PageTWG Meeting on Minimum Broadband SpeedMay 26, 2015/2:30PM | 43REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINESNATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSIONQuezon City--------------------------------------------TWG Meeting on Minimum Broadband Speed------------------------------------------TRANSCRIPT

OF THE STENOGRAPHIC NOTES TAKEN DURING THE PUBLIC HEARING ON MAY 26, 2015 AT 2:30 IN THE AFTERNOON, BEFORE ALL CONCERNED OFFICIALS AND REPRESENTATIVE OF DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND STAKEHOLDERS ----------------------------------------

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Good afternoon po. Again, thank you very much for attending this meeting. This is the end time na siguro na mag-memeeet tayo. We have here this afternoon from the Committee on ICT sa Congress, we have Ranier Alvarado. Sa Committee on ICT po sya. The chair is Cong. Susana Yap. Perhaps, para makilala tayo, siguro let us introduce ourselves muna para makilala tayo ni Ranier. We will start with Pierre. ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = Hello, I am Pierre Tito Galla, PECE, co-founder of Democracy.net.ph. along with my collegue Atty. Francis Acero.

MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Hi, I am Mary Grace Santos. I am from LIRNEasia, a regional ICT policy and regulation think tank. I am also a member of Internet Society Philippine Channel. MR. WINTHROP YU = I am Winthrop Yu of Internet Society-Philippines. ATTY. ANTHONY FERNANDEZ = Anthony Fernandez from SMART. ATTY. ROY IBAY = Roy Ibay From PLDT-SMART.MS. MARIBETH SANTOS = Maribeth Santos from PAPTELCO. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Eric Delos Reyes from PAPTELCO/PCTO. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Okay, thank you, we are just waiting for Derek. We have circulated last time, I guess last Friday if I am not mistaken, the copy of the draft of the rules on the technical as measurement, etc. And we also have given you copies of the submission of the LIRNEasia na nareceived namin kahapon. Well, perhaps, we could go over yung (cont.Dir.Egay)draft na cinirculate natin last time. There are comments etc., we can discuss it now para matapos natin yan so that we can go to other issues. By the way, sinabi lang dyan kung ano ang susukatin at kung papaano, iyon lang yan. We have not incorporated there yung standards. Wala pa diyan kasi paguusapan pa lang natin dyan. Just yung i-memeasure na parameters and how it is going to be measured ung point A and Point B as discussed here last time. And there are four diba iyong DSL, FTTA, yung fixed wireless tsaka yung cable TV kasi apat po iyan e. So, iyon ang Point A mo then we have point B and so on. Iyan lang po ang content nya. We have received although this was not circulated kasi nabasa lang natin. PLDT soft the opinion na huwag isamang sukatin ang Packet Loss at Jitter. Iyon po ang suggestion nila. All the parameters except Packet loss and Jitter. Sabi nila, on parameters to tested, we suggested two, Packet loss and Jitter. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = You mean, we will measure it but not release? DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes.MR. FRANCIS ACERO = I think that is helpful din sa inyo. Just to my expeience with your technician come over, hinahanap din niya yun. So, based on the industry standard?

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yung pag-seset ng standards ay i-didiscusss pa natin and how will the result be released paguusapan pa po natin yan, wala pa po tayo dyan. Because this is a contentious issue kung paano irerelease kasi medyo masalimoot po yon. Kung mali kasi iyon, the report can have so many interpretations kasi mas mahirap. So let us discuss yung issue na yan later yung how it is going to be publish etc. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = It is helpful nung dumating yung service person sakin mineasure din nya yun. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Lima ang nariyan, yung average, down/up speed and then yung latency, packet loss and jitter. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = For example, yung packet loss. Packet loss can gain indication that problem is inside the subscribers. If it is measured according to this then wala masyadong packet loss. And then the subscribers proofs himself reported that notary post a complaint that there was a packet loss. Then it is easier to point to the subscriber that the problem is inside in the subscriber. Just a suggestion.

MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = We believe that is a way of educating the consumers themselves. Kasi di ba we are trying to teach the consumers and subscribers how to use the internet properly. So, if they now understand and they begin to understand the different factors that affect their internet service. Then, would that be a win-win situation? Just a comment po on that suggestion on PLDT. LIRNEasia, the one that we have submitted yesterday suggests that we measure everything here that the NTC recommends but we are also amenable to having two sets of metrics. One is for compliance and one is for monitoring purposes only. So, our recommendation is that, for compliance, we can measure and set minimum standards for specific metrics those are download and upload speeds and also the latency. For monitoring purposes only, just so that we can have information about those metrics. We recommend to measure volume, packet loss and jitter. But the metrics for monitoring only, we do not want to be publish astringently like as widely as those for the compliance. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Of course, the suggestion is that we measure, we set standards for speed and for latency. So, yun po ang suggestion ng LIRNEasia. Kasi, presently, we are being compared to other countries kasi based on speed, average speed lahat ng measurement. So, perhaps,

(cont.Dir.Egay)what I can suggest is if we are going to set standards and iseset natin is on average speeds. Kasi iyon po ang minemeasure. Kinocompare kasi tayo sa ibang bansa on average speed. But how are we going to set the standards? Iyon po ang paguusapan, kung paano. Yung latency, it is up for the discussions pero perhaps iyong average speed iyon po ang atin. Iyon po ang kinukumpara tayo. So, we have to work on that one. Yes, Roy? ATTY. ROY IBAY = Going to our discussion earlier, we respect the decision of LIRNEasia, democracy.net.ph. and ISOC-PH. However, we stand by our recommendation that the speed and volume, so, upload and download speed and volume be the parameters that should be subject to measurement. However, we respect you position. Again, we submit as to the PCTO to the carriers. We would like to limit the measurement to speed, download, upload and volume. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = So, perhaps, we can stand there. Dun muna tayo, pagusapan muna natin iyon, speed and then set. Kasi the talk of speeds, iyong ating inissue nung 2011 is minimum kasi, minimum speed of 80% of the time, speed. So, iyon po noong 2011. There is a proposal now to measure the average speed but you need to compare that average

(cont.Dir.Egay)speed. Ano iyon? Shall we set the minimum average speed or we compare it to other parameters like yung suggestion is yung up to? So, i-compare mo sya sa up to and then set the duration. Ito rin yung suggestion, yung original suggestion. You have the average, up and down, and then compare it with up to and then get the ratio etc. Ito po yung suggestion as of now. Iyon ang nasa draft rules. The other one is of course, setting the minimum ng average speed. Okay, but I do not know, if we set the minimum average speed that may tataasan mo. Kasi hindi naman maganda if you will set the minimum average na lower than what is being publish and then magseset ka ng minimum average than that nakakahiya naman, etc. So, yes, please? ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = Sir, yung current minimum, for example, I just picked up a flyer from Globe and the current minimum setting for flyers is 48 to 56 MBPS tapos 80% reliability. When I picked up a flyer from SMART is the same. Tapos doon sa wire is different naman. It is reasonable naman, I think, to pursue stick that we present this to the public what the minimums are. Hindi po siguro nakakahiya, it is not embarrassing. But we know the minimums are. For as long as we are just clear that the minimums are these. It is going to be unfair then for service providers that we will impose a minimum that they

(cont.Engr.Galla)cannot meet whether it is fixed wireless, wire or mobile, we are going to impose let us say the broadband definition of the ITU of 256 MBPS to them but they cannot meet that, then that would be a duly burdening with them naman. So, it is fine if we will stick in publishing what the minimums are. We just require the service providers na whatever your minimums are, let us declare it to public in proper. That is the position that we have on the draft. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = So, the suggestion is we let them specify their minimum average speed. ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = So, currently they are already complying with the old 7-7-2011 that the minimum speed is X, Y and Z? They are complying with that. Are we fine with that? Dapat continue nalang yan. That is our position. Dapat i-continue nalang yan i-publish ang minimums na ganun. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = But yung kanila kasing minimum is to be experience 80% of the time. So, it is different to what we are trying to do now is to measure the average. Kasi yon ang kinukumpara tayo sa ibang

(cont.Dir.Egay)bansa especialy the average speed. So, we will just continue asking them to specify the minimum that can be experience 80% of the time. Yes, Eric? MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = I have heard, Dir. Egay, that before with regards with the comparison. I think it is a big unfair if we will have to mention what we have mentioned earlier regarding compared. As we have mentioned in the past, before we even go to the metrics, before we even go to the metrics what we are discussing, we have to look to at the available infrastructure that we have in the country right now. I think during last meeting, we have mentioned that there are places that cannot even released by the available terrestrial bandwidth, the available bandwidth that you can use to be exact. So, I think we have to qualify that we cannot just upset to what we allocate compared to other countries. We have to qualify which country. It may be compared to Korea or more developed countries then I agree and to compare with other then it would be better. So, except that you want to re-progress, you want to progress also. But we can use that siguro as a basis just look at what we have right now.

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Iyon kasing measurement done by others, mas mabuti if we come up with our own measurements and then sabihin natin na ito yan this is based from our own measurements, ito yan hindi yan. So ito yung point natin. Of course, iba kasi ang methodology nila and I will let them do it. But we can come up with our own measurement basis naman. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Just to repeat what they are saying. If we impose a minimum, that is not going to be fair to the TelCos because again, lalo na with mobile these are a highly variable environment. When it comes to fixed, we written that open competition is going to be the best way to all minimum speeds. That is why we believe that measurement and publication of these variables would be the best way to uplift speeds and errors. If regard with the download speeds that is the average household, download speed for fixed line. And that is based on people who make to their internal things using speed test. If we go and set a minimum based on, it represents a whole. For what level? Is there be a minimum for what price? Should there be a minimum? When others come in the market can come in and offer something that is more destructive, we do not want to stop that.

MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = I just want to emphasize that this is actually what we are doing. It is actually an opportunity for the Philippines to correct whatever ranking is out there, whatever conception is out there. We can always go about complaining about the methodology used by ookla or by akamai. But unless we have our own way of measuring and then there is no way for us to say that no that is not true. Of course, these running sites do this for profit. They have their own reasons. So, it does not matter to them if in their ranking the Philippines is only second in Afghanistan in terms of lowest average speed. But what do we have to counter that? We do not have anything. So, unless we have an official measurement tool or something that is a methodology we can agree on to present that this is according to our testing and methodology. This is the real situation. And also, I want to repeat the LIRNEasiass recommendation from the beginning. We are not for imposing a minimum average speeds. We are for measuring typical and average speeds across the country using large data sets as much as possible. We cannot just measure, let say NCR and then say that minimum average speed sa NCR ay ganito, so, i-impose na natin yan nationwide that we are not for that. We actually want to have a measuring tool with a credible reasonable methodology something

(cont.Ms.Santos)that the NTC, the TelCos and all consumers can all agree on and understand we want to educate the public on what factors are affecting the internet use. And, so that we will know what kind of plan do I need the data plan. If I am using the, probably, I will get a plan that is very good in latency. Or I used a VOIP a lot especially for communicating with OFW or to my business and then maybe I will get a plan that is very good in latency, jitter and packet loss. So, I think that is a first step to educating and also setting our own standards without being compared unnecessarily and unreasonably to other countries. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = So, ang ibig sabihin nyan is that we do not set the minimum average speed. And we just measure and then release the results. So, we do not set any minimum etc. So, iyon po ang aking gagawin then the result will be released per area basis, NCR ito ang NCR kasi magkakaiba yan and then you take the average. ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = If that is the approach that we are going to take for the moment and then alter on we can set standards then essentially yung draft na pinresent ng democracy.net. cannot be released without the standards. But the measurements of the publication siguro pwede na iyon?

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, so we will the discuss the publication side later. What I understand now is that we do not set standards. We measure and then release. So let the consumers choose the plan, etc. Yes? ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = And then it would help correct any misperceptions with regards to what are the actual speeds are. Kasi for instance, yung 3.6 ni Ookla ay baka 3.6 because saka lang sila nagmemeasure ng connectivity nila when they are pissed off with their connection. They do not measure as a normal basis. They do not monitor their connectivity. So, saka lang nila minemeasure and that is why the numbers are like that because they only measure when they fee or they perceived that something is wrong which is wrong naman din. What we need to have is a methodology that is consistently and continually, good results, publication na X, Y and Z periodic results ito ang actual ng Pilipinas. It would help correct any misperceptions that are brought about by such firms who do those user generated results. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Eric?

MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Thank you, Dir. Egay. Sorry but we cannot agree to the measurement and then publish. Again, I have mentioned before, the problem is that there are so many resellers and those resellers are competing again to those who buy their bandwidth. So, what do you want us to do? You want us to fold up? That is just coping up with other carriers. They are getting into our areas. So, what happens? I do not think that we can agree on that kind of proposal.

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Well, let us first take a look at the situation where yung sa kanila yung access kasi they are just providing the access kasi last mile yung sa kanila. So, they are very independent on the connectivity. Kung pangit ang connectivity nila they will suffer. Don kasi sila sa huli, the last mile. Yung access site, yung connectivity site kasi they are leasing from the network provider. So, iyon po ang situation nila katulad ng CATV and the others. So, we fully understand. Let us look at their situation. Ihiwalay po natin ang situation nila as the situation of those who providing connectivity also at iyon po an gating ihihiwalay para po hindi sila maapektuhan whatever results of what we will be publish. Titingan nyo yung situation na yan para hindi kayo ma-prejudice. Yes?

MR. FRANCIS ACERO = We were saying before na we were not oppose beard measuring system where resellers are being measured on a different standards as opposed to network providers. In that way na if per persons na who are similar situated are measured na equal. The point is the market has to be able to meet an inform choice. If the market is kept in dark above, the choice is not they have above call it link then that defeats the purpose of the market itself. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Eric? MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = I do not think they can keep on the dark. There is an experience alone can have the providers the action that whether they are going to use the providers or not. Competition yan, may competition ka. The problem of what you are saying is what you want us to do is that okay, i-label na natin yan. Ito yung mga first provider, ito yung secondary. Doon pa lang, kinaclasify mo na lang kami para okay ito yung mga second class sets at ito yung mga first class citizen at ito ang first class citizen. We were not competing in one market. We are not competing okay into high-end market. You are competing across the ball. So, it would be prejudicial to the resellers. Di ba?

(cont.Mr.DelosReyes)Icaclasify mo na agad. Tapos sasabihin mo, PLDT and Globe ito yung sa kanila then imeasure natin into resellers. We are comeoting across the ball. Hindi naman natin kinukuha yung CD market e, lahat yan. So paano? So, sasabihin natin , ito class A to at ito class B? icaclasify mo na din di ba? Prejudicial sa mga resellers yan. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Our idea is that there is a feeling in consumers that no matter where you go the experience is going to be the same. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Yes, but why will you easy for us to fold up? Sige sasabihin mo sige, i-lalabel na natin agad yan without even know the feeling of the subscribers. I-prelabel nalang natin sila. Ito yung opera sa kanila yung second class, the second secondary players and the primary players mo. Kasi if you do that, i-pupublish mo then i-memeasure mo, then ipupublish tapos sasabihin mo dito ka nalang. Why you do not let the subscribers experience? Kasi para may power of suggestion yan, hindi pa naeexperience then sige primary ito. Ito yung mga high end so dito nalang tayo. Parang sinasabi mo na agad na, pre, dito yan without even trying. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes. Ang ibig sabihin nyan kasi is you compare kung pareho sila. Yes,

(cont.Dir.Egay)I understand kasi when you publish, comparative kasi yan kung pinublish mo. Kung hindin naman sila parepareho, so yung result may be distorted kasi hindi naman sila parepareho ng standing. Perhaps, you can compare the big players so ito ang results etc. Yes? Go ahead please. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = The whole point is that I believe na if you let the people decide based on that work of mouth and that is even worst for the smaller players na because with how fast things circulated. I mean there is no way to verify or report that market experience alienation because that is anecdotal evidence on that point and there is no way that you can repack anecdotal. At least, with the publish figures, there is a way to know our experience like this. The reason why they go to these ISPs instead of service providers that are more vertical integrated is you offer other things that are not available from the other big service providers, service that are more personal touch that are not available to them. That is a good thing. That should what market play up. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Eric?

MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Question, if I am getting 10MBPS from PLDT and they owned the whole pipe of bandwidth. How can you change the perception? Sinasabi mo anecdotal, okay, let us go factual. The package is 100MBPS then I can only afford 10MBPS as a reseller in a particular area. So you publish that and then they probability because I can provide 100 MBPS in a particular area. This particular PAPTELCO reseller can only have 10 MBPS. That is factual that is not an anecdotal. So where do you think the subscribers will go? MR. FRANCIS ACERO =Yes, for the same price. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES =Yes, yung sinasabi mo na ito mas mabuti ito kahit hindi sabihin na mabuti may capability ito to provide this one ito lang ang kaya nito, di ba? Sinasabi ko na agad sa kanila. Mineasure ko sinabi mo na ito ang kaya nyan. Nasabi mo na. Nilabel mo na agad yan. MR. FRANCIS ACERO =What I am asking nga is what you measure is not just to two variables but to five variables. Because there are other things that go into an internet experience is not just stated. The reason why we go through

(cont.Mr.Acero)that, as a consumer, you tolerate all these other ISPs is that you believe that they can provide better service over other aspects. So, if you are for example a PLDT and you offer 10MBPS in your reseller you offer also a 10MBPS. You should able to meet on the same speed that you deliver. Now, of you believe that PLDT is joking your bandwidth then that is the time they will issue, that you should take up with PLDT. It should not happen. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, we are discussing the publication kasi yong parameters, tapos na yon and we will not presenting the standards. So, ito yung publication side. We are discussing that merong concern ang resellers that they maybe prejudice with the publication of the results etc. So, ito po ang concern nya. This is what we are trying to address. Perhaps, what we can do is first, dito muna sa NCR. The equipment will be in NCR, dito muna yan and there is only one. Mahirap gamitin yan all over the country na sabay sabay. So, perhaps, what I suggests is kung meron man later on amendments these one to cover yung kanilang concerns, we go out when equipment are available na to measure throughout the country. Saka natin iaaddress perhaps yung concern ng mga small players outside Metropolitan Manila area kasi NCR muna maumpisahan. So that we could start to release the MC and we could start measuring and then release to within the NCR muna in the mean time. So, we are in the concern of the resellers and smaller players outside the NCR. Isusunod na lang natin later on para mapabilis na ma-promulgate yung rules. Marami ng naghihintay kasi. So we will have to move faster. That is a suggestion kung okay then we can move. Iyon muna, the NCR muna wala muna all the media players are Metro Manila so that we can compare. Mabilis nalang icompare iyon. After all, the market is here. And of course, we are looking at the other markets later on malapit dito kasi nariyan yang CALABARZON area, malaki din ang market dyan going towards Bulacan, Pampanga malaking market yan. Yes, please? MR. MEDEL = I am just trying to catch up to the conversation that you are talking. With respect to the measurements, as you know we already have hearing last week at Congress with respect to this. Recently, it is accepted by Cong. Yap. That he accepted that wireless broadband, there are lot of controllables. Okay? These composers are such as latency, jitter and packet loss. So, how we are going now to do to measurement within those parameters? How can move forward with those types of parameters? I have prepared something on it. In following the last hearing, with respect to the accepted environment which they are already reaccepted. For example, the time of handset, , gadget, location with regards to indoors or outdoors, number of subscribers in malls. So, these are all uncontrollables. I do not think we could measure on a specific point in time where we get a consistent measure on a given point A to Point B. And the next thing is that in point B, if I may say Point A with respect to my client that I may using where it is gonna be an Ookla, open signal, akamay, there are all different in terms of measurement. And exacalty, according to delap, when they offer ookla versus akamay, there is a big difference in terms of measurements. So, we have the so particular to take a look of what type of line that we will be using if we are going to do testing. And on the server side, we never know what type of server that you will be using because for how many concurrent users that particular server that you are going to take up is we will able to accommodate in a certain given time. And I will take yes, the truth a certain server has to be given in order for you to really measure what is really true to measure because it can be testing the web, the web server, the training servers they will be getting a different results in a given time. So, as we have mentioned, you have already said that there is a speed of up to? And we have already agreed that on the past hearing in NTC that we will only be measuring the download, upload and the volume which was already be known to the subscribers. And especially, what are these given fact notes that we will be interpret by the consumers? What are those? Will it help then? How we are going to interpret them in terms of download and upload speed? I do not think these subscribers or consumers will be able to interpret it. That in the consumers side in terms of publication, it will going to be harmful instead of going to be competitive in publication environment. So, I do not think for us that it is going to be measurement for us to measure Jitter, packet loss and latency.

MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Okay, just because you have a multiple variables no matter how far or wide in those variables that will not be cannot measure. By the way, exemption to the fact that, to the assession that the subscribers they could not, the TelCos cannot provide the subscribers with information of usage. Now, but immediately, you mentioned ookla, akamay and how the measurements vary. But clearly, regardless who does the measurements and how they do it from abroad you will see actually near the bottom. So, what Dir.Egay is proposing earlier is simply do this information on not mandatory. There is a series of test here locally and make those tests available to the public. So, I think the bottom line question here is would you rather have public only be see the results from ookla and akamay? because they will keep seeing those. So, regardless of whether the NTC comes out with the publication or not the public will always see the akamay and ookla results. So, in a sense, the NTC proposal what they intend to come out with the MC is actually good because it is our measurement so at least we have something to point to dito satin na ganito ang measurement natin. MR. MEDEL = But the point is what we are saying in the public is download and upload speed. So happen to say this is the significant figures for the subscribers. Let us say 100 latency? Ano ito? Dagdag bayad ba ito o bawas bayad? So, what can you see is how fast the downloading in a given time, the uploading, the downloading, the streaming.

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Hindi naman idodownload yun. Ang i-dodownload ay speed. Yes? go ahead.MR. FRANCIS ACERO = If I were the subscriber, I think the public already know these things. They just do not what it called yet. The biggest use now of this wherein packet loss and jitter, number is online gaming. So they keep on hammering that out of the public and there will be no way to reback that. ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = The firm in online gaming they called it log. They do not call it latency. They call it log, na-log ako. They have the term but they do not know the proper term which is latency. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = We have these commercial that are running. If there is a serious Jitter and latency issue there, you will see it. And then you will be the first one to hit by this question. For us, because we know some technical, we will know the problem is. And you will say, all you have to do is this, is this and you will be fine. But to them? This is the whole point of the exercise you have to head of these questions because you want to be literate. Right now, I have my plan and I talked to my sister, she is in the states and he works personally. So she kinds of used to magandang bato. And whenever I talked to her on multiple platforms just to see to which platform delivers the most consistent and each and every single time even though there I pay for a speed that is theoretically should allow me to string things up to 7Mb. kahit void transactions lang hindi rin matapos tapos. And so the best way if that is not really important, I will go back to voice. If for example, I want to see my youngest, because these are the applications that matter in the dealings in the future. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Eric? MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Just a question. So it matters to them and they found out that the Jitters is not more less in the standard perhaps they set to themselves latency and everything. So, what will be the next measurement? Soon the company or disconnect? Or look for another provider? MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Under the market, you supposed to look for another provider. One that provides better service for you. Second, whatever that provider offers, for example given a particular pay system, you look for that.

MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = But our plans are not based on Jitter, latency and other metrics. So, our plan is based on download and upload speeds. Okay, sige alam na naming yung Jitter, alam na namin ang latency, okay tumawag ka sa kapatid mo sa states then hindi kayo nagkaintindihan. So what is the value now? What will be the use of this information? I just want to know what the plan is. ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = Actually, assuming they had publish tapos si reseller A, si TelCo B and so on parepareho sila ng connectivity in so far as to advertise. Parepareho din ng performance in so far as proven by publish. Pero si reseller A has better performance in as so far as latency dahil mas maganda yung network management nila. Edi doon sya magmomove. Because people moved based on publish speeds. Yung publish speed nyo is 1mbps,the other one is performed giving for the same price 2mbps, moved sila dun sa 2mbps kasi it is market. That is how it works. MR. WINTHROP YU = Just to addressed this question directly. Actually, to offer theTelCos a possibility a product differentiation or service differentiation. Bakit? Yung mga gamers, kahit yung mga sa liblib na internet cafe, kahit sa pisonet alam nila yung log. Ibig sabihin ng log, binabaril mo yung kalaban yun pala patay na. So, they understand the principle of latency. So, how can you repackage this? You can actually give up a very low usage cut plan with a very low latency in otherwise mabilis itong mag-react. Pero hindi ganon kalaki ang data usage mo. Bakit? Gaming is actually a very low data usage sa activity. So, you can actually device, your marketing department can device a special plan for gamers only or yung data usage cut ninyo ay mababa. I mean yung latency ninyo ay mabilis hindi kayo mauunahan sa barilan. So, these are the possibilities. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes? Go ahead Eric. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = So, if that is the point, this should not be imposed. This should be measure samin nalang. If we will used that later on for product differentiation marketing strategy then, it is up to us. It should not be imposed. We can market it on our own. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Wala namang standards na iseset just measure it and it will not be publish. But kung mayroong may gusto, they can. Halimbawa, kung gaming ka and you want to know , sige ibibigay sayo. But it will not released. Ang ipupublish is yung speed but all the others, hindi. If you want then you can get information. Ganon iyon, iyon ang gating suggestion dyan. Hindi sya ipupublish but it will be available.

MR. FRANCIS ACERO = With all due respect, you say that is available it just means that the newspapers will publish it. If not in newspapers then not publish it then some blogger will get it and publish it. So, it is better that if you will publish it with yourself it is always a primary source not hearsay. MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Just a quick comment. What we actually advocating is to have a more transparent way of measuring things. Of course, the TelCos and ISPs do their measurements. We already know that but we want to be able to have a measuring tool that the regulator can use and that consumers will use as a basis. Because as if we go the status scope, the status scope is to disuse ookla and akamay and ganon lang talaga sya. In fact, if you go to forums, if you visit online forums and talk about how bad the internet is, anong sinasabi ng OFWs? Sorry, maingay, choppy. But what is that di ba? That is Jitter, packet loss. So, again, it would be good to really know what is causing the problem. And in fact, in other countries, where LIRNEasia was also provided the results of our quality of service experience study, ang isang naging result is that the TelCos and the regulators themselves nakikita yung problem areas. When a subscriber says pangit ang internet, ano ba ang ibig sabihin ng pangit? So, tiningnan nila, anong characteristics or saang aspeto pangit. Okay naman ang download speed, actually na-achieved ang 80% advertised speed. Saan pangit? Nakita nila na ang pangit ay latency sa international segment. So, that is an example of how this measurement can be beneficial to the TelCos and ISPs also. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Roy? ATTY. ROY IBAY = Sir, question. We actually want to clarify even I think the NTC mentioned the equipment will be more or less located here in NCR. Our question is what if for example there is a complainant outside the NCR? Or in the other hand, what if the conditions are far ideal or better in let say areas outside the NCR? How does NTC intend to balance those factors or conditions? For example, if there is a complainant should not be the drive test be conducted if there is a complaint? Or in the other hand, in other areas outside the Metro Manila? I mean, it is clear to say that if Metro Manila more or less would show a certain trend or standard in case the measurement will come out. As in comparison also to the other location outside the Metro Manila that may or may not be equivalent. So, we will just want to raised that question to the NTC. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = The software is downloadable so that you can download measure etc. The measurement in the NCR will be regular measurements. But outside the Metro Manila kung may reklamo, perhaps, the equipment may be, kasi dalawa lang naman yan meron kasing equipment na gagamitin, may hardware component yun. So, yun siguro yung dadalhin nun kung may reklamo. But the equipment released dito lang sa NCR at regular ang measurements dito. So, we will done regularly etc. MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Sir, just to raise an example. Di ba recently sa media yung Cebu Provincial Board nagrereklamo sila? They want to have an investigation of their own to see why their internet service daw is poor. So, if you have something like Cebu Provincial Board trying to figure why their internet service in province is poor then would the NTC equipment be available to them? Kasi may official na reklamo nga Sir. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, that will be done. We are hoping by next year kasi madadagdagan sila ng equipment na bibilhin. So, kapag nadagdagan yan then we can have this equipment station in Cebu and other urban areas. So, iyon po ang gagawin. But ngayon is iisa lang yan so dito lang sa NCR. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Just thinking aloud sa gaming.There is complaint in the gaming. Is the plan considered investigating the problem of the gamers, the requirement? DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = No.

MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Kasi we also have our Technical Working Group Meeting and they are also asking ano bang plan kasi halimabawa yung lowest plan then you are trying to use the gaming talaga sigurong hindi pupwede or for other applications. Di ba? And also yung sa Cebu di ba they are complaining about the speed. Anong plan ba iyon? And anong application ang gagamitin nila? Kasi I think I also mentioned this before, kasi satin din binabalik, maraming variables, you cannot please everybody even the reseller or budget users. MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Just to answer. That is why we are doing this. In methodology, as we have mentioned in previous meetings, we will be the first one who will oppose if the methodology not sound. That is why we want to discuss this here. That is why we want to measure and publish because if you just hear people or means all the publish all the time on this ookla and whatever testing sites are available then there is no way for you to counter those measurements. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Pierre? ENGR. PIERRE TITO GALLA = And if there is solid numbers that we can present, the poor quality claims of anybody can be immediately dismissed. Pero what are you talking about the poor quality? That is what you are trying to say that you are expecting 5MBPS out of you are paying for 2MBPS. That is not fair. So, the presentation of measurement of actual numbers prevents the perception that something is poor. Kasi mayroon ka ng basis to say na you are not receiving for service, in fact, you are receiving service of what you are paying for. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Well, all of the decision should be done by the Commission. The software is downloadable, so any who wants to measure pwede nyang i-download iyon. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = To answer the point which is sometimes it shows unfair usage in some variables that is the status for now na the measurements are already done and there is no control over all the variables because there is no methodology. If you are going to measure down to the resellers they are going to measure their service using ookla with five other people using the internet and probably while downloading. It is not going to be fair and then you are always going to get this complaints and if others or some bloggers or posts also using the ookla that the big companies are offering this too much performance. You are just going to moved and there is going to be no way to repack those things. MR. MEDEL RAMIREZ = Just following your statement because we really do not want the controllables that is why we, TelCos, say that it is up to service. Let say we want to move to another service then we do have some plans. It is up to you choose from. The point is what we advertise is up to and we were going to be putting our balls up to that ball. As you can see we are now again mentioning the uncontrollable. We are trying to do some methodology which is uncontrollable. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = We are already done in the methodology. The thing is let us look at what is going to happen if we do not agree on this methodology. What is going to happen is that the people will keep on publishing their results, fair or unfair. MR. MEDEL RAMIREZ = But the point is, it is clear to the DTI that we are not falsely advertising the service.

MR. FRANCIS ACERO = We are not going to falsely advertising now. All that we want to do is have the market decide where to go. If they believe nga na if they have to get that better service then they should stop complaining about how bandwidth service and realize that that is what they pay for. Ganon lang iyon. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = When the equipment is available dito then the Commission will perhaps request you including the consumer group sit down with our staff that will do the measurements and discuss para there is only one method etc. where everybody agrees na ito ang direction nya etc. Para there will be no issues later on na nung ginawa ito wala ako noon.MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = One quick point. These measurements are not unique to us. So much countries are doing this for a long time. I can provide you of the list of those countries and what their methodologies are and what their parameters are. So, this is not that we are trying to impose what we just want measure. Para may benchmark tayong local. So, this is not something na parang you are doing this for TelCos and ISPs tapos were climb, no. There are so many methodologies out there and regulators have initiated this quality service management and some have even provided through the regulator yung software and web based tool. So this is not something new. It is global practice and if we are worried about all these uncontrollable variables we can always look at what the other countries have been doing not necessarily copy them but paano ba nila inaddress yung controllable variables na iyan. Hindi kasi sya imposible, Sir. In fact, the reason why as the LIRNEasia recommended, if you conduct the measurements you conduct based on the peak and off-peak hour kasi if you have a data set large enough it will actually addressed anomalies in your data. So, you do would not have, let say 100 subscribers testing the internet when it is raining. You would not have that. Kasi sa methodology, we will be very specific about uncontrollable variables, about when to conduct the test and how and who will conduct the test and how to determine the anomalies. Kasi there is way, it is a scientific method. We actually just want to be more scientific about how to characterize the Philippine internet because that is actually right now. When you say Philippine internet people will just say, It really sucks.That is it, so what does it mean? Ako, as a researcher, that is actually my personal interest in this exercise. Whenever I talked to someone who asked me, Bakit ba ang pangit ng internet? Ano ang isasagot ko sa kanya? My family members asked me not all the time because they think I would know better. What do I presented them was I tried to present them what LIRNEasia has been doing. Some of them understand fully, some of them do not. But the thing is we have evidence to prove that. MR. MEDEL RAMIREZ = So, the point is when you turned your relatives what your respond is because the latency is this much, the back lash is this much. Do you think they understand that? Those parameters? And you are trying to tell them? MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Sir, yes, they do because if you reached a certain educational level, I think most of us will understand. You can actually put in lay mans term. Pero ako nga, if you asked me personally I do not think the consumers will really mean to know the technical details. They just need to put a label on those problems, so they put no, bakit ganon ang internet nila.

DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Okay, so mukang na-exaust tayo don sa point na iyon. Any other comment on that issue? Publication ito. Yes, please? MS. MARIA ALELIE GERMAN = Good afternoon everyone. I am Alelie German from DOJ. Given that ISPs agreed to be measure solely on speed and volume, it is okay, but this should preclude the NTC as the regulator to measure other parameters. With regard to publication, okay, ISPs can say na NTC should not publish but regardless there will be other platforms and channel while these results can publish. Like for instance, DOJ, can come up with market study on telecommunications and we can request data from NTC including all of the measurements on Jitter, packet loss and such and we can publish that and we can inform the public. Dapat mawala yung fear sa ISPs because if you are really performing, walang danger. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Siguro, kung i-pupublish mo siguro dapat generalize kasi ang fear nila ay the companies are identified. Siguro what we can do is when you publish, generalize sya walang mention of this and that tulad din ng ookla. Mayroong sinasabi na this is the average speed, NCR, it is general. This is the average measure of latency etc., ganon, without mentioning. Naintindihan ko yung concern nila kasi nga the companies are identified etc. So, yun ang concern nya. But if we publish it without the names of the company, that would not prejudice anybody. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Thank you, Dir. Egay, for mentioning that. Just a short reaction. We are not living in the ideal world and it is a problem. Only, kapag puro reseller lang ang nag-cocompete doon sa lugar, that is fine. That is the source of power objection. Sabi mga, in can be use by any marketing people that will be prejudicial to other carrier. But if the NTC cannot do that without means, you want to measure, for example, even siguro per province without mentioning the names so that you do not have an idea. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = And the results, kasi by company yan, we will give the results to dun sa kumapanya mismo and then ito yung result, ito yung test namin para sayo. But when you publish the result, generalize sya. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = I think you mentioned, Dir.Egay, about on off-com dun sa ginagawa nila. May problema yung ISPs or carriers to to cumpolse their attention to correct kasi mayroon silang pinirmahan di ba? Yung sinasabing self-regulation, mayroon silang pinirmahan na they will have to provide this quality of service. And there is a problem, ano ang unang-unang gagawin? Sige, wag muna pagbayarin yung subscribers pag na-prove mo na may problema talaga sya. Tapos i-cocorect yun until such time kasi may commitment sya. I think maganda yun, may concern sa isang particular na carrier. Kasi bottomline ano bang gusto natin? To improve the services. We have these measurements, we need to improve this. Kasi samin pabor yunb , dadami ang subscribers naming. Pero yung process lang, that will be prejudicial to us particularly kasi yun yung objection namin. MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = If we are going to publish without any move from the ISPs, how will the public make an informed choice about which ISPs is better in a particular area? DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Well, yun din yung back lush nya kasi marketing kasi ito. Ang ibig sabihin kasi nyan is when you publish nariyan ang mga pangalan etc. although they survey based on actual test, yun nga lang it may be due us kasi marketing yan yung sales etc. So, ito yung medyo iniiwasan din na situation. Tama kayo, people has the choice kung san sila etc. So, ito kasi yung ibabalanse natin on what we are going to do to balance this interest, interest ng consumers. So, medyo mahirap hanapan ng middle ground kung paano ko gagawin iyon. MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Sir, lalo na kung network access providers naman sila. Meaning, the TelCos who actually owned the infrastructure and also provide the last mile. Di ba nga sabi natin we cannot compare apples with oranges. But in this case, these are all TelCos and I do not see the value in publishing tapos hindi ilalagay kung sino yung ganong may performance. Because the main reason you want to publish, yung publication po mismo, is to help the public make an informed choice as to whom the better ISP is in a particular area. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = For correction. In fact, while you mentioned earlier we just want to have the basis when they ask bakit pangit ang internet sa Pilipinas? You should be able to answer that, sabi mo nga kanina and that will answer it. Because if you mentioned the names of the companies, you are practically suggesting a fine line interfering with the market forces and regulation. Ang sinasabi mo is teka dito ka. You say kapag pangit nag internet service, bakit? We need to have the form of measurements or at least mayroon tayong pinagbabasehan. That is how we understand it. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = I think you are more appropriate with industry analog. In a case where people have soda, may Coke, may Pepsi. Let say FDA comes in and publish how much. The totality of internet service does not just depend on the speed. Speed is one part but service is also another part. This is just, when we publish this results, its just the speed, its just they experience at the computer. But let say attention to detail, attention to the consumer that place as a consumer to meet at least a bigger part in my selection of an ISP as oppose to their speed. If I have an ISP who works with me to get better speed that is better for me as a consumer. But just to put the data out there because it is agnostic it is not in favor of anyone. Again, what will be the alternative be? The alternative is being called cable using ookla to judge the resellers. That is far more unfair. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = I think progressive naman yung sinabi ni Dir. Cabarios na sinasabing i-pupublish without any means then they will be inform, the specific company, if they are not in accordance or they are not performing in what is expected with them. Is it not that we are all for this? To improve the service? Or do you want to suggest to public to which particular company they want to choose? MR. FRANCIS ACERO = No, there is no suggestion. Measurements are measurements, metrics are metrics. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = We have to go to other industries you are talking about Soda industry, so let us look at what the other industry are doing. For example, they go for the final details on what course they can offer or what they publish? O di ba sila mismo ang naglalagay sa kanilang brochure. Yung DTI ba nilalagay kung anong klaseng makina pinapublish before you can buy a car? Which publication do we go through?

ATTY. ANTHONY FERNANDEZ = Actually sa DTI, if you compare brand X, Y, Z, you cannot name your competitors na Pepsi, Coke, etc. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = Exactly, kaya nga pinagbawal yung indorsement na ganon. ATTY. ANTHONY FERNANDEZ = And then you blind fold and test, kung nakuha and then yun yung i-rereveal mo but you do not reveal the brand of those matters. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = But that is on marketing. This is agnostic. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = That is advertising. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Yes, that is advertising. This is agnostic. This is just the regulator publishing the results of these tests. MR. ENRICO DELOS REYES = But those informations will be use also. Those informations canbe use against a particular company. Kaya nga yung advertisements natin ay brand X lang hindi katulad sa staes na siguro may specific na satin hindi. Sa toothpaste ay brand X. Hindi naman ilalagay. Kung ilalagay nyo yun parang sinasabi nyong Coke versus Pepsi. Kasi gagamitin nila yun, you cannot prevent those marketing people to use those informations. MR. FRANCIS ACERO = Siguro, the more appropriate example will be you brought a car at some point there are statistics will come out. They are the consumers, we are already going to get a credit rating. We are going to get the credit course. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Well, this is the issue now. Wala pang middle ground dito, if none, we can describe here the middle ground. This will be up to the Commission to decide. Meron tayong dalawang positions dito; one is publish without the names of the providers and publish with the names of the provider of the service. May advantage at disadvantages. So, perhaps, we will leave in that way and we will let the Commission consider deciding kung saan doon. Kasi mukang walang middle ground. Two options yan so tingnan natin kung saan dun ang idodopt ng Commission. ATTY. ANTHONY FERNANDEZ = Dapat po sa Methodology, when you do the test dapat agnostic ang brand. Because if later on you have the data of the company and you will not release and high government offices then akin ayaw mo irelease then kukunin ko yan. So dapat from the source agnostic na yun. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = Yes, Grace? MS. MARY GRACE SANTOS = Just put it on record. This will be the first time that there will be measurement for internet service na anonymous in any country, just put it on record. DIR. EDGARDO CABARIOS = That will be the decision of Commission but we do not know yet kung ano decision ng Commission because mukang wala tayong middle ground. You just leave the matter to the Commission. So, ayun nga na-take up natin yung publication side, this is a difficult issue pero malinaw linaw na din that there will be two option that the Commission will take. So, all the others ay madali na lang yung ibang issues. Yung setting standards, tapos na tayo, we agree na hindi natin ilalalagay, publication, ito na yung issue and then the other issue ay madali na lang. Perhaps, what we can do is run through this one ipeprepare naming based on the discussion now yung modification dito sa draft kasi tatanggalin na yung standards dito sa draft and then we will circulate and then we run through and then yung hindi pinagaareehan gayon yun yung lalagyan natin ng bracket for the Commissions side. So, we will meet perhaps, para mabilis ay next week na. We prepare this based on todays discussion. Perhaps, we will meet on Thursday next week so that we will have one week to prepare. We will give you the copy of this siguro Tuesday next week. E-mail po sa inyo. And the notice, buo na iyon, hindi na TWG, those will be entire na, the entire TWG na buo na and then after that present it to the Commission for their decision. Whatever the decision of the Commission ay iyon na ang ipupubilc hearing. Kung magbago pa isip based on public hearing, kung magkaroon pa ng middle grounds during that public hearing that will be define. So, the notice will be send to you by e-mail yong meeting Thursday next week, also copies of this one will be modified. So, other comments pa? Again, thank you very much for coming over. It has been very fruitful malapit na matapos ito. Thank you very much.

Transcribed to the best of my ability.

ELIZABETH G. LAMADRID Stenograpic Reporter I