1236 CO.UNCIL]

The SPEAKER: The voting being equal,I give my casting vote with the Ayes.

Question thus passed.Bill read a second time.

ADJOURNIMENT OF THE HOUSEMR. GRAHAM (Balcatta--DeputY

Premier) (11.46 P.M.): With your indul-gence. Mr. Speaker, I wish to indicate tothe H-ouse that it Is probable there will bea longer dinner break than is usual onThursday evening because of a certainfunction to which, it Is understood, quite anumber of members of Parliament havebeen invited. I move-

That the House do now adjourn.Question Put and passed.

House adjourned at 11.47 p.m.

O-Egxiatnwa GonrilWednesday, the 2nd May, 1973

The PRESIDENT (The Rion. L. C. Diver)took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and readprayers.

QUESTIONS (11): ON NOTICE1. EXMOUTH DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL

ReticulationThe Hon. G. W. BERRY, to the Leaderof the House:

When is it anticipated that workwill be undertaken on the reticula-tion for Exmouth District HighSchool?

The Hon. J. DOLAN replied:A test bore is to be sunk on theschool site in conjunction with adrilling programme shortly to beundertaken for the Town Watersupply.The results of the test bore willdetermine the extent of any reti-culation which can be carried out.

2. EDUCATIONGuidance Officers at Senior High Schools

The Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Leaderof the House:(1) How many Senior High Schools

are in the Metropolitan Region?(2) Of these schools, how many have

the benefit of qualified guidanceofficers on-(a) a full time basis:(b) a part time basis; or(c) no appointment?

(3) (a) How many Senior HighSchools are outside the Metro-politan Region; and

(b) where is each situated?

(4) Of the Senior High Schoolssituated outside the MetropolitanRegion, which schools have thebenefit of qualified *guidance of-ficers on-(a) a full time basis;(bi) a part time basis; or(c) none?

(5Where Senior High Schools do nothave the benefit of a qualifiedguidance officer In any capacity.who is charged with the responsi-bility of offering advice on careeropportunities for students?

(6) Bly what method are qualifiedguidance officers appointed toschools?

('7) If the Education Department hasinsufficient qualified guidance of-ficers to meet all needs throughoutthe State, what remedies are beingimplemented to correct the un-satisfactory situation?

The Ron. J. DOLAN replied:(1) 31.(2) (a)

(b)(c)

31.Nil.Nil.

(3) (a) 16.(b) Albany,

Bunbury,Busselton,Carnarvon,Collie,Eastern Goldfields,Esperance,Geraldton,Hedland,Kattanning,Manjirnup,Merredin,Narrogin,Newton Moore,Northam,Pinjarra.

(4) (a) Albany.Northam,Bunbury.Eastern Goldfields,Geraldton,Narrogin,Newton Moore.

(b) Busselton.(c) Carnarvon,

Collie,Esperance.Hedland.Katanning.Manjimup,Merredin,Pinjarra.

(5) The school Principal is responsibleto ensure that advice in careeropportunities is available tostudents.

(6) Guidance Officer positions are ad-vertised.

1236

[Wednesday..2 May. 19731 1237

(7) The Education Department hasrecruited Personnel as counsellingassistants to train as guidanceofficers.

3. LOCAL GOVERNMENTCatavan Parks and Camping Sites

The Hon. T. 0. PERRY, to the Ministerfor Local Government:(1) What is the definition of a-

(a) Caravan park: and(b) Camping site?

(2) Where on the. South Coast ofWestern Australia are thereCamping sites, as distinct fromCaravan Parks, situated where thepublic can erect tents and haveready access to beaches?

(3) In view of the report on a recentweekend camp at Dunstorough,referred to in The West AustrOaandated 30th April, 1973, and relat-ing to a future Plan for CapeNaturaliste, will the Governmentundertake to make Provision inthis area for a Camping site asdistinct from a Caravan park?

The Hon. R. H. C. STUBhBS replied:(1) (a) In the Draft Model By-laws

(Caravan Parks and CampingGrounds) No. 2 "CaravanPark' means land that isregistered as a caravan Park,with the local authority, con-taining sites for the parkingof caravans for the erectionof camps.

(b) Camp site is not defined, but"camp" includes portable shedor hut, tent, tent fly, awning.blind or other structure whichIs erected and designed orfitted or capable of temporaryuse as a habitation for dwel-ling or sleeping purposes.

(2) This information is not availablein the records of the Local Gov-ernment Department.

(3) No such undertaking could begiven at Present, but the matterwill be investigated.

4. HISTORIC ANCHORSEsperane

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, tothe Leader of the House:(1) When is it expected that the treat-

ment of the anchors found nearEsperance will be completed by theWestern Australian Museum Con-servation Laboratory?

(2) Which of the two anchors has theFederal Minister for Transportgiven to South Australia?

(3) Is it expected that the remaining.anchor will remain in this State?

5.

(4) From what public authorities.historic Organisation, or otherbodies, has the State Governmentreceived requests to house and dis-play such an anchor?

The Hon. J. DOLAN replied:(1) The Federal Minister for Trans-

port will give authority for activetreatment to commence shortly.When active treatment com-mences, it can be expected it willtake about 8 months to complete.

(2) We have no information.(3) The State Government has ap-

proached the Commonwealth Gov-ermnent with a request for ananchor to remain in the State.

(4) (1) The Esperance Shire Council.supported by the Member forSouth Province in the Legis-lative Council.

(ii) The Esperance Bay HistoricalSociety, supported by theRoyal Western Australian His-torical Society.

(III) The Trustees of the WesternAustralian museum (with aview to its eventual display ina municipal museum inEsperance).

EDUCATIONUncontrollable Children

The Hon. W. Rt. WITHERS, to theLeader of the House:(1) What departmental action is

taken when any child disruptsclasses by destroying teaching aids,attacking the teacher, discardinggenital covering, using obscenelanguage Or being generally un-controllable to the point where theclass cannot absorb the teachingbecause of the disruptive Pupil'spresence?

(2) Who assesses the situation for cor-rective action?

(3) What type Of Institution is estab-lished to train, discipline or houseuncontrollable pupils?

The Hon. J. DOLAN replied:(1) The child is suspended from

school.(2) The Headmaster reports this

action to the Education Depart-ment and an officer with the re-quired Qualifications and experi-ence is asked to investigate thematter.

(3) Institutions controlled or support-ed -by the Community WelfareDepartment are used for suchchildren.I

138(COUNCIL.

BINGOUse of Trades Hall

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH. to theChief Secretary:(i) What is the maximum number of

bingo games permitted in any oneyear to "a charitable organization"making application to play thegame?

(2) Upon how many occasions is thegame being Played at Trades Hall,Beaufort Street, Perth?

(3) What organisations. are being per-mitted to play bingo 'at TradesHall?

The Hon. Rt. H. C. STUBBS replied:(1) Not more than 25 Bingo sessions

will be granted to any one bodyor organization during a calendaryear.A Bingo session means any periodnot exceeding three hours In dura-tion in which a number of Bingogames not exceeding thirty areplayed.

(2) There has only been one sessionplayed at the Trades Hall up to2nd May.

(3) Trades Hall Social Club.A permit has been issueo to aJoint committee of Lions (201-L)and the Torchbearers for Legacyfor five sessions commencing on3rd May.

EDUCATIONIsolated District High Schools:

UpgradingThe Hon. G. W. BERRY, to the Leaderof the House:(1) Is It the Government's intention

to have fourth and fifth yearclasses In isolated District HighSchools?

(2) If so-(a) when can schools such as

Exmouth expect fourth andfifth year classes;

(b) when can such schools expectto have Library ResourceCentres provided;,

(c) will additional classrooms beprovided to allow for greaterflexibility and timetabling;

(d) will staffing be provided toallow for greater specialist.supervision?

The Hon. J. DOLAN replied:(1) The Education Department's policy

with regard to the development ofDistrict High Schools is set out Inthe Education Circular for June.

1972. The relevant quotation isas follows:-

"While District High Schools, intheir ultimate development, maycater for grades one to twelve,such a development will be sub-Sect to the educational restric-tions of being able to provideviable upper school courses, thespecial teaching facilities andsuch other courses as the De-partment considers are war-ranted."

(2) (a) No District High School hasbeen provided with fourth andfifth year classes as yet andno timetable has been deter-mined for the establishmentof such classes. IntensiveInvestigative work is beingcarried out at present by De-partmental officers.

(b) Answered by (2) (a).(c) Yes, In cases where there Is

need.(d) Yes.

8. ELECTRICITY SUPPLIESWyndham

The Hon, W. R. WITHERS, to theLeader of the House:(1) Does the State Electricity Com-

mission propose to take over theWyndham Electricity undertak-Ing?

(2) if the answer to (1) is "Yes" whenis the Proposed date of take-over?

(3) If the State Electricity Commis-sion takes over the Wyndhamundertaking-(a) will It increase the domestic

rates and service charges toalign with the current StateElectricity Commission charg-es within the Shire; or

(b) will the current State Elec-tricity Commission charges bereduced to align with the cur-rent Wyndham charges?

The Hon. J. DOLAN replied:(1) to (3) The Commission proposes

to approach the Wyndham-EastKimberley Shire Council to nego-tiate the Inclusion of the Wynd-ham Electricity Undertaking inthe Country Towns' AssistanceScheme before the end of thismonth. Takeover dates and tariffscannot be set until the negotia-tions are concluded.

9. ESPERANCE SCHOOLStaff Room and Offices

The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, tothe Leader of the House:

Is It intended to include therenovating and extensions of the

1238

[Wednesday, 2 May, 1971 1239

teachers' amenities room and staffoffices at the Esperance PrimarySchool in this year's budget?

The Ron. J. DOLAN replied:Yes. It will be included in the1973-74 budget.

10. This question was postponed.

11. LAND RESUMPTIONJoondalup-Moore River Area

The Hon. CLriTE GRIFFTHS, to theLeader of the House:

F'urther to my question on Tuies-day, fst May, 1973-(1) How many owners were inter-

viewed concerning sale oftheir properties?

(2) What were the reactionsthose owners interviewed?

The Hon. J1. DOLAN replied:(1) Eleven.

of

(2) Seven owners expressed oppositionto sale of their properties. Theremaining four were prepared tonegotiate.

LIQUOR ACT'Disallowance of Licensing Court Rule:

MotionDebate resumed, from the 1st May. on

the following motion by The Hon. 1. G.Medcalf-

That Rule 13A of the LicensingCourt Rules made under the LiquorAct, 1970-1972, relating to the produc-tion of accounts on objection beinglodged to the granting of a licence ora provisional certificate, published Inthe Government Gazette on the 30thMarch, 1973, and laid upon the Tableof the House on the 10th April, 1973,be and Is hereby disallowed.

THE HON. R. THOMPSON (SouthMetropolitan-Minister for CommunityWelfare) 14.46 P.m.]: In moving to disallowrule 13A of the Licensing Court Rules aspublished In the Government Gazette onthe 30th March, 1973. The Hon. I. G. Med-calf made a number of criticisms of therule.

The honourable member first pointedout that the rule in its own terms placesno limit on the period back for whichbooks and statements of account of alicensee objector must be produced for in-spection, whereas the present practice Isthat an objecting licensee is required toproduce at the hearing only the past twoyears' trading results.

The honourable member has also drawnattention to the fact that it would bepossible for a person to make one applica-tion for a license In a particular area, andthus be able to inspect the books of accountof licensee objectors to that applicationwhen, really, his only motive may have

been to use it for another Purpose onanother occasion In support of a differentapplication. The honourable member pro-ceeded to say that while that sort of useof the Process was doubtless not what thecourt intended in making the rule, it wouldbe impossible for the court to Prevent suchan abuse of the process; because, in hisview, the court would have no way of prov-Ing the purpose for which an applicationwas made.

The honourable member then drewspecial attention to the question of con-fidentiality of the information which wouldhave to be submitted by objecting licenseesunder the rule. He points out that evenif the terms of the court's instruction werefollowed, there would be nothing to pre-vent a Person entitled to examine the booksof account from making extracts or notesof the confidential information containedtherein. There would appear to be littledoubt that the Period of seven days pro-vided for inspection under the rule wouldgive much greater opportunity for extract-ing confidential information from books ofaccount than Is available under the presentPractice, whereby the books of account arereally only open for examination duringthe course of the hearing.

The honourable member also expresseda view that It Is making a farce of therules If the court, having made the rule,then Issues an instruction which he sayscuts down its effect. I must say that Iwould have thought It quite regular and inthe ordinary course of proper conduct bythe court of its affairs for It to Issue in-structions of this nature, so long as thoseinstructions do not contravene or Infringethe terns of Its rules.

However, while it appears that the rulemight be capable of modification to meetsome of the honourable member's objec-tions, I do not see that it would be easilycapable of amendment to meet all hiscriticisms. The rule, of course, Is onewhich the court did not Initiate in its owninterest: it is one which it made inresponse to representations by counselPractising in Its jurisdiction for a betterOpportunity effectively to cross-examineobjector licensees on issues concerned withthe necessity for a new license and thequestion whether the reasonable require-ments of the neighbourhood or the affectedarea were being met.

Accordingly, the Government takes thestance that if members opposite feel thatthe rule Is so unsatisfactory as to warrantits being disallowed, then the Governmentwill not oppose the motion for disallow-ance.

THE RON, I. G. MEDCALF (Metropoli-tan) t4.50 p.m.]: I thank the Minister forhis very Prompt comments on what I1 saidlast night. I appreciate that he has re-peated a6 number of the arguments I putin order to substantiate the view that thisrule should be disallowed.

[COUNCIL.

I would like to comment very briefly onone point he mentioned: which is, thathe believed it was quite proper for theLicensing Court to issue an instructionwhich was not contrary to a rule of Parlia-ment. I quite agree that there is nothingto prevent the Licensing Court Issuing aninstruction which is not contrary to a ruleof Parliament. I concede that there isnothing wrong with the Licensing Courttaking such action. My criticism was thatin the same breath-and I think thosewere the words I used, if they can be usedin connection with the Licensing Court-the court had promulgated a rule and aninstruction which cuts down the effect ofthe rule. I made that point to illustratethat even the Licensing Court believed therule was ton wide, and this appears to havebeen substantiated by the Minister's com-ment that the rule was not initiated bythe court at all but resulted from represen-tations made to it by one or more membersof the legal profession who apparently re-quired more time to examine the books.

I also agree it is quite legitimate forcounsel to have time to examine the books,and that was my object in proposing anamendment to the rule. I believe wherethe rule went wrong was that it was toowide from the beginning. Had it not beenso wide it would not have been necessaryfor me to move for its disallowance. How-ever, I appreciate the views expressed bythe Minister and the indication that theGovernment will not oppose the motionfor the disallowance of the rule.

Question put and passed.

WESTERN AUSTRALIAN MARINE ACTAMENDMENT BILL

Third ReadingBill read a third time, on motion by The

Hon. J. Dolan (Leader of the House), andtransmitted to the Assembly.

TAXI-CARS (CO-ORDIINATION ANDCONTROL) ACT AMENDMENT BILL

Second ReadingDebate resumed from the 18th April.

THE HON. G. C. MacKINNON (LowerWest) [4.54 pi.m.]: This Hill is not onewhich Is likely to excite anyone very much.I was rather interested to note that whenthe original Act was passed in 1963, Mr.Wise, who was then the Leader of theOpposition in this House, said on page 2520of Mansard-

SIt would be a remarkable thing ifuniversal approval among them couldbe obtained for any single method ofcontrol of their operations by a board.

He was referring to the taxi drivers. Fur-ther down* on the same page he said-

So they are engaged in an industrywhich is difficult to regiment or con-trol by legislation that is likely to meetwith the approval of a majority.

I mention that because it speaks well forthe Act which was finally passed in that ithas operated so satisfactorily. I think ithas worked exceedingly well in regimientingthe industry.

I believe we Could have just as easilydone without this Bill, but it has beenprinted and it is here, and I see no reasonwhy we should oppose It. It emanatesfrom a report to the Minister following theinvestigations of Mr. Smith, who did aworthy and careful job. I believe the in-vestigation was instituted mainly becauseof a few dissidents who were members ofthe Transport Workers' Union, which hasreceived some publicity of late, and I un-derstand it would be difficult for the Min-ister to deny them.

Mr. Smith's report was noteworthy main-ly for the lack of any great desire to makechanges. He suggested some tidying upmoves and the like, the bulk of whichhave been accepted by the Minister andwritten into this Bill to amend the parentAct. A few of the definitions will bechanged, and a new one for "taxi-stand"will be inserted to make it possible to takeaction against anyone who utilises a taxi-stand as a convenient parking place.

The representation on the board is tobe changed, and this is a matter aboutwhich one could argue. It does not seemto make much difference to the way theTaxi Control Hoard will operate. Pre-viously the members of the board were theCommissioner or the Deputy Commissionerof Transport, a member of the PoliceForce, a representative of local authorities,a representative of the W.A. Taxi Opera-tors' Association, a representative of thetaxi owners, and a representative of theMetropolitan Transport Trust. It is Pro-posed that the board should now comprisethe Commissioner or the Deputy Commis-sioner of Transport, a representative oflocal authorities, a representative of theMetropolitan Transport Trust, and threepersons representing taxi owners, opera-tors, and drivers. This is a very minoramendment.

I would like to query the method offinancing the board. Members are awarethat the board receives some revenue frompremiums paid for taxi plates. In 1968-69this revenue amounted to about $13,500; in1969-70. $36,000: in 1970-71, $46,000; in1971-72, about $59,000; and in 1972-73,about $67,000. The premiums are paid overa period of five years, and much of thisrevenue will run out.

It seems to mec a haphazard method offinancing a board, and I would havethought it preferable for the premiums tobe paid Into Consolidated Revenue, and toarrange a method of financing the boardother than from the receipt of premiumpayments and the annual registration feesof $25. Again, it is a minor matter, be-cause if the Premium Payments run out

(7Wednesday, 2 May, 19731 14

the Government will have to introduce anamendment proposing another method offinancing the board.

The matter of the repossession of plateshas been tidied up and the board is to begiven the power to repossess plates If feesare not paid, or if for some other reasonthat action is deemed necessary. On oc-casions substitute vehicles are used by taxioperators, and the Dill provides that asubstitute vehicle must carry the originalplates in order that it may be identified.

The matter of the repurchase of taxiplates has been adjusted so that a fellowwho has paid his premium for two orthree years will receive a proportionateamount for the sale of his plates, becausehe is deemed to have received a certainamount of service from them. The newprovision takes cognisance of the use ofthe plates during the period the taxi oper-ator has held them.

The measure contains one or two othermatters of a tidying up nature, which Ido not think will unduly excite anybody.Suffice it to say that the provisions shouldmake it a little easier for the industry tobe controlled. I see no reason to cavilat those provisions or to split straws aboutthem. I think the Industry will continueto proceed in a reasonably amicable fash-ion. My only comment is that I think weshould be careful of small groups withinan industry which can create sufficienttrouble as to Induce the Government toconduct an expensive inquiry, which Inthis case produced only machinery amend-ments of little real importance. I supportthe Bill.

THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-EastMetropolitan-Leader of the House) (5.02p.m.l: I thank Mr. MacKinnon for hissupport of the Bill. Perhaps I could comr-ment that some of the requests for an in-quiry came from members of the T.W.U.;but the majority of requests came fromlease drivers who seined to be concernedabout the Industry.

I take advantage of this opportunityto pay public tribute to Mr. Smith. Hecarried his investigations into the otherStates and examined all aspects of thetaxi industry to see whether he couldIntroduce to our city something reallyworth while.

The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: He was ex-tremely thorough.

The Hon. J1. DOLAN: He was verythorough and did not miss any aspect- Weare just beginning to realise the benefitswe can expect in the future. We have anew chairman of the board. He is a verystern man and is ensuring that taxi driversthemselves make the industry work notonly to their own satisfaction but to thesatisfaction of the public. After all, the

4431

taxi industry's main concern should be thewelfare of the public, and that is the pol-icy the present board intends to follow.

As Mr. MacKinnon suggested, we willalways have amendments brought down tothis Act. Probably they will be minoramendments which will become necessaryas we see what effect the legislation hason the Industry. If we find any mistakesI am sure the Government will bringfurther measures to the House to correctthem.

Question Put and passed.Bill read a second tine.

In Committee, etc.Bill passed through Committee with-

out debate, reported without amendment1and the report adopted.

BILLS (2): RECEIPT AND FIRSTREADING

1. Distressed Persons Relief Trust Bill.Bill received from the Assembly; and.

on motion by The Hon. B.Thompson (Minister for Commun-ity Welfare), read a first time.

2. Resumption Variation (Boulder-Karn-balda Road) Bill.

Bill received from the Assembly; and,on motion by The Hon. R. H. C.Stubbs (Minister for Local Govern-ment), read a first time.

FIREARMS BILLSecond Reading

Debate resumed from the 1st May.

THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-East Met-ropolitan-Leader of the House) [5.08p.m.]: Firstly I would like to refer to theincident which occurred in this Chambera little over a week ago when this Bill wasbeing debated and we saw what one mightcall a mild demonstration in the publicgallery. I refer to this only to point outthat even in such an excellent organisa-tion one finds people who lack a certailnamount of control. This is particularlydisturbing when those concerned are as-sociated with the use of firearms. Suchpeople should be extra careful.

I was a little surprised to see In TheWest Australian yesterday the followingadvertisement-

SHOOTERS are invited to attend inthe Gallery of the Legislative Councilat 7.30 p.m. Tuesday May 1 to hearthe debate on proposed amendmentsto the Firearms Act.PLEASE LISTEN TO RADIO 6IX at5.55 p.m. in case change of time.Signed SHOOTING SPORTS FOUN-DATION.G. Pow, Hon. Sec.

1241

1242 1 COUNCIL.]

I had never heard of that organisation; The Hon. J. DOLAN: I feel Pressuresit has made no approaches to me or to mydepartment. Consequently I was a littleconcerned about the organisation and Ihad inquiries made to see whether any-thing was known about it. I did, of course.know the name "G. Pow" because thatgentleman happens to be the President ofthe Sporting Shooter's Association. Theinvestigation revealed something which Iregard as not being in keeping with mystandards, at any rate.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Before you goon, would you tell us who made the in-vestigation?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I made personal in-vestigations and asked my officers whetherthey knew anything about the organisa-tion, anid they furnished me with certaininformation.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Does the ex-pression "my officers" mean the Police De-partment?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes, the officerswere from the section of the Police Depart-ment which is conerned with firearms andguns. I was informed that a notice ap-peared in the window of a shop in MurrayStreet. As a result of short notice I wasunable to glean the actual store from whichthis notice was obtained; all I know isthat it was obtained from a firearmsdealer. The notice is as follows-

Dear Sir,Attached please find a Membership

Sheet to Join "The Shooting SportsFoundation."

It would be appreciated if you couldearnestly solicite as many "Shooters"or interested people to join this FOUN-DATION as URGENTLY as possible tosupport our amendments to the"FIREARMS BILL" which is at pre-sent going through the Committeestage In the Legislative Council, or anyother oppressive Legislation which maydevelop in the future.

Kindly forward the completed formtogether with the membership fee'sdirect to the Hon. Tres. R. J. FRANK-LIN, at the above address and a re-ceipt will be issued and a new formreturned. It may be added that anydonation over the 20c: would be mosthelpful.

YOUR CO-OPERATION IS MOSTURGENTLY REQUIRED.

Yours faithfully,R. J. FRANKLIN.

Hon. Tres.R. J, Franklin & Co. happens to be alicensed firearms dealer at the addressmentioned; that is. 519 Murray Street. Ifeel that an undesirable element is creep-ing into this matter.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I would likeyou to tell us what you feel.

are being exerted on people.The Hon. Clive Griffiths: We will have

something to say about pressures beingbrought to bear later on.

The Hon. P. D. Willmott: This alwayshappens in regard to legislation.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Perhaps it does;but I have not experienced this sort ofpressure..

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I can rememberan occasion when you must have exper-ienced a certain amount of pressure. Doyou remember the occasion when youplaced on the Table of the House a petitionregarding another member's abortion re-form legislation?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Does the Leaderof the Opposition think that placing apetition on the Table of the House Isyielding to pressure?

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I did not saythat.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourablemember intimated it.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I said thatsomebody must have exercised some pres-sure upon you or made some representationto you.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am prepared toplace on the Table of the House petitionswith which I totally disagree if the peoplein my electorate ask me to do so. Thefact that I placed a petition with which Ihappened to agree on the Table of theHouse does not mean that pressure wasplaced upon me to do so. I do not yieldto pressure.

The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You areangry with Mr. Franklin only because hisopinions do not coincide with yours.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: No. the people herepresents are engaged in the business ofselling firearms and ammunition; they arenot the people with whom the Bill is mainlyconcerned. The Bill is mainly concernedwith the users of firearms. That gentle-man has entered into this argument for thesame purpose as many others have enteredinto it; that is. for what they can get outof it.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You seem to beupset about it.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: He did really up-set me because in this House we set excel-lent standards and we do not want anygroups putting on a demonstration such asthe one we witnessed the other night.

The Hon. Clive Griffiths: What demon-stration the other night?

Several members interjected.The PRESIDENT: Order!

[Wednesday. 2 May, 19731 14

The Hon. J. DOLAN: First of all I wishto refer to the Victorian Act because somepeople seem to think that Victoria has in-troduced an Act which is the be-all andend-all concerning firearms. As far as mydepartment and I are concerned we willcontinue to oppose what is contained in theVictorian Act; that is, the principle thatall one must do is get a license, after whichit is possible for one to have as manyweapons as one pleases, because no recordIs kept. That is one thing I will not standfor while I remain the Minister. What any-one else does subsequently is his business,but I will not be a party to anything whichlessens the control the Police Departmentin this State has over firearms.

The Hon. 0. C. Maci~innon:. Would younot abide by a Cabinet decision if themajority of your colleagues overruled you?

The H-on. J. DOLAN: Under some cir-cumstances I would have no hesitationwhatever In resigning my position In orderto be true to my principles.

Another aspect is that one group is in-terested in one angle, but other -groups-such as women's organisations and so onwho write me letters regularly-seen tothink that this Bill Is so wide that almostanyone can obtain a firearm on demand.

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: Have suchpeople read the Bill?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think they haveread it more closely and more disinterest-edly than many others who come here andstage demonstrations.

The Hon. Clive Griffiths: What is thisdemonstration business?

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What were thedemonstrations?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Do not memberscall It a demonstration when the Presidenthas to call people to order and when, on anumber of occasions, the policeman has tocomplain about behaviour?

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: On a numberof occasions?

The Hon. J. DOLAN- Yes, on at leastthree occasions, and then on anotheroccasion the President had to call those inthe gallery to order. If that is not ademonstration I do not know what is.

The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: The Presi-dent has called me to order once or twice,but no-one would suggest I was demon-strating.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: My recollectionIs that some of them clapped because youmade a comical remark.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It was not becauseof something I said, but because of some-thing someone else said.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That shouldnot upset you then.

The Hon. J. DOLAN. It did not upsetme.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You seemrather upset now.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It might be advis -able if members were aware of what theVictorians think of their so-called wonder-ful Act. I have here a leading article froma well-known column In a Melbourne news-paper, the Melbourne Truth. I might addthat I am not a regular subscriber to thispublication. The article appeared on Sat-urday, the 14th April, which is a little overa fortnight ago. I consider it would bewell worth while for members to listen toit and then they will obtain first-handknowledge of what a newspaper in theState which is supposed to have the be-alland end-au in firearms legislation thinksabout that legislation. The headline, ingreat black letters is, "Criminals laugh atour crazy gun laws". The article reads-

VICTORIA'S, gun laws are a farce!£The legislation, which was imple-

mented on January I this year, pro-vides that anybody who wants to shootfirearms must pay $2 a year for alicence,

SIMPLE ANSWERAll the shooter has to do is hand

over his cash, record his name andaddress and sign the licence.

It would have been simple to provideon the licence-and a copy to be filed-a space to write the serial numberof the weapon or weapons. All fire-arms have such numbers.

That way, a firearm found at thescene of any crime could quickly betraced to the owner.

A lot of top policemen confidentlyexpected that would happen. Theyexpected the legislation to help themin their jobs.

Otherwise it would have been merelya method of raking in more cash forthe Government coffers.

NOW IT MUST BE EXPOSED ASTHAT-PRECISELY.

OPPORTUNITYOne would have assumed that legis-

lators would grasp any opportunity tocatch offenders using guns.

A policeman, questioned by Strewth,estimated there arc 250,000 rifles andshotguns in this State.

That represents a cool $500,000 ayear for MR. HAMER'S GOVERN-MENT TO SPEND-for killing a singlebird with a single stone and allowingthe real prey to escape.

Such legislation is fairly easily re-vised.

It would at least justify to thethousands of honest, responsibleshooters the paying out of $500,000 ayear l

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The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: Surely you did err Australia has the best in the Corn-

torian Act from the Melbourne Truth?The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am quoting an

article in relation to that Act, Justas every member has at some time orother read from newspaper articles in sup-port of his argument.

The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: Would It notbe better for you to read the Act Itselfand not from the Melbourne Truth?

The Hon. J1. DOLAN: I am giving anexpression of opinion by a Melbournenewspaper.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You must ad-mit you read that article with great em-phasis.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Of course I dowhen I consider that the article I am read-ing contains a message which I wish toput across.

The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You willbe quoting from the King's Cross Whis pernext.

The Hon. J1. DOLAN: I now wish to re-fer to a number of comments by variousmembers concerning the definition of'firearms" in the legislation. One of thosemembers was Mr. Willmott who was thefirst speaker following the Introduction ofthe Bill. He read a submission he hadreceived from the Shooters Suppliers As-sociation. The members of that associa-tion are engaged in the business of sellingguns and ammunition. That is their busi-ness.

The Hon. F. D. Wlllmott: Of courseit is.

The Hon. J1. DOLAN: I am delighted thehonouirable member agrees with me. Ofcourse, the more the members of that as-sociation can sell and the easier it is forpeople to obtain guns the more their busi-nesses will thrive. I have another view topresent and I intend to do so. The asso-ciation writes-

In general we feel the whole Act isout of step with the recent Acts-

I do not know why the association hasused the plural in this instance. Tocontinue-

-brought into Victoria and proposedlegislation in N.S.W.

This letter was written by a group whichseems to know all when really it knowsnothing. The submission continues-

It seems likely that S.A. and QSLD.will adopt the Victorian Act.

Since I have been the minister for PoliceI have bad the opportunity to attend andopen a conference of Police Commission-ers from all parts of Australia and fromNew Zealand and their opinion about Actsrelating to firearms and guns is that West-

monwealth or in New Zealand; and whatis more it Is the sort of Act they wouldlove to have in their own States and NewZealand. The only person who evidentlydoes not fall into line with that belief isthe Minister for Police in Victoria. Icould not believe that Victoria would comeinto line with New South Wales. That willbe the day when New South Wales andVictoria get together on anything, whetherit be a legal matter or a matter of anyother kind!

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: There is al-ways a first time.

Te Hon. J1. DOLAN: For example, NewSouth Wales had a standard gauge rail-way, but that was not good enough forVictoria which introduced a 5 ft. 3 in. line.In sport, Victoria has one code for footballand New South Wales has another. Eventhe racehorses run in different directions.In Melbourne they run anti-clockwisewhile in Sydney they run clockwise. OneState will not have a bar of what is donein the other State. Victoria has an Actwhich throws open the position concern-ig guns and it exercises no control over

their acquisition; yet it is thought by somePeople that New South Wales would goalong with it. I guarantee that New SouthWales, Queensland, and South Australiawill not have a bar of that legislation.They may include little snippets of it hereand there, but they will not go alongwith the main Principle.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You knowthose two lots of horses to which you re-fered. do they both try to win?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Horses are mostadaptable animals. I often wish humanswere like them. They win racesin Melbourne and then go to Sydney andwin them there and some from Sydneywill win races there and then go to Mel-bourne and win in that city. In fact Iknow the name of one which is quite ap-plicable to the legislation under discus-sion; that is. Gunsynd. He won in bothplaces.

The Ron. Clive Griffiths: Tell me whyyou went to a great deal of trouble to tellus when You introduced the Bill that cer-tain provisions were identical with those inthe Victorian legislation.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Perhaps in Com-mittee the honourable member can quotethe passages In which I went to greatpains to tell members something about theVictorian Legislation.

The submission of the Shooters Sup-pliers Association continues-

The Commissioner of Police has in-formed us many times over the pastfew years that they desired the adop-tion of a uniform National Firearms

[Wednesday, 2 May. 19731 14

Act. On the basis of this bill and whathas, been adopted by Victoria and webelieve-

The members of the association are aboutthe only ones who do. To continue-

-will be adopted by other States,W.A. will be the only State out ofline.

The following is the statement to which Ireally wish to refer-

Eastern States-Members will notice how the associationrefers to the Eastern States and not just toVictoria. To continue-

-are licensing the person not the fire-arm.

That throws the position wide open forcriminals and anyone else to obtain pos-session of a weapon. Of course peoplecan always obtain them illegally by break-ing into a shop which sells them.

The association states that the Com-missioner of Police has informed It manytimes that he desires a uniform nationalfirearms Act, and I go along with that be-cause it would be most desirable. How-ever, such an Act must have some teethand must exercise the control which mostpeople want. I am not including, of course,the irresponsible people and those in thecriminal classes because they do not desireany restrictions.

I asked the commissioner whether hewould comment on the submission and heconfirmed that he would go along 'with anational firearms Act with the proviso thatthe national Act did not in any way weakenthe police control of firearms in this State.He indicated that should the Act be inclin-ed to do this, he would be opposed to it.In other words, he would support a nationalAct provided other States were prepared tostrengthen their legislation to fall into linewith the Western Australian standards.

I would now like to refer to the latestsubmission which was that of Mr. Medcalfwho spoke last night. one thing I mustsay is that he did obtain and study a copyof the Victorian Act. I value Mr. Medealf'sopinion and I took particular note of whathe said. I would like to comment on a fewof his remarks so that he will know theattitude of the department. I must em-phasise that what I intend to say is notsubmitted in any critical sense becausesome of the suggestions the honourablemember made are well 'worthy of furtherconsideration.

The provisions of the Victorian legisla-tion in regard to the issue of firearmpermits to primary producers, free ofcharge, was considered. However, the onlyadvantage when compared with our legis-lation is the saving of a license fee. TheVictorian legislation is more restrictivethan ours in this respect.

I cannot see the justification for anydifferentiation. Primary producers shouldnot have any more right to special con-sideration in connection with flirearm li-tenses than anybody else. Each case mustbe considered on its merits. I am surePrimary producers would not want specialconsideration.

The Ron. L. A. Logan: They have tocontrol vermin.

The Hon, J. DOLANI- The measure beforeus makes ample provision for that. Em-ployees or members of their families canuse the firearms of primary producers,under the'r supervision, provided permis-sion has been given to shoot vermin. Underthe Victorian legislation the only type offirearm which an employee may use is apea rifle-that Is, a .22-or a shot gun.Furthermore, the farmer can only usethese firearms himself on his own property.Apparently the farmer must license anyfirearm he wishes to use elsewhere. Like-wise, the employee must obtain a licenseto use any firearm-other than a pea rifleor shot gun-on his employer's property.

Clause 8 (1)(i), of the proposed FirearmsBill provides for an employee to useany of his employer's firearms on theproperty for the purpose of destroyingvermin. The employee may be a bettershot, Perhaps, than the farmer, but thefarmer is entirely responsible for his em-ployee exercising, under his direction, thegreatest possible care. This is identical tothe exemption contained in our currentlegislation; namely, the Firearms and GunsAct, in section 9 paragraph (g).

Furthermore, regulation 29B of the cur-rent Act-the Firearms and Guns Act-provides-

Where the owner of a firearm whichhas been licensed desires that anyother eligible person residing in hishousehold shall also hold a licence inrespect of such firearm and endorsesthe latter's application in writing, nofee shall be payable In respect of anysuch further licence.

I wish to comment next on clause 11 ofthe Bill In respect of which a query-orPerhaps it was only a comment-was made.Clause 11 does not refer to restrictions butto the circumstances under which a licensemay be approved. The Provision Is similarto that contained in the current Act andis not used to discriminate against anybona tde applicant. The honourablemember is correct in suggesting that bona.ftde membership of an approved shootingclub, or bona fide engagement In primaryproduction is a sufficient "reason" for re-quiring a firearm on license. In otherwords, if a person is a member of a reput-able shooting association of any kind or Isa Primary producer, provided he Is a nor-mal person a license would be grantedwithout any trouble whatsoever.

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At present the only condition imposedon a firearm license is in regard to alicense granted in respect of a pistol, thelicense for which was approved in view ofthe applicant's bona Mte engagement intarget shooting competition within arecognised club.

In fact, over the Easter period the Aus-tralian Pistol Shooters' Association cham-pionships were held in the Fremantle area.Mr. Harman, a member In another place,opened the championships. People camefrom all parts of the Commonwealth. TheAustralian Pistol Shooters' Association isa reputable organisation and, of course, theParticipants received permission to bringtheir pistols into this State.

One or two members said that pistolsand firearms can be brought into WesternAustralia from another State. The peoplein reputable organisations, such as the oneI have mentioned, do it in the correct way.They notify the police and care Is taken.Of course there is always a possibilitythat a firearm or pistol could be stolen.For this reason, there is a close checkon the numbers.

Clause 21 of the Firearms Bill providesthe authority whereby a restriction, limi-tation, or condition, may be imposed onthe issue of a license, permit, or approvaland provides a penalty for failure tocomply with such restriction, limitation,or condition.

The Intention is to allow discretion fora restriction to be imposed if such seemsdesirable in the public interest, having re-gard for the particular circumstances con-cerned.

If any restriction, limitation, or condi-tion imposed by the comnmissioner underclause 21 were unreasonable it would notwithstand an appeal under clause 22. Inother words, if a person feels aggrievedin any way he has the right to appeal.At this stage I mention that I am quiteprepared to delete the clause which re-stricts any person-say, a manufacturer-from appealing to a higher court. Mr.Medealf referred to this and I have giventhe roetter my keen consideration. I hadhis comments sent to my office so that Icould re-examine the position. By deletingthis provision, opportunity would be giv-en for an appeal to a higher court. Ithank Mr. Medcalf for bringing this tomy attention. If a person feels aggrievedhe will have the opportunity to appeal.Daring the appeal all the reasons for hiswanting it, the type of person he is, andwhether he has fulfilled the conditionswould be brought out. Every safeguardwould be taken. Even if a person went tothe High Court, and won the appeal everyaspect would be aired. When he eventu-ally won the right to a weapon, we wouldbe quite safe, I guarantee, in letting himhave that weapon.

The provision, allowing a license to beIssued subject to a restriction, limitation,or condition, may well allow the issue ofa license which would not be approvedwithout such restriction. Sometimes, ofcourse, there is difficulty in connectionwith a license. If there is no restriction,limitation, or condition imposed, the com-missioner or his appointed officers wouldnot be prepared to grant a license. Theyare granted only under certain conditions.

I will draw an analogy with driving licens-es. Sometimes people's licenses are with-drawn. Sometimes a person can obtaina particular license which will entitle himnto use a vehicle between certain hours.Consequently, no great hardship is imposedon him.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: A person canapply far such a license.

The Hon. J. DOLAN* Yes, a person ap-plies and goes to the court where thelicense may be granted with certain re-strictions. Licenses would not be grantedunless the applicant was prepared to abideby the limitations.

The honourable member also referred toclause 23, subclauses (3) and (4). 1 suag-gest that a closer examination of thesesubelauses will show that they both referonly to unlicensed firearms-or firearmsnot provided for in clause 8. The only dif-ference is that a greater penalty is pro-vided if the offence occurs at night: thatis, between the hours of seven in the even-ing and seven the following morning. Sec-tion 12 subsections (2) and (3) of the Fire-arms and Guns Act makes similar pro-vision. Subelauses (3) and (4) of clause 23of the Bill in no way restrict the use oflicensed firearms.

I seriously suggest that this provisionwas taken from the present Act in whichthe penalties are greater if a person isin possession of an unjicensed firearmbetween 7.00) p.m. and 7.00 am. I. thinkthis is a little out of date. Criminals nowhold up banks In broad daylight. Formergenerations used to regard daylight rob-bery as a more serious offence than night-time robbery! I am sure members see thepoinit I have made.

The Leader of the Opposition said that,with the exception of the Dividing FencesAct, legislation on firearms has receivedmore attention than any other legislationbrought before the House.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: it is one ofthe pieces of legislation which usually re-ceives a fair amount of attention.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am sure it willreceive attention in the future and pos-sibly an amendment will be brought downto clarify that position. I am not suggest-ing that we should bring down an amend-ment to suit people who hold up banks.

The H-on. IL G. Medcalf:- The bankshooters' association!

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(Wednesday. 2 May, 1973) 1247

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I wonder whatqualifications the honourable memberwould suggest for membership! In regardto clause 22, subelause (3), this provisowas drafted in the measure so that appealproceedings could be concluded with a mini-imum of delay and cost. It is consideredequitable to both parties. However, nostrong views are held on this point. I donot have any strong views on it and I amprepared to delete the provision in theCommittee stage. There is no need to putan amendment on the notice paper but,in Committee, I will move that subelause(3) of clause 22 be deleted.

The honourable member referred tosafety precautions. I think he said thatcertain things were not done when hewent to license a gun. I think I have ananswer which will satisfy Mr. Medcalf.Over a long period of years the police havebeen doing all they possibly can not onlyto teach people how to use guns on alloccasions but also to teach the safety mea-sures which Mr. Medcalf and other mem-bers have mentioned. I have on my staffa particularly fine man in the lecturingbranch. I will not mention his name be-cause I do not discriminate. As far as Iam concerned, all my officers do a goodjob.

When I was teaching, this particularman came to the school and educated thepupils in safety methods on the road. Heshowed them how to give proper signalswhen riding their bikes. He was a won-derful lecturer. Today, he is one of the fin-est lecturers I know for his ability to geta message over, I am delighted he is en-gaged in this type of work. I can mentionall this without mentioning his name.

The information I am about to give re-lates to the Police Lecturing Branch. Thememorandum is headed, 'Information re-lative to lecturing programme in rela-tion to Firearms Safety and Explosives".When members of the lecturing branchvisit schools to lecture the children theyalso demonstrate with visual and mech-anical aids. This applies not only to the useof firearms but also to the use of ex-plosives. I am sure goldfields members willappreciate this, and Mr. Stubbs certain-ly will. Many children on the goldfieldsgrew up and went through life sufferingthe loss of fingers, toes, or even eyes caus-ed by the use of detonators. I have useddetonators many times for blowing upstumps and I know that the youngsterswere probably fascinated by the glisteningstuff at the bottom. Perhaps it was atemptation to pick UP a Pin or a stick andpoke it down. Many kiddies have donethat to their lifelong regret. Instruction Inthe use of explosives is very important.The memorandum states-

The Present Syllabus for lecturesdelivered by Police Lecturing Branchincludes and covers the following as-

pects in relation to Firearms Safe-ty and Explosives which are usuallydealt with concurrently.

Legal requirements for possession ofand use of firearms-Moral Obligation-Safety rules for use of firearms.

Culpable negligence is. I feel, associatedwith the act if a Person uses a firearmin a way which is unsafe and he is re-sponsible for the death of somebody else.This is why there is a moral obligationon a person using a gun. In the same way,there is a moral obligation on a personusing a car-he should drive in such away as to allow other motorists to pro-ceed with absolute safety. To continue withthe memorandum-

Danger of explosives and detonators-Safety procedures and correct pro-cedures when explosives or detonatorsare found.Attached please find copy of Lecture/Lesson Preparation and plan with re-spect to each of the subjects.

During the six months ending 30thJune, 1972-

That was the previous year. To continue--a full scale lecture programme onboth Firearms Safety and Explosiveswas completed in schools and attachedplease find Copy of three bookletsnamely, "Firearms Safety is Every-body's Business", "Shooting Booklet"and "Gun and Rifle Care", which weredistributed to schools for Informationof students and teachers as well asfor use in project assignments on thesubject. These booklets are also avail-able for issue at Police Stations topersons who apply for Firearm Licen-sesLectures are also given to varyinggroups of youth and adult audienceson request.

I believe Mr. Medcalf will be delighted toknow how the Police Department gets itsmessage across. It does wonderful work,and I feel this is the answer to the manypeople who have said how marvellous theVictorian Act is because money is madeavailable to certain bodies to teach safetyprocedures and the use of weapons.

It has been my experience in life, andmost members will probably agree, thatpeople are taught to shoot by relatives.My father was a regular shooter, and hetaught me to shoot. We went out nearlyevery Sunday shooting rabbits, an occas-ional hawk, and things of that nature. Hetaught me how to care for a gun correctly.and it was always my job to lock after thegun when we returned home.

Some of the points raised by Mr. Medcalfare contained in this little booklet calledFirearms Safety is Everybody's Business.The booklet lists the 10 'commandments' ofshooting safety. Perhaps after Mr. Med-calf reads it he may think of some otherrules, and if he asks me I will pass the

1248 [COUNCIL.]

information on to the officers of my depart-ment. Perhaps we will beat Moses andhave 11, or maybe 12, 'commandments'!The 'commandments' are as follows-

1. Treat every gun with the respectdue a loaded gun.

2. Watch that muzzle! Carry yourgun safely: keep safety on untilready to shoot.

Of course, most guns have a safety catchand this must be kept on until the gun isrequired. The commandments continue-

3. Unload guns when not In use, takedown or have actions open; gunsshould be carried in cases toshooting area.

4. Be sure barrel is clear of obstruc-tion, and that you have ammuni-tion only of the proper size for thegun you carry.

5. Be sure of target before you pulltrigger; know identifying featuresof game You hunt.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I reckon thatone Is a jolly good Idea.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of theOpposition has heard that one before. Mr.Wordsworth said he hoped the situationhere will never get like that in America.I would like to tell a little story about this.and I will give figures about the firearmssituation in America at a later stage.When the shooting season for deer opens,the shooters usually dress In costumes ofsimilar colours to those of a moose, elk.or other form of deer. That is the onlyway they know they are safe, because thedeer never get hit.

The 'commnandmients' continue-6. Never point a gun at anything you

do not want to shoot; avoid allhorseplay.

7. Never climb a tree or fence orjump a ditch with a loaded gun;never pull a gun towards you bythe muzzle.

8. Never shoot a bullet at a fiat, hardsurface or water; at target Prac-tice be sure your backstop isadequate.

0. Store guns and ammunition separ-ately, beyond reach of children.

10. Avoid alcoholic beverages before orduring shooting.

Keep shooting a safe sportAs I mentioned, there are two other valu-able shooting booklets which containeverything a person who is really keenabout shooting and wishes to act respon-sibly would desire to know. I repeat thatthe booklets are available at every Policestation; they are distributed at schools, andwhen policemen lecture at various organi-sations.

The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Can you Putthose on the Table so we may look atthem9

The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: There are twoor three rules I could add to that.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I will be delightedto look at these if the honourable memberwill submit them. When we bring out anew edition of the booklets, we may in-clude other rules if the commissioner con-siders they are worth while. The bookletsare in great demand. I believe if a Minis-ter suggested a new rule-

The Hon. I. G. Medcalf: I think the com-missioner would take some notice.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I would hope so;otherwise I would be a little upset.

The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon; You fellowsare very pally.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes, the honour-able member makes very valuable andhelpful contributions to debates. If we canlearn from each other, we should do so.

The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: That is avery good attitude.

The Hon. V. J. Ferry: He will be in theCabinet next.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I was a little upsetthat Mr. Ferry referred to the definition of"firearm" when he contributed to the de-bate. Mr. Ferry read this definition, butI would like to repeat it. It reads-

"firearm" includes any lethal firearmand any other weapon of any de-scription from which any shot,bullet, or other missile can be dis-charged or propelled or which, byany alteration in the constructionor fabric thereof, can be madecapable of discharging or propel-ling any shot, bullet or othermissile;

We then heard various facetious com-ments from members. I think this is a veryserious subject.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I think it Is, butyou have not treated it seriously all thetime.

The Hon. 3. DOLAN: There are twoways to get a message across. One is topresent the arguments in a very seriousand dignified manner and nobody will stopto listen. The other way is to spice one'sremarks a little and listeners are carefulnot to miss anything.

The Hon. A. F, Griffith: You have badsuccess using both methods.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: When Mr. Ferryread the definition, Mr. Cive Griffiths in-terjected and said it would include a waterpistol.

The Hon. Cive Griffiths: That is right.The Hon. J. DOLAN: Mr. Ferry agreed

and said it would include bows and arrowsand poor old Robin Hood would have atough time under legislation of this nature.Mr. Willinott said it would include spear-guns. Mr. Ferry agreed with this. At that

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[Wednesday. 2 May, 1973) 24

stage I attempted to be helpful andsaid that he would probably find this Iscovered by another Act, as it is, of course.Even Mr. Medcalf came in at that stageand said, "What about a Woamera?"Another member asked about a pea shooter.,Mr. Ferry agreed these would all be In-cluded in the definition, and I also agree.

The principle upon which the peashoter works is the same principle usedby Malaysian and South American tribes.They use the equivalent of a pea shooter,a blow gun, tipped with a poison dart. Itis used most effectively and silently bythese people to shoot game, and I meanhuman game as well as animal game. Theonly comment not made by a member wasthat the legislation would make it hardfor poor little David to use a stone in asling to knock down Goliath.

Members said that a Bill of this natureIs very restrictive when it contains a defi-nition like this. I therefore looked at theAct we are presently operating under andI read it very carefully. It says-

"firearm" includes any lethal fire-arm and any other weapon of anydescription from which any shot, bul-let, or other mnissile can be dischargedor propelled or which, by any altera-tion in the construction or fabricthereof, can be made capable ofdischarging or propelling any shot.bullet or other missile;

That is word for word toe same dlefinition.as that contained in the Bill before us.And yet we are told the legislation isvery restrictive, and that we are attempt-ing to impose strict conditions on thelicensing of firearms.

I was interested in a comment made bythe Leader of the Opposition the othernight. He said that people had come tothe gallery to see what we were going todo to them.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I did not thinkI had even made a speech on the subject.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: This was by wayof interjection-the leader of the Opposi-tion does these things occasionally.

The Hon. A. F. Or!iffith: Sarcasm doesnot become you.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It does not be-come me, but I wish to comment on thehonourable member's interjection. It wouldhave been more correct to substitute thePreposition "for" for the Preposition "to".This Is the whole Purpose of the Bill.

The Hon. A. IF. Griffith: What did I say?The Ron. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the

Opposition said that the people were hereto find out what the Government was go-ing to do to them. Wh1at we are doing issomething for them. We are attemptingto bring In legislation in keeping withmodern times. This will not make it anyeasier for a person to obtain a firearm

license, but It will not put a limitation onresponsible People. I was quite surprisedto see bow suddenly this definition of afirearm contained something which wouldp~revent the use of bows and arrows, waterpistols, and this type of thing. On eightoccasions the previous Governmentbrought the Act before the House foramendment. At no time was it thoughtthat the definition needed any alteration.If it did not need altering then, it doesnot need altering now. I respect previousGovernments. for this decision, becausethey felt that the definition covered thesituation adequately. We feel that thedefinition was worth while in the past andthat is why it is retained now.

I would like to refer to a comment madeby Mr. Wordsworth.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Before you goon, did anyone make a move to amend thedefinition?

The Eon, J. DOLAN: Not to my know-ledge

The Hon, A. F. Griffith: Then what isall the to-do about?

The Hon. S. DOLAN: Various people in-dicated that this definition was restrictive.I simply wished to in form the House thatthe definition applies at present and hasapplied for same considerable time.Neither the previous Government, theone before it. nor the Present Government,felt that it should be changed. I hope thisattitude will continue.

Mr. Wordsworth referred to the situa-tion in the United States. I happened tobe speaking to a friend of mine who hadrecently undertaken a trip-not an LSDitrip-to the United States. He and afriend were travelling on a highway andexceeding the speed limit-70 miles perhour-by about 10 miles per hour. A carwith a red light flashing and a horn blow-ing flagged them down. They stopped andthe police car went on about 100 yardsbefore stopping. My friend waited for theofficer to come back, as is customary here.When a man is waved down by a trafficofficer in Australia he waits where he isfor the officer to tell him what he has donewrong-it may be that a light on the caris not functioning properly or somethingof that nature.

The traffic Officer In America made nomove to return to my friend who knew hehad been speeding. He thought the officerwould approach him. Eventually hiedecided to walk to the police car to seewhat it was all about. 'He was very sur-prised to see that the officer had a .45 gunon his hip and a short-barrelled gun rest-ing across the steering wheel and pointedat my friend. My friend said, "We are notcriminals. We are Visitors from Australiaand we stopped back on the highway be-cause We thought You would return to us."The officer told him that one of his mates

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had Pulled up a car with two men in it theweek before and when he approached thecar, his bead was blown off by a shot froma gun. It appeared that the traffic offi-cers were taking precautions to see that asimilar thing did not occur again.

The latest figures I was able to obtainare from the Los Angeles Police Depart-ment Year Book, 1970, written by E. M.Davis, the Chief of Police. This reads-

Man has found his environment ofmechanical Inventions difficult to livewith. In Los Angeles for instance, 375people died during 1969 from gunshotwounds-O % of those deaths werehomicides. Approximately the samenumber of people-38--dled as aresult of motor vehicle collisions. Boththe gun and the automobile haveproved to be equally violent instru-ments of human destruction.

He then tries to get his message across bysaying-

They have immoderately populated thecemeteries with an unconscionabletally of tenants. But the social burdenof the motor driven machine is heavierand costlier.

The number of fatalities from gunshotwounds very nearly approximates thenumber of fatalities on the road.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I do not thinkYou can compare that country wvith Aus-tralia.

The Hon, J. DOLAN: Perhaps not, butwe do not want a similar situation to arisein Australia. We have, after all, followedand accepted a number of things thathave originated and been pioneered inAmerica. The situation in the U.S.A.probably goes back to the time when peoplehad to have their guns at their sides forfear of attack. There were 345 people shotdead in one week in the United States.

The Hon. F. D. Wfllmott: There musthave been a war on.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It would seem so,The reason of course is that people therehave free access to guns.

In The West Australian of the 28thApril, 1973-whIch is only last Saturday-there appeared a letter from M. P. O'Brienof Coolbellup which states-

Apparently Kevin C. Calmanos andR. Allanson who commented on theFirearns Act and hunting (April 18)did not see the headline "345 shotdead in one week In U.S."

That Mr. Caimanos should use sev-eral U.S. States as an example ofliberal gun and hunting laws is ludi-crous in view of the facts. The num-ber of deaths attributable to firearmisin Australia is low-because of strictgun laws that already adequately pro-vide for the sporting shooter.

There are those in Australia and in West-ern Australia who say that we need gunlaws that are so liberal that a situationsimilar to that which exists In Americatoday could probably arise.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I have neverheard anybody assert that.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: This was containedin a letter.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You said thatsome people think the gun laws should beso loose, but I have never heard anybodysay that.

The I-on. J. DOLAN: There are somewho say it; indeed I have heard one per-son saying it. There were a number ofpeople with him and I was listening towhat he had to say. As I said there isanother side to the question. I would liketo refer to a letter I received on the 1stMay-which Is only yesterday-from theWomen's Service Guilds of Western Aus-tralia Inc.-League of Women Voters(Non-Party). This body is affiliated withthe Australian Federation of WomenVoters, the International Alliance of Wom-en and the British CommonwealthLeague (London). The letter reads asfollows--

re Firearms Bill:At the April meeting of our State

Executive the matter of the new Fire-arms Bill was brought to our attention.Our members believe that great harmwill be done if this Bill becomes law.

If members feel the same way about thismeasure I will be quite happy to retainthe present Act. To continue-

We would rather see the control over.nese death dealing weapons increasedrather than lessened, and hope thatthis Bill will fail.

This organization was mainly re-sponsible for the original licensing lawsregarding Firearms and we do notwish to see our work undone. We be-lieve that if this Bill is passed it couldpossibly mean the death of some ofour citizens,

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: Quite obvious-ly they have never read this Bill.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I answered thatletter as follows--

Acknowledgment is made of yourletter under date 30th April, 1973,regarding the Firearms Bill.

The ir letter was written on the 30th Aprilbut I received it yesterday, on the 1st May.My reply continues-

The contents of your letter have beennoted and for Your Information it isadvised that the Bill now under dis-cussion in the Legislative Council. inno way lessens the control over fire-armns currently provided for in theFlbiearmis and Guns Act.

1250

[Wednesday. 2 May, 19731 15

A further letter was written by a couplefrom Melville. The family name is a wellknown one and the man and his wi-feraised the question and said-

We are strongly opposed to anymeasures which make it easier forpeople to own and use firearms. Wehave experienced during a 14 monthstay in U.S.A. the fear of living in acommunity where too many peopleown and carry arms.

Firearms we believe can be an en-couragement to violence in the com-munity and can lead to the policeneeding to carry firearms more often.Inevitably mistrust and 'accidents'follow.

There is no need for people to haveeasy access to guns and any commer-cial pressures to increase gun salesshould be resisted with the utmostresolution.

So there is another side to the questionand this is the side I am trying to conveyto the House. We have an execellent. Actbut by this Bill we need to bring it moreinto line with modern trends- and thinking,and this is what I intend to do.

Sitting suspended from 6.06 to 7.30 p.m.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Before tea I wasreferring to the point raised by Mr. Loganrelating to the issue of safari licenses. Itold him that I would procure the infor-mation he required. The original submis-sion made to me was that Mr. Graysmarkof Broome had commenced a safari servicefor tourists. The service consists ofescorting groups of people in a four-wheel-drive vehicle to beauty spots on fishingand hunting trips. The shooting will bealong the Fitzroy River near Camballinand will be mainly for the destruction ofvermin.

He has not yet been issued with a license,but these are some of the conditions thatwill be laid down. Of course, there is pro-vision for a $1.0 license fee to be paid toconduct a guided hunting tour, and a $1fee to be charged for a hunter's permit.A new regulation will be necessary for thispurpose.

A hunting guide licensed to conduct aguided hunting tour has a counterpart inthe Northern Territory where a similar li-cense is issued and where similar tours havebeen conducted over many years. They aregreat attractions. I have my personalviews on this, but I shall not let themcloud the information I have received.

A hunting guide licensed to conduct aguided hunting tour shall cause no morethan three firearms to accompany eachtour, one being a high-powered rifle, onea low-powered rifle, and one a shotgun.He must cause all of the firearms on thetour to be under his direct supervision.

Furthermore, he must cause all personsusing his firearms to be the holder of ahunter's permit for that occasion.

In any expedition, the only people whomay use the guns are the safari guide, whois responsible under the license for thecare of the guns, and those who are theholders of a hunter's permit; and thispermit will be granted only under thestrictest conditions.

Mr. Logan made reference to vermin tobe destroyed. In this connection I wouldPoint out that vermin include kangaroosand unprotected species of hush wallabies,dingoes, wild pigs, and donkeys. The pro-moter of the safari advises that he isg-azetted as an honorary fauna warden.So, we can see he is required to havecertain qualifications, otherwise he wouldnot be considered for a license.

The caresses are left where the animalsare killed. This is similar to what is donein the Northern Territory. if one goesinto the timbered country along AlbanyHighway one will find on almost alloccasions several carcases of kangaroosand wallabies. These are left on theground, and the crows clean up the car-cases. The same situation exists In theNorthern Territory and, for this reason,eagles are protected birds in that part ofthe country. They help to clean up the car-cases of dead animals. Even bullockswhich happen to be run over by big trucksare cleaned up by these birds.

The safari will travel on station pro-perty. No Crown land or native reserve I-sInvolved at all. Permits to shoot on GoGo Station, Fossil Downs Station, Myroo-bab Station, Luluiei Station, ParadiseStation, Yedo Station, Roebuck Station,and Anna Plains Station have been ob-tained. This covers an area which Is suffi-cient for a safari; it is an area whichwould take in the whole cf Europe.

The Hon. L. A. Logan: The area isgreater than one over which you and Icould walk In a day.

The Hon, J. Heitman: Do these peoplehave to buy tags before they shoot theseanimals?

The H-on. J. DOLAN: I do not knowwhat the honourable member means. Doeshe suggest that if these people shoot kan-garoos they have to put tags on thecarcases? Every aspect of the law coveringfauna and flora is essential.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You should askthe Minister for Community Welfare, heknows.

The H-on. J. DOLAN: In future applica-tions for hunters' licenses will receive fullInvestigation before the licenses are issued.The proposed hunter's license will be onsimilar lines to that which exists in theNorthern Territory. I have a copy of theamendments and regulations relating to

1251

1252 COUNC~lJ

the Northern Territory, and of the natureof the permit which is granted. I thinkthe license is endorsed with the words"Hunting Guide". Our permit will bebased along the same lines. These docu-ments are available to Mr. Logan If hewishes to peruse them.

The next matter to which I wish to referconcerns the license for curio weapons.Representations have been made to meby a number of members, both in thisChamber and in another place, to look atsome of these antique weapons. I tookadvantage of the opportunity to inspectwhat I consider to be the best collectionin this State. This is located in Wagin.The collection Is well worthy of inspectionby anybody because it is really an attrac-tion.

The guns go back to the time of theCrimean War. I would not like to be anthe receiving end of one of them. I sawthese weapons and was most Impressed. Asa result I gave deep consideration tohaving my officers examine the situation,to ascertain whether a strict license couldbe issued under certain conditions andlimitations to cover such weapons.

The Hon. S. T. J. Thompson: They arereally antiques.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes. They forma beautiful display. The owner exercisesevery precaution in safeguarding theseweapons. Anybody who is appreciative ofthese old relics would be well advised tolook at this collection. The owner is a re-tired farmer. At the end of his diningroom there is a folding concertina door.He has secured this with a couple of locksat the bottom. The back of the area islit up. and all that the owner has to dois to switch on the lights and unfasten thelocks to display the collection. The shelvesare beautifully arranged. Not only doeshe have a collection of curio firearms butalso collections of rocks and metals. So,provision is made in the Bill for the issueof a license uinder certain conditions to acollector of curio weapons.

The final point I refer to relates to high-powered rifles. I want to clear up somemisapprehension on the part of some mem-bers. It is quite possible for a person tohave a high-powered rifle, a low-poweredrifle, and a shotgun. It is quite permissible,and there is nothing against that. Ofcourse, certain conditions are laid down.

I regret some people seem to think thatjust because a person is able to obtain alicense for a small-powered rifle he shouldbe permitted to have a license for a high-powered rifle. The position is that certainrestrictions must be applied in many fields.I give a recent example where I caused theregulations to be changed to provide thatthe riders of motor cycles under 250 c.c.would have to undergo a special test to belicensed to ride high-powered cycles.

Under the conditions now existing al-though a person may have shown hisCapacity to ride a low-powered motor cycle,he still has to undergo a test to ride ahigh-powered vehicle, because this is adifferent proposition altogether. It Is nownecessary for an applicant to undergo aspecial test to ascertain whether he has thecapacity to handle a high-powered motorcycle. This test is more severe than thatwhich an applicant for a license for amotor cycle under 250 cc. must undergo.We have seen some very tragic accidentsoccurring as a result of the Incapacity ofpeople to handle high-powered vehicles.

Whilst it is granted that people are en-titled to obtain a license for a low-poweredrifle like a .22 rifle if they meet the neces-sary condition, it is a different kettleof fish when it comes to the granting of alicense for a high-powered rifle. I appre-ciate the point made by Mr. Willmnott whenhe referred to the killing of vermin. He.said that if a person had a high-poweredrifle he was more likely to kill the animaloutright. Against that, what would hap-pen if a bullet from a high-powered riflewhich was discharged some distance awaylanded in a paddock and killed a prize bullor prize ram? Should that occur I am surethe owner of such an animal would nothave a very high opinion of the proposal.Limitations anid restrictions will have tobe placed on the use of high-poweredrifles and on the areas where they may bedischarged.

I do not go along with any proposalwhich makes it easier for these licenses tobe obtained. They can be obtained bypeople who are able to Indicate they arereliable; but each case has to be consideredon its merits. After a case is considered alicense may be granted.

However, should a license be refusedthere is room for appeal, firstly, to theCommissioner of Police in accordance withthe provisions of the Act and, secondly, tothe Minister who has overriding control.If the applicant is still not satisfied he canappeal to a magistrate and put his casebefore him. I am quite agreeable to thedeletion of the provision in clause 22(3)which provides that the decision of a mag-istrate Is final and is not subject to anyappeal, so that people may appeal to thehighest courts in the land if there areunusual circumstances, such as those out-lined by Mr. Medealf when he mentionedthe case of a manufacturer of weaponswho might be prevented from manufactur-ing rifles or guns as a result of these re-strictions. Nothing could be more Justthan that. This will bring about control,and at the same time will ensure that thesepeople are able to manufacture theweapons they desire.

The law will be safely loosened so far asclubs are concerned and it is only a ques-tion of the clubs putting their own houses

1252

[Wednesday. 2 May, 1973] 25

in order thus making themselves accept-able. Then there will be no diffculty as-sociated with licenses.

I went to Albany. recently, to examine arange which was to be used for smallarms shooting. I examined it closelywith the local superintendent of police,whose advice I sought on the matter.He was quite happy with the situa-Lion. I think that where conditions apply,such as those which exist at Albany, andwhere an examination has taken place,there is no difficulty whatsoever as long asthe affairs of the club are in order. Thatis What I consider to be worth-while con-trol, and I have to Insist that this controlexist.

If any person considers that a high-powered rifle is not a greater danger thana small bore rifle, I cannot agree with him,The fact that there may be more accidentsor fatalities associated with .22 rifles issimply because there is a far greater num-ber of them. In those circumstances, ofcourse, there would naturally be moreaccidents involving that type of rifle.

The Hon. J. L. Hunt: What was thecalibre of the rifle used in the Kambaldashooting the other day?

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It was a .303.The bullet from the rifle went completelythrough the body of one person beforewounding another. I might mention thatthere are even higher powered rifles thanthe .303.

To give an example of the danger of ahigh-powered rifle I will mention an inci-dent which occurred in the metropolitanarea, and I think that members will recallthe case. A young man was walking inVincent Street Past the Leederville Oval,In 1929. when he suddenly fell to theground dead. On examination a bulletfrom a high-powered rifle was found in hisbody. The police, as a result of investiga-tions carried out by experts regarding theestimated trajectory of the bullet, con-cluded that the rifle was fired in SouthPerth.

That type of accident is distressing, andIt is even more distressing to those closelyassociated with the victim. We can some-times look at such accidents dispassionatelybut the people involved personally can be-come very upset.

In conclusion I would mention thatspearguns will come under the definition offirearms. The world is changing and manyitems which can be used as lethal weapons.today, have to be covered by our laws. Antordinary fountain pen can become a lethalweapon. The same applies to walking sticksand umbrellas. I am not trying to throwa scare Into members, but as years go bythe criminal element will be using all kindsof items as weapons. Such items have to bebrought under the provisions of the fire-arms legislation.

I repeat what I had to say when I in-troduced the Bill: The legislation has tokeep up with modemn times and there mustnot be any lessening of the safeguardsapplied to ensure that every firearm usedis in the hands of a responsible person.The restrictions which apply must not beremoved so that weapons can be identifiedwith their licensees,

The Victorian system will not find anyplace in the thinking of this Government.The proposed steps have to be taken other-wise, of course, the Act as it is presentlyconstituted will have to continue tooperate.

I hope that when discussing the Bill InCommittee members will realise It is muchbetter to have strict safeguards ratherthan to lessen or ease the present 'restric-tions which apply to the use of firearms.Any lessening of the restrictions could,perhaps, increase the number of fatalities.

The number of fatalities which occur inthis State at present are few. I think thatin the last year there were 13 deaths, andof those seven were homicides and twowere suicides. When compared with otherparts of the world we are a reasonably safecommunity, and we want to keep It thatway.

We will not interfere In any way withclubs which are well run, but we intendto ensure that there are safeguards. Ihave discussed the contents of this meas-ure with all sections of the community, notonly with the people who belong to clubsbut also with those engaged In the indus-try. I have been assured that these peopleare happy with the contents of the Bill.As I mentioned earlier, some people arenot happy but they are those whowould not be happy under any circum-stances unless they got their own way. Icommend the Bill to the House.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In CommitteeThe Chairman of Committees (The Hon.

N. E. Baxter) in the Chair; The Hon. J.Dolan (Leader of the House) in chargeof the Bill.

Clauses 1 to 5 put and passed.Clause 6: Prohibition-The Hon. P. D. WJLIMO T: I have six

amendments on the notice paper dealingiwitht is cause. With Your concurrence,'Mr . Chairman, I propose to speak to themI enerally because they all aim to doexactly the same thing.

Clause 6 deals with regulation-makingpowers, and it will apply extremely res-trictive provisions regarding the licensingof firearms. The purpose of my amend-ments is to make those restrictions applyonly to pistols as defined in this measure.That definition will cover sawn-off riflesand shotguns, or any gun which can be

1253

1254 (COUNILc.]easily or readily used in one hand. I thinkeveryone agrees that kind of weaponshould be severely restricted.

I believe there is sufficient power for thenecessary restrictions in the regulation-making powers of clause 34. If the pro-visions of clause 34 are coupled with theProvisions of clause 11 1 believe there willbe quite sufficient powers without thosecontained In clause 6. My amendmentwill confine the regulation-making powersof clause 6 to pistols and ammunition forsuch pistols because I believe the pro-visions of the clause will be too restrictiveon the use of high-powered rifles. I movean amendment-

Page 4, line 3-Delete the word"firearm" and substitute the word"Pistol".

The I-on. J. DOLAN: The amendmentssuggested by Mr. Willhnott are totally un-acceptable to the Government. They wouldhave the effect of limiting the provisionsof the clause to cover pistols only, whereasit is intended to cover every item comingunder the definition of a firearm, especi-ally those of a potentially dangerousnature. That would include military-typeweapons such as fully automatic rifles,and even hand grenades. In particular.the provisions of clause 6 are intended tocover items now subject to the control ofthe Minister for Customs and Excise.

I would also refer to the comments madeby Mr. Willmott during his second readingspeech. Clause 6 was drafted to makeprovision for uncommon-type firearms, andthose considered particularly danger-ous whereby there is a need to exercise aspecial precaution as to their possessionand use. The recommendation from thecommissioner-referred to in the clause-is to ensure that the Governor Is fully in-formed In technical considerations beforeclassifying a particular firearm or item asprohibited, or Imposing a strict conditionas to its possession or use. In particular,clause 6 will make provision under Statelaw for items subject to control by theMinister for Customs and Excise. I opposethe amendment.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFTITHS: TheMinister mentioned the necessity to havethese rigid controls in regard to firearms,and suggested it was the intention of theGovernment to ensure there was nolessening of the control which currentlyexists.

The Leader of the House went on tosay that If what the Government wasproposing was not acceptable we wouldbe raced with the alternative of retainingthe present Act. When he introduced theBill. in his first or second sentence he saidthe purpose of the Bill was to ease therestrictions on the use of firearms. To-night he has taken an entirely differentattitude altogether. Tonight he told usthat is not the sltuation.

He went on to say the purpose of clause6 of the Bill was to give the commissionerauthority to control not only high-poweredfirearms but also other firearms such ashand grenades and, I presume, machineguns. I was under the impression that theuse of those firearms was controlled by theMinister for Customs and Excise andwould continue to be so controlled. There-fore, no situation will arise in which thatsort of firearm will be obtainable throughlegal channels in Western Australia. Thereare, of course, illegal channels which willcontinue to exist whether this Bill ispassed, the previous Act is retained, orany other legislation is Introduced. Somepeople will continue to obtain firearmsillegally.

Clause 6 is the prohibition clause in theBill. The Leader of the House broughtInto the debate figures which applied toPlaces such as the U.S.A. He gave figureswhich had already been quoted by Mr.Wordsworth and figures applying to LosAngeles which he had obtained from some-where. All those figures gave us a horri-fying picture, and I agree they presentedan unsatisfactory state of affairs. But thelegislation of those particular countriesdoes not contain the restrictions our legis-lation has contained in the past and willcontinue to contain in the future. Itwould have been more appropriate hadthe Leader of the House aiven us examplesfrom countries which had comparablelegislation and restrictive clauses.

The CHAIRMAN; Order! I trust thehonourable member will connect his re-marks to the amendment before the Com-mittee.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: I intendto do so. The clause deals with a Prohibi-tion on the use, ownership, possession, sale.or acauisition of any firearm.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I point outthat the subject matter before the Com-mittee at the present time Is the deletionof the word "firearm", with a view to sub-stituting the word "pistol". The honour-able member may proceed.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFITHS: I musthow to your ruling in this matter. Mr.Chairman. I was of the opinion thatwhat I was saying came within the scopeof the amendment. You are suggesting Itdoes not, so I will have to deviate fromthe line I intended to take.

I believe this prohibition clause should berestricted to concealable weapons. I sup-Port the amendment put forward by Mr.Willmott.

The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I support theamendment before the Chair and I pointout that a slightly different intentionappears to have crept into this legislation-Particularly in regard to this clause. Mr.Clive Griffiths pointed out that the Leader

[Wednesday, 2 May, 19733 1255

of the House, when he Introduced the Bill.said the intention was to ease the restric-tions on the use of firearms.

The Hon. S, J. Dellar: Following rep-resentations by sporting bodies.

The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I will quotewhat the Leader of the House said onPage 548 of Mansard-

Following various representations bysporting bodies to the Commissionerof Police for some easement of re-strictions In the use of firearms andthe obvious need for the Act to be up-dated, it Is deemed desirable to repealthe Firearms and Guns Act, 1931-1971.and introduce more up-to-date legis-lation that will meet present-daytrends.

I do not think that is out of context withwhat I was about to say. I also quotewhat the Leader of the House said in re-gard to clause 6, on page 549 of Hansard-

Clause 6 provides for the making ofregulations to complement the Act.

That takes up less than two lines in Han-sard. The clause is designed to comple-ment the Act. That gave us no cleardirection as to the intention.

Subsequently, in the Committee stage,the Leader of the House said it was in-tended to control other firearms andweapons which are now controlled byCommonwealth legislation. If that wasand still is the intention with respect tothis clause, the Leader of the House shouldhave said so at the second reading stageso that we could have Investigated thepros and cons of the matter. The Cham-ber was confronted with less than twolines of explanation in regard to this veryimportant clause.

T think the amendment moved by Mr.Willmott will update the provisions in res-pect of firearms in this State in accord-ance with the Government's Intention, butI do not agree that this clause shouldcover all the firearms listed in the defini-tion in the Hill. Ample provisions arecontained in other clauses of the measureto control satisfactorily other forms offirearms.

I believe the community should be givenfurther guidance in regard to the use ofpistols or concealable weapons, and thatthe amendment proposed by Mr. WillmoilttIs therefore justified.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I cannot agreeto the amendment. Whether or not therewere regulations in the previous Act, Ithink it is inconceivable that we shouldhave a Firearms Act and not have theright to make regulations in regard tofirearms.

The Hon. V. J. Perry: Clause 34 coversthat.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It does not.Regulations must be made in accordancewith the Act, and if there Is no provisionfor making regulations In relation to fire-arms. we cannot make regulations. To doso would be ultra viries the Act.

I asked the Leader of the House aboutsafaris. He said it would be necessary tomake regulations before approval could begiven to safaris. If we take the word"firearm' out of the legislation, we willhave no right to make regulations in re-gard to safaris, because we will have noright to make regulations in regard tofirearms. Therefore, I cannot go alongwith the amendment.

The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTr: I point outto the Committee the regulating powersthat exist under clause 34. In paragraph(f) of subclause (2), the Governor maymake regulations for "the classificationof firearms and ammunition for the pur-poses of this Act',. So it is nonsense tosay we cannot do anything about firearms.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Read paragraph(g).

The I-on. L. A. Logan: It has alreadybeen taken out of the Bill.

The H-on. F. D5. WULLMOTT: We aredoing nothing about the definition of "fire-arm" in this Bill. Clause 6 is quite separ-ate. It deals with powers to make regula-tions for prohibitions. I have alreadyquoted the general regulating powersdealing with renewals, cancellations, res-trictions, limitations, and conditions inconnection with licenses or permits, andparagraph (f) reads-

(f) the classification of firearms andammunition for the purposes ofthis Act;

I think the matter Is dealt with quiteclearly and suffciently in the generalregulating powers.

The Ron. J. DOLAN: I repeat that theGovernment cannot go along with thisamendment. The deletion of the word"firearm" and the substitution of theword 'Pistol" would destroy the wholevalue of the Hill.

Amendment put and a division takenwith the following result-

Ayes-liHon.Hon.Hon.Hon.Hon.Hon.

0, W. BerryV. J. FerryA. P. GriffithClive GriffithsJ. Heitman0. C. MacKinnon

Ron. 1. 0. MedcaltHon, R. J. L. WilliamsHon. F. fl. WillmottHon. D. J. WordsworthHon. W. R. Withers

(Teller)

Noes-iSHan. R. P. Claughton Hon. T. 0. PerryHon. Di. K Boans Hon. R. H. C. StubbsHon. 5. J. Deilar Hon. R. ThompsonRon. J. Dolan Hon. S. T. J. ThompsonHon. L. Di. Elliott Eon. F. R. WhiteHon. J. L. Hunt Hon. W. F. WilieseeHon. L. A. Logan (Teller)

Amendment thus negatived.

1256(COUNCIL.]

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFrITH: The vote onthe amendment waS 13-11. Mr. McNeill isabsent, and it was my understanding thathe was to be paired. Would the Leader ofthe House declare his attitude regardingpairs in relation to this Bill?

The Hon- J. Dolan: I understand onlyone pair was granted1 and that was thepairing of Mr. Leeson and Mr. Abbey.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Was theGovernment Whip asked to grant twoPairs?

The Hon. J. Dolan. Not to my knowledge.The Hon, A. F. GRIFFITH: I merely

raise this as a matter of principle. AsLeader of the Opposition I want to cometo an understanding with the Leader ofthe House as to whether pairs are or arenot to be granted. MY Whip says that heasked for two pairs but got only one.

The Hon, J. Dolan- One pair was forup to 9.00 p.m., and the other was forafter that time.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: That is,generally speaking, the Government willrant only one pair on legislation?

'The Hon. J. Dolan:I Not necessarily.The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Well, what

are we to understand?The Hon. J. DOLAN: My Whip informs

me that only one pair had been asked for,and that the other Pair was for after 9.00p.m. It Is now 8.15 p.m., so I think thatis reasonable enough.

The Hon. J. Heitmnan: Before the votewas taken I asked for the other Pair to heshifted from 9.00 to 8.00 p.m. it was mymistake.

Clause put and passed.Clause 7 put and Passed.Clause 8: Exemptions from licensing re-

quirements-The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: I have

an amendment on the notice paper to de-lete the word "common" where it relates tocommon carriers. The reason behind myamendment is the lengths to which car-riers such as Mayne Nickless, M.M.A.,T.N.T., and others go to make the publicaware of the fact that they are not com-mon carriers. They include a condition onthe back of their documents to that effect.

My inquiries from the department revealthat the department considers thesecarriers to be common carriers, but thecarriers consider they are not commoncarriers. I move an amendment-

Page 6. line 5-Delete the word"common"

The Hon. 3. DOLAN: I oppose theamendment. The reference to "commoncarriers" is a descriptive phrase used inlaw to define a carrier who Is fully re-sponsible for the goods he carries for thegeneral public.

The Hon. OLIVE GREFhTIrHB: The car-riers concerned have told me that the pur-pose of including the condition on theirdocuments that they are not common car-riers Is to ensure that they have a lawfulright to refuse to carry goods. A commoncarrier is obliged to cart anything he isasked to cart. A carrier reserves the rightto decide what he will carry. As far as thefirearms branch is concerned, it believesthe carriers I have mentioned are no dif-ferent from ordinary carriers; but the car-riers contend that legally they are notcommon carriers. As the clause stands thecarriers will be obliged to cart firearms,whether or not they know they are cartingthem.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: If we delete theword "common" we must find a suitablealternative, because a carrier could be anyperson who carries anything. The Purposeof the provision is to remove the need forcarriers to obtain a license to carry fire-arms. if the amendment is agreed to thesituation will be left wide open, so I mustoppose the amendment.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: The reason for theuse of the word "common", which is usedin law, is that it provides protection forthe person who is engaged in carryinggoods. I agree with Mr. Logan that theremoval of the word would leave the situa-tion wide open and that is undesirable.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: I ask theMinister: Will Mayne Nickless be requiredin future to obtain a license or permit everytime its drivers carry a firearm? Thatfirm specifically states it is not a commoncarrier and therefore is not exempted bythe clause.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am prepared tomake a further investig-ation and obtainan answver to the specific question raisedby Mr. Olive Griffiths. If it is found thatthe inclusion of the word is undesirableI will take steps to remove it.

Amendment put and negatived.The Ron. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: My next

amendment on the notice paper is conse-quential upon the last so I will not proceedwith it.

Paragraph (i states that the license isnot required when a firearm is carried bythe employee of a primary producer onland used by the employer for the purposesof primary production. I propose to addwords to extend that exemption to applywhilst that employee is travelling to or fromthe land in question. It is conceivablethat a primary producer's property mightbe separated by another property or by aroad. I do not think it is the desire of theMinister to require the employer to travelwith his employee from one part of hisproperty to another; because whilst theemployee Is travelling along a road oracross another property he is not on theproperty of his employer. Therefore, Imove an amendment-

1256

[Wednesday, 2 May, 1973] 1257

Page 6. lines 21 and 22-Insert afterthe word "production" the passage

"or whilst travelling to or from thatland".

The Hon. J. DOLAN: As an alternative,I suggest that paragraph (i) be deletedand that the following paragraph be sub-stituted-

(i) by an employee of a primary pro-ducer who, with the permission ofhis employer, has in his possessionin any place for the purpose ofdestroying vermin on any landused by the employer for the pur-poses of primary production afirearm belonging to the employer,or who uses that firearm for thatpurpose on that land:

I think that would cover the situation.The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: I do not

believe the Minister's suggested amend-ment covers the situation because a personwould be breaking the. law if he were onland which, although forming part of aproperty which was used for primary pro-duction, was not being used for that pur-pose at the time.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I do notknow whether or not to agree with theMinister because I cannot absorb his pro-posal. Surely if the Minister has an alter-native he should place it on the noticepaper or at least acquaint the memberconcerned that he has an alternative. TheMinister's suggestion sounds all right but.as I have said, I would like an opportunityto study it.

The H-on. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: I agre ewith what my leader has said inasmuchas it is difficult to try to absorb a com-pletely new proposal without having re-ceived any prior notice of it. It seemed tome to be exactly what I had in mind,although the fear expressed by Mr.Withers did occur to me. Perhaps some-one could explain whether or not virginland on a property would qualify underthe Minister's proposal. If this is so, Icould accept it.

The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTT: In myopinion the Minister's proposal does notcover the situation which concerns me.Many properties, including my own, areseparated by railway lines, roads, and soon. What would be the position of anemployee carrying a firearm across a road?He would not be covered.

The Ron. J7. Dolan: Yes he would.

The Hon. F. fl. WILLMOTT: I agreewith Mr. Arthur Griffith as I, too, wouldlike an opportunity to study the proposal.Perhaps the Minister could move to post-pone this clause and deal with it later.

The I-on. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I donot believe the Minister's proposal wouldachieve what Mr. Cive Griffiths desires.

The amendment before us deals with aperson travelling to or from the land. Iknow that many employees take their em-ployers' firearms home with them andbring them back next day. They wouldbe covered under the amendment beforeus, but not under the Minister's proposal.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think that myproposal covers the situations referred to.An employee first of all must have thepermission of his employer. Then he mustbe in Possession of the firearm for thepurpose of destroying vermin on any land,no matter where that land might be.Surely that covers the situation completely.

The I-on. A. F. Griffith: You are wrong.The amendment refers to any land usedby the employer. You would not say thatrailway land was used by the employer forprimary production. You have to read allthe words, not some of them.

The Hon. J. DOLANq: He has the weaponin his possession for one purpose only;that is, to destroy vermin on land belong-Ing to the employer. Therefore if an em-ployee is carrying a firearm from one por-tion of the property to another portion fivemiles away he is completely covered. Iwould not have submitted my proposal ifI had not believed it covered the situationbecause the. point raised is quite valid.

The CHAIRMAN: I suggest that theLeader of the House should accede to Mr.Wilhnott's suggestion to postpone discus-sion on this clause in order that copies ofthe proposal might be circulated.

The Hon. J7. DOLAN: I am quite agree-able, and I therefore move-

That further consideration of theclause be Postponed.

motion Put and passed.Clauses 9 and 10 put and passed.Clause 11: Restriction on Commission-

er's discretion-The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I move an

amendment-Page 8-Delete Paragraph (c).

It seems to me that if a person must provethat the granting of a permit or license Isdesirable in the Public interest, then surelythat is good enough reason. I believe thatparagraph (a) covers the requirements inparagraph (c). I would like it explainedto me why paragraph (t) is necessary.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: This amendmentis strongly Opposed. Paragraph (c) ismost important when an application fora firearm license is being considered. TheAct contains a similar provision and inpractice it is used to ensure an applicant,in addition to being suitable and a personof good character, has a good reason forrequiring a firearm. In the Shorter OX-ford Dictionary the word "good" is des-cribed also as meaning adequate, factual,

[COUNCIL.)

thorough, and valid, especially In law. Ifthis Provision no longer appied a personcould make application for any type offirearm whether or not he had a good,valid, or adequate reason for requiring it.Any Person aggrieved by a refusal underclause 11 (c) has recourse to an appeal.Therefore I believe this amendment mustbe strongly opposed.

The Hon. 1'. D. WILLMOTT: Memberswill have noticed that Mr. Medesif alsohas on the notice paper an amendmentto this clause. I believe it would be betterIf Mr. Ferry asked leave to withdraw hisamendment in favour of Mr. Medcalf'sproposed amendment.

The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I also wasa little concerned with the amendmentproposed by Mr. Ferry although I appre-ciate that he had good reason-if I mayuse those words-for placing It on thenotice paper.

As I said last night, the feeling is thatcertain groups in the community mayhave been refused permission in the pastto have a license because they were mem-bers of an organisation which, for somereason, police officers-and I do not saythe commissioner-were not prepared toregard as being a justifiable organisation.Mr. Perry may have put the amendmenton the notice paper for this very reason.I hope he will be persuaded to withdrawhis amendment. If he is, I will then movemine which I hope will be acceptable.

The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I believe I haveachieved something by placing the amend-ment on the notice paper. In view of whathas been said in discussion on this clauseI am of the opinion that Mr. Medcalf'samendment would come closer to achiev-ing a desirable result than mine. I there-fore seek leave to withdraw my amend-ment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.The Hon. 1. G, MEDCALF: I move an

amendment-Page 8, line 4-Add after the word

"relates" the following words "Pro-vided however that membership bysuch a person of a recognised associa-tion of shooters or gun club or engage-ment in agricultural industry as afarmer or grazier shall be deemed tobe a sufficiently good reason".

The object of the amendment is to leavethe requirement In subclause (c) so thatthe police will not grant a license unlessthey are satisfied, firstly, that it is desir-able in the public interest; secondly, thata person is fit to hold a license: and.thirdly, that the person has good reasonfor requiring the license. In thesetroubled times it is desirable that thepolice should have the power to ascertainthe reason a person desires a license.

Nevertheless, people should not be auto-matically ruled out from acquiring alicense because they are members of arecognised association of shooters, of agun club, or are engaged in the agricultu-ral industry. I am not saying that I knowof any cases of people engaged In theagricultural industry who have been re-fused a license. However, I am informedthat there are cases where people havebeen refused a license on the ground thatit was not sufficient reason that they weremembers of a gun club, although that clubcould be a recognised one. I am not inthe position of being able to quote a par-ticular gun club whose members have beenaffected but I am informed this has hap-pened.

I believe that it should be a sufficientlygood reason to obtain a license if the as-sociation of shooters or the gun club isrecognised. Perhaps further words couldbe added to the amendment. I would goso far as to say, 'a recognised and respon-sible association of shooters or of a gunclub".

The Hon. J. Dolan: What about "ap-proved"?

The Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALLF: One diffi-culty with the word "approved" is that itrules out any organisation which is disap-proved, without any particular reason be-ing given. I would prefer the words "rec-ognised and responsible". It is a simplematter not to approve of any organisation.Perhaps I would like to see everything inthe community of which I approve butother people may have different views.Different people approve of different thingsand consequently this Is not the rightstandard to use. For this reason, I wouldprefer the slightly more neutral words"recognised and responsible".

The Hon. S. T. J. Thompson: Who woulddecide whether It was recognised and re-sponsible?

The Hon. I. G. MEDCAIF: It would berecognised and responsible in the view ofthe Commissioner of Police and the gen-eral public.

The Hon. J. Dolan: I would agree withthat.

The Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: The generalpublic and the Commissioner of Policemust both come into this. It would berecognised by the general Public and be re-sponsible in the opinion of the commission-er. After all, the commissioner will be theadministering authority for the legislationand, in the final analysis, will decidewhether or not a body is responsible. Forthat matter he would also decide whetherit is recognised. The words I Prefer arenot quite as arbitrary as "approved". If abody can be shown as recognised and re-sponsible to the satisfaction of the com-missioner and subsequently, Perhaps, toa court this is a different matter from being

[Wednesday, 2 May. 1971 1259

approved because standards need notnecessarily be applied for an organisationto be approved. Approval varies from in-dividual to individual and everyone hasdifferent views. I have every confidencein the Commissioner of Police, particularlythe present one, but I believe that weshould choose a slightly more neutral termthan "approved". This is why I havesuggested "recognised and responsible".

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I suggest that thisclause should also be postponed to give themover of the amendment the opportunityto insert words to the effect that the com-missioner will have the authority to deter-mine whether an association is recognisedand responsible. We could then considerthe amendment at a later date and I amsure we would overcome any difficultieswhich may arise.

I move-That further consideration of the

clause be postponed.The Hon. F. R. WHITE: I draw the

attention of the mover to the wording ofthe proposed amendment.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The motion be-fore the Chair is that the clause be post-poned.

The Hon. F. Rt. WHITE: I was on my feetbefore the motion was put to the Chair.

The CHAIRMAN: The motion is thatclause 11 be postponed.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Mr. White roseto his feet to mention certain other wordsin the amendment which need alteration.This is quite separate from the referenceto the commissioner. Unless we make ourremarks now the mover will have noknowledge of the situation. Previously thewords "primary producer" were used andnow the words "farmer or grazier" appearin the amendment. Mr. Medcalf ought touse the words "primary producer".

The CHAIRMAN: I believe Mr. Medcalfhas got the message.

Motion put and passed.

Clause 12 put and passed.Clause 13: Delegation of the power to

issues licences and grant permits-The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTI': I have

three amendments on the notice paper inconnection with this clause. I move anamendment-

Page 8, lines 18 and 17-Delete thepassage "an air rifle, a shotgun, or".

I said when I spoke to the second readingthat the words seemed quite redundant.Without them, the clause would simplyread, "a licence or permit in respect of afirearm which is of a kind prescribed ... 1'The term "firearm" would cover shotgunsand air rifles-they would be prescribed inthe normal way. I consider the provision

would be less confusing if my amendmentis adopted, although I do not insist on thisparticular amendment.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: By way of ex-planation the inclusion of the words in thesubelause was for the purpose of clarifica-tion. Their removal would not lessen thepurpose of the provision but would achievelittle, because the commissioner will exer-cise his discretion, as he thinks fit, as todelegation of authority except in relationto a license or permit in respect of anyfirearm which is not an air rifle, a shot-gun, or a firearm of the kind prescribed,or tor any ammunition for such a firearm,or in respect of a firearm curio-authorityfor which must be delegated by way ofnotice in the Government Gazette.

The removal of the words would meanthat a person wishing to ascertain thedelegation of authority would need to referboth to the legislation and to the regula-tions for the sake of clarification. Ireferred to this in a previous comment.

The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTT: When Isaid I would not insist on the amendment,I was referring only to the first amend-ment on the notice paper, the purpose ofwhich is to remove the words "an air rifle,a shotgun, or" from suhclause (1). Sub-clause (2) is quite a different matter. Thecommissioner feels the situation would becomplicated by taking out the words butI feel it will be complicated by leavingthem in. The amendment to subeclause (2)is quite different and I do not want theMinister to be confused. I1 think he wasconfused when he mentioned the delega-tion of powver which I will come to later.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: Subclause (1)of clause 13 is surely a delegation of powerbY the commissioner. It makes tt easier forhim to appoint an officer to issue a licensefor an air rifle or shotgun. In the caseof certain types of firearms, the commis-sioner himself must make it known bynotice In the Government Gazette that hehas delegated the power to another officer.For this reason, it would be better left asIt is.

Amendment put and negatived.The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTT: I now come

to the second amendment on the noticepaper which concerns the delegation ofpower, To my mind, this is quite a differ-ent matter. Perhaps my amendment isnot worded correctly. To some extent Ithink Mr. Logan is correct. It may bebetter to leave in the words, "which is notan air rifle, a shot gun or".

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I point outthat the Committee has dealt with thatamendment.

The Hon. F. D. WILLMOTT: No, I dealtwith the deletion of words in subelause(1). 1 purposely said that I intend to goon with the amendment to subclause (2).

1260 COUNiCIL.]

The CHAIRMAN: I thought you weredealing with the first amendment.

The Hon, F, D. WILLMO'IT: For thesake of clarity it may be better for me tooutline the amendment I would like tomove. It is follows-

Page 8-Delete all words from andincluding the word "firearm" in line23, to and including the word "section"in line 26, and substitute the word" pistol".

I think Mr. Logan may be right, as I said,in his contention. I am concerned becauseof my third amendment by which I pro-pose to delete the word "firearm" and sub-stitute the word "pistol".

This is a delegation of power. The onlypersons who will be able to issue a license,as the clause stands, are the Commissionerof Police or an officer to whom the com-missioner has specifically delegated powerby notice in the Government Gazette.Nobody knows what firearms will be pre-scribed and nobody will know until theyare actually prescribed. People may beput to great inconvenience when it comesto obtaining a permit or license for a fire-arm. A person in Wyndham or anotherremote centre of Western Australia couldfind it necessary to go to a person in themetropolitan area, because of the noticein the Government Gazette. It is not likelythat people all over the State would bedelegated this power, because it 'woulddefeat the purpose.

Therefore, I believe the substitution ofthe word "pistol" for the word "firearm"Is the crux of the matter. I wish to makethat clear. I believe the substitutionshould be wade In two places-in lines 23and 27.

Perhaps Mr. Logan is right in regard tothe other words I1 was seeking to de-lete. It may be simpler to leave the wordsIn. I would lie to hear other opinions onthis matter; perhaps Mr. Logan may en-large on his comments.

I still feel that the provision should beconfined to a pistol because of the diffi-culty in obtaining a license for other fire-arms. At this stage we do not know whatfirearms will be prescribed. It will be verydifficult for people in outback areas toobtain a permit to purchase firearmsProbably a few people will be nominatedto issue the licenses in the large provincialtowns, but it Is unlikely that this numberwill be great because it would defeat thepurpose of the provision.

The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: I feel we shouldhave a good long look at the clause. AsMr. Wlllmott says, we do not know whatwill be prescribed as a firearm underclause 13 (1). We wili create a peculiarsituation if the firearms prescribed in sub-clauses (1) and (2) are different. I do

not know that the addition of the word"pistol" is the correct course to take. Theprovision may need redrafting.

In a State as vast as Western Australia.surely the commissioner in Perth andsomeone else who is nominated throughthe Government Gazette should not be theonly people who can issue licenses. Ibelieve we should postpone this clause forthe time being.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It seems obviousthat members would like to peruse thisclause more closely. I therefore move-

That the clause be postponed.Motion put and passed.Clause 14: Delegation generally-The Hon. F. 1). WILLMOrr: I raised a

point about this clause In my second read-ing speech. Again I am not Insistent aboutmy proposed amendment, although itseems to me that the addition of the words"that power" will Improve the clause. Onlooking at my remarks and the Minister'sremarks during the second reading debate,I feel he may be correct. However, I stillbelieve the additional words would clarifythe situation. I move-

Page 9, line 7-Insert after theword "Conumissioner" the words "thatpower".

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Although I feelthe words are unnecessary, I have no ob-jection to the amendment. if it clarifiesthe situation by repetition it Is quite inorder, I support the amendment.

Amendment put and passed.Clause, as amended, put and passed.Clause 15: FIrearm curios-The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I wish

to take the opportunity to thank theMinister for the comments he made andthe provisions in the Bill in regard to thecollection of firearms.

I would like to ask the Minister onequestion which is in regard to theweapons that are now under the controlof the department in Perth. Will it bepossible to return these to the collectorsunder the provisions of paragraph (d) ofsubelause (1)? 1 take It that the conmmis-sioner can exercise his authority In respectof these weapons,

The Ron. J. DOLAN: I could not givethe assurance at this time, although Ithink this will happen. I will make everyeffort to ensure the weapons are releasedin due course-under certain conditions,of course.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIh'FITHS: I havehere a letter from a gentleman In AlbanyIn regard to this provision. I have Justreceived the letter and I have not hadan opportunity to do much about It. I

1260

[Wednesday. 2 May. 19731 16

therefore bring this matter to the atten-tion of the Minister as he may be able toanswer some of the queries. This man isa collector of firearms, and part of hisletter reads as follows-

Following from the nature of thelicense envisaged, I believe that a gooddeal of clarification is necessary re-garding the method by which a col-lector can acquire firearms. If be hasto follow through a system of apply-ing for permission to purchase, hav-Ing the piece scrutinized, then havingit formally transferred to his licence,it will be an intolerable burden tothe serious collector.

Often the purchase of a collector'spiece must be a quick decision arisingout of a chance meeting or discovery,or the result of a sudden change ofheart in a previous owner. Unlessthis can be followed up Immediately,the opportunity to acquire, and per-haps save, an historic object can belost.

This man suggests that a collector of suchItems, suddenly confronted with a curio,has to make a quick decision about pur-chasing it. If he has to go to the troubleof having someone look at the gun andInform him at some future time whe-ther or not the permit will be approved,the sale could be lost and the saving of anhistorical weapon may fall through. Hesuggests that the collector of curios oughtto be licensed to collect them. He couldthen register a curio after purchase andhave it identified as belonging to him.

The Hon. J7. DOLAN: I believe this iscovered in paragraph (d). The commis-sioner is reasonable. A collector couldpurchase a curio-I suppose a certainamount of risk is involved-and then askthe commissioner to license it. I can as-sure the honourable member that thecommissioner is a reasonable man and un-less it was obvious someone was attemptingto do something illegal, I do not think anydifficulty would arise.

Clause put and passed.clause 16 and 17 put and passed.Clause 18: Licensing procedure-

The Hon. F. D. WULLMOTr: I have anamendment to this clause on the noticepaper. However, at this stage it Is notmy intention to move It.

Clause put and passed.Clause 19: Licensing offences-

The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALP: I desire tomove an amendment to insert the passage"of subsection (1)". 1 believe the omis-sion of the words Is a typographical orprinter's error, and perhaps it is not neces-sary for me to move the amendment.

However, I will move It to clarify the situ-ation. I move-

Page 14, line 13-Insert alter theparagraph designation "(c)" the pas-sage "of subsection (1)".

Amendment put and passed.The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I not-

ice that the penalty for not having alicense is very high. What frightens meis that no notice Is to be sent when thelicense is due for renewal. It Is certainlynot stated in the Bill. We have had theexample of a person allowing his realestate license to run out without realisingIt and then having difficulty when tryingto renew it. Could the Minister clarifythe position?

The Hon. J, DOLAN: When the licenseIs due for renewal a notice is posted outand if the person concerned chooses toignore it he will, of course, be in realtrouble,

The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: As long asthe practice is to be continued it is allright.

The Hon. J7. DOLAN: It is a continuingprocess.

The Hon. OLIVE ORIT'fTHS: I movean amendment-

Page 14. line 19-Add after the word"who" the word "knowingly".

Surely the person concerned must know-ingly sell, deliver, or dispose of a firearmto a person who is not a holder of a licensebefore such person commits an offence.My amendment will make the matterclearer and more just.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: MY advice Is thatthe amendment is undesirable. While itwill have little effect on subelause (2) (a)as it now stands, it would lessen the effectof subelause (2) (b). by allowing offendersto escape responsibility In the purchase ofunlicensed firearms. This would be par-ticularly so in the case of a person Uicensedto deal in firearms-the "onus being on theprosecution to establish that the purchaserknew he was dealing with a person notentitled to possess a firearm:, A most diffi-cult situation.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: Why isthe word "knowingly" placed where it is?Why is it placed after the words, "sells,delivers, disposes of", but before the words,"Permit possession to be taken of", etc.?

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: A person whosells a firearm can only do so to somebodywho has acquired a permit. He can onlydeliver it to a person who has acquired apernit and dispose of it to a person whohas acquired a permit. The word "know-ingly" provides a safeguard for the ownerof the firearm. Someone while shootingmight pick up the wrong gun and be

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LCOONOIL.]

apprehended and the owner may not know-ingly be aware his gun is missing. Theword "knowingly" provides the protectionnecessary and is in the correct position.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS,. I do notbelieve it is in the right position. I thinkmy suggestion is the right one, if we areinterested in justice for the people. I woulddraw the attention of the Minister to thelocation of the word "knowingly" in thecurrent Act. In the Bill the word "know-ingly", for some reason, is to be shifted.The Act in effect says it is an offenceif a person sells, delivers, or knowinglypermits possession to be taken or disposesof a firearm. The word d"knowingly" comesbefore the word "disposes" in the presentAct but the Bill seeks to shift it to theother side of the word "disposes"

The Hon. J. Dolan-. It does not put itwhere you want it, either in the old Actor in the new legislation.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: I knowthat, but I want to know the reason forshifting it.

The Hon. J. Dolan: They found it isbetter.

The Hon. CILIVE GRIFFITHS: Theycannot have done so because there hasbeen no opportunity to put it into effect.It may be suggested that it will be better,but I think my. suggestion Is better. APerson could unknowingly dispose of a fire-arm to someone who has no permit.

The I-on. R. Thompson: He must havea permit first.

The Hon OLIVE GRIFFITI-S: He mayhave obtained a permit illegally. There area number of reasons why the person con-cerned may unknowingly have committed abreach. Surely he must do so knowinglybefore he commits an offence.

The I-on. F. D. WILLMOTT: I agreewith Mr. Olive Griffiths because I do notthink it will have a terrible effect In regardto paragraph (b). If somebody knowinglypurchases a firearm or ammunition froma person who is not the holder of a permit-and this is the crux of the matter-hewill be informed quickly enough becausebefore the firearm can be purchased apermit must be obtained.

The Ron. A. F. Griffith*. The word"knowingly" does not apply to subolause(b).

The Hon. F. D. WIELLMO'IT: I was onlygoing on what the Minister said about ithaving a detrimental effect on paragraph(b),

The Hon. J. Dolan: It does not apply.The H-on. P. D. WHLLMOfl: In that

case I think Mr. Olive Griffiths is right.The Hon. J. DOLAN: I would like to

give an example of a tragic occurrence thathappened many years ago. Mr. MacKinnonwill be able to confirm this because I

referred the matter to him. It dealt withgetting a crayfish license for a young fel-low. The young man concerned had hisfather's rifle and he was some distancefrom the coast. He knowingly permittedpossession of that rifle to be given toanother young man who was with him.This young fellaw had a shot at a cleft inthe hill and in doing so he shot and killeda man who was walking along the beachwith his wife. He was penalised for 10 or1.1 years in his endeavours to pay themoney awarded by the court. He was notable to obtain a crayfish license, but whenI represented the matter to Mr. Mac-Kinnon he assured me it was most unusualand that he would -ee what he could do.I was most grateful, as was the youngfellow concerned.

The Hon. A. F, Griffith; But the word"knowingly" did not cause that man'sdownfall.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: No, but he knowinglyallowed the rifle to be in the possession ofthe other man.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHIS: I do notintend the word "knowingly" should dis-appear in connection with possession beingtaken of a firearm. I believe it is just andright that the things mentioned should beknowingly done. Surely we should notmake it an offence if somebody unknow-ingly allows these things to be done, par-ticularly if the person concerned legiti-miately believes he is entitled to sell thefirearm to the Individual in question. Insuch a case the man who bought the fire-arm should be penalised because he con-vinced the owner he was entitled to pur-chase it.

The Hon. F. R. WHITE: For the purposeof debate let us use the word "unknow-ingly". A person cannot unknowingly sellor deliver.

The Han. F. D. Willmott: Oh yes he can.The Han. R. Thompson: No he cannot;

you must read the whole clause.

The Hon. P. R. WHITE: But he couldknowingly allow possession to be taken ofa firearm. I believe the word "knowingly"is in the correct place.

The Hon. F. fl. WILLMOTT: We have toread the whole provision: that a person ora cardier knowingly delivers to someonewho is not the holder of a license or apermit. Such a person or carrier couldvery easily deliver a gun, not knowing thatthe recipient was not the holder of alicense. If he does that then under thisprovision he commits an offence. Theamendment would protect such a person orcarrier.

The Hon. R, THOMPSON: If we agree tothis proposition then we should turn to theprnvision in clause 19 (1) and also includethe word "knowingly".

(Wednesday, 2 May, 1973] 26

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: That is dif-ferent,

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What you aresaying is out of context and relates to thepossession of firearms under clause 15 (1)

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: Clause 19 (1)states--

Any person who possesses, sells, de-livers or disposes of, or purchases orotherwise acquires any firearm orammunition, not being a firearm ofthe kind referred to in paragraphs (a),(h) or (c) of section 15, and is notthe holder of a licence or permit underthis Act entitling him to do so commitsan offence unless the provisions of sec-tion 8 apply.

Mr. Olive Griffiths has given no qualifica-tion as to why the word "knowingly"should be deleted. A person cannot eitherknowingly or unknowingly sell firearms orammunition to anotber unless the latterproduced a license.

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: Suppose heproduces a permit which belongs to some-body else.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I could be inpossession of a driver's license belonging toanother person; and if I were to be pickedup on a speeding charge I could producethat license and claim I was that person.This provision applies to a genuine salewhere the dealer or vendor does not askfor the production of a permit. The posi-tion is covered adequately.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I am sur-prised to hear the Minister say that heis not prepared to allow a person toPresent mitigating circumnstanices; so any-one who sells, delivers or disposes of afirearm commits an offence. In regardto the Minister's point about taking thedriver's license of somebody else, if theMinister did that he would be immediatelycharged.

The Hon. R. Thompson: A person couldalso be charged with misrepresentationunder this provision.

The Honi. A. F. GRIFFITH: Surely it Isreasonable to allow a person to presentevidence of mitigating circumstances, andto explain to a court that he did not knowthe recipient did not have a permit.

The H-on. R. Thompson: It is difficultto obtain permits.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: That Is be-side the point. It seems the Minister Isnot prepared to allow a person to produceevidence in mitigation. Yet when theminister was on this side of the House hiegave me a blast about the same s9ort ofcircumstances.

The Hon. W. R. WITHRS: I supportthe views put forward by Mr. CliveOrLifths. If the Bill becomes an Act in

its present form we could have the situ-ation where an errand boy was asked todeliver a package, without his knowingwhat the package contained. The packagemight contain a rifle, in which event thatboy would be committing an offence ifthe recipient did not have a permit forthat rifle. I cannot see how the Ministercould allow such a situation to exist. Weshould insert the word "knowingly" atleast before the word "sells".

The Hon, R. Thompson: H-ow would thedelivery boy get a. gun?

The Hon. W. R. WITHIERS: Somebodyhas sold the rifle and asked the errandboy to deliver it.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: The purposeof this provision Is to prevent the sale,firstly, of unlicensed firearms and,secondly, the sale to unlicensed persons.Any person who gave a delivery boy a gunwould be covered by the permit.

The Hon. W. R. Withers: It could be anillegal weapon. What if the delivery boydoes not know that the person had givenhim a gun to deliver?

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: That Is cov-ered.

The Hon. W, R. Withers: Where?The Hon. R. THOMPSON: Because a

Permit has to be obtained before a guncan be sold.

The Hon. W. R. Withers: It might be anIllegal gun, and the boy might not knowit is a gun he is asked to deliver.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: The honour-able member astounds me. I have notheard of such a case.

The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: As I seethe position, it is an offence to sell, deliver,or dispose of a gun to a person not holdinga license. If a person buys a gun he hasto comply with stringent restrictions. Hehas to obtain a permit and Produce itbefore he can take possession of the gun.Then we come to the point of knowinglypermitting a sale or delivery. It is quitepossible for a person who has a gun not toknow that it had got into the possessionof someone else.

The Hon. F. R. WHITE: I would like tocontradict my previous statement. Mr.Syd Thompson and others have enmpha-sised the sale and delivery of firearms, butthis provision covers ammunition also. Icould be out shooting on my property witha friend, and he could have a rie Inrespect of which I assume he has a license.It may be the same type of rifle as mine.He could run out of bullets, but If I wereto give him some of my bullets then Iwould commit an offence because I wouldhave delivered to that friend some bullets.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHIS: Ratherthan give that friend some bullets, Mr.White could sell him a packet. Hence, he

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would unknowingly Bell the bullets, butunder this provision he would Commit anoffence and be liable to a fine of $200. toimprisonment for six months, or both.

During the course of my inquiries intothe Practice of common carriers I con-tacted Mayne Nickless and other reputabletransport firms to find out what they didwhen they carried firearms from the East-ern States. Some of them said they de-livered firearms from the Eastern Statesto Western Australia, but they also saidthey did not obtain permits for that pur-pose nor were they aware of the need todo so.

They Pointed out that on numerous oc-casions they transported parcels, withoutany idea of what the parcels contained.They said that frequently they broughtcartons of goods from the Eastern Stateswhich were completely sealed, and theydelivered these to shops which sold, amongother items, rifles. There are some in-stances where people unknowingly com-mit this offence. I believe in the causeof common justice being applied, and weshould agree to the deletion of the word.

The Ron. A. F. GRIFFIH: Would theMinister for Police consider that a letterbomb comes within the ambit of this legis-lation?

The Hon, J. Dolan: It would be coveredby other Acts.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: It couldbe regarded as a fire-arm. Would theMinister prosecute a mailman who de-livered a letter bomb?

The Hon. J. Dolan: That offencewould be covered by the Criminal Code,and the police would prosecute under thatC -' e

The Hon. A. 3F. GRIFF1TH: The Minis-ter should concede that the amendmentcovers the situation, and so allow a personwho is charged to produce evidence ofmitigating circumstances.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: The provision inthe present Act refers to selling and de-livering, and the provision includes theword "knowingly". This has been in forcesince 1931.

The H-on. W. R. Withers: It has not beenpicked up,

The Hon. J. DOLAN: It must have beenPicked up, because the word "disposing"was included. The subclause has been de-liberately worded that way, 'with that pur-pose in mind.

The Hion. A. F. GRD-FTH: Does theMinister mean to tell us that he wouldallow himself to go on record as sayingthat because something has been done for31 years-rIghtly or wrongly-it shouldnot be altered?

The Hon. J. Dolan: I never even impliedthat.

The Hon. A. P. GRTTr: The Minis-ter said It has been there for 31 years and,therefore, it should stay there.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: No, I said no suchthing. I said it has been there for 31years and when this was examined veryclosely by my officers a change was wade.The officers saw that "disposes" shouldbe included and they would not have madethe change had they not noticed it.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH:* I beg theMinister's pardon, but with due respect tohis officers I am not convinced that weshould take their word.

The Eon. J. Dolan: They are experts Intheir field, but we do not have to takethe word of anybody.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Are theyexperts in the law?

The Hon. J. Dolan: They go to theCrown Law Department for help In legalmatters.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH7-: I wasattached to the Crown Law Department fortoo long not to respect its officers, but theycan be as wrong as anybody else, includingthe Minister. I think it would be far bet-ter to give a person the benefit of thedoubt. That is all the amendment seeks todo, and I cannot understand the pigheaded-ness of the Minister regarding this matter.

The Hon. J. Dolan: I am not being pig-headed. Why cannot I say what I think?I appreciate the point of view of the Leaderof the Opposition.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: All right, theMinister is not pigheaded and, therefore,I feel he will give in a little.

The Hon. I. 0. MEDCALF: It seems itis necessary for me to point out that theword "knowingly" only refers to the word".permits" in its present context.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: We pointed thatout several times.

The Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: "Knowinglypermits" means, of course, that one knowsthat aL person is going to take possession.One knowingly permits possession to betaken. The word is used in the sense thatone is actively allowing possession, and notpassively allowing it to be given.

This provision is identical to the pro-vision contained in the 1931 Act. ThatAct only refers to "knowingly" permittingpossession to be taken, and not to "un-knowingly" disposing of. That is separatealtogether. The amendment proposed byMr. Olive Griffiths is entirely new andthere may be something to be said forthat. The Committee should appreciatethat this is a new amendment.

The Hon. L. A. Logan: It Is a differentprinciple altogether.

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[Wednesday. 2 May, 19731 1265

The Hion. 1. G. MEDCALF: The amend-ment is introducing the Principle that onemust knowingly sell or deliver or purchase,etc., to a person who is not the holder ofa license. It is a different principle andit is pretty complicated. In a way, theword "knowingly" is ambiguous and Ithink that has precipitated the discussionwhich has taken place. I think it wouldbe advisable if the Minister were to post-Pone this clause and obtain the advice ofthe Cron Law Department regarding theimplication of the word "knowingly".

The lion. P. R. WHITE: Mr. Medesifreferred to a person who, "knowinglysells". He must knowingly sell. If theword "knowingly" is Inserted in front ofthe word "sells" In line 20 it would read,"A person who knowingly sells to a personwho is not the holder of a permit". Theword "knowingly" would apply to thePerson who did not have the permit. So,two aspects apply to "knowingly".

The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I intendedto point out that there were two aspectsand that there is an ambiguity. In onesense, "knowingly sells" Is meaninglessbecause one cannot sell unless one knowswhat he is doing. But, if the wording isdeemed to be "knowingly sells to a personwho is not the holder of a license" thatis another aspect. This is where I see thenew principle introduced which was notcontained In the 1931 Act.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: If we insert theword "knowingly" after the word "who"we will allow mitigation under all circum-stances.

The Ron. I. G. MEDCALF: On every oc-casion the police will be required to provethat a person had knowledge that theother person was not the holder of alicense.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: At least, theperson charged can give evidence that hedid not knowingly do It.

The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: In the 1931Act "knowingly" simply refers to "permitspossession".

The Hon. CI VE GRIFFITHS: I amaware of the fact that by shifting theword "knowingly" I am making it apply tothe fact that a person is selling to anotherunlicensed Person. A person would know-ingly sell or deliver to an unlicensedperson. That is the emphasis on the wordand I am quite sure that It could not beinterpreted any other way. If the Ministerdecides to postpone this clause I want himto know that I am trying to place theemphasis of "knowingly" on knowingly sel-ling to unlicensed persons.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am quite readyto Postpone this clause and I assure Mr.Clive Griffiths that I will obtain a pull

of his comments, so that they can beexamined by the Crown Law Department.I move-

That further consideration of theclause be postponed.

Motion Put and Passed.Sitting suspended from 9.56 to 10.18 p.m.

Clause 20: Revocation. etc.-The Hon. V. J. FERRY: It will be ob-

served that I have on the notice papertwo amendments which are associated withthe clause. in view of what has transpiredduring the Committee stage in relation tothe other clauses, I do not propose toProceed with the first amendment becauseI do not believe it is now a reasonableProposition.

I move an amendment-Page 16. line 2-Delete the passage

"restrictions." and substitute the word"reasonable".

The purpose of the amendment Is to clarifythe situation in regard to the revocationof licenses in a reasonable way. I realisethe word "reasonable" can be troublesomeby way of interpretation. The effect of theamendment would be that paragraph (d)would then read-

(d) that the circumstances inwhich his approval under thisAct was given in relation toany person or matter nolonger prevail,

he may revoke any licence, permit orapproval relating thereto or may Im-Pose reasonable limitations or condi-tions thereon.

It seems to me that under the powers ofrevocation the commissioner may cancelpermits or licenses, and I do not disagreewith that. I seek to err a little on the sideof the permit or license holder, to ensurethere are reasonable reasons for any re-vocation.

T wish to test the feeling of the Commit-tee on this matter. r am endeavouring toensure that a permit or license holder willnot be unduly disadvantaged but will re-ceive a shade of benefit.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I feel that theamendment will not lessen the impact ofthe provisions of the clause. The words,"restrictions, limitations or conditions"are included in other parts of the Bill-forexample, clause 6. If! the honourable mem-ber feels that the word "reasonable"should be Included, I suggest that it shouldbe included before the word "restrictions",although I still cannot see that it is neces-sary because if the restrictions, limitations,or conditions are unreasonable they wouldnot stand up to an appeal.

The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I accept thesuggestion of the Leader of the House inthe spirit in which It was offered. I seek

1286 [COUNCIL.]

leave of the Committee to withdraw mxyamendment, and foreshadow that I willmove a further amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I move an

amendment-Page 18. line 2-Insert after thae

word "impose" the word "reasonable".Amendment put and passed.Clause, as amended, put and passed.Clause 21: Restrictions, limitations and

conditions--The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I do not pro-

pose to proceed with the amendmentsstanding in my name on the notice paper,in view of the treatment of similar com-plementary provisions in previous clauses.

Clause Put and passed.Clause 22: Appeals-The Hon. L. 0. MEDCALF: I move an

amendment-Page 16, lie 28-Insert after the

word "Commissioner" the words "in-cluding any restriction limitation orcondition imposed".

This clause provides the right of appealand states that a person aggrieved by adecision made by the commissioner mayappeal in writing upon receiving writtenadvice of the decision. My amendmentProposes that such a person may appealagainst a decision made by the commis-sioner, including any restriction, limita-tion, or condition imposed. This will en-sure that If he feels aggrieved about arestriction, limitation, or condition whichis imposed by the commissioner he willhave the right of appeal.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I have no objectionto the amendment.

Amendment put and passed.The Hon. J. DOLAN: I move an amend-

ment-Page 17., lines '7 to 10-Delete sub-

clause (3).When speaking earlier I mentioned thatI wanted an appellant to have the rightto carry his appeal as far as he considersnecessary, and not to make the decision ofthe magistrate final.

The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALP: I thank theMinister for agreeing to, and moving, thisamendment. I believe it is worth wleand I appreciate his attitude.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I can seethis amendment working in two ways. TheCommissioner of Police may carry appealsto higher courts, whereas a private personmay not be able to do so for financialreasons. I cannot see the necessity in amatter of this nature to go beyond theLocal Court. Mr. Medealf, as a lawyer,must have good reason for agreeing tothis amendment.

The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I appreciatethe point made by the Leader of theOpposition. It is true that either partywill have the right of appeal; but it wouldbe just as unfair to prevent the Commis-sioner of Police from having the right ofappeal as it would be to prevent a privatecitizen from having it. At present theyboth have the right of appeal.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Does the Acttake them beyond a magistrate?

The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: Yes. I be-lieve it is in the interests of the privatecitizen that we should agree to the amend-ment: and the cormissioner should havethe same rights as a private citizen.

Amendment put and passed.Clause, as amended, put and passed.Clause 23: General offences--The Hon. R. J. L. WILI AMS: MY

understanding is that a person can becommitted to an Inebriate or mental insti-tution but can still hold a license for afirearm in the same way as a driver'slicense is not necessarily forfeited. I re-quest the Minister to make inquiries toascertain whether some form of amendinglegislation should be introduced to enablethe automatic forfeiture of a firearmlicense of a person so committed.

The Hon. 3. DOLAN: It is not the fellowwho is intoxicated who Is running the risk,but the person who in those circumstancesknowingly permits possession of the fire-arm. However, I will make the Inquiryrequested and notify the honourable mem-ber of the result.

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The manmust knowingly do this and therefore hecould mitigate his own circumstances inthe same way we argued previously.

The Hon. J. Dolan: No.The Hon. F. D. WIL.LMOTT: I move

an amendment-Page 20, line 8-Add after the pass-

age "offence." the following passage-For the purposes of this subsec-tion, the holding of a permitissued under the Fauna Conserva-tion Act regulations is not con-sidered to be a reasonable excuse.

Members will recall that during mysecond reading speech I suggested weshould delete from subolause (10) thewords "Without reasonable excuse". Mem-bers will also recall that I said the pastoral-ists and grasiers' view was that, If thewords "without reasonable excuse" were toremain, a shooter could go onto any landregardless of what the landholder thought.We all know of the case which occurred inthe country. I will not mention any names,but a certain fellow in possession of afirearm terrorised the local residents. If oneof the locals desired to get his own firearmfrom his homestead some 60 miles or soaway he might not be in a position toobtain permission. in those circumstances

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[Wednesday, 2 May. 1973] 26

such a person would have a reasonable ex-cuse for carrying a firearm. On reflectionI1 consider that the amendment I havemoved Is preferable to the one I suggestedIn my second reading speech.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not think theamendment Is really necessary.

The Hon. F. D. Willmott: I think itwould make it quite clear to anyone tryinga case that the holding of a permit underthe regulations is not a reasonable excuse.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: If the honourablemember feels deeply about the matter Iwill not raise any objection.

Amendment put and passed.Clause, as amended, put and passed.Clauses 24 to 34 put and passed.Postponed clause 8: Exemptions from

licensing requirements--Further consideration of the clause was

Postponed after the following amendment,moved by The Hon. Olive Griffiths, hadbeen partly considered-

Page 6, lines 21 and 22-Insert afterthe word "Production" the passage

1or whilst travelling to or from thatland".

The CHAIRMAN: The question is thatthe amendment be agreed to.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I did not thinkwe were to deal with this tonight.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITH-S: Thealternative amendment proposed by theMinister has been studied and with thetnclusb~n of three further words in theMinister's amendment I am prepared toaccept it.

The CHAIRMAN: It will be necessaryfor Mr. Olive Griffiths to withdraw hisamendment first if the Committee intendsto proceed with the Minister's alternativeamendment.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFF'ITHS: I seekleave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.The Hon. J. DOLAN: I move an amend-

ment-Page 6-Delete paragraph (i) and

substitute the following-(i) by an employee of a primary

producer who, with the per-mission of his employer, hasin his Possession In any Placefor the purpose of destroy-Ing vermin on any land usedby the employer for the pur-poses of primary production afirearm belonging to the em-ployer, or who uses that fire-arm for that purpose on thatland:

The inclusion of the words "in any place"will cover the employee in transit betweenone property and another.

Amendment put and passed.

The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: I movean amendment-

Page 7, line 7-Delete the words"an approved" and substitue theword "a".

The purpose of my amendment is to leavethe construction and maintenance of arange to those running the club involved.On page 27 of the Bill the commisioner isgiven the power to make regulations con-cerning the construction of ranges.

If my amendment is agreed to the com-missioner will still be able to make regula-tions regarding the construction of theseranges, I think it is wrong that a clubshould have to get the approval of thecomimissioner.

The Hon. J. DOLAN: The amendmentsproposed by Mr. Clive Griffiths are unac-ceptable because they would remove fromthe commissioner the authority to approvestandards of ranges, clubs, and organisa-tions referred to in the Bill. That is mostundesirable.

The Bill provides the means by which theauthority for exemption under this sub-elauge is removed -from the four bodies de-fined in the present Act;, that is, theW.A.R.A.. the W.A.P.A., the W.A.S.B.R.A.,and registered gun clubs, and places theauthority with the commissioner It willalso permit the commissioner to exercisehis discretion in regard to any other clubor organisation which may be formed inthe future. I think that would come underthe category of the other clubs mentionedpreviously.

What may be considered properly con-structed or constituted by one body maynot necessarily be so in the opinion ofanother body. They may have conflicting.views.

The inclusion of the words "an ap-proved" and "other approved" in this sub-clause restricts the privilege of this exemp-tion to bona fte clubs and organisations.If there is no "approving" body there is noset standard with which they can complyand without these words the exemptionwould be far too wide. Consequently, Ihave to oppose the amendment.

The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: The Minister has referred to other amendmentswhich I have on the notice paper but, forthe moment, I am concerned with my firsthmendment. The Minister said that arange constructed by one club might notbe acceptable to another club. I havealready pointed out that the commissionerhas p~owers to Make regulations in regardto the construction of ranges. Ranges couldnot be constructed indiscriminately so thesituation mentioned by the Minister wouldnot arise.

The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I cannotagree with the Proposed amendment at all.In the plumbing trade we have regulations,

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but despite those regulations work still hasto be approved. I think the same thingcould apply in respect of this measure.

The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: The Minis-ter said that different organisations mighthave different standards. I would paintout that the commissioner himself will notcarry out the inspections of the sites.Surely he will delegate the authority tothe local policeman.

The Hon. J. Dolan;, The commissionerwould advise him.

The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: If it is Pos-sible for the clubs to have different stan-dards we could use a similar argument andsay that the Policemen will have differentjudgment standards. I support the amend-ment.

The Hon. T. 0. PERRY: I am opposed tothe suggested amendment, Surely, cer-tain ;standards must be set. The NationalRifle Association has a standard andInspectors visit the rifle ranges. Standardshave to be set for pistol clubs and smallbore rifle clubs.

Amendment put and negatived.The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: I move

an amendment-Page 7, line 11-Delete the words

"an approved" and substitute thewords "a Properly constituted".

I intend to refer also, to my next amrend-ment. It seems to me that a Properlyconstituted club or Organisation ought tobe able to make its own decisions and carryout its own functions without having to getthe approval of the Commissioner of Police.

We are virtually saying that the clubcannot exist unless the commissioner ap-proves of the club. I cannot go along withthat. It should be perfectly all right forit to be a properly constituted club orOrganisation,

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not want tocover the same ground. I oppose theamendment for exactly the same reasonsI gave in respect of the removal of theword "approved" earlier.

Amendment put and negatived.Clause, as amended, Put and passed.Postponed clause 11: Restriction on

Commissioner's discretion-The CHAIRMAN: The further consider-

ation of the clause was postponed afterthe following amendment, moved by TheHon. 1. G. Medealf, had been partiallyconsidered-

Page 8, line 4-Add after the word"relates" the following words "pro-vided however that membership bysuch a person of a recognized associa-tion of shooters or gun club or engage-ment in agricultural industry as afarmer or grazier shall be deemed tobe a sufficiently good reason".

The Hon. I. G. MEDCALP: Copies of thenew amendment I1 propose to move havebeen circulated.

The CHAIRMAN: You must withdrawthe previous one.

The Hon. I. G, MEDCALF: I ask leaveto withdraw the amendment on the noticepaper.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.The Hon. I. Q. MEDCALF: I hope suffi-

cient copies of the amendment are avail-able to members. The new amendmentcontains some slight, but important, alter-ations In the wording of the amendmentwhich Is on the notice paper.

I will emphasise what the amendmentsare by saying that it is now suggested thata sufficient reason for the commissionerto grant a license would be membership ofa properly constituted, recognised, andresponsible association of shooters or gunclub, or engagement in the agriculturalindustry as a primary producer-whichmessage I caught on the ether.

There is another slight alteration whichwill improve the amendment; namely, toadd after the word "agricultural" thewords "or pastoral". Sometimes peoplebecome very technical and say that if aperson is not actually tilling the soil andgrazing cattle he Is niot in the agriculturalindustry. The wording would be quite clearif we make it, "agricultural or pastoralindustry". I move an amendment-

Page 8, line 4-Add after the word"relates" the following words-

provided however that member-ship by such a person of a proper-ly constituted recognised andresponsible association of shootersor gun club or engagement inagricultural industry as a primaryproducer shall for the purposes ofthis section be deemed to be asufficiently, good reason.

The Hon. R, THOMPSON: When anamendment to the existing legislation waslast before the Chamber I related the caseof a person who had come to me. He hadtendered, through the Police Department,to buy a high-powered rifle. In fact, it wasa special high projectile rifle and he wasthe successful tenderer. When he madeapplication for a license the Pollee Depart-ment refused him although he had ten-dered through the department. A permitwas not required because he had put in atender. The Police Department would notgive him possession of the rifle because Itwould not give him a license. He saidthat he was a member of a reputableshooting association and, indeed, he was.

If the amendment is passed I think wewould find that licenses would not be re-fused for high-powered rifles provided theperson was a member of a properly con-stituted, recognised and responsible asso-ciation of shooters or gun club. I do not

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(Wednesday, 2 May. 19'73J 1269

know whether or not the Commissioner ofPolice would deal with this on the basis ofacting in the public interest.

The Hon. F. D. Wlllmott: Is the personfit to hold a license?

The Hon. Rt. THOMPSON: He is fit tobold a license and can have one for anordinary .22. I think all members of thecommittee are acquainted with the situa-tion.

The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What was thereason for the police not giving the mana license?

The Hon. Rt. THOMPSON: He was asporting shooter.

The Hon. F. D. Willlnott: That Is not areason for refusing a license.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: It is a rea-son.

The Hon. J. Dolan: He already had one.

The Hon. ft. THOMPSON: He alreadyhad a gun. E'ven a professional kangarooshooter is allowed to have only one high-powered rifle. This has been the situationfor probably the last 15 or 20 years.

The Hon. Cive Griffiths: Did you tryto get the man a license?

The Hon. Rt. THOMPSON: It was anexercise, as far as I was concerned, andI made representations to find out thereasons. When I learnt them I said thatI did not think he should have the gun.

The Hon. I. G. Medcalf: What were thereasons?

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: The reasonswere that a high-powered rifle should notbe used by people for varmint shooting, asit is called-that is, shooting crows andrabbits--because a high Projectile rifle isa dangerous weapon. They are in linewith the guns used by kangaroo shooters.The 20/25 is possibly not as high poweredas a kangaroo shooter's rifle.

I ask whether Mr. Medcalf considersthat anyone who was a member of a clubwould be able to buy one of these highprojectile rifles under this amendment.

The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Surelythat type of gun is excluded under theprevious clause.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I am notcriticising the amendment. I am askingwhether that is the ease. If so, I think weshould have another look at it. I havebeen a shooter for many years and I thinkit would be extremely dangerous to givelicenses for no good reason. There is nogood reason for a sporting shooter want-ing one of these high-powered rifles.

The Hon. W. Rt. Withers: Where arethese high-powered rifles mentioned?

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: They are notmentioned.

The Hon. W. R. Withers: You are refer-ring to them.

The Hon. P. D. Willmott: I think this Iscovered in clause 6.

The Hon. Rt. THOMPSON: They can beexcluded-

The Hon. F. D. Willxnott: Under clause6.

The Hon. R. THOMPSON: That is right.The Hon. F. D. Wllmott: You have COM-

plete control, then.The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I do not

know whether they could be excluded ifthis amendment were passed. I would likethe Minister in charge of the Bill to lookat it.

The Hon. 1. 0. MEDGAL?: I1 have nodoubt about this matter because ofthe passage of clause 6 in its original form.it will be recalled that clause 6 was notamended and has been left in its originalform. It gives the Governor, on the recom-mendation of the commissioner, the powerto prohibit the use of any firearm or am-munition, either-

(a) absolutely; or(b) except upon and subject to such

conditions, restrictions, and limi-tations for such purpose or pur-poses, and In such place or places,as the Governor considers desir-able in the public interest,

having regard to the especial poten-tially dangerous nature of that kindof firearm or ammunition and the needto exercise special precautions in rela-tion thereto.

The Hon. L. A. Logan: That is onlyafter the regulation has been made. It canonly be done by regulation.

The Hon. I. G. MVEDCALF: That is so.That can be done immediately by regula-tion. Nevertheless, clause 6 gives the com-missioner the power to make regulationsin relation to any type of firearm at all.

To answer the Minister's question, I ima-gine that if the commissioner considered aparticular high-powered rifle to be espe-cially dangerous, he would either prohibitit absolutely or make regulations whichprescribed conditions, restrictions, andlimitations, the purpose or purposes, andthe place or places where it could be used,and he would tie it up. I do not thinkthe commissioner can have any doubtabout his Power under clause 6. That isthe first power the commissioner has--the power to prohibit the use of any rifleor to make it available virtually on anyconditions he thinks fit; and that is notsubject to appeal.

Secondly, under clause 7, before the com-missioner grants a license in an individualcase he must decide, firstly, that it is de-sirable in the Public interest that he shouldgrant it; and secondly, that the person is

2270 (ASSEMBLY.]

fit to hold the license, Finally, he has todecide that the person has a good reasonfor wanting the license.

I say the good reason shall be that theperson is a member of a properly consti-tuted, recognised, and responsible associa-tion. The commissioner himself mustrecognise the association as being properlyconstituted-whether it is incorporated orwhether it has a president, a secretary, andoffice bearers, and properly conducts itsaffairs. In addition, he must make the de-cision as to whether or not the associationis responsible, and clearly he will not makethat decision lightly. He will decide abody is responsible only If it conductsproper training courses for its members-presumably at an approved range-andobserves various precautions as to thesafety aspects, the type of member it en-courages, and so on.

The Hon. R. Thompson: It might not beon a range.

The Hon, 1. G. MEDCALF: I am onlyusing that as an instance. It is not for meto say what the commissioner would do,but I believe he would take those factorsInto consideration in deciding whether abody was resnonsible. If the commissionerwere not satisfied, he would say it was nota responsible association and did not comewithin the meaning of the legislation,

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think this isanother aspect which could be referred tothe Crown Law Department for an opinionand brought back with the other matter,instead of perservering with it at thisstage. If the honourable member is agree-able, It can be debated tomorrow.

ProgressProgress reported and leave given to

sit again, on motion by The Hon. J. Doian(Leader of the House).

House adjourned at 11.08 pm.

Wednesday, the 2nd May, 1973

The SPEAKER (Mr. Norton) took theChair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTIONS (25):- ON NOTICE1. TRAFFICAccidents, 197@ to 1973: Hospital

AdmissionsMr. NALDER, to the Minister forWorks:

On page 796 of HGansard he stated"that as a result of studies ofaccident cases made at the RoyalPerth Hospital it has been found

2.

that the majority of people in-volved in accidents have records ofother misdemeanours". How doeshe reconcile his answer to myquestion 9 parts (2) and (3), onTuesday, 16th April, in which hestated "this information is notavailable"?

Mr. JAMIESON replied:The statement I made on 10thApril was based on informationsupplied to mae by medical Person-nel when I had under considera-tion the drafting of traffic safetylegislation. Such personnel advisedme that statistics obtained fromoverseas had indicated that themajority of people involved Inaccidents had records of othermisdemeanours, and that an un-official check made locally Indi-cated that a similar situation ap-peared to apply here.The Acts Amendment (RoadSafety and Traffic) Bill will, whenit becomes law, enable the Grov-ernment to go deeper Into thisaspect of the road toll.

MEATMEAIJsupplies

Mr. E. H. M. LEWIS, to the Ministerfor Agriculture:(1) (a) What tonnage of meatmneal ex

Midland abattoirs has beenexported since 1st January,1973:

(b) what was the price per tonnet to the works?

(2) (a) What tonnage was disposed oflocally; and

(b) at what price net to theworks?

(3) Is there a shortage, and, if so, onwhat basis is it being distributed,i.e., quotas, dataI orders, etc.?

(4) Will he take steps to ensure thatsufficient supplies arc madeavailable to meet local demand?

Mr. Davies (f or Mr. H. D. EVANS)replied:(1) (a) 1,500 tons.

(b) Export meatmeal prices rangebetween $183.00 and $193.00per ton ex works.

(2) (a) 2,557 tons.(b) 1/1/73 to 11/2/73 - $100.00

per ton ex works In bags.12/2/73 to date. - $115.00 perton ex works in bags.

(3) There is a shortage at the presenttime due to a reduction in theslaughtering of beef and sheep.Local meatmeal Is being distri-buted to regular clients on a prorata basis.

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