · judybeth.greene@usdoj.gov19· ·Counsel for the Defendants State Board of Elections:20· · · · · ·Michael D. McKnight, Esquire· · · · · · ·OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.21· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100· · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 2760922· · · · · ·(919) 787-9700· · · · · · ·michael.mcknight@odness.com232425

Page 4·1· ·Also Present:

·2· · · · · ·Carl Rehl, Videographer

·3· · · · · ·Irving Joyner, Professor of Law

· · · · · · ·NCCU School of LAW

·4· · · · · ·1512 S. Alston Avenue

· · · · · · ·Durham, North Carolina· 27707

·5· · · · · ·(919) 530-6293

· · · · · · ·ijoyner@nccu.edu

·6

·7· · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF MARY PERRY,

·8· ·taken by the Defendants, at the Law Offices of N.C advocates

·9· ·for Justice, 1312 Annapolis Drive, Raleigh, North Carolina,

10· ·on the 12th day of March, 2015 at 1:04 p.m. before Lynn A.

11· ·Ruggiro, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter.

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS

·2· ·THE WITNESS: Mary Perry· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

·3· · · ·BY:· Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7, 48

·4· · · ·BY:· Mr. Glick· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·35

·5

·6· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS

·7· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·8· ·Exhibit 7· · Plaintiff's Responses & Objections

·9· · · · · · · · to Defendant's First Set of

10· · · · · · · · Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · · · ·16

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 2 of 15

Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · PROCEEDINGS

·2· · · · MR. REHL:· We are now on the record, the

·3· ·time is 1:03.

·4· · · · MR. GLICK:· This is Michael Glick at

·5· ·Kirkland and Ellis.· Earlier this morning we

·6· ·had a deposition of Rosanell Eaton and for the

·7· ·sake of the record, just wanted to clarify who

·8· ·was listening on the phone call during that

·9· ·deposition.

10· · · · So Ms. Hair, would you like to make an

11· ·appearance?

12· · · · MS. HAIR:· Yes, I would.

13· · · · MR. GLICK:· Just state --

14· · · · MS. HAIR: Penda D. Hair, Penda D. Hair

15· ·with Advancement Project, representing the

16· ·North Carolina NAACP and the other group of

17· ·plaintiffs associated with them.

18· · · · MR. GLICK:· Okay.· We are -- Plaintiffs

19· ·are fine to close the deposition of Ms. Eaton

20· ·after that appearance and we can start Ms.

21· ·Perry's deposition now if that's all right with

22· ·you.

23· · · · MR. McKNIGHT:· That's fine with me.

24· · · · MR. REHL:· Would the court reporter please

25· ·swear in the witness?

Page 7·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·MARY PERRY

·2· · ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

·3· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

·4· · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·5· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Perry.

·6· · · · A.· ·Good afternoon.

·7· · · · Q.· ·My name is Michael McKnight and I'm an

·8· ·attorney with the Ogletree Deakins law firm and

·9· ·we're here today to take your deposition in a

10· ·lawsuit known as North Carolina State Conference of

11· ·the NAACP versus McCrory.· That lawsuit is pending

12· ·in Federal Court in the Middle Distinct of North

13· ·Carolina.

14· · · · · · ·I am one of the attorneys serving as

15· ·co-counsel for the State Board of Elections,

16· ·Defendants in this matter along with the North

17· ·Carolina Attorney General's Office.· Rich Bowers and

18· ·Bob Stephens represent Governor Pat McCrory, the

19· ·other defendant named in this lawsuit.

20· · · · · · ·At this time, I will allow plaintiff's

21· ·counsel to introduce themselves for the record.

22· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Michael Glick, Kirkland and

23· · · · Ellis on behalf of the North Carolina Chapter

24· · · · of the NAACP as well as Ms. Perry.

25· · · · · · ·MS. JUDGE: Donita Judge, Advancement

Page 8·1· · · · Project representing the North Carolina NAACP

·2· · · · and Mrs. Perry.

·3· · · · · · ·MR. JOYNER:· Irv Joyner, North Carolina

·4· · · · NAACP and Mrs. Perry.

·5· · · · · · ·MS. GREENE:· Judybeth Greene representing

·6· · · · the United States of America.

·7· ·By MR. McKNIGHT:

·8· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, we're here taking your

·9· ·deposition because you were named as a plaintiff in

10· ·this lawsuit that challenges a law that was passed

11· ·in 2013 that is referred to in the lawsuit as House

12· ·Bill 589.· Are you familiar with that law?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·And so if I mention House Bill 589 during

15· ·the course of our conversation today, will you know

16· ·what I'm referring to?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever had your deposition

19· ·taken before?

20· · · · A.· ·No.

21· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever testified in court

22· ·before?

23· · · · A.· ·No.

24· · · · Q.· ·And if you will please, Ms. Perry, it may

25· ·help you if you speak up so that I can be sure to

Page 9·1· ·hear your answers --

·2· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.

·3· · · · Q.· ·-- and the court reporter.

·4· · · · A.· ·No.

·5· · · · Q.· ·If you don't understand or hear my

·6· ·questions today, will you please let me know?

·7· · · · A.· ·I will.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And we can certainly take a break at any

·9· ·time that you need to but I would ask that you

10· ·answer any question I have pending before we take a

11· ·break.· Is that fair?

12· · · · A.· ·Fair.

13· · · · Q.· ·And do you understand that you have an

14· ·obligation to respond truthfully to any questions

15· ·that are asked today?

16· · · · A.· ·I do.

17· · · · Q.· ·And is there any reason why you could not

18· ·testify truthfully today?

19· · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · Q.· ·Did you do anything to prepare for today's

21· ·deposition?

22· · · · A.· ·Not really.

23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Other than your attorney, did you

24· ·speak with anyone about the deposition today?

25· · · · A.· ·No.

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 3 of 15

Page 10·1· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever been a party in any lawsuit

·2· ·other than this lawsuit?

·3· · · · A.· ·No.

·4· · · · Q.· ·I know from different things that I've

·5· ·read about you that you've been involved with voter

·6· ·registration, voter education, various political

·7· ·efforts for at least 40 years, maybe even longer

·8· ·than that; is that right?

·9· · · · A.· ·That's true.

10· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell me how you got started

11· ·with your involvement in those things?

12· · · · A.· ·Well, I was a little girl, I had a mentor

13· ·that was involved and I became involved because of

14· ·her and because of things that happened to me

15· ·personally and in the community.

16· · · · Q.· ·And what sorts of things specifically are

17· ·you talking about?

18· · · · A.· ·And even -- even not only as a little girl

19· ·but as I got older as a grown person.· One of the

20· ·things that happened was I was at a movie with my

21· ·cousin and my cousin -- someone stepped on her toe

22· ·standing in line waiting to go into the movie, and I

23· ·asked the girl whether she was going to say --

24· ·apologize and from that, the law was called and I

25· ·was taken down to the police station.· Nobody said

Page 11·1· ·anything to her.

·2· · · · Q.· ·I understand.· Any other incidents that

·3· ·led to your involvement in voter registration, voter

·4· ·education and similar efforts?

·5· · · · A.· ·I had a cross burn in my yard during the

·6· ·school in the seventies.

·7· · · · Q.· ·You said that was in the 1970s?

·8· · · · A.· ·In 1970.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else?

10· · · · A.· ·Well, I saw the need because other people,

11· ·as I stated, that my mentor was very involved and so

12· ·she got me -- I became involved.

13· · · · Q.· ·I understand.· Well, the lawsuit here that

14· ·we're here to talk about today makes several

15· ·allegations about the effect that House Bill 589

16· ·will have on North Carolina voters.· Do you think

17· ·the changes to the law made by House Bill 589 has

18· ·affected your ability to vote in any way?

19· · · · A.· ·Well, personally, it has not affected me

20· ·personally but other people it has, some people I

21· ·know.

22· · · · Q.· ·And who do you know -- go ahead.

23· · · · A.· ·One of the things is that, it maybe has

24· ·affected me personally because -- because of when I

25· ·went to vote, the long line.

Page 12·1· · · · Q.· ·And which time that you went to vote are

·2· ·you speaking of specifically?

·3· · · · A.· ·When I went to early voting.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And was that in 2014?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And where did you go to vote in 2014?

·7· · · · A.· ·Knightdale fire -- Knightdale precinct.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And are you speaking of the primary

·9· ·election in 2014 or the general election?

10· · · · A.· ·The general election.

11· · · · Q.· ·And I believe you said you voted at the

12· ·Knightdale Fire Station?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes, because I did early voting.

14· · · · Q.· ·And you said the line was long there?

15· · · · A.· ·The line was long, that Saturday was extra

16· ·long.

17· · · · Q.· ·And how long was the line?

18· · · · A.· ·Not only was the line long, the parking,

19· ·we had to drive around twice to find a parking place

20· ·and the line was all the way out down -- down the

21· ·road down.

22· · · · Q.· ·How long did you wait to vote that day?

23· · · · A.· ·I didn't vote that day, I voted early. I

24· ·carried someone to vote that day.· I voted during

25· ·the week.

Page 13·1· · · · Q.· ·So the day you saw the line long was a

·2· ·Saturday?

·3· · · · A.· ·It was on Saturday, yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And you said that you voted early --

·5· ·earlier in the week before that?

·6· · · · A.· ·In the week, I voted early in that same

·7· ·week.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Was that before or after you took that

·9· ·person to the poles?

10· · · · A.· ·I voted before I carried the person to the

11· ·poles.

12· · · · Q.· ·And did you have to wait to vote?

13· · · · A.· ·I had to wait a little while but not as

14· ·long as I did that Saturday.

15· · · · Q.· ·Now, the person you took to vote, how long

16· ·did they have to wait?

17· · · · A.· ·About 25 minutes.

18· · · · Q.· ·And were they ultimately able to vote that

19· ·day?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes, they voted.

21· · · · Q.· ·And how long would you say that you had to

22· ·wait to vote when you voted?

23· · · · A.· ·About ten minutes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And you were able to vote that day?

25· · · · A.· ·The day that I voted, I didn't vote the

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 4 of 15

Page 14·1· ·same day they voted.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· I understand.

·3· · · · · · ·Did you have any other problems voting

·4· ·during the November 2014 general election?

·5· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And did you vote in the primary election

·7· ·in May of 2014?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And what method of voting did you use in

10· ·that election?

11· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't remember.· I know I

12· ·voted.

13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember having any

14· ·problems voting in the May 2014 primary?

15· · · · A.· ·No.

16· · · · Q.· ·And other than the lady who you said you

17· ·took to vote that Saturday during early voting who

18· ·had to wait for 25 minutes, are there any other

19· ·individuals who you are aware of who had problems --

20· · · · A.· ·I had people tell me that they were not

21· ·able to vote.

22· · · · Q.· ·And how many people told you they were not

23· ·able to vote?

24· · · · A.· ·I can't give you the specific number but

25· ·I'd say around five or six.

Page 15·1· · · · Q.· ·And did they tell you they were not able

·2· ·to vote at all or that they had to come back and

·3· ·vote later, what were the circumstances?

·4· · · · A.· ·Those the ones told me they were not able

·5· ·to vote at all.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And you remember any names of the people

·7· ·who told you they were not able to vote at all?

·8· · · · A.· ·No.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And where did they tell you they were not

10· ·able to vote?· Do you know the locations they tried

11· ·to vote?

12· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't know if it was at Carboro

13· ·Schools and the one of the precincts on Poole,

14· ·Central Baptist Church.

15· · · · Q.· ·But you didn't accompany -- I'm sorry, you

16· ·didn't accompany any of those folks --

17· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't.

18· · · · Q.· ·-- to the poles, did you?

19· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't.

20· · · · Q.· ·And for the sake of clarity of the record,

21· ·if you'll wait for me to finish my question before

22· ·you answer, I know that we're on the same page and

23· ·you know where I'm going, which is terrific, but

24· ·that will help the court reporter out.

25· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)

Page 16·1· · · · Q.· ·So you didn't accompany any of those

·2· ·people to the poles; is that right?

·3· · · · A.· ·No.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And do you know any specific reasons why

·5· ·any of those people said that they were not able to

·6· ·vote at all?

·7· · · · A.· ·They might have told me but I forgot.

·8· · · · Q.· ·I hand you a document now that we're going

·9· ·to mark as NAACP Exhibit 7.

10· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP EXHIBIT 7 WAS MARKED

11· ·FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

12· · · · Q.· ·And the reason why it's Exhibit 7, just

13· ·for your knowledge, is that we had six in Ms.

14· ·Eaton's deposition this morning, we're just

15· ·continuing those numbers.· So I'm going to hand

16· ·these to counsel.· And I'll give you a moment to

17· ·look at that document, then I'm going to ask you

18· ·some specific questions about some of these

19· ·responses here.· And what I'll represent to you is

20· ·that this document is a copy of responses and

21· ·objections to Interrogatories that the defendants in

22· ·this case served on your attorneys and asked that

23· ·you answer.· And so I guess my first question is, is

24· ·this a document that you've seen before or do you

25· ·know?

Page 17·1· · · · A.· ·I haven't seen this before.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, we'll go over some of the

·3· ·specific answers and if you see an answer here to

·4· ·one of these Interrogatories that we discussed and

·5· ·something's not correct, will you let me know?· And

·6· ·Ms. Eaton, you're welcome to take as much time as

·7· ·you need to look at this document and just let me

·8· ·know when you're ready for some questions.

·9· · · · A.· ·You mean Ms. Perry.

10· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry, Ms. Perry, I apologize.

11· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Michael, it may be easier if

12· · · · there are Interrogatories that you have

13· · · · particular questions about, if you can just say

14· · · · what one it is and then she can read that one

15· · · · and then if you want to move onto another one,

16· · · · we'll do that, is that okay?

17· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I'm fine doing it either

18· · · · way.· I wanted to give her as much time as she

19· · · · needed to look at these though before I ask any

20· · · · questions.

21· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Okay.

22· · · · Q.· ·So Ms. Eaton, I'm sorry, Ms. Perry, I'm

23· ·programmed from this morning.

24· · · · A.· ·It's okay.

25· · · · Q.· ·I apologize.· You'll have to wrap me over

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 5 of 15

Page 18·1· ·the head if I do it again.

·2· · · · · · · Ms. Perry, I want to look at

·3· ·Interrogatory Number 2, and that would be about

·4· ·three pages in or so.· I don't think the pages are

·5· ·numbered at the bottom.· And this Interrogatory is

·6· ·just asking your name and address.· And is this your

·7· ·correct name that's listed here, Mary Ethel Perry?

·8· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And your address is listed as 3109 Lizard

10· ·Lick Road in Wendell; is that correct?

11· · · · A.· ·That is correct.

12· · · · Q.· ·And how long have you lived at that

13· ·address?

14· · · · A.· ·Since -- well, since I've lived there,

15· ·when I first moved there, the address was different

16· ·but I lived at the same place, but it used to be

17· ·Marshman Road, they changed it to Lizard Lick Road.

18· ·I've been there since 1948.

19· · · · Q.· ·1948; is that right?

20· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

21· · · · Q.· ·And have you always been registered to

22· ·vote at that address?

23· · · · A.· ·Since the time I was voted, yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And what poling place do you go to vote at

25· ·if you go on election day?

Page 19·1· · · · A.· ·510 Fire Station.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And I see that your date of birth is

·3· · , 1929; is that correct?

·4· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·5· · · · Q.· ·That would make you about 85 years old,

·6· ·right?

·7· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

·8· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask you some questions about

·9· ·Interrogatory Number 2.· Interrogatory Number 2 asks

10· ·about organizations in which you have been a member

11· ·or otherwise involved in the last ten years that

12· ·conducted Get Out the Vote, voter registration and

13· ·voter engagement activities.· And one of the

14· ·organizations you've listed there is Item 4, which

15· ·is the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP.

16· ·And I see that you're a member of the North Carolina

17· ·State Conference of the NAACP; is that correct?

18· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

19· · · · Q.· ·And you currently hold a position with

20· ·them?

21· · · · A.· ·I do.

22· · · · Q.· ·And what is that?

23· · · · A.· ·District Director, District 10.

24· · · · Q.· ·And how long have you held that position?

25· · · · A.· ·About six or seven years.

Page 20·1· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever been president of a

·2· ·branch of the NAACP?

·3· · · · A.· ·I have.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And I understand you hold a record for

·5· ·being the longest branch president as in the history

·6· ·of the North Carolina NAACP or the nation?

·7· · · · A.· ·The nation.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Which branch were you president?

·9· · · · A.· ·Wendell Wake.

10· · · · Q.· ·And what years were you president of that

11· ·branch?

12· · · · A.· ·I was president for 41 years.· I don't

13· ·know, I didn't write the number.

14· · · · Q.· ·Fair enough.· And as District Director for

15· ·the organization for District 10, what are you

16· ·responsible for?

17· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I'm going to object.· The

18· · · · question goes to the internal organization --

19· · · · internal operations of the organization and

20· · · · instruct the witness not to answer on First

21· · · · Amendment grounds, so...

22· · · · Q.· ·Well, are you responsible for voter

23· ·registration and voter engagement activities in that

24· ·position?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes.

Page 21·1· · · · Q.· ·And what sorts of voter registration and

·2· ·voter education activities do you engage in in that

·3· ·position?

·4· · · · A.· ·I didn't understand you.

·5· · · · Q.· ·She asked me to repeat my question.

·6· · · · · · ·What sorts of voter registration and voter

·7· ·education activities do you do with the North

·8· ·Carolina NAACP?

·9· · · · A.· ·We have voter registration drives where we

10· ·get people to go out in the various sites and

11· ·register people to vote.

12· · · · Q.· ·And I see that you are also involved with

13· ·an organization called Project Vote; is that right?

14· · · · A.· ·I was, I was -- I was a State Director for

15· ·the Project Vote.

16· · · · Q.· ·And do you roughly remember when that was

17· ·that you were State Director?

18· · · · A.· ·I don't remember, it's been a long time.

19· · · · Q.· ·But you think in the last ten years?

20· · · · A.· ·No, it's been longer than that.

21· · · · Q.· ·And you're also a member of the North

22· ·Carolina State Executive Committee of the Democratic

23· ·Party; is that right?

24· · · · A.· ·I was, I'm not no longer a member.

25· · · · Q.· ·And do you hold any position with the

REDACTED

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 6 of 15

Page 22·1· ·Democratic Party currently?

·2· · · · A.· ·I'm Precinct Chair 0901.

·3· · · · Q.· ·I want to look at the response to

·4· ·Interrogatory Number 4.· It starts at the bottom of

·5· ·one page and it goes onto another, and basically

·6· ·Interrogatory Number 4 ask that you detail the

·7· ·activities that you engaged in in the organizations

·8· ·that were listed in Interrogatory Number 2, some of

·9· ·which we just talked about.· I'm looking at Item 7

10· ·under the response to Interrogatory Number 4.· And

11· ·this talks about your activities with the Democratic

12· ·Women of Wake County.· And it says, "Ms. Perry,

13· ·along with the organization partnered with community

14· ·groups to conduct GOTV, which is Get Out to Vote,

15· ·and voter registration drives."· And it says that

16· ·you also encouraged voters to vote in their

17· ·precincts.· Is that true?

18· · · · A.· ·With the Democratic women, I'm just a

19· ·member, a paying member.· I don't do anything.

20· · · · Q.· ·In the past, have you engaged in Get Out

21· ·To Vote and voter registration drives with

22· ·Democratic women?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.

24· · · · Q.· ·And have you encouraged voters to vote in

25· ·their precincts as a part of those Get Out To Votes

Page 23·1· ·efforts?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, to tell them where they're supposed

·3· ·to go to vote.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And why is it important for people to vote

·5· ·in the correct precinct?

·6· · · · A.· ·Well, if only election day, you have to

·7· ·vote in your precincts.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what's the consequence if you

·9· ·don't?

10· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal

11· · · · conclusion.

12· · · · · · ·You can answer, Ms. Perry.

13· · · · Q.· ·If you know.

14· · · · A.· ·Why is it important to vote in precinct?

15· ·But if they don't know where their precinct is, then

16· ·we won't be allowed to vote period.· They used to

17· ·give you provisional ballots but no.

18· · · · Q.· ·Are you saying that they won't give a

19· ·provisional ballot now?

20· · · · A.· ·No.

21· · · · Q.· ·And --

22· · · · A.· ·Under this new law.

23· · · · Q.· ·And what's that based on, is that based

24· ·upon your understanding of the law or did somebody

25· ·tell you that?

Page 24·1· · · · A.· ·It's based on my understanding, that's

·2· ·what I understood.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before House Bill 589 became

·4· ·law, do you know whether peoples' vote counted or

·5· ·not if they cast at the wrong precinct?

·6· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal

·7· · · · conclusion.

·8· · · · · · ·If you know the answer, Ms. Perry, you can

·9· · · · answer.

10· · · · A.· ·I don't know whether -- what happened to

11· ·it, because I'm not there.

12· · · · Q.· ·Do you think there was a change in the law

13· ·with respect to whether out of precinct votes

14· ·counted in House Bill 589 or do you know?

15· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal

16· · · · conclusion.

17· · · · A.· ·I don't know.

18· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· You can answer.

19· · · · A.· ·I don't know.

20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I want to look at the answer to

21· ·Interrogatory 5.· And in this Interrogatory, you

22· ·were asked to describe with specificity any problems

23· ·you have encountered while attempting to vote in any

24· ·North Carolina election.· And you described a

25· ·problem that you had during the 2012 presidential

Page 25·1· ·election there.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I would note for the record

·3· · · · that the date of this document is February 18,

·4· · · · 2014, so it's prior to the 2014 election.

·5· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· And I'm going to ask about

·6· · · · that as well, so objection noted.

·7· · · · · · ·So Ms. Perry, tell me about the problem

·8· · · · you had voting during the 2012 presidential

·9· · · · election.

10· · · · A.· ·Well, I got stated that, you know, waiting

11· ·in the long lines.· Personally, myself, after a

12· ·problem I haven't had problems with voting except at

13· ·my age, I'm getting up in age, I can't stand in long

14· ·lines a long time.

15· · · · Q.· ·How did you vote in the 2012 presidential

16· ·election?

17· · · · A.· ·How did I vote?

18· · · · Q.· ·Well, not who did you vote for, that's a

19· ·bad question, I apologize.

20· · · · · · ·What method of voting did you use?· Did

21· ·you vote in early voting or did you vote on election

22· ·day or did you vote absentee?

23· · · · A.· ·I voted early.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you saying that you had to

25· ·wait in a long line during the 2012 election when

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 7 of 15

Page 26·1· ·you voted early?

·2· · · · A.· ·I waited for, because you know, that's the

·3· ·presidential election, it was a long line.· That was

·4· ·something different from ordinary elections.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And how long was the line in that

·6· ·election, if you remember?

·7· · · · A.· ·It wasn't as long as it was last year.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember how long you waited to

·9· ·vote in the 2012 presidential election?

10· · · · A.· ·Maybe about five or ten minutes.

11· · · · Q.· ·You said five or ten minutes?

12· · · · A.· ·About ten.

13· · · · Q.· ·Are you certain --

14· · · · A.· ·About ten.

15· · · · Q.· ·And before 2014, did you have any other

16· ·problems or issues when you voted in any election

17· ·that you can remember sitting here today?

18· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't have any problems

19· ·personally.

20· · · · Q.· ·And in this response to Interrogatory 5,

21· ·it states you have witnessed and assisted others who

22· ·have encountered problems while attempting to vote.

23· ·Can you give me any specific examples of problems

24· ·that you've witnessed and any assistance that you've

25· ·given?

Page 27·1· · · · A.· ·Well, I was at my precinct and it was

·2· ·close to closing time, getting close to 7:00 and one

·3· ·of the ladies from my church came up to vote and I

·4· ·said, "What you doing over here?· This is not your

·5· ·precinct."

·6· · · · · · ·And she said, "I've been to two places

·7· ·already.· This is my third place, and they have sent

·8· ·me here."

·9· · · · · · ·And I said, "What?"

10· · · · · · ·She said, "No, they said this is where I

11· ·come."

12· · · · · · ·I said, "When you get in there, you ask

13· ·for a provisional ballot."· I said, "Because, you

14· ·know, the pole's going to be closing in a little

15· ·while, you can't -- don't let them send you nowhere

16· ·else."

17· · · · Q.· ·And when did that incident occur?

18· · · · A.· ·That occurred, it wasn't this last

19· ·election, so to had to be prior to this last

20· ·election.

21· · · · Q.· ·So before 2014?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if that lady was permitted

24· ·to vote with the provisional ballot?

25· · · · A.· ·She did vote, because I asked her when she

Page 28·1· ·came out and she said she was allowed to vote.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you think of any other people who

·3· ·you've assisted with voting problems in the time

·4· ·that you've been doing that?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I've had an incident in Wendell, at

·6· ·the Wendell precinct, that person came up, went in

·7· ·to vote and they said they wouldn't allow her to

·8· ·vote and I went with her inside.· She was allowed to

·9· ·vote.

10· · · · Q.· ·And when did that incident occur?

11· · · · A.· ·I don't remember.

12· · · · Q.· ·Do you think it was before 2014?

13· · · · A.· ·It was before 2014.

14· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else who you can recall assisting?

15· · · · A.· ·Well, there's been others, I can't recall.

16· · · · Q.· ·Sounds like you've helped a lot of people

17· ·over the years.

18· · · · A.· ·I think I have.· I like to think I've been

19· ·able to help.

20· · · · Q.· ·I want to look at the response to

21· ·Interrogatory Number 7.· In this Interrogatory, you

22· ·were asked whether you had ever served as a pole

23· ·observer on any election day or during early voting,

24· ·which is referred to as one stop absentee voting.

25· ·And you said that you have served as a pole observer

Page 29·1· ·in prior general elections and was assigned to

·2· ·precincts in Hopkins, North Carolina and Wendell,

·3· ·North Carolina, do you see that?

·4· · · · A.· ·(witness nods head.)

·5· · · · Q.· ·Is that an accurate statement?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember what elections that

·8· ·you served as a pole observer in?

·9· · · · A.· ·Uh-uh, no.

10· · · · Q.· ·Was it before 2014?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, I want to direct your attention

13· ·to Interrogatory Number 11.· And Interrogatory

14· ·Number 11 states that you have a North Carolina

15· ·driver's license.

16· · · · A.· ·I do.

17· · · · Q.· ·And is the name on your driver's license

18· ·correct?

19· · · · A.· ·My name on my driver's license it has Mary

20· ·W. Perry and I sign my name Mary E. Perry.

21· · · · Q.· ·And do you know why there is a difference

22· ·between the way your name is listed on your license

23· ·and the way you sign your name?

24· · · · A.· ·I don't know, I don't know if it's when I

25· ·went to register that I gave -- they asked me to

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 15

Page 30·1· ·give my maiden name.· That's what I assume it was

·2· ·because I've had it a long time.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And when did you first notice that issue

·4· ·with your name, the middle initial?

·5· · · · A.· ·When I went to register and they asked my

·6· ·name and I said Mary E. Perry and they couldn't find

·7· ·it.

·8· · · · Q.· ·You said when you went to register,

·9· ·register where?

10· · · · A.· ·Not register, I'm sorry, when I went to

11· ·vote.· When I went to vote, I don't know if that was

12· ·the first time I noticed it.· I'm sure I saw it when

13· ·I got my license.

14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How long have you had that license?

15· · · · A.· ·Since I was 18.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have you renewed it lately?

17· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I renewed it -- it expires in 19 --

18· ·I mean 2017, so that's how long I've had it.

19· · · · Q.· ·And you said this issue came to your

20· ·attention when you went to vote; is that right?

21· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't remember when it came up, you

22· ·know, I'm sure I saw it before then but I do

23· ·remember when I went to vote and they asked me my

24· ·name and I said Mary E. Perry and they said they

25· ·can't find it.· Then I said, "Oh, look for Mary W.

Page 31·1· ·Perry."

·2· · · · Q.· ·And they found your name?

·3· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)

·4· · · · Q.· ·And what time was that that you went to

·5· ·vote that that came up?

·6· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't remember that.

·7· · · · Q.· ·I mean was it this past election --

·8· · · · A.· ·Oh, no.

·9· · · · Q.· ·-- in 2014?

10· · · · A.· ·No, no, no.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So sometime before 2014?

12· · · · A.· ·It's been quite a while ago.

13· · · · Q.· ·And have you had any trouble voting since

14· ·because of that issue?

15· · · · A.· ·No.

16· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any concern about using

17· ·that driver's license as a photo ID to vote in the

18· ·2016 elections?

19· · · · A.· ·No, I don't have any concern using it

20· ·because I vote at the same precinct, everybody knows

21· ·me.· That's a picture form of ID.· A lot of people

22· ·don't have that.

23· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to

24· ·Interrogatory Number 20 and the response there.· And

25· ·you were asked to identify individuals who might

Page 32·1· ·have knowledge of the allegations that were made in

·2· ·the Complaint of this lawsuit, and you've listed

·3· ·some specific individuals there, and I just want to

·4· ·ask you about those.

·5· · · · · · ·You've listed, for example, the Reverend

·6· ·Asa Bell, of Pleasant Grove Baptist Church.· What

·7· ·information do you think Mr. Bell might have if any

·8· ·about the -- this lawsuit?

·9· · · · A.· ·I think he's very knowledgeable.

10· · · · Q.· ·Anything specifically?

11· · · · A.· ·I think he specifically knows everything

12· ·about it.

13· · · · Q.· ·But nothing in particular?

14· · · · A.· ·Well, he knows about asking for ID.

15· · · · Q.· ·What do you think he might know about

16· ·that?

17· · · · A.· ·I don't understand what you mean.· Would

18· ·you explain that to me?

19· · · · Q.· ·Sure, just -- I'm trying to understand

20· ·what you think Mr. Bell might have knowledge of

21· ·that's related to this lawsuit.· For example, does

22· ·he not have a valid ID that would work for 2016

23· ·or --

24· · · · A.· ·I think he would have a valid ID that

25· ·would work for 2016 and I think he's very -- I know

Page 33·1· ·he's very knowledgeable of this.· He reads.· He

·2· ·keeps up with the news, so he knows what's going on.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you've also listed Mr. Charles

·4· ·Upchurch who was the president of Wendell branch of

·5· ·the NAACP.

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And did he succeed you in that position?

·8· · · · A.· ·No, he did not.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, how do you know Mr. Upchurch?

10· · · · A.· ·He is the president of that branch now,

11· ·but he did not succeed me.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And -- and what information

13· ·specifically do you think Mr. Upchurch might have

14· ·about this lawsuit?

15· · · · A.· ·He would have all the information because

16· ·he received -- he gets the information, what's

17· ·happening.

18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how about Sonia Barnes who's

19· ·president of the North Carolina Black Women and

20· ·Empowerment Network.· What information do you think

21· ·she might have about this lawsuit?

22· · · · A.· ·She would have all the information.

23· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, I want to refer you to one more

24· ·Interrogatory here and that's Interrogatory 22,

25· ·that's the last one, it's on a page by itself.· And

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 15

Page 34·1· ·here you are asked to identify any person other than

·2· ·your attorneys who you have discussed any

·3· ·allegations in the Complaint with, and you've listed

·4· ·two people, Reverend Dr. William Barber and Rosanell

·5· ·Eaton.

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you discuss with Reverend Barber

·8· ·related to this lawsuit?

·9· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I would just like to pause. I

10· · · · know that counsel did qualify that not to

11· · · · discuss things that you discussed with your

12· · · · attorneys but if you had conversations with Mr.

13· · · · Barber or Ms. Eaton where attorneys were

14· · · · present, I'd ask you to not disclose those two,

15· · · · but if you just had, you know, one-on-one

16· · · · conversations with Mr. Barber, those are okay

17· · · · to discuss.

18· · · · A.· ·No, we haven't had one-on-one

19· ·conversations.

20· · · · Q.· ·So any time you spoke with Mr. Barber

21· ·about the lawsuit, an attorney was present?

22· · · · A.· ·There's been others were present.

23· · · · Q.· ·How about with respect to Ms. Eaton, have

24· ·you had any conversations with Ms. Eaton about the

25· ·lawsuit when attorneys were not present?

Page 35·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I don't think I have any

·3· · · · more questions for Ms. Perry at this time.

·4· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I don't know that I'm going to

·5· · · · have too long, but I would like to just take a

·6· · · · break so Ms. Perry could have a minute, so

·7· · · · could we go off the record?

·8· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure.

·9· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· We're off the record, the time

10· · · · is 1:40.

11· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

12· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· We are now back on the record,

13· · · · the time is 1:48.

14· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS

15· · · · · · · BY MR. GLICK:

16· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Perry.· My name is

17· ·Michael Glick.· I'm with the law firm of Kirkland

18· ·and Ellis.

19· · · · · · ·Can you just state your name again for the

20· ·record?

21· · · · A.· ·Mary E. Perry.

22· · · · Q.· ·Where were you born, Ms. Perry?

23· · · · A.· ·I was born in Rocky Mount, North Carolina.

24· · · · Q.· ·And have you lived in North Carolina your

25· ·whole life?

Page 36·1· · · · A.· ·I've been in Rocky Mount -- I mean in --

·2· ·I've been in North Carolina my whole life, yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And how old are you?

·4· · · · A.· ·I'm 85.

·5· · · · Q.· ·For the record, Ms. Perry, are you African

·6· ·American?

·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Earlier today you discussed an incident, I

·9· ·believe at a movie theater?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·What year was that?

12· · · · A.· ·1946.

13· · · · Q.· ·And was the movie theater at that time

14· ·integrated or segregated?

15· · · · A.· ·It was segregated.· It was -- well, we

16· ·went to the same movie but like this was a movie

17· ·box.· You come through the line, the whites went on

18· ·this line and went upstairs -- no, I'm sorry, they

19· ·went --

20· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, can I just stop you for one

21· ·second?· Just because the court reporter is writing

22· ·down what you're saying.

23· · · · A.· ·Oh, I'm sorry.

24· · · · Q.· ·And I know there is a video but they're

25· ·not going to be able to see your hand moving.

Page 37·1· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So if you can just describe it with words,

·3· ·that would be great.

·4· · · · A.· ·Well, when you go to the movie, you get in

·5· ·one line but when you get up to the movie box, the

·6· ·line separates, one goes straight into the movie and

·7· ·the other goes upstairs.· And the blacks went

·8· ·upstairs and the whites went straight.· And we were

·9· ·all in the same line waiting to go into the movie.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Also earlier today you testified

11· ·that you got involved with Voter Outreach and

12· ·political education efforts because you felt there

13· ·was a need to get involved.

14· · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?

16· · · · A.· ·Because of the things that was happening

17· ·in the community, and the things that was happening

18· ·to the people, things that happened to my mentor,

19· ·she taught -- she taught me that, you know, that I

20· ·needed to get involved and encouraged people to get

21· ·involved and I really became involved because of

22· ·that, because I had to walk three miles to school

23· ·and walk the dirt roads.· The school bus would come

24· ·down.· The kids in the bus would spit at you, and

25· ·the dust would dust you all up, and so I said all

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 10 of 15

Page 38·1· ·these things happened so that I know that it was

·2· ·time to get involved and do whatever you could.

·3· · · · Q.· ·You said the kids on the bus.· What race

·4· ·were the kids on the bus?

·5· · · · A.· ·They were white.· The blacks had to walk.

·6· ·The bus came right by your house, you couldn't ride

·7· ·the bus.

·8· · · · Q.· ·You said -- you made reference to the

·9· ·things happening in the community.· What types of

10· ·things were you talking about?

11· · · · A.· ·Police brutality, blacks getting arrested

12· ·and whites not, and couldn't get jobs, blacks

13· ·couldn't get jobs, all those things.· Going to

14· ·school, your children's textbooks was all raggedy,

15· ·they had hand me down textbooks.

16· · · · Q.· ·Did you attend integrated schools or

17· ·segregated schools growing up?

18· · · · A.· ·I attended segregated schools.

19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you testified earlier today

20· ·that you voted personally in North Carolina

21· ·elections; is that right?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·Why do you vote in person as opposed

24· ·through the mail-in process?

25· · · · A.· ·I vote in person because too many people

Page 39·1· ·died for the right to vote and we couldn't vote and

·2· ·I want to go and cast my vote personally and make

·3· ·sure that I cast it and be counted.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever missed voting --

·5· · · · A.· ·No.

·6· · · · Q.· ·-- in person?

·7· · · · · · ·Now, you also testified earlier that you

·8· ·have a photo identification, a license to vote in

·9· ·the election?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·But you testified when Mr. McKnight asked

12· ·you, you said there are a lot people who don't have

13· ·that.

14· · · · A.· ·There's a lot of people don't have it, a

15· ·lot of people don't drive.

16· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of registered voters in

17· ·North Carolina who do not possess a photo

18· ·identification that could be used to vote in the

19· ·election?

20· · · · A.· ·I'm aware of people that do not have

21· ·driver's license.· And that's something -- I know a

22· ·few who do not have any type of ID, they would have

23· ·to try to get it.

24· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you understand that the state

25· ·is making available special no fee voter

Page 40·1· ·identification cards?· Have you heard anything about

·2· ·that?

·3· · · · A.· ·I've heard about that.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe those cards will help those

·5· ·individuals who don't possess a driver's license?

·6· · · · A.· ·How is it going to be no fee?· I live in

·7· ·the country, if I didn't have a license or anything,

·8· ·and I got to go come to Motor Vehicle in Raleigh or

·9· ·wherever the Motor Vehicle, how am I going to get

10· ·there?· Nobody is not going to come and take me for

11· ·nothing.· I'm going to have to pay to get there.

12· ·It's still going to cost you.

13· · · · Q.· ·I wanted to talk also about your

14· ·experience with early voting.· You testified earlier

15· ·that you voted early in North Carolina elections?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · Q.· ·How many times would you say you've done

18· ·that?

19· · · · A.· ·How many times have I --

20· · · · Q.· ·How many times have you used the early

21· ·voting process?

22· · · · A.· ·I have used it -- I say it's been probably

23· ·about two times that I have not used it, other times

24· ·I've used it.

25· · · · Q.· ·So all the elections but maybe two since

Page 41·1· ·it was initiated in 2000 here in North Carolina?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Why do you vote early?

·4· · · · A.· ·I vote early because I don't want to stand

·5· ·in those long lines.· I don't know what's going to

·6· ·happen on election day, I might not can get to the

·7· ·poles, it might be raining or whatever.· So I want

·8· ·and go and vote early, make sure that I have voted.

·9· ·And then after I vote, I maybe help other people to

10· ·the poles on election day.

11· · · · Q.· ·I want to talk about both of those things.

12· ·The first thing you said is you don't want to wait

13· ·in those lines.· Are you referring to the long lines

14· ·on the -- on the election day?

15· · · · A.· ·Yes, if there's a long line, I just

16· ·really -- I just want to vote early, make sure that

17· ·I have cast my vote.

18· · · · Q.· ·Why don't you want to wait in a long line?

19· · · · A.· ·Well, I can't wait in a long line now.

20· · · · Q.· ·Why not?

21· · · · A.· ·Because I have legs problems, I'm old and

22· ·I can't stand that long.· If I have to go to the

23· ·elections to vote now and have to get -- stand in

24· ·that long line, I can't do it.· And I have seen some

25· ·people come up and leave and didn't vote.· I have

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 11 of 15

Page 42·1· ·seen that personally happen.

·2· · · · Q.· ·You talked a little bit earlier about your

·3· ·experience voting early in the 2014 midterm

·4· ·election.· How did your experience voting in the

·5· ·2014 midterm election compare to the 2010 midterm

·6· ·election?

·7· · · · A.· ·2010, the line wasn't as long.· The line

·8· ·was not as long.· I guess it's because they had more

·9· ·days to get to the poles.

10· · · · Q.· ·Now, Ms. Perry, you're still aware that

11· ·the state, even after the enactment of HB-589 still

12· ·allows for ten days of early voting.· Are you aware

13· ·of that?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.

15· · · · Q.· ·As someone who has voted early in multiple

16· ·elections, is that enough time?

17· · · · A.· ·No.

18· · · · Q.· ·Why not?

19· · · · A.· ·Because if people -- we're hoping to get

20· ·more people, people are registering more and you're

21· ·out there getting people to register and you tell

22· ·them that they can go vote and they need that time

23· ·frame.

24· · · · Q.· ·Why is that?

25· · · · A.· ·Why -- so they'll be sure to be able to

Page 43·1· ·cast their vote.

·2· · · · Q.· ·A good segue, you talked about voter

·3· ·registration and I want to talk a little bit about

·4· ·that.· Have you been involved in registering voters

·5· ·in North Carolina?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·How so?

·8· · · · A.· ·Well, I've been registering -- you mean,

·9· ·how do I vote?· How do I carry them to vote or --

10· · · · Q.· ·How -- how -- just focus on the

11· ·registration component right now.· Can you describe

12· ·your -- the activities that you've been involved in

13· ·over the many years registering people to vote?

14· · · · A.· ·Well, I have -- we have gone to shopping

15· ·centers, grocery stores, we have registered people

16· ·at the church.

17· · · · Q.· ·And how many voters would you estimate

18· ·that you've helped register to vote?

19· · · · A.· ·I've registered over 10,000 votes.

20· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry, over 10,000?

21· · · · A.· ·Over 10,000.

22· · · · Q.· ·Now, do you only help African American

23· ·citizens to register to vote?

24· · · · A.· ·No, when you set up to vote, set up the

25· ·register, you put your table out, you have your

Page 44·1· ·sign, register to vote here, and that anybody that

·2· ·come up there and wants to register can register.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Now, were you aware that before the

·4· ·enactment of HB-589, people were able to register to

·5· ·vote on the same day that they voted early?

·6· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Objection, calls for a

·7· · · · legal conclusion.

·8· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of anyone who was affected by

11· ·the change in that law?

12· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.

13· · · · Q.· ·How were they affected?

14· · · · A.· ·Repeat your question.

15· · · · Q.· ·How were those people affected?

16· · · · A.· ·Well, they want -- if they go for the same

17· ·day, with this new law, they won't be able to

18· ·register.

19· · · · Q.· ·And do you know of individuals who were

20· ·affected by that in the 2014 election?

21· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.

22· · · · Q.· ·Did those individuals ultimately vote in

23· ·the 2014 election?

24· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

25· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?

Page 45·1· · · · A.· ·They didn't vote.

·2· · · · Q.· ·They did not?

·3· · · · A.· ·No, they did not vote at all.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you also talked a little about

·5· ·driving people to the poles.· Can you talk about

·6· ·your experience driving voters to the poles?

·7· · · · A.· ·Well, the way that people will call me for

·8· ·a ride, they -- we put out -- sometimes it's on the

·9· ·radio, call such and such a number or what have you,

10· ·and even in churches they have that, you know, if

11· ·you need a ride to the pole, call this number, and

12· ·they call me and I get them and take them to the

13· ·pole.

14· · · · Q.· ·Can I just ask you to keep your voice up,

15· ·I don't have too many more questions.

16· · · · A.· ·Okay.

17· · · · Q.· ·You drive people to the poles in your own

18· ·vehicle?

19· · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· ·For how many elections have you driven

21· ·voters to the poles?

22· · · · A.· ·I can't remember that, it's been --

23· · · · Q.· ·More than five?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·More than ten?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 12 of 15

Page 46·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And --

·3· · · · A.· ·Twenty-five or thirty.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And on average, on the average election

·5· ·day or early voting period, how many voters would

·6· ·you say that you drove to the poles in each

·7· ·election?

·8· · · · A.· ·On the average, on the -- during the day?

·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

10· · · · A.· ·On average, now this is not everyday but

11· ·on average, I say from eight to ten.

12· · · · Q.· ·Now, the same question that I asked about

13· ·voter registration and your involvement in that.· Do

14· ·you only drive African American voters to the poles?

15· · · · A.· ·Anybody that needs a ride to the poles,

16· ·call that number.· It doesn't say blacks call it or

17· ·whites call it.· It says if you need a ride to the

18· ·poles, call this number, or either people know that

19· ·I -- they're familiar that I do this and they would

20· ·call or either they see me and say, "Girl, I'm going

21· ·to need a ride to the poles, pick me up at so and so

22· ·time."

23· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, when you drive a voter to the

24· ·poles, do you bring them to just any precinct to

25· ·vote?

Page 47·1· · · · A.· ·I carry them to their precinct.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever purposefully --

·3· · · · A.· ·Except on early voting, early voting I

·4· ·take them to the site.

·5· · · · Q.· ·You take them to the early voting site?

·6· · · · A.· ·Early voting site, yeah.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever purposefully brought a voter

·8· ·to the wrong precinct?

·9· · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever heard of a case where a bus

11· ·or van purposefully took voters to the wrong

12· ·precinct?

13· · · · A.· ·No.

14· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, how long have you been involved

15· ·with North Carolina elections?

16· · · · A.· ·Longer than I could remember.

17· · · · Q.· ·Have you, in all of your years that you

18· ·have been involved, have you ever experienced voter

19· ·fraud or election fraud in a North Carolina

20· ·election?

21· · · · A.· ·I have not.

22· · · · Q.· ·Given your experience, do you believe

23· ·changes in the voting laws were necessary to protect

24· ·against voter fraud?

25· · · · A.· ·No.

Page 48·1· · · · Q.· ·And again, given your experience, how do

·2· ·you believe the changes in the election laws have

·3· ·affected voter confidence?

·4· · · · A.· ·A lot of people now are afraid, they're

·5· ·intimidated by this law.· They state, you know, I

·6· ·don't know where to go get it.· What am I going to

·7· ·have to have?· I don't have that.· I don't have a

·8· ·picture ID.· What -- how many I going to get all

·9· ·this stuff?· I can't afford to do that.

10· · · · Q.· ·Any other reason that you've heard of that

11· ·people are intimidated or have lost confidence?

12· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure right now.

13· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Pass the witness.· No further

14· · · · questions.

15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Just a couple of questions,

16· · · · I think.

17· · · ·FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

18· · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you mentioned that you have

20· ·some physical limitations that make it difficult for

21· ·to stand in long lines; is that right?

22· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)

23· · · · Q.· ·And you said that you have stood in long

24· ·lines in 2012 and you mentioned that you had to wait

25· ·in a line in 2014; is that right?

Page 49·1· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes?

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And --

·5· · · · A.· ·And that they're not as long, not, I said

·6· ·ten -- about ten minutes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·8· · · · A.· ·I guess you don't call that so long.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have you ever asked anybody at

10· ·any Board of Elections site for assistance because

11· ·you were unable to stand in the line?

12· · · · A.· ·No, I haven't.

13· · · · Q.· ·Did you feel like you needed that

14· ·assistance or did you not want to ask?

15· · · · A.· ·I didn't stand that long to need

16· ·assistance but right now, and I'm getting worse and

17· ·worse every year.· I have arthritis and every year

18· ·it gets worse and worse and the older I get, now I

19· ·can't do now what I did last year, and Lord willing,

20· ·I'll be here a few more years and I won't be able to

21· ·do then what I can do now.· So therefore, you know,

22· ·I will eventually -- I got a cane in the car now.

23· · · · Q.· ·Would you feel comfortable asking for

24· ·assistance if you felt like you needed it?

25· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I would ask for and I guess I would

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 15

Page 50·1· ·ask for it if I needed it but, you know something,

·2· ·if it's raining out there, do you want to sit out

·3· ·there in that rain?

·4· · · · Q.· ·I couldn't imagine anybody would.

·5· · · · · · ·I don't think I have any further questions

·6· ·for Ms. Perry.

·7· · · · · · ·Thank you for your time, ma'am.

·8· · · · A.· ·Thank you.

·9· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Off the record.

10· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· This concludes the deposition.

11· · · · The time is 2:04.

12· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT

13· · · · 2:04 P.M.)

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Page 51·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·E R R A T A

·2· ·WITNESS NAME:· · · ·Mary E. Perry· · · · · · March 12, 2015

·3· ·PAGE· · · · ·LINE· · · · · CHANGE· · · · · · · · · · ·REASON

·4· ·____________________________________________________________

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14· · · ·I, Mary E. Perry, have read the foregoing deposition and

15· ·hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct,

16· ·except as noted above.

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Mary E. Perry

19

20

21· ·Sworn to and subscribed before me

22· ·________________________________,Notary Public.

23· ·This________day of_____________________, 2015.

24· ·My Commission Expires:__________________________

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 14 of 15

Page 54·1· · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E

·2· · · · ·I, Lynn A. Ruggiro, Shorthand Reporter and Notary

·3· ·Public, do hereby certify that the above-named witness was

·4· ·duly sworn by my prior to the taking of the foregoing

·5· ·deposition; and that said deposition was taken and

·6· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

·7· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

·8· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness.

·9· · · · I do further certify that the persons were present as

10· ·stated in the caption.

11· · · · I do further certify that I am not of counsel for or in

12· ·the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor am

13· ·I interested in the results of this action.

14· · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name

15· ·this 18th day of March, 2015.

16

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 15 of 15

TAWANDA PITT June 1, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE )

OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

v. ) Civil Action No.

) 1:13-CV-658

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor )

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

_________________________________

_

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

) 1:13-CV-660

v. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants. )

_________________________________

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, ) 1:13-CV-861

)

v. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants )

DEPOSITION OF

TAWANDA PITT

2

1

2

3

4

DEPOSITION OF TAWANDA PITT

5 ________________________________________________

6 3:30 P.M.

7 MONDAY, JUNE 1, 2015

________________________________________________

8

9 THOMAS & FARRIS, P.A.

10 104 NASH STREET, N.E.

11 WILSON, NORTH CAROLINA

12

13

14

15 By: Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

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3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 For the Plaintiff League of Women Voters:3 Southern Coalition for Social Justice

BY: Allison J. Riggs, Esquire4 1415 Highway 54, Suite 101

Durham, North Carolina 277075 (919) 323-3380

allison@southerncoalition.org6

For the Defendant North Carolina Board of Elections:7

Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C.8 BY: Michael D. McKnight, Esquire

4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 11009 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609

(919) 787-970010 michael.mcknight@ogletreedeakins.com11

12 Videographer: Brent Troublefield13 --oOo--14

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1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION

2

WITNESS: PAGE

3

4 TAWANDA PITT

5 Examination by Ms. Riggs 5

6 Examination by Mr. McKnight 12

7

8 --oOo--

9

10 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

11

12

13 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

14 1 NC Voter Information 26

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--oOo--

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-49 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 8

TAWANDA PITT June 1, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at

3 3:57 p.m. Today's date is June 1st, 2015. This

4 is the videotaped deposition of Tawanda Pitt,

5 taken in the matter of the NAACP versus Patrick

6 Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity as the

7 Governor of North Carolina. Case

8 number 1:13-CV-658 and all related matters.

9 Would counsel now please introduce

10 themselves.

11 MS. RIGGS: My name is Allison Riggs. I

12 represent the League of Women Voters, plaintiffs.

13 MR. McKNIGHT: And good afternoon,

14 Ms. Pitt. My name is Michael McKnight, and I

15 represent the State Board of Elections,

16 defendants.

17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court

18 reporter please swear in the witness.

19 TAWANDA PITT,

20 having been first sworn by the court reporter and

21 Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

22 nothing but the truth, testified as follows:

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY MS. RIGGS:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Pitt.

6

1 A. Hello.

2 Q. Can you state your full name for the record,

3 please?

4 A. Tawanda Denise Pitt.

5 Q. Okay. And when were you born, Ms. Pitt?

6 A. July 10th, 1972.

7 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition taken

8 before?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. So I'll just go over, real quick, the --

11 the guidelines of the deposition. The court

12 reporter is typing up what we say. And so it's

13 very important that we not talk over each other,

14 because she can't be writing what we both say at

15 the same time. So I'll wait until you're done

16 answering before I ask my question; and if you

17 wait until I'm done asking the question before

18 answering, it will make her job much easier.

19 And then the other major thing is:

20 She's typing, and so she needs our answers to be

21 verbal. So if it's a yes-or-no answer, please

22 say "yes" or "no," not nod your head or shake

23 your head, because she can't catch that. Is that

24 okay?

25 A. Okay.

7

1 Q. If you need a break, just let me know. We can

2 take a break. I don't think we'll be here long

3 enough for that --

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. -- to be necessary. But in case you do need a

6 rest room break or a drink break, just let me

7 know. We'll finish the question that we're on

8 and move on.

9 Counsel -- we might make objections to

10 the -- and all that means is we don't like how

11 the question is being asked. But you go -- you

12 can go ahead and answer it anyway. It's just a

13 formality. So you don't need --

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. -- to worry about that.

16 Is there any reason you can't answer

17 questions today truthfully or honestly?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. How are you employed, Ms. Pitt?

20 A. I'm a CNA.

21 Q. Okay. And how long have you been doing that

22 work?

23 A. I've been doing CNA work since 2010.

24 Q. And just for the record, what does "CNA" stand

25 for?

8

1 A. Certified nursing assistant.

2 Q. Okay. What's your address, Ms. Pitt?

3 A. 3722 Starship Lane, Apartment B, Wilson, North

4 Carolina 27896.

5 Q. How long have you lived in Wilson?

6 A. I've been in Wilson approximately 19 years.

7 Q. And where did you live before that?

8 A. I lived on Tarboro Street.

9 Q. Also in Wilson?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Were you born in North Carolina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Have you lived here your whole life?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where -- which town were you born in?

16 A. In Tarboro, North Carolina.

17 Q. Oh, in Tarboro. Okay.

18 What -- do you have family here in North

19 Carolina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Children?

22 A. Children. My mom, my dad, my aunts, uncles.

23 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you first registered

24 to vote?

25 A. The first time I ever registered?

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9

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Yes, I do. I remember going to the -- to the

3 DMV, getting my license, and I registered.

4 Q. Okay. So was that maybe when you were 16 or 18?

5 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Okay. Just remember to say "yes."

7 A. Yes. Sorry.

8 Q. That's okay.

9 Do you consider yourself a regular

10 voter?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you vote in presidential elections?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you vote in nonpresidential elections?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you want to vote in 2014?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you try to vote in 2014?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened

21 when you tried to vote in 2014?

22 A. My son and I went to the voter -- voter place,

23 and it was a line down the side of the -- of the

24 curve. And my son said, "Mom, are you going to

25 stay in this line and vote?"

10

1 I said, "Yes, we need to vote. It's

2 very important to vote."

3 So I walked past a couple of people,

4 just to see what was going on. And as I got up

5 to the front of the line, it was more people

6 inside the building.

7 And I asked the lady, I said, "What in

8 the world is going on?"

9 And she said, "Well, we only have two

10 computers. One more is on the way. Just leave

11 and come back later."

12 So my son and I left. It was about --

13 it was about 3:30, quarter to 4:00. We left and

14 I returned back to the same spot again about

15 6 o'clock, and the line was worse.

16 Q. Do you remember -- the first time that you went,

17 around 3:30 or 4:00, do you remember how long you

18 waited that time?

19 A. Forty-five minutes to an hour.

20 Q. Okay. And then when you came back later, what

21 happened? So the line was longer, then what

22 happened?

23 A. The line was longer. I was frustrated. By then,

24 I stood there about 35, 40 minutes. The other

25 computer had never arrived that they were waiting

11

1 on to come, the laptop.

2 Q. Did you end up voting?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Why not?

5 A. I was frustrated.

6 Q. Did that second time that you were there, did you

7 wait that time, too?

8 A. Uh-huh. Waited about 30, 35 minutes.

9 Q. Okay. Both times?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Okay. Did your son ever go back to vote?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did -- were you aware that early voting had been

14 reduced prior to the 2014 election?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have an opinion on -- on how that affected

17 your voting experience?

18 A. I feel like that's why the lines was so long,

19 because of that. I think if they had extended it

20 a little more, it might would have decreased, you

21 know, the line and the wait time. And then the

22 computers, you know, they didn't have enough

23 computers to supply all those people.

24 Q. Okay. How did that whole process make you feel?

25 A. I was disappointed --

12

1 Q. Why?

2 A. -- and frustrated.

3 Because I feel like my vote didn't get

4 counted. And my vote should matter. And it

5 could have made a difference.

6 MS. RIGGS: Ms. Pitt, those are all the

7 questions that I have for you. Now Mr. McKnight

8 will ask you a few questions.

9 EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. McKNIGHT:

11 Q. All right. Good afternoon again, Ms. Pitt.

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. And I just want to find out a little bit more

14 about your experience on election day and --

15 and -- and your experience as a voter in general,

16 if I could.

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. Did you ever attempt to go and vote during early

19 voting before the November of 2014 election?

20 A. Yes, I have did it before.

21 Early register, that's what you mean?

22 Q. Well --

23 A. Early vote. I went to the poll downtown. I did

24 go.

25 Q. Okay. So -- well, let me -- let me be clear

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13

1 about what we're talking about, then. So -- so

2 before election day, the experience that you just

3 described, that occurred on election day --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- in November of 2014, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so before election day, did you attempt to go

8 vote during early voting?

9 A. No. I did not this time. No. Because my work

10 schedule didn't allow me to do it.

11 Q. And you said your work schedule didn't allow you

12 to go vote during early voting.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. I got off early to go vote that day, I did --

16 that I did go on the 14th. I got off early to go

17 vote.

18 Q. What you're talking about is on election day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And -- and you said the -- the 14th. Does

21 November 4th sound more accurate than the 14th?

22 A. I don't -- look, I don't know what the date was.

23 But I'm telling you, I did get off early that

24 particular day because my clients said I could

25 because she had went and voted herself.

14

1 Q. Okay. I see. Well, I wouldn't know the day

2 either if I hadn't taken all these depositions.

3 So I -- that's the only way I remember what day

4 it is.

5 So -- okay. Fair enough. So before the

6 November of 2014 election, though, you -- you did

7 not try to go vote during early voting?

8 A. Uh-uh. No.

9 Q. And do you know what the schedule for early

10 voting was in Wilson County in 2014?

11 A. I cannot recall. I know that I do recall the

12 hours was from 8 o'clock in the morning till 7:00

13 at one -- at one place downtown. And I only knew

14 that because I had saw the little signs up, the

15 little posters and stuff they put up. But not to

16 be specific about it, no.

17 Q. And do you recall how many days of early voting

18 were available in -- in Wilson County in 2014?

19 A. I think it was four.

20 Q. Just -- you think it was just four?

21 A. I think it was just four days.

22 Q. Is that --

23 A. Thursday, Friday -- I think Thursday, Friday,

24 Saturday, Sunday. Might no -- it might have been

25 four. Because it wasn't like -- it normally was

15

1 like a week before in the past. A week or two.

2 But this time it was like -- it was shorter.

3 Q. Do you think that's true of all locations or just

4 one location?

5 A. I think it was true for all locations. I -- I

6 don't know. I'm just saying from what I think,

7 now. It could have been all locations.

8 Q. And so at any point did -- did you try to look up

9 the schedule for early voting to determine

10 whether you -- you might be able to go and -- and

11 vote early?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. And -- and why not?

14 A. Because my schedule. I was working seven days a

15 week. I knew that I couldn't fit it into my

16 schedule. My mom went on a Saturday, you know,

17 so I -- I couldn't fit it into my schedule.

18 Q. All right. And I think you said on election day

19 you were able to take off early to go vote.

20 A. Yeah. I did. And that was only because she --

21 my client knew it was election day and she wanted

22 me to vote -- make sure I voted. That's the only

23 reason why I got off early that day.

24 Q. And you said your client. Right. Is that -- do

25 you -- as a certified nursing assistant, do -- do

16

1 you sit with a patient or something like that?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. All right. And that's individually? Do

4 you sit in their home, is that what you do?

5 A. Yep. Sometimes you might have one or more

6 patient a day, you know. During that time, I

7 think I was having like two to three patients,

8 because I was doing fill-ins for the office that

9 I work for.

10 Q. But you didn't ask whether you could get off

11 early to go vote early or not?

12 A. Not until -- till voting day. That my client

13 that I had, she said, "Baby, you need to get off

14 work early and go vote." She said, "I voted this

15 morning. You need to make sure you go today.

16 It's very important that you vote." And she let

17 me get off early.

18 Q. And -- and so you said that you first arrived at

19 your voting site on election day around 3 or 4

20 o'clock; is that right?

21 A. No. It was about 3:30, because school was

22 letting out. School was out.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Because I -- when I first walked up to the line,

25 I thought that it was just a early release from

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17

1 the kids, the school. But when I got up to the

2 line, it was actual people standing in line to

3 vote, because it's at -- it's held at a school.

4 Q. And -- and had you gone to that precinct at any

5 time before 3:30 that day?

6 A. No. Because I didn't get off until that time.

7 Q. So do you have any idea what the lines were like

8 before you arrived there around 3:30?

9 A. According to the lady that was working inside,

10 she said the lines had been like that all day

11 long.

12 Q. But that's just what she told you?

13 A. Yeah. Yeah. She was -- I mean, she was the lady

14 that was -- that was waiting for the other

15 computer to come back that I talked to.

16 Q. Do you think that she worked for the elections

17 board or -- or -- or was she just someone else?

18 I mean, do you know --

19 A. I think she worked for the election board,

20 because she knew about the computer was on its

21 way and all that.

22 Q. And then you said the second time you -- you came

23 back, that was around 6 o'clock; is that right?

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. All right. And you said you waited for about

18

1 30-some minutes there?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. And how do you know that the other computer had

4 not arrived?

5 A. Because I asked the question again. I bypassed

6 people. Because I was like, this is ridiculous

7 that I got to stand in this line this long.

8 And the lady said, "We're waiting for

9 another computer and the computer hasn't gotten

10 here."

11 And then George called me, and he

12 confirmed what the lady had said about the

13 computer was on the way.

14 Q. You said George called.

15 A. Uh-huh. I called the 1-800 number about the

16 voting problem, and I talked to -- he was from

17 the Southern Coalition. George.

18 Q. George Eppsteiner, does that sound right?

19 A. Yep. That's him.

20 Q. Okay. So on election day, you called an 800

21 number --

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. -- and you were connected with somebody with the

24 Southern Coalition for Social Justice?

25 A. Uh-huh.

19

1 Q. And -- and you think that person was George

2 Eppsteiner?

3 A. It was him.

4 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and tell me about what you

5 recall saying to Mr. Eppsteiner.

6 A. I told him that I had been to vote. And he asked

7 me where was I voting. I told him New Hope

8 School, in the New Hope district. And he asked

9 me what was the problem.

10 I said, I went to vote and the line is

11 horrible. And my son and I stood in line for

12 like the first time 35, 40 -- 40 minutes, at the

13 most. I said, and they only had two computers.

14 And I said, they normally will have more than

15 that.

16 Because they have a little table set up,

17 and they normally have like four or five

18 computers. They only had two that day.

19 Q. And that was based upon your prior experience; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. And he said, "Well, Ms. Pitt, let me find out

24 what's going on and I'll call you back." He

25 said, "Please return back so you can make sure

20

1 you vote."

2 And I did go back.

3 And when he called my phone, he said,

4 "I'm under -- under the impression there that

5 they have two computers and one more is supposed

6 to be on the way."

7 He said, "Have you gotten back there

8 yet?"

9 I said, "Yes. I'm outside and the line

10 is longer than it was the first time."

11 And he said, "Well, just bear with them.

12 They're -- they're waiting on the other computer

13 to get here. Just, you know, bear with them."

14 And I said, "Well, I'll stay out here

15 for a little longer, but I don't know how long

16 I'm going to stay."

17 And that was the end of the conversation.

18 Q. Okay. And -- and the computer incident, the --

19 the lack of the -- the third computer that you

20 were talking about, did you find out about that

21 only from Mr. Eppsteiner, or did you find --

22 A. No. The lady. The lady -- George confirmed what

23 the lady had said.

24 Q. I see.

25 And do you remember when you next spoke

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21

1 with someone from the Southern Coalition for

2 Social Justice about this matter?

3 A. He called me back later on that night to ask me

4 did I ever get a chance to vote, and I told him

5 no. He asked me did my son vote, and I said no.

6 Q. And what -- what's your son's name, by the way?

7 A. His name is Marquavious Pitt.

8 Q. Could you spell the first name?

9 A. M-A-R-Q-U-A-V-I-O-U-S.

10 Q. All right. What's his date of birth?

11 A. 94.

12 Q. And then after you spoke with Mr. Eppsteiner

13 about that, did you speak with anyone from the

14 Southern Coalition for Social Justice again after

15 that?

16 A. George called. George -- he called me a couple

17 more times. As a matter of fact, he's been real

18 persistent. He's called me. And Alice called.

19 Uh-huh.

20 Q. And what did you speak with him about after --

21 after that?

22 A. Them come and talk to me about a deposition.

23 Q. What did they tell you about that?

24 A. That they wanted to know what happened and what

25 led up to the events and how -- how the voting

22

1 polls and everything was set up when I went

2 there.

3 Q. Okay. And did they ask you to be a witness in

4 this lawsuit at some point?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Well, how -- how did you end up getting to

7 be a witness in the lawsuit?

8 A. Because they wanted my story. I mean, if I have

9 to be a witness, I will be one, you know.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Well, no, I -- I see what

11 you're saying. You're -- you're here testifying

12 now.

13 A. Right.

14 Q. So -- so you are a witness.

15 A. Right.

16 Q. All right. All right.

17 A. -- lawsuit. I'm just wanting to make sure I be

18 able to vote next time.

19 Q. All right. And -- and you said -- so you arrived

20 at the poll the second time about 6 o'clock,

21 right?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. And you said you waited for 35 minutes --

24 A. Thirty. Uh-huh.

25 Q. -- or -- or so?

23

1 A. Uh-huh.

2 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and then you decide to leave

3 at some point.

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. You and your son decide to leave.

6 Now, why did you decide to leave?

7 A. Because it was -- I had been there twice. And

8 the computer hadn't showed up, apparently. I

9 asked the lady. She said it hadn't gotten there

10 yet. So what time was the computer going to get

11 there? She never gave me an answer.

12 Q. And how long was the line, would you say, at the

13 time you left?

14 A. It was about -- it was long. About a quarter of

15 a mile. It was long.

16 Q. Did you say "quarter of a mile"?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. How -- how would you estimate that?

19 A. I say from this -- from the inside of this

20 building, out to -- to the courthouse.

21 Do you know where the courthouse is?

22 Q. Yes. Yes.

23 A. That's how long it was.

24 Q. Okay. All right.

25 A. And that's a long line. And it was not, like,

24

1 just single file. People was standing, like,

2 side by side, just standing in line, waiting.

3 Q. And is there a point in your mind that you think

4 a line would be too long that you wouldn't wait

5 in it to vote?

6 A. I feel like that given the circumstances, due to

7 the early registration voting, I think that they

8 should have been better prepared than what they

9 were.

10 Q. And -- and I guess my question, though, was: Is

11 there -- is there a certain point, though, that

12 you think a line would be too long that you would

13 not stand in it in order to vote?

14 A. That was too long.

15 Q. At -- at what -- at what point would it become

16 too long? Was it at 35 minutes or --

17 A. Thirty-five minutes, because it wasn't getting

18 any shorter. It was still -- it was at a

19 standstill. Because if you think about this, you

20 got over 180 people in line, if not -- not more,

21 and you got two computers, the wait time -- they

22 call you up to the line, they ask you for your

23 name, and they give you all this paperwork. Then

24 you go to the poll, to the little booth, to vote.

25 Q. And -- and on election day, at the time you left

REDACTED

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25

1 around 6:35 or so, do you have any idea how much

2 longer you would have had to wait in order to

3 vote?

4 A. Probably about another 45 minutes.

5 Q. And at the time you left, did you have something

6 else you needed to go do or you were just --

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. -- tired?

9 A. Cook super for my -- my baby and help him with

10 his homework.

11 Q. Well, you didn't have to go back to work or

12 anything like that?

13 A. No. Uh-uh.

14 Q. And during early voting, I -- I know you said

15 that you -- you didn't attempt to early vote

16 before the November 2014 election. Do you have

17 any knowledge about how long the lines were or if

18 there were lines at all during early voting in --

19 in Wilson County before the November 2014

20 election?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And in the past, have you used any methods of

23 voting other than voting on election day or early

24 voting?

25 A. No.

26

1 Q. Have you ever voted using an absentee ballot?

2 A. No. Not that I can recall.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And I -- I was looking at your election record

5 here. And maybe it would be a good idea if I

6 just show it to you. And I want to ask you if

7 you -- if this might refresh your -- your memory

8 about this. I don't know if we have any exhibit

9 stickers or not.

10 (Exhibit Number 1 is marked.)

11 Q. So I'm going to mark this document as -- as Pitt

12 Exhibit 1 and hand it to you. Hand a copy to

13 Ms. Riggs.

14 And Ms. Pitt, is this a document that

15 you've seen before at some point?

16 A. No. Not that I recall.

17 Q. And I wouldn't expect that -- that you would.

18 Some -- some witnesses have reviewed these

19 with -- with counsel before the depositions.

20 But what this is, Ms. Pitt, is if you go

21 to the State Board of Elections website and you

22 type in a voter's name, there's certain public

23 information about the voter --

24 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

25 Q. -- that will -- that will come up. And when I

27

1 typed in your name, this is what came up. And I

2 believe that the address that you gave earlier,

3 on Starship Lane --

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. -- is -- is your name and address under the voter

6 details on this Exhibit 1, is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the polling place that we were discussing

9 that you went to on election day in 2014,

10 November 2014, that's listed as New Hope School?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Is that the polling place you went to?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. And then -- so I wanted to direct

15 your attention to Voter History on the second

16 page. And it says in -- in 2004 -- for each time

17 that you vote, it lists the voting method.

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And it says absentee in 2004. So that's why I

20 was asking you that question.

21 Do -- do you remember whether you used a

22 mail-in absentee ballot in that election --

23 A. No. I don't remember that. I don't recall that

24 at all.

25 Q. Okay. All right. And -- and would you have any

28

1 objection to using a mail-in absentee ballot

2 as -- as a -- as a method of voting in the

3 future?

4 A. Yes. I don't trust it.

5 Q. Okay. But you don't know whether you -- you did

6 that in 2004?

7 A. No. I don't -- I don't remember doing that.

8 Q. Okay. And why -- you say you don't trust it.

9 Why is that?

10 A. Because the mail get lost every day.

11 Q. And you testified earlier, too, that you thought

12 that a reduction in the number of days of early

13 voting may have caused the line that you saw when

14 you went to vote on election day.

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. And can you explain to me why you believe that?

17 A. Because in the previous years, that line -- the

18 lines were not like that. Last time I voted and

19 I stand in line, I didn't even stand in line but

20 maybe like 15 -- 15, 20 minutes? If it was that.

21 The first -- my son, the first year he

22 was able to vote, we went together. And I don't

23 recall. The line wasn't long.

24 Q. And I believe you said, too, in previous years at

25 this same precinct they had more computers; is

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29

1 that right?

2 A. Yep. Uh-huh.

3 Q. And how many more did you say you thought they

4 had?

5 A. That -- that particular year, it was -- it was

6 like four or five computers.

7 Q. And how do you know whether the lines that you

8 experienced this year were caused by the fewer

9 number of computers or by the cuts to early

10 voting?

11 A. I think both of them played a part. I think the

12 computer and the cuts to early voting. I think

13 both of them. Both of them played a part in the

14 line.

15 The early -- the early voting, it

16 didn't -- the cutting -- cutting the days for

17 early voting didn't help. And having two

18 computers didn't help either. So I think both of

19 them played a part.

20 Q. But you don't know specifically how much one

21 influenced a line versus the other?

22 A. No. No. I don't.

23 Q. And I know -- so you don't know. But you don't

24 have an opinion either way about whether one was

25 more significant than the other?

30

1 MS. RIGGS: Objection to form.

2 But you can go ahead and answer the

3 question.

4 A. I -- I -- I don't really -- you know, it's no way

5 to really tell. But I feel like that if it had

6 been worked out properly, the -- maybe I had a

7 little more time voting -- early voting and more

8 computers, it probably wouldn't have been that

9 long, the line. That's just my opinion, now.

10 But...

11 Q. And did you ever discuss with the Southern

12 Coalition for Social Justice anything about the

13 effect of the cuts to early voting on the line

14 that you saw on election day?

15 A. George did ask me why did I -- what -- why did I

16 think the lines was so long. And I did tell him

17 that I think the voting -- the cuts to voting --

18 early voting and plus the computers played a part

19 in it.

20 Q. And did you discuss the cuts to early voting with

21 Mr. Eppsteiner?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Okay. And what did you discuss with him about

24 that?

25 A. Excuse me, repeat that.

31

1 Q. Yeah. What did you discuss with Mr. Eppsteiner

2 about the cuts to early voting, specifically?

3 A. Oh, he -- no. He asked me why did I think the

4 lines were long.

5 Q. Yeah.

6 A. That was before he found out about the computers.

7 And I told him that I think that early voting was

8 a part. And then when I found out about the

9 computers, I told him, I said, "Well, the

10 computers played a part in it, also." The two go

11 hand in hand, both of them, pretty much.

12 MR. McKNIGHT: All right. Ms. Pitt, I

13 don't believe that I have any further questions

14 for you.

15 MS. RIGGS: No further questions here

16 either.

17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

18 deposition. The time is 4:23 p.m.

19 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]

20 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:23 P.M.]

21

22

23

24

25

32

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )

3

4 I, JENNIFER C. CARROLL, Court Reporter and

5 Notary Public, the officer before whom the proceeding

6 was conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose

7 testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding was duly

8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter

10 transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 16th day of June, 2015.

20

21

22

Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

23 Notary Public #19923280118

24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-49 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 8

MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015

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1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

v. ) 1:13CV658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor )

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

and )

)

LOUIS M. DUKE, et al., ) 1:13CV660

)

Plaintiffs-Intervenors,)

v. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants. )

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

v. ) 1:13CV861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants. )

DEPOSITION OF MARCIA PLEASANT

__________________________________________________

5:03 P.M.

FRIDAY, JUNE 5, 2015

__________________________________________________

GLEN, MILLS, FISHER & MAHONEY, P.A.

404 HUNT STREET, SUITE 100

DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA

By: Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M

2

A P P E A R A N C E S

For the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP:

ADVANCEMENT PROJECT

BY: DONITA JUDGE

CAITLIN SWAIN

1220 L Street NW, Suite 850

Washington, D.C. 20005

(202)728-9557

djudge@advancementproject.org

cswain@advancementproject.org

For the State of North Carolina:

NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

SPECIAL LITIGATION SECTION

KATHERINE A. MURPHY

SPECIAL DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL

114 W. Edenton Street

Raleigh, North Carolina 27603

(919)716-6900

kmurphy@ncdoj.gov

3

INDEX OF EXAMINATION

Examinations Page

By Ms. Murphy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

By Ms. Swain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22

By Ms. Murphy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30

4

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

Exhibit Description Page

(None Marked)

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5

STIPULATIONS

It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the

parties to this action, through their respective

counsel of record:

1. That the deposition of Marcia Pleasant may

be taken on June 5, 2015, at 5:03 p.m. in Durham, NC

before Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M.

2. That the deposition shall be taken and used

as permitted by the applicable Federal Rules of Civil

Procedure.

3. That any objections of any party hereto as

to notice of the taking of said deposition or as to

the time or place thereof, or as to the competency of

the person before whom the same shall be taken, are

deemed to have been met.

4. That objections to questions and motions to

strike answers need not be made during the taking of

this deposition, but may be made for the first time

during the progress of the trial of this case, or at

any pretrial hearing held before any judge of

competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling

thereon, or any other hearing at which said

deposition shall be used, except that objections to

the form of the question must be made at the time

such question is asked or objection as to the form of

6

the question is waived.

5. That the witness reserves the right to read

and sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.

6. That the sealed original of the transcript

shall be mailed First Class Postage Paid or

hand-delivered to the party taking the deposition for

preservation and delivery to the Court if and when

necessary.

7

1 MARCIA PLEASANT,

2 having been first sworn or affirmed by the

3 Certified Verbatim Reporter and Notary Public

4 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

5 but the truth, testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. MURPHY:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Pleasant. I'm Kathy Murphy.

9 I represent the defendants in this lawsuit.

10 MS. MURPHY: And I guess do you all

11 want to put your names on the record before we

12 start?

13 MS. SWAIN: Good afternoon. My name

14 is Caitlin Swain, and I am counsel for the North

15 Carolina NAACP, plaintiffs, in this matter.

16 MS. JUDGE: Good afternoon. I'm

17 Donita Judge representing the North Carolina

18 NAACP, plaintiffs, and I work with Advancement

19 Project.

20 MS. MURPHY: Okay.

21 Q. Ms. Pleasant, have you ever been deposed before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. So you're aware that we've got a court

24 reporter who's taking down everything we say?

25 A. Uh-huh.

8

1 Q. So if you'll try not to speak over me and I'll

2 try not to speak over you --

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. -- that will help her.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. And then remember to answer out loud with yes

7 and no as opposed to nodding or saying uh-huh,

8 huh-uh.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Okay. And you realize you're under oath as if

11 you were testifying in court?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Okay. Is there any reason today why you can't

14 understand me and my questions and answer them

15 truthfully and completely?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Are you a registered voter in North

18 Carolina?

19 A. I am.

20 Q. Where are you registered? What county?

21 A. Durham County.

22 Q. How long have you been registered in Durham

23 County?

24 A. Since I was 18, and I'm 50. I don't know how

25 many years that is.

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9

1 Q. That's fine. What is your date of birth?

2 A. 1963.

3 Q. And have you always lived in Durham County?

4 A. No, I have not.

5 Q. Okay. Where else have you lived?

6 A. Germany, Texas, Ohio, Virginia. Oh, I think

7 that's it.

8 Q. Where were you born?

9 A. In Durham.

10 Q. In Durham?

11 A. Uh-huh, Durham County.

12 Q. And have you lived in Durham since you were 18?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. So did you register to vote first time in

15 Durham County --

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. -- at age 18?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And then did you leave Durham Co- -- did you

20 leave North Carolina?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. How old were you at that point?

23 A. Eighteen.

24 Q. Okay. Did you vote when you were 18?

25 A. I did.

10

1 Q. And then when did you come back to North

2 Carolina?

3 A. In 2001.

4 Q. And you came back to Durham?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And did you register to vote again?

7 A. I updated my information.

8 Q. Okay. But you had never canceled your

9 registration?

10 A. No. Huh-uh.

11 Q. Okay. And did you vote consistently since 2001?

12 A. I did. I have.

13 Q. Okay. Do you intend to vote in every election?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you vote in the municipal as well as

16 presidential and mid-years?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Okay. Did you vote in the general election of

19 2014?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And did you vote in the primary of 2014?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Did you vote provisionally in 2014?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Okay. Why is that?

11

1 A. Because I was told my name was not on the log,

2 the registration log, the voter log when I got

3 to my voting poll.

4 Q. Have you always been registered -- well, since

5 2001 have you been registered in the same

6 precinct in Durham County?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And have you moved within Durham County since

9 2001?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Where do you currently live?

12 A. My address, my physical address?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. 3005 September Drive, Durham, and it's 27703.

15 Q. And how long have you lived at that address?

16 A. Since 2013, July 2013.

17 Q. Where did you live before that?

18 A. I lived at Patterson Place Apartments. It's off

19 of Old Chapel Hill Road, and that's 27707.

20 Q. Okay. And how -- when did you first start

21 living at the Paterson Place Apartments?

22 A. Three years prior. I'm not exactly sure.

23 Q. That's fine. Would you say roughly 2010 --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- is when you moved there?

12

1 A. Uh-huh. 2009.

2 Q. 2009?

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. Okay. And then prior to that, where did you

5 live?

6 A. Prior to that, I lived on Tinsbury Place in Hope

7 Valley Farms, 27713.

8 Q. And how long would you say -- or when

9 approximately did you move to Tinsbury Place?

10 A. I stayed there five years, so I'm not really

11 sure of the math.

12 Q. 2004?

13 A. Yeah, uh-huh, something like that.

14 Q. That's fine. It doesn't have to be exact.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Okay. So do you know if the location you lived

17 at Tins- -- when you were in Tinsbury Place,

18 whether that was the same precinct as Patterson

19 Place Apartments?

20 A. It was not.

21 Q. Okay. Did you change -- did you do anything to

22 inform the Durham Board of Elections when you

23 moved?

24 A. I've always updated my information with the

25 Board of Elections, yes.

REDACTED

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13

1 Q. Okay. So after you -- I assume you voted at

2 some point while you were living at Tinsbury

3 Place?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then when you first voted in the precinct in

6 which you had moved to when you lived at

7 Patterson Place Apartments, did you have any

8 trouble voting that first time?

9 A. No, no trouble. I was fairly sure of the

10 location. I was informed -- I think I got a

11 card in the mail of the voting location.

12 Q. Okay. So you knew where you needed to go to

13 vote?

14 A. I knew where I needed to go, uh-huh.

15 Q. And they had you listed in the poll book when

16 you got there?

17 A. No. Actually, they didn't, not the first -- not

18 the very first time I voted --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- at that location. But the next time I voted,

21 they did have me listed.

22 Q. Okay. What happened the first time you voted if

23 you weren't in the poll book? What -- what --

24 were you able to vote?

25 A. I was able to vote, but I -- I didn't fill out a

14

1 provisional -- I don't recall filling out a

2 provisional ballot. I was given a ballot. I

3 was -- I had my card. I had everything I

4 needed, but I'm -- I've only done the

5 provisional in 2014.

6 Q. Okay. So when you went the first time when you

7 were living in Paterson Place Apartments, you

8 weren't on the poll book, but they were -- you

9 were still able to vote --

10 A. I was able to vote.

11 Q. -- at that precinct?

12 THE COURT REPORTER: If you could let

13 her finish.

14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

15 THE COURT REPORTER: It's okay.

16 THE WITNESS: I thought she was done.

17 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

18 Q. So the -- you were able to vote at the actual

19 precinct that you showed up in even though they

20 did -- oh, actually, let me just strike that

21 question and ask do you normally vote on

22 election day, or do you normally vote during

23 early voting?

24 A. I usually vote on election day, normally vote on

25 election day.

15

1 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether you voted on

2 election day in -- the first time you voted when

3 you lived in the Patterson Place Apartments?

4 A. It was election day, yes.

5 Q. Okay. And do you happen to know about how long

6 it had been since you had moved when you went to

7 vote at Patterson Place Apartments? If you

8 don't recall, that's fine.

9 A. I don't -- I don't recall.

10 Q. Okay. Okay. And then when you moved to

11 September Drive, did you update your information

12 with the Board of Elections?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. How long would you say it was before you updated

15 that information after you moved?

16 A. It was before I moved. That's part of my

17 checklist. I tried to update all my bills and

18 information prior to me moving.

19 Q. Okay. And so did you vote on election day in

20 2014?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And I apologize if I've asked you this already.

23 Did you vote in the primary in 2014?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Okay.

16

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. Did not vote in the primary?

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. Okay. So just the general election in November?

5 A. Yes. Uh-huh.

6 Q. And when you got to your -- did you know where

7 your polling place was when you lived on

8 September Drive?

9 A. Not initially, no.

10 Q. Okay. What polling place did you go to?

11 A. I went to the -- there was a school and I don't

12 remember the name of the school, but in the

13 primary when I attempted to vote, I got there

14 late because I got lost so I knew for the -- for

15 that -- the 2014 main election I went back to

16 the school and -- I'm sorry. I -- could you

17 repeat the question?

18 Q. Well, I realized I didn't ask every question I

19 should have. You said you did not vote in the

20 2014 primary?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Did you attempt to vote in the --

23 A. I attempted to vote, --

24 Q. -- 2014 primary?

25 A. -- yes. I think that's why I'm getting

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17

1 confused. Uh-huh.

2 Q. Okay. And but you say you got there too late?

3 A. I got there too late, uh-huh.

4 Q. That was on election day?

5 A. Yes. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Okay. And you went to a school to vote?

7 A. I went to a school to vote.

8 Q. Why did you choose that particular place as the

9 place you went to vote?

10 A. I knew that's where I was supposed to go.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I was new to the neighborhood, so when I took

13 off on my -- to go vote, I just went in the

14 wrong direction so I got completely lost. By

15 the time I got out of traffic and to the school,

16 it was too late to vote, so I wasn't able to

17 vote.

18 Q. Okay. But you had some information that

19 indicated to you that the school was the proper

20 polling place?

21 A. I believe I did receive a card in the mail for

22 that location.

23 Q. Okay. And then in November 2014, you went back

24 to that location to vote in the general

25 election?

18

1 A. Well, I said I did, but it's -- it was on the

2 way to the general election where I actually

3 voted at the library. You pass the school, and

4 then the library is beyond the school, so. And,

5 actually, I did go just to make sure. I did

6 drive up in the parking lot. No one was there,

7 but I just wanted to make sure because I was

8 lost and I didn't want to get -- not be able to

9 vote, but then I went to the library, so.

10 Q. Okay. So the school is not actually the polling

11 place; --

12 A. It is not.

13 Q. -- is that what you're saying?

14 A. It was, but it is no longer. But I just wanted

15 to make sure, so I actually did drive in the

16 parking lot and I drove out and went to where I

17 was supposed to be.

18 Q. So are you saying the polling place had been

19 moved from the school to the library?

20 A. Yes, it had been. Uh-huh.

21 Q. Okay. And so how did you know that?

22 A. I knew that based on a sign that was posted

23 there because I never actually received a card

24 to say the library was the place. It was a sign

25 that was posted in the -- on the side -- near

19

1 the sidewalk of the old polling place.

2 Q. Okay. A sign directing you, don't vote here;

3 you vote at the library, --

4 A. At the library, uh-huh.

5 Q. -- to that effect?

6 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

7 Q. Okay. So you went to the library to vote, and

8 that's where they told you that you were not in

9 their poll book?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. So did you request a provisional ballot,

12 or did they offer it to you? Do you recall?

13 A. They offered the provisional ballot.

14 Q. Okay. And did they -- have you since made any

15 attempt to find out why you weren't in the poll

16 book?

17 A. I made an attempt that night to find out why I

18 wasn't in the poll book because I knew I had

19 sent my change of address to the Election Board.

20 Q. And did you have any success in finding out that

21 night?

22 A. That night, no.

23 Q. Did you ask the poll workers about it?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And what was their response?

20

1 A. It was -- I don't remember a quote. I couldn't

2 quote what they said. It was just a -- kind of

3 a flip response to it. It was just some --

4 "mistakes happen" or something like that.

5 Q. Okay. And did you later attempt to contact the

6 Durham County Board of Elections to find out why

7 you weren't listed in the poll book?

8 A. When I got my provisional ballot, I used that

9 number to ask -- to call and keep up with that

10 -- my provisional ballot and I did ask, I mean.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. When I did call, my name was on the books, but

13 he couldn't tell me why I wasn't there.

14 Q. Okay. So were you able to find out whether your

15 provisional ballot counted?

16 A. I was.

17 Q. And did it count?

18 A. He -- yes. He said it did.

19 Q. Okay. And so I guess you've not had an

20 opportunity to vote since then?

21 A. No.

22 Q. But have you been told by the Durham County

23 Board of Elections that you are, in fact,

24 registered and listed in the -- the --

25 A. Well, I received my card in the mail in December

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21

1 of 2014. My -- that said you are at -- now at

2 this location, which was the library --

3 Q. Oh, so --

4 A. -- and the precinct.

5 Q. -- prior to that -- December 2014, you hadn't

6 received the card yet?

7 A. No, I had not.

8 Q. I see. But now you have gotten it?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And I have it with me. It's post-dated December

12 2014.

13 Q. Okay. Have you had any other problems occur

14 voting over the past however many years?

15 A. No. I --

16 MS. JUDGE: Objection to form.

17 THE WITNESS: Okay.

18 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead and repeat your answer.

19 A. No.

20 Q. No, okay. I have no further questions.

21 MS. JUDGE: Can we go off?

22 MS. SWAIN: Yeah, we're just going to

23 take one moment.

24 MS. MURPHY: We'll go off the record.

25 (Brief recess: 5:17 p.m. to 5:20 p.m.)

22

1 MS. SWAIN: Okay. I do have some

2 questions.

3 THE WITNESS: Sure.

4 EXAMINATION

5 BY MS. SWAIN:

6 Q. Ms. Pleasant, what was your experience when you

7 arrived at the polling place to vote in November

8 of 2014?

9 A. Well, it was -- I was met with a horrible

10 traffic jam. I -- and then after I found a

11 parking spot, which was difficult, I ended up

12 standing in a very long, slow-moving line, and

13 it was just a very different experience. I've

14 never experienced anything like that before.

15 Q. And what time did you get to the polling place

16 to vote, to your memory?

17 A. I believe it was 5:30. It was -- it was after

18 work.

19 Q. And how would you describe the line that you

20 just mentioned?

21 A. Long, slow-moving. Everybody was kind of quiet

22 and just orderly, but it was a very long and

23 slow-moving line.

24 Q. How many people would you estimate were in the

25 line when you arrived, if you --

23

1 A. I would guess about 200 people.

2 Q. And were there -- what time did you -- to your

3 memory, what time did you reach the polling

4 place?

5 A. I remember it was just before closing, just

6 before the polls closed. I think 7:15 was when

7 I actually got to the steps of the polling

8 place.

9 Q. And how -- why do you remember that?

10 A. Because someone in the building, I'm assuming a

11 poll worker, came out and started issuing

12 tickets for the people that were in line because

13 they knew that the amount of people there was

14 going to exceed the time that the polls closed.

15 Q. At that time, were there people behind you in

16 line?

17 A. There were a lot of people behind me, yes,

18 uh-huh.

19 Q. How many people would you estimate at that time

20 were behind you, if you can?

21 A. No less than a hundred.

22 Q. While you were in line, did you see anyone leave

23 the line?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And when you reached the polls, can you describe

24

1 the conversation that you had with the -- with

2 the person who was looking at the poll book?

3 A. I stood in my line per my alphabet and stated my

4 name and she looked in the book, and my name

5 wasn't there. And I asked her again to look

6 again and she told me my name wasn't there, but

7 I happened to notice my son's name was there and

8 we live in the same household. And I asked her

9 -- I didn't understand that because he had not

10 voted and I've been a registered voter since I

11 was 18, so.

12 Q. And you testified earlier that you were offered

13 a provisional ballot?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did the poll worker who offered you the

16 provisional ballot explain what a provisional

17 ballot was?

18 A. She did not, the poll worker at the table at the

19 books, but the next person that I was directed

20 to did explain a provisional ballot, yes.

21 Q. And what did that worker tell you what a

22 provisional ballot is?

23 A. She told me it was just like a regular ballot,

24 that I would just have to fill out my

25 information manually and that I would be allowed

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25

1 to vote -- allowed to vote. And she gave me my

2 ballot number with the instructions to follow up

3 with -- with the Board of Elections.

4 Q. Did you understand at the time that there was a

5 poss- -- strike that.

6 Did the -- did anyone in the precinct tell

7 you that there was a possibility that your

8 provisional ballot would not count?

9 A. No, I don't think I was ever told that.

10 Q. When you left the polling place after casting

11 the provisional ballot, were there still people

12 in line?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was there only one line to your precinct?

15 A. There was one line for my precinct, yes.

16 Q. Was there any other precincts in that same area?

17 A. There was another precinct in an adjoining room

18 in the building, yes.

19 Q. Can you describe how that was set up?

20 A. The line that I was in, we were going into the

21 library, and the other precinct, like a door on

22 the side of the library, you could see clearly

23 inside that room with voting machines and

24 workers, and there were only, at most, five

25 people in the room at a time to vote. There was

26

1 no rush or line in that -- in that space.

2 Q. So how close together were these two precincts?

3 I just want to make sure that I understand.

4 A. Well, it was a -- an attached room to the

5 building, so they were very close. It was on

6 the side of the building as opposed to the front

7 of the building where I -- where I was in line.

8 Q. From the line that you were standing in, could

9 you see the other line?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. And did anyone ask questions about why there

12 were these two lines?

13 A. Several people did ask why we couldn't go over

14 there, and several people walked over there to

15 vote, but they were sent back when they realized

16 that -- that it was a different precinct.

17 Q. And could you describe, if you know, the racial

18 characteristics of the people who were in each

19 of these lines?

20 A. The shorter line, the other precinct, it was --

21 I only observed one African-American family, and

22 I only -- I know that because I was watching the

23 children play. And the racial makeup of the

24 other voters, they were all Caucasian. And then

25 the line that I was in, it was a mix, mainly

27

1 Caucasian, black. There were a few Hispanic.

2 But there was a mix of voters in the line that I

3 was standing in.

4 Q. Have you ever experienced lines like this in

5 previous elections where you've --

6 A. I never have, no, huh-uh.

7 Q. What do you believe caused the long line?

8 A. The cramped space that the -- that my polling

9 area -- my -- my poll was in. And it seemed

10 very unorganized inside the room. It was a very

11 small space, inadequate, in my opinion, to

12 accommodate the number of people that came to

13 vote.

14 Q. And if it had -- strike that.

15 How would you describe your November 2014

16 voting experience?

17 A. I will use the word disenfranchised. It's not a

18 word that I use -- I have in my vocabulary on a

19 regular basis, but I felt some -- cheated. I

20 felt -- I just felt like -- I just felt like I

21 wasted all that time. I -- really I didn't feel

22 like my vote was going to count when I walked

23 away, so I just felt -- I was just totally

24 shocked at the whole process. I was in

25 disbelief at the unorganization and I -- I just

28

1 couldn't -- I just couldn't believe the whole

2 thing happened the way it happened.

3 Q. And what time was it when you actually left the

4 polling place, if you remember?

5 A. It was after eight o'clock. I don't remember

6 the exact time. I think it was between 8:30 and

7 8:45.

8 Q. And why -- why do you remember that time, if you

9 have a reason?

10 A. I don't remember why I remembered it. I -- I

11 know I had been on the phone with a friend of

12 mine saying, "Can you believe I'm still in this

13 line," and then he text -- he text -- we were

14 texting back and forth, "I'm still in the line."

15 He couldn't believe I was still in line. But I

16 -- I'm -- you know, I don't know why I remember

17 that time exactly, but I just -- I do remember

18 it was about -- it was -- it was about -- about

19 8:30.

20 Q. Did you ever consider leaving the line?

21 A. No, I never did.

22 Q. And why not?

23 A. Because I wanted to vote. I was there to vote.

24 Q. Were you worried that anyone else was

25 considering leaving the line?

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-50 Filed 07/08/15 Page 7 of 9

MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015

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29

1 A. Yes, I was very concerned with the people in

2 line who had small children. And I could hear

3 different conversations that they needed to pick

4 their children up or their children were hungry

5 or had to go to the bathroom. Some people --

6 other children used the bathroom in the woods.

7 I mean, it was -- I was just concerned that, you

8 know, these people wouldn't be able to vote

9 because they had been standing there for so

10 long.

11 Q. And do you believe that your provisional ballot

12 did count in this election?

13 A. They said it did when I called and they said

14 yes, but I -- I just -- no, I just didn't trust

15 the whole process. I didn't feel like it

16 counted.

17 Q. Did this experience make you lose trust in the

18 process?

19 A. To a degree, but I'm -- I'm sure I'll vote. It

20 didn't make me not want to vote, but, yes, to

21 answer your question.

22 Q. I've got no further questions. Thank you,

23 Ms. Pleasant.

24 A. Thank you.

25 MS. MURPHY: I have some few follow-up

30

1 questions.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay.

3 EXAMINATION

4 BY MS. MURPHY:

5 Q. How many -- at the polling place where you voted

6 in 2014, was it voting machines or, you know,

7 paper ballots?

8 A. I was just paper ballot.

9 Q. That you fill in --

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. -- with a pencil?

12 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

13 Q. How many people -- polling officials were there

14 to do checking in?

15 A. Two or three at the table, and then at -- to

16 check in, two or three.

17 Q. And do you know what the -- or could you tell

18 what the reason was for the long line?

19 A. The space was just a little larger than this

20 room. It was cramped. There weren't a lot of

21 polling machines or stands because they weren't

22 machines.

23 Q. Could you estimate how many stands there were?

24 A. Maybe 15, 15 spaces.

25 Q. Okay.

31

1 A. I guess -- I would guess. But then people were

2 using tables or, you know, if it was an overflow

3 to use the -- the stand, the private stand, so.

4 Q. And you had not voted at that polling location

5 in the past?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you don't know how this compares to previous

8 years in terms of length of the wait of the long

9 -- of the length of the lines?

10 A. No. It's my understanding that that was the

11 first time at that location.

12 Q. Okay. And do you know why, though -- have you

13 been told by anybody from, say, the Board of

14 Elections what accounted for the long lines?

15 A. No. Huh-uh.

16 Q. Okay. I have nothing further.

17 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]

18 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 5:36 P.M.]

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

32

A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T

I, MARCIA PLEASANT, declare under the

penalties of perjury under the State of North

Carolina that I have read the foregoing 31 pages,

which contain a correct transcription of answers made

by me to the questions therein recorded, with the

exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the

correction sheet attached hereto, if any.

Signed this the day of , 2015.

MARCIA PLEASANT

State of:

County of:

Subscribed and sworn to before me this

day of , 2015.

Notary Public

My commission expires:

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-50 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 9

MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015

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33

E R R A T A S H E E T

Case Name: North Carolina State Conference of the

NAACP, et al., v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory,

et al., and related cases

Witness Name: Marcia Pleasant

Deposition Date: June 5, 2015

Page/Line Reads Should Read

____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

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____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

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____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

____/____|___________________|_______________________

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____/____|___________________|_______________________

Signature Date

34

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) C E R T I F I C A T ECOUNTY OF JOHNSTON )

I, TAMMY JOHNSON, Court Reporter and

Notary Public, the officer before whom the

foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby

certify that the witness(es) whose testimony

appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn

by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were

taken by me to the best of my ability and

thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and

that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a

true and accurate transcription of the testimony of

the witness(es).

I do further certify that I am neither

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

parties to this action, and further, that I am not

a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel

employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or

otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.

This the 17th day of June 2015.

Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M Notary Public #20011560080

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-50 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 9

CHERIE POUCHER July 2, 2014

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1 (Pages 1 to 4)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

CHERIE POUCHER

2

1

2 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

3 CHERIE POUCHER

4 _________________________________________________________

5 12:03 P.M.

6 WEDNESDAY, JULY 2, 2014

_________________________________________________________

7

8 OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART

4208 SIX FORKS ROAD

9 SUITE 1100

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

10

11

12

13 By: Denise Myers Byrd, CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02

14

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3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS

BY: JODI WU, ESQ.5 655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.

Washington, DC 200056 (202) 879-5054

jodi.wu@kirkland.com7

ADVANCEMENT PROJECT8 BY: DENISE LIEBERMAN, ESQ.

1220 L Street, N.W.9 Suite 850

Washington, DC 2000510 (202) 728-9557

dlieberman@advancementproject.org11

12 Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:13 SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE

BY: ANITA EARLS, ESQ.14 1415 West Highway 54

Suite 10115 Durham, NC 27707

(919) 323-338016 anitaearls@southerncoalition.org17

Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:18

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE19 BY: ELIZABETH RYAN, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.20 Washington, DC 20530

(800) 253-393121 elizabeth.ryan@usdoj.gov22

23

24

25

4

1

2 Counsel for Plaintiff-IntervenorsLeague of Women Voters:

3

PERKINS COIE4 BY: JOHN M. DEVANEY, ESQ.

700 Thirteenth Street, N.W.5 Suite 600

Washington, DC 20005-39606 (202) 628-6200

jdevaney@perkinscoie.com7

8 Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina andMembers of the State Board of Elections:

9

OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART10 BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.

4208 Six Forks Road11 Suite 1100

Raleigh, NC 2760912 (919) 787-9700

thomas.farr@ogletreedeakins.com13

NORTH CAROLINA ATTORNEY GENERAL14 BY: ALEC McC. PETERS, ESQ.

114 W. Edenton Street15 Raleigh, NC 27603-1013

(919) 716-690016 apeters@ncdoj.gov17

For the deponent:18

WAKE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE19 BY: SCOTT W. WARREN, ESQ.

PO Box 55020 Raleigh, NC 27602

(919) 856-550021 swarren@co.wake.nc.us22

23

24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-51 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 68

CHERIE POUCHER July 2, 2014

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5

1

2 Reported By:3 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS4 BY: DENISE MYERS BYRD, CSR 8340, RPR

TRAE HOWERTON, Videographer5 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 10006 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 649-99987 denise@discoverydepo.com8

--o0o--9

10

11

INDEX OF EXAMINATION12 Page13

14 By Ms. Wu............................... 815 By Mr. Devaney.......................... 6916 By Mr. Farr............................. 8017

18 --o0o--19

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6

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION Page3 206 Declaration of Cherie Poucher 144 207 Written Comments, Cherie Poucher,

Director of Elections, Wake County,5 North Carolina, Implementations and

Use of Provisional Voting 536

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7

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at

2 12:03 p.m. Today's date is July 2, 2014.

3 This is the videotaped deposition of

4 Ms. Cherie Poucher.

5 Will counsel please now introduce

6 themselves and then our court reporter will

7 swear in the witness.

8 MS. WU: Jodi Wu from Kirkland & Ellis

9 on behalf of the NAACP plaintiffs.

10 MS. LIEBERMAN: Denise Lieberman with

11 Advancement Project on behalf of the NAACP

12 plaintiffs.

13 MS. EARLS: Anita Earls on behalf of

14 the League of Women Voter plaintiffs.

15 MR. PETERS: Alec Peters with the

16 North Carolina Attorney General's Office on

17 behalf of defendants.

18 MR. FARR: Tom Farr from Ogletree

19 Deakins here in Raleigh, co-counsel with the

20 Attorney General.

21 MR. WARREN: Scott Warren, Wake County

22 attorney representing.

23 ///

24 ///

25 ///

8

1 CHERIE POUCHER,

2 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the

3 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,

4 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,

5 testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. WU:

8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Poucher.

9 A. Hi.

10 Q. Thank you for appearing today. I know you're

11 very busy and I won't take very much of your

12 time.

13 I represent the NAACP plaintiffs in a

14 lawsuit challenging HB 589. And for the

15 record, you gave a declaration in this case?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Have you been deposed in the past in any other

18 litigation?

19 A. Yes, in -- several years ago and then I believe

20 either -- I think it was 2000.

21 Q. What were those two cases about?

22 A. Redistricting.

23 Q. Both of them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And so since you've been through the process

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9

1 before, I am just going to run through a couple

2 ground rules.

3 Because we have a court reporter here

4 who's taking down everything we say, if you

5 wait until I finish my question to answer so

6 we're not talking over each other, and then if

7 you give a reply, make sure that it's oral so

8 that the court reporter can take it down.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. And you know this subject much better than I do

11 so if any of my questions are confusing, feel

12 free to ask for any clarification, but if you

13 respond, I'm going to assume that you

14 understood my question.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Great. How did you prepare for this deposition

17 today?

18 A. I met with Tom Farr to go over what I said in

19 the affidavit and in regards to some of the

20 statutes.

21 Q. And when did you meet with Mr. Farr?

22 A. Yesterday.

23 Q. And how long was that meeting?

24 A. 30 minutes to 45 minutes, I believe.

25 Q. Was anyone else at that meeting?

10

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you give me a sense of your educational

3 background after high school?

4 A. I went to court reporting school, and then I

5 did not work at all when my children were

6 growing up. I did court reporting when we

7 lived in Florida, and then we moved to

8 North Carolina in 1985. So I did not have any

9 further actual education except for I have

10 attended and received a national certification

11 for election administrators through the

12 Election Center.

13 Q. Great. And after you moved to North Carolina

14 in 1985, what was your first job in this city?

15 A. I was an administrative assistant to the Courts

16 Commission for the State of North Carolina.

17 Q. How long were you at that job?

18 A. That's so long ago, I cannot really remember.

19 Q. To the best of your recollection.

20 A. I prefer not to guess.

21 Q. Okay. After that job, where did you go next?

22 A. I worked in the Department of Administration

23 for a few months and then I worked in the

24 Governor's Office for Boards and Commissions

25 until I got my present position in July of

11

1 1991.

2 Q. Great. And how long were you at the Governor's

3 Office?

4 A. I can't remember exactly when I started there,

5 so I prefer not to give anything definite.

6 Q. That's fine.

7 And can you repeat, when did you start

8 at the County Board of Elections?

9 A. July 1, 1991.

10 Q. And to clarify, that was at the Wake County --

11 A. Wake County Board of Elections, correct.

12 Q. What was your position when you first started

13 there?

14 A. At that time, by statute, we were called

15 supervisors.

16 Q. And how long were you in that position?

17 A. I still am.

18 Q. So does that mean the title changed from

19 supervisor --

20 A. The legislature changed the title from

21 supervisor to director of elections, but I do

22 not know the year.

23 Q. So from 1991 to the present you've been in the

24 same position even though the title of your job

25 changed?

12

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Okay. And what are your duties as the director

3 of --

4 A. The main responsibility is to follow all of the

5 statutes for federal, state, county

6 governments, register the voters, comply with

7 all of the list maintenance procedures, conduct

8 elections, bond referendums, and that would

9 include municipalities, everything related to

10 an election.

11 Q. And how many employees does Wake County Board

12 of Elections have?

13 A. That depends on the time of year. Right now we

14 have 19. The county recently enacted their

15 budget, gave us five additional positions. At

16 election time, we can hire up to a hundred plus

17 temporary staff.

18 So at this time, because I do have an

19 election in two weeks, I do have a multitude of

20 part-time staff working on the election

21 process, and then, of course, over 2,000

22 precinct officials on election day depending on

23 the type of election.

24 Q. And the 2,000 precinct officials, are they

25 temps or something different?

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13

1 A. They're considered contract workers. They're

2 appointed by the Board pursuant to statute.

3 Q. Are they paid through the Wake County Board of

4 Elections?

5 A. They are paid through the Board of Elections --

6 well, paid through Wake County government.

7 Q. And the 100 temps, are those also paid through

8 the Wake County government?

9 A. No. We have a contract with a vendor that

10 handles all of their time sheets and pay.

11 Q. Do you pay the vendor, then?

12 A. Correct, through the finance. We go out for

13 bid, et cetera. We follow all of the county

14 finance procedures.

15 Q. Okay. And then as part of your duties as the

16 director of the Wake County Board of Elections,

17 do you have any role in forming the budget?

18 A. My staff does that. I review it at the end and

19 then it's presented to my Board. My Board is

20 the -- is basically the one that determines --

21 I determine the administrative needs and

22 election. They determine anything relating to

23 early voting. Then that goes to my budget

24 analyst. We work with that. Then we put

25 together a presentation for the budget office

14

1 and county manager. Then it goes before the

2 commissioners.

3 Q. You said someone else on your staff determines

4 the budget for early voting. Who would that

5 be?

6 A. The Board.

7 Q. The Board. And then what would be your

8 greatest -- what makes up your greatest

9 expenditure as part of the budget?

10 A. People, paper and places.

11 Q. And what of those three -- so what percentage

12 is people, what percentage is paper and what

13 percentage is places?

14 A. I can't give you percentages.

15 Q. But those are the three main?

16 A. Those are the three main.

17 Q. You gave a declaration in this case, and I'm

18 going to mark this as Exhibit 206.

19 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiff's Exhibit 206 was

20 marked for identification.)

21 BY MS. WU:

22 Q. If you want to take a minute to review it to

23 make sure it's your declaration. Just let me

24 know when you're ready.

25 A. Okay.

15

1 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom on page 5

2 of your declaration?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And is this a true and accurate copy of your

5 declaration?

6 A. To the best of my ability.

7 Q. Great. How did you prepare this declaration?

8 A. I had spoken with the Attorney General's

9 Office -- I cannot remember the woman's name.

10 I had not known her before -- and she had asked

11 that I complete a declaration. I talked with

12 Scott Warren, the county attorney. He said to

13 go ahead.

14 I was told the main thrust of what my

15 declaration should be. I typed this, sent it

16 back to my county attorney, and then I signed

17 it and sent it to the Attorney General's

18 Office.

19 Q. Did you ever meet with anyone from the Attorney

20 General's Office --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- about the declaration?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Turning to paragraph 4 of your declaration,

25 which is on page 2, you mention that you -- the

16

1 Wake County Board of Elections does -- or used

2 to do voter registration drives each fall in

3 high schools in Wake County.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. About how many high schools would you cover?

6 A. We cover every single high school in Wake

7 County.

8 Dr. Gilbert was chair of the Board of

9 Elections. He used to be on the Board of

10 Education. We used to do the drives, but when

11 he became board chair, we began making it a

12 contest.

13 In the summer, we met with the head

14 person for -- at the main office in regards to

15 the social studies and gave them information on

16 how to register. You know, there are certain

17 things on a form that you must have. And then

18 that person met with all of the main social

19 studies schools, each of the high schools.

20 They were given a sufficient number of

21 forms. The high school itself, each high

22 school had a list of what we would refer to as

23 the eligible students. By that, I mean those

24 that are citizens and those that would be 18 by

25 the next election.

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17

1 So once schools started back in the

2 fall, they were all set to go. We set a

3 deadline which was prior to the regular voter

4 registration deadline which would make them

5 eligible to vote, for instance, in off-year,

6 make them eligible to vote for the municipal

7 elections in October and November.

8 Each school, also to my knowledge, had

9 student representatives and it was a very

10 successful program.

11 Q. What do you mean by very successful?

12 A. You could have -- I think Broughten won it one

13 year with 99 percent of the eligible

14 registering.

15 Q. Do you know offhand annually how many of these

16 16- and 17-year-olds you registered through

17 these voter registration drives?

18 A. I could not give a number, no.

19 Q. Going back to paragraph 4, you state that --

20 it's about I think the third sentence down:

21 "The pre-registration of 16- and

22 17-year-olds created confusion among 16- and

23 17-year-olds who may have thought that -- who

24 may have then thought he or she was registered

25 and could vote."

18

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. What's the basis for your statement?

3 A. We would get calls in our office wanting to

4 know why they had not gotten a voter

5 registration card.

6 Q. Did you speak to any of these people yourself?

7 A. No, I didn't. I couldn't remember. I might

8 have talked to some. I've got staff that

9 answers the phone, you know, before it gets to

10 me. And then you'd have to explain to them

11 that "I'm sorry, but we will notify when you're

12 going to be eligible and you'll get a voter

13 card at that time."

14 Q. Beyond that conversation, was there -- once you

15 explained or once one of your volunteers

16 explained on the phone, was there any confusion

17 after that?

18 A. That I wouldn't know. I don't know if any of

19 them came to vote at an election and had to be

20 told, no, they weren't in the books.

21 Q. And also in paragraph 4 you mention that

22 pre-registration of 16- and 17-year-olds

23 increases -- increases the administrative costs

24 of county boards of elections.

25 A. Any time an application would come in, you had

19

1 to complete the data entry. That's a resource.2 Then it goes into what is called an IQ. The3 state holds that.4 So we're doing the processing; then it5 goes to the state. The state is responsible6 for getting that back to us when the person is7 going to be eligible. Then we have to move8 that over into our system, send them a voter9 card, and then if they have moved or if they10 have gone away to college and registered at11 college, then we're processing them again,12 sending them a card. So that, again, is a13 county resource.14 Q. So for a normal voter who doesn't go through15 the pre-registration process, what process does16 the county board do to get them registered?17 A. You process it and you send them a voter card.18 You don't have to -- it doesn't go into what19 you would refer the IQ.20 Q. So the only additional step is the IQ step?21 A. And the number who may have moved. We're a22 very transient county.23 Q. But for normal voters, you also have to send24 the verification mailings once a normal voter25 registers through the normal registration?

20

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And sometimes those normal -- those people who

3 register through the normal process, also you

4 have to send them one or two verification

5 mailings?

6 A. We follow the list maintenance procedures, yes.

7 Q. And sometimes with those normal people who

8 register through the normal registration

9 process, you get the second verification back

10 as non-deliverable; is that correct?

11 A. Sometimes, yes. I couldn't give you a number.

12 Q. And then sometimes you would have to reregister

13 them if they show up? If they register -- if

14 you get the second verification back, they get

15 kicked out of the system; is that correct?

16 A. The statewide voter registration system which

17 is run by the State, when that second

18 verification is returned, we barcode it in and

19 then at that time the state's infrastructure

20 takes it to the next status.

21 Q. What's that status?

22 A. My understanding is that status would be

23 denied, but it depends on what the status is at

24 the time.

25 Q. And then going back, you mentioned the IQ

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1 system. What is that?

2 A. If a voter does not complete an application,

3 they don't have their birth date, they don't

4 have a signature, that cannot be processed

5 fully. Therefore it has to go into an IQ

6 system which the state also -- it goes over

7 there and then on a daily basis letters are

8 generated again from the state system to send

9 that voter with a copy of the registration

10 explaining to them what is needed before

11 they're completely registered.

12 Q. And so for pre-registration, until -- before

13 the voter's actually eligible, they go into

14 that IQ system?

15 A. That I do not know. That you'd have to find

16 out exactly through the state system.

17 Q. Okay. Have you ever conducted a study at the

18 Wake County Board of Elections' level comparing

19 the number of undeliverable verification

20 mailings that Wake County receives for

21 pre-registration voters to voters who register

22 through the normal process?

23 A. No because an envelope returned is an envelope

24 returned.

25 Q. Moving on to paragraph 6 of your declaration --

22

1 if you want to flip there -- it starts at the

2 bottom of page 3 but then moves on to page 4.

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. You state that due to HB 589, Wake County had

5 to incur the expense of printing new forms and

6 you list a couple which would be absentee

7 ballot request forms, voter forms and

8 provisional ballot instructions. Do you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were these additional costs for printing

12 anticipated as part of the July 2013 budget

13 that the Wake County Board considered and

14 passed?

15 A. No. All of these were unbudgeted.

16 Q. So prior to each new election, does the Wake

17 County Board of Elections have to print new

18 forms in the normal course?

19 A. Not to this extent. What I'm saying is because

20 of the number and amount of printing we do --

21 for instance, with 650 plus thousand voters, we

22 print more than probably a normal county would

23 because we get a cheaper price that way.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And so we had sufficient stock probably going

23

1 through 2014. The county does not budget for2 anything anticipated; therefore, even though3 the legislature may be discussing possible4 changes, we definitively do not know what it's5 going to be.6 So once we started getting the7 information from the State Board on various8 things that had to be new forms, the wording of9 them, et cetera, we then had to go out and do10 the Request for Bid, bid them, go through11 the -- as I said before, the county purchasing12 and then all of the old forms, of course, would13 be discarded because they're old, and with the14 volume we have, we do not have storage15 sufficient.16 Q. Okay. So just to clarify, you just -- before17 the May 2014 primary, you already had a stock18 of these types of absentee ballot request forms19 from previous elections that you were planning20 on using pre-HB 589?21 A. More the envelopes and things of that nature22 because at that time a voter was allowed to23 write a letter so the forms that you have24 online now you could not have online.25 Q. Got it. And then you mentioned where the new

24

1 funding came from for printing the new forms

2 that were required under HB 589. Can you walk

3 me through that process again?

4 A. For the May primary?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. We went and got the forms redone and cut back

7 on temporary staff in order to meet our budget.

8 Q. So you didn't have to go and request extra

9 funding from the --

10 A. We did not ask for extra funding.

11 Q. Did you get any extra funding from any other

12 source?

13 A. No. The only -- we printed the forms. Now

14 that we've got the new budget in place, we've

15 got the forms that we're doing for 2014

16 general.

17 Q. For general?

18 A. Yes. Those are being done now.

19 Q. You also mention that new training materials

20 had to be drafted --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- by the County Board of Elections?

23 A. We -- as Wake County, we prepare a new precinct

24 official manual for every single election

25 because every single election does have

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1 something different. It's about an2 80 -- 80-plus page document. I think I put one3 of those in or several of them in my -- the4 documents that I had sent previously.5 A primary deals with political parties,6 so you go through the step-by-step with that.7 Then it had to be recreated because of the8 changes in the law.9 We also do training videos that we put

10 online, so any time our officials have a11 question on one aspect of election day, they12 can go through to refer to it. It's the same13 for the training also for early voting. That's14 different because the process is different for15 early voting than election day. So all of that16 had to be printed also.17 Q. So for each election you come up with new18 training materials specific to that election?19 A. That's correct.20 Q. So that's regardless of whether there's a21 change in law, you always come up with22 different training materials?23 A. Correct because we always try to improve.24 Q. Going back to the printing of forms, for the --25 in order to print for the general election in

26

1 November 2014, what's the timeframe that you

2 need to go through the process of doing your --

3 A. We've already ordered the forms. We do have an

4 election July 15th, we have a second primary.

5 As soon as that is done, we will begin

6 unpacking the big tubs that each precinct gets

7 and begin packing for November. It takes a lot

8 of time to put in all of the non-specific items

9 that every precinct gets.

10 Q. So how long, like a month, two months, a couple

11 weeks?

12 A. We will begin right after we have completed the

13 July primary. The forms are in the process of

14 being done, the manual is in the process of

15 being done and the video is completed. We have

16 training starting in August.

17 Q. So again, my question was --

18 A. So you're talking less than a month.

19 Q. Less than a month, okay.

20 A. But the forms, et cetera, they've gone through

21 the process we've had to go through.

22 Q. Okay. Going back to training, for each

23 election, I assume you have a training for your

24 employees.

25 A. That's by statute.

27

1 Q. Okay.2 A. Precinct officials.3 Q. Precinct officials. What kind of training is4 that?5 A. We have four or five different trainings6 depending on are you a new official, have you7 been -- have you gone -- worked before.8 We have what's referred to as a9 hands-on training. New officials get referred10 to a boot camp, which is lengthier, it could be11 all day. Then we have the statutory, which is12 the overview what needs to be done for that13 specific election.14 Then we have what is referred to as15 help training which is someone that works the16 provisional ballot table.17 Q. So I heard the all-day boot camp training, the18 statutory training and then the help desk19 training. Did I cover them all?20 A. You will have intermittent training depending21 on also the length of time you've worked.22 Q. And then for every election you have these23 trainings before the election for precinct24 officials?25 A. That's statutory. Yes.

28

1 Q. Yes. And how long -- you have the all-day boot2 camp for new precinct officials.3 For the other, the statutory training4 and the help desk training, how long are those5 trainings generally?6 A. I will not give an exact because I do not do7 those trainings.8 Q. Is it --9 A. The statutory training is generally three10 hours, but it goes longer. The help table11 is -- is longer because you're also working on12 the laptop and we do have laptop training.13 Q. Longer than three hours?14 A. Yes.15 Q. And that's for every election?16 A. Correct. The only deviation is a primary,17 second primary or an election and runoff. You18 do not have to have the additional training19 between those two.20 Q. And do you pay precinct officials to go to21 these trainings?22 A. They are paid, correct.23 Q. For the May 2014 primary, did you have to do24 any additional training due to HB 589?25 A. We do longer training because of the different

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1 changes and some of the requirements in regards

2 to voter information and education.

3 Q. What was that special training?

4 A. Having to inform anyone that came to vote about

5 the ID requirements, the additional sheet on if

6 someone, by chance, said they did not have ID,

7 we had an affidavit for them to sign and then

8 another sheet of paper for them listing their

9 options. We had what we refer to as wallpaper

10 where it's on the wall explaining to them the

11 changes.

12 So because of the questions, we did

13 have an extended training, but you have to

14 remember, a lot of that was done in October and

15 November 2013 also in regards to at least

16 letting some people know.

17 Q. Okay. And then for the photo ID portion of the

18 training, was that something that the Wake

19 County Board of Elections developed that

20 training on its own or did you get instruction

21 from the State Board of Elections?

22 A. We got instruction from the State Board. We

23 had a form from the State Board and then what

24 we did is we took the wording that was given

25 and during early voting, we had a sign made

30

1 that was placed in front of every single laptop

2 where a voter would come in and check in. That

3 way all the staff had to do is look down and

4 read verbatim exactly what they were supposed

5 to say about ID being needed.

6 On election day, that same verbiage was

7 placed by every check-in station and we could

8 have three to four check-in stations at a

9 precinct depending on the number of voters in

10 that precinct.

11 Q. And what were -- I'm not asking for the exact

12 verbiage, but what were the precinct officials

13 supposed to ask?

14 A. Exactly what was on the sheet.

15 Q. What was that? I'm not asking for the exact

16 but just to your best recall.

17 A. It was is educational to inform them that

18 beginning in 2016, photo ID would be required.

19 Do you have photo ID? But that is not verbatim

20 what it said.

21 Q. That's fine.

22 Were precinct officials instructed to

23 ask for -- to look at the photo ID?

24 A. Our comments were most people -- and I watched

25 this at the early voting site -- they came in

31

1 with their ID out.2 Q. But my question was were precinct officials3 instructed to ask to see a copy --4 A. No.5 Q. -- of the --6 A. No.7 Q. I'm sorry. Just in general, wait until I8 finish my question and then answer. All right.9 Thank you.

10 Were precinct officials trained as to11 whether an ID would pass the reasonable12 resemblance test?13 A. They were not trained. It's not a requirement14 at this time.15 Q. So if a person had an ID that had a photo of16 them with their married name on it, like a17 North Carolina driver's license with their18 married name but on the voter rolls they were19 listed under their maiden name, were precinct20 officials at all trained on whether that ID21 would be acceptable in the 2016 election?22 A. We have not received any direction from the23 State Board of Elections on exactly what will24 take place in 2016. So, no, they were not25 trained.

32

1 Q. So all they were trained on was what -- to ask2 whether or not the voter had a photo ID?3 A. Correct.4 Q. Not whether that ID would actually be5 acceptable in the 2016 elections?6 A. That is correct. We do not know at this time7 what the State Board will direct.8 Q. Were precinct officials at all instructed on9 asking a voter whether their photo ID would be10 expired by the 2016 election?11 A. No.12 Q. So the question was just whether you had a13 photo ID that was on the list?14 A. The question was what we were given by the15 State Board.16 Q. Got it.17 A. They were then given the sheet prepared by the18 State Board of the IDs.19 Q. Okay.20 A. And I believe the State Board number was on21 there if any voter had questions.22 Q. Okay. Now, if the court issues a preliminary23 injunction on HB 589 and -- for the general24 2014 election, Wake County Board will have to25 train officials on how election laws were prior

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1 to HB 589?2 A. That is correct.3 Q. Would Wake County be able to handle that?4 A. We start training in August, so all of our5 materials at this time are for the current law.6 And with the number of precinct officials that7 we have -- and please understand, we have a8 large number of new officials -- Wake County9 adheres to the law.10 Q. So if the court said you had to train people11 under pre-HB 589 election laws, you would be12 able to do it?13 A. We would have to do it, but we would have to14 get more resources.15 Q. I'm going to switch topics a little. Are you16 okay to keep going --17 A. Uh-huh.18 Q. -- or do you need a break? Okay.19 Paragraph 6 of your declaration, which20 starts at the bottom -- actually, it's still21 paragraph 6 but I'm referring to the paragraph22 at the bottom of page 4 that starts "The Wake23 County Board of Elections budget."24 A. Uh-huh.25 Q. Now, this is about early voting, one-stop

34

1 voting. Prior to HB 589, how many days were

2 there for one-stop early voting?

3 A. In our office, 17.

4 Q. And then after HB 589 in Wake County, how many

5 days of one-stop voting are there?

6 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

7 That means I think the question is

8 confusing, but you can answer it if you want

9 to. I mean, you can answer it. I can't tell

10 you not to answer the question, but I didn't

11 like the way the question is --

12 THE WITNESS: Let's repeat it then to

13 make sure I understand what you're saying.

14 BY MS. WU:

15 Q. Of course. After HB 589 starting in

16 January 1st, 2014, how many days of one-stop

17 voting does Wake County have?

18 A. In our office, 10.

19 Q. Pre-HB 589 and post HB 589 -- sorry, strike

20 that.

21 Do you know what the cumulative hours

22 requirement is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is it?

25 A. Same -- same number of hours offered, whether

35

1 it be Board of Elections office and additional

2 sites, as the equivalent election in 2010.

3 Q. So to clarify, that means the May 2014 primary,

4 2014 had to have the same number of hours as

5 Wake County did in the May 2010 primary

6 election?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And did Wake County comply with that cumulative

9 hours requirement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And how did Wake County go about doing that?

12 Did you have extended hours at existing -- at

13 locations that you had in the 2010 primary or

14 did you open new locations?

15 A. That is a board decision on the locations, the

16 dates and the times. We met the requirement.

17 To you, May might be just a little

18 while ago. To me, I'm concentrated on two

19 weeks from now when I have an election.

20 So you can go on my website and get

21 that. I cannot give you a definitive.

22 Q. So you have no idea sitting here today how Wake

23 County Board of Elections met the cumulative

24 hours requirement?

25 A. We had the same number of sites as we had in

36

1 the 2010 primary.2 Q. Okay. So you had the same number of sites.3 Does that mean you had to have extended hours4 at those sites?5 A. Generally we did not open our additional sites6 until after the Board of Elections had been7 open. They were open nine days, I believe, in8 2010 primary. They were open ten days or they9 will be open ten days.10 Wake County rarely opens the additional11 sites the first day of early voting. That12 would be the best way to say that.13 Q. Okay. So I'm a little confused by your14 response and it might just be we're talking15 past each other, but for the May 2014 primary,16 did Wake County Board of Elections have the17 same number of sites open for one-stop voting?18 A. Correct.19 Q. Yes?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Does that mean that they had to have those22 locations open for extended hours to meet the23 cumulative hours requirement?24 A. What do you mean by extended hours?25 Q. Well, if you have, let's say, ten locations

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1 open for one-stop voting in 2010, correct --2 just let me walk you through this hypothetical.3 If you had ten locations in Wake County4 for 2010 for one-stop voting and then in 20145 you had the same number of locations, ten in6 Wake County, but in 2010 you had it open for7 17 days and in 2014 you had it open for ten8 days but you needed the same number of hours,9 did you meet that requirement by having those10 locations open for a longer number of hours?11 MR. FARR: I have to object to the form12 of that question.13 You can answer it.14 THE WITNESS: I don't think you're15 understanding what I'm saying.16 BY MS. WU:17 Q. Okay. Then try and explain it to me.18 A. The additional early voting sites were never19 open for 17 days.20 Q. So how did it work in 2010?21 A. They were not open for 17 days.22 Q. How many days were they open for?23 A. I cannot remember right now. Generally they24 did not open the same day as the Board of25 Elections office opened. The statute is clear:

38

1 When the board of elections, it opens on that

2 Thursday during normal business hours. The

3 additional sites were not open that same.

4 Q. I think I understand what you're saying. You

5 said -- so you had the same number of sites but

6 some of those sites would not be open on

7 certain days?

8 A. Or all.

9 Q. Or at all. And then now in 2014 they might

10 have been open for more days?

11 A. They were all open the same number of days and

12 the same hours.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. For 2014. I'm not referring back to 2010.

15 Q. I got it.

16 What was the exact number of hours that

17 you had for one-stop voting in 2014?

18 A. I can't give you a number. I know we met it.

19 Q. So in your declaration -- this is still

20 paragraph 16 at the bottom of page 4 --

21 A. Paragraph 6.

22 Q. Yeah, at the bottom of page 4. Are you there?

23 A. Yeah. You said 16.

24 Q. I'm sorry.

25 For one-stop -- you say for the

39

1 one-stop period to be extended to 17 days would

2 create a financial hardship for the counties.

3 What do you mean by that?

4 A. 2014 budget is passed. We would have to get

5 additional resources to open the additional

6 hours.

7 My board has already adopted a plan of

8 implementation for November 2014. It met the

9 budget that it requested.

10 Q. But there aren't additional hours under the

11 cumulative hours requirement; isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. There's one or two. Yes, there is.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. In our office.

16 Q. How many hours?

17 A. That information will be on our website and in

18 the minutes.

19 Q. But you don't know sitting here how many hours?

20 A. No, I do not. The board met on that last week.

21 Q. How much additional -- how much additional

22 finances are you going to have to expend to

23 keep those -- to keep your office open for

24 those --

25 A. That is something I'd have to research.

40

1 Q. So sitting here today you have no idea?

2 A. I'm not going to give numbers unless I have a

3 sufficient time to look at everything that is

4 involved.

5 Q. And going back to that same statement, you

6 said, you know, for the one-stop period to be

7 extended to 17 days would create financial

8 hardship for the counties; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You've only served on the Wake County Board of

11 Elections; isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What's your basis for asserting that it will

14 create a financial hardship for any other

15 county in the state?

16 A. County directors talk: How much did you ask,

17 what is your board doing.

18 There's been a lot of media attention

19 as county boards do early voting sites. The

20 State Board says the plans have to be in by

21 July 31st, so everyone is meeting that deadline

22 now with their boards meeting. So you get an

23 idea. Budgets have passed.

24 Q. So who specifically have you talked to from

25 other counties?

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1 A. I talk to directors all the time.

2 Q. Who specifically?

3 A. I can't give you any specifics exactly.

4 Q. Are you aware that other county board of

5 elections directors have testified in this case

6 that the cutting back of early voting would not

7 increase or decrease the amount spent for

8 one-stop voting?

9 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

10 THE WITNESS: No.

11 BY MS. WU:

12 Q. Did you review any other budgets for any other

13 county?

14 A. No. We talk about budgets.

15 Q. But you don't remember who you talked to?

16 A. After 23 years in this position, directors call

17 me all the time for a lot of various questions,

18 what are you doing, got a better way of doing

19 this. I do not keep a log of my phone calls.

20 Q. You don't remember any conversations you had

21 with any county directors about the budget?

22 A. No. My understanding is the budgets were done

23 on 10 days.

24 Q. Turning back to paragraph 5, out-of-precinct

25 voting. Now, just stepping back generally, can

42

1 you describe the process for me prior to

2 HB 589, what would happen if a person showed up

3 at a precinct that was not registered in that

4 precinct? What would be the process for them

5 to vote a provisional ballot?

6 A. As with any person walking into a polling place

7 on election day, they go to the check-in table.

8 They state their name and address, primary,

9 they state their party.

10 The precinct official looks them up in

11 the poll book for that precinct. If that

12 person is not in the poll book, they are sent

13 to the help table. The help table has in their

14 laptop the database of every single registered

15 voter in the county.

16 They could find that person registered,

17 verify that that person did not move, that the

18 address they're giving is still where they

19 live, and inform that voter where their name

20 would appear on the books.

21 They would encourage the voter to go to

22 that precinct and vote because they would then

23 be entitled to vote a ballot with all contests

24 on it that they were eligible. In that same

25 database is driving instructions to that new

43

1 precinct or to the precinct that they're duly2 registered.3 If the voter says, "No, I want to vote4 here," then the voter is given the provisional5 ballot envelope, which they must complete,6 they're given the ballot for the precinct that7 they're in and they are again informed "Please8 understand by voting provisional, not all9 contests on this ballot may count because you

10 may not be entitled to vote for those11 jurisdictions."12 The voter will then go to a separate13 booth, vote the ballot, insert it and seal it14 into the envelope and give it back to the help15 table official.16 Q. And then after that process, what happens?17 A. One other thing. The voter is given the sheet18 of paper prepared by the -- drafted by the19 State Board that we print where it gives the20 information for the voter to find out the21 status of the provisional ballot.22 Q. So just to clarify, to repeat the steps, one,23 they show up and if they're not on the poll24 book, they get sent to the help desk?25 A. Correct.

44

1 Q. And then that help desk precinct official tries2 to determine what precinct they're actually3 registered in and they're encouraged to go to4 that precinct to vote?5 A. They don't try. They look right in the6 database so they know where the -- what7 precinct the voter is registered. It's right8 there in the database.9 Q. Okay. But then they are encouraged to go to10 that precinct to vote?11 A. Correct.12 Q. And if they choose not to, they vote a13 provisional ballot?14 A. That's correct.15 Q. And then what happens after the envelope goes16 into the -- the provisional ballot goes into17 the box?18 A. There's also a poll book, provisional poll19 book. At the end of the day, that is sealed.20 There's a bag --21 Q. Sure.22 A. -- for provisional envelopes.23 All secure supplies, which that would24 be one, is brought back to the Board of25 Elections Operations Center. The first thing

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1 the following day you have staff that will2 precinct by precinct reconcile the provisional3 ballot envelopes against the provisional poll4 book to verify that that reconciles. They're5 still kept by precinct.6 The next step is to go into the7 provisional module, type all the information in8 for that voter. It would be connected to the9 voter's actual voter information. That is when10 it would be determined that that voter voted11 outside their own precinct. That would go into12 another section for further review because it's13 out of precinct.14 The staff member would again look and15 see what ballot did the voter vote -- that's on16 the outside of the envelope -- what ballot17 style from the state database should the voter18 have voted. Then you have to determine what19 contests are different, what contest did that20 voter actually vote that they were not entitled21 to.22 Q. And this is all a manual process?23 A. Correct.24 Q. So it involves sort of hand counting?25 A. It involves research. Right now you're not

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1 counting anything.2 Q. Okay. Okay.3 A. You're just doing the research.4 Q. Okay.5 A. You have to look at what -- what Congressional6 District they were in, what state Senate7 District they were in, what State House8 District they were in, what Superior Court9 District they were in. What of those districts10 were on their ballot and what was the district11 number.12 Then you have a sample ballot of what13 they should have voted if they voted in their14 correct precinct and you have to compare the15 two. So if they were in Congressional 2 but16 where they voted was Congressional 4, then that17 vote would not count for the voter.18 All of that information is then brought19 to our board because they are the only ones20 that can accept or deny the provisional21 ballots. Any of the out-of-precinct would have22 to be then partially hand counted.23 MR. FARR: Can I ask you a question.24 Do you know how much longer you're going to25 have? If you're going to go for another hour,

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1 we're going to need to take a break.2 MS. WU: I'm not going to take an hour.3 MR. FARR: Cherie, do you need to take4 a break?5 THE WITNESS: I'm okay.6 MR. DEVANEY: I'm sorry. This is John7 Devaney on the line. I just wanted to announce8 that I was here. I represent Duke intervenors.9 I'll probably have five to ten minutes worth of10 questions. I just wanted to announce that.11 Thank you.12 BY MS. WU:13 Q. So then we just went through the pre-HB 58914 process. In the post HB 589 process, it's my15 understanding that out-of-precinct ballots that16 are cast are no longer counted; is that17 correct?18 A. From the latest memo or one of the memos we19 received from the State Board, if it's an20 unreported-move voter --21 Q. Okay. So aside --22 MR. FARR: Can she finish her answer.23 BY MS. WU:24 Q. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.25 A. If an unreported-move voter goes to their old

48

1 precinct and says "I moved," again, that same2 process would transpire at the help table:3 "Let me look up your new address, I'll tell you4 where you vote."5 If they do not want to vote or go to6 their new precinct, they have to be offered the7 provisional ballot. You never deny anyone the8 right to vote. You explain the situation.9 Q. Okay.10 A. In this situation because, in essence, they are11 voting out of precinct because they have moved12 more than 30 days, then, yes, they are voting13 out of precinct, but the congressional race14 would count.15 Q. But that counts?16 A. Yes.17 Q. So for anyone other than the unreported-move18 voter who votes out of precinct, those would19 not be counted, correct?20 A. That is my understanding for the law, yes.21 Q. But they would still be offered -- they would22 still be directed to the help desk, correct, if23 they showed up in the wrong precinct?24 A. If they are not in the poll book for that25 precinct, they are directed to the help table

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1 in all situations.2 Q. And if they choose not to go to their correct3 precinct, they would still be offered a4 provisional ballot; is that correct?5 A. With the understanding to let them know it6 would not count.7 Q. But they would still -- go ahead.8 A. Thank you. Unless it's an unreported move.9 Q. So they would still be offered a provisional

10 ballot to vote?11 A. Correct.12 Q. And they could go vote in the voter booth13 enclosure?14 A. Correct.15 Q. And that provisional ballot would still go into16 that sealed bag?17 A. Yes.18 Q. And that provisional ballot would go with all19 other provisional ballots back to the Wake20 County Board of Elections' office; is that21 correct?22 A. The operations center.23 Q. The operations center, sorry.24 And you would still have to25 determine -- go through that research process;

50

1 is that correct?

2 A. That is correct. To the Board of Elections, it

3 is still just a provisional ballot.

4 Q. Right. And then at what point -- and then you

5 would recommend -- you would give those

6 provisional ballots to the Board of Elections

7 to determine whether that out-of-precinct

8 provisional ballot could be counted or not?

9 A. We do not recommend.

10 Q. Okay. But it would go to the County Board of

11 Elections?

12 A. It is a decision of the county board, correct.

13 Q. So they would still get that out-of-precinct

14 provisional ballot that was cast?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. The only change in the process is that the

17 county board would determine under HB 589 that

18 it was not -- that they could not count that

19 vote; is that correct?

20 A. Repeat that, please.

21 Q. Sorry. The only difference is that the county

22 board of elections, once they receive that

23 provisional ballot, would determine that that

24 vote could not count for those districts?

25 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

51

1 MR. WARREN: Do you understand what2 she's asking?3 MR. FARR: My objection would be4 receive the ballot.5 THE WITNESS: There is a ballot sealed6 in an envelope. All of the research still has7 to be done on that ballot.8 BY MS. WU:9 Q. Okay.10 A. The difference is because the law has changed,11 if that voter voted out of precinct, it would12 be in a separate bin. And I refer to it as a13 bin because we categorize everything. We have14 thousands. So this would be in a "voter voted15 out of precinct."16 So you don't -- you still have17 research, but you do not have to determine the18 difference. You don't have to see that ballot19 that they voted versus the ballot they should20 have voted and go through all of that -- those21 steps. That's eliminated.22 Q. So the research happens but it goes into the23 bin -- a separate bin now?24 A. For out of precinct.25 Q. Does that bin still go to the county board?

52

1 A. The county board is the only one that has the

2 authority to approve or disapprove any ballot,

3 yes.

4 Q. So they would still have to review the ballot?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. FARR: Objection to form.

7 BY MS. WU:

8 Q. Ms. Poucher, do you know what the United States

9 Election Assistance Commission is?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is it?

12 A. The Election Assistance Commission.

13 Q. What does it do?

14 A. I'm not going to give a definition because I

15 don't know a sufficient amount of what it is to

16 state a good answer.

17 Q. So you don't even know in general what they do?

18 A. They oversee. I know they do a testing and

19 certification for election equipment and

20 software. They have quick guides.

21 Q. Have you ever testified in front of the

22 United States Election Assistance Commission?

23 A. Years ago.

24 Q. When? Do you know?

25 A. It's been a long time ago.

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1 Q. If I represented to you it was in 2005, does

2 that sound --

3 A. If you say so.

4 Q. Do you remember what the nature of that

5 testimony or hearing was about?

6 A. Not that one because there were others that I

7 have different task force -- force -- task

8 forces that I have been involved with on a

9 national level.

10 Q. Sure. Do you remember submitting written

11 testimony as part of that hearing?

12 A. I have submitted testimony in regards to

13 several hearings, but if you say so, but I do

14 not recall.

15 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you what will be

16 marked as Exhibit 207.

17 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiff's Exhibit 207 was

18 marked for identification.)

19 BY MS. WU:

20 Q. Do you see the title --

21 MR. FARR: I would like to suggest that

22 we take a break so she can read this testimony

23 before we have further questions on it.

24 MS. WU: That's fine. I want to note

25 for the record the title of the document is

54

1 Written Comments, Cherie Poucher, Director of

2 Elections, Wake County, North Carolina,

3 Implementation and Use of Provisional Voting.

4 And we can go off the record so you can

5 have a chance to review it and take a break.

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at

7 1:04 p.m.

8 (Brief Recess.)

9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On back on record at

10 1:18 p.m.

11 MR. FARR: Thank you, Jodi. I

12 appreciate you giving me a chance to ask this

13 question.

14 MS. WU: Sure.

15 MR. FARR: We notice that there were no

16 Bate stamp numbers on this document and we

17 wanted to know if you were aware of whether

18 this document was produced to the defendants

19 prior to this deposition.

20 MS. WU: This is a publicly available

21 document that we located off the internet.

22 MR. FARR: Was it produced?

23 MS. WU: It was not.

24 MR. FARR: Okay. Thank you.

25 MS. WU: Yep, no problem.

55

1 MR. FARR: You may continue.2 MR. WARREN: Are you ready?3 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I wrote4 it.5 MR. FARR: Well, just let Jodi ask you6 questions.7 BY MS. WU:8 Q. Ms. Poucher, have you had a chance to review9 the testimony, the document in front of you?10 MR. FARR: Exhibit 207.11 BY MS. WU:12 Q. Yes.13 A. Yes.14 Q. And what is it?15 A. As the title says, it's written comments by me16 for the implementation and use of provisional17 voting.18 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, is this a19 true and accurate representation of the written20 comments you submitted to the U.S. Election21 Assistance Commission?22 A. I cannot say. I'm not sure when this was23 written and it's a long time ago. So I would24 prefer -- I don't know. I know I gave25 statements. I know North Carolina was one of

56

1 the first to offer provisional voting.

2 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that it's not

3 a true and accurate representation of the

4 statements you provided to the U.S. Election

5 Assistance Commission?

6 A. If you say so.

7 Q. Now, in paragraph 1, as you see on the first

8 page, you stated in your written comments to

9 the United States Election Assistance

10 Commission, quote:

11 "Provisional voting provides a

12 mechanism to ensure that all citizens

13 have a chance to vote and at the same

14 time maintains the integrity of the

15 election process."

16 Is that correct?

17 A. That's what it states here in writing, yes.

18 Q. And then moving down to the fourth paragraph --

19 let me know when you're there -- you also

20 state, quote:

21 "The voters appreciated the

22 fact that they were allowed to vote

23 and the precinct officials appreciated

24 the fact that they no longer had to

25 tell a person that they could not vote

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1 in that precinct. It alleviated angry

2 responses to the official and

3 decreased the number of calls into it

4 the Board of Elections office," end quote.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. That's what it states, yes.

7 Q. Now, flipping to page 2, you provided some

8 numbers for election years from 1998, 2000,

9 2002 and 2004 for provisional ballots that were

10 counted. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 2004, you listed the number of provisional

13 ballots counted as over 10,000, it's

14 specifically 10,915; is that correct?

15 A. That's what it states, yes.

16 Q. To the best of your knowledge, do you know if

17 after 2004 that number stayed the same,

18 increased, decreased, for Wake County?

19 A. For Wake County, it began going down.

20 Q. So, for example, in the 2012 election, do you

21 know approximately how many ballots were cast

22 provisionally?

23 A. I know we can get that information from the

24 State Board, but number-wise no.

25 Q. Do you know -- do you have any explanation for

58

1 why the number of provisional ballots

2 decreased?

3 A. The use of the laptop with all of the data in

4 the laptop for the precinct official to let the

5 voter know and to be able to get them a

6 transfer or let them -- the most of what we

7 call an unreported move is the voter that shows

8 up at their new precinct, they've moved, they

9 haven't let us know.

10 They show up at the correct place but

11 they're not in the poll book because they did

12 not update their address with us.

13 That help table official can look them

14 up, "Oh, yes, you are registered," and the

15 person can say, "Yes, I moved."

16 Q. And the laptop allowed the help desk official?

17 A. The laptop can say, okay, we have your

18 registration information, what is your new

19 address.

20 Q. Got it. Any other reasons why provisional

21 ballots might have decreased?

22 A. We do a lot of press releases in regards to

23 constantly updating your address.

24 Q. Do you think that same-day registration had any

25 impact on decreasing the amount of provisional

59

1 ballots that were cast in Wake County?2 A. I wouldn't want to give an opinion on that.3 Q. So at the bottom of that table on page 2 you4 stated:5 "The majority of Wake County's6 provisional voters are unreported7 moves."8 A. Correct.9 Q. Can you just explain to me what "unreported10 moves" are?11 A. Again, it's that voter that is currently12 registered in Wake County, moved within Wake13 County but did not notify the Board of14 Elections by the 25-day deadline and showed up15 at the polling place for their new address.16 That's an unreported move.17 Q. And that unreported mover, does he or she cast18 a provisional ballot?19 A. With the poll book, we at that time were20 allowed to vote them as a transfer voter.21 Q. What is a transfer voter?22 A. You transfer them out of one precinct into23 another.24 Q. So do they cast a regular ballot or a25 provisional ballot?

60

1 A. Regular.2 Q. Okay. What if that unreported mover shows up3 to their old precinct?4 A. Hopefully the voter would tell us they moved.5 Q. And if they tell you they moved and they are6 now technically in a new precinct, what7 happens?8 A. Then they are -- now what are you talking now9 because we're going before and after. So I10 might have misunderstood the question. I'm11 sorry.12 Q. You mean pre HB 589?13 A. Uh-huh.14 Q. Okay. So post HB 589, if an unreported mover15 shows up at their old precinct, what happens?16 A. If they inform -- when they state their name17 and address -- hopefully they would state their18 current correct address, which is not the19 address in the book -- they would be sent to20 the help table. At that time they would have21 multiple choices.22 Q. What are those choices?23 A. They could update their information on the24 Authorization to Vote. There's a section on25 the authorization, and we could physically

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1 transfer them into their new precinct on this2 piece of paper. They would go to their new3 precinct and vote a regular ballot.4 Q. And if they choose to do that transfer but then5 not go to their new precinct to vote, what6 would happen?7 A. They wouldn't be a transfer. They would --8 if -- at that time they would probably then9 state -- because I'm not in the precinct so10 this is a supposition.11 Q. Sure.12 A. If the voter says, "Well, I don't want to go to13 my new precinct," we could also tell them to go14 to the central location, which is our office.15 Q. What if they don't want to go to the central16 location?17 A. Then they are informed to vote a provisional18 ballot.19 At that time, generally what we would20 hope that the voter would do is take a Voter21 Registration Application to update their22 address after the election.23 Q. So if the unreported mover votes -- chooses to24 vote the provisional ballot in the old25 precinct, under HB 589 does that vote

62

1 eventually get counted for the races that

2 they're eligible to vote for?

3 A. That I do not remember what the last directive

4 from the State Board was. I believe there is a

5 certain situation that you would count the

6 ballot they're eligible.

7 There's a difference between someone

8 just going to a precinct and voting versus an

9 unreported move, but I don't have the memo in

10 front of me.

11 Q. What memo are you talking about?

12 A. There was a State Board memo in regards to

13 unreported moves and provisional ballots.

14 Q. Are you aware that in the May 2014 primary

15 there were 11 unreported-move voters that were

16 cast provisionally that the Wake County Board

17 decided not to count?

18 A. May --

19 Q. May 2014, this past election.

20 A. You can ask -- my Board made that decision and

21 they wrote for direction from -- they had

22 written for direction from the State Board.

23 Q. And are you aware that the State Board

24 instructed the Wake County Board that they made

25 the wrong decision in deciding not to count

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1 those 11 unreported moves cast provisionally?2 A. My understanding -- and I would -- you would3 have to check the statistics with the State4 Board -- I do not believe it was 11. I thought5 it was 4.6 MR. FARR: Can I ask a favor of7 everybody. Would you please make sure that8 counsel has finished her question.9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.10 MR. FARR: And also Cherie sometimes11 stops in the middle of her answer, so if you12 make sure she's finished her answer, I'd13 appreciate it.14 MS. WU: Of course.15 BY MS. WU:16 Q. So regardless whether it was 4 or 11, you do17 recall that the State Board of Elections18 instructed the Wake County Board that they had19 made an error in not counting those20 unreported-move voters who cast provisional21 ballots?22 A. I received a copy of that letter and my board23 received a copy, yes.24 Q. And sitting here today, as the director of the25 Wake County Board of Elections, you cannot tell

64

1 me if an unreported-move voter who votes in

2 their old precinct would be able to cast a

3 provisional ballot that would be counted?

4 A. I have -- I have it in the office. And, again,

5 as I prepare for the July 15th, I will reread

6 it, but I have been involved in getting

7 everything ready and then I keep that in a

8 separate pile to review.

9 I've had several board meetings since

10 that time, but that will be made available to

11 my board the day we have the provisionals.

12 Q. So my question was: Sitting here today, you

13 cannot tell me one way or the other whether

14 those unreported-move voters that cast

15 provisional ballots in their old precinct

16 should be counted or not?

17 A. My understanding is if the unreported move does

18 not want to go to the new precinct, you count

19 what they're eligible to count -- or eligible

20 to vote. I'm sorry.

21 Q. Has Wake County ever missed or had missed -- I

22 guess -- going back to your declaration which

23 is Exhibit 206, this is paragraph 5 on page 3.

24 It's actually the last sentence.

25 And it's my understanding that the

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1 county board of elections has to go through the2 process of evaluating and counting provisional3 ballots and they either have seven or ten days4 following the election; is that correct?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Depending on what kind of election it is?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Has the Wake County Board of Elections ever9 missed the seven- or ten-day window for10 counting provisional ballots?11 A. I believe so, but I cannot remember the date.12 Q. You don't remember the year of the election?13 A. No. I can give you circumstances of how the14 board handles something like that.15 Q. Sure. Go ahead.16 A. The statute says you must convene at17 11 o'clock -- it used to be the Tuesday. If we18 were not done with the hand-counting or the19 replication of the out-of-precinct ballots,20 then the Board would meet at 11:00 to convene21 the canvass and then recess until it was done.22 Q. So you would still get through the process of23 counting the provisional ballots?24 A. Correct.25 Q. And then reconvene?

66

1 A. Yes.2 Q. Okay. Turning back to Exhibit 207, the written3 comments that you submitted to the4 United States Election Assistance Commission,5 turning to page 4, you concluded your6 statements by stating, quote:7 "The provisional ballot is a8 wonderful tool allowing all citizens9 who feel they are eligible to vote to10 cast a ballot. It places the burden11 of determining voter eligibility on12 the Boards of Election who have at13 hand all the information necessary to14 make a decision.15 "The voter is not disenfranchised16 and the local precinct official does17 not have the final say. Standardization18 of the use and implementation of the19 provisional ballot in each state should20 be our goal," end quote.21 That was your statement?22 A. As written here, yes.23 Q. Just a couple more questions.24 Since HB 589 has passed, have you25 received any calls from people in Wake County

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1 about early voting either asking questions2 about the shortened time period or expressing3 any sort of opinion about the shortened time4 period?5 A. The Board held a meeting last week, I believe6 it was, June 24th because it was the first7 meeting on absentee for the second primary, and8 citizens were notified that if they had any9 comments, written or oral, regarding early10 voting, the Board would hear those comments at11 the meeting.12 It wasn't a public hearing. It was13 more of a work session where citizens were able14 to come and give their opinions on locations15 and times.16 Q. And did any citizens choose to participate in17 that process?18 A. We had over a hundred people in attendance.19 And I cannot give you an exact number of people20 that spoke, but the chair allowed anybody in21 attendance that wanted to speak the opportunity22 to do so.23 Q. And can you give me a sense of what those24 comments were of people who spoke?25 A. Hours and locations.

68

1 Q. And what were their opinions of the hours and

2 locations?

3 A. Most of the hours centered around Sunday

4 voting, and the sites vary depending on who the

5 speaker was and the location in the county they

6 live. Of course, everyone would like one right

7 on their corner.

8 Q. Of course.

9 A. But you had a large contingent of voters who

10 requested sites at Chavis and NC State. You

11 had another group who asked for surrounding

12 county to have it because that's where the

13 growth is.

14 So the Board took all of the comments

15 into consideration.

16 Q. What were the opinions expressed about Sunday

17 voting?

18 A. That depended on who the speaker was.

19 Q. Can you give me an example?

20 A. Some of the speakers felt it was important to

21 continue Sunday -- to have Sunday -- or to

22 allow Sunday voting, I should say, and others

23 felt that Sunday was the Sabbath and there

24 should not be Sunday voting, so it was mixed.

25 MS. WU: I may be done, but if we could

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1 take a brief break just so we can confer.

2 MR. FARR: Sure.

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at

4 1:37 p.m.

5 (Brief Recess.)

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

7 1:47 p.m.

8 MS. WU: I have no further questions.

9 I believe John, who's on the phone, has a

10 couple questions.

11 EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. DEVANEY:

13 Q. Hello, Ms. Poucher. How are you?

14 A. Fine, thank you.

15 Q. I trust you can hear me okay.

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 Q. Just so you know, I represent the Duke

18 intervenors in this case, and I'm with the law

19 firm Perkins Coie, and I am sitting in my desk

20 here in 98 degree Washington, DC.

21 A. Fortunately we're in air-conditioning.

22 Q. It's a little hard to hear over the phone so I

23 trust that if I ask a question or two that's

24 already been asked that your counsel will let

25 me know that.

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1 And what I would like to do,2 Ms. Poucher, is focus primarily on your3 declaration. Do you have that in front of you?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Would you please go to paragraph 4.6 A. Yes.7 Q. You state there in the first sentence that8 during your 23 years service as director of9 Wake County Board of Elections, the Board of10 Elections instituted a voter registration drive11 each fall in high schools. Do you see that?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Could you please describe for me what those14 election or voter registration drives consisted15 of?16 A. I believe that was asked and answered.17 MR. FARR: It was.18 BY MR. DEVANEY:19 Q. What was your role in those -- in those drives?20 A. I was the conduit to meet with the head of the21 social studies and my staff to pretty much22 explain the guidelines of registering to vote,23 and they explained to us the listing that they24 would use in regards to the students who would25 be 18 by the next election and were citizens.

71

1 That was a list that we would not have been

2 entitled to because they're students.

3 Q. And you go on to say -- I'm sorry, were you

4 done?

5 A. At that point, my staff took over for working

6 with the school social study teachers when

7 their forms were ready to be picked up.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you.

9 And then you go on to say here that the

10 school with the highest percentage of eligible

11 voters who registered received recognition.

12 Was that something that was done

13 annually?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And how did you all determine which school had

16 the highest percentage and would be worthy of

17 that recognition?

18 A. Each school itself knew the number of students

19 that would have been eligible to register, they

20 then knew the number that did register, and

21 then through that determined the percentage and

22 our staff would look to see who had the highest

23 percentage.

24 Q. Were you at all involved in coming up with this

25 idea of recognizing schools?

72

1 A. No, I was not. We held voter registration

2 drives prior to that time, but my board chair

3 at the time, Dr. John Gilbert, thought it might

4 be even more successful to register

5 18-year-olds if we had some kind of contest, so

6 that's when the contest, among all the Wake

7 County high schools, was implemented.

8 Q. Do you believe that the contest was effective?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why?

11 A. Because we were able to register students that

12 would be 18 by the November election or October

13 election prior to a municipal.

14 Q. All right. You go on in the next sentence:

15 "This method of registering

16 voters (who would be 18 by the next

17 election) was very successful."

18 Can you explain what you mean by that

19 statement?

20 A. When you can have such a high percentage of

21 high school students register to vote, that is

22 successful.

23 Q. And do you have a memory as you sit there today

24 as to any quantification of the success, like

25 how registration was increased, by what

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1 percentage or any quantitative data like that?

2 A. No, I do not.

3 Q. At one point were you aware of how this program

4 had affected registration among younger voters?

5 A. Percentage-wise, no, sir.

6 Q. Okay. But it's your general impression that

7 the program was successful and that it

8 increased the registration of younger voters;

9 is that right?

10 A. Yes, because basically the program started once

11 school started in August and so you knew if it

12 was in October or November election, you had

13 the opportunity to register them and then they

14 could hopefully vote in the very near future.

15 Q. Ms. Poucher, how long was this program in place

16 to your knowledge?

17 A. It's still in place in Wake County.

18 Q. Okay. You go on to say here that the

19 pre-registration of 16- and 17-year-olds

20 creates confusion among the 16- and

21 17-year-olds who then thought he/she was

22 registered and could vote.

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me ask you: Have you already been asked

74

1 about this sentence --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- that you've got in here?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. You were asked about it?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you a question and if

8 you already answered it you all can let me

9 know, but do you have specific examples of

10 confusion that was created among any specific

11 16- and 17-year-olds?

12 A. I answered that as generally as I -- or as

13 specifically as I could, which would be

14 generally, and that would be -- excuse me for

15 answering that way, but it's -- I can't give

16 names, addresses and dates, but from anyone who

17 had registered at 16 or 17 and within a few

18 months did not get a voter card and then would

19 call our office finding out why they hadn't

20 gotten a voter card yet.

21 Q. Do you have any sense of how often that

22 occurred?

23 A. No, sir, because with the size and number of

24 voters in Wake County, I have a large number of

25 staff that answers the telephone and I

75

1 don't -- I don't track that.2 Q. Do you know if there are any records reflecting3 the extent to which this confusion you talk4 about actually existed?5 A. No, sir.6 Q. And the next sentence speaks about the7 administrative cost that were increased through8 this pre-registration.9 Do you have any quantification of what10 those costs were that -- that were caused by11 this program?12 A. I believe that was answered before, but I can13 answer it again.14 Q. Well, if you'll indulge me, I would appreciate15 that.16 A. It is basically the fact that you're going17 through a process of doing the data entry on18 the applicant; then that information is held in19 the State Board file. I cannot remember if20 through the State Board file some mailing is21 done, that part I cannot remember.22 When the person is about to reach 18,23 that information is again sent back to the24 State Board where we have to review it again.25 It goes into the voter registration record as

76

1 pending new and another voter -- and a voter2 card would be mailed and it would go through3 the list maintenance procedures by the State4 Board.5 Q. Do you have any specific quantification of what6 the additional costs were to complete that7 process?8 A. As I had stated before, when any of this -- any9 envelope or ID cards or confirmations come10 back, especially with the verification11 mailings, it doesn't delineate what that12 mailing is for except that it is an address13 verification.14 Q. Focusing still on this paragraph of your15 declaration, Ms. Poucher, am I right that in16 the beginning of paragraph 4 you're speaking17 about voter registration drives for18 17-year-olds who are going to be 18 in the next19 election and then you switch over to this20 pre-registration program that also includes21 16-year-olds? I just want to make sure I'm22 understanding this paragraph correctly.23 A. That is correct.24 Q. And am I right that Wake County no longer has25 the program for pre-registration of 16- or

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1 17-year-olds?2 A. That is correct. Once the law changed, we3 would not be allowed to do so.4 Q. And how long did the county have that5 pre-registration program in place?6 A. From the time we were directed to do so by the7 statute and by the State Board of Elections.8 The one thing I do want to state in9 response to the last question, and that is, of10 course, before any primary election, a11 17-year-old is allowed to register if they will12 be 18 by the November election and they would13 be allowed to participate in the primary.14 Q. All right. Thanks for that clarification.15 Now, with respect to this16 pre-registration program that no longer exists,17 did it increase voter registration and18 participation among young voters in your view?19 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.20 BY MR. DEVANEY:21 Q. You can answer.22 A. I would not have those statistics, sir.23 Q. Do you have an impression if not statistics?24 A. No, sir, because basically my -- I am concerned25 about the number of voters. I don't break them

78

1 down into any category.2 Q. Okay. So I take it, just to be clear, that3 you've not done any -- any analysis of what4 effect on registration and voter participation5 this pre-registration program had; is that6 right?7 A. That is correct.8 Q. Okay. Just a few more questions and we'll be9 done. Bear with me one second here, please.10 Still focusing on paragraph 4 of your11 declaration, you state in the third to last12 sentence:13 "In many instances, the pre-14 registered voter had moved (and the15 verification mailing was returned) or16 the pre-registered voter was at17 college and registered in another18 county or state."19 Similar to my prior questions, do you20 have any quantification of this, Ms. Poucher,21 as to how many instances on which this22 occurred?23 A. No, sir, I do not have any information on24 statistics. That could be something you might25 be able to have the State Board determine

79

1 through their software, but I would not.2 Q. Okay. So you just don't know how often this3 occurred?4 A. Correct.5 Q. And I take it for the next sentence which says:6 "The county board would then have7 to send a second mailing to the person8 which again would have been returned9 undeliverable."10 You don't have an understanding of how11 often that occurred?12 A. We don't differentiate between any of the13 different mailings. For a verification mailing14 that is mailed out, as I said before, we do not15 know if it's the first verification, the second16 verification, if it's asking for information,17 et cetera.18 Q. Okay. So to be clear, with respect to this19 pre-registration program, to the extent second20 mailings were sent and/or returned as21 undeliverable, you don't have the information22 to know how many involved actually the23 pre-registration program?24 A. That is correct.25 Q. Okay. That's all I have. Thank you.

80

1 A. Thank you.

2 MR. FARR: I have a few questions.

3 EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. FARR:

5 Q. Ms. Poucher, my name is Tom Farr.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We know each other, do we not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I have a couple of questions I would like to

10 ask you to clarify a few things.

11 Counsel for the NAACP was asking you

12 some questions about how out-of-precinct

13 voters' ballots were handled post 589 --

14 HB 589. Do you recall those questions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And she asked you whether the State Board would

17 still need to review the ballots of

18 out-of-precinct voters. Do you recall that

19 question?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Okay. Do you want to clarify exactly what the

22 county board will now look at for

23 out-of-precinct voters.

24 A. The county board does not look at the actual

25 ballot. They look at the ballot -- the

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81

1 provisional ballot envelope to make that

2 determination. Then once the determination is

3 made of do you count or not count, at that time

4 the envelope itself would be opened.

5 Q. Okay. All right. Thanks.

6 Now I want to just ask you a couple

7 questions about Exhibit 207.

8 And, Ms. Poucher, you testified that

9 you and I met before this deposition; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you and I discuss Exhibit 207 when you and

13 I met two days ago, I guess it was?

14 A. 207, no, sir.

15 Q. Okay. Do you recall the last time you saw

16 Exhibit 207?

17 A. Probably after it was written.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And I'm not sure from here. I can assume when

20 it was written, and that was many years ago.

21 Q. And you recall that counsel for the NAACP, I

22 believe they represented that it was her

23 understanding this was prepared in 2005. Do

24 you recall that?

25 A. That's what was stated, yes.

82

1 Q. Let's turn to paragraph 4.2 A. Yes.3 Q. Do you see the third paragraph there?4 A. The third paragraph, yes.5 Q. I'm going to read it into the record.6 MS. WU: You're on page --7 MR. PETERS: I think he meant page 4.8 BY MR. FARR:9 Q. I'm on page 4, the third paragraph. You see10 where it says:11 "Because of the Supreme Court12 ruling, Senate Bill 133 has been13 filed in the North Carolina General14 Assembly to clarify the legislative15 intent that out-of-precinct provisional16 ballots be counted for all contests for17 which the voter was eligible to vote."18 Do you see that?19 A. Yes.20 Q. What Supreme Court case were you referring to21 there? Do you remember?22 A. This involved the contest -- and I believe I've23 got that written in here too -- the contest for24 state superintendent of public instruction and25 there was a dispute in regards to here where it

83

1 stated out of precinct at that time we referred2 to as more or less unreported move, and there3 was an extensive lawsuit in regards to those4 provisional ballots and that's where the bill5 was filed.6 Q. Okay. Do you recall that in the Supreme Court7 case the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled8 that what we've described as out-of-precinct9 provisional ballots should not be counted?10 MS. WU: Objection to form.11 BY MR. FARR:12 Q. Do you recall that?13 A. The Supreme Court, let's see.14 Q. If you don't recall, that's fine.15 A. No, I don't. Oh, except it says it here so16 somewhere.17 Q. Okay. The document speaks for itself.18 So when you wrote this statement, the19 statute to clarify legislative intent about20 out-of-precinct provisional ballots had been21 filed in the North Carolina General Assembly.22 Is that what your statement says?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Does the statement say that that statute had25 been passed at the time you prepared this

84

1 statement?

2 A. No.

3 MR. FARR: That's all I have.

4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

5 deposition of Ms. Cherie Poucher. Time going

6 off record is 2:06 p.m.

7 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]

8 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 2:06 P.M.]

9

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85

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, CHERIE POUCHER, declare under the penalties

4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have

5 read the foregoing 84 pages, which contain a correct

6 transcription of answers made by me to the questions

7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or

8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached

9 hereto, if any.

10 Signed this the day of , 2014.

11

12

CHERIE POUCHER

13

14

15 State of:

16 County of:

17 Subscribed and sworn to before me

18 this day of , 2014.

19

20

21 Notary Public

22 My commission expires:

23

24

25

86

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases

3 Witness Name: CHERIE POUCHER

4 Deposition Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2014

5

6 Page/Line Reads Should Read

7 ____/____|_______________________|___________________

8 ____/____|_______________________|___________________

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23

24

25 Signature Date

87

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF WAKE )

3

4 I, DENISE MYERS BYRD, Court Reporter and Notary

5 Public, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was

6 conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony

7 appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn by me;

8 that the testimony of said witness was taken by me to the

9 best of my ability and thereafter transcribed under my

10 supervision; and that the foregoing pages, inclusive,

11 constitute a true and accurate transcription of the testimony

12 of the witness(es).

13 Before completion of the deposition, review of the

14 transcript [X] was [ ] was not requested. If requested, any

15 changes made by the deponent (and provided to the reporter)

16 during the period allowed are appended hereto.

17 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,

18 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this

19 action, and further, that I am not a relative or employee of

20 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereof, nor

21 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of said

22 action. This the 3rd day of July 2014.

23

24

Denise Myers Byrd

25 CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02

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1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

CHERIE R. POUCHER (Volume II)

2

1 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

2 CHERIE R. POUCHER

3 ___________________________________________________

4 9:11 a.m.

5 Tuesday, April 21, 2015

6 ___________________________________________________

7

POYNER SPRUILL, LLP

8

301 FAYETTEVILLE STREET

9

SUITE 1900

10

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

11

12

13

14 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS

BY: JENNIFER BASCH, ESQ.5 (Via telephone)

601 Lexington Avenue6 New York, NY 10022-4611

(212) 446-59267 jennifer.basch@kirkland.com8

ADVANCEMENT PROJECT9 BY: DENISE LIEBERMAN, ESQ.

(Via telephone)10 1220 L Street, N.W.

Suite 85011 Washington, DC 20005

(202) 728-955712 dlieberman@advancementproject.org13

Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:14

SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE15 BY: ALLISON RIGGS, ESQ.

EMILY SEAWELL, ESQ.16 1415 West Highway 54

Suite 10117 Durham, NC 27707

(919) 323-338018 allison@southerncoalition.org19

Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:20

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE21 BY: ERNEST A. McFARLAND, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.22 Washington, DC 20530

(800) 253-393123 ernest.a.mcfarland@usdoj.gov24 (Appearances continued on next page.)25

4

1 (Appearances continued.)2

3 Counsel for Plaintiff-IntervenorsLeague of Women Voters:

4

PERKINS COIE5 BY: JOSHUA L. KAUL, ESQ.

(Via telephone)6 700 Thirteenth Street, N.W.

Suite 6007 Washington, DC 20005-3960

(202) 628-62008 jkaul@perkinscoie.com9

Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina and10 Members of the State Board of Elections:11 OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART

BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.12 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 110013 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 787-970014 thomas.farr@ogletreedeakins.com15

For the Deponent:16

WAKE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE17 BY: SCOTT W. WARREN, ESQ.

301 South McDowell Street18 Raleigh, NC 27601

(919) 856-550019 swarren@co.wake.nc.us20 Reported By:21 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER22 BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR

BRENT TROUBLEFIELD, Videographer23 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 100024 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 649-999825 denise@discoverydepo.com

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5

1 I N D E X2 PAGE3 EXAMINATION BY MS. RIGGS 84 EXAMINATION BY MR. KAUL 1465 EXAMINATION BY MS. RIGGS 1776

7 PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS8

POUCHER9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

10 EXHIBIT 450 E-mails, Subject: Wake - DMV 10911 EXHIBIT 452 E-mails dated 11/05/14, Subject: 87

120 People12

EXHIBIT 453 E-mails dated 10/23/14, Subject: 8713 USPS - Absentee Mail14 EXHIBIT 456 E-mails, Subject: Voter Problems 77

- Paul Kearns District 20-1115

16

NEWLY MARKED EXHIBITS17

18 EXHIBIT 458 Third Amended Initial Disclosures 1119 EXHIBIT 459 Attachment 10 Declaration of 12

Cherie Poucher20

EXHIBIT 460 E-mails dated 4/4/13, Subject: 4421 Election bills22 EXHIBIT 461 Article titled NC Voters Charged 50

After Voting Twice in 200823

EXHIBIT 462 Article titled Voters Wait in 6424 Long Lines on Last Day of Early

Voting 25

6

1 EXHIBIT 463 E-mails dated 11/5/14, Subject: 69

Willow Oak Polling Location2

EXHIBIT 464 E-mails dated 8/4/11 and 8/5/11, 833 Subject: NC State Board of

Elections Research Inquiry4

EXHIBIT 465 E-mails, Subject: U.S. Postal 975 Service Disenfranchised a Chief

Judge6

EXHIBIT 466 Document titled Board of 1267 Commissioners Work Session Ground

Floor Conference Center May 11,8 20099

10 (Exhibits included with transcript.)11

12

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14

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7

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 9:11 a.m.

2 Today's date is April 21st, 2015. This is the

3 videotaped deposition of Cherie Poucher taken in

4 the matter of United States of America, Plaintiff,

5 versus the State of North Carolina, et al.,

6 Defendants, in the United States District Court

7 for the Middle District of North Carolina, Civil

8 Action Number 1:13-CV-861 and all related matters.

9 Would counsel now please introduce

10 themselves.

11 MS. RIGGS: My name is Allison Riggs from

12 the Southern Coalition for Social Justice on

13 behalf of the League of Women Voters, Plaintiffs.

14 MS. SEAWELL: Emily Seawell, Southern

15 Coalition for Social Justice, also on behalf of

16 League of Women Voters, Plaintiffs.

17 MR. McFARLAND: Ernest McFarland on behalf

18 of the United States.

19 MR. FARR: Tom Farr, Ogletree Deakins, here

20 on behalf of the Defendants.

21 MR. WARREN: I'm Scott Warren, Wake County

22 attorney. I'm here for the witness, Cherie

23 Poucher.

24 THE WITNESS: Cherie Poucher, Director of

25 Wake County Board of Elections.

8

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would counsel by

2 phone please introduce themselves.

3 MR. KAUL: I'm Josh Kaul of Perkins Coie on

4 behalf of Duke Intervenor-Plaintiffs.

5 MS. BASCH: Jennifer Basch, Kirkland &

6 Ellis, on behalf of the NAACP.

7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court

8 reporter please swear in the witness.

9 * * *

10 CHERIE R. POUCHER,

11 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the

12 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,

13 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified as

14 follows:

15 EXAMINATION

16 BY MS. RIGGS:

17 Q. Good morning, Ms. Poucher.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. I believe you've been deposed before.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many times have you been deposed?

22 A. Three.

23 Q. Okay. I won't go through everything. But just to

24 review a few -- few of the ground rules we'll

25 operate by today, if I ask you anything that's

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9

1 unclear to you, please ask me to clarify or

2 restate. If -- if you do answer, though, I'll

3 assume you understood as I asked. Is that okay?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And especially as we get going, please

6 remember to answer verbally instead of nodding or

7 shaking your head "no." That'll help the court

8 reporter.

9 And it's very easy for us, when we're

10 talking conversationally, to start talking over

11 each other. I'll do my best to make sure you're

12 done speaking before -- before I start asking

13 another question or follow-up. And likewise, if

14 you can try and wait until I'm done asking the

15 question.

16 We also have counsel on the phone, and they

17 can't read your body language, so that makes it a

18 little bit harder. But they'll try and pause

19 before they ask their next question to make sure

20 you're really done. But don't hesitate to say,

21 "Oh, I'm not done," if the person on the phone

22 is -- is still asking questions. Is that okay

23 with you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. We can take a break whenever you need to take a

10

1 break. My only request is that we finish the

2 question pending, so we -- we find out what the

3 answer is before we leave to take a break. Is

4 that okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Do you have any other questions?

7 A. No, I do not.

8 Q. Is there any reason you can't testify truthfully

9 and honestly today?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Ms. Poucher, what did you do to prepare for

12 this deposition today?

13 A. Nothing.

14 Q. And you were in the deposition of Mr. Sims last

15 week, correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Okay. So you didn't meet with Mr. Warren, your

18 attorney?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Did you meet with Mr. Farr?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Have you met with anyone at the Attorney General's

23 Office?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. I want to hand you what we're going to mark

11

1 as Exhibit 458.

2 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 458, Third Amended Initial

3 Disclosures, was marked for identification.)

4 BY MS. RIGGS:

5 Q. Ms. Poucher, these are -- have been filed by

6 defendants in this case as their third amended

7 initial disclosures. And if you look on Page 3,

8 at the top, you are listed as a -- a witness.

9 And it says, "Ms. Poucher will have

10 information concerning the oversight and conduct

11 of elections at the county level, including, but

12 not limited to, the 2014 general elections."

13 Did I read that correctly?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So that's mostly why we're taking your deposition

16 today, is we want to understand what information

17 you have and will testify to.

18 Did you consult with Mr. Farr before this

19 document was submitted on February 24th, 2015?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did he tell you that he was intending to call you

22 as a witness in this case?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did he ask you to file -- create a deposition --

25 I'm sorry -- declaration in preparation for this

12

1 case?2 A. No.3 Q. But you did --4 A. 2015?5 Q. 2015?6 A. No.7 Q. Okay. But you did one in 2014?8 A. Correct.9 Q. Okay. We'll talk about that later.

10 Did you confer with Mr. Farr after the11 November 2014 elections?12 A. No.13 Q. Did you confer with anyone at the14 Attorney General's Office?15 A. No.16 Q. Let me --17 Before we get into this in a little bit more18 depth, let me give you what will be Exhibit 459.19 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 459, Attachment 1020 Declaration of Cherie Poucher, was marked for21 identification.)22 BY MS. RIGGS:23 Q. Ms. Poucher, this is your declaration in this case24 that you submitted on June 16th, 2014. Do you25 recognize it?

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13

1 A. Yes, but I'd like to read it first.

2 Q. Absolutely.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You recall drafting this declaration?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Before we talk about that, I just want to ask a

7 little bit more clearly: You didn't talk to

8 Mr. Farr. You didn't talk to anyone at the

9 Attorney General's Office. Did you talk to any

10 defense counsel in this case prior to this

11 deposition?

12 A. No. In fact, I had talked to the county attorney.

13 And if any of those had any questions, they were

14 directed to the county attorney, not me.

15 Q. Okay. And is the same true for after the November

16 2014 election?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you have already been deposed on this

19 declaration. I don't want to waste anyone's time

20 retreading that. Is there anything about this

21 declaration that's no longer true?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Is there anything about the topics in this

24 declaration that you discussed that you would need

25 to clarify after the 2014 election?

14

1 A. This was take -- so I'm -- I'm not quite sure what

2 you're asking --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- because this was all stated prior to.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. So we have since conducted the 2014 election.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. So I'm not sure what your question is in regards

9 to this.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Because these answers were pursuant to what the

12 law was -- is.

13 Q. Right. Right. And the law was that

14 preregistration of 16- and 17-year-olds was no

15 longer an option, correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And that was the law in the 2014 election?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Did any experiences that you had in administering

20 the 2014 election lead you to change your mind

21 about anything that you wrote in this declaration?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Same thing with the out-of-precinct -- you

24 have a section on out-of-precinct voting. Did

25 anything in the conduct of the 2014 election lead

15

1 you to have a difference of opinion than what is

2 stated in Paragraph 5, or want to clarify it in

3 any way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And then the last section is just really about the

6 injunction, so that's all I wanted to ask on that.

7 You did not review your prior deposition; is

8 that correct?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. Okay. Did you read and sign when you -- right

11 after you took -- had that deposition?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And everything in that deposition was accurate?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. So then I want to go back to 4 -- 458.

16 Ms. Poucher, how long have you been in your role?

17 A. It will be -- I'm in my -- since 1991.

18 Q. Okay. And in this statement, it says you will

19 have information concerning the oversight and

20 conduct of elections at the county level.

21 Are you going to be testifying about the

22 oversight and conduct of elections in any other

23 county besides Wake?

24 A. I don't understand.

25 Q. So this -- this statement isn't limited to Wake

16

1 County, what Mr. Farr put in his disclosures?

2 A. Counties get direction from the state board.

3 Q. Uh-huh.

4 A. Therefore, anything that I testify will be for

5 Wake County. However, it is -- it would be the

6 same procedure for all other counties.

7 Q. Right.

8 So if -- if, you know, Pasquotank County had

9 certain issues in administering the directives of

10 the State Board of Elections, you couldn't testify

11 to that?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And you couldn't testify to any issues that any

14 other county, besides Wake, may have had with

15 implementing the directives of the State Board of

16 Elections?

17 A. That is correct. The -- I will add one caveat,

18 and that is: If another county called and asked a

19 question, we would usually refer them to the state

20 board. But I would not have sufficient knowledge

21 that I would testify to anything that they called

22 about.

23 Q. Okay. Do you keep a log of calls you receive from

24 other counties along those lines?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. Are there certain counties that call you more

2 often?

3 A. No.

4 Q. About how many calls do you get weekly from other

5 counties?

6 A. In relation to?

7 Q. Well, let's -- anything you might testify about

8 from another county. But let's, maybe, go back

9 and focus on the November 2014 election.

10 Did you receive calls from other counties

11 specific to the implementation of House Bill 589

12 provisions in the November 2014 election?

13 A. If I recollect correctly, I would receive calls

14 regarding the number of hours and was Wake County

15 going to request a waiver.

16 Q. Okay. And do you remember who called you about

17 the waivers?

18 A. There were several counties. But that was

19 beginning of January '14, so that would be hard to

20 put a finger on.

21 Q. Okay. Did -- did Wake County seek a waiver?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Before we get further into election

24 administration, generally, and in Wake County in

25 2014, I wanted to ask: Were you consulted on any

18

1 of the provisions of House Bill 589? Did the

2 legislatures -- legislators consult with you?

3 A. They may have asked some questions. I know I

4 dealt with Gerry Cohen, because I -- I would read

5 the bill. And if there was a reference to

6 something that -- if there was a reference to a

7 statute, I would look at that statute, and I would

8 let him know that I think the statute was wrong.

9 Q. If there was a reference to a statute in

10 House Bill 589?

11 A. As it was drafted, yes.

12 Q. Okay. And did you point out to him problems with

13 references to statutes?

14 A. One or two.

15 Q. Which ones were those?

16 A. Oh, I cannot remember. The legislature -- the

17 Legislative Research Commission would call and ask

18 a question. I could not, at this time, remember

19 all the different things it was.

20 Q. Uh-huh.

21 A. A lot of it would have dealt with financial or --

22 was it fiscal -- the fiscal amount.

23 Q. Okay. If we got you a copy of the text of

24 House Bill 589, would that refresh your memory?

25 A. No, because it refers to a lot of different

19

1 statutes. So at the time it was drafted, I'd look

2 at the statute in the draft of the bill, go to the

3 law book and look. And at one time, the stat --

4 the reference was not the correct one that I

5 thought. So I would talk to Mr. Cohen.

6 Q. Did anyone besides Mr. Cohen call you?

7 A. That, I can't remember.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. That would have been sometime in 2013.

10 Q. Did any legislators call you?

11 A. I cannot remember. I am the legislative chair for

12 the directors association. So I did attend a lot

13 of the committee meetings.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And I have contact with a lot of legislators, but

16 on various type -- I mean, even to this day, being

17 a liaison.

18 Q. Did any legislature, to your -- legislator, to

19 your recollection, ever ask your opinion on the

20 cut -- cutting of a week of early voting from the

21 early voting period?

22 A. I may have discussed that, but I could not tell

23 you with whom.

24 Q. Who would -- can you narrow down who it might have

25 been with?

20

1 A. Any member of the elections committee.

2 Q. Are there people on the elections committee you

3 confer with more regularly than others?

4 A. No. It's -- there are several Wake County

5 legislatives on the committee, and I know others

6 just from the number of years that I've been

7 attending the committee meetings. So I talk

8 freely with -- we know each other.

9 Q. How long have you been the legislative chair for

10 the directors association?

11 A. At least six, seven years.

12 Q. Are you more likely to talk to Wake County

13 representatives than you are other members,

14 generally?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In those discussions, what was your opinion on the

17 cut to early voting that you would have shared

18 with those legislators?

19 A. They had asked for information regarding

20 Wake County. And basically, I explained to them

21 that the -- no matter when the first day of early

22 voting is, we do have a good number of voters

23 vote, and then it slacks off until that following

24 week. And then it continually picks up.

25 And we had -- we had shown them the numbers

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1 of voters in those days. And through some of the

2 elections -- and I can't remember the exact

3 years -- we didn't open the additional sites for

4 the whole time. We would wait until that

5 following weekend. Because that's when there was

6 more interest, and we have to abide by the

7 resources that we get from the commissioners.

8 So basically, Wake County, in most

9 instances, did have about -- the ten days when you

10 opened the additional sites.

11 Q. The -- the County Board of Elections was open the

12 entire early --

13 A. The --

14 Q. -- voting period?

15 A. By statute, the county has to be open the entire

16 time. Correct.

17 Q. And when you said you showed the legislators the

18 numbers about who turned out on what days, in what

19 form would you have shown that to them?

20 A. We have charts, which, I believe, in the subpoena

21 documents that I sent you, it does show the daily

22 totals of early voters, and that would have been

23 what we showed them.

24 Q. That would have been responsive to the subpoena

25 from last year?

22

1 A. The one current.

2 Q. It was just a subpoena for deposition. There was

3 no subpoena for documents.

4 A. I didn't send you a list of documents like that?

5 Q. Nope.

6 A. Oh, I thought I did.

7 MR. FARR: Was there a -- was there a -- a

8 public records request?

9 MS. RIGGS: Not from me.

10 THE WITNESS: No. I had a subpoena.

11 MR. FARR: Okay.

12 BY MS. RIGGS:

13 Q. Okay. We can, at a break, try and figure out who

14 that subpoena was from, because it wasn't from me.

15 A. Scott may remember.

16 Q. Okay. But when you were showing it to the

17 legislators --

18 So about when were these conversations

19 happening?

20 A. This would have been in 2013.

21 Q. Would this have been specifically related to

22 House Bill 589 or an earlier bill?

23 A. If memory serves me correct, 589 came out almost

24 as an omnibus. I'm not really sure on that. I

25 know I was tracking a lot of legislative bills at

23

1 that time, and many of them had different

2 segments. But I think 589 combined a lot of the

3 individual bills. But that, I would have to go

4 back and check.

5 Q. Okay. So you don't remember approximately the

6 month in 2013?

7 A. I don't. I -- I attended almost all of the

8 legislative committee meetings.

9 Q. And to your recollection, was House Bill 589, as

10 the omnibus bill, ever discussed in the House

11 Elections Committee?

12 A. That, I can't remember. That's why I said I think

13 that was towards the end of the session.

14 Q. Okay. Did you provide members of the legislature

15 with these documents that you're talking about,

16 these charts?

17 A. I don't believe so.

18 Q. You --

19 A. I think I had a copy that I could just say, as you

20 will note, you had this much. Then you had a line

21 down here. And then that last seven to ten days,

22 it just kept going up.

23 Q. Okay. So where were these conversations

24 happening --

25 A. In --

24

1 Q. -- when you were showing them these charts?

2 A. In the committee room.

3 Q. Okay. Did this --

4 Was this just one meeting, one incident

5 where you were showing them these charts, or did

6 it happen multiple times?

7 A. There was --

8 If memory serves me correct, there was a

9 bill in regards to early voting. So it would have

10 been a committee meeting regarding that.

11 Q. Okay. Were you asked your opinion or asked for

12 input on the repeal of same-day registration by

13 any legislators?

14 A. I was asked, I believe, of -- I guess it would

15 have been my opinion.

16 Q. Who asked you?

17 A. That, I -- it was so many years ago, I do not

18 remember.

19 Q. Was it a legislator, a proponent of

20 House Bill 589?

21 A. Both.

22 Q. Both.

23 A. And for the Wake County delegation, many times I

24 would talk to -- Representative Grier Martin would

25 call me, or I would see him. I believe he was on

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25

1 the committee. At that --

2 I cannot remember when Deborah Ross retired.

3 She would ask me questions. Representative Stam.

4 Representative Dollar.

5 As I said, I have a very good relationship

6 with Wake County, the delegation.

7 For same-day registration, the concern was

8 the fact that by the time the mail verification

9 was complete, the election had already been

10 certified, and it would be after the certification

11 that we were getting a lot of undeliverable mail

12 from those that had registered same-day.

13 Q. What is "a lot"?

14 A. Thousands.

15 Q. Thousands? Do you have documentation about this?

16 A. That would all be in the system that you would

17 have to get from SEMS through the state board.

18 All of that is automatic.

19 We code in -- the envelope has the bar code

20 on it. When an envelope is returned

21 undeliverable, we scan it. And then the system

22 tracks pursuant to NVRA.

23 If they're mailed a second card and that

24 comes back, that's scanned in. Then, generally,

25 that person would be denied; however, they had

26

1 voted, so the system made them inactive.

2 But we do -- the counties do nothing in

3 regards to that. That is all automatic through

4 the state software.

5 Q. So you're saying that thousands of voter

6 registration applications that -- ended up being

7 inactive rather than denied?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. How many thousands?

10 A. That's what I said. I -- we had probably -- in

11 2012, we probably had over 14,000 that registered,

12 but I could not say how many went inactive.

13 And it would -- it -- you're -- you're

14 saying "application," but it would be the voter

15 verification that was mailed. We had to -- we had

16 to mail a voter verification within two days.

17 Q. Right.

18 A. We did that nightly.

19 Q. But what -- what ends up being denied is that

20 voter's application for registration, right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Right.

23 The 14,000 number that you're using, is that

24 just same-day registrations or all registrations

25 in 2012?

27

1 A. Same-day.

2 Q. How many total registrations did you have, do you

3 recall?

4 A. No. I know, generally, before a presidential

5 election, we can get in process over 40,000 new

6 registrations.

7 Q. In a presidential election?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you get a rush of applications at the close of

10 books?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you ever get second verification mailings

13 returned after the end of canvass from regular

14 registrations?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So when you were talking to legislators about

17 same-day registration, you were raising these

18 concerns with them?

19 A. They asked me questions, and I answered.

20 Q. Okay. Did --

21 Again, trying to pin down the time in which

22 this happened, can you -- would it have been

23 before the omnibus House Bill 589 was released?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Months before?

28

1 A. I don't think that bill was enacted until towards

2 the end of the session. And so it probably would

3 have been during the winter, early spring.

4 Q. Okay. So January, February 2013?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that what you mean by "winter" --

7 A. That's what I'm thinking.

8 Q. Okay. Did any of the legislators ask -- ask you

9 for feedback on how voters seemed to think about

10 same-day registration?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you share with them that it acted as a

13 failsafe in some situations?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Does --

16 Did same-day registration act as a failsafe

17 in some situations?

18 A. I don't know what you mean by "failsafe."

19 Q. Okay. So if a -- if a voter went to DMV and there

20 was some misstep in the registration process

21 there, either on the voter's part or the DMV's

22 part, and the -- the registration never got

23 entered or conveyed, what I mean by "failsafe" is

24 the voter could then go to early voting. And

25 regardless of what had happened at that DMV

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1 interaction, they could register there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So that's what I mean by "failsafe."

4 Do you --

5 And that could happen in other situations,

6 right? So a person could submit a voter

7 registration application that just gets lost in

8 the mail?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if that happens with SDR, they can -- there's

11 no damage. They can register to vote during early

12 voting, right?

13 A. You -- you would use the term "damage."

14 Q. They -- they will get to vote? I'm sorry.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Without same-day registration, those people, if

17 they show up during early voting, they're just out

18 of luck?

19 A. They would be allowed to vote a provisional

20 ballot. We would be able to research it to see if

21 at any time during the process they had submitted

22 an application. Even if it had been incomplete

23 and we had sent them a letter indicating their

24 application was incomplete, then that vote would

25 have counted, because they had made an attempt.

30

1 Q. So if a voter had sent in a voter registration

2 application and the U.S. Postal Service just lost

3 it, you wouldn't have any record of that during

4 your research, right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And so that voter's provisional ballot would be

7 denied?

8 A. That is a board decision. Yes.

9 Q. You wouldn't recommend that it be counted, to the

10 board?

11 A. We really --

12 It's not so much a recommendation as it is

13 the list of -- of policies that the board follows

14 in regards to what to count -- what they -- what

15 they would deny, what they would approve, what

16 they would partially.

17 Q. But your -- in your experience, that is not a

18 situation where the provisional ballot would be

19 approved?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And --

22 So you would agree with me, then, that

23 same-day registration acted as a failsafe in

24 situations like the two we just discussed?

25 MR. FARR: Objection to the form for the

31

1 term "failsafe."2 THE WITNESS: I would not use the word3 "failsafe."4 BY MS. RIGGS:5 Q. Why not?6 A. A voter has all but 25 days before an election to7 register to vote and get through the process.8 They're still allowed to vote a provisional9 ballot. That's what I consider a failsafe.

10 Q. Even if it doesn't count?11 A. That is not my decision, whether it would count.12 Q. But you know there are provisionals that don't13 count because -- provisionals that were submitted14 because of registration issues?15 A. That's according to the law. Correct.16 Q. So you would not call a situation which a voter17 mailed in a voter registration application, it18 gets lost, and you have no record of it -- you19 wouldn't view same-day registration as acting as a20 failsafe for those voters?21 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.22 Hypothetical.23 THE WITNESS: The voter has the24 opportunity, number one, to call our office and,25 number two, to look online for the voter search if

32

1 they have not received a voter card in a timely

2 manner.

3 So a lot of what you are referring to, the

4 voter would be able to check beforehand. The

5 County Boards of Elections cannot be held

6 accountable for the United States Post Office.

7 BY MS. RIGGS:

8 Q. Okay. We're going to talk more about same-day

9 registration later, but I -- I want to go back to

10 the legislative process of House Bill 589.

11 Did any of the legislators during --

12 Did any legislators during 2014 ask for your

13 opinion on the elimination of the counting of

14 out-of-precinct provisional ballots?

15 A. In 2014?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. State board did.

18 Q. When did the state board ask?

19 A. We -- I believe in one -- it may have been in a

20 municipal election, and an out-of-precinct vote --

21 vote was not counted or not approved by my board.

22 And in 2014 the state board let the counties know

23 that -- under certain circumstances, that

24 out-of-precinct -- if it was an unreported move,

25 the voter went to their old precinct but didn't

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1 want to go to the new, that they would be allowed

2 to vote a provisional in their old, and everything

3 they were entitled to vote would count. So that

4 was the discussion at that time.

5 I believe it was a -- our board took it

6 literally that out of precinct was out of

7 precinct. But if you went to your old precinct

8 and said, "I moved," that you had -- had the

9 option of getting an Election Day transfer to your

10 new, where you could go to your new precinct to

11 vote or the Board of Elections to vote. But if

12 you voted at that precinct that day, that is out

13 of precinct, because you didn't live there

14 anymore. And that's how my board interpreted it.

15 Q. And this was right after the House Bill 589 had

16 passed, that municipal election right after?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Okay. So the clarification was that you -- your

19 board needed to count unreported moves and

20 distinguish out-of -- unreported moves from

21 out-of-precinct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Okay. During 20 -- I think I may have asked this

24 wrong earlier. During 2013, did any legislators

25 ask you about your opinion on the elimination of

34

1 out-of -- the counting of out-of-precinct

2 provisional ballots?

3 A. Not that I can recall.

4 Q. During 2013, did any legislators ask you for your

5 opinion on changing the laws related to who can

6 serve as poll observers?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did they ever ask your opinion on the addition of

9 at-large poll observers in the county?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did they ask your opinion on the repeal of

12 preregistration for 16- and 17-year-olds?

13 A. That might have come up in the committee meeting.

14 Q. And when you say "came up in a committee meeting,"

15 you mean you may have had discussions on the floor

16 of the committee hearing room?

17 A. Generally, I would talk to them -- either -- they

18 would talk to me beforehand. For the 16- and

19 17-year-olds, I explained the program that Wake

20 County -- and I know some other counties have it,

21 too, but I could not name the counties.

22 We have high school registration drives. We

23 work with all the high schools in the county. And

24 we have a representative from our office. Each

25 school has a representative, and they go

35

1 through -- they are the ones that determine who is

2 going to be 18 by the next election and that they

3 are qualified to vote, which -- meaning, they're a

4 citizen. And they conduct the voter registration

5 drive for the high school.

6 Whatever school has the highest percentage

7 of students register that are eligible is

8 recognized as -- at their graduation.

9 In fact, right now, we just finished --

10 we're still getting some applications in. But

11 from last week, I believe we had received over

12 900.

13 Q. And this was something you were telling

14 legislators in 2013?

15 A. For -- yes. We've done it for years, and we

16 explained what we do for those that are going to

17 be 18.

18 Q. Okay. Does the fact that you conduct high school

19 registration drives like that impact whether you

20 think preregistration should be offered or not?

21 A. That would be my opinion.

22 Q. What -- so what is your opinion?

23 A. I think getting someone registered right before

24 they are allowed to vote rather than two years

25 before is more conducive to their voting in the

36

1 next election.

2 Q. Is that true across the boards or just for young

3 voters?

4 A. I don't -- just for young voters?

5 Q. Well, when I say "young voters," in this context

6 I'm talking about 17- and 18-year-olds.

7 A. For any -- any voter who will be 18 by the next

8 election. So if it is before a primary, then that

9 person -- that voter -- or that -- the person

10 registering would be 17, but would be 18 by

11 November.

12 Q. Right. I understand.

13 I meant, your comment that getting someone

14 registered right before an election is more

15 conducive to them voting than registering them two

16 years back, is that true across the board?

17 A. That is true for the young -- for the 18s.

18 Q. Why -- why do you think that's true for young

19 voters?

20 A. First-time voting should be very important.

21 Q. And what did you mean when you said "more

22 conducive to voting"?

23 A. More inclined to be --

24 Once you get your voter card, if there's an

25 election coming up, I think the 18-year-old would

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1 be more inclined to vote.

2 Q. Okay. You'd agree with me that first-time voters

3 aren't limited to 18-year-olds, correct?

4 A. Agewise?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Anyone of any age could be a first-time voter?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you think that for them getting their

10 registration card right before the election and

11 registering right before the election might also

12 be more conducive to voting?

13 A. No, I don't. And I'll tell you the difference.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. You have someone who has never voted before.

16 Q. Uh-huh.

17 A. And the difference between being 16 and 18,

18 waiting two years or waiting for the next

19 election. Whereas, if someone -- most of the

20 people that --

21 Because being in Wake County and the volume

22 that we have, the people that are registering have

23 already voted in other jurisdictions.

24 Q. Always?

25 A. There's a good -- yes. They come here from

38

1 another state. They get their driver's license.

2 And so -- I mean, we get a very large number from

3 DMV, which Mr. Sims mentioned. And so it is

4 important for them, when they move to a new

5 jurisdiction, that they register to vote. They're

6 used to it.

7 A 16-year-old or 17-year-old many times --

8 and I cannot give you numbers -- graduates, goes

9 to college. There is a rally. They register

10 there, completely forgetting that they had

11 registered in their county of residence. But that

12 18-year-old, who registered right before the

13 election, votes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Not all the time.

16 Q. So what is the problem -- if a voter --

17 If a young voter goes to college and

18 considers that his residency and signs up to

19 register to vote at a rally, forgetting that he,

20 in high school, or when he got his driver's

21 license, had preregistered in his parents' county,

22 what's the problem with that?

23 A. Not so much -- and I wouldn't say "a problem." It

24 is the resources that have gone up until that

25 time. Because any application that comes into a

39

1 county board has to be processed. There is a

2 notice sent, because you have to let them know it

3 is received. It is held by the state board until

4 that person's 18th birthday. Then it is

5 transferred back into our system where it is

6 reviewed and ID card is mailed.

7 So you have that process, and we've

8 completed that. After that's done, they go to a

9 rally whenever or wherever they are at school, and

10 they do that. Then part of that comes back to us,

11 so it has to all be removed.

12 And many times, if -- if they have forgotten

13 that they registered when they were 16 and they

14 register somewhere else, that -- that student at

15 18 stays on our registration records, because they

16 didn't state they should be removed from Wake

17 County.

18 Q. So I thought the state board did that somewhat

19 automatically.

20 A. Automatically, but not constantly. It's -- you

21 have someone here that we've processed and gone

22 through, but it could be six months later that

23 they register at school. And then it will take a

24 while that's done, and that's done -- and when

25 they do their duplicate check, that's when that

40

1 would come out.

2 Q. To the best of your understanding, how often does

3 the State Board of Elections do its duplicate

4 check?

5 A. That, I could not give you an answer to.

6 Q. But you've perceived that there's a lag? I mean,

7 it's not --

8 A. It would be a short lag, but there's still a lag,

9 yes. I do not know how long.

10 Q. So aside from the State Board of Elections holding

11 the preregistration in queue, as far as county

12 board resources, there's not anything different

13 between what you do for a preregistration and what

14 you do for any regular registration, correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Okay. So going back to the legislative process,

17 then, in 2013, did any legislator ever ask for

18 your opinion on requiring a photo ID for voting?

19 A. That, I don't remember.

20 Q. Would you have remembered if they had asked?

21 A. I don't think it was an opinion. I think it was a

22 question.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And I can remember my answer.

25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. The majority of telephone calls on Election Day

2 were concerned that "This is the first state I've

3 ever voted in where I did not have to show ID."

4 And I would have told them that.

5 Q. Are you aware how many states in the country

6 require picture ID in order to vote?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would you be surprised if it's not a majority?

9 A. I was only concerned with North Carolina and what

10 the voters' phone calls were coming in. We have a

11 great influx of people from across the country,

12 and those were the calls we -- we would get.

13 Q. Did you keep logs of those calls?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Who would have taken those calls besides you?

16 A. Anyone in the office.

17 Q. So --

18 A. We have -- we have our lines set up on Election

19 Day for a group of staff that takes calls from our

20 precincts and another that take calls from the

21 public.

22 Q. If you didn't log those calls, how do you know

23 that a majority of them related to photo ID?

24 A. Those would be the ones that we would have a

25 roundtable discussion after the election, what

42

1 were most of the calls about. Also, a lot of

2 letters to the editor.

3 Q. When you say "majority," can you give me a number

4 with -- associated with that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How many calls do you normally get on Election

7 Day?

8 A. Probably close to 1,000. Many of them asking

9 where they go to vote.

10 Q. So are you including those in your calculations

11 when you say most of them have to do with ID?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. So on Election Day, if you get 1,000 calls,

14 over 500 of them are --

15 A. I'm not going to give a number, because I would be

16 pulling a number out of a hat.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Okay. In our roundtable discussion afterwards,

19 that was one of the -- let's call it one of the

20 "items" that continually came up from voters:

21 "Ooh, this is the first time I voted in North

22 Carolina, and I -- I didn't even have to show any

23 form of identification."

24 Q. Okay. So you're not going to quantify it, but

25 you're going to stick with majority?

43

1 A. What I just said is quantifying.

2 Q. What you just said is quantified?

3 A. That's -- yes. That the calls that came in, and

4 from the discussions of -- of all of our staff,

5 that was one of the highest number of comments

6 from voters. I'll use it as "highest number."

7 Q. That's different than "majority," though?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How does asking for which precinct that voters

10 need to go to rank in the calls?

11 A. Not as high.

12 Q. When you say "letters to the editor," what -- what

13 newspapers are you talking about?

14 A. The only ones that I have access to here that I

15 read, and that would be the "N&O."

16 Q. Okay. And you recall seeing lots of -- or I don't

17 want to put words in your mouth.

18 You recall seeing letters to the editor

19 about ID?

20 A. After -- almost after every election, correct.

21 Q. And how did seeing those letters to the editor

22 affect your opinion on whether or not the state

23 should have an ID requirement?

24 A. I really don't give opinions. Whatever the law is

25 determined to be is what I have to follow.

44

1 Q. Okay. Let's see. So you were track -- oh.

2 So I asked you about, in 2013, being asked

3 about an ID requirement. What about in 2011? Did

4 any legislators ask you?

5 A. That, I would have no idea.

6 Q. Okay. And do you remember if you answered

7 questions --

8 You recall that the ID requirement changed

9 from a prior version of House Bill 589 to the

10 omnibus version of House Bill 589?

11 A. I could not state exactly what. I believe there

12 was a change.

13 Q. Okay. Do you remember if you were asked questions

14 or answered questions before that change?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So no one brought to you the previous ID

17 requirement and said, "Ms. Poucher, is this

18 inadequate?"

19 A. No. That --

20 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you an exhibit that we

21 are going to mark 460.

22 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 460, E-mails dated 4/4/13,

23 Subject: Election bills, was marked for

24 identification.)

25 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,

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45

1 the -- the Bates at the bottom is actually

2 Control -- CTRL00035929.

3 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.

4 BY MS. RIGGS:

5 Q. Ms. Poucher, do you recall this e-mail thread?

6 A. I don't recall it, but it's between

7 General Counsel Don Wright and myself.

8 Q. Do you have any reason to suspect this isn't an

9 e-mail exchange you had with Mr. Wright?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you had mentioned you tracked election-related

12 legislative bills; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you do that for the directors association?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Okay. And you would share it with them?

17 A. What I do, and I still do it to this day, is I

18 refer to it as a "legislative tracker."

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Every time an election-related bill is filed, I

21 write the bill number, the name of the bill, date

22 it was filed, and then the committee that it was

23 assigned to. And then as it progresses, I will

24 update the tracker.

25 I get the legislative bulletin every day.

46

1 And Mr. Wright was doing the same thing for the

2 state board. So we would exchange our trackers to

3 make sure each of us had all of the necessary --

4 we had not missed any of the bills filed.

5 Q. Okay. So between you and him, you would have seen

6 every election-related bill that got filed?

7 A. I would have recorded it. I don't read them all.

8 Q. Okay. So the tracker doesn't provide any summary.

9 It's just what you said?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Okay. In the second e-mail down, it's an e-mail

12 from you to Mr. Wright that says, "We'll talk when

13 you get back. Some of the bills filed this past

14 week are unreal, exclamation point."

15 Did I read that correctly?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. Which bills were you referring to?

18 A. Whatever bills were filed that week. I -- this is

19 a week -- it would have been spring break. And I

20 can tell that from the date. I always leave the

21 first week of April.

22 Q. Uh-huh.

23 A. And so all I would have been able to see on my

24 BlackBerry is the name of a bill. So basically --

25 and I think if you look --

47

1 When you start getting close to crossover,

2 you have a flurry of bills filed. And so that

3 would be -- "Some of the bills filed this week are

4 unreal." There's so many. And I know coming back

5 from Florida this past year, I think there were,

6 like, 15, 20 election bills filed in a few days,

7 because they're trying to move them through. So

8 that's what I would have been referring to.

9 Q. So "Some of the bills filed this past week are

10 unreal" refers only to the number of bills filed?

11 A. Probably some of the names, also. I didn't --

12 it -- it's my little BlackBerry, so I didn't read

13 the bills. And I couldn't tell you right now what

14 the titles were.

15 Q. So you're saying those would have been bills filed

16 between April 1st and April 4th, the Monday to

17 that Thursday?

18 A. Or Friday to Thursday.

19 Q. Okay. So whatever that Friday was before April

20 1st?

21 A. (Nods head.)

22 Q. What kind of titles would you have found to be,

23 quote, unquote, "unreal"?

24 A. There is no way I could remember that right now.

25 I'm sorry.

48

1 Q. Okay. So what -- probably what we're going to do

2 is look up what was filed that week and get back

3 to that question later.

4 A. And it could just be the number.

5 Q. "Some of the bills filed this past week are

6 unreal" just relates to the number?

7 A. We're talking 2013.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Two -- over two years ago. So I have no

10 recollection right now of any of those bills.

11 Q. If it had been just the sheer number, why wouldn't

12 you have just said, "There were a lot of bills

13 filed this week"?

14 A. Probably because I was down on a vacation,

15 thinking ahead of -- if there were any changes

16 that would have to be implemented.

17 Q. Have you ever had a reaction to a bill filed that

18 is, "Wow, why are they doing this?"

19 A. I think most people would on some or the other,

20 but I couldn't remember exactly what.

21 MS. RIGGS: Okay. All righty.

22 Okay. I think that that probably finishes

23 up the legislative-process discussion I want to

24 have. Do you guys want to take a break or get

25 going into the next section?

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49

1 MR. FARR: Let's take a short break.

2 MS. RIGGS: Okay.

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 10:10 a.m.

4 * * *

5 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

6 proceedings from 10:10 a.m. to 10:23 a.m.)

7 * * *

8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 10:23 a.m.

9 BY MS. RIGGS:

10 Q. Ms. Poucher, were you ever asked by any

11 legislators about the effect a voter ID

12 requirement would have on preventing voter fraud?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you ever asked by the media about what a

15 voter ID requirement -- what effect it would have

16 on voter fraud?

17 A. A -- it's WTVD. A reporter came in and asked the

18 question of, "What do you think for voter ID?"

19 My comment was -- and I know the reporter

20 well -- "What did you have to do before you got in

21 my office?"

22 And he had to show a photo ID and sign in.

23 So he kind of chuckled.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I said, "I make no comment."

50

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. "I only" -- "I only execute the laws."

3 Q. Did the State Board of Elections ever ask you for

4 your opinion on how an ID requirement would impact

5 potential voter fraud?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Would an ID requirement prevent double voting?

8 A. I would give no opinion on that.

9 Q. Okay. Why not?

10 A. I don't think that's something that I could just

11 pull out of the hat and answer.

12 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you an exhibit that we

13 are going to mark as 461.

14 MS. RIGGS: And I apologize. This is one

15 where I only have one copy for you guys to share.

16 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 461, Article titled NC

17 Voters Charged After Voting Twice in 2008, was

18 marked for identification.)

19 MS. RIGGS: Josh, this is a news article

20 from online. You wouldn't have a copy. Sorry.

21 MR. KAUL: That's all right. Thanks.

22 BY MS. RIGGS:

23 Q. Ms. Poucher, this is from 2011, and it's a news

24 article in which you're referenced. And the

25 reference to you -- this is about some double --

51

1 potential double voting in 2008. And it says,

2 "Wake Elections Director Cherie Poucher said the

3 proposed voter ID law would have made no

4 difference in this case. Those arrested voted

5 twice using their real names."

6 Do you --

7 First, do you remember this incident back in

8 2011?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you remember talking to a reporter about this

11 incident?

12 A. I don't remember talking to a reporter, but I

13 remember the incident.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Because we did the research on it.

16 Q. Do you believe you were misquoted in this article

17 or -- I know you weren't actually quoted. Do

18 you --

19 Is what you told the reporter misrepresented

20 in the article?

21 A. The circumstances of this case, it would have made

22 no difference, because they had photo ID. Or they

23 had ID, I should say. They signed their name.

24 They vote --

25 And -- and I -- I remember these, because it

52

1 was -- we do a reconciliation after every

2 election. And when we scanned in vote history, we

3 got an -- from Election Day, we got an error

4 message that the person had already voted.

5 So we looked into the record. The person

6 had voted the very last day of early voting and

7 early on Election Day. And at that time, the

8 precinct officials would not have had sufficient

9 time to record all of the voters who had voted

10 that last Saturday.

11 We've since then have changed our

12 procedures, and we don't print the poll books

13 until early voting ends. But at that time, any --

14 any person that voted early Saturday went out in a

15 list to our officials the Tuesday morning. So

16 there was no record in the precinct that they had

17 voted until that list came.

18 And in a 2008 election, there would have

19 been -- I think we had, probably -- and I'm

20 guessing -- 40,000 absentee voters, many of whom

21 were already marked. But if you looked at the

22 number that voted the last day of early voting,

23 those would have had to have been manually marked

24 in the poll book, and those go out to the precinct

25 officials Tuesday morning.

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53

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. That's why I remember this. That's why -- and, in

3 fact, the -- the procedure -- our procedures

4 changed, so we could record every -- everyone who

5 voted early on a Saturday would be marked as voted

6 by the time the polls opened Tuesday.

7 Q. Okay. So you said --

8 So in 2008 there was not a photo ID

9 requirement for voting, correct?

10 A. Right. It was a signature.

11 Q. Right.

12 So you said these people had ID. How do you

13 know they had ID?

14 A. I said that -- the proposed photo ID. I -- I

15 misspoke there.

16 Q. Oh.

17 A. I'm thinking sign -- signature.

18 Q. Okay. So the -- the voters had to sign?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if they had shown --

21 So you don't know if they had ID or not?

22 A. No. They would have been asked.

23 Q. Right.

24 But even if they had -- they used the same

25 name in early voting as they did -- they used

54

1 their real name in both early voting and on2 Election Day --3 A. Correct.4 Q. -- how would a photo ID requirement stop that5 situation from happening in the future?6 A. That, in itself -- it -- any type of ID7 wouldn't --8 Q. Wouldn't?9 A. -- including signature, as -- as the law was at

10 that time.11 Q. Okay.12 A. Because they signed their name --13 Q. Right.14 A. -- in both places.15 So whatever the law was at that time, that's16 what I'm saying. And it probably -- if they had17 gone and voted early on Friday, the book would18 have been marked Monday or Tuesday when their19 record would have already said "absentee."20 Q. Right. But had House Bill 589 been in -- in21 effect then, the ID requirement itself wouldn't22 have stopped this alleged double voting?23 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.24 THE WITNESS: They still would have been25 accused of voting twice.

55

1 BY MS. RIGGS:

2 Q. Right. But it wouldn't have stopped them?

3 A. It would be one other thing to think about. I

4 think I may think twice.

5 Q. Well, it's -- it -- that's -- let me get -- I'll

6 get to that in a second.

7 A -- a poll worker would have no way of

8 knowing --

9 If the poll book hasn't been updated, the

10 poll worker wouldn't have known to turn that voter

11 away, because they were showing their ID, right?

12 A. Poll worker is instructed to never turn a voter

13 away. So they would not have known, but they do

14 not turn a voter away. They send them to the help

15 table.

16 Q. Okay. The -- the ID --

17 The ID law proposed in 2011 would not have

18 made any difference in this situation where a

19 voter was using his real name during early voting

20 and on Election Day, correct?

21 A. I can't stop a voter from doing that.

22 Q. Well, it's a "yes" or "no" question.

23 What you said was that the proposed voter ID

24 in 2011 wouldn't have made no difference in this

25 case, correct?

56

1 A. It would not have stopped these people from

2 casting two ballots.

3 Q. Okay. Great.

4 And the --

5 Now, when you were talking about thinking

6 twice, these voters were using their real names

7 both times, correct?

8 A. That's what our records indicated, yes.

9 Q. Okay. So there is evidence of what they tried to

10 do, because they used their real names?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. They were not trying to impersonate anyone?

13 A. The signatures on our -- on their voter forms and

14 the signatures on their application, voter

15 registration application, were the same. Were

16 they that person? I don't know.

17 Q. Did you compare the signature on the early voting

18 vote versus the Election Day vote?

19 A. Yes. And also with the voter registration

20 application.

21 Q. Did they all match?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So the signature requirement didn't make the voter

24 think twice either?

25 A. Correct.

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57

1 Q. So you changed procedures after this election,

2 right, you told me?

3 A. We changed when we printed our poll books, yes.

4 Q. Okay. So this situation couldn't happen again

5 today; is that right?

6 A. I would not say "couldn't happen," because you

7 never know what could happen.

8 Q. You took steps, though, to make sure the

9 likelihood of this happening was reduced?

10 A. We took steps to make sure we had as many absentee

11 voters listed, yes.

12 Q. Okay. So if the poll book was printed after these

13 folks had voted on Friday or Saturday, whenever it

14 was, and the Election Day worker has that poll

15 book in front of them, what do they say to the

16 voter who shows up who's already listed as voting

17 absentee?

18 A. "The Board of Elections' records indicate that you

19 have already voted. You're going to have to --

20 we're -- we're referring you to the help table.

21 And the official will call the Board of Elections,

22 and we will see how it can be worked out."

23 Our office would be called. We would,

24 generally, allow that person to vote a provisional

25 ballot. At the same time, we are telling them to

58

1 put that authorization to vote inside the

2 provisional envelope.

3 Then our staff would go and pull that

4 voter's application from the One-Stop, because --

5 by day and then go from there.

6 But we would let that person vote. It would

7 vote provisionally and give us chance -- the

8 chance to research, when that envelope came back,

9 if the two signatures matched.

10 Q. Okay. And so that would catch folks both who used

11 One-Stop absentee and people whose absentee

12 ballots had already been returned?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. You still do your -- that reconciliation process,

15 though, correct?

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 Q. So there's more than one mechanism for ensuring

18 that someone doesn't cast two votes?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Okay. Now I want to talk about the November 2014

21 election. Did you have long lines during early

22 voting in the November 2014 election?

23 MR. FARR: Objection to the term "long

24 lines."

25 THE WITNESS: And I would ask that you

59

1 define "a long line."

2 BY MS. RIGGS:

3 Q. Okay. Well, let me first ask you: If you had to

4 define the word, how would you define "a long

5 line"?

6 A. I don't.

7 Q. Okay. What about "a long wait"?

8 A. What -- and I think you would have gleaned this

9 from what Mr. Sims said last week. Our priority

10 is to efficiently, accurately get the voter

11 through the voting enclosure to vote. We have

12 large facilities that can maximize the number of

13 voters voting at any given time.

14 As I've stated to you before, the very first

15 day of early voting is busy, and then it kind of

16 slacks off. It increases on Friday, and on

17 Saturday is when a large number of people come to

18 vote.

19 We don't take reservations. So basically,

20 if a line forms, it is because a large number of

21 people came to vote at the same time. That was

22 their choice.

23 Q. Do you have, in your mind, a time in which -- a

24 time which you consider unreasonable for waiting

25 to vote?

60

1 A. No.

2 Q. So if -- I'm sorry. You were wanting to --

3 A. We will process voters every day until the last

4 voter has voted. We stop the line at the correct

5 time. And everyone gets to vote, no matter how

6 long it takes.

7 Q. Do you get complaints when voters have to wait in

8 excess of 30 minutes?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you get complaints when voters have to wait in

11 excess of an hour?

12 A. We did not -- not this last election, no.

13 At each one of the sites, we have different

14 staff members out. And what we have really

15 found -- and this is not any kind of scientific

16 survey, but -- "Well, gee, wish you had come

17 Wednesday. You could have come right in."

18 We get a rapport with them, you know: "The

19 line is moving. We're going to get you in and

20 out. I heard there -- you know, you can go down

21 to the Board of Elections office. Their line

22 isn't as long."

23 But -- okay. You can tell me to -- not to

24 say this. I went to Orlando, to Universal last

25 month. It was my choice. You go to one of the

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61

1 big rides, and there was a 60- to 90-minute wait.

2 It was my choice. Do I want to wait, or do I want

3 to come back? That's, many times, how you can

4 view early voting.

5 If you wait until the last day, that is

6 going to be the highest voting day. That is a

7 voter's choice. Because you have absentee by mail

8 for 60 days. And on Election Day, you can walk

9 right into your precinct. But if you want to vote

10 early, every single Saturday is going to be -- the

11 last Saturday is going to be the busiest day. You

12 can't --

13 We had 31 peo -- vote workers in a site.

14 You can't fit any more in. But when you look at

15 the number of people that we did vote, that's what

16 it's all about. We had a large number of people

17 come to vote on the last day, and that's what we

18 put on elections for. And they were processed

19 efficiently.

20 Q. Am I right, that we're talking about early voting

21 right now --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- to be specific? Okay.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And so, you know, going to ride the Hulk ride at

62

1 Universal Studio --2 A. Uh-huh.3 Q. -- is a choice?4 A. Yeah.5 Q. And going to vote during early voting on a6 Saturday is a choice?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Is --9 Do you find those two situations analogous?

10 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I'm just11 saying people have choices.12 Q. Okay. What about on election -- well, let me --13 Before we move off of early voting, did you14 receive any complaints about wait times during15 early voting?16 A. No. The very -- well, by the second day at17 Chavis, we rearranged the outside for curbside18 voting because of the large number of curbside19 voters.20 So I worked with the groups that were there.21 I usually am there overseeing it. And for that22 area, we assigned -- we started assign --23 assigning numbers to the vehicles as they came in.24 And I believe -- and -- and just to give you an25 idea, that last Saturday, I believe we had like

63

1 350 curbside voters just at Chavis.

2 So we saw that we could rearrange part of

3 our curbside and increase it, to avoid a line

4 there. Inside, you can't. Because you're maxed

5 out with equipment, laptops, voting booths. We

6 had, I think, 30 voting booths. We added a second

7 machine to count, because that first day we

8 noticed -- the ballot was very long. It -- it

9 takes a while to go through, for the tabulator to

10 read. So to avoid a line there, we put in a

11 second M100. But we were looking -- as I said,

12 the efficiency inside is our priority.

13 Q. Okay. So curbside at Chavis was the only

14 complaint you got about wait times during early

15 voting?

16 A. That was -- I said, it wasn't a complaint. We

17 had -- we -- we noticed something. And some of

18 the various organizations said, "Let's see what we

19 can do."

20 And I said, "Yes, let's."

21 And at the very end, they came up and said,

22 "Fantastic. Thank you."

23 Q. Okay. So you didn't receive any complaints about

24 wait times during early voting?

25 A. No.

64

1 Q. Would you have heard if there were complaints?

2 A. Yes. The complaints did not come to me or the

3 staff.

4 Q. Okay. There were no complaints about parking

5 facilities at any early voting sites?

6 "Parking facilities" is a bad word. Strike

7 that.

8 Parking accommodations?

9 A. We used community centers, churches. We have

10 large parking lots. I do not feel parking was an

11 issue.

12 Q. Well -- okay. So that wasn't my question, though.

13 Did you receive any complaints?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. So then I want to hand you another exhibit

16 that we're going to mark as Exhibit 462.

17 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 462, Article titled Voters

18 Wait in Long Lines on Last Day of Early Voting,

19 was marked for identification.)

20 MS. RIGGS: My apologies. I only have one.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

22 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,

23 this is a news article with the title "Voters Wait

24 in Long Lines on Last Day of Early Voting," but

25 you wouldn't have a copy of it. Sorry.

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65

1 BY MS. RIGGS:

2 Q. Do you recall seeing this news article?

3 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

4 Q. I think -- well, I guess -- so you --

5 Despite long -- wait in long lines being in

6 the news around the time of the election, you

7 didn't receive any complaints about long waits?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Let's pivot to Election Day then. Did you receive

10 complaints -- well, did you receive complaints

11 about long wait times on Election Day?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Would you have received them if they had come in?

14 Or --

15 A. I would --

16 Q. -- I'm sorry. Strike that.

17 Would you have known about them if they had

18 come in?

19 A. I would have been made aware of them.

20 Q. Okay. And I think this is clear from what we

21 talked about with regard to early voting, but you

22 wouldn't consider a 60-minute wait a -- a long

23 wait?

24 A. Let me explain that. One of our precinct

25 officials -- and I do not remember what

66

1 precinct -- called when they arrived at 5:45 a.m.

2 to set up and said, "There are over a hundred

3 people outside waiting in line." Polls open at

4 6:30. They're already going to wait 45 minutes.

5 The only other time that you're going to

6 have a large number of people come to vote is

7 generally after work, and the same goes through --

8 same situation.

9 We -- we look at the number of voters in a

10 precinct. That's how we determine the number of

11 officials to efficiently process those voters.

12 During the day, generally, you walk in, you

13 vote, you leave. But, again, when you have a

14 large number of voters coming at one time,

15 generally 4:30 to 7:30, a line will form.

16 With the growth in Wake County, we have some

17 very large precincts. We would like to create

18 additional. That requires funding. Funding comes

19 from the county commissioners. So if there is a

20 large precinct and a large number of people are

21 going to come to vote, there will be a line.

22 Q. Why do you want to create additional precincts?

23 A. To make it more efficient to vote.

24 Q. To reduce the wait time?

25 A. We have a precinct that has more voters than seven

67

1 counties.

2 Q. Right. But I -- I'm trying to understand why it's

3 important to you to split up these large

4 precincts. Is it because you don't want voters to

5 have to wait too long?

6 A. To make the entire voting process more efficient

7 for the voter.

8 Q. Including having them not wait too long?

9 A. You can never determine when voters are going to

10 come to vote to see if there will be a line.

11 Q. Well, you know that between 4:30 p.m. and 7 p.m.

12 is going to be a high-volume time, correct?

13 A. 7:30, yes.

14 Q. 7:30. I'm sorry.

15 And then -- and I assume you try and make

16 preparations for that expected volume.

17 A. The preparations are made for all Election Day,

18 not just certain times.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. You can't change midstream during the day.

21 Q. So since you've used the words "more efficient for

22 voters," if a voter is waiting 60 minutes at the

23 end of the day to vote on Election Day, is that a

24 situation where you think the process needs to be

25 made more efficient for the voter?

68

1 A. When I'm referring to "efficient," I am talking2 about inside the voting enclosure. Process them3 as quickly, efficiently, and accurately as4 possible. Get them their correct ballot, over to5 the voting booth to vote it, put it in the machine6 and leave.7 That's what I'm talk -- I want the inside of8 the enclosure to be efficient for -- and9 professional for that voter to walk in. I

10 cannot -- I -- the only part of the outside I can11 control or have control over is the 50-foot no12 campaigning.13 Q. So -- so splitting precincts may not have an14 effect on voter wait time?15 A. That is correct.16 Q. And that's not why you want to split precincts, is17 because it would reduce voter wait time?18 A. It is more efficient inside to have -- to have a19 precinct official process --20 If you have 8,000 voters in a precinct, and21 even if 50 percent vote early, that's still 4,00022 people for them to process in one day. That is23 probably going to -- it -- it's going to be a24 continual.25 Whereas, if you split that and have 4,000,

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69

1 and 2,000 vote early in each of those two

2 precincts, there's only 2,000 in that precinct to

3 vote that day, which is more efficient.

4 Q. So you're not concerned with how long the voter

5 waits. You're concerned with the efficiency in

6 the polling place?

7 A. You -- you cannot be that concerned with the

8 waits. And the reason for that, again, is I don't

9 know when exactly voters are going to come to

10 vote. Our officials found lines 45 minutes before

11 the polls opened. Lines started forming

12 afterwards. But anyone that was in line at 7:30

13 cast their ballot.

14 Q. Okay. So you didn't get any complaints at large

15 precincts --

16 A. No.

17 Q. -- about waiting to -- waiting time?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. I'm going to hand you what has -- what is going to

20 be marked as Exhibit four sixty -- 463.

21 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 463, E-mails dated

22 11/5/14, Subject: Willow Oak Polling Location,

23 was marked for identification.)

24 BY MS. RIGGS:

25 Q. You can take a minute to look at this e-mail

70

1 exchange.

2 MS. RIGGS: For the people on the phone,

3 this is an e-mail -- it's -- it's a document

4 that -- the first page is Bates-stamped

5 SBE00101090.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 BY MS. RIGGS:

8 Q. Do you recall this e-mail exchange with Veronica

9 Degraffenreid?

10 A. I do not recall it, but I will not dispute it.

11 Q. Okay. You have no reason to believe it's

12 inaccurate?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And on Page 2, this appears to be an e-mail from a

15 woman named Cindy Harrison to the State Board of

16 Elections. And the subject is "Willow Oak Polling

17 Location."

18 And she says, "I would like to address the

19 fact that I had to stand in line for an hour and a

20 half to vote last night at my polling place. From

21 what I understand, my polling place had no less

22 than an hour wait continuously all day. It seems

23 to me this polling place is much too small for the

24 number of people who vote here. Does the NCBOE

25 have a procedure for requesting a larger polling

71

1 place?"

2 And this e-mail was sent on Wednesday,

3 November 5th, 2014. So that's the day after the

4 election.

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Did I reflect that correctly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then Veronica Degraffenreid forwarded that

9 e-mail to you?

10 A. To Wake BOE, yes.

11 Q. Okay. And you receive e-mails at Wake BOE?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And she asked you, "Do you want to follow up with

14 this voter?"

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you not consider this a complaint about wait

17 time?

18 A. As I said, I don't remember this situation. I

19 cannot dispute what Ms. Harrison said. I do not

20 remember or know exactly what polling place this

21 is. But I also know, as I stated here, that one

22 of -- what I had just said to you before, when it

23 comes to having large precincts -- a large number

24 of voters in a precinct and the fact that you have

25 that steady stream. I did not receive a call at

72

1 all that day about a long line.2 Q. But you did receive complaints?3 A. This is a question.4 Q. You don't think this is a complaint?5 A. She's -- she's asking for a larger polling place.6 That's what we have been trying to get the7 commissioners to do.8 Q. So when I asked you if you'd received any9 complaints about waiting times, you wouldn't have

10 considered something like this --11 A. I --12 Q. -- a complaint?13 A. I did not remember this.14 Q. Okay.15 A. Okay. The day after an election, you don't16 remember much, because you are still -- it takes a17 long time to reconcile that election, you are18 still getting absentee ballots in, you're trying19 to catch up on things, and your mind is going a20 mile a minute. So I cannot say I remember -- I21 mean, I can say I do not remember this.22 Q. Because it's hectic the day after an election?23 A. Very. Yes.24 Q. It's hectic on Election Day, too, correct?25 A. Yes.

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73

1 Q. So when it's hectic, it's hard to remember little

2 details like this?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Did --

5 Do you remember being asked by the

6 State Board of Elections at some point after the

7 November 2014 election to report wait times that

8 Wake County saw during early voting and on

9 Election Day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you --

12 Was Brian LiVecchi the person you were

13 coordinating with at the State Board of Election

14 on that?

15 A. I believe there was a survey.

16 Q. Okay. Who filled out that survey?

17 A. I filled it out to the best of my ability at that

18 time, basically saying I had no way of knowing

19 what the wait times were. We don't have resources

20 to time that.

21 Q. Okay. Did you know that the State Board of --

22 Before the election, did you know that the

23 State Board of Election was going to do the survey

24 after the election?

25 A. Not that I can recall. Whether they were going to

74

1 or not, we didn't -- we would not have had the

2 resources. You would have to keep someone outside

3 all of the early voting sites, all 200 precincts,

4 and we -- Wake County would not have the -- have

5 resour -- our budget would not have the resources

6 to have someone stand and document.

7 Q. Okay. But you didn't get a heads-up from Brian

8 LiVecchi or anyone at the State Board of Elections

9 saying, "Hey, after the elections, we're going to

10 ask you to approximate or report wait times"?

11 A. No. General -- I'm sorry.

12 Q. Go ahead.

13 A. Generally, you know there's going to be questions

14 coming from the state board. You don't know what

15 they're going to be.

16 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you filled out the

17 survey?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was it in 2014 or into 2015?

20 A. I believe it would have been -- I don't want to

21 say.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. When it comes to Survey Monkey, which is what I

24 would get --

25 Q. Okay.

75

1 A. -- once it is submitted, I don't get a -- I don't

2 have a copy.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. You answer the questions, you hit "next," and then

5 it goes. So I would not have a copy to refer to.

6 Q. Did you consult with anyone else at the County

7 Board of Elections in filling out that survey?

8 A. Probably my deputy and the early voting

9 coordinator.

10 Q. Okay. Who's the early voting coordinator?

11 A. Brian -- Brian Pypiak.

12 Q. Can you spell that for the court reporter?

13 A. P-Y-P-I-A-K.

14 Q. So you believe, when you responded to that survey,

15 you indicated that Wake County didn't have the

16 resources to report wait times reliably?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But do you recall you actually did fill out a time

19 for each precinct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. It was, like, in a -- "30 to 60 minutes" or "Over

22 60 minutes," those were the kinds of choices?

23 A. If those were the choices, those were the choices,

24 but I do not remember what I would have put. And

25 I doubt I would have done it for 200 precincts.

76

1 Q. Okay. How did you notify the State Board of

2 Elections that those numbers that you did report

3 weren't particularly reliable?

4 A. Probably via telephone.

5 Q. Okay. Who would you have called at the

6 State Board of Elections?

7 A. Whoever sent the survey out.

8 Q. So with Survey Monkey, you see who sends the

9 survey?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Okay. And was it Brian LiVecchi?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Okay. Did you ever review the final report on

14 wait times?

15 A. There was one, I believe, I saw last week.

16 Q. Did you review it for accuracy with regard to the

17 Wake County Board of Elections?

18 A. No. I read the report, and I can't remember the

19 one scenario that --

20 There was a little thing in there for Wake

21 County, but I don't remember what it said.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Let's move now to talking about

23 out-of-precinct voting. I am going to hand you an

24 exhibit that's been previously marked Exhibit 456.

25 It's from the Gary Sims deposition.

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77

1 MS. RIGGS: You -- you don't need to remark

2 this one. I'm sorry.

3 (EXHIBIT 456, E-mails, Subject: Voter

4 Problems - Paul Kearns District 20-11, was

5 previously marked for identification.)

6 MS. RIGGS: While Ms. Poucher is looking at

7 that, for the record, I believe Denise Lieberman

8 has joined us on the phone from Advancement

9 Project on behalf of the NAACP Plaintiffs.

10 MS. LIEBERMAN: Yes, that -- that's

11 correct. Thanks so much, Allison. I didn't want

12 to interrupt y'all.

13 MS. RIGGS: Sure.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 BY MS. RIGGS:

16 Q. Do you --

17 Do you recall this incident that we talked

18 about with Mr. Sims last week?

19 A. I don't recall the incident. I remember you

20 talking about it last week, yes.

21 Q. Okay. So you didn't investigate this situation;

22 Mr. Sims did?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Did he discuss with you the results of his

25 investigation?

78

1 A. That, I -- that, I can't remember. Because he

2 generally is the one that talks to precinct

3 officials. So I would imagine he would have

4 talked to the officials.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And I believe if it says in here that -- I don't

7 know if they talked to him that night or not. At

8 that time, I'm out at our operations center

9 getting all of the returns or getting everything

10 set up for the returns to come in.

11 Q. Okay. So based on reading this e-mail, which you

12 did receive a copy of on Wednesday, November 5th,

13 Mr. Kearns reported -- I'm sorry -- presented to

14 Olive Chapel School at 7:10 p.m.?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it turns out, that was not his correct

17 precinct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And we discussed with Mr. Sims last week that

20 Olive Chapel School was now a precinct -- was a

21 polling place for a different precinct, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And that the polling place for his precinct had

24 been moved to Olive Chapel Baptist Church?

25 A. Yes.

79

1 Q. If Mr. Kearns cast a provisional ballot in Olive

2 Chapel School this past election, it would not

3 have been counted, correct?

4 A. That would be a board decision.

5 Q. Based on your understanding of the law under

6 House Bill 589, would the board have discretion to

7 count that provisional ballot?

8 A. It isn't a discretion, but nowhere in here does it

9 state that he has not moved. And that would make

10 a difference.

11 Q. Okay. So if he didn't move, though, if he cast a

12 provisional ballot, it would not have counted?

13 A. It would be brought to the board to make that

14 determination, correct.

15 Q. But under the law, it would not be counted?

16 A. If he was not an unreported move, correct. Right.

17 Q. Okay. And, apparently, when he went to

18 Olive Chapel Baptist Church, there was some

19 dispute about whether he was actually in line at

20 7:30 p.m. Is that how you read this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If he was not in line by 7:30 p.m., he was not

23 entitled to vote, correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And when he went to Olive Chapel School, the --

80

1 the poll workers wouldn't have offered him a

2 provisional ballot, correct?

3 A. That was the one he went to first?

4 Q. Right. They would have told him to go to the

5 right precinct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Polling place?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Even if there wasn't time?

10 A. That is not their decision to -- that -- that is

11 not their -- their decision to make. That would

12 have been his.

13 Q. Okay. What if he had said there wasn't enough

14 time? What would they have been trained to

15 respond?

16 A. They would, number one, probably call our office;

17 number two, he would have voted a provisional

18 ballot; number three, probably would have been

19 told -- and these are probablies. Because when

20 you have 1,000 precinct officials, you give them

21 instructions.

22 But because he would have been voting out of

23 precinct, they probably would not have wanted to

24 say, "Do you want to vote a provisional ballot?"

25 Because then they would know it wouldn't count.

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81

1 And because the two facilities are close, they

2 probably had an assumption that he would be able

3 to get there in time.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know how close they are?

5 A. No.

6 Q. But you know they're close?

7 A. Yes. I believe they're close.

8 Q. Do you -- strike that.

9 Okay. I want to talk now, briefly, about

10 same-day registration. How many elections -- or

11 should I say, how many even-numbered elections did

12 you conduct -- even-year-numbered elections did

13 you conduct with same-day registration in place?

14 A. When was it enacted?

15 Q. Well, I'm not supposed to give you the answers. I

16 believe 2007 but --

17 A. I cannot remember what year -- a lot of election

18 laws have come over the years. So I'm not going

19 to answer that question without knowing when it

20 was enacted.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And I don't have my law book.

23 Q. Did you have any concerns with same-day

24 registration, aside from what we discussed

25 earlier?

82

1 A. It was -- it was enacted into law. We had to

2 follow the procedures. And you do what the law

3 says you have to do. So the concerns don't come

4 at that time, no.

5 Q. Right. But you -- you had a concern about the

6 completion of the verification process, correct?

7 A. That was after the fact, yes.

8 Q. Okay. That's what I'm talking about.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As you're --

11 As you're administering same-day

12 registration, besides the concern with the time to

13 complete the verification process, did you have

14 other concerns with same-day registration?

15 A. This would have nothing to do with voters, but it

16 would have concern for the additional time that my

17 staff would have to work every day. So that was a

18 resource issue we had to work out and go to double

19 shifts, because all transactions that were

20 completed during the day had to be processed that

21 night.

22 So as I said, it wasn't -- it was an

23 implementation or an administrative implementation

24 concern for staff.

25 Q. Did you notice any benefits from same-day

83

1 registration?

2 A. What do you mean by "benefits"?

3 Q. Things that you thought were good about same-day

4 registration.

5 A. I don't think I ever thought about it. It's

6 following the law.

7 Q. Did same-day registration have any impact on the

8 number of provisional ballots cast?

9 A. I don't have numbers of provisional ballots

10 through the years, so I -- I would not want to

11 make a comment on that without seeing numbers.

12 And every election is different when it comes to

13 provisionals.

14 Q. Okay. Do you recall ever opining, generally, that

15 same-day registration reduced the number of

16 provisional ballots?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I am going to hand you what we are going to mark

19 as Exhibit 464. Let her mark that first.

20 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 464, E-mails dated 8/4/11

21 and 8/5/11, Subject: NC State Board of Elections

22 Research Inquiry, was marked for identification.)

23 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,

24 this is a document that's Bates-stamped

25 SBE-P-00097599.

84

1 MR. FARR: What number is this, please?

2 MS. RIGGS: Exhibit 464.

3 THE WITNESS: Okay.

4 BY MS. RIGGS:

5 Q. Do you recall this e-mail thread between you,

6 Veronica Degraffenreid, and Gary Bartlett from

7 August 4th, 2011?

8 A. I do not recall from 2011, no, but I have no

9 reason not to say that it appears to be.

10 Q. Okay. And you would have no reason to dispute the

11 accuracy -- or that you wrote what you wrote --

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. -- in this e-mail?

14 Okay. And you wrote to --

15 Well, let me say the -- the subject of this

16 e-mail thread appears to be "NC State Board of

17 Elections Research Inquiry"; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you wrote, "I also agree with the other

20 counties, that SDR does cut down on the number of

21 provisional ballots and the cost of full-time

22 staff, including lots of overtime to research

23 provisional ballots prior to canvass; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's what it states.

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85

1 Q. Okay. You wouldn't have stated that to the State

2 Board of Elections if it weren't true, right?

3 A. This would have been after the --

4 This would have been in response to

5 something from the state board at a time I had the

6 numbers in front of me, which is why I did not

7 want to state that -- an answer before. Because I

8 didn't have the numbers.

9 Q. Okay. But the numbers must have indicated to you

10 that same-day registration cut down on the number

11 of provisional ballots?

12 A. That's what it states, yes.

13 Q. Okay. And researching provisional ballots takes

14 full -- full-time staff hours and overtime hours?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Which I also stated, if you notice, the second

18 sentence for the SDR where we're having to verify

19 the registrations for the mailings.

20 Q. Right.

21 A. So it -- it's -- I'm stating both in there.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. But the -- the -- reduced the number of

25 provisional ballots is a --

86

1 A. That was --2 Q. -- an objective number?3 A. Correct.4 Q. I spoke --5 We spoke with Mr. Sims about some6 complaints --7 MS. RIGGS: Well, I guess I should ask: Do8 you folks want to take a break now before I delve9 into another subject?

10 MR. WARREN: How long do you think?11 MS. RIGGS: It's a related subject, but12 probably be another 15 minutes if we don't take a13 break now.14 MR. FARR: Let's take a short break.15 MR. WARREN: Yeah.16 MR. FARR: And then I'm going to need an17 hour at lunchtime.18 MS. RIGGS: Okay. I -- do you want me to19 check and see if there are going to be lunches20 today or not?21 MR. FARR: I'm running back to the office.22 MS. RIGGS: Okay.23 MR. FARR: But --24 MS. RIGGS: But you don't want any lunch --25 well, let's go off the record. Sorry.

87

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 11:19 a.m.

2 * * *

3 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

4 proceedings from 11:19 a.m. to 11:34 a.m.)

5 * * *

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 11:34 a.m.

7 BY MS. RIGGS:

8 Q. Ms. Poucher, before we took a break, we were

9 starting to talk about same-day registration, and

10 I want to continue down that path.

11 We had talked earlier about same-day

12 registration as a failsafe, and I think we had

13 some disagreement about what that word means and

14 what it -- whether same-day registration is a

15 failsafe.

16 But before we get to that, I want to put in

17 front of you two exhibits that were used in the

18 Sims deposition, so I think you've seen them

19 already. They are previously marked as Exhibits

20 452 and 453 from the Sims deposition.

21 (EXHIBIT 452, E-mails dated 11/05/14,

22 Subject: 120 People, was previously marked for

23 identification.)

24 (EXHIBIT 453, E-mails dated 10/23/14,

25 Subject: USPS - Absentee Mail, was previously

88

1 marked for identification.)

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 BY MS. RIGGS:

4 Q. So we talked with Mr. Sims about some issues,

5 and -- I don't know. I suppose "dissatisfaction"

6 might be the right word, with the U.S. Postal

7 Service, their performance, at least with respect

8 to this 2014 election.

9 Were you aware of all of these issues as

10 Gary was reporting on them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it something that you and he would have

13 discussed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what --

16 A. This -- this is not the first time either.

17 Q. Okay. Describe to me the ongoing problem.

18 A. We would notify Mr. -- Mr. Anderson before every

19 election --

20 Q. Uh-huh.

21 A. -- "Please make sure that you inform the stations

22 the importance of a postmark for absentee

23 ballots." Because the goal was, if you started

24 out getting them all postmarked, it would be

25 better than -- towards the end, they were used to

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89

1 it.

2 We worked, also, with state board and

3 Veronica -- we started including her on this,

4 because other -- I believe other counties may have

5 been having a problem, but they -- I didn't know

6 about that.

7 And so it was the year before -- this was

8 2014. So it probably was for the municipal

9 elections. And municipal elections, you can have

10 one or two votes difference between winner or

11 loser. And, again, when we saw the number of

12 ballots that came in Wednesday morning at a

13 9 o'clock pickup, they had to have been somewhere

14 by 7:30 election night. And we brought those, you

15 know, and we thought this is -- this is a

16 disservice.

17 With that, I believe I talked to the state

18 board, and they said my board would have

19 discretion. So -- and this was 2013. So when it

20 came time to review the absentee ballots

21 postmarked on or before Election Day received by

22 that Friday, we had those separated. And we had

23 let the board know these came in first thing

24 Wednesday morning and that the state board did say

25 our board had discretion. So they were counted.

90

1 We had communica -- verbal communication.

2 We were on the phone with Mr. Anderson a lot in

3 2014 anytime there was an issue. We received some

4 ballots back that we had mailed. Nothing -- there

5 was nothing showing that it went to the voter.

6 It's like it just came returned to us.

7 So this time Mr. Anderson included more

8 people, because we -- we were seeing this as a

9 problem. These are absentee ballots.

10 Q. What do you mean "included more people"?

11 A. Well, if you notice who he cc'd.

12 Q. Are you looking at Exhibit 453?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I'm sorry.

16 Q. That's fine.

17 A. Because you put the two together.

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. So I apologize.

20 Q. No. Just trying to keep a clear record.

21 A. And so he's seeing, okay, there's still a problem.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. And basically, it was: We need to keep making you

24 aware. And ballots that -- like, one side of the

25 ballot has the voter's information. This side

91

1 would have our return -- you know, the return.

2 Well, it never -- it came back to us. So we have

3 no idea. Did they just put it back in the mail?

4 Q. I want to understand that a little bit more.

5 Mr. Sims mentions at the bottom of Exhibit 453

6 that one of the staff members had their ballot

7 returned --

8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. -- as undeliverable. Is that what you're talking

10 about, or is that something different than what

11 you're talking about?

12 A. Two different scenarios.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Okay. One where we don't know if it ever got out

15 of the post office before coming back to us.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Because if you note, on -- on here -- up here,

18 again, he says no sticker and no postmark --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- up at the top.

21 So you had some. And then others -- because

22 anytime you go -- absentee ballots are not

23 forwardable.

24 Q. Uh-huh.

25 A. So anytime it is not deliverable, you get sticky

92

1 on there "Not deliverable as addressed." That's

2 what he is referring to there.

3 And so in this situation, it was -- a staff

4 member asked for -- requested a -- a absentee

5 ballot. We got it back as undeliverable, but --

6 but that person lives where the ballot was

7 addressed.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. So that was a post office error.

10 And then you can notice the difference

11 between Wake County and Martin County where the

12 ballot was returned to Wake, but the address was

13 Martin.

14 Q. Okay. So the --

15 I had asked Mr. Sims this, and he didn't

16 know: Do you know who the staff member was who

17 had their ballot returned as undeliverable?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. But you're confident she lived at that address?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So the U.S. Postal Service can return things as

22 undeliverable even when the address is legitimate

23 and the voter legitimately lives there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And had this person not been on staff, you might

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93

1 not have known that there was this postal service

2 error, right?

3 A. It -- it would have come back to us not

4 deliverable.

5 Q. Do you get absentee -- well, let -- strike that.

6 Every election, do you send out absentee

7 ballots that do get returned as undeliverable?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you don't know which ones of those are because

10 of postal error and which ones are because of some

11 other issue?

12 A. That's why we call the voter.

13 Q. Are you always able to get in touch with the

14 voter?

15 A. We try to call, e-mail, or mail a letter. Or the

16 voter will call us and say, "How come I didn't get

17 my ballot?" And we'll look, and we'll see it was

18 returned.

19 Q. But you don't always get in touch with the voter?

20 A. We try.

21 Q. But you don't always get in touch with the voter?

22 A. No. You can't.

23 Q. Do you know the extent to which this problem with

24 the error, as you called it, with the U.S. Postal

25 Service affects Board of Elections mailings beside

94

1 absentee ballots?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you have any reason to suspect it would only

4 apply to absentee ballots?

5 A. It will apply to all -- anything that is mailed

6 out, and that is because people move.

7 Q. Well, this staff member didn't move.

8 A. No. What I'm -- you asked all different types.

9 Q. Right.

10 A. So we change a polling place location, and we mail

11 out 3,000 voter cards. It may have been a number

12 of years that we mailed anything to that person

13 before, and they have moved. They didn't let us

14 know. That's coming back undeliverable. That's

15 what I was referring to --

16 Q. Oh.

17 A. -- when you said all types of mail.

18 Q. Okay. I was -- I meant to refer specifically to

19 this error we've identified on behalf of the U.S.

20 Postal Service where they return as undeliverable

21 something that should have been delivered because

22 the voter really lives there.

23 Have you --

24 Do you have any reason to suspect that that

25 error would only happen with absentee ballots?

95

1 A. I'm not sure I understand. I'm sorry.2 Q. Okay.3 A. I -- I really don't understand the question,4 exactly.5 Q. All right. So we were talking about the staff6 member who had their absentee ballot returned as7 undeliverable, right?8 A. Yes.9 Q. And you've said that was U.S. Postal Service

10 error, right?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Because that voter really lived at that address.13 A. Yes.14 Q. So it should have been delivered to her, not15 returned as undeliverable.16 A. Yes.17 Q. That error that we've identified, the fact that18 the U.S. Postal Service returns as undeliverable19 things that should have gone through because the20 address is right, do you have any reason to think21 that error would only happen with respect to22 absentee ballots?23 A. I can't say. I don't work for the post office.24 Q. Right.25 So that's why -- why my question was: Do

96

1 you have any reason to suspect it would be

2 limit -- it would be limited to just absentee

3 ballots?

4 A. That's why I gave you the scenario about when we

5 sent out voter cards, to show it is other items.

6 This came to the attention, generally -- and --

7 and you have to understand. With six hundred and

8 some thousand voters, there's a separate absentee

9 section that handles this.

10 This came about because it was a staff

11 member who came up front -- or, you know, the

12 staff -- the absentee ballot staff would have

13 noticed the name. Because if a ballot is returned

14 with that marker on it, it is bar-coded in. And

15 so every single one is looked at, which is why a

16 member of the absentee team would have said, "Oh,

17 that's a -- that's one of our staff," and -- and

18 gone and done something else.

19 If it wasn't a staff, then the procedures

20 are: Try to call them, try to e-mail them, try --

21 you know, look at -- you look at what they

22 submitted. Did their voter registration have a

23 P.O. Box on it, but maybe they don't want the P.O.

24 Box. Make sure what they put on their application

25 is what we entered, because we're human also.

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1 Q. Right.

2 A. So you go through all those different steps, yes.

3 Q. Absolutely.

4 But what I'm getting at is, based on what

5 happened this past November, you now know that the

6 post office can make mistakes and return things as

7 undeliverable when they should have been

8 delivered, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that that

11 only happens with absentee ballots, right?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And when you get mailings returned back as

14 undeliverable, you don't know how many of those

15 are because of the situation you offered, that the

16 voter moves, or because it's postal service error,

17 correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. I want to hand you what we're going to mark as

20 Exhibit 465.

21 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 465, E-mails, Subject:

22 U.S. Postal Service Disenfranchised a Chief Judge,

23 was marked for identification.)

24 BY MS. RIGGS:

25 Q. This is a pretty lengthy e-mail thread.

98

1 A. Uh-huh.

2 Q. But please scan through it -- read it, so we can

3 talk about it.

4 A. I remember vaguely. Do you want me to -- if I

5 need to refer to a part and have time to read it,

6 I will.

7 Q. Okay. I guess I want to start generally. The

8 subject of this -- so --

9 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,

10 this is a document that starts with the Bates

11 stamps -- Bates-stamped number SBE00033642. And

12 the subject line of the extended thread is "U.S.

13 Postal Service Disenfranchised a Chief Judge."

14 BY MS. RIGGS:

15 Q. So my first question is: Do you know who Bob

16 Perry is?

17 A. I do not know him. But I know he's a chief judge.

18 Q. Okay. And do you recall --

19 I think the answer is between Pages 2 and 3,

20 if you want to focus in on -- but do you recall

21 what happened to Mr. Perry that he was complaining

22 about?

23 A. My understanding is his wife was going to mail his

24 absentee ballot on Election Day, and then he later

25 found out -- and it should have been picked up

99

1 that day and stamped that day, and he found out it

2 wasn't.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. No. It was delivered back to his house --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- instead of to the Board of Elections.

7 Q. Right. And I think it -- it -- it does say that.

8 On Page 3, in the middle of the page, it

9 says, "I doubt that I am the only voter who didn't

10 have their envelope properly postmarked. I doubt

11 that I am the only voter who had their envelope

12 routed back to their home address rather than to

13 the Board of Elections."

14 Did I read that correctly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the next sentence says, "How many voters were

17 disenfranchised due to the negligence of the U.S.

18 Postal Service?"

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. You forwarded on this story --

21 On Page 1, you forwarded this e-mail

22 exchange to Josh Howard, Rhonda Amoroso, and Paul

23 Foley; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who is the cc there, RobinsonWBOE@gmail?

100

1 A. David Robinson. That is the board chair for Wake

2 County.

3 Q. And Mr. Howard, Ms. Amoroso, and Mr. Foley are the

4 Republican members of the State Board of

5 Elections; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why were you e-mailing just those three?

8 A. Those are the three I personally knew.

9 Q. Did you not think the other members of the State

10 Board of Elections would be interested in this

11 story?

12 A. I thought I wanted to e-mail the three that I knew

13 that -- that knew me. Mr. Howard was a member of

14 our board.

15 Q. Right. Ms. Amoroso and Mr. Foley weren't, though?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How do you know Ms. Amoroso?

18 A. I know her from the time she was appointed. And

19 Mr. Foley, I believe, had called me several times

20 over the past years with an election question.

21 Q. So you only knew Ms. Amoroso since the time she

22 took office on the State Board of Elections?

23 A. Yes. And we had talked several times then.

24 Q. Okay. Have you talked to the two Democrat members

25 of the State Board of Elections?

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101

1 A. I've talked to them, introduced myself at2 meetings.3 Q. Okay. You're a registered Republican, right,4 Ms. --5 A. That is correct. It's public information.6 Q. So you said in this e-mail that "I will be writing7 our North Carolina delegation about difficulties8 with the post office. We have tried to work with9 them for years now, stressing the importance of

10 date-stamping the return envelopes."11 Did I read that correctly?12 I'm sorry. I'm on the first page.13 A. Yeah, I see. Sorry. Yes.14 Q. So you told me about the issues with the15 date-stamping starting in the municipal election16 of 2013, and you wrote this in May of 2014. Did17 the problems start before the municipal elections18 in 2013?19 A. That, I can't -- under oath, I don't want to say20 "yes" or "no" on that one, because I don't21 remember.22 Q. Okay.23 A. But I know, anytime there was a problem in24 getting -- in -- in this, we would have let them25 know.

102

1 Q. You would've had --

2 You would have had no reason to exaggerate

3 to the state board members you knew personally,

4 correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And you mentioned, specifically, the importance of

7 date-stamping the return absentee envelopes, but

8 the issue with Mr. Perry wasn't just getting the

9 date stamp incorrect on the absentee ballot,

10 correct?

11 A. It was getting --

12 With him, they just delivered -- delivered

13 it right back to his home.

14 Q. Right. And so if he hadn't noticed that coming

15 back and reported it to you, you would have had no

16 way of knowing that he just hadn't submitted his

17 absentee ballot?

18 A. Correct. It would not have been recorded as

19 having been received.

20 Q. Okay. With the --

21 So returning an absentee ballot isn't the

22 only piece of a Board of Election correspondence

23 that a voter necessarily returns back to the

24 County Board of Elections, correct?

25 A. Repeat that.

103

1 Q. Voters mail you things other than absentee

2 ballots, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 (Phone beeping)

5 MS. RIGGS: Did someone join us?

6 Okay. Sorry.

7 BY MS. RIGGS:

8 Q. They mail back confirmation mailings, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if you don't receive a confirmation mailing

11 back from a voter, you don't know if it -- they

12 did send it back and it got returned to them or if

13 they just never sent it back, correct?

14 A. Confirmation mailings are forwardable. If they

15 can't forward it, those are -- those are sent

16 back.

17 Q. Right. But if they can forward it and a voter

18 gets it and he mails it back, we could have a

19 situation that we had with Mr. Perry, correct?

20 A. The difference would be it's a confirmation. And

21 if we did not receive it with any updated

22 information, that voter would become inactive, and

23 as an inactive voter, would still be allowed to

24 cast a ballot.

25 Q. Right. But you don't have any reason to suspect

104

1 this error on the postal service as part --

2 returning or mailing back to Mr. Perry's house,

3 you don't have any reason to believe that error is

4 limited to absentee ballots, correct?

5 MR. FARR: Objection.

6 THE WITNESS: I'm not going to speculate on

7 what the --

8 I'm sorry.

9 I'm not going to speculate on what -- what

10 can or can't happen with the post office.

11 BY MS. RIGGS:

12 Q. Right. So that wasn't my question. I wasn't

13 asking you to speculate.

14 I was just saying: Based on what you know,

15 you have no reason to suspect that this error

16 would be limited to absentee ballots?

17 MR. FARR: Objection.

18 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't suspect one way

19 or the other.

20 BY MS. RIGGS:

21 Q. You don't have any information that would support

22 a conclusion that it's limited to just absentee

23 voting?

24 MR. FARR: Objection.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly sure. I

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105

1 mean, I really want to answer your question. I

2 don't like speculating.

3 I cannot say, honestly, what other agencies

4 do. I do not want to be held accountable for

5 other agencies. So that's where my problem with

6 answering a question, is, not because I don't want

7 to answer you, but because I don't want to be held

8 accountable for what DMV does, what the post

9 office does, what any of the other agencies in

10 voter reg do.

11 BY MS. RIGGS:

12 Q. But you would consider it your responsibility, if

13 another agency is making errors that you're

14 detecting, to raise concerns about those, correct?

15 A. Yes. The first place we raise the concern is

16 generally to the state board, and they work with

17 us.

18 Q. Okay. So you had been complaining about the U.S.

19 Postal Service to the state board for some time?

20 A. Generally, my calls go to Veronica.

21 Q. Okay. And as of these exhibits that we've just

22 looked at, it doesn't appear that those problems

23 were resolved as of the November 2014 election,

24 correct?

25 A. Correct.

106

1 Q. I want to talk about another agency now, DMV.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do --

4 This past November, did you have voters who

5 presented to vote who said they registered at DMV

6 but were not on the poll books?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were here for Mr. Sims explaining how he goes

9 about researching that. So I won't ask you to

10 repeat that, but my question is: Are you involved

11 in any of that research?

12 A. No. Basically, any of that research is completing

13 the forms -- or getting the information from the

14 provisional form, entering it into the form for

15 the state board, and sending it to the state

16 board. Because the county boards really do not

17 have -- we don't -- I don't want to say

18 "communicate," but we send it to the state board.

19 The state board is the one that deals with DMV,

20 because they're state agencies.

21 So any problems, not just for provisionals,

22 but anytime there is a problem, if you don't get

23 an image, anything of that nature, the state board

24 is notified, and then they work with DMV.

25 Q. Okay. But when you're doing provisional research

107

1 after an election, the State Board of Elections,

2 after its correspondence with DMV, somehow

3 delivers to you or publishes to you the results of

4 their DMV interactions?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And how do you receive that information?

7 A. Electronically.

8 Q. Okay. Is it, like, an e-mail, or is it posted

9 somewhere where you go look at it?

10 A. I'm not going to answer that, because that would

11 be the provisional staff, and it may be through

12 the intranet.

13 Q. Okay. And the intranet is something that the

14 state board and the county boards have --

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. -- access to?

17 A. I'm sorry. Correct. Yes.

18 Q. And at that point, the -- the onus is on the

19 county boards, then, to do something with that

20 information?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. The state board's involvement sort of ends at that

23 point in the provisional-research -- research

24 process?

25 A. Yes. Once they had received that information and

108

1 posted it from the DMV to the county.

2 Q. Okay. So Mr. Sims said that he explained that the

3 information you get back from DMV is whether

4 there's a voter registration transaction, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you also see --

7 If there's no voter registration

8 transaction, do you still see if there was a

9 driver's license transaction based on what the

10 state board gives you?

11 A. My recollection of what is on the form is only --

12 On the provisional ballot, there is a

13 driver's license number. And the only thing that

14 comes back, to my recollection, is if they did a

15 voter registration transaction.

16 Q. Okay. And does the State Board of Elections tell

17 you what to do with voters who don't have a voter

18 registration transaction but still say that they

19 registered at DMV?

20 A. The -- the statute basically states that if a

21 voter is not registered, they're not entitled to

22 vote.

23 Q. Right. But it -- it would be possible for a DMV

24 person to make an error and not ask or not put in

25 the registration transaction, correct?

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1 A. That, you would have to ask DMV.

2 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen a situation where you

3 think that might have occurred?

4 A. The only way I could see it is if I was at DMV.

5 (EXHIBIT 450, E-mails, Subject: Wake -

6 DMV, was previously marked for identification.)

7 BY MS. RIGGS:

8 Q. Okay. Well, let me hand you what, in the Sims

9 deposition, was previously marked as Exhibit 450.

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Do you recall talking --

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. -- about this exchange?

14 A. Yes, I do. Yes.

15 Q. So this had to do with the daughter of the chief

16 justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court,

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And she and the chief justice told you and Gary

20 Sims that they had registered at DMV, correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. You were there and met with the chief justice and

23 his daughter, too?

24 A. Yes. I was up front.

25 Q. Okay. And this wasn't a provisional ballot, per

110

1 se, because she was asking for an absentee ballot,

2 right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And she wasn't registered -- or she wasn't on the

5 poll books?

6 A. She wasn't in our voter registration system,

7 correct.

8 Q. Okay. So Gary did -- did research to find out if

9 she had a voter registration transaction, correct?

10 A. Correct. We looked -- he would have looked in --

11 and I was standing there. And this is done for

12 anybody that comes in with that. I don't want you

13 to think it's just because it was this person. It

14 could have been -- anyone in Wake County, the same

15 process would be carried through.

16 You look in Voter View, which is the voter

17 registration. You don't see anything. You then

18 go to voter scan, because it could have been an

19 incomplete application where we could see it then.

20 And we saw nothing.

21 Therefore, he looked and he saw the other

22 daughter had registered. So at that time, of

23 course, we -- you know, we will always, quote,

24 unquote, "err on the side of the voter," and say,

25 "Okay. You're telling us this happened. While we

111

1 research, let's give you this opportunity."

2 And as Gary stated, you can't process an

3 absentee ballot to someone who is not registered.

4 That's why it would have to be done manually. He

5 would have to get sufficient information in order

6 to have something that we could make into a

7 provisional absentee.

8 And so she was given the form, the -- to --

9 to register to vote. And when that got back, we

10 still couldn't register her, because it was after

11 the dead -- I think it was after the deadline.

12 But we could send a provisional absentee for the

13 board to decide, which is why we got the state

14 board involved. Because this was a DMV issue

15 that's now after deadline.

16 Q. So she --

17 This incident, as far as I can tell,

18 happened on October 16th. I'm saying that because

19 the -- the first e-mail in the thread --

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. -- is dated October 16th, and Gary says, "Brought

22 his daughter in today."

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Was that after the close of books?

25 A. That's what I said. I can't remember when the

112

1 deadline was.2 Q. Okay. If -- and so she filled out a registration3 form then and there?4 A. She did not.5 Q. Okay. Why not?6 A. You would have to ask her.7 Q. Did you offer her the opportunity to --8 A. She was given one.9 Q. And you didn't tell her she could just fill it out

10 then and there?11 A. I'm going to make sure again -- we have --12 Okay. We did not get the registration. She13 filled out the absentee request. We could get14 enough information into a separate system, not our15 voter registration system, but we needed to know16 how to proceed.17 And so I -- I have no idea why they did not18 want to sit down right then and there to complete19 it. That is a personal choice. But from reading20 this, an application was given to them. They had21 already completed the absentee request when they22 came in.23 Q. Okay.24 A. So we kept that. But we did -- never did get the25 registration.

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113

1 Q. Did you hear the story directly from Ms. Martin

2 and her father, the chief justice's mouth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you find their story credible?

5 A. Until proven otherwise, we try to believe

6 everything that any voter says.

7 Q. So Mr. Sims said he thought they were telling the

8 truth?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And his research didn't sway him otherwise?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Did it sway you otherwise?

13 A. He was the one that did the research. Once this

14 was done, I told him that we needed to -- to

15 contact the state board to see further.

16 Q. Okay. If -- if she had been registered at DMV

17 like she and the chief justice of the North

18 Carolina Supreme Court claimed, then all she would

19 have had to do when she arrived that day is submit

20 the absentee request form, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which she had already done, you said, when she

23 arrived?

24 A. She had it with her.

25 Q. Okay. Who did you talk to at the State Board of

114

1 Elections to get a final answer on how to proceed

2 on this?

3 A. I know Gary had sent, as you can see here -- we

4 had wanted to make sure that they checked it out

5 right away. And I don't know -- okay. He sent it

6 to the help desk.

7 And then -- yeah, we got the information

8 from Veronica that there is no record of voter

9 registration at the DMV. And so that's -- that's,

10 again, where Gary sent something to myself and

11 Kim, his opinion -- everyone's entitled to it --

12 and how do we proceed.

13 Q. And so my question is: Did Kim respond back? We

14 didn't find any e-mails where she responded back.

15 A. I don't know if she responded back or if

16 Veronica -- Veronica call -- may have called me

17 and said that would be a board decision. If -- if

18 the provisional absentee had come back, then it

19 would go to the board.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. But as of here, there -- there -- in other words,

22 we're done. Until we get a voter registration,

23 we're done. The state board has told us they

24 checked with DMV. There is no record of

25 registration. And so unless we get a voter

115

1 registration from her, that's the end of it for

2 us.

3 Q. So it seems to me, though, the last e-mail you

4 sent seems -- it seems like there's still a

5 pending question --

6 A. Well --

7 Q. -- on what the state board wants you to do. But

8 you already know that the state board told you

9 there's no voter registration transaction?

10 A. But this was also, if you notice, at 2:39 in the

11 morning.

12 Q. Right.

13 A. And at that time, right after the books close, you

14 don't remember a lot. I'm sorry.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. But my main thing of telling Gary this is whatever

17 we hear from the state board is how we will

18 proceed, basically.

19 Q. Right. And so you don't recall hearing anything

20 back from the state board?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Okay. And she was --

23 Because you didn't have the voter

24 registration, you didn't ever send the provisional

25 absentee; is that correct?

116

1 A. We never -- correct. We did not send a ballot.

2 Q. Okay. If the chief justice and his daughter were

3 correct and they did ask to be registered, for

4 there to not be a voter registration transaction,

5 that would have necessitated some error on the

6 part of the DMV worker, right?

7 A. If it was anybody that said that, yes.

8 Q. Okay. You get --

9 So this was about a provisional absentee.

10 But you get provisional ballots during early

11 voting and Election Day where the provisional

12 ballot is submitted because the voter says they

13 went to DMV, but they're not in the voter

14 registration record, correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And the provisional envelope actually has its own

17 little box for that, right?

18 A. That is correct. And it has the place that you --

19 Basically, what the voter would do is -- is

20 write down their driver's license number and the

21 day -- the date on the -- on the license.

22 Q. Okay. And my understanding is --

23 So all of those -- whether they're submitted

24 as a provisional absentee, a provisional during

25 early voting, or a provisional on Election Day,

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1 your staff does that provisional research, right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Okay. And what you're looking for after you look

4 at Voter View and the IQ -- Q is whether or not

5 there's a voter registration transaction?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you make recommendations to the board or just

8 provide them information about whether there is a

9 voter registration transaction or any other

10 evidence?

11 A. We generally categorize them by registered,

12 many -- all different categories and then the list

13 that the board gets -- and I'm having trouble

14 remembering what it is. It's decisions that have

15 been made for every election on provisionals.

16 "This is -- this is how you've done it." So they

17 are consistent.

18 And so, for instance, for a voter who says

19 they were registered and they weren't in the poll

20 book, we'll look it up. Then we'll look into the

21 state voter search. Many times they forgot they

22 registered when they were in college. We will

23 print that out and wrap it around that envelope as

24 evidence for the board to look at when they

25 determine.

118

1 And -- and there will be a group that we

2 will say, "This is a group who was, at one time,

3 registered in Wake County. They have moved out of

4 the jurisdiction and registered there. And,

5 evidently, now they're moving back but did not

6 register here. And here is their registration of

7 record." So the board would look at that.

8 The same with DMV. You would have the group

9 where they say -- where we would let the board

10 know we have sent the provisionals to the state

11 board to be researched at DMV. These came back

12 that there was a valid registration attempt.

13 Then you would have another group that we

14 would inform the same thing, but DMV could not

15 verify or did not -- whatever the word is that

16 they use, that there was a voter registration

17 attempt.

18 Q. So you don't give them any information with

19 respect to whether or not the voter was actually

20 at DMV when they said they were?

21 A. We give them verification from the state board --

22 I'm sorry -- from DMV when -- that their name is

23 on the list. We have the list.

24 Q. Right. That's with regard to voter registration

25 transactions, right?

119

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'm talking about if you have a situation like

3 Ms. Martin here, where there is no voter

4 registration transaction, but she was at DMV that

5 day.

6 MR. FARR: Objection.

7 THE WITNESS: The information that is sent

8 is on a -- on a form that the state board has --

9 it's, I think, again, through the infrastructure.

10 I don't enter that data, so I cannot say. I do

11 not believe it would be on there.

12 BY MS. RIGGS:

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. The only -- what they are looking for is voter

15 registration.

16 Q. Okay. And so when you were doing these categories

17 of recommendations and saying to the board, "This

18 is how you've done it in the past," did you say,

19 "Here are these DMV provisionals" --

20 I'm using DMV provisionals for provisional

21 ballots cast, because the voters said they

22 registered at DMV.

23 -- "Here are these DMV provisionals where we

24 have a voter registration transaction. We've

25 counted those in the past."

120

1 Is that how you would have sent that to the

2 board?

3 A. We also -- it's a printed list, and we also put

4 the statute next to that list. Because it's

5 important that they know how they have to rule for

6 the statute.

7 Q. And this is just the statute that you have to be

8 registered in order to vote?

9 A. There -- there is different things in regards --

10 for instance, as -- as -- you know, for the

11 out-of-precinct voter, for the unreported-move

12 voter -- when there's an underlying statute

13 that -- that they really don't have any deviation.

14 If they do have a deviation, it could go against

15 statute.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. But when we hand them to it, "Here is the group of

18 DMVs that DMV has confirmed did do a -- did do a

19 voter registration."

20 Q. Uh-huh.

21 A. They know that is one that you -- that has to be

22 approved. That's a voter.

23 Q. Okay. So what's the statute that's -- that you

24 give them?

25 A. I give them the statute from the election law that

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1 relates to, basically, yeah, you're registered;2 they attempted to register.3 Q. Is it the same statute with both categories, the4 ones where a voter registration transaction has5 been located and one where they haven't located a6 voter registration transaction?7 A. With a book that thick, I'm not going to say.8 Q. Okay.9 A. "Precedence," that's the word I was trying to

10 think of.11 MR. FARR: Could I ask how much longer12 we're going to go before lunch?13 MS. RIGGS: I probably have another 10 or14 15 minutes on this topic.15 MR. FARR: Okay.16 MS. RIGGS: And then another 10 or 1517 minutes total.18 THE WITNESS: Total and we'd be done?19 MS. RIGGS: No.20 THE WITNESS: Oh.21 MS. RIGGS: You've got other people asking22 you questions.23 MR. FARR: Yeah. And I -- I also wanted to24 know -- maybe I'll -- I'll just raise this issue25 right now. But I -- I'd like to find out how much

122

1 time is left in this deposition, including the

2 time that was spent during her first deposition.

3 MS. RIGGS: Okay.

4 MR. WARREN: And she also needs to be gone

5 by 4:00, because she's a caretaker.

6 MS. RIGGS: Yep. I don't -- I don't

7 foresee that being a problem.

8 But I don't know who you need to talk to,

9 to get that answer.

10 MR. FARR: Well, perhaps the court reporter

11 can check.

12 MS. RIGGS: Sure. Do you want to go off

13 the record to check that?

14 MR. FARR: We don't need to do it right

15 now.

16 MS. RIGGS: Okay.

17 MR. FARR: But when you're done asking, I

18 want to find out how much time was left, which

19 would include the amount of time that was spent

20 during the first deposition.

21 MS. RIGGS: Okay.

22 BY MS. RIGGS:

23 Q. Do you recall how many provisional ballots you got

24 this past November where the voter had indicated

25 that he or she registered at DMV?

123

1 A. I know we received a public records request for

2 that a week or so ago, and I'm going to want to

3 say it's 200 and some. But I don't know exactly.

4 Q. If it were approximately 250, that would sound

5 right --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- to you?

8 Do you recall how many of those provisional

9 ballots ended up being counted?

10 A. Not many. I would estimate under 30.

11 Q. Okay. If I told you it was 13, would you -- would

12 that sound about right to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And so those would have been voters where the DMV

15 research indicated there was a voter registration

16 transaction, right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Okay. And all of the other ones, the 250-some,

19 minus 13, would have been ones where the voters

20 said they registered at DMV, but you -- your

21 research didn't confirm a voter registration

22 transaction?

23 A. DMV's research confirmed there was not.

24 Q. Okay. If a voter had this situation like

25 Ms. Martin or some of these 200-some voters whose

124

1 vote wasn't counted, if they presented during

2 early voting prior to the enactment of

3 House Bill 589, those voters probably wouldn't

4 have cast a provisional ballot, right?

5 A. I think you asked that question before.

6 Q. Did I?

7 A. Uh-huh. I'm pretty sure you did.

8 Q. My apologies. Can you remind me what your answer

9 is?

10 A. In 20 -- repeat the question, then.

11 Q. So prior to the enactment of House Bill 589, so

12 prior to 2014 -- we've been discussing issues with

13 voters who say they registered at DMV, but DMV's

14 research shows we don't have any voter trans --

15 voter registration transaction for them. If these

16 voters had gone during early voting prior to 2014,

17 they would have just registered, right?

18 A. Starting at the date that SDR was enacted.

19 Q. Right.

20 A. Up to that time -- up to the enactment of 589,

21 yes.

22 Q. Okay. All right. And that voter would have been

23 able to vote a regular absentee ballot, One-Stop

24 absentee ballot, right?

25 A. If their residence address was in Wake County.

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1 Q. Right. Yes.

2 That's a benefit to that voter, right?

3 A. Ask the voter.

4 Q. Well, you -- you've done elections administrations

5 for a long time. This -- this voter with this

6 problem, with same-day registration, would have

7 gotten to vote. And based on our looking at --

8 talking about this past election, they would have

9 cast a provisional ballot that wouldn't have

10 counted. Having your ballot counted is a benefit

11 to the voter, right?

12 A. Excuse me, but I'm also going to say: Registering

13 to vote in a timely manner is also a good thing.

14 Q. Sure. That's a judgment call. But --

15 A. Well --

16 Q. -- regardless, the voter's vote gets -- would have

17 gotten to count?

18 A. If the voter is -- any registered voter is allowed

19 to cast a ballot and have it counted correctly,

20 yes.

21 Q. So with same-day registration, if these voters

22 presented during early voting, they would have

23 benefited by having their vote counted?

24 MR. FARR: Objection. Form.

25 MR. WARREN: I'm going to object, too. I

126

1 think this has been asked several times.

2 MS. RIGGS: Well, she's not really

3 answering directly.

4 MR. FARR: She hasn't answered -- given you

5 the answer you're seeking, but she's answered it.

6 THE WITNESS: And my problem with it is I

7 don't feel it is my responsibility to state what

8 is a benefit or not to somebody else.

9 BY MS. RIGGS:

10 Q. Okay. We'll leave it at that then.

11 I want to hand you what we're now going to

12 mark as Exhibit 466.

13 THE REPORTER: Can I have that first,

14 please?

15 MS. RIGGS: I'm sorry.

16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

17 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 466, Document titled Board

18 of Commissioners Work Session Ground Floor

19 Conference Center May 11, 2009, was marked for

20 identification.)

21 THE WITNESS: Oh, Lord. 2009.

22 BY MS. RIGGS:

23 Q. Yes. This is a work session report from the

24 board -- Wake County Board of County Commissioners

25 dated May 11th, 2009, at which, if you look on the

127

1 first page, it appears that you and Gary Sims were

2 present.

3 And what I want to ask you about is on

4 Page 2, about two-thirds of the way down. This --

5 I -- I guess -- I'm sorry.

6 Going back to the first page, this appears

7 to be your report to the county commission about

8 fall 2008 elections. Do you recall making such a

9 report to the Wake County Board of County

10 Commission?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Do you usually make some report to them after

13 major -- after presidential elections?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. So you don't --

16 Do you think you were there for this

17 meeting?

18 A. I honestly do not remember.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. It says I'm here.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I would -- I'm not sure why we were here.

23 Q. Well, if this is accurate, you were reporting on

24 the 2008 elections; is that wrong?

25 A. But what I'm saying is, there might have been a

128

1 reason, because this is also right during budget

2 time.

3 Q. Okay. Okay. So what I -- what I want to ask you

4 about is this paragraph with bullet points on the

5 bottom of Page 2 -- or two-thirds of the way down

6 Page 2, which says, "Ms. Poucher noted the

7 following records were broken in the 2008 fall

8 election: Largest increase in new voter

9 registration, largest voter turnout, largest early

10 voting turnout, largest absentee-by-mail turnout,

11 largest number of early voting sites, lowest

12 number of provisional ballots, most positive voter

13 feedback."

14 Did I read that correctly?

15 A. That's what it states, yes.

16 Q. The 2008 election was one in which same-day

17 registration was an option for voters, correct?

18 A. I stated before, I did not remember when it was

19 enacted.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. So I'm not going to answer that.

22 Q. Okay. If I represent to you that it was enacted

23 in 2007, then the fall of 2008 would have been an

24 election in which it was implemented, right?

25 A. If it was enacted at that time, yes.

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129

1 Q. Okay. And out-of-precinct provisional ballots

2 were being counted where they were eligible in

3 this election, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And there was a 17-day early voting period in this

6 election, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. That is not to say -- and I -- I haven't read the

10 whole thing. That is not to say all sites were

11 open for 17 days.

12 Q. Right. We had discussed that earlier.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just the County Board of Election site was?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe you

17 didn't report out these bullet points to the

18 county commission?

19 MR. FARR: What page are you on?

20 MS. RIGGS: Page 2.

21 MR. FARR: Which --

22 MS. RIGGS: The bullet --

23 MR. FARR: Which bullet points?

24 MS. RIGGS: Down towards the bottom.

25 Two-thirds of the way down, what I read out. The

130

1 largest, largest, largest, lowest, most positive.

2 MR. FARR: All right.

3 THE WITNESS: If I wrote this in May for

4 the November two -- May 2009 for the May -- for

5 the November 2008 election, in the way-back

6 machine, I believe some of this had to relate to

7 needing additional funds because of additional

8 expenses.

9 BY MS. RIGGS:

10 Q. Okay. Why would reporting that 2008 had the most

11 positive voter feedback be relevant to requesting

12 additional funds?

13 A. We're giving the positive. The -- the fact that

14 we needed -- that, if you know, we had to stay

15 after -- and I'm not sure if this was in regards

16 to the budget for additional precincts. I cannot

17 remember when we asked for additional precincts.

18 I wish I could remember back to 2009 why we

19 did this. And I can't remember why we did it.

20 I -- I just cannot remember.

21 Q. You wouldn't have reported to the County Board of

22 Elections something -- I'm sorry.

23 You wouldn't have reported to the county

24 commission something that wasn't accurate, right?

25 A. Correct.

131

1 Q. So you must have had the most positive voter

2 feedback in the November 2008 election, correct?

3 A. That was my opinion. Yes.

4 Q. And that was an election where same-day

5 registration was an option for voters?

6 A. If it was in the statute at that time, correct.

7 Q. Right. And this was an election where

8 out-of-precinct voting was potentially an option

9 for voters?

10 A. It was also a time where we had utilized two

11 shopping centers as early voting sites, which were

12 a tremendous success that the voters really liked.

13 As you can note, Triangle had 7,000 square

14 feet. Thirty -- you know, we just -- it was a

15 good experience. We started up with "Wake Votes

16 Early," which is our website for early voting. We

17 had a very large number of people vote. We voted

18 more people than any other county in the state.

19 Positive feedback, mostly, was in regards to the

20 shopping malls.

21 And so, yes, we thought it was a good

22 election. When you don't make front page of the

23 newspaper the day after the election, that's what

24 you strive for.

25 Q. Right. That's not what you said here, though.

132

1 You just said, "Most positive voter feedback."

2 A. It was. And -- and we had received an awful lot

3 of e-mails from voters in regards to the shopping

4 malls.

5 Q. Okay. Do you retain any of those e-mails?

6 A. Not since 2009, no.

7 Q. Okay. The --

8 This past November, when voters went to

9 early voting, if they couldn't be found on the

10 poll books in the voter registration system, were

11 they prompted or offered a provisional ballot?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. No matter what?

14 A. Excuse me. From my observation, when I was inside

15 the -- the early voting site, yes. But that

16 was -- that is part of their training. But I am

17 not at all sites all hours.

18 Q. Okay. So they are trained, no matter what, to

19 offer a provisional ballot to an early voter who

20 isn't registered?

21 A. Who they cannot find.

22 Q. Right.

23 A. And, again, as I stated before, we strongly

24 reiterate in training: You never deny a voter the

25 right to vote.

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1 Q. Right. So I would understand that to be different2 than giving a voter a provisional ballot if they3 asked for one versus affirmatively offering them a4 provisional ballot if they don't know they're5 entitled to have it. Does that make sense to you,6 that distinction?7 A. The voter -- at least, the process in Wake County8 is, if you are not in the system, you go to the9 help table.

10 Q. Okay.11 A. If they cannot find you in the system, they go12 date of birth -- you know, they look it up many13 different ways. Then a provisional ballot is14 offered.15 Q. Okay. Did --16 If a voter wasn't registered during -- when17 they presented during early voting, would they18 also be given a registration application?19 A. Now, you're talking 2014?20 Q. 2014, yes.21 A. The registration application is attached to the22 envelope.23 Q. The provisional?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Okay. Did people fill out provisionals but not

134

1 fill out the registration application?2 A. The instructions are that the precinct -- or the3 early voting staff is to look at the entire voter4 registration application to make sure it is5 completely completed and also that -- the6 provisional.7 Then there's also a little sign for the8 official to write anything else. But it is their9 responsibility to review the voter registration

10 application to make sure that it is completed.11 Q. Okay.12 A. And that stays attached.13 Q. Okay. So if a voter cast a provisional ballot and14 it's determined by the County Board of Elections15 that that provisional shouldn't be counted because16 the voter wasn't registered, is that registration17 application then processed?18 A. Correct.19 Q. And what date would it have on it?20 A. The election -- the election date, or if it was at21 an early voting site, the date it was completed.22 Q. Okay. So it wouldn't be postdated after the23 election?24 A. Not that I believe.25 Q. Okay. Did you look back to see how many

135

1 registration applications were dated during the

2 early voting period?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you have any idea what that number is?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that if a person -- there

7 wouldn't be a reason for a person to cast -- or to

8 submit a voter registration application or have it

9 counted during early voting prior to 2014, because

10 the voter would have just registered?

11 MR. FARR: Objection. I -- I didn't

12 understand the question.

13 THE WITNESS: I didn't either.

14 BY MS. RIGGS:

15 Q. So in 2014 we have voter registration applications

16 that are dated during early voting, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they're attached to provisional ballots,

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's not something you would have seen much of

22 before -- while same-day registration was in

23 effect, right?

24 A. The provisional ballot envelope was the same.

25 Q. Right.

136

1 A. And it would have been up to the voter if they

2 decided they wanted to register and vote, yes.

3 Q. Right. But they could have also just registered

4 at the One-Stop?

5 A. If they -- register and vote.

6 Q. Right.

7 A. They may not -- and -- and for same-day

8 registration, you had to register and vote the

9 same day.

10 If they decided they didn't want to do that,

11 they -- they -- they could register, but then they

12 couldn't vote that day. I mean, if -- if they

13 registered and left, okay --

14 Q. Right.

15 A. -- then it was treated as a registration.

16 Q. Okay. So that would be an exception. Was that a

17 common occurrence?

18 A. I would have no idea. I would doubt it.

19 Q. Right.

20 MS. RIGGS: Okay. There -- I have one more

21 topic, short topic, I want to cover. Do you want

22 to take a lunch break?

23 MR. FARR: I think we need to.

24 MR. WARREN: Yeah. Yeah. It's been a long

25 morning.

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1 MS. RIGGS: Okay. Great. Going off -- we

2 can go off.

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 12:41 p.m.

4 * * *

5 (Whereupon, there was a luncheon recess in

6 the proceedings from 12:41 p.m. to 2:17 p.m.)

7 * * *

8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at four

9 seven -- well, on record at 2:17 p.m.

10 BY MS. RIGGS:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Poucher. I just have a couple

12 more brief topics to talk with you about. And

13 then Mr. Kaul, who's on the phone, will be asking

14 questions.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. On Election Day this past November, did you get

17 any reports of issues from the Chavis Community

18 Center polling place?

19 A. On Election Day, no.

20 Q. Did you get any reports about a high number of

21 out-of-precinct voters appearing at that polling

22 place?

23 A. In 2014, no.

24 Q. Did you get any reports of a backlog at the help

25 desk rerouting out-of-precinct voters?

138

1 A. Personally, me, no.

2 Q. Would you have heard about issues?

3 A. If we were getting calls, we -- we send out

4 coordinators to deal with any situations and see

5 what's going on.

6 Q. Uh-huh.

7 A. And then I have to leave the downtown office to go

8 to the operations center, because that's where the

9 board meets to do our absentee. So I am only

10 there until about 1 o'clock in the afternoon. Up

11 until that time, I had not heard of any, no.

12 Q. Who would have received notification of issues if

13 the problems had happened later in the day?

14 A. Any one of the staff that answer the phones for

15 what we refer to as the official -- official's

16 phone line. That's a different number.

17 Q. Okay. And who would have worked the official's

18 hotline -- or the official's number?

19 A. There would have been a number of staff, but I

20 would not have their names at this time.

21 Q. If -- if there had been hundreds of

22 out-of-precinct voters who had present --

23 presented to Chavis Community Center on Election

24 Day, would you have -- would your -- would your

25 officials staff have reported that to you?

139

1 A. For that number, I would have been contacted, yes.

2 Q. Okay. And who would you have expected to contact

3 you from that polling place?

4 A. Mr. Sims.

5 Q. Who would have contacted him from that polling

6 place?

7 A. The coordinator.

8 Q. Do you know who the coordinator was?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is that something you could look up and find out

11 for us?

12 A. We would have that on record.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Each coordinator has a district --

15 MR. FARR: Can I --

16 THE WITNESS: -- that they cover.

17 MR. FARR: Can I just ask a question,

18 Allison? You're -- you're saying hundreds of

19 out-of-precinct?

20 MS. RIGGS: Voters.

21 MR. FARR: At Chavis?

22 MS. RIGGS: Yes. Not that cast provisional

23 ballots. That presented.

24 MR. FARR: Okay.

25 BY MS. RIGGS:

140

1 Q. So, I mean, if an out-of-precinct voter presents,2 a poll person is going to tell them to go to their3 right precinct, right, rather than --4 A. Correct.5 Q. -- offer them a provisional ballot? That's what6 I'm talking about.7 A. But for something like that, they would not call8 for that. I thought you meant people coming in9 and proceeding to the help table to do a

10 provisional.11 Q. No.12 So they would have proceeded to the help13 table, because they were out of precinct?14 A. They would not have been on the poll book.15 Q. Right.16 A. Because it's, on Election Day, only the voters in17 that precinct. But if you go to the help table,18 there is a laptop.19 Q. Right.20 A. We can look the voter up, direct them to the21 correct polling place.22 Q. Right. That's what I'm saying. They're --23 they're -- these voters presented. They weren't24 on the poll books. They went to the help desk.25 They were out of precinct. So I was asking about

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1 a backlog or a line getting to the help desk

2 because there were so many of them.

3 A. If there had been, we would have gotten a call to

4 see if there -- we have what is referred to as

5 "emergency Election Day workers" --

6 Q. Uh-huh.

7 A. -- that we could have sent out to accommodate it.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And every election, when you have an early voting

10 site that is the same as an Election Day polling

11 place, there is confusion.

12 Q. And that's the case with Chavis?

13 A. Yes. And -- and, again, with Chavis, because of

14 the historical nature, that is one that my board

15 has felt best to keep as an early voting site.

16 Q. Can you, very briefly, explain the historical

17 nature?

18 A. Since early voting ever started, the various

19 organizations in Southeast Raleigh requested that

20 that be an early voting site.

21 Q. And Southeast Raleigh is heavily African-American,

22 right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. On -- going up to Election Day, are voters sent a

25 reminder of where their polling place is from the

142

1 County Board of Elections?2 A. The only time a voter is sent a voting card -- or3 voter information card is if they're newly4 registered; they make a change to their name,5 address or party; if we make any change, polling6 place, et cetera.7 Other than that, they have the voter search8 if they have Internet access or to call our9 office, and we will tell them. But no.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Last topic, very quickly: I11 want to understand the sort of -- the maximum and12 minimum numbers of people at a polling place,13 early voting or Election Day, that a voter would14 interact with.15 So when they go in, there's a check --16 When the voter goes in, regardless of17 whether it's an early voting site or an Election18 Day site, there's a check-in desk; is that right?19 A. That is correct.20 Q. Okay. And at an early voting site, if there's no21 problems, the voter goes from the check-in desk to22 the ballot desk?23 A. To the ballot table, correct.24 Q. Correct. Okay.25 And then, assuming there's no problems, they

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1 go from the ballot table to vote their ballot?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And then they leave. And if it's -- they give the

4 ballot to someone who sticks it in the scanner?

5 A. The voter sticks it in -- the voter inserts it

6 into the tabulator.

7 Q. Okay. But there's a person there manning the

8 tabulator, right?

9 A. Making sure there isn't a problem, yes.

10 Q. Okay. So the very minimum, on Election Day or

11 early voting, of poll workers that a voter would

12 interact with is three?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And then at check-in, if there's a problem,

15 the voter gets sent to a help desk?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And the help desk is manned by some other -- not

18 the judges at the site?

19 A. It could -- there's a difference between Election

20 Day --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- and early voting.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Early voting is staff. They are employees --

25 Q. Okay.

144

1 A. -- that we have trained. On Election Day, you2 have your three appointed officials, but we can3 have seven to ten assistants that are also trained4 and sworn.5 Q. Okay.6 A. So our early voting, the site supervisor who is in7 charge of the site -- between different tests and8 stuff, it's determined who has the best computer9 skills to work on the help desk. You would go

10 from the registration table to the help desk. If11 that person still could not be found and had to12 vote a provisional ballot, then the voter at that13 time would complete the provisional ballot14 envelope, the voter registration. The help desk15 official would determine the ballot style for that16 person's precinct. They would get that ballot,17 the proper ballot, and it's folded. There is a18 booth near the -- the help table for that voter to19 vote and then seal the envelope -- seal the ballot20 in the envelope, and then it's put in a sealed bag21 at the help desk.22 Q. So if a voter has issues and has to go to the help23 desk, it's possible, then, that that person is the24 last person they interact with?25 A. Correct.

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1 Q. Okay. But on Election Day, if there's issues, the

2 judges or some of the other helpers might be at

3 the help desk, too?

4 A. They -- they have -- they're still considered a

5 help table official. They have got their special

6 training.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And the reason for that is you -- you make every

9 effort to locate the voter other than just by --

10 by name.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. And then many times, it could be a simple change

13 of address, still in the precinct. So that would

14 be completed and given to -- then the -- the voter

15 would take that to the ballot table.

16 Q. Okay. So the very minimum seems to be three, and

17 the maximum is -- depends on how many election

18 workers there are there?

19 A. We never have less than five to seven --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- on Election Day.

22 MS. RIGGS: Okay. Ms. Poucher, that's all

23 I have. I'm going to hand you off to Mr. Kaul

24 now.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

146

1 Good afternoon, sir.2 * * *3 EXAMINATION4 BY MR. KAUL:5 Q. Hello, Ms. Poucher. How are you?6 A. Good.7 Q. And I, as you can tell, am participating in the8 deposition by telephone. So if you have any9 trouble hearing me or understanding anything I

10 say, please just let me know that, okay?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Can you hear me all right now?13 A. I can hear you fine, yes, sir.14 Q. Great. And because we can't see each other's15 face, it sometimes can be difficult to tell when16 somebody is done with a question or answer. So if17 you're in the middle of an answer and I speak over18 you, please stop me and -- and complete your19 answer, okay?20 A. Yes, sir.21 Q. I promise, I will not be bothered by that at all.22 First, let me direct your attention to23 Exhibit 463.24 A. One second. Okay.25 Q. Do you recall looking at this document with

147

1 Ms. Riggs?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And I'd like to focus on the very top

4 e-mail. The last sentence in that e-mail, you

5 wrote, "We have way too many large -- very large

6 precincts, and even with early voting, there are

7 too many voters left to vote on Election Day."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you mean when you wrote, "Even with early

11 voting, there are too many voters left to vote on

12 Election Day"?

13 A. If -- if you look at the past statistics for early

14 voting, we have a very high number of voters who

15 do take advantage of early voting. In some

16 elections, more people vote early than they do on

17 Election Day.

18 But in a situation -- say, it would be 50

19 percent of a -- of a precinct voted at an early

20 voting site, and that left 50 percent left to vote

21 on Election Day. That would still be a very large

22 number of voters to -- to process in a timely

23 manner.

24 Q. Okay. So would it be fair to say that what you're

25 indicating is that even though early voting

148

1 alleviated some of the pressure on these precincts

2 on Election Day, it wasn't enough to totally

3 eliminate the pressure?

4 MR. FARR: To -- to what? Could you --

5 MR. KAUL: To fully eliminate the pressure.

6 MR. FARR: Fully alleviate the pressure?

7 MR. KAUL: Yes.

8 MR. FARR: Okay. I'll object to the form.

9 But I -- I can't instruct you not to answer

10 that, Ms. Poucher. You can answer the question.

11 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's one of the --

12 the --

13 The precincts have gotten so large in -- in

14 certain areas of our county because of the growth

15 in the county, that it would not have been

16 manageable without early voting on -- in an

17 election with a high turnout.

18 BY MR. KAUL:

19 Q. Okay. Did Wake County have afternoon voting on

20 the Saturday before the election until 2014?

21 A. In 2012 the state board ordered the counties to

22 remain open until 5 o'clock. My board had --

23 in -- in my recollection, my board had a

24 bipartisan plan to close at 1:00. And the reason

25 for that was to give -- give the office sufficient

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1 time to reconcile voter -- the voters that voted

2 at the early voting site and then to send the file

3 to the printer for our poll books.

4 Q. Do you know why you were ordered by the state

5 board to stay open?

6 A. All county boards were.

7 Q. Do you know why that was?

8 A. You would have to ask the chair of the state board

9 at -- in 2012.

10 Q. That Saturday just before the election is the

11 busiest day of early voting for the entire early

12 voting cycle, isn't it?

13 A. It -- it -- yes. Statistically, yes.

14 Q. And that's even though the voting is during a

15 shorter period?

16 A. What do you mean "during a shorter period"?

17 Q. Well, now, in 2014 voting on the Saturday before

18 the election had to end at 1 o'clock p.m., right?

19 A. Which is exactly the time my board bipartisan vote

20 wanted it to end in 2012.

21 Q. Right. So when I say "shorter period," I mean

22 it's shorter than the length of time you had to

23 vote early on, say, Friday?

24 A. We -- we were open later on Friday. We stayed

25 open until, I believe, 7 o'clock every night.

150

1 Q. So does that Saturday before the election

2 typically have the longest lines of any day for

3 early voting?

4 A. That has always been the case since early voting

5 started. Yes, sir.

6 Q. What role does your office play when there are

7 allegations of voter fraud in Wake County?

8 A. They are completely researched. I don't know what

9 you're -- exact --

10 Any type of complaint is researched, but

11 instances of voter fraud -- please be more

12 specific.

13 I -- I think in one of the e-mails that we

14 answered this morning, we saw the -- through our

15 reconciliation, that people had attempted to vote

16 twice.

17 Q. Sure.

18 A. That --

19 Q. And -- and I can be more specific.

20 Do you, based on your research, make

21 referrals to the district attorney for possible

22 prosecution?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During your time as director of the Wake County

25 Board of Elections, have you ever made a referral

151

1 to the district attorney for prosecution where a

2 voter showed up in person imitating another voter?

3 A. I would have no way of knowing that they

4 impersonated another voter.

5 Q. What do you mean by that?

6 A. You state your name, and you -- you state your

7 name and address, and you sign. I --

8 Q. Well, when you say you would have no way of

9 knowing, do you mean that the -- the poll workers

10 would have no way of knowing?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Well, sometimes the poll workers know the people

13 in the precinct where they're working, right?

14 A. With the size of our precincts in Wake County, to

15 know the voters in the precinct are pretty

16 unlikely.

17 Q. Do you have situations in which voters complained

18 that somebody had voted in their name earlier in

19 the day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many times?

22 A. A few.

23 Q. Fewer than ten, would you say?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that's over approximately 20 years?

152

1 A. No. I'm saying in the past few years.

2 Q. And what --

3 Did you investigate those circumstances?

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. And did you determine what happened?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was that?

8 A. Generally, it was a father and a son, and the

9 father or the son's authorization to vote was

10 pulled in error.

11 Q. In any of those cases, did you determine that

12 somebody had fraudulently voted in the name of

13 another person?

14 A. No. We had them -- them attempt but not follow

15 through on the process.

16 Q. When did that attempt occur?

17 A. 2012.

18 Q. And can you explain the circumstances of that

19 incident?

20 A. I'm going to get names wrong, but it was somebody

21 doing a film in regards to coming into a precinct

22 and stating their -- stating their name, which

23 wasn't their name. But they left the polling --

24 Q. Was it somebody that -- I'm sorry.

25 A. They left the polling place.

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1 Q. Did this incident you're describing involve

2 somebody trying to prove that there were flaws in

3 the system?

4 A. We didn't get that far. I just referred it to

5 the -- to the State Board of Elections and

6 informed them what was going -- what had happened.

7 Q. Do you know if a person named James O'Keefe was

8 involved?

9 A. Yes. That's correct.

10 Q. And he is a conservative activist; is that right?

11 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

12 THE WITNESS: I had no idea who he was at

13 that time.

14 BY MR. KAUL:

15 Q. All right. Aside from that incident, do you know

16 of any other incidents of voter impersonation

17 fraud or attempted voter impersonation fraud in

18 Wake County?

19 A. That would be hard to determine.

20 Q. I'm just asking if you know of any.

21 A. I can't know of any, because it would be hard to

22 determine.

23 Q. So I understand it would be hard to determine,

24 but -- but that means that you don't know of any?

25 A. Correct.

154

1 Q. Okay. Have there been any cases in Wake County

2 where individuals took advantage of same-day

3 registration to commit voter fraud?

4 A. We had -- we had individuals who did register to

5 vote whose address confirmation or verification

6 did not reach them, and they were denied. So I --

7 I -- someone else would have to say -- say what

8 their reasoning was, not me.

9 Q. That could happen for any number of reasons,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It could be if somebody moved between when they

13 voted and when they -- their confirmation was

14 received?

15 A. Yes. But it's generally -- they should receive it

16 within a week to ten days.

17 Q. It could also be the case that they didn't receive

18 it because there was a mistake in the mail, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you, through investigation, determine that any

21 of those people had fraudulently registered?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You mentioned earlier --

24 MR. FARR: Hang on, Josh.

25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

155

1 MR. FARR: She has -- she has something

2 else she wanted to say.

3 THE WITNESS: What I wanted to say on the

4 end of that is -- is: When it comes to

5 information like that, that is what the

6 investigators at the state board would do. We

7 would send the information to them.

8 BY MR. KAUL:

9 Q. Okay. Thank you, and I'm sorry for interrupting

10 you.

11 A. It was an afterthought.

12 Q. All right. You mentioned earlier that there was a

13 roundtable discussion after the election. Do you

14 remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was involved in that roundtable discussion?

17 A. I was not. It is generally my deputy, Mr. Sims;

18 the members of our staff that work on the precinct

19 team -- and when I say "precinct team," those --

20 they work with training the precinct officials.

21 The coordinators, who are the ones -- we call them

22 our stars, they have been long-term precinct

23 officials who understand the election processes

24 inside and out. And some of our experienced

25 precinct officials. Where they can sit down --

156

1 As you know, every election has different

2 aspects to it. They would review what went well,

3 what maybe we could make -- redefine better, how

4 we can make things more efficient, things of that

5 nature.

6 Q. And how did you learn about what was discussed at

7 that meeting?

8 A. Just general conversations with Mr. Sims.

9 Q. Okay. So from Mr. Sims?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you said before, I think, that one of the

12 items that continually came up was that voters had

13 called in to say that this was the first time they

14 had voted in North Carolina and they didn't have

15 to show an ID?

16 A. No. That -- your -- that's staff calls coming in.

17 There's two different things. There is a

18 roundtable discussion that is done with my

19 precinct officials. The other is calls that come

20 in on Election Day.

21 Q. Okay. And when did the voter ID issue come up?

22 A. I can't say when. It can be in a casual -- "I got

23 a lot of phone calls today. The majority of my

24 phone calls today dealt with people wondering why

25 there's no ID."

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1 And they -- the answer would be to the

2 voter, "You would have to talk to the

3 General Assembly."

4 Q. And this is -- these are calls that came up in the

5 2014 election?

6 A. They've come up every election. Mainly in the

7 major elections.

8 Q. For how long have you been getting those calls?

9 A. Ever since there's been a large influx of voters

10 from other -- other states.

11 Q. So approximately, when would you say that was?

12 A. I would not venture to guess. I'm sorry.

13 Q. Do you remember if those calls went as far back as

14 the 2008 election?

15 A. I'm -- I -- it would be a guess.

16 Q. And do you know whether those calls were organized

17 by any particular group?

18 A. I would have no way of knowing that, sir.

19 Q. Have you received -- actually, strike that.

20 Let me shift gears and ask you quickly about

21 the wait-times report --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- that you were asked about earlier.

24 A. Uh-huh -- yes, sir.

25 Q. In responding to that, did you -- you handled the

158

1 response to that entirely on your own; is that

2 right?

3 MR. FARR: I don't think that's what she

4 testified to.

5 MR. KAUL: Well, that's -- that's what I'm

6 asking.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't think that's what I

8 testified to either. I think I spoke with others.

9 BY MR. KAUL:

10 Q. Okay. Who did you speak to?

11 A. I know it would have been my deputy. Everyone in

12 the office has different roles. I will talk to

13 several people. And there are times I will ask

14 Mr. Sims to send in a e-mail. Other times, I will

15 complete it. But I believe on the one for the

16 wait times, I responded, with consultation from

17 other staff.

18 Q. Okay. Would you please walk us through the

19 process of what you did to respond to that.

20 A. For early voting sites, we had eight sites, plus

21 our office. They were open 360-some hours. So

22 periodically, during those times, but especially

23 on the last Saturday, different staff would

24 continually travel to the different sites and try

25 to gauge how -- well, first of all, to make sure

159

1 everything was going okay. Secondly, do we2 need -- you know, I was out doing traffic control.3 Where -- where do we need bodies? Because we4 would pull staff in -- our staff to do other5 things to help move -- keep -- keep everything in6 place on early voting sites.7 Then on Election Day, you have 2008 precincts, each open 13 hours. And at that time,9 we would really have no idea what is going on in

10 the 200 precincts until it's time for the polls to11 close.12 And then the coordinators are checking with13 each of the precincts within their -- what we call14 "jurisdiction." They each have about ten15 precincts. And they would say, okay, such and16 such a precinct is still voting. That would be17 how we would find out something at that time.18 Q. Okay. So that's what you were doing while the19 election was ongoing, right?20 A. On Election Day, correct.21 Q. All right. And you said you received the request22 for information for the wait-times report after23 the election had taken place, right?24 A. Yes. It -- it was -- it was not immediate.25 Q. So after you received that request for

160

1 information, what, if any, additional steps did

2 you take to learn about the wait times?

3 A. I just went and asked some of the staff.

4 Q. Okay. And staff at the County Board of Elections

5 office?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember who, in particular, you asked?

8 A. Basically, it -- it would have been Mr. Sims and

9 Brian Pypiak, who is the early voting coordinator.

10 Because he would have been the one checking in

11 with the others. Either Gary or Brian would be

12 checking in on wait times with others.

13 Q. Did you ask anybody who was a precinct official?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And I think you said earlier --

16 Well, tell me if -- if this is consistent

17 with what you said earlier: Is it right that you

18 said something to the effect that there -- that

19 there's no -- you don't have the -- the resources

20 to monitor the wait times at all the locations?

21 A. That is correct. I stated, our priority was to

22 process the voters inside the voting enclosure,

23 because you cannot -- it would be a guess when

24 voters are going to come. The great thing is they

25 did.

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1 Q. And so I think you said before, you didn't recall

2 whether you had responded to the -- to how long

3 the wait times were for each precinct on Election

4 Day; is that right?

5 A. With 200 precincts, I knew I would not be able to.

6 Q. And how did you convey that to the State Board of

7 Elections?

8 A. More than likely, a telephone call to

9 Mr. LiVecchi.

10 Q. Do you know which locations -- I guess I'll start

11 with early voting locations -- have the longest

12 wait times to vote in Wake County?

13 A. You had Cary Community Center, which is always

14 very busy. You had Optimist Park in North

15 Raleigh, which is always busy. Chavis was busy.

16 So those, to my recollection, have always

17 historically been the longest sites -- I mean, the

18 longest and highest number of voters.

19 Q. Did the wait times at those locations exceed an

20 hour?

21 A. Towards that last hour on Saturday, yes.

22 Q. What about earlier?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Never, or not consistently?

25 A. Not consistently.

162

1 Q. So sometimes it would have been over an hour at

2 those locations?

3 A. I -- I would not want to testify to that. I

4 wasn't there all the time.

5 Q. Do you know --

6 A. Many --

7 Q. -- which precincts had the longest lines on

8 Election Day?

9 A. No.

10 MR. FARR: Excuse me. Ms. Poucher, was

11 there something else you wanted to add?

12 THE WITNESS: The only thing I was going to

13 add in regards to where I was, if you went --

14 and -- and we had -- had different staff going to

15 different locations, as I said before. And up

16 until the end, I don't think people waited more

17 than five minutes.

18 BY MR. KAUL:

19 Q. Are you referring to early voting?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You don't think people waited more than five

22 minutes --

23 A. During that --

24 Q. -- at any location?

25 A. I said, at the location I was at.

163

1 Q. And which location was that?

2 A. Chavis.

3 Q. Okay. So you don't think that people waited more

4 than five minutes at Chavis until the end, you

5 said?

6 A. Towards those last two days, correct. It was --

7 it was a very -- walk in, walk up, go through.

8 Q. Okay. So just -- I just want to be clear about

9 what you're saying.

10 So until the Friday and Saturday before the

11 election, you don't think anybody waited more than

12 five minutes at the Chavis early voting location?

13 A. At the times that I was there.

14 Q. Okay. And when were you there?

15 A. It varied every day.

16 Q. Were you there during the after-work period?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you said before, that was the busiest time,

19 right?

20 A. No. That's the busiest time on Election Day.

21 Q. What's the busiest time on early voting days?

22 A. I don't know if we would have a busy time on early

23 voting days. I would not want to speculate on it.

24 Q. Do you know if any of the sites that had long

25 lines were near colleges or universities?

164

1 A. No.

2 Q. I'm sorry. Just to be clear, you mean, no, you

3 don't know, or, no, that there were not?

4 A. I wouldn't know where the college students would

5 have decided to go vote.

6 Q. You were asked some questions before about voter

7 registration efforts in high schools. Do you

8 remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you describe for me, first of all, what

11 those efforts consisted of while preregistration

12 was still in effect?

13 A. I'm not sure what you mean by that, sir. I don't

14 understand your question.

15 Q. Sure.

16 The County Board of Elections did voter

17 registration drives at high schools, and still

18 does that, right?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. So when you do those drives, what exactly do you

21 do? And let's start by focusing on what you did

22 when preregistration was still in effect.

23 A. The person in my office responsible for the

24 registration drives would meet with the

25 representative from Wake County Public Schools,

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1 who met with the teacher from each of the

2 individual high schools. They discussed the voter

3 registration procedures, what was needed.

4 The teachers went back to their schools,

5 conducted their program. And during the

6 parameters, if -- if it was 16, 17 at the time,

7 then the 16-, 17-year-olds would have also been

8 allowed to preregister. Then those forms would be

9 accumulated at the school and sent the -- sent to

10 the Board of Elections office for us to process.

11 Q. Okay. So did anybody from the County Board of

12 Elections actually go to the schools to

13 participate in the voter registration drives?

14 A. That, I can't remember if we -- if we did or not.

15 We met with the lead person, who then disseminated

16 the information to each of the schools.

17 Q. All right. And how often did you --

18 A. I --

19 Q. -- did those drives take place?

20 A. Generally -- for instance, because we're going up

21 to municipal elections, we do it now. Then you

22 try to do it again when the -- when the students

23 come back to school in the fall. Then we would

24 see about doing it prior to a primary when

25 students would be able to register. So it depends

166

1 a lot on the elections for that year, when the --

2 when it would be.

3 Q. Okay. And I think you said earlier that your

4 opinion was that getting somebody registered right

5 before an election was more conducive to getting

6 them to vote than preregistering them.

7 A. For -- for people that are in that age bracket,

8 yes, sir.

9 Q. And what -- what was that opinion based on?

10 A. The proximity to an election.

11 Q. Okay. You haven't done any analysis of, you know,

12 comparing people who preregistered to people who

13 registered shortly before an election, have you?

14 A. No, I have not.

15 Q. And you haven't tracked people who preregistered

16 to see whether they actually went on to vote,

17 right?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Okay. So you're -- you're sort of making an

20 assumption based on the proximity; is that fair?

21 A. That. And then -- and -- and if -- if you get a

22 report -- which I do not have and would not know.

23 But I think the report would tell you the number

24 of 16- and 17-year-olds that may have registered

25 in a county but registered in another county prior

167

1 to ever voting in the county they preregistered

2 at.

3 Q. And there are a number of regular voters who

4 also -- the regular registrants, I should say, who

5 register and then move to another county before

6 they've voted, correct?

7 A. I wouldn't have a way to track that either. That

8 would have to be another report. That is

9 something we don't track.

10 Q. And so when -- when you said before that there are

11 a number of times when a preregistrant moves and

12 registers again at college, you're -- you're

13 speculating about that, right?

14 A. In many instances, no. Because that student's

15 parent will send in for an absentee ballot for

16 that child to be sent to their home, and we then

17 have to inform the parent that the child has

18 registered in another jurisdiction. So that

19 would --

20 Q. Okay. And --

21 A. That would not be --

22 Q. How many --

23 A. -- speculation.

24 Q. How many times has -- have you done those sorts of

25 responses to absentee ballot requests?

168

1 A. That would be something that we do not track. I

2 have an absentee ballot team. When you have the

3 tens of thousands of requests that come in, things

4 of that nature, when that request came in, that

5 person would not be a voter. So we would let the

6 near relative know why we were not completing

7 their request for an absentee ballot.

8 Q. Do you have an approximation for how many times

9 that happened?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And you said sometimes students forgot they had

12 registered, and they'd go to a rally and register,

13 a college or something like that. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And was that based on a specific example,

17 or was that just sort of speculation for how it

18 might happen?

19 A. In 2012 -- and I can't give a number -- but we had

20 several voter registration applications four or

21 five times for the same person.

22 Q. You received four or five voter registration

23 applications for a single person, you said?

24 A. Yes. This past year, the maximum was 14

25 applications for one person.

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169

1 Q. Okay. And what --

2 How does that relate to preregistration?

3 A. They could have also tried registering at 16, 17

4 and then went to college in Wake County also and

5 registered. And then they went to another rally

6 someplace else and registered. And then they went

7 outside Walmart, and they registered there.

8 Q. Okay. But this person who -- this hypothetical --

9 First of all, this is a hypothetical person

10 we're talking about, right?

11 A. No. I'm talking about some that have happened.

12 Q. Well, the specifics you're giving about Walmart

13 and the rally and -- and these other places --

14 A. Those -- those are specific instances. I cannot

15 give you a name, no.

16 Q. Okay. And do you know whether those people you're

17 talking about had also preregistered?

18 A. Yes. That's why I said 2012. Because they were

19 still on the -- they were still in the system at

20 2012. They would not have been in our system in

21 2014 as a preregistered.

22 Q. Sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I understand.

23 So in 2012 --

24 Well, first of all, how many -- how many

25 voters are we talking about here?

170

1 A. There is a difference between the -- the number of

2 16-, 17-year-olds that completed several

3 applications versus regular 18-year-olds who

4 completed multiple registrations.

5 Q. How is there a difference?

6 A. Well, you were asking specifically about 16- and

7 17-year-olds who --

8 Q. Yeah. But I -- but you -- you said there's a

9 difference. But are there more 16- and

10 17-year-olds who did that or more 18-year-olds?

11 A. More 18-year-olds.

12 Q. Okay. There -- there are more 18-year-olds who

13 have completed multiple applications --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- than 16- and 17-year-olds?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Okay. I -- I don't understand how that's related

18 to preregistration.

19 A. That's what I tried to explain to you.

20 Q. I --

21 A. I've compared the two. I said it happens both

22 times. But if you -- if you register as a 16- or

23 17-year-old, you're now 18. I have you in my

24 voter records. You go to NC State and there is a

25 rally, and you register again. Then you go to a

171

1 concert, and you register again. Then you go to a

2 concert at Walnut Creek, and you register again.

3 So basically, yeah, it's four registrations.

4 They want to make sure before an election they're

5 registered.

6 Q. Okay. Now, how many instances were there in 2014

7 of people who had registered multiple times?

8 A. Hundreds.

9 Q. Okay. And how many who did it four times, like

10 you just described here, or more?

11 A. I should say thousands that did multiple and

12 hundreds that did four, and the most we had of one

13 person was 14.

14 All of this was brought up to the state

15 board. We were not the only county.

16 Q. Okay. So it's -- it's fair to say that

17 preregistration is playing a small role in any

18 issue with those multiple registrations, then,

19 right?

20 MR. FARR: Objection to the --

21 THE WITNESS: I cannot say that.

22 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

23 You can answer the question.

24 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I would not answer

25 that.

172

1 BY MR. KAUL:

2 Q. What -- what do you mean you would not answer

3 that?

4 A. I can't quantify between the two, because

5 preregistration ended. So any -- any comparison

6 at this time would have to be pre-2012, and I'm --

7 and that's several elections ago.

8 Q. Are you familiar with how the DMV --

9 Well, first of all, a 17-year-old who's

10 going to be 18 by the next election is permitted

11 to register to vote, right?

12 A. A certain number of days before. A certain number

13 of days before the -- before the deadline, you

14 can -- that person can register.

15 Q. And do you know how the DMV handled voter

16 registration applications from 17-year-olds who

17 are going to turn 18 in 2014?

18 A. I would hope they handle it to -- though --

19 through the directives from the State Board --

20 State Board of Elections. But I would not know.

21 Q. When a voter registration is submitted to your

22 office, can you just walk us through the steps

23 that your office takes to process that

24 application?

25 A. Yes. The first thing that you have to do, of

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173

1 course, is date-stamp. You open it. It is put in

2 batches of type or location of where that person

3 registered. Because for NVRA, we have to track

4 what type of agency it is.

5 Then the batches are scanned into the voter

6 scan, which is one module of the state software.

7 Staff would then do the data entry. The data

8 entry then goes into review. Separate person

9 reviews the data to make sure that all of the

10 information was typed correctly.

11 Once that is done, all the information,

12 including the image and signature, goes into Voter

13 View, which is the voter registration system, and

14 a voter card is generated.

15 Q. And have you done any analysis or review to

16 determine how long -- how many hours are devoted

17 to a -- a voter registration, on average?

18 A. I have not. But I'm sure somewhere we have it.

19 Q. Do you have an approximation?

20 A. No, because everyone -- you -- it would be an

21 estimate, because everyone is different.

22 Some registrations come -- can come in

23 typed. Others can be written so poorly, that it

24 may take three people to look at it to determine

25 what the voter's name is.

174

1 Q. Okay. And you mentioned some are written really

2 poorly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Has your staff had more difficulty in properly

5 understanding what's written on applications that

6 are submitted by mail rather than in person?

7 A. One submitted in person could also be handwritten.

8 Q. When they're submitted in person, does the person

9 receiving the application sometimes point out

10 difficulties that he or she might have reading it?

11 A. No. With the volume of applications that can come

12 over the counter, it is basically perused by the

13 staff to make sure all of the required information

14 is on the form, and then it is put in the area

15 for -- to be processed.

16 Q. Okay. And the process you described before with

17 respect to entering the data and to prove that it

18 is correctly entered --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- there's been a confirmation sent out

21 afterwards; is that right?

22 A. No. It is a voter verification. It's a voter

23 card, and that is for address verification.

24 Q. Okay. And is that an --

25 The sending out of the voter verification,

175

1 is that an automated process?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Okay. So that the portion of the process that

4 actually involves, you know, human waver is

5 entering the data and then checking the data; is

6 that right?

7 A. Well, it's a manual process, from the minute it

8 comes in our office, to opening up the -- the

9 form, getting it in the proper -- proper batches

10 for the agencies, scanning it, doing the data

11 entry, and then doing the review. So it's -- it's

12 a multi-step process.

13 Q. Okay. So literally, open -- opening the envelope

14 is one step. Putting the envelope in the

15 correct -- you said pile for the agency?

16 A. Yes. For the National Voter Registration Act, we

17 have to keep track of where that voter registered

18 to vote.

19 Q. Okay. So putting it in the pile for the proper

20 agency, scanning it, entering the data, and then

21 confirming that the data was correctly entered; is

22 that right?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Okay. Are there any other steps that go in --

25 into that on a manual basis?

176

1 A. If the voter registration application is2 incomplete, the person doing the data entry at3 that time sends it over to what is referred to as4 the "IQ." Then the staff that is assigned to IQ5 will pull up that voter registration application,6 see what is missing, and then print the letter7 associated with the missing information, print out8 the letter, print out the application as it is9 with the missing information, highlight on the

10 voter registration application form the missing11 information, fold the letter, put it in the12 envelope with a return envelope and mail it to the13 voter.14 Q. Okay. If the voter registration application is15 properly filled out, though, the manual portion of16 the process -- I understand it's probably17 segmented into different steps. But if it were18 all to happen sort of continuously, that can all19 be taken care of in a matter of, what, 10 or 1520 minutes?21 MR. FARR: Objection.22 THE WITNESS: Each of that -- every23 application is different. So to do a test of it24 is one thing. To say something without -- start25 to finish, I don't -- I don't want to guess.

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177

1 MR. KAUL: Okay. Can we -- if we go off

2 the record, I'm hoping to confer with my

3 colleagues for a few minutes. And I think we have

4 a few more questions, but then we should wrap up

5 our end of it shortly.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 3:09 p.m.

8 * * *

9 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

10 proceedings from 3:09 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.)

11 * * *

12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 3:15 p.m.

13 * * *

14 EXAMINATION

15 BY MS. RIGGS:

16 Q. Ms. Poucher, Mr. Kaul is actually done, and I just

17 have --

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. -- one question I forgot to ask you about.

20 Did you ever talk to a Dr. Jeffrey Fernandez

21 about monitoring early voting sites during the

22 November 2014 election?

23 A. The name is not familiar to me.

24 Q. Okay. He said he's a defense expert who was

25 monitoring lines at early voting sites, and he

178

1 said he -- he worked at two Wake County sites,

2 Chavis and Herbert C. Young.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Do you remember him now?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And he said you told him which early voting

7 sites to monitor.

8 A. I -- I told him that -- I didn't tell him the two

9 to monitor. The question was asked, "What will be

10 your two busiest sites?"

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. And my response was, "Chavis and Cary."

13 Q. And did you tell him which days would be the

14 busiest?

15 A. No. I believe he was here for a specific day.

16 Q. Okay. And do you know, were those the busiest

17 sites on the days he was there?

18 A. The last -- no, the last Saturday was the busiest

19 days.

20 Q. And do you know, was he there that -- that day?

21 A. That, I don't know.

22 Q. Okay. During any of the breaks, did you speak

23 with anyone about your deposition testimony today?

24 A. No. I -- I talked to Scott Warren, because we

25 wanted to find out --

179

1 Q. Don't --

2 MR. WARREN: Wait.

3 MS. RIGGS: Don't --

4 MR. WARREN: You -- you don't -- you don't

5 have to say anything.

6 THE WITNESS: That's right. Okay.

7 MS. RIGGS: Yes.

8 MR. WARREN: That's all privileged.

9 THE WITNESS: I -- I talked with Mr. Warren

10 about a question that you asked.

11 BY MS. RIGGS:

12 Q. Okay. But not about any of the questions you were

13 asked --

14 A. Uh-uh.

15 Q. -- in the deposition?

16 Okay. Sorry.

17 MS. RIGGS: Tom, pass the witness.

18 MR. FARR: No questions.

19 MS. RIGGS: No? All right.

20 Thank you, Ms. Poucher.

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

22 deposition. The time is 3:17 p.m.

23 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]

24 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 3:17 P.M.]

25

180

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T OF D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, CHERIE R. POUCHER, declare under the penalties

4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have

5 read the foregoing 182 pages, which contain a correct

6 transcription of answers made by me to the question

7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or

8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached

9 hereto, if any.

10 Signed this, the _____ day of _________,

11 2015.

12

13

14 __________________________

15 CHERIE R. POUCHER

16

17 State of:______________

18 County of:_____________

19 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ______ day

20 of _____________, 2015.

21

22 __________________________

23 Notary Public

24 My commission expires:____________________

25

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46 (Pages 181 to 182)

181

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases

3 Witness Name: CHERIE R. POUCHER

4 Deposition Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2015

5 Page/Line Reads Should Read

6 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

7 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

8 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

9 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

10 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

11 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

12 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

13 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

14 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

15 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

16 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

17 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

18 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

19 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

20 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

21 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

22 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

23 ____/____|_____________________|___________________

24 _______________________ _________________

25 Signature Date

182

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )3

4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the

6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify

7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability

10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.13 I do further certify that I am neither14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise18 interested in the outcome of said action.19 This the 28th day of April, 2015.20

21 ____________________________22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR23 Notary Public No. 2002091005324

25

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CANDI L. RHINEHART April 30, 2015

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1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

DEPOSITION OF

CANDI L. RHINEHART

2

1 DEPOSITION OF

2 CANDI L. RHINEHART

3 ___________________________________________________

4 2:38 p.m.

5 Thursday, April 30, 2015

6 ___________________________________________________

7

RENAISSANCE ASHEVILLE HOTEL

8

31 WOODFIN STREET

9

ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA

10

11

12

13 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:4

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE5 BY: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.6 Washington, DC 20530

(800) 305-18407 avner.shapiro@usdoj.gov8

Counsel for Defendant Patrick Lloyd McCrory:9

BOWERS LAW OFFICE10 BY: BUTCH BOWERS, ESQ.

1419 Pendleton Street11 Columbia, SC 29201

(803) 753-109912 butch@butchbowers.com13

Counsel for Duke Intervenors:14

POYNER SPRUILL LLP15 BY: JOHN W. O'HALE, ESQ.

(Via telephone)16 301 Fayetteville Street

Suite 190017 Raleigh, NC 27601

(919) 783-280218 johale@poynerspruill.com19

Reported By:20

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS21 AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER

BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR22 BRUCE WEEKLY, Videographer

4208 Six Forks Road23 Suite 1000

Raleigh, NC 2760924 (919) 649-9998

denise@discoverydepo.com25

4

1 I N D E X2 PAGE3 EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO 64 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOWERS 215 EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO 606

7 E X H I B I T S8

RHINEHART9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

10

EXHIBIT 1 E-mails, Subject: Voter Fraud 4311 Actions needed now12 EXHIBIT 2 E-mails, Subject: Voter Fraud 48

Actions needed now13

EXHIBIT 3 E-mail dated 11/2/04, Subject: 5014 Possible absentee fraud15 EXHIBIT 4 E-mails, Subject: 54

Undeliverable: FW: NC voter16 fraud revised addition17

18 (The exhibits are included with the19 transcript.)20

21

22

23

24

25

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2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 * * * * * *

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the videotaped

4 deposition of Candi Rhinehart in the matter of the

5 NAACP, et al., versus McCrory, et al., and LWV, et

6 al., versus North Carolina, et al., and U.S.A.

7 versus North Carolina, et al., filed in the United

8 States District Court, Middle District of North

9 Carolina.

10 Today is Thursday, April 30th, 2015. This

11 deposition is being held in the Renaissance

12 Asheville Hotel located at 31 Woodfin Street,

13 Asheville, North Carolina.

14 My name is Bruce Weekly. I'm the video

15 specialist. The court reporter is Cindy Hayden.

16 We are now on the record. The time on the monitor

17 is 1438.

18 Counsel will now introduce themselves and

19 whom they represent.

20 MR. SHAPIRO: I am Avner Shapiro. I

21 represent the United States, which is a plaintiff

22 in this matter.

23 MR. BOWERS: And my name is Butch Bowers.

24 I'm a lawyer from Columbia, South Carolina, and I

25 represent Governor McCrory in this matter.

6

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter

2 please swear in the witness.

3 CANDI L. RHINEHART,

4 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the

5 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,

6 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,

7 testified as follows:

8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You may begin.

9 EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Rhinehart.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Could you please state your full name for the

14 record.

15 A. Candi Lynn Rhinehart.

16 Q. And where do you reside?

17 A. Currently I am at 18 Mockingbird Lane in Marshall,

18 North Carolina.

19 Q. And is Marshall in Madison County?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And where do you -- where do you work?

22 A. I work at Madison Middle School.

23 Q. And what's your occupation?

24 A. I'm a school counselor.

25 Q. Okay. And do you have a bachelor's from Elon

7

1 University in which you obtained in 2003?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that right?

4 Okay. And what did you study at Elon?

5 A. Elon.

6 Q. Elon. My apologies.

7 A. My -- my major was political science and minor in

8 sociology and criminal justice.

9 Q. Okay. And not long after you obtained your

10 undergraduate degree I understand you got a job at

11 the State Board of Elections; is that correct?

12 A. Yeah, approximately a year and a half after

13 graduation.

14 Q. Okay. And from when to when did you work at the

15 Board of Elections?

16 A. From October of 2004 through I think it was June

17 of 2012.

18 Q. And what positions did you hold there?

19 A. I was an investigator and certification outreach

20 assistant.

21 Q. And for how long were you an investigator,

22 roughly?

23 A. It was around two or three years, in that part.

24 Q. Okay. So was that the beginning from 2004 to --

25 A. Yeah, the very beginning was investigator to like

8

1 2006 or '7, yeah.

2 Q. And you said you worked there at the State Board

3 of Elections until 2012. Why did you leave in

4 2012?

5 A. I had started my master's in 2006, and at that

6 time in 2012 I just had a -- I'd had a son in

7 November, and so by that time I quit so I could

8 finish my internship and take care of him for a

9 little while before I started my internship, which

10 started that August.

11 Q. So let me see if I understand this. You said you

12 started a master's. Was it a master's in another

13 field?

14 A. Yeah, master's in school counseling.

15 Q. So in 2006 you decided you wanted to be a school

16 counselor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you were in graduate school?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. While you were at the State Board of Elections?

21 A. At the State Board of Elections, yeah. I worked

22 full time and went to school.

23 Q. Okay. Great. So I want to talk to you, if I may,

24 about the work you did as an investigator for the

25 first sort of two to three years that you were at

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3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 the State Board of Elections. In general terms,

2 what type of work did you do while you were an

3 investigator?

4 A. There were some investigations that I helped with

5 and, you know, a few -- a few things that we

6 investigated, but there wasn't that many really

7 investigating. I did a lot of administrative

8 duties; like checking provisional ballots was a

9 big one, and I started helping with certification

10 even then and doing some of those duties, too.

11 Q. Okay. And you stated that your job title was as

12 an investigator.

13 A. Investigator.

14 Q. Do you know why you were spending only part of

15 your time doing investigations and the rest of the

16 time doing administrative work?

17 A. There wasn't that much stuff coming in most of the

18 time. If, you know, Marshall -- there was me and

19 Marshall in there to do it, Mr. Tutor, and I would

20 help him do some things, but he would do it or

21 whatever, but there wasn't really that much for me

22 to do.

23 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, you were

24 working with another more -- another investigator?

25 A. Yeah.

10

1 Q. Was he a more senior investigator?

2 A. He was. He had been there for -- I don't know how

3 long he had been there before I had been there.

4 At least five or six years I think, maybe more.

5 Q. And that was Marshall Tutor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was he the only other investigator?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And so you said that you didn't have that

10 much stuff to do. Do you mean you didn't have

11 that many cases to investigate?

12 A. Yeah, yeah, we didn't get that many cases really

13 to do.

14 Q. Okay. And what type of cases did you and

15 Mr. Marshall investigate?

16 A. There's a -- there are a couple that I really

17 remember, you know. There was --

18 Q. Let me stop you. Broadly what types of categories

19 of cases?

20 A. Just like anything to do with voting. We were in

21 the administration division. So anything to do

22 with administration of election if it was wrong

23 kind of we would -- like with the voters, you

24 know, like any kind of voter fraud, like that, or

25 somebody voting and they weren't who they said

11

1 they were or, you know, dead people voting; you

2 know, everybody likes to bring that one up, but we

3 never really saw that, but that was one of the --

4 you know, we've heard about before.

5 Q. Okay. And did that include campaign finance cases

6 or --

7 A. No. We have a campaign finance division, and they

8 would handle their -- their investigations in

9 theirs, unless -- there was -- I can remember one

10 time helping, and I think it was when I was in

11 certification and outreach even, but there was

12 just so much paperwork to go through that they

13 kind of pulled lots of us in there to help go

14 through the paperwork, but those campaign finances

15 were handled by that division.

16 Q. Okay. So you didn't do all the campaign finance

17 cases. Is there any other kind of case that you

18 wouldn't handle?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were there any other investigators at the Board of

21 Elections besides you and Marshall?

22 A. No. We were the only two.

23 Q. Okay. And I think you mentioned already that the

24 type of -- one type of case you handled were cases

25 involving allegations of voter fraud; is that

12

1 right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. How did cases involving allegations of voter fraud

4 come to you?

5 A. A lot of times it would be from either the County

6 Board of Elections because we're over all hundred

7 County Board of Elections; so they would report to

8 us, individuals just calling in and saying they

9 saw something or whatever or the parties, and then

10 sometimes there were some things like felon lists

11 and stuff like that we would have to double-check

12 and do.

13 Q. Okay. Are these felon lists that you could get

14 from the Department of Corrections --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- and then analyze --

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. -- and compare with your own data?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Okay. And so in the two or three years that you

21 were working as an investigator, roughly how many

22 cases did you work on?

23 A. I really don't remember that many, and I would say

24 like ten or so. I mean, there really weren't many

25 that I did.

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13

1 Q. And why so few?

2 A. We really didn't have that many for that, and like

3 I said, you know, most of the time -- a lot of

4 times I was doing other things, too, because there

5 wasn't much for me to do.

6 Q. Uh-huh. How did you go about investigating the

7 cases that you did have on your -- on your docket?

8 A. Marshall and I would kind of, you know, work

9 together and figure out who we needed to talk to

10 like be it, you know, whoever called and whoever

11 is being alleged or the county boards and whoever

12 else remaining to talk to, and we would call them

13 and talk to them or a lot of times Marshall would

14 go and visit the people and go to the places.

15 Q. And how closely did you work with Mr. Marshall?

16 A. Well, everything I did was, you know -- we -- I

17 worked with him because he was like my senior

18 person, so we were pretty close.

19 Q. Was he aware of everything that was happening in

20 your case?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. Okay. What can you remember about the roughly I

23 think you said ten cases that you investigated?

24 A. There's -- you know, it's hard to remember 12

25 years ago, but, you know, there was a couple cases

14

1 that stick out in my mind, and like one of them

2 was -- it was a voter misinformation case really.

3 It was a man had done a sign and he said

4 Republicans vote Tuesday, Democrats Wednesday and

5 everybody else Thursday. So that was one of them,

6 and that just stuck out, because when I met the

7 man, I felt really bad for him because I knew he

8 wasn't mentally there. So I felt bad we were even

9 investigating that one. And I'm trying to think

10 of another one. I can't think right now.

11 Q. Okay. With regard to the cases that you don't

12 remember --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- you know, how serious were those cases?

15 A. They must not have been too --

16 MR. BOWERS: Object -- object to form. How

17 can she remember -- how can she testify as to

18 something she doesn't remember.

19 MR. SHAPIRO: Let me rephrase it.

20 MR. BOWERS: Sure.

21 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

22 Q. What do you -- what do you recall generally about

23 the types of cases you were --

24 A. That I worked?

25 Q. -- investigating? Even if you don't remember the

15

1 specifics.

2 A. Okay. So sometimes like -- and, you know, mainly

3 it happened during election times because that's

4 when everybody is, you know, and they would call,

5 and sometimes people maybe alleged that there is

6 some voter fraud or something, perhaps that a

7 voter voted twice, and when we would investigate

8 and go back and we look at poll books and we look

9 at ballots and we talked to everybody, it would be

10 that poll worker errors would be generally the

11 problem like -- so if -- if I'm doing the poll

12 book and I mark out a name and then that person

13 comes in and they're already marked out, and I'm

14 like, "You've already voted." And they're like,

15 "No, I haven't." The poll worker had marked the

16 wrong person out, either, you know, the person

17 above or below they had marked the wrong name.

18 Q. In any of the cases that you investigated, do you

19 recall ever finding any evidence that would

20 suggest voter fraud?

21 A. Not that I did.

22 Q. In any of the cases that you investigated, did you

23 ever find any evidence that a voter may have

24 engaged in deception or in some way knowingly cast

25 a vote -- voted when he was not entitled to vote?

16

1 A. Not that I recall. No.

2 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of any case

3 involving a voter intentionally impersonating

4 someone else at the poll?

5 A. No, not intentionally. Un-hun. Or not

6 impersonated at all.

7 Q. You have no -- no recollection of any such case?

8 A. Un-hun.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned that you recall working on

10 cases where there was a poll worker error --

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. -- where there was an allegation of voter

13 impersonation at the polls; is that right?

14 A. Like a double -- or somebody trying to vote twice,

15 yeah.

16 Q. Okay. And -- and you -- and you stated that you

17 thought it was poll worker error. How could you

18 reach that conclusion?

19 A. Well, like we would look at poll books and we

20 would look at the, you know -- we would talk to

21 all the poll workers and we would talk to the

22 person that had voted and then the other person,

23 like whoever was involved in that -- or that error

24 and then the County Board of Elections, too. So

25 we just kind of interview everybody around that

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17

1 that could be involved.

2 Q. So how confident are you that these cases really

3 involved error as opposed to malfeasance?

4 A. Very confident.

5 Q. Now, you were working with Mr. Marshall, and as I

6 understand it, there were some cases that he was

7 working on where you were not working with him; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Right. Yeah.

10 Q. Did he ever discuss any of his cases with you?

11 A. Yeah, sometimes he did.

12 Q. Do you remember anything about any of those cases?

13 A. There was one, and I think it was after I had

14 moved positions, and it was someone had voted

15 twice, I think, and I really remember it being

16 like around Winston-Salem, Greensboro area, but

17 come to find out it was an elderly person who had

18 voted -- I think they may have voted absentee and

19 then somebody came around to take people voting,

20 and they got on that bus. You know, they wanted

21 to go, and then they voted in person, too; so they

22 voted twice, but they didn't remember voting that

23 first time, so it was more of a -- just a -- I

24 don't know, you know, if they had something, you

25 know, dementia or something like that, but they

18

1 were an elderly person.

2 Q. Uh-huh. Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever

3 mentioning to you a case where he suspected a

4 voter was intentionally impersonating another

5 voter at the polls?

6 A. I don't recall any.

7 Q. Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever mentioning to you

8 a case where he thought a voter was engaging in

9 some type of voter fraud?

10 MR. BOWERS: Object to the form. Calls for

11 hearsay.

12 Answer if you can.

13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

14 Q. Go ahead and answer.

15 A. Say I don't recall; is that -- or what? Which

16 one? I'm sorry. You got me --

17 Q. Do you have --

18 MR. SHAPIRO: Actually, why don't we

19 just -- if the court reporter can -- there you

20 are. Could you just read what my question was?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, please.

22 (The following question was read back:

23 Q: Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever

24 mentioning to you a case where he thought a voter

25 was engaging in some type of voter fraud?)

19

1 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.

2 Answer if you can, please.

3 THE WITNESS: No.

4 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

5 Q. What do you recall, if anything, about

6 Mr. Marshall ever saying anything or making any

7 comments about a case involving voter fraud?

8 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.

9 MR. SHAPIRO: Let me -- that's a bad

10 question. Let me strike the question.

11 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

12 Q. What do you recall about Mr. Marshall ever

13 bringing to your attention a case where he

14 believed a voter had engaged in deception and was

15 knowingly trying to cast a vote that he wasn't

16 entitled to -- to cast?

17 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.

18 You can answer. That was just different

19 words, but still calls for hearsay. You can

20 answer if you can.

21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any cases

22 where he had like the evidence that he told me

23 about, you know, that said like I've got this case

24 that I know is voter fraud. I don't -- and he --

25 you know, we talked every day about stuff, and he

20

1 would tell me about cases, too, but -- yeah.

2 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

3 Q. Okay. How good a job do you think Mr. Marshall

4 did at investigating cases of -- of potential

5 voter fraud?

6 A. I think he did a very good job.

7 Q. And why do you say that?

8 MR. BOWERS: Objection.

9 Go ahead and answer if you can.

10 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm sorry. What's the basis

11 for --

12 MR. BOWERS: Foundation. We haven't even

13 talked about her experience. How do we know she

14 has any clue as to whether he's doing a good job

15 or a bad job.

16 MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. Thank you.

17 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

18 Q. How long did you work with Mr. Marshall?

19 A. Two to three years as investigator, but then eight

20 overall.

21 Q. And during that time did you have the opportunity

22 to observe how Mr. Marshall was doing his work?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. And were you working with Mr. Marshall closely on

25 a regular basis for part of that time?

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21

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Okay. So, going back to my original question, why

3 did you think Mr. Marshall did his job well?

4 A. He was very thorough with call -- figuring out who

5 we needed to talk to and making sure that we

6 talked to those people, and he would even talk to

7 them multiple times if need be, and then he would

8 also -- if there was any question or anything, he

9 would always check with our general counsel and

10 see, you know, if he needed to do more or what he

11 needed to do.

12 Q. And Ms. Rhinehart, how confident are you that the

13 cases you and -- and Mr. Marshall closed out did

14 not merit further investigation?

15 A. I'm very confident.

16 MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Thank you. No

17 further questions.

18 * * *

19 EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. BOWERS:

21 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, we met earlier. Do you need to

22 take a break or are you okay?

23 A. I'm good.

24 Q. Okay. Good. My name is Butch Bowers. I'm a

25 lawyer from South Carolina, and I've been retained

22

1 to represent Governor McCrory in this litigation.

2 You probably did this at the outside and I

3 just missed it. Can you state your full name for

4 the record.

5 A. Candi Lynn Rhinehart.

6 Q. Okay. Where did you grow up?

7 A. In Marshall, North Carolina.

8 Q. And you've mentioned this, I think, but what

9 county is that?

10 A. Madison County.

11 Q. Okay. Is that where you live right now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And what's your date of birth?

14 A. /81.

15 Q. And are you registered to vote?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. When did you register to vote; do you

18 recall?

19 A. I think when I was 18.

20 Q. Okay. So --

21 MR. SHAPIRO: Oh, shoot. I did it again.

22 MR. BOWERS: Can we go off the record a

23 second?

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We're going

25 off the record. The time on the monitor is 1457.

23

1 * * *

2 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

3 proceedings from 2:57 p.m. to 3:02 p.m.)

4 * * *

5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going on the

6 record. The time on the monitor is 1502.

7 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Hale [sic].

8 MR. Bowers: John.

9 MR. O'HALE: Hello. Yeah, this is John

10 O'Hale, O apostrophe H-A-L-E, and I represent the

11 Duke intervenors.

12 MR. BOWERS: Okay. Got it. Thanks, John.

13 MR. O'HALE: Thank you.

14 BY MR. BOWERS:

15 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, to pick back up where we were --

16 where we were just talking, and I'll pronounce it

17 correctly; you went to Elon --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- right --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- for college? What town is that in?

22 A. Burlington.

23 Q. And what county is Burlington in?

24 A. Alamance.

25 Q. Alamance County, okay. What's the Elon nickname?

24

1 A. Phoenix now.

2 Q. The Phoenix.

3 A. When I started they were the Fighting Christians.

4 Q. Right. The Phoenix. Did you go to Elon

5 immediately after high school?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Did you work while you were in college at

8 Elon?

9 A. I did waitressing for a couple months. I did --

10 what was that thing called? The survey -- the

11 political survey we call and do. I always

12 volunteered and did it. Elon always does a big,

13 you know, political survey to see the climate kind

14 of thing, and I always volunteered at that, but

15 that was it.

16 Q. That work, was that partisan or nonpartisan?

17 A. It was through school, so it was just broad

18 questions.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. So -- they did it through the political science

21 department. So it was more like a study kind of

22 thing for us.

23 Q. Okay. And then you graduate Elon in 2003?

24 A. '3, uh-huh.

25 Q. Okay. And then did you have a job --

REDACTED

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25

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. -- before --

3 A. I worked -- I came back home and I worked with --

4 I think it was called Agribusiness Center for the

5 county, and what we did a lot of was making

6 websites for local businesses so they could get

7 their products out and what they did.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And for free we made them for them.

10 Q. And then you got hired by the State Board of

11 Elections in --

12 A. In October of 2004.

13 Q. And your initial job I think you testified for the

14 first two to three years you were an investigator?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it's -- you correct me if I'm wrong, but it

17 sounds like, based on your testimony, you had zero

18 experience as an elections investigator?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Okay. How did you get that job? I'm serious.

21 How did you get that job?

22 A. Well, I had -- I think I applied before for

23 something there, too. And I knew -- we knew the

24 chair of the board, and he helped me, too.

25 Q. The chair of the state board?

26

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. What was his name?

3 A. Larry Leake.

4 Q. How did you know Larry Leake?

5 A. I grew up -- he's in Madison County.

6 Q. Okay. Would it be fair for me to say that he

7 helped you get that job?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say that without Mr. Leake's

10 help you wouldn't have gotten that job?

11 A. Probably. I probably wouldn't have applied for it

12 either.

13 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked in the polls like as a

14 poll watcher or a poll manager or elections

15 person?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. So you've never checked in voters?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. How did you become aware of this lawsuit

20 that brings us here today?

21 A. I got a call from Mr. Shapiro.

22 Q. When did you get that call?

23 A. A month or so ago. I don't really remember. It's

24 been a little bit.

25 Q. Okay.

27

1 A. Not that long ago but --

2 Q. Okay. And I should have asked you this earlier.

3 Are you represented by a lawyer here at this

4 deposition today?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Okay. So what did Mr. Shapiro tell you when he

7 called you?

8 A. That -- that he was working with the civil rights

9 division or whatever, and they had a case against

10 the State of North Carolina about the house bill

11 whatever number it is.

12 Q. 589?

13 A. About the voter ID, yeah. I was thinking five

14 something, about the voter ID law and just wanted

15 to ask me some questions.

16 Q. Do you know how he got your name?

17 A. I think Mr. Tutor.

18 Q. Marshall Tutor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is Marshall Tutor doing these days?

21 A. He's still an investigator at the Board of

22 Elections.

23 Q. Okay. What did you do to -- what did you do to

24 prepare for today's deposition?

25 A. I spoke to Mr. Shapiro.

28

1 Q. Okay. What did y'all talk about?

2 A. Talked about what I did, like what was my job,

3 what did I do while I was there, what kind of

4 cases did I investigate and how did I do that.

5 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted you to say?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did he suggest to you what he wanted you to say?

8 A. No.

9 Q. At any point in the phone call did he suggest what

10 he might want you to testify to?

11 A. Just what -- what my job was and how -- like how

12 that looked kind of, what my job was and what I

13 did while I was there.

14 Q. Okay. So you started in 2004 --

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. -- as an investigator --

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. -- with, as we've established, zero experience in

19 investigating election fraud, correct?

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. Is that yes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Had you had any -- any experience in

24 investigating anything --

25 A. No.

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29

1 Q. -- prior to that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Nothing. Okay. Did they give you any training on

4 how to investigate voter fraud?

5 A. Just kind of put me with Marshall to follow him

6 and work with him closely.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. My mentor I guess in a way.

9 Q. Okay. So they never sent you to any classes?

10 A. No.

11 Q. They never sent you to any -- did they -- did they

12 send you to any seminars?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Anything on the Internet?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Any -- any books?

17 A. A law book in front of me.

18 Q. A law book?

19 A. Yeah, the election law. Have you ever seen that

20 book?

21 Q. I have.

22 A. It's thinned down a lot though from when I first

23 started. It got thinner.

24 Q. All right. So had you ever read the election

25 law --

30

1 A. Prior?

2 Q. -- prior to taking that job?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. How did you -- how did you even know what

5 to look for your first year or so on the job?

6 A. I just -- like I said, most of the time I was

7 with -- when we would talk to people, just get

8 their statements, you know. Marshall would kind

9 of brief me what he wanted me to ask, and I would

10 just ask them and take the notes, and then we

11 would get together and kind of see what we had.

12 And then if, you know, further was needed,

13 Marshall may do it or have me call back if I

14 missed something.

15 Q. So during your time at the State Board of

16 Elections when you were -- when your job title was

17 investigator, were you really more of an

18 administrative person?

19 A. A lot of administrative stuff.

20 Q. Okay. And was it -- so Mr. Tutor was really the

21 investigator, correct?

22 A. He -- I mean, I was when -- you know, when there

23 was enough stuff to do, like if I was needed

24 there, or they would pull me if I really wasn't

25 because a lot of times we didn't have much to do.

31

1 Q. Okay. I'll get to that in a minute. But I'm

2 still focused on your experience and what you did

3 while you were there. I think you testified, I

4 just want to confirm, that the first time you

5 heard about this lawsuit was when Mr. Shapiro

6 called you about a month ago, correct?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Okay. Were you aware that House Bill 589 had been

9 signed into law?

10 A. I had heard -- I think I had heard that on the

11 news, yeah.

12 Q. Do you recall when you heard that?

13 A. Was it last year sometime maybe? Yeah.

14 Q. I'll tell you later but --

15 A. Yeah, I don't know.

16 Q. This is your deposition, not mine.

17 A. Yeah, I don't -- I don't keep up with election

18 stuff at all.

19 Q. Okay. So even -- even though you worked at the

20 State Board of Elections -- let me finish.

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. You worked at the state Board of Elections for --

23 A. Eight years.

24 Q. -- eight years and you finished working there

25 three years ago, you don't keep up with elections

32

1 at all?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Do you know what information voters have to

4 provide today to be able to vote under House Bill

5 589?

6 A. What that requires?

7 Q. Uh-huh.

8 A. An ID.

9 Q. What kind of an ID?

10 A. Some kind of photo ID. You can get one at the DMV

11 if it's not a license. Are they providing -- is

12 the state providing other ID yet? I know that was

13 part of it when I was there, the talk about it,

14 how we would provide that other ID because they

15 were talking about it before I left.

16 Q. Okay. Did you vote in 2014?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that the photo ID

19 was required to vote in 2014?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When is it required?

22 A. Is it -- what year -- next year.

23 Q. Okay. When your job title was investigator who

24 was the governor of the state at that time; do you

25 know?

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33

1 A. I don't know who was the first. Bev was in there

2 at the end. I don't --

3 Q. That's Bev Perdue, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did -- when did she take office; do you

6 recall?

7 A. No. I do not keep up with politics. That's

8 strange.

9 Q. When -- when did she leave office; do you know?

10 A. She -- she lost in the 2012 election, so 2013.

11 Q. Okay. But you don't know who the governor was

12 when you were an investigator?

13 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Irrelevant.

14 BY MR. BOWERS:

15 Q. You can answer.

16 A. I know Hunt was in there. Is that then? That's

17 all I can remember is those two.

18 Q. Okay. Was -- when you first became an

19 investigator, Larry Leake was the chairman of that

20 board?

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. Yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Had he -- had he held political office

25 before; do you know?

34

1 A. Not that I'm aware of.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Just on that board.

4 Q. Okay. Who were the other board members; do you

5 recall?

6 A. I don't know their names, no.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know if they were appointed by a

8 Democrat or a Republican?

9 A. Well, when -- while I was there it was all

10 Democratic governor. So it was three Democrats

11 and two Republicans.

12 Q. Okay. But you don't remember who the three

13 Democrats were?

14 A. Un-hun.

15 Q. Was Leake one of the Democrats?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Are you a Democrat?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you consider yourself a Democrat?

20 A. Un-hun.

21 Q. Is that no?

22 A. No.

23 Q. We need you to say yes or no.

24 A. Sorry.

25 Q. That's okay. I should have asked you this

35

1 earlier. Have you ever given a deposition before?

2 A. No.

3 Q. This is your first time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Never had to be in front of a lawyer before at

7 all.

8 Q. Okay. So Mr. Leake, your -- the guy that got you

9 the job or helped you get the job is a Democrat?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And chairman of the board?

12 A. He was.

13 Q. What's he doing now; do you know?

14 A. He's a lawyer.

15 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself a Republican?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you apolitical? Is that yes?

18 A. I'm registered unaffiliated.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. So I go by the person.

21 Q. Okay. But it is fair to say that the board -- the

22 majority of the board when you were investigator

23 were Democrats?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. Okay.

36

1 A. Because it was a Democratic governor, so then the

2 majority changes according to the governor.

3 Q. Okay. Who was the director at the time?

4 A. Gary Bartlett.

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Bartlett is no longer there, is he?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know who the new director is?

8 A. Kim.

9 Q. Kim?

10 A. Westbrook Strach.

11 Q. Okay. I think she pronounces it Strach, but you

12 were close.

13 Did you work with her when she was -- when

14 she was -- before she became the director?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Okay. Do you recall what her job title was?

17 A. She was campaign finance director.

18 Q. Okay. You referred earlier in your testimony when

19 Mr. Shapiro was asking you questions to doing --

20 to working on provisional ballots and

21 certifications; do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let's unpack that and talk about each one

24 individually. What did you do with provisional

25 ballots when you were an investigator?

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37

1 A. That 2014 -- I mean 2004 election happened like

2 less than a month when I got there, so one of the

3 first things I had to do with provisional ballots

4 was what the county would do they would have a

5 list of names that voted provisionally, and they

6 would fax it to us, and then we would fax it to

7 the DMV for them to check their records to make

8 sure that the person hadn't registered at the DMV

9 or if they had; then the DMV would fax it back to

10 us, and then I would fax it back to the county.

11 So I was like a -- I guess the middleman of the

12 provisional, so just faxing it back and forth.

13 Q. Okay. And what about with certifications?

14 A. I helped with some trainings and stuff. We do

15 trainings -- several trainings a year according to

16 which year it is, if it's an even or odd number

17 year. It's how many trainings there are and it's

18 trainings for the county board; it's like all

19 hundred county boards come.

20 Q. And what kind of training would you provide?

21 A. There is -- there's some like some core competency

22 classes they have to have and different things

23 like election law, and I can't remember what all

24 else, but there are certain classes they have to

25 have, and then there's like elective courses, so

38

1 whatever -- and a lot of times it was like, you

2 know, what's going on, what's the law changes,

3 that was probably about always one of the things

4 we would train them like what's happening and then

5 the voting machines kind of stuff, and then we

6 would do -- they would have to become certified,

7 so once they got the certain amount of classes.

8 Q. Did you serve as an instructor?

9 A. I have -- I have done one or two, I think.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But usually I was helping set up and run it, you

12 know, make sure everything is right.

13 Q. So the --

14 A. The behind the scenes.

15 Q. -- the behind-the-scenes admin person?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Making sure everything was right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've

20 established that before you got the job you had

21 zero experience in investigating and you got zero

22 training on the job, correct?

23 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Mischaracterizes

24 testimony.

25 BY MR. BOWERS:

39

1 Q. Well, you -- you can affirm it now; is that

2 correct?

3 MR. SHAPIRO: Can you restate the question,

4 please.

5 MR. BOWERS: Read it back, please.

6 (The following question was read back:

7 Q: Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've

8 established that before you got the job you had

9 zero experience in investigating and you got zero

10 training on the job, correct?)

11 BY MR. BOWERS:

12 Q. You can answer.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So then how would you know if something

15 rose to the level of voter fraud or how would you

16 even know how to investigate it?

17 A. Because I did, you know, read some of the laws

18 which pertains to that, so I know -- and just --

19 it's kind of you know right and wrong, too. But

20 Marshall was also there. He was like my guide

21 so...

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. He was my -- I think -- he was like the senior,

24 you know, investigator and I'm like junior

25 investigator.

40

1 Q. So when Mr. Leake was chairman of the board and

2 Mr. Bartlett was --

3 A. Executive director.

4 Q. -- executive director, do you think that

5 investigating fraud was a priority for them?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. You don't know either way?

8 A. I do not.

9 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Bartlett ever come to you or

10 Marshall and say, "Hey, we got to weed out voter

11 fraud"?

12 A. He didn't come to me.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. And I don't know about Marshall.

15 Q. Did Mr. Leake ever come to you and say, "We have

16 to take care of voter fraud"?

17 A. No. We didn't interact with the board very much.

18 If they had something they would go to the

19 director.

20 Q. Okay. So you don't know if it was a priority for

21 the board --

22 A. Right.

23 Q. -- when you were there?

24 Okay. Are you aware that there's a

25 completely new board in place today?

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41

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. We've already established that you know

3 Ms. Strach is the director?

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. Would it surprise you to say that addressing voter

6 fraud is a priority for Ms. Strach? You've worked

7 with her before.

8 A. I mean, I don't know what a priority -- I would

9 just think she would still -- like the campaign

10 finance part of it because that was her baby, so I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Okay. But my question is: Would it surprise you

13 if I told you it was a priority for her based on

14 your knowledge and experience with her?

15 A. I wouldn't know what would be her priority.

16 Q. So is that a yes or no or you don't know?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. All right. Earlier when Mr. Shapiro was

19 asking you questions, you referred to a situation

20 where an elderly voter was accused of

21 impersonating a voter or voted twice?

22 A. Double.

23 Q. Double voting? Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And you said that -- that -- was it a he or

42

1 a she; do you recall?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. Okay. Well, the elderly voter, it was your

4 conclusion that they didn't do it intentionally,

5 right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Okay. How did you come to that conclusion?

8 A. We talked to the poll workers. We talked to the

9 family of that person. And the conclusion was

10 that -- and due to the person's health that they

11 weren't in a right state of mind.

12 Q. Do you recall how old that person was?

13 A. No, I don't, but definitely over -- over like 70s.

14 Q. Do you know what county that person lives in?

15 A. I -- I feel like it was either Winston-Salem,

16 Greensboro area so like Guilfordish area.

17 Q. Do you recall the race of that voter?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You met with their family, right?

20 A. No. That was Mr. Tutor.

21 Q. Okay. So who did you meet with?

22 A. I didn't, not on that case.

23 Q. Okay. Well, then how -- how do you know that

24 the -- you personally didn't ever meet with that

25 voter?

43

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. So how do you know that they didn't

3 intentionally --

4 A. Because Mr. -- that's what Mr. Tutor had told me.

5 Q. Okay. So you just relied on whatever he told you?

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. Okay. Did you have any firsthand involvement in

8 that particular case?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other

11 yourself other than what Mr. Tutor told you?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, Ms. Rhinehart: How is

14 a poll worker supposed to be able to detect voter

15 impersonating without a photo ID?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. I've got some documents here that were

18 produced by the State Board of Elections. I'll

19 have the court reporter mark this one as Rhinehart

20 1.

21 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 1, E-mails, Subject:

22 Voter Fraud Actions needed now, was marked for

23 identification.)

24 BY MR. BOWERS:

25 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, take a look at that and tell me if

44

1 you recognize it.

2 A. I don't remember it but --

3 Q. Okay. I mean, it's almost five years ago so...

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. You don't remember it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But you don't -- do you dispute its authenticity?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. On the second page of this exhibit it looks

10 like someone named Donald Bolster sent an e-mail

11 to the governor's office alleging some level of

12 voter fraud; do you see that?

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. Yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And then it looks like someone from the

17 Office of the Governor forwarded this e-mail to

18 someone named Johnnie McLean?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Do you see that on the first page of the document?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Okay. Who is Johnnie McLean?

23 A. She was the deputy director.

24 Q. Okay. And then Ms. McLean apparently forwarded

25 this e-mail to you; do you see that?

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45

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And then you passed it on to Mr. Tutor and

3 Don Wright, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who is Don Wright?

6 A. He was our general counsel.

7 Q. Is he still there; do you know?

8 A. He retired it was this year or last year. It

9 might have been last year.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. He's retired recently.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. But you don't have any recollection

13 one way or the other about this allegation of

14 voter fraud?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Okay. Do you know if you or Mr. Tutor even looked

17 into it?

18 A. I wouldn't have at this time because I was

19 certification and outreach. That wasn't -- that

20 wasn't -- I wasn't an investigator at this time.

21 Q. Well, why did Johnnie send this to you then?

22 A. Because I was -- she's administration. We have

23 three divisions. We have IT, administration and

24 campaign finance, and she's administration

25 director, and she would a lot of times send these

46

1 to me so I could write up the letters. I guess I

2 was a good little secretary like.

3 Q. Okay. Okay. So you didn't investigate this --

4 A. No.

5 Q. -- certainly?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know if Marshall Tutor investigated it?

8 A. I do not recall, no.

9 Q. Do you know if Mr. Tutor has a political

10 affiliation? Is he a Democrat or Republican?

11 A. I do not know.

12 Q. Okay. Did y'all ever talk about politics?

13 A. Not really.

14 Q. Okay. Would you please read into the record the

15 response that Mr. Tutor sent to you and copied Don

16 Wright? It's at the top of that --

17 A. That paragraph there?

18 Q. Yes, sir. I mean yes, ma'am. I'm sorry.

19 A. "A paragraph from Marc or someone in SEIMS, giving

20 the technical aspects of the system we use to

21 periodically do county registration, voter roll

22 maintenance should be the actual response with the

23 appropriate thank you for your concern. I am not

24 familiar with the study they are referring to.

25 Are you Don?"

47

1 Q. Okay. When you worked for Marshall --

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. -- was that sort of the standard response; do you

4 know?

5 A. I don't think so. I would say no.

6 Q. Okay. You would say no. What would the standard

7 response be when you worked with him?

8 A. That we would talk to the person and kind of

9 see -- and since they're alleging it in

10 Appalachian State, which is Watauga, we would talk

11 to the County Board of Elections and see what's

12 going on there.

13 Q. Okay. I know there could be other e-mails that we

14 don't have, but based on this e-mail, it doesn't

15 look like anybody -- it looks like more of a

16 brushoff, doesn't it?

17 A. Well --

18 Q. Just send them a can letter, tell him thanks for

19 his concern. It looks more like that than any

20 investigation, doesn't it?

21 A. And it looks like that, you know -- just to

22 describe to the person what we do in general.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. To make sure there's not voter fraud, yes.

25 Q. Okay. But it doesn't look like Mr. Tutor said,

48

1 "Hey, we need to look into this, does it"?

2 A. Not from this e-mail.

3 Q. Not from this. Okay. All right.

4 MR. BOWERS: I'm going to have the court

5 reporter mark this as Rhinehart Number 2.

6 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 2, E-mails, Subject:

7 Voter Fraud Actions needed now, was marked for

8 identification.)

9 BY MR. BOWERS:

10 Q. If you start from the back, you'll see that this

11 is sort of a continuation of Exhibit Number 1.

12 Okay. And you see this looks like at the top a

13 later response -- the last date and timestamp on

14 Exhibit Number 1 was 9/29/2010 at 11:47 a.m.; do

15 you see that?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Okay. Yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then Exhibit Number 2 is the same date but at

20 12:25 p.m.; do you see that?

21 A. The last response?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And you said Mr. Wright was the general

25 counsel at the time, correct?

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49

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Okay. And it looks like -- it looks like he sent

3 you a "Word document as to the issue of NVRA

4 compliance and VR compared to VAP population

5 prepared a couple of weeks ago. "You can prepare

6 the response from these documents."

7 Okay. So that looks like to me that

8 Mr. Wright is recommending that you don't need to

9 do any investigations, just use what we had from a

10 couple weeks ago; is that -- is that accurate?

11 A. Well, again, I wouldn't do the investigation, so I

12 would just be writing the letter to the man to

13 tell him what we already have in place --

14 Q. Right.

15 A. -- and what we do.

16 Q. But at this point you had served as a -- as an

17 investigator for a couple of years?

18 A. I had, but there -- there was another investigator

19 at this time with Marshall.

20 Q. Okay. But Marshall is copied on this e-mail,

21 correct?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And you knew how Marshall worked. You testified

24 that he was -- that he did -- he was very diligent

25 earlier, correct?

50

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. But it looks like here that Mr. Wright is

3 just asking Marshall to prepare the response from

4 these documents without doing an investigation,

5 correct?

6 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.

7 THE WITNESS: He definitely --

8 BY MR. BOWERS:

9 Q. You can answer. You can answer.

10 A. He's definitely asking me to prepare the response.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. He would not ask Marshall to write a letter.

13 Q. Okay. All right. But the response doesn't

14 include anything new from an investigation post

15 the complaint, does it?

16 A. No, but Marshall could have been investigating it,

17 but we give a letter, you know, to them right away

18 to tell them what we do.

19 Q. Okay.

20 MR. BOWERS: This is going to be marked as

21 Rhinehart Number 3. It's a simple one-page

22 exhibit.

23 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 3, E-mail dated 11/2/04,

24 Subject: Possible absentee fraud, was marked for

25 identification.)

51

1 BY MR. BOWERS:

2 Q. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that look familiar to you? Granted it was 11

5 years ago so you might not remember it but --

6 A. Not exactly, but I do remember doing some lists

7 like these, yes.

8 Q. Okay. Do you dispute this e-mail's authenticity?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. And this is back during the time frame when

11 you were at least in the investigator's office,

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, it is?

14 Q. Okay. And Mr. Tutor says to you, "These are

15 potential double voters that will have to be

16 investigated after the election." Do you see

17 that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many double voter --

20 potential double voters there were?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Do you recall if they were investigated

23 after the election?

24 A. I can't -- I really don't remember that far back.

25 But I remember -- I don't remember if it was this

52

1 time or other times that we would get lists like

2 this and we would investigate them or we would

3 talk to county boards and go there and stuff.

4 Q. You see the date is November the 2nd, 2004. I

5 will tell you --

6 A. That was an Election Day.

7 Q. Was that Election Day?

8 A. Probably. Well --

9 Q. It's probably close to Election Day certainly?

10 A. Yeah. Yeah. It's the Tuesday after the first

11 Monday, right? So Monday would have been the 1st.

12 Q. Maybe.

13 A. So probably.

14 Q. Or it could have been a few days before Election

15 Day but -- look, I don't know. I didn't check.

16 So I'm not -- this is not a memory test.

17 A. Yeah. Yeah.

18 Q. If it's not exactly Election Day, it's certainly

19 during the early voting?

20 A. It's a Tuesday, so it could be, yeah. See's

21 Marc's e-mail, Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004?

22 Q. I don't see that.

23 A. Original message. Marc Burris Tuesday, November

24 2nd, 2004, at 3:05 p.m.

25 Q. Oh, I do see that. Yes. Okay. So this probably

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53

1 was Election Day.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. So at almost 8:30 at night on Election

4 Day --

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. -- polls have closed by that time, correct?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Mr. Tutor sends you this e-mail to your -- looks

9 like your government address, correct?

10 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Okay. Did you have round the clock access to your

12 government e-mail?

13 A. I could -- I could have, but I wouldn't have been

14 looking.

15 Q. Okay. All right. And would you say that

16 potential double voters on Election Day was an

17 important allegation?

18 A. This is absentee, though.

19 Q. Okay. Well -- but still on Election Day.

20 Absentee votes that were potentially double.

21 A. Well --

22 Q. Strike that. Let me start over. Let me ask a

23 more clear question.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. I will -- we can agree that the Excel spreadsheet

54

1 that was attached that I don't have a copy of, but

2 it was attached it says "possible absentee fraud,"

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Given that it was on Election Day, wouldn't

6 it almost certainly be that people who had voted

7 absentee and then voted a second time on Election

8 Day; isn't that probably what this is, the

9 potential double voters?

10 A. It could be.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall Election Day 2004

12 investigating or helping Marshall investigate

13 potentially double voters that he said -- he

14 thought it was important enough to send it to you

15 at almost 8:30 at night on Election Day. "Hey,

16 we've got to investigate these."

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Do you remember doing that?

19 A. I don't.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. BOWERS: I think we're on Number 4; is

22 that correct? This is going to be Rhinehart 4.

23 It's also a one-page document.

24 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 4, E-mails, Subject:

25 Undeliverable: FW: NC voter fraud revised

55

1 addition, was marked for identification.)

2 BY MR. BOWERS:

3 Q. Do you recognize this e-mail?

4 A. I feel like I may have tried to help Marshall with

5 the Facebook part of it.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that Marshall didn't know

7 how to operate Facebook?

8 A. He probably can, but he's not as computer savvy

9 as, say, a young person.

10 Q. Okay. So --

11 A. And I don't know if he even had a Facebook account

12 at that point. So I could get on mine and look up

13 people.

14 Q. Do you -- do you have any recollection of helping

15 him look up something about a Michael Vance

16 admitting voter fraud on a Facebook page?

17 A. Vaguely I remember this.

18 Q. Tell us what you remember the best you can.

19 A. I feel like there was a picture of him -- I can't

20 remember though. I think -- I don't know if it

21 was actual pictures of him doing something voting

22 or saying that he was going to do it in the

23 picture. But I -- just vaguely.

24 Q. And again, I don't have the attachments for

25 whatever reason.

56

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. But it does say that -- well, let me ask you this:

3 Who is Michelle Briggs?

4 A. No clue.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I think just a citizen.

7 Q. Okay. What was done about this; do you know?

8 A. Well, according to his e-mail, I guess he

9 contacted Mecklenburg County about this man, and

10 then he -- looks like he wasn't even a voter. And

11 then people have been notified about the person.

12 Q. Do you remember seeing the screen shots?

13 A. I feel like I remember a picture, but I just

14 can't --

15 Q. Okay. The e-mail from Michelle Briggs to Marshall

16 Tutor was sent on Tuesday, October 26th, 2010, at

17 5:29 p.m., correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And then his response is sent the very next

20 day at 7:40 a.m.; do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So approximately 14 hours later, overnight,

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that typical for Mr. Tutor to conduct such a

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57

1 thorough investigation of a complaint of voter

2 fraud?

3 A. I'm guessing this was during a One-Stop period.

4 Well, would it have been a One-Stop? Yeah. So

5 it's possible he could have been in the office,

6 and the county boards would have definitely been

7 in their office that night if it's during One-Stop

8 and they're getting ready for elections because

9 they would be having trainings and stuff, so it's

10 possible that he did contact them that evening

11 because Marshall would work late or you can see he

12 comes in early, too.

13 Q. Okay. But you don't in any way assert that he

14 stayed up all night looking into this, do you?

15 A. Not that I know of.

16 Q. Okay. And you see there in the second line of his

17 e-mail back to Ms. Briggs he says, "They have done

18 an in depth search." Do you see that, the

19 description of "in depth"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And from 5:29 p.m. to 7:40 a.m. the

22 following day, would you consider that an in-depth

23 review and search?

24 A. Not a time period, but what he's searching for is

25 to see that he's voted, and that's easy.

58

1 Q. It is easy?

2 A. The Mecklenburg County would just have to pull it

3 up and look at their records, and I don't even

4 know -- did it say -- I don't know if he said he's

5 even a registered voter because, you know, we have

6 that database of the whole registered voter, so...

7 Q. Do you know what the normal business hours of the

8 Mecklenburg County Board of Elections are or were?

9 A. Probably -- probably 8 to 5.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But this time it's a little different because it's

12 One-Stop and training times.

13 Q. But you're speculating as to that; you don't know

14 for sure, do you?

15 A. It would have because it's October 26th, that last

16 week of October.

17 Q. Certainly, you know that it was during a One-Stop

18 period?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. But you don't know that they -- that anybody in

21 the Mecklenburg office stayed past 5 on that

22 particular day, do you?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Okay. And do you consider this an in-depth review

25 and search?

59

1 A. I don't know what he did.

2 Q. Okay. So is that you don't know one way or the

3 other?

4 A. I don't know, yes.

5 Q. When did you become a certification and outreach

6 assistant?

7 A. It was when I transitioned from investigator. So

8 it was either 2006 or 2007. I can't really

9 remember.

10 Q. Okay. Had you started -- had you started your

11 graduate studies by the time you transitioned?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And where were you going to school?

14 A. North Carolina Central.

15 Q. What town is that in?

16 A. Durham.

17 Q. And you were living in Raleigh?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. How far of a drive is that?

20 A. About 40 minutes.

21 Q. Okay. Do you plan on appearing and testifying at

22 the trial of this matter?

23 A. I don't want to.

24 Q. You don't want to?

25 A. No.

60

1 Q. Why not?

2 A. It's intimidating enough in here for me.

3 Q. Mr. Shapiro is very intimidating.

4 A. He is, isn't he?

5 Q. I will concur with you on that.

6 A. It's not something I've ever planned on doing in

7 my life.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MR. BOWERS: Ms. Rhinehart, at this time I

10 don't have any other questions. Thank you for

11 your patience.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 MR. SHAPIRO: Let's take a brief break and

14 go off the record.

15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We're going

16 off the record. The time on the monitor is 1547.

17 * * *

18 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the

19 proceedings from 3:47 p.m. to 4:03 p.m.)

20 * * *

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going on the

22 record. The time on the monitor is 1603.

23 * * *

24 EXAMINATION

25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

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61

1 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

2 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, just a few more questions.

3 You mentioned I think in your testimony that

4 Mr. Marshall supervised the work you did on the

5 cases you investigated, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so how closely did he supervise your work?

8 A. He was always involved with whatever I did. I

9 would report back to him or -- and he would let me

10 know if I need to do more or if he needed to take

11 it or what we needed to do.

12 Q. And how qualified did you feel you were for the

13 tasks he asked you to do?

14 A. I felt qualified, typically just interviewing

15 people. It's pretty basic and easy for me.

16 Q. And after the interviews did you report what you

17 learned to Mr. Marshall?

18 A. I would report to Marshall.

19 Q. And to the extent that Mr. Marshall wanted to have

20 additional information from someone you

21 interviewed, did he have an opportunity to ask you

22 to obtain additional information?

23 A. He would if I needed to. He would maybe give me

24 some questions I needed to ask or he may call the

25 person hisself.

62

1 Q. So is it fair to say your role was really to

2 assist Mr. Marshall in investigating these cases?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Okay. Too many pieces of paper.

5 So we saw -- you were shown a couple --

6 strike that.

7 You were shown a few exhibits,

8 Ms. Rhinehart.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the first two exhibits I believe you stated

11 during the cross-examination that they were

12 e-mailed to you while you were no longer an

13 investigator; is that correct?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And during that time you did not -- you do not

16 know -- what do you know -- strike that.

17 What do you know about steps taken to

18 investigate the -- the matters referred to in

19 these e-mails?

20 A. I do not know what was done to investigate them.

21 Q. And with regard to Exhibit Number 3, which is an

22 e-mail that was sent to you while you were, in

23 fact, an investigator, looks like roughly 11 years

24 ago, correct?

25 A. Uh-huh.

63

1 Q. And you were asked about what you specifically

2 remember concerning this case, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that right?

5 And I think you testified that you don't

6 quite remember what -- what you did with regard to

7 this case, right?

8 A. I do not, no.

9 Q. Okay. But in this e-mail -- this is an e-mail

10 from Marshall Tutor, and you are -- and correct me

11 if I'm wrong, you're being asked to investigate

12 whether individuals are double voting; do you see

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in the normal course of business in the work

16 that you did, were you to get this type of e-mail

17 from Mr. Marshall, who was supervising you, to

18 investigate whether individuals are engaging in

19 double voting, what would you do?

20 A. We would get the list because -- like this one,

21 the absentee list, so we'd get the list, and then

22 we would check with the counties and see if those

23 people actually voted on vote -- on voting day, on

24 the Election Day. So we'd have them double-check

25 their list there, and see, at this time, if you

64

1 catch it here before the ten days they have to,

2 you know -- they have like the ten days where the

3 absentee ballots are researched, so you could

4 catch it in between those ten days, and then you

5 would disregard that absentee ballot from that

6 person if you found that they voted on Election

7 Day also.

8 MR. SHAPIRO: Thanks so much. I have no

9 further questions.

10 MR. BOWERS: Thank you for your time.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. This

13 concludes the deposition of Candi L. Rhinehart.

14 The time on the monitor is 1609.

15 [SIGNATURE WAIVED.]

16 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:09 P.M.]

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-52 Filed 07/08/15 Page 16 of 17

CANDI L. RHINEHART April 30, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

17 (Page 65)

65

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )

3

4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court

5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the

6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify

7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing

8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of

9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability

10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 6th day of May, 2015.

20

21 ____________________________

22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR

23 Notary Public No. 20020910053

24

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-52 Filed 07/08/15 Page 17 of 17

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

__________________________________

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )

official capacity as Governor )

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

and )

)

LOUIS M. DUKE, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs-Intervenors, )

)

vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

______________________________)

DEPOSITION OF DEAN ROBERTS

2

1 THE 30(b)(6) DEPOSITION OF

2 THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE

3 DEAN ROBERTS

4 ________________________________________________________

5 1:00 P.M.

6 THURSDAY, MAY 14, 2015

7 ________________________________________________________

8

9 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

10 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD, SUITE 1100

11 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

12

13

14 By: Maren M. Fawcett, RPR

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:3 KIRKLAND & ELLIS

BY: RONALD K. ANGUAS, JR., ESQ.4 (Via teleconference)

655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.5 Washington, DC 20005

(202) 879-59016 ronald.anguas@kirkland.com7 Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:8 SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE

BY: ALLISON RIGGS, ESQ.9 EMILY SEAWELL, ESQ.

1415 West Highway 54, Suite 10110 Durham, NC 27707

(919) 323-338011 allison@southerncoalition.org12 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:13 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

BY: JOHN A. RUSS IV (BERT)14 1800 G Street, N.W.

Room 7254-NWB15 Washington, DC 20006

(202) 353-773816 john.russ@usdoj.gov17 Counsel for the Defendants State of North Carolina and

Members of the State Board of Elections:18

OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.19 BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.

4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 110020 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 787-970021 thomas.farr@ogletreedeakins.com22 Counsel for the Deponent:23 U.S. Department of Justice

BY: GILL P. BECK, ESQ.24 100 Otis Street, Room 233

Asheville, NC 2880125 (828) 259-0645

gill.beck@usdoj.gov25 gill.beck@usdoj.gov

4

1 Reported by:2 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS3 BY: MAREN M. FAWCETT, RPR

4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 10004 Raleigh, NC 27609

(919) 649-99985 denise@discoverydepo.com6 -oOo-7 INDEX8 PAGE9 EXAMINATION BY MR. FARR 5, 108

10 EXAMINATION BY MR. BECK 10211 -oOo-12 INDEX OF EXHIBITS13 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED14 Exhibit 1 NC General Assembly 14

Joint Legislative Elections15 Oversight Committee

Transcript of Proceedings16 4-2-1417 Exhibit 2 Notice of Deposition 1418 Exhibit 3 Forsyth County Board of Elections 67

Board Meeting Minutes 9-3-1319

Exhibit 4 Forsyth County Board of Elections 6720 Board Meeting Minutes 10-15-1321 Exhibit 5 Photocopy of Postcard Mailing 7722 Exhibit 6 Excerpts of the Deposition of 90

Gary Bartlett, 6-24-1423

Exhibit 7 Declaration of Charles Underwood 9124

25 (Exhibits attached.)

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DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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5

1 DEAN ROBERTS,

2 Having been first sworn or affirmed by the

3 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public to

4 tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

5 truth, testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. FARR:

8 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state

9 your name for the record.

10 A. Dean Roberts.

11 Q. And, Mr. Roberts, we briefly met. My name is

12 Tom Farr. I'm an attorney here in Raleigh with Ogletree

13 Deakins and I'm one of the lawyers representing the

14 defendants in the lawsuit that we provided a notice of

15 deposition for, which has brought you here today.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Okay. So I won't go through a long list of

20 rules for you. I'm sure you understand the ground

21 rules. One thing I would ask you to do, please, is if

22 you don't understand a question, would you let me know?

23 I'll try to rephrase it.

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. I don't know very much about Postal Service

6

1 procedures, so I might say something that is just

2 completely off the wall; and if I do, just let me know

3 and I'll try to ask a better question.

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. If you want to take a break at any time during

6 the deposition, that's fine by me, just let me know.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. We're very informal with this group, so if you

9 do need to take a break, that's fine. It's no problem.

10 Okay. Now, could you, Mr. Roberts, tell me

11 what's your current position?

12 A. Senior manager post office operations for the

13 Greensboro district for the U.S. Postal Service.

14 Q. Okay. Do you supervise people in that

15 position?

16 A. Yes, sir. I have six direct reports and about

17 4,000 indirect employees.

18 Q. Okay. So you say you're the senior manager

19 for post office operations?

20 A. Post office operations.

21 Q. For Greensboro?

22 A. Yes, the Greensboro --

23 Q. What does that mean? What does Greensboro

24 mean?

25 A. The Greensboro district. In North Carolina

7

1 there's two districts that cover all North Carolina.

2 The Greensboro district is -- if you looked at the map,

3 it's mostly the top half of North Carolina. It starts

4 between Boone and Asheville and comes down by way of

5 Morganton, over to Statesville, down to Asheboro, over

6 to Greenville and the Outer Banks up to the North

7 Carolina-Virginia border.

8 Q. Okay. We're in Raleigh today.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Is Raleigh in your district?

11 A. The City of Raleigh is not. I basically

12 oversee all the post offices except for the City of

13 Raleigh and the City of Greensboro. They report to my

14 bosses just like I do. That's a high-level postmaster

15 position.

16 Q. And who is your boss?

17 A. He would be the district manager, which

18 currently we have an acting district manager. His name

19 is Jason DeChambeau, D-e-c-h-a-m-b-e-a-u.

20 Q. And what does his district encompass?

21 A. He's the district manager. So I just see the

22 customer service side. He oversees everything,

23 including our processing plants. We have three plants

24 in this district that process mail as well. So there's

25 a plant in Raleigh over near the airport. There's a

8

1 plant in Greensboro, which is also near the airport.

2 And there's also what they call the network distribution

3 center that processes mail coming in and going out of

4 these locations.

5 Q. Okay. So I'm going to call them Jason

6 because --

7 A. That's fine.

8 Q. -- I'll butcher his last name, but Jason is

9 the head guy in the Greensboro district?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And then who does he report to?

12 A. Our area vice president.

13 Q. Do you know who that is?

14 A. Yes. That's -- oh, my gosh, you caught me off

15 guard. Kristen Seaver, K-r-i-s-t-e-n, Seaver,

16 S-e-a-v-e-r, and she's the area vice president for the

17 cap metro area.

18 Q. What's that?

19 A. That encompasses mostly from Baltimore down to

20 Atlanta. There are seven areas within the country for

21 the Postal Service.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. So there are seven area vice presidents and

24 then within her area there are eight districts,

25 Greensboro being one of them. The other district that

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3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 covers the rest of North Carolina is the mid-Carolinas

2 district.

3 Q. Okay. That's helpful. And then who does she

4 report to?

5 A. She reports to the deputy postmaster general

6 and the postmaster general.

7 Q. Postmaster general, he's the top guy, right?

8 A. She is, yes.

9 Q. She is?

10 A. Our first female postmaster general.

11 Q. What's her name?

12 A. Megan Brennan.

13 Q. Megan Brennan, okay.

14 Could you tell me a little bit about your

15 educational background?

16 A. I have a high school education and not a full

17 four-year degree. Most of it I got at nights, most of

18 it from the University of -- Desalles University in

19 Pennsylvania.

20 Q. Okay. Can you tell me -- I'll probably be

21 able to skip the rest of your employment history, but

22 what about your employment history with the Postal

23 Service, when did you start and could you tell me about

24 the jobs you've had?

25 A. Sure. I have a little over 26 years with the

10

1 Postal Service. I started out as a city carrier in

2 Pennsylvania and moved to the great state of North

3 Carolina back in 1993, and I moved into management in

4 1997. I was a supervisor customer service in a branch

5 in Fayetteville; and then from that position I moved to

6 manager customer service. So I managed a station branch

7 in Fayetteville.

8 From there I moved on to Charlotte, held a

9 couple different station manager positions in Charlotte;

10 and then I was -- for a little over a year I was the

11 manager customer service operations for the City of

12 Charlotte. So I oversaw 18 station managers in that

13 title. I worked between the station managers and the

14 postmaster position, that's an executive postmaster

15 position. So I handled the day-to-day operations of the

16 City of Charlotte.

17 From there I've also held three different

18 postmaster positions permanently; the first being

19 Lancaster, South Carolina, and then I was postmaster of

20 Matthews, North Carolina. From that, I went on to it

21 was a lower level manager post office operations over --

22 I oversaw the southeast corner of North Carolina. All

23 of these jobs were in the mid-Carolinas district, by the

24 way. So I oversaw 140 post offices, basically

25 everything east of I-95 and south of the Outer Banks.

11

1 From that position, I was promoted to postmaster

2 Wilmington, North Carolina.

3 Q. When did that happen? Let's put a time frame

4 on some of that stuff.

5 A. That was three years ago.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. And about two years ago I was detailed as the

8 acting postmaster of Charlotte for approximately nine

9 months. And then last July I got this promotion to this

10 position, July of last year.

11 Q. Okay. Can you give me an idea of the job

12 responsibilities that you're responsible for in your

13 current position?

14 A. Sure. So I oversee the day-to-day operations

15 of all of our customer service locations, so our post

16 offices and all of our delivery. So I'm responsible for

17 ensuring that all mail is delivered.

18 Q. I'm sorry?

19 A. All mail is delivered. We spend a lot of -- a

20 lot of my focus is more on driving efficiencies, saving

21 work hours, but also maintaining -- we're measured on

22 many different levels of service, whether it's service

23 to our customers at our counter, how well we deliver

24 things on time, whether it's a priority package or a

25 first-class piece of mail, the whole gamut. I handle

12

1 promotions, a lot of HR responsibilities, you know,

2 staffing. That's about it in a nutshell I guess.

3 Q. Okay. So are the -- if I'm using the wrong

4 word, let me know, but the guys that deliver the mail to

5 my house, do you call them letter carriers?

6 A. Yes. It's either one of two things; they're

7 either a city letter carrier or a rural letter carrier.

8 Q. Okay. And are those people in your district

9 under your supervision indirectly?

10 A. Yeah, unless you live in the City of Raleigh.

11 I don't -- I see everything around here, but I don't --

12 the postmaster of Raleigh reports to a different -- to

13 the same boss that I do. We're kinds of like peers.

14 Q. I got it.

15 A. But I just indirectly manage through a whole

16 lot of offices. She oversees the City of Raleigh and

17 then there is a postmaster in Greensboro. They're both

18 the same level offices and he also reports to my boss

19 directly.

20 Q. Okay. Are you responsible for Winston-Salem?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Winston-Salem and Durham are the two

24 postmasters that report directly to me. All other

25 postmasters in this district report to a lower level

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13

1 manager in post office operations that reports to me.

2 So there's four managers that oversee -- it's kind of

3 broken up over on the coast, the Raleigh area, the

4 Greensboro area and then the mountains area.

5 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Roberts, could you tell me what

6 you did to get ready for this deposition today?

7 A. Just reviewed some of our manuals,

8 regulations, our Domestic Mail Manual, Post Operations

9 Manual, the Employee Labor Relations Manual as well as

10 we have different handbooks for our carriers, one is the

11 M41 for city carriers and then there's also the PO603,

12 which is the handbook for rural carriers.

13 Q. Did you look over any documents that came from

14 this case?

15 A. Basically, just the subpoena and then also we

16 had conversations on the phone. Yeah, and the -- and

17 the transcripts.

18 MR. BECK: Patrick had provided us that

19 document and I forwarded it to Mr. Roberts. That

20 was based on my request what he should review to be

21 prepared for the deposition and that's what Patrick

22 sent to me.

23 MR. FARR: Okay. Let's just -- can we put

24 this here for a second. We might mark it later.

25 MR. BECK: Absolutely, yeah. And just for the

14

1 record, it's the --

2 MR. FARR: Thank you, Gill, go ahead and do

3 that.

4 MR. BECK: It is the North Carolina General

5 Assembly Joint Legislative Elections Oversight

6 Committee transcript of proceedings held in

7 Raleigh, North Carolina on April 2nd, 2014

8 consisting of 127 pages.

9 MR. FARR: Okay. Can we just mark that now?

10 MR. BECK: Yes.

11 MR. FARR: All right. We'll mark that as

12 Exhibit 1.

13 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)

14 BY MR. FARR:

15 Q. And is this Exhibit 1, is this something that

16 you have reviewed in preparation for this deposition

17 today --

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. -- Mr. Roberts?

20 MR. FARR: Okay. Let's mark this as Exhibit

21 2, please.

22 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)

23 Q. So when you get done writing, Mr. Roberts,

24 could you take a look at Exhibit 2?

25 A. Yes.

15

1 Q. Have you seen this before?

2 A. Yes, that is what I have in front of me.

3 Q. And this is a notice of deposition that the

4 defendants issued in this case?

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And one of the -- Mr. Roberts, this is just

9 another little rule about depositions, and if we were

10 just talking in your living room it wouldn't matter, but

11 you need to say "yes" or "no."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that's for the court reporter's benefit.

14 A. Got it.

15 Q. All right. So -- so you understand that you

16 were designated to testify on the two issues that were

17 listed in this Exhibit 2 for today?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Okay. So let's just -- let's just start with

20 topic one, which is procedures, processes and mechanisms

21 of how first-class mail with return postage is returned

22 to the sender, okay. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes sir.

24 Q. So what can you tell me about that?

25 A. Well, basically, if mail is undeliverable as

16

1 addressed, there's certain steps that it could possibly

2 go through and, you know, we're talking about

3 first-class mail. I'll refer to letter mail unless

4 there is a reason why I would need to refer to something

5 other than that. But letter mail generally comes into

6 our processing facilities from wherever it was mailed,

7 whether it was dropped in a collection box, whether it's

8 taken to the post office, whether a carrier is picking

9 it up at the time of delivery, or if there's possibly a

10 courier service bringing it to a location dropoff. All

11 mail gets run through machinery to either cancel it if

12 it needs to be. It takes an image lift off the mail

13 piece. It will apply a unique ID code to it if it's not

14 a bar-coded piece of mail, and then it goes through some

15 processes to determine where it's going to go to, if

16 it's going to stay locally, if it's going to go to

17 California or wherever.

18 From that point when it's running back through

19 the next piece of machinery, if a mail piece -- if the

20 recipient of that mail piece has a current change of

21 address on file, the system is cross-referencing all

22 change of address information. So when it's running

23 back through the next piece of equipment, it's a

24 delivery bar code sorter, it's going to flag that piece

25 of mail automatically to go back to the sender or to get

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17

1 forwarded depending on how the mail piece is endorsed.

2 So in regards --

3 Q. What do you mean by that?

4 A. Well, there's several different -- if there is

5 no endorsement by the sender and there's a good change

6 of address, then it's going to go to the next step where

7 it's going to apply the new address and send it to that

8 new address. If it's endorsed return service requested,

9 then it's going to be redirected to get the new address

10 applied, but to be sent back to the sender.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. There's another leg where when mail is then

13 getting sorted to the destination, if it didn't get

14 caught on the outgoing sort plan, there's a good chance

15 it will get caught on the destinating sort plan, and

16 again redirect it if there is a good change of address

17 in the system.

18 Q. Explain those two things to me.

19 A. Sometimes --

20 Q. I don't understand that.

21 A. Sometimes there could be a delay in the

22 systems or maybe it didn't -- it needed to be cleaned

23 up. Our systems are very good. It will read

24 handwriting and everything, but sometimes it can't make

25 a decision on some things or maybe the person left off

18

1 information. So it's going to continue then going to

2 where it's supposed to be going to, addressed to, but at

3 that same time we have locations in the country where

4 there's -- they call them remote encoding centers. When

5 the computers can't make a decision on a piece of mail,

6 an image is brought up on a screen in front of someone

7 sitting at a computer and they type in some information

8 to give the system what it needs to finalize the

9 address.

10 So if it's good, clean handwriting or good

11 typewritten -- or a good typed address, it catches it

12 right away. It might be later on in the steps, but

13 there's a really good chance that an automatable piece

14 of mail, letter mail, which is our best success rate at

15 sorting mail, 80 percent of the time it's going to catch

16 anything -- if there's a good change of address in the

17 system, it's going to catch it before it ever gets to

18 the carrier who would normally deliver that piece of

19 mail.

20 Q. Okay. So, just so I understand this, you said

21 there were two -- I heard you say there were three kind

22 of processes where the letter is checked or there was a

23 first computer process --

24 A. Right.

25 Q. -- a second computer process and then there

19

1 was some remote process where someone looks at a screen

2 if the first two processes don't catch it?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Is that right?

5 A. Yeah, you're -- you're -- you've got it

6 correct.

7 Q. What was the first process called?

8 A. So we have a piece of equipment that goes

9 through a facer canceler machine. And that's where it's

10 taken the original image of the mail piece -- it does it

11 for every piece of mail going through -- and it

12 applies -- if you ever notice, a lot of your letters

13 have a really faint pink bar code on the back. That's a

14 unique ID tag for that piece of mail.

15 The next step on that mail when it's coming

16 off that machine, which has canceled it, it does

17 somewhat of a sortation on the mail, but not a very

18 fine. It's just broken down if it's local or maybe not

19 local mail. And then they take it to -- depending on if

20 it's local or not, there's two different operations.

21 They take it to one machine or another basically and

22 they run a unique operation and then it's going to --

23 when it goes through, it reads the bar code on the back

24 and it's going to apply a bar code for the destination

25 of where it's going to. The system by that time has

20

1 determined what the address was and it will apply the

2 bar code unless the mail piece -- you know, some mail

3 pieces automatically have a bar code on it by the mailer

4 and then it doesn't need that, but at that point it

5 should all -- most of the time it's going to know if

6 there's a change of address for that person for that

7 address.

8 And so say it was going to Greensboro, North

9 Carolina, instead of sending it to the bin where all

10 Greensboro mail is going to go, it's going to then

11 redirect it to go back to our postal auto redirect

12 system. So it's going to send all mail that has a good

13 change of address to a separate bin that they process

14 differently because that's all mail that needs to either

15 get forwarded or go back to the sender.

16 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Roberts, when we first started

17 out, and I'm not going to master this, I'm sure --

18 A. Well --

19 Q. -- nor do I expect you to explain every little

20 detail because that's just impossible, but you said

21 there were two automated processes, like you said

22 outgoing or something like that?

23 A. Right, and then destinating.

24 Q. So could you explain those to me?

25 A. Yeah. So say it couldn't finalize it, but it

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21

1 knew it had to go to Greensboro, the data for that mail

2 piece is still in our system and trying to -- it's

3 trying to decipher exactly what the final address is so

4 we can sort it. Well, if it gets to Greensboro to the

5 plant there, all processing facilities normally will at

6 nighttime run outgoing mail and at a certain time they

7 start running their incoming mail for the next day's

8 delivery.

9 So letter mail -- very little letter mail gets

10 sorted by our employees. Like your carrier probably

11 touches less than 5 percent of the letter mail that he

12 delivers to your house; 95 percent or better is sorted

13 by a piece of equipment putting it into the order that

14 he or she delivers the route in.

15 Q. Can I ask you a question?

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. So when the letter's first delivered to the

18 Postal Service, there is some sort of outgoing

19 evaluation done?

20 A. Right. So it determines if it's local or not.

21 And if it's local, it's sorting it down to the zip code.

22 So if it's a zip code in Raleigh, these machines are

23 massive, they might have 400, 500 bins on them, and so

24 everything for a local zip code will go to one specific

25 bin for then doing our destinating sorting on that mail.

22

1 Q. Okay. Destination sorting is different than

2 the outgoing sorting?

3 A. Outgoing, yes.

4 Q. So the outgoing sorting is -- do the letters

5 get thrown into like a broader group and then they're

6 sorted --

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. -- more specifically at the destination

9 sorting?

10 A. Right. Yeah.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. So it might be by the first three digits of

13 the zip code generally is how that mail gets processed.

14 Q. At the outgoing?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And then they send it to Greensboro and then

17 Greensboro processing plant does the destination sorting

18 to figure out which address it's supposed to go to?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Okay. And then you said there was like

21 another -- if they can't figure out for sure where it

22 goes at the destination, then they -- some person gets

23 an image of it and they actually look at it?

24 A. Correct. And then so they key in information

25 necessary, usually it's just a couple keystrokes to --

23

1 maybe it's finalizing 'cause it didn't have a proper --

2 the system knows, hey, that's not the right address. So

3 then they look at it and can determine, okay, maybe

4 it's, you know, because it's missing a suite number or

5 several other reasons why it could possibly -- it might

6 have read the street wrong; or it might be, you know, a

7 lot of times you'll see someone will say they live at --

8 on Merileaf Drive, but it's really Merileaf Place.

9 Well, our system is going to not be able to make that

10 decision. It only knows Merileaf Place. That's the

11 address of the street. So that human being then seeing

12 it says, well, this block range is on Merileaf Place and

13 there is no Merileaf Drive, so then they finalize it.

14 So it will get a bar code that's going to sort it to

15 that address on Merileaf Place.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you said something

17 about the change of address. Could you tell me what

18 that is?

19 A. Sure. So when you move to another location

20 and fill out -- hopefully fill out a change of address

21 with us, and you've got a couple different ways, if you

22 do it online, a lot of times people complain that they

23 have to pay for it, but the reason why you pay a dollar

24 online for a change of address is because then you have

25 to enter credit card information and we have very

24

1 specific information on who entered that change of

2 address. So we don't have someone committing a fraud.

3 Otherwise, if you fill out a manual change of address

4 form, you can give it to your carrier or take it to a

5 post office and it requires that you fill it out and

6 sign it, swearing that it's accurate information.

7 So when that comes into our mail stream, those

8 cards get run on a piece of equipment or the data comes

9 into us from the online entries and so it triggers that

10 address that anyone by that name -- they have two

11 choices. They either fill it out for the individual

12 change of address like for Dean Roberts, or if I fill it

13 out for family then that means anyone with the last name

14 of Roberts that lived at this address should be

15 forwarded.

16 Q. Okay. So I got a couple questions about that.

17 A. Sure.

18 Q. Has the post office ever studied or do you

19 have any idea about how often people who move complete a

20 change of address form versus those that don't?

21 A. I'm sure we have an -- all I can tell you is

22 we don't do a study, but I'm sure there's data as far as

23 what is entered by the customer versus what's entered by

24 the Postal Service. Because if you just up and leave

25 and we know, okay, you're no longer at that address, the

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25

1 carrier holds that mail for ten days. So they hold it

2 awaiting a forwarding order.

3 At the end of ten days if they still haven't

4 gotten a change of address card, they generate it's a

5 specific change of address card that just says the

6 person moved, left no forwarding address. So I can't

7 tell you what percentage of the entire change of

8 addresses is generated by the employee versus generated

9 by customers. It's a lot smaller, but --

10 Q. What's smaller?

11 A. The amount that our carriers generate because

12 someone never put in a change of address is much, much

13 smaller than the amount that's generated by the

14 customers.

15 Q. Are there people who move that aren't caught

16 by either filling out a change of address form or the

17 carriers don't know it either, does that ever happen?

18 A. Well, the only way I could see it happening is

19 if someone that was living there just wasn't given the

20 mail back. If we had no reason to believe -- you know,

21 if a house is vacant we're not going to deliver the

22 mail. You know, if we can clearly see someone doesn't

23 live at the address, they up and moved out, we're not

24 going to keep delivering it and leaving it there.

25 Nor if we get mail for an addressee at a house

26

1 that's been vacant, but we don't see signs of someone

2 moving in, we're not just going to keep delivering mail.

3 The carrier knows, you know, because we get a lot of

4 fraud that way. We get drugs sent to vacant homes. You

5 name it. So they know that we don't just deliver to an

6 address if we know it's vacant.

7 But in the event say I live in a house with

8 three other guys and I up and leave and they just are

9 continuing to collect my mail, the carrier wouldn't know

10 that. There's not a means for us to know that if the

11 people that are still residing there don't give us the

12 mail back and say, hey, he left. He's no longer here.

13 Q. Okay. So, to some extent, the Postal

14 Service -- the Postal Service's knowledge of who lives

15 at an address depends to some extent on whether the

16 people who actually live there are giving the mail back

17 to the letter carrier?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Okay. Have you ever done any studies about

20 how often that people don't give the letters back to the

21 carrier?

22 A. I'm not aware of anything that we would have

23 looked at that. It would have to be a pretty small

24 percentage just from basic knowledge of all my years in

25 delivery.

27

1 Q. And like what type of situations do you think

2 could -- or living situations do you think could result

3 in people living in the house not giving the mail back

4 to the letter carrier? You mentioned one of them if

5 you're living at a house with other people and they just

6 didn't give your mail back. Can you think of others?

7 A. Usually that's the only case where it's still

8 the same people residing, but maybe one person moved

9 out. We have -- nowadays we have a lot of addresses

10 where we have multiple last names in an address. So I

11 think that's probably the most likely you would see that

12 occur. Otherwise, most people are going to give mail

13 back, say they move in behind someone and it doesn't

14 belong to them.

15 Q. But are you aware of any studies showing that

16 most people --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- give the mail back?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Could this be a problem, for example,

21 to a college dormitory?

22 A. Well, college dormitories we're not delivering

23 to the individual. We're delivering to the college. A

24 college generally will have a unique zip code and

25 they're entrusted to handle -- so they're the recipient

28

1 of the mail, not -- not the person attending school

2 there as far as what the Postal Service is concerned.

3 We deliver it to the college. They're required to

4 finalize delivery; or if it's not deliverable, they're

5 required to either forward it or return it to us as to

6 why it's not -- it's not forwardable.

7 Q. So, in those situations, the Postal Service

8 would be dependent upon the college to give you the mail

9 back for you to know the person no longer lives there?

10 A. Right. Yes.

11 Q. Has the Postal Service ever done any studies

12 about -- I have to ask this question right because it's

13 kind of convoluted. Have you ever studied the success

14 rate of letters being returned appropriately to the

15 sender because the person to whom the letter was

16 addressed no longer resides at the address to which the

17 letter was sent?

18 A. I tried to find out if there was anything that

19 we would have data to give us that, but we don't. The

20 only thing is the way some of these questions were put

21 in here, the return postage is part of the postage. The

22 class of the mail never changes because now it's going

23 back to the sender.

24 So all I can tell you, the Postal Service, at

25 great length, we live and breathe our service on every

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1 type of product that we handle. So first-class mail is

2 very closely scrutinized as far as our timeliness of

3 delivery. It's not -- we don't anticipate not getting

4 mail to where it's going, but what we do expect is an

5 acceptable level of accurate delivery for the time frame

6 that we say we should deliver in.

7 So we have, excuse me, service standards on

8 first-class mail. So if it's two days, we measure, you

9 know, did that mail piece get delivered in two days.

10 And the way -- we measure our service on first-class

11 mail by two different ways. One, internal information

12 based on those bar codes that get applied. If a mail is

13 getting bar coded on outgoing today going to a location

14 that should be delivered in two days, then within two

15 days we should see a destinating sortation on that bar

16 code that tells us, okay, that piece got into -- into

17 the sortation to where it should be delivered today.

18 So, in other words, during the night the plant

19 in Raleigh will be processing mail for delivery the next

20 day and so typical carrier in this area tomorrow might

21 receive five trays of letter mail. The first tray at

22 the very front is the very first delivery. The last

23 tray at the very back is the very last delivery of the

24 route. So we know that if it got that sortation into

25 what we call delivery point sequencing, we know there's

30

1 an excellent chance that that's getting delivered that

2 day.

3 So we base our percentage of how well we do

4 delivering the mail in our service standards by the data

5 we get from all those bar codes as well as from

6 commercial mailers. We have mailers in the Raleigh

7 area, Verizon, that might mail a couple hundred thousand

8 pieces of mail through our processing facility any given

9 night. We get data on every piece of mail because

10 they're what we call a full-service mailer. So there's

11 a unique bar code for every piece of mail that they're

12 giving us. We know when it was accepted into the system

13 and when it got to final sortation. So we know how well

14 we're doing on that.

15 And, on top of that, we pay IBM to externally

16 test our mail. So IBM has people that drop mail in

17 collection boxes all over the country and all over North

18 Carolina. So every day there might be a tester out

19 dropping at three different locations in the City of

20 Raleigh. And Raleigh would probably most days get three

21 or four drops any given day in a specific collection box

22 and it's dropped before the posted time for that

23 collection box to be picked up. And then that mail is

24 going to -- some of it might be local, some of it might

25 be two day, and some of it might be clear across the

31

1 country. They have receivers that get paid, so when

2 they get that mail delivered that day, they scan the bar

3 code, if it's got one, and they report -- it

4 automatically reports when they got that piece of mail

5 delivered.

6 Q. Okay. So you've gone into great length about

7 saying that you have information showing how long it

8 takes the letters to be delivered.

9 A. Yeah. So we have a lot of data that tells us

10 how good of a job we're doing getting mail delivered on

11 time. We don't have a data stream that would tell us

12 what gets returned and if it ever gets returned.

13 Q. I am going to ask you some questions about

14 that in a second.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. But -- so you're responsible for the northern

17 half of North Carolina except for Raleigh and --

18 A. Greensboro.

19 Q. -- the City of Greensboro?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. So, in those areas you're responsible

22 for, do you know how -- do you have the data on how long

23 it takes the different post offices to deliver

24 first-class mail?

25 A. Yes. We get different reports that tell us

32

1 how well -- on our internal stuff we'll know down to the

2 zip code and even to the carrier route where it's going.

3 On the external stuff, to make sure that everyone is on

4 the up and up, we never know the zip code it's going to.

5 We only know the three digit. So if it's going to -- if

6 it's going to a 277, we know that it was going to

7 Durham, but we never know anything greater than that.

8 So this way we can't ever play games with the system,

9 you know.

10 Q. But what I wanted to know is Wake County,

11 you're responsible for Wake County?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. Not Raleigh?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Okay. So when I go mail something in Wake

16 County, do you have data on how long it's going to take

17 that to get to the person who I mailed it to for Wake

18 County?

19 A. Yes, I won't be able to tell you a specific

20 piece of mail. I just know what we're averaging like on

21 any given day, any given week or any given month or

22 year.

23 Q. That's okay. For the areas you're responsible

24 for, how long does it typically take to get a letter

25 delivered once it's turned over to the Postal Service by

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1 the --

2 A. Anywhere in the state of North Carolina it

3 should be delivered within two days. That's our service

4 standard and our goal is 96 percent on all first-class

5 mail delivery --

6 Q. And is that --

7 A. -- within their service standard. So whether

8 it's North Carolina two day, you know, parts of

9 Virginia, South Carolina is two day. You get much

10 farther out and then it becomes three day. So our goal

11 for everything composite is that we make 96 percent on

12 time within our service standard.

13 Q. Okay. So the service standard is two days

14 from when to when? I mean, what's the beginning and

15 what's the end?

16 A. So if you're getting it in time for our

17 collection today, if you're putting it in a collection

18 box after the time posted, it's tomorrow's mail. It's

19 not going to get picked up till tomorrow.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Because we typically pick up at or just after

22 the time on the box. But if it's in our hands today, by

23 what we say is our time to accept mail, anywhere in

24 North Carolina it should be delivered -- today is

25 Thursday, it should be delivered by Saturday unless it's

34

1 going to a place that's closed that doesn't accept mail

2 on a Saturday.

3 Q. Okay. And in your district -- is it fair to

4 call what you supervise as a district?

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Do you have a 96 percent success rate?

7 A. It ebbs and flows. The one thing that hurts

8 us more is not local. We do real well on the two day.

9 It's more some of the three day and some of the

10 commercial mail that at times brings our scores down.

11 And it might be worthwhile mentioning --

12 Q. Does it -- is there a different -- are

13 different data for different post offices, am I

14 describing that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What are the subunits within your district

17 called?

18 A. Well, post offices. So we get some data down

19 to the post office level. Typically a lot of the

20 reports we look at is broken down by three digit. So if

21 it's 276, 275, 277, 282 for Charlotte, something like

22 that. Normally we look at service on first class at

23 that. And then if -- if there's something that sticks

24 out, then we dig into the data more as far as to see is

25 there correlation, is there a specific zip code that's

35

1 not performing well or is it a specific processing

2 facility.

3 Q. So the post office can have multiple -- in

4 fact will have multiple zip codes?

5 A. Some. Some have only one zip code.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Some have -- a lot of your area post offices

8 you get outside of Raleigh, some might have two.

9 Sometimes they'll have a unique zip code for their --

10 for their box section, depending on what size of a post

11 office it is.

12 Q. Okay. So like a Fort Bragg, is that one zip

13 code, for example?

14 A. Well, it's actually two. It's a zip code for

15 what we deliver to and then there's a zip code for the

16 military side. 'Cause we treat the military mail, it's

17 real similar to universities, which I've been over the

18 mail going to Fort Bragg already as well as to Camp

19 Lejeune. So there's always two sides of the post office

20 on the military base.

21 So the mail that's going to the soldier that's

22 in a military unit that lives in the quarters, that gets

23 handed over to the military side, but then in -- on a

24 lot of our military bases we also -- the Postal Service

25 will deliver mail to base housing. So there's usually

36

1 at least two separate zip codes that way.

2 Q. Okay. So there's like a zip code for the

3 soldiers at Fort Bragg who are living in the barracks

4 versus --

5 A. Yeah, I think that was 28309. 28307 was what

6 we delivered to on the base.

7 Q. 28307 is what the Postal Service delivers to?

8 A. Yeah. It's been a long time, but I'm pretty

9 certain.

10 Q. Do you know what the other zip code is?

11 A. I think it's 09.

12 Q. So 09 is just delivered to --

13 A. Yeah, so the way we --

14 Q. Mr. Roberts, like if we're having a

15 conversation at home, this is perfectly great, but,

16 again, for the court reporter, please try to let me

17 finish my question.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. I mean, I know what you're doing and that's

20 fine by me. I'm not offended by it at all, but it's

21 just to help the court reporter out.

22 So at Fort Bragg people who got their own

23 address, like a street address or something that the

24 Postal Service letter carrier will deliver the mail to,

25 would have a zip code of 28307?

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1 A. Uh-huh.

2 Q. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then if it was mail that the Postal

5 Service was giving to the military to deliver to the

6 person it would be 28309?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And the people who are living in 28309

9 would be people who have lived in places like barracks

10 or?

11 A. Right. Their mail is addressed to the unit.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So it might be Charlie Company, Second in the

14 325 82nd Airborne Division.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. They don't have an address. They have a unit

17 and so that mail we just roll through the door and give

18 it to the military postal people that then get that mail

19 to the -- to the mailroom clerks that come from the

20 different units.

21 Q. If somebody gave a barracks address at Fort

22 Bragg using the 09 zip code, would the Postal Service

23 not deliver to that address?

24 A. We don't -- we wouldn't handle a change of

25 address from a military unit just like we wouldn't from

38

1 a university.

2 Q. No. You missed my question, I'm sorry.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Say some soldier put down a street address to

5 have his mail delivered to, but he listed the 28309 zip

6 code, would the Postal Service deliver to that address

7 or would that be something that the Postal Service would

8 turn over to the military to have them deliver it?

9 A. There's a good chance that the system, if it's

10 a good address that we normally deliver to and it's just

11 they had an error with the zip code, that would be

12 something that possibly someone sitting in front of the

13 computer would have said, oh, that's the wrong zip, it

14 should be 28307, and it would be corrected before it got

15 to us and the bar code applied.

16 If it's -- if it -- otherwise, if it's got a

17 bad zip code on it, the system is just going to kick it

18 out to a manual mail stream and then clerks sort it as

19 best they can and so something like that would generally

20 be given to the military if it didn't belong on Fort

21 Bragg otherwise that we deliver.

22 Q. Would there be addresses at Fort Bragg that

23 the Postal Service would not deliver to?

24 A. The addresses -- there's addresses on Fort

25 Bragg that we don't deliver to.

39

1 Q. That was my question.

2 A. Yes. It would normally still go into the

3 hands of the military.

4 Q. That was exactly what I wanted to ask.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Okay. All right. So does the delivery time

7 from the Postal Service receipt to when the recipient

8 actually gets it, you're saying that that does vary

9 amongst the different post offices under your authority;

10 are some better than others?

11 A. Not historically better. I mean, normally one

12 of the things that drives that success rate is if we

13 have -- if we have a day that's not as good on service,

14 it might be because there was a service failure at a

15 processing facility where maybe, you know, a tray of

16 letter mail didn't get the final sort or a container of

17 mail didn't get worked in time for the final sort.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Typically, we would know if we had a problem

20 office and we live and breathe by service. So if

21 certain zip codes or areas look like they're not

22 performing well, we have people that go in and do

23 reviews to see that we're taking all the steps we should

24 to make sure everything that can drive that service is

25 being done and ensuring every piece of mail is being

40

1 delivered every day, that their data from their edit

2 books that triggers all this data for them to sort the

3 mail is up to date. So if you've got a high-growth area

4 like Holly Springs that post office is keeping up on top

5 of all their new deliveries and entering them in the

6 system so that the mail can get sorted properly, you

7 know.

8 So if a specific zip code or post office isn't

9 doing well, we look at one set. If it seems to be a

10 plant issue, then there's things we look at in the

11 specific plant that doesn't seem to be performing as

12 well.

13 Q. Okay. Now, let me just see if I can ask a

14 more specific question. I haven't read Exhibit 1, but I

15 think I know what it is and you say you've read this

16 getting ready for your deposition today?

17 A. Yes. I looked through it, yeah.

18 Q. Is there something in there about the mail

19 verification process that the State Board and County

20 Boards of Elections use for people who are new

21 registrants?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You read that part?

24 A. Yeah, so we're -- right. If it comes back,

25 then they send it back out again, attempt.

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1 Q. Right. Right. Okay. So now what I wanted to

2 ask you is are you -- the mailings that would be done to

3 voters who just registered to try to verify their

4 address that would be done by the State Board of

5 Elections, the County Board of Elections, would that be

6 what you would describe as local mailings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And would you be pretty confident that over a

9 span of time that 96 percent of those letters would be

10 delivered within two days of the Postal Service

11 receiving those letters?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Up -- if I can elaborate a little bit.

15 Q. Sure. Anytime you want to do that, that's

16 fine.

17 A. Up until just this year we had overnight,

18 guaranteed overnight first class for local mail. For

19 reasons -- financial reasons and for us to be more

20 efficient, we got away from it because it enables us to

21 do a whole lot more with less resources. But when we're

22 measured on even just overnight first-class mail, it was

23 very typical to run 98 percent, which meant if you put

24 it in a collection box today going somewhere that gets

25 processed out of the Raleigh plant, which would

42

1 basically be from this side of Burlington to like Rocky

2 Mount, there was a 98 percent chance that it was going

3 to get delivered tomorrow.

4 Q. Okay. So the area that you're responsible for

5 now it includes urban areas and it includes rural areas?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. And do you think that two-day goal you shoot

8 for and achieve 96 percent of the time, does that apply

9 to both urban areas and rural areas?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now -- so let's talk about the reasons

12 why the letter would be returned. I think you said that

13 it might be returned during the outgoing or what was the

14 other word you used?

15 A. Destinating.

16 Q. Outgoing, destination processing, either one

17 of those steps, could -- could the change of address

18 form be determined at either one of those steps?

19 A. Yes. Yeah. If there's a good change of

20 address, there's a really strong responsibility it will

21 get caught in one of those processes.

22 Q. Okay. And how long would that take from the

23 time the person mailed or delivered the mailing to the

24 Postal Service, how much time would elapse before the

25 change of address would be caught at either the outgoing

43

1 or -- again, what did you say?

2 A. Destinating.

3 Q. Destination, I've got to write that down so I

4 don't forget it.

5 A. That's okay. So, if it was mailed today, it

6 should get -- if it gets caught by the system in the

7 outgoing process, it's going to get caught today. We

8 usually clear that outgoing mail by about 11 o'clock at

9 night I think is a safe estimate. There's some nights

10 where it's later, but there's a lot of nights where it

11 might be a lot earlier. So all outgoing mail gets

12 processed.

13 Q. So at the outgoing stop, if the computer

14 process used at the outgoing step, if that had -- if

15 they were aware or if the machine there was aware of a

16 change of address form being filed, it would be caught

17 the same day the person put it in the box to the Postal

18 Service?

19 A. Are you saying for the change of address or

20 for the piece of mail?

21 Q. Piece of mail.

22 A. Yeah, so it should be caught that night, you

23 know. And so we're talking about something being mailed

24 from a Board of Elections, right?

25 Q. Yeah.

44

1 A. So I'm not sure if that's -- I guess there's

2 105 counties, so it could -- there's a lot of ways I

3 guess it could be mailed, whether it's handwritten or

4 typed, but there's a good chance --

5 Q. It's generated -- it's generated by an

6 electronic system.

7 A. Okay. So there's a great chance on the

8 outgoing it's going to get isolated and saying, hey,

9 don't send it on to where the address is because there

10 is a good change of address in the system for it.

11 Q. And what would happen to that piece of mail

12 then?

13 A. So all that mail gets staged and normally in

14 the morning they start running the mail for what we call

15 PARS mail, postal auto redirect system, which is

16 basically all mail that's not deliverable. So that

17 would then get -- so if you mailed it today that would

18 normally be run tomorrow during the day and get -- for

19 that purpose where we're talking a piece of mail that

20 has a return service requested endorsement, it would get

21 the new address applied, but it would be returning back

22 to the sender because of that endorsement by the sender.

23 Q. So they'd actually put like a little sticker

24 on the mail?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. I'm going to show you one that I've got later

2 today.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. The little sticker should say that the address

5 is not appropriate and then if they know what the actual

6 address is, it should be on the yellow sticker?

7 A. Right. Otherwise, it might have a reason as

8 to why it was being returned, if they moved, left no

9 address to forward to. There's several reasons. Could

10 be deceased. So that mail would get the new stuff

11 applied tomorrow and typically be delivered back to the

12 sender the next day.

13 Q. Okay. All right.

14 A. Every day we monitor -- not do we only monitor

15 in our plants that they processed all mail for delivery

16 today, but we monitor what they have on hand as far as

17 that redirect mail are forwardable mail that they have

18 to process. So they would --

19 Q. Do they track how long it takes to get that

20 mail returned to sender?

21 A. Yeah. They get -- they get -- not really that

22 it got returned to sender, but they can monitor and they

23 know if they have old mail in the building 'cause they

24 know, okay, there's bar codes that the system is looking

25 for another hit on that mail piece and it hasn't gotten.

46

1 So they can really dig into -- the bar code has really

2 changed how we process mail and the timeliness and

3 effectiveness and the efficiency of how we process mail

4 nowadays.

5 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me just stop you for a

6 second. So at the outgoing has identified letters for

7 which there is a change of address form and they're kind

8 of like segregated?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Okay. And then you have data I think you said

11 showing how long it takes the Postal Service to

12 accomplish that step?

13 A. They have -- we have reports that will give us

14 feedback on how long certain classes of mail are in a

15 plant, plus it will also trigger reports if we ran mail

16 late, in other words, not in time for delivery. So even

17 if we don't know exactly where it came from, we have a

18 report system that will tell us, hey, you ran last night

19 10,000 letters that were anticipated to be delivered the

20 day before and then, you know, when we have a failure

21 like that they'll typically dig into the data and try to

22 determine maybe where it came from, but also was there

23 something unique about where it was going to, you know,

24 was it going to a specific zip code so that it missed a

25 sort plan for that zip code.

47

1 Q. Okay. But I was interested in the ones that

2 you pulled out because the outgoing computers figured

3 out there was a change of address filed with the Postal

4 Service. My question is do you keep track of how

5 long -- once those letters are identified how long it

6 takes to get them back to the sender?

7 A. We don't really track how long it takes to get

8 back to the sender, but that it got processed.

9 Q. What does that mean?

10 A. So that it got the next step of the process.

11 So the stuff that was isolated tonight, the mail that

12 was isolated tonight gets processed tomorrow and then it

13 would be able to go either -- you know, some of that

14 mail is good forwardable mail, so it's going to get a

15 new address applied. So say they lived in Burlington,

16 but now they moved to Fayetteville, well, then that mail

17 is going to go on to Fayetteville to get processed to be

18 delivered in Fayetteville versus --

19 Q. What I'm interested in is the ones where they

20 don't --

21 A. Going back?

22 Q. Yeah.

23 A. That would get processed back to the zip code

24 that it was -- the sender is coming from.

25 Q. Okay. How long would that take once those

48

1 letters are segregated to when it's actually received

2 back by the sender?

3 A. It should be by the next day, the next

4 delivery day, which, you know, in regards to this being

5 Board of Elections, I'm not sure -- too sure of how many

6 we deliver to on a Saturday; or for the bigger ones that

7 might be a caller service that pick up, they might not

8 pick up on weekends either, but generally the next

9 delivery day it should be coming back to them.

10 Q. And does the Postal Service track that to know

11 whether that actually happens?

12 A. Not that I'm aware of, just because we

13 generally know if we did or didn't get the mail

14 delivered. We report on if there's delayed mail

15 volumes, but now if there was data that caused us to

16 believe, hey, something was delayed then we would

17 possibly dig into it, but we're more geared towards

18 looking towards the data that supports that we're

19 getting stuff delivered.

20 Q. Right. So you're looking at -- for the

21 letters that go to the person to whom they're addressed,

22 you track that data for how long it takes the recipient

23 to receive the letter from when it's mailed, but you

24 don't track how long it takes to get the letters for

25 which there's a change of address but no forwarding

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1 address back to the sender, you don't have any data

2 tracking that?

3 A. None that I am aware of.

4 MR. FARR: Okay. This is a good stopping

5 point. Let's take a break.

6 (Brief recess.)

7 BY MR. FARR:

8 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Roberts, I've got a couple

9 questions I wanted to ask you about Fort Bragg. Did I

10 understand you to say there's two zip codes there and

11 the Postal Service is responsible for one and the

12 military is responsible for the other?

13 A. Yeah, there's at least two zip codes. There

14 might be another one or two unique zip codes, but

15 typically there is one zip code that we deliver to for

16 residential delivery.

17 Q. And the military would be responsible for the

18 other zip codes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, is that -- do you have a contract

21 with the military?

22 A. I don't necessarily know that there's a

23 contract, but there's regulations that govern the

24 military side of the post office and I know we train --

25 typically we would have training sessions or the

50

1 military would do training sessions, those that were

2 trained on training on the postal regulations. And I

3 can just speak from experience because many, many years

4 ago I was a mail clerk at Fort Bragg in my -- I was a

5 backup mail clerk for my unit at Fort Bragg back in the

6 '80s. So I had to go through training to learn on how

7 to handle the disposition of the mail, whether it was,

8 you know, delivered to the person or what I would have

9 to do with the mail if they were no longer in the unit.

10 Q. Okay. Well, that's helpful. So, based upon

11 your knowledge working at Fort Bragg or, you know, all

12 your other positions with the Postal Service, do

13 military personnel who are using the military zip code,

14 would those individuals sometimes have post office boxes

15 to have their mail delivered?

16 A. Yes, and a lot of them do at the Fort Bragg

17 location. It's a rather large P.O. box section. That's

18 also something that we deliver to. That's -- so if

19 it's -- if it's going to a P.O. box on Fort Bragg,

20 Postal Service employees maintain those boxes. They

21 rent them out. So they pay the Postal Service for the

22 P.O. box just like anywhere else.

23 Q. So the post office box that the individual

24 soldiers or personnel have, all of those would be

25 addresses that the Postal Service would deliver to or

51

1 would any of them be delivered by the military people?

2 A. Not to the P.O. box. It would have to be

3 addressed to the P.O. box though. So there's a lot of

4 soldiers that don't like having their mail going to the

5 unit. So they'll rent a P.O. box. So they use the P.O.

6 box as their mailing address. And that might be -- I'm

7 trying to remember, but that might be like 28308. The

8 box section might have a unique zip code on Fort Bragg.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. But to the P.O. boxes at either Fort Bragg or

11 at Camp Lejeune we maintain those boxes. We deliver the

12 mail to those boxes, not the military side.

13 Q. Okay. All right. And let's go back to the

14 Postal Service catching the letters that have got a

15 change of address. In the outgoing step we talked

16 about, if the person has moved or no longer lives at the

17 address, but they haven't filed a change of address, the

18 Postal Service would have no way of knowing that that

19 person had moved, right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Okay. Do you follow my question?

22 A. Yeah. Can you repeat it again?

23 Q. Okay. Let's say somebody's moved, they didn't

24 fill out a change of address, would that particular

25 person be flagged as someone that no longer resides at

52

1 the address to which the letter is addressed?

2 A. Only by the knowledge of the carrier, if they

3 catch it and that's what --

4 Q. That's a couple steps down the road from where

5 we're talking right now. At the outgoing processing --

6 A. Right, you know, the processing system

7 wouldn't know. The only thing it's looking for is a

8 change of address on file cross-referencing the database

9 with what's on file and mail going to that address.

10 Q. Okay. Now, before the letters would get to

11 the postal clerk or the carrier, would there be any

12 other step along the way where a change of address might

13 be found?

14 A. It might pick it up when it's doing the final

15 sort if there was some data that had resolved on that

16 mail piece, so when that mail is being sorted to the

17 delivery point sequence for the carrier to deliver the

18 mail.

19 Q. Is that after the destination processing?

20 A. That is the destination processing basically.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. So when they're sorting that letter mail on

23 the machine, on the machinery for delivery, there is a

24 small percentage that didn't get caught on the

25 originating side that -- there's a bin on that machine

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1 for redirect mail. So in case it didn't catch it on the

2 outgoing process, it could possibly catch it if -- you

3 know, and the reason why it might not get caught till

4 then is, like I said, if there was -- at the time it was

5 doing the outgoing it couldn't determine properly if

6 there was a change of address for that person or not,

7 but if it got resolved in that time frame by maybe

8 someone looking at a computer screen or, you know,

9 sometimes there's a buffer on all the data.

10 Not to draw it out longer than it needs to be,

11 but you're talking all over this country millions and

12 millions of pieces of mail, millions and millions of bar

13 codes, so sometimes the systems are a little bit slower.

14 So it could be that there is a buffer in the data to

15 where it didn't catch it in time for the outgoing, but

16 it will catch up to that mail piece when it's getting

17 the final sortation destinate.

18 Q. Okay. When would that happen, how many days

19 after the letter is first delivered to the Postal

20 Service?

21 A. Okay. So if it's -- if it's mailed to us

22 today, it would typically happen by the next evening for

23 the second day delivery.

24 Q. Okay. And then just ask the same question I

25 asked before, has the Postal Service tracked the number

54

1 of letters for which a change of address form has been

2 completed and the letter's not flagged until the

3 destination process?

4 A. Not that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean that

5 we wouldn't be able to possibly dig into the data and

6 know. We know that 80 percent -- you know, roughly

7 80 percent of that volume gets flagged by the time it

8 gets to destinating for a change of address, but I don't

9 know how much -- I don't know if there's a report -- I'm

10 sure there's data that someone could spend a lot of time

11 digging into to determine what that is, but it wouldn't

12 really serve us a purpose.

13 Q. Okay. So you're saying 80 percent of the

14 letters for which a change of address has been filed or

15 caught during the processing?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Is that a yes?

18 A. Yes. Approximately 80 percent nationwide in

19 this previous quarter, because I did verify that, for an

20 address that had a good change of address on for that

21 person, about 80 percent of that letter volume was

22 redirected and never went to the intended address to

23 begin with.

24 Q. Okay. And then 20 percent did go to the

25 intended address?

55

1 A. No, it just didn't get redirected. So that

2 means the other 20 percent got caught along the way by

3 the carriers forwarding it or it might have been

4 something other than a change of address. So if the

5 address is expired, the system doesn't -- you know, if

6 the change of address has expired, if it's over a year

7 old, the redirect system isn't going to redirect it any

8 longer. It drops out of the system, but the carriers

9 are expected to be knowledgeable to know, you know. We

10 can't just keep redirecting mail forever for someone.

11 Part of the onus is on the person to make sure within a

12 year's time they notify people, hey, I no longer live at

13 that address, so ...

14 Q. So like if -- I think I heard what you said

15 there. Let's say somebody has filled out a change of

16 address and it's expired, would that letter be sent back

17 to the sender or is it possible that wouldn't be sent

18 back to the sender?

19 A. It would be, but it would be sent back to the

20 sender for the reason it no longer is -- and, actually,

21 the reason on the mail piece would say forwarding order

22 expired or undeliverable as addressed, but that would

23 need to be caught by the carrier, which means their

24 change of address had been put in over a year ago.

25 Q. Okay. So in those circumstances the system

56

1 wouldn't catch the letter, it would be the carrier if

2 the carrier had personal knowledge that the individual

3 had moved?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. And if the carrier didn't have personal

6 knowledge that the individual had moved, then it

7 wouldn't be caught?

8 A. Not unless the -- not unless the people

9 receiving that mail piece gave it back to the carrier.

10 Anything that comes back to the carrier, if you don't

11 mind my elaborating, whether it's expired or they just

12 don't know who it is, but they never -- they weren't

13 aware of them living there, then it would go back to the

14 sender. So if we don't know what -- you know, it would

15 go back as undeliverable as addressed, you know. It's

16 got a good address on it, but that person doesn't reside

17 at the address.

18 Q. That would depend upon the person at the

19 address putting the letter back into the mailbox or

20 giving it back to the postal carrier?

21 A. Right. If the carrier wasn't aware that they

22 weren't there.

23 Q. And if the person didn't do that, the person,

24 recipient didn't give the letter back to the carrier,

25 then that would not end up being returned to sender?

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1 A. Right. They might just throw it out. You

2 never know what people do nowadays.

3 Q. Has the Postal Service ever done any studies

4 about how often people do or do not return to the Postal

5 Service letters that they received that they're not --

6 they're addressed to some prior resident?

7 A. None that I could find out about or that I'm

8 aware of. It would be very hard to even determine what

9 that would be.

10 Q. Now, do you track -- does the Postal Service

11 track the number of letters that are addressed to a

12 prior resident which are then returned to the Postal

13 Service by the current resident?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So is it fair to say there's no data

16 indicating how many people -- how many new residents get

17 letters for the prior resident who return the letter?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And there's no data showing how many new

20 residents get letters addressed to the prior resident

21 who do not return it to the Postal Service?

22 A. No. We at times will -- we can determine by

23 data that's exactly what happens. You know, our system

24 is smart enough to where I explained that mail gets into

25 delivery sequence for the carrier to deliver the piece

58

1 of mail. So today if a piece of mail got sorted during

2 the night for delivery today that had been previously

3 sorted say a day or two before, it's going to trigger

4 reports.

5 So a lot of times we can dig into it and find

6 out that, oh, what happened was the customer just went

7 and took that mail and threw it in a collection box

8 'cause we could see it went through our collection

9 system again and then got hits on it. So we can

10 normally decipher if something looks odd that someone

11 has done that. They've thrown -- because it didn't

12 belong to them, maybe that person no longer lives there.

13 So what we'll do is we'll contact the delivery

14 unit and say, hey, you need to go to this tray of mail,

15 to this address and get these pieces of mail that's in

16 that mail and inquire with the carrier why that mail is

17 getting sorted again today when it was sorted yesterday

18 or two days ago for that delivery. And so that's when

19 in our investigation sometimes we'll find out oh, well,

20 those mail pieces that person no longer is at that

21 address, they moved years ago and so the customer must

22 have thrown it in the collection box just to get rid of

23 it.

24 Q. Okay. So let me try to summarize this just to

25 make sure I understand what you're saying. For people

59

1 that fill out a change of address form, 80 percent of

2 those are caught by the automated system and 20 percent

3 are not caught?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. And for the 20 percent that are not caught,

6 then to return to sender you're relying upon the

7 personal knowledge of the postal carrier?

8 A. (Witness nods.)

9 Q. Or the people who received the letter putting

10 it back in the mailbox?

11 A. Yes. I'd say that's an accurate summation.

12 Q. And if the postal carrier doesn't know the

13 person has moved or the new resident doesn't put it back

14 in the postal box, then the letter is not going to be

15 returned to the sender?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And you don't know how many people that would

18 fit into that category?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Does the -- let's go to the letters addressed

21 to a prior resident which are caught by the postal

22 carrier because he knows that person doesn't live at

23 their address anymore, does the Postal Service track how

24 often that takes place?

25 A. We have that type of volume every day. So

60

1 typically that mail would be in his mail he's taking

2 directly to the street. He doesn't touch it until he's

3 gone out to deliver his route. So when he's coming back

4 in the evening, he has a specific deposit location where

5 he puts mail that's undeliverable as addressed or if the

6 resident is deceased. So they pull that mail out of the

7 mail before they deliver it and then they deposit it and

8 then it is dispatched to the plant for processing the

9 next day. So we have different breakdowns on the

10 reasons as to why the mail would be going back to the

11 sender.

12 Q. Okay. So we're talking about the letter

13 carrier is given all the stuff that he's supposed to

14 deliver and when he's making deliveries he finds letters

15 that are addressed to people that he knows don't live at

16 that address anymore, he takes that back to where?

17 A. To his post office station that he works out

18 of. So in the evening they deposit that into designated

19 locations. Typically, there's a tray for each type of

20 mail that they -- and then that mail gets dispatched for

21 processing. It will still be run in the same system

22 that the stuff that's automatically caught is run. It's

23 a postal auto redirect system.

24 Q. For that category we just talked about, has

25 the Postal Service ever tracked how long it takes for

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1 those letters to be returned to sender?

2 A. No. We just -- like I said earlier, we just

3 monitor that they're current in the processing facility

4 on that mail volume, which would be that they clear

5 everything that they have designated to be worked for

6 today gets cleared today.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. So what they do is, you know, it's coming in

9 around the clock, so they have a processing window when

10 they process that. Usually it's in the morning, but

11 once they run everything they had available for today,

12 then everything else gets collected and staged for

13 processing tomorrow.

14 So there's a reporting system that our

15 processing facilities have that they reported on several

16 different classes of mail as well as types of mail,

17 whether it's letters or flats. So they have to report

18 what they have on hand every -- every so many hours and

19 as well as if they have any delayed mail volume. So

20 delayed mail volume would be something that didn't get

21 processed when it was intended to be, which catches a

22 lot of focus and attention from a lot higher at our area

23 office or even higher at headquarters. So there's a lot

24 of checks and balances to make certain that they stay

25 current on that, on that mail volume.

62

1 Q. So, make sure I understand what you're saying,

2 the Postal Service would have data on how many letters

3 are caught by the letter carriers that are addressed to

4 someone that doesn't live at that address anymore?

5 A. They could probably get an idea based upon

6 what gets run. I would imagine it would make up the

7 other roughly 20 percent. The only thing we wouldn't

8 know -- we only know -- when I say 80 percent, we know

9 approximately 80 percent of the hundred percent that

10 gets run on our redirect system is caught before it gets

11 to the carrier.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. There's no way of knowing what's beyond that

14 hundred percent. We're only talking about the mail

15 volume that does get redirected to the sender.

16 Q. So the redirected mail that's going to go back

17 to the sender is the hundred percent that you're talking

18 about?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And 80 percent of that is caught by the

21 automated system and the other 20 percent is either

22 caught by the letter carriers or the person who lives at

23 the residence where the letter is received?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And you don't know of that 20 percent

63

1 how much of that is the letter carriers and how much of

2 that is the residents?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Okay. Do you track how long it takes for

5 those letters to get back to the sender?

6 A. Well, what we do is every day -- not really

7 that gets back to the sender, but that every post office

8 clears that mail every day, so they dispatch that

9 volume. There's a process that they report. So every

10 post office, even ones that don't have delivery out of

11 them, but have just P.O. boxes, some little four-hour

12 office up near the Virginia border or something, they

13 have a recording mechanism that they go online and

14 certify that certain things have been done and one being

15 that all mail is dispatched. So that's part of the

16 process.

17 So we know that they're required to dispatch

18 the mail every day that's supposed to be going to the

19 plant, which that would be. And then the plant, that's

20 isolated mail, so it's coming in from, you know, I'm

21 not -- I can't tell you off the top of my head how

22 many -- how many post offices are serviced out of

23 Raleigh, but it's in the 150, 200 range I would venture

24 to guess, 'cause some of it still comes out of Rocky

25 Mount, but all of that mail comes in from different

64

1 offices, but it's isolated and tagged as PARS mail and

2 so then the plant stages all that for the next morning

3 to start running it.

4 So we have a check and balance in the post

5 offices that they dispatch that mail and then there is a

6 reporting system in our processing facilities that

7 require that they report on, you know, what they have on

8 hand and if they have any delayed mail volume.

9 Q. But, Mr. Roberts, here's what I'm trying to

10 get at, you all are real focused on the time it takes to

11 deliver the letter to the right recipient and you say

12 that takes two days to get that done --

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. -- 96 percent of the time?

15 Do you pay similar attention to how long it

16 takes to get letters back to the recipient that have

17 been received by someone -- to whom -- who is not the

18 correct addressee?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever come across situations where

21 Postal Service employees have not handled the return

22 letters with the same sort of expeditious attitude that

23 they do with the letters that they're trying to deliver?

24 A. I wouldn't say intentionally because it all

25 falls under the same heading of first-class mail and,

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1 you know, all employees at the Postal Service,

2 whether -- even a custodian goes through the same

3 orientation. That goes over very specific -- the code

4 of ethics as well as the many statutes under different

5 U.S. codes that could end up not only them losing their

6 job, but also end up with fine and possible

7 imprisonment. So yeah, we occasionally have employees

8 that do the wrong thing intentionally, but typically the

9 punishment when caught is swift and severe.

10 Q. Okay. So my question, my question is are you

11 aware of instances where -- or has the Postal Service

12 done any studies on instances where letters were not

13 received by the correct recipient and there was undue

14 delay in returning them to the sender?

15 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.

16 Q. That's not something the Postal Service

17 tracks?

18 A. No. We would deal with an incident, whether

19 it's -- it's still first-class mail. So any incident

20 that -- if there's a delay in a system or anything that

21 would trigger us to dig into it to determine that -- if

22 I can clarify a little bit on what I was talking about

23 earlier. We don't generally dig into data on how long

24 it takes for that mail to get back, but if there was a

25 reason to dig into that data, because we have reason to

66

1 believe that there was a delay in the process, you know,

2 we would look at it. But it's not something we really

3 measure or would expect an issue with the system because

4 there are certain checks and balances in the system to

5 make sure we're current. So if we're current on that

6 mail volume, it should be getting processed and

7 delivered just like any other piece of first-class mail.

8 Q. But you don't know whether it is or isn't

9 because you don't measure that for return letters?

10 A. No. And even if our external testing that we

11 do, we don't -- part of the requirement that IBM makes

12 certain before they sign on like a new receiver of mail

13 is that they have an accurate address and it's a good

14 address and there's no problems with it. So they don't

15 use a receiver of mail that would move. So we wouldn't

16 test that.

17 Q. Okay. All right. When did you start your new

18 position here that you're in right now?

19 A. July 26th of 2014.

20 Q. Are you aware of a problem with the Postal

21 Service at Winston-Salem State not returning the

22 verification letters that you read about in Exhibit 1?

23 A. I'm aware of Winston-Salem State University

24 not handling the mail properly, not the Postal Service.

25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some questions about

67

1 that.

2 MR. FARR: Are we on Exhibit 3?

3 THE REPORTER: Yes.

4 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)

5 Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, I'm going to ask you, this

6 is minutes from the Forsyth County Board of Elections

7 dated September 3rd, 2013. And the only thing I'm going

8 to ask you about is starting on the second page there is

9 a section about list maintenance cards not returned?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Could you just read that to yourself and let

12 me know when you're done?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. And you're welcome to read the rest of the

15 document if you want to, but I'm not going to ask you

16 anything else about anything else on the document.

17 A. (Witness reviews document.)

18 MR. FARR: Let's go ahead and mark this as

19 Exhibit 4.

20 (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)

21 Q. Are you done?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. Let me have you read one other Exhibit.

24 Exhibit 4 is minutes from the Forsyth County Board of

25 Elections for October 15th, 2013 and the only thing that

68

1 I need for you to read on there is on page 2 where it

2 talks about list maintenance cards. And once you finish

3 reading that I'll ask you questions about Winston-Salem

4 State.

5 A. Okay. (Witness reviews document.)

6 Q. Okay. So these minutes relate to stuff that

7 happened at Winston-Salem State before you were in your

8 position you're in right now?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Where were you working in September of 2013?

11 A. I was acting postmaster of Charlotte, North

12 Carolina.

13 Q. Okay. Now, clarify this for me, how was the

14 mail delivered to students at Winston-Salem State?

15 A. They have a unique zip code. It's 27110. So

16 all mail for Winston-Salem State University that gets

17 that zip code goes on direct transportation from the

18 processing facility in Greensboro directly to

19 Winston-Salem State University. None of -- none of that

20 mail goes through the Winston-Salem post office.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. The only thing that would go through the

23 Winston-Salem post office occasionally are pieces of

24 express mail that come in late, that type of stuff that

25 then they would send a carrier over to Winston-Salem

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1 State University to deliver a piece of express mail that

2 arrived late or something, but otherwise there's direct

3 transportation to and from the university, between that

4 and the processing facility.

5 Q. Okay. So, in reading Exhibit 3 and Exhibit 4,

6 somewhere in there I got the impression that the post

7 office has a contract with Winston-Salem State. Is that

8 true or false?

9 A. That's not necessarily a contract with them.

10 That's part of their requirements when they're receiving

11 mail as a university. There's a contract post office --

12 well, they call it a contract post office. It's not

13 even a contractor with us either. There's a facility on

14 Winston-Salem State that sells our goods and products,

15 but that's not even a contract facility of ours.

16 We don't have a contract per se with them, but

17 just like any other -- I can't think of any colleges

18 that I've come across in the state of North Carolina

19 that didn't have -- that they either picked up directly

20 from the processing facility or they get the mail

21 directly to them and they have a unique zip code

22 assigned to them and they handle the mail.

23 Q. And are there any sort of documents that

24 govern the relationship between the Postal Service and

25 these universities that handle their mail on their own?

70

1 A. They're supposed to follow the guidelines

2 where it's covered for the most part in the Domestic

3 Mail Manual in regards to how they should handle not

4 just mail that is deliverable but mail that's

5 undeliverable. Because if you go to school at

6 Winston-Salem State University, you can't put in a

7 change of address with the Postal Service. You notify

8 Winston-Salem State University, hey, here's my new

9 address and they're required to put the new address on

10 the mail piece and then the postage is still -- for

11 forwarding is covered under the price of first-class

12 postage. So they would still stick it in -- they

13 would -- they should return it back to us with a new

14 address and it would go on to the new address. If

15 it's -- if it's endorsed they should handle it just like

16 we would. So if it's endorsed for return service

17 requested, then that should be isolated and be going

18 back to the sender.

19 Q. Okay. So you just raised a lot of issues I

20 need to ask you questions about. It was very helpful --

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. -- but I have a few questions. So are there

23 standards that the universities are supposed to follow

24 in the delivery of the mail to the students, I mean,

25 Postal Service standards?

71

1 A. It's covered -- and I wish -- you know, with

2 so many rules and regulations --

3 Q. Mr. Roberts, just do the best you can. We

4 don't expect you to know everything --

5 A. I know there is a section in the Domestic Mail

6 Manual of how they should handle that mail volume.

7 Q. Okay. So Exhibit 4 refers to the Domestic

8 Mail Manual I think if you'll look at that under list

9 maintenance.

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. These are minutes of the Board of Elections

12 meeting. They're quoting one of the members who said

13 that he quoted the USPS Domestic Mail Manual. Is that

14 what you think you're referring to?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. So the Domestic Mail Manual establishes

17 standards that universities are supposed to follow if

18 they're going to have their own internal postal service

19 for students?

20 A. It covers many, many aspects of anything

21 domestically whether receiving mail even if you're

22 living at an address. It basically covers all gamuts of

23 accepting and receiving mail to include how mail should

24 be prepared if you use a meter or, you know, it covers

25 all aspects of sending and receiving mail within the

72

1 United States.

2 Q. Okay. And that would -- those standards would

3 apply to any university that distributes mail to its

4 students or faculty the way Winston-Salem State does; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes. There is a section in it also that

7 covers military units. It covers hotel agreements,

8 'cause typically a person can receive mail that's

9 staying at a hotel, but it kind of falls under the same

10 guidelines. It's addressed to the hotel. So the hotel

11 is required to handle that mail the same way.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So there's section in the Domestic Mail Manual

14 that discuss those type of agreements.

15 Q. So there would be standards in the domestic

16 manual that would apply, for example, to the postal

17 operations done by the military at Fort Bragg?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does the Postal Service ever audit entities

20 that are handling mail such as the way mail is handled

21 at Winston-Salem State University?

22 A. From the customer service side, where I can

23 only speak from, not that I'm aware of. I believe, you

24 know, at times they are subject to auditing or

25 investigation I believe by both the inspections, U.S.

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1 Postal Inspection Service as well as the OIG, but I'm

2 not aware of any -- anything that requires that we do an

3 audit on them. We do on our contracted post offices,

4 someone that we have a contract, we do quarterly audits

5 on them, but not on a university or any type of military

6 base.

7 Q. Are there any ramifications to Winston-Salem

8 State if they're not following the policies and

9 standards that are set by the Domestic Manual as far as

10 you know?

11 A. I'm not sure what they would be. I'm sure

12 they're covered somehow under law and that someone could

13 definitely find themselves facing serious charges by

14 doing something they shouldn't, but I'm not sure that --

15 that would generally I believe be handled by the Postal

16 Inspection Service or the OIG, depending on the

17 circumstances, that I'm aware of.

18 Q. Okay. All right. So at Winston-Salem State

19 the processing plant delivers the mail to the -- can I

20 call it the university's postal shop?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And those employees are employed by?

23 A. The university.

24 Q. They're not employees of the Postal Service?

25 A. No, sir.

74

1 Q. And the standards that they would need to

2 follow to deliver mail to students or faculty would be

3 the same standards that apply to postal workers?

4 A. Yeah, I would say so on that. They could face

5 the same -- you know what, I can't tell you for certain.

6 I don't -- I don't want to say for certain that --

7 because we -- the Postal Service considers the mail

8 delivered when it gets in the hands of the university.

9 So I'm not sure, you know, if the federal government

10 would take up a charge or if that would be left -- like

11 say, for instance, a university employee is stealing

12 from that mail, or if it would be handled by, you know,

13 local authorities and then a district attorney.

14 If we have an employee that's stealing mail,

15 if we're going to take charges, it's usually a federal

16 attorney that's handling the charges. It's not like --

17 we don't go to the local district attorney to press

18 charges on a postal employee, but I can't tell you a

19 hundred percent how that would be handled.

20 Q. So do you -- does your district encompass

21 Durham?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. So -- and your district encompasses Guilford

24 County?

25 A. Yeah. Yes.

75

1 Q. Okay. And does your district encompass

2 Watauga County?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So there's major universities in all those

5 counties?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Do they handle their mail the same way

8 Winston-Salem State does?

9 A. It's all under the same -- either they pick

10 up -- Duke University, for instance, has a lot of mail

11 that goes directly to them. They also pick up a lot

12 from one of the stations that's close to Duke where some

13 of the mail goes through that location, but it all --

14 they all have unique zip codes and they're all

15 responsible for the finalization of the mail. We don't

16 take any -- we don't forward any mail for any student

17 from any university that's using the address of the

18 university or the zip code of the university. The only

19 way we would is if they're renting a P.O. box from us

20 and then we would forward their mail from the P.O. Box.

21 Q. So when the -- let's go back to Winston-Salem

22 State as an example. When the mail is received by the

23 university's postal shop, who is then responsible for

24 getting the letters to students or faculty who have used

25 that zip code for their mail?

76

1 A. The employees there.

2 Q. Do you know how they do that at Winston-Salem

3 State?

4 A. No, I don't. I'm not sure if they have their

5 own. You know, with some of the universities I've been

6 in they have their own type of P.O. box system that they

7 deliver to. You know, at some of the smaller schools

8 sometimes they just go to a mailroom and pick up, but

9 off the top of my head I don't know exactly how it's

10 finalized at Winston-Salem State.

11 Q. Okay. Now, you said that if a student had

12 campus -- a campus residence and was using the zip code

13 for the university and they decided to move, you said

14 they'd have to fill out a change of address form and

15 give it to the university's postal shop?

16 A. Whatever their system they have in place to do

17 their change of address with the university, that's what

18 they do and then, you know, I can speak for -- I have a

19 little bit more experience with the University of North

20 Carolina in Charlotte.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. So where they have a pretty good system to

23 where they could easily just print out the new label.

24 They have printers with -- so they print out the correct

25 mailing address on a label for a student that had moved.

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1 At least that's how they used to do it a couple years

2 ago when I was there. So they might have a database

3 where they print out something and apply it.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Instead of having to hand write all those

6 addresses.

7 MR. FARR: Okay. Let me pull out an exhibit

8 right now that might be helpful. Can we go off the

9 record for a second.

10 (Discussion off the record.)

11 BY MR. FARR:

12 Q. Let's go back on the record and tell me why

13 you did that.

14 A. Because this mail piece has been processed

15 prior to this getting on it. (Indicating.)

16 Q. Let's just talk about it on the record.

17 MR. BECK: Has it been marked as an exhibit?

18 MR. FARR: I'm going to. I just wanted you to

19 look at it. Let's leave the original out. We're

20 up to Exhibit 5?

21 THE REPORTER: Yes.

22 (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)

23 BY MR. FARR:

24 Q. So, Mr. Roberts, I've handed you Exhibit 5.

25 Let me tell you what that is. We're going to get to

78

1 this later, but I thought it might be helpful now in

2 connection with Winston-Salem State. As part of this

3 litigation the defendants conducted a mailing of a

4 category of voters on the state voter registration rolls

5 called removed voters because we wanted to see how many

6 cards would be returned. And that's one of the cards

7 that was returned pursuant to that mailing. So we'll

8 get into this in more detail subsequently, but I wanted

9 you to know what that was before I talked to you about

10 Winston-Salem State. The reason I pulled it out now is

11 because you said at Winston-Salem State that if the

12 student -- the student would fill out a change of

13 address form with the university?

14 A. They'd notify the university of their new

15 address.

16 Q. Okay. They're supposed to do that?

17 A. Yeah. I mean, otherwise the university

18 wouldn't have a place to forward their mail to. If they

19 fill out a change of address and give it to us, we

20 wouldn't recognize it.

21 Q. Okay, good. That's what I wanted -- you said

22 that earlier. But also if the student was graduating,

23 he wouldn't necessarily fill out a change of address

24 form with the university under those circumstances,

25 would he?

79

1 A. I don't know why they wouldn't. They tend to

2 get a good amount of mail.

3 Q. Well, do you know whether everybody does that

4 or?

5 A. No, I mean, I can't tell you, but just ...

6 Q. That would make sense --

7 A. It would make sense.

8 Q. -- to me as a 60-year-old adult, but I'm not

9 sure --

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. -- about 20-year-olds.

12 A. You're absolutely right with the way they

13 communicate through their phones.

14 Q. So you were saying that if the student had

15 done a change of address form with the college or

16 university, you said they put a label on something that

17 had been mailed to them?

18 A. That's what I found a lot of the universities

19 to do to make it an easier process for them because they

20 put -- if it's being forwarded they put -- they're

21 required to put the new address on.

22 Q. Is that -- would it be similar to what I've

23 just shown you with Exhibit 5?

24 A. No. That's been applied by us. That's one of

25 our labels from our postal automated redirection system.

80

1 Q. Right. But how would the label that the

2 university would put on be different?

3 A. It's something that they've generated. This

4 is from our equipment that generates it, but it might

5 just be that they do a lookup and print out a label that

6 has their -- and a lot of times I found they'll just put

7 it right over the previous address. So the address, you

8 know, they might -- they might cover up the address, but

9 leave the name. Some of them have the name and address

10 and they know they're putting the right sticker on it.

11 You know, it's up to them really how they do it.

12 Otherwise, they hand write -- they would hand write what

13 the new address is.

14 Q. Okay. Now, with the -- would Winston-Salem

15 State forward the mailing to --

16 A. Well --

17 Q. Wait, I have to finish my question.

18 A. I'm sorry.

19 Q. Again, this is because of her. We want to be

20 nice to the court reporter because it's all over if she

21 gets mad and leaves.

22 When the student has filled out a change of

23 address form or whatever Winston-Salem State would

24 require and they put a label on the piece of mail with

25 the new address, would that be forwarded to the student

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1 or would it be sent back to the sender?

2 A. If they're putting a new address on it, then

3 it should be -- it shouldn't be endorsed return service

4 requested. Otherwise, they should be sending it back to

5 the sender unable to forward.

6 Q. So, in other words, if the person that mails

7 it requests return service, that means it's going to get

8 sent back to the sender?

9 A. It should, yes.

10 Q. And would the new address be placed on the

11 card for the sender to be able to observe when the card

12 was returned to them or would they not put the address

13 on it?

14 A. My guess is probably most of the universities

15 you'd find they'd just return to sender. They wouldn't

16 put the new address on is what I would give the best

17 educated guess I could.

18 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you've read I think

19 Exhibits 3 and 4 and you can refer to them if you want,

20 but can you see that the Forsyth County Board of

21 Elections reported a problem with Winston-Salem State

22 not returning these verification cards that they had

23 sent to students at Winston-Salem State?

24 A. Right. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever seen that happen

82

1 before at any other colleges where the college has not

2 returned the cards to the sender?

3 A. No, not in my experience, not with -- you

4 know, I usually in a lot of my positions where I had a

5 university had dealings with the mailrooms and at times

6 we have dealings with -- especially around election time

7 with the Board of Elections. We might even -- I know

8 this past year prior to the election we had a conference

9 call with the leadership of our district, our marketing

10 department and made it open to all the -- I believe all

11 the Board of Elections that we covered in our district

12 just to see if there were issues arising, but I'm not

13 aware of anything else like that that I've ever heard

14 of.

15 Q. All right. Since you've raised that, I'm sure

16 others in the room will want to know when did that call

17 take place, before the election?

18 A. It was before the election, yeah. It was

19 before the last election.

20 Q. General election in 2014?

21 A. Yes. It was probably like somewhere

22 mid-October.

23 Q. Okay. Who initiated the phone call?

24 A. That would be Randall Anderson.

25 Q. And who is Randall Anderson?

83

1 A. Marketing manager for the Greensboro district.

2 Q. So it was Randall's idea to have a phone call

3 with the Board of Elections?

4 A. I don't know if it was his because it's a

5 practice that they've done in the Greensboro district

6 before I came to this district, but I don't know whose

7 idea it was, but he oversees not just marketing, but

8 like consumer affairs, so any complaints that come in.

9 And, generally, whether it's a Board of Elections or

10 whether it's a congressman's office or a senator's

11 office, whether it's a state representative, if they

12 have issues concerning mail delivery any way whatsoever

13 it would come through his department.

14 So in order to be proactive to see if there

15 was any issues that were coming up or being reported

16 that they had a conference call to make certain that

17 they knew who to contact in the event there's an issue

18 and, you know, if they had any questions regarding

19 anything that they might have.

20 Q. Are you aware of any complaints that had been

21 made by the State Board of Elections about the Postal

22 Service?

23 A. Not -- not off the top of my head, no.

24 Q. Okay. Do you remember who attended or who was

25 present -- this was a conference call?

84

1 A. Yes, it was a conference call. So I'm not

2 sure who -- what all counties participated, but I

3 believe, if recollection serves me, it was at least put

4 out to the counties that our district serves.

5 Q. Okay. County Boards of Election or county

6 post offices?

7 A. No, it wasn't county post offices. It was --

8 I'm real certain that County Board of Elections. And

9 I'm not sure how he triggered that, if he went through

10 the State Board of Elections. You know, we try to have

11 good open communications with not just election boards,

12 but also we try to quarterly meet with a representative

13 from each congressman's office, state senator's office,

14 we'll have a meeting. Some show up for our

15 congressional meetings, some don't, but ...

16 Q. Well, do you remember anyone from the State

17 Board of Elections being in on this conference call?

18 A. To tell you the truth, I can't tell you

19 whether there was or not.

20 Q. Okay. Did anybody keep minutes?

21 A. I'm sure there probably is a record of who

22 attended and when it was exactly.

23 Q. Okay. And do you recall any issues coming up

24 in the conference call?

25 A. Not that I can recall, nothing that I had to

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1 answer to or have to take action on.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. We were trying to be very proactive with

4 making sure if there were any complaints, especially

5 with absentee ballots that we were getting them, you

6 know, properly round dated.

7 Q. Have there been any issues -- someone is going

8 to be interested in this -- have there been issues in

9 the past about the Postal Service not postmarking

10 absentee ballots?

11 A. I believe that has been an issue in the past

12 where there were some complaints filed.

13 Q. Has the Postal Service done anything to try to

14 make sure that doesn't happen in the future?

15 A. Yes. Basically, by making certain that if it

16 gets into our hands to where we can round date, you

17 know, ideally everything that's going through our system

18 will get a cancellation. It doesn't always, but what we

19 do is try to communicate and we'll be very proactive in

20 making certain that all the locations -- especially if

21 it's a location where the mail is going back to where we

22 serve a Board of Elections in that -- out of that

23 office, that if there's stuff that's coming in that we

24 try to verify that mail that has a round dater, we round

25 date it.

86

1 Q. Okay. So why don't you make sure I understand

2 the terms, a round date?

3 A. We call it a round date. That's a postmark,

4 I'm sorry. That's a terminology we use.

5 Q. When is the postmark put on the piece of mail?

6 A. If you go up to a window and request that it

7 is postmarked then, it's going to get -- the sales and

8 service associate would postmark it. We have --

9 Q. What about somebody just puts -- someone that

10 has -- you understand that absentee ballots are returned

11 by mail?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they're in a container envelope, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Someone puts that in a post office box

16 somewhere, when is that going to get a postmark?

17 A. Hopefully it gets a postmark at the -- going

18 through the processing.

19 Q. Okay. Which happens on the same day that the

20 person puts it in the post office box?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Unless they put them in the post office box

23 after pick up?

24 A. Right, then it would be the following day.

25 Q. Okay. All right. So you don't remember any

87

1 particular issues that came up in this conference with

2 the State Board of Elections or the Boards of Elections

3 in October of 2014?

4 A. No, not that I can recall.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I'm not saying that there wasn't anything, but

7 nothing sticks out. It was more just for -- it ended up

8 being more for communication and opening up that line of

9 communication.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let's go back to

11 Winston-Salem State, did you see the allegations or the

12 allegations by the board chairman that there were a

13 number of cards that weren't returned?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay. If they were following the standards

16 that apply to the postal workers, when should those

17 cards have been returned?

18 A. The same -- they should have gone out that day

19 or the very next day on their outgoing transportation in

20 the evening.

21 Q. Okay. And how should they -- how should they

22 have been returned?

23 A. They would have processed that return to

24 sender.

25 Q. Winston-Salem State, how should they have

88

1 returned the cards?

2 A. So it would have been in with other

3 return-to-sender mail. They're not -- we wouldn't make

4 them isolated to the sender's address, but they should

5 generally prepare return-to-sender mail and other mail

6 depending on what it is.

7 Q. Okay. Now, would it be proper for Postal

8 Service workers to just jump in the car and drive those

9 return cards over to the center themselves?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And why wouldn't that be proper?

12 A. We generally wouldn't do that. The only --

13 the only reason why I could think we would ever do

14 something like that is because it was something that was

15 found or reported or brought to our attention and we

16 wanted to expedite it, but otherwise it would go with

17 the normal channels of however the mail would go.

18 Q. Do you ever recall a circumstance where the

19 Postal Service did not process the return mail the way

20 you've described to me?

21 A. No.

22 Q. If you didn't process it the way you described

23 to me the Postal Service wouldn't be able to keep track

24 of the letters that were being returned?

25 A. Right. We will at times go to great

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1 lengths -- I've got in the car and driven a man's check

2 50 miles that got redirected and he was desperate. And

3 so, I mean, we'll go above and beyond what our normal

4 means are to do the right thing for the customer. The

5 customer sometimes isn't always the sender. It might be

6 the receiver, but I'm not aware of anything regarding

7 the Board of Elections.

8 Q. Okay. So the university postal shops should

9 have returned those cards essentially the day they were

10 received?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And they should have returned them to the

13 Postal Service?

14 A. Right. They would send that out with their

15 outgoing mail.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go back, we'll leave

17 this out for a second in case you want to look at that.

18 Exhibit 1, you recalled reading the testimony in there

19 about how the State Board of Elections attempts to

20 verify voters through the mail verification process?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Okay. Do you know or understand what removed

23 voter means? Is that explained in that testimony?

24 A. I might have seen it. And they're not on the

25 rolls?

90

1 Q. Right. Does that mean they've been taken off

2 the voter rolls, removed from the voter rolls?

3 A. I believe that's the case.

4 (Exhibit 6 marked for identification.)

5 Q. Let me hand you another exhibit, Exhibit 6.

6 Mr. Roberts, these are some excerpts from a deposition

7 of an individual named Gary Bartlett that used to be the

8 executive director of the State Board of Elections. And

9 I'd like for you to read starting on its page 144, line

10 18 through page 146, line 12. If you could just read

11 that to yourself and let me know when you're done.

12 A. (Witness reviews document.)

13 Q. Are you ready?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Do you see on page 146 where

16 Mr. Bartlett says that common sense will tell you that

17 letters mailed to removed voters should all be returned?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to hand you something

20 else to look at, which we're going to mark as exhibit

21 what?

22 THE REPORTER: Seven.

23 MR. FARR: Seven. We may want to take a

24 break, go off the record so he can read this.

25 Let's just go off the record.

91

1 (Discussion off the record.)

2 (Exhibit 7 marked for identification.)

3 (Brief recess.)

4 (Ms. Riggs not present in room.)

5 BY MR. FARR:

6 Q. Mr. Roberts, I've handed you -- I think we've

7 marked this Exhibit 7. Have you seen this before?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. Okay. Have you had time to read it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. So this is a Declaration by Mr. Charles

12 Underwood which he signed on June 2nd, 2014. It's on

13 page 3 I think, if you can just confirm that.

14 A. Correct. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And you see he says he's the president

16 on page 1 of the affidavit, not the cover page, but the

17 first page, he's the president of something called Metro

18 Productions?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Which he says is a marketing communications

21 company with a focus on direct mail, do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And do you see that he says that he

24 received a copy of the type of card that the State Board

25 of Elections sends out to voters to verify their

92

1 residence as Exhibit 1, do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And do you see that he said that they

4 were asked to create a card to be used for a card

5 mailing?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That's in paragraph 4.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the card that he designed for this card

10 mailing was attached as Exhibit 2?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And that's the -- that's basically the

13 same card that we looked at before --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- which is Exhibit 5?

16 A. (Witness nods.)

17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And then he says that they mailed 2,400

20 removed voters from the SPE list, do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And they requested return service for all

23 those cards?

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. And that's consistent with what we've looked

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93

1 at with Exhibit 5 previously?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let's make sure I've got the right number. Do

4 you have the exhibit copy of that?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. It's right there. Let's make sure we have the

7 right number, Exhibit 5?

8 A. Yeah, it's Exhibit 5.

9 Q. Okay. Turn to the second page of his

10 affidavit. He talks about how many of those cards were

11 returned. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. So he says as of April 29th, 600 cards were

14 returned out of the 2,400 that were mailed. Do you see

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that -- and that was about -- that was

18 more than a month after the original mailing on

19 April 11th? Or excuse me --

20 A. No, that was a week -- well, about --

21 Q. Was it 18 days?

22 A. -- twelve days.

23 Q. Eighteen days; is that right?

24 A. The 17th?

25 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

94

1 A. April 17th. That's okay.

2 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you for correcting that. And

3 then that went up to 1,075 cards returned as of

4 May 12th?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. That would have been a month after the

7 mailing?

8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. Right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So that was about 475 cards more than were

12 returned two weeks after the mailing, do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Do you have any explanation for why 600

15 cards got returned within two weeks and another 475 got

16 returned within the next two weeks?

17 MR. BECK: Objection to the form of the

18 question, but you can answer it if you can.

19 THE WITNESS: No, I can't tell you why that

20 may have occurred.

21 BY MR. FARR:

22 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 5 is one of the cards that

23 were returned and you've already testified that that was

24 something that was processed by the Postal Service?

25 A. Yes.

95

1 Q. And how could you tell that?

2 A. Well, the type of label, it's just got our

3 information on it and it was treated as nixie mail.

4 This is a date that it was processed on May 7th was

5 that. And it looked like this piece had been previously

6 processed. It was unable to forward, had a previous bar

7 code applied.

8 Q. How about doing me a favor, tell me everything

9 that you can tell about that card from your examination

10 of that original version of Exhibit 5.

11 A. Just that it got this label applied on the 7th

12 of May.

13 Q. The yellow label?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And it was processed in Greensboro 'cause of

17 the 274. There's some other information on this that I

18 would need to refer to a system we have that would be

19 able to give more information. I forget, depending on

20 what asterisk is in front of that number, like it's an

21 asterisk in front of this, depending on what --

22 sometimes what the symbol is, that can tell you more

23 information as far as how it was processed.

24 Q. Okay. But let me ask you, you have Exhibit

25 5, the original, in your hands. That says on there

96

1 "return service requested." Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So if those cards were mailed to people who no

4 longer reside at the address listed on that card then

5 all those cards should have been returned to the Board

6 of Elections -- or, excuse me, to Metro Productions?

7 A. If we know they no longer reside there.

8 Q. Right. Okay. And if the -- the yellow label,

9 does it say "return to sender, not deliverable as

10 addressed, unable to forward," what does that mean?

11 A. That means we can't deliver it as it is

12 addressed because Emmanuel Salak is not there and unable

13 to forward because return service requested.

14 Q. Okay. If he had given a change of address to

15 the Postal Service would that have been listed on the

16 label?

17 A. Yeah, it normally would be.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And it would still be unable to forward, but

20 it would give the sender.

21 Q. You wouldn't have forwarded it because Metro

22 Productions asked that it be sent back to them?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. But if he had given a change of address that

25 would have been listed on the label?

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97

1 A. Yeah, generally.

2 Q. Okay. All right. And then going back to

3 paragraph 7, I think we stopped off we had 1,075 cards

4 were delivered as of May 12th, which was 600 more -- or

5 excuse me, 475 more than were delivered as of

6 April 29th. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then he reports another 106 were returned

9 as of May 14th, 2014; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You got to check my math because that's why I

12 went to law school. And then there were another 36

13 cards returned as of May 29th -- May 19th?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And then they got an additional --

16 A. Fifteen.

17 Q. -- fifteen cards returned as of June 2nd --

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. -- 2014?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, again, do you have any idea why there

22 would be such a disparity between the dates that the

23 cards were returned?

24 A. My best educated guess would be because at the

25 time of delivery the carrier didn't know they weren't

98

1 there, so they would have been delivered and then as

2 they came back into our hands we returned them.

3 Q. Okay. So these cards could have been returned

4 because the carrier knew that they didn't live there

5 anymore?

6 A. Right, or that they got back into the hands of

7 the carrier, you know, saying this person is not at this

8 address. You know, sometimes people sit on mail for a

9 couple of days, a week or longer.

10 Q. Right. So these cards would have been

11 returned to sender because the person might have given

12 the Postal Service a change of address form?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And they could be returned because the carrier

15 knew the person didn't live there anymore?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Is that a yes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they could have been returned because the

20 recipient put the letter back into the post office box

21 or gave it back to the Postal Service somehow?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Or it could have been returned because the

25 forwarding order was expired.

99

1 Q. Okay. All right.

2 A. Or they never received mail there before.

3 Q. Okay. Well, these were like people that were

4 registered with the State Board of Elections at one

5 point in time.

6 A. I'm saying based on the knowledge of the

7 carrier.

8 Q. Okay. And so they mailed 2,400 cards as

9 indicated in paragraph 6 and as of June 2nd only 1,132

10 had been returned?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So the majority of the cards weren't returned?

13 A. Not according to what they -- their test

14 mailing.

15 Q. And one of the reasons why the cards wouldn't

16 be returned is because the recipient would not have

17 given it back to the Postal Service?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And --

20 A. Or to -- I mean, I guess the only thing I'm

21 not sure of is who's the authority saying that that

22 person doesn't get mail at that address of this test

23 mailing?

24 Q. Well, the cards were returned.

25 A. No. I'm saying for the ones that weren't

100

1 returned, is it the State saying that person absolutely

2 doesn't receive mail at that address? I'm a little

3 confused.

4 Q. No. What the state -- you read the testimony

5 from the executive director of the Board of Elections,

6 Gary Bartlett --

7 A. They came off the roll.

8 Q. -- right?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. And he said removed voters if you sent them a

11 letter it ought to be returned. Do you remember that

12 testimony?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I'm just asking you if one of the reasons

15 why they might not have been returned is because the

16 recipient didn't give the card back to the Postal

17 Service, is that one of the reasons why they might not

18 be returned?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Is it possible they weren't returned

21 because somewhere somebody in the Postal Service didn't

22 return the cards, didn't process the cards for being

23 returned, is that a possibility?

24 A. Not likely, no.

25 Q. Okay. What are the other possibilities for

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101

1 why the cards wouldn't be returned?

2 A. That we possibly deliver mail to that address

3 to that name and they do receive mail there. That's

4 what I'm not sure -- they might have been removed from

5 the rolls, but I'm not certain where there's any

6 definitive proof that those people don't get mail at the

7 address that it was addressed to.

8 Q. Do you know?

9 A. I'm not trying to be hard-headed.

10 Q. I understand.

11 A. I'm just trying to comprehend exactly what the

12 test represents.

13 Q. Do you know anything about the mail

14 verification process that the State Board of Elections

15 follows to remove voters?

16 A. Not completely, no.

17 Q. Okay. So you don't know how many prior

18 mailings these people might have received before they

19 were removed?

20 A. Well, are those the ones that would have

21 gotten two saying that they -- coming back to them?

22 Q. Could have been.

23 A. Otherwise, for such a difference in numbers

24 it's odd to me.

25 Q. Okay.

102

1 A. It just seems odd.

2 Q. All right. Some of those people could have

3 moved and not filled out a change of address form?

4 A. But they should still come back to you if

5 we're aware that they moved. It should still go back to

6 Metro Productions.

7 Q. Right. If the Postal Service people -- if the

8 carrier knows they don't live there anymore?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But if the carrier doesn't know that the

11 carrier would have no idea that they should be returned?

12 A. Correct.

13 MR. FARR: Okay. Those are all my questions.

14 MR. RUSS: Could we take a break?

15 MR. FARR: Sure.

16 (Brief recess.)

17 EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. BECK:

19 Q. Let me direct your attention to Exhibit Number

20 7, the Declaration of Charles Underwood. Do you know

21 the underlying -- underlying methodology that Metro

22 Productions used in making this mailing that's referred

23 to in the Declaration? Do you know what Metro

24 Productions' methodology was with regard to this

25 mailing?

103

1 A. No.

2 Q. With regard to the definition of removed

3 voters, do you know what the definition of removed

4 voters includes?

5 A. Just I think what I had read, but that they

6 could either not be there, they've moved out of state or

7 they could also be a felon I believe.

8 Q. Do you know whether -- do you know whether the

9 list that is attached to Exhibit 7 has been

10 cross-referenced to eliminate any felons that are on

11 that particular list?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. With regard to the difference between 2,400

14 cards being mailed on April 17th, 2014 and June 2nd,

15 2014, 1,132 being returned, have you seen anything in

16 your postal experience that is consistent with that kind

17 of nondelivery rate?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What are some possible explanations of why

20 there would not -- those cards would not have been

21 returned?

22 A. It could have to do with the mailing list. It

23 seems like -- can I see the card again? I'm not a mail

24 piece design expert, so I can't tell you if it ideally

25 fits our ideal dimensions on postcard mailing. If --

104

1 that could have caused issues to where, you know -- but

2 then even I would think a damage rate would still be

3 fairly low. But aside from the mailing list being used,

4 I'm not sure what else may have caused -- you know, it's

5 nowhere near the rate of information we get from mailers

6 regularly.

7 Q. I'd like for you to compare Exhibit 5 with --

8 what is Exhibit 5?

9 A. That's the mail piece that had gone to

10 Mocksville.

11 Q. And I'd like for you to compare it to Exhibit

12 1 to the Declaration of Charles Underwood, which we've

13 marked in this deposition as Exhibit 7. So when you

14 compare Exhibit 5 to Exhibit 1 of Mr. Underwood's

15 Declaration which we've marked Exhibit 7, what are the

16 differences between the two mailings?

17 A. Well, for one, I can't tell you the exact

18 dimensions of this mailing 'cause it's a photocopy. It

19 looks like it was potentially larger. Aside from that,

20 you know, without having the mail piece, the only thing

21 I could say it could potentially be of a different size.

22 Q. With regard to Exhibit 1, does Exhibit 1 have

23 any markings or other information that Exhibit 5 does

24 not have?

25 A. Just that it's officially election mail and

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105

1 this exhibit doesn't have the postage applied, this one

2 does. (Indicating.)

3 Q. With regard to those mailings that

4 Mr. Underwood refers to and those that were not

5 returned, is it possible that the addressee was actually

6 living at that address?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me give you some examples. For example,

9 if you had a college student who put in a change of

10 address when they left their parents' home and then they

11 came back to that residence, would the mail be returned

12 to the Postal Service if that college student is now

13 actually living in their parents' home where the

14 mail was addressed?

15 A. No. We would deliver that.

16 Q. From your experience with the Postal Service,

17 are there other instances in which people put in a

18 change of address and then they move back to their

19 previous residence?

20 A. Yes. That occurs as well as sometimes a

21 change of address will be put in by a person and they

22 list family when it should have only been that

23 individual, which is going to trigger a family move.

24 Sometimes -- a lot of times when we run into

25 change of address problems, one unique issue we have a

106

1 lot of times is if it's two people of the same name,

2 like a father and son, but one's a senior, one's a

3 junior, the system doesn't know the difference unless

4 the mail is marked, if the change of address has the

5 senior or junior and the mail has the senior or junior,

6 that creates issues.

7 Q. You testified earlier with regard to the

8 automated system that checks outgoing mail and made

9 reference to a change of address inputs that are cross

10 checked against that outgoing system?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The change of address inputs, what could be

13 the sources of the data in that change of address

14 database that is bounced against the outgoing

15 processing, automation processing?

16 A. From either a change of address card generated

17 by the customer or a change of address card generated by

18 the carrier, which is basically stating that they didn't

19 not leave a change of address or an online change of

20 address that someone had done.

21 Q. Earlier in your deposition you indicated

22 that -- I believe I heard this, and I just want to make

23 sure we have a chance to correct it -- that North

24 Carolina has 105 counties; is that accurate?

25 A. I believe so.

107

1 MR. FARR: Did he say that?

2 MR. BECK: Maybe I misheard --

3 THE WITNESS: I think there's 105 counties in

4 the state.

5 MR. FARR: We'll all stipulate there's only a

6 hundred.

7 MR. BECK: That's why.

8 THE WITNESS: I might have been off by five.

9 I don't know why 105 was sticking.

10 MR. BECK: One hundred counties.

11 MR. FARR: I thought he said 105 post offices.

12 THE WITNESS: No, I said 105 counties. I was

13 thinking for some reason it was 105.

14 MR. FARR: We'll forgive you.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

16 BY MR. BECK:

17 Q. With regard to the mailing that is referred to

18 in Mr. Charles Underwood's Declaration, if a felon was

19 living at that particular address that the card was

20 mailed to, would the card be returned to the Postal

21 Service?

22 A. I don't know why it necessarily would be.

23 Only if someone gave it back to us. We would still

24 deliver it. We deliver mail to felons and non-felons.

25 MR. BECK: Okay. No further questions.

108

1 MR. FARR: Okay. I've got a few questions.

2 FURTHER EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. FARR:

4 Q. Mr. Beck is a U.S. attorney and someone for

5 whom I have very high regard. When he asks you a

6 question about what methodology was used by

7 Mr. Underwood what did that mean to you?

8 A. I guess in exactly verifying the accuracy of

9 the mailing list.

10 Q. Okay. Does he indicate in his affidavit that

11 he got the mailing -- the people who were mailed, he got

12 that from the State Board of Elections?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the State Board of Elections selected the

15 removed voters who he would mail?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Did methodology mean anything else to

18 you besides that?

19 A. Not really. Just that I believe he would have

20 access to a database to also cross-reference to see --

21 'cause there's systems that mailers can use that get

22 accurate information as far as people that have put in

23 change of addresses and not.

24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the State Board of

25 Elections uses those change of address resources that

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1 you've just described?

2 A. I don't know. It's available to them I

3 believe.

4 Q. But you don't know whether they actually use

5 those or not?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. There are vendors that we provide information

9 to that are certified vendors for the Postal Service.

10 Q. Okay. And then counsel asked you to describe

11 differences between Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 5. Do you

12 remember those questions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you recall that Mr. Underwood said that

15 Exhibit 1 is a sample voter verification card used by

16 the Board of Elections?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That's in paragraph 4 of his affidavit, if you

19 look at that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And then he said that he basically got

22 a copy of that card so he could model the card he mailed

23 after the official card. Did you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know whether or not Exhibit 5 is any

110

1 different in size to Exhibit 1?

2 A. No, I was only, you know, looking at a

3 photocopy. It looked like it could possibly the

4 dimensions be different, but you can't see good direct

5 lines of the photocopy.

6 Q. Right. You can't tell one way or the other?

7 A. I can't tell one way or the other, or the

8 thickness of the paper.

9 Q. Okay. And you said, I didn't get this, you

10 said that return rate reported by other people that the

11 return -- the lack of cards being returned for

12 Mr. Underwood's mailing was at -- let me rephrase this,

13 make sure I say it the right way.

14 You said something about the people you worked

15 with or who reported to you reported a higher rate of

16 cards being returned than Mr. Underwood did?

17 A. No, not -- I didn't mean it to be that way.

18 It's just we get a lot of feedback by our customers, you

19 know, the Belks of this world and JC Penney's and

20 Netflix and big mailing houses that will also provide us

21 data on all kinds of things, like Netflix on the damage

22 rate of their DVDs going through our high-speed

23 equipment. And so it just -- from everything I see from

24 a service standard and what we, you know, always strive

25 for the best we can deliver, there's something that

111

1 tells me there's something odd about this mailing that

2 it's not a direct reflection that every piece was

3 undeliverable. I don't see how that kind of performance

4 would have been that low.

5 Q. Okay. Well, you said something about the

6 mailing lists can be different, right?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Like if you're doing like -- who did you say

9 you deal with, the companies?

10 A. There are some companies that -- off the top

11 of my head I can't even think of their names, but there

12 are some companies that extract the data. They're an

13 authorized vendor that then sell mailing lists based on

14 not just the address, but who's at the addresses.

15 Q. Right, but let's talk about that for a second.

16 How many times have you discussed or seen data from an

17 outside party company about the number of letters that

18 they sent out that were returned or not returned?

19 A. I don't see so much of that as in my earlier

20 experience that sometimes you could clearly see a bad

21 mailing list versus a good one because of the amount of

22 volume you saw going back, or if it wasn't a first-class

23 mailing, if it was a standard mailing being destroyed

24 because they were old mailing lists.

25 Q. Okay. So have you ever seen any data or had

112

1 any discussions with companies on the issue of

2 whether -- or the number of mailings that they sent to a

3 list that were returned or not returned?

4 A. What -- there will be at times reports on

5 complaints from large mailers in regards to response

6 rates from mailings. We live more by that, but also at

7 times, depending on the mailer and exactly how large of

8 a mailing it was, it would possibly trigger

9 communications and some investigation into why a

10 specific mailing for a mailer was potentially not

11 deliverable.

12 Q. Okay. But so -- we have a report here about

13 cards mailed to a particular list and how many were

14 returned.

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Have you ever looked at any reports similar to

17 that?

18 A. No, not an outside testing of something like

19 that where -- because normally what we're dealing with

20 is they're looking for an anticipated response rate,

21 whether it's triggered by a sale, you know, customer

22 showing up with a specific mailing or a response back

23 from the mailing.

24 Q. That's different than how many cards are

25 returned?

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1 A. Right.

2 Q. So you've never really looked at a prior study

3 like this before that you can think of?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. And these other mailings that you were

6 referencing by private sector companies, do you know

7 whether or not they would typically make use of some of

8 these services that do more to determine whether the

9 person has moved?

10 A. Oh, yeah. You know, debit cards, credit

11 cards, you know, they always want that information back.

12 They don't want it forwarded.

13 Q. Right. Those companies are looking to get a

14 response, a positive response from their customer when

15 they mail somebody; is that correct?

16 A. Right. Right. Or I would think they would

17 also be looking for that back, you know, either --

18 they're at times a little bit different in that it might

19 not be -- because they're mailing under a different way

20 to where it's a full-service mailing. So they're going

21 to get the information back electronically and the mail

22 piece will be destroyed by the Postal Service. But

23 these type of mailings aren't mailed under that

24 umbrella, but I would think -- I would think if they

25 mailed something and it was -- you know, the only way

114

1 they know that they should have gotten it back is either

2 it came back or the customer never called to activate

3 the card, you know, in the event of a credit card or a

4 debit card.

5 Q. But I'm just trying to make sure I understand

6 what you said when you were examined by Mr. Beck.

7 You've never actually looked at a study similar to the

8 one that Mr. Underwood conducted where he mailed a list

9 to see how many of the cards came back?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And the studies you're referring to are

12 mailings that commercial companies have made to try to

13 get some sort of consumer response?

14 A. Most of the stuff we get feedback on is

15 commercial mailings.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Because there's a lot more data tied to that

18 mail piece.

19 Q. Okay. But you haven't had any discussions or

20 you haven't looked at any studies about these commercial

21 mailings and how many of the letters were returned

22 because they were addressed to the wrong person?

23 A. No, 'cause normally --

24 Q. Was that no?

25 A. No.

115

1 Q. Now, looking at Exhibit 5, I just want to make

2 sure I understand, your testimony was that -- this is

3 the original?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. Under the Postal Service protocols if that

6 letter was delivered to somebody -- if that letter was

7 sent to an address where the addressee no longer lived,

8 it should have been returned by the Postal Service if

9 the Postal Service knew the person didn't live there

10 anymore?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you've read Exhibit 1, but you're not

13 a -- fair to say you're not an expert on the

14 verification process that the State Board of Elections

15 follows to verify the residence of voters?

16 A. That's safe to say, yes.

17 Q. And so the people on -- the people who were

18 mailed by Mr. Underwood who were listed in Exhibit --

19 let's see what number it is?

20 A. Seven.

21 Q. It's Exhibit -- it's Exhibit 7, but the people

22 who are listed who were mailed are attached to part of

23 Exhibit 3 to his affidavit, do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Do you know how many mailings that were

116

1 sent to these individuals by the State Board of

2 Elections or the County Boards before they were put in

3 the removed category?

4 A. Not for certain, no.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know anything about their voter

6 history?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know how long any of these people may

9 not have voted or had any contact with County Board of

10 Elections?

11 A. No.

12 MR. FARR: Okay. That's all I have.

13 MR. BECK: Okay. Thank you very much.

14 MR. FARR: Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

15 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]

16 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:13 P.M.]

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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117

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

SS: )

2 COUNTY OF WAKE )

3

4

5 I, DEAN ROBERTS, declare under

6 the penalties of perjury under the State of North

7 Carolina that the foregoing is true and correct.

8 Executed on this _______ day of ___________

9 2015, at _____________________, North Carolina.

10

11

12

13 ___________________________

14 DEAN ROBERTS

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

118

1 TRANSCRIPTION CORRECTIONS

2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases

Witness Name: DEAN ROBERTS

3 Deposition Date: May 14, 2015

4

5 PAGE LINE READS SHOULD READ

6 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

7 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

8 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

9 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

10 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

11 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

12 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

13 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

14 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

15 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

16 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

17 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

18 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

19 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

20 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

21 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

22 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

23 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

24 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

25 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________

119

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA

2 COUNTY OF WAKE

3 C E R T I F I C A T E

4 I, MAREN M. FAWCETT, RPR, a Notary Public in

5 and for the State of North Carolina, do hereby certify

6 that there came before me on May 14, 2015, the person

7 hereinbefore named, who had been previously sworn to

8 testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his

9 knowledge concerning the matters in controversy in this

10 cause; that the witness was thereupon examined under

11 oath, the examination reduced to typewriting under my

12 direction; and the transcript is a true record of the

13 testimony given by the witness.

14 I further certify that I am neither attorney

15 or counsel for nor related to or employed by, any

16 attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or

17 financially interested in the action.

18 Signed this the _____ day of May, 2015.

19

20

21 ______________________________

Maren M. Fawcett, RPR

22 Notary Public - North Carolina

Certificate No.: 200621500068

23

24

25

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120

A

able 9:21 23:9

32:19 47:13

54:5 81:11

88:23 95:19

absentee 85:5,10

86:10

absolutely 5:24

13:25 41:12

42:6 79:12

100:1

accept 33:23

34:1

acceptable 29:5

accepted 30:12

accepting 71:23

access 108:20

accomplish

46:12

accuracy 108:8

accurate 24:6

29:5 59:11

66:13 106:24

108:22

achieve 42:8

acting 7:18 11:8

68:11

action 85:1

119:17

activate 114:2

actual 45:5

additional 97:15

address 16:21

16:22 17:6,7,8

17:9,16 18:9

18:11,16 20:1

20:6,7,13 21:3

22:18 23:2,11

23:15,17,20,24

24:2,3,10,12

24:14,20,25

25:4,5,6,12,16

25:23 26:6,15

27:10 28:16

36:23,23 37:16

37:21,23,25

38:4,6,10 41:4

42:17,20,25

43:16,19 44:9

44:10,21 45:4

45:6,9 46:7

47:3,15 48:25

49:1 51:6,15

51:17,17,24

52:1,8,9,12

53:6 54:1,8,14

54:20,20,22,25

55:4,5,6,13,16

55:24 56:16,17

56:19 58:15,21

59:1,23 60:16

62:4 66:13,14

70:7,9,9,14,14

71:22 75:17

76:14,17,25

78:13,15,19,23

79:15,21 80:7

80:7,8,9,13,23

80:25 81:2,10

81:12,16 88:4

96:4,14,24

98:8,12 99:22

100:2 101:2,7

102:3 105:6,10

105:18,21,25

106:4,9,12,13

106:16,17,19

106:20 107:19

108:25 111:14

115:7

addressed 16:1

18:2 28:16

37:11 48:21

51:3 52:1

55:22 56:15

57:6,11,20

59:20 60:5,15

62:3 72:10

96:10,12 101:7

105:14 114:22

addressee 25:25

64:18 105:5

115:7

addresses 25:8

27:9 38:22,24

38:24 50:25

77:6 108:23

111:14

adult 79:8

affairs 83:8

affidavit 91:16

93:10 108:10

109:18 115:23

affirmed 5:2

ago 11:5,7 50:4

55:24 58:18,21

77:2

agreements 72:7

72:14

ahead 14:2

67:18

Airborne 37:14

airport 7:25 8:1

al 1:4,8,10,13,17

1:22

allegations

87:11,12

ALLISON 3:8

allison@south...

3:11

America 1:19

3:12

amount 25:11

25:13 79:2

111:21

Anderson 82:24

82:25

ANGUAS 3:3

answer 85:1

94:18

anticipate 29:3

anticipated

46:19 112:20

anybody 84:20

anymore 59:23

60:16 62:4

98:5,15 102:8

115:10

Anytime 41:15

applied 17:10

29:12 38:15

44:21 45:11

47:15 79:24

95:7,11 105:1

applies 19:12

apply 16:13 17:7

19:24 20:1

42:8 72:3,16

74:3 77:3

87:16

appropriate

45:5

appropriately

28:14

approximately

11:8 54:18

62:9

April 14:7 93:13

93:19 94:1

97:6 103:14

area 8:12,16,17

8:23,24 13:3,4

13:4 29:20

30:7 35:7 40:3

42:4 61:22

areas 8:20 31:21

32:23 39:21

42:5,5,9,9

arising 82:12

arrived 69:2

Asheboro 7:5

Asheville 3:24

7:4

aside 104:3,19

asked 53:25 92:4

96:22 109:10

asking 100:14

asks 108:5

aspects 71:20,25

Assembly 4:14

14:5

assigned 69:22

associate 86:8

asterisk 95:20

95:21

Atlanta 8:20

attached 4:25

92:10 103:9

115:22

attempt 40:25

attempts 89:19

attended 83:24

84:22

attending 28:1

attention 61:22

64:15 88:15

102:19

attitude 64:22

attorney 5:12

74:13,16,17

108:4 119:14

119:16

audit 72:19 73:3

auditing 72:24

audits 73:4

authorities

74:13

authority 39:9

99:21

authorized

111:13

auto 20:11 44:15

60:23

automatable

18:13

automated

20:21 59:2

62:21 79:25

106:8

automatically

16:25 20:3

31:4 60:22

automation

106:15

available 61:11

109:2

averaging 32:20

awaiting 25:2

aware 26:22

27:15 43:15,15

48:12 49:3

54:4 56:13,21

57:8 65:11,15

66:20,23 72:23

73:2,17 82:13

83:20 89:6

102:5

B

back 10:3 16:18

16:23,25 17:10

19:13,23 20:11

20:15 25:20

26:12,16,20

27:3,6,13,18

28:9,23 29:23

40:24,25 44:21

45:11 47:6,8

47:21,23 48:2

48:9 49:1 50:5

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51:13 55:16,18

55:19 56:9,10

56:13,15,19,20

56:24 59:10,13

60:3,10,16

62:16 63:5,7

64:16 65:24

70:13,18 75:21

77:12 81:1,4,8

85:21 87:10

89:16 96:22

97:2 98:2,6,20

98:21 99:17

100:16 101:21

102:4,5 105:11

105:18 107:23

111:22 112:22

113:11,17,21

114:1,2,9

background

9:15

backup 50:5

bad 38:17

111:20

balance 64:4

balances 61:24

66:4

ballots 85:5,10

86:10

Baltimore 8:19

Banks 7:6 10:25

bar 16:24 19:13

19:23,24 20:2

20:3 23:14

29:12,13,15

30:5,11 31:2

38:15 45:24

46:1 53:12

95:6

bar-coded 16:14

barracks 36:3

37:9,21

Bartlett 4:22

90:7,16 100:6

base 30:3 35:20

35:25 36:6

73:6

based 13:20

29:12 50:10

62:5 99:6

111:13

bases 35:24

basic 26:24

basically 7:11

10:24 13:15

15:25 19:21

42:1 44:16

52:20 71:22

85:15 92:12

106:18 109:21

Beck 3:23 4:10

13:18,25 14:4

14:10 77:17

94:17 102:18

107:2,7,10,16

107:25 108:4

114:6 116:13

beginning 33:14

believe 25:20

48:16 66:1

72:23,25 73:15

82:10 84:3

85:11 90:3

103:7 106:22

106:25 108:19

109:3

Belks 110:19

belong 27:14

38:20 58:12

benefit 15:13

BERT 3:13

best 18:14 38:19

71:3 81:16

97:24 110:25

better 6:3 21:12

39:10,11

beyond 62:13

89:3

big 110:20

bigger 48:6

bin 20:9,13

21:25 52:25

bins 21:23

bit 9:14 41:14

53:13 65:22

76:19 113:18

block 23:12

board 3:17 4:18

4:18,19,20

40:19 41:4,5

43:24 48:5

67:6,24 71:11

81:20 82:7,11

83:3,9,21 84:8

84:10,17 85:22

87:2,12 89:7

89:19 90:8

91:24 96:5

99:4 100:5

101:14 108:12

108:14,24

109:16 115:14

116:1,9

boards 40:20

84:5,11 87:2

116:2

books 40:2

Boone 7:4

border 7:7 63:12

boss 7:16 12:13

12:18

bosses 7:14

bounced 106:14

box 16:7 30:21

30:23 33:18,22

35:10 41:24

43:17 50:17,19

50:22,23 51:2

51:3,5,6,8 58:7

58:22 59:14

75:19,20 76:6

86:15,20,22

98:20

boxes 30:17

50:14,20 51:10

51:11,12 63:11

Bragg 35:12,18

36:3,22 37:22

38:21,22,25

49:9 50:4,5,11

50:16,19 51:8

51:10 72:17

branch 10:4,6

break 6:5,9 49:5

90:24 102:14

breakdowns

60:9

breathe 28:25

39:20

Brennan 9:12,13

Brief 49:6 91:3

102:16

briefly 5:11

bringing 16:10

brings 34:10

broader 22:5

broken 13:3

19:18 34:20

brought 5:15

18:6 88:15

buffer 53:9,14

building 45:23

Burlington 42:1

47:15

butcher 8:8

C

C 3:1 119:3,3

California 16:17

call 8:2,5 12:5

18:4 29:25

30:10 34:4

44:14 69:12

73:20 82:9,16

82:23 83:2,16

83:25 84:1,17

84:24 86:3

called 19:7

34:17 78:5

91:17 114:2

caller 48:7

Camp 35:18

51:11

campus 76:12

76:12

cancel 16:11

canceled 19:16

canceler 19:9

cancellation

85:18

cap 8:17

capacity 1:7

car 88:8 89:1

card 23:25 25:4

25:5 81:11,11

91:24 92:4,4,9

92:9,13 95:9

96:4 100:16

103:23 106:16

106:17 107:19

107:20 109:15

109:22,22,23

114:3,3,4

cards 24:8 67:9

68:2 78:6,6

81:22 82:2

87:13,17 88:1

88:9 89:9

92:23 93:10,13

94:3,11,15,22

96:3,5 97:3,13

97:17,23 98:3

98:10 99:8,12

99:15,24

100:22,22

101:1 103:14

103:20 110:11

110:16 112:13

112:24 113:10

113:11 114:9

Carolina 1:1,3,8

1:10,16,22

2:11 3:17 6:25

7:1,3 9:1 10:3

10:19,20,22

11:2 14:4,7

20:9 30:18

31:17 33:2,8,9

33:24 68:12

69:18 76:20

106:24 117:1,7

117:9 119:1,5

119:22

Carolina-Virg...

7:7

carrier 10:1

12:7,7 16:8

18:18 21:10

24:4 25:1 26:3

26:9,17,21

27:4 29:20

32:2 36:24

52:2,11,17

55:23 56:1,2,5

56:9,10,20,21

56:24 57:25

58:16 59:7,12

59:22 60:13

62:11 68:25

97:25 98:4,7

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98:14 99:7

102:8,10,11

106:18

carriers 12:5

13:10,11,12

25:11,17 55:3

55:8 62:3,22

63:1

case 1:6,15,21

13:14 15:4

27:7 53:1

89:17 90:3

118:2

Cases 118:2

catch 18:15,17

19:2 52:3 53:1

53:2,15,16

56:1

catches 18:11

61:21

catching 51:14

category 59:18

60:24 78:4

116:3

caught 8:14

17:14,15 25:15

42:21,25 43:6

43:7,16,22

52:24 53:3

54:15 55:2,23

56:7 59:2,3,5

59:21 60:22

62:3,10,20,22

65:9

cause 23:1 35:16

45:23 58:8

63:24 72:8

95:16 104:18

108:21 114:23

119:10

caused 48:15

104:1,4

center 8:3 88:9

centers 18:4

certain 16:1

21:6 36:9

39:21 46:14

61:24 63:14

66:4,12 74:5,6

83:16 84:8

85:15,20 101:5

116:4

Certificate

119:22

certified 109:9

certify 63:14

119:5,14

chairman 87:12

chance 17:14

18:13 30:1

38:9 42:2 44:4

44:7 106:23

change 16:20,22

17:5,16 18:16

20:6,13 23:17

23:20,24 24:1

24:3,12,20

25:4,5,7,12,16

37:24 42:17,19

42:25 43:16,19

44:10 46:7

47:3 48:25

51:15,17,24

52:8,12 53:6

54:1,8,14,20

55:4,6,15,24

59:1 70:7

76:14,17 78:12

78:19,23 79:15

80:22 96:14,24

98:12 102:3

105:9,18,21,25

106:4,9,12,13

106:16,17,19

106:19 108:23

108:25

changed 46:2

changes 28:22

channels 88:17

charge 74:10

charges 73:13

74:15,16,18

Charles 4:23

91:11 102:20

104:12 107:18

Charlie 37:13

Charlotte 10:8,9

10:12,16 11:8

34:21 68:11

76:20

check 64:4 89:1

97:11

checked 18:22

106:10

checks 61:24

66:4 106:8

choices 24:11

circumstance

88:18

circumstances

55:25 73:17

78:24

city 7:11,12,13

10:1,11,16

12:7,10,16

13:11 30:19

31:19

clarify 65:22

68:13

class 28:22

34:22 41:18

classes 46:14

61:16

clean 18:10

cleaned 17:22

clear 30:25 43:8

61:4

cleared 61:6

clearly 25:22

111:20

clears 63:8

clerk 50:4,5

52:11

clerks 37:19

38:18

clock 61:9

close 75:12

closed 34:1

closely 29:2

COALITION

3:8

coast 13:3

code 16:13,24

19:13,23,24

20:2,3 21:21

21:22,24 22:13

23:14 27:24

29:16 30:11

31:3 32:2,4

34:25 35:5,9

35:13,14,15

36:2,10,25

37:22 38:6,11

38:15,17 40:8

46:1,24,25

47:23 49:15

50:13 51:8

65:3 68:15,17

69:21 75:18,25

76:12 95:7

coded 29:13

codes 29:12 30:5

35:4 36:1

39:21 45:24

49:10,13,14,18

53:13 65:5

75:14

collect 26:9

collected 61:12

collection 16:7

30:17,21,23

33:17,17 41:24

58:7,8,22

college 27:21,22

27:23,24 28:3

28:8 79:15

82:1 105:9,12

colleges 69:17

82:1

come 37:19

64:20 68:24

69:18 83:8,13

102:4

comes 7:4 16:5

24:7,8 40:24

56:10 63:24,25

coming 8:3

19:15 47:24

48:9 60:3 61:8

63:20 83:15

84:23 85:23

101:21

commercial 30:6

34:10 114:12

114:15,20

Committee4:15

14:6

committing 24:2

common 90:16

communicate

79:13 85:19

communication

87:8,9

communicatio...

84:11 91:20

112:9

companies 111:9

111:10,12

112:1 113:6,13

114:12

company 37:13

91:21 111:17

compare 104:7

104:11,14

complain 23:22

complaints 83:8

83:20 85:4,12

112:5

complete 24:19

completed 54:2

completely 6:2

101:16

composite 33:11

comprehend

101:11

computer 18:7

18:23,25 38:13

43:13 53:8

computers 18:5

47:2

concerned 28:2

concerning

83:12 119:9

CONCLUDED

116:16

conducted 78:3

114:8

conference 1:3

82:8 83:16,25

84:1,17,24

87:1

confident 41:8

confirm 91:13

confused 100:3

congressional

84:15

congressman's

83:10 84:13

connection 78:2

considers 74:7

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consistent 92:25

103:16

consisting 14:8

consumer 83:8

114:13

contact 58:13

83:17 116:9

container 39:16

86:13

continue 18:1

continuing 26:9

contract 49:20

49:23 69:7,9

69:11,12,15,16

73:4

contracted 73:3

contractor 69:13

controversy

119:9

conversation

36:15

conversations

13:16

convoluted

28:13

copy 91:24 93:4

109:22

corner 10:22

correct 15:6

19:6 22:7,15

22:24 26:18

59:16 64:18

65:13 76:24

91:14,19 92:17

96:23 99:18

102:12 106:23

113:15 117:7

corrected 38:14

correcting 94:2

CORRECTIO...

118:1

correlation

34:25

counsel 3:2,7,12

3:17,22 109:10

119:15,16

counter 11:23

counties 44:2

75:5 84:2,4

106:24 107:3

107:10,12

country 8:20

18:3 30:17

31:1 53:11

county 4:18,19

32:10,11,16,18

40:19 41:5

67:6,24 74:24

75:2 81:20

84:5,5,7,8

116:2,9 117:2

119:2

couple 10:9

22:25 23:21

24:16 30:7

49:8 52:4 77:1

98:9

courier 16:10

court 1:1 4:2

15:13 36:16,21

80:20

cover 7:1 80:8

91:16

covered 70:2,11

71:1 73:12

82:11

covers 9:1 71:20

71:22,24 72:7

72:7

create 92:4

creates 106:6

credit 23:25

113:10 114:3

cross 106:9

cross-reference

108:20

cross-referenc...

103:10

cross-referenc...

16:21 52:8

current 6:11

11:13 16:20

57:13 61:3,25

66:5,5

currently 7:18

custodian 65:2

customer 7:22

10:4,6,11

11:15 24:23

58:6,21 72:22

89:4,5 106:17

112:21 113:14

114:2

customers 11:23

25:9,14 110:18

D

D-e-c-h-a-m-b...

7:19

damage 104:2

110:21

data 21:1 24:8

24:22 28:19

30:4,9 31:9,11

31:22 32:16

34:13,18,24

40:1,2 46:10

46:21 48:15,18

48:22 49:1

52:15 53:9,14

54:5,10 57:15

57:19,23 62:2

65:23,25

106:13 110:21

111:12,16,25

114:17

database 52:8

77:2 106:14

108:20

date 40:3 85:16

85:25 86:2,3

95:4 118:3

dated 67:7 85:6

dater 85:24

dates 97:22

day 29:20 30:2

30:18,21,25

31:2 32:21

33:8,9,10 34:8

34:9 39:13

40:1 43:17

44:18 45:12,14

46:20 48:3,4,9

53:23 58:3

59:25 60:9

63:6,8,18

86:19,24 87:18

87:19 89:9

117:8 119:18

day's 21:7

day-to-day

10:15 11:14

days 25:1,3 29:8

29:9,14,15

30:20 33:3,13

41:10 53:18

58:18 64:12

93:21,22,23

98:9

DC 3:5,15

Deakins 2:9 3:18

5:13

deal 65:18 111:9

dealing 112:19

dealings 82:5,6

Dean 1:25 2:3

5:1,10 24:12

117:5,14 118:2

debit 113:10

114:4

deceased 45:10

60:6

DeChambeau

7:19

decided 76:13

decipher 21:3

58:10

decision 17:25

18:5 23:10

Declaration 4:23

91:11 102:20

102:23 104:12

104:15 107:18

declare 117:5

defendants 1:9

1:18,23 3:17

5:14 15:4 78:3

definitely 73:13

definition 103:2

103:3

definitive 101:6

degree 9:17

delay 17:21

65:14,20 66:1

delayed 48:14

48:16 61:19,20

64:8

deliver 11:23

12:4 18:18

25:21 26:5

28:3 29:6

31:23 35:15,25

36:24 37:5,23

38:6,8,10,21

38:23,25 48:6

49:15 50:18,25

51:11 52:17

57:25 60:3,7

60:14 64:11,23

69:1 74:2 76:7

96:11 101:2

105:15 107:24

107:24 110:25

deliverable 28:4

44:16 70:4

96:9 112:11

delivered 11:17

11:19 21:17

29:9,14,17

30:1 31:2,5,8

31:10 32:25

33:3,24,25

36:6,12 38:5

40:1 41:10

42:3,23 45:11

46:19 47:18

48:14,19 50:8

50:15 51:1

53:19 66:7

68:14 74:8

97:4,5 98:1

115:6

deliveries 40:5

60:14

delivering 25:24

26:2 27:22,23

30:4

delivers 21:12

21:14 36:7

73:19

delivery 11:16

16:9,24 21:8

26:25 28:4

29:3,5,19,22

29:23,25 33:5

39:6 45:15

46:16 48:4,9

49:16 52:17,23

53:23 57:25

58:2,13,18

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 34 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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63:10 70:24

83:12 97:25

denise@disco...

4:5

department 3:13

3:23 82:10

83:13

depend 56:18

dependent 28:8

depending 17:1

19:19 35:10

73:16 88:6

95:19,21 112:7

depends 26:15

Deponent 3:22

deposed 5:17

deposit 60:4,7

60:18

deposition 1:25

2:1 4:17,22

5:15 6:6 13:6

13:21 14:16

15:3 40:16

90:6 104:13

106:21 116:16

118:3

depositions 15:9

deputy 9:5

Desalles 9:18

describe 41:6

109:10

described 88:20

88:22 109:1

describing 34:14

DESCRIPTION

4:13

design 103:24

designated

15:16 60:18

61:5

designed 92:9

desperate 89:2

destinate 53:17

destinating

17:15 20:23

21:25 29:15

42:15 43:2

54:8

destination

17:13 19:24

22:1,8,17,22

42:16 43:3

52:19,20 54:3

destroyed

111:23 113:22

detail 20:20 78:8

detailed 11:7

determine 16:15

23:3 46:22

53:5 54:11

57:8,22 65:21

113:8

determined 20:1

42:18

determines

21:20

difference

101:23 103:13

106:3

differences

104:16 109:11

different 10:9,17

11:22 12:12

13:10 17:4

19:20 22:1

23:21 29:11

30:19 31:23,25

34:12,13,13

37:20 39:9

60:9 61:16

63:25 65:4

80:2 104:21

110:1,4 111:6

112:24 113:18

113:19

differently

20:14

dig 34:24 46:1

46:21 48:17

54:5 58:5

65:21,23,25

digging 54:11

digit 32:5 34:20

digits 22:12

dimensions

103:25 104:18

110:4

direct 6:16

68:17 69:2

91:21 102:19

110:4 111:2

direction 119:12

directly 12:19

12:24 60:2

68:18 69:19,21

75:11

director 90:8

100:5

DISCOVERY

4:2

discuss 72:14

discussed

111:16

Discussion

77:10 91:1

discussions

112:1 114:19

disparity 97:22

dispatch 63:8,17

64:5

dispatched 60:8

60:20 63:15

disposition 50:7

distributes 72:3

distribution 8:2

district 1:1,1

6:13,25 7:2,10

7:17,18,20,21

7:24 8:9,25 9:2

10:23 12:8,25

34:3,4,16

74:13,17,20,23

75:1 82:9,11

83:1,5,6 84:4

districts 7:1 8:24

Division 37:14

document 13:19

67:15,16,17

68:5 90:12

documents

13:13 69:23

doing 21:25

30:14 31:10

36:19 40:9

52:14 53:5

73:14 95:8

111:8

dollar 23:23

domestic 13:8

70:2 71:5,7,13

71:16 72:13,15

73:9

domestically

71:21

door 37:17

dormitories

27:22

dormitory 27:21

draw 53:10

drive 23:8,13

39:24 88:8

driven 89:1

drives 39:12

driving 11:20

drop 30:16

dropoff 16:10

dropped 16:7

30:22

dropping 30:19

drops 30:21 55:8

drugs 26:4

Duke 1:13 75:10

75:12

Durham 3:10

12:23 32:7

74:21

DVDs 110:22

E

E 3:1,1 119:3,3

earlier 43:11

61:2 65:23

78:22 106:7,21

111:19

easier 79:19

easily 76:23

east 10:25

ebbs 34:7

edit 40:1

educated 81:17

97:24

education 9:16

educational 9:15

effectiveness

46:3

efficiencies

11:20

efficiency 46:3

efficient 41:20

eight 8:24

Eighteen 93:23

either 12:6,7

16:11 20:14

24:11 25:16,17

28:5 42:16,18

42:25 47:13

48:8 51:10

62:21 69:13,19

75:9 103:6

106:16 113:17

114:1

elaborate 41:14

elaborating

56:11

elapse 42:24

election 82:6,8

82:17,18,19,20

84:5,11 104:25

Elections 3:17

4:14,18,19

14:5 40:20

41:5,5 43:24

48:5 67:6,25

71:11 81:21

82:7,11 83:3,9

83:21 84:8,10

84:17 85:22

87:2,2 89:7,19

90:8 91:25

96:6 99:4

100:5 101:14

108:12,14,25

109:16 115:14

116:2,10

electronic 44:6

electronically

113:21

eliminate 103:10

ELLIS 3:3

EMILY 3:9

Emmanuel

96:12

employed 73:22

119:15,16

employee 13:9

25:8 74:11,14

74:18

employees 6:17

21:10 50:20

64:21 65:1,7

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 35 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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125

73:22,24 76:1

employment

9:21,22

enables 41:20

encoding 18:4

encompass 7:20

74:20 75:1

encompasses

8:19 74:23

ended 87:7

endorsed 17:1,8

70:15,16 81:3

endorsement

17:5 44:20,22

ensuring 11:17

39:25

enter 23:25

entered 24:1,23

24:23

entering 40:5

entire 25:7

entities 72:19

entries 24:9

entrusted 27:25

envelope 86:13

equipment

16:23 19:8

21:13 24:8

80:4 110:23

error 38:11

especially 82:6

85:4,20

ESQ 3:3,8,9,19

3:23

essentially 89:9

establishes

71:16

estimate 43:9

et 1:4,8,10,13,17

1:22

ethics 65:4

evaluation 21:19

evening 53:22

60:4,18 87:20

event 26:7 83:17

114:3

everybody 79:3

exact 104:17

exactly 21:3

39:4 46:17

57:23 76:9

84:22 101:11

108:8 112:7

examination 4:9

4:10 5:6 95:9

102:17 108:2

119:11

examined 114:6

119:10

example 27:20

35:13 72:16

75:22 105:8

examples 105:8

excellent 30:1

excerpts 4:22

90:6

excuse 29:7

93:19 96:6

97:5

Executed 117:8

executive 10:14

90:8 100:5

exhibit 4:13,14

4:17,18,19,21

4:22,23 14:12

14:13,15,20,22

14:24 15:17

40:14 66:22

67:2,4,19,20

67:23,24 69:5

69:5 71:7 77:7

77:17,20,22,24

79:23 89:18

90:4,5,5,20

91:2,7 92:1,10

92:15 93:1,4,7

93:8 94:22

95:10,24

102:19 103:9

104:7,8,11,13

104:14,14,15

104:22,22,23

105:1 109:11

109:11,15,25

110:1 115:1,12

115:18,21,21

115:23

Exhibits 4:12,25

81:19

expect 20:19

29:4 66:3 71:4

expected 55:9

expedite 88:16

expeditious

64:22

experience 50:3

76:19 82:3

103:16 105:16

111:20

expert 103:24

115:13

expired 55:5,6

55:16,22 56:11

98:25

explain 17:18

20:19,24

explained 57:24

89:23

explanation

94:14

explanations

103:19

express 68:24

69:1

extent 26:13,15

external 32:3

66:10

externally 30:15

extract 111:12

F

F 119:3

face 74:4

facer 19:9

facilities 16:6

21:5 61:15

64:6

facility 30:8 35:2

39:15 61:3

68:18 69:4,13

69:15,20

facing 73:13

fact 35:4

faculty 72:4 74:2

75:24

failure 39:14

46:20

faint 19:13

fair 34:3 57:15

115:13

fairly 104:3

falls 64:25 72:9

false 69:8

family 24:13

105:22,23

far 24:22 28:2

29:2 34:24

45:16 73:9

95:23 108:22

Farr 3:19 4:9

5:7,12 13:23

14:2,9,11,14

14:20 49:4,7

67:2,18 77:7

77:11,18,23

90:23 91:5

94:21 102:13

102:15 107:1,5

107:11,14

108:1,3 116:12

116:14

farther 33:10

father 106:2

favor 95:8

Fawcett 2:14 4:3

119:4,21

Fayetteville 10:5

10:7 47:16,17

47:18

federal 74:9,15

feedback 46:14

110:18 114:14

felon 103:7

107:18

felons 103:10

107:24

female 9:10

fifteen 97:16,17

Fifteenth 3:4

figure 22:18,21

figured 47:2

file 16:21 52:8,9

filed 43:16 47:3

51:17 54:14

85:12

fill 23:20,20 24:3

24:5,11,12

51:24 59:1

76:14 78:12,19

78:23

filled 55:15

80:22 102:3

filling 25:16

final 21:3 30:13

39:16,17 52:14

53:17

finalization

75:15

finalize 18:8

20:25 23:13

28:4

finalized 76:10

finalizing 23:1

financial 41:19

financially

119:17

find 28:18 57:7

58:5,19 73:13

81:15

finds 60:14

fine 6:6,9 8:7

19:18 36:20

41:16 65:6

finish 36:17 68:2

80:17

first 5:2 9:10

10:18 18:23

19:2,7 20:16

21:17 22:12

29:21,22 34:22

41:18 53:19

91:17

first-class 11:25

15:21 16:3

29:1,8,10

31:24 33:4

41:22 64:25

65:19 66:7

70:11 111:22

fit 59:18

fits 103:25

five 29:21 107:8

flag 16:24

flagged 51:25

54:2,7

flats 61:17

flows 34:7

focus 11:20

61:22 91:21

focused 64:10

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 36 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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126

follow 51:21

70:1,23 71:17

74:2

following 73:8

86:24 87:15

follows 5:5

101:15 115:15

foregoing 117:7

forever 55:10

forget 43:4

95:19

forgive 107:14

Forks 2:10 3:19

4:3

form 24:4,20

25:16 42:18

43:16 46:7

54:1 59:1

76:14 78:13,24

79:15 80:23

94:17 98:12

102:3

Forsyth 4:18,19

67:6,24 81:20

Fort 35:12,18

36:3,22 37:21

38:20,22,24

49:9 50:4,5,11

50:16,19 51:8

51:10 72:17

forward 28:5

45:9 75:16,20

78:18 80:15

81:5 95:6

96:10,13,19

forwardable

28:6 45:17

47:14

forwarded

13:19 17:1

20:15 24:15

79:20 80:25

96:21 113:12

forwarding 25:2

25:6 48:25

55:3,21 70:11

98:25

found 52:13

79:18 80:6

88:15

four 13:2 30:21

four-hour 63:11

four-year 9:17

frame 11:3 29:5

53:7

fraud 24:2 26:4

front 15:2 18:6

29:22 38:12

95:20,21

full 9:16

full-service

30:10 113:20

further 107:25

108:2 119:14

future 85:14

G

G 3:14

games 32:8

gamut 11:25

gamuts 71:22

Gary 4:22 90:7

100:6

geared 48:17

general 4:14 9:5

9:6,7,10 14:4

82:20

generally 16:5

22:13 27:24

38:19 48:8,13

65:23 73:15

83:9 88:5,12

97:1

generate 25:4,11

generated 25:8,8

25:13 44:5,5

80:3 106:16,17

generates 80:4

getting 17:13

29:3,13 30:1

31:10 33:16

40:16 48:19

53:16 58:17

66:6 75:24

77:15 85:5

Gill 3:23 14:2

gill.beck@usd...

3:25,25

give 11:11 18:8

24:4 26:11,20

27:6,12,18

28:8,19 37:17

46:13 56:24

76:15 78:19

81:16 95:19

96:20 100:16

105:8

given 25:19 30:8

30:21 32:21,21

32:21 38:20

60:13 96:14,24

98:11 99:17

119:13

giving 26:16

27:3 30:12

37:5 56:20

go 5:19 14:2

16:2,15,16,25

17:6 20:10,11

20:15 21:1,24

22:18 32:15

39:2,22 47:13

47:17 48:21

50:6 51:13

54:24 56:13,15

58:14 59:20

62:16 63:13

67:18 68:22

70:5,14 74:17

75:21 76:8

77:8,12 86:6

87:10 88:16,17

88:25 89:3,16

90:24,25 102:5

goal 33:4,10

42:7

goes 16:14 19:8

19:23 22:22

65:2,3 68:17

68:20 75:11,13

going 8:3,5

16:15,16,16,24

17:6,7,9 18:1,1

18:2,15,17

19:11,22,24,25

20:5,8,10,10

20:12,17 23:9

23:14 25:21,24

26:2 27:12

28:22 29:4,13

30:24 31:13

32:2,4,5,6,6,16

33:19 34:1

35:18,21 38:17

41:24 42:2

43:7 44:8 45:1

46:23,24 47:14

47:17,21 50:19

51:4 52:9 55:7

58:3 59:14

60:10 62:16

63:18 67:5,7

67:15 70:17

71:18 74:15

77:18,25 81:7

85:7,17,21

86:7,16,17

90:19,20 97:2

105:23 110:22

111:22 113:20

good 5:8 17:5,14

17:16,23 18:10

18:10,11,13,16

20:12 31:10

38:9,10 39:13

42:19 44:4,10

47:14 49:4

54:20 56:16

66:13 76:22

78:21 79:2

84:11 110:4

111:21

goods 69:14

gosh 8:14

gotten 25:4

45:25 101:21

114:1

govern 49:23

69:24

government

74:9

Governor 1:7

graduating

78:22

great 10:2 28:25

31:6 36:15

44:7 88:25

greater 32:7

Greensboro

6:13,21,22,23

6:25 7:2,13 8:1

8:9,25 12:17

13:4 20:8,10

21:1,4 22:16

22:17 31:18,19

68:18 83:1,5

95:16

Greenville 7:6

ground 5:20

group 6:8 22:5

guaranteed

41:18

guard 8:15

guess 12:2 44:1

44:3 63:24

81:14,17 97:24

99:20 108:8

guidelines 70:1

72:10

Guilford 74:23

guy 8:9 9:7

guys 12:4 26:8

H

half 7:3 31:17

hand 45:16

61:18 64:8

77:5 80:12,12

90:5,19

handbook 13:12

handbooks

13:10

handed 35:23

77:24 91:6

handle 11:25

27:25 29:1

37:24 50:7

69:22,25 70:3

70:15 71:6

72:11 75:7

handled 10:15

64:21 72:20

73:15 74:12,19

handling 66:24

72:20 74:16

hands 33:22

39:3 74:8

85:16 95:25

98:2,6

handwriting

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 37 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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127

17:24 18:10

handwritten

44:3

happen 11:3

25:17 44:11

53:18,22 81:25

85:14

happened 58:6

68:7

happening

25:18

happens 48:11

57:23 86:19

hard 57:8

hard-headed

101:9

head 8:9 63:21

76:9 83:23

111:11

heading 64:25

headquarters

61:23

heard 18:21

55:14 82:13

106:22

held 10:8,17

14:6

help 36:21

helpful 9:3

50:10 70:20

77:8 78:1

hereinbefore

119:7

hereto 119:16

hey 23:2 26:12

44:8 46:18

48:16 55:12

58:14 70:8

high 9:16 108:5

high-growth

40:3

high-level 7:14

high-speed

110:22

higher 61:22,23

110:15

Highway 3:9

historically

39:11

history 9:21,22

116:6

hit 45:25

hits 58:9

hold 25:1

holds 25:1

Holly 40:4

home 36:15

105:10,13

homes 26:4

hopefully 23:20

86:17

hotel 72:7,9,10

72:10

hours 11:21

61:18

house 12:5 21:12

25:21,25 26:7

27:3,5

houses 110:20

housing 35:25

HR 12:1

human 23:11

hundred 30:7

62:9,14,17

74:19 107:6,10

hurts 34:7

I

I-95 10:25

IBM 30:15,16

66:11

ID 16:13 19:14

idea 11:11 24:19

62:5 83:2,7

97:21 102:11

ideal 103:25

ideally 85:17

103:24

identification

14:13,22 67:4

67:20 77:22

90:4 91:2

identified 4:13

46:6 47:5

image 16:12

18:6 19:10

22:23

imagine 62:6

impossible

20:20

impression 69:6

imprisonment

65:7

incident 65:18

65:19

include 71:23

includes 42:5,5

103:4

including 7:23

incoming 21:7

INDEX 4:7,12

indicate 108:10

indicated 99:9

106:21

indicating 57:16

77:15 105:2

indirect 6:17

indirectly 12:9

12:15

individual 24:11

27:23 50:23

56:2,6 90:7

105:23

individuals

50:14 116:1

informal 6:8

information

16:22 18:1,7

22:24 23:25

24:1,6 29:11

31:7 95:3,17

95:19,23 104:5

104:23 108:22

109:8 113:11

113:21

initiated 82:23

inputs 106:9,12

inquire 58:16

Inspection 73:1

73:16

inspections

72:25

instance 74:11

75:10

instances 65:11

65:12 105:17

intended 54:22

54:25 61:21

intentionally

64:24 65:8

interested 47:1

47:19 85:8

119:17

internal 29:11

32:1 71:18

investigation

58:19 72:25

112:9

isolated 44:8

47:11,12 63:20

64:1 70:17

88:4

issue 40:10 66:3

83:17 85:11

105:25 112:1

issued 15:4

issues 15:16

70:19 82:12

83:12,15 84:23

85:7,8 87:1

104:1 106:6

IV 3:13

J

Jason 7:19 8:5,8

JC 110:19

job 11:11 31:10

65:6

jobs 9:24 10:23

JOHN 3:13

john.russ@us...

3:16

Joint 4:14 14:5

JR 3:3

July 11:9,10

66:19

jump 88:8

June 91:12

97:17 99:9

103:14

junior 106:3,5,5

Justice 3:8,13,23

K

K 3:3

K-r-i-s-t-e-n

8:15

keep 25:24 26:2

47:4 55:10

84:20 88:23

keeping 40:4

key 22:24

keystrokes

22:25

kick 38:17

kind 13:2 18:21

28:13 46:7

72:9 103:16

111:3

kinds 12:13

110:21

KIRKLAND 3:3

knew 21:1 83:17

98:4,15 115:9

know 5:22,25

6:2,6 8:13 12:1

12:4 16:2 20:2

20:5 23:4,6

24:25 25:17,20

25:22 26:3,5,6

26:9,10 28:9

29:9,24,25

30:12,13 31:22

32:1,4,5,6,7,9

32:10,20 33:8

36:10,19 39:15

39:19 40:7,15

43:23 45:5,23

45:24 46:17,20

46:23 47:13

48:4,10,13

49:22,24 50:8

50:11 52:6,7

53:3,8 54:6,6,6

54:9,9 55:5,9,9

56:12,14,14,15

57:2,23 59:12

59:17 61:8

62:8,8,8,25

63:17,20 64:7

65:1 66:1,8

67:12 71:1,4,5

71:24 72:24

73:10 74:5,9

74:12 76:2,5,7

76:9,18 78:9

79:1,3 80:8,10

80:11 82:4,7

82:16 83:4,6

83:18 84:10

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 38 of 50

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90:11 96:7

97:25 98:7,8

101:8,13,17

102:10,20,23

103:3,8,8

104:1,4,20

106:3 107:9,22

108:24 109:2,4

109:25 110:2

110:19,24

112:21 113:6

113:10,11,17

113:25 114:1,3

115:25 116:5,8

knowing 51:18

62:13

knowledge

26:14,24 50:11

52:2 56:2,6

59:7 99:6

119:9

knowledgeable

55:9

knows 23:2,10

26:3 59:22

60:15 102:8

Kristen 8:15

L

label 76:23,25

79:16 80:1,5

80:24 95:2,11

95:13 96:8,16

96:25

labels 79:25

Labor 13:9

lack 110:11

Lancaster 10:19

large 50:17

112:5,7

larger 104:19

late 46:16 68:24

69:2

law 73:12 97:12

lawsuit 5:14

lawyers 5:13

leadership 82:9

League 1:10 3:7

learn 50:6

leave 24:24 26:8

77:19 80:9

89:16 106:19

leaves 80:21

leaving 25:24

left 17:25 25:6

26:12 45:8

74:10 105:10

leg 17:12

LEGAL 4:2

Legislative 4:14

14:5

Lejeune 35:19

51:11

length 28:25

31:6

lengths 89:1

let's 11:3 13:23

14:20 15:19,19

42:11 49:5

51:13,23 55:15

59:20 67:18

75:21 77:12,16

77:19 87:10

89:16 90:25

93:3,6 111:15

115:19

letter 12:5,7,7

16:3,5 18:14

18:22 21:9,9

21:11 26:17

27:4 28:15,17

29:21 32:24

36:24 39:16

42:12 48:23

52:1,22 53:19

54:21 55:16

56:1,19,24

57:17 59:9,14

60:12 62:3,22

62:23 63:1

64:11 98:20

100:11 115:6,6

letter's 21:17

54:2

letters 19:12

22:4 26:20

28:14 31:8

41:9,11 46:6

46:19 47:5

48:1,21,24

51:14 52:10

54:1,14 57:5

57:11,17,20

59:20 60:14

61:1,17 62:2

63:5 64:16,22

64:23 65:12

66:9,22 75:24

88:24 90:17

111:17 114:21

level 10:21 12:18

12:25 29:5

34:19

levels 11:22

lift 16:12

line 87:8 90:9,10

118:5

lines 110:5

list 5:19 67:9

68:2 71:8

92:20 103:9,11

103:22 104:3

105:22 108:9

111:21 112:3

112:13 114:8

listed 15:17 38:5

96:4,15,25

115:18,22

lists 111:6,13,24

litigation 78:3

little 9:14,25

10:10 15:9

20:19 21:9

41:14 44:23

45:4 53:13

63:11 65:22

76:19 100:2

113:18

live 12:10 23:7

25:23 26:7,16

28:25 39:20

55:12 59:22

60:15 62:4

98:4,15 102:8

112:6 115:9

lived 24:14 37:9

47:15 115:7

lives 26:14 28:9

35:22 51:16

58:12 62:22

living 15:10

25:19 27:2,3,5

36:3 37:8

56:13 71:22

105:6,13

107:19

LLOYD 1:7

local 19:18,19

19:20 21:20,21

21:24 30:24

34:8 41:6,18

74:13,17

locally 16:16

location 16:10

23:19 29:13

50:17 60:4

75:13 85:21

locations 8:4

11:15 18:3

30:19 60:19

85:20

long 5:19 31:7

31:22 32:16,24

36:8 42:22

45:19 46:11,14

47:5,5,7,25

48:22,24 60:25

63:4 64:15

65:23 116:8

longer 24:25

26:12 28:9,16

50:9 51:16,25

53:10 55:8,12

55:20 58:12,20

96:4,7 98:9

115:7

look 13:13 14:24

22:23 23:3

34:20,22 39:21

40:9,10 66:2

71:8 77:19

89:17 90:20

109:19

looked 7:2 26:23

40:17 92:13,25

95:5 110:3

112:16 113:2

114:7,20

looking 45:24

48:18,20 52:7

53:8 110:2

112:20 113:13

113:17 115:1

looks 19:1 58:10

104:19

lookup 80:5

losing 65:5

lot 11:19,20 12:1

12:16 19:12

23:7,22 25:9

26:3 27:9 31:9

34:19 35:7,24

41:21 43:10,11

44:2 50:16

51:3 54:10

58:5 61:22,22

61:23 70:19

75:10,11 79:18

80:6 82:4

105:24 106:1

110:18 114:17

LOUIS 1:13

low 104:3 111:4

lower 10:21

12:25

M

M 1:13 2:14 4:3

119:4,21

M41 13:11

machine 19:9,16

19:21 43:15

52:23,25

machinery

16:11,19 52:23

machines 21:22

mad 80:21

mail 7:24 8:3

11:17,19,25

12:4 13:8

15:21,25 16:3

16:3,5,11,12

16:14,19,20,25

17:1,12 18:5

18:14,14,15,19

19:10,11,14,15

19:17,19 20:2

20:2,10,12,14

21:1,6,7,9,9,11

21:25 22:13

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 39 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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24:7 25:1,20

25:22,25 26:2

26:9,12,16

27:3,6,12,18

28:1,8,22 29:1

29:4,8,9,11,12

29:19,21 30:4

30:7,8,9,11,16

30:16,23 31:2

31:4,10,24

32:15,20 33:5

33:18,23 34:1

34:10 35:16,18

35:21,25 36:24

37:4,11,17,18

38:5,18 39:16

39:17,25 40:3

40:6,18 41:18

41:22 43:8,11

43:20,21 44:11

44:13,14,15,16

44:19,24 45:10

45:15,17,17,20

45:23,25 46:2

46:3,14,15

47:11,14,14,16

48:13,14 50:4

50:5,7,9,15

51:4,12 52:9

52:16,16,18,22

53:1,12,16

55:10,21 56:9

57:24 58:1,1,7

58:14,15,16,16

58:20 60:1,1,5

60:6,7,10,20

60:20 61:4,16

61:16,19,20,25

62:14,16 63:8

63:15,18,20,25

64:1,5,8,25

65:19,24 66:6

66:7,12,15,24

68:14,16,20,24

69:1,11,20,22

69:25 70:3,4,4

70:10,24 71:5

71:6,8,13,16

71:21,23,23,25

72:3,8,11,13

72:20,20 73:19

74:2,7,12,14

75:7,10,13,15

75:16,20,22,25

77:14 78:18

79:2 80:24

83:12 85:21,24

86:5,11 88:3,5

88:5,17,19

89:15,20 91:21

95:3 98:8 99:2

99:22 100:2

101:2,3,6,13

103:23 104:9

104:20,25

105:11,14

106:4,5,8

107:24 108:15

113:15,21

114:18

mailbox 56:19

59:10

mailed 16:6

32:17 42:23

43:5,23 44:3

44:17 48:23

53:21 79:17

90:17 92:19

93:14 96:3

99:8 103:14

107:20 108:11

109:22 112:13

113:23,25

114:8 115:18

115:22

mailer 20:3

30:10 112:7,10

mailers 30:6,6

104:5 108:21

112:5

mailing 4:21

42:23 51:6

76:25 78:3,7

80:15 92:5,10

93:18 94:7,12

99:14,23

102:22,25

103:22,25

104:3,18

107:17 108:9

108:11 110:12

110:20 111:1,6

111:13,21,23

111:23,24

112:8,10,22,23

113:19,20

mailings 41:2,6

101:18 104:16

105:3 112:2,6

113:5,23

114:12,15,21

115:25

mailroom 37:19

76:8

mailrooms 82:5

mails 81:6

maintain 50:20

51:11

maintaining

11:21

maintenance

67:9 68:2 71:9

major 75:4

majority 99:12

making 60:14

85:4,15,20

102:22

man's 89:1

manage 12:15

managed 10:6

management

10:3

manager 6:12

6:18 7:17,18

7:21 10:6,9,11

10:21 13:1

83:1

managers 10:12

10:13 13:2

manual 13:8,9,9

24:3 38:18

70:3 71:6,8,13

71:16 72:13,16

73:9

manuals 13:7

map 7:2

Maren 2:14 4:3

119:4,21

mark 13:24 14:9

14:11,20 67:18

90:20

marked 14:13

14:22 67:4,20

77:17,22 90:4

91:2,7 104:13

104:15 106:4

marketing 82:9

83:1,7 91:20

markings

104:23

massive 21:23

master 20:17

math 97:11

matter 15:10

matters 119:9

Matthews 10:20

McCRORY 1:7

118:2

mean 6:23,24

17:3 33:14

36:19 39:11

47:9 54:4

70:24 78:17

79:5 89:3 90:1

96:10 99:20

108:7,17

110:17

means 24:13

26:10 55:2,23

81:7 89:4,23

96:11

meant 41:23

measure 29:8,10

66:3,9

measured 11:21

41:22

mechanism

63:13

mechanisms

15:20

meet 84:12

meeting 4:18,20

71:12 84:14

meetings 84:15

Megan 9:12,13

members 3:17

71:12

mentioned 27:4

mentioning

34:11

Merileaf 23:8,8

23:10,12,13,15

met 5:11

meter 71:24

methodology

102:21,24

108:6,17

metro 8:17

91:17 96:6,21

102:6,21,23

mid-Carolinas

9:1 10:23

mid-October

82:22

MIDDLE 1:1

miles 89:2

military 35:16

35:16,20,22,23

35:24 37:5,18

37:25 38:8,20

39:3 49:12,17

49:21,24 50:1

50:13,13 51:1

51:12 72:7,17

73:5

millions 53:11

53:12,12,12

mind 56:11

minutes 4:18,20

67:6,24 68:6

71:11 84:20

misheard 107:2

missed 38:2

46:24

missing 23:4

Mocksville

104:10

model 109:22

monitor 45:14

45:14,16,22

61:3

month 32:21

93:18 94:6

months 11:9

Morganton 7:5

morning 5:8

44:14 61:10

64:2

Mount 42:2

63:25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 40 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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mountains 13:4

move 23:19

24:19 25:15

27:13 66:15

76:13 105:18

105:23

moved 10:2,3,5

10:8 25:6,23

27:8 45:8

47:16 51:16,19

51:23 56:3,6

58:21 59:13

76:25 102:3,5

103:6 113:9

moving 26:2

multiple 27:10

35:3,4

N

N 3:1

N.W 3:4,14

NAACP 1:3 3:2

118:2

name 5:9,11

7:18 8:8 9:11

24:10,13 26:5

80:9,9 101:3

106:1 118:2,2

named 90:7

119:7

names 27:10

111:11

NASH 2:9 3:18

nationwide

54:18

NC 3:10,20,24

4:4,14

near 7:25 8:1

63:12 104:5

necessarily

49:22 69:9

78:23 107:22

necessary 22:25

need 6:9 15:11

16:4 20:4

55:23 58:14

68:1 70:20

74:1 95:18

needed 17:22

needs 16:12 18:8

20:14 53:10

neither 119:14

Netflix 110:20

110:21

network 8:2

never 25:12

28:22 32:4,7

54:22 56:12

57:2 99:2

113:2 114:2,7

new 17:7,8,9

40:5,20 44:21

45:10 47:15

57:16,19 59:13

66:12,17 70:8

70:9,13,14

76:23 78:14

79:21 80:13,25

81:2,10,16

nice 80:20

night 29:18 30:9

43:9,22 46:18

58:2

nights 9:17 43:9

43:10

nighttime 21:6

nine 11:8

nixie 95:3

nods 59:8 92:16

non-felons

107:24

nondelivery

103:17

normal 88:17

89:3

normally 18:18

21:5 34:22

38:10 39:2,11

44:13,18 58:10

96:17 112:19

114:23

North 1:1,3,8,10

1:16,22 2:11

3:17 6:25 7:1,3

7:6 9:1 10:2,20

10:22 11:2

14:4,7 20:8

30:17 31:17

33:2,8,24

68:11 69:18

76:19 106:23

117:1,6,9

119:1,5,22

northern 31:16

Notary 5:3

119:4,22

notice 4:17 5:14

15:3 19:12

notify 55:12

70:7 78:14

nowadays 27:9

46:4 57:2

number 23:4

53:25 57:11

87:13 93:3,7

95:20 102:19

111:17 112:2

115:19

numbers 101:23

nutshell 12:2

O

o'clock 43:8

oath 119:11

Objection 94:17

observe 81:11

occasionally

65:7 68:23

occur 27:12

occurred 94:20

occurs 105:20

October 67:25

87:3

odd 58:10

101:24 102:1

111:1

offended 36:20

office 6:12,19,20

10:21 13:1

16:8 24:5,18

34:19 35:3,11

35:19 39:20

40:4,8 49:24

50:14,23 60:17

61:23 63:7,10

63:12 68:20,23

69:7,11,12

83:10,11 84:13

84:13 85:23

86:15,20,22

98:20

offices 7:12

10:24 11:16

12:16,18 31:23

34:13,18 35:7

39:9 63:22

64:1,5 73:3

84:6,7 107:11

official 1:7

109:23

officially 104:25

Ogletree 2:9

3:18 5:12

oh 8:14 38:13

58:6,19 93:25

113:10

OIG 73:1,16

okay 5:19 6:7,10

6:14,18 7:8 8:5

8:22 9:3,13,20

11:6,11 12:3,8

12:20,22 13:5

13:23 14:9,20

15:19,22 17:11

18:20 20:16

22:1,11,20

23:3,16 24:16

24:25 26:13,19

27:20 29:16

31:6,15,21

32:15,23 33:13

33:20 34:3

35:6,12 36:2

36:18 37:8,12

37:15 38:3

39:5,6,18

40:13 41:1,13

42:4,11,22

43:5 44:7 45:3

45:13,24 46:10

47:1,25 49:4,8

49:20 50:10

51:9,13,21,23

52:10,21 53:18

53:21,24 54:13

54:24 55:25

58:24 60:12

61:7 62:12,25

63:4 65:10

66:17,25 67:13

67:23 68:5,6

68:13,21 69:5

70:19,21 71:7

72:2,12 73:18

75:1 76:11,21

77:4,7 78:16

78:21 80:14

81:18,25 82:23

83:24 84:5,20

84:23 85:2

86:1,19,25

87:5,10,15,21

88:7 89:8,16

89:22 90:15,19

91:9,11,15,23

92:3,12,19

93:9,25 94:1

94:14,22 95:15

95:24 96:8,14

96:18 97:2,15

98:3,23 99:1,3

99:8 100:20,25

101:17,25

102:13 107:25

108:1,10,17,24

109:7,10,21

110:9 111:5,25

112:12 113:5

114:16,19

115:25 116:5

116:12,13

old 45:23 55:7

111:24

once 32:25 47:5

47:25 61:11

68:2

one's 106:2,2

ones 47:1,19

48:6 63:10

99:25 101:20

online 23:22,24

24:9 63:13

106:19

onus 55:11

oOo- 4:6,11

open 82:10

84:11

opening 87:8

operation 19:22

operations 6:12

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 41 of 50

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131

6:19,20 10:11

10:15,21 11:14

13:1,8 19:20

72:17

order 21:13 25:2

55:21 83:14

98:25

orientation 65:3

original 19:10

77:19 93:18

95:10,25 115:3

originating

52:25

Otis 3:24

ought 100:11

Outer 7:6 10:25

outgoing 17:14

20:22 21:6,18

22:2,3,4,14

29:13 42:13,16

42:25 43:7,8

43:11,13,14

44:8 46:6 47:2

51:15 52:5

53:2,5,15

87:19 89:15

106:8,10,14

outside 35:8

111:17 112:18

overnight 41:17

41:18,22

oversaw 10:12

10:22,24

oversee 7:12

11:14 13:2

oversees 7:22

12:16 83:7

Oversight 4:15

14:5

P

P 3:1,1,23

P.C 2:9 3:18

P.M 2:5 116:16

P.O 50:17,19,22

51:2,3,5,5,10

63:11 75:19,20

76:6

package 11:24

page 4:8 67:8

68:1 90:9,10

90:15 91:13,16

91:16,17 93:9

118:5

pages 14:8

paid 31:1

paper 110:8

paragraph 92:7

97:3 99:9

109:18

parents' 105:10

105:13

PARS 44:15

64:1

part 28:21 40:23

55:11 63:15

66:11 69:10

70:2 78:2

115:22

participated

84:2

particular 51:24

87:1 103:11

107:19 112:13

parties 119:16

parts 33:8

party 111:17

Patrick 1:7

13:18,21

pay 23:23,23

30:15 50:21

64:15

peers 12:13

penalties 117:6

Penney's 110:19

Pennsylvania

9:19 10:2

people 6:14 12:8

23:22 24:19

25:15 26:11,16

26:20 27:3,5,8

27:12,16 30:16

36:22 37:8,9

37:18 39:22

40:20 51:1

55:12 56:8

57:2,4,16

58:25 59:9,17

60:15 96:3

98:8 99:3

101:6,18 102:2

102:7 105:17

106:1 108:11

108:22 110:10

110:14 115:17

115:17,21

116:8

percent 18:15

21:11,12 33:4

33:11 34:6

41:9,23 42:2,8

54:6,7,13,18

54:21,24 55:2

59:1,2,5 62:7,8

62:9,9,14,17

62:20,21,25

64:14 74:19

percentage 25:7

26:24 30:3

52:24

perfectly 36:15

performance

111:3

performing 35:1

39:22 40:11

perjury 117:6

permanently

10:18

person 17:25

20:6 22:22

25:6 27:8 28:1

28:9,15 32:17

37:6 42:23

43:17 48:21

50:8 51:16,19

51:25 53:6

54:21 55:11

56:16,18,23,23

58:12,20 59:13

59:22 62:22

72:8 81:6

86:20 98:7,11

98:15 99:22

100:1 105:21

113:9 114:22

115:9 119:6

personal 56:2,5

59:7

personnel 50:13

50:24

phone 13:16

82:23 83:2

phones 79:13

photocopy 4:21

104:18 110:3,5

pick 33:21 48:7

48:8 52:14

75:9,11 76:8

86:23

picked 30:23

33:19 69:19

picking 16:8

piece 11:25

16:13,14,19,19

16:20,23,24

17:1 18:5,13

18:18 19:8,10

19:11,14 20:2

21:2,13 24:8

29:9,16 30:9

30:11 31:4

32:20 39:25

43:20,21 44:11

44:19 45:25

52:16 53:16

55:21 56:9

57:25 58:1

66:7 69:1

70:10 77:14

80:24 86:5

95:5 103:24

104:9,20 111:2

113:22 114:18

pieces 20:3 30:8

53:12 58:15,20

68:23

pink 19:13

place 23:8,10,12

23:15 34:1

59:24 76:16

78:18 82:17

placed 81:10

places 37:9

Plaintiff 1:20

Plaintiffs 1:5,11

3:2,7,12

Plaintiffs-Inte...

1:14

plan 17:14,15

46:25

plant 7:25 8:1

21:5 22:17

29:18 40:10,11

41:25 46:15

60:8 63:19,19

64:2 73:19

plants 7:23,23

45:15

play 32:8

please 5:8,21

14:21 36:16

plus 46:15

PO603 13:11

point 16:18 20:4

29:25 49:5

52:17 99:5

policies 73:8

position 6:11,15

7:15 10:5,14

10:15 11:1,10

11:13 66:18

68:8

positions 10:9

10:18 50:12

82:4

positive 113:14

possibilities

100:25

possibility

100:23

possible 55:17

65:6 100:20

103:19 105:5

possibly 16:1,9

23:5 38:12

48:17 53:2

54:5 101:2

110:3 112:8

post 6:12,19,20

7:12 10:21,24

11:15 13:1,8

16:8 24:5,18

31:23 34:13,18

34:19 35:3,7

35:10,19 39:9

40:4,8 49:24

50:14,23 60:17

63:7,10,22

64:4 68:20,23

69:6,11,12

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 42 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

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73:3 84:6,7

86:15,20,22

98:20 107:11

postage 15:21

28:21,21 70:10

70:12 105:1

postal 2:2 5:25

6:13 8:21 9:22

10:1 20:11

21:18 24:24

26:13,14 28:2

28:7,11,24

32:25 35:24

36:7,24 37:4

37:18,22 38:6

38:7,23 39:7

41:10 42:24

43:17 44:15

46:11 47:3

48:10 49:11

50:2,12,20,21

50:25 51:14,18

52:11 53:19,25

56:20 57:3,4

57:10,12,21

59:7,12,14,21

59:23 60:23,25

62:2 64:21

65:1,11,16

66:20,24 69:24

70:7,25 71:18

72:16,19 73:1

73:15,20,24

74:3,7,18

75:23 76:15

79:25 83:21

85:9,13 87:16

88:7,19,23

89:8,13 94:24

96:15 98:12,21

99:17 100:16

100:21 102:7

103:16 105:12

105:16 107:20

109:9 113:22

115:5,8,9

postcard 4:21

103:25

posted 30:22

33:18

postmark 86:3,5

86:8,16,17

postmarked

86:7

postmarking

85:9

postmaster 7:14

9:5,6,7,10

10:14,14,18,19

11:1,8 12:12

12:17 68:11

postmasters

12:24,25

potentially

104:19,21

112:10

practice 83:5

preparation

14:16

prepare 88:5

prepared 13:21

71:24

present 83:25

91:4

president 8:12

8:16 91:15,17

presidents 8:23

press 74:17

pretty 26:23

36:8 41:8

76:22

previous 54:19

80:7 95:6

105:19

previously 58:2

93:1 95:5

119:7

price 70:11

print 76:23,24

77:3 80:5

printers 76:24

prior 57:6,12,17

57:20 59:21

77:15 82:8

101:17 113:2

priority 11:24

private 113:6

proactive 83:14

85:3,19

probably 9:20

21:10 27:11

30:20 62:5

81:14 82:21

84:21

problem 6:9

27:20 39:19

66:20 81:21

problems 66:14

105:25

procedures 6:1

15:20

proceedings

4:15 14:6

process 7:24

18:23,25 19:1

19:7 20:13

40:19 43:7,14

45:18 46:2,3

47:10 53:2

54:3 61:10

63:9,16 66:1

79:19 88:19,22

89:20 100:22

101:14 115:14

processed 22:13

41:25 43:12

45:15 47:8,12

47:17,23 61:21

66:6 77:14

87:23 94:24

95:4,6,16,23

processes 8:3

15:20 16:15

18:22 19:2

20:21 42:21

processing 7:23

16:6 21:5

22:17 29:19

30:8 35:1

39:15 42:16

52:5,6,19,20

54:15 60:8,21

61:3,9,13,15

64:6 68:18

69:4,20 73:19

86:18 106:15

106:15

product 29:1

Productions

91:18 96:6,22

102:6,22

Productions'

102:24

products 69:14

Professional 5:3

promoted 11:1

promotion 11:9

promotions 12:1

proof 101:6

proper 23:1 88:7

88:11

properly 40:6

53:5 66:24

85:6

protocols 115:5

provide 109:8

110:20

provided 5:14

13:18

Public 5:3 119:4

119:22

pull 60:6 77:7

pulled 47:2

78:10

punishment

65:9

purpose 44:19

54:12

pursuant 78:7

put 11:3 13:23

25:12 28:20

38:4 41:23

43:17 44:23

55:24 59:13

70:6,9 79:16

79:20,20,21

80:2,6,24

81:12,16 84:3

86:5,22 98:20

105:9,17,21

108:22 116:2

puts 60:5 86:9

86:15,20

putting 21:13

33:17 56:19

59:9 80:10

81:2

Q

quarter 54:19

quarterly 73:4

84:12

quarters 35:22

question 5:22

6:3 21:15

28:12 36:17

38:2 39:1

40:14 47:4

51:21 53:24

65:10,10 80:17

94:18 108:6

questions 24:16

28:20 31:13

49:9 66:25

68:3 70:20,22

83:18 102:13

107:25 108:1

109:12

quoted 71:13

quoting 71:12

R

R 3:1 119:3

raised 70:19

82:15

Raleigh 2:11

3:20 4:4 5:12

7:8,10,11,13

7:25 12:10,12

12:16 13:3

14:7 21:22

29:19 30:6,20

30:20 31:17

32:13 35:8

41:25 63:23

ramifications

73:7

ran 46:15,18

Randall 82:24

82:25

Randall's 83:2

range 23:12

63:23

rate 18:14 28:14

34:6 39:12

103:17 104:2,5

110:10,15,22

112:20

rates 112:6

read 17:23 23:6

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 43 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

133

40:14,15,23

66:22 67:11,14

67:23 68:1

81:18 90:9,10

90:24 91:9

100:4 103:5

115:12 118:5

reading 68:3

69:5 89:18

reads 19:23

118:5

ready 13:6 40:16

90:13

real 34:8 35:17

64:10 84:8

really 18:13

19:13 23:8

42:20 45:21

46:1,1 47:7

54:12 63:6

66:2 80:11

108:19 113:2

reason 16:4

23:23 25:20

45:7 53:3

55:20,21 65:25

65:25 78:10

88:13 107:13

reasons 23:5

41:19,19 42:11

45:9 60:10

99:15 100:14

100:17

recall 84:23,25

87:4 88:18

109:14

recalled 89:18

receipt 39:7

receive 29:21

48:23 72:8

100:2 101:3

received 48:1

57:5 59:9

62:23 64:17

65:13 75:22

89:10 91:24

99:2 101:18

receiver 66:12

66:15 89:6

receivers 31:1

receiving 41:11

56:9 69:10

71:21,23,25

recess 49:6 91:3

102:16

recipient 16:20

27:25 39:7

48:22 56:24

64:11,16 65:13

98:20 99:16

100:16

recognize 78:20

recollection 84:3

record 5:9 14:1

77:9,10,12,16

84:21 90:24,25

91:1 119:12

recording 63:13

redirect 17:16

20:11,11 44:15

45:17 53:1

55:7,7 60:23

62:10

redirected 17:9

54:22 55:1

62:15,16 89:2

redirecting

55:10

redirection

79:25

reduced 119:11

refer 16:3,4

81:19 95:18

reference 106:9

referencing

113:6

referred 102:22

107:17

referring 71:14

114:11

refers 71:7

105:4

reflection 111:2

regard 102:24

103:2,13

104:22 105:3

106:7 107:17

108:5

regarding 83:18

89:6

regards 17:2

48:4 70:3

112:5

registered 5:3

41:3 99:4

registrants

40:21

registration 78:4

regularly 104:6

regulations 13:8

49:23 50:2

71:2

relate 68:6

related 118:2

119:15

Relations 13:9

relationship

69:24

relying 59:6

remember51:7

83:24 84:16

86:25 100:11

109:12

remote 18:4

19:1

remove 101:15

removed 78:5

89:22 90:2,17

92:20 100:10

101:4,19 103:2

103:3 108:15

116:3

rent 50:21 51:5

renting 75:19

repeat 51:22

rephrase 5:23

110:12

report 7:13 8:11

9:4 12:24,25

31:3 46:18

48:14 54:9

61:17 63:9

64:7 112:12

reported 4:1

61:15 81:21

83:15 88:15

110:10,15,15

reporter 5:3

36:16,21 67:3

77:21 80:20

90:22

reporter's 15:13

REPORTERS

4:2

reporting 61:14

64:6

reports 6:16 9:5

12:12,18 13:1

31:4,25 34:20

46:13,15 58:4

97:8 112:4,16

representative

2:2 83:11

84:12

representing

5:13

represents

101:12

request 13:20

86:6

requested 17:8

44:20 70:17

81:4 92:22

96:1,13

requests 81:7

require 64:7

80:24

required 28:3,5

63:17 70:9

72:11 79:21

requirement

66:11

requirements

69:10

requires 24:5

73:2

RESERVED

116:15

reside 56:16

96:4,7

residence 62:23

76:12 92:1

105:11,19

115:15

resident 57:6,12

57:13,17,20

59:13,21 60:6

residential

49:16

residents 57:16

57:20 63:2

resides 28:16

51:25

residing 26:11

27:8

resolved 52:15

53:7

resources 41:21

108:25

response 112:5

112:20,22

113:14,14

114:13

responsibilities

11:12 12:1

responsibility

42:20

responsible

11:12,16 12:20

31:16,21 32:11

32:23 42:4

49:11,12,17

75:15,23

rest 9:1,21 67:14

result 27:2

return 15:21

17:8 28:5,21

44:20 57:4,17

57:21 59:6

64:21 66:9

70:13,16 81:3

81:7,15 87:23

88:9,19 92:22

96:1,9,13

100:22 110:10

110:11

return-to-sen...

88:3,5

returned 15:21

28:14 31:12,12

42:12,13 45:8

45:20,22 56:25

57:12 59:15

61:1 67:9 78:6

78:7 81:12

82:2 86:10

87:13,17,22

88:1,24 89:9

89:12 90:17

93:11,14 94:3

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 44 of 50

DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015

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94:12,15,16,23

96:5 97:8,13

97:17,23 98:2

98:3,11,14,19

98:24 99:10,12

99:16,24 100:1

100:11,15,18

100:20,23

101:1 102:11

103:15,21

105:5,11

107:20 110:11

110:16 111:18

111:18 112:3,3

112:14,25

114:21 115:8

returning 44:21

65:14 66:21

81:22

review 13:20

reviewed 13:7

14:16

reviews 39:23

67:17 68:5

90:12

rid 58:22

Riggs 3:8 91:4

right 5:16 7:9

9:7 14:11

15:15 18:12,24

19:3,4 20:23

21:20 22:10,19

23:2,16 28:10

28:12 32:14

34:14 37:2,11

39:6 40:24

41:1,1 43:24

45:7,13 48:20

51:13,19,20

52:5,6 56:4,21

57:1 59:4

62:19 64:11

66:17,18 68:8

68:9 72:5

73:18 77:8

79:12 80:1,7

80:10 81:18,24

82:15 86:13,21

86:24,25 87:10

88:25 89:4,11

89:14,16 90:1

93:3,6,7,23

94:9 96:8 97:2

97:9 98:6,10

99:1 100:8

102:2,7 110:6

110:13 111:6

111:15 113:1

113:13,16,16

road 2:10 3:19

4:3 52:4

Roberts 1:25 2:3

5:1,10,11 6:10

13:5,19 14:19

14:23 15:8

20:16 24:12,14

36:14 46:5

49:8 64:9 67:5

71:3 77:24

90:6 91:6

116:14 117:5

117:14 118:2

Rocky 42:1

63:24

roll 37:17 100:7

rolls 78:4 89:25

90:2,2 101:5

RONALD 3:3

ronald.anguas...

3:6

room 3:14,24

15:10 82:16

91:4

roughly 54:6

62:7

round 85:6,16

85:24,24 86:2

86:3

route 21:14

29:24 32:2

60:3

RPR 2:14 4:3

119:4,21

rule 15:9

rules 5:20,21

71:2

run 16:11 19:22

21:6 24:8

41:23 44:18

60:21,22 61:11

62:6,10 105:24

running 16:18

16:22 21:7

44:14 64:3

rural 12:7 13:12

42:5,9

RUSS 3:13

102:14

S

S 3:1

S-e-a-v-e-r 8:16

safe 43:9 115:16

Salak 96:12

sale 112:21

sales 86:7

sample 109:15

Saturday 33:25

34:2 48:6

saving 11:20

saw 111:22

saying 31:7 39:8

43:19 44:8

54:13 58:25

62:1 79:14

87:6 98:7 99:6

99:21,25 100:1

101:21

says 23:12 25:5

90:16 91:15,20

91:23 92:19

93:13 95:25

scan 31:2

school 9:16 28:1

70:5 97:12

schools 76:7

scores 34:10

screen 18:6 19:1

53:8

scrutinized 29:2

se 69:16

Seaver 8:15,15

SEAWELL 3:9

second 13:24

18:25 31:14

37:13 46:6

53:23 67:8

77:9 89:17

93:9 111:15

section 35:10

50:17 51:8

67:9 71:5 72:6

72:13

sector 113:6

see 7:21 12:11

15:22 23:7

25:18,22 26:1

27:11 29:15

34:24 39:23

40:13 58:8

78:5 81:20

82:12 83:14

87:11 90:15

91:15,21,23

92:1,3,20

93:11,14 94:12

96:1 97:6

103:23 108:20

109:23 110:4

110:23 111:3

111:19,20

114:9 115:19

115:23

seeing 23:11

seen 15:1 81:25

89:24 91:7

103:15 111:16

111:25

segregated 46:8

48:1

selected 108:14

sell 111:13

sells 69:14

senator's 83:10

84:13

send 17:7 20:12

22:16 40:25

44:9 68:25

89:14

sender 15:22

16:25 17:5,10

20:15 28:15,23

44:22,22 45:12

45:20,22 47:6

47:8,24 48:2

49:1 55:17,18

55:20 56:14,25

59:6,15 60:11

61:1 62:15,17

63:5,7 65:14

70:18 81:1,5,8

81:11,15 82:2

87:24 89:5

96:9,20 98:11

sender's 88:4

sending 20:9

71:25 81:4

sends 91:25

senior 6:12,18

106:2,5,5

sense 79:6,7

90:16

sent 13:22 17:10

26:4 28:17

55:16,17,19

81:1,8,23

96:22 100:10

111:18 112:2

115:7 116:1

separate 20:13

36:1

September 67:7

68:10

sequence 52:17

57:25

sequencing

29:25

serious 73:13

serve 54:12

85:22

serves 84:3,4

service 2:2 5:25

6:13 7:22 8:21

9:23 10:1,4,6

10:11 11:15,22

11:22 16:10

17:8 21:18

24:24 26:14

28:2,7,11,24

28:25 29:7,10

30:4 32:25

33:3,7,12,13

34:22 35:24

36:7,24 37:5

37:22 38:6,7

38:23 39:7,13

39:14,20,24

41:10 42:24

43:18 44:20

46:11 47:4

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 45 of 50

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48:7,10 49:11

50:12,20,21,25

51:14,18 53:20

53:25 57:3,5

57:10,13,21

59:23 60:25

62:2 64:21

65:1,11,16

66:21,24 69:24

70:7,16,25

71:18 72:19,22

73:1,16,24

74:7 81:3,7

83:22 85:9,13

86:8 88:8,19

88:23 89:13

92:22 94:24

96:1,13,15

98:12,21 99:17

100:17,21

102:7 105:12

105:16 107:21

109:9 110:24

113:22 115:5,8

115:9

Service's 26:14

serviced 63:22

services 113:8

sessions 49:25

50:1

set 40:9 73:9

seven 8:20,23

90:22,23

115:20

severe 65:9

shoot 42:7

shop 73:20

75:23 76:15

shops 89:8

show 45:1 84:14

showing 27:15

31:7 46:11

57:19 112:22

shown 79:23

side 7:22 35:16

35:23 42:1

49:24 51:12

52:25 72:22

sides 35:19

sign 24:6 66:12

SIGNATURE

116:15

signed 91:12

119:18

signs 26:1

similar 35:17

64:15 79:22

112:16 114:7

sir 5:8 6:16 8:10

12:21 14:18

15:23 46:9

63:3 64:13

67:22 71:15

73:25 74:22

75:6 87:14

89:21 91:8

93:12 94:2,5

sit 98:8

sitting 18:7

38:12

situations 27:1,2

28:7 64:20

six 2:10 3:19 4:3

6:16

size 35:10

104:21 110:1

skip 9:21

slower 53:13

small 26:23

52:24

smaller 25:9,10

25:13 76:7

smart 57:24

SMOAK 2:9

3:18

SOCIAL 3:8

soldier 35:21

38:4

soldiers 36:3

50:24 51:4

somebody 37:21

55:15 86:9

100:21 113:15

115:6

somebody's

51:23

somewhat 19:17

son 106:2

sorry 11:18 38:2

80:18 86:4

93:25

sort 17:14,15

21:4,18 23:14

38:18 39:16,17

40:2 46:25

52:15 64:22

69:23 114:13

sortation 19:17

29:15,17,24

30:13 53:17

sorted 17:13

21:10,12 22:6

40:6 52:16

58:1,3,17,17

sorter 16:24

sorting 18:15

21:21,25 22:1

22:2,4,9,17

52:22

sources 106:13

south 10:19,25

33:9

southeast 10:22

SOUTHERN

3:8

span 41:9

SPE 92:20

speak 50:3 72:23

76:18

specific 21:24

24:1 25:5

30:21 32:19

34:25 35:1

40:8,11,14

46:24 60:4

65:3 112:10,22

specifically 22:8

spend 11:19

54:10

Springs 40:4

SS 117:1

staffing 12:2

staged 44:13

61:12

stages 64:2

standard 33:4,7

33:12,13

110:24 111:23

standards 29:7

30:4 70:23,25

71:17 72:2,15

73:9 74:1,3

87:15

start 9:23 15:19

21:7 44:14

64:3 66:17

started 10:1

20:16

starting 67:8

90:9

starts 7:3

state 1:3,16,22

3:17,17 5:8

10:2 33:2

40:19 41:4

66:21,23 68:4

68:7,14,16,19

69:1,7,14,18

70:6,8 72:4,21

73:8,18 75:8

75:22 76:3,10

78:2,4,10,11

80:15,23 81:21

81:23 83:11,21

84:10,13,16

87:2,11,25

89:19 90:8

91:24 99:4

100:1,4 101:14

103:6 107:4

108:12,14,24

115:14 116:1

117:1,6 119:1

119:5

States 1:1,19 2:2

3:12 72:1

Statesville 7:5

stating 106:18

station 10:6,9,12

10:13 60:17

stations 75:12

statutes 65:4

stay 16:16 61:24

staying 72:9

stealing 74:11

74:14

step 17:6 19:15

43:14 46:12

47:10 51:15

52:12

steps 16:1 18:12

39:23 42:17,18

52:4

STEWART 2:9

3:18

stick 70:12

sticker 44:23

45:4,6 80:10

sticking 107:9

sticks 34:23 87:7

stipulate 107:5

stop 43:13 46:5

stopped 97:3

stopping 49:4

stream 24:7

31:11 38:18

street 3:4,14,24

23:6,11 36:23

38:4 60:2

strive 110:24

strong 42:20

student 75:16

76:11,25 78:12

78:12,22 79:14

80:22,25 105:9

105:12

students 68:14

70:24 71:19

72:4 74:2

75:24 81:23

studied 24:18

28:13

studies 26:19

27:15 28:11

57:3 65:12

114:11,20

study 24:22

113:2 114:7

stuff 11:4 32:1,3

45:10 47:11

48:19 60:13,22

68:6,24 85:23

114:14

subject 72:24

subpoena 13:15

subsequently

78:8

subunits 34:16

success 18:14

28:13 34:6

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39:12

suite 2:10 3:9,19

4:3 23:4

summarize

58:24

summation

59:11

supervise 6:14

34:4

supervision 12:9

supervisor 10:4

supports 48:18

supposed 18:2

22:18 60:13

63:18 70:1,23

71:17 78:16

sure 5:20 6:4

9:25 11:14

20:17 21:16

22:21 23:19

24:17,21,22

32:3 39:24

41:15 44:1

48:5,5 54:10

55:11 58:25

62:1 66:5

73:11,11,14

74:9 76:4 79:9

82:15 84:2,9

84:21 85:4,14

86:1 93:3,6

99:21 101:4

102:15 104:4

106:23 110:13

114:5 115:2

swearing 24:6

swift 65:9

sworn 5:2 119:7

symbol 95:22

system 16:21

17:17 18:8,17

19:25 20:12

21:2 23:2,9

30:12 32:8

38:9,17 40:6

43:6 44:6,10

44:15 45:24

46:18 52:6

55:5,7,8,25

57:23 58:9

59:2 60:21,23

61:14 62:10,21

64:6 65:20

66:3,4 76:6,16

76:22 79:25

85:17 95:18

106:3,8,10

systems 17:22

17:23 53:13

108:21

T

T 119:3,3

tag 19:14

tagged 64:1

take 6:5,9 14:24

19:19,21 24:4

32:16,24 42:22

47:25 49:5

74:10,15 75:16

82:17 85:1

90:23 102:14

taken 16:8 19:10

90:1

takes 16:12 31:8

31:23 45:19

46:11 47:6,7

48:22,24 59:24

60:16,25 63:4

64:10,12,16

65:24

talk 42:11 77:16

111:15

talked 51:15

60:24 78:9

talking 15:10

16:2 43:23

44:19 52:5

53:11 60:12

62:14,17 65:22

talks 68:2 93:10

teleconference

3:4

tell 5:4 6:10 9:14

9:20,23 13:5

15:24 23:17

24:21 25:7

28:24 31:11,25

32:19 46:18

63:21 74:5,18

77:12,25 79:5

84:18,18 90:16

94:19 95:1,8,9

95:22 103:24

104:17 110:6,7

tells 29:16 31:9

111:1

ten 25:1,3

tend 79:1

terminology

86:4

terms 86:2

test 30:16 66:16

99:13,22

101:12

tester 30:18

testified 5:5

94:23 106:7

testify 15:16

119:8

testimony 89:18

89:23 100:4,12

115:2 119:13

testing 66:10

112:18

Thank 14:2 94:2

107:15 116:13

116:14

they'd 44:23

76:14 78:14

81:15

thickness 110:8

thing 5:21 28:20

34:7 52:7 62:7

65:8 67:7,25

68:22 89:4

99:20 104:20

things 11:24

12:6 17:18,25

39:12 40:10

63:14 110:21

think 27:1,2,6

27:11 36:5,11

40:15 42:7,12

43:9 46:10

55:14 69:17

71:8,14 81:18

88:13 91:6,13

97:3 103:5

104:2 107:3

111:11 113:3

113:16,24,24

thinking 107:13

THOMAS 3:19

thomas.farr@...

3:21

thought 78:1

107:11

thousand 30:7

three 7:23 10:17

11:5 18:21

22:12 26:8

30:19,20 32:5

33:10 34:9,20

threw 58:7

throw 57:1

thrown 22:5

58:11,22

Thursday 2:6

33:25

tied 114:17

till 33:19 53:3

time 6:5 11:3,24

16:9 18:3,15

19:25 20:5

21:6 29:5

30:22 31:11

33:12,16,18,22

33:23 36:8

39:6,17 41:9

42:8,23,24

46:16 53:4,7

53:15 54:7,10

55:12 64:10,14

82:6 91:9

97:25 99:5

timeliness 29:2

46:2

times 23:7,22

34:10 57:22

58:5 72:24

80:6 82:5

88:25 105:24

106:1 111:16

112:4,7 113:18

title 10:13

today 5:15 7:8

13:6 14:17

15:17 29:13,17

33:17,22,24

40:16 41:24

43:5,7 44:17

45:2,16 53:22

58:1,2,17 61:6

61:6,11

Tom 5:12

tomorrow 29:20

33:19 42:3

44:18 45:11

47:12 61:13

tomorrow's

33:18

tonight 47:11,12

top 7:3 9:7 30:15

40:4 63:21

76:9 83:23

111:10

topic 15:20

touch 60:2

touches 21:11

track 45:19 47:4

47:7 48:10,22

48:24 57:10,11

59:23 63:4

88:23

tracked 53:25

60:25

tracking 49:2

tracks 65:17

train 49:24

trained 50:2

training 49:25

50:1,2,6

transcript 4:15

14:6 119:12

TRANSCRIP...

118:1

transcripts

13:17

transportation

68:17 69:3

87:19

tray 29:21,23

39:15 58:14

60:19

trays 29:21

treat 35:16

treated 95:3

tried 28:18

trigger 46:15

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 47 of 50

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58:3 65:21

105:23 112:8

triggered 84:9

112:21

triggers 24:9

40:2

true 69:8 117:7

119:12

truth 5:4,4,5

84:18 119:8,8

try 5:23 6:3

36:16 41:3

46:21 58:24

84:10,12 85:13

85:19,24

114:12

trying 21:2,3

51:7 64:9,23

85:3 101:9,11

114:5

turn 38:8 93:9

turned 32:25

twelve 93:22

two 7:1 11:7

12:6,23 15:16

17:18 18:21

19:2,20 20:21

24:10 29:8,9

29:11,14,14

30:25 33:3,8,9

33:13 34:8

35:8,14,19

36:1 41:10

49:10,13,14

58:3,18 64:12

94:12,15,16

101:21 104:16

106:1

two-day 42:7

type 18:7 27:1

29:1 59:25

60:19 68:24

72:14 73:5

76:6 91:24

95:2 113:23

typed 18:11 44:4

types 61:16

typewriting

119:11

typewritten

18:11

typical 29:20

41:23

typically 32:24

33:21 34:19

39:19 45:11

46:21 49:15,25

53:22 60:1,19

65:8 72:8

113:7

U

U.S 3:13,23 6:13

65:5 72:25

108:4

Uh-huh 15:5

32:12 34:5

37:1 54:16

67:10 71:10

92:24 94:8

97:18 98:16

112:15

umbrella 113:24

unable 81:5 95:6

96:10,12,19

undeliverable

15:25 55:22

56:15 60:5

70:5 111:3

underlying

102:21,21

understand 5:20

5:22 15:15

17:20 18:20

49:10 58:25

62:1 86:1,10

89:22 101:10

114:5 115:2

Underwood

4:23 91:12

102:20 104:12

105:4 108:7

109:14 110:16

114:8 115:18

Underwood's

104:14 107:18

110:12

undue 65:13

unique 16:13

19:14,22 27:24

30:11 35:9

46:23 49:14

51:8 68:15

69:21 75:14

105:25

unit 35:22 37:11

37:16,25 50:5

50:9 51:5

58:14

United 1:1,19

2:2 3:12 72:1

units 37:20 72:7

universities

35:17 69:25

70:23 71:17

75:4 76:5

79:18 81:14

university 9:18

9:18 38:1

66:23 68:16,19

69:1,3,11 70:6

70:8 72:3,21

73:5,23 74:8

74:11 75:10,17

75:18,18 76:13

76:17,19 78:13

78:14,17,24

79:16 80:2

82:5 89:8

university's

73:20 75:23

76:15

urban 42:5,9

use 40:20 51:5

66:15 71:24

86:4 108:21

109:4 113:7

uses 108:25

USPS 71:13

usually 22:25

27:7 35:25

43:8 61:10

74:15 82:4

V

vacant 25:21

26:1,4,6

vary 39:8

vendor 111:13

vendors 109:8,9

venture 63:23

verification

40:19 66:22

81:22 89:20

101:14 109:15

115:14

verify 41:3

54:19 85:24

89:20 91:25

115:15

verifying 108:8

Verizon 30:7

version 95:10

versus 24:20,23

25:8 36:4

47:18 111:21

vice 8:12,16,23

VIDEOGRAP...

4:2

Virginia 33:9

63:12

volume 54:7,21

59:25 61:4,19

61:20,25 62:15

63:9 64:8 66:6

71:6 111:22

volumes 48:15

voted 116:9

voter 78:4 89:23

90:2,2 109:15

116:5

voters 1:10 3:7

41:3 78:4,5

89:20 90:17

91:25 92:20

100:10 101:15

103:3,4 108:15

115:15

vs 1:6,15,21

118:2

W

Wait 80:17

Wake 32:10,11

32:15,17 117:2

119:2

wall 6:2

want 6:5 41:15

67:15 74:6

80:19 81:19

82:16 89:17

90:23 106:22

113:11,12

115:1

wanted 32:10

39:4 41:1 49:9

77:18 78:5,8

78:21 88:16

Washington 3:5

3:15

wasn't 25:19

56:21 84:7

87:6 111:22

Watauga 75:2

way 7:4 10:24

25:18 26:4

28:20 29:10

32:8 36:1,13

51:18 52:12

55:2 62:13

72:4,11,20

75:7,19 79:12

83:12 88:19,22

110:6,7,13,17

113:19,25

ways 23:21

29:11 44:2

we'll 14:11 32:1

58:13,13,19

78:7 84:14

85:19 89:3,16

107:5,14

we're 6:8 7:8

11:21 12:13

16:2 25:21,23

26:2 27:22,23

30:14 31:10

32:20 36:14

39:23 40:24

41:21 43:23

44:19 48:17,18

52:5 60:12

62:14 66:5,5

74:15 77:19,25

90:20 102:5

112:19

we've 91:6 92:25

104:12,15

week 32:21

93:20 98:9

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weekends 48:8

weeks 94:12,15

94:16

welcome 67:14

went 10:20

54:22 58:6,8

84:9 94:3

97:12

weren't 56:12,22

87:13 97:25

99:12,25

100:20

West 3:9

whatsoever

83:12

Wilmington

11:2

window 61:9

86:6

Winston-Salem

12:20,23 66:21

66:23 68:3,7

68:14,16,19,20

68:23,25 69:7

69:14 70:6,8

72:4,21 73:7

73:18 75:8,21

76:2,10 78:2

78:10,11 80:14

80:23 81:21,23

87:11,25

wish 71:1

witness 59:8

67:17 68:5

90:12 92:16

94:19 107:3,8

107:12,15

118:2 119:10

119:13

Women 1:10 3:7

word 12:4 42:14

words 29:18

46:16 81:6

work 11:21

worked 10:13

39:17 61:5

110:14

workers 74:3

87:16 88:8

working 50:11

68:10

works 60:17

world 110:19

worthwhile

34:11

wouldn't 15:10

26:9 37:24,25

52:7 54:5,11

55:17 56:1,7

62:7 64:24

66:15 78:18,20

78:23 79:1

81:15 88:3,11

88:12,23 96:21

99:15 101:1

write 43:3 77:5

80:12,12

writing 14:23

wrong 12:3 23:6

38:13 65:8

114:22

X

Y

yeah 12:10

13:16,25 19:5

20:25 22:10

31:9 36:5,8,13

40:17,24 42:19

43:22,25 45:21

47:22 49:13

51:22 65:7

74:4,25 78:17

79:10 82:18

93:5,8 96:17

97:1 100:9

111:7 113:10

115:4

year 10:10 11:10

32:22 41:17

55:6,24 82:8

year's 55:12

years 9:25 11:5

11:7 26:24

50:3 58:21

77:1

yellow 45:6

95:13 96:8

yesterday 58:17

Z

zip 21:21,22,24

22:13 27:24

32:2,4 34:25

35:4,5,9,12,14

35:15 36:1,2

36:10,25 37:22

38:5,11,13,17

39:21 40:8

46:24,25 47:23

49:10,13,14,15

49:18 50:13

51:8 68:15,17

69:21 75:14,18

75:25 76:12

0

09 36:11,12

37:22

1

1 4:14 14:12,13

14:15 40:14

66:22 89:18

91:16 92:1

104:12,14,22

104:22 109:11

109:15 110:1

115:12

1,075 94:3 97:3

1,132 99:9

103:15

1:00 2:5

1:13-CV-658 1:6

1:13-CV-660

1:15

1:13-CV-861

1:21

10-15-13 4:20

10,000 46:19

100 3:24

1000 4:3

101 3:9

102 4:10

105 44:2 106:24

107:3,9,11,12

107:13

106 97:8

108 4:9

11 43:8

1100 2:10 3:19

11th 93:19

12 90:10

127 14:8

12th 94:4 97:4

14 2:6 4:14,17

118:3 119:6

140 10:24

1415 3:9

144 90:9

146 90:10,15

14th 97:9

150 63:23

15th 67:25

17th 93:24 94:1

103:14

18 10:12 90:10

93:21

1800 3:14

1993 10:3

1997 10:4

19th 97:13

2

2 4:17 14:21,22

14:24 15:17

68:1 92:10

2,400 92:19

93:14 99:8

103:13

20 54:24 55:2

59:2,5 62:7,21

62:25

20-year-olds

79:11

200 63:23

20005 3:5

20006 3:15

200621500068

119:22

2013 67:7,25

68:10

2014 14:7 66:19

82:20 87:3

91:12 97:9,19

103:14,15

2015 2:6 117:9

118:3 119:6,18

202 3:5,15

233 3:24

259-0645 3:25

26 9:25

26th 66:19

27110 68:15

274 95:17

275 34:21

276 34:21

27609 3:20 4:4

277 32:6 34:21

27707 3:10

282 34:21

28307 36:5,7,25

38:14

28308 51:7

28309 36:5 37:6

37:8 38:5

28801 3:24

29th 93:13 97:6

97:13

2nd 14:7 91:12

97:17 99:9

103:14

3

3 4:18 67:2,4

69:5 81:19

91:13 115:23

30(b)(6) 2:1

323-3380 3:10

325 37:14

353-7738 3:15

36 97:12

3rd 67:7

4

4 4:19 67:19,20

67:24 69:5

71:7 81:19

92:7 109:18

4-2-14 4:16

4,000 6:17

4:13 116:16

400 21:23

4208 2:10 3:19

4:3

475 94:11,15

97:5

5

5 4:9,21 21:11

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77:20,22,24

79:23 92:15

93:1,7,8 94:22

95:10,25 104:7

104:8,14,23

109:11,25

115:1

50 89:2

500 21:23

54 3:9

6

6 4:22 90:4,5

99:9

6-24-14 4:22

60-year-old 79:8

600 93:13 94:14

97:4

649-9998 4:4

655 3:4

67 4:18,19

7

7 4:23 91:2,7

97:3 102:20

103:9 104:13

104:15 115:21

7254-NWB 3:14

77 4:21

787-9700 3:20

7th 95:4,11

8

80 18:15 54:6,7

54:13,18,21

59:1 62:8,9,20

80s 50:6

828 3:25

82nd 37:14

879-5901 3:5

9

9-3-13 4:18

90 4:22

91 4:23

919 3:10,20 4:4

95 21:12

96 33:4,11 34:6

41:9 42:8

64:14

98 41:23 42:2

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 50 of 50

SUSAN SCHAFFER May 8, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor)

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )

v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

DEPOSITION OF SUSAN SCHAFFER

__________________________________________________

10:01 A.M.

FRIDAY, MAY 8, 2015

__________________________________________________

204 WATTS STREET

DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA

By: Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 For the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP

BY: MADELYN MORRIS5 601 Lexington Avenue

New York, New York 100226 (212)446-4680

madelyn.morris@kirkland.com7

ADVANCEMENT PROJECT8 BY: DONITA JUDGE VIA TELEPHONE

1220 L Street NW, Suite 8509 Washington, D.C. 20005

(202)728-955710 djudge@advancementproject.org11 For the State of North Carolina and SBOE:12 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

BY: MICHAEL D. MCKNIGHT13 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100

Raleigh, North Carolina 2760914 (919)787-9700

michael.mcknight@ogletreedeakins.com15

The Videographer: Brad Smith16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2

Examinations Page3

By Ms. Morris . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 84

By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 405

By Ms. Morris . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 896

By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 927

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

4

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2

Exhibit Description Page3

1 2014 Voting & Election Day 174 Irregularities Incident Report Form5 2 Susan Schaffer Facebook Page 806

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

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1 STIPULATIONS

2 It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the

3 parties to this action, through their respective

4 counsel of record:

5 1. That the deposition of Susan Schaffer may be

6 taken on May 8, 2015, at 10:01 a.m. in Durham, NC

7 before Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M.

8 2. That the deposition shall be taken and used

9 as permitted by the applicable Federal Rules of Civil

10 Procedure.

11 3. That any objections of any party hereto as

12 to notice of the taking of said deposition or as to

13 the time or place thereof, or as to the competency of

14 the person before whom the same shall be taken, are

15 deemed to have been met.

16 4. That objections to questions and motions to

17 strike answers need not be made during the taking of

18 this deposition, but may be made for the first time

19 during the progress of the trial of this case, or at

20 any pretrial hearing held before any judge of

21 competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling

22 thereon, or any other hearing at which said

23 deposition shall be used, except that objections to

24 the form of the question must be made at the time

25 such question is asked or objection as to the form of

6

1 the question is waived.

2 5. That the witness reserves the right to read

3 and sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.

4 6. That the sealed original of the transcript

5 shall be mailed First Class Postage Paid or

6 hand-delivered to the party taking the deposition for

7 preservation and delivery to the Court if and when

8 necessary.

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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 10:01

2 a.m. Today's date is May the 8th, 2015, and

3 this is the videotaped deposition of Ms. Susan

4 Schaffer taken in the matter of North Carolina

5 State Conference of the NAACP, et al., versus

6 Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity

7 as the Governor of North Carolina, et al.;

8 League of Women Voters of North Carolina, et

9 al., versus the State of North Carolina, et al.;

10 and United States of America versus the state of

11 North Carolina, et al., with case numbers

12 1:13-CV-658, 660 and 861. Would counsel please

13 now introduce themselves and then our court

14 reporter will swear in the witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Could you -- can I take

16 a -- could you stop it for a second?

17 MS. MORRIS: Yeah. Sorry. Can you go

18 off the record for a minute?

19 THE WITNESS: I just want to go get a

20 tissue.

21 MS. MORRIS: Yeah. No problem.

22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the

23 record at 10:02 a.m.

24 (Brief Recess: 10:02 a.m. to 10:04 a.m.)

25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

8

1 10:04 a.m. and now counsel can introduce

2 themselves.

3 MS. MORRIS: Madelyn Morris, Kirkland

4 & Ellis, appearing on behalf of the North

5 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP,

6 plaintiffs.

7 MR. MCKNIGHT: And my name is Michael

8 McKnight. I -- and -- and I'm an attorney

9 representing the State Board of Elections, the

10 defendants in this matter, or these matters,

11 rather.

12 MS. MORRIS: On the line?

13 MS. JUDGE: Donita Judge. Donita

14 Judge, Advance- -- Advancement Project,

15 representing the North Carolina NAACP,

16 plaintiffs.

17 MS. MORRIS: Great.

18 EXAMINATION

19 BY MS. MORRIS:

20 Q. Ms. Schaffer, can you please state your name for

21 the record?

22 A. Susan Schaffer.

23 Q. And have you ever been deposed before?

24 A. Not that I recall.

25 Q. So, I'm going you give you a bit of background

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1 on how this will go. I'm going to be asking you

2 questions, and I ask that you answer to the best

3 of your ability and only answer things that you

4 know and not to speculate or guess on things.

5 You're here to give testimony to the things that

6 you know. If you don't hear or understand any

7 of my questions, let me know and I'll be happy

8 to rephrase. If you do answer the question, can

9 I assume that you've heard and understood the

10 question?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, there may be times where instead of

13 answering out loud, you're inclined to nod or

14 gesture. Just in order to make sure the record

15 is clear, please make sure to keep your answers

16 verbal, and I'll make sure to remind you if --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- you ever need to talk to me. At some point,

19 if you give an answer that you feel is

20 inaccurate or incomplete, also please let me

21 know and I will give you a chance to make sure

22 that you have the answer on the record and the

23 words that you want and that it's complete.

24 A. I will.

25 Q. And also let me know if you need a break at any

10

1 time. You've done a good job of that already,

2 but -- and I think if I ask and Mr. McKnight

3 will -- may ask that if there is a question

4 outstanding on the record, that you answer it

5 and then we can break.

6 A. I understand.

7 Q. I'd like to talk a little bit about your

8 background, so can you walk me through your

9 educational background?

10 A. I went to public school in Burlington, New

11 Jersey. I attended and got a bachelor's degree

12 at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

13 and I got a law degree from Rutgers Law School

14 in Camden, New Jersey.

15 Q. What did you major in in undergrad?

16 A. Philosophy.

17 Q. And is your law degree the highest degree that

18 you've gotten?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And what's your profession?

21 A. I am a retired attorney.

22 Q. What sort of law did you practice when you were

23 a practicing attorney?

24 A. For the last 25 years of my career, I was

25 in-house counsel at -- the final name for the

11

1 company was AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals.

2 Q. And do you have any experience or expertise in

3 the area of election law?

4 A. No, I do not.

5 Q. Where were you born?

6 A. I was born in Trenton, New Jersey.

7 Q. And when did you move to North Carolina?

8 A. We moved to North Carolina in January or

9 February of 2011. We purchased our house a few

10 months earlier, but were not able to sell our

11 house in Pennsylvania until January or February

12 2011.

13 Q. And what brought you to North Carolina?

14 A. Our oldest child went to Duke University. Our

15 youngest child went to UNC Chapel Hill, and they

16 both stayed here and the oldest had three

17 children, so when we retired, we decided to move

18 to be closer to family.

19 Q. Now, if you recall, how long after moving to

20 North Carolina did you register to vote?

21 A. I think we registered within the first year, but

22 I don't remember exactly when.

23 Q. Do you remember how you registered?

24 A. I believe we registered by mail, but I'm not

25 positive.

12

1 Q. And if you remember, what's the first election

2 that you voted in when you were in North

3 Carolina?

4 A. I believe the first election was the general

5 election in 2011.

6 Q. Do you happen to remember how you voted in that

7 election or any of the other elections in North

8 Carolina?

9 A. Yes. We voted at the polls du- -- during early

10 voting.

11 Q. Why do you remember that you voted in early

12 voting in 2011?

13 A. Because we were very pleased that there was the

14 option of early voting. We had not experienced

15 that before, and we found it to be a very easy

16 way to vote. There was on- -- there's only been

17 one time in which we voted other than by early

18 voting.

19 Q. So in every election that you voted in since

20 2011, you voted early voting?

21 A. Except for the primary in 2014.

22 Q. And why -- how did you vote in the 2014 primary

23 election?

24 A. We voted by absentee ballot.

25 Q. Why did you vote by absentee in 2014?

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1 A. We had been told that you didn't -- I had

2 learned that you didn't need any qual- -- any --

3 you didn't need to qualify in terms of being out

4 of the state to vote by absentee ballot, and I

5 had been told that it was a fairly simple way to

6 vote and I thought that it might be a way to

7 increase voter turnout, so I decided to

8 experiment myself and vote by absentee ballot

9 and see how -- how that experience was.

10 Q. And what was your impression of early -- or

11 sorry -- of the -- the absentee process when you

12 voted in 2014?

13 A. I thought it was somewhat complicated and

14 somewhat intimidating.

15 Q. Why do you think it was complicated or

16 intimidating?

17 A. Well, it required, if I was interpreting --

18 there -- there were a lot of instructions, first

19 of all. There were many instructions.

20 Secondly, one of the instructions required you

21 to obtain two witnesses but not only to obtain

22 two witnesses, but if I understood it correctly,

23 you had to fill out your ballot in front of the

24 witnesses, which, number one, since the ballot

25 was very long, was a tremendous imposition on

14

1 the witness and -- witnesses -- and, secondly,

2 it kind of potentially violated the sort of

3 confidentiality that you assume as inherent in

4 voting.

5 Q. Was there any other thing besides needing to

6 have two witnesses that you felt made it

7 complicated or intimidating?

8 A. I just remember that there were a lot of

9 instructions and I was nervous as to what would

10 happen if I failed to follow one of the

11 instructions, but I don't remember what they --

12 what any of the others were other than the

13 two-witness requirement.

14 Q. You ultimately mailed in your 2014 absentee

15 ballot?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. So have you ever worked as a poll monitor or

18 poll watcher before?

19 A. I -- the only time I worked as a poll monitor or

20 poll watcher was in the general election in

21 2014.

22 Q. Why did you become a poll monitor?

23 A. I had become involved in voter registration

24 through a nonpartisan organization in Durham

25 known as You Can Vote, and I became more

15

1 interested in the election process in North

2 Carolina and I decided that I wanted to have a

3 role on election day, so I consulted one of the

4 people in You Can Vote, and she suggested that I

5 volunteer to participate through another

6 nonpartisan organization, which is Democracy

7 North Carolina. So I contacted them and

8 received training and volunteered as -- I'm not

9 sure if it was a poll monitor, poll watcher.

10 I'm not sure what the technical term was.

11 Q. What term is most comfortable for you? And I'll

12 use that one.

13 A. I guess poll watcher.

14 Q. Okay. And what are the responsibilities or

15 duties of a poll watcher?

16 A. I can't answer what generally the

17 responsibilities of a poll watcher are. I can

18 only answer -- and since I only did it once, I

19 can only answer what responsibilities I was

20 given. And generally it was to observe from a

21 dis- -- somewhat of a distance, but also we were

22 given a survey which had been prepared -- my

23 recollection is by a -- an academic in political

24 science, I believe -- that was intended to

25 capture the experience of the voter, and we were

16

1 asked to interview voters after they had voted

2 and record their responses to the specific

3 questions, which as I recall, there were,

4 perhaps, six or eight questions.

5 Q. Do you remember what were those questions?

6 A. They were pretty general and it was kind -- I --

7 I -- I remember the first one was very

8 open-ended, just asking, "How was your voting

9 experience?" And then there were -- there were

10 other questions that asked if certain things

11 would make you more or less likely to

12 participate in the election, but I don't

13 remember what those things were.

14 Q. And why was Democracy North Carolina interested

15 in these surveys, if you remember or know?

16 A. Well, the new election law had been passed and

17 some, but not all, of the provisions in the new

18 election law weren't -- were in effect in the

19 2014 election, so they wanted to try and measure

20 what the impact of those provisions were.

21 Q. What happened to the results of that survey or

22 any surveys that you took during the election?

23 A. Well, I didn't take too many surveys. I after a

24 while switched to doing something else, but the

25 surveys that I did take, I turned in to

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1 Democracy North Carolina, and I have no idea

2 what happened to them after that.

3 Q. So you said that you didn't do -- take many of

4 the surveys. Why didn't you take that many

5 surveys?

6 A. Well, after I was there approximately an hour --

7 I arrived at 6:30 and I think it was

8 approximately an hour after I arrived I began

9 approaching voters who -- and asking them, as I

10 had in the earlier time, how their voting

11 experience was, and many voters answered, "I

12 wasn't allowed to vote; they wouldn't let me

13 vote," or something to that effect. And so I

14 would take the information in the context of the

15 survey, but there were so many people who were

16 giving that response or walking out with these

17 mystified or angry expressions on their face,

18 that I decided it took too long to take the

19 survey and I should just capture as many names

20 as possible of the people who were turned away

21 from the polls.

22 Q. Okay. So at this point I'd like to give you

23 what I'm going to mark as Schaffer Exhibit 1.

24 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 1 was marked for

25 identification.)

18

1 MS. MORRIS: And I'll read the Bates

2 number too into the record. It's NCSC 00006425

3 is where it begins, and the end Bates stamp for

4 the record is NCSC 00006429.

5 Q. Ms. Schaffer, do you recognize this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is this document?

8 A. This is the incident report that I turned in

9 about an hour after I completed my shift on

10 election day.

11 Q. Where did you get this form from?

12 A. I received it as part of a package that I

13 received from Democracy North Carolina a day or

14 two prior to election day on -- in November

15 2014.

16 Q. Have you seen a form like this before in

17 training or before you worked the polls?

18 A. I don't believe so because I signed up rather

19 late and, therefore, I did my training as part

20 of an on-line audiotape, so I think they spoke

21 about the incident report and the survey, but I

22 don't think I had seen them.

23 Q. So how did you know that there were incident

24 reports or a document like this that you could

25 fill out?

19

1 A. Well, when I picked up my -- I'm sorry, to go

2 back to your question, did you ask me if I had

3 seen it before election day or --

4 Q. I was just asking --

5 A. -- before --

6 Q. -- how did you know that a form like this

7 existed --

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. -- that you could fill out?

10 A. I believe, but I'm fairly certain that I picked

11 up my package about a day before the election,

12 so when I received it, I went through it to see

13 what was there, and it was fairly

14 self-explanatory what the purpose of this form

15 was. In addition, the survey form that I

16 referred to was also in that package, and there

17 might have been other things as well, but I

18 don't remember what they were.

19 Q. So in addition to taking the survey that you had

20 been given, was that part of your responsibility

21 to fill out incident reports if there were any,

22 I guess, irregularities?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. How were you assigned to the polling place?

25 A. They asked us some questions about our

20

1 preferences and they asked if I would be willing

2 to go outside of Durham, and because I'm

3 relatively new to North Carolina, I told them

4 that I preferred to be in Durham, and then I was

5 just randomly assigned to Precinct 54, which was

6 the Durham County Library South Regional Branch.

7 Q. Is this your precinct?

8 A. No, it is not.

9 Q. If possible, could we turn to addendum A of this

10 document, and can you tell me who are the people

11 on the list over these three pages beginning on

12 the addendum A?

13 A. Well, I had a partner who was assigned to the

14 shift that I was assigned to when the shift was

15 supposed to be from 6:30 to 10:30, a four-hour

16 shift, and so this list is the list of people to

17 -- with whom my partner and I spoke who reported

18 that they had been turned away from Precinct 54

19 after waiting a considerable period of time in

20 line trying to vote.

21 Q. Why were the people on this list unable to vote,

22 if you remember?

23 A. I believe every one of them were told that this

24 was not their assigned precinct and that they

25 had to report in -- to a different precinct, and

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1 to the credit of the Election -- of the Board of

2 Election workers, most of these people were told

3 which precinct to report to.

4 Q. Were -- was anyone on this list told that they

5 couldn't vote at the precinct for any other

6 reason?

7 A. Not that I recall.

8 Q. And is this list a comprehensive list of

9 everyone you spoke to on election day who was

10 unable to vote because they were not in the

11 correct precinct?

12 A. No, it is not.

13 Q. Why isn't it a complete list?

14 A. Well, because there were a few people -- there

15 were people here and there who said they weren't

16 allowed to vote but didn't have time to speak

17 with us so we didn't capture their information.

18 There were also people who just didn't like the

19 idea of giving their name and telephone number,

20 although they had revealed to us that they

21 weren't allowed to vote.

22 Q. Do you have any estimate of how many people you

23 spoke with that, as you put it, aren't --

24 weren't allowed to vote that are not on this

25 list?

22

1 A. No, I really can't estimate the number, but it

2 was more than a few.

3 Q. Okay. I -- when you say they weren't allowed to

4 vote, what do you mean by that?

5 A. I mean they stood in line, in most cases, I

6 believe, about 45 minutes with the exception of

7 the curbside voting, in which case it was much

8 longer. They stood in line and -- and then when

9 they got into the Board of Election room or the

10 room where the voting machines were and their

11 names were looked up, they were told they were

12 in the wrong precinct and turned away.

13 Q. How do you know that they were turned away or

14 that they were told they were in the wrong

15 precinct?

16 A. Because that's what was reported to me by the

17 people that I spoke to.

18 Q. Did anyone report being given a provisional

19 ballot?

20 A. No, no one reported being given a provisional

21 ballot.

22 Q. What else was anyone else on this list told

23 about where they could vote?

24 A. Well, they -- they were told, as I said, which

25 precinct they were assigned to, but many of

23

1 them, when they came out, weren't sure that that

2 was the right one because they had just gone

3 through standing in line and not being able to

4 vote. And many of them, but -- they were so

5 surprised by the -- by not being able to vote

6 when they had voted in the same precinct many

7 years before, that they didn't even remember

8 what had been told to them about what precinct

9 to vote in. I'm sorry. I don't remember what

10 the question was.

11 Q. It's okay. We'll start do you know why these

12 people were not at the correct precinct?

13 A. Most of these people said they had voted in this

14 precinct many or at least several years prior to

15 2014, so it never even occurred to them that it

16 might be the wrong precinct. My understanding

17 is that out-of-precinct voting was allowed by

18 the law prior to the 2014 election, so whether

19 they were voting out of precinct or whether

20 their precinct -- or whether they had been

21 reassigned, I don't know.

22 Q. Did you ask any of the voters that question?

23 A. Yes, I did. Most of them seemed to think it was

24 their correct precinct, but there was a lot of

25 confusion.

24

1 Q. How do you know that no one was given a

2 provisional ballot that was on this list, at

3 least?

4 A. In -- in the weeks prior to the general -- the

5 -- the voting day I volunteered, also with

6 Democracy North Carolina, for a voting hotline,

7 and the subject of provisional ballots came up,

8 and my understanding is that they would not just

9 offer you a provisional ballot, that it was

10 something that you had to request, but I'm --

11 I'm not positive of that. It's just the

12 impression that I had.

13 Q. And what about from the voters themselves on

14 this list? Did anyone tell you about being

15 offered a provisional ballot --

16 A. No --

17 Q. -- or not being offered a provi- -- anything

18 about provisional ballots at all? Did anyone on

19 this list talk about --

20 A. No, to the contrary. They all said they weren't

21 permitted to vote, and I think if they had been

22 offered an alternative like, well, you can't

23 vote on the regular ballot but you had vote --

24 you can vote on the provisional ballot, that's

25 what they would have done. That was clearly the

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1 -- because many of them now were uncertain

2 whether they had the time to go to another

3 precinct and potentially wait in another long

4 line. So they clearly -- their attitude

5 reflected was that they would have welcomed an

6 alternative and were not offered it. But in --

7 but specifically the subject of provisional

8 ballot just didn't come up.

9 Q. So, in sum, you were just told by voters, "I

10 wasn't allowed to vote" or "I was turned away"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Without any specific reference to provisional

13 ballots?

14 A. That's correct. No one mentioned provisional

15 ballots.

16 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, on this list was

17 able to get to their correct polling site?

18 A. No, but I know -- no, I -- I -- I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know if there's anyone that's on this

20 list that was unable to vote at all in the 2014

21 election?

22 A. I don't know, but many people did express not

23 having the time to wait in line at another

24 precinct.

25 Q. At any point -- well, let me go to the first

26

1 page of your report. You write on the first

2 page, "All ethnicities, but majority

3 African-American." What do you mean by that

4 phrase?

5 A. Well, the question -- this -- this report form

6 is designed to report one incident per person,

7 and I didn't have the time to fill out a

8 separate incident report for every person. I

9 didn't even have time to capture all the

10 incidents. Just filling out the name and

11 telephone number took more time than I needed

12 because there were so many people. So I tried

13 -- so since ethnicity was one of the pieces of

14 data that was requested on the form, I attempted

15 to summarize the ethnicity of the group of

16 people on the addenda by describing it. And so

17 what I meant was that all ethnicities were

18 represented in the people who were not permitted

19 to vote at this precinct, but the clear majority

20 was African-American.

21 Q. Did you keep a record of the race or ethnicity

22 of any of the individual voters on this list?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. So how do you know that the majority were

25 African-American?

27

1 A. Because -- because I -- I -- I wrote this report

2 immediately after I came home from my shift, and

3 that was my clear impression, and if it had been

4 close to 50/50, I would not have said a majority

5 because -- but it was a -- it was a clear

6 majority, and so I thought that that should be

7 captured. But there were also Hispanic and

8 Caucasian people who were denied the right to

9 vote, or were sent -- wrote -- vote in that

10 precinct, but the clear majority were

11 African-American.

12 Q. You also wrote on the first page of this report,

13 "Voters on the addendum represent only a

14 fraction of the voters that were turned away

15 after waiting 20 to 60 minutes because they

16 were" -- going on to the next page -- "at the

17 wrong precinct and were no longer allowed to

18 vote out of precinct due to new law. Many

19 voters said they had been voting at this

20 precinct for years." I'll stop reading there.

21 What -- how do you know how long people had

22 waited?

23 A. Because I observed the length of the line when I

24 arrived and -- at 6:30 -- I -- but I'm not

25 positive when the polls opened, but they might

28

1 have opened -- I'm not sure whether they were

2 already open or whether they opened at 7:00.

3 But early on, since there were many people

4 voting before work, there was a long line and I

5 would ask people when they came out how long

6 they had waited, and 45 minutes was the --

7 generally the average amount of time.

8 Later in the middle of the morning for a

9 time the lines may have gotten slightly shorter

10 and so there -- there was a time when maybe it

11 was 20 minutes, but then it -- the lines got

12 longer again for some reason, so my estimate was

13 that it was 45 minutes.

14 At the curb there was a time I could

15 observe the wait because I was standing at the

16 curb where the curbside vote -- voting took

17 place or very close to the curb, and you could

18 see the vehicles that were there. And, for

19 instance, one vehicle was from one of the

20 retirement communities. It had a name on it, so

21 it was very recognizable, and I happened to

22 notice when that vehicle arrived and I also

23 noticed an hour and a half later that they were

24 just getting to the front of the line.

25 So in the case of the curbside voting, I

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1 could observe it. And in the case of the

2 regular voting, I could observe the length of

3 the line and I also had some information from

4 the people who attempted to vote and were not

5 able to.

6 Q. Did you take any surveys of the curbside voters?

7 A. No, I don't -- don't believe so. I'm not sure

8 whether my partner did or not, but I don't

9 believe so.

10 Q. Who prepared this form that we're looking at?

11 A. I prepared the first two pages marked by the

12 court reporter as 6425 and 6426. The next three

13 pages, Addendum A, B and C, marked 6427, 6428

14 and 6429, was prepared mostly by me, but there

15 were al- -- there is also some entries that were

16 done by my partner in the shift, and then I

17 stayed longer.

18 I was -- my shift was supposed to end at

19 10:30. At that time two other people came on

20 for the new shift. It was clear that two people

21 were not enough to capture all this data, and so

22 I stayed until 12:30. So some of these may have

23 been entries by one or the other of the people

24 on the second shift. But by far, these are

25 mostly entries by me.

30

1 Q. And how did you collect these names and numbers?

2 A. Oh, I -- oh, I have one -- I'd like to make an

3 addition to my last answer. Act- -- the -- some

4 of these entries were made by the voters

5 themselves. In some cases, I may have asked

6 them or they may have preferred, particularly if

7 they had complicated names to spell. In some of

8 these cases they preferred to do the entry them

9 self.

10 Q. So just to summarize, everyone on this list was

11 put -- was written down by you, your partner on

12 the shift, or the voter them self?

13 A. Or one of the people on the later shift.

14 Q. Were you present for the voters who were written

15 down during the later shift?

16 A. Yes, to the extent that they collected mornings

17 after I left, and I'm not sure if they continued

18 doing this, but to the extent that they

19 collected more names, they would have turned

20 them in them self.

21 Q. What happened with this form, if you know?

22 A. The afternoon of election day, I believe, I

23 drove it over to Democracy North Carolina, whose

24 offices are approximately a mile from my house,

25 and turned it in.

31

1 Q. Were any other voting irregularity forms filled

2 out?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. And do you know what was done with this

5 particular form after you turned it into

6 Democracy North Carolina?

7 A. I -- I have no idea.

8 Q. Do you know if there were -- sure. Go ahead.

9 A. I do have something else to add, if I may.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And I'm not sure which question it's responsive

12 to, but when I was having the problem with --

13 and was seeking some advice as to whether to

14 continue with the survey or whether to fill out

15 this incident report, I called Democracy North

16 Carolina to get some instructions, and I was

17 told that that particular precinct was also an

18 early voting precinct. So they suggested that

19 some of the confusion may have been caused by

20 the fact that people had previously voted in

21 that precinct during early voting, which is why

22 it was their impression that they could vote

23 there, and then this particular year were voting

24 on election day, and since they couldn't vote

25 out of precinct, were not allowed to vote. That

32

1 was the suggestion given to me by the -- one of

2 the people at Democracy North Carolina.

3 Q. Did any of the voters specifically tell you that

4 that's why they thought it was their precinct?

5 A. No, they didn't. And, in fact, when I tried to

6 ask them, "Well, in prior elections did you vote

7 during early voting" -- I didn't ask that

8 question and -- to every single person, but my

9 recollection is the people I asked that question

10 to mostly said, "No, I voted on election day."

11 Q. Okay. So you don't know --

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. -- exactly why people had come to this precinct?

14 A. That's right. That's right.

15 Q. Did you talk to any poll watchers at any other

16 polling sites?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. So apart from the lines that you described at

19 the regular voting and at curbside and the

20 individuals who you spoke with that could not

21 vote in that precinct, did you observe any other

22 problems that voters faced on the 2014 election

23 day?

24 A. Well, this is somewhat related to the lines, but

25 it's sort of a further elaboration on that. It

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1 seemed like there were not enough poll workers,

2 and in particular, for curbside voting. There

3 was one guy who had to run back and forth to get

4 this particular ballots for each individual

5 voter because I think there's an assigned ballot

6 for each voter. So he couldn't just, you know,

7 hand out the -- he had to go in and register

8 each of the voters and then come out, and -- and

9 then I think he also may have had duties inside.

10 So sometimes there was no one to greet or

11 service the people at curbside voting, and once

12 or twice I had to go in and let him know that

13 there was someone waiting out at curbside voting

14 when he didn't come out within a reasonable

15 period of time, and they very much appreciated

16 the fact that we were helping in that regard.

17 Q. So besides the -- not enough personnel that you

18 just described, lines at both the curbside and

19 regular voting, and the individuals that you

20 spoke with that were turned away, were there any

21 other problems that you observed on the 2014

22 election?

23 A. I can't recall any other problems.

24 Q. Apart from anyone you spoke with that's captured

25 in this report, do you know of anyone who was

34

1 not able to vote at all in the 2014 election?

2 A. Not that I know of.

3 Q. And apart from the people listed in this

4 particular report, do you know of anyone who was

5 not able to get to their correct polling place

6 on the 2014 election?

7 A. Not that I recall.

8 Q. I'd like to turn now to anything you observed

9 about the soft rollout of voter i.d. If I use

10 the term "soft rollout of voter i.d.," do you

11 know what I mean?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And what do I mean when I say the soft rollout

14 of voter i.d.?

15 A. Well, I don't know whether it was a requirement

16 of the law or whether it was a State Board of

17 Election practice that they instituted, but my

18 understanding is that the Board of Election and

19 the poll workers would ask each voter whether

20 they had a state-approved voter i.d. that would

21 be required for the 2016 election, general

22 election. But from another experience that I

23 had, I don't believe that this was successfully

24 communicated.

25 Q. Well, I'll go back to that, but I first want to

35

1 ask you did you observe anything relating to the

2 soft rollout of voter i.d. at your particular

3 precinct?

4 A. No, I did not. I only obser- -- oh, at my

5 precinct, meaning --

6 Q. Yeah.

7 A. -- the one that I voted at?

8 Q. No. I'm -- let's start with -- well, we'll --

9 I'll ask you about that as well, but first at --

10 on the day that you were a poll watcher, did you

11 observe anything at all relating to the soft

12 rollout of voter i.d.?

13 A. No, because for the most part, I was not in the

14 room where the poll workers were, so I was not

15 in a position to observe that.

16 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other

17 whether information was collected at your

18 particular precinct?

19 A. No, I don't know directly.

20 Q. I guess in your particular precinct that you

21 were actually assigned to and voted in, do you

22 know anything about the soft rollout of voter

23 i.d.?

24 A. Well, it --

25 MR. MCKNIGHT: Object. Just objection

36

1 to that -- that question because I believe she

2 testified she voted early, and so --

3 MS. MORRIS: That's fine.

4 A. At -- at -- yes, at early voting pla- -- polling

5 place where I went, which was the Board of

6 Elections in Durham, I did observe the poll

7 workers asking that question, but I can't

8 remember exactly what they said and I was aware

9 of what the purpose of the question was. I

10 didn't notice any irregularity in that soft

11 rollout --

12 Q. Were you asked --

13 A. -- at that time.

14 Q. -- if you had a proper i.d. for the 2016

15 election?

16 A. I believe I was.

17 Q. Do you know anything else about the soft rollout

18 of voter i.d. that you observed in your capacity

19 as a poll watcher and any other function?

20 A. No, not -- oh, oh, in any other function? Yes,

21 but not as a poll watcher.

22 Q. And what is the other function that you observed

23 anything about the soft rollout of voter i.d.

24 in?

25 A. Well, Democracy North Carolina was a few months

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1 ago calling the list generated by the Board of

2 Elections as a result of the soft rollout, which

3 was supposed to be a list of people who

4 self-identified as not having state-approved

5 voter i.d.'s And so Democracy North Carolina

6 had a phone bank for a few days to call people

7 on that list to try to give them advice about

8 what documents to pull together to obtain a

9 state-issued voter i.d. and possibly to find out

10 if they needed help with transportation or

11 anything else in order to get a state-issued

12 voter i.d.

13 Q. And when did you work that phone bank?

14 A. I think it was either February or March.

15 Q. How long did you work that phone bank for?

16 A. I worked it for a few hours one afternoon, and

17 then I hosted a phone bank at my home for a few

18 hours the next evening for that purpose.

19 Q. And what, if anything, do you remember about the

20 work you did as a part of that phone bank?

21 A. Well, what I remember is almost no one on that

22 list was a person who should have been on that

23 list. In other words, almost everyone on that

24 list had a driver's license or some other form

25 of state-issued i.d. such as an expired driver's

38

1 license held by someone who was elderly, which

2 is an approved state-issued i.d., and they

3 expressed confusion as to why they were on the

4 list.

5 There may have been a handful of people --

6 I only recall maybe three or four people of the

7 hundreds of people that I called that should

8 have been on the list that -- or as far as the

9 list was intended to be people who did not have

10 state-issued i.d.'s at the time of the 2014

11 election.

12 So we could only speculate as to why the

13 list was so inaccurate. The only thing we could

14 come up with was that either the poll workers

15 were not trained properly how to ask the

16 question or they didn't understand themselves

17 how to ask the question or they just weren't

18 clear as to what they were asking. Some people

19 said what they thought they were being asked was

20 whether they had their state-issued i.d. in

21 their possession, and because their driver's

22 license was in their car, they answered no and

23 then ended up on this list.

24 Q. How many people do you estimate that you spoke

25 to during your phone bank duties with Democracy

39

1 North Carolina?

2 A. Well, I probably spoke to a few hundred. I

3 don't know, 200 maybe. Oh, spoke to. Because a

4 lot of people you don't reach. So as far as --

5 I called a few hundred. As far as how may I

6 spoke to, maybe under a hundred, but I don't

7 know how many. And then there were many --

8 there were several other people here, and

9 everyone seemed to be having the same

10 experience, which was the people that they

11 reached were not people that should have been on

12 this list as far as how the list was defined.

13 Q. Okay. It -- I'd like to turn to your

14 involvement in this case. How did you learn

15 about this particular case?

16 A. I believe I learned about this particular case

17 when I was called initially by a law student or

18 a lawyer who was working for the Advancement

19 Project.

20 Q. Do you know how they had gotten your name?

21 A. Yes. I believe that my report was referred to

22 them by Democracy North Carolina. One of the

23 employees of Democracy North Carolina told me

24 that she had referred my report to them.

25 Q. And why did you agree to testify in this case?

40

1 A. I think the objective of measuring the impact of

2 these voting law changes is an important one. I

3 believe that free and fair elections with

4 maximum access to the polls by eligible voters

5 is a very good goal, and I think anything that

6 suppresses the vote should be examined very

7 closely.

8 MS. MORRIS: I think that's all I have

9 for now. If you want to go off the record for a

10 break before you begin your questioning, or

11 would -- do you like to just keep going?

12 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't mind a break.

13 MS. MORRIS: I'm sorry.

14 MR. MCKNIGHT: A break is fine with

15 me.

16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at

17 10:51 a.m.

18 (Brief Recess: 10:51 a.m. to 10:58 a.m.)

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

20 10:58 a.m.

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

23 Q. Ms. Schaffer, before we took a break, Ms. Morris

24 was asking you some questions about your

25 experience as a poll watcher and experience in

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41

1 general as a voter, and so I want to continue

2 along those -- those questions and ask you

3 follow-ups on those. I think you testified that

4 before you moved here to North Carolina to be

5 with your kids, that you lived in Pennsylvania;

6 is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And you said that one thing that you liked about

9 North Carolina is that -- is that North Carolina

10 had early voting; is that right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Now, in Pennsylvania, when you lived there, did

13 they have early voting?

14 A. No, they did not.

15 Q. And were you ever involved in any kind of

16 political activities or activities as a -- as a

17 poll watcher or poll observer when you lived in

18 Pennsylvania?

19 A. No, I was not.

20 Q. Well, did you ever talk with other people who

21 voted in Pennsylvania about the voting process

22 or anything like that?

23 A. Not that I recall.

24 Q. Okay. Well, do you remember people having

25 difficulty voting in Pennsylvania without early

42

1 voting?

2 A. Well, there were lines, but I don't know how --

3 but you expected the lines because you would

4 only -- there was only one day to vote, so

5 expectations played into whether people would

6 consider it difficulty or not. I don't recall

7 anybody talking about difficulty.

8 Q. Okay. And you also mentioned the fact that you

9 liked that North Carolina had what we call

10 no-excuse absentee balloting, and you -- you did

11 not have to give an excuse in order to vote an

12 absentee by mail; is that right?

13 A. I don't know that I said I liked it, but I

14 learned about it and I decided to try to see if

15 it was a viable option for the average voter, so

16 we did our own -- my husband and I did our own

17 little experiment.

18 Q. Now, in Pennsylvania, in order to vote an

19 absentee ballot by mail, do you know if you had

20 to have an excuse or not?

21 A. I don't know because I never -- I don't recall

22 ever voting by absentee ballot in Pennsylvania,

23 so I don't know what the requirements were.

24 Q. And you said here in North Carolina when -- when

25 you -- at the time you voted an absentee ballot

43

1 by mail you thought you had to have -- had to

2 have two witnesses; is that right?

3 A. That's the way I interpreted the instruction.

4 Or the alternative was a Notary Public.

5 Q. And were you able to obtain two witnesses or a

6 Notary Public to witness your ballot?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And -- and when you voted, did you have any

11 concerns about the person who or persons who

12 witnessed your ballot seeing your vote?

13 A. I didn't have concerns, but it -- I mean, I

14 don't know if I would call it concerns. It just

15 was awkward. I mean, it wasn't awk- -- my

16 husband was one of my witnesses, so, obviously,

17 I didn't care about him seeing. My neighbor, it

18 wasn't that I cared about it; it's just not what

19 I understand as part of the voting process, plus

20 I -- it was -- as I recall, although I could be

21 confusing this with another election, but as I

22 recall, it was a rather long ballot, and so my

23 neighbor was my witness, so I was conscious of

24 the fact that requiring her to witness my

25 filling out my ballot in the middle of making

44

1 dinner for her children was a bit of an

2 imposition.

3 Q. And were you able to fill out your ballot,

4 though, did you feel like, without your neighbor

5 seeing how you voted?

6 A. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much, yeah. It was

7 just somewhat off-putting. You know, it's a

8 different experience. I also sent a note to the

9 LISTSERV, the neighborhood LISTSERV, suggesting

10 that if people had trouble voting, that the

11 absentee ballot was more, as I understood it,

12 liberal than it used to be, the requirements,

13 and several people responded that the

14 two-witness requirement or a Notary requirement

15 was a difficulty that might make it less

16 attractive to them.

17 Q. Did you keep any of those e-mails that you got?

18 A. Well, my husband accuses me of never deleting

19 any e-mails, so it's possible.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. It's possible. Not definite, but it's possible.

22 Q. Well, would you say several? I mean, how -- how

23 many people are you talking about?

24 A. Oh, two or three.

25 Q. And do you know if those people actually voted

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45

1 or not?

2 A. No, I don't know. I don't even remember who the

3 people were.

4 Q. Looking at this form you completed when you were

5 a poll watcher for Democracy North Carolina --

6 and I'm talking about the -- the only exhibit we

7 have, Exhibit 1 here -- I think you testified

8 earlier that for the most part, you were outside

9 of the precinct; is that right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Now, was -- was there any time in which you were

12 inside of -- of the polling place when you were

13 working as a -- as a poll watcher?

14 A. Yes. Once or twice I went in to get the poll

15 worker that was assigned to curbside voting to

16 let him know that there were curbside voters

17 waiting to be serviced or given service.

18 Q. And why did you do that?

19 A. Why did I do that? To be helpful.

20 Q. Okay. Well, I mean, I think you testified

21 earlier that there was lines for curbside

22 voting; --

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. -- is that right?

25 A. Uh-huh.

46

1 Q. Were there lines the whole time or would it sort

2 of go in spurts; there might be a few cars and

3 then there might not be any cars and then there

4 might be some more? How -- how -- how did that

5 go?

6 A. Curbside voting was somewhat in spurts, although

7 I'm not sure that's the accurate way -- the

8 accurate way to describe it. It -- there wasn't

9 that much curbside voting early in the morning

10 because it's mostly elderly people. I assume

11 they don't get out that early. Once it -- the

12 morning progressed, there was pretty steadily a

13 significant line at curbside voting. The line

14 for regular voting got shorter or longer, but

15 there was always a fairly substantial line --

16 line.

17 Q. Okay. And -- and when you went to talk to the

18 poll worker, though, about the fact that there

19 was someone waiting to vote curbside, was that

20 because there wasn't a line and he -- he wasn't

21 out there seeing that? Is that -- is that -- is

22 that why you had to do that?

23 A. I don't understand your question.

24 Q. Sure. You -- you said you had to go inside and

25 -- and get the -- a person or a poll worker

47

1 responsible for curbside voting. Like, what --

2 why was he unaware that there would -- would

3 have been a -- somebody waiting to vote

4 curbside? Is that because there was no line?

5 A. When he went in --

6 Q. Yeah.

7 A. -- do you mean?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. That may have been the reason once or twice, but

10 I also had the impression that he had more

11 duties than just servicing the curbside voting.

12 So he may have gotten stuck inside doing another

13 duty because it wasn't always because there was

14 no line when he went in, but I think once or

15 twice that was the reason.

16 Q. And when you were inside the polling place, did

17 you have a chance to hear any conversations that

18 were occurring between voters and poll

19 officials?

20 A. No, I did not. I was inside there a very short

21 time. And, in fact, the -- I don't know what

22 the person is called, but the head election

23 worker instructed us to stay a certain distance

24 away from the polls.

25 Q. So the entirety of your experience recorded here

48

1 in Exhibit 1 is based upon things you observed

2 outside of the polling place; is that right?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. All right. And in looking at the first page

5 here, you were talking earlier about the people

6 who were turned away, and I believe you said you

7 -- you thought the majority of those folks were

8 African-American; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And amongst the folks, though, that you saw

11 voting at -- at this particular precinct during

12 the time that you were there on election day,

13 what was the race of -- of -- of those people?

14 A. I believe that the majority was

15 African-American.

16 Q. So if you had been working in a -- in a precinct

17 where -- where the majority of the voters were

18 white, would you expect to see that the majority

19 of the people who were turned away for being at

20 the wrong precinct would be white?

21 MS. MORRIS: Objection. It calls for

22 speculation, but you can answer if you

23 understood.

24 A. Maybe, but I don't know.

25 Q. Well, in -- in this case is -- it doesn't

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1 surprise you that -- that because of the

2 majority of the people who were there voting

3 were African-American, that the majority of the

4 people who were there because -- who were not

5 allowed to vote because they were at the wrong

6 precinct were African-American?

7 A. I guess that's correct. I guess that makes

8 sense.

9 Q. And the times that it says you were at this site

10 as a poll watcher, it says 6:30 a.m. to noon?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. And -- and this was on, like, I guess, November

13 4th of 2014, which was the general election day,

14 right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And did -- I wasn't clear on this point. Did

17 you stay past noon?

18 A. No. Did I say --

19 Q. Well --

20 A. -- I did? I -- I -- I think -- no, I think I

21 left around noon. It may have been, like, 12:10

22 or something like that, but I was only assigned

23 from 6:30 to 10:30 and I -- I left shortly after

24 12:00.

25 Q. And you say that the -- at -- in the bottom of

50

1 the -- the first page of this exhibit, "The

2 voters on the addendum represent only a fraction

3 of the voters that were turned away." How do

4 you know that?

5 A. Well, because there were a not insignificant

6 number of people who did communicate to us that

7 they weren't permitted to vote, so that's what I

8 mean by turned away, and either said they were

9 in too much of a hurry to give us their

10 information or expressed the fact that they

11 didn't give out their name and their phone

12 number. And so -- and so those were just people

13 we talked to, and I have to assume that there

14 were some people that we didn't talk to. So

15 when you add together the people we talked to

16 and who -- who declined to put their names on

17 this list and the assumed other ones that we

18 didn't reach, that's why I think that the ones

19 we talked to only represent a fraction.

20 Q. Now, the ones who declined to put their name on

21 the list either because they were in a hurry or

22 simply didn't want to put their name on this

23 list, did you keep a tally of -- of how many

24 people that was anywhere?

25 A. No.

51

1 Q. So you -- you don't know an exact number?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And amongst the people on this list, if -- if

4 I've added it up correctly, it looks like there

5 are, perhaps, 56 names on this list; is that

6 correct?

7 A. I don't know. I haven't added it up.

8 Q. And -- and -- and I'm just getting that up at

9 the top. There's a number circled and it says,

10 "18, 20, and 18," and I think that equals 56,

11 but I'm -- I'm a lawyer, not an accountant, so I

12 -- I don't know. I don't know.

13 A. I'll take your word for it.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, amongst these -- these

15 people, though, listed on these three pages,

16 Addendum A, Addendum B, Addendum C, can you tell

17 me which of these specific people you actually

18 talked to about their voting experience?

19 A. Well, all of the people whose names are in my

20 handwriting, I talked to. And then I also

21 talked to some of the other people, but I'm not

22 sure which ones because I know that I turned in

23 a report on behalf of myself and my partner, and

24 I don't remember exactly how I got my partner's

25 input because all of these three pages have my

52

1 handwriting on it in some part. So the ones

2 that aren't in my handwriting, I'm not sure what

3 -- it's because my partner got the name or

4 because the people wrote it themselves, but I

5 can go through and tell you the ones that are in

6 my handwriting.

7 Q. If -- if you wouldn't mind doing that, please,

8 ma'am. That -- that may be helpful, and if you

9 want --

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. -- to tell me which ones aren't in your

12 handwriting if that's easier, that -- we could--

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. -- we could do that too.

15 A. Okay. Lisa Renee Sanford is not my handwriting.

16 Michael Curry is not my handwriting. Elizabeth

17 Hill is not my handwriting. Tekisha Graham is

18 not my handwriting. Kathleen Tiu is not my

19 handwriting. Billy Pizzolato is not my

20 handwriting. Now that I'm reading -- the rest

21 of it on that page is in my handwriting. Now

22 that I'm reading that over, I suspect those were

23 -- those first one, two, three, four, five, six

24 that I mentioned are ones that were collected by

25 my partner because I think she was more in the

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1 habit of letting them write their name and

2 number down and I was more in the habit of

3 attempting to write it down myself unless it was

4 a complicated name which I had trouble spelling.

5 Q. Well, let -- and let me -- let me stop you for a

6 minute. You mentioned your partner several

7 times. Who was that?

8 A. I don't remember her name. I think her first

9 name was Della.

10 Q. And was she somebody who had also volunteered

11 with Democracy North Carolina?

12 A. Yes, she was.

13 Q. And you don't remember any other information

14 about her like where she was from or anything

15 like that?

16 A. Well, she was from Durham and I don't remember

17 anything else.

18 Q. All right. And -- and so on -- on this list

19 from Cynthia Robinson through Frank McLean,

20 you're saying all of those were in your

21 handwriting? And I'm looking at Addendum A,

22 which would be --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. All of those are my handwriting.

54

1 Q. And so you would have personally spoken with all

2 of those people?

3 A. Yes. That's correct.

4 Q. And you believe that all of those people were

5 told that they could not vote at the Durham

6 Public Library because they were in the wrong

7 precinct?

8 A. Yes. I know that that -- well, that's -- I know

9 that that's what they said they were told.

10 Q. Okay. And but you weren't present for any of

11 the conversations they had with poll workers?

12 A. No, I was not.

13 Q. And so your knowledge is only based upon what

14 they told you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. But they were all very upset when they told me.

18 I mean, they -- they -- almost to a person were

19 very upset.

20 Q. Okay. And looking at Addendum B, which is --

21 it's been Bates numbered page 6428 at the

22 bottom, --

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. -- which of these voters are in your

25 handwriting?

55

1 A. I believe most of them were. The ones that I

2 can identify that are not in my handwriting, I

3 think Ricky Sampson is not my handwriting,

4 although his phone number is in my handwriting.

5 Also with Angelia Snipes, it looks like she

6 wrote her first name and I wrote her last name

7 and her telephone number, and I don't know why

8 that happened. In the case of Tara Skelly, she

9 wrote her name. I -- I wrote her phone number.

10 Marcia Taylor clearly wrote her own name and

11 phone number. Everything else is in my

12 handwriting.

13 Q. And so which of these people do you think you

14 personally spoke with?

15 A. I think I personally spoke to all of them

16 because -- because with the exception of Marcia

17 Taylor, either the name -- either the whole

18 thing is in my handwriting or part of the entry

19 for the person is in my handwriting, so I

20 suspect this was a page that I was completing,

21 and so I'm certain of everyone except, perhaps,

22 Marcia Taylor, but I'm pretty sure that I spoke

23 to all these people.

24 Q. And do you believe that all of them told you

25 that they were unable to vote because they were

56

1 at the wrong precinct?

2 A. I am certain that all of them told me that they

3 were unable to vote because they were told they

4 were at the wrong precinct. They didn't say

5 they were at the wrong precinct. They said they

6 were told that they were at the wrong precinct.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Many of them thought that they were at the right

9 precinct.

10 Q. Okay. And with respect to this last page here,

11 Addendum C at the top, which of these names are

12 names that you -- you personally recorded?

13 A. I believe these were all recorded by me except

14 it looks like some of the hand- -- some of the

15 phone numbers might have been provided by the

16 voters. I may have handed the clipboard over

17 for them to write their phone number because the

18 handwriting for a few of the phone numbers looks

19 like it might not be mine. Or I might have just

20 been getting tired. But I -- I think some of --

21 some of the handwriting for the phone numbers is

22 mine, but some of them -- some of it looks like

23 it might not be. For instance, Rosa Keemer,

24 that doesn't look like my writing, but as -- as

25 -- similarly, the one under that, Antuan Spivey,

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1 does not look like my writing.

2 Q. Do you know if your partner did any of those?

3 A. I don't think so because the name -- the write-

4 -- the handwriting for the name itself looks

5 like my handwriting, although I have no idea why

6 sometimes I printed and sometimes that I wrote

7 it in script.

8 Q. And for these people, were all -- all of these

9 people people who indicated that they were

10 unable to vote at the -- at the precinct you

11 were serving as a poll watcher at?

12 A. Yes, they were.

13 Q. Okay. And I see one name crossed off here.

14 It's Constance, and I -- I can't make -- it's --

15 Evans is the last name.

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Do you know the reason why that name is crossed

18 off?

19 A. I don't know for sure, but I can say that

20 probably it was one of two things, either she

21 misunderstood what we were asking her, and in

22 discussing it further, revealed that she -- no,

23 I don't know why. No, that wouldn't have been

24 it. It could be because she said she didn't

25 want to be contacted, but I -- I'm not sure.

58

1 Q. And do you know if any of these people ever were

2 contacted after you spoke with them or your

3 partner spoke with them on election day to see

4 if they had voted?

5 A. I have no idea.

6 Q. Okay. And you don't personally know whether

7 these people later voted at another precinct, do

8 you?

9 A. I have no idea about any specific one, but I do

10 recall that many of them said they no longer had

11 time to vote. But whether they later found the

12 time to vote, I -- I can't -- I can't know that.

13 Q. And you didn't document anywhere on -- on this

14 form or anywhere else where any of the specific

15 people who told you that they no longer had the

16 time to vote?

17 A. I don't believe so, but I remember one person in

18 particular who had ridden the bus with her son

19 who was also a registered voter and had taken

20 two buses to get to the poll, and she was very

21 upset that they wouldn't let her and her son

22 vote, and I turned to see if I could get her

23 help to get to the proper precinct, and then I

24 got wrapped up in some other question that came

25 up, and when I went to find her, she was no

59

1 longer there, but she expressed the -- that she

2 didn't know how to get a public bus to the

3 precinct to which she was assigned.

4 Q. And who was that?

5 A. I -- I said she wasn't someone whose name I

6 captured. When I turned to capture her name,

7 she was no longer there. But she was, of the

8 people that I talked to, probably the most upset

9 because she had worked so hard to get to the

10 polls.

11 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and after your brief

12 conversation with her, she just went away, or?

13 A. Well, because I got -- there was a lot of

14 confusion, so I got pulled away to address

15 another person's concern and also because I was

16 going to try and find her a ride, and so I was

17 distracted for maybe five minutes and -- or

18 maybe less, but at least several minutes, and

19 when I went back to find her, she wasn't there.

20 Q. All right. And -- and you said that voters on

21 this list here -- and I'm just looking at the

22 first page -- were turned away after waiting 20

23 to 60 minutes?

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. How did you calculate the wait time for these

60

1 voters?

2 A. I believe that we asked them how long that they

3 had -- that they had been waiting as part of

4 what we asked them when they came out.

5 Q. But you didn't record that anywhere?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And so your -- your estimate of the time that

8 voters waited, where does that come from?

9 A. It comes from my recollection that was recorded

10 within an hour of finishing my shift.

11 Q. And do you know how many of these voters on this

12 list or these three lists that we've looked at,

13 do you know whether all of them had to wait in

14 order to vote or whether it was just some of

15 them, or how many had to wait in order to vote?

16 A. All of them had to wait because the line never

17 went away.

18 Q. And so was there a -- a line when you arrived

19 there in the morning?

20 A. Yes, there was.

21 Q. Okay. But in terms of -- of calculating the --

22 the wait time, you're relying solely upon what

23 the voters told you; is that right?

24 A. I believe so. I believe so. It might have been

25 re- -- reinforced by our observations of the

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1 length of the line, which we could see from the

2 location at which we were interviewing people.

3 Q. And when you're looking at the length of a line,

4 how do you calculate how long it is? How -- if

5 you did it all, how -- how were you able to

6 assess that?

7 A. You mean how long it was in terms of the length

8 of the wait?

9 Q. Yeah. How -- how did you determine how long

10 somebody would've had to wait in line? Because

11 I know you said you were outside the precinct

12 and you didn't see what was going on inside the

13 precinct, so you wouldn't know exactly when

14 someone was able to actually get a ballot and go

15 vote and that sort of thing. How -- how were

16 you able to do that?

17 A. It was a combination of the length of the line,

18 our -- our observations of the length of the

19 line and what we were told by the voters. So in

20 the beginning, they were all saying 45 minutes

21 and the length of the line was to the end of the

22 sidewalk. And then late -- at some point in

23 midmorning, they were saying 20 minutes and the

24 length of the line was about half that long. At

25 some point in time, it extended beyond the

62

1 length of the sidewalk. So it was as a result

2 of the cor- -- of a correlation between what

3 they told us and our observations of the length

4 of the line.

5 Q. And -- and do you know how many people were in

6 line at any particular point during the day?

7 Did you ever count the number --

8 A. No.

9 Q. -- of people in line?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, I believe you testified earlier and -- and

12 you wrote on page 2 of this document that the

13 poll workers did seem to give the address of the

14 correct precinct to most of the voters who were

15 turned away; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's correct, but many of the people

17 either didn't trust that it was the right

18 address because they had just been through the

19 experience of being told that they were at the

20 wrong precinct, so they either had doubts as to

21 whether it was correct, or they were in such a

22 state of confusion or didn't have anything to

23 write the -- the precinct to record the number

24 of the precinct, that by the time they got out

25 to us, they didn't know.

63

1 So one of the things we were doing and one

2 of the reasons that I think we didn't capture

3 all the names is because we were accessing the

4 State Board of Election Web site on our

5 smartphones and confirming, or in the case where

6 people had no idea, telling people which

7 precinct to go to.

8 Q. Okay. So you -- you had the ability to do that

9 outside the precinct? You had the ability to

10 look up where people were supposed to vote?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And -- and you would help people do that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And amongst the people who came out and told you

15 that they had been told to go to a different

16 precinct and -- and said, "I'm not sure; I'd --

17 I'd like you to verify that," were -- were they

18 given the correct information?

19 A. Yes, I believe. In -- I can't recall any

20 situation in which they were not given the

21 correct information.

22 Q. And I think you said you thought that the fact

23 that the -- the Durham Library location that you

24 were at had started as an early voting location

25 may have caused some of the confusion about the

64

1 -- what the -- whether -- amongst people about

2 whether that was their correct polling place; is

3 that right?

4 A. Someone suggested to me that that was po- -- a

5 possible explanation. But when I tried to

6 determine through questioning the voters whether

7 that was the case, I didn't get information to

8 confirm that theory.

9 Q. Okay. And -- and you said that -- that many

10 voters said they had been voting at this

11 precinct for years. Do you know whether they

12 meant they had been voting there early for years

13 or that they had been voting there on election

14 day for years?

15 A. Most of them seemed to think they had been there

16 on election day for years. But as I said, I

17 didn't get anyone who said, "Oh, yeah, in the

18 past I guess it was early voting when I voted

19 here." No one confirm -- no one that I recall

20 said that.

21 Q. And did you specifically ask that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And they -- they said -- they would say

24 no?

25 A. "No, I voted here on election day."

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1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I mean, most -- yeah, because I wanted to see if

3 that was -- I wanted to unearth the cause of

4 this con- -- vast confusion that existed, and so

5 that's why I would ask, "Well, are you sure that

6 the last time you voted here it wasn't during

7 early voting," and I don't recall anyone who

8 said, "Yes, that's why I voted here in the

9 past."

10 Q. I think you said someone suggested that --

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. -- to you, though?

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. Was that someone who would vote, or was it --

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. It -- when I called Democracy North Carolina to

18 find out what to do about this confusion, he

19 suggested that it might be because I was at a

20 location that somewhat unusually served as both

21 an early voting location and a -- an election

22 day precinct.

23 Q. And do you know how many people on this list

24 told you that they had voted at this precinct on

25 election day before 2014?

66

1 A. I think almost all of them, but I -- I -- I'm

2 not certain of that, but my impression is almost

3 all of them.

4 Q. But you didn't make any notation about --

5 A. No, I didn't. No, I did not.

6 Q. So you -- you can't say for sure?

7 A. No, I cannot say for sure. But I can say for

8 sure that most of them did. I just don't know

9 which ones did and which ones didn't, but I can

10 say most of them did.

11 Q. Now, you also testified that after the election,

12 is this right, that you worked a phone bank for

13 Democracy North Carolina that was aimed at

14 getting people to talk about their experience

15 voting in 2014; is that right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. When was that?

18 A. I never worked a phone bank getting people to

19 talk about their experience. I work -- work --

20 worked a phone bank that was aimed at contacting

21 people who had been identified as needing to get

22 a state-approved voter i.d.'s --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- to assist them in getting those i.d.'s

25 Q. Okay. So -- so you were calling people who

67

1 showed up on a -- on a list as -- as telling a

2 polling official in 2014 that they did not have

3 a state-approved voter i.d.; is that right?

4 A. They showed up on a list that was purported to

5 be people who told election officials that.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. And that list was provided by the Board of

8 Elections to us.

9 Q. And by us, you mean Democracy North Carolina,

10 right?

11 A. That's my understanding.

12 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and how many -- how long

13 did you participate in -- in that phone bank? I

14 think you said that you -- you participated in

15 one at Democracy North Carolina? Then you had

16 one at your house; is --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many hours did you do the one at Democracy

21 North Carolina?

22 A. I think maybe two hours at Democracy North

23 Carolina, and then another couple -- another

24 hour or hour and a half that same evening I

25 finished up the list that I had started there,

68

1 and then maybe another two or three hours at my

2 home the next evening.

3 Q. And you said you hosted a phone bank at your

4 home. Does that mean other people were calling?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. How many people?

7 A. Three other people showed up.

8 Q. Okay. And how long did you make calls for?

9 A. Two or three hours. It started at 5:00, and I

10 think we finished up at 8:00.

11 Q. And it was your impression from that experience

12 that most of the people who were on that list

13 did, in fact, have an acceptable i.d. that they

14 could use to vote in 2016?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. And did you speak to anyone who did not, in

17 fact, have a photo i.d. that they needed to vote

18 or will need to vote in -- in 2016?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. How many people would you say that was?

21 A. Over the three periods of time that I called

22 people, which was -- in fact, I don't think it

23 was two consecutive days. I think it was a

24 Thursday and then the following Monday, so it

25 was the Thursday afternoon, Thursday night and

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69

1 Monday night. Over that time period, I would

2 estimate that I spoke to less than five people

3 that needed i.d.'s.

4 Q. And when someone told you that they needed an

5 i.d., what did you do with that information?

6 A. I asked them if I -- I asked follow-up questions

7 such as, "Do you have a birth certificate?"

8 That was the main question. And then I

9 identified them on the list as a person needing

10 an i.d. and -- and I turned that list in with

11 the assumption that those people would be

12 followed up with.

13 Q. Okay. But you didn't follow up with them

14 yourself?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. And amongst those you said -- I think you said

17 less than five indicated that they did not have

18 an i.d. that would be acceptable to vote in

19 2016. Did all of those folks seem to have a

20 document or documents that they would need in

21 order to obtain an i.d. to vote in 2016?

22 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe that all of

23 them did, but I don't recall how many did and

24 how many didn't. But it's my impression that

25 not all of them did.

70

1 Q. But you can't remember how many did or didn't?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. And you didn't keep copies of -- of -- of

4 those records either?

5 A. No. I turned them in.

6 Q. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about your

7 background, your personal background, and I

8 think Ms. Morris got into -- into that a little

9 bit. Here in the community it sounds like you

10 -- you parti- -- you -- you work with or

11 participate in activities with Democracy North

12 Carolina on occasion; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. What other activities are you involved

15 with -- with -- with Democracy North Carolina?

16 A. No, no continuous activities. It's kind of --

17 like, I'll get an e-mail now and then that

18 they're doing a phone bank or something like

19 that and I will, if I have the time, respond to

20 it and participate, but, as I said, now and

21 then.

22 Q. And before 2014, did you have any involvement

23 with Democracy North Carolina?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Okay. And what led you to get involved with

71

1 Democracy North Carolina?

2 A. Well, I had been involved with You Can Vote, and

3 when the 2014 election was approaching -- was

4 coming up, I asked people in You Can Vote what

5 organization I could contact because I wanted to

6 do something on election day. And it was

7 someone in You Can Vote that referred me to

8 Democracy North Carolina. So it's only -- the

9 first time I had any contact with Democracy

10 North Carolina was a few weeks before election

11 on 2- -- in 2014.

12 Q. And by election day 2014, you're speaking of the

13 general election only; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And with respect to the -- the sort of

16 experiment it sounds like your -- you and your

17 husband did on -- with absentee ballot, was that

18 in the -- was that in the primary of 2014?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Okay. And what -- what led you to decide to try

21 that?

22 A. Well, with -- the people involved in You Can

23 Vote who are involved with registering people

24 were also examining the new election law, and

25 some people thought that some of the denial of

72

1 access to the vote of people who didn't have

2 voter i.d.'s, state-issued voter i.d.'s, could

3 be remedied by no-excuse absentee ballots, and I

4 was skeptical about that. And so my husband and

5 I completely on our own decided why don't we

6 apply for an absentee ballot and see what the

7 experience is like, and I told you what our

8 experience was.

9 Q. And I think you said your experience was is that

10 you were ultimately able to vote by mailing

11 absentee ballot, right?

12 A. Yes, we were.

13 Q. And your husband was as well?

14 A. Yes, we were.

15 Q. And other than that experiment with respect to

16 mailing absentee ballots, have you had any other

17 experience with mailing absentee ballots?

18 A. No, I don't think I've ever voted absentee

19 ballot before, but one of our other obser- --

20 observations was that we both have advanced

21 degrees and we thought it was a little bit

22 challenging to make sure we dotted all the I's

23 and crossed all the T's, and so we had no way of

24 knowing whether our ballot would be rejected if

25 we didn't cross all the T's and dot all the I's,

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1 but it also led us to speculate whether someone

2 without the education that we had would be more

3 -- particularly someone in advanced years would

4 be more challenged than we were in voting

5 through absentee ballot.

6 Q. Well, in -- in thinking about that process, I

7 understand what -- what you need to do and what

8 you probably did first was you had to fill out

9 an absentee ballot request form; is that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And do you remember doing that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And do you remember having trouble filling out

14 that form?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Okay. And what -- what trouble did you have

17 filling out the absentee ballot request form?

18 A. I don't remember about specifics, but I remember

19 that the questions were ambiguous. And, again,

20 wanting to do it exactly right, I remember not

21 knowing exactly what information they were

22 looking for. And at one point I was with a

23 group of three other people from You Can Vote

24 because we at -- were trying to get people to

25 fill out absentee ballot requests, so we wanted

74

1 to go through the form and make sure that we

2 knew what each question was asking for. And we

3 couldn't figure it out, and -- and these are

4 people with even more advanced degrees than I

5 have. And so on several of the questions we

6 called this -- I don't know if we called the

7 local Board of Elections or the State Board of

8 Elections to try and determine what information

9 was being sought by a particular question, but I

10 don't remember which questions those were.

11 Q. Okay. So -- so you -- you don't remember which

12 questions that were confusing over others?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I do remember that it was a fairly long form.

16 It wasn't a -- a simple form.

17 Q. Okay. And so you called, you said, either the

18 state or local Board of Elections and you asked

19 your questions?

20 A. I didn't call. Another person called.

21 Q. Okay. And that -- that other person was with

22 You Can Vote?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were they able to get their questions

25 answered, if you know?

75

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And so after that, and I guess just

3 thinking kind of about your personal experience,

4 you completed the form, though?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you mailed it in; is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And sometime later you got a absentee ballot in

9 the mail; is that right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And then you said you got your husband to

12 witness your ballot and then you went and got

13 your next-door neighbor to a witness -- be a

14 witness as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I guess he or she also witnessed your

17 husband's --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- ballot? Okay. And you were also able to --

20 you mailed that ballot after you completed it?

21 A. I think we took it over to the Board of

22 Elections --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- is what I recall because I have a visual of

25 handing it to the administrative assistant at

76

1 the Board of Elections.

2 Q. Now, after you received your ballot, was there

3 anything that was complicated or confusing about

4 that process?

5 A. There were just a lot of instructions, and I

6 don't remember what -- what they were, but it --

7 again, wanting to make my vote count, it just

8 made me nervous that what if I didn't follow one

9 of these instructions when my votes will be

10 counted? So but I don't remember what they

11 were. But my husband and I both checked each

12 other to make sure that we had done it properly.

13 Q. And did you say that was the first time you had

14 voted absentee ballot since you'd been voting by

15 mail?

16 A. Yes, it was.

17 Q. Okay. And -- and do you feel like you would be

18 able to vote absentee ballot by mail again?

19 A. Certainly it would be more comfortable the

20 second time than it was the first time.

21 Q. Okay. And I think you said with the You Can

22 Vote organization -- is that -- is that

23 organization affiliated with any other group or

24 organization?

25 A. I think they might be, but I don't know what

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77

1 their legal structure is, but they are a

2 nonpartisan organization that primarily

3 registers voters, both Democratic, Republican

4 and independent.

5 Q. And are they located just here in Durham or are

6 they a national organization or a state

7 organization?

8 A. I think we're just located here in Durham,

9 although we're -- although people in the

10 steering committee are starting to train people

11 who want to lead voter registration drives in

12 other parts of the state.

13 Q. Okay. I think you said that -- that You Can

14 Vote is how you got linked up with Democracy

15 North Carolina; is that right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Okay. So somebody recommended -- somebody from

18 You Can Vote recommended that you get involved

19 with Democracy North Carolina?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Okay. And are there any other organizations

22 that you're involved with politically? Are you

23 involved with any political campaigns or

24 anything like that?

25 A. No, not currently.

78

1 Q. Well, I guess in two-thou- -- thinking back to

2 2014 or -- or before then, were you -- were you

3 ever in- -- involved with any presidential

4 campaign or anything like that?

5 A. Well, there wasn't a presidential campaign in

6 2014.

7 Q. Well, think -- yeah, thinking about, I guess,

8 even before then, to 2012, for example, were you

9 involved with any campaign?

10 MS. MORRIS: Objection to relevance.

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Okay. And -- and what campaign was that?

13 A. I was involved in the presidential campaign, and

14 I volunteered for President Obama.

15 Q. Okay. And in -- and in 2014 we had a Senate

16 race here in North Carolina. Were you involved

17 in that Senate race in any way?

18 A. No, I was not. I was only involved in

19 nonpartisan efforts to registered voters.

20 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and, I mean -- and would

21 you say that you -- you personally, politically,

22 are you a Democrat or a Republican?

23 A. I'm a Democrat.

24 Q. Okay. And are you otherwise politically

25 involved in any sort of efforts to oppose voter

79

1 i.d. laws or anything like that?

2 A. I occasionally attend meetings of people who

3 discuss some of the issues related to the laws,

4 but no formal efforts.

5 Q. And -- and -- and what sorts of meetings are

6 those?

7 A. I think that they're primarily organized by

8 Democracy North Carolina, but it involves groups

9 from other -- primarily other nonpartisan groups

10 who are trying to expand access to the vote and

11 are exploring ways to do that, which -- which

12 are not partisan. You know, it's just a way to

13 make registration easier for everybody.

14 Q. And do you know the name of that group or

15 coalition that you're referring to?

16 A. No, I don't know the name. I don't know the

17 name. I've been to a few meetings.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Maybe three, four meetings over a period of time

20 of people who are talking about expanding voter

21 registration access.

22 Q. Is it just voter registration, or is it actual

23 voting or all of those things, or?

24 A. It's primarily voter registration. We have also

25 discussed but haven't done much, but have

80

1 discussed ways of expanding the definition of

2 student i.d.'s in line with efforts of I believe

3 it's representative Hall, Larry Hall, who

4 recently introduced a bill to expand the

5 definition of student i.d.'s, and we've

6 discussed how we might support those efforts as

7 well, but not much has been done along those

8 lines.

9 Q. And have you discussed those efforts with

10 representative Hall?

11 A. I -- I believe some people from this group have,

12 but I have not personally and he has not

13 attended any of these meetings.

14 Q. Okay. I want to -- I want to show you a

15 document. Ms. Schaffer, do you have a Facebook

16 account?

17 A. Yeah, I do.

18 Q. Okay. I want to show you a document here and

19 see if you recognize this, and we can just label

20 it as Exhibit 2.

21 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 2 was marked for

22 identification.)

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

24 Q. I don't know. Is -- is -- is this your Facebook

25 account?

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1 A. It appears to be.

2 Q. Okay. And this appears to be your picture here

3 in Exhibit 2, and -- and -- and there's some

4 organizations here and some items that are

5 listed under Favorites. Do you see those?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are those -- are those organizations or items

8 that -- that -- that you've selected as -- as

9 some of your favorites there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. And -- and which -- which of those are

12 not organizations or items that -- that you --

13 you had selected as -- as -- as -- as favorites?

14 A. I'm not aware of the function on Facebook of

15 selecting favorites. I don't recall ever doing

16 that. I didn't know it existed.

17 Q. Okay. And -- and, I mean, have you ever joined

18 any of these groups on Facebook? I see there's

19 a group called Americans Against the Republican

20 Party.

21 A. No, I have not.

22 Q. Women for Obama?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Kay Hagan for Senate?

25 A. I didn't know that was a group, but I may have

82

1 endorsed -- you know, I may have said something

2 on Facebook to endorse Kay Hagan, but I don't

3 recall joining a group.

4 Q. Okay. I mean, do you -- do you --

5 A. Some of these organizations I never heard of,

6 many of them.

7 Q. Okay. Are -- are -- are --

8 A. And I certainly am not fond of Biscuitville

9 except that my daughter's dog was in a contest

10 for Biscuitville, so that may be why that's on

11 there.

12 Q. Are you familiar with the feature on Facebook

13 where you like certain things?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Do you think you may have liked any of

16 these groups, organizations at any point in

17 time?

18 A. Well, I certainly would have liked Chasing Ice

19 and Rachel Maddow. And I don't recall liking

20 these other things, but it's certainly possible

21 that I did for some of these people, some of

22 these organizations or people.

23 Q. And -- and one of them I saw is -- is one called

24 Court Rejects Texas Voter I.D. Law. Have --

25 have you been following what's going on in the

83

1 -- with respect to the Texas voter i.d. law?

2 A. I try to, but there have been so man- -- I have

3 been attempting to follow it, but there have

4 been so many disparate opinions, that -- that I

5 am having a hard time figuring out where the

6 courts are going with this.

7 Q. And when did you first become aware that North

8 Carolina had -- had passed a law that -- that

9 we're here talking about today, which is the law

10 -- it's often called Session Law 2013-381 VIVA,

11 some people call it. It includes voter i.d. but

12 also changes to early voting, same-day

13 registration, out-of-precinct voting that we've

14 talked about. When did you become aware that

15 that law had been passed?

16 A. I think I became aware of it immediately after

17 it was passed, which I think was in probably

18 early 2013, but I'm not sure. I'm sure I became

19 aware of it immediately after it was passed

20 because I pay attention to current events, and

21 I'm very concerned about voting access, so I

22 particularly pay attention to laws about that,

23 as you noted, not only North Carolina, but in

24 other states as well.

25 Q. And since that law passed, have -- have you

84

1 spoken with anybody at the General Assembly

2 about that law or -- or even before it was

3 passed, did -- did -- did you have any

4 conversations with anybody at the General

5 Assembly while it was being considered?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. No -- no conversation with anybody at the

8 General Assembly at all about the law?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I don't recall ever having a conversation with

12 anyone in the General Assembly.

13 Q. And have -- have you ever participated in the

14 Moral Monday events or anything like that?

15 A. Not specifically, not Moral Monday events, but

16 events. We participated in HJ1K one year.

17 Q. Okay. And I think it might be called HK on J or

18 something; --

19 A. Thank you.

20 Q. -- is that right? Okay.

21 A. Thank you.

22 Q. All right. Do you remember what year -- what

23 year that was -- that was?

24 A. 2014.

25 Q. Okay. And that was something organized by the

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1 North Carolina NAACP?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of that event?

4 A. I think that the purpose was to support various

5 causes related to justice in North Carolina,

6 including voting but other issues as well.

7 Q. And was there any mention of the law that we've

8 been here talking about today, VIVA or the voter

9 i.d. law, anything like that?

10 A. I'm sure there was.

11 Q. Okay. And was that rally generally to oppose

12 that law and those efforts to require voter i.d.

13 and --

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Now, Ms. Morris asked you a little bit about how

16 you first heard of this lawsuit, and I believe

17 that you said someone from the Advancement

18 Project had talked to you; is that right?

19 A. Yes. I mean, I was aware that there were

20 several lawsuits challenging the law, but I

21 wasn't familiar with the parties to the

22 lawsuits. So I would have -- so I would have to

23 say the first time I was aware of this specific

24 one was when I got called.

25 Q. Okay. And when -- when did someone with the

86

1 Advancement Project first contact you to let you

2 know that there was a -- a lawsuit filed?

3 A. I would say a few months ago.

4 Q. And how many conversations would you say you had

5 with someone with the Advancement Project about

6 these lawsuits?

7 A. Substantive conversations, I recall two. Then

8 there were a few conversations that were, like,

9 administrative, confirming that I was available

10 on certain dates and things like that.

11 Q. Okay. And did you speak with Donita Judge, or

12 was there someone else at Advancement Project

13 you spoke with?

14 A. I spoke to Donita Judge, but I think that most

15 of the -- of -- a few times. I don't recall

16 that many of those conversations were

17 substantive. I think they were the more

18 administrative ones, and I spoke to two other

19 people prior to that. There might have been a

20 short substantive conversation with Donita

21 Judge. I'm not certain.

22 Q. Do you remember anything Ms. Judge would have

23 shared with you about -- about the lawsuits and

24 what --

25 A. No. Primarily she was asking me questions about

87

1 my experience. She on- -- the only thing she

2 would have shared with me about the lawsuits was

3 that the trial was going to be in July and

4 that's when we discussed that I was going to be

5 out of the state for most of July.

6 Q. I see. And -- and other than Ms. Judge at

7 Advancement Project, have you spoken with anyone

8 at Kirkland & Ellis about the lawsuit or any

9 other lawyer about these lawsuits?

10 A. Not until a day or two ago.

11 Q. Okay. And was that just to prepare for your

12 deposition today?

13 A. To make the arrangements to prepare and, you

14 know, to arrange for a brief preparations.

15 Q. And do you recall anything specifically you were

16 told about these lawsuits and those preparation

17 sessions?

18 A. I recall being told that you were a pretty nice,

19 straightforward guy.

20 Q. Oh, I bet -- I bet they told you to say that.

21 No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Well, I'm -- I'm

22 glad to hear that.

23 MS. MORRIS: I'd like to put on the

24 record that Mr. McKnight is slightly blushing at

25 the time.

88

1 MR. MCKNIGHT: That's why the camera

2 is not on me, at least I hope not.

3 A. I was told to answer the questions truthfully.

4 Q. What --

5 A. I was told a little bit about the themes.

6 Q. Okay. What -- what were the themes of the

7 lawsuit you were told about?

8 A. Well, I was told that the state's position is

9 that it's not discriminating against minorities;

10 it's just discriminating against Democrats.

11 Q. Okay. And who told you that?

12 A. Ms. Morris.

13 Q. Okay. Did she elaborate on that at all?

14 A. Not much. I think it was pretty

15 self-explanatory.

16 Q. And -- and -- and in terms of discussing that --

17 A. Well, the only elaboration was that she said

18 that the theme seemed to be that -- that all the

19 parties seek --

20 (Telephone interruption.)

21 MS. MORRIS: I don't think anyone's on

22 this.

23 THE WITNESS: Is anyone on the line?

24 MS. MORRIS: I think there's not a

25 line.

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1 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. That -- that --

2 that's all right.

3 A. That all parties -- that the -- one of the

4 themes seems to be that all parties try to

5 prevent people from voting when they're in

6 power, and that this law is being justified on

7 that basis. That's what -- that's really all

8 that I -- I recall. It wasn't a very long

9 meeting.

10 Q. I'll just look through my notes and see if

11 there's anything that I missed and hopefully not

12 keep you any longer here than we need to.

13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You want to go off

14 record, or you --

15 MR. MCKNIGHT: I don't think I have

16 any further questions for Ms. Schaffer at this

17 time.

18 MS. MORRIS: I just have a couple more

19 unless you need a break. I don't think it will

20 go very long.

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MS. MORRIS:

23 Q. Going back, Mr. McKnight pointed your attention

24 to your statement that there is a fraction of

25 voters that are accounted for in Addendum A, and

90

1 I believe you said that some people were

2 unwilling to give their information or were, you

3 know, in a hurry and couldn't?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Was there anyone who was unable or turned away

6 at the polls that you spoke with before you

7 started preparing this list?

8 A. Could you ask me that again?

9 Q. So earlier you talked about taking surveys of

10 individuals?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is there anyone that you spoke with while you

13 were taking the survey that was unable to vote

14 or turned away at the precinct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were all of the people that you spoke with while

17 you were taking that survey captured on Addendum

18 A?

19 A. I think so but I'm not certain, but there were

20 people during that time period also who didn't

21 have time to talk to us or didn't want to take

22 the survey. But all the people that took the

23 survey I believe -- I'm not a hundred percent

24 certain, but I believe I transferred those names

25 to these lists. Not all the people who took the

91

1 survey, but all the people who took the survey

2 and said they were unable to vote I transferred

3 onto this list.

4 Q. Now, who provided you with this specific form?

5 A. Democracy North Carolina.

6 Q. And was it part of your training to fill out

7 incident reports?

8 A. I believe so.

9 Q. And did your partner also attend a training by

10 Democracy North Carolina?

11 A. I think she did.

12 Q. And you took these names down as you were

13 talking with voters?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you completed the report, you said, within

16 an hour of returning or completing your shift?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you identified only about six names that

19 were in your partner's handwriting on the first

20 sheet and some that were in some combination of

21 your or the person's handwriting on the

22 remaining sheet?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how do you know --

25 A. No. I didn't say they were in my partner's

92

1 handwriting. I said that they -- I believe they

2 were in the handwriting of the per- -- of the

3 person whose name is listed and that I think

4 perhaps that's the way my partner was gathering

5 names, by giving the clipboard to them and

6 having them put their own name and number down.

7 Q. Got it. And were you present when your partner

8 was giving the clipboard to other people?

9 A. Yes. We were within five to ten feet of each

10 other.

11 Q. Okay. So you walked and were present while she

12 was collecting names of people who had been

13 turned away as well?

14 A. Yes, and in some cases, could overhear as well

15 as see.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MS. MORRIS: That's all I have.

18 EXAMINATION

19 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

20 Q. I know we're running out of tape here, but so I

21 -- I'll -- I'll be really quick here. What --

22 on the -- on election day when you were

23 conducting these surveys, how many people total

24 would you say you spoke with?

25 A. I don't know exactly what you mean by spoke

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1 with.

2 Q. Well, I -- I think you said you were surveying

3 voters about their experience voting generally,

4 and that -- that's where you ran across the name

5 of these people who -- who said that they had --

6 were told that they were in the wrong precinct.

7 How many people total would you say that you had

8 interactions with, including those who -- who

9 said had no problem voting; they're all people

10 who gave me commentary about their experience

11 but were able to vote and then you, of course,

12 have these people. How -- how many -- how many

13 would you say that would be?

14 A. I think any answer I gave would be a guess.

15 Q. Okay. All right. Fair enough. And you said

16 the -- for the people you spoke with who had

17 issues voting or were in the wrong precinct

18 before this, you -- do you know how many people

19 that would be?

20 A. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble focusing on your

21 question. It might just be that I'm getting

22 tired.

23 Q. Sure.

24 A. I'm not sure if it's that or -- or your

25 question's a little vague, so --

94

1 Q. Sure.

2 A. -- you want to try again?

3 Q. Sure. Sure. You said you spoke with some

4 people before you started compiling a list of

5 names of folks who said that they had been told

6 they were in the wrong precinct. Do you know

7 how many people you spoke with before you

8 started compiling this list of names?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. All right.

11 MR. MCKNIGHT: I don't think I have

12 any further questions for Ms. Schaffer.

13 MS. MORRIS: I don't either.

14 MR. MCKNIGHT: Can we get --

15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

16 deposition of Ms. Susan Schaffer. The time

17 going off record is 12:07 p.m.

18 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]

19 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 12:07 P.M.]

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21

22

23

24

25

95

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, SUSAN SCHAFFER, declare under the

4 penalties of perjury under the State of North

5 Carolina that I have read the foregoing 94 pages,

6 which contain a correct transcription of answers made

7 by me to the questions therein recorded, with the

8 exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the

9 correction sheet attached hereto, if any.

10 Signed this the day of , 2015.

11

12

13 SUSAN SCHAFFER

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

96

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: North Carolina State Conference of the

3 NAACP, et al., v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory,

4 et al.; League of Women Voters of North

5 Carolina, et al. v. The State of North

6 Carolina, et al.; United States of

7 America v. The State of North Carolina,

8 et al.

9 Witness Name: Susan Schaffer

10 Deposition Date: May 8, 2015

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12 Page/Line Reads Should Read

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24

25 Signature Date

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97

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF JOHNSTON )3

I, TAMMY JOHNSON, Court Reporter and4

Notary Public, the officer before whom the5

foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby6

certify that the witness(es) whose testimony7

appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn8

by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were9

taken by me to the best of my ability and10

thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and11

that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a12

true and accurate transcription of the testimony of13

the witness(es).14

I do further certify that I am neither15

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the16

parties to this action, and further, that I am not17

a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel18

employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or19

otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.20

This the 18th day of May 2015.21

22

Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M23 Notary Public #2001156008024

25

Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-54 Filed 07/08/15 Page 25 of 25

General Information

Court United States District Court for the Middle District of NorthCarolina; United States District Court for the Middle District ofNorth Carolina

Federal Nature of Suit Civil Rights - Voting[441]

Docket Number 1:13-cv-00660

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660

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