STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 692/49

Full transcript of an interview with

KEITH GRAMP

on 4 July 2000

by Rob Linn

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

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OH 692/49 KEITH GRAMP

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription.

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge.

This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

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OH 692/49 TAPE 1 - SIDE A NATIONAL WINE CENTRE, WOLF BLASS FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. Interview with Mr Keith Gramp on 4th July, 2000, at Walkerville. Interviewer: Rob Linn. Keith, could we just begin with a bit about yourself. Where and when were you born? And tell me about your family. KG: I was born in the Barossa Valley on 12th August, 1925, and I’m the

youngest son of Fred Gramp, and he was the grandson of Johann Gramp who

started our vineyard in Jacob’s Creek in 1847, after arriving in Kangaroo Island

in 1837.

Following Johann, his son expanded the vineyard and the wineries, and then

eventually became Orlando Wines under the reigns of my late Uncle Hugo. He

went on expanding the organisation until his untimely death in 1938 on the

Kyeema air crash with fellow winemen Tom Hardy and Sid Hill Smith.

My education was at Rowland Flat and Nuriootpa High School. Then St

Peter’s College. Then I left school early—it was early in the War years. My

cousin Colin and brother Sid were in the services, and with my father having to

run the family business he wanted me back from school, so I helped and got

my education into the winemaking business by being in the laboratory and the

vineyards and helping out wherever I was needed in those early days, and

especially when labour was in short supply.

After the War I went to Roseworthy College and stayed there for two years.

And then the family had a discussion and they thought that, well, we’ve got—

here I’m about to do oenology and they thought that, well, there might be too

many doing the one thing. So they thought there should be somebody going

into marketing, and I was then asked if I’d go to Melbourne, which I did. I went

there on the 1st March, 1949. And from there—we then had a General

Manager following my uncle’s death but his time was up, and then we took over

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running the organisation and I eventually became the Sales Director. Things

went on from there.

Keith, could you actually describe the winery at your earliest memory? What was it like? KG: Well, all I can think of is a lot of tanks, and they were being built every

year, because in those days we were taking grapes from the growers that we

really didn’t want but we tried to help out as much as we could – they were

Depression years. And so I can always remember my father, especially around

Christmas time, watering down the new tanks with the hot weather. And that’s

as I remembered it - more and more of a concrete place. And we did have our

sections of wines in wood but then they started expanding in about 1935 when

we built two big cellars for storage of wine in wood.

So prior to that, the wine was stored in concrete tanks in-ground? KG: Some.

Above ground? KG: Both. And fermentation was done both above and below the ground.

Those tanks were all lined with paraffin and wine didn’t come in contact with

cement. Those days, wines were mostly fortified. And of course, they were

young wines and they weren’t the high quality wines we have today. Although

some of them were quite old.

What were some of the better known Orlando labels of the 30’s? KG: Well, I think the one was Conto - Oh, Conto! KG: Conto was our best seller -(Laughs) It was a wine that we sold at two

and threepence a 26 oz bottle. All the other minimum priced wines were two

shillings, but Conto was considered an upgrade of the lower priced wines. And

we had good sales for that.

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So it was a fortified? KG: Fortified. It was a Port. The name came from Constansia grape. Yes,

that was one of the biggest selling wines we had, and that was our life blood, I

suppose. (Laughs)

Have you ever had any idea where the name Orlando originated? Is it a family thing or - KG: Orlando is—well, perhaps I’ll explain why we use it for a start. The name

Gramp is too hard a name. It’s only the one syllable and I think you need—in

marketing—a double syllable. Well, the township we—Rowland Flat translated

into German, means Orlando. So thought that was an appropriate name to

have seeing that we lived at Rowland Flat.

What was the community like in those early years of your life? KG: Well, they were all mixed farmers. There was a school there, of course.

In fact, there were about thirty going to the State school. All I can remember is

that they were all mixed farmers and most of them had grapes. Of course, in

the 30s, they were fairly poor, and grape prices weren’t very high. That’s how I

remember them.

Was there much to-ing and fro-ing between other winemaking families that you remember? KG: To-ing and fro-ing?

I guess social relationships at that stage, in the 30’s. KG: Not so much, I think. That seemed to come later on when Wine Weeks—

of course, didn’t have Wine Weeks during the War but after the War we had the

Wine Weeks and then there was more mixing with the other companies.

So that starts later. KG: Yes.

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And you were telling me earlier, Keith, how the wine was sold. In what form it was sold. KG: Well, in those days it was—they were in bottles, flagons, stone jars,

octaves (that’s a ten gallon wooden container). Very few bottle sales. Some of

the licensees bottled their own. We’d supply the labels and they would print on

them who the owner/licencee was, and supply the labels. And the wines that

weren’t sold by the bottle went out in cases—five dozen to a case—and they

were packed with straw sleeves and local deliveries were in wooden crates.

That was the way we supplied wines in those days.

So you went through your apprenticeship at Rowland Flat basically? KG: Yes, that’s right. It was a great time because I had—in fact, it was during

the War years. We couldn’t get anybody to clean the boiler, and the boiler had

to be done, so got experience in that. It was quite an experience. It’s good

background for later on.

Was the distillery itself a bit of an eye opener for you? KG: It certainly was, yes. Because that kept going in the winter months

straight after—well, it was going during the vintage. But after that we had our

leachings and we stored them in iron tanks at the back of the winery, and then

would work 24 hours a day, distilling. That spirit was used for the fortification of

the muscats and the ports and the sherries as well as brandies.

So that was a terribly important part of the procedure for the winery. I mean, it was really the linchpin I suppose of the time? KG: It was, yes. I can’t remember too much about that now. I can remember

the leaching tanks where the—they were, I suppose, about 10,000 gallon

galvanised iron tanks. And the rain would fall in the wintertime, and there

would be an indentation on the top—fill up with water. And Rowland Flat was a

very, very cold place, and as young kids—boys—we’d get up there,—ten feet

up in the air, and the water would form into ice about one inch thick. So it was

cold. Rowland Flat was a cold spot.

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You weren’t sorry to go to Melbourne. KG: (Laughs) No. I found when I came back for meetings, and other times,

from Melbourne, I found Rowland Flat much colder than Melbourne. Because

we never had so many frosts over there. We had the frosts in—I can

remember having thirteen frosts in a row in 1943. Yes, so it was a cold place.

My word! So it was very much a family run business at the time? KG: Oh, yes. Well, there was my father and my uncle. My uncle, of course,

was the Managing Director and looked after the winemaking to sales and

distribution, whereas my father looked after the development. We ran some

sheep and cattle. He looked after that, and the vineyards in which we were

continuing planting. And he was also looking after the development of the

winery with these increased sales. And then we bought another winery in

Lyndoch the same year as my uncle was killed. So that expanded us quite a

bit and had extra storage down there. So everything was happening in ‘38,

and of course it was tragic when uncle was killed.

So, Keith, how about in terms of the employees in the winery? Were they mainly families who had been in the Barossa for some years? KG: They were. In fact, I did make a few notes earlier, on that. We seemed to

have about ten key personnel where running the winery distillery, looking after

the horses, sheep, cattle, vineyards, and the grapes coming in. We just had

those twelve key personnel. They all came from the area—from Tanunda.

Most of them from Tanunda.

And we had probably about fifty employees but, of course, you’d have seasonal

work coming into that. But they were all local people.

Some real characters amongst them? KG: Oh, yes. (Laughs) Oh, some of the things they did, too. We had these

big tanks, and there’s a gap of about four feet, and they’d just jump across from

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one tank to another. These days, of course, on those very same tanks there

are rails that go right around them. It was different in those days. (Laughs)

So was there the occasional tipple, or was that not allowed? KG: (Laughs) Oh, there was—oh, yes. They would sneak it. We didn’t give

them a handout—anything like that—but I think there were a few that imbibed.

I know that there were some Barossa wineries with a morning smoko, lunch and afternoon smoko where all they were allowed to have was a half bottle or something. KG: I don’t ever recall that happening in our place, no. But they took this at

their own risk. What is it? A bit of a schluck? (Laughs) KG: That’s the word, yeah. I think it was Günter Prass who told me that a lot of the hoses in the cellars got continually shorter. (Much laughter)

KG: Yes. It was only when you cleaned out the barrels that you found the hoses. (Laughter) So the move to Melbourne, Keith, is this a key move for you? KG: It was. I was newly married. It was quite an adventure then. We were

married in December, three months before. So it was quite an adventure

getting into a new world and getting to understand the running of a branch, and

how they operated. Then we had a General Manager who was there until

about my second year.

What was his name? KG: Belgrove—Roy Belgrove. He came to us after my uncle was killed and

we needed somebody in administration. My father wasn’t trained for the type

of work Belgrove took over as General Manager until we boys thought that,

well, we could run the business for ourselves. Didn’t require him any more.

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But from him I was taught advertising and marketing. And from there I had to

be on my own.

So in those days—this is what’s fascinated me—you were actually sent to Melbourne to learn marketing. And was the idea that the agencies, if you like, were the place where the people could be taught? KG: We had branches in each capital city, and I just had to be then

responsible for the marketing in those branches. Because in—as I said earlier,

mostly what you sold were fortified wines in bottles, and they were on quota

until they were lifted. Well, we still had to have them on quota because even

though quotas were lifted, we couldn’t get the grapes. There weren’t enough

grapes around. Well, there were no plantings being made from before the War.

And I eventually got to know the marketing side of it. Up until Barossa Riesling

came along in ‘53, there wasn’t much in the table wines. And then Barossa

Pearl came. Well, then after that, it was just -

Mayhem. KG: - lovely, you know, being in the industry, and we had all that expansion. So were you still in Melbourne then, Keith? KG: I remained in Melbourne until—I came back here in ‘72. We sold out to

Reckitt & Colman in ‘70/’71, and they wanted me back here. And of course,

from there, I went from marketing to supply. So it was quite the opposite.

Yes. KG: I finished up at supply. And I eventually retired when I was sixty, in 1985. Well, Keith, going back to the Melbourne experience with Barossa Pearl and the Barossa Riesling, could you tell me about that era and how—well, that was pioneering stuff for Australia. KG: Oh, it was. I remember well, with the Barossa Riesling, a very

progressive licensed grocer in Melbourne called Crittendens—the name still

goes there but I think it’s not owned by the family any more. Doug Crittenden

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at the time, when he tasted the wine, he said, ‘I want twenty dozen’ (or

whatever number). I gave him that. And he said, ‘Next month I wanted thirty

dozen’. I said, ‘I’m sorry’. Everybody else had the same feeling throughout

Australia. So he had a quota. Seventeen dozen a month. And he was lucky

to get that.

What was the reaction to that wine when it first came out? KG: Well, I think what it was, it was so fresh. Before we used to—before when

I mentioned about the winery, I did forget that we did have a lot of 500 casks

and 1,000 gallon casks, and they were mostly used for storing table wines, like

making our hock and claret. And I remember the hock, we always made that

from our own Rhine Riesling. It was specially looked after—went in there, but

every year we never sold it all. And of course, then it got a bit older, and you’d

keep it. But eventually we used to fortify it.

So it was kept in the wood? KG: Kept in the wood. Then later on when we couldn’t sell it and it became

too old—well, becoming too old, we would fortify it. And that went into a port

blend. Made quite a good wine in a port blend.

So I suppose in the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, the Barossa Riesling style was a wooded style, if you like. It was a - KG: It was a wooded style and it didn’t have that freshness. But as soon as

that—with the pressure fermentation and then cold fermentation, it made that

freshness, and that was it.

You couldn’t make enough of it? KG: Oh, we couldn’t get the grapes. Didn’t have the grapes. And of course,

that’s where Barossa Pearl came in. We had all the pressure tanks and only

used for about four weeks of the year. (Laughs) So we put it to use by

introducing Barossa Pearl.

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Now, Günter Prass was brought out from Germany, I think, to help with the Barossa Pearl, wasn’t he? With the Pearl wine? KG: He came out to help. I have to be very careful on this. Colin, I think, had

the inspiration—well, between the two of them. I’m not quite certain. I think the

concept was shared -

I know Colin hired him. KG: Yes. In fact, another winemaker was on his way. KG: Colin hired Gunter. Not to make Barossa Pearl. He hired him to look

after the winery. Because Colin was deeply involved in the whole running of

the company. And he looked after the winemaking but the aspect of the

Barossa Pearl, that’s a very -

Very touchy one, is it? KG: Yes.

Righto. I’ll remember that. KG: But Colin, I think, he took—the press have got it wrong sometimes, and

Colin is annoyed about that. So he should be, too.

Colin told me that the bottle was inspired by the Perrier water bottle - KG: Yes.

- and that was obviously—came partly through him, too. The labelling, I can’t remember who did that. Whether it was Wytt Morro? KG: Yeah, Wytt Moro. That’s right. Tell me about it from a marketing point of view though, Keith, in Melbourne. Was it just a phenomena? KG: I can remember the Redex Trial that went around Australia. I don’t know

whether you remember that?

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Yes, I do. KG: And I knew a few people associated with it—Caltex. And I received this

phone call from Broome one day, and said, ‘Is Barossa Pearl going to be in

Melbourne’. And I said, ‘Where’s the—you haven’t told me about this Barossa

Pearl’. And they said, ‘They’ve gone mad about it up here in Broome’. And

so when they got back to Melbourne—and by that time Western Australia went

mad with it because they—it was all by word of mouth. And Colin had to put it

on quota. And Western Australia’s quota was three times that of Melbourne.

Because we hadn’t got going there. (Laughs) Of course, then we had to go

through that period of getting more tanks. That took a while before we could

meet the demand.

So the Australian wine industry had actually never known anything like this? KG: Nothing. No. We had Champagne and that was it. And so that then, to

me, got the people going on drinking wine. It’s supposed to be the woman of

the house who wanted it—you know, the men were out having their beers until

six o’clock and when they came home they didn’t want anything else to drink.

But she got to hear about the Barossa Pearl and said that, well, if they opened

a bottle they both had to share it. (Laughter) So that went on.

It would’ve been a good time to have been with Orlando, I would think. KG: Oh, it was a very exciting time. It was all, you know, go. And as I

mentioned earlier with the wine waiters, who had nobody to—people were

starting to dine out. The hotels were putting in more sophisticated dining

rooms, and had them there, and nobody to serve them. [The leading wine

companies had training sessions for them on Sunday mornings]

You were telling me earlier, Keith, that beer was still rationed until 1952, and when the rationing came off, for about a year, sales slumped.

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KG: Sales dropped two million gallons in one year, just because people

were—in those days I suppose they were using it more as alcohol than wine.

As mentioned earlier, you can see how that all changed in a matter of months –

after Barossa Pearl’s introduction.

Well, through the 50’s as well, were the breweries largely controlling distribution through hotels still? KG: Oh, yes, yes. In Melbourne we had the Carlton United—the brewery.

They owned most of the, what they called, “tied” houses. So a lot of your wines

were sold or had to be given away—discounted. And they eventually bought a

wine and spirit business merchant. But they were beer houses, mostly. There

were very few hotels which had decent bottle departments.

In Melbourne, of course, we had the licensed grocers, and there were lots of

those, and they did at least promote wines. Whereas hotels sold them

because they were asked for them.

So as a person in marketing there, how would you actually get the material spread around? What was the routine? KG: Well, in those days, we had window displays. We had the press. And of

course, in 1956, we had television coming in for the first time. And of course

that also played an important part because people were starting to go out and

dine. Well, you could show the people what your gracious way of living is by

putting it in the TV ads. And, of course, promote itself. Then of course, later

on, all your Barossa Riesling and all those wines, - TV was just the ideal media

for promoting those wines. Table wines.

So in a sense Barossa Pearl was a child of the era and fitted in with the rise of television and - KG: It did. - popular culture. KG: Everything came in at that time, yes.

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That’s pretty amazing. It’s also the time in which many of the first Australian books on wine begin appearing after a long gap. KG: Yes. I remember Walter James. I think it was in 1950. That’s right. KG: And then there was Harry Cox. And then later on there was Max Lake.

Later on still there’s Len Evans and James Halliday. But they all—I mean,

there was a whole combination there. I mean, the wine industry—the

Australian Wine Board—instead of using their resources for promoting wines

overseas, they now use it in Australia. And so we had a very strong growth in

the industry.

That growth had obviously not been anticipated at that level for Orlando? KG: No, that was all quite—I suppose that terrific growth contributed to the fact

that as a small company, as a family company, we couldn’t really survive with

our resources, and it was necessary to go into partnership with a public

company.

Now I wonder whether we might backtrack, Keith, to some of the other material in between. But what if we talk about Reckitt & Colman coming in because I know to the people of the Valley it was a great surprise. KG: Oh, it would’ve been. Well, we had this expansion which we couldn’t

resource from the family. So that’s why we went outside. And we knew Reckitt

& Colman, being a good marketing organisation, we thought, well, we can

make the wine and they can promote it for us. And it worked in very well for us.

So was it a great—in a sense it was more a partnership than a takeover? Or was - KG: Well, it was a takeover. We were offered shares and cash. But they were

very good. They allowed all the Directors to remain. I stayed with them until I

retired. And so did my brother. But Colin went on to pursue other pursuits

after a few years. So he didn’t stay there until the end.

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So Colin opened the Weinkeller ? KG: He opened the Weinkeller, yes. He had that going. So he was -

Twenty years ahead of its time probably. KG: Yes, it was. It was very good because the Valley had really nothing like

that. Of course, it’s all changed since then.

Oh, it certainly has. Keith, could you tell me a bit about the 60’s for Orlando, leading up to Reckitt & Colman. What were the new products coming in at that time? KG: Oh, I can remember—again, red wine went through a stage there of being

hard to get. But I can remember we introduced a wine called Miamba. I think it

was one of the first times we put a vintage year on to a label. We made quite

good progress but we weren’t successful perhaps like Moyston claret and a

few of the others. Went in for it in a big way because we were going to semi-

sparkling in a big way. So can’t do everything.

No. KG: But the 60s was—and we saw in the 60s, the wine shows. I think my

timing is right there. Previously the wine shows had first, second and third, and

then they introduced the gold medal system, which gave an equally good wine

a better chance of being promoted. And of course, the—was it the 60’s or the

70s when the new varieties of Chardonnay -

Yes. KG: They only came into bearing in the 70s. Was it in the early 60’s that the Steingarten vineyard opened? KG: Yes, that was in the—more late 60’s than early 60’s. I think more like—

I’m trying to think of the first vintage. Sorry, my memory’s not quite right there.

That was more like about ‘67. Somewhere like that. May’ve been planted in

about the early 60’s, yes.

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TAPE 1 - SIDE B Keith, we’re talking about the 1960’s and the changes that come into the industry. I suppose the bag-in-the-box in the late 60’s is something that - KG: That’s the big one that came and really lifted the sales of wine. Yes, that

was late 60’s. As far as our company—we came into it in the early 70’s and it

made sales of—consumption of wine went up terrifically from then on.

I think the Angoves were the first to experiment with it in bulk. I seem to remember that. But that wasn’t successful, I don’t think. KG: I remember Penfolds having wine in a metal container. But that leaked so

badly that they gave it away. Then I think Dan Murphy played around with it for

a while in Melbourne, and then of course after that Wynns really got it going.

We were with Reckitt & Colman then. Of course, they didn’t waste any time.

We were soon matching Wynns. And I think we—Coolabah became the

biggest selling cask wine.

Now that brand, as far as brand goes, would still be one of the best known names in Australian wine, I suppose, for mass consumption wine. KG: The Coolabah?

Mm. KG: I don’t know today. I couldn’t answer that. I’m not -

It’s still around. KG: (Laughs) I know that. So it probably is but I just don’t know what -

So was it in that period with Reckitt & Colman, too, that Jacob Creek started—the range began? KG: Yes. The first vintage was 1973. So that would’ve been about ‘75/’76, I

think, when they introduced Jacob’s Creek. Well, I didn’t realise what was

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going to happen with that wine but it certainly was a success. Well, that was

our introduction—I mentioned earlier that we didn’t have a Moyston or a

Cowarra or some of those other well known West Australian reds at the time,

and of course that’s where we came in with Jacob’s creek. I think we got quite

a bit of the share of the market with that introduction. It was a success

straightaway.

I suppose the market had grown so rapidly that everybody was caught a bit by surprise and - KG: Yes, they would’ve been. But of course then, at that time, the market was

swinging around to white wines. Whether, all those who were drinking the reds

before, their livers caught up with them and they felt they’d have to drink white.

(Laughs) But it swung around to the white wines. Course, we also had the

Chardonnays coming in for the first time. So there was a whole transformation

there.

Now could you just talk a little bit, Keith, about the background, both political and I suppose—no, it would be political in terms of why the Chardonnays and the newer grape varieties for Australia at least had to come on board then? KG: Well, I think the Hunter had Chardonnay before but you couldn’t bring the

cuttings across the borders.

This is the Phylloxera Act? KG: Phylloxera Act, yes. There wasn’t anything like that happening. So we

couldn’t get any other grape variety. But then with the—whatever they did to

make certain that we could use cuttings from a certain source, we were able to

do it. But I suppose the people—they were just drinking Riesling before. And

of course, New South Wales always had their Semillons, which is what we

used to call the Hunter River Riesling. Course they had a market in Sydney for

all of that and, of course, people became more and more orientated with that

type of wine, and so this went across borders and just had a—people wanting, I

suppose, a change as well. They had their Rieslings, and some prefer the less

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acid wine that you find in Chardonnay. That was quite a change. And of

course, now it’s all Chardonnay and no Riesling. (Laughs)

Oh, I don’t know about - (Laughs) KG: I mean by consumption. But there are still some people who liked it. I

think you’ll find most winemakers, if you ask them, there’s no such thing as a

Chardonnay. There’s only a Rhine Riesling - one white wine and that is Rhine

Riesling.

Well, we won’t go into that. Because I agree with that. The 70’s too, Keith, is a time when the mass consumption market grows to such a degree, I suppose, that the big discounters come in. KG: Oh, that’s where they came in. And of course, you had also the other

wine companies—we weren’t the only one that went to corporate, like Reckitt &

Colman, but most of the major companies were sold out to a corporate. And of

course, then we had some keen competition from—and marketing came into it.

And new labels—it was quite an era.

Did taste change rapidly then in the public in those years from sort of the Cold Duck mentality to something else to something else? KG: Cold Duck was like a red Barossa Pearl. It was. KG: Yeah. But, no, I think a lot of those people—the consumption of those

wines went down and they replaced them, of course, with the still table wine.

And it’s gone on that way.

And then of course—I suppose it would’ve been towards the latter end of the

70’s, but perhaps early into the 80’s—the Champagne came into vogue. And

that then just about disposed of all the semi sparkling wines. All went into the

Champagne.

So you go to the full sparkling? KG: Full sparkling, yes.

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In terms of change, Keith, what are the most profound changes that you’ve seen over time? KG: Well, the change to drinking table wine in the mid 50’s, and the swing

from drinking fortified wines to drinking table wines. That was the biggest thing

that happened in my time. And then the next, of course, were the different

varieties that came into it.

And then, of course, you have the—the marketing side came into it. That was

it. You had a lot more—you had wholesalers who came into the picture.

Instead of dealing straight with a retailer, you had to deal through a wholesaler.

That all changed, too. And that’s where your big corporates came into it. They

could handle that side of things.

Did you find the personalities changed over time? I mean, it was away from families more to media identities? KG: Yes. When you think back into the 50s, every winery was a family

concern.

But also, in the 70s, we saw the boutique wineries coming up. In those days

we had about 200 wineries, including boutique. But, of course, it’s over 1,000

now. That was all happening in the 70s. People like—well, you had—Max

Lake was a bit earlier, but a lot of people started off as a hobby and then got

themselves really interested in wine.

Yes, an amazing number of medicos (couldn’t decipher). There must’ve been surplus income. (Laughter) KG: Yes. Well, I suppose you had tax advantage in those days. I didn’t say that. (Laughter) And Keith, politically, what were some of the changing pressures that you can remember coming on from the government over the years? The changes that were brought in? KG: Well, I suppose the reintroduction in—I think that was in the early 70s.

I’ve forgotten which government. It was the Liberal Government who

reintroduced excise. And when that was—Gough Whitlam increased that a bit

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further. That had quite an effect I think on—retarding sales. That was, I

thought, quite serious.

That was very much on spirit, wasn’t it? Brandy spirit. KG: No, no, no. That was straight on all wines.

OK. Well, there must—well, Whitlam brought in another one, too, on spirits. KG: Was it a sales tax or—we always had a duty preferential on brandy over

other spirits. We’ve always had that. Well, we did have it. I don’t know what it

is now.

Looking back, Keith, are there are a couple of humorous incidents that you can recall? KG: No, not really. One—in the Barossa Pearl when that was introduced—

you may have heard of a footballer from Melbourne called Ron Barassi.

Yes. KG: This person came in and asked for a Barassi Pearl. Thought we’d named

it after him. (Laughter)

I think that’s a great one. It could only happen in Melbourne. KG: No, I don’t recall that many incidents. I do recall we had cork problems

back in those days. The boys were giving me a farewell luncheon. Looked

after the export sales to the Far East. And the waitress said, ‘Mr Gramp, you

don’t have to try your own wine’. And I said, ‘Oh, yes, I do. There’s a chance

in a million it might be corked’. Anyway, the next bottle was opened and one

of the reps said—I said, ‘You try it, John’. And he said, ‘Boss’, (as he always

called me), ‘chance in a million’. It was corked. So we had them back in those

days. Perhaps a lot more now because we sell a lot more.

Well, Keith, thank you for talking to me today. Are there any other things that you feel you’d like to talk about?

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KG: I was just thinking that it’s hardly—how it’s all changed with the export

now. You know, to see it all happening. And for all those years we—and of

course, our main market before the War was export, and we were trying to get

rid of the surplus stocks. A lot were brought on, of course, when the soldier

settlements were made. The government put them on the land and never had

markets for their grapes so -

That was good to see that at last we’re back again with the export. And to think

we’ve got it all around the world. And I think that’s one of the greatest things

that have happened to the Australian wine industry, to think that we are now a

worldwide country that produces wine. And it’s absolutely great that I was able

to see that before I go away from this world.

The other interesting fact was that the vineyards were being planted in the

cooler climate. Now, we never had that. 75% of the grapes were grown in the

Barossa I think at one time—or in South Australia. And it was all in the hot

areas. But now when you think of the wines that are being produced in

Western Australia and Tasmania in the cool—and Victoria—in the cooler

climates, we’ve certainly gone a long way.

Well, thank you so much, Keith, for talking.